Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 37 | |
From: Jan 30, 1999 |
To: Feb 14, 1999 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 21:56:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Question for Mel and op Message: For me, Maharaji is so important. Knowledge is only four techniques. I can understand the relationship between him and Knowledge with this example of drinking water. If I am thirsty, I go to the source of water, where there are four pipelines of drinking water, which are connected to a water tank. I turn the first pipeline on and water comes out and I quench my thirst. I do the same with the second, third and fourth pipelines. What enables me to quench my thirst is that those pipelines have been connected to the tank, if somebody has disconnected the pipelines from the tank, nobody can quench his thirst. Knowledge is only the means, and it is Maharaji who provides the connection.. That connection should always be there, so that we can quench our thirst. To maintain that connection we can stay in touch, participate and practice, which is his request to us. Do you guys endorse this view? It's from a post by some Indian premie. Sounds pretty much like she's saying Maharaji has some psecial connection to the 'water' of spritual satisfaction and that without his particular 'connection' that water just ain't there for the asking. Do you agree? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:02:58 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Question for Mel and op Message: Jim I agree with her sentiment about likening Knowledge to water and quenching thirst, I have thought about it in my own life in those terms, and I would also agree that, for me, Maharaji is the one that provided me with the connection. I think, Jim, that the key words here (both for me and her) are 'for me', in other words, she is stating her opinion (no doubt based on her experience). Where our opinions may differ is that I cannot state that 'this is the only way' (ie. the only path to salvation) as is implied in her statement. Where do I stand on the issue ...? Well, there's a saying that there are 'many paths that lead to God'. Whether there are or not I cannot say, I guess I'd have to walk each one to see where they led, but I would give that saying the benefit of the doubt. However, there may be many paths, but I cannot walk them simultaneously (only having one body) and if I started up each one and then turned back and tried another one, then I would never reach the destination. So if I find a path and it seems to work (for me), then I stick with it and, hopefully, reach my destination. This doesn't necessarily mean that others would not reach the same destination by other means, and I think that it is important to respect another person's choice of path. (ie religion, faith or nothing) By the same token, I would expect respect from people for my choice. I think RESPECT is the key word here, and respect applies when we cannot understand what motivates another person but trust them and give them the benefit of the doubt. I made my choice a long time ago and my experience over the years tells me that this choice was the correct one (for me!) and, as I have said in other posts, Maharaji has played a part in it. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 09:18:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Okay, Mel, follow me a bit Message: Indian premie:Knowledge is only the means, and it is Maharaji who provides the connection.. That connection should always be there, so that we can quench our thirst. To maintain that connection we can stay in touch, participate and practice, which is his request to us. Mel: I think, Jim, that the key words here (both for me and her) are 'for me', in other words, she is stating her opinion (no doubt based on her experience). Where our opinions may differ is that I cannot state that 'this is the only way' (ie. the only path to salvation) as is implied in her statement. Where do I stand on the issue ...? Well, there's a saying that there are 'many paths that lead to God'. Mel, what you've got happening here is a serious discrepency. You think 'many paths lead to God' and your premie friend in India thinks that only Maharaji can get you where you want to go. Fine, no problem. That's what guru's are for, right? Why not ask Maharaji? The problem is Maharaji cannot now, nor will he ever again be able to, entertain these basic questions again. He's said too many different things, so much of it so contradictory, that that's how you've got premies believing all sorts of things to begin with. All of you can point to a whole selection of m quotes to back up what you might happen to think no matter how inconsistent. If m starts taking uncontrolled questions he'll immediately embarrass himself on the horns of countless paradoxes and impossibly confused statements. You weren't around a couple of years ago when Ray and Mili had their own premie conversation board (premie.org). No sooner had it gotten started before premies started arguing with each other about whether or not m was the Lord. The believers thought it shameful for any premie to deny it. The unbelievers thought it terrible for anyoen to claim any such thing. That's what gives m's critics the grounds for calling him a cult leader, after all, right? How unfair! Really, Mel, it was a joke. Like a scene form 'Life of Brian'. That's why, I believe, the ELKies haven't started up their 'conversations' section. They simply can't allow uncontrolled discussion between premies. I mean, imagine where a conversation between you and this premie might lead. And what if a bunch of other premies jumped in? We're talking major confusion, Mel. Again, m could clear it up with a few simple statements. But then again, he can't because he's already said so much. Sweet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 05:28:37 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Okay, Mel, follow me a bit Message: Mel, what you've got happening here is a serious discrepency. Jim, obviously this may appear to you as a 'serious discrepancy' if looked at from an intellectual or philosophical perspective. but I would see it more as a difference of opinion, and that is really all it is ....opinion. Neither view as to 'who Maharaji is' can be proved or disproved, and premies can get caught up in 'theological debate' very much like Christians who still vigourously debate the Divinity of Christ. I think the important thing is to stay out of these 'contentious' issues and try to sincerely persue the practice of Knowledge to find out if there is any intrinsic value or benefit in my life. So any 'gratitude' that I have for Maharaji would not be based on his Divinity (or lack of it), but on the experience that comes from the quality that I have experienced from Knowledge. This moves into the deeply personal area and even trying to talking about it, especially to people who may feel hostile, seems to cheapen it somehow. What amazes me on this site is that, generally speaking, most contributors are extremely focussed on Maharaji, albeit in a negative way, and the 'jilted' love finds enormous expression here. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:22:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Amusing cowardice Message: Mel, What amazes ME is how you'll avoid anything I say that you find challenging. My point, as you well know, was that m himself could and should clear up these 'differences of opinion'. Failing to do so leaves the premies unable to even talk with one another! Forget it, Mel. I don't want your response. You have none and you lack the honesty to say so. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:22:05 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Jim's amusing cowardice Message: You have none and you lack the honesty to say so... Jim You, and other readers here know very well that I have responded to you openly and honestly as I can on the matters that you have raised, so your claim relating to my 'lack of honesty' is insulting and very 'unsporting' of you. Jim, although we seem disagree on pretty much everything, I don't question your basic integrity. Why should you question mine? When you get an honest answer that makes sense, but you don't agree with and can't really argue against, it seems you don't want to debate anymore. The fact is Jim, I DO have responses, you just don't want to hear them, maybe too 'politically incorrect' for this site and your ears! Is it possible to agree to disgree? Or is even that an admission of defeat for you? Too humbling maybe? Never mind, Jim, I won't put you through that kind of public humiliation. Regards Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 11:16:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Give it up, Mel Message: Mel, Please, let's stop this. There's nothing the least bit open or honest about anything you write here. No, you did NOT give ne an honest answer but what's new. Plus, I'm getting tired of this charade. I'm tired of you, Mel. Face it, you've got a guru who let's some of his followers build their lives on the premise that he's god. If he IS god that's fine but if he's not, as you've maintained, he's one major predator. Please don't respond. Like I say, I'm tired of you. This isn't rela discussion. I don't know what it is. It's stupid. It's stupid for me to talk to people like you. Just a big waste of time. So, like I say, let's just quit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 08:36:10 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: I WON AGAINST JIM ... Message: but he's lucky HE'S not in the minority here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:02:52 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I WON AGAINST JIM ... Message: 'but he's lucky HE'S not in the minority here.' What a pity you're stuck in duality Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:50:35 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel and snakelike mammals. Message: Mel: This moves into the deeply personal area and even trying to talking about it, especially to people who may feel hostile, seems to cheapen it somehow. Well, that's a unique perspective! Seems a tacit admission that Knowledge is not valuable enough to warrant propagation, or to mount a real defense or justification for the 'movement.' I must say that this is a far cry from anything that would have attracted me in the 70s. You are a weasel... no offense. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:38:05 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Okay, Mel, follow me a bit Message: What amazes me on this site is that, generally speaking, most contributors are extremely focussed on Maharaji, albeit in a negative way, and the 'jilted' love finds enormous expression here. hi Mel I have thought about this. I first posted here last year because I had been royally fucked by a premie I trusted. I kept posting because, as I read, I saw the dynamics that would cause such a thing to happen, both my role and the other persons. Now it's for fun and to keep in touch, see what's happening. The truth is, I always cared much more about the potential for doing good, for the community and friends and for the social aspect. And even the meditation at one point i my life. I don't think M himself ever was that important to me and certainly isn't now. ex-premie.org is interesting to me. But not for the reason you imply. I hope he does apologize or slink away and leave people alone, but as for my personal life, he means very little to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 21:50:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Uh oh!! - ELK suggestion box? Message: Paola & Marcello Nigro Potenza, Italy Video events In a simple and non-critical way, we would like to express our opinon about the excessive detachment at video events. It sometimes feels like people are afraid to establish any kind of relationship amongst themselves. Perhaps what can be seen as coldness does not encourage sharing and enthusiasm. You know, Paola and Marcello (what beautiful names you Italians sometimes have!), this kind of 'expression' is certainly NOT what they're looking for over on ELK. Do you think Maharaji would have given his imprimatur to the site if he thought premies would simply 'vomit' their 'negativity' there like this? Mind you, I personally am grateful (to borrow a term) for your comment. I was just beginning to pine for the good times I must be missing at these wonderfully-titled 'happenings'. See, I've never really been to a video event before. But, somehow, you've reminded me that they're probably not quite as much fun as my imagination said. Shucks, the mind sure is tricky, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 12:35:17 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: I just found a really neat, information and idea rich website called the Global Ideas Bank Global Ideas Bank They have lots and lots of ideas on various aspects of 'spirituality' in this section: Ideas on Spirituality What caught my eye this morning was an article in this spirituality section by famed psychologist Arthur Deikman called: Cult Behavior - A test. Deikman maintains that cultic thought flowers in all sorts of social contexts. From the article: .......Intellectuals in particular, who are trained not to be caught off balance by any idea, may find the concepts of cult psychology overly familiar and yet continue with their own cult behaviour and be as ignorant of it as the most ardent of cult members. If you still feel immune from cult influence, I can offer a checklist of everyday behaviours that you may recognise all too well: 1. Speaking of adversaries or outsiders ( e.g., conservatives, liberals, yuppies, blue-collar, rich, poor) as if they were all the same; characterising them by negative traits only; attributing unflattering motives to them but not to yourself. 2. Lacking interest and information concerning the actual statements and actions of opponents or outsiders. 3. Failing to consider the possible validity of an adversary's point of view. 4. Not taking a critical look at one's own position. 5. Disapproving or rejecting a member of one's group for departing from the group position, devaluing the dissident, regarding him or her as an annoyance or a problem. 6. Feeling self-righteous. Here is the original article: Cult behavior - a test Lots more good articles at the global ideas bank site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 14:32:11 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: bobby Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: Hi Bobby, Hope you're feeling and doing well. A very interesting post, your's. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that you're suggesting that many ex-premies are acting in a cultish manner. I disagree. I think what differentiates us from people who are actually in a cult is that we were in a cult. I don't think we've traded in one cult for another as you seem to be suggesting. I, myself, am just interested in my breakaway, my mental liberation from Maharaji's cult. For nearly my entire adult life, I've leaned heavily on Maharaji, without doubt, as being the living Christ. To speak negatively and derogatorilly of the Big M is basically a tactic towards achieving liberation. Before this forum, I would never even think poorly of Maharaji, let alone speak out in that manner. While I find it supportive that there are others who are coming out of the closet about Big M the same as I am, I am not interested in finding any kind of reward or promised goal as people who actually are in a cult are. As an ex-premie, I don't think of myself as being a member of a group who has privileged access to the promised land as cult members generally do. As an ex-premie, I am merely in recovery from a cult. I have no desire to join another one, nor is anyone at ex-premie.org enticing me to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 14:37:45 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: And one other thing, Jerry Message: Jerry: We don't accept ANY single individual as the be-all, end-all authority on any issue we discuss. In fact, as you and I have proven (on more than a single occasion), about the ONLY THING that WE ALL agree on is that M is a fraud and a LIAR! Doesn't exactly make us a cult, now does it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:04:36 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike/Jerry/Bobby Subject: Cultic thot vs. human nature Message: It could be that Bobby was saying something between the lines, but I think what he said is important for all human beings to consider and it has to do with being open minded, and not lumping people automatically into categories. I think we all have that tendency.. A lot of it is unconcious, for example, I am very uncomfortable with affluent people. A lot of the families at my daughter's school are filthy rich and they are great people, shop at K-Mart, put their pants on one leg at a time. It's my own hang-up that I feel uncomfortable around them and it's unfair of me to lump them in a category. It actually makes me look like the one who is obsessed with money that I focus on it so much. I wouldn't say that this human tendency to make negative judgments is 'cultic thinking' though, Bobby. That is taking it too far and in my opinion, minimizes the danger of true cult thinking. I don't think it's quite the same. Hope you are well Bobby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:41:49 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: Cultic thot vs. human nature Message: It could be that Bobby was saying something between the lines, but I think what he said is important for all human beings to consider and it has to do with being open minded, and not lumping people automatically into categories. I think we all have that tendency.. Thank you Helen, that's more what I meant..... I consider a lot of what is said on this forum. Sometimes I have reacted and 'jumped the gun' on statements people have made. Lately I'm interested in just sitting more with what is said and not reacting or getting into arguments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:38:02 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Mike Subject: And one other thing, Jerry Message: As with Jerry, I suggest you read the article Mike. You said: WE ALL agree on is that M is a fraud and a LIAR! I don't agree with the tone of that statement and I don't believe at all that ex-premies here believe as such. Personally I'm not sure how deliberate the actions of Maharaji are. I don't consider him a spiritual master but wouldn't characterize him as a fraud and liar, at least not with the passion that you have about it. Mike, you have come to conclusions in your life about your involvement with Maharaji. I've certainly not come to the same conclusions. Some areas about my involvement with Maharaji are inconclusive and I think that is just fine. I agree with SHP and others who state that we all have our own timing. We all have our own perspectives as well. As I have said repeatedly here, I value what I experienced and have no regrets. I know several people I highly value who also have no regrets and feel they have benefitted from knowledge. Some are still involved, some not. I also know others who I value who have anger about Maharaji in one form or another. To me, there are frauds and liars aplenty in our society. They include all sorts of folks. Some of the frauds and liars who have hurt me considerably more than Maharaji in my life include some personal acquaintances, several businessmen, and some politicians. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:00:00 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Bobby Subject: To: bobby Message: Bobby: When I said, 'we', I was referring to the ex's, in particular. But that's not really important, what is important is this: Certain individuals (of late) have tried to say that this forum is a cult. Basically, they don't know the definition of the term 'cult' nor have they investigated any authoritative anti-cult sites that are manned by some experts in this field. If they had, they couldn't come to the conclusion that this forum is a cult or even closely related to cult behaviors. Bias IS ONE of those behaviors, but bias is also a behavior displayed by those that have no cult affiliation, whatsoever. Encouraging free-think isn't a cult behavior. Encouraging THOUGHT isn't a cult behavior. In fact, those two behaviors are decidedly ANTI-CULT! In their tirades, these premies have said that WE ALL THINK ALIKE. I was taking issue with THAT PARTICULAR statement, when I said that about the 'only thing we agree on is M being a liar, etc, etc.' BY YOUR STATEMENT, Bobby, you planted another nail in the 'forum is a cult' coffin. How did you do it? Simple... YOU even disagreed with ME on this very fundamental issue (e.g. M is a liar). Yet, you DO claim to be an ex. That was my whole point; we (most on this forum) don't agree on much at all; now it appears there is some disagreement concerning the fraud, himself. Can't be a cult and have free-think.... THANKS Bobby, you very deftly helped me make my point in a way that I couldn't have planned better.... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:17:20 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Mike Subject: I agree Message: I agree with you Mike. We certainly don't agree on lots of things and so we are not a cult here on the ex-forum. I would agree that there is some cultic behavior amongst premies. There were always behaviors that rubbed me the wrong way, and now that I think about it, I would characterize some of these distasteful behaviors as examples of cultic thinking. However, I would argue that several of the premies I personally know and love are anything but cult-like. They are highly individual, intelligent and mature people, more so than many other friends and acquaintances. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:13:19 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: Jerry Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: I guess I didn't bring out enough of the article I had read in my post. My post wasn't really directed as a critique on the cult of maharaji or what some may consider as 'the cult of ex-premie' per se. I thought the article brought up some interesting perspectives on the thought patterns and biases that are present on much more general levels, whether premie, ex-premie, or someone who was not associated with Maharaji at all. The operative word here is 'bias'. It is apparent to me that there is a great deal of bias in the expressions that happen on this forum. I also take for granted that there is a great deal of bias in the premie world. I suggest it is true our brains are hard-wired for bias and that this bias is a great deal stronger than most of us are aware. Did you read the article? It's not that big an article and you might find some of the implications really interesting. It actually involves a small 'test'. -------------------------------------- Thanks for asking about my health. Unfortunately the situation is not good. This last week has been especially difficult. The cancer has returned and is getting worse. I was trying to get into a clinical trial and was unable to because of where this cancer is located in my throat. Looks like I'm gonna have to go for further chemotherapy and radiation and maybe surgery. Ugh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:17:22 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: bobby Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: Hang in there, bobby, we're (patty and I) pullin' for ya. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:20:30 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bobby Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: Sorry to hear that you have to go for radiation & chemo and possibly surgery. I hope you are getting some support from others going through this. WOrking on the cancer study, I talk to a lot of women with cancer who say that support groups and writing poetry have helped them. I hope you have moments of peace & strength, Bobby, in the midst of the whirlwind Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:42:06 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: bobby Subject: Get Well, bobby Message: Bobby: As you can probably tell, we care... Hang in there, no matter what you've got to do, just do it and hang in! On the other matter: Bias may be a valid cult signature, but by itself it isn't the defining behavior of a cult or cult mindset. There are quite a number of anti-cult sites on the internet. If you check out a few more of them, I think you'll find a very common thread that runs through them all (e.g. certain requirements to earn cult status). Bias is a sign, not one of the requirements. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:55:55 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Mike Subject: Get Well, bobby Message: Gerry, Helen and Mike and others: Thanks for the kind thoughts. They mean a lot to me. Last week was a whirlwind indeed. It began with me raising hell trying to get insurance coverage to do the clinical trial. The clinical trial represented a way to 'buy time' so that I could really heal this situation that I see is happening physically and emotionally and spiritually. After a lot of work, I was turned down by the insurance company. I then called my state senator and other influential people. The next morning I had coverage. The big disappointment came after seeing the doctors involved in the clinical trial. I was a bit surprised to learn that the cancer was further progressed than I had thought. It's running down my throat. Consequently the doctors would not be able to access some tumors for the purposes of the study. They suggested I waste no time in getting conventional treatment. Since diagnosis last May I have attempted to find my healing at the least cost to me. I thought I had licked the cancer last fall after the doctors told me they could find no trace. In November the symptoms started reappearing and now they are very present. My plan now is that I'm going to consult with the best doctors I can get with the insurance I have. Looks like I'm going to have to do the chemo and radiation and maybe surgery. They're going to damage me, to what extent I don't know. My body damage represents a kind of death, but I want to live. I get a lot of meaning through my personal spirituality and the emotions I've processed. That's a big part of what keeps me going. And there are lots of people who genuinely care, including several of you folks on this forum. Thank you. That means a lot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:04:32 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Get Well, bobby Message: Bobby: Yes, the surgery 'may' damage your body a bit, but DEATH is REAL DAMAGE! Don't hesitate.... I don't mean 'rush,' I mean don't delay in getting yourself ready and getting the treatment that you need. Keep us informed, bobby, ok? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:35:47 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Mike Subject: Get Well, bobby Message: The damage via medical treatment is real and significant -- high probability of loss of taste and smell, loss of salivary glands, loss of some muscle functionality. There are other things even worse, much worse, that may well happen. I've done my best to find the way that was best for me and it's gotten me to this point. My stand is that the cancer and the situation as it stands is what is given me. I accept it and do my best with healing. I have no fear of physical death. In some ways that would be easier. However, I want to be here, I want to live. That has a lot to do with my loved ones and my spirituality. I see my body as a gift. I didn't always see things that way. I had a near-death and in the near-death I was told to come back. The place I was at during my NDE was profoundly beautiful and a place that felt like liberation, way beyond the significant highs I had experienced up to that point. For many years, in a down-deep kind of way I didn't really want to be on earth and longed to return to the place I experienced during my NDE. Nothing came close to that experience. I was acutely aware of all the suffering on earth and it was genuine a mystery to me how people could say they were 'happy to be alive'. Ironically, the further I've travelled and the more I've personally come in touch with life's difficulties, the more accepting, even grateful, I've become about being alive. It's a sense I have and I'm not really sure why I feel this way. I have a sense that I'm 'supposed to be here' just like each and every one of us is 'supposed to be here'. That's enough. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 04:05:36 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bobby Subject: near life experience Message: interesting point you bring up about your NDE. The reason the door is shut to remembering anything before birth or from others after death is probably that (assuming it is even real), it is useless except to lessen fear of death. The pursuit of out of body stuff (under the pretense of spiritual realization) fundamentally twists our view of life and gets us looking in the wrong direction. Courtesy of the eastern guys, Instead of loving life here and mixing it up with the others with enthusiasm, we are led to view being here as a place of suffering compared to -the spiritual part of the wheel of life- and the otherworldly disembodied ones beckoning from beyond telling us to renounce our lower nature and behave according to buddha's idea of detaching yourself from -well, yourself really, and, attaining compassion. This goal of compassion is not on your radar screen today. You mention becoming 'more accepting, even grateful for being alive'. The buddhist/hindu distraction has you distracted from your own NDE where you met up with ONE nice force. The only direction that covers all the bases is to love that one force you met up with and yourself and the rest of us. Who talked to you in your NDE about dieties? Didn't happen. Why have a muddled picture populated with disembodied nobodies that don't count? Any channeled writings I have read could easily come from amy alive humans own thoughts. Trust your own NDE. The loving force you have told us about many times didn't say 'go embrace a picture of imagined dieties and practices'. There are people in russia with cancer and they have no medicine. You have everything. Your attitude of 'I am going to be happy and make the most of my moments with others and be interested in loving the moment and be thankful to that nice NDE force that has sponsored my time and body for my pleasure of expression and I am going to stop my fog of viewing the kind NDE force as some vague -oneness- with a faulty imagined buddhist cosmology surrounding it and realize that it was damned well concious of me when it was loving me and telling me to go back and it is my friend and I need no other knowledge of god than that. I am here! it is still aware of me, I can love it, I can love my life, I can love the others, I have lots of reasons to be happy. I may live lots more days.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:34:07 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: near life experience Message: You sure presuppose a lot Bill and are quite wrong. Sorry. No matter what I say to you, you still go on with your false ideas and erroneous notions about Buddhism. Then you go on to interpret my life and my NDE experience for me. 'This goal of compassion is not on your radar screen today.' Huh? Geez. Get a life Bill. You are way off base. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 08:14:45 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bobby Subject: near life experience Message: What have you said that I missed? Where am I wrong about you or buddha? And where am I wrong about the NDE force? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 08:50:12 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: near life experience Message: What have you said that I missed? Where am I wrong about you or buddha? And where am I wrong about the NDE force? In brief, as I am out the door this morning: I responded to your Buddhist misinformation on several occasions in the past. As I recall I got little or no reply. The heart of Buddhism is compassion. The body is a great gift. The Buddhist deities are images at least as valid as any Western image of God. Important aspects of my NDE included purpose, profound spiritual experience and enfolded meaning. These are entirely consistent with Buddhism. After 30 years of personal spiritual work, where my NDE has been central, Buddhism speaks to the heart of the matter, ie. purpose, profound spiritual experience and enfolded meaning. Also, re: your statement that 'compassion was not on my radar screen', much of my life work has been and continues to be service -type work for people diagnosed with mental illness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 23:14:18 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: bobby Subject: near life experience Message: Gadzooks Bobby, I didn't repond to your responses? That doesn't match up with my memory but heck, if so, sorry about that. Let's walk the outer edge of buddhist thought. It goes just so far and then it has a gap. Maybe you can try to complete the theology. Here it is, You and my tibetian buddhist friend have both said to me that There is no self aware origional conciousness. There is the 'oneness' or whatever word is most used. And there is the living humans. And there is the wheel of life. The wheel of life has different levels for the recently dead buddhists to go to. The dalia lama is the reincarnation of the guy who inhabits the level closest to the oneness without actually mergeing. The dalia lama (and others) choose to not go into the oneness but come here into the suffering to show us how to get up on the wheel as far as possible after death and repeat births until we finally get (__________) enough to be merged after death. (you fill in the blank) After you finally get merged, you lose the idenity and become'one' which is the goal. Also, with a detached relationship to this creation and our 'lower' human nature, we are to 'cultivate compassion'. Did I miss something? Here is the question; WHO created the wheel? WHO made the 'levels' for that first buddhist to gradually climb? There is more in your post to ask but the above is enough for one post. enjoy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 07:28:15 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: near life experience Message: WHO created the wheel? WHO made the 'levels' for that first buddhist to gradually climb? How do I know? I think Buddha said something like those kind of answers are incomprehensible or unknowable. Furthermore, I think the 'levels' and the 'wheel' are metaphoric and not some kind of point-to-able grand construction. As far as you not liking the Buddhist deities. So what? Do you think God has a form, like some kind of Charlton Heston type white dude? Also, with a detached relationship to this creation and our 'lower' human nature, we are to 'cultivate compassion'. Did I miss something? Yes, you're insistence on 'detachment' and emphasis on 'lower' human nature as you present it is incorrect. You imply strong rejection. That may be the case with some Buddhists, but certainly not with all. I might add that 'strong rejection' is central to the practice of many Christians. I'm fairly knowledgable about the teachings of Jesus. Buddhism takes me deeper. I see Buddhism as the best expression of the way things are for me at this time. A very personal place to be. I'm still not interested in a theological debate Bill. With all due respect, the sorts of questions you raise don't matter much to me. It's like the old 'how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin' debate. People have been arguing these theological debates for centuries. I'm more interested in working out my practice. I'm enjoying my Buddhist practice and I get a lot out of it. Maybe you think I'm deluded or worse. So be it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 07:52:28 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bobby Subject: near life experience Message: Bobby the answer to that question is certainly knowable and not at all incomprehensable. Don't avoid it. The wheel was by no means a metaphorical image. Don't just wave it away because it is early in the morning and you weren't in the mood yet. Who said I don't like the buddhist dieties? You said, 'do I think god has a form? a heston type?' Bobby, if the oneness has no self conciousness, there IS no god so what are you saying? Come on, the question is actually a good one. Who created the wheel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:14:21 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: near life experience Message: Hi Bill - I had a few comments to make on your post, although Bobby's addressed most of them. In Bobby's original post, he said: For many years, in a down-deep kind of way I didn't really want to be on earth and longed to return to the place I experienced during my NDE. Nothing came close to that experience. I was acutely aware of all the suffering on earth and it was a genuine mystery to me how people could say they were 'happy to be alive'. Ironically, the further I've travelled and the more I've personally come in touch with life's difficulties, the more accepting, even grateful, I've become about being alive. It's a sense I have and I'm not really sure why I feel this way. I have a sense that I'm 'supposed to be here' just like each and every one of us is 'supposed to be here'. I found this to be a genuinely inspiring statement. I never had a NDE, and I am not a Buddhist, but as far back as I can remember (age 2 or so), I ALWAYS had a 'acute awareness of all the suffering on earth'. This is a big burden for a little kid - I'm not sure why or how it happened to me. Probably as a result of being empathetically in touch with my father, who was a sensitive but suffering person. At times, I've felt suicidal because the weight of suffering in the world seemed unbearable to me. Sometimes it still feels unbearable to me. Peter and I give a portion of our time and income to people and organizations who are trying to alleviate some of that suffering. I really admire the people who are on the front lines of some of these organizations - I don't see how they deal with the pain and suffering they encounter. I know that a lot of these people have a strong faith in SOMETHING - whether it be in the essential goodness of other people, a belief in God, or whatever. I honestly don't care what deities they worship, if they worship any at all - in fact, some of the people I most admire, who run an huge shelter for abused and unadoptable animals, are Buddhists. I've said here before that I don't understand your attitude towards Buddhism, especially as you don't seem to feel that way about the Western religions. I am sure there are selfish and hateful 'Buddhists', just like there are selfish and hateful 'Christians', but in the few books I've read by people who actually practice Buddhism (they are almost all Americans, which may make a difference to you), there's a constant message that compassion and kindness to other beings are extremely important - maybe the most important thing in life. These people don't just say 'Life is suffering, and I can't do anything about it', and retreat into a cave. As far as believing in multiple deities - it's my understanding that people do this because the 'deities', or whatever, ARE seen personfications of aspects the ONE life force (as you put it), and as such are a source of inspiration. Sort of like Christians and saints, or the Virgin Mary, or even Jesus. Maybe Bobby can clarify this for me. Anyway, I am not a Christian, or a Buddhist, but I have a statue of Kwan Yin, a candle with a picture of St. Martin de Porres, and a picture of Jerry Garcia :) in my computer room. I don't think any of them are God, and I don't worship them - I just like to have representations of people who I feel embody certain qualities around me - it helps me keep going. This response is kind of muddled, but I hope you get the jist of it. Take care - Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:42:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: P.S. :) Message: I forgot to say that I also have pictures of my husband, my cats, JW, VP, and Elvis Presley in the computer room. I don't worship any of them either. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:36:35 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Katie Subject: near life experience Message: At times,I've felt suicidal because the weight of suffering in the world seemed unbearable to me. Sometimes it still feels unbearable to me. Thank you Katie. Indeed, I have felt like this for long periods at times of my life. Some of us are just that way. More and more I've realized that it's important to hang in there. Somehow, in the long run it works through and works out. I don't think that some people realize how hard some people take things. I think some people *are* more sensitive in a very real sense. There are many types of sensitivity. Some people of course are very emotionally sensitive. Others have acute hearing, or touch or smell. IMO sensitivity is a great gift. One needs to learn how to handle it though, how to be open and not get hurt (or hurt others). IMO our society devalues sensitivity. My kids have this gift and I tell them the same. -------------------------------------- As far as believing in multiple deities - it's my understanding that people do this because the 'deities', or whatever, ARE seen personfications of aspects the ONE life force (as you put it), and as such are a source of inspiration. Yes, I relate strongly to the 'peaceful and wrathful deities'. I see consciousness as structured in non-logical ways. No the deities are not logical, but they are nonetheless valid for me. The deities are highly symbolic, charged embodiments of awareness. They are not fundamentally real, but neither for me are these bodily, emotional or mental interactions 'fundamentally real'. They come and they go. My NDE was more real than any of these. I might add that I also enjoy embodied aspects of life that are very much apart from these considerations. I also think in a sense that its all very funny, all these deities and shit. I'm working on seeing the humor in some of the other personal relationships and situations that up to this point I think I have taken too seriously. I really like to laugh. I'm as full of shit as anybody else. And yes I'm full of inconsistencies and contradictions and that's good news!. We're all bozos on this bus. Sorry, some may not like what I say here for whatever personal reasons, but it is my true belief and experience the best I can tell it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 23:44:36 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Katie Subject: near life experience Message: Katie, if we lived for a couple hundred years, then what the heck! If you want to know about buddism, then pay attention to the post above. Just because american writers rewrite buddhas words and paint thier slant of 'compassion and kindness' in thier books or articles, doesn't make up for the unsound thinking they have embraced courtesy of the buddha related ideology and propaganda machine. I suppose just because rawat is starting to get craftier with his pitch to the innocents by useing the 'inner you, peace love master light' rap, others will say to me well, bill, 'there are good and bad druids (or whatever I am) too you know!' Premies do good deeds! They write nice things on enjoying life .org! And bill! doing good things and saying nice things 'may be the most important thing in life!' Dieties are not what you think Katie dear. Take a look at the above post for the wheel levels. I have no love of western religion. But If there is a case to be made for an intelligence involved with the dna workings, then what is it? An origional intelligence? Or a place of suffering and wheel levels and a 'oneness'? Why pretend that there is no effect from the choices you make in this area. Maharaji clearly is in the camp that thinks it is a 'oneness' and so he and others can foist this enlightened being stuff on us because the foundational theory of buddha laid out the roadmap for the basis of their life view. Having emerged from slavery to that view, I see the line in the sand. Bobby wants to overlook that there is a line perhaps? Or maybe he will be willing to look and see what he sees on this issue without 'bias' as his thread here talks about. I welcome your input as always. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 13:27:58 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: near life experience Message: Hi Bill - First, let me say where I stand on the position of 'god' or 'oneness' or 'higher power' - I am a theistic agnostic. Seymour once pointed out that 'agnostic' can have negative connotations, so let me further define it (if someone else can come up with a better word, let me know). Anyway, I think/feel/sense that there might be some sort of higher power, but I don't know if there actually is or not. Sort of wishy-washy, but that's how I feel. You wrote: If you want to know about buddism, then pay attention to the post above. Just because american writers rewrite buddhas words and paint thier slant of 'compassion and kindness' in thier books or articles, doesn't make up for the unsound thinking they have embraced courtesy of the buddha related ideology and propaganda machine. First, I don't think there is a buddha related ideology and propaganda machine. You have talked about some concepts from Buddhist scriptures - like the wheel of birth and death and so forth. I don't have a problem with Bobby saying that this is a metaphor. The Bible talks about Heaven and Hell and Creation, and so forth - some Christians take this literally, and some see it as a metaphor. I don't think that the people who see it as a metaphor are practicing 'watered-down' or 'American' Christianity. IMHO, it's a more basic Christianity. You keep talking about Buddhism like it's a single belief, and everyone who calls themselves a Buddhist has to believe the same things. As I see it, there are many schools of thought within Buddhism - just like there are within Christianity. I have met some Christians who take everything in the King James version of the Bible as literal truth - I guess there are probably Buddhists like that too. But I know that Mickey (for example), who is a devout Christian, doesn't feel that way about the bible, and I know there are practing Buddhists who don't feel that way about Buddhism. As far as what you said about premies: Premies do good deeds! They write nice things on enjoying life .org! And bill! doing good things and saying nice things 'may be the most important thing in life!' I've said this before on here a lot of times - I DON'T think that all premies are the same, and I don't have a problem with people being premies per se. What I do have a problem with are some of the things that Maharaji says, the belief that Maharaji is god & that whatever he says goes, and the divisiveness, censure, close-mindedness, and fear that can occur when premies believe these things. In other words, my quarrel is with Maharaji, not with premies in general (although I do have a problem with some premies in particular). I have no love of western religion. But If there is a case to be made for an intelligence involved with the dna workings, then what is it? An origional intelligence? Or a place of suffering and wheel levels and a 'oneness'? Why pretend that there is no effect from the choices you make in this area. Maharaji clearly is in the camp that thinks it is a 'oneness' and so he and others can foist this enlightened being stuff on us because the foundational theory of buddha laid out the roadmap for the basis of their life view. I really don't see the connection between seeing the higher power as either 'an original intelligence' or 'a oneness' and Maharaji. Yeah, you are right that Maharaji has set himself up as an 'enlightened' being, but this ties into ALL the major religions, not just Buddhism. You could come from almost any religious belief and get sucked into a belief that Maharaji was the 'enlightened being' in the world at this time. Many premies believe that Jesus was a perfect master too. I don't see Maharaji as taking his ideas from Buddhism at all - for one thing, he comes from the Hindu tradition, which is very different. I got into Maharaji because I believed that Maharaji was an highly evolved being who was teaching something that would make me a better person. I also believed that he was going to change the world, and I wanted to help him do that. I also had some really weird beliefs about the apocalypse/Aquarian age/millenium, and so forth, and the whole Maharaji trip tied right into those. I don't believe any of these things any more - I don't believe in the whole concept of 'Perfect Masters' either. I don't think 'the original intelligence' OR 'oneness' EVER embodies as a human being. But I really don't see the connection between following Maharaji and believing in 'oneness' as opposed to 'an original intelligence' - that wasn't the reason I got involved at all. Having emerged from slavery to that view, I see the line in the sand. Bobby wants to overlook that there is a line perhaps? Or maybe he will be willing to look and see what he sees on this issue without 'bias' as his thread here talks about. I don't agree that there is a universal 'line in the sand' (I assume you are drawing this line between 'oneness' and 'orginal intelligence' - please correct me if I am wrong). I think that there is probably a line in the sand there for you, Bill, and I respect that. But I just don't see it that way. I welcome your input as always. The same goes for you, Bill, although I'm not always sure I'm understanding your posts correctly. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:46:48 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Katie Subject: near Bobby experience Message: Katie, Here you are, life staring you in the face, YOU say, 'there might be some sort of higher power, but I don't know if there is or not.' 1) Many people will say; 'NO there is not. In the beginning was energy and matter only and conciousness evolved from matter.' 2) The next group says, (in whatever way); 'Yes there is a self concious origional intelligence.' 3) The next group says; There is a 'oneness' that has qualilties but is not self concious.' Katie, if you can add to the list, I will be impressed because I cannot find any group out there that is not in one of those groups except people who profess to hold your 'I don't know' stance. I have gotten to know people on this forum better than most of thier close friends know them because I read thier writing. Bobby for example has written since before I got here. Which will be two years in a couple months. Bobby has a foot in two catagories and he is not the only one. Look, he had his experience out of his body during that awful accident. Clearly, to him, he met up with a real concious force that talked to him. (those in catagory one above say to him that it was a physical thing.) That is natural that they would hold that view, they are in catagory 1). I have read Bobby here say clearly to me that the 'oneness' is not self concious. Exactly the view of all buddhists that I know and the view of all buddhists everywhere. Check for your self. You claim otherwise but you are guessing. Yes they believe that there are ascended masters or lamas in the various levels of the wheel of life after death. So, if they look to a 'diety' they are talking to one of those folks in one of those levels. Please don't bring up the mess in catagory two and how THEY are loaded with dieties. That is not the topic. WHO did Bobby meet?? The tibetian buddhists clearly say that the dali lama is the regular reincarnation of the guy at the outermost edge of the levels and is right next to the 'oneness', the non self concious oneness. SO, clearly, bobby ran into the dali lama or some lesser level hugging out of body former buddhist. Bobby will not as of yet just honestly look at that even though the guy asking has read miles of his sentences and is doing a favor by asking. He started this thread and it was about religious programming and he has a little and why can't he be prodded there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 10:07:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: near Bobby experience Message: Hi Bill - I'm not Bobby, so he's going to have to answer this one, IF he wants to (he's got a lot of other stuff going on). I do think we're not really communicating here, and the disagreement is not as profound as you think. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:23:48 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Katie Subject: near Bobby experience Message: Hello there Katie. I am willing to just retry a response to your post as I did do something quite unusual for me the last two days. Some rich drinkers came from out of state and I had one drink each day and it was mostly vodka and it does have an effect. It is still you of course when you drink but then again it isn't. I do have a reason for seeing an importance for the 'line' and how it matters when it comes to prem rawat. And Bobby for that matter. And me and you. I also have some reasons cooked up that you touched on in your post but I think I will wait till tomorrow to get into it. By tomorrow the breezy fun will be handy. How do people drink every day? It is not superior to normal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:02:38 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: near Bobby experience Message: Hi Bill - I do think we need to define terms here - could you further explain what is the difference between 'oneness' and 'the original intelligence'? BTW, Bill, I cannot IMAGINE what you are like when you've been drinking. Is it better or worse than breathing MEK fumes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:36:10 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Bobby Subject: PS Bobby Message: Bobby: I hope that I didn't accentuate the negative too much in my post immediately above. I had an aunt (that I loved very much) who delayed getting treatment for fear of how she might be disfigured; the delay cost her (and US) dearly. SO, I'm afraid that I jumped and may have sounded a bit pushy.... Sorry, that wasn't my intent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:00:51 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: bobby Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: Hi Bobby I thought the six points outlined some valid guidelines for argument/discovery. Basing one's arguments on the facts, being careful not to overgeneralise, scrutinising one's own arguments for their validity, valuing dissenting opinions - these are among the tools of science, and of clear thinking in general. Agree with Helen that we're all prone to prop our point of view up by being a bit sloppy on these type of things. Whether these are defining characteristics of a cult is another matter. I think they are common problems in a cult, and as such are indicators. There are others too, of course, such as authoritarian leadership. However I agree that these factors are found elsewhere, and are indicators that something isn't quite right, wherever they occur. Sorry to hear that your illness has returned, Bobby. Big hug Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:40:38 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Diz Subject: ideas on cultic behavior Message: Thanks diz, what you said is pretty much where I hoped the discussion would lead on the article I posted. I pretty much always like to see your posts cause I really appreciate your thoughtful perspectives. I'm glad your around. A big hug back. Love, Bobby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 03:10:10 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Uk prems... Subject: ...who were at Houston Message: A few weeks ago there was a post asking for people who were at Millenium '73 in Houston to contact a tv researcher. well, I did and had a long chat about it last night. They are making a series tracing the rise of 'spiritual movements' etc traced back to the early part of the century (theosophists etc) and culminating with the millenium. This is reason for the interest in DLM because of the Houston gig being billed as the end of the millenium etc. The woman I spoke with asked if I knew anyone else who was there so I'm asking. There is a three-stage process - a telephone call, then if all goes well a face-to-face meeting and finally a recording for possible broadcast. If you're interested contact me or else email Miriam at Testimony Films as shumphries@email.msn.com directly. They are based in Bristol and made one of the recent documentaries about WW1 veterans returning to the Somme and some others including one about people who work with the sea around Britain. I hope at least one other person will contact them as my bizarre and fantastic story about Living Gods and the Book of Revelations (and the comet! remember that? And what if the WPC lads had succeeeded in writing m's name in the clouds with a laser gun - what would that have been turned into?) needs some corroboration! Seriously though, we lived through an important part of social history and it should be recorded. It would be interesting to have a practicing prem talk as well - that might be even more bizarre :-) Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 03:12:01 (EST)
From: syd Email: None To: all Subject: UK prems who were at Houston Message: should be the title of the previous message Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 03:40:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: syd Subject: I was there too ! Message: And stayed for a week after the program. I was taking care of the Indian mahatmas in some of the hotels where these k selections & sessions were going on day and night. I was blissed out ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 03:45:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: and become addicted then! Message: That was so powerful for me that I became addicted then. 24 hours a day in bliss, and I decided to move to the ashram. I couldn't live without it anymore. This world became so empty all of a sudden ..... I wonder what happenned. I guess this is how you get trapped. Bad luck for me that I was sleeping in the hotel room they needed for the mahatma's support. That was a big turn in my premie life, but I think it was bound to happen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:51:58 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I was not there Message: Sorry Syd. I wasn't there but was in cold and rainy Stoke-on-Trent and had surrendered to the Lord and was selling Divine Times door to door and trying to remember the word. Like the true devotee who swept the path for Lord Ram, I had no thought of myself or getting darshan from my Lord. That was in his hands, entirely and I was surrendered at the lotus feet of his ashram. And was I blissed out? Was I fuck! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 15:14:18 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: I was not there Message: Stoke? My dad was from Tunstall. Where was the ashram? I have a vague memory of going there but am not sure. A lot of my friemds received k while living in the area. I met AJW in that area, a year or two before k. Ok, back to the houston theme. Did you believe that the end of the world was coming - that Revelations was coming true and so on? If so, how did you feel about not going? This sort of background is just as interesting to me as stories from others who did go. Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 18:59:14 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: syd Subject: I was there Message: >Did you believe that the end of the world was coming - that Revelations was coming true and so on? NO I believed that it was important to go to the gathering which was promoting a positive way to view the source of life inside human beings. This existence is magic! It is true that the end of our own life on this earth is coming. But thats another story. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 21:07:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Language tricks Message: I believed that it was important to go to the gathering which was promoting a positive way to view the source of life inside human beings. Chris, I have no doubt you believed this. But is that ALL you believed? You know, it's pretty easy to take one safe thing you believed in and waive it about saying, 'Here it is! Here's the thing I believed in!' But is it the ONLY thing you believed, Chris? In particular, did you believe that anything was going to happen at Millenium that would 'prove' something to the world? Did you believe anything would happen beyond just the events of another satsang festival? What? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:47:07 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: CD Subject: I was there Message: I was there too. And I'm being totally honest when I say that all this stuff I was hearing was coming from Bal Bhagwan and 'others,' and not from Guru Maharaj Ji. Maharaji may have responded with a joke or two, and that was it. I had no idea at the time that there would be a split in the family, but had already gotten into the habit of not paying much attention to Bal Bhagwan's musings, because his so-called 'intelligence' never really seemed intelligent to me, but instead very kind of weird and confusing. And I really wasn't paying much attention to the 'fortune telling' some people got into at that time. It was an event, like any other event, except that it had a lot of craziness going on in the fringes, more than any other program I remember. But Guru Maharaji was giving the same message as ever, and he did not go into this other weird shit your are alluding to. People who wanted to get into that stuff, Guru Maharaj Ji did not try to stop them (as far as I know), but he did not himself participate in the foolishness. This is my clear and honest memory. It is a good thing, in my opinion, that Guru Maharaj Ji's family split up a bit not long after the Houston '73 event. Sometime in the past year I heard a video of Guru Maharaj Ji where he was talking about how he goes around the world to speak to people about Knowledge, and he was saying how he did not travel in order to do sightseeing, and he certainly did not come to India to see his family. My personal take on it is that Guru Maharaj Ji recognizes that some of his family are pretty crazy, and he just leaves them alone, and is happy to be let alone. Bal Bhagwan Ji was the one into the comet thing. And his explanations (which he seemed to think were very intelligent and logical) were outlandish. It's a wonder to me that anyone took him seriously. I'm serious! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 14:58:36 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: red heart Subject: I wasn't there Message: Red: My contention is that if M didn't 'try to stop it,' then he is responsible and approved of it. Have you ever heard of silent assent? That's the word for it. Be that as it may, the reason that M avoided his family in India is because the SUCCESSFULLY sued him for rights to DLM in india. Additionally, the family breakup actually occurred when M decided to marry an non-indian (marolyn aka durga ji). This was more than dear Mata ji could stand. She packed up the family and went home, where she declared Bhalbag to be THE new and improved satguru. BTW, immediately following the festival, I happened to be hitchhiking up the pacific coast. Almost every ride I got was from a retuning premie. TO THE PERSON, they declared that the LOTU was on the planet and that the 'millenium' had finally arrived (e.g. that he was the Christ returned). Where did they get this garbage from, if not the festival from which they were returning? If M didn't try to stop the misrepresentation (and he most certainly did NOT), then he is just as guily of it as the actual person purveying it! Not ONCE, from his high and mighty throne above the crowd, did he state 'I AM NOT THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.' Instead, he stated that guru is greater than god, because he reveals god. That's pretty clear, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 21:46:02 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: I was there and it cured me Message: It was so boring, inane and nothing special happened of course. I helped put up the stage, but didn't stick around to tear it down like I was supposed to. I sucked as a devotee. The trip lasted about two months more for me and then I said forget it, it ain't worth it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 18:21:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: red heart Subject: I was there Message: I was there too, and yes, Bal Bhagwan is and was an idiot and said a lot of really stupid stuff, in a sort of pseudo-intellectual way. But Guru Maharaj Ji said a lot of really stupid stuff too, and probably would have said more except he wasn't nearly as articulate as Mata Ji and BBJ. But really, his actions were a lot louder than any words. Guru Maharaj Ji sat up on a huge throne wearing a crown while we sang Arti and The Lord of the Universe to him. Now, even BBJ didn't do THAT! He also gave a 'press conference,' the very last one he ever did in his life, I think, at which he was evasive and arrogant. I highly recommend seeing 'The Lord of the Universe' video that covered the Millennium program and was produced by PBS. There are a number of copies floating around among the exes. It's very clear from that video, and from my personal recollection, that you can't blame ALL the carziness on people other than Maharaji. But, moreover, Maharaji has NEVER CORRECTED any of those stupid ideas. I mean, he has never said that any of those things were wrong, or has disavowed them. Has he? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:49:21 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: JW Subject: m and the crown Message: Guru Maharaj Ji sat up on a huge throne wearing a crown I remember seeing the Houston tv news in my hotel room. They showed Rennie Davis kissing the feet of m who was sitting on his high throne at the top of the stage and wearing the huge gold crown. It was very newsworthy because RD had been demonised as a crazy communist radical as one of the 'Chicago Seven' conspiracy-trial defendants. The news clip did not show m saying 'hey, stop that this minute, I'm only a meditation teacher you know'. I think they must have cut that bit out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 22:53:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: red heart Subject: But your memory's selective Message: I was there too. And I'm being totally honest when I say that all this stuff I was hearing was coming from Bal Bhagwan and 'others,' and not from Guru Maharaj Ji. red, I'm holding a copy of the special Millenium issue of And it is Divine, the one that served as a fetival program. Let's take look. You open the magazine to a gold ink faux parchment translucency on top of a picture of the astrodome. (Sorry, the Holy Astrodome.) The 'parchment' reads in part: For it was the late Satgurudev's wish that the Knowledge which he spread across India should reach all corners of the globe, so that peace and brotherhood might at last prevail on earth. Three years ago at the 1970 Hans Jayanti the present Guru Maharaj Ji proclaimed he would establish world peace. This year at Millenium '73 he will set in motion his plan to bring peace on earth for a thousand years. Next is the 'editorial' by Mahatma Gurucharanand which closes with: 'But now once again the almight Lord has incarnated in human form to reveal to us the fundamental truth within ourselves....' Turn the page and there's Maharaji's own introductory comment found over his signature in each issuewhich reads, in part: ' There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. But history is a pendulum. There have been so many prophets, so many scriptures, but still people have never been able to understand Him. Divine Light Mission wants to bring world peace by sharing the Knowledge which is within us by the grace of the Almighty Lord. In this magazine, we hope to give th information about the peace which lives within us, which Guru Maharaj Ji reveals.' Then there's an article about the history of Hans Jayanti which ends like this: 'This year's festival will propel the whole world into the New Age. And so this year's Hans Jayanti festival is appropriately named Millenium '73. For the Millenium means a thousand years of peace for people who want it. The first years of Millenium are apt to be unsettling. ... Soon the Kingdom of Heaven will be a reality. It has to be -- that's the only end this fairy tale universe will allow.' Next to the article is the 'Peace Bomb' satsang in which he says shit like: 'I possess such a thing that I do not need machine guns, I do not need pistols, I do not need a swrod, I do not need a spear. I possess such a Knowledge that I can control the whole world from ants to elephants, from men to animals, from birds to mosquitoes by tying them in a thread of love. I have this Knowledge and I have come to give it to you. Dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. Oh! Where has that peace gone? Now shall that peace prevail again. It will come and once again the world will understand it. Love flows into me and the Lord has given me wisdom; will He not give me strength to establish peace on this earth? ... Then there's an article called 'A Call to Millenium' which, after once again repeating Maharaji's decalartion that he 'will establish peace in this world' ends as follows: 'Peace is needed. And peace shall be obtained. This November 8, 9 and 10, Guru Maharaj Ji will attend the Millenium '73 Festival in the Houston Astrodome and present to the world a plan for putting peace into effect. ... Humanity is invited. The peoples of all nations are invited. The leaders of all nations are invited. Inner peace and world peace are both at stake. This festibal will be a world assemblage to save humanity. Great prophets have come into the world before now, and we have ignored their teachings. We invite you to come to Houston and hear Guru Maharaj Ji. The Knowledge he brings can bring peace to the world.' Then there's the three-day program. The days are divided into ' Thursday: What is a Perfect Master?', 'Friday: The Perfect Master is Here' and 'Saturday: World Assemblage to Save Humanity'. It includes such gems as: 'Bob Mishler, President of Divine Light Mission America, will be the first speaker of this evening. His theme will be the improtance of Millenium to America and the world.' 'The State of the World: Guru Maharaj Ji's only western apostle, Mahatma Saphlanand Ji, will speak about the present world crisis and the solutino offered by Guru Maharaj Ji.' 'A Divine United Organization: Guru Maharja Ji's Divine United Organization proclamation is read, followed by a formal call to humanity to join in the New Age by all practical means, giving generous support to Maharja Ji's progrma for world peace.' 'A tHousnad Years of Peace: Rennie Davis, the General Coordinator of the Millenium '73 Festival, will speak about the furture family of man.' 'Guru Maharaj Ji's final address of the festival to America and the world.' Then there's an apocalyptic summary of world events entitled 'The World Today.' Then a bunch of fawning religious hagiographies of the 'Holy Family'. It's all over the top and replete with stuff like: 'Now [Bal Bhagwan Ji] is at work organizing Millenium '73, this year's Hans Jayanti. In this way Bal Bhagwan Ji is helping to set in motion a process of change which will turn the world right side up and bring it to peace.' Then there's an article called 'Prophets of the Millenium'. You know the routine. Lions, lambs, the usual suspects. It ends: 'Is Guru Maharaj Ji the great Savior that all peopels of the world are expecting? That is something everyone must decide for themselves. We all ahv eour own interpretations of the various scriptures and prophecies, so if we really want to discover if Guru Maharaj Ji is the Perfect One, we must each make our own investigation. We should talk with people who hav ereceived the Knowledge with Guru Maharaj Ji reveals. We should lsiten to what Guru Maharaj Ji has to say; when we are ready we should receive the Kbowledge ourselves and find out by direct experience whether Maharaj Ji is the Master of perfection that his disciples claim he is. And then we will know for sure Who Guru Maharja Ji is. There will be peace in our hearts and ther eiwll be peace on earth.' Then there's fancy print of Arti. More satsang. Tell me, red, that this wasn't a little over the top. And tell me, red, how Maharaji wasn't involved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:30:59 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: festival program Message: Jim, That is extremely interesting and useful background info. Is there any possibility that you could photocopy (xerox) the whole thing and send it to me? I have plenty of US stamps so I could repay the entire cost in that way if that would be OK with you. Email me at the above address if you're into it. Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:05:26 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: red heart Subject: M said his family were... Message: 'fully realised souls'. The whole bloody lot of them. Was Mr Rawat mistaken, or did they somehow fall from Grace when the writs started flying? You come across as a pathetic revisionist, Red Heart. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 14:27:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: Why the name? Message: CD: If what you 'believed' is all that was intended, then why the name 'millenium' festival? Was M referring to the Y2K? NOT HARDLY. This festival's name was carefully chosen to indicate the beginning of the biblical 'millenium of peace,' that was to be invoked by the presence of the new and improved lord of the universe (aka rawat). Revisionists cannot weasel out of THIS one. It is the reason for the name, plain and simple. He was being harolded as the lord 'returned' to us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:38:10 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: CD Subject: I was there Message: I believed that it was important to go to the gathering which was promoting a positive way to view the source of life inside human beings. Really? How undevoted. If you'd said that to me at the time you'd have had some satsang about surrender and devotion, complete with quotes from m. What were you, a householder? Or do you now suffer from poor memory? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:27:51 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: syd Subject: I was there Message: 'Or do you now suffer from poor memory?' This is the usual standard premie revisionism. We call this in Tooting a big wanker. regards Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:38:07 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Jethro Subject: were you? Message: Hi Jethro, So you're checking the site before work too? Big Good Morning from New Cross to you! Reading these wierd claims now from premies who were there at the time that m has never claimed to be more than just 'a meditation teacher' etc really pisses me off. We believed he was more than that back then so why are they ashamed to say so now? The answer is obvious. BTW - were you there? Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 03:03:54 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: syd Subject: were you? Message: 'BTW - were you there?' No, I got my first satsang from a friend who had been there and was travelling back to Australia, via Israel where I was living at that time. I got duped(i.e 'received knowledge') a few months later at the Palace of Peace. I do remember David Passes telling me that by 1980 it would 'all be over', i.e. peace would be established on the earth. The amount of revisionism amongst premies is unbelievable. At least while I was a follower I never stopped saying he was god. BTW your website is just great. Let me know of any raves/parties/gigs you could recommend. I've just started my own re-socialisation process. My email is above regards Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 21:12:28 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: syd Subject: I was not there Message: Hi Syd. No I didn't think the end of the world was coming and to tell you the truth, the whole thing seemed like a bunch of hype to me, even then. This was supposed to be officially the dawning of the age of Aquarious, so I was told or read in Divine Times and I remember thinking that the fact that my 21st birthday occured right in the middle (or beginning?) of the Millennium festival on the 8th November, was to me, a sign that I was one of the chosen ones. OK I know it sounds crazy now but how many premies had their 21st birthday on the day that the new age dawned?! Hey, I was coming of age when the world was coming of age and the Lord was on the planet and I was his devotee. The reality was that I was stuck in Stoke ashram and selling Divine Times didn't worry me overmuch. My time will come, I thought and Maharaji will bring me to his lotus feet when he's good and ready. I remember AJW but most of my memories of him were in London in the late seventies. I saw him in Stoke once or twice. I remember you too but I'm not sure from where. The ashram was in Hartshill Road which ran from Stoke-on-Trent to Newcastle-under-Lyme. It was opposite a church at the top of the hill. I think we overlooked Etrura Vale is something called something similar. That was full of tile factories, and brickworks and a kiln furnature works where I got a job in their sales office and proceded to wreck their business. There were a lot of premies in remote places outside of Stoke which I came to know and became good friends with. Malcolm and Janet were a couple I liked a lot and Vicar's daughter's, Theresa and Stephanie. I liked the people there but hated the ashram and that folded in the end in 1974. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:27:15 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: not at houston Message: Sir D - your perspective as someone who was not drawn in by all the exaggerated talk would also be useful I'd have thought. They seem to be non-sensationalist about it and the assistant producer that I've spoken with has not tried to press me in any way. If you don't feel like emailing them or talking on the phone to them either, it would help me a great deal if you would email me some brief (or long) notes on your memories of what was being said about it beforehand and then afterwards when people returned. I have only my own perspective of someone who was totally taken in by the whole hype as were many of the people around me. I will be talking with her again on monday so if you have a few minutes spare at the weekend then I'd appreciate it a lot. Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 15:22:08 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: Jean-Michel Subject: I was there too ! Message: Well, if you're interested in giving them some background then I'm sure they'd be interested in an email from you. They are willing to do email interviews as well. We take it for granted that all this happened, and all of the background to it is familiar to us, so I had been talking to her for quite a while before I realised that of course she did not know anything about it at all. Where did you fly from? I'm wondering if the jumbo jets from London were just for the UK premies or for all of europe. My memory is of three chartered jumbos, about 1000 premies. What do you remember about the travelling arrangements? yes, I moved into the ashram soon after houston - it seemed the only thing to do. As far as I was concerned the 'world' had ended even if it was still physically there. Bye for now Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 22:30:21 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: syd Subject: re. Channel 4 prog. Message: Hi Syd, I didn't contact Channel 4 when the subject of the TV documentary was first raised here since, much as I would like to see our one-time master publically pilloried, I don't want to go on television. (I wasn't at Millenium either - before my time). But if they're into using email info, maybe I'll get in contact. Is it only Millenium stuff they're interested in? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:11:06 (EST)
From: syd Email: syd@gold.ac.uk To: nigel Subject: re. Channel 4 prog. Message: It does seem to be the Millenium events that they are most interested in. The series is about the growth of spiritual movements in the west through the 20th century and one episode looks at millenial movements. I have not yet decided if I will be interviewd for TV - I may ask for my face to be kept off-screen. I still remember the pie-thrower who got his skull hammered in. Even Bill Gates didn't do that after he was hit by the flanneurs (of course BG is a genuinely wealthy and powerful person so maybe he doesn't feel the need). Do you know anyone who was there? They are very keen to communicate with someone else who was there as well as me. An email contact would be a good start. In my experence Melanie will not press anyone to participate more than they wish. Syd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 02:29:19 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: OK, vintage premie Message: We all know there's 'something there' if you get into meditation. You know, some scientists once experimented with people meditating on a blue vase for 20 mins or so each day and they started getting really good feelings about this vase, started to love it, said it gave them peace and some saw light etc etc. Before I had health problems, I used to be a keen cyclist. There's a lot there too. If you've never felt that feeling of riding flat out on a good bike, with the swish, swish of the tyres and the rythm of the pedals turning and the physical exhillaration of the effort and the endorphine buzz you get from the excercise and the concentration and the speed; if you've never felt all that, I could say you hadn't lived! There's something there in anything we try to do. Effort of any kind can bring some reward. And meditation; what's there is elusive, I think you'd agree. Most here meditated most days for over ten years. We weren't blissed out for all those ten years. We weren't happy and high from meditation for all that time and sometimes we were damn miserable even though we were practising. Meditation doesn't make people happy. It can give an experience but sometimes that experience can even lead to depression. ANd for me, now meditation gives me bad headaches and makes me dizzy. So while I agree there's something there, it's not the be all and end all of life. Most people who receive knowledge are confused about meditation. Is Maharaji a good meditation teacher? I think not. Does Maharaji meditate or even understand what it is? I doubt it. One technique, which used to be called nectar and now the fourth technique, has been changed from the old Kundalini yoga exercise which was taught by the Indian mahatmas back in the seventies and now it has become a rather pointless mouth swilling excercise as Maharaji now 'teaches' it. He obviously doesn't realise the full effect of the original kundalini yoga technique that is as old as the hills. I'd say that most premies and Maharaji included, do not ever get into meditation but just 'practise' so that they can say that they're following Maharaji and keeping their connection to him. It's the Maharaji excercise routine, that's all. No enlightened beings, no divinely happy people and in short, the premies are no happier or better off than most ordinary unpremie people. What is crazy though, is that Maharaji still goes on about some supreme truth or heaven people are going to get to with his knowledge. Who has ever got there? Name someone who's reached such a state? There's nobody. So why make knowledge out to be a fantastic thing? That's his sales pitch, of course. How else could he sell it. There is something to be had from meditation but it's not the quick fix or constant thing which Maharaji sells. So people get dissilusioned and leave it alone. Who's to blame? The salesman, of course! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:59:48 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: OK, vintage premie Message: Well said, Sir D. The play up of Knowledge borders on absurd. Back when I first heard of it, it was THE means to see God. Even Maharaji said so. Now, of course, 'enlightened' premies see that as a ridculous notion. It's merely a means for getting to 'that place' within that's 'just so, so beautiful'. My 'realization' of Knowledge is that it's neither. It's just a means of centering the mind on one point the same as a million other meditation techniques. It has no special properties nor powers contrary to what that fraud and his minions say. It's just four simple meditation techniques that have a ludicrous price tag attached to them, the dedication of your life. They're not worth that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:28:23 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: OK, vintage premie Message: Nectar technique, as we called it, is practiced in all different shades throughout India and the Orient. It's associated with completing an energy flow as often or more often than with actually drinking some kind of substance. The 'Autobiography of a Yogi' alludes to it, but, like the Radh tradition, will not disclose the actual technique. There are zillions of books that do, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 11:03:23 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: OK, vintage premie Message: Hey Sir D, how are you--great post to our Spanish speaking friend below. I do find the meditation helpful and calming, it actually gives me pain relief from my arthritis. I think it has something to do with right and left brain connection since my whole right side is seized up in muscle spasms most of the time and has nerve damage. After I meditate I do feel circulation in my right side much more. But exercise helps just as much, in fact even more. During the day I'll exercise, but in the middle of the night if I'm in pain I'll meditate. But I don't do all the techniques, I just do what I feel like doing at the time. And for you, it sounds like meditation is NOT the thing. I agree with you that it's ridiculous that meditation has been touted as the way to God. I think both you & I believe that God is already here and that we don't have to knock ourselves out with these efforts of meditation in order to find God's love. To me that is an enormous relief--that meditation burden is a lot to bear and now I realize that there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow called enlightment. A dear friend of mine used to be a meditation teacher of transcendental meditation. Part of her job required her to teach a class on trancendence & consciousness. She said she felt like a bit of a hypocrite talking about these things that she experienced so rarely and that it set up the unrealistic expectations to the students, setting them off onto that wild goose chase of enlightenment. She said, 'You know Helen, maybe being spiritual is admitting that one is in pain or barely functioning at times, can you imagine if I had said that to my meditation students? But that is the reality of the human condition'. If she had said that to her students than the whole house of cards would have fallen down don't you think? All of these meditation things, although well-meaning, seem to have an implicit 'enlightenment/constant happiness' message that just isn't a true and real reflection of human life. People can practice 'spiritual' behaviors in an attempt to be spiritual but such things can really shield them from letting life touch them, IMO. I have a little time for the forum today and just wanted to 'engage' with you a little since you're one of my favorite people. Hope you are experiencing some of the simple pleasures of life (such as little girl hugs, tea and marmalade, and the love of good friends), I know you certainly have more than your share of challenges Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 01:24:35 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More stuff about love Message: Read it from the horse's mouth. Get the full story from The Lord of Love and realise how lucky you are! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 16:01:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: Anyone read Angelo Arcaro's 'lives' entry on ELK? Angelo was a stalwart mainstay on the Canadian premie scene all the time I was around. A real windbag. A hothead. A glorymongering zealot. A real asshole. Anyone here know him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 17:51:19 (EST)
From: butch Email: None To: Jim Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: Jim, Your'e getting worse. You've become a real bully with a real foul mouth. Perhaps you always were. I expect you have frightened some possible Ex-premies off this site.. Doe's anyone REALLY employ you as their lawyer or maybe you are just what they need to intimidate the other party. I was trying to avoid you but you need to be told. I think people are scared of you. Is that how you like it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 18:18:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: butch Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: Jim, Your'e getting worse. You've become a real bully with a real foul mouth. Perhaps you always were. Well, if this is Butch Cosgrove you know that's not true. Bully? Come on, Butch, that's outrageous. My personal beef with Angelo relates back to an incident that happened at Lowther in 1974. Angelo didn't like something I'd said on the way to a program we were having at OISE and slapped me in the face. Shit I wish I could remember what that was about. Maybe Angelo does. Anyway, it was about the only time I ever witnessed let along partook of any premie shit like that. I just wish I'd had the balls to punch him back. Instead I think I just recoiled and meditated. No, if anyone was a bully then it was Angelo. The guy was a a real gas bag and Butch, if this is you, you KNOW I'm telling the truth. As for language -- if you're looking for sacharrine stay locked on ELK. What can I tell you? I expect you have frightened some possible Ex-premies off this site.. And how would that work? Go on, I'd love to hear this. Doe's anyone REALLY employ you as their lawyer or maybe you are just what they need to intimidate the other party. What are you doing these days? I was trying to avoid you but you need to be told. I think people are scared of you. Is that how you like it? No but I think you're wrong anyway. So tell me, Butch, how's life? Where you living? How do you survive? How'd you like being a community coordinator back then? How tight are your blinders? Your muzzle? Are you able to talk a bit? What's happening? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 23:00:14 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Jim Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: Hey Jim, couldn't resist jumping in here. I know Angelo. Now to update you, in the early 80's Angelo opened up a bar on Crescent St. in Montreal where he paid for mob protection, and enjoyed a really wild ride on lots of babes and lots of coke, until he was busted for importing coke into Canada at the Niagra Falls border, for which he spent at least 6 months in jail.After getting out of jail, Angelo returned to Montreal, but at least in the world of M and his premies, he was no longer the big fish he once was.Georges Legeres was by now fully entrenched as the Canadian national 'responsible' for Elan Vital, there were full time instuctors and part time instructors in Montreal and it was these guys who were pretty much running the show.Angelo seemed to feel disaffected from the premie world, but nonetheless, he somehow hung in there, even organizing premie outings to the small town outside of Montreal where he lives, in order to regenerate that old time 'community feeling' that he felt was somehow lost with drones like Georges running the show.Angelo's efforts were tolerated if not appreciated, and in time it seemed that he was at least on his way to overcoming his fall from grace. I'll leave you with this one 'Angelo' story.It happenned when Angelo had his club.Apparently, when fellow premie and professional bum Jeff Riven needed help in collecting a drug debt of $1000 he went to Angelo .Angelo had one of his mob buddies visit this guy with Jeff,and the palm of this guy's hand was slashed open. So much, for Butch, whoever the fuck he is, calling YOU a bully!!! Face it Jim, you just haven't slashed enough hands. PS There's more to say about this character Angelo, and I'll have to em you. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be very appropriate to say it on the net.Not for the sake of protecting Angelo, but other innocent people who have been hurt by him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 23:07:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: Nim, None of that surprises me. Angelo was a thug to the core. He pushed his way around and every premie that ever lived in Eastern Canada knows it. Butch, if he is indeed Butch Cosgrove, was a mild-mannered sometime bureaucrat for a while in the org. He was my com co-ordinator in Ottawa for a bit. He was kind of a humble, nice guy. I've got nothing against him and only wish him well. But the idea of me bullying anyone's a joke. My trip as a premie was this: either meditate kind of seriously, try to grab that elusive golden ring of devotion, try to bathe in the hamster's golden shower of love (????) or screw around, 'space out', get home late from satsang, flirt a bit. 'Bully'? What a joke. Oh and now? Now I'm into discussing rawat fairly, that's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:41:19 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Jim Subject: Angelo Arcaro Message: congratulations...now you are into attacking peole who don't even post here. anyone is fair game...go for it... as long as they claim to be premies... noone is entitled to privacy. if they are connected IN ANYWAY with M., they are fair game. go for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:44:53 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Orlando Subject: furthermore Message: Nimrod...Jim... when was the last time you talked to that guy? 10 years ago? 15? 20? (1974...i guess this was 24 years ago) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 00:16:09 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Wrong again Orlando Message: I last saw Angelo a year ago. Up until that time I used to see him on more or less a regular basis at videos.Even had dinner with him less than three years ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 00:05:17 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Wrong Orlando... Message: It's not as you say, 'if they are connected IN ANYWAY with M, they are fair game.' Not so, at least as far as I'm concerned. But Angelo definitely DOES merit the attention. He was after all a leading figure in the cult's very early days in Eastern Canada, and now we find him resurfacing as a headline act on your ELK site, telling the whole world how beautiful his life with knowledge has been. Well, I know something about Angelo's life, and I really don't think its been all that beautiful,and Orlando, I believe people have a right to know when they're being conned. That's what this is about.Now deal with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 09:32:07 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Wrong Nimrod... Message: You had lunch with him??? So i guess he is no longer this raving lunatic druggy described here. i don't know this guy, but.. just a little note Nimrod: (if you can forget this cult thing for a second) maybe this Angelo guy was some kind of a friend if you had lunch with him. what is sad here is that you very publicly describe something the guy has been going through, without him knowing it? too bad you do not have this very basic respect for people. not everything should be 'fair game'. you have NO right to do this. this is sad indeed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 10:56:55 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Wrong Nimrod... Message: Orlando, well Angelo is making public statements and taking a stand for the purpose of promoting greaseball, and as such HE has made himself a public figure of sorts so let him suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous truth. If he's so hooked to that perfect thingy inside and the great gooroo goober rajee it shouldn't bother him a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:59:42 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: gerry Subject: would you... Message: do this to a friend or even somebody you have lunch with? (unless you are a total hypocrit) we are not talking about the cult here, we are talking about someone who obviously went through a lot in his life. Doesn't this person deserve a little respect? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:12:00 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Orlando Subject: would you... Message: Orlando, Would I publicly expose someone's troubled life? It depends. My friend Kevin is going through a rough time and no, I would not talk about him publicly on the internet. However, he has never held a position of authority in a public organization and has not published a sanitized version of his life for public consumption. This guy was actively supporting and recruiting for a cult. A very destructive cult. My friend is just trying to earn a living and raise his kids. Can you see the difference? As far as respect, my opinion is that a person EARNS respect, through his action and deeds. Being in a cult and pushing it on other people is not a worthwhile pursuit, and doesn't deserve respect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:42:31 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: gerry Subject: would you... Message: Gerry, what does it matter obviously, that guy has been in hell and back i think he would deserve a little respect, that is all see that is the problem because the guy 'had a position of authority' (which i doubt) you no longer respect...this is too bad. that guy has doen NOTHING to YOU. he has not even posted here. maybe he does not want this to be public how about just a little respect Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 21:58:08 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Orlando Subject: would you... Message: What Orlando have I done that so offends you here? Is it that I shared some information and observations on an individual who has played a leading role in M's cult, at least in its early days in Eastern Canada, today apparently doing his best at a comeback after his fall from grace,and now resurfacing as a star player on the elk team, letting the whole world know how wonderful his life with knowledge has been,and how happy he is in his new role as the VILLAGE IDIOT VIDEO MAILMAN OF THE NEW MILLENIUM?For that reason alone, as it has already been pointed out to you...Angelo IS fair game. You've asked,'Doesn't this person deserve a little respect?' But let me ask you. What about the people who have been victimized by Angelo Arcaro? Don't they deserve a little respect as well?And trust me Orlando, the WORST HASN'T been told in this thread, because I DO respect people,I DO care for people...it's just that I always seem to care a little more for the victims than those who perpetrate acts of victimization.Its for THAT reason,that I have deliberately held back on THAT information in the Angelo file which would be the most offensive in terms of revealing the utter contemptibility of one of his actions in particular.That's right Orlando,you see....hand slashing ain't the worst of it.And we'll leave it at that. Finally let me share with you that I never really considered Angelo a friend.Friends for me are people you can trust, and Angelo to me was never really all that trustable.And if I had dinner with him on that one occasion,then let me make it clear, that it was only because HE JUST HAPPENED TO BE THERE accompanying a mutual friend at the time, whose company I DID enjoy, and so for that reason I guess I just tolerated Angelo's presence, so I could spend some time with this person. I have no qualms about sharing what I've had to say in this thread, and I do not feel as though I've betrayed a friend.I feel as though I've stood up for victims.Those who have been victimized by this slimester in the past,and those who may be in the future. I know you would like us to forget it Orlando,but IT IS A CULT and a destructive one at that.Now Angelo has always been a salesman, and its the CULT and its GOONER who he's always flogged. Buyer beware! You see, Angelo really does provide a perfect parallel to M and his cult. They're both not who they say they are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:49:00 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: ok... Message: your explanations are clearer. i thought that you had betrayed a friend and this is why i reacted the way i did. just for the record, i just think it is important to not forget that wether in a cult or not, and whatever your position may be, not to forget we are talking about human beings... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:56:11 (EST)
From: P Email: None To: Jim Subject: Repent ye wayward sons! Message: From a song by Jim the Bully: Do you fear A little child With a heart of gold? Can you really Be so old? Open your heart And hear your heart Calling you To the birth of creation The heart of Satguru Jim, these are the words your truest self wrote in the days before you had surrendered your mind to your mind. Can you really be so old? Can you really be so cold? Come on, you big bully be bold (notice the alliteration), hear your heart calling to you. Your heart - the voice of satguru. Lordy, Lordy! I shudder with ecstacy when I think of how great the rejoicing will be in the Malibu mansion of the Lord on the hill, when Jim the bully, the most wayward prodigal son, finally surrenders the reins of his rampaging mind to the power of the satguru! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:33:12 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: P Subject: Which satguru, P? Message: P: Which ONE????????? Huh? There are hundreds of folks that make the CLAIM, so which one should our poor Jim follow? Yours is a money-grubbing liar, so which other do you recommend? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 11:10:56 (EST)
From: P Email: None To: Mike Subject: Dear Brother... Message: Duhhhhh! Or, as you would say, Mike, DUHHHHHHH! (he he he) The satguru that Jim wrote his beautiful devotional song to! Who else!?!? All others who claim the divine title of Satguru are false prophets! Ye gods! What DO they teach children nowadays! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 11:21:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: P Subject: Dear P Message: P, When I wrote that song I was sitting in front of an altar of rawat, his sullen mum, his dead dad and his three brothers. When the family broke up I never did get a satisfying explanation. Now that I know BBJ's in business as a satguru I'd want to ask him AND the little piggie about what happened before I'd prostrate to either one. Maybe if they could get their stories straight I'd think about it. After all, I haven't prostrated to ANYONE for a couple of decades. You know how stuffy THAT can get, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 11:38:07 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: P Subject: Dear Brother... Message: P: 'All of the others are false prophets???????' Are you serious? Most of them have far more satisfied cutomers than M, so how do YOU make the determination that THEY are false? Show me something that M does that NONE of the others do. Don't include the techniques, since since the saomi tradition (and others) have been using them all along. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 09:32:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Angelo the mailman Message: Here's his latest: 'Delivering the videos Once a long time ago I used to think I had to do tell people about Maharaji and Knowledge .Now I can clearly see all I have to do is deliver the video. And that's what I do. Like a mailman I go from village to village picking up and dropping off videos for the thirsty. Along the way I get to meet more thirsty people and my route is just growing and growing. I'm having so much fun I can hardly contain the joy I feel. In the past week four more people have been added on to the 'thirsty people route'. It's just amazing witnessing it. .I'm so glad to be a part of it all.' This material's too rich. Who writes it? is what I want to know. There must be a God after all. This much humour couldn't just spring into existence on its own. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:15:06 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Angelo the Village Idiot Message: I get this vivid mental picture of this dude walking from village to village with dogs snapping at his ankles and kids running up to him and pulling his long tresses...where the fuck is he anyway? India? BTW, I checked out the Grey art stuff. What's this 'chapel' deal all about? Looks like a bunch of puffed up bullshit to me. ''like, here's my stuff, let's make a church for it and worship it, it's so great.'' Blehhh. Over my head, for sure. Didn't do a thing for me. I thought it was dumb, dopey, and ugly. Kinda like the black paint/broken mirrors ''art'' so popular in NY in the 80's. Not my cup of tea, but whatever diddles anyone's dingle (art-wise) is fine by me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:03:31 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: Angelo the Village Idiot Message: ..where the fuck is he anyway? India? Venice Beach? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:18:37 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: growing and growing, more and Message: more, better and better, brighter and brighter, higher and higher, mushier and mushier, REDUNDANT AND REDUNDANT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 20:32:56 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ...Just rescued Cesar.... Message: This Columbian guy seems to have problems. His message is on the messages to Maharaji page and is translated below from Spanish into English via a computerised translator. (Yes, they should get better one day) If anyone speaks Spanish, perhaps they'd like to email him. Here's his message: Name: Cesar Giovanni Parada Pinzon, Location: Bogota (Colombia) Email: Cesargiova801@starmedia.com Forum III: Inactive Message Date: Previous Message: Start a New Thread |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 22:31:10 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Blanco Subject: ...Just rescued Cesar.... Message: Hi Blanco. You say you've just rescued Cesar but you don't say how. Is your above post incomplete? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 22:46:21 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: ...Just rescued Cesar.... Message: The Do you speak Spanish? thread went inactive, therefore the Care to Help? one became an Orphan, just tried to piece it all back together. Well anyway, everybody around here writes so fast that I can't understand why Cesar has to die lonely.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 01:59:35 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Blanco Subject: ...Just rescued Cesar.... Message: You seem like a very eloquent person, Blanco, and your thoughts are very interesting. Still, sometimes your posts don't make sense to me. Sir Dave is trying to figure out if you have contacted Cesar or not. Let us know what's up.. Yours, Runamok Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 07:07:29 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Runamok and Sir Dave Subject: an appology Message: Run: Sorry for a short explanation. I have not sent anything to him myself and please be sure that I had no intention to exclude myself from my short explanation. Sir Dave has a very noble feeling about Cesar so he made a Quest for him to get help from this FORUM and I offered to translate the FORUM's advice for Cesar into Spanish and forward it to him. However, I thought the Quest and the Original Message Translated into English got detached from each other so it became difficult for anybody to match both. I suppose that this could not be avoided because decisions to send threads to the Inactive Index are part of the time and space administration policies of the WEBMASTER. Please accept my sincerest apologies for any rudeness you might have percieved in my message, it was mostly unintentional. I would also like to thank you for calling my Posts 'eloquent'. Please also remember that Cesar is almost greased by the ball and will shortly start to smell like Lard:' Saith Mr. Bacon well my Maisters, then Ile tell you; hope is a good Breakfast but it is a bad Supper.' 1661 W. RAWLY Resuscitatio (ed.2) 298. He'll be glad to hearing from you. Just a couple of lines???? Please.... what I mean is |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 08:04:55 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Blanco Subject: Some advice Message: Dear Cesar, I read your letter to Maharaji which has been kindly translated into English by Blanco. First let me say that I sympathise with your plight. There are some things you should know about Maharaji. He is not a user friendly master and keeps himself very distant from his devotees. His mission is more like a business to him and his main aim is to extract money from his devotees by convincing them that he is a great master is the source of knowledge. In actual fact, he is the opposite of this and is a very worldy man whi likes to live a life of luxury with many properties all over the world, luxury cars, private jet planes and a lifestyle that is very hedonistic. He has been seen to be a heavy drinker of alchahol and is known to have had affairs with numerous women as well as his wife. This in itself is not a bad thing but he preaches a very different teaching to what he lives and is therefore a hypocrite. Maharaji is a multi-millionaire in USA Dollars. All of this money has been given to him by his devotees who still believe he is a great master. He is constantly making requests for money from his devotees. Of all the devotees who ever followed him, less than 10% have stayed with him for very long. Most devotees soon leave Maharaji because his knowledge is not the heaven that he pretends it is and following Maharaji is a very expensive pastime. The devotees soon realise that they are not getting anything out of following Maharaji and so they quit. The knmowledge that Maharaji says he gives is just four old meditation techniques which are well known to people who have ever read any books on meditation or have studied a little of the Hindu philosophy. They are not magical techniques. Maharaji does not seem to even understand these techniques very well himself and my own experience from meditating on them has been very different to what Maharaji describes. Also, one of the techniques is a very well known Kundalini yoga excercise and Maharaji hasn't even got it right! He 'teaches' the technique in the wrong way and his devotees would not be doing it properly. Maharaji is essensially a confidence trickster. He has no great knowledge but convinces some people that he has. Most people who follow him for any time, regret their having done so later. He is not a warm hearted humanitarian and he will not be coming to Columbia to help anyone there. He is distant and unaproachable, living in Malibu, California in a big mansion which has been paid for by his devotees, who he keeps at a distance. Maharaji is a businessman, that is all. Your girlfriend has obviously been taken in by his talk. Tell her the real truth about Maharaji as I have written above and slowly she will come to realise that Maharaji's promises are empty. If she wants to know what the four meditation techniques are, she can learn them from one of the ex-followers of Maharaji and indeed, they are described in detail on a web site which can be given to you. This letter has been written in English (I am English) and then translated into Spanish for you by Blanco. You are welcome to reply via Blanco who can then translate your reply into English. Good luck and warmest greetings from England. David. (david.studio57@btinternet.com) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 17:59:42 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Some advice Message: Sir Dave, I think you've done an excellent job outlining the basics of Maharajis game, to Carlos. I don't know what I can add to this other than to send my sympathies. I know what it's like to have people that you love and care about ensnared in Maharaji's evil web, and it's not much fun! So Carlos, I wish you much luck in dealing with this unpleasant situation. Also, I wouldn't take your girlfriends rejection too personally, Maharaji really knows how to strike a chord with certain needy people, so it may be something out of your control. Try to talk sense to her, but be prepared for dissapointment. Some people just really need to believe in a fantasy to get through life. Even at the expense of their own self respect. Good Luck and Best Wishes, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 19:27:27 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: x Subject: Some advice Message: Thank you x just one thing, it is not carlos it is cesar... will change this in my translation Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 21:11:04 (EST)
From: Nil Email: None To: x Subject: Some advice Message: Some people just really need to believe in a fantasy to get through life. While others really need to believe in life to get through the fantasy. So, what's the difference? Fantasy is what will end; and life is what doesn't end. Which one do you bet on Carlos? If you wanted to bet on life how the hell would you do it? Well, my guess is you'd look for a formula that made sense to you and then try to live it. What if you couldn't find a conventional formula that made any sense? You'd either die, or find an unconventional one. How would you know if it made sense to you? You could listen to no one but your own heart. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:01:59 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: Life doesn't end? Message: Nil: Tell me, how do YOU KNOW that life doesn't end? Have you personally experienced this or are you parroting an old hindu idea? From every shred of scientific data, life DOES end. DNA does degenerate back into the elements that comprise it. Since there is no scientific data to indicate that 'elements' are alive (they don't self-replicate or divide), I would say that life has an end to it. If you are referring to consciousness, then that's a different question.... maybe! If consciousness depends upon a brain for existence (which I tend to believe due to the overwhelming hard evidence), then it has an end, too. If consciousness and bliss don't depend on the brain, then why is it that stimulating a brain with RF energy at a certain ELF frequency produces instantaneous bliss and so-called god consciousness? Why is it that stimulating the human brain with electrical impulses in certain 'centers' causes the same thing? If consciousness were truely independent from the brain, this would not be so, would it? BTW, I agree with your advice concerning 'listening to no one'.... Especially when it comes to being within earshot of has-been guru's that spout old hindu dogma or pretend to give you a 'gift' that isn't theirs to give (even if it did exist!). BTW, since the heart doesn't 'think,' it won't be saying much for you to 'listen' to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 18:05:17 (EST)
From: butch Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Some advice Message: Hi Sir David, I have always enjoyed you noble manner..But is it really true that M has had numerous affairs since he got married. Can you back this up? Also can you back up that he was a heavy drinker apart from the occasional cognac and cry on someones shoulder? Seems to me that quite a few people on this site need to put their money where their mouth is. Sincerely, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 19:30:55 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: butch Subject: Some advice Message: Thank you Bush for your comment, he'll be getting this one too, with your approval of course.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 20:55:52 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: butch Subject: Some advice Message: How can one back up anything on the internet? There are witnesses, including such people as Maharaji's lawyer and his regular staff who have said that he is a heavy drinker and fraternises with other women. I'm not a prude and I couldn't care less if Maharaji lives in this way. But people should know how he is in his off-stage life so that they can get a better idea of the man. Some people who come to mind who can back up my statements with further facts are JW, who mentioned Maharaji's lawyer being appalled by Maharaji's private habits; Jean-Michel who used to know Maharaji personally and also Bill Burke who has many stories to tell about Maharaji that would make your hair curl. Blanco: if you send Butch's post to Cesar then I'd suggest you send this one too. The translation, that is. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 22:32:30 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Some advice Message: the idea is to give Cesar a good glimpse of what the problem is... after all Democracy is pervading... my personal comment is that the first person around here I would like to see to put his money where his mouth is is M himself, my bet is his money would not survive his mouth... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 20:57:10 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: butch Subject: a thought Message: I used to wonder why he looked stoned out of his mind with huge puffy bags under his eyes and glistening half-closed eyes, but I chalked it up to genetics. What do you think, Butch? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 22:24:58 (EST)
From: Butch Email: None To: Runamok Subject: a thought Message: Runamok, I put it down to all that flying around the world, but you could be right although I haven't noticed him slurring his words. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 01:28:48 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Butch Subject: a thought Message: He's not all that coherent, grammatical, intelligent or otherwise particularly 'sober'. Whatever qualities he arguably has would not preclude him from being a substance abuser. When he asserted his control over our time by being hours late for an engagement that we dragged ourselves thousands of miles for, WHAT EXACTLY WAS HE DOING? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:10:31 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Absolutely correct, Run Message: Run: Gone are the days of portraying an alcoholic (for example) as some poor unshaven guy lying face down in the street. That is the 'Hollywood' picture of a 'drunk.' The reality is that an alcoholic is VERY hard to detect in the workplace or anywhere else. I'm sure this same statement would apply to any well-heeled individual abusing ANY substance. FOR PREMIES: NO, I'm NOT saying that M is a substance abuser, but by the same token, his on-stage demeanor CANNOT be used as a defense, either. If he were an abuser, you'd be the last to know. Only those closest to him would likely get the chance to know this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 00:05:28 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Mike Subject: Absolutely correct, Run Message: The idea that Rawatt was loaded for Millenium seems very reasonable, but I have no evidence whatsoever. The whole thing was an overblown festival which fell extremely short of its earth-changing promotional hype. The image of M having had a few is very gripping for me, struggling through his boyish metaphors while the world was watching the bizarre spectacle of him falling far short of his claimed abilities at manifesting the masses, not to mention flying saucers or whatever else. But those puffy eyed pictures might even be proof. I don't know where forensics is these days with puffy-eyes in pictures and marijuana. Personally, if I had declared myself messiah and leader to the UFO's with only 20,000 in the astrodome, I'd want a couple of belts before I went out there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 19:23:56 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Some good advice Message: THANK YOU Sir David!!!! Now I've got some work I am most pleased, posting here the translation for your reference before sending it...or if you prefer to send it yourself just tell me Thank you on behalf of Cesar... here is the translation, please give me the go ahead thanks Fecha : Domingo, Ene 31, 1999 a las 08:04:55 (EST) |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 20:45:41 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Blanco Subject: Some good advice Message: Thanks Blanco. That's good translation. Please email it to Cesar if you would and if he replies to you, you may post his reply/translation here or email it to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 22:15:45 (EST)
From: Blanco Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Some good advice Message: Its done Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 17:06:22 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Katie the Villian revisited Message: Not sure about starting a new thread for this, but... This recent outburst of OP is just too much. To me, it is so indicative of the premie think premie speak. And of cowards in general. Pick on the one who has been the nicest to you. Hey OP, you can pick on me if you want. I wont' answer you and I have no guilt about not answering you. Or I may, Or i may not. And if I do, I will most likely be nasty. Right out front and personal, since you seem to express you like it that way. I have been through this kind of an attack from 2 premie women. While I was a premie. Over the span of 95 to 97. DRIP DRIP The nicer, the more approachable you are, the more vulnerable. and if you are nice you'd damned well always be nice (their version) or they will turn on you and bite your (female version of balls) off. affrrgghh Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 17:37:45 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selene Subject: Katie the Villian revisited Message: cowards in general.Pick on the one who has been the nicest to you. Truer words were never spoken, Selene. Katie has always been more than fair with op here. Hey, op, is someone using you handle to write cruel and unfair posts to Katie? Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 17:38:01 (EST)
From: Just Got It Email: None To: Selene Subject: Katie the Villian revisited Message: The reason there are so many mentally unstable premies in the 90's: That is the last refuge for them. It's that or get in gear and face the world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 08:22:19 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Just Got It Subject: Birth of a new myth.... Message: The reason there are so many mentally unstable premies in the 90's: That is the last refuge for them. It's that or get in gear and face the world. A new sweeping ex-premie generalisation about premies that will, no doubt, very soon become established ex-premie folklore. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 14:07:36 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Birth of a new myth.... Message: Now now you KNOW I didn't mean you of course Actually I do know 2 stable ones. And they are even nice!! Your lord and master makes sweeping generalizations all the time. How is it that it doesn't bother you when he does it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 08:11:50 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Selene Subject: Birth of a new myth.... Message: Thanks Selene, Take care, though, you may even make me feel good about myself!! I'm glad you can apply the human quality of 'niceness' to a couple of premies. We may even be able to transcend this 'premie' and 'ex-premie' rubbish if some of your peers followed your courageous example. Kind regards Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 18:37:06 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Birth of a new myth.... Message: Back at ya Mel. I think we need to transcend when we can and for some reason I have always liked your posts. (but I confess I dont' read all of them, too busy being self absorbed, you know...) I really don't even know why I posted that 'myth' I was in a bad mood and it is unfair to generalize. But honestly, if you could see the remnants of the premie community here, you'd run back to Melborne so fast!!!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 03:48:51 (EST)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New URL for House of Drek Message: I've moved the House of Drek off of GeoCities. Advantage: probably faster, no popups, no ads. Please update your Bookmarks. click here for Roger's House of Drek for way off topic stuff Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 11:54:57 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Roger Drek Subject: a question Message: Call me gullible or call me naive, but please just honestly answer this question for me: Is that photo of Maharaji flipping exers the finger untouched or doctored up? I had heard about an alleged photo of him and some instructors doing something like this for the exers, and I just wanted to know if what I saw on your site was genuine or not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 12:41:25 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: a question Message: hi SHP - IMHO, from looking at the picture, it is doctored (i.e. a joke). I know what video you are talking about, though - two people here have posted about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 13:00:29 (EST)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: SHP Subject: answer Message: The House of Drek legal department has issued the following statement: All items on the House of Drek are presented for your consideration. Presently there is a very heated debate amongst the editors of HoD as to whether HoD should be more thorough in providing the thinking and analysis for its readers by placing a yellow Smilely Face icon next to items that are fiction, satire, or parody. However, the main objection to this concept is the clearly stated maindate in the HoD mission statement that HoD is to be a Smilely Face Free Zone. The Board of Directors will be meeting shortly to either ammend the mission statement to allow a Smilely Faces, which would have to be paid for, or reclassify these dissenting editors as surplus employees. This is further complicated by the desires of the sponsors of HoD. Because of this rather unpleasant situation everyone at the HoD offices, with the exception of workers on the 23rd and 25 floors, are wearing flak jackets and packing concealed weapons. A private security firm has been hired to provide around the clock security and bomb detection and removal services. The House of Drek regrets any inconvenience to its loyal subscribers and your monthly bill will be adjusted accordingly for any outages or poor quality content. Regardless of the problems that we encounter over this matter, we, at the House of Drek will continue to strive to provide the information that is needed to make this world a better place for all. click here for Roger's House of Drek for way off topic stuff Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 13:18:35 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Roger Drek Subject: answer Message: A little more information than I expected to such a simple question, Rog. You have given satire new meaning: sat=true, ire=anger, wrath. Being a caricaturist, I can appreciate a biting wit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 15:19:02 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: SHP Subject: THE answer... Message: shp: Take a really GOOD look at the shape of that finger; then you tell me.... he he he :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:46:03 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Mike Subject: THE answer...the finger Message: Yo Mike, 'shp: Take a really GOOD look at the shape of that finger; then you tell me.... he he he :-)' I did, ya know? But I have seen Maharaji with bandaids on his fingers and I have heard he works with tools alot on his cars, etc....so I really wasn't sure. Boy, do I feel SHEEPISH!!!;-) It reminded me of a beautifully etched or drawn likeness of Jesus I've seen with a huge roaring laugh apparently coming out of him. And it was so cool yet so unfamiliar, because we aren't used to seeing him like that from all the real somber shots. At first I was shocked, but now it just looks like some kids getting off on toying with computer graphics. How do the makers of that shot of Maharaji know for sure that's how he feels about them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 17:18:50 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: SHP Subject: Don't be sooo serious! Message: shp: It's a THUMB!!!!! he he he :-) That was an 'update.' The first picture had his finger on 'backwards' (e.g. inside facing out....REALLY FUNNY)! And before you ask, NO I didn't do it! The 'arteest' remains anonymous. I'm just pretty good at recognizing things that are 'wrong' with a picture. When I saw them, I just about passed-out laughing myself silly. It was a GREAT laugh! You said, 'At first I was shocked, but now it just looks like some kids getting off on toying with computer graphics. How do the makers of that shot of Maharaji know for sure that's how he feels about them?' All I can say is.... lighten up. In a strangely perverse way, I thought the pictures were appropriate. It almost dropped me (mentally) back to the times when M used to, supposedly, 'play' with us. I COULD actually picture him doing this and I would have laughed until I turned blue, if he had! Quite frankly, if there were a god, I would hope that this would be a MAJOR part of his/her personality! Catch you completely off-guard and do something totally rediculous (read that: hilarious)... ya know what I mean? On a more serious note, though, I've been hearing rumblings about the 'fu_k you' video that was supposedly produced. I haven't seen it, so I don't know if it exists. But that would be a different issue, anyway! All I can say is that I hope it made you laugh as hard as it did me. If it did, your sides still hurt, don't they? Mine do! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 16:30:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Roger Drek Subject: House of Drek Links Message: Roger: Excellent site. You're missing a link to David Lane's site, however. I think he has moved, and is no longer located on the ucsd.weber.edu server. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 17:12:18 (EST)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: House of Drek Links Message: I'll have to consider the David Lane site. After all, that's some pretty serious stuff. Also, since I have links to the serious sites like ex-premie.org... No, I should include it. Good idea. P.S. Scott gets a short answer because he is an ex-premie. I give premies like shp the long answer. Nah, you're ok shp. Like what you did with sat-tire. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |