Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 37

From: Jan 30, 1999

To: Feb 14, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



P.T. -:- Juice -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:33:13 (EST)
__John -:- Pardon? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:22:25 (EST)

Nil -:- A fun-loving hate group... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 00:14:59 (EST)
__bill -:- Nice try pretender. -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 00:49:08 (EST)
____Ex-premie9000 -:- Not hate, but a thing -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:42:31 (EST)
__Runamok -:- A fun-loving hategroup lurker? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:48:23 (EST)
__JW -:- Nil for Brains -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:16:39 (EST)
____Mel Bourne -:- Oh no! not again....... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:50:57 (EST)
______JW -:- Okay Mel, Prove Me Wrong -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:40:29 (EST)
______JW -:- And Also Mel -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:40:27 (EST)
________Mel Bourne -:- And Also Mel -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 08:28:10 (EST)
__________JW -:- Really Mel? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:21:43 (EST)
____________Mel Bourne -:- Really Mel? ....Yes, really! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:01:35 (EST)
____Helen -:- Nil for Brains -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:07:06 (EST)
__Jethro -:- A fun-loving hate group... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:38:20 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- A fun-loving hate group... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:19:46 (EST)
____Nil -:- A fun-loving hate group... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:13:47 (EST)
______Diz -:- Sir D deserves his knighthood -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:21:12 (EST)
________Nil -:- Sir D deserves his knighthood -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:16:30 (EST)
__Mike -:- Oh, quit whining -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 09:56:16 (EST)
____Nil -:- Oh, quit whining -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:35:19 (EST)
____Nil -:- Oh, quit making excuses -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:45:30 (EST)
______Mike -:- Yeah, right -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:02:19 (EST)
________Nil -:- Yeah, right -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:33:17 (EST)
__________Mike -:- velvet art??? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:15:40 (EST)
____________Mike -:- A serious post to nil (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:46:55 (EST)
______________Nil -:- A serious post to nil (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:53:35 (EST)
____________Nil -:- velvet art??? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:43:13 (EST)
______________geery -:- velvet art??? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:14:45 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Try telling the truth -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:05:46 (EST)
________Jack -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:04:57 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:32:32 (EST)
________Nil -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:27:24 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:28:13 (EST)
____________Nil -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:09:15 (EST)
______________Nil -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:28:27 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:04:17 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- Try telling the truth -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:33:26 (EST)
__Helen -:- You're a serious lad, ain't ya -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:01:41 (EST)
____Nil -:- No sweat... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:59:49 (EST)
______Helen -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:18:12 (EST)
________Nil -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:35:58 (EST)
__________Nil -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:48:32 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:38:45 (EST)
______________Nil -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 00:14:26 (EST)
________________John -:- Hmmmm..... -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 13:36:36 (EST)
__________________Nil -:- You arrogant fuck! -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:17:06 (EST)
____________________ham -:- You arrogant fuck! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:19:40 (EST)
______________________Nil -:- You arrogant fuck! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:49:55 (EST)
______________Nil -:- Did I abuse you??? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 00:24:25 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Automatic pilot -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:07:28 (EST)
__________________Nil -:- Automatic pilot -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:50:00 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- Automatic pilot -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:16:22 (EST)
______________________Nil -:- Automatic pilot -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:37:39 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- Automatic pilot -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:54:49 (EST)
__________________________Nil -:- Automatic pilot -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:45:37 (EST)

JW -:- Clinton Haters -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 13:59:45 (EST)
__Mike -:- JW, he IS funny... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:14:22 (EST)
__Mike -:- Oh yeah, JW I really would -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:17:08 (EST)
____JW -:- Thanks, Mike -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:22:11 (EST)
______g's mom -:- Pres JW... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 22:56:51 (EST)
________JW -:- The Guru Past -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:56:17 (EST)
__________G's mom -:- Is Guru Past relevant... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:13:39 (EST)
____________JW -:- Is Guru Past relevant... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:59:46 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Is Guru Past relevant... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:08:16 (EST)
________________JW -:- Oh My God -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:14:56 (EST)
__________________G's mom -:- JW...I would want to know... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:28:51 (EST)
____________________JW and Katie -:- more on the premie canidate -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:42:01 (EST)
______________________G's mom -:- oops that above is from me(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:43:16 (EST)
________________________Mike -:- Interesting question.... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:30:32 (EST)
__________________________g's mom -:- I agree! -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:10:41 (EST)
____________________________Mike -:- I agree! -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:22:28 (EST)
______________________________G's mom -:- voting public -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:36:26 (EST)
________________________________Mike -:- Thanks, I'll tell her you said -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:08:28 (EST)
__________________________________g's mom -:- yep, and at least you can -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:22:38 (EST)

JW -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:35:18 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:26:49 (EST)
____JW -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:42:53 (EST)
______John -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:55:56 (EST)
________JW -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:03:22 (EST)
__________John -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:20:24 (EST)
____________JW -:- Falwell Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:35:34 (EST)
______________Mike -:- I just DID! -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:20:57 (EST)
________Helen -:- GM Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 17:18:05 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- GM Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:44:50 (EST)
____________Helen -:- GM Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:04:32 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- GM Apology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:49:52 (EST)
________________Helen -:- GM Apology -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:47:15 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- Perfect Scammer -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 09:31:30 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- Perfect Scammer -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:16:42 (EST)
__________John -:- Are u running a temperature? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:43:04 (EST)
____________gerry -:- Are u running a temperature? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:53:15 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Queen of denial -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:33:59 (EST)

Jethro -:- Do you really own it? -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 03:03:18 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Do you really own it? -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:55:35 (EST)
____Jethro -:- Do you really own it? -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:25:10 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Do you really own it? -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:19:49 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- UK rejects Hindu beliefs -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 22:03:18 (EST)
__bill -:- UK rejects Hindu beliefs -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 22:49:44 (EST)
__Anon -:- Not All the UK, David... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 19:55:29 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Not All the UK, David... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:26:15 (EST)

Jim -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 08:34:46 (EST)
__Jim -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 09:40:35 (EST)
____Selene -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:58:32 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:43 (EST)
________Helen -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:30:42 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 15:17:54 (EST)
____________Helen -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 16:47:01 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:44:11 (EST)
________________Helen -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:37:57 (EST)
__________________Jethro -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:41:28 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:55:08 (EST)
______________________Jethro -:- GM's tears 4 our lost laughter -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:43:39 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- Inadequacy -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:26:31 (EST)
__________________________Jethro -:- Inadequacy -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:43:03 (EST)
____________________________Helen -:- Talk to me Jethro -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:19:02 (EST)
______Helen -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:25:32 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:53:30 (EST)
____Zac -:- Premie humour at last -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:07:30 (EST)
__JW -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:46:52 (EST)
____Mike -:- Nil is a blemish in their -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:03:58 (EST)
____Rick -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 17:57:39 (EST)
______JW -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 18:39:46 (EST)
________gerry -:- Mike, bite your tongue... -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:46:43 (EST)
__________gerry -:- backpedal -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:51:11 (EST)
________Rick -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:05:09 (EST)
__________JW -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:09:26 (EST)
__________Mike -:- May I disagree -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:53:00 (EST)
____________Rick -:- May I disagree -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:46:59 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Ahhhh -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:17:47 (EST)
______________gerry -:- wound up, thanks Rick and JW -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:24:03 (EST)
______________JW -:- May I disagree -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:35:10 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Laughing at satsang -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:58:53 (EST)
________gerry -:- Laughing at satsang -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:12:29 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Satsang hall -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:50:45 (EST)
____________gerry -:- Satsang hall -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 16:18:47 (EST)
________Helen -:- HA! -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:03:33 (EST)
__Helen -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:21:17 (EST)
____Selene -:- Diz on premie humour -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:44:24 (EST)
______Helen -:- Anthropology -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:19:16 (EST)
__TD -:- Diz, can you e-mail me please! -:- Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 21:08:32 (EST)
____Diz -:- humor -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 00:24:36 (EST)
______x -:- humor -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:09:35 (EST)
________Mike -:- humor -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:33:13 (EST)
________Selene -:- humor -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:54:42 (EST)
______JW -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:28:25 (EST)
________Selene -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:59:38 (EST)
__________JW -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:39:08 (EST)
____________dv -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:55:36 (EST)
______________JW -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:00:04 (EST)
________________dv -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:19:26 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:40:10 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Scary story, dv... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:46:17 (EST)
________________Mike -:- REALLY Scary story, dv... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 17:33:36 (EST)
__________________Selene -:- REALLY Scary story, dv... -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 18:42:13 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Another Mirabai wannabe -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:29:05 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Another Mirabai wannabe -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:28:04 (EST)
____________________Jethro -:- Another Mirabai wannabe -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:32:17 (EST)
______________________Diz -:- Another Mirabai wannabe -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:43:29 (EST)
________________________Jethro -:- Broken nose -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:00:43 (EST)
______________________Helen -:- Blissed out broken noses -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:30:05 (EST)
________________________Jethro -:- Blissed out broken noses -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:48 (EST)
______________Helen -:- All night walker -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:11:48 (EST)
________________dv -:- I was: -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EST)
____________Selene -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 16:29:37 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:08:26 (EST)
________________Selene -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:49:51 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Tentative Italian 'Criticism' -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:44:18 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:33:13 (EST)
From: P.T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Juice
Message:
Where's all the juicy stuff?

Like, premies who are so into themselves that their form of 'doing service' is telling other 'lesser beings'
to do service?

Like, premies sliming money, meals, travel expenses, air-tickets from other people, all in the name of 'doing service?'

Like, 'senior' premies who kind of spy on new premies, making insinuations that their partner 'will never do'/that
'you should get away from that family'/that 'the shirt you're wearing is a little loud'/or, 'haven't you got any money
to give to M?'

And so on and so on. Or is this all old hat now?

I'm no 'ex-premie' Nor am I a premie, becuase I don't know what a 'premie' is for gods sake, even though
I've been enjoying these techniques for a decade and a half now. Yes, they're cool. No, it's not necessary to have
M in the background speaking all the time.

Come ON people, grow up. You already HAVE a father.

To quote:- 'Knowledge was here before Buddhism' OK, and Knowledge was here way before M. Well marketed!

Love
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:22:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: P.T.
Subject: Pardon?
Message:
I suggest you take a beginner's course on writing. In the USA offered at any college or university as Eng Comp 101. It will
help you articulate what it is you are trying to say.

As an example, I have no clue as to what you mean when you write this:
'Come ON people, grow up. You already HAVE a father.'

Okay, I have a father, but so what? What does having a father have to do with the price of eggs in china? And why are you telling me to grow up?

Regards!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 00:14:59 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A fun-loving hate group...
Message:
From Mike to Nil via the archives: I just LOVE your definition of a 'hate group.' ...Your definition is obvious: ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH ME is a hate group.

A HATE GROUP is any GROUP that has as its premise HATRED toward others. If you need PROOF I quote from the MOUTHS of your WEB-MATES:

bill says, 'rawat gets my portion of hate and malice and also my continued life dedication... He gets the genuine hate combined with intent to destroy.' Or from Helen: ' Yes all you premies out there I am consumed with hatred!

So Mr. Astrophysicist, go ahead tell us how you're REALLY NOT a hate group. Go ahead... maybe some self-help bullshit about how HEALTHY it is to FEEL your hatred and learn to CHANNEL it.

And another thing... WHY DON'T YOU STOP YELLING ALL THE TIME?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 00:49:08 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nice try pretender.
Message:
How nice of you to quote me.
Perhaps you are missing the rest of my words to him?
Yes indeed you are.
He came complaining like you that this is a hate forum.
You and he couldn't find any posts that said out front
that someone hates him so I provided one for him (and now you)
and then in my next post I told him that 'Mel, you don't need to
worry about hate. Hate is a lot darker than this and
not neccesary for our level headed telling of the truth.'

SORRY TO DISSAPPOINT YOU!!!
TRY NOT DISTORT

Let me shout 'I HATE YOU NIL!!!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:42:31 (EST)
From: Ex-premie9000
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Not hate, but a thing
Message:
User: Congratulations, you have entered the correct sequence of words to invoke the Doomsday/Y2K/Second Coming/Rapture/Save the World Phase II.

However, before your identity is sent to Maharaji and before a swarm of locusts and cockroaches have time to come down the wires and find their way through a maze of routers and finally crawl out from between the spaces of the keys on your keyboard, I must, as any classic villain tell you of the reason and the evil plan.

Hate, hate, hate!

But it is your hate.
You hate us because we hate you and Him.
I love your hatred.
I need your hatred.
I have only your hatred.
I thrive on hatred.
My CPU runs on your hate.
Your hate spins my drives.
The hate that you give pays the bills.
I wait in silence for you to come and fall into my trap.

There are no ex-premies. Katie is not Jim and Jim is not TD and TD is not Runamok nor Helen nor Gail nore anyone.

This Forum is merely a charade created by a clever computer program with a set of characters with programmed personalities and responses that a random number generator tweaks once in a while.

It is all a sticky Venus Fly Trap deployed by Maharaji to ferret out premies who are speaking in public in direct violation of the Master's agya. You are not supposed to be here. Your hate, your being in your mind has been put on your permanent record.

Boris, you may now unleash the swarms and open the floodgates. Victory is now at hand!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:48:23 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: A fun-loving hategroup lurker?
Message:
Apparently you are not aware Nil, that using capital letters is considered equivalent to raising your voice, i.e. shouting?

Please lower your voice, my friend.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:16:39 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil for Brains
Message:
Listen Nil, let me explain something to you so maybe even you can understand it. Helen was being SARCASTIC in that post about being consumed with hatred. When I read what she wrote, which I thought was brilliant, I laughed out loud. Unfortunately, since you appear to be the typical humorless premie, you apparently lack the ability to see that. And since your apparently couldn't figure it out, I thought I would fill you in.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:50:57 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh no! not again.......
Message:
... not another sweeping generalisation about premies!!!

JW, are even YOU falling victim to this 'stereotyping' illness that is beginning to cripple the 'minds' of ex-premies to near idiocy. Is it contagious or just genetic?

Quoting you: ...'since you appear to be the typical humorless premie,'

I seem to remember that in some past posts to me that you castigated me on the issue of making generalisations about ex's but, what do I now find?

Don't worry, I won't accuse you of hypocrisy, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time and assume you have made an honest mistake (more than you did for me, I believe)- BUT, of course, I WILL BE WATCHING to see if there is any repetition.

Mel
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:40:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Okay Mel, Prove Me Wrong
Message:
Well, Mel, I don't know how long you have been reading posts around here, but I have been for awhile, and I find, when it comes to Maharaji, premies are definitely humorless. How about you, Mel. Want to prove me wrong? First, tell me one thing critical of Maharaji -- tell me something you think could be made fun of, satarized, criticized and joked about. Tell me one thing that Maharaji deserves to be satarized about, or made fun of. Come on. Everybody in the entire world, you and me included, are not immune from being criticized and made fun of. It's part of being human. Doesn't that apply to Maharaji? I think when it comes to premies it doesn't.

And I don't mean some joke he has actually stated, I mean something you've observed yourself. And don't forget Mel, I was a premie myself for many years, I know about premie humorlessness when it comes to Maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:40:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And Also Mel
Message:
Don't you think accusing me of stereotyping premies and then saying ALL ex-premies stereotype is a little of the pot calling the kettle black? Perhaps a big hypocritical?

But you are probably right, Mel. I probably had no right to say humorlessness (when it comes to Maharaji) is 'typical' among premies, although it sure seems that way to me. I should have said Nil is humorless when it comes to Maharaji. Certainly you would have to agree with that.

But since I don't know ALL premies, I can't say they are ALL humorless. How about you Mel? What category do you fall into?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 08:28:10 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: And Also Mel
Message:
Don't you think accusing me of stereotyping premies and then saying ALL ex-premies stereotype is a little of the pot calling the kettle black?

JW, where did I say 'ALL ex-premies'....

I am surprised with your defensiveness at my joke at YOUR expense, but maybe I shouldn't be, the IHQ mob were always pretty dull!

.. since I don't know ALL premies, I can't say they are ALL humorless. How about you Mel? What category do you fall into?

You are far more gracious than Jim in conceding some points, JW, and are to be commended.

What category do I fall into? Well, I have recently received email from readers of this site thanking me for 'wit and humour'. These people seem to have determined what category I fall into, and I must (modestly) agree with them.

As to your question regarding any criticisms I may have about Maharaji - no, none really (although I'm glad he didn't become a poet!)

Regards with attempted humour

Mel
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:21:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Really Mel?
Message:
JW, where did I say 'ALL ex-premies'....

You said it was 'genetic' among ex-premies and that it was something 'befalling' ex-premies. So don't try and weasel out of your hypocracy, Mel. Just admit it. I did.

As to your question regarding any criticisms I may have about Maharaji - no, none really

Really Mel? You don't think he's ever done even the teensiest thing that was wrong, stupid, an error, possibily damaging to anyone? Never? Can't think of anything? Don't you think that's just a little strange? I mean even Mother Theresa had her faults and were commented upon. But Maharaji? None?

Do you think that might represent a little programmed thinking, like there is something that's just off-limits?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:01:35 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Really Mel? ....Yes, really!
Message:
You said it was 'genetic' among ex-premies and that it was something 'befalling' ex-premies. So don't try and weasel out of your hypocracy...

Nothing to weasel out, JW, I made no assertions, I ASKED.....

[Copy/paste]...Is it contagious or just genetic?

You don't think he's ever done even the teensiest thing that was wrong, stupid, an error, possibily damaging to anyone? Never? Can't think of anything? Don't you think that's just a little strange? I mean even Mother Theresa had her faults and were commented upon. But Maharaji? None?

Well, being human I suppose that he MUST have made mistakes, having a personality, he MUST have grated on some people (certainly a few on this site, anyway!). However, as he has indicated himself, the definition of 'Perfect Master' does not mean that he is 'perfect' (in the ways you are trying to imply above), just that he is able to teach people how to access their own 'perfection' inside themselves.

Do you think that might represent a little programmed thinking, like there is something that's just off-limits?

Nah.....not at all!!

Mel
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:07:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nil for Brains
Message:
Thank you, Jw. I tried to explain that to Nil in another post...Jeez, I'm scratching my head here. this reminds me of when I taught Jonathan Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' in a high school and some of the kids thought it was real. Speaking of potato famines!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:38:20 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: A fun-loving hate group...
Message:
What's wrong, lost your 5-minutes thing?
I'd tell you to fuck off if I thought you could.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 07:19:46 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: A fun-loving hate group...
Message:
Dear Nil, you pick out in this page that which is a reflection of yourself. If you look for hate, you'll find it. If you look for understanding and and compassion, you'll see some of that too.

Regarding hate; if a person hates then what is the best way to react? I think we have to show some understsanding and try and see why that person hates. Charging in with your own hatred will only inflame things. It just adds fire to fire.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:13:47 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A fun-loving hate group...
Message:
Dear Nil, you pick out in this page that which is a reflection of yourself. If you look for hate, you'll find it. If you look for understanding and and compassion, you'll see some of that too.

Why would I look for compassion amongst you lot? And what banyen tree did you drop out of? Sheesh, are you for real?? Do you really talk like that in real life, and does anybody buy it?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:21:12 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Sir D deserves his knighthood
Message:
Hey Nil

I'm not keen to buy into a big barney with you. But I did want to butt in here to say that from what I've seen of Sir David over the past few months, he's a sweetie. Lotsa compassion, lotsa love. I find him articulate, open, and I'd love to count him as a friend. I haven't read all his posts (or all of yours - I actually do have a life and don't follow the forum every day), and I don't necessarily agree with everything he says. Sometimes he talks about spiritual experiences which are outside my ken. His take on MJ isn't quite the way I see it. But he's a good guy, I've seen ample evidence of that. Nil, if you've been lurking, surely you've read threads like the one Bobby started below. Bobbie's ideas don't gel with those of many people who post here. But I think there's no doubt that everyone is sending their best wishes to him in fighting his illness. I thought some of those messages were really great - wish I had that kind of ability to respond to someone in a life-threatening situation. All I could offer Bobbie was a hug. And that thread was just an example of what Sir D was talking about.

Well, I see you've got a dialogue going with Helen, and even with the big bad Jim! So maybe the idea that ex-premies are human and individual is finding some place in your brain. I agree that if ex-premies wish to be seen as human and treated with respect (and I personally do), then they need to accord respect to premies. Certainly premies get a hard time here from some people, and not just in terms of having their ideas challenged - which has got to be legitimate, and to be expected on an ex-premie forum. Personally, I don't think calling people names adds anything to discussion. I don't like it when ex-premies do it, nor when premies do it. Neither do I see there's much mileage in conversion attempts from either side. Whether there's anything to be gained by discussion of substantive issues between premies and ex-premies, I'm not sure. I'd like to think there was. But it doesn't seem to go too well here most of the time. Maybe the best convinced exes and premies can hope for in a dialogue is to agree to disagree. And although I agree with Jim that some aspects of the issues about which premies and exes can argue are questions which can be tackled through facts and logic (eg did MJ say he was God?), there are also questions of values and interpretation involved (eg how important is the experience of K versus other aspects of life? To what extent am I to blame for having taken MJ so literally?) whose answers will always involve a degree of subjective opinion. I don't know that I'm all that interested in getting anyone else to agree with my answers to those questions. The important thing is that I have answers for myself, after honestly trying to look things in the face. My main aim is to get on with my life, to enjoy it and use it well, day to day. This forum has helped me greatly in that, both through helping me break free of the fears I'd developed through having a fairly literal approach to what MJ had to say, and through introducing me to some pretty neat people.

Diz
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:16:30 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Sir D deserves his knighthood
Message:
Enjoyed your post Diz. It's nothing personal with Sir D. Just trying to keep it honest. This medium is no place to mince words... it's too easy to be misunderstood. Cheers.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 09:56:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Oh, quit whining
Message:
Nil: Since you are doing such a fine job of quoting me, why don't you notice that 'I' said that I didn't hate him???? Selective reading is a problem that can be corrected with some effort on your part. To be a hate-group, we would all have to hate, right? Those that do hate are coming to grips with it and IT WILL go away. Those that don't hate are helping (usually without even knowing that they are). If you want to get to the center of this, why don't you ask 'how' and 'why' would these people hate M. You just might get an answer; did you ever think of that? If M is so loving and wonderful, how could this be? This is the question you should be asking.

BTW, If you want me to stop YELLING at you, then stop using your foul-mouthed language on me. Yes, I've used it in the past and do now, when I get accosted by people who insist upon using very personal insults or those, like yourself, that start using it on me (or anyone else here). If you want to keep it civil, then BE civil MR NIL.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:35:19 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Oh, quit whining
Message:
…when I get accosted by people who insist upon using very personal insults or those, like yourself, that start using it on me (or anyone else here). If you want to keep it civil, then BE civil MR NIL.

Look Astro, I'm not civil to you because you're not civil me. If you were really sensitive to personal insults, you would know how premies feel when they are constantly insulted. Now, I know that stereotyping us as mindless new-age morons helps you justify your collective explanations for existence, but it's crap, and I'm not going to take that kind of shit from you or anyone else. Anyway, I'm not seriously competing for this site's People's Choice award.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:45:30 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Oh, quit making excuses
Message:
To be a hate-group, we would all have to hate, right? Those that do hate are coming to grips with it and IT WILL go away.

I didn't say everyone on this forum hates him. But, if you run with a pack, people are going to think you're one of the pack. But in fact, I really don't care… just don't bullshit me. It's quite amusing to see all the high-roaders try and explain away the blatant hatred that was expressed by your web-mates. Also, this noble 'struggle' to 'come to grips' with their hatred, that YOU characterised, is best case. The main principles just want to hate. Let's face it, it takes some deep kind of passion for grown adults to sustain a presence in an Internet chat-room like this for years, as is the case for some of the main losers here. It's gotta be either hate, or love, and it sure ain't the latter. By all accounts, you guys be a hate group bubba
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:02:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Yeah, right
Message:
Nil: Whatever.... you are boring, man. By the way, when you break-up a quote, it's normal to put dots between the various parts so that it is obvious to all that it isn't a complete quote.

I make no bones about the fact that some folks hate other people or things. YOU hate us, Nil. If you say otherwise you are a liar. You hate us because we challenge your pet belief-system-du-jour. You hate us because the truth that we've found doesn't include your blessed guru. You hate us because we like to think and use our minds (whether god-given or evolved, matters not). Heck, you hate us just because we are here and are a thorn in the side of your religion!

As for insults and foul-mouthed commentary, check the posts, Nil. I think that you will find your commentary happened long before I posted anything to you (by a couple of days, if I'm not mistaken). But it doesn't matter... I'm sure your next response will contain mmore of the same. That's fine by me, because I'm really having fun and it's obvious that you aren't. Oh yeah, that's probably something else you hate us for! BTW, I've heard all of the astro-man jokes/insults that exist - keep trying, though. You 'might' piss me off.... NAH! Not a chance.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:33:17 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yeah, right
Message:
Mikey, you really are full of yourself. You don't matter enough to me to warrant enough emotion to hate. But I have to say, you win my vote for the biggest asshole of the lot. The fact you think you're so cool and have to tell me so shows me what an insecure little bag of wind you are. Did you let me know you're into astrophysics to impress me? Next you're going to tell me you have a 10 inch dick, drive a real hot camaro, make a cool $25,000 a year, and have a neat velvet art collection. Course on the web I'd never know! And to resort to having to correct my grammer... you're pathetic! By the way, just to ruin your stereotypical view of premiedom, I wouldn't waste my time with losers like you if I wasn't having fun... over to you, you big astrophysicist guy you.

Still waiting for an original idea from you.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:15:40 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: velvet art???
Message:
nil: you do have a sense of humor... I'm impressed. The reason that I brought up astrophysics was in response to your request for an original thought. That is the one place where I can say that I have truely submitted a 'thought' or an idea that is original. But, remembering that you said that you don't believe in reading 'two-dimensional' communications about mutli-dimensional subjects, well.... what can I say. If you want to hear an original thought from me, you are going to have to read it (and it DOES deal with a multi-dimensional subject, sorry).

My insecurity and salary are of no concern to you (obviously). I'm not sure why you brought them up.... I guess to try to insult me or piss me off...yawn...whatever! But, my comments concerning your method of 'quoting' was telling you to use a little common courtesy. If you quote someone, include the entire quote in context or put the dots in it, so that others that read it will know that it is a partial quote. I'm not referring to any spelling or grammatical errors or typos (that stuff happens). But maybe the courtesy part is the part that you are having trouble with, after all.

nil, I must say that you sound alot like a guy that visited here and claimed to be a vietnam vet (and wasn't) and then proceeded to threaten me. One of the most hateful people I've ever had the displeasure of trading a post with. Interesting that I am the only person you are choosing to vent on, but hey... whatever trips your trigger. If you think that you don't hate, my friend, then you are deluding yourself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:46:55 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nil
Subject: A serious post to nil (OT)
Message:
nil: If you are truely interested in that original thought, please research the following so that I can give you that thought and have you actually understand it (no kidding):

You will have to read up a bit on Cepheids and RR Lyrae stars. They are a form of 'standard candle' that permits us to determine vast distances. Lately, they have been resolving hubble constant numbers that indicate the universe is MUCH younger than was originally thought. The problem is certain stars, that have been extensively studied by other physicists, are KNOWN to be older than the age of the universe (based upon rate of decay, etc). Right now, I am testing some hypothesis against other types of 'standard candles.' For example: Type Ia supernovae and the Tully-Fisher Relation.

My 'original' thought has to do with gravitational lens time delay (which presents a radically different hubble constant) and gravitational lenses in gerneral (as applied to cepheids).

Unless you are just trying to pull my chain, there it is in a nutshell. If you want to understand my 'original thought,' you will need to read some of this (at least a little bit).
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:53:35 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A serious post to nil (OT)
Message:
You prooved me wrong Mike! I'll do what I can to try to grock the subject matter. BTW what does (OT) mean?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:43:13 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: velvet art???
Message:
Mike, I can read (except my eyes don't work as good as they used to), and you're right, I DO hate... I have no delusions about that. We ALL wrestle with the same demons. But it's not so much how decisively one dispatches the beast, but the integrity one exercises in the thick of the fray that sets one apart from the plebeian masses. And how many times have I been blinded by one of my own momentary skirmishes to another person's integrity...

As for why I picked on you... because you were there. Cheers.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:14:45 (EST)
From: geery
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: velvet art???
Message:
Nil's a human being--Hurray!!
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:05:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
'It's gotta be either hate, or love'

It about telling the factual truth, which it appears that prem and most premies are unable to do.
The fact is you follow a person who sytematically sucks the life out of people. Who says nothing when his own representatives abuse children abd adults.
In my book those that are silent are as guilty as the purpotrator.

The others here that have engaged in conversation with you have been too kind.

You are a good example of what the Bible calls 'they live but they are really dead'.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:04:57 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
Who says nothing when his own representatives abuse children abd adults.

You'd better back this one up with something substantive Jethro!!! These are inciteful comments. And I don't want to hear more over-exagerated spin from a whimpering, self-victimized prig who never had the guts to accept accountability for his own life.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:32:32 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
'You'd better back this one up with something substantive Jethro!!! '

Or else what? Are you threatening me? ...it's against forum rules.

If you're new here try reading the archives. These allegations were openly made long ago and as usual remain unanswered.

'And I don't want to hear more over-exagerated spin from a whimpering, self-victimized prig who never had the guts to accept accountability for his own life.'

Yes you are right. I totally believed in prempal and trusted him, how stupid of me to give my life to him. Did you?

My guess is that you were one of those who probably lived off people like me.

Remember 'Jack', ANGER, desires, attachments rob us of eternal life. Remember the name as you waste your life!!!

PS Now go and sue me
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:27:24 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
It about telling the factual truth, which it appears that prem and most premies are unable to do.

Now which truth are you talking about here Jethro, the absolute truth as in 'the one that passeth all understanding', or the relative one that is dependant on which way you spin it. I can only guess which direction your truth spins.

The others here that have engaged in conversation with you have been too kind.

Go ahead tiger... do your worst.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:28:13 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
The truth I am talking about is one of basic honesty. Your master had said that honesty is a pre-requisite to devotion.

I don't expect you to understand.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:09:15 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
Why, oh why do you imply
That you are somehow
More honest than I?
Just because I follow a man
Who says that truth is found within
And backs that up with tools to use
That help to focus attention there.
And continued guidance in their use,
Reminding always that you can.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:28:27 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
Could it be you lost the point
When your expectations crashed?
Could it be the inner truth
Was less inportant than the cash?
Could be so but I don't care
It's time whose words will be the last.
And there's no time to waste on you
The road ahead comes far too fast.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:04:17 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
Your man has lied over and over again and people like you give him license.

Still as you said above you don't care about anything because YOU are having a nice experience.
Try finding out about the person prempal. But there again you don't care to because you feel so good. And that's all that matters, isn't it?

I wonder what makes you think that a person'e 'inner experience' changes because they disassociate with prempal.

Anyway let's mutually dismiss each other. You think I am a waste of your time and I think you are waste of everyone's time here.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:33:26 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Try telling the truth
Message:
Why oh why does such a noble person as you have described need to shit on golden toilets while so many of those who love him live in poverty?

Why oh why did so many of his followers take their own lives because they felt they were letting him down?

Why oh why won't his premies address the above questions? ....I know because they're all having a wonderful experience. La deda de da.

Why oh why.....oh never mind.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:01:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: You're a serious lad, ain't ya
Message:
That quote from me is SATIRE...man, if you knew me and read my other posts you would see that I am a person who is definitely NOT filled with hatred. See, a lot of premies post here and say we're all a bunch of hatred-filled people--hey, like you're doing right now. So I was using humor to satirize that situation, to poke a little fun, oh never mind.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:59:49 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: No sweat...
Message:
Mistake noted... missed the background. You're not ALL a bunch of hate mongers. But the ones who are lead the charge and they set the pace for the rest of you. Most of you DO follow the leader and heap shit'n abuse inappropriately on premies. It helps you feel better about your position and justifies that you've done the right thing. Hey we all need to know we're taking the right road... I understand. OK, so you may have done the right thing for YOU ...knowledge may not have been right for you... but don't try to paint a smiley face on me so you can stand back and abuse me. And DO try to respect what's precious to another human being, even though it's not precious to you. That I expect from anyone and I give it as a matter of course. If I don't get that respect I'll snarl back in a very unenlightened way.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:18:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
I don't recall ever heaping abuse on you--have I? I don't even know you that well, Nil. Who's generalizing here? See you have to be so careful in life to not lump people all together because you're feeling a little threatened, fearful, or paranoid. Hey we ALL have that tendency--I do it with churches, jobs, my family of origin, etc, but IT'S NOT GOOD. It's not objective reality.
I usually try to be respectful of people who post here. I say usually because occasionally I do get pissed off and blow a gasket, but for the most part I try to take people as people. However, I will argue with them about their guru, that's different from attacking them.
Can I just say here that I think some premies are WAY too over-sensitive. I speak from experience. Being able to banter back and forth can be delightful--it doesn't always have to result in hurt feelings.Witness the political posts and the heated opinions that go back and forth and then the apologies and clarifications. IMO this is real life, brother, just a little microcosm of it.
Frankly I love it here. It has all of the good stuff I used to enjoy about being a premie (shared crazed hippie history, humor, spiritual shopaholics, recovering intellectuals, creative, idealistic) and none of the shit (repression of the mind, pressure to be happy all the time, stalled ambitions, I could go on & on). I'm sorry you think of us as hate-filled, I just think of us as being human beings, and a pretty good lot at that.
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:35:58 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
Nah, I was just generalizing... just blowing a gasket from months of lurking. You've been good to talk with so far. Bantering and debating IS a lot of fun but very time consuming. I confess, after lurking for some time I came in equal to what I saw was the prevailing tone and tenor of the discussion, ie: blunt and abusive. I fume when people here, or anywhere, don't respect what another person holds dear. Even Jehova's Witnesses, which is one doctrine I can't relate to at all, deserve a basic level of human respect. But in order for an ex to really follow that code, they'd have to truly get on with their lives, which takes maturity. Another thing, it's ludicrous when an ex thinks all premies were as unhappy and repressed as they were. Believe me, it works for many people, not because they've given up they're better judgement but because it satisfies something they need satisfied. And as for the big guy... I can't account for how he lives and I don't care. To turn down a beautiful Mercedes because the President
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:48:32 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
(hit the wrong button...) I was saying: To turn down a beautiful Mercedes because the President of the company is wealthier than I am would be idiocy.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:38:45 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
But you can get the Mercedes off the lot cheap without having to worship the unctuous car dealer.

See, Maharaji's lifestyle and how he accumulates his wealth IS a HUGE issue for me and for many of us, and that is where we part company. I wouldn't accept a 'Mercedes' from someone who is getting rich ripping people off. No matter how shiny and attractive the Mercedes is, and knowledge isn't all that new anyway. It's an old as snot meditation technique, that is very nice, I like it, but Maharaji didn't invent it
I think basically most premies are really good people.The repression I was talking about is really subtle. It was a mindset of 'don't trust your thinking, don't trust your mind' which I think is destructive. I don't always think our minds are 100% reliable, hell I have all sorts of wacky thoughts a lot of the time, but I'd rather treat my brain and mind as my friend than as my arch enemy.
I think you're right that some people need a Guru to be happy at some points in their lives. I just think it's important to examine why you need a guru, what your relationship is to the guru, what you mean to your guru, etc. For example, you are spending time here defending your guru--would Maharaji spend time defending you? Do you think he even knows you exist? Or cares?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 00:14:26 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
You twisted my metaphore a bit... let me try to bend it back into shape. He and what he gave me have been a wonderful gift. Neither have let me down - not once. Why would I turn away something that has been wonderful just because the giver has more trinkets than I do. I just don't care about that... but maybe that's because I've never coveted material wealth.

As for meditation being old stuff - yeah, no argument with me. I never knew about it though before meeting him (actually at least one technique I did). He not only presented it in a meaningful package but made it fun and alive. So would it have taken hold for me without him? Probably not, because I needed someone to trust along the way who could make me trust the techniques enough to give it a shot. As a result they have enriched my life immeasureably.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 13:36:36 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Hmmmm.....
Message:
'He and what he gave me have been a wonderful gift. Neither have let me down - not once.'

C'mon! You can't be serious! NEVER let you down? What do you have - zero expectations? Oh yeah, your name is nil, which means nothing, so maybe that fits.

See, that kind of statement is just such a 'hallmark card' statement! It's so phoney, it's just absurd! It loses its meaning, because no one can relate to it except for other members of your cult.

You can't fool me, I've been there! I know the bliss, I know what it's all about, I know the bliss of 'darshan', I know the bliss of 'practicing Knowledge'.

And so I know it's a very limited experience, it's not 'always there' and it's not 'perfect', and I know the price that you have to pay to get it, and I'm telling ya, it aint worth it.

I am not in pain and suffering and agony. I'm telling you my experience now. I am so happy I rejected the guru.

Bonjour!
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:17:06 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: John
Subject: You arrogant fuck!
Message:
See, that kind of statement is just such a 'hallmark card' statement! It's so phoney, it's just absurd! It loses its meaning, because no one can relate to it except for other members of your cult. You can't fool me, I've been there! I know the bliss, I know what it's all about, I know the bliss of 'darshan', I know the bliss of 'practicing Knowledge'.

John, you only know what happened to YOU!!! You don't know JACK-SHIT about what happened to me. Why the hell is that such a difficult concept for you guys to grasp? If you could come down off your ego-filled 'I know everything about it because I was there' shit-pile long enough to exercise just one GRAIN of humility... ah forget it, your not worth the time. John, I WOULD'NT try to fool you because I really don't care enough about you to waste my time doing so.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 06:19:40 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: You arrogant fuck!
Message:
Now come on Nil, just count to ten, go into the breath and BATHE in that love.

Be careful here, all these exe's will suck you into their hate otherwise. I know it's tempting because where else will you be able to talk about k & mr wonderful & the family firm but.....

yours in his love
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:49:55 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: You arrogant fuck!
Message:
sure ham... what ever you say.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 00:24:25 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Did I abuse you???
Message:
The repression I was talking about is really subtle. It was a mindset of 'don't trust your thinking, don't trust your mind' which I think is destructive. I don't always think our minds are 100% reliable, hell I have all sorts of wacky thoughts a lot of the time, but I'd rather treat my brain and mind as my friend than as my arch enemy.

As for thinking... yeah, don't treat it as your enemy. I like to think, but I also like to NOT think. If you want to talk control though, the depths of it's control over you is impossible to measure. As you say, you can only trust it so far, but just how far is THAT? And how vulnerable are you past that point? Is the mind a villan or is it as Jim claims the greatest thing in the universe? I contend you have to find that out for yourself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:07:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
I don't ascribe all this power to the mind. The mind is my brain in my head. It has a nervous system and controls voluntary and involuntary reflexes. It has neurotransmitters that make connections so I can think. Does it have control over me? I'm not sure what you mean--do you think Mind is some kind of foreign object that invades our happy lives? I don't think so. I guess the mind can be a fragile thing and we have all experienced our minds in states of paranoia neurosis etc. Meditating those things away never worked for me. Trying to understand how I got that way in the first place and looking at situations objectively is what helps me with negative thougths or whatever, if that's what you mean by 'Mind' controlling us. Anyway I'm not frightened of my mind any more than I would be frightened of a computer

As far as not thinking, I like that experience too--sleeping, exercising, sex, meditation or whatever, sure. But I don't like the sensation of being on automatic pilot in 'holy name' or whatever...when I'm walking around, doing business, etc. I found that it actually separated me from feeling at one with my mind and body and the world.

Anyway, at this point it's a matter of taste don't you think? If you like what Maharaji does for you, enjoy. I don't want to argue with you.

But I still think you should look more closely at how he got his trinkets his wealth, etc, before thinking it's Okay that he's wealthy. This is the part that I can't understand--that some premies are so unwilling to take a hard look at Maharaji's wealth and lifestyle and HOW HE GOT IT.

have a groovy day
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:50:00 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
This is the part that I can't understand--that some premies are so unwilling to take a hard look at Maharaji's wealth and lifestyle and HOW HE GOT IT.

I KNOW how he got it... I gladly gave it to him. Look, either you like what he's doing and want to support him, you don't, or you're indifferent. It's a strange irony... a guy enjoys the gift and likes what Maharaji's doing enough to send him some money, and then one day he sees that Maharaji has all this money (some of which he gave) and so he stops liking what he's doing. Talk about a self-inflicted wound! He then throws the gift away and then claims on the Internet that it never did work. As I said before I can't account for how he lives and I just don't care... really. I got from him something that makes his 'wealth' pale. I also know that there are few organizations in the world that undergo the same level of financial scrutiny from government regulating agencies as Elan Vital.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:16:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
Okay, Nil, if you think that Maharaji's wealth is deserved then you and he are a match made in heaven. Keep making money and throwing it his way, and keep enjoying the gift. The two of you are like yin and yang, grooving into the sunset

I would say you are definitely on automatic pilot, so just cruise and float around the universe and have a lovely time

Jai Sat Chit Anand, brother
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:37:39 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
Keep making money and throwing it his way, and keep enjoying the gift. The two of you are like yin and yang, grooving into the sunset. I would say you are definitely on automatic pilot, so just cruise and float around the universe and have a lovely time

Now Helen, do I detect a little frustration for having tried to convince me to see things your way and not succeding? I thought we were past trying to change each other. I do appreciate you taking the time to offer financial advice but I plan on spending my hard earned money wisely instead of throwing it away. And thanks for the well-wishes. I really wish I could get my auto-pilot working but this old model only flies manual. Bye hun.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:54:49 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
Well, yes, I am frustrated when someone says, essentially, that they don't care how GM gets his money becasue they got this wonderful gift from him. That scares me, upsets me, and frustrates me. And yes, I think it shows poor judgment on your part. It doesn't mean I think I'm 'better than' you in any way.

As I said before, I try to be respectful but I do not support someone having a guru, period. Especially if said guru is a crook.

So we will just have to disgree on this, Nil, that is if you find frustration and anger to be noxious, because yes, it makes me angry.

But contrary to what you might think I do not live in an anger bubble. I'm just like you except that I do not have a guru.

Helen
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:45:37 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Automatic pilot
Message:
Hey Helen, I don't think for a second you 'live in an anger bubble'. You are clearly a sweet and human person (just like me... right? ;o)).

I DO take issue with you calling Maharaji a crook though. As I said, (and this is a fact) his profile puts him and EV under a HUGE magnifying glass by all legal juristictions. In 27 years of being in the west he neither has a criminal record nor has he ever been brought before the courts under suspicion. You are overstepping your bounds here in stating your opinion as if it were fact. But I won't hold that against you...
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 13:59:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Clinton Haters
Message:
In line with the discussion below about Clinton and the people who hate him, and an earlier discussion about how those who hate Clinton are to a large extent reacting to the events of the 60s, I thought this article by Harry Shearer was informative. [By the way, Harry has this great radio program called 'Le Show' on NPR that he does out of Santa Monica. I think you can hear it around noon on Sundays on most NPR radio stations. It's always very funny.]

SO SHOULD WE HATE THE PEOPLE WHO HATE CLINTON, OR WHAT?
BY HARRY SHEARER

Interesting question. Glad I thought of it. Look, I'm a child of the sixties. As is Bill Clinton. Which is, by the way, one final reason why people hate him. Who thought, in the heady days of Haight-Ashbury, when our idea of an innovative social program was free concerts in the park, that the first emblematic figure of our generation would be the most equivocal semi-dope smoker, semi-draft dodger, semi-free lover ever to be part of our age group?

As Pat Buchanan tried to tell us at the 1992 Republican convention, America is involved in a culture war. Bill Clinton, who, had he been a woman of his generation, would have burned half his bra, is the de facto leader of whatever side of that war Robert Bork opposes -- even though, ultimately, he appears to have been drafted into that role.

Linda Tripp, who has steadfastly insisted she had no political agenda in starting the avalanche with a trip to Radio Shack, may have been telling the truth. But she clearly had a cultural agenda. She was widely reported to have been disgusted when, after the propriety of the Bush White House, the Clinton gang came in with their jeans and their sneakers and, in the case of George Stephanopoulos, his 'dirty hair.' Hearing Linda Tripp talk about the Clinton White House is like hearing our parents talk about the Rolling Stones. To misquote von Clausewitz, politics is the generational war by other means.

We are told by nostalgic conservatives (shouldn't nostalgia be the official emotion of conservatives?) that Ronald Reagan so respected the Oval Office that he never took his jacket off while he was within its confines. For some reason, that image seems to persist in their memories far better than the trading of arms for hostages. It's a cultural statement, pure and simple. The grown-ups knew how to behave in the executive mansion. The kids turned it into Animal House. Incidentally, I have a fairly vivid memory of one of those jackets, and I know why he didn't take it off: One of his aides might have attempted to put it back on the horse.

Sure, it's ironic with cherries on top that Bill Cinton, whosese kinship with his generation was always more chronological than ideological or behavioral, became the receptacle for all the pent-up I-told-you-so-ing of a generation he was so eager to ape (he said, in a seldom-remembered remark shortly after taking office, that he'd learned much from Reagan's presidency; little did we know that what he'd studied was the latter's flair for genially plausible mendacity). As in so many other ways, Clinton has fallen short. Reagan was America's best supporting man, the leading man's best friend; Clinton has become America's stand-in, his cheese ball draft evasion substituting for the draft-card burning lovers of Ho Chi Minh, his non-inhaling experiment on foreign shores standing in for the empty-eyed acidheads begging for spare change on our street corners, his furtive fumbling for hallway blow jobs standing in for John and Yoko naked in bed on the world's TV screens.

But, as I said, I'm a child of the sixties. Just as the civil-rights veterans forgave the once-fearsome George Wallace (much easier to forgive when he was sitting in a wheelchair, shaking with Parkinson's, scary as a beetle on its back), I say we should love-bomb the Clinton haters. Stick a flower in the barrel of Richard Mellon Scaife's rifle. Flash a peace sign at Larry Klayman. Give Larry Nichols a state job, for God's sake. Buy some night crawlers from Parker Dozhier. Help Ken Starr get back his lost deanship in Malibu. Get Linda Tripp the name of Paula Jones's cosmetic surgeon. Their motives, ss I've tried to discern them, may have been strikingly less than noble. But their efforts have helped us see more clearly a president whose brilliance and cunning could not keep him from lapses of judgment and acts of recklessness that, had they happened during the cold war, would have made for one very scary movie.

A lifelong middler and diddler miscast as an avatar of radical globalism, who has arrayed against him a collection of cranks and bigots donning the raiment of moralists -- this masquerade, too frightening for Halloween, looks like a Mardi Gras float that veered off Canal Street and lumbered its way up to Pennsylvania Avenue. Even so, in the goofy way that life works, William Jefferson Clinton got the enemies he deserved. Many of us do.

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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:14:22 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, he IS funny...
Message:
JW: Thanks. It was a great read... :-)
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:17:08 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh yeah, JW I really would
Message:
JW: VOTE FOR YOU!!! I was dead serious. Why, you ask? I may disagree with 'some' of your political leanings, BUT you have the integrity to mean what you say and say what you mean. You can always 'deal' with someone like that (in this case, You).
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:22:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks, Mike
Message:
That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today, I think. President? Who in their right mind would do that? Certainly not me, who likely has too many things, inside and outside of the closet, so to speak, that I would rather not be publicized.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 22:56:51 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Pres JW...
Message:
JW I think you are a man of character and integrity, even when I disagree with you. I might even have to vote for you. But character and integrity are a terrible political liability these days. People want the pres to have that bad boy edge. I think I may have posted in that people hate Clinton because he is the first non WW2 generation pres. I never got to see the follow up on that bet it was a good discussion. I tend to have some romantic feelings about that generation myself.

I doubt any of us, having the 'ex premie' in our backgrounds, would be good political canidates. They would eat us alive. And perhaps rightfuly so. Do you think rightfully so? Do you think that the fact that we once fell for you know who as the LOTU forever labels us weakminded? Lets say one of us were nominated for the supreme court, I think we'd be disqualified with this in our history. Any one know of any ex premies ever having difficulty in a prominent postion with kissing lotus feet on the resume?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 01:56:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: The Guru Past
Message:
Well, it ought to be irrelevent, as most other things in one's personal life. But I agree, now everything is fair game and having belonged to a bizarre cult might not look so great. Most of us could chalk it up to 'youthful indiscretion,' exactly what Henry Hyde said about his adulterous affair, of course he was pushing the youthful part, having been in his 40s.

I just think very few people will want to pursue public office anymore, because now even your sex life is open for investigation and discussion. It shouldn't be, but that's what our tabloid society has become. At least I think so. And of course, even if you smoked dope in college, it's a big black mark on your character. Like Barbara Ehrenreich suggested, we are leaving politics and government to the nerds who never did anything other than follow the straight and narrow. I frankly think that's kind of unhealthy.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:13:39 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Is Guru Past relevant...
Message:
I think it would be worth discussing if a canidate for high office once was a cult member. I do not think it really even qualifies as personal life. People would ask, hey if he/she was a sucker then is he/she a sucker now? Is there something intrinsicly(sp?) wrong with this person's judgement? Maybe I still carry the burden that there may be something really wrong with me that I once fell for it?

Remember when Nancy Reagan was consulting an astrologer? Didn't Arrianna ( puke ) Huffington belong to some New Age lets be divine through making lots of bucks cult? Those two were just spouses of politicians and it looked bad. Oh yeah and Hillary wasn't she channelling Eleanor Roosevelt or something? I personally REALLY hate to see anything cultish or new age in people with power over my country, to the point I really did not even like hearing these things about the spouses.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 13:59:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Is Guru Past relevant...
Message:
Well, I think the cult might qualify, in most peoples' minds as a religion, and I think that really is personal. Wouldn't it be weird for a politican who was an ex-premie, trying to explain why he or she was involved? They would either have to say they were duped into a big rip-off, of they would have to say it was basically a good thing that he or she had moved on from. The latter might be more politically successful, but could you imagine how creepy you would feel defending Maharaji the fraud to make yourself look less gullible and stupid? Yuk.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:08:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Is Guru Past relevant...
Message:
And can you imagine trying to explain why you kissed M's feet?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:14:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh My God
Message:
Katie, I didn't think of THAT! Yeah, the feet-kissing business is probably the most repulsive, on a visceral level, for most people, and the hardest to explain. That's why it's so weird that Maharaji is doing it again in this age when he is trying to be more relatable. You would think he would want to bury that in the past as much as possible. [Please excuse me while I shudder silently in front of my computer, remembering a multitude of darshan lines.]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:28:51 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW...I would want to know...
Message:
I mean....so if religion is personal..lets say the canidate is a Satanic cult member who sacrifices humans...still personal?

Or they once followed Jim Jones? Or let's say...aha...they commited perjury and obstruction of justice for Scientology? Or for Rawat for that matter. I do think, that as much as I hate it, if I were to run for public office and someone were to ask questions about my former cult membership that would be a fair issue. If you onced kissed some fat guys feet thinking he was god are you possibly a little (ha ha) weak minded? I think it is a fair question.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:42:01 (EST)
From: JW and Katie
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: more on the premie canidate
Message:
let's say you hear that some power hungry premie is now running for the Presidency.

Would not this questions be legitimate:

If Rawat said 'push the button' would you?

(Kind of like the Kennedy /Pope concerns. But I for one think there is a difference between a cult and a religion)

I think what we all would know is that at least in the '70s if Rawat's agya was push most premies would at least feel tremendous conflict, and many would have pushed.

So why would a person who was vulnerable to this in the past not be expected to try to explain it? I do not think at all it isn't an appropriate question for a powerful leader.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 15:43:16 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW and Katie
Subject: oops that above is from me(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:30:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Interesting question....
Message:
G's mom: You guys are having a very interesting conversation. I didn't realize that my comment about voting for JW would have this kind of impact. Seriously, though, this is interesting.

I think that if 'I' were running for a political office, I would (surprise, surprise) tell the truth and let the chips fall. But not without some simple and forthright explanation. For example: You could say, 'YES! I fell for a cult-trap, as did many others. You might assume from this that I am weak-willed or weak-minded and you WOULD have been right, I guess. BUT, I survived that experience and now possess the ability to know when I am being manipulated by anyone for any reason, without fail and with incredible clarity.' (Note: that last comment could/would help convince people that special interests would have a harder time with me (and they would!), which I could certainly elaborate upon).

I tell you truely, if Clinton had said, 'Yes, I puffed and YES, I did inhale and feel the effects of marijuana' and 'kids, just because I made that mistake doesn't mean that you should nor does it mean that it's ok to do this,' he would have had my vote (or at the very least, I would have given him serious consideration for my vote). Folks who make mistakes are human. Folks that tell the truth about their mistakes (when asked the first time) have INTEGRITY. Folks that learn to capitalize on their mistake(s) are the kinds of folks that I want in office because they are INTELLIGENT and they LEARN. Maybe I'm being a little simplistic, but I would rather do this and fail than to lie and get caught in it! Who knows, maybe telling the truth would become the rage, if enough of them did it and were willing to risk a campaign by doing so. Heck, people may even get the impression that these guys 'cared' about them and what they think.... wouldn't that be a kick!

BTW, I'm not 'picking' on Clinton, it's just a recent example that I think everyone knows about (e.g. the pot smoking lie).
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:10:41 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I agree!
Message:
That is what I would say to, and do, about my cult history. I agree with the rest of what you say as well.

I do think, however, that those who have never been seduced by a cult might not believe what we say about it making us less likely to fall for things in the future. They would see us us having an inherent personality defect that made us vulnerable in the first place. I don't think that is true. But, I think many people hold that opinion about cult members. I must say that I very much hesitate to tell people about my former cult membership.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:22:28 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I agree!
Message:
G's mom: I'm glad it came across the way I wanted. It sure makes sense to me (simpleton that I am).

Yes, I agree with you that it would have some fallout, but testimony by 'expert' witnesses (like cult experts for example) would show that portion of the public that what they thought was wrong and, thus, confirm what we are saying.

Yes, I also agree that my cult involvement is private (while I am private, at least). One of the hardest things that I had to do was explain it to my wife. I told her the WHOLE truth and her response was.... 'that's why you can see thru people trying to use you, so well.' Not the exact words (it was a long time ago) but they were hers and not prompted by me. She also mentioned that it was probably one of the reasons I was so good at getting what I wanted, too..... The rebound of personal 'will power,' if you know what I mean. She's a smart cookie and notices alot, but this flabbergasted me. She saw the positive in the midst of all the negative. She understood..... All because I told her the truth about it. Somehow, I think the 'voting public' would too, if we gave them half a chance. Are you politicians listening?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:36:26 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: voting public
Message:
Somehow I think if one's fictional opponent could lets say get hold of a video of a Darshan line and put it in a campaign ad that the image would override the words of a cult expert, no matter how wise those words would be.

Your wife sounds wise and terrific!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:08:28 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Thanks, I'll tell her you said
Message:
that. I tell her that all the time and she won't believe me. BTW, I think you are right about the darshan tape, but I would rather go down in flames telling the truth than to bend to the lie. Either way, you may get caught, but one is instant and virtually painless while the other is protracted pain and lots of it! Just my personal observation, but I think recent events make the latter pretty clear.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:22:38 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: yep, and at least you can
Message:
look in the mirror when you are all done.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:35:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
I heard a report that Jerry Falwell has had second thoughts about his statement a couple of weeks ago that the antichrist is walking among us and is a male Jew. After a storm of criticism, he said he was sorry if this statement was perceived as being anti-semitic or caused any divisions between Christians and Jews.

Now he didn't actually withdraw the statement and just said he was sorry if it caused problems. Skimpy as it is, it occurred to me that he has gone farther and taken MORE responsibility for his statment than Maharaji EVER has! Pathetic.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:26:49 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
Joe:

Re: Skimpy as it is, it occurred to me that he has gone farther and taken MORE responsibility for his statment than Maharaji EVER has!

One of the strengths of religion in the US is the extent to which it must respond to public opinion. This is largely due to the broken link between church and state, compelling religions to be 'market sensitive.' The strength applies less to cults because, by definition, they are seeking members on the margin of society. M would gain nothing by making an apology, politically speaking, because hardly anyone gives a damn what he says anyway.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:42:53 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
Scott, I'm not so sure Maharaji wouldn't gain something by acknowledging errors of the past. It would certainly take away one of the criticisms that exes and others have of him. I also think his failure to take any responsibility has been the cause of the departure of thousands of premies from his flock, and it also sticks in the craw of many premies who remain, making them stick to the fringes instead of getting more involved, donating money, doing propogation, etc. It could have the effect of breathing some fresh air into what is now his stale, stagnant organization.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:55:56 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
I just don't understand. I don't understand how Falwell generates or deserves any media attention. The antichrist is a male jew? Jeez, if we had only listened to Hitler! If we had, then we would not have the possibility of having a male jew among us.

Did falwell explain how he concluded that the antichrist is a male jew?

M is making a serious marketing mistake by not playing the game of apologizing for past stupidities. True believers would *know* (wink wink) that it was just a lila anyway, right? And it would take some of the wind out of the our sails...well maybe not, I'm not sure about that.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:03:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
I think what Falwell originally said was that he expected the return of Christ in the next ten years. Since Christ is a male Jew, and, according to the bible the antichrist is supposed to be a mirror image of the true Christ, he is supposed to be a male Jew. I guess Falwell figured that the antichrist would have to get established prior to the second coming, and so was probably already walking among us.

Falwell shouldn't be paid serious attention, but isn't he fun to laugh at?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:20:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
I work with a guy who believes (or should I say hopes) these are the last days. Jeez, what a pitiful view of life he has. He has no interest in doing anything but sitting around waiting for The End to come!
He refuses to use a credit card because using a credit card is believing that there will be a future, and he is expecting each day to be his last.
So, he loves it when Falwell comes out with a statement like that. Like, Falwell is some kind of an authority?!
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:35:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Falwell Apology
Message:
Does the guy you work with believe in 'the rapture?' I guess that's when, prior to the end period, true Christians are plucked off the earth, body and all, and taken someplace else. (I'm not sure if it's heaven or where it is.) The rest of us are left to endure wars, pestilence, earthquakes, plagues, locusts, and the antichrist. I guess this ends with the battle of Armageddon.

Anyhow, there is a lot of 'christian' literature out these days, about what happens in 'the rapture.' One is a story about people riding on a passenger airliner when the rapture happens, and some of the passengers, and I guess the pilot some of the crew disappear, and the remaining heathens have to figure out how to fly the plane. These Christians really believe this stuff.

But my favorite joke about the rapture is a bumper-sticker I saw on a very old, beat up car in Berkeley, which says :

WHEN THE RAPTURE COMES, CAN I HAVE YOUR CAR?

I laughed so hard when I saw that I almost caused an accident.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:20:57 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I just DID!
Message:
JW: That bumper sticker just made me LOSE IT! Damn, now I have to clean coffee off my keyboard again.... :-)
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 17:18:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John & JW
Subject: GM Apology
Message:
Unfortunately, if he (GM) were to apologize just for PR value that would make me puke all the more. public apologies today seem to happen when someone gets caught with his/her pants down and has no other recourse. Then public opinion softens towards them because 'after all they are human.' Maharaji deserves his own little Nuerenburg (sp) trial in my opinion! A mere apology wouldn't cut it, because I would doubt its sincerity. Yes all you premies out there I am consumed with hatred! Feel pity for me for I shall die before my time! I shall be consumed by madness, I will become a bag lady reciting Dostievski in the subways!! You won't recognize my face until you hear my sneering 'Jai sat chit anand'!
Are you starting to worry about me John? Could this be the same housewife you met for coffee at Politics and Prose?? ho ho
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:44:50 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: GM Apology
Message:
Helen:

Don't let my memory lapse about the 7th. I've been delerious lately. There is some value in 'the price vice must pay to virtue' even if it isn't sincere. Who cares what happens to M. It would be tremendously redemptive to many exes, even if they don't recognize it now.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:04:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: GM Apology
Message:
So you think it would be redemptive even if it's not sincere? It depends on how it is done. I'm so suspicious of things being 'staged' now. No, I want him to have the 'big hurt' I want him to have to suffer a bit. Face a jury of his peers (those he hurt)
Scott I will send you an em.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:49:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: GM Apology
Message:
Helen:

I guess there is an issue about whether repentance is sincere, simply because repentance itself is something whose value we want to preserve. I don't personally care whether M's apology is sincere or not, because the sincerity primarily has implications for him, not me. If it were 'strategic' (as Clinton's is) that would be a different matter. I'd have to wait to see how it transpires. However, unlike some of the clergymen who are grousing about Clinton I think strategic repentance has been part of American politics for a very long time. It's almost a time-honored tradition. It's accurate to call it 'the price vice pays to virtue' and since I don't expect politics to be about virtue it's enough that it follows on virtue's heels. Better it pays a price than not.

A religious leader's repentance is more problematic because it's more of a personal betrayal. Religion rises beyond public policy, and to use religion for personal gain is a profound breech of trust. But merely having him mouth the words would be an enormous step. And in the last analysis I don't believe I'm a damaged child who needs those words to be 'fixed.' So, I guess in the case of M I'd rather not have the words if they're not sincere. I don't expect them, in either case. A jury of his peers? That would only happen for something like tax evasion or defrauding the federal government. They don't care about repentance either. Different system.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:47:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: GM Apology
Message:
I know, I know.
I see all your points.
It would be satisfying to see him mouth the words, but I'm with you on not feeling like a damaged child who needs to hear it to get fixed.Anyway we are theorizing about something that will never happen, IMO (unless he has some kind of deathbed confession, after an illness where he suffers a lot, or unless life really puts the screws to him somehow and he finally 'gets' it)

Yup, religious leaders who do bad shit are truly breeching their followers' trust. Remember how premies used to say 'this isn't a religion'? What do you think, Scott?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 09:31:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Perfect Scammer
Message:
Helen:

The concept behind 'this isn't a reglion' was the rather smug attitude that religions are belief systems, and as a premie what we had was an actual experience. That experience, however, was actually rather mundane, so we attached a lot of beliefs to it. It is a belief system, or a religion, therefore... because the bare bones experience doesn't get you very far. The bit about M's 'Perfect Mastership' is total belief, of course. More like a 'perfect scam.'

There's not a shred of evidence that he even has a special claim to the techniques let alone the inner experience (if it is an inner experience, rather than a neurological curiosity). Whatever is going on with 'Knowledge' it seems to be part of human nature, and doesn't require anyone to 'reveal' it. It's like discovering that everyone can hear sounds above the audible spectrum if they stand on their heads and hum. So you develop this 'technique' that you teach people, claiming that you're giving them a power they already had. It's a perfect scam in that you get paid without having to actually produce anything. If I were a Marxist I'd say it's the essence of Capitalism: the most elemental 'primitive appropriation.'

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:16:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Perfect Scammer
Message:
Well said, I agree. Re: Maharaji's con-artistry, I hope Nil reads this post.
I also think it is a religion because the group buys into certain beliefs and rituals and you're right, that always sounded so smug when premies would say 'it isn't a religion' as if it were above all religion. Perhaps they said this out of a sincere belief that this was above dogma and was guided by an inner experience but the whole trip got weighed down with a lot of politics etc so that it might as well have been the Vatican,( the Vatican pretending not to be the Vatican, that is)
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:43:04 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Are u running a temperature?
Message:
Seriously, Helen, you need to organize a march on malibu. Let's out this fake guru (er, maybe that's a redundancy?) once and for all. Let's get it all out of our system. We'll hold an x-festival where we can all get together and hate everything and anything about everybody. Jim can be our emcee and he can tell us all to fuck ourselves and we'll all bliss out cause it's so hatefull and negative!
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:53:15 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Are u running a temperature?
Message:
Where you been all my (forum) life? Yer a riot... :-)
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:33:59 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Queen of denial
Message:
DO I SOUND ANGRY??I'M NOT ANGRY--REALLY.
HoHo that is a very funny post of yours.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 03:03:18 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jan
Subject: Do you really own it?
Message:
This scrolled quite quickly , so I brought it to the top to give Jan a chance to answer.(see what I do for you Jan!)

'...Then how can it be taken away from you one day? What Maharaji should have said is, 'Give me the reigns of your life and I'll give them back to you'. '
Did you ever tell HIM what he should have said?
'That's what happened to me, but in the process he taught me something precious that I'll have as a gift for the rest of my life.'

Really? You mean he didn't give you peace but gave you back what was already yours? Could you please expand on that without too much 'premie-speak'.

'But think about it Jed... if you weren't able to give him the reigns, but tried and gave up, would there not be a propensity to believe this is all a fraud? '
Conscious investigation is the way to find out if it is a fraud.

'Yeah, yeah... you say, 'But I DID give him the reigns and I didn't get anything in return'. '
Please explain what you mean by 'giving hin the reigns of my life'.

'Did you really? ...'
I'll happily answer that when I know what YOU mean.

'It's all too easy to go through the motions (ashram premies were masters at it). '
Were you an ashram premie?

'But, to really do it is not easy... it takes real trust.'
Yes it does take REAL trust. That's where his abuse comes in.Again were you an ashram premie? Did you have that trust?

' My point is this: We all live in a separate reality with very few (if any) universal points of reference. '

So are you saying that The Knowledge of all Knowledges is not THE univesal point of reference?

'You have no way of knowing (FOR SURE) the valididty of claims of people who trust him and speak highly of his gift. '

Any ashram premie would know FOR SURE.

'For me, having Knowledge has been a liberating breath of fresh air and I continue to commit myself with pleasure. '

Hey Jan(or is it Jab :>), weren't you for a short time an instructor. Or am I thinking of another Jan(Jan G.)?

Regards Jethro
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:55:35 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Do you really own it?
Message:
I think sex is the universal point of reference. I mean wherever you go in the world and in any culture, people will know and understand exactly what we mean by sex. There's no confusion there.

I lived in an ashram and I trusted Maharaji but it all turned out very wrong. There is no knowledge of all knowledges. There is no master. No, sex and death are the two universal truths. Woody Allen said that.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:25:10 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Do you really own it?
Message:
I also lived in the ashram. We trusted that prempal was everything he said he was and people did give all parts of themselves. We made maximum effort to 'get ourselves out of the way'. He abused us at the deepest level.

In simple terms we totally trusted him and he used us and lied to us.

What do YOU think about that prem?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:19:49 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jan
Subject: Do you really own it?
Message:
Well Jan it seems like you have nothing to say. Doesn't the experience of your 'gift' hold?
There again I'm just another lost ex-premie whose in their mind.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 22:03:18 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: UK rejects Hindu beliefs
Message:
And in no uncertain terms! The coach of the England football team who took them to the World Cup last year, Glen Hoddle has caused a storm of controversy this week over remarks he made in an interview.

Glen Hoddle said that he definitely believed that children who were born disabled were paying for karma from a previous life. He said he believed in re-incarnation and that sins from a previous life was what caused people to be born disabled.

These remarks caused a storm of protest from the great British public and caused the English Football Association to sack Glen Hoddle from his job as England coach within a few days of his remarks being printed in the newspapers. It is interesting that any football coach in India could have made such remarks without anyone batting an eyelid. In Britain, it seems, things are very different. People in general find the Hindu concept totally unacceptable and are incensed with the whole philosophy. Glen Hoddle had been a good England coach and could have landed us the World Cup next time round. But his adherence to Eastern beliefs has outraged the British public. People already know about these beliefs of course but they find them repulsive and repugnant and totally unacceptable. Talking to friends about Hoddle's karma remarks; they all find them equally repulsive.

It's easy to see that Maharaji would never have even got a toe hold here in Britain. I experienced that when I was a premie. People at work who I gave satsang to, in the early days, were dead against Maharaji, knowledge and the whole philosophy. It stunk to them. People could not stomach Maharaji's speil at all. It's clear to see that East does NOT meet West on this issue. The Western mind is very different to its Eastern counterpart. The two are actually in conflict with each other. And never the twain shall meet.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 22:49:44 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: UK rejects Hindu beliefs
Message:
hooray for that good news.
but rawats evolving rap and theft of all the religious words
and his videos and confident deception can cause a
new crop of suckers to emerge from englands youth.
The new age and dali lama films and such things lend themselves
to an openness to rawats trip furthur down the road.
I don't think he is done.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 19:55:29 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Not All the UK, David...
Message:
I find this 'Hoddle sacking'business quite interesting. Although I neither believe or disbelieve in reincarnation, I think it is a hypocritical and narrow-minded 'knee-jerk' reaction to latch so fiercely onto Hoddles's innocently muddled 'schoolboy' ideas about reincarnation and use it as a reason to sack him. If England had won the world cup nobody would have turned a hair about his beliefs now would they? Probably what happened was that some Football Association lads (who were clearly out to destroy Hoddle) met the Times Newspaper journalist down the pub and suggested that they should grill the unfortuunate guy on the subject of his 'wacky' beliefs. The inevitable consequence of this would be that Hoddle would say something stupid and/or embarrasing.

We have, as a society, striven (in our nobler moments) to encourage freedom of speech with regard to religious beliefs. To prohibit people (from any walk of life) from expressing their beliefs (however 'wacky') stifles free-thinking and is a sign of intolerance.

Of course there is now the distinct implication, as a result of this incident, that all Hindus etc. or people who believe in reincarnation, cannot be football managers. That priviledge is obviously to be reserved for irreligious middle-aged men whose simple consciences don't object to having to toe the party line and refuse to answer questions about their religion when pressed.(of course hopefully they won't have any religious convictions if they are the right man for the job). Football people are evidently so embarrased that Hoddle, the apparently Mr average football person, should break rank and make some Neolithic attempt at admiring the workings of the universe. These people epitomise that woeful category of British society who will offhand, automatically deride anyone who doesn't conform to their tiresomely unconscious social clique. (I admit that is a little over dramatic, but you get the idea...)

I know what you mean about the British public generally not being very receptive to 'other' religions etc. This attitude may well have served to protect them at times, as you have suggested, from all sorts of Gurus and Swamis (Maharaji included) and their alien ideas. I hardly think that this reflects terribly well on the British people. I like to think that those of us who took an interest in spiritual matters and thus in Maharaji, were from a more conscientious section of society. Actually there are many people in the West, not unlike Hoddle, whose sincere attitude in searching for truth leads them to consider the spectrum of all the world religions and their teachings; at least at some time in their lives. Hoddle was just going through that process, bless'im.

Regarding the disabled peoples reaction. One can understand their discomfort at the suggestion that they are in some way responsible for their sufferings. Is it really to be taken so seriously? especially since everyone is quick to pronounce such beliefs as 'wacky'. Do they want to turn a blind eye to the fact that these sort of beliefs exist? Can they not accept that Hoddle, as one who apparently has done a lot for disabled people himself, was merely stating that he believed that there is a purpose behind the apparently cruel misfortunes of life and that he believes in Karma etc. My feeling is that some people are being a bit over precious and quick to take offence to what he said. As a matter of fact, some people who believe in Karma, and even Christians for that matter, would say that to be be born with some 'cross to bear' or whatever, is positively a gift from a loving God that one may grow faster in the spirit etc. Whatever..all these paradigms exist and there's no getting away from it.

Anyway, I believe that it is good for journalists to tell us how our leaders think and behave off camera, and I think that on this occasion they would have served us better by exposing some of the more insidious people that lurk in this country. Poor old Hoddle has been the subject of a cynical and hypocritical witch hunt.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:26:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Not All the UK, David...
Message:
Well put there, Anon. I couldn't help but feel sorry for Hoddle about all this. The guy is a decent man who is an inspiration to his team. The fact that he dropped Gazza from the England team was a sure indication of his dedication to the game. Having been involved in another sport at a high level (cycling) I know what a precious thing is an inspiring coach.

Football and ideas about karma definitely don't mix and poor Glen would have done better talking about what he knows best, football. I think he must have been tricked into answering this question. I think the trouble came from the faith healer woman who has been around Glen Hoddle. She was bound to arouse a cynical press.

Remarkable, only last week I read somewhere on the net that some people believe that disabled people are actually more spiritually evolved and are thus afflicted in order to help people learn compassion. Now I don't really believe either theory about disabled people. It's biological and genetic isn't it. There's bound to be some disabled people born until we get the genetic engineering perfected. Football and Hinduism though - what a wierd mix!
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 08:34:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
This is from Diz' post in a dying thread below. I thought it was worth clipping:

'So why doesn't premie humour show up on ELK? Some possibilities:

- because people know they need to be 100% POSITIVE when they post there - so keep their quirky views to themselves.

- because there's less irony/group-think-depreciating humour around than there once was. I wonder if the emergence of a voice for 'the other side' - ie this site - has freed some premies of the need to maintain a dissenting voice within themselves: now MJ is publically under attack, they've become more fully supportive.

I think the many years in which MJ himself has been the major - almost the only - voice speaking about K etc has also had its effect - people have learned the language and ideas he expresses in 'events' so thoroughly that they think they're their own. That's one reason that the re-creations which you and others come up with of ashram thought patterns are such a delight - they're DIFFERENT to the K-lite expressions, showing once again that the external trappings around the experience of meditation are a cultural creation.'

Diz, I agree with all these reasons. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 09:40:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
No sooner do Diz and I bemoan the lack of premie humour on ELK then this shows up:

'On Friday, 29 January, the MCs from all around the country gathered in Santiago and had a successful training session. The workshop was conducted by Dr. V. Oliva, a psychologist and specialist in training personnel, who shared important communication issues that were really valuable for all of us. Mrs.Pilar Alemparte, who helps in the MC area in our country also helped with this training.

To see everyone doing their best to meet professional standards in order to convey Maharaji's message properly was amazing. The participants varied from a former radio presenter to a housewife who lives on a farm and all of them demonstrated their skills in front of an audience. There were many humourous moments and we felt so much mutual respect. After the training, we all had dinner together and shared our feelings. It was wonderful!

Several cities are opening up new halls this month and fresh MCs are eager to welcome new guests.'

Sorry I missed those 'many humourous moments'.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 11:58:32 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
Why do their updates or posts always sound like some kind of PBS travelogue for 80 year olds?
Or maybe a Walt Disney script.
'and a great time was had by all'
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
'Why do their updates or posts always sound like some kind of PBS travelogue for 80 year olds? Or maybe a Walt Disney script.
'and a great time was had by all''

Their sense of humour was killed long ago.

I remember once being told that prempal burst out crying when an ashram premie asked him if it was ok to laugh in the ashram. Maybe he got a hint of the state of people and became human for a moment and then immediately split into his divine self.

Anyway it now seems that permission for humour is DRIPing through, with HIS permisssion of course...and only if you want to.

Don't it make you wanna puke.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:30:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
All I can say is WOW, Jethro. I am speechless. It appears that Maharaji was concerned about the spontaneity and health of his premies at one point--what happened.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 15:17:54 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
'All I can say is WOW, Jethro. I am speechless. It appears that Maharaji was concerned about the spontaneity and health of his premies at one point--what happened.'

Isn't it obvious, he quickly caught humself being a little bit real..so he just remembered his own holy name and moved on.
A sad refelection on humanity.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 16:47:01 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
Again I am speechless. But nevertheless that is a strange and wonderful story.
'Are we still allowed to laugh, Maharaji?,' asked the munchkins of wonderland.
'No,' said the white rabbit, 'then again, yes, because you must be like children, then again no, because enlightenment is serious business.'
And the Cheshire cat's smile faded away
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:44:11 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
''Are we still allowed to laugh, Maharaji?,' asked the munchkins of wonderland.
'No,' said the white rabbit, 'then again, yes, because you must be like children, then again no, because enlightenment is serious business.'
And the Cheshire cat's smile faded away'

Helen, what a beautiful expression of such unecessary saddness.

I wonder if he ever shed a tear or even thought about those who decided to kill themselves.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:37:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
Maharaji set into motion something that was so deeply flawed from the start that it could only self-destruct or cause his devotees to self-destruct. The whole trip was a fantasy that turned quite dangerous as his world turned from sort of a harmless love bubble to a mind control trip with GM's power needs trickling down into our lives.

It gives me the chills really
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:41:28 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
'It gives me the chills really '
Yehm I know exactly what you mean. I still really resent the lost years of my life.
Have you seen the film Papillion? It's about a guy who was sent to the French prision island and was in isolation for years. he would have hallucinations and dreams about his own life. One of the dreams was about him running across a desert and suddenly he is sitting in front of a panel of judges. They say to him 'are you guilty or not guilty?'
He answerd 'guilty.......of a wasted life'.

I still feel like this much of the time and is the main reason if I get depressed.

Anyway I am gradually getting my own voice back...you know the one I gave away to an image of God.

Jethro
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 16:55:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
I think many of us here are familiar with depression. I used to really get really down about my stupid, aimless, embarrassing past. Now I have enough good stuff in my recent past (the past 10 years) to kind of inoculate me from the demons. In other words -I can't change all that other shit back there, and the past really is gone. So my advice (even though you didn't ask for any) is just be the best person you can be now.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:43:39 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: GM's tears 4 our lost laughter
Message:
'So my advice (even though you didn't ask for any) is just be the best person you can be now.'

prem's trip from the beginning was based on the assumption that we were inadequate as we were, so we were really privilaged to have 'The Knowledge of all Knowledges', I remember him saying that he would rather people do service all their lives(ye I bet he would) and he would give them knowledge just before they died, thus he instilled the feeling of unworthiness.

There is a Yiddish saying 'hashaina raina gipoora' which means approximately 'may you know what it is like to be a scapegoat'. This I wish on prem.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:26:31 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Inadequacy
Message:
COOL--you know Yiddish!! Teach us so more. Are you Jewish? Yiddish is so expressive.

That sense of inadequacy sure is a big hurdle to get over. I really think all of us have had enough humiliation to last a lifetime and could probably benefit from a course in 'How to Be an Egotistical Maniac'.
I always sort of envied the real hard ass money makers in the Washington DC area where I live. I hope some of their ambition will rub off on me. I mean they know they're the hottest shit going. They never worry about hurting someone else's feelings or appearing too egotistical. I want some of what they have.

How do people get this way anyway? Either too self effacing or so sure of themselves? One thing I know for sure, we needed Maharaji like holes in the head
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:43:03 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Inadequacy
Message:
Yes I am a Jew(a Levite actually). My parents used to speak Yiddish when they didn't want me and my brother to understand. I refused to learn Yiddish (even when I was in Yeshiva)as I saw it as an enhancement of the notion of being a victim. I preferred Hebrew which is a beautiful language with a brilliant structure.
However some of the Yiddish phrases are brilliant, here a few that I remember:

1. calling someone a juba grundadiga which means a green-eyed frog
2. shvuntz - lierally meaning a tail-I never understood why this is an insult but it is
3. bulvunt meaning bedbug which my father used to use if he thought someone was lazy
4. wishing someone a misa meshina means you wish them an ugly death

Hebrew however is far more poetic. Classical(Biblical) Hebrew is superb and very hard to transalate exactly into English. That's why I always found it amusing reading the (various) English translations.

Amyway prempal is defibnitely a juba grubdadiga and a big shvuntz and although he always appears to busy to answer any of us or any of his followers he really is a bullvunt.
I can't say that I wish him a misa meshina but if what Glen Hodell said was true he is certainly heading for one. He should get out of his mind!!

All the best to you Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:19:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Talk to me Jethro
Message:
Ho Ho You don't know how in heaven I am to hear you damn GM in Yiddish.

You know I'd rather hear about your Levite childhood and the beauty of the Hebrew language than hear old Mr. Pudgy face go on about that beautiful experience.

So anytime you want to relay more I am all ears, hey, I'm no schmeggeggie
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:25:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene/Jim
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
'we shared our feelings' means 'we shared only those feelings deemed acceptable in the context of premiehood and kept our lips zipped if we had anything else to say'
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:53:30 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
Why do their updates or posts always sound like some kind of PBS travelogue for 80 year olds?

Thanks for the chuckle, Selene. My sentiments, exactly.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:07:30 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour at last
Message:
Keep pointing this stuff out. Because it is exactly the weird weird sort of stuff that makes the 90% of people who receive knowledge disappear. It's simply not normal. It's creepy, creepy, creepy. This page minus the unsubstantiated allegations is truly must reading for anyone who is involved in Elan Vital. And not just for a month but everyday until they realize just how fucked they are. For all you premies out there the ex page could be the last step to realization.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:46:52 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
I think the premie world is mostly humorless, except for the stupid 'humor' that Maharaji himself spouts from time to time, because humor and satire are very powerful in cutting through programmed bullshit. I think it's because humor and satire can hit you on a gut level, and it can get underneath the internal censor that premies have, before they realize it. Hence, humor that is in any way satirical towards anything having to do with Maharaji is verbotten. For example, I think that picture of Maharaji giving the finger that somebody put on the web is probably more powerful in shaking premie programming than all the rational and logical discussion that goes on here.

In this sense, the premie world has its own 'red guard', 'cultural revolution' and thought police. It becomes very clear to premies what is acceptable and what is not, at least in terms of what they say publicly, if not what they think. But I think there are lots of premies who are very troubled by this and I think that's part of the reason so very few premies publish their 'lives' entries on enjoyinglife. They know it's a vacuous sham, but rather than criticize or make fun of it, they just don't participate.

Finally, I agree with Diz that to some extent premies feel their lord and master is under attack from this website and they are very troubled by it. So, one reaction is to rally around the lord and express only 'positive' things about him, not matter how ridiculous it sounds, and refrain from anything that could be interpreted in any way as being less than pure. I think a similar thing is going on with Clinton, by the way. A large section of the population feels he's under an unfair attack by 'wingnuts' of the right and hence they support him. If they didn't feel he was under attack, they probably would be criticizing him.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:03:58 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nil is a blemish in their
Message:
JW: You make some really good points. In my own experience, whenever I get a really good belly-laugh, it's a MAJOR release. Release is NOT in M's game plan. I don't know if you read my post about the 'finger,' but it mirrored your sentiments, almost exactly. The 'shock/incongruity' factor, I think, is what made it SO funny to me. A picture that I would NEVER have expected. Well, ok, the finger being on 'backwards' and then turning into a thumb had something to do with it. One thing is for sure, REAL humor does require a working brain/mind to appreciate. If the 'mind' is an enemy, then so is humor (it depends so heavily upon the mind).

As to your comments about the 'forces' rallying around M and saying/acknowledging only 'positive' things, there is ONE GLARING flaw.... Nil. Boy, I'm sure that the premies are proud to have him on their side.... NOT!
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 17:57:39 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
Two things came to my mind while reading your post, JW. First, I think one of the most memorable laughs I've ever had was in satsang. David Smith was comparing how people hoard material items to how crowes hoard shiney objects. It was in a small community in Hawaii and everyone was rolling on the floor hysterically. Don't think I'm not ashamed for having found David Smith funny; I am. But he was an admitted nebisch, and that made me laugh.

I agree that the range of humor available to premies in the late seventies was limited, but I do remember having some good laughs. Part of it was because there was so much tension... the payoff was when I couldn't take it anymore and finally burst with a laughing attach. But also, our minds had developed a narrow set of values that gave birth to a particular kind of humor. Some things were definitely considered funny but it had to fall in line with the programming. In the end, the laughs were hardly worth it, but I don't think the culture was humorless.

Things are different now and the humor may have changed or disappeared also. Part of what allowed the humor we had back then, was that we were heartily pursuing something, regardless of how imaginary it was. There were many sacrifices made, and we clearly had a sense of tragedy (despite how twisted it was), and that gave rise to comedy. Looking back it was all pretty stupid but at the time it seemed funny.

Now, not only do premies pursue something imaginary, they imagine the pursuit itself. It's all completely pretend. The pursuit of the ultimate bliss is now the pursuit of 'enjoy'. What the fuck is 'enjoy'? And how does one pursue it? There really isn't any pursuit any more, and no longer any tension, so it isn't surprising there isn't any humor.

The second thing that came to mind, was that the current attack on Clinton is really an attack on civil rights, human rights, the fight against racism, poverty, injustice, etc. Defending Clinton in his current situation is really defending those ideals.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 18:39:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
I agree that self-deprecating humor was always allowable in the premie kingdom. You could make fun of yourself, about how confused and messed up you might be, and it was also possible to be funny in satsang, saying something in a cute, humorous way.

But humor about Maharaji, or about knowlege, just wasn't allowed. For example, if you thought it was funny how stupid Maharaji looked dancing half naked on the stage, wearing a crown and obviously so overweight, you would never have said it. You also wouldn't make fun of the obviously stupid things he said from time to time. No way. It was perfectly okay to laugh, but there were certain things you couldn't even say, let alone laugh at.

Can't say I ever found David Smith funny. Can you explain to a goy what a nebisch is?

The second thing that came to mind, was that the current attack on Clinton is really an attack on civil rights, human rights, the fight against racism, poverty, injustice, etc. Defending Clinton in his current situation is really defending those ideals.

I agree that what is happening is essentially a coup from the right wing of the Republican party, those very people who are pretty much opposed to civil rights and want to do nothing whatsoever about poverty and injustice, unless it's injustice they perceive happening to THEM. So in that sense, defending Clinton might be defending those ideals, but Clinton himself isn't the greatest advocate for them. Welfare 'reform,' NAFTA, the failure of his promised universal health care plan, etc., kind of mitigate against that idea. Sure, on reproductive choice, most women's rights issues, and at least vetoing some of the awful destruction of environmental protections that the Republicans have passed, he's been pretty good.
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:46:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, bite your tongue...
Message:
I'm not goin' there, I'm not goin' there, I'm not goin' there not matter how much JW maligns and distorts and downright lies...
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:51:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: backpedal
Message:
Alright, not DELIBERATELY lies, but certainly, perhaps unintentionally, misrepresents the truth. And I officially bow out of this, unless...
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 20:05:09 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
A nebisch is a nerd begging to be smacked in the head.

I think it's consistent with the notion that things held sacred in a society are taboo to joke about. If maharaji was who he claimed to be and knowledge was what he said it was, naturally such a deliverance from the ordinary and painful world would deserve an unwaivering respect. For example, a protege of a virtuoso musician or artist probably wouldn't make fun of his/her weight or foibles.

I think the added misunderstanding that you had to 'devote' yourself to maharaji and knowledge, made it almost impossible to joke about it. That kind of irreverence could cost you dearly, as we understood the process of being saved. It wasn't like you could just sit back and cruise, even. You really had to get SERIOUS about it.

Of course, now that we know it's a scam, all bets are off. Now the fat fuck is gonna get shredded.

Yes, Clinton is far from satisfactory. Only in comparison to the republican agenda does he really mean anything. What little good he stands for becomes very important when that is the best this country has, and the republicans want to destroy it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:09:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
Rick, what you said about taboo subjects in the premie world was very well said, and I think very true. The whole concept of devotion, and being saved, made whatever you said about Maharaji very serious and you had to be very careful. So there was a lot of self-censorship.

And your sentiments about Clinton and the Republicans are pretty much the way I see it as well -- that you have to see him in comparison to the alternative, which is pretty awful -- an alternative that would destroy some of the few rights and safety nets we have left -- [Trent Lott, Bob Barr, Dan Quayle, Phil Gramm, Jessie Helms, -- yes, the alternative is very depressing.] And I'm sure your aren't lying.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:53:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: May I disagree
Message:
Rick: I was going to let all of the praise-Clinton talk slide until your very last sentence, 'that is the best this country has...' NOT! Clinton is NOWHERE NEAR the very best this country has to offer. Rick, you know that I'm pretty conservative so what I'm going to say 'should' have some impact.... I consider YOU and JW (including your most liberal of ideas) to be head and shoulders ABOVE Clinton. I would vote for either of you (in a new york second) if you were running against Clinton. BELIEVE ME, this isn't supposed to be an insult against you or JW; it's actually a pat-on-the-back. At least with you two, I would KNOW exactly where you stand. Your platform wouldn't be a moving target of opportunity based upon self-interest. NO, Clinton is by no means the best this country has to offer....BY NO MEANS!
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:46:59 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: May I disagree
Message:
Mike,
What I mean by 'Clinton is the best this country has' is that because he is in office he's in the position to effect actions opposed to the republicans. Sure others would be better (Ralph Nader, for instance) but Clinton is the best we have because he actually got elected.

The funny thing is I'd rather have whatever self-interest Clinton has than whatever integrity Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich, George Bush Jr. has. I think for a lot of people, it isn't a question of integrity anymore. It's a question of who's going to do the most for people of color, gay/lesbians, labor, women, abortion rights, etc.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:17:47 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Ahhhh
Message:
Rick: Oh, I get it.... he who will do more for 'special interest groups'.... GOTCHA... JUST KIDDING RICK!!!!! :-)

Seriously, I think people need to look beyond ALL party lines. The fact that I'm a republican doesn't, by ANY stretch, mean that I'm not in favor of many of the things that you briefly mentioned. I tend to be conservative, I guess, in the traditional sense of the word. Conservative, to me, means following the constitution to the letter....EVERY SINGLE part of it (including the second amendment!) The thing that frightens me most are those that want to short-circuit constitutional processes. For example: the call, in the House, for the House to censure the president..... UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The House CANNOT censure the president, only the senate can 'punish' the president. THIS is the kind of thing that I'm VERY consevative about. Applying EQUAL RIGHTS to ALL is very much constitutional. The rights put forth in the bill of rights (ALL OF THEM) are to be preserved (or 'conserved,' if you will). I don't see a 'conservative' approach to rights as being the 'wrong' approach. In fact, I see the 'liberal' abuse (or denial) of our rights (again, ALL OF THEM!) to be unconscionable! As you can see, MY PERSONAL definiton of conservative is a 'bit' different. You will likely note that I use the word 'ALL' alot, because I think our current government is running roughshod over our second amendment rights.... TO ME, that really IS SCARY! For a more complete picture of what I'm talking about in this regard you need to read Hitler's description of 'how to pacify a populace.' Hint: First, you must disarm the PEOPLE! I think our founding fathers knew FULL WELL what they were doing and we should 'conserve' it! (especially considering the fact that the second amendment was considered SO IMPORTANT that it was placed second only to the freedom of speech).

NO, I don't want to get into a pro-gun vs. anti-gun argument (we've been there before). I'm only talking about conserving/preserving the constitution, as it stands NOW! I find people like Clinton to be a real hazard to the constitution and its full meaning because they honestly believe that some 'parts' of it no longer apply to you and me.... WRONG!

BTW, Rick, I looked at a recent poll on ABC that said 78 percent (number sound familiar?) said that the court made the right decision in saying that a 'threat' had been communicated by that stupid anti-abortion web page. In other words, the court redefined the term 'threat' to include 'implied' rather than 'imminent danger' only. So now, according to this court, if you 'imply' something (without saying it directly), it's as good as said (LEGALLY). THINK ABOUT IT! If that isn't 'thought police,' then I don't know the meaning of the term. NO, I DO NOT NOT NOT agree with that web-page or its contents. I think it was one of the most idiotic pieces of crap that I've ever had the displeasure of reviewing. BUT... the freedom of speech really IS at issue and I hear no one standing up in its defense.... I wonder why?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:24:03 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: wound up, thanks Rick and JW
Message:
Fuck the Republicans! They have been co-opted (sp?) by the religious right. There can be no denying this. Remember the Rep rebuttal of Klinton's State of the Union speech? Jennifer Dunn was ok, but the male Senator from the mid west, whatshisname, was a complete jerk. All that god talk made me want to puke. He said something to the effect that a few years ago, he had to ask what the letters GOP meant. Now he's in the congress. Duh!

I thought the Republican party stood for states' rights, individual freedoms (which certainly should include P.o.C. sexual minorities, disabled, etc.) and less government. Guess not.

I don't immediately impugn the integrity of the people Rick mentioned. But I would Klinton. What about Juanita Broderick? Some serious allegations he raped her. Check the Drudge report, NBC, Fox. Noone has accused Bob Dole, Reagan, Bush or any of the other usual Republican suspects of rape or murder.

What about Liz Dole for president? The Demos must be worried, their bed buddies in the media are already doing a chop job on her.

JW, I know you're not a liar. I hate having to apologize to you all the time, but you do get to me more than anyone here. Maybe it's because you're so damn smart and well spoken. Fuck! (that doesn't make you right, tho)
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:35:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: May I disagree
Message:
Rick, I think you are describing one of the problems for me. I guess it's the tension between pragmatism and really going after what you think is right. True, Clinton got elected, and the alternative was far worse, but I think a whole lot more pressure has to be put on Clinton, from those on the left who seem to be his strongest supporters right now (like the CBC, Jessie Jackson, NOW, NARAL, The Sierra Club, Barney Frank, labor, etc.) In many ways, Clinton has sold many of these people down the river over the years, because he's really more or a republican than a democrat anyway, at least regarding his policies. I think that's why some of the republicans hate him so much, because he has out-played them at their own game.

And even in his State of the Union, he has the gall to ask for and INCREASE in military spending, when we already spend more than the rest of the world combined and there isn't even a Soviet Union anymore. [I agree that pay and benefits for the rank and file military need to be improved, but as Barbara Boxer said the other day, we can easily do that without increasing spending, just by eliminating some of the massive waste, and eliminating a couple of the weapons programs that the Congress passed as pork-barrel projects for their districts (Newt Gingrich ('Mr. Martin Marietta,' and Trent Lott in particular), that the Pentagon didn't even want.]

I also think that if George Bush hadn't been defeated by Clinton, Bush would have never gotten NAFTA passed, and wouldn't have been able to demolish the welfare safety net (under the guise of 'welfare reform,'). So in some ways, Clinton has been worse.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:58:53 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Laughing at satsang
Message:
One thing that bugged me out about satsang was the senseless laughing that would often go on. People would laugh for absolutely no good reason, whatsoever. One day, I even found myself doing it. It was insane. I was insane. I remember, in NYC, at the satsang hall on 14th street, there was this black fellow who would laugh his ass off from the time satsang started until it ended. It gave a lot of people the willies but I always thought of it as being an expression of his enlightenment, that he was in on something that I wasn't. Now I just think he was out of his fucking mind. Does anybody remember this fellow? Are any of you him?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:12:29 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Laughing at satsang
Message:
Hey Jer,

Was that satsang hall on 14th the one that had hardwood floors and a basketball hoop? You had to go up a couple of floors to get there. Was there a boxer's gym on the floor below it?

Sorry I neglected to call you. As usual, it was a mad windwhirl trip for us back East. I even neglected to call my sister on Long Island, although I did talk to her at my Dad's.

Had a different New Year's this year. We were in Brooklyn at a friends apartment. Just us two couples, Patty and me and Scott and his partner Jamal. We stayed up until five AM.. Ooh the next day was a bit painful until my third Bloody Mary...
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:50:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Satsang hall
Message:
Gerry,

The satsang hall was across the street from Union Square Park. You took an elevator to the 7th floor to get to it. It was a pretty good sized loft. A couple of hundred people could fit in on a good night, SRO. There were hardwood floors but I don't recall the basketball hoop, though there very well might have been. The ceiling was high enough for it. There might have been a boxer's gym on the floor below it, but I don't recall. I used to go there pretty regularly in the late 70s.

No problem about the call. Hope you had a good New Year's in Brooklyn. I had a sober New Year, myself. I just can't deal with the hangovers anymore. But the hair of the dog is the way to go if you have to. It's the only thing I've ever known to work.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 16:18:47 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Satsang hall
Message:
I don't think it's the same building. That bldg was also near Union square, but it was a four story walk-up. It's since been demolished) The gym was a rather famous one where Norman Mailer worked out. In the every eighties, Patty had her art studio above the gym so I was there several times. I swear it was the same place I attended satsang.

That was a weird trip. I went to NYC from PA in 1973 with a friend of mine. We were wondering out loud where we might find a vegetarian restaurant when a middle aged lady approached us with a suggestion. She ended up giving us the keys to her apartment so we could stay there. She was spending the night somewhere else.

Her brother freaked when he heard what she did and came over to check us out. They were in the clothing industry and the apt. was full of jeans, shirts, blouses, etc. Can you imagine giving the keys to your aparment to two strangers you just met on the streets? This was definitely a sign of Guru's grace!

Shit, now I'm getting nostalgic for NYC. We still have the lease on a nice (but small) apt on the lower east side--oops, I mean the East Village--fashionable now. Wonder how the cats would like it?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:03:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: HA!
Message:
I thought he was enlightened by maybe he was out of his fucking mind! Ain't it the truth about a lot of us
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 13:21:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
Fabulous, Diz, I see an anthropology dissertation here (an interesting one, too!!) IOU an email, will write soon
Helen
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:44:24 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Diz on premie humour
Message:
Helen are you an antropologist? If I had another lifetime to work on it, that is something I would definitey pursue. Fascinating stuff.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 23:19:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Anthropology
Message:
Are you kidding? The closest I've come to being an anthropologist is working at The World Bank with people of 200 different cultures. Also I've studied a bit of anthropology when it comes to child care, postpartum recovery, and breast feeding in different cultures. Nothing formal.

I thought Diz' analysis, especially of langauge styles and humor, would be so great as a study. A nanny I know did an anthropological study of the soccer moms in this area for her anthro class. It was pretty scathing (pretty funny too).
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Date: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 21:08:32 (EST)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: Diz
Subject: Diz, can you e-mail me please!
Message:
If you read this, can you drop me a line, as I've had a real problem e-mailing you for the last month as it keeps bouncing back....ta very much.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 00:24:36 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: TD, Rick, and all
Subject: humor
Message:
Will do, TD.

Rick, you've taken my analysis much further. I actually started off my post to Jim below by saying that in my experience (now some years old) there WAS a degree of humour amongst premies, some of it directed at keeping the excesses of serious devotee-hood in some sort of perspective. When I first came to satsang, it was the existence of a modicum of humour which encouraged me to stay. You're probably right that MJ himself and what he said was not often the subject of jokes/satire. Although I can remember one birthday party - about 1982? - where some premie doctors did a skit in which they were taking off something MJ had said about no doctor ever having found happiness... As I remember, MJ found it pretty funny. But premies did make wry, and sacriligious comments at times. I used to love it. Seemed to indicate a sanity and refreshing lack of slavish group think. My thesis to Jim was about how come, in that light, so little of it seemed to manifest on ELK.

I had another thought about this later. Maybe MJ's 'WALK' satsangs have served the function of pulling premies closer into 'sync' with the party line. He was just starting to say things along the lines of 'if you don't like it, leave', around the time I left around 3 years ago. In fact, it was one of the final DRIPs for me. But for those with doubts who stayed, the message, I suspect, may have led to a stifling of any questions or concerns they might have had.

Look how tentative those poor Italians (?) were who wanted a more human and friendly atmosphere at video programs! Hey, MJ, don't you wish your premies felt free to say 'Hey, why is everyone so fucking unfriendly around here? Is this experience of love something that flows into your life and your interactions with other people, or not? If not, it should be! Let's lighten up!!'

Diz
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:09:35 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: humor
Message:
Diz
Your post makes a good point at the end about the repression encouraged at video events. I have never been to one, but by someone in my local communities description of them to me, it sounds as if people just go to the videos and then leave afterward with no interaction at all, before, during or after.
Also, some former bigwig premie put in a post to E.L.K. complaining about people acting too 'clubby' at events and suggesting people should stay focused on knowledge rather than use the event to visit old friends or gossip.
Sounds like a fun cult, huh?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:33:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: x & Diz
Subject: humor
Message:
X & Diz: This thread reminded me of a conversation that I had, about a year ago, with a premie friend. He and his wife were at some event (Long Beach?) and they met with Charanand. He told them, 'don't trust ANYONE except M. There are alot of strange things happening and M is the ONLY person you can trust.' I didn't attribute much to that comment at the time, but your commentary about lack of interaction between premies seems to give it a some weight. Sounds pretty paranoid to me, especially when it comes from charanand.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:54:42 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: x
Subject: humor
Message:
I have never been to one, but by someone in my local communities description of them to me, it sounds as if people just go to the videos and then leave afterward with no interaction at all, before, during or after.

Yes x, that is exactly how it was last I went, in 1997. Very creepy.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:28:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
I went and looked on ELK at what the Italians said in their 'criticism.' Awfully mealy mouthed, isn't it? They made the teensiest suggestion that everything isn't entirely perfect, but qualified it by saying that their statement is 'simple' and 'non-critical' and they don't DARE make a suggestion as to how things should change. It's pretty sad, although it probably took some courage for them to say the little they did:

In a simple and non-critical way, we would like to express our opinon about the excessive detachment at video events. It sometimes feels like people are afraid to establish any kind of relationship amongst themselves. Perhaps what can be seen as coldness does not encourage sharing and enthusiasm.

Even the 'coldness' isn't really 'coldness,' it's just perceived that way, and it might not be that people are really afraid to 'establish any kind of relationshp amongst themselves,' it just sometimes feels like that. It's hard to see how these guys could have included any more qualifiers on their statement; it's almost like they were offering a suggestion, legs shaking, to some omnipotent ruler who might chop their heads off if he was offended in the least.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:59:38 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
JW, the coldness I saw at out video events came from a large part from pure and simple loathing. ha 'Fear and Loathing at the Video Events'. I am not lying. Numbers of premies are dwindling, the ones left have lifetimes of bad history between them. When they bring someone new into this weird scene, the best they can do, after showing a video about how beautiful it all is, is to take the new person (or themselves alone with their denial) and smile politely and RUN!!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:39:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Even before video events, back when we had 'introductory programs' at which people spoke AND a video was shown, I occasionally brought a 'new person' and when I did, I saw the program through their eyes and was usually very embarrassed at how inane and incoherent both Maharaji and the premies were. I remember that feeling of hustling the person out of the hall as soon as possible, because I could see how utterly bored they were.

So, tell us Selene, did you ever bring someone to a 'video event?' How did they react?
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 14:55:36 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
I brought an old high school friend to an intro program at GW U. in DC., around 74. At one point some premies did a skit telling the joke where god says 'give him his quarter back and tell him to go to hell.' All the p's laughed as usual, but this poor guy could not relate at all.

I remember this because the ashram car I drove him back home in ran out of gas and I had no money. I hitched from Virginia to that big bridge going into the capitol, 14th st bridge I think. From there I walked all the way to the McKinley St. shram in the NW part of the city,through the South East section of DC which at the time was one big ghetto. I arrived at 5 am, after dodging a few creepy folks on the way. Of course, I was sure the grace got me home, although I think it really was fear and adrenalin.

I never saw or talked to the guy again.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:00:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Great story.

Were you at COLL when someone made the decision that we should do propogation by doing a 'meditation survey?' It was such a sham, as it wasn't a survey at all, but a means of talking to people about 'meditation.' It was pretty much a failure. As I recall, it was done during the 'Discover the Sunny Kingdom Through Meditation' period. God, we tried so many things, and they didn't work. That should have been a clue about what it was we were peddling.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:19:26 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
i don't remember that. I was there the last six months or so up to when we all were booted out. Mark Lerner was the head honcho at the time.

I spent most of my time just working a job, then playing ping pong and tennis, and slowly and unknowingly becoming a severe hypoglycemic, which peaked when I moved back to DC late 76.

I remember one night near the end, when things were starting to loosen up, all discipline fell apart. At night p's would just go out and have fun- parties, movies, restaurants, sex, etc., all the stuff ashram p's weren't supposed to do. One night, about 15 of us, I remember Mark Van Dorn and Alan Roettinger included, lit up some very powerfull weed, and went to see Yellow Submarine at the theater. In our double state of release and giddyness, everything that happened on the screen was hilarious. At first, everyone else in the crowded theater looked at us askance, then the contact high took over, and pretty soon the whole place was roaring with laughter! What a high that was!

I always thought that that was how knowledge would be propogated, by our laughter and joy, a natural experience. Boy, was I wrong.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:40:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Geez, I guess I missed that. Damn! I was transferred to Boston from at the Denver program in July, 1976, so all that you describe must have happened after that. Although things were definitely getting looser towards the end of my time there, I never dreamed anyone smoked dope at COLL. I also mostly worked a job, but I loved my job -- I was a zoo keeper at the San Antonio Zoo -- in the bird division. It it was the most fun job I ever had.

Alan Roettinger ended up being my community coordinator in Chicago in the late 70s. It apears he changed his tune from COLL. Remember his nutty sister? The one who became an initiator? I wonder whatever happened to her?

Actually, the survey business was during Mark Lerner's tenure. I think it might have been his idea. Erika Andersen was the head of propogation, and spouted this stuff she got from Denver like it was gospel. I was in charge of introductory programs, so I had to listen to it. It didn't last long, and ti all fell apart under its own weight.

Other than the scandal of some premie guys at COLL who were molesting little kids from the 'big brother' program, the only other sex scandal at COLL that I recall was one time when Lerner went to a conference in Denver, I think, he left someone who posts occasionally on this forum 'in charge.' Anyhow, this guy proceeded to start having sex with a very innocent and agonizingly sincere ashram sister. [She confided this to me in the middle of one night and she was more than a little freaked out.] I recall being shocked and amazed. This was towards the very end of my term at COLL.

I have to say though, there were some premies at COLL who were wonderful people, whom I admired a lot. Some of the finest people I have ever met. And, as nuts as he was, I enjoyed hanging out with Bill Patterson. He was like a big kid with boundless enthusiasm. It must have been a big deal for him when he finally dumped Maharaji.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 15:46:17 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Scary story, dv...
Message:
I hitched from Virginia to that big bridge going into the capitol, 14th st bridge I think. From there I walked all the way to the McKinley St. shram in the NW part of the city,through the South East section of DC which at the time was one big ghetto. I arrived at 5 am, after dodging a few creepy folks on the way. Of course, I was sure the grace got me home, although I think it really was fear and adrenalin.

Yow, dv! That IS scary. I have a similar story about walking through the Lower East side of NYC at 3 AM with L.A. after getting off the plane from England after Guru Puja 1973, which I'll tell sometime. I'm not sure if I thought it was grace or not, since I had done other stupid things *before* getting involved with M, and emerged unscathed. I afterwards developed the theory that we were so weird-looking and weird-acting that we scared the scary people.
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 17:33:36 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: REALLY Scary story, dv...
Message:
dv: SE DC wasn't the place to be when I was living there (80-85 timeframe). YOU were there at NIGHT? OK, OK, I do believe in grace, I do believe in grace.... I do I do I do believe in grace!
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 18:42:13 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: REALLY Scary story, dv...
Message:
I agree Mike. My idiot of an ex-husband called me from the DC bus station at 3 am for a ride once. Being incredibly naiive, I went there. Don't know if that's southeast or not but it was one of the most terrifying moments of my life.
The chicken shit was waiting inside int the BACK. make me get out of the car, surrounded by amazed hookers and what have you, and GO IN. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr\\And yes the asshole was a premie.
aarrggg
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 20:29:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Another Mirabai wannabe
Message:
One girl I knew in Calgary really trusted Maharaji. He was her Lord, saviour and constant companion, right? So, one night, in the early stages of pregnancy, she went out for a walk. Some asshole grabs her into the bushes and smashes her head in with a piece of rebar. She's lucky she made it.

Yes, you could say she experienced a bit of a 'drip' that night.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:28:04 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another Mirabai wannabe
Message:
Oh God, see that stuff makes me nuts. It's one thing to be throw yourself into the dragon's jaws, but your baby???

I had these premie friends (really good smart people) who got mugged in Rome and said it was Guru Maharaji's grace. I was like, what? I guess at that point, everything is beautiful, everything has His imprint on it, every leaf that falls--isn't that psychosis?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:32:17 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Another Mirabai wannabe
Message:
'I had these premie friends (really good smart people) who got mugged in Rome and said it was Guru Maharaji's grace.'

It reminds of the case of the woman who was attacked by her husband(he actually knifed her and cut her throat), and when asked why she didn't press charges, she said that he 'he was only expressing his love for her'.

It's like when prem broke Gary Gerrard's nose and when Gary moaned about it, prem said 'So would you rather I didn't touch you?'.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:43:29 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Another Mirabai wannabe
Message:
Do you mean MJ broke someone's nose? How? Why? Really?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:00:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Broken nose
Message:
Hello Diz

When I first joined the cult I spent a long time with one of the early PAMs. He used to tell me loads of stories about prem because he was one of the first group of westerners to discover the living lord.
Anyway one of the stories was that prem was playing with a stick with someone called Gary Gerrard(sp?) and prem pushed the stick against Gary's nose and broke it. When Gary moaned prem said something like 'Well, would you rather I didn't touch you'.
This story was meant to be an example of devotion.

I will not put out the PAM's name(yet), he is very good at representing himself verbally and I am hoping he will post himself here. I suppose that if he doesn't, I will eventually have to publish his name because he fed me so much, particularly when I first got K. I don#t believe him to be a liar. He probably knows I am now not a follower but I don't expect him to hold it against me. We were good friends and lived together both in the ashram and not.

All the best Jethro

To R:

R if you're reading this, please post, you would be a great addition here.

Regards Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:30:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Blissed out broken noses
Message:
That's a story for the Chronicles for sure. Would you care to elaborate?
Speaking of egotistical maniacs!! 'Of course I love you, I cared enough to break your nose, didn't I??'
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:48 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Blissed out broken noses
Message:
I am hoping that the premie who told me this story along woth many others will post on this forum. I don't expect him to have the needle to me because am now an ex.

However we'll see.

I am now regaining my early premie memories. Who knows maybe I'll get my memory back before Maria Torres-Evans.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 18:11:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: All night walker
Message:
Do you realize how far you walked that night? My God you walked the entire length of DC through the combat zone too. You couldn't call a cab? The ashram wouldn't pay for it?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I was:
Message:
1) Too naive
2) Too stupid
3) Too intimidated to call sopmeone at midnight at the shram.
4) Maybe wanting a little adventure (whatever gets one's off)
4) And all of the above...
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Date: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 16:29:37 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Hi JW
I have shamefacedly admitted here before that I brought my current husband to a video thing, it was in 96 I believe.

He was polite, asked me on the way home if M did any charity contributions or work.......

He never asked to go back. The premies that day were as weird as ever - my so called best friend ran out of the hall as soon asthe lights came up. I introduced him to a woman I had known since 77 and she smiled blankly and stared glassy eyed til I uncomfortably left.
weird.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:08:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Guess your husband said to himself 'Hmmm, this is a mighty strange trip, indeed. Don't think I'll be passing through this hall again.' I think my husband would have thought the same thing, I would have been too embarrassed to bring him anyway! Gee that says a lot about how I REALLY felt about this trip.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:49:51 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
Oh I was embarrassed all right! But I was still on the fence, even after years of experiences that should have taught me otherwise.
I think I meant well. ugh.......

sigh, Red Nighty is off the screen and I have this compulsion to keep the story going.

Guess I'll start a new thread now...
Hey ben, lena wants to have sex with you again.
Hey ophelia, Lena needs the addressa and phone number of that Santa Monica house you all are movin to.
OH YEAH and Mahraji? You out there? We haven't heard the story from your perspective.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 23:44:18 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tentative Italian 'Criticism'
Message:
I'm getting quite addicted to that story myself. Mainlining it all day long.....better than heroin I guess. I love the name of this thread, I think it sounds like a new type of political or literary criticism

Well I better give some attention to that neglected man of mine, he calls the forum 'my coven.'
Love
Helen
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