Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 37

From: Jan 30, 1999

To: Feb 14, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jean-Michel -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:45:50 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:07:27 (EST)
____Happy -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:30:09 (EST)
______Happy -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:32:09 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Thank s to you all -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:14:41 (EST)
________ben there -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:18:03 (EST)
__________bill -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:18:21 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:28:31 (EST)
____Way -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:50:33 (EST)
__SHP -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:49:17 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:37:01 (EST)
______SHP -:- A rose is a rose is a.... -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:34:09 (EST)
________Runamok -:- a cultist is as a cultist be -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 15:24:16 (EST)
__IronBear -:- Help reg meditation books -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:27:17 (EST)

Happily out -:- Thanks for concern and advice -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:10:48 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Thanks for concern and advice -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 17:23:25 (EST)
__ham -:- gentle approach -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:34:27 (EST)
____Happy -:- gentle approach -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 05:32:34 (EST)
______Robyn -:- gentle approach -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:29:18 (EST)
__cp -:- daughter -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 15:23:28 (EST)
____Helen -:- daughter -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:59:32 (EST)

y? -:- Juice revisited -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:11:15 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Juice revisited: more juice -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:29:06 (EST)
__JW -:- Juice revisited -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 16:37:34 (EST)
____petebear -:- Juice revisited -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:09:10 (EST)
______Helen -:- Juice revisited -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:35:50 (EST)

Rick -:- The Right Stuff -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:39:25 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- The Right Stuff: twas for me!! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:11:29 (EST)
____Gail -:- You've got the right stuff, JM -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 18:20:44 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- 9 techniques -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 21:31:38 (EST)

AE -:- Truth site under construction -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:21:23 (EST)
__AE -:- The War of the Web -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 22:32:29 (EST)
____Sam -:- The War of the Web -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 08:21:56 (EST)
______AE -:- The War of the Web -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:58:14 (EST)
____Orlando -:- try EXCITE...(nt) -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:04:39 (EST)
______ex-ex -:- try EXCITE...(nt) -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:08:48 (EST)
________AE -:- try EXCITE...(nt) -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:22:48 (EST)

Liz -:- The Kings New Clothes -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:26:20 (EST)
__Helen -:- The Kings New Clothes -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:42:44 (EST)
__barney -:- The Kings New Clothes -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:17:01 (EST)

david m -:- Quote of the day -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:12:50 (EST)
__bill -:- Quote of the day -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:49:45 (EST)
____david m -:- Quote of the day -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:20:50 (EST)
______Helen -:- Quote of the day -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:39:37 (EST)
________Zac -:- My Favorite Quote -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:54:01 (EST)
__________Gail -:- My Favorite Quote -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:28:11 (EST)
____________Zac -:- My Favorite Quote -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:00:55 (EST)
______________Gail -:- Good grief, Zac! -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:55:46 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Martian talk -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:42:00 (EST)
__________________pp -:- Martian talk -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:20:36 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- Martian talk -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:15:48 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- on friendship -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:06:33 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- on friendship -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:19:05 (EST)
______________barney -:- Thanks Zac -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:52:07 (EST)
________________Zac -:- I appreciate that Barney -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:23:16 (EST)
__________________barney -:- Yes, a survey! -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 00:58:51 (EST)
____________________x -:- more questions for survey -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 03:37:21 (EST)
______________________Zac -:- more questions for survey -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:23:11 (EST)
________________________John -:- another question for survey -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:37:10 (EST)
__________________________Zac -:- The money John, the money (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:11:02 (EST)
__barney -:- Quote of the day -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:48:28 (EST)
____david m -:- Quote of the day -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:41:19 (EST)
__Jean-Michem -:- Quote of the day & more -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:38:46 (EST)
____david m -:- Quote of the day & more -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:10:40 (EST)

TD -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:54:04 (EST)
__Helen -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:09:00 (EST)
____TD -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:08:06 (EST)
______barney -:- Mike Royko? -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:55:36 (EST)
________TD -:- Mike Royko? -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:13:43 (EST)
______Helen -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:24:33 (EST)
________TD -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:40:53 (EST)
__________Helen -:- An alternative satsang... -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:43:52 (EST)
__Willi Kranz -:- No 10,000 sunshine creams -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:32:19 (EST)
____Helen -:- No 10,000 sunshine creams -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:30:58 (EST)
____Robyn -:- No 10,000 sunshine creams -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 17:10:33 (EST)
______Helen -:- You crazy kids -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:38:07 (EST)

Sam -:- MO' Money -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:29:53 (EST)
__Sam -:- MO' Money -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EST)
__barney -:- harvest of our hearts -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:56:42 (EST)
____Selene -:- harvest of our hearts -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:12:53 (EST)
______Helen -:- harvest of rotting fruit -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:33:16 (EST)
____dv -:- harvest of our hearts -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 01:23:42 (EST)
______JW -:- Really??? -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:00:55 (EST)
________dv -:- Really??? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:40:37 (EST)
__________JW -:- David M -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:58:32 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- David Mankoff? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:17:41 (EST)
____________dv -:- David M -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:26:19 (EST)
__$HP -:- MO' Money -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:53:29 (EST)
____Gail -:- MO' Money -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:38:35 (EST)
______SHP -:- Answers for Gail from SHP -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:37:46 (EST)
________x -:- Answers for Gail from SHP -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:50:45 (EST)
__________Orlando -:- comment on comments -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 15:55:08 (EST)
____________hamzen -:- comment on comments -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:04:14 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- floss -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:42:12 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- HE MADE IT insidiously -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:22:32 (EST)
__________________Orlando -:- in your own mind -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:41:26 (EST)
________________JW -:- Oh, yes he did -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
__________________Orlando -:- no sir -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 16:52:42 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Are you Stupid? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:29:28 (EST)
______________________gerry -:- Are you Stupid? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:24:13 (EST)
______________________Orlando -:- jackass... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:15:29 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- original post re announcement -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:31:21 (EST)
____________________x -:- give up, Orlando -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:16:05 (EST)
______________________Orlando -:- again.. -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:26:15 (EST)
________________________x -:- again.. -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:07:55 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- again.. -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:50:11 (EST)
____________SHP -:- myob.... -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:59:06 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- myob....yourself -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:44:22 (EST)
________________SHP -:- Open mouth, change foot... -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:13:24 (EST)
________________shp -:- Orlando, wake up... -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:23:41 (EST)
__________________Gail -:- HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:42:22 (EST)
__________________Orlando -:- shp, get lost.. -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:19:28 (EST)
____________________SHP -:- shp, get lost.. -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:22:14 (EST)
__________SHP -:- x, think positive -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:15:08 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- x, think positive -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 20:10:15 (EST)
______________SHP -:- reply to Runamok -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:09:01 (EST)
________________Runamok -:- reply to Runamok -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:32:51 (EST)
__________________Runamok -:- reply to Runamok -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:40:49 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- reply to Runamok -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:42:16 (EST)
____________x -:- I'm trying -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:10:11 (EST)
______________SHP -:- reply to x -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:27:26 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Re: Phase II -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:25:07 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- Re: Phase II -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:56:02 (EST)
____________________Gail -:- Re: Phase II -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:45:53 (EST)
______________________x -:- Re: Phase II -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 02:41:18 (EST)
________________________Gail -:- Re: Phase II -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:00:32 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Jesus = Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:29:04 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- WHAT WHAT ?? -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:17:31 (EST)
____Sam -:- WHAT WHAT ?? -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:33:51 (EST)

Dennis -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:37:57 (EST)
__Sam -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 03:43:02 (EST)
____Dennis -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:59:50 (EST)
______bill -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:05:06 (EST)
________Dennis -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:33:20 (EST)
__________ham -:- My post-premie dilemma -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:57:19 (EST)
__bill -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:02:16 (EST)
____bill -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:07:25 (EST)
______Dennis -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:19:29 (EST)
________bill -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:48:24 (EST)
__________bill -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 03:01:48 (EST)
____________Dennis -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 15:16:13 (EST)
______________bill -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:34:43 (EST)
________________Dennis -:- My post-birth dilemma -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 01:36:05 (EST)
__Sam -:- P.S. (Dennis) -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:17:16 (EST)
____JW -:- Sam, very well said -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:54:54 (EST)

Blanco -:- ...real people...real problems -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:05:42 (EST)
__Helen -:- balls & determination -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:00:58 (EST)

dv -:- Yes, folks, it is, once again, -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:18:18 (EST)
__dv -:- M's Return On Investment -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:49:37 (EST)


Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:45:50 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
Hi you all, Gail, Runamok, Jerry, chr, and Liz

Great. Thanks to you all, we now have :

1/ Some book’s titles

'The Breathing Book' by Donna Farhi with a good excerpt
'Secrets of the Golden Flower', a Chinese meditation text in the 70's.
Reynolds, Siimon, Become Happy in Eight Minutes, Penguin Books USA (Plume), New York, 1996

2/ Some hints

Yoganandas kriya techniques
Satyananda yoga books
The kriya yoga techniques sent as part of a course by the self realization fellowship
One of Muktananda's books describing a modified nectar technique, as do many Chinese Chi Kung texts.

I hope I’ll get some more from you,
- Excerpts from the books you’ve already mentioned
- Details reg those other books.

I intend to make an informative page about the meditation techniques as taught in other traditions
- to prove that the BM has no monopoly on them
- to show that many other people have practiced them, with some benefit, without surrendering the reins of their lives to any Perfect Master/Lord of the Universe
- to help premies who’d like to leave their ‘Master’ with confidence if they feel that meditation is a valid experience in their lives
- to help the premies who really want to practice those meditation techniques finding more skilled teachers, or at least written help if they’re not satisfied with their present teacher
- to invite the Perfect Master to show more modesty reg his role as the only valid teacher of those widely known techniques

I guess this will be very helpful for lots of people. What do you think ? More ideas ?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:07:27 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
'Secret of the Golden Flower' was a translation published around the 70's, but an old text.

'Autobiography of a Yogi' references nectar but won't mention it specifically, referring to a secret technique used by some yogi in fasting. I know someone else mentions Kriya Yoga texts received by mail.

I mentioned Chi Kung, but that will also include many Tai Chi books.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:30:09 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
Hi,
in my journey (Happy Heretic) I make references to two standard
works on yoga, Hatha-yoga Pradipika, and the Gherand Samhita -
the two most highly regarded books on yoga. All yogis 'with a little self-respect' in India have written commentaries on these -
and the techniques are all there.

The 'nectar' technique is referred to as Khechari mudra, the Soham breathing is there, everything. In an excercise referred to as yoni mudra, one is actually doing all techniques at one time!
Check it out, I am sure you can find them in Paris, if that's where you live. Otherwise, I can help you around.

Then, Paul Reps' 'Zen flesh, zen bones' also describe the techniques (more or less), as do scripts on 'Taoist' (Chinese) yoga. I have made exact references in my journey.
references to these.

The 'Word', the way described by M's father and his predecessors,
clearly goes back to Guru Nanak, the first Sikh guru. He had Kabir
as his guru. Check there writings: there can hardly be any doubt about it. From the Sikh tradition, it went into the Radhasoamis, and from there - you know.

(M's full name use to be Prem Pal Singh Rawat - now he drops the 'Singh', which is a typical Sikh name. I'm not saying that his
forafathers were Sikh, since you can be called Singh without being a Sikh, but you cannot be a Sikh WITHOUT being a Singh. All Sikhs
have 'Singh' as their family name. There is much talking in favor of M's family having Sikh connections.)

Happy
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:32:09 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
sorry, some troubles with the connection resulted in spelling
mistakes an cut lines. but the gist of it came through.

H
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:14:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Happy
Subject: Thank s to you all
Message:
I guess we're getting somewhere, this is all very valuable information, and I think it will be very helpful to have this all together.

I'll need your help, from those owning the books, maybe send me some excerpts (here or via e-mail) reg what the BM now calls the 3rd technique, for instance.
Could be helpful for some people.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:18:03 (EST)
From: ben there
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
There is a book entitled Christ Consciousness. I believe the author's last name is Paulson or Paulsen. He was a devotee of Yogananda. He goes in depth into a description of the nectar technique as an additional technique beyond the Kriya techniques of Yogananda. I think his name is Darrell Paulson but it has been several years since I read it. He has a good description of the eventual effects of disciplined practice of fully extending the tongue behind the uvula and activating the subsequent hormonal releases.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:18:21 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ben there
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
Too bad it is not as good as a milk shake!

As for divine experience, death will grant you an out of body experience.

Best to live happy with your human nature package and revel in
the good stuff that you like and stop worrying about
breaking through the design constraints that were
put there for your own good.

yagoananda was confused.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:28:31 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
That's a great idea Jean-Michel. Perhaps also, some people here might like to write something about their experiences from meditation which you can put on your site.

I can speak some French, by the way, but since I haven't been to France for many years, I've become a little rusty. That message to you was translated using some software and then I cleaned it up a bit myself. But I had meant to say, 'plotting Maharaji's downfall' only it came out in the translation as 'tracing Maharaji's inversion'. Actually, I've nothing against the guy personally but he can't go around pretending to be the master, Hari or a perfect master/avatar without people like us trying to knock him off his pedestal.

I'll email you by the way. And you Robyn and Scott. Thanks for your emails.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:50:33 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
I know an ex-premie who switched some years back to Gurumai, the successor to Muktananda. She teaches techniques for a fee of $400.00, I've heard. My friend received the techniques and he told me they turned out to be the exact same four techniques of Maharaji's Knowledge. If you wish, I can contact him and ask him to write a short message of his first-hand experience with receiving those techniques from Gurumai.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:49:17 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
Here are two references to the 4th technique:

'I can give you water to drink, and if you drink it you will never be thirsty again...'
-Jesus to the Woman at the Well
(paraphrase)

******************************

'...there is a fountain....that was not made by the hands of man.'
-'Ripple'
The Grateful Dead
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:37:01 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
And similarly from me,
'Amazing how Ship can wag his tongue without addressing any point.'

What about claims that Jesus came from a UFO or was black. Aren't these also clearly referenced the bible? I personally have proof that he was gay and a direct relative of my accountant. I also talk to him, but only in the bathroom. Further, when you tell me Bible stories, I get so spiritually high I can't remember my name. And don't forget, Prem Pal Rawatt is filthy rich because Jesus wanted him to be, and because they are the same person, except Jesus is the son and Miragey is the father. except Bal Baghwan Ji is the son except Whoops! he says the master. Man, it's a good thing that book is still around, cause these masters are a bunch of FRAUDS! Oh wait, so are the bible thumpers. Look, it's a bible thumper on the forum!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:34:09 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: A rose is a rose is a....
Message:
(run) a-mok: a violent nervous disorder among the Malays, characterized by rushing about in a murderous frenzy and attempting to kill anyone in the way.

Runamok:
Q: What about claims that Jesus came from a UFO or was black. Aren't these also clearly referenced the bible?
A: Both or either claim could be true or false, it wouldn't change his message or mission one iota.

Runamok:
I personally have proof that he was gay and a direct relative of my accountant.
SHP:
You ought to do well this April if you are filing income tax.
Put in a good word for me, I could use it. (Just watch yourself in the bathroom if you are talking to him live.)

Run:
I also talk to him, but only in the bathroom.
Shp:
Yeah, I have heard about that phenomenon...something about the
heat and humidity with the shower on simulating the climate in Israel and triggering the 'God part' of your brain and your past lives.

Run:
Further, when you tell me Bible stories, I get so spiritually high I can't remember my name.
SHP:
Who said that?

Run:
And don't forget, Prem Pal Rawatt is filthy rich because Jesus wanted him to be, and because they are the same person, except Jesus is the son and Miragey is the father.
SHP:
Did he tell you that in the bathroom or was that relayed through your accountant?

Run:
except Bal Baghwan Ji is the son except Whoops! he says the master. Man, it's a good thing that book is still around, cause these masters are a bunch of FRAUDS!
SHP:
The existence of a fraud presupposes the existence of the genuine article. If you spent as much time looking for it as you spend running amok (or amuck), you could be enlighted by now and you'd be able to share the real good news with everybody and we could all relax. Ever consider that when you're in the john talking to Jesus?

Run:
Oh wait, so are the bible thumpers. Look, it's a bible thumper on the forum!
SHP:
Where?? The only thumping I'm feeling is you running amok pulling all your predictable kicking rabbits out of your threadbare hat and trying to hit me over the head with them. Your personal desolation is not my responsibility, but I would be willing to have a mutually sincere conversation with you about it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 15:24:16 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: a cultist is as a cultist be
Message:
nt

psyoujustlikeitindogmacity
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:27:17 (EST)
From: IronBear
Email: ironbear-jon@juno.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Help reg meditation books
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

Your web page is a great idea. The more ideas and methods people have for use on their spiritual path the better. Spirituality is moving into a new era of people using many techniques, methods, and teachings.

I was a member of the SRF for many years after the DLM.. and have done Kria Yoga study with them. I still incorporate Yogananda's methods and techniques in my spirituality and meditation, and really love it.

I suggested a couple of books in my posting titled 'more thoughts' that you might be interested in. They aren't specifically about meditation.. but they have been a tremendous help to me on my path.

Namaste'
IronBear-Jon
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:10:48 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks for concern and advice
Message:
Dear everybody,

I wasn't able to read the forum during the weekend, and
therefore, I didn't answer until now. Thanks, all you guys for your
concern and advice with respect to how to deal with my daughter's
cult memebership. I read all all your posts carefully,
and I want to thank you all - Diz, Sam, Sir David, CHR,
Gail, Katie, Helen, Jean-Michel, Jethro, Mike, Jim, Selene,
Robyn, Rick, Gerry - I hope I didn't forget anyone. I appreciate
very much your concern. It feels like I've got some real new friends,
who really care. I also got some valuable ideas.

I've decided to take a careful approach, too heavy deprogramming
won't work in her case. I enjoyed Sir David's 'sneaky' approach -
it might in fact work with her.

As I live in Europe, I can't use help from so called 'professional'
deprogrammers, and I think that's an absolute last resource, anyway. If
her health deteriorates more, then, that's another case. If it is
a case of life and death, then anything is allowed.

And, Red Heart, I know you are serious too, in your own way, and to some extent, you
are even partly right: it's her life. But when somebody is ruining, destroying
her perhaps only life - it's another story. Surely, you can't suggest I should just
sit by and watch? I agree with you that people have to live their own lives and
and make their own decisions, even mistakes - but as a parent,
I feel I have an obligation to say my opinion. Red heart, I don't know if you have kids -
if you do, you would act the same way.

HO
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 17:23:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Happily out
Subject: Thanks for concern and advice
Message:
Dear Happy,
Yes, David's advice was very good. Do you think you can do it? I hope so and I hope everything ends. Good luck. You are in my thoughts.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:34:27 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: gentle approach
Message:
A few thoughts re a gentle approach.
You say that she hardly speaks, is obviously into some strong experiences, will not listen...It might be worth checking out approaches like mirroring body language, 'pulsing' with her.

Something about your description of her states reminded me of a number of people with autism & Williams syndrome I've known who had retreated into very private spaces. I found it astonishing the non-verbal communication that can be achieved by sharing activities in silence, a high degree of 'love' can be shared, something she must value since it's obvious she isn't visiting to communicate and share things with you verbally.
Mirroring body language can also show you a little of how she is feeling. I've found that I've 'experienced' insights by mirroring that have increased non-verbal contact too.

Might be worth checking out some other non-verbal techniques used by n.l.p & other techniques.

Best of luck in what must be a very scary situation for you.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 05:32:34 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: ham, robyn and others
Subject: gentle approach
Message:
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind - we are going to meet during
next weekend and spend some time together.
This is a good sign.
We always had a very good and close contact, so I'm not
altogether pessimistic. But this weekend will in many
respects be crucial.

Happy(ily out)
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:29:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Happy
Subject: gentle approach
Message:
Dear Happy,
Good luck this weekend and I hope you enjoy your time together and make some headway with your daughter. You will be in my thoughts.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 15:23:28 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: dad
Subject: daughter
Message:
Hi- I have read all of the posts down below and never cease to be re- amazed at the compassion on this forum.
It was Helen I think that struck the cord with me.

Following is a process that I have thought out- of while thinking about it overnight.
It is loosly structured after my own style of parenting- which has progressed somewhat over the years -from high dysfuction to sort of tolerable. It took me a few kids to get it right though.

Any way heres what came up
- It is the Cult having her under a spell that is the trouble- not the extras.
- Growing vegtables for food and being vegitarian is ok in principle and lots of normal folk do such things.
- Her exact age is really really important, so that you can refine your approach. A 15 yr old calling you a hypocrite is very different from a seasoned 18 yr old trying to find herself through idealism. ( here I recall how cool and frosty I was around my family. NOTHING they did had meaning because they were not devoting themselves to god. That made me cool and them not.. The trouble was that all the trappings of following M got tangeld up in the picture.
- So I suggest that you ask her to cook a vegitarian dinner at your house. Ask her forsome recipes. You need to cut down on cholesterol-- or something.
_ you dust off some old yoga stretches and show her a thing or two.
- by this kind of thing , you are accepting that there are elements to what she is doing that are harmless as of themselves- in fact you may admire them.
_like it says down below-- praise the fact that she is taking her connection to god or some thing higher so serious. more people should . you can be proud of her for following that impulse.
- As for her nutrition. I believe in compromise. See, if her nutrition is down, then she could be anemic in iron or b12. That is alarming but can be worked with. Sit her down and tell her the symptoms of both of these anemias. ( Listless- ness and low energy ,funny periods.) She MIGHT be high from meditation, or she might be weak from anemia.
So-- Id bargain. You won't critisize the cult if she will take a good vitamin supplement. Find one that is not got animal products and is not tested on animals. By this you are honoring her preference. USANA vitamins are a complete food and would sustain her.
_ keep in mind that if her nutrition is down her Will is effected. An effected will means loss of the ability to make good choices. A good supplement will activate the good traits she has that have been re- routed to the cult .
- A vital thing to keep in mind that if you can listen properly , she might start to talk. If would help for her to be able to speak it. But if you are there with lectures or objections, she clam up and meditaite for protection. If the moment is right, you could explain to her that it is very common for people who are trying to establish the link to thier higher self to feel quite high spiritually, but thier soul is in lonely agony.
Soul and spirit are not the same. If you tell her that the she may start to separate wheat from shaft herself. - a short book that is good because it tells of the idealism vs individuality vs cultish stuff is ' The Wizard of Earth Sea.' Give it to her as a present.
- So I've gone on about this here, I been thinking about it for hours.
-if she needs to talk about Tofuburgers, periods, and which way up to plant the garlic cloves, all those are aspects of her life that are real. They are not the trouble. The trouble is that she is doing that stuff under the spell of the cult.
- tell her from me to watch her iron and b12. Im a vege from 1971 and it took me 50 years to figure out that I was anemic in both. I suspected it but would not eat meat.I still dont , but take a good supplement .
- if you can get to a health food store - Floridix iron in liquid form is very good for anemia.
_ Lastly- offer to by her a new wardrobe if she comes home once in a while. The new wardrobe may wake up a memory of normal. If it is hanging in a closet at her dads , she may get a whim to go and wear it some afternoon while sipping bay leaf tea under the willow tree.
_ Most important - have a sense of humor.
- with this forum keeping good thought for the two of you, it has an effect .
- if she is around 18 1/2 - it could turn around soon.
Good luck.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:59:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: daughter
Message:
Your suggestion of the Wizard of Earthsea is exactly the type of book I was thinking of. Books like that reawakened my imagination which I had repressed while into the guru.

I also agree with you about vitamins. A deficiency or hormonal imbalance can add to the 'soul's lonely agony' --I love that distinction you made about the soul and the spirit.

I would love to hear more about that distinction if you have time
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:11:15 (EST)
From: y?
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Juice revisited
Message:
Something rang true about premies being so into themselves that the senior premies tell inferior premies what to do. Probably grasping for some power after being impowered by M.

The thing that really gets me about the externals of E.V. etc. is the hierarchy. All the synchronicity that is supposed to be going on isn't.

Also these inferior premies are paying for the superior premies to travel the world with M. They are always at the programmes sitting in those front rows,

Some very expensive airfares and fancy hotels involved in this.

Is this the juice you mean or did I miss something?
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:29:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: y?
Subject: Juice revisited: more juice
Message:
I would even add to this, that EV's managers in most of the major
countries are invited to 'private' meetings or workshops with the BM (once or twice a year). This is for the BIG shots only of course. Like the NC and 1 or 2 of his assistants.

And those guys get their tickets paid by EV in most of the cases.
ie paid by the premies (NO premie usually know ANY of this because EV's accounts are not public, only the board of directors usually know this, and even not all of them - I've been part of it)

You can imagine the struggle they are into to get to that position!

I've watched it in France (and got disgusted of the show BTW), pooor poooor guys.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 16:37:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: y?
Subject: Juice revisited
Message:
I was also always amazed at the incredible WASTE of money and resources, and certainly people, around Maharaji. I guess that's because there is always another fundraiser, and always more slaves willing to do work for nothing. For example, that plane that Big M LOVES so much, is a huge waste of money, not to mention being environmentally irresponsible. But it's fun for the lord, so the premies will raise millions for it. Does anyone ask why first-class commercial travel it too burdensome for the lord?

A PAM some time ago reported that she was asked to fly from her country to Miami and wait until Maharaji wanted to see her. After 10 days of staying in a first-class hotel, Maharaji had a 15-minute meeting with her that he could have had over the phone. Premies: your donations at work. Another premie reported that Maharaji wanted a classic 1959 Cadillac, apparently to be used in M's mission to spread knowledge to the world. Yes, donations at work, premies, keep those dollars coming in!

When we used to have those 'emergency' fundraisers, when we raised up to half a million in cash (1970 dollars), and after doing that several times, over and above the normal fundraising, tithing, and money made off programs and businesses, I could never figure out where that much money went. How could Maharaji, or anyone, possibly spend that much money?

A lot of the premies just tried to emulate M's luxurious lifestyle, to the extent they could. Even the initiators got into this. I recall one time taking a female initiator 'shopping.' While she was trying to decide 'which' $300 silk blouse to buy, I was trying to figure out how to handle the ashram's debt, get some premie some dental care, continue sending out money to Maharaji in Malibu, and still get to the next program without further putting us in the red. And in some ways, the ashram premies actually ate and dressed better than many of the community premies, who were REALLY poor.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:09:10 (EST)
From: petebear
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: JW
Subject: Juice revisited
Message:
I remember back in the late 70' - around 1978 in Australia.

We got a call that we (Australia) were to recieve a new national coordinator. A guy who had been living in Australia and then took a posting in Britain and was now being transferred back. The thing was that we were all invited to contribute to the 'present' we were going to buy this person when they returned. We were going to buy them an expensive,imported new Rover V8 (which is really a pretty crappy car). We kind of went along with it and sent a few dutiful dollars. I was living in an Ashram in Canberra, Australia then.

Then when I made a trip to Sydney, I found out that this person being transferred from Britain had simply insisted that he have the car there for him when he arrived.

Consequantly every request for money made to the Canberra Ashram was closely scrutinised. e.g.
* Lets send Malcolm over - he's making a movie for Maharaj Ji and he's close to BM
* We need money for the coordinators
* We need money for the instructors
etc, etc

After a while we jacked up and told them to piss off. For a while - about 9 months, we had a healthy functioning, intimate, friendly, ashram where conflict was managed not avoided, health was a priority, respect was generally shown and where we reduced our debts and saved a lot of money. Naturally the national coordinating team got concerned and transferred us to other places. They did this craftily by sucking us in with better offers.
* You go here and coordinate this ashram
* You go there and help build the BM's new house in brisbane
They then transferred a real dill to be the local coordinator after letting him know what a trouble spot we were.

Nevertheless I did experience some great human cooperation and learning during that time - nothing to do with the K or SS&M - all to do with getting to know other people and developing, temporarily at least, good relationships.

Cheers

Peter Howie
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:35:50 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: petebear
Subject: Juice revisited
Message:
You know what they say:
'An ashram functioning in a healthy way makes trouble for our Lord.' Did you all get too big for your britches?

Great story.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:39:25 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: The Right Stuff
Message:
In a thread that's just about to go inactive, Nil writes:

I'm here to tell you his directions have worked perfectly for me. If you were to believe me, you'd have to retrace your steps to see where YOU went wrong. If that's too hard for you... you're stuck.

May I ask you, Mr. Nil, what directions have worked perfectly for you? And when you say they've worked perfectly, what do you mean? It's useless to say we wouldn't understand if you explained. That would only establish to people reading this forum to find out more about Guru Maharaj Ji, or thoses sitting on the fence, that you have no credibility. Really, go ahead and spell it out... what instructions and how did they work. Tell us about it.

I've retraced the steps a thousand times. Maybe I'm re-tracing the wrong steps, or re-tracing them incorrectly. What are the steps you took, and what were the results?
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:11:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The Right Stuff: twas for me!!
Message:
Hi Rick,

You just stole my place !

I know what went wrong, and when !

The day I finally admitted that m was not what I believed he was (even though he pretended not to be) ie 'The Lord of the Universe', then everything went down the drain ....

Nothing has changed 'inside' if there is any place like this.
My feeling are still the same, but not m's property

AND IT NEVER WAS !

That's why I say he IS a charlatan, and a very obnoxious one.

Nil (and most of the premies) believe he is the LOTU.

They experience it, fine for them.

But what a lame master: more than 90% of his students are 'lost', and he's still proud of himself!

I would be out of my job with such bad records. I would be ashamed!
I guess definitely the BM doesn't have much ego and pride!

What a bad teacher. Moneywise he's fine, that's probably the only criteria for him.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 18:20:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You've got the right stuff, JM
Message:
Very well put. BTW, I was talking to my ex today. We had a very interesting chat. I told him the the old K (before Prem Pal) had seven techniques. Could you please tell me what they were or point me to the right spot on your site?
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 21:31:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 9 techniques
Message:
I don't have them on my site!
As far as I remember, some 'vintage' exes who received k in the old days from some Indian mahatmas were taught them.
This has been discussed here on the Forum, and should be somewhere in the archives.
It looks like there were 5 more 'holy names' ...
If you read the Radhasoami stuff, they talk of various stages in the holy name experience, and it looks like those various holy names have to be used one after the other to go deeper into it.
The BM doesn't know this of course!
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:21:23 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Truth site under construction
Message:
I'm currently developing a new site which will have the unvarnished truth about Maharaji told, as witnessed by ex-premies who have been in close proximity to him. The truth about Maharaji will be entirely made up of contributions sent to this forum and also anything else which people post directly to me.

I'll be putting some eye-witness accounts on line in the next few days. Meanwhile, you're welcome to post me anything too.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 22:32:29 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The War of the Web
Message:
It's a war and we're winning. Do a search for 'maharaji' on Altavista and you'll see what I mean.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 08:21:56 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: The War of the Web
Message:
Very interesting; my search on Alta Vista came up with 2446 matches dealing with Maharaji, or Elan Vital, DLM aka Prim Rawat, etc., and it appears the majority of the sites are critical of the dude. Well he brought this upon himself. If he honestly wanted to spread knowledge, not that I care, he should have left things as they were in the early 70's. No money, no registration, no intense security at programs. He should'nt have started the 'Lord' bit. I think if he had continued some open air programs, like in Central Park, etc. as he did in Montrose 1971, and just call the knowledge meditation and himself a meditation teacher, not making any promises, he might have averted all this flack.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:58:14 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: The War of the Web
Message:
I seem to remember that Maharaji was calling himself the Lord even back in 1971 in Montrose. Wasn't that the program where he said that he was alright because he was high enough etc etc.

He was billed then as the Lord of the Universe. I remember seeing all the premies at that program doing pranam at the end of Maharaji's satsang. It never was just a meditation. It had to be the Lord of the Universe come with more power than ever before and the ultimate knowledge of God etc, for it to sell. And back in those days there was a constant demand for more money to be given to DLM and the holy family.

On another track, by Maharaji calling us his enemies, he has declared war on us. It seems he's spoiling for a fight. OK Maharaji, you want a war, you've got it!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:04:39 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: try EXCITE...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:08:48 (EST)
From: ex-ex
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: try EXCITE...(nt)
Message:
What does (nt) mean?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:22:48 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: try EXCITE...(nt)
Message:
I believe 'NT' is an abbreviation for 'no text' meaning that there is no written message, only the title.

I did look on excite and it's the same story there too. A few pro Maharaji sites listed and hoards of ex-premie sites swallowing them up!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:26:20 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Kings New Clothes
Message:
When I was about seven years old I did a pantomime at school called 'The Kings New Clothes.' I was the little beggar-boy who exclaimed, 'Isn't it grand, isn't it fine, the cut, the style, the line. The king is in his altogether, he's altogether as naked as the day that he was born. Those eyes of mine at once determine the sleeves of velvet, the cape of ermine, the hose of blue and a doublet in a lovely shade of green. Somebody send for the queen. The king is in his altogether, he's altogether as naked as the day that he was born!'

The first time I saw M on stage with his crown on, that song was singing in my head. I thought I would share this with you because after thirty years I have become like that beggar boy again and I have never told anyone this before.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:42:44 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: The Kings New Clothes
Message:
Bravo, Liz. Perhaps it was a little foreshadowing of your life to come. The Emperor's New Clothes is the perfect parable for our ex-Lord
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:17:01 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: The Kings New Clothes
Message:
Liz,

Be sure to read my post to you under Still Meditating?

I really want you to know that I'm not going to flak you. I don't think that I enter into to many heated debates on the Forum.

I tend not to flak real people posting real stuff. I was sensing that IronBig-Jon (Iron BJ?) was a phony ambush poster that we seem from time to time.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:12:50 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
Hey guys i know it has been a while ,but here goes.Thanks to all of you for your support{you guys know what i mean} But any i found a nice qote from Malibu Ca June 11 1978
{Look it's beyone liberation. it's beyond all those things.Beyond all concepts.In this lifetime,we have the opportunity to realize,to be with,GURU MAHARAJ JI Be it not GURU MAHARAJ JI -You know maybe they ,didn't call him GURU MAHARAJ JI-Maybe they called him Lord,Anything To be with that power. To be withtht thing, Tobe not infinite. And yet to be with the infinite. To be here as individuals. and yet to be able to benext to the person who is everything,GURU MAHARAJ JI. The Lord all powerful}............There you all have if you dont know it he is the lord....Boy he has screwed up a few times recently....but i will leave that to ya'alls own opinion....many thanks to all in my true time of need .There are some of you out there i did not get back to ,but thereis only so much of me, and to those of you that haved saved my LIFE MY HEART IS ALWAYS WITH YOU....peace....love....david m.......
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:49:45 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
I have to admit your trauma haunted me.
Couldn't help imagining about your daughter and the factors
involved.
But I do come back to the feeling that she is A-ok.
Really in a good shape.
I happened to be turning the tv channels and what I came
across was a show about that comedian that passed on in front
of his friends at the highway. They retold the story and
it was even better than I told you. The freinds themselves
were really truly saved from the worst of it because they saw
that he went somewhere voluntarily and with pleasure.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:20:50 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
Hwy bill....Dig what your saying completely....there is no pain guilt,depression mind...but let me say this life is good..lots of bumps in the road...and what path you choose to take im trying to stay right down the middle.. I have done mucho looking inside,,,and im trying to understand what the hell went wrong..but thanks for the vibe and Hey you Guru Maharaj ji I hope you had a blissfull day today after all thats is really what the whole trip really is all about .. feeling comfortable and leading the flock ....Hey Pal wha about the most precious of feelings.... i think i better stop...peace...love...david m
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:39:37 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
Good to see you here david. You've had a heart wrenching experience I know. May you experience comfort and grace and the love of all your friends..peace,
Helen
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:54:01 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My Favorite Quote
Message:
You know... you can never, ever in you life leave the ashram...
GMJ 1979 Kiss of Death Ashram Meeting

What the f**k was up with that?
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:28:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: My Favorite Quote
Message:
'You've been on the operating table just long enough to realize that the patient is you.'

--No kidding.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:00:55 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: My Favorite Quote
Message:
Hi Gail- Yeah on the operating table, but no novacaine please I want to feel this. This page has forced me to re-think this whole thing. You know it's like giving someone a quote on a job and they keep changing things in the middle and expect me to keep my price the same. Well you try to work with them for a while but then you finally blow your top. I continue to have a positive experience with this knowledge, but clearly am not interested involving myself beyond that. I have been questioning so much of what happens around the organization for years. For me it's just not worth bothering with it anymore. As for Maharaji, if he is not the savior of the world, Lord incarnate, he is crazy! What the hell does he think he can get away with here? No way does the experience justify the bullshit associated with the organization or the cultish programming, brainwashing etc. A couple of weeks ago after I'd been reading this page I bumped into a premie who started talking about how you shouldn't have friends. That really woke me up; It sounded like martian talk. So as you surely know I am between worlds. No matter what 'No more martian talk!'
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:55:46 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Good grief, Zac!
Message:
Of course, the premie forgot to mention that if you admit to reading here, your premie friends will be a thing of the past. Remember this one?

FRIENDS, WHAT ARE FRIENDS. ALL THEY WANT TO KNOW IS WHAT YOU'RE GOOD FOR. THEY NEED YOUR ADDRESS TO KNOW WHERE TO POP DOWN TO. THEY WANT TO BORROW YOUR LAWNMOWER.

FRIENDSHIP IS LIKE BLOWING INTO A BALLOON. AS SOON AS YOU STOP BLOWING, IT DEFLATES! (This certainly describes MJ's brand of friendship--te he he.)
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:42:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail/Zac
Subject: Martian talk
Message:
Yup, that attitude about friendship is sick sick sick
'Martian talk'--that's a good one!
What do all you premies out there have to say about this???
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:20:36 (EST)
From: pp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Martian talk
Message:
Dearest Sister:
So glad you asked!
The Master teaches a hard lesson.
Our lives are temporary fragments of imagination, they are but wisps of blown nothingness sent hither and thither and yon by the winds of time.
The Master teaches the one true thing, the one true friend we have, our divine connection within inside to Him, our secret lover, our divine companion. Outer friends are but a distraction to us, they steal our time and attention away from the lover within. Don't give yourself to friends, they all die in the end anyway, and all they want is your lawnmower, and they won't even fill it up with gas after they use it. The Master teaches us to hoard our love and our possessions, don't give your precious love to someone who just wants your lawnmower! Seriously, even Jim would agree there's no logic in that! Keep your love and your lawnmower. Don't let anyone have either.
Thus teaches the Master of Nothingness!

- Excerpted from my soon to be forthcoming book
The Inner Game of Lawncare
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:15:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: pp
Subject: Martian talk
Message:
That is so beautiful! Tell me dear Guru what is your address, I'll send you a check right away!! You know I am so blissed out now...every blade of grass when I do lawn care will have new significance Oh thank you!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:06:33 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: on friendship
Message:
Yo Helly,

Q: What do all you premies out there have to say about this???
A: Madame Speaker, I wish to defer my time to Senator Kahlil Gibran (been watching waaaaay too much impeachment on TV!)

Senator Gibran:
'And a youth said, Speak to us of friendship.
And he answered, saying:
Your friend is your needs answered.
He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving.
And he is your board and your fireside.
For you come to him in your hunger,
and you seek him for peace.

When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the 'nay' in your own mind, nor do you withhold the 'ay'.
And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart;
For without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectations are born and shared, with joy that is unacclaimed.
When you part from your friend, you grieve not;
For that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absense, as the mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain.

And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit.
For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth: and only the unprofitable is caught.

And let your best be for your friend.
If he must know the ebb of your tide,
let him know its flood also.
For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill?
Seek him always with hours to live.
For it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness.
And in the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures.
For in the dew of little things, the heart finds its morning and is refreshed.'

Senator Gibran now yields the remainder of his time to Senator Yogananda who will be channelling the late Senator Sri Yukteswar:

'Friends of other lives easily recognize one another in the astral world. Rejoicing at the immortality of friendship, they realize the indestructibility of love, often doubted at the time of the sad, delusive parting of earthly life.'

Senator Yogananda now speak for himself in an excerpt from 'Where There is Light:
'Friendship is the purest form of God's love because it is born of the heart's free choice and is not imposed upon us by familial instinct. Ideal friends never part; nothing can sever their fraternal realtionship.
The treasure of friendship is the richest possession, because it goes with you beyond this life. All the true friends you have made you will meet again in the home of the Father, for real love is never lost.
When perfect friendship exists either between two hearts or within a group of hearts in a spiritual relationship, such friendship perfects each individual.'

Senator Yogananda yields to Supreme Court Chief Justice Jesus:
'Greater love has no man than that he lays down his life for his friends.'

Friendship between people and devotional friendship to a Master are definitley not the same animal. But I believe that both have their place and function in life.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:19:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: on friendship
Message:
That's beautiful, man.

I also think friendship can be hard work, but most of the time it's worth it!!

Love
Hell
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:52:07 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Thanks Zac
Message:
Zac,

We are lucky to have you around here because of your perspective where you are having a positive experience with this knowledge, yet wish to avoid the Martian talk of premies and the organization.

I think that it's great that you are having a positive experience. I am hoping that as soon as I can disassociate Maharaji and all the bullshit from meditating that I will do it again.

Posts like yours might give hope to involved premies who feel the same way regarding Knowledge and maybe they see that they don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Also, your contributions here show that there is balance and a wide range of perspectives and not just unreasonable negativity.

I really can't believe that there is still Martian talk regarding not having friends. That is so old, sick and dysfunctional. It should be a huge clue to the power, control, and effectiveness of the brainwashing that goes on in the cult.

Wake up, premies! Get off the operating table now before it's too late! You can still experience Knowledge, but you can leave the crap behind.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:23:16 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: I appreciate that Barney
Message:
I appreciate your comments and your posts. You know, I read the ELK page only a couple of times and it truly put me to sleep. Then someone at a video event told me about this page and it is the best. Interesting real, stuff, funny too. Best on the net, For a former Googoo doll. Anyway I loved that poll and was thinking we could come up with some other interesting survey's that could further illustrate the growth and understanding of the premies following this page. What do ya think? hehehe
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 00:58:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Yes, a survey!
Message:
Good idea, Zac.

I'm not sure that Roger has the technology readily available (eg. CGI scripting is beyond him right now), but he might take the project on.

What questions should the survey have?

Raised with what religion
Religion at time of receiving K
Current religious belief
Practiced meditation prior to K
Year first heard of Maharaji
Year rec'd K
Believed Maharaji was God (yes,no)
Years actively practicing K
Years attending satsang
Years attending videos
Years attending programs
Number of programs attended outside of home country
Year stopped meditating
Year stopped believing Maharaji
Reasons for many of the above
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 03:37:21 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: more questions for survey
Message:
Barney,
Here's some more questions you might add:
When did you start REALLY doubting?
What was the final straw, what broke the spell?
Do you regret your MJ experience, entirely? Did you get anything good from it at all?
How much money would you estimate you've donated over the years?
How did you get indoctrinated, what sold you on gmj?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:23:11 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: x and Barney
Subject: more questions for survey
Message:
How much money would you estimate you've donated over the years including trips to programs. Oh baby that hurts! We could have the answers in terms like, One first class trip around the world, or one childs education at an Ivy league university, Or simply a monthly annuity at age 65 (boy will I be tired then) of say $500. Or maybe a 35' sailboat with five years marina fees included. The sky's the limit of course...let's not be reasonable about any of this..(he never was).
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:37:10 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: another question for survey
Message:
Is kissing his feet the stupidest, most shameful thing you ever did in your life, bar none?

My answer - YES!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:11:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: John
Subject: The money John, the money (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:48:28 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
Thanks for the quote, David.

That pretty much says it if you've got a reading comprehension above the 2nd grade.

I liked it so much that I've added it to the main page at the House of Drek

Take care.

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:41:19 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Quote of the day
Message:
Hey Barney....
Just checked it out...coool.and you are right...2nd grade level...peace...david m
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:38:46 (EST)
From: Jean-Michem
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Quote of the day & more
Message:
That's a strong one, and I thought it deserved a place on a shrine for eternity!

There it is, amongst a few others where

M said he is .... what he said he is not.

Premies will understand .....
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:10:40 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Jean-Michem
Subject: Quote of the day & more
Message:
Hey Man....You have it all there...it is time that all Premies of GM...really see the Light.Is it real or Just another con....
I respect that they a have given their lives..for this cause but there are too many missing pieces to what the whole trip is really about...by the way if you would like to speak with me personally Maharaji...call 313-884-1318...I would love to speak to you on a very serious subject.......but thanks again Jean....there is light at the end of the tunnell
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 18:54:04 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
The following blurb will be familiar to a lot of Aussie readers and also those of you around the world who read this when it was circulated as an e-mail attachment some years back. It was sent out as a speech given by an American principal to his graduating class from high school, and the director, Baz Luhrmann (Strictly Ballroom/Romeo & Juliet) got hold of it and turned it into a very successful song here, using a local American actor in Sydney speaking the words and that little dude who sang ‘When Doves Cry’ in R&J singing an amazing angelic chorus. He called it Everybody’s Free to Wear Sunscreen, and yesterday I was listening to it and thought that Maharaji could pick up a few tips on how to give a semi-decent satsang by listening to this. Anyway thought some of you might enjoy it, so here goes.....

*******

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Class of 97....

Wear sunscreen. If I could offer you one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it! The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proven by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience. I will dispense this advice now.

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth. Oh, never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they’ve faded. But trust me. In 20 years, you’ll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can’t grasp now, how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked. You are not as fat as you imagine.

Don’t worry about the future or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation while chewing bubble gum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind, but the kind that blindsided you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday.

Do one thing everyday that scares you. Sing. Don’t be reckless with other people’s hearts. Don’t put up with people who are reckless with yours. Floss. Don’t waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you are ahead. Sometimes you are behind. The race is long, but in the end, its only with yourself.

Remember compliments you receive. Forget the insults. If you succeed in doing this, tell me how. Keep your old love letters. Throw away your old bank statements. Stretch. Don’t feel guilty if you don’t know what you want to do with your life. The most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. Some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know, still don’t.

Get plenty of calcium. Be kind to your knees. You’ll miss them when they’re gone.

Maybe you’ll marry. Maybe you won’t. Maybe you’ll have children. Maybe you won’t. Maybe you’ll divorce at 40. Maybe you’ll dance the ‘Funky Chicken’ at your 75th wedding anniversary. Whatever you do, don’t congratulate yourself too much, or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance, but then so are everybody else’s.

Enjoy your body. Use it every way you can. Don’t be afraid of it or what other people think of it. It’s the greatest instrument you’ll ever own. Dance. Even if you have no where to do it but in your own living room. Read the instructions even if you don’t follow them. Do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly.

Get to know your parents. You’ll never know when they’ll be gone for good. Be nice to your siblings. They’re your best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future. Understand that friends come and go, but with the precious few, you should hold on to. Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle, ‘cause the older you get, the more you will need the people who knew you when you were young.

Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard. Live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft. Travel. Accept inalienable truths. Prices will rise, politicians will philander. You too will get old, and when you do, you’ll fantasise that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders. Respect your elders. Don’t expect anyone else to support you. Maybe you’ll have a trust fund. Maybe you’ll have a wealthy spouse, but you never know when either might run out.

Don’t mess too much with your hair, or by the time you’re 40, it will look 85.

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than its worth. But trust me on the sunscreen.

******

Apparently, when Baz was trying to locate the original person who wrote it, it ended up being the work of some columnist from a Chicago paper who wrote it as the kind of principal speech we all wish we'd been given! Pity, but who cares. I still like it!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:09:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
Terrific advice I'd say! Thanks
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:08:06 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
Thanks Helen. I also meant to add that after this song came out, a comedian here did one in response. Basically a very non-politically correct piss-take, but very funny all the same. For example.....Get to know your parents. They're really good for getting money out of...... etc etc

I've been trying to track it down. If I do, I'll post it as well. That way I'll cover both angles. Ha-ha.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:55:36 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Mike Royko?
Message:
It was attributed to a Chicago newspaper columnist?

Might have been Mike Royko. Reads like him. He died last year, I think. He wrote some really funny stuff.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:13:43 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Mike Royko?
Message:
Could have been. I just heard that it was a Chicago newspaper. I vaguely recall the name Chicago Tribune. Is that his paper, or have I got it wrong?
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:24:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
ho ho, did I tell you I have family in Australia? My aunt and cousins have given us funny Aussie records and folk tapes. If I could ever get there I'd be able to stay with cousins in Sydney, Tazmania, and New Zealand--the air fare is the problem
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:40:53 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
Yeah, I remember you told me your Aussie cousin once told his American boss to go fuck himself, isn't that right? Good old Aussies with their rustic charm, eh?

Helen you have GOT to come down and visit your family (and me, while you're at it, of course!) while Australia's dollar is still so totally shithouse! You could live in the style Maharaji's used to, down here with just a bit of your Yankee pocket-change!

Oh and there's this amazing little restaurant here called Daya's Fine Dining. Bit pricey for what you get, and when its open, always packed, but no one ever complains about anything there, not the food, service, nothing - isn't that incredible? Mind you it helps that the maitre'd is the daughter of the Lord of the Universe.....if you come, I'll try and book us a table.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:43:52 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: An alternative satsang...
Message:
Ho ho, Daya's restaurant eh?
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:32:19 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: Gothman@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mrs TD
Subject: No 10,000 sunshine creams
Message:
Hello Down Underneath, Mrs Defective!.haha! Yes it is, Willi Kranz.

I do not remembering the Guru Maharj ji saying these things about the sunshine cream, so we should not trust this premie with many opinions. Perhaps this man is making a blasphemy, and you are also. Please be careful. This really is not 'satsang' and you perhaps are knowing it. Gunther says it is an error to think that the sunshine is the light. The Guru Maharaj ji is giving us a light that is more glowing than ten-thousand sunshines and we don't need ten thousand ointments. That is the beautiful thing or the devotees get 'blistered-out'! haha! Floss is never so bad advice but he says nothing about wearing the hygenic deodorant which is more important when I drinking schnapps or getting down with some freaky chicks. Then the man saying 'Keep your old love letters.' He is needing a psychiatric, the old bongo. I have many, many letters from the bier garten ladies which describe carnal enjoyments that making my face red and the hairs on end. I must burn them all in case Robyn sees. Today we rehearsing in the studio our new song, and because my Englisch is improving very much I write these lyrics: 'Oh My Guru Maharaj Ji, you are God and have provided for me an experience quite appropriate for my crazy appetite!' What do you think? But then Noriko puts the plectrum in her mouth, and is playing the bass guitar with her thumbs. I say 'Noriko, what do you think you are doing?' She says me 'It is a funky thumb-slapping. Don't you know The Level 42 band and The Stanley Clarke?' So I am getting shocked and must put Noriko firmly in her place. 'We are a Rock gruppe. Now wash out your mouth with deodorant or you are expelled from the Blisskid.' Noriko gasps like horror, but then the plectrum is stuck in her throat so she does not breathe so good. This is a big nuisance for us all because the studio time is costing many marks every minute. But we cannot finish the album if Noriko is stopped breathing so we fetch the van so we can go to the krankenhaus and Gunther is bringing his very expensive camera too. I say 'Gunther, my friend, why are you bringing this very expensive camera in a medical emergency?' and Gunther answers me 'If she is croaking we may put Noriko on the sleeve and sell many records'. 'That is not loving or considerate of you, Gunther in a humanitarian crisis, even if we achieve the cool sleeve-shot. The Guru Maharaj Ji tells us the human life is the very precious gift from him, and I think it is a sensible policy that we should try to save Noriko's life as a priority, even though she is playing funk riffs and the best die young, also.' But by now Otto has had an idea. He slaps Noriko on the back very hard and out comes the plectrum and plenty of beanshoot barfing (this how you say 'chunder' in Australia, Mrs TD, no?) Gunther takes sleeve photos from some different angles and hurrah! Noriko is alive and says she will not play funky music ever again. This is the Grace working in our daily lives, if you need some proof.

Bis spater,
Willi
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:30:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: No 10,000 sunshine creams
Message:
Willi, you been hitting the amphitamines again, pal? You are way wired man. But you are making me ho ho at work and my boss thinks I am laughing at her jokes, ho ho
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 17:10:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: No 10,000 sunshine creams
Message:
My DEAREST Willi,
My darling, I don't know what the frock you just said except the part about the love letters and I am seriously hoping you destroyed them to stay in my good graces. You must realize how hot you are to me that I don't even care if you perch on every word of the big BM! Just knowing you are doing music and studio time fills me with longing for your hot rock man presence. I hope your hot sleeve of Noriko barfing is as good or better than if she bit the big one and that you will soar to fame and finally have the funds to come to my house in a limo and take me out to celebrate! I would insist that we go far away from here or we may end up parting with cows or cow farmers! :)
You never got back to me about those children that were lost in the mail. I am so conserned for their safety, you know those postal workers are not in their right minds! Of course you would no what not being in your right mind is all about but it is OK for you as you are a hot rocker and it is expecting and even desirable!
LOVE,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:38:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn & Willi
Subject: You crazy kids
Message:
Whoa I am scorching myself reading this hot correspondence. You should put XXX on your posts to each other, Willi and Robyn, to warn us that our third eye meditation will go right down into our root chakras!!

I will have to take a cold shower just like my Guru says to do!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:29:53 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MO' Money
Message:
Just got a mailing today from Elan Vital, along with a picture of maharaji, the letter was signed by Linda Gross and Yoram Weis. It states in bold letters 'A Personal, Direct Service Opportunity' and requests permission for automatic monthly withdrawals, of a specified amount, from my bank account to go to EV/M. It also states that I must give 30 days notice to cancel my permission. A very dangerous and foolish thing to do! Although I am sure that there are people out there who will give EV/M automatic access to their bank account. The letter goes on to talk about M's plans for 1999, or as they're called in the letter 'challenges'. It ends saying; 'Simply put, our contributions are the harvest of our hearts', jeezzzzz. Again, I'm sure, especially the religous folks who believe in tidings, who will allow EV/M automatic monthly access to their bank accounts.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MO' Money
Message:
Thought I'd add some statistics here from the EV letter I've just received. It states that a record number of 20,062 people received knowledge in 1998 worldwide. In 1998 155 new videos were produced and distributed to over 2,300 locations worldwide. 86,600 people from 50 countries participated in the satellite broadcast, and they want more money to spruce up Amaroo in 1999. While I'm sure www.enjoyinglife will rejoice in this kind of propaganda, maharaji had many more followers in the 1970's then he has today, and many more were receiving knowledge in a given year. Further, 86,600 divided by 50 averages to only 1,732 people per country, which is not allot of people. Just thought I'd set the numbers straight.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:56:42 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: harvest of our hearts
Message:
harvest of our hearts

Indeed! Let's advance sell our organs to allows us to help Maharaji's dreams come true.

Speaking of harvesting organs, I'm sure that we all know premies who were so poor that they were weakly weekly donors at blood banks for cash.

Having dropped out not too long ago, I received such requests for automatic withdrawls. I considered doing it for the convenience, but then considered that it might not be such a good idea because bottomline I didn't trust these people and was afraid that their computer might occassionally make mistakes.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:12:53 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: harvest of our hearts
Message:
forgive me for mentioning you w/o permission Gail but I remember
you posting about how you had the money being withdrawn automatically from your account. did you ever get it back?
I know you had considered trying.
This bullshit makes me sick. Sometimes I get bored with posting and reading here and I get into the premie-think they keep posting here - they keep posting saying 'Get over it, move on'
then I read shit like this and it makes me want to post.
And write.

Lena of the Red Nighy, no it is not time to quit, not just yet.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:33:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: harvest of rotting fruit
Message:
Don't give up Lena!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 01:23:42 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: harvest of our hearts
Message:
El asked me last year to consider some program they had where I would take out a loan for them. I don't TEEEEENK SOO!
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:00:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Really???
Message:
El asked me last year to consider some program they had where I would take out a loan for them.

Are you kidding? That's something DLM did in the early 70s and what we told premies to do to raise money for that ridiculous plane the lord wanted. Do you have any more details on this?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:40:37 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Really???
Message:
There was a little tour I think in early 98 or late 97, where David M. had a little slide show detailing M's finances, what it was going to cost to fly the plane, the revenue breakdown of contributing p's, etc. One of the programs offered was that we would take out loans. I don't know any more than that, as I never pursued it. Rajaji ended by mumbling a few words about dedication, plus pointedly telling us we were most definitely Not to bring newcomers to m's premie events. I don't remeber who David was representing, EL, Visions, or what.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:58:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: David M
Message:
Who is 'David M?'

Do you recall what the slides showed? I doubt they showed what M's income is, only what the costs are.

Did you ever hear, in one of these meetings, that perhaps Big M could try and travel somewhat more economically?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:17:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: David Mankoff?
Message:
I guess the BM made him an instructor about 5 years ago.

He made some new full-time instructors recently, I don't recall their names.
One south-american woman living in LA, and a few others.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:26:19 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: David M
Message:
Yes, David Mankoff. No talk of flying cheaper. The slides were similar to the powerpoint presentation he did at one of the Miami programs.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:53:29 (EST)
From: $HP
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: MO' Money
Message:
Sam,

Sam: Again, I'm sure, especially the religous folks who believe in tidings....

Me: Just to set the record straight and not to pick nits, it's called 'tithing' from 'tithe' (meaning one-tenth, 1/10, 10%). In my present world, that's a hell of alot (too much) to donate to any cause. Also, there's a weird side to giving up so much authority to bank computers, not to mention the EV org., and all the possibilities that could arise.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:38:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: $HP
Subject: MO' Money
Message:
I'm glad to see you have some common sense. If I were still in the cult, I would be uping my ante right now. I can tell you that. My head would tell me that 'it's the least I could do for the Lard (especially since I haven't realized K after all these years).'

What do you think of his latest message? He has fulfilled his lifelong mission of spreading K to the world. Now he is going to do what he wants (as if he didn't before). Did you get this message, too?

The old Satguru is too much, isn't he? He should redo the tune, 'Still Crazy After All These Years' and dedicate it to all of us dumb doras who held on to fantasies without one iota of substance. I am happy to say that my ex sounds a lot more rational about the whole thing. How long can you run on belief alone?

I hope you are doing well, Sandy. It takes a while to get your ducks in a row. I hope you have found employment. :>)
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:37:46 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Answers for Gail from SHP
Message:
Hey Gail,

Q: What do you think of his latest message?
A: The only place I have heard about this message (fulfilling his father's agya of spreading Knowledge to the world) is on this site. But I haven't been to a program lately, and it may have been announced there.

Q: He has fulfilled his lifelong mission of spreading K to the world. Now he is going to do what he wants (as if he didn't before). Did you get this message, too?
A: I never considered a satellite hookup to be the equivalent of the fulfillment of spreading Knowledge to the world. If this statement really was made by him, (his announcement of fulfilling his father's agya with the satellite hookup), it boggles me.

Here is where I am at, Gail. From my own learning about Jesus, he flagrantly broke the most sacred of all the laws of his people,
the Sabbath. He and his disciples would hike from town to town where Jesus would talk to and heal people. As they would hike through the fields, they would grab a handful of corn or wheat and rub it in their hands to shuck the grain hulls and eat as they went. This was a very big deal back then, and to all contemporary eyes, these guys were openly breaking the Sabbath by picking food and walking long distances. Then there was Mary Magdelene, the prostitute, who was about to GET KILLED by STONING (this was a VERY big deal...you have to put yourself there to get the impact)...and Jesus breaks it up and rebukes the men to clean up their own acts before judging her....another very big deal at the time...this was a very patriarcal society, and this guy was seriously rocking the boat of the dominant social order (Rome and Hebrew priesthood), to the point of his being nailed up.

Please don't think I'm Bible-thumping you with Jesus stories or something...his basic teachings are a big part of my make-up and thinking processes, and that's why I referred to him. I'm not coming from a 'religious' (Christian sect) place, just a love for him and what he stood for, no strings attached.

Why do I bring all this up about Jesus? Because I think I understand that when we find ourselves in an era of new/ancient enlightenment information being disseminated periodically to humanity, it seems that all bets are off during these times, new paradigms are set, the status quo changes and there is a transitional period that seems very weird. That is why I don't jump to conclusions about Maharaji. Call me a jerk or anything you want. I have to be true to myself...and I have had undeniable experiences with Maharaji and Knowledge that I just can't rationialize away as bogus at this time. Some of these experiences have connected inside me as being genuine and transitive to other teachers I have learned about. Things I have read on this site have however made me aware and concerned about the negative experiences of some of my fellow human beings with the same person.

I am aware that there are mind control trips and that someone can think they are having some sort of genuine experience and just be under someone's control who has a more powerful brain trip. And then I believe there is the genuine article, too. That's one hell of a paper bag to punch out of, to get to the truth of that scenario. I believe in the example of the bamboo finger-trap
which is that little cylinder of woven bamboo that you get at carnivals, etc. You insert a finger in each end and then you are 'caught'. The harder you pull, the tighter you are caught, and the looser you stay, the easier you can extricate yourself from the trap. I believe that ancient little toy contains a major eternal lesson of life.

Q: How long can you run on belief alone?
A: Until the truth becomes known.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 14:50:45 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Answers for Gail from SHP
Message:
Shp,
Gail asked you what you thought of Maharajis latest statement, something to the effect that he has fulfilled his fathers mission to bring peace to the world, and now he's going to do what he wants(as if he doesn't already). The obvious implication being that he considers his world satellite event to be the equivalent to,'bringing peace to the world'.
Anyway, your answer is that you have only read about his new statement here, you haven't been to a program lately, blah blah blah. Is this some way of saying that you can't really comment, because that statement at this point to you is merely hearsay? Do you think someone here made it up? You don't believe Maharaji said that? I've only heard that new statement here, and I have no trouble believing it. In fact, it sounds so exactly like what he would say, that I'm sure he did. No one has denied that he said this, yet, so its pretty basic to assume it's true.
Then you go back into your 'jesus blew everyones mind' defense, which is pretty lame, and you know it. Since Jesus did some weird things, supposedly, if he even existed, that makes it ok for Maharaji to be an asshole? And why are you so obsessed with jesus running through the cornfields eating wheat on the Sabbath? Big deal. I don't think that compares with some of the shameless hustling Maharaji and his cohorts are accomplishing.IMO.
Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter in the long run anyway.
have a nice day, x
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 15:55:08 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: x
Subject: comment on comments
Message:
Dear X
I have attended the Satellite broadcast (and i also saw the video) and i can testify that he did not say what you are 'assuming' he said.
therefore, why do you want SHP to comment on this...this is a made up quote that has nothing to do with reality.
of course, you are free to believe everything that is said on this forum...but don't ask people to take a stand on something that did not happen...
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:04:14 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: comment on comments
Message:
I'd recommend ear floss if not brain floss. As usual Orlando you've completely got the wrong end of the stick. Put me right if you can show otherwise, and I'm sure in your usual robotic fashion you'll try, but NO-ONE said this statement was made either at the satellite event or on the video, it was received afterwards.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:42:12 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: floss
Message:
Dear Hamzen,
this is a DIRECT quote from x's post:

'Gail asked you what you thought of Maharajis latest statement, something to the effect that he has fulfilled his fathers mission to bring peace to the world, and now he's going to do what he wants(as if he doesn't already). The obvious implication being that he considers his world satellite event to be the equivalent to,'bringing peace to the world'. '

MAHARAJI HAS NOT MADE THIS STATEMENT. NOw is this clear enough for you???
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:22:32 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: HE MADE IT insidiously
Message:
Please read the recent 'connect' brochure, and remember the few things he proudly said about him having fulfilled his father's wish! read the editorial of the brochure!

Maybe he didn't pronounce it exactly, but that's what every premie deduced from what he recently said, and from what can be read in the brochure.

and that's what I've understood from the 'connect' brochure.

Now you can argue that's what supposed to happen during Phase II,
typical of the BM when he says something and it's opposite.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:41:26 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: in your own mind
Message:
JM
'but that's what every premie deduced from what he recently said, and from what can be read in the brochure.'

how do you know what 'every premie deduced'? i sure did not...

you are so way off base , it isn't even funny...
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Oh, yes he did
Message:
Orlando:

It's my recollection that Brian received a copy of the document with that statement, and other ex-premies received it as well. It was apparently mailed out to people as some sort of fundraising request. There is an entire thread in the archives in which this was discussed. Although the content is open to various interpretations, the clear implication was that Maharaji had now 'brought knowledge to the world' as he was directed to do by his father, and now he was moving on to Phase II in which he iss going to do what he wants, whatever that is. Perhaps you could check the archives or ask Brian to specifically say what that mailing said.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 16:52:42 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: no sir
Message:
JW,
i do not need to 'check the archives' dear, i heard him in person...YOU check the archives if you want to, and interpret whatever anybody says in whichever way you want...
if you want to know the truth about what he said, get the transcript or the video...
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:29:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Are you Stupid?
Message:
God, you are a dim bulb. For the nineteenth time, IT WASN'T IN THE SATELLITE FEED OF THE VIDEO. God it? Geez.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:24:13 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Are you Stupid?
Message:
God, you are a dim bulb

So glad you don't call people names, liar.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:15:29 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: jackass...
Message:
it was not in ANY EVENT, you jackass...he just did not say this...
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:31:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: original post re announcement
Message:
Here's the original post re Maharaji fufilling his commitment to his father & doing what he wants to do. It was made by Paul, an ex-premie who posts here occasionally & who I have corresponded with. He got a mailing from his community coordinator that read as follows:

Dear Kansas City area premies and aspirants:
For those of you who saw the recent satellite feed of Maharaji know of His announcement that He has now fulfilled His committment to His Master to spread Knowledge around the world, and that now He is going to do what He wants to do.'

The letter goes on to say that one of the things M is doing now is making more video tapes and that for $276 per month the community can have a subscription. To quote further:

'Of course, these funds go to support video showings in poorer communities around the world and not just to cover the cost of the videos.'


Then Gail asked if the post was real. Paul said that he didn't know if Maharaji had actually said these things in the broadcast, or whether the CC who sent out the mailing had taken it on himself to interpret the message. Paul further said that he didn't think this particular CC would say or do anything that wasn't officially sanctioned.

I'm interested to know if people in other communities got a similar letter.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:16:05 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: give up, Orlando
Message:
Ha Ha Ha, Orlando,
Who's a jackass now?
I know you'll try to say that we don't know for sure gmj said this, and that maybe the Kansas City CC just inferred this somehow, but think about it, the wording proves gmj said it.
'Know of HIS annoncement, that he... blah blah blah'
No CC would dare to put those words in bm's mouth. No way. Never.
HE SAID IT!!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:26:15 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: x
Subject: again..
Message:
this is the last time i write this: Maharaji has NOT said this. Katie is quoting a post of someone quoting someone who heard...this is total bullshit (sorry for not helping SHP with his PR efforts)
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:07:55 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: again..
Message:
'Maharaji has NOT said this.'
Okay, you really want to believe that he didn't say something thats been attributed to him by the community coordinator of a large city.
Just for arguments sake, suppose he did say it. Does it matter to you? Are you so unwilling to accept that he may have said this because the statement bothers you?
How do you plan to rationalize this statement when it's proven that he said it?
I think you've really painted yourself into a corner this time, Orlando.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:50:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: again..
Message:
Hi Orlando -
I admit I was very surprised to read Paul's post. I have no doubt that Paul actually received the letter and quoted it accurately, but I couldn't help but wonder about what the Kansas City area CC wrote. (Maybe we should try and find out if the guy still has his job.) In my experience, CC's pass on the message from higher in the EV organization and don't put their own spin on it - however, it is possible that this particular CC did. That's why I was interested in knowing if anyone else received a similar letter.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:59:06 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: myob....
Message:
Orlando,

I am a big boy...gonna be 50 this year...been around the block a few times, ya know? I don't need your defense, especially because it was ill-timed, ill-worded, inaccurate and unnecessary.

Stick to what Charananand said was the definition of a saint, if that's your goal: He said a saint is somebody who minds their own business.

I know you meant well (in your way of thinking), but Dante said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So speak for yourself, not for me.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:44:22 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: myob....yourself
Message:
hey big boy
i was not talking to you...i don't know where you got the idea i am trying to 'defend' you
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:13:24 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Open mouth, change foot...
Message:
Orlando,

You said:
i don't know where you got the idea i am trying to 'defend' you

I say:
I got the idea from your post, man. PAY ATTENTION! Check out your previous post, Orlando. Read your own writing, your own words. You used my initials to make a point which was bogus and made no sense to me, about when Maharaji supposedly said or didn't say something, and you went off about it, thinking somebody said it was from the satellite program. Please leave my name out of your posts, OK? Don't refer to me for your personal trip, which is what it is coming off like. I didn't appreciate seeing my initials 'SHP' in your post. That's the message. You got it now?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:23:41 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Orlando, wake up...
Message:
Orlando,

Here is why I asked you to mind your own business, your own previous post to x. So pay attention, man. You are embarrassing yourself. It's bad enough you come here as a premie to a very unsympathetic crowd, you further complicate matters by talking like a dumbass, no offense. That doesn't exactly create rapport or understanding on any level. Take mental responsibility, don't just come here with your emotions, there is enough of that flying aorund here already. Chill out and read your own words below. Then you will understand why I told you to back off from me. Have some dignity, for God's sake.

Orlando's comment on comments:
Dear X
I have attended the Satellite broadcast (and i also saw the video) and i can testify that he did not say what you are 'assuming' he said. therefore, why do you want SHP to comment on this...this is a made up quote that has nothing to do with reality. of course, you are free to believe everything that is said on this forum...but don't ask people to take a stand on something that did not happen...
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:42:22 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Message:
I love it! Please read my phase II post.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:19:28 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp, get lost..
Message:
so if i name HITLER in my posts, it means that i defend him???

sorry if i spoil your Public Relations efforts on this site...

chill out and myob
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:22:14 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: shp, get lost..
Message:
Been there, done it.

Orlando, whatever good you think you might be doing here, think again. You are getting panned across the board, from premies and ex-premies alike. Have a little humility, take a little kava kava, man, (it's legal) and accept the fact that God works through people, too, just like all the people here. And you are being sent a very strong message that you are coming off like a picnic
that is short a few sandwiches. Have hope, the Lord chastens who he loves. The Lord must love you alot, because you are getting information from all sides here to reconsider your vibe and make some adjustments. It's like having a piece of green stuff stuck in your teeth, or having a bad smell...you are usually the last one to know. And only somebody who gives a shit about you will get in your face and say something about it. Remember, pride goes before a fall. And for a premie, you sure sound angry. Dontcha know that shit will rob you of eternal life?

And I'm not here on a PR mission. I'm here as a free human being.
Let that sink in before you open your mouth to me again.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:15:08 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x, think positive
Message:
x,

I did answer Gail: I said it boggled me. What do you want from me?

I also mentioned that I heard it here, not anywhere else. What is wrong with that? I did not accuse anyone on this site of making anything up, but I did not assume that the quote was fully accurate or complete, since I did not get it from the source. That is just a good way of being more certain of the facts, whatever the subject and whoever the players. I never thought anyone here made anything up about Maharaji (except for the parodies and jokes). I would not have hung around for that.

As for Jesus' 'iffy' existence as per you, that's your business. I don't consider my involvement with Jesus or the historical refernces to him as an 'obsession', as you described it. I don't think it's 'OK' for anyone to be an 'asshole' to anyone else.
It is not 'lame' as you put it, to not jump to conclusions.
Discretion is the better part of valor.

You have a nice day too.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 20:10:15 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: x, think positive
Message:
I think it's extremely naiive to assume the bible is true
factually, since frankly it corresponds to what we now might call PR. This doesn't mean that it's all false, only that's its construction cannot be considered to be primarily based around truth. There are considerable doubts about the reality of the Magdalene story, for example.

With that in mind, trying to use the image presented and promoted in the Bible, of a heretical, impoverished, travelling speaker in some way to compare with a rich fatcat like M is beyond me.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:09:01 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to Runamok
Message:
Runamok,

Run: I think it's extremely naiive to assume the bible is true
factually, since frankly it corresponds to what we now might call PR.
SHP: I think it's extremely naiive of you to presume that you have a grasp of my understanding or lack thereof, of the Bible. I believe that you can get enlightened with just reading and understanding the red letters (his words, admittedly messed with by kings and scribes down through history, but still potent)and enough faith.

Run: This doesn't mean that it's all false, only that's its construction cannot be considered to be primarily based around truth. There are considerable doubts about the reality of the Magdalene story, for example.
SHP: I'm from Missouri, remember? Show me, if you really want to get into a discussion about the Bible. But that's not my objective.

Run: With that in mind, trying to use the image presented and promoted in the Bible, of a heretical, impoverished, travelling speaker in some way to compare with a rich fatcat like M is beyond me.
SHP: Jesus was neither heretical nor impoverished, and was not portrayed as such in the Bible. He was the right-on hero of the story, remember? The only people who considered him a heretic were corrupt, ignorant or scared of the dominant social order. And he had plenty of everything he needed for his ministry, provided by his own fruits of his own previous labor and the generous loving donations of his disciples, some of whom were affluent. The only comparison to Maharaji would be the fact
that many folks believe both have the power and grace to reveal the Knowledge of God within to people, that's where the comparison ends.

You were saying....?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:32:51 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: reply to Runamok
Message:
I was saying this to someone else so a 'response to me' rings more like an interruption. However, you obviously want to comment on what I said so I'll respond.

I stand by what I said. It's wishful thinking to hold so much stock in the narrative of the Bible, put together as a political document. There is no proof to its objectivity except the hype associated with it. If you say you appreciate its spirit more than its letter, I can understand that, but you cross that line significantly.

The biggest similarity between M and early Christianity is the blatant public relations job at work. Your belief in M's knowlege as common to both is your idiocy, and your business. But hanging that shit out to dry around here deserves no respect (and again, I'm really not out to flame you, but I will).

By the way, you're still managing to confuse people with your unusual use of quotation. I would hate people to think that I said what you are saying but you manage to leave that impression over and over. Isn't it standard to use a colon after someone's name in correspondence to them?

You believe what you want to believe, but don't stick it in my face all flaming in the name of peace unless you really want to be called a fool by me. Like I've said to you, I find it offensive to be preached to on this forum, and more so by a religious dogmatist than by agnostics.

There are several forums more suitable for people still hanging with the guru's vomitous belief structure.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:40:49 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to Runamok
Message:
My mistake- This thread and the next one (actually last one) with Dennis are running together in my mind.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:42:16 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to Runamok
Message:
Sorry I left out the colon. It was not intentional, but it's hard to see those little suckers after you've been staring at the screen for awhile.

As for the 'preaching' as you called it, that's not what I was doing. People that think like you are thinking right now just call it preaching whenever certain personalities and historical events come into a conversation...it's like a catch-all diversion from dealing with or even considering something historical in a non-religious context. But if I am a devotee of such a person or belief, then I need to respect your wishes and not approach you in a way that pisses you off. If there is no way we can approach each other peacefully, then ciao baby. Simple formula.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:10:11 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: I'm trying
Message:
SHP.
Your entire quote was, 'If this statement was actually made by Maharaji, it boggles me.' But, I won't quibble. I think you believe he said this and I think it bothers you, as it probably should. To equate his earlier claims to bring world peace with his satellite event is just a totally unacceptable downsizing of expectations for anyone with any integrity.
Listen, SHP, I like you a lot more than the other premies who post here. I actually wind up talking to you more than anyone else here for some reason. Maybe it's that I find your enthusiasm for Jesus and spirituality kind of sweet. In a way, sometimes, I wish I believed in something illogical and far out, too. It's funny really, because my experience with Maharaji is what killed all that for me and made me the cynical atheist that I am.
I must have bad karma, or maybe it's just another lila or something.
JSCA, x
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:27:26 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: x
Subject: reply to x
Message:
x,

x: Your entire quote was, 'If this statement was actually made by Maharaji, it boggles me.' But, I won't quibble. I think you believe he said this and I think it bothers you, as it probably should.

SHP: I want documentation of that alleged quote if you can provide it please.

x: To equate his earlier claims to bring world peace with his satellite event is just a totally unacceptable downsizing of
expectations for anyone with any integrity.

SHP: That was my initial gut reaction, too. But I want proof of the actual in-context complete quote before I commit to any position about this. That is just a good common sense way of doing things, from where I sit. It's good journalism, thinking, lawyering, contracting, conversation, etc, to substantiate the facts before drawing conclusions. But sometimes you gotta jump with only the net of faith, and that's what causes alot of people problems. With actual real recorded things like quotes, we can use them to discern.

x: Listen, SHP, I like you a lot more than the other premies who post here. I actually wind up talking to you more than anyone else here for some reason. Maybe it's that I find your enthusiasm for Jesus and spirituality kind of sweet. In a way, sometimes, I wish I believed in something illogical and far out, too. It's funny really, because my experience with Maharaji is what killed all that for me and made me the cynical atheist that I am.

SHP: I'd like to hear your personal feedback about your experience with Maharaji that 'killed all that' for you, and made you the 'cynical atheist' that you are. If you want to talk privately, post your e-mail. Just think about this for starters:
in order for imposters to exist, the genuine article must also exist.

x: I must have bad karma, or maybe it's just another lila or something.
SHP: Come on, x. You are made out of stronger stuff than all that.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:25:07 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Re: Phase II
Message:
Dear Sandy:

The impression I got a couple of weeks ago was that someone named Larry got a mailing requesting automatic withdrawal from bank accounts. In this mailing it also said that MJ had now realized his father's dream of spreading K worldwide, etc. . .

Since you are still a premie in good standing, why don't you try to get this mailing yourself. Is there anyone else in the premie community you can contact. They may not have sent it to you because you put your full name on this site. Also, don't be surprised if EV now considers you to be a security risk.

It would be best if you got hold of this document. Then, you could repost it for us. That way, even the staunch premies would have to listen, since you probably have some credibility with them. Please make the calls. I would, but you know how they feel about me. No open door policy for Gail C. MacDougall!!! I've lost my premiedumb card.

BTW, why do you think I was barred at the door. I am a very conservative person (high school teacher). I have never made a scene at a video event or program with MJ. The meat of the satellite event was out on the net within hours. What sort of a risk do I represent? What are they trying to hide? What did happen to the open door policy?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 22:56:02 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Re: Phase II
Message:
Gail:

I am not going to request anything to be sent to me. I will ask around. I don't understand why you were locked out. I was posting here for awhile and had given my name here in good faith before the satellite program and nobody prevented me from entering. I don't know what else could be involved in your case.
Is there any other reason you might be getting shunned besides posting here? Maybe it was something you said....!?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:45:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Re: Phase II
Message:
Ya, probably. I said he was a fraud. However, EV did send me the invitation. They still send me those silly VISIONS catalogues with the kaleidiscopes, rock glasses with swans for booze, playing cards, etc., for sale. MJ never said that people who didn't believe in him couldn't attend. It would be a small feat for the LORD to turn me around, wouldn't it?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 02:41:18 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Re: Phase II
Message:
Hi Gail,
I just thought of something funny. I'll bet you're not 'barred' from ordering the overpriced junk in the catalogues they're still sending you. I'll bet they're not worried about your money being a security risk! What do you think?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:00:32 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Re: Phase II
Message:
You're right. I'm sure I could order from the catalogues.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:29:04 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Jesus = Maharaji?
Message:
Sandy,

Don't you think you're stretching it a bit comparing Maharaji to Jesus saving the life of Mary Magdelene? When did fatso ever do anything so noble? When did he ever do anything noble at all? As for Maharaji rocking the boat, when did he ever do such a thing in defiance of authority? When he married Marolyn and pissed off his mother? Big deal. When he decided that he would no longer tolerate being called God after years of encouraging that belief? When did Maharaji ever show signs of being a spiritual revolutionary? When he came to America in a business suit? When?

Q: How long can you run on belief alone?
A: Until the truth becomes known.


I say until reason pokes so many holes in that belief that it no longer makes sense to continue it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:17:31 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: WHAT WHAT ??
Message:
I thought donations couldn't be asked for, according to law!

Are you allowed to send that kind of mail to people in the US, and then say that whatever they give is donation?

And if these donations are not donations anymore, that means the BM and EV should pay taxes!

IRS might be interested by this.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:33:51 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: WHAT WHAT ??
Message:
$HP: Thanks for the correction.

Jean-Michel: You have a good point. EV is registared in the U.S. as a 501(c)3 , a non-profit religous organization. That does not mean they can't make a profit, it just means all the money they gather has to go back into the org. M can buy a car, or a plane for that matter, with donated money and tell the IRS that what he purchased was for use in his business. 501(c)3's are a scam in the U.S. The legality of them soliciting money, or how they can solict is unclear to me. I just know I'm not giving anything.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:37:57 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: DMarcelli@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
Hi! As an ex-premie, I still love 'high'. The best place I've ever been is in a very long deep meditation. But then we must come out into the world, and the dysfunctions that happen there can create very 'low' experiences. I've found a solution to this in the Bible, where perfect experience and perfect function are both described. But in the Christian communities I don't find many people who experience the 'high' and most probably don't even know that it exists...including the clergy. But, having been an engineer, I do agree that the Bible does describe perfect function and have thoroughly scrutinized and tested that conlusion. Therefore I am now absolutely sure about it. Lack of knowing this 'function' (especially in male/female relationships) is what I feel caused the breakup of the premie community. It would be so nice to find people who simultaneously understood 'high' (inner) and 'function' (outer). I know that the premie mode was to keep ourself high through meditation, but I think that approach didn't last because it wasn't natural. God did make us with a mind. Correctly using it is the challenge. Meditation, like drugs, just showed us that 'high' does exist and how beautiful it is. I'd like to see how others relate to what I'm saying here and if they've experienced the same dilemma and way of looking at it.

Thank you,

Dennis
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 03:43:02 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
Dennis I don't think the dilemma is the external/internal dynamic. While I can relate to the dichotomy of being (high) and doing (function) and believe that one proceeds from the other. Your query is akin to the chicken and egg connection, ie. does being support doing or does doing support being; a purely intellectual discussuion. But to bring it to a more practical level, just enjoy what you're doing. Get high off of doing, sort of Zen-like. My problem is when someone else, mainly maharaji, wants to claim responsibility for my high. When he says this is 'HIS KNOWLEDGE' I say no its not. I refuse to let anyone own me, at least consciously, or be my master. I believe in self-mastery not mastery over others, and self-mastery is how you solve the 'dilemma'. I went to a 'New Age' type festival recently at Pacific Grove, California. Mountains, beach, water. A very beautiful setting. A few thousand people were there and the bliss (high) was incredible. No master, just a bunch of loving people sharing their heart. It was a very high function. So as and ex-premie I'm putting myself in situations to have those 'high functions' as much as possible. Inspite of what www.enjoyinglife might tell you, there is lots of high fulfillment and bliss without maharaji.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:59:50 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
Sam, Hi and thanks for the response. There's a lot of good thought in what you've said. Actually I never did make that big of a deal about GMJ, even when I was a premie. I just couldn't conjure up the worship that others were seeming to experience. To me, the experience of knowledge and how I knew that it was from God within was my main focus, as well as the wisdom that comes with it. But I did feel thankful to DLM for creating and perpetuating the structure that allowed me to learn about knowledge and S, S & M. I especially realize how valuable it was now that it's gone. So whoever is keeping those things in place does deserve some support...like the people who organized the festival you went to. But your points are well-taken. Maybe I just need to do a little more exploring. BTW, do you have any kids...and do they go to public school? This is one place that the pressures and offness of the world can hit home and be very un-knowledge-experience like. In that sense, the doings around us do have an impact on being..and a negative one at that. I think that that also has had a lot to do with the decline in knowledge-experience in the world (along with the change in the financial structure in this country).
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:05:06 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
It's good you didnt get to involved.
Sounds like you got some good reviews on your book.
Congradulations. Must be hard to write a book
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:33:20 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
Writing the book was my way of preserving the beauty of what I found in knowledge and in the Bible, and a hedge to not get caught up in 'the world'. And I've experienced a lot of pressures to do just that. So it would have been harder to not write the book. I guess with the book I'm just trying to do what I can to help preserve what I've found in life to be the most beautiful and inspiring thing, which I see greatly missing these days (especially in the mainstream). Do you remember that line in the song 'San Francisco' that said 'people in motion'? That was an exciting time when lots of people were really going for the truth. DLM was at the tail end of it, before 'disco' and 'yuppyness' and other unnatural and unloving forms took over. Well I just don't see too many people in motion anymore. So I guess through my book, media appearances and speaking (and who knows what else) I've devoted my life to trying to see if there are any people left who want to be in motion.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:57:19 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-premie dilemma
Message:
'before 'disco' and 'yuppyness' and other unnatural and unloving forms took over.'

I too felt this way for a long time but I completely disagree with this now. Disco was one of the roots for people coming to terms with their bodies, house music came from this root and has been the catalyst for amazing emancipatory activity here in the uk at least, but unlike us bunch of bohos from the 60's most people have stayed grounded, held their lives together and see through spiritual bullshit while still connecting in a way I could only have dreamed of back then. Far fewer casualties this time around as well.
The cultural effects of punk have helped this explosion of diy culture as well.
Be careful, you're sounding a little like our parents in the 60's, with less justification.
No accident gurus are so unfashionable now.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:02:16 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
Since murphys law is the next closest thing to omnipresence,
as it seems no one escapes problems.
And since problems come in ways that make you think murphy
is also damn near omnicient,
And human nature seems insurmountable.
Actually, I'm glad about that, if it was something you could
completely defeat and 'rise above' permanently 'attaining
higher conciousness', then we would all be burdened with
that and we would have enlightened ones, god realized ones
telling us we also had to recognise that we were the 'it'
and we just had to recognise that.

Robbing us of our chance to get off easy by just assuming
that if I love life or at least try, I am covering the
bases well.

Lets say feeling your breath was the big deal.
The word.
whatever.
If there is an self concious origional intelligence, god,
it has made sure that it, the breath feeling action,
stays out of focus on purpose.
All the holy books around have at least some mention of
some word but by today all you have is mantras or understandings
that -the word- is say for example, 'the bible' or 'jehova'
or the tetragrammon or 'krishna' or namaste or sat nam
or jesus or you name it.

But look at those that tried to do it (feel the breath)
that got bamboozeled by prem rawat.
HE and his family went mad.
WE were not coming to some group recognition of -gee, this
is doable and worth it.

Have you seen anything inside that tops a tree?
I think not. and if you have, if a kid cant do
this and is so joyous, maybe the approach to this life is the key
like it is to a kid.

I have seen people marvel at bands, drugs, self proclaimed
teachers, weeping statues, mahraji in a crown, every scientific
thing, someone guessing the answer on the wheel of fortune,
the sale at Marshalls, I think we are supposed to be all
screwed up and that is the fun of the free will option.

It makes for lots more suffering, suicides, religions, wars
and what not, but that is the design!
How possible are we going to arrive at a point where
everyone will join the same train and stick with the same
perspective?

We seem to be like opposite ends of the magnet to one another.
Maybe that is not out of sinc with the god?
Maybe that origional intelligence likes a creative mess!
And maybe it loves a good fight. Although WE dont. Except
when we are in the mood.
Lots of reasons to do battle courtesy of our human nature!
We are so vulnerable!

Bobby has been trying to meditate his way into the divine realms
for some years and he is as stuck as the next guy period.
Maybe you are living alone or with the same astrological
types or whatever but I for sure live and work and know some
real hot running humans. Some are religious too.
I have given up as far as looking to see others being
anything but what they are now and given up having
a hope of some sea change in human behaviour on a large
scale. We seem always in flux.
I wouldnt mind hearing about a different view of things from
you. You did request some form of discharge, here is mine.
Ignore me, it's late, I'm nuts of course.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:07:25 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
I mean the -same- end of the magnet to each other.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:19:29 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
Bill, Hi! Lots of good stuff in what you said. Especially when you touched on the free will idea. I think that is the purpose of this planet and life...to tame our own free will so that we're prepared for a better existence. So the chaos that you speak of is really the collective creation of the human race...which leaves us to recognize that it would be real nice to have a perfect God to be in charge. Not the flawed gods on this planet, e.g. as many here have pointed out about GMJ, but a really perfect God. In all my studying and experiencing and working out the logic, I find that perfect God behind the authoring of the Bible. In fact, that's the only place that I found perfection. So I go with that, wrote a book to prove it, and now use that book as my calling card into the world to see if anyone else really cares about this, and to see who sees what. But God is not a bully and wants us to choose Him out of our own free will and out of love. Because bottom line, the next existence would be no better than this one if its foundational essence -- its 'breath' -- wasn't 'love', and only love.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:48:24 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
You know that part of the bible where some guy who was
the chief priest of the jews was asked by the people to
voluntarily step aside and let the people have a king?

I think they asked him because he was nuts.
He was claiming to speak as god and his thoughts were god ect.
He has a moment when he relinquishes (after much fussing and
finger pointing at those that want him to let them have a
king. (or ANYBODY but him).
He apponts saul and then in his jealosy and ego/delusion
claims that saul is no longer the one because saul performed
some ceremony that this preist wanted to do himself.
He looks though some family that had many sons and picks
the cute innocent 19 yr old david.
David is hardly some divine or holy guy it turns out and the
most you can say about him was he felt bad at moments
for some or all of his bad behaviour.
The preist of the time islooked at as the voice of god
and is quoted by christians today AS words spoken by god.
When he said 'david is a guy after my own heart'
The only way I hear that told is 'GOD said 'he is a
man after my own heart''.
Really, the high preist was a nut case and that is why the people
wanted a king. Give us a sane man to rule us.

Why should I grant a large blanket of divinity over all
the parts of the book when only SOME of those words were
from Jesus/Yeshua.
And after reviewing HIS words, he seemed to nutshell it
with the Love reccomendation.

I know a lot of christians and they specialize in parts of
the bible and I sometimes think that other parts are a
distraction in the way of putting the love 'commandment'
to actual day by day use.
Trying to do that seems to be enough of a challenge and
adventure to me.

But, having said that, I know, people are in every corner of
every possible thing to be involved with in life.
So, situation normal.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 03:01:48 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
How long did it take you to write yourbook?
Do refer to the breath as spirit?
Tough to maintain a consistant view on life it seems.
We seem built to be regularly haveing our slates cleaned
hour by hour. What is your view on free will in a few more words?
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 15:16:13 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
How long did it take you to write yourbook?

The actual writing, about a year...the research, about 28 years.

Do refer to the breath as spirit?

No. I see that as just being a meditation technique that gets us to stop our mind long enough so that we can really see and feel what's going on inside without the mind's constant evaluation, impulsive reaction and judgment. And being that emotions react to the mind, I like and respected what I experienced in meditation much more than the emotional experience that my mind was creating for me. And I found that the best of what I experienced and saw in meditation was right in tune with the Bible.

Tough to maintain a consistant view on life it seems.
We seem built to be regularly haveing our slates cleaned
hour by hour.


That's true, and good. Although for 17 years now I've also taken a 'deductive reasoning' approach. That is, I've accepted the Bible as truth (after much scrutinizing both of it and life), and then tried its precepts on for size by living them as if they were truth. This has proven to be the best approach to life I've found. It's worked very well....contrary to the messes that worshipping my compulsion would have gotten me into. But I haven't shut my mind off during the process. Just the opposite is true. But now I scrutinize mostly after the fact, whereas before I would speculatively try anything before the fact. In a recent movie I saw, this priest was talking to a nun and said that he wanted to go off and live a contemplative life in a monastery up in the hills. She said to him (nicely) that that was the selfish approach. If he really wanted a life of serving God then he would stay in the village and do the ministerial work that was badly needed there. So as ecstatic as the experiences were in meditation, my natural inclination is to not meditate anymore, but rather: to work on my mind and in the world (although I rarely lose my focus on that place in my heart that meditation revealed...my connection to God).

What is your view on free will in a few more words?

I think that God has given us free rein (to a degree) so that we can be free to prove that we in our free will will make a horrible mess of things (humanity could have done the opposite). The conclusion of this is that if we want a utopic existence, we do NEED for a perfect being to be in charge who has a perfect plan and set of rules that will keep peace and eliminate harm. So I see this planet as a place where we learn things that will eventually lead to us being able to be good (and not harm-causing) citizens in a higher existence after this life. And He put us on a tiny spinning ball in the middle of a humungous universe so that our evil and confusion can pollute only a dot.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:34:43 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
You said so much but let me respond to just your last
part right now.

You know, Jesus/Yehesua(actually what his mom called him)
said 'the devil knows not for whom he works'

Why would you view it as 'OUR evil and confusion'?
Since the place came with human nature and the inborn tendencies
that we have, why think we are supposed to be all perfect
when it could be that even given your other views, the
deal here could be that free will option combined with
the full spectrum of behavior possibililties we are so
vulnerable to are supposed to be here because it makes
for an interesting human story.
That the god is not all that hot on the idea of us getting
to any sort of unified condition any time too soon.

If there is a designer, why should we doubt the intention
that the conditions we are in are just perfect as they are
and the creative fun is in living without a hope in hell of
not making mistakes and actually getting beyond our
human nature very far.

I am not being very clear about this perhaps.
It's too late to try to restate it now.

By the way, feel free to chime in on the 'more thoughts'
thread up top.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 01:36:05 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: My post-birth dilemma
Message:
'the devil knows not for whom he works'

Why would you view it as 'OUR evil and confusion'?
Since the place came with human nature and the inborn tendencies
that we have, why think we are supposed to be all perfect
when it could be that even given your other views, the
deal here could be that free will option combined with
the full spectrum of behavior possibililties we are so
vulnerable to are supposed to be here because it makes
for an interesting human story.
That the god is not all that hot on the idea of us getting
to any sort of unified condition any time too soon.

If there is a designer, why should we doubt the intention
that the conditions we are in are just perfect as they are
and the creative fun is in living without a hope in hell of
not making mistakes and actually getting beyond our
human nature very far.


You've said a lot here, so I'll respond in phrases.
Yes, as part of the free will spectrum the Bible would have us include not just humans but also free will spirits such as satan, demons, and the rest of the strata of angels.
The 'inborn tendencies' that you speak of are really what is being worked out here. That is: it's not unreasonable for people to want things to go their way all of the time. It's just that it doesn't work if you simultaneously want to be totally relaxed and vulnerable to the superior pleasures of love and peace, with no selfish-motivated insensitive abuses to fear. That's why it does 'all need to be perfect', because even the harm from one abuse will put us on our guard and lessen our sensitivity to love.
The collective 'unified condition' will never happen. But the individual one should be our greatest concern, despite what is going on around us, because as time passes, people are continually dying and at that point a destination must be determined for their souls (the essential experiencer that was attached to their human body), irrespective of the collective human condition.

'living without a hope in hell'

An interesting choice of words.

By the way, feel free to chime in on the 'more thoughts'
thread up top.


Thanks. Will do.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:17:16 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: P.S. (Dennis)
Message:
P.S. What I understand about maharaji is that he wants unquestioning sheep for devotees. Remember those songs we used to sing, 'arti', etc. The weary and the weak, give your all to satguru, etc. Lot's of brain-washing. Maharaji does not want people who know how to find bliss for themselves. He devalues and discounts anyone who is having a beautiful experience on their own. He's only interested in people who are burnt out on the world and can't find their way, prying on the disenfranchised. I still believe in God, the vast and almighty one-that which nature has not formed, and experience the bliss within me. But rawat has nothing to do with it. Rawat's on an exploitive ego trip. There are lot's of blissed out loving people in this world, experiencing so-called 'knowledge' who have never seen or heard of Guru Maharaji aka Primpal Rawat.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:54:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Sam, very well said
Message:
I think what you said is very true, and very well stated. It's a good explanation as to why Big M was forever disdainful of 'the people of the world' and the fact that they look for happiness somewhere other than through him. So, he has to say that if you're happy, and aren't a devotee of his, you must be deluded. It's all such insidious bullshit.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:05:42 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: x
Subject: ...real people...real problems
Message:
X wrote
Blanco,
Hmmm, you're confused about a word 'kohooneeth' that isn't in the dictionary, and apparently by the context you found it in, it means guts. Maybe they meant to say cojones. Isn't cojones spanish for balls(courage)?


No confusion at all x
To have guts ...to be corageous...tener agallas
To have the cojones .....to have the courage...tener los cojones
Cojones is spanish for testicles or Balls
Guts is english for agallas
Balls...courage...determination...strength
Guts...courage....determination...strength
Whatever the context “kohoneeth” was used, its spelling was used to conceal the word cojones (a real and nasty word in spanish). I wanted to use the real word in English, then, Balls or Testicles are real but nasty words in English, therefore I used guts (a softer word), and in spite of guts and balls having a different face meaning the resulting expressions are semantically equivalent...

what I really meant was that the lack of testicles is most unfortunate specially when it comes to giving some real thoughts and action to real human beings’ problems....
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:00:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: balls & determination
Message:
Thank you, Blanco--SO TRUE!!! GUTS DETERMINATION BALLS--however you want to put it--is needed for life
What is the female equivilent of 'balls', cause we women sure have it
Thanks also for the Spanish lesson
(:
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:18:18 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yes, folks, it is, once again,
Message:
THE FULL MOON!!! ...which means I get to join in!

I read all the thread titles and by the time I crashed at the end, I had already passed out.

When I woke up, I wondered, What is M's ROI?

anyone know?
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 00:49:37 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: M's Return On Investment
Message:
is generated revenue less investment cost.

Several million a year less no investment cost (We came pretty cheap), times thirty years, is now probably in excess of 200 M, almost a quarter billion. Not bad for one man.

I figure a conservative estimate of 10,000 premies times a very conservative estimate of $100,000 (only 20K a year for 5 years) of money not generated, or money that we earned that went toward a 'cause' that is going nowhere, to be a billion+ dollars. Of course, many of us were around a bit longer than that, eh?
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