Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 37

From: Jan 30, 1999

To: Feb 14, 1999

Page: 1 Of: 5


ben there -:- some pain/some humor -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:19:48 (EST)
__Helen -:- some pain/some humor -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:35:20 (EST)
__peter howie -:- some pain/some humor -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 20:29:17 (EST)
____Gail -:- Courting Lady Clarity -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:37:09 (EST)
____Robyn -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:27:00 (EST)
__JW -:- some pain/some humor -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:46:44 (EST)
____david m -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 03:09:25 (EST)
______VP -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 09:41:38 (EST)
________david m -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:13:06 (EST)
______JW -:- Follow The Money -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:31:07 (EST)
________david m -:- Follow The Money -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:05:49 (EST)
____chr -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 22:27:11 (EST)
______JW -:- some pain/some humor -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 00:01:47 (EST)
________chr -:- some pain/some humor -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 01:15:53 (EST)
__________Helen -:- some pain/some humor -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 13:02:41 (EST)
__Mc -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 17:34:56 (EST)
____david m -:- some pain/some humor -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:16:35 (EST)

ex-ex -:- your comments/responses -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 06:43:36 (EST)
__Jethro -:- your comments/responses -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:37:04 (EST)
____Jethro -:- CORRECTION to above -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:43:51 (EST)
__Zac -:- your comments/responses -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:38:12 (EST)
____Helen -:- Great post, Zac -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:15:33 (EST)
____Diz -:- your comments/responses -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:41:31 (EST)
______Zac -:- Hi Diz -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:08:58 (EST)
________Diz -:- Hi Diz -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:38:37 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Hi Diz -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 18:28:48 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Here is my last message -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:46:24 (EST)
____Happy -:- food with too much salt -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:20:03 (EST)
__Richard -:- Time to grow... -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:57:23 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Time to grow... -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:57:42 (EST)
______Richard -:- Time to grow... -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:55:42 (EST)
____Sam -:- Time to grow... -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 15:49:32 (EST)
______Richard -:- I don't know how to say this.. -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:24:55 (EST)
________Sam -:- I don't know how to say this.. -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 10:57:16 (EST)
__________Richard -:- I hear you Sam -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 09:37:51 (EST)
__Jerry -:- your comments/responses -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:05:45 (EST)
__VP -:- Who is Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 15:17:50 (EST)
____Zac -:- Who is Guru Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 18:42:56 (EST)
____JW -:- Who is Maharaji? -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:19:29 (EST)
______VP -:- The power of the sarong -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:34:36 (EST)
________JW -:- The power of the sarong -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:47:50 (EST)
__________VP -:- Sometimes you feel like a nut -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 14:46:57 (EST)
__Saul -:- your comments/responses -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:36:25 (EST)
__lurker -:- Brain dead -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:40:55 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- your comments/responses -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:18:18 (EST)
____Zac -:- mickey? -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:18:26 (EST)

Zac -:- New Poll under construction -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:31:45 (EST)
__Roger Drek -:- Anyone know CGI? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 02:26:57 (EST)
__Roger Drek -:- New Poll under construction -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 04:10:55 (EST)
____peter howie -:- New Poll under construction -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 18:31:01 (EST)
______Roger Drek -:- New Poll under construction -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:32:09 (EST)
________Zac -:- Barney Tech Support needed(ot) -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:32:18 (EST)
__________Roger Drek -:- Barney Tech Support needed(ot) -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 12:32:50 (EST)
__Roger Drek -:- Want a list of Mahatmas, etc. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 04:12:56 (EST)
____Happy -:- Survey -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:07:11 (EST)
______VP -:- Survey -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:07:39 (EST)
________Roger Drek -:- Survey -:- Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 14:40:32 (EST)
____Zac -:- Want a list of Mahatmas, etc. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:28:22 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- 100s of Mahatmas! -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:57:31 (EST)
________Roger Drek -:- 100s of Mahatmas! -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:21:33 (EST)
______Roger Drek -:- Want a list of Mahatmas, etc. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:15:13 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Want a list of Mahatmas, etc. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:53:54 (EST)
__________Roger Drek -:- Want a list of Mahatmas, etc. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 13:03:22 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- Mahatmas' names -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 13:27:38 (EST)

Peter Howie -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:13:48 (EST)
__Helen -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:07:10 (EST)
__JW -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:37:43 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:24:30 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:24:01 (EST)
______JW -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:02:26 (EST)
________guroovy -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 11:38:43 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Reality, whose is it anyway -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:18:22 (EST)

Happy -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 05:26:56 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 06:02:03 (EST)
____Helen -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:29:08 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Euthanizing BM! -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:16:20 (EST)
________Helen -:- Euthanizing BM! -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:01:13 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Surrendering to someone -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:13:34 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Surrender Dorothy -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:19:41 (EST)
________NIL -:- STOP PLEASE! -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 20:49:58 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Get a grip -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 21:13:12 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- NIL IDIOT -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 04:04:52 (EST)
______Diz -:- Dreaming the way out -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:08:14 (EST)
____bill -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:24:38 (EST)
__Richard -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 06:43:07 (EST)
____Sir David -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:12:06 (EST)
______Richard -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:52:07 (EST)
________Happy -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:54:28 (EST)
______Helen -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:36:12 (EST)
____Happy -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:02:16 (EST)
____JW -:- Babies and Crap -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:11:45 (EST)
______Richard -:- Babies and Crap -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:12:27 (EST)
______You should look at -:- his old talks and see. -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:34:31 (EST)
____y? -:- Babies and bathwater.... -:- Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 03:21:28 (EST)
__Helen -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:18:00 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:35:45 (EST)
____Happy -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:35 (EST)
______Helen -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:03:36 (EST)
________Happy -:- 'grateful for that lesson' -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:51:39 (EST)
__________Helen -:- 'grateful for that lesson' -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:11:25 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:13:39 (EST)
________Happy -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:23:54 (EST)
__________Peter Howie -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 19:46:05 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:00:32 (EST)
______________Happy -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:17:15 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 16:58:46 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Baby in the bathwater? -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:07:35 (EST)
________Diz -:- Reclaiming the baby? -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 06:47:06 (EST)
__AJW -:- Throw the baby away too. -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:35:25 (EST)

Gail -:- Phase II -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:03:37 (EST)
__JW -:- Phase II -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:06:19 (EST)
____Gail -:- Phase II -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:38:23 (EST)
______JHB -:- Phase II -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:56:52 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Phase II -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 16:32:48 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- They're not! -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 03:11:28 (EST)
______Gail -:- They're not in India and -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:29:04 (EST)
________Gail -:- Oops, they are in India and -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:30:42 (EST)

IronBear-Jon -:- more thoughts -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:14:52 (EST)
__JW -:- more thoughts -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:52:48 (EST)
__JW -:- more thoughts -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:59:35 (EST)
____Helen -:- more thoughts -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:36:10 (EST)
______ham -:- more thoughts -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 19:39:23 (EST)
________Helen -:- deep thoughts (; -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:15:48 (EST)
________Jethro -:- more thoughts(OT) -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:48:41 (EST)
__cp -:- look here sir -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 04:31:38 (EST)
____Blanco -:- No Ironmonger, No -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 05:58:43 (EST)
______Jerry -:- No Ironmonger, No -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:23:13 (EST)
__Richard -:- unmitigated crap......... -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:41:50 (EST)
____peter -:- thanks richard -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 00:33:17 (EST)
__Brian -:- You touched some nerves -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:38:11 (EST)
__Jerry -:- more thoughts -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 11:21:08 (EST)
__Katie -:- Response to IronBear -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:42:05 (EST)
____Helen -:- Response to IronBear -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:24:21 (EST)
______x -:- Response to IronBear -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:54:32 (EST)
____Blanco -:- Response to IronBear -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:19:58 (EST)
______Katie -:- Thanks to Helen, x, Blanco -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:41:58 (EST)
____Dennis -:- Response to IronBear -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:41:43 (EST)
______Katie -:- Response to Dennis -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:01:04 (EST)
________Dennis -:- Response to Dennis -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 00:51:25 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- Response to Propaganda -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:10:19 (EST)
____________Dennis -:- Response to Propaganda -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:32:20 (EST)
______________Runamok -:- R2 R2 Propaganda -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:20:24 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Proselytizing -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:01:29 (EST)
__________Dennis -:- P.S. to Katie -:- Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:21:58 (EST)
____________bill -:- P.S. to Katie -:- Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:04:57 (EST)

JHB -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:54:48 (EST)
__John -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:22:47 (EST)
____JHB -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:38:42 (EST)
______John -:- You're too subtle for me -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:16:06 (EST)
________Sam -:- You're too subtle for me -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:02:09 (EST)
____Happy -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:49:51 (EST)
______JHB -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:12:48 (EST)
________Sam -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:22:56 (EST)
________ham -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 19:47:23 (EST)
__JW -:- A Consistent View of Maharaji -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:05:51 (EST)
____Zac -:- Which explains why -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:06:55 (EST)
______JW -:- Which explains why -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:20:30 (EST)
________Zac -:- EV Monitoring -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:17:12 (EST)
__________JHB -:- EV Monitoring -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:40:55 (EST)
____________Zac -:- Event Security -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:01:00 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Event Security -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:00:15 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Laughing and talking at videos -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:15:54 (EST)
__________________Zac -:- Laughing and talking at videos -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:10:06 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Laughing and talking at videos -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:56:19 (EST)
______________Selene -:- Event Security -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:24:53 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Be happy or else -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:09:19 (EST)
________________Zac -:- Event Security -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:15:50 (EST)
__________JW -:- EV Monitoring -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 00:17:45 (EST)
____________Zac -:- EV Monitoring -:- Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:01:02 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:19:48 (EST)
From: ben there
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
I have been reading the posts in this group for the last few days. Sometimes I find it amusing and sometimes it is painful. It is painful to recall how much of my creative and energetic youth (during my twenties) went into what I now can see was non-sense. It is humorous to see people still throwing around catch phrases such as “this experience,” “this love,” “bliss,” etc.

An interesting analogy I recently heard regarding debating the merits of any particular form of spirituality is that it is like
'two kamikazee pilots discussing the merits of crash helmets.'

If there is a heaven or any kind of an exhalted state of consciousness I am certain that somebody whose initials are GMJ is going to have one hell of a lot of answering to do before he ever gets to see it. The gatekeeper of Elysian Fields which I have seen doesn’t take kindly to his type.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:35:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ben there
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
we can only hope that if there is a God of justice He or She will be very pissed off when GM stands before Him or Her. Can you imagine GM trying to explain himself? I don't think God (if there is one)would take too kindly to GM using His or Her name to keep people in chains and rip them off.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 20:29:17 (EST)
From: peter howie
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: ben there
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
I share similar dilemmas.

I think in this type of discussion I have to look to my own integrity. And in this case I become aware that I was doing the best I could with what I had.

This isn't true in all cases of my life nor at all times with the BM. But generally I am really pleased that I made a real go of acting in tune with my professed beliefs and values at that time. Now some of those values and beliefs were in conflict and I managed my way through that.

So in the 'When I get to the pearly gates' scenario I really look to myself and the decisions I made, the information I had at the time (Imagine if this web was available in 1970's!)etc.

I still feel amused and pained though. Time is one dimensional, generally. My most vigorous efforts were made in my twenties. The efforts I make now are less vigorous but I hope more effective and meaningful than they were then.

Like the loss of a close friend or family member - the pain never really goes - only the edge is dulled. I 'lost' some precious years and that will always hurt a bit. The years I am having now are rich beyond any I had with the BM. I revel to see how how there are experiences beyond 'bliss', such as intimacy, challenge, companionship, forgiveness, sacrifice, compassion, freedom, friendship, love, exhiliration, relief, happiness, community, creativity, spontaneity, clarity and others. The revelling is because my focus during the BM years was so narrow. My world or the world I seem to live in is doing well by me. Or am I doing well by the world I am living in. Both I think.

Thanks

Peter Howie
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:37:09 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: peter howie
Subject: Courting Lady Clarity
Message:
Yes, MJ, we finally understood what you meant by that. With clarity we see what a fraud you are. I doubt you'll have to face someone at the pearly gates, but you conscience has been bugging you for a long time. Have another cognac to dull the pain of being a scheister. You've driven enough of your devotees to it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:27:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: peter howie
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Dear Peter,
Well thanks again for another wonderful post. I am feeling sentimental this morning, what moon phase are we in?, and I really enjoyed the list of great things that can be experienced once you remove the single minded focus of BM's world. I have had a recent experience that relates to this difference and it was shocking and sad to see that what was viewed as focused devotion really cut off the joys and variety we have all around us to be gratelful for.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:46:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ben there
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
. It is painful to recall how much of my creative and energetic youth (during my twenties) went into what I now can see was non-sense.

Hi ben, this is also my deepest regret, you said it just like I would. My other major regret is the pain I caused my family and other people I loved. I guess they are about even on the regret scale.

I think it's a big step just to recognize that you have those regrets, acknowledge them, maybe even embrace them, and see them as part of what makes you what you are today. I mean for the majority of the time I'm alive I don't actually feel regret, and even when I think about it now, all these years later, it isn't nearly so painful. It still does motivate me to anger however, which I always try to channel into some kind of action or another.

And it really is helpful to have others to commiserate with. Regret is so much more difficult if you have to deal with it all alone. That's what's great about this site.

And I think it's important to realize that for the most part we did what we thought was right -- we did what we believed in and we did what we were told was for the ultimate good. In retrospect is really was nonsense, as you say, but at the time we didn't know that.

I do believe that if there is a hell, there is a special place there for spiritual decievers like Maharaji. Maybe Maharaji will room with Sung Myung Moon and Jim Jones.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 03:09:25 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Hey JW..I wrote this big long note to Peter..and the Freak en Computer died...but what you said in essence is what i really wanted to say... i gave tens of thousands of dollars to DLM ..I could of taken over my Dads Buss..Hey Maybe The big M screwed up there..but it all flew by with the wind..and now i see what a operation it really was...Richard Royal here in Detroit always said ther are thing about Guru M we would never undrstand...well Malibu..Divine residences...Rolex...Rolls Royce..Many more Materiel things....WOW Is that not a Complete contradiction..of all the beliefs of DLM..Hey Man the whole trip boils down to hard cash..Let M come up with the records for 27 Years ....We would totally be astounded....Needless to say about peace on earth..Off topic did you know Kurt Flesch when you were in Miami....peace...david m
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 09:41:38 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
david,

I feel very badly that you (and others) gave so much money to Maharaji. It saddens me to hear that many of the people who gave/give money could/can scarcly afford to give.

That was certainly the situation with the premies I knew. They had no home, no car. Their kids didn't have any decent clothing, yet every cent they got went into getting to festivals so they could see Maharaji. It was always so 'beautiful' and 'by his grace' that they managed to scrape together the cash and transportation to go to these festivals.

Excellent point you made about things boiling down to cash. All anyone has to do is take a look at the fancy, glossy, full color catalog EV puts out. It's nicer quality than L.L.Bean, for crying out loud.

Hope you are able to find some peace these days, friend.
VP
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:13:06 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Hey VP...i think you said it all..the whole trip had a great start because thats what we all worked for.....PEACE...Then the Mula took over...and sure all the premies have fun at these events ..more people more cash.....im sorry to be stuck on that aspect. But really what else is there,,,,and THANK YOU for the kind words ..as you can see from my posts im up pretty late...for me these are very hard times but all of you friends make it much easier...peace...david m
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:31:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Follow The Money
Message:
Yes, the money is also a regret, but to tell you the truth, that isn't such a major concern for me. Yeah, if you added up the money I wasted on Maharaji, it would be a tidy sum, but you can get more money, you can make more money, but you can't replace years of your life pursuing nonsense, and you can't undo the hurt you caused other people. You just have to accept and live with that. And you also can't completely wipe out that feeling of having been ripped off on such a deep, spiritual level.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:05:49 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Follow The Money
Message:
Hey JW...
I completely agree...those were the tender shall i say years...for me 19-32..but i managed to do alot of other things as well ...so i guess it really was not so one sided....i did have some escape...but to tell you the truth there is something still inside of me that want to know what he really thinks he is doing...to me seem like the same old shit in Lambs clothing...i guess thats why i wanted to be part of the Forum...just doing my part for Peace....later Jw....david m
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 22:27:11 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Thats very much my experience too, JW. I also regret bringing people to M. During 1976 I went back to complete a degree(thank god for 76) and told a young 19 year old girl all about M and K.She was innocent and full of life. By the time she received K it was 77 and the devotion trip was in full swing . I watched her slowly lose the buoyancy and life she had.Even at the time I felt strange about it, but I pushed it aside. I found out later that she had been in love with me and I hadnt even noticed-I had about as much sensitivity as a wooden log at the time.
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 00:01:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Good point. I got my brother and his wife involved, and they actually broke up for awhile so my brother could be more 'devoted in service.' (Cringe) But they were a lot smarter than me and recognized the nonsense and split the cult about 1979 and got back together. It was a very difficult few years, especially for my sister-in-law and to some extent I was responsible.
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 01:15:53 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Fortunately, I've also helped a few people to find their way out of the cult, so hopefully that balances the scales a little.The other aspect I regret is the dishonesty-not just the obvious things like lying to employers when going to festivals,but the more subtle dishonesty inherent in the denial of so many facets of myself.As I've said before,bending the truth seems to also be a fairly standard procedure around M-but then the perfect master is beyond such petty human trivialities such as ethics and morality.
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 13:02:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr/JW
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Yup ethics and morality are such pesky details where the human soul is involved (;

Jw, despite the pain I know is behind it, I love your 'cringe' in parenthesis--it says it all.

chr--did you see one of the latest entries in the Red Nighty Chronicles deals with Ophelia lusting after a hard core premie who is totally oblivious to her advances. The 'wooden log' level of sensitivity was not limited to you, we all have been there--although I had to crack up at that log description.

The humor--laughing at ourselves-- along with the regrets about stupid things we did is what makes us human thank God
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 17:34:56 (EST)
From: Mc
Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com
To: ben there
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
ben:

I just wanted to say this thread you started was one of the most poignant I've read on this site. I've been reading here for months and it's the simple, yet eloquent to the point things everyone is stating in this thread that always brings me back. The years given, the time lost, the pain caused were the worst of my losses also. I'm still rebuilding myself so to speak but I've learned to allow myself the pleasure of enjoying the things I like - a concept that at one time 'felt' so selfish.

Thanks everyone at Ex-premie.org.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 19:16:35 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Mc
Subject: some pain/some humor
Message:
Hey Mc...greatly stated...hang in there were all.starting to scratch the surface...peace davd m
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 06:43:36 (EST)
From: ex-ex
Email: ex-ex@usa.net
To: Jethro
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
I am starting a new thread at the top because maybe our little discussion was about to scroll off of the page...now have to depend on my memory what you said...

One question you asked was, 'Who do you think Maharaji is?' I guess that's the billion dollar question. Learning more and more about who he is, that's the most enjoyable thing, when experienced by a devotee who is feeling that Love. Some think he is 'just a man' pretending to be more; my experience is that he is more, and pretending (much of the time) to be 'just a man.'

Best way I can say 'who' he is, is to give comparison to Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus at a certain point in his life became 'Christed,' at which time he became known as Jesus the Christ, or Jesus Christ. So too, with my Guru Maharaji. He was known as Sant Ji or Prem Pal, and he became 'Christed' -- hence the term 'Maharaji.' Whether he was Christed before birth or after, that's just no concern of mine. The important thing is that a 'Christed Master' is able to lift me out of agony-causing delusion, and gives me the help I cannot get by myself. He is more than an 'initiator of Knowledge'; rather, he repeatedly and unceasingly works as a Mirror for me -- he is always there, allowing me to see, if I will only focus my attention in his direction.

Yes, I know it is not 'politically correct' for me to say so. I just happen to find it impossible to be 'politically correct' about it. People around him personally and not personally have their doubts -- some allow the doubts to rule them, others do not. Those who do not, only they can really know who he is in a way which has any significance whatsoever.

If anyone with doubts about him is hanging around him personally, it is my sincere prayer that they will leave and take their doubts with them. He does not deserve that. He deserves only the best.

I can't remember your other questions, but I have one for you. What is a PAM? Does this mean 'People Around Maharaji?'

I believe that if the people on this website who claim to experience so much bliss from Knowledge without any personal connection with the Master were really experiencing the bliss they claim to be experiencing, this site would be very, very different. It would not spend so much time focusing on 'perceived' shortcomings of Maharaji or anyone else; rather, this site would be a Celebration of Life.

You've heard it before. It bears saying again: One can never understand what is beyond the mind with the mind; one cannot 'enclose' God within the thoughts of the mind; one cannot experience that Perfect Bliss without the help of the Living Master of the time. You need the Living Master of the time. And the only way to remove the doubts, is to listen to the Living Master, who gives us not only the address, but the key to the Supreme Goal.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:37:04 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
Your above rap we all heard and probably(for most of us) have given it ourselves.

Your definition of a PAM is correct.

The focus of this forum is peoples 'inner experiences' it is about the actions prempal rowatt and the results of them.

It's not about having a wonderful experience or not about having a wonderful experience.

Now go into the archives and read my post to you fully and then reply......of course only if you want to :>)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:43:51 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: CORRECTION to above
Message:
Your above rap we all heard and probably(for most of us) have given it ourselves.
Your definition of a PAM is correct.

The focus of this forum is NOT peoples 'inner experiences' it is about the actions prempal rowatt and the results of them.

It's not about having a wonderful experience or not about having a wonderful experience.

Now go into the archives and read my post to you fully and then reply in an honest human way.....of course only if you want to :>)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:38:12 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
Yes Yes ex ex, i could have written that myself a few months ago.
And yes on PAM? As long as M is just picture on your alter its all well and good. My experience is that the devil is in the details. The more fully you are involved with the Master the more interesting it gets. Thats why you and others are reading this forum. Remember, what you are describing above is a closed system. It's beyond the mind so you can't use your mind to evaluate it. right? So those people who have doubts aren't suppose to listen to their minds and remove themselves from M's locale. They are suppose to sit there until they explode in utter confusion and then are no longer bothering Maharaji. Meanwhile Maharaji cruises along. Question? What happened to the person who didn't remove themselves before it was too late? The got hurt, thats what. But Maharaji didn't do anything wrong, right? Well he set up the closed system and surrounded it with like-minded people then sat back to watch the fireworks. Once in a while he piped in with 'you better surrender guys and remember if you leave the safety of the closed system you'll go to hell.' Christ-like or not he was incompetent and in my opinion negligent in the matter of guiding peoples lives like he tried to do. The purpose of this page I believe is to provide an option, a doorway to leave the closed system. If one choses they can access this page from anywhere in the world (just like knowledge) and find people to communicate with who have successfully left the closed system and believe me it's not hell. And if that's what floats your boat you can meditate. I don't think anyone really cares. As far as celebration, it may not look like it but many of us are celebrating, within. hehehe
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:15:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Great post, Zac
Message:
I'm glad you had the wherewithal to put those words together so well. I am burned out on trying to get premies to look at those pesky details!!

Oh hell, who cares about those pesky details like where the money goes? I'm going to a video tonight and I don't care who knows it. Maharaji Im a comin' home, Father!!!! Ex-ex has made me see the light!
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:41:31 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
Well put! I think it's really important to illuminate how the system was kept closed. Explains why it's so hard to leave, and why people stay stuck.

Also loved your post about the 5-point feeling scale - very funny.

Thanks

Diz
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:08:58 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Hi Diz
Message:
Hi Diz- You know, what strikes me is that in 25 years it never occurred to me that I was in a situation like that. Absolutely mindboggling...but reading this page helped give me the freedom and courage to examine my situation without prejudice.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 08:38:37 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hi Diz
Message:
Well sounds to me like you've done some pretty thorough analysis very rapidly - your posts are really helping me, Zac, and I've been 'ex' for almost four years now.

I find it really useful, too, to hear what people who were premies until very recently have to say. Not sure why: partly because a lot of the things which really turned me off didn't happen in the ashram days, they happened in the late 80s and 90s. Also I think because MJ and his presentation has become more subtle, and critiques which are not familiar with the latest approach may not speak so easily to current premies-with-doubts and recent exes (on the other hand, as many people have pointed out, people who have received K in the last decade are fascinated to discover what happened in the 70s - so I guess each has its point).

Guess I just wanted to say is - please keep posting.

What was your story? When did you leave? What were the 'drips' for you? Were you heavily into it, or on the fringe? (I should look if you've posted a journey - if you have, just point me that way.)

Thanks Zac

Diz
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 18:28:48 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Hi Diz
Message:
I'm leaving now Diz. I post because I need to. I am feeling
feelings and connections with people that I haven't felt in 25 years. It's kinda sad... but on the otherhand it is exciting to be leaving the world of suspended feelings and adventuring into real life. Much better, much much better. Til later.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:46:24 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: Here is my last message
Message:
ex-ex said'Well...I 'came back' over 15 years ago. And my experience with Maharaji and Knowledge just keeps getting deeper and more beautiful and thrilling. '
I doubt that your experience of Maharaji is much more than seeing him at programs unless you are a PAM which I doubt because most of them have a hard time around him. Whatever your 'deeper experiences' are they are your own.
ex-ex said:'It's kind of like falling in love and getting to stay in that place where it's really exciting, for always. The 'honeymoon' is never over. '
I felt that way for many years. I believed that all my 'experiences' were from Him. His blatanty bad treatment of people made me begin to question him as an example of a human being and I could no longer justify his behaviour to myself or anyone else.
My mediations were always good if not fantastic and I can still meditate if I want to. Nothing 'experiental' has changed except that I am now beginning to feel like a complete human being. The beliefs he propagated robbed me of many years. But I am lucky compared to others who lost their lives.

'I feel no confusion. I have no doubts about Maharaji or Knowledge. I trust Maharaji --implicitly--.
Does that make it more clear?'

What do you not feel confusion about?
Who do you believe Maharaji is?

ex-ex said:'I have read people on here saying they 'practice' Knowledge but do not have a bond with Maharaji. I have tried it that way too. I can say from my experience that to practice the techniques of Knowledge without listening to Maharaji, and without feeling that 'bond of love' with the Master, practicing Knowledge is like eating food without salt. It is the love, the feelings of real meaning within, that when that connects at the same time as practicing the techniques, this is when the Magic Happens. (If you don't mind my saying so.)'

Well ex-ex, there are many people who use these techniques who have never heard of M or Guru.
Also I can testify that 'the magic' is not exclusive to prempal. That is his most wicked lie. The magic is in all of us and is us.

Why do followers of prem pal think they are the only ones who know the magic?

If you ever get free of the cult you will find that there is a whole world of 'premies' who are free beings grooving on the magic of life.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:20:03 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: food with too much salt
Message:
ex-ex, you say, practising Knowledge without an emotional bond
to M. is like eating food without salt. Then I prefer to eat without
salt!
Too much salt, and you can't eat at all. I think that's the experience
most of us had.
I'm sorry, you're definitely wrong. You can have a wonderful
experience without M. A much better one, in fact. The bond
to M. cripples you. The moment you realize it, you become
an ex-ex-ex, Good luck to you, hope you'll come down safely.

H
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:57:23 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: Time to grow...
Message:
You need the Living Master of the time

You are just repeating what you have heard my friend, because it comforts you, but there are some problems with your argument.

When Jesus was crucified there was panic amongst the followers. Who would lead them now? Well they got over that one with some philosophical fudging, carried on and started the church etc..

Same thing happened with Shri Hans until, well bless my soul, little Prem Pal inherited the lot, carried on and made a fortune.

Thing is ex-ex, if you take this stuff seriously, you have to do your homework. So was Jesus the Perfect Master? If not, your argument stinks, but if so, where is the link between M and Jesus? Is the descendancy of Masters a physical thing, like with Shri Hans and M or a kind of convenient spiritual thing which can jump around?

If there is no need for a link then you are saying that each Master can do it on his/her own. And if that's true then so can you or me.

Finally, what if M gets hit by the proverbial bus. I remember when he was having an operation on his stomach. We were all shitting ourselves at the prospect of being set free.

Will you survive if he dies? Will your experience change? If what you say is true, then the moment he pops his clogs your experience of meditation will hit an all time low......

Think about it ex-ex and tell me, what will you do when he goes.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:57:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: Time to grow...
Message:
Dear ex-ex and Richard,
When people say you NEED a living master and hearing the M looks at ex's, at least the ex's on this site as his enemies than why to I still enjoy a full experience of meditation. I still do K but just when and how I want to and it is still a wonderful experience. I do not have a master, well maybe my 17 yr old daughter! :) But none I'll admit to and if it was a gift from M why wouldn't he take it away, hmmmmmmmm?
Hey Richard, good to 'see' you as always. That is if you are the Richard that I 'know'.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:55:42 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Time to grow...
Message:
Hi Robyn,

It's me, I think.
Thanks for your email.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 15:49:32 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time to grow...
Message:
I agree very much with what Richard is saying here, and many of you have already read my postings on this matter; I just don't believe in masters, especially a master over others. Looking in my 'Strong's Concordince of the Christian Bible; No-where in the Bible are the words 'Perfect Master', Jesus nor Buddah ever called themselves a perfect master. The term 'Perfect Master' came out of Primpal Rawat's culture, which is highly Hindu influenced.
He sold westerners on the 'title' perfect master. Indeed, before he came to the west very few of us had ever heard the term 'Perfect Master', or for that matter the term 'darshan'. These are all derived from Hindu sanskrit. As far as who I think Maharaji is, he has some potential talent, just like everyone else, but he is no greater or lesser (I'm being kind) than anyone else. He say's we should be grateful to him, he should be grateful to us! And to those who still follow him! In my opinion the dude has become very arrogant. He does not appear to me as a high spiritual being, I would say he appears more like a banker, he dresses like one. Oh, and yes I still do the knowledge techniques, without maharaji, and have great meditations. I might add I also do a number of other meditation techniques with great satisfaction.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:24:55 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: I don't know how to say this..
Message:
Sam,

That was really well put. It was concise yet detailed, organised and yet it flowed. You were strong but, somehow, humble and hard without being malicious.

Are you looking for followers?

'Scuse my humour this morning Sam, it must be these pills I'm taking.

Great post.

regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 10:57:16 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I don't know how to say this..
Message:
Only if they brought extremely large sums of money. Actually I would never want to be a guru, I don't want that kind of responsibility. I have worked in the field of health and human services a very long time, one of the jobs I had along the way was that of a college professor, and students treated me as though I was their guru. I saw this behavior with most college professors. I did'nt care for it, it made me very vunerable. But I did see allot of my collegues who ate it up and enjoyed being worshipped. They exploited this kind of behavior. I think there are allot of people out there looking for guru's, and I saw this very heavily on college campuses. They're looking for someone to worship, a savior, someone who'll give them THE ANSWER. Whatever that might be. These days I have lot's of clients, mostly female, and I make them responsible for their own lives. I'm not interested in having a following. I tell people don't walk in anyone elses foot steps, walk on fresh ground. Now, I think you were just joking Richard, but I thought I'd elaborate anyway.
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 09:37:51 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: I hear you Sam
Message:
Sam,

I totally agree. Having taught undergraduates myself, though not at your level, I have experienced this phenomena of students wanting to arrive at the answer without walking the route.

I have come to the conclusion that 'walking the route' is the whole point. This places a great responsibility on the teacher to inspire students to want to think for themselves. Good teachers have this ability, both in academia and elswhere.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:05:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
He was known as Sant Ji or Prem Pal, and he became 'Christed' -- hence the term 'Maharaji.' Whether he was Christed before birth or after, that's just no concern of mine.

If you don't know if he was 'Christed' before or after he was born, how do you know he was 'Christed' at all?

some allow the doubts to rule them, others do not. Those who do not, only they can really know who he is in a way which has any significance whatsoever.

Some just confornt their doubts and weigh the significance of them. Others just bury their heads in the sand afraid of the truth their doubts might reveal to them. Is this the case with you?

I believe that if the people on this website who claim to experience so much bliss from Knowledge without any personal connection with the Master were really experiencing the bliss they claim to be experiencing, this site would be very, very different. It would not spend so much time focusing on 'perceived' shortcomings of Maharaji or anyone else; rather, this site would be a Celebration of Life.

Hmm. I'm not one of those people who was ever blissed out by Knowledge. And you know something? That's not even what I was interested in. I was looking for God realization, and an understanding of myself. I never got into the blissed out craze that so many others did. As a matter of fact, I found blissed out premies to be a little scary. Are you a blissed out premie?

One can never understand what is beyond the mind with the mind

I don't think you know very much about your mind, ex-ex. How much studying of it have you done? You might find that, in all probability, there is nothing you experience which is outside the realm of your mind, including God consciousness. You should look more into it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 15:17:50 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: Who is Maharaji?
Message:
Why, that's simple.
He's just a man on the telephone. (snicker, Brian) Everyone, see the flashy EV catalog for proof of this. That is the cheesiest catalog I have EVER seen in my life. Who would have that 'attractive' deck of playing cards? Who designed that stuff?

By the way, TD, if you are here, I couldn't believe how much they wanted for that sarong. It's nice, and all, but REALLY...

VP
Reality persists
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 18:42:56 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: VP and all
Subject: Who is Guru Maharaji?
Message:
Just had a thought! Is this stuff interesting? Would the public at large be interested in these stories? Could we all participate in working at writing our stories down? Who Is Guru Maharaji? Answered. Is there potential profit? Sorry can't help myself. Could AJW as a professional compile and edit our stories for a publisher and receive compensation commensurate with the work involved? Could readers of the book go online and communicate directly with the writers of these stories? A first. Could we get the publishers to throw a party for the authors and spouses in Bermuda possibly? Just a thought.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:19:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Who is Maharaji?
Message:
Hi VP, How are you?

I actually got to TOUCH the sarong that TD bought. It was very exciting.

I think it's clear who GMJ is, I mean I remember the song, 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji' That song says he is

The Artist of Creation

{and that he will be}

Feeding all the people.

Couldn't be clearer, right?
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:34:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The power of the sarong
Message:
What will he be feeding us? Steak? I hope so.

I touched that sarong, too, and so did Brian (I think) Maybe that can be the ex-premie initiation. You have to see Katie and touch the sarong. Brian thinks it looks like a table cloth, by the way.

I'm doing okay, I guess. I've been better, but thanks for asking. How are you?

I was a bit dismayed to read some of the stuff on here about Tinky Winky and homosexuals, etc. Heavy Sigh. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Where is Jim? I heard he quit the forum, but I have $100 riding on him coming back here before too long.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:47:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The power of the sarong
Message:
I'm doing great -- I'm about to go skiing for the weekend with all expenses paid by my firm. It's the least they can do. It's so great that about 10 feet of snow just fell in the Sierra. Now I just have to see if Gerry and I can stand spending a long weekend with about 80 lawyers and their spouses.

Yeah, Jerry Falwell's a piece of work. I remember when he called Ellen Degeneress 'Ellen Degenerate.' I think he has the mentality of a fourth grader. Unfortunately, apparently so do the people who take him seriously.

I think Jim is taking a break and pursuing his career. I won't take you up on your bet, because he will be back, now doubt.

As for what Big M will be feeding us, hey, I'd accept chocolate chip cookies or maybe apple pie.

VP, I hope whatever is making you qualify your answer about not feeling so great gets better. It's nice to see you back here. [By the way, when I see you say 'snicker,' I always think of the candy bar.:) -- Do you think I'm obsessed with food? Maybe that's the hedonistic streak Scott thinks I have.]
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 14:46:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sometimes you feel like a nut
Message:
Thanks, JW.
I hope that you and Gerry have a great trip. It sounds like a blast!

'Snicker' came from Brian. When I first started to read the forum, he was posting more often than he does now. He used to say 'snicker' all the time. When I emailed him, he told me to say it a lot and to use smiley faces because that would irritate Katie--sorry, Katie, but it is true ;) So I guess it's a joke that got out of hand.

How can you be a vegetarian and be a hedonist? Aren't those two terms mutually exclusive? Doesn't Scott know this?-sheesh.

I'm a hedonist myself. I could give all you 'naughty homosexuals' a run for your money, I'm sure-ha ha ha! I shouldn't laugh, because these opinions people have (stereotypes) really aren't funny. But sometimes laughter is a way we cope with what we can't change, isn't it? Especially if an opinion is so absurd we aren't sure what else to do with it.

BTW, I don't know where those statistics on sex came from (how many times per week), but I think the heterosexual numbers were a bit LOW myself...snicker! (In reality I prefer Almond Joy bars)

Have a good one. Nice talking to you again, JW.
VP
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:36:25 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
Dear ex-ex,

What mystery? Instead of comparing M to Jesus, you should be comparing him to the dozens if not hundreds of Guru groups and cults around the world right now who have similar leaders with similar claims and whose followers have experiences just like you do.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 23:40:55 (EST)
From: lurker
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: Brain dead
Message:
Braindead dickhead.I'm sure they said the same about hitler.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:18:18 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: ex-ex
Subject: your comments/responses
Message:
ex-ex, I'm curious; when do You think Jesus was 'Christed?' Was it at his baptism when he saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove and heard a voice which said 'This is my son in whom I am well pleased?' Or was it at the transfiguration when Peter, James, and John saw him with Moses and Elijah on the mountain top, shining with light? Was it at the resurrection, or at his ascencion? When was Jesus 'Christed?' And when was Maharaj-ji 'Christed (I personally am incapable of considering M to be the 'annointed one)? I am very interested in your answer.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:18:26 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: mickey?
Message:
Mickey..just wondering... ever spend three months putting flyers on cars.. saw the Playhouse ...watched a guy play a video game..to the end and saw white light...marquee magic... and AAwards?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:31:45 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New Poll under construction
Message:
Hi Barney- Been thinking about ideas for a new poll. Let me know what you think about this. 2 polls, one for devotees of GMJ and one for the rest of us heathens. Subject: Rate your happiness.
1. Permanently in God consciousness. 2. happy 3. Content 4. Confused 5. Miserable. I personally have moved up from confused to content in the past two weeks although 4 weeks ago I would have said I was happy though I was miserable because I wanted God consciousness so this poll may not work, but i am thinking on it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 02:26:57 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Anyone know CGI?
Message:
Hey all,

Zac has suggested that a comprehensive poll would be nice to have regarding people's experience with Maharaji and Knowledge.

We've already got some good ideas for questions. I can probably put together the HTML for it, but I am clueless as to how to write the CGI that would live on my ISP. I assume that the CGI could add the responses to text file and once I have that I can work that into a result page on a periodic basis in order to keep the CGI simple.

The Backend is SGI box.

However, looking at the help pages for my ISP it looks like they have a CGI Script that will Email me the responses. I can live with this, but will have to manually copy and paste and parse the results for massaging.

Anybody?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 04:10:55 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: New Poll under construction
Message:
No, don't answer and post here. It will be too messy and too much work for me to grab your answers. Please wait until I announce the survey is ready at the House of Drek.

Here's a list of questions.
If you have any additional questions or suggestions for the survey please post them.

Please note: I see that some of the questions will be quite personal and many people might not answer even though there is no way to determine who responded via the webbrowser.

The inclusion of such personal questions might actually provide some very interesting information for us to consider. Again, don't answer here.

I REPEAT, DO NOT RESPOND HERE - WAIT UNTIL THE TEACHER HANDS OUT THE PENCILS AND TELLS YOU TO START THE TEST!

You
Sex - Male, Female
Year Born

Served in Armed Forces?
Protested Vietnam war?
Served time in prison?
Convicted of a felony?

Republican, Democrat, Independent, Green Party, Socialist, Marxist, Libertarian

Voted for Reagan?

Highest education level?

The Family you grew up with
Number of Siblings
Number of siblings rec'd Knowledge

Your birth order or constellation? (what's the technical term for this?)

Parents separated when you were how old?
Do you feel that your family was dysfunctional Y/N?
Substance abuse by parents
Substance use, abuse by siblings
Physical abuse by parents against each other
Physical abuse by parents against children
Emotional abuse by parents against each other
Emotional abuse by parents against children
Sexual abuse by parents against each other
Sexual abuse by parents against children

Family Income Level
Bill Gates
Maharaji
Upper Upper
Upper
Upper Middle
Middle
Lower Middle
Lower
Poverty
Welfare

Your Substance Usage Before Knowledge
Year you first sniffed glue?
Year you first drank alcohol?
Year first smoked marijuana?
Year first used LSD?
Year first used Speed?
Year first used Cocaine?
Year first used Designer Drugs (XTC)?
Year first used Heroin?
Year first used prescribed drugs?

Did you consider your use of any of the above to be a problem?

Your Substance Usage During Knowledge
Year you first sniffed glue?
Year you first drank alcohol?
Year first smoked marijuana?
Year first used LSD?
Year first used Speed?
Year first used Cocaine?
Year first used Designer Drugs (XTC)?
Year first used Heroin?
Methadone?
Year first used prescribed drugs?

Do you consider your use of any of the above to be a problem?

Your Substance Usage After Knowledge
Year you first sniffed glue?
Year you first drank alcohol?
Year first smoked marijuana?
Year first used LSD?
Year first used Speed?
Year first used Cocaine?
Year first used Designer Drugs (XTC)?
Year first used Heroin?
Methadone?
Year first used prescribed drugs?

Do you consider your use of any of the above to be a problem?

Your Current Usage
milk?
glue?
alcohol?
marijuana?
LSD?
Speed?
Cocaine?
XTC?
Heroin?
Methadone?
Prescribed drugs?

Do you consider your use of any of the above to be a problem?

Marital Status Never married, Single, Divorced, Widowed, Married
Number of Divorces
Number of serious Live-In relationships

Number of children

Current Standard of Living
Bill Gates - send me a copy of a bug free Windows98 or a million bucks, which ever is easiest for you.
Maharaji - please let me polish your gold toilets
Upper Upper - please send me your credit card number or a hot tip
Upper - just let me show your wife a good time
Upper Middle - You must not have kids or you bought a hot internet stock back in 1974.
Middle - Have your spouse get a second job doing incomce tax preparation and you'll go up a whole quarter notch. After all, he/she is a CPA and the his/her firm doesn't mind the moonlighting.
Lower Middle - Honey, let's have the kids sleep in the station wagon tonight so we can make love in the back of the Oldsmobile.
Lower - I'm praying for you. You are already working too many jobs.
Poverty - I'll send a credit card number
Welfare - Don't you ever even think about voting Republican again
On The Streets - Didn't you serve me at the Mission last week?

What is your net worth? Less than Zero, <10K,< 50K, etc.
Were you ever homeless?
Ever live on the streets?
Presently Employed?
Number of times fired from a job?
Number of time on unemployment?
Do you consider your employment history to be good?
Are you satisfied with your career?
Do feel that time you spent with Maharaji has hindered your career development?

Finally, The Questions
Religion at time of receiving K
Current religious belief
Practiced other meditation prior to K

Year spiritual search began
Year spiritual search ended

Year first heard of Maharaji
Year rec'd K
Believed Maharaji was God (yes,no)
Years actively practicing K
Years attending satsang
Years attending videos
Years attending programs with Maharaji
Estimated number of Maharaji events you attended
Year you started REALLY doubting?
Year stopped meditating
Year stopped believing Maharaji

The Ashram
Number of times you lived in the Ashram
First year in Ashram
Year out of Ashram
Had a sexual relationship with another person while living in the Ashram
Had sex with yourself while living Ashram
Just had oral sex while living in the Ashram
Just had oral sex with yourself while living in the Ashram
Thought about sex?
Took drugs while you lived in the ashram
Ate meat while you lived in the Ashram

If not living in the Ashram did you:
Had sex with a person living in the Ashram
Just had oral sex with a person living in the Ashram
Had sex with yourself while visiting the Ashram
Thought about sex while in the ashram

Arti - Loved it, Liked it, OK, Didn't Like, Hated
Your favorite Mahatma?
Least favorite Mahatma?

Service
Jumbling?
Leafleting?
Postering?
Divine Sales?
Rainbow Grocery?
DECA?
Maharaji's Residences?
Hospital Satsang?
Prison Satsang?

The Really Big Shows
India 1971
London 1971
Boulder 71
Montrose
Soul Rush
Millenium
etc.

How did you get indoctrinated, what sold you on gmj?

What was the final straw, what broke the spell?

Do you regret your MJ experience, entirely?
Did you get anything good from it at all?

How much money would you estimate you've donated over the years?

Number of programs attended outside of home country

How did you get indoctrinated, what sold you on gmj?

No, don't answer the survey post here. Please wait until I announce the survey is ready at the House of Drek.

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 18:31:01 (EST)
From: peter howie
Email: petebear@ozemaiol.com.au
To: Roger Drek
Subject: New Poll under construction
Message:
Suggestions for the questionnaire.

The questions you have a really great to think through. However for you to get some meaningful information from them you will need to really think it through. If there is anyone on this list who is a good market researcher and statistician they could help (I hope I'm not insulting you if you are one!)

I think the questionnaire
* needs to be simple enough for anyone to answer and short enough so that they don't feel pissed off at the length
* framed in non-judgemental language terms so that the answer has a chance of being meaningful (eg last question - how can I answer if I don;t feel I was ever indoctrinated
* needs to be based on a set of meta-questions for which you are trying to find out the underlying information - this is where the statistician will come in handy.

If it is not reasonably rigorous then you will end up with heaps of information that looks impressive but may mean little.

You will also need to get an idea of numbers or people and the randomness of the sample etc etc

Cheers

Peter Howie
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:32:09 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: peter howie
Subject: New Poll under construction
Message:
Thanks Peter,

While I only portray a Statistician in television, I am not one in real life. However, I've done some statistical work with surveys.

Yes, it has occurred to me that there are at least two problems with the rough draft proposal:

1. the length
2. the biased non-neutral language

I have done some work in controlled settings with paid subjects (criminal and anti-social behavior) or subjects that had a definite interest in influencing an outcome (public policy) and, therefore, the questionnaires were rather lengthy. Basically, criminals want fewer law enforcement officers enforcing less restrictive laws. ;)

Yes, while coming up with the list of questions regarding personal information, it occurred to me that I was seeking to determine whether there is a correlation with low self-esteem derived from a dysfunctional family environment. I have heard that those attracted to cults are young people coming from a dysfunctional family with a problematic father figure accompanied by a cataclysmic life event.

Perhaps, I should cut this out or make it optional since the research has already been done.

You will also need to get an idea of numbers or people and the randomness of the sample etc etc

As with every Internet based poll there is no guarantee that the sample population matches the general population since participating in the poll is self elected.

Thanks again, your ideas are under advisement and being studied by the well paid committee.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:32:18 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Barney Tech Support needed(ot)
Message:
I'm Desperately seeking technical support. I'm currently running the latest version of Girlfriend and having some problems.
I've been running the same version of DrinkingBuddies 1.0 all along as my primary application, and all the Girlfriend releases have always conflicted with it.I hear the Drinking Buddies won't crash if you run Girlfriend in background mode with the sound switched off. But I'm embarrassed to say that I can't find the switch to turn it off. I just run them separately,and it works OK.
Girlfriend also seems to have a problem coexisting with my Golf program,often trying to abort my Golf program with some sort of timing incompatibility. I probably should have stayed with Girlfriend 1.0, but I thought I might see better performance with Girlfriend 2.0. After months of conflicts and other problems, I consulted a friend who has had experience with Girlfriend 2.0. He said that I probably didn't have enough cache to run Girlfriend 2.0 and that eventually it would require a Token Ring to run properly. He was right - as soon as I purged my cache,it installed itself. Shortly after that, I installed Girlfriend 3.0 beta. All the bugs were supposed to be gone, but the first time I used it, it gave me a virus. I had to clean out my whole system and shut down for awhile. I very cautiously upgraded to Girlfriend 4.0. This time I used a SCSI probe first and also installed virus protection. It worked OK for awhile until I discovered Girlfriend 1.0 was still in my system! I tried to run Girlfriend 1.0 again with Girlfriend 4.0 still installed, but Girlfriend 4.0 has a feature that I didn't know about that automatically senses the
presence of Girlfriend 1.0 and communicates with it in someway, which results in the immediate removal of both versions!
The version I have now works pretty well, but there are still some
problems. Like all versions of Girlfriend, it is written in some obscure language that I can't understand, much less re-program. Frankly, I think that there is too much attention paid to the look and feel and not enough to the desired functionality. Also, to get the best connections with your hardware, you usually have to use gold plated contacts. And I've never liked how Girlfriend is totally 'object-oriented'.
A year ago, a friend of mine upgraded his version of Girlfriend to
GirlfriendPlus 1.0, which is a Terminate and Stay Resident version of Girlfriend. He discovered that GirlfriendPlus 1.0 expires within a year if you don't upgrade to Fiancee 1.0. So he did! But soon after that, you have to upgrade to Wife 1.0, which he describes as a 'huge resource hog'. It has taken up all his space, so he can't load anything else. One of the primary reasons that he upgraded to Wife 1.0 is that it came bundled with FreeSexPlus 1.0. Well it turns out that the resource allocation module of Wife 1.0 sometimes prohibits access to FreeSexPlus, particularly the new Plug and Play items he wanted to try. On top of that, Wife 1.0 must be running on a well warmed-up system before he can do anything. And, although he did not ask for it, Wife 1.0 came with
MotherInLaw 1.0 which has an automatic pop-up feature that he can't turn off.
I told him to install Mistress 1.0, but he said that he heard that if you try to run it without first uninstalling Wife, that Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.0 won't install anyway due to insufficient resources. Any suggestions?

Appreciate the work that your putting into the new poll, hope you got a laugh outta this.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 12:32:50 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Barney Tech Support needed(ot)
Message:
Thanks, I've seeen that before, but read it anyway. I liked it so much that I saved it and added it to my webpage here at home and then read it again.

So clever!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 04:12:56 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Want a list of Mahatmas, etc.
Message:
For the survey I'd like to have a list of Mahatmas and Initiators and other PAMs.

Please post them.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:07:11 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Survey
Message:
Wonderful! Excellent! Can't wait to see the final form.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:07:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Roger
Subject: Survey
Message:
I especially liked the income level choices:
1)Bill Gates
2)Maharaji
3)Upper Upper

Clever.

I think it would be interesting to see what kind of patterns (if any) emerge. Don't make too many changes. If you cut the length, you cut the amt. of info you are going to get about your participants, correct?

Can't wait to see those results. You are going to post them somewhere, aren't you?
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Date: Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 14:40:32 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Survey
Message:
Yes, the survey and the results will be on the House of Drek.

Not yet. I gotta build it and they might come.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:28:22 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Want a list of Mahatmas, etc.
Message:
Barney- What do we need here? Current names or a 30 year history.
Many of the instructors from late 70's thru early 80's left and are not involved. They may even post here or at least read. They have some amazing tales to tell. Do we need to bring them and possibly their families into this?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:57:31 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: 100s of Mahatmas!
Message:
Really.

Indians, and westerners, 2-300 part-time in the 80s-early 90s.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:21:33 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 100s of Mahatmas!
Message:
Oh?

Well, that's too many. I guess that I'm more interested in the top list of highly recognizable people.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:15:13 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Want a list of Mahatmas, etc.
Message:
Good question. Maybe Jean-Michel would care to respond?

I would propose that the obvious villains probably might not hang around here and the righteous have nothing to fear. Furthermore, it would give the villainous an opportunity to repent and come clean or at least understand how they were seen.

The members of the cult did suffer from emotional, psychological, sexual, and on the rare occasion physical abuse. And some of the Mahatmas, Initiators, Instructors, PAMs, etc. were responsible.

Also some of the Mahatmas, Initiators, Instructors, PAMs might have been decent caring people that were able to help others and set a good example regardless of the cult.

Ok, let me know what you think. I don't want to cause harm here.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 12:53:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Want a list of Mahatmas, etc.
Message:
Plenty of those instructors' names have been printed in various publications, but I wouldn't reproduce them.

Most of them are not 'villains' (if any), I would rather consider them as victims.

Many of them have left the cult, many are fence sitting, some are definitely supporting the BM's deceit....

This is a difficult issue. Why would you make lists of those guys?
Some might also leave in the future, and they might not like having their names on the Internet, unless the decide it themselves, if they want to testify.

Some of them are already public, like those signing EV's mailings, those posting on ELK.

I don't like that idea.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 13:03:22 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Want a list of Mahatmas, etc.
Message:
Ok, ok, ok.

I thought that this would be a fun item, but I don't want to cross the line.

How about just the classic list of the original Indian Mahatmas?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 13:27:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Mahatmas' names
Message:
I think most of these guys had 'names' given by the BM or mataji, which are not their christian names. Even some westerners.

Why not?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:13:48 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
I have been thinking about the posts below about 'making your own reality', from ironbruins etc. I think the idea is both true and untrue.

The not-trueness is to do with reality being what I see and experience around me which I don't have any control of. It is actual and it can hurt me.

The trueness is that what I see and experience around me is based on what I believe, value and pay attendtion to.

This means that if I belive and have a value that the world is a great place - then I will have a very large tendency to see and pay attention to only those things that support my belief and value that the world is a great place - and as well I will tend to avoid, rationalise and simply not see those things that disconfirm my befief and value that the world is great.

This of course leads people to get the sense that they are living in a different reality from some other people. And in a sense they are. They are looking at the same body of evidence and seeing very different things(eg Falwell and teletubbies). Some people look at the world and see 'gods handywork' other look at the very same world the first person looked at and see 'people's hadnywork', someone else will see 'Brahma's handyowrk' and I used to see 'BM's handywork'.

The real question for me is - how do I determine my own beliefs and values and how they are influencing my perception of the world and my experiences. And if I can determine my own beliefs and values how can I then work out if I have actually chosen them or they have been chosen for me or the whole thing is an accident. And how can I change them if I don't like them.

These are real questions for me in my work because I work as an adult educater assisting my clients to look at the choices they have made. And then to see how these choices influence the 'reality' of the world they live in.

This process is the one that I utilised to stay with BM. I only noticed the confirming and ignored the disconfirming evidence (with a little help from the BM himself to keep that evidence away from me). Until the disconfirming evidence was significant, come from a reputable source (my own eyes, reading etc) and I felt OK about moving into a destabilised state I found it impossible to shift.

And on the other hand, shifting is hard, difficult and uncomfortable work. And one of the major values of 'BM and all that' was/is 'bliss is good, bliss is all, feeling bliss is the whole thing'(whether from devotion, meditation etc). This meant I had a built in reluctance to shift as well into discomfort (otherwise known as 'the realm of mind').

Thoughts and learnings for now

Cheers

Peter Howie
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:07:10 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
Great post again, a lot there to think about. I think what you said below about being willing to learn and grow, is important when you're reevaluting reality. Being willing to see that other people have different perspectives and realities, as you obviously do, helps too. Hell we may not ever have all the answers, but I sure as hell hope I never stop learning. Maybe that's the best we can all do!
Regarding choices: Sometimes I think people need help learning to go to Plan B gracefully when Plan A doesn't work out. SOmetimes that can be a choice too.
Cheers to you too
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:37:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
The trueness is that what I see and experience around me is based on what I believe, value and pay attendtion to.

This is circular, really, because what you believe often comes from what you experience around you. It's a dynamic process and goes in both directions. My values and beliefs change based on what I see, learn, experience in interacting with the world and other people. And yes, like everyone else, I approach the world, others, and learning, based on what I already know and believe. I think the key point is building on what you already know. If there is one thing I've seen since I have gotten older itt's that my values become more complicated, more flexible, because I have more experience and have to accommodate them in my value system. My values have to stretch and grow. The danger is to stagnate, to hold on to beliefs and protect them from experiences that mitigate against them. It does happen, but usually because someone has imposed a rigid belief system that doesn't allow for growth. I would put fundamentalism in this category, as well as Maharaji's cult, both in the 70s and now.

Even as a premie, I still saw the things that contradicted what Maharaji had said was true -- It wasn't as if I had put on blinders and couldn't see them. But what I did was repress them because of the commandment not to doubt. But I really did see them, I saw the reality, I just chose to ignore it for as long as I could. Of course, I couldn't ignore it forever, and the whole cult mechanism broke down for me. So for me, even in the cult I couldn't really create a different reality, I could just try to repress and not think about the parts of my reality the didn't fit.

And one of the major values of 'BM and all that' was/is 'bliss is good, bliss is all, feeling bliss is the whole thing'(whether from devotion, meditation etc).

You know, I tend to think this really wasn't a value of BM and the cult. Not really. The value was that you were SUPPOSED to be in bliss, and of course, most of the time we weren't, so the value was more that you were to play the part of being in bliss, or berate ourselves for not being there. That was the real system if you ask me.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:24:30 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
Hey JW,
I am glad to read that stagnation part of your post because I believe that also and forgot to include it in my post. Like my dad always said: 'Between me and my brother, we know everything.' Just to complete that, then he'd say, ask me anything and of course his answer would always me, 'Oh, my brother knows that.' :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:24:01 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
The value was that you were SUPPOSED to be in bliss, and of course, most of the time we weren't, so the value was more that you were to play the part of being in bliss, or berate ourselves for not being there.

You know, JW, when I listen to people who were in as deep as you and hear that most premies were just pretending to be blissed out, I wonder if Maharaji knew this. Did he know that most of his adoring premies were just putting on a front? Or did he really think that he was enriching the lives of every smiling face he saw? Not once did I ever hear him say that 'Most of you are full of shit. I know this Knowledge is not working for you and never has'. Was he thinking that? I wonder.

And if it's true about his alcohol abuse, what could Knowledge have been doing for him? Certainly, he must have been perplexed how Knowledge could be working for others but not himself. It doesn't make any kind of sense how someone could be the leading spokesman for something which he himself is getting nothing out of. It's madness.

Even now, as I reflect on watching Maharaji giving satsang, he looked so honest in what he was saying, like he was really living every word. And to be honest, it was this belief of mine that Maharaji was living proof that Knowledge is everything that it's cranked up to be that kept me practicing it. It certainly wasn't my own experience. You would think that there would be telltale signs that Maharaji was just kidding himself. Maybe there was and I just didn't see them because I didn't want to. I don't know.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 00:02:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
Jerry:

Most of the premies I knew, particularly the ashram premies, were definitely NOT blissed out most of the time and in fact many of them were miserable most of the time, me included. But they didn't feel they could go around saying that, and certainly not in front of Maharaji. I don 't think Maharaji had any interest whatsoever in whether the premies were happy or sad or whether they were experiencing anything whatsoever. I really don't think he gave a shit. To my knowledge, he never displayed the least bit of interest in any of us as individuals, except for those who worked closely around him. I've told people that I lived in Maharaji's ashram, dedicated my whole life, for almost 10 years, and I never even spoke to Maharaji, not even once.

Even now, as I reflect on watching Maharaji giving satsang, he looked so honest in what he was saying, like he was really living every word.

There is a real pattern in the way he speaks, which I think he learned from childhood, speaking before large crowds. He speaks with complete confidence. He never says 'um' or 'ah,' he pauses a lot. He says outrageously simplistic things. If you watch a video of his and put it on fast forward, you can see his mannerisms. He makes a statement or two, pauses, and leans forward and glares at the audience. He does that over and over and over. On fast forward you can really see it.

Later on he learned to tell a few jokes, cute stories, etc., but basically he just says stuff slowly with long pauses so it sounds profound. It's a pretty simple forumula. And then, of course, if you don't believe in him anymore, suddenly, he doesn't even sound very sincere, not to mention very coherent.

If you have a strong belief in someone, you want so badly for them to succeed, be sincere and profound, that you will find profundity in the most inane crap. In fact, I'm convinced that most premies don't really listen to the content of what he says. I mean, he never says anything new anyway -- it's mostly just an exercise of shutting of your brain and letting it waft over you, kind of like meditation. In fact, M speaks in a very rhythmic, repetitive, fashion that is very conducive to that.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 11:38:43 (EST)
From: guroovy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
Very good observation and analysis of BM's delivery. Actually he has no message, so, as they say, '' the media is the message,'' or ''it's all in the timing.'' I experimented with a video and it is as you have suggested. Good work.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 10:18:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Reality, whose is it anyway
Message:
Dear Peter,
This is a great post. I think reality is always changing right down to the rocks, glaciers, the earth cycles down into the core of the earth at the ocean and the earth cycles back to the earth through valcanoes and fissures. I think that is the basic back drop for everything else. We are all part of this cyclical existance and also I think we change our reality as we grow and change or digress and change. No wether our reality changes us or we change our reality, that question is like which came first the chicken or the egg and in the end what does figuring it out bring us. I don't think, although I use to in an earlier reality of mine, that you have to figure everything out. In fact I have made greater strides in getting through and beyond things that were holding me back when I finally realized I didn't need to always know WHY and just became sincere about the end results I wanted which was to grow to be a better person which is also a never ending process. I think we and our personal realities change and keep stride with our needs and the lessons we need to learn.
Well I've got to get to work or I'll have to in tomorrow.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 05:26:56 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Many posts here have suggested not to throw away the baby with the bathwater. I take it as the bathwater means Prem Pal,
but what is the baby? I'd like to hear opinions on this, 'cause I think they might vary a lot.
Was there ever a baby, or was it only rotten vegetables?

After starting to read this site two months ago - having had nothing to do with premies since 15 years -
I noticed that I still had lots of bottled up anger with Prem Pal, though I thought I had gotten over it years ago. But, obviously there were still scars that needed healing.

Then, I had this dream. I dreamt that I was up at the top of a high tower by the sea. I was there with M. I fought with him, and I killed him, and threw him out of the window. He fell to the ground, and landed in the form of a plate that got broken to pieces.
I took one the pieces with me as a memory, put in into my pocket, left the other pieces there, and went off.
I guess, for me, the piece I brought along was the baby. It was a very cleansing dream.

Happy
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 06:02:03 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
That reminds me of a dream I had a few weeks ago:

The BM was sitting on one of the chairs he's usually seated on at programs, and was staring at me.
And I was puting him to sleep giving him an injection in his hand's vein. (I'm a vet, not in dreams, that's my job)

Then he leaned back, and that was it!

I was also very released after that dream, feeling I'm not afraid of him anymore, and not under the influence of his 'power', like the one I've always felt in his gaze. His eyes are now dead for me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:29:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
WHOA!! That was a powerful dream!!

You euthanized BM!! While staring into his eyes!! Talk about taking your power back!!!

Did his eyes used to have alot of power over you when you were an initiator? Were his eyes loving, or just powerful or what?

So you are a vet--what a cool job. What type of animals do you specialize in?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:16:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Euthanizing BM!
Message:
I used to really get blissed out whilst catching his gaze.
The kind of feeling you have when you feel someone's deep love for you.
I really used to feel (imagine is the right word) he was in love with me!
Until the day I discovered a premie I liked had the same eyes, and I fell in love with her... and finally discovered she didn't love me, nor does the BM!

What type of animals do you specialize in?

As I live in Paris France, I'm of course specialized in dogs and cats.
When I choose this job, my intention and plans was to work on the countryside, and deal with cattle. Which I did for a few years.
Then, as I heard more and more satsang where he insisted on dedication, listening to satsang, moving to the ashram etc, I decided to leave the countryside and come back to Paris where 'everything' was happening. And I stayed ever since.
That's still very painful, as I had to leave what I liked the most in my life (living on the countryside) to follow such a deceitful guru.
And now I'm stuck here. I like my job and Paris too, but still feel lots of regrets, as you can imagine. It's very painful thinking that I messed up with my lifeplans for such a person.

That's a main part of my resentment against him.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:01:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Euthanizing BM!
Message:
I've heard from quite a few ex-es that they moved certain places to be near this or that residence of the BM. Moving and reestablishing a practice at our age is next to impossible I think so I understand your resentment

I have heard that Parisians are quite into their dogs and bring them into restaurants.
That sucks that you gave up your life plans because you imagined he loved you. I hope you can still get out in the country at least for vacations.
The reason I asked you about the animals you specialize in is because I know there are country vets who do livestock and then vets who do house pets...

I admire your courage in leaving BM...and helping others to do the same, the fact that you have had up close and personal experiences with him gives credence to your words.

Me, I just worshiped a picutre from afar, never met the guy except to kiss his toes a few times, to surrender your life to someone you never met seems really dumb to me now
Take care
Helen
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:13:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Surrendering to someone
Message:
to surrender your life to someone you never met seems really dumb to me now

surrender your life to someone you 'think' you know (and doesn't care for you) seems equally dumb to me!

We're at the same place.

Why surrender to anyone after all?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:19:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Surrender Dorothy
Message:
Surrender --the idea--always scared me when I was a premie cause I knew what it really meant: something creepy, like coming back in the next life as a fly.
I would never surrender to another person again. There are times when giving up control is not a bad thing, IMO. Hey I learned that serenity prayer :
God grant me the serenity to change the things I can and the wisdom to know what I can't change, however it goes. I think the good kind of surrender happened when we all had enough and left the guru and said 'man, forget this'
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 20:49:58 (EST)
From: NIL
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: STOP PLEASE!
Message:
WHY DON'T YOU STOP YOUR FUCKING WHINING AND TAKE REPSONSIBILITY FOR THE DECISIONS THAT YOU MADE IN YOUR LIFE!!! YOUR A GROWN MAN... WHY DON'T YOU STOPM ACTING LIKE SUCH A PUSSY!?
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 21:13:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: NIL
Subject: Get a grip
Message:
Now that was rude, Nil. What is wrong with you? Jean-Michel and I were having a conversation and you just butt in and yelled at him.
JM was an initiator with Maharaji so I think he knows what he's talking about. If he can't talk about it here with us, who can he talk about it with? That's why this forum is here.
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 04:04:52 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: NIL
Subject: NIL IDIOT
Message:
You've surrendered your mind to the wrong person, and now you're making such a fool of yourself!

Who are you to interpret my dreams? Even my psychoanalyst wouln't have done this!
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 07:08:14 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Helen, Jean-Marie, Happy,
Subject: Dreaming the way out
Message:
Dreams! I've been dreaming about MJ, premies, and where I'm at with them for years. At least every few nights.

For a long time after I started to have doubts and considered leaving MJ I had dreams of being rejected by premies for my 'negative' thoughts (was pretty much what was happening in real life, although of course no one said so directly). It was awful - I would want to be part of a program or whatever, and couldn't get in. And I would try to EXPLAIN to the premies.... who just figured I was in my head. Really they were nightmares - sometimes woke me up.

Around the time I found the forum I had a dream that SOMEONE ELSE was with me while I tried to explain. Was such an amazing feeling in that dream. I wasn't alone any more!

Lately I've been having dreams where I'm at programs, or someplace where premies are doing service, and I'm aware that I'm no longer one of the gang. And that I don't want to be pulled back in. I know that I won't be understood. I don't try to explain. I know I can't stay - that to be true to my understanding I can't continue to be there. Haven't got to the point of tossing Mj away. Maybe that's linked to my softer-than-most line on the 'fraud' question....

Dreams are pretty incredible, I reckon. The way your unconscious mind can put together a story using the symbols that are just right - personal to you and spot on in making the point. I was really into looking at my dreams at one time - was part of the departure process. Haven't done it so much lately.

It's funny that dreams once supported me to be with MJ - I had my share of darshan dreams, and they were powerful, very loving etc. And that they are now supporting the move away. Maybe they're not such a cool guide after all. I dunno.

Love, Diz
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:24:38 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
JM thats wild!
What a dream. Putting him to sleep, that is funny.
I understand what you are saying about his old grip on us.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 06:43:07 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk
To: Happy
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
Hi there Happy,

Obviously everyone has their own spin on this phrase, but I have always assumed that the bathwater is the chubby one and the baby is the spiritual knowledge which he claimed to be able to give.

Some of us here, whilst recognising that the courier did not deliver, nevertheless hope or believe that the parcel exists and that it may arrive one day.

In other words.....ahh hell. why can't I talk without a metaphor...Listen, just because the fat guy talked crap does not necessarily mean that what he talked about was crap!

When we discovered, each in our own painful way, that M was lying and cheating, the natural course was to reject him and everything he stood for. However, for some of us, that left us right back where we were before coming across M. i.e. in many cases basically unhappy and looking for fulfillment. Hence the debate.

For me, M was a kind of last gasp at believing that somebody else, anybody else, could solve my personal riddle or illuminate my personal darkness. Particularly any form of organised worship, prayer or what have you.

However, life is not quite as simple as that. There are many things which I have come across through my involvment with M that I have found useful and rewarding; meditation as a tool, honesty as a default position and a recognition of the true equality of all human beings. I will not reject these things since they are useful to my survival and are true despite M.

But it is important to separate M from these things, and you may have others, because he laid claim to them as his own to give, which they were not. There are many premies who are afraid to reject M because they believe they will lose all of these things and he has constantly said as much.

I reject M but I still use meditation for myself: and it works.
I reject M but I still see the world differently because of my experiences.
I reject M but I will not reject all the good that I have discovered in myself and those around me.

I shall not be replacing M with anyone or anything else. That much I have learned.

regards

Richard
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:12:06 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
I read a very interesting article which was posted here last week. It was an excerpt from a book and it was describing and explaining how to do basic breath meditation. I liked the article because it didn't mention anything spiritual or Eastern or Hindu or any of that bullshit.

The problem is that most ex-premies have been put off ever doing meditation because of all the crap that has been associated with it by Maharaji and the general Hindu stuff. You know, detatchment, spirituality, devotion, God, karma etc etc. I find such stuff completely repulsive now and I know a lot of other ex-premies do to.

Two years ago, when I was beginning to realise that M was a fraud but still not certain about it, I had a near darshan dream! In the dream I was standing in a darshan line and was walking towards Maharaji's blue tunnel. Suddenly I thought that I couldn't go through the darshan line because of all the things I had posted on the net against Maharaji. I felt an incredible sense of loss and sadness and I woke up feeling very emotional. Later on that day I began to accept that Maharaji really wasn't the Lord and the darshan lines were just staged events. He was not God that I had bowed down before in darshan lines but an ordinary man. The fixation that Maharaji was God began to slowly disappear.

That was the last time I felt any hint of a supposed connection to the Lord/devotee relationship. It had never been a real relationship but had been a fantasy and projection. That was a hard one to swallow. But I no longer felt sad about not being able to go through a darshan line again. He wasn't God and all that I had stored in my heart about him for 25 years vanished like a morning mist.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:52:07 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
He wasn't God and all that I had stored in my heart about him for 25 years vanished like a morning mist.

Amen to that Sir David.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:54:28 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
Yes! Amen to that.

H.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:36:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
This is turning into a thread about dreams about Maharaji. Sounds like your dream helped you deal with the loss.

and that was important for you to move on...
Man, I love dreams

I had to euthenize my dog of 11 years over the summer, a husky shepherd who was like a son to me. It was really traumatic for me. This past weekend I had a dream that he was alive but had horrible large open sores all over his body and infected eyes. I was seeing the cancer he had but on the outside of his body. This dream helped me realize just how much pain he was in and that having him put to sleep was the right thing. I cried seeing him again but it also helped me accept what happened. He was probably grateful to be released from his pain ( the cancer was inoperable)
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:02:16 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
Thanks for your thoughts, Richard. I'm still not clear about what the baby is for me. I do meditate, though, and I enjoy it, but so I did before M, so luckily, it was easy for me not to attribute that to him. But yes, surely, I'm bringing something along with me on the road.

H.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:11:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Babies and Crap
Message:
Richard:

So nice to hear from you again. I always enjoyed your posts in the past and it's great to see them again. I wondered about a couple of the things you said.

There are many things which I have come across through my involvment with M that I have found useful and rewarding; meditation as a tool, honesty as a default position and a recognition of the true equality of all human beings.

I know that meditation is considered a valuable tool for some ex-premies. It isn't for me, but I wondered if you are saying that you learned 'honesty' and recognition of the 'equality of human beings' from Maharaji or the cult. I found that honesty was on the things lacking in the premie kingdom, as we were mostly pressured to be dishonest to ourselves and others about the experience we were having, and certainly to discount anything that didn't meet the then-current cult dogma.

I would say, though, that I may have learned about honesty the hard way, by realizing at one point how dishonest I was being to myself, and how I couldn't live in the cult anymore because self-deception is pretty much required. Once you stop the self-deception, it's really over as far as the cult is concerned. You can't go back without re-entering an obviously dishonest world.

Regarding the equality of all people, Maharaji and the mahatmas certainly held themselves as superior to the rest of us, as did a good number of premies, either because they were considered 'spiritually high,' or because they had some kind of special connection to Maharaji. And of course I never heard Maharaji ever talk about either honesty or equality as important qualities.

Listen, just because the fat guy talked crap does not necessarily mean that what he talked about was crap!

I can't say that everything M talked about was crap, but a large percentage of it was and is. In addition to the perfect master, lord of the universe, dedicate-your-life-to-me bullshit, other 'crap' included the idea that your own mind, and the world, were out to get you, that family and friends were to be discounted and were perhaps dangerous to you, that ambition in the world was a negative thing, that you shouldn't trust your own thought processes and certainly shouldn't doubt or judge your own experience, that humans are insignificant pieces of dust unworthy of contact with fat boy, that premies are different and more 'lucky' that the rest of the people in the world, that you should have 'faith' and accept things on 'faith,' etc, etc, etc. In fact, when I think about it, very little of what Maharaji said or still says ISN'T crap.

[By the way, the Indian Mahatmas were really racist -- I think I told the story of Padarthanand's racism.]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:12:27 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Babies and Crap
Message:
Hi JW,

It's nice to be talking again.

I wondered if you are saying that you learned 'honesty' and recognition of the 'equality of human beings' from Maharaji or the cult

You've hit the nail on the head JW. Although M spoke about these things, he never actually practised them. I learned about them by not doing them and living with the consequences.

So I suppose you could say that I learned during my period with M rather than from him or the cult. None the less it was a part of the experience and was probably the lynch-pin in my failure to reconcile the message with reality.

I can't say that everything M talked about was crap, but a large percentage of it was and is.

I hear what you say JW and I agree, but I was trying to untangle the Baby and Bathwater concept. If I take the view that everything M said was crap merely because he said it, then I may be tempted to believe everything someone else says, my wife for instance, merely because I love them. Neither is satisfactory and what is called for is some analytical thinking, something sadly lacking in me at the time.

regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:34:31 (EST)
From: You should look at
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: his old talks and see.
Message:
He said nothing of value.
It was all nuts and not useful and it was about him and
doing satsang service and meditation.
When he did comment about yourlife it was to be negative
about your natural relationships and families and having
any life or thing of your own.
Thsi universe was his and youwere his servant.
You have forgotten.

Really.

It is there to read. No need to have a fantasy about his
past words. It was hindu guru trap words.
Any self help book was a million times better.
Bill
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Date: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 03:21:28 (EST)
From: y?
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Babies and bathwater....
Message:
Richard,

Going inside, which isn't dependent on m is what makes us feel true equality.

Observing m externally I see just the opposite to this phenomenen.

I see Indian Hierachy carried over to the west when I observe M, instructors, pams and lesser premies in action. I also observe many, in an attempt to not drown through lack of power, inflicting pathetic little power trips on others.

So much for equality and inner strength!

Sometimes I wonder if M goes inside. He doesn't seem to practice what he preaches - like many other Indian Gurus.
Positions of power can be dangerous stuff in the wrong hands.
And such a waste of time for the powerless.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:18:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
WOW, what a great dream. So clear!! Nothing wrong with your noggin.
The piece I got out of it was the lessons I learned from going through the ordeal, lessons like 'don't trust a religion that is narcissistic in nature' and 'trust yourself'. Plus I like the meditation.

The rest has no value for me whatsover. Except that there are some crazy stories to tell
(:

I think that as a religion or spiritual path, K is a very poor one.That is why I react so much when people say 'why are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater' . The whole trip, baby and bathwater, was flawed from the beginning, so it did have to break into a million pieces (be dissected and analyzed) in order for one to find anything of value out of it. Taken as a whole the trip is very dangerous, IMO. The symbol of the plate in your dream is interesting because it has to do with eating...K & GM were something we ate without question and without digesting (as Brian once said). It's cool that your symbol for K was a plate.

Helen
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:35:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Happy,

I always thought of the bathwater to be Maharaji and whatever devotion you had to him, and the baby being the meditation which can be practiced separate from that. But for me, the two are so interconnected that I can't fathom practicing the techniques as an ex. The concept that these techniques were placed in Maharaji's loving care, by God, to be imparted to those with a guiless heart thirsty for knowledge of God is so indelibly imprinted on my mind that I can never separate the two. I could never practice Knowledge as if they were four simple meditation techniques. To me this Knowledge has always been the key to God realization, which now I see is bullshit. These techniques have never served any other purpose in my life but that, so now they serve no purpose at all.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:35 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jerry & Helen
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Jerry, for me again, the experience of meditation as such is
not connected to M. I can easily separate them. Whatever I experience(d) came from within me, myself. I think this is important. When people fainted in the darshan line, it came from themselves. It wasn't Prem Pal who did it. And, we do not need him at all, to have experiences. He made us believe that we need him.

But then again, I've also started questioning the whole issue of 'trying to get high' by practising meditation, K, or anything else, as if it'd have an intrinsic value in itself.
This is one of tricky things with Hinduism: the focus easily gets narcissistic. For me, I don't consider it spiritual to feel 'high' or blissed out. Much more important is to feel compassion for other people, and to do something real, to make things better in the world. Getting high has nothing to do with it. It may, in fact, become a distraction, as I think it has for premies.

Still, I admit that I do practise meditation/yoga (not exactly like M teaches, but in my own way), a little, but regularly, because I enjoy it and it makes me feel more sharp and alert. But, no nirvana or samadhi for me, no sir! It's a trap. I have a quite materialistic, practical view on meditation.

'There is no Jesus coming down from the sky, now that I found out, I know I can cry', I think John Lennon said. And there is no guru worth following. I've seen several, some I liked better, some less, but none worth following. That's one important lesson Prem Pal helped me to learn. Pity I had to go through it all to find out!

With respect to my dream, I haven't been able to define the 'babý', i.e. the part of the broken plate I put into my pocket. Perhaps it's better that way, perhaps it doesn't need definition. I liked your interpretation of the symbol of the plate, Helen.

H.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:03:36 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Maybe, like me, the lesson you learned about compassion vs. narcissism is the part of the 'plate' you will retain. I am grateful for that lesson.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:51:39 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'grateful for that lesson'
Message:
Dont's say you feel gratitude...
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:11:25 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: 'grateful for that lesson'
Message:
I'm just sooooo grateful and I'm experiencing sooooomuch!
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:13:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Happy,

I've practiced other forms of meditation that had no strings attached to them and found them to be mildy enjoyable, but I've never had a profound experience in meditation that I can think of. At best, meditation clears my head and fills me with a sense of serenity... sometimes. But K, whoa! Clearing cobwebs and busting stress isn't what we're talking about here. The promise of K is (or was) that it is a direct channel to God, THE means to God realization. I will always associate Knowledge with that, even if it doesn't work that way, irregardless if M has anything to do with it or not. Since there is such a strong identification with Knowledge to God, it would be impossible for me to lower my expectations of it, and I will always associate it with having come from Maharaji, a guy I'm a little pissed off at these days. As far as I'm concerned, even it isn't M's 'gift' to give, I did get it from him, and that's reason enough not to practice it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:23:54 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
See your point!
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 19:46:05 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: Happy
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
For me, the baby is me. It has taken a while for me to value myself and not punish myself further for my mistake with getting together with the BM.

One of the ways this has challenged me is NOT become learning disfunctional. This means trying to stay open to possibilities of learning.

My tendency when I first left the BM was firstly to find myself doing similar types of things - Herballife, Amway etc. These had the mindlessness, the group experience, the promise of things to come, inner and outer groups, an agreed value system (money is good) and powerful emotional feelings.

The second tendency was to write off the possibility of learning from anyone. Like I wasn't going to ever trust another person to teach me anything again. Cynicism and scepticism was going to be my mainstay.

Since then I have salvaged scepticism and ditched cynacism and have found an improved ability to learn from many many other people. And not always to learn what they are trying to teach.

So I think I have managed to keep some of the baby, me, and in the process by relfecting on my experiences with the BM to make some useful learnings from my life that will assist me now and in the future.

I sem to hear many of you coming to similar conclusions. It is most supportive.

Cheers

Peter Howie

PS When I first began to try and learn from my experiences with GMJ et al, I put this forward in a group at an international conference and was roundly supported by an ex-Jesuit who was only coming to the same conclusion some 30 years after leaving the order.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:00:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Great post. A good reminder for me that we can still learn and grow and not become paralyzed due to the bad experience
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 07:17:15 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Helen &Peter Howie
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
I agree with Helen. A truly great post. The baby is - me.
And how important not to get stuck in cynicism, and to
realize that we still can learn from others. I guess that is
an area where I still have wounds. Thanks for the insight.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 16:58:46 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
Helen:

My feeling as that if there's a baby in the water there's probably a lot of other unmentionable stuff in there too. My advice: Flush, but don't drink.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:07:35 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Baby in the bathwater?
Message:
HA HA--you don't know the half of it Scott. I was a preschool teacher for 7 years. One morning at circle time a little girl held out her hand and said 'Teacher, what should I do with this?' It was a BM!!

pee pee and poo poo are a huge part of the preschool curriculum let me tell you!
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 06:47:06 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Reclaiming the baby?
Message:
Hi Jerry

I can relate to what you say about meditation and MJ being so closely bound up that you can't imagine that particular baby out of the bath. For me it isn't much of problem at an intellectual level, but the baby-bathwater connection is still very solidly there someplace deep down: when I realise that I'm conscious of Holy Name or whatever you want to call it, too often the old fear locks in. It doesn't even need a thought pattern, although I think the thought sequence between the experience of meditation and the fear goes something like: this K belong to MJ; I should be grateful to MJ; OH FUCK I don't want to get into all that crap again!!!

The result is, I don't formally meditate at present. Though I do just find myself tuned in quite often - remember I had over 20 years of this and before the fear got conditioned in, I really got a lot out of it.

It struck me the other day that at some level I STILL BELIEVE MJ OWNS THAT PART OF ME! If I'm 'stuck', I think that's where the stuckness is.

Still, I agree with Happy and Helen that the last thing I, or human society in general, needs is more renunciate, self-centred, 'get high' spirituality. However I don't know that that means NO room for taking time out to indulge in a high of some kind. Well, maybe a couple of bottles of wine is a better way to fly. For me right now, it probably is. But sometime, I think I'd like to find a non-MJ way to meditate. If I accept that Mj and meditation are inextricably entwined, in a way that's letting MJ win, it's accepting that he really does own that part of me, and the only way out is to cut that part off. Think I'd rather reclaim it. Somehow, some day.

Won't be with another guru, though. I've had enough of following a guru for one lifetime.

'scuse the rave. This is an area I'm still sorting out. Probably don't sound too coherent...

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:35:25 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Happy
Subject: Throw the baby away too.
Message:
Hi Happy,

As my premie conditioning has been unravelling, I've come to realise that believing Maharaji's Knowledge is 'knowledge of the soul', 'god within' 'the Holy Name of God' etc is on the same level as believing Maharaji is God incarnate.

Maybe God is within us, but I no longer believe that watching patterns, listening to falling wax, breathing, and licking snot is an experience of the creator.

I'm no longer bothered about experiencing the creator. I believe we're all bits of the creator anyway, and if we want to have a face to face meeting, we've got one booked on the day of our death.

What's the big hurry?

AJW
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:03:37 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Phase II
Message:
This is tongue-in-cheek:

PHASE II COMMANDMENTS

1. Your bank account is not your own. Surrender it to Satguru. This is the only way you have of keeping in touch with your master. He will personally handle your money.

2. Never delay in attending the brainwashing sessions three times per week. For a treat, I will occasionally produce satellite programs. This will give you the illusion of being with me live. You will have to practise making the edges of the screen disappear. I will produce a few new videos per year. These videos will be spliced and spliced to create hundreds of $25 videos. You will keep saying, 'Haven't we seen this before.' A more devoted person than you will assure you that this is a new video with excerpts from old videos. Of course, this doesn't matter because the message is ALWAYS THE SAME.

3. Do not send gifts to the master. They are difficult to transport and declare at customs. An exception will be made for fine French Cognac. It is preferable that you bring this true spirit with you to international events.

4. Never delay in practising those mind-numbing, techniques I have shown you. They help to use up your time so you won't be tempted to engage in worldly activities. These worldly activities cost money. I need all your money.

5. Do not entertain friends. You never know when they will become ex-pwks. If you do indulge in these false friendships, you run the risk of become an ex-prick yourself.

6. Have one of my pictures (preferably a full-body shot of me dressed in my mala costume, holding a flute I cannot play) blown up to life size. This will make it easier for you to obsess about me as the decades roll by. This will be as good as it gets. I am now busy pursuing my own interests.

7. Always have faith in the American dream. Look at what it has done for me. I have gold toilets. Even though slavery has been abolished over a hundred years ago, I am proud to say that I have a stock of thousands of slaves.

8. Always have faith in the concept of God. I have milked this idea for many rewards.

9. Never delay in recruiting new cult members. If you want another live program in your lifetime, many new premies are needed. It costs money.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:06:19 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Phase II
Message:
Very good Gail -- I'm sure EV is in the process of printing up the commandments to give out at every knowledge session.

By the way, do you recall when the original 5 commandments were abandoned? And do you or anyone recall what was said about why that was done, or any discussion of the ability of Maharaji to 'undo' commandments? Didn't that appear very weird to a lot of the premies?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:38:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Phase II
Message:
It seems that they slowly faded away like so many things. Nothing really in your face so that you could say BOY HAVE THINGS CHANGED. M reminded us of our original vows in 1987 at the Rejoice programs when he reduced the requirements to practising 2 hours per day minimum & no snacking.

After M started giving K himself the new commandments for K-lite were:

Don't reveal the techniques to anyone.
Give K a fair chance.
Keep in touch.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:56:52 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Phase II
Message:
I remember at a program in Brighton, UK, around the mid 80's, M talked about the old commandments, and tried to justify the change by saying it wasn't really a change. It didn't logically wash, but of course many of us wanted to follow, and so we let it go.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 16:32:48 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Phase II
Message:
I remember justifying the changes by quoting scripture, something to the effect 'You must become all things to all men'. I figured Maharaji was just changing with the times so he could still get Knowledge across, that he had no choice in the matter, and that, in fact, it was wise of him to be able to change with the times. Now, if I felt that there really was something to this Knowledge and you had to deal with people on their own turf to get your message across, I would still believe that Maharaji made a wise move by changing his act. Unfortunately, I think the real motivation for changing his stripes was to increase capital. I think the closing of the ashrams is glaring proof of that. It stands out as being Big M's Big Mistake. Anybody without their blinders on has got to see that there just was no justifying the crude manner in which he closed the ashrams. They were simply an expense he didn't want to be bothered with anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 03:11:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: They're not!
Message:
I even own a copy of some Indian magazine of the 90s where there printed on the 2nd page.

Unless k is not the same in India, I sometimes wondered!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:29:04 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: They're not in India and
Message:
other places where ashrams jive with the culture. He's still the LOTU over there as well.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 22:30:42 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Oops, they are in India and
Message:
other places
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:14:52 (EST)
From: IronBear-Jon
Email: ironbear-jon@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
Hi Everyone,

IronBear here again. I created quite a lot of interest I see. I read through the messages with a great deal of interest as well. To whomever it was that suggested I am a plant.. I'm not. I'm a 49y/o ex-premie currently living in Mesa, Az. I do day trading in the stock market and real estate investing for a living. The rest of the time I teach meditation and spiritual development classes, and do energy work as a spiritual healer. I'm also in the process of developing a web page dedicated to improving the world through collective effort by using visualization, prayer, and meditation to heighten the collective unconscious of mankind and heal the earth as well. If you want my phone number and address I'll give it to you also.

The main point that I was trying to get across in my last message, which many got, was that we grow in life or we stay stuck in the past.. and it's entirely our choice. We can focus our energies on people or things that haven't worked out and stay stuck in what I call a 'victim consciousness', or we can move ahead and leave it all behind. If you think M's a fraud then say so if you must.. I'm not here to tell you otherwise.. but what are you doing with your spiritual life at the same time? Are you still moving ahead? That's why I asked the question in the title.. 'Still Meditating?' The main reason I emphasize that point is because when you move on and grow spiritually.. your perspective on things changes pretty dramatically.. mine certainly has.

I've come to realize through years of experience that we all create our own reality on this planet, and what we focus our energies on becomes real in our lives. Jesus mentioned that when he said 'What you think.. you become'(slightly paraphrased, but you get the point). :-) For example.. have you ever really wanted something.. and then a few weeks or months later the exact thing you wanted showed up.. at a price you could afford, or maybe even for free? It happens to me all the time because I know it will if I want it to. It doesn't matter if it's a thing, a person, business opportunity, or an answer to a burning spiritual question that I may have, I put out the energy and prayer.. and the answer shows up in due time.

This is a major reason for our existence. We're supposed to be realizing our personal power.. ie.. that we are all part of God.. and stop giving that power away to people like M, or anyone else. It works the same way with spiritual growth. If you truly want to attain Nirvana and the highest realization of yourself.. then ask Creator for that. You don't necessarily need a guru to take you there. Ask every day to be brought into the light.. and it will happen. Teachers will spring up out of the woodwork if you need one.. all you have to do is ask, (and Creator uses some interesting people and things to teach us.. believe me!). Many times though, answers will come from right within yourself, which is wonderfully empowering! M just happened to be one of my many teachers. I think I mentioned that when I was a premie.. I never believed that he was the Lord of the Universe.. or the Second Coming or anything BUT a teacher that God wanted me to be involved with for a time, and it served me VERY well.

The fact is that any spiritual gifts he or other teachers have, you and I can have too. All it takes is meditation and a sincere desire. If we all would approach God with an open heart and have the discipline to seek out WHO WE ARE on a daily basis our lives would change forever.. and this world would change dramatically as well. Cultural and ethnic boundaries would fall because everyone would know we are all the same. Profit taking at the expense of others would cease.. because if you hurt one, you hurt yourself. War would end for the same reason. I can imagine such a world.. can you?

So if you're at all attuned to this message.. I would suggest a few books.. and a lot of meditation and prayer. I highly recommend the 'Conversations with God' trilogy by Neale Donald Walsh. He's written some of the best works ever on self empowerment and creating a better model of living for all of humanity. Very highly recommended. I honestly think he's really tuned in to, and talking with God in these writings. Remember tho.. don't make him another guru.. he's a writer only. Take what works for you.. and leave the rest.

The other is a book by Susan Shumsky called 'Divine Revelation'. She'll teach you how to get in touch with your spiritual teachers within.. guides, guardian angels, or people who have passed over from your family. It works.. and it's real.. and it will make YOU a very good channel. I mentioned last time that I get a lot of my business and life guidance from within.. this book gave me the tools to refine the process and do it better than I could previously. The original ability came from meditating by the way.

This is a little off the subject.. but for the person who thought my name was interesting.. it was given to me by Brother Eagle Soaring.. a Native American spiritual teacher who lives here in Arizona. He was once partners with Sun Bear, who was one of the first people to share Native American spiritual teachings with non-natives. Eagle Soaring also spoke before the United Nations a couple of years ago on Native American spirituality. Neat guy.

So.. many blessings to everyone. I sincerely hope you all are attaining the joy and love that you deserve in your lives.

Namaste'
IronBear-Jon
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:52:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
I've come to realize through years of experience that we all create our own reality on this planet, and what we focus our energies on becomes real in our lives.

Perhaps I don't understand you completely here, but if I take this sentence literally, I can only say that in my experience this is utter nonsense. [I also have to say, that I am always very suspect when someone refers to the world as 'the planet.' It just sets off red flags in my brain.]

Did someone who was picked up by the Nazis and murdered in a concentration camp create his or her own reality?

Did the child who got born with AIDS cause his or her own reality?

Did I cause the reality of being able to live in a wealthy country, that I have good health and enough to eat? Or am I just lucky?

Now, I know you can have a terrible 'reality' and try to focus on something positive, and that might help you get through it better, but that doesn't change the reality. Nor does it 'create' any reality either.

By the way, this is the basic philosophy of EST and Lifespring and a lot of other new-age cults, and I think it'just a radically conservative idea, based on individualism run rampant.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:59:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
Iron Guy:

I don't mean to be disrespectfull and doubtless my last post did. I think you are allowed to believe whatever you want to, and if it works for you, great. I'm just skeptical of you pronouncing some kind of world order or view of the way things work. I my experience, things don't work like that. And I'm a very happy person.

For example.. have you ever really wanted something.. and then a few weeks or months later the exact thing you wanted showed up.. at a price you could afford, or maybe even for free?

Well, I've REALLY WANTED to win the lottery, but it hasn't happened yet, so, no, I can't say this has happened to me.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:36:10 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW/IBJ
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
IBJ, something about your post sends off red flags for me, too. I saw this healer for a few sessions that had your philosophy and it wasn't for me. . I was really turned off by him because he thought every obstacle in our lives was created by our thoughts. I really don't believe that and think that that is actually infantile thinking. The infant sees himself as the center of the universe, but as we mature we hopefully 'decenter' and see that we are part of a human community, and that sometimes bad shit happens to people for no reason.
That book 'Conversations With God' really turned me off too when the author said that Nazi Germany was some kind of collective planetary karma we all had to go through. I disagree vehemently with that.
I'm not opposed to healing at all, I've worked with a lot of healers who have helped me tremendously, but I don't think it's helpful to tell people they are creating everything that happens to them--that can actually keep people stuck in a very self-centered and infantile stage of development in my opinion. The therapists and healers who have helped me most are the ones who have helped me see that some of the shit that happened to me had nothing to do with me whatsover--it was just the luck of the draw.

Just one opinion

Helen
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 19:39:23 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
Couldn't agree more JW & Helen, but think you are being way too polite.

Gonna keep this post short before I explode, that kind of thinking is so offensive it's verging on new age fascism.

It also works in exactly the same way as the director of the family firm we all know and love so much, by generalising universal laws from what are individual experiences, invalidating any value that there might be in those individual experiences, total spiritual arrogance & very dangerous.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:15:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: deep thoughts (;
Message:
Hey hammie, how are you?
Well, I have had a lot of experience with people w/ IBJ's philosophy. What he is espousing is a very popular viewpoint today. Some of what he says does have validity of course. All of us (or many of us) have agonized in therapy about why we fall into the same traps over and over again in jobs, relationships, etc. In a sense we do 'create' certain things by not being aware of how we contribute to the negative thing. We all have some power to heal ourselves in this sense, through our awareness of patterns.
Some things we don't have any power over but can try to have a good attitude about . To use a specific example, a old high school teacher of mine got polio and changed his career track from apple farmer to teacher. He still farms in his retirement, driving a tractor with hand controls and crawling around on the ground. He works out and is very strong!! But to say that he created his polio??? Ludicrous.

Then there are things we absolutely have no control over whatsoever like being born with AIDS, being born into abject poverty, etc. How can that be someone's creation? Maybe IBJ can further elucidate us.

The Judeo Christian idea of grace is very different from the new age idea of being a co-creator with God & being able to manifest stuff. I've hung out with so many people from so many spiritual paths and I've seen a lot of people manifesting energy, stuff, etc. I think there is some truth to the idea that people can use energy to manifest stuff. But I don't know to what end, and I've seen a lot of folks get caught up into spiritual phenomena, & get side tracked by it, losing touch with the logical side of life. Or they can get big egos thinking they are so spiritual. But I guess I would like to contribute to positive energy on this earth through prayer, etc, as much as the next person

See ya
Helen
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:48:41 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: more thoughts(OT)
Message:
Hamzen, Isn;t this exactly what we were talking about in the visavi when I used the words 'your choice'?
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 04:31:38 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Iron bear
Subject: look here sir
Message:
Your post above is wierd. I have not read the replies but give me a break.
You talk like all that stuff is new and that we should take note.
Ye gods. If we hadnt got most of all that like a decade ago , we would be in bad shape.
If you are really 49 years old you surprise me. Sounds like mid life wake up call with the alarm stuck on ON.
The law of syncronicity is hardly something that one needs to be schooled at. Thats why it is the law of syncroniicty.
Sound alot like satsang that gives one the creeps.
As for the victim consciousness, well this is an ex-premie forum.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 05:58:43 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: No Ironmonger, No
Message:
Please correct me if I m wrong...

you start by quoting Jesus as saying 'What you think.. you become' (it is not in the Bible I keep at home!!!) to say that whatever we focus our energies on becomes real in our lives and hence we have a “victim consciousness” due to we focusing in something which hasn't worked out for us and because of this we are not growing in life and stay stuck in the past...that we can move ahead(moving ahead? ) and leave it all behind because M just happens to be one of many teachers. ...so just take what works.... and leave the rest...ask Creator to let us attain Nirvana and the highest realization of ourselves...ask every day to be brought into the light ....

allow me please, allow me:

Stephen Hawkings, an authority in Modern Physics, firmly believes that one of the basic principles of the Universe is that time travels only forward and that it would be impossible for time to travel backwards and that in the unlikely event that it did you would see things which had broken before come back together again before you very eyes...notwithstanding this the Laws of Physics don’t necessarily hold inside... Black Holes.

Therefore it is physically impossible to stay stuck in the past. Furthermore, one of the implications of what Mr. Hawkins says is that, for example, once a glass is broken the only thing you can do about it is to pick up the pieces and either use glue, discard it or may be remelt it and make a new one...

No Ironmonger, No...M has made too many people brake too many valuable things, the most important thing which M makes you break is precisely time, for the sake of Nirvana and the highest realization of the self (slightly paraphrased, but you get the point). :-) we give our irrecoverable time to him: “ The Teacher” while his mind is mainly focused, not in Nirvana but only in the ancient mundane objective of achieving economic prosperity for himself...fullstop.

No Ironmonger we do not have a victim conciousness, we just have a human concience, a concience which presses us to tell people not to go off a cliff for the sake spirituality. There is no sprituality in going off a cliff....

No Ironmonger, I am not going to shut-up and just forget it all, this would make me an accomplice...
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:23:13 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: No Ironmonger, No
Message:
Blanco,

Nice post :)
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:41:50 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: unmitigated crap.........
Message:
This is a very familiar scenario......

Wealthy guy with a cool name (?) and a lot of smarts (because you never really believed in Maharaji?) gives us his blessings.

Never make the mistake of equating personal success with wisdom old buddy, it's how you deal with the hard times that matters. Maybe yours are just around the corner.

Obviously you never got burned by M but that is quite normal for wealthy premies. Your message is mostly recycled 20/20 hindsight mixed up with a bit of new-age stuff and some quasi American Indian philosophy.

Like a lot of would-be gurus you have put together a basket of attractive goodies based on solid market testing. It probably goes down real well with your small coterie of middle-class, weekend hippies up there in good old Mesa. But don't make the mistake of thinking that it means zip in the real world.

As for thinking that you're a plant, do you like that? Does it give you just a little frisson. Do you think we could give a shit?

Sure I think you're a plant IB, you're a freaking petunia.

regards

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 00:33:17 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: thanks richard
Message:
IBJ stimulated a lot of great responses, but I really identified with what you said. Plus the petunia part cracked me up. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:38:11 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: You touched some nerves
Message:
I can see why many people have taken your words as being 'red flags':

I do day trading in the stock market and real estate investing for a living. The rest of the time I teach meditation and spiritual development classes, and do energy work as a spiritual healer.

Fascinating combination of sentences. I envision a yuppie who is also a self-appointed spiritual teacher and 'spiritual healer' - whatever that means. You would have to be teaching and healing the gullible who line up to be taught and healed by others. There may yet be a new page on the web devoted to another fraudulent teacher - if you're going to extract money from your 'students' as a hidden price for your services. Maharaji has made a VERY good living practicing 'spiritual gratitude' extortion after having offered 'free' service. Do you charge up-front? Have you ever noticed that all 'spiritual teachers' are self-appointed? That their 'qualifications' are measured in the number of people who buy into it? Stock traders seem to have a much more tangible way of measuring competence.

I'm also in the process of developing a web page dedicated to improving the world through collective effort by using visualization, prayer, and meditation to heighten the collective unconscious of mankind and heal the earth as well.

You have to buy into the belief that any 'collective unconscious of mankind' needs 'heightening'. There are many web pages devoted to peoples beliefs. But it takes a special kind of conceipt to believe that the world is somehow awaiting your personal encouragement when you offer this: If you want my phone number and address I'll give it to you also..

Any 'Collective effort to 'improve the world' is delusion. There's nothing wrong with the world that requires any 'psychic' intervention. I've seen Christians put together 'prayer circles' in the belief that God will hear their prayers if they just add enough collective power to them. Do you actually believe that smog will disappear or the buffalo will reappear if enough people 'visualize' it? What you're actually talking about is 'fixing' people via 'happy thoughts', and you envision yourself as a person qualified to direct the 'happy thinking' of others.

We're supposed to be realizing our personal power.. ie.. that we are all part of God.. and stop giving that power away to people like M, or anyone else.

Yet you offer your 'services' to people rather than just saying, 'desire it, ask God, and stop asking me for instruction'. You also offer a list of suggested reading (with critiques) so that people can continue to look outside themselves (to qualified authors) for their own spiritual 'instruction'. These are contradictory beliefs and behaviors.

You place a high value on Brother Eagle Soaring's gift of a name for you. The UN has been addressed by many - wise and foolish. Choose your own name in life, and stop following 'teachers' and encouraging others to follow after you.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 11:21:08 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: more thoughts
Message:
The main point that I was trying to get across in my last message, which many got, was that we grow in life or we stay stuck in the past.. and it's entirely our choice.

Jonboy, people grow and let go of things at their own pace. You can't speed that up just because you think it's a good idea to. A more compassionate, enlightend person would know this.

Be humble.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:42:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Response to IronBear
Message:
dear Iron Bear -
I think your post was sincere, and I appreciate that you are trying to give people here the benefit of your experiences, even though I don't agree with some of the things that you said. I do have some comments on your post:

The main point that I was trying to get across in my last message, which many got, was that we grow in life or we stay stuck in the past.. and it's entirely our choice. We can focus our energies on people or things that haven't worked out and stay stuck in what I call a 'victim consciousness', or we can move ahead and leave it all behind.

I think I understand where you're coming from here, but the fact is that almost all the people here are trying to get UNSTUCK from the past. You're seeing posts from people in different stages of the process. I don't think people can just 'move on' without going through anger and other so-called negative emotions. I think moving on from anything that hasn't worked out without working through exactly what happened to you results in suppression of emotions, which will come up at a future time. There are a lot of people on here who did 'move on' externally but couldn't, for whatever reason, deal with their experiences with Maharaji for many years. A lot of what you might see as 'stuckness' or 'victim consciousness' is people who are actively expressing, for the first time, their feelings about what happened to them while they were involved with Maharaji. The forum provides a lot of support for this process, and I think it's a place of healing. I see a lot of positive energy here.

As for 'victim consciousness', I know what you mean, but I don't think that most of the people on here suffer from that. I've always stuggled with an 'over-responsibility' complex - I have deep-seated negative beliefs that every bad situation I get into is my fault - that somehow I caused it because I wasn't a good enough person. It's taken me a lot of time to realize that I only need to take the blame for MY part of it, and that in some cases I really was a victim of someone else. IMHO taking ALL the responsibility is just as destructive as taking none of it.

I've come to realize through years of experience that we all create our own reality on this planet, and what we focus our energies on becomes real in our lives. Jesus mentioned that when he said 'What you think.. you become'(slightly paraphrased, but you get the point). :-) For example.. have you ever really wanted something.. and then a few weeks or months later the exact thing you wanted showed up.. at a price you could afford, or maybe even for free? It happens to me all the time because I know it will if I want it to. It doesn't matter if it's a thing, a person, business opportunity, or an answer to a burning spiritual question that I may have, I put out the energy and prayer.. and the answer
shows up in due time.

I think the 'we create our own reality' message can be helpful in certain situations, but it can also lead to damaging and destructive attitudes. Other people who replied to your message mentioned things like the Holocaust, babies who are born with AIDS, and so forth. I know that one of the theories that explains these is that people choose these situations because they need to work through bad karma from previous lifetimes and so forth. IMHO, this answer is too easy - I guess it's a way to explain why horrible things happen to people for no apparent reason, but the attitude can create a feeling of detachment and non-caring about the suffering in the world, which leads to a lack of social responsibility.

The fact is that many innocent people in the world are thrust into terrible situations that they didn't create (wars, famine, torture, plagues, etc & on and on). I don't believe that these people somehow 'brought it on themselves', and 'created' their reality. IMHO, the only thing that these people can change is their response to what is happening to them (an example of this is in the book 'Man's Search for Meaning' by Victor Frankl). But even this isn't always possible - consider the horrible things that happen to children and animals. Many people/beings are not in a situation where they CAN realize their personal power.. ie.. that we are all part of God.. and stop giving that power away to people like M, or anyone else. They really are in someone else's power - political, parental, or otherwise.

I also think the idea of creating your own material reality has to be carefully handled. I have seen people who get into this idea start to have an entitlement problem. I don't think it's bad to believe that it is all right to have certain material things, but that belief can get way out of hand if it's not balanced by social consciousness and caring for other people.

And as far as ex-premies on this site regaining their personal power, I think it takes a lot more than just thinking positively about yourself. I think almost all of us have very deep-seated negative beliefs about ourselves that date back to childhood (unless someone had perfect parents, this tends to happen). I once worked with a NLP practitioner who said 'Most affirmations don't work because they're not true'. I believe this - I think people need to get in touch with the negative beliefs they have about themselves, and determine whether or not these beliefs are true, before they can be 'positive' or 'move on'.

One of the biggest problems that I have with Maharaji's teachings is that he reinforces these negative beliefs in a lot of people. IMHO, some of the stuff that he says is very DIS-empowering, and causes people to distrust their own thoughts and feelings. When positive things happen in their lives, they attribute it to Maharaji - if negative things happen, they attribute it to themselves or to 'the world'. I think this attitude is very destructive to self-esteem, and it also tends to foster a kind of disdain for the world that makes many (not all) premies seem immature and self-centered.

M just happened to be one of my many teachers. I think I mentioned that when I was a premie.. I never believed that he was the Lord of the Universe.. or the Second Coming or anything BUT a teacher that God wanted me to be involved with for a time, and it served me VERY well.

You are lucky that you believed this, but it is NOT what Maharaji teaches, and it's not what a lot of other people here believed. Some premies and ex-premies seem to have been able to take the beneficial parts of Maharaji's message and teachings and ignore the rest. I find this really amazing, since M was telling us NOT to do that - to only focus on him and on Knowledge, and that practicing knowledge along with devotion/gratitude to the master was the ONLY way to go. I'm not criticizing you for not believing this - I just hope you can understand that most of the rest of us swallowed the whole M trip whole.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:24:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Response to IronBear
Message:
Great post Katie. That's a good one for the 'get a life' question that people so often ask..I say it should go permanently on teh website!
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 14:54:32 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Response to IronBear
Message:
Hi Katie,
I agree with Helen, great post.
I don't think that could have been said any better.
Thanks x
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:19:58 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Response to IronBear
Message:
I really enjoyed your Post, your honest description is full with care and meaning for others....
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 20:41:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen, x, and Blanco
Subject: Thanks to Helen, x, Blanco
Message:
I'm glad you thought it was a good post. Sometimes I am not sure if I am expressing myself clearly, so I appreciate the response.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 17:41:43 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Response to IronBear
Message:
Some premies and ex-premies seem to have been able to take the beneficial parts of Maharaji's message and
teachings and ignore the rest. I find this really amazing, since M was telling us NOT to do that - to only focus on him and on
Knowledge, and that practicing knowledge along with devotion/gratitude to the master was the ONLY way to go.

Meditation got me in touch with a source of right and wrong within me that I KNEW was accurate. From that place came involuntary reactions of empathetic embarrassment when people would deify and worship GMJ, and also when they would beg him to dance. I just didn't get it. I was greatly relieved when I heard GMJ answer Tom Snyder on the Tomorrow Show (after Snyder asked him if it was true what his followers was saying - that GMJ was God) by saying: 'No I am not God, but a humble servant of God.' I don't think GMJ was encouraging that belief because the way that I heard about it was through a 'secret' piece of paper that was being passed around that claimed it. I remember my reaction was: 'Well everything has sounded good up until now. But I just can't buy what's on this paper and still feel honest with that center within me that meditation had gotten me strongly in touch with'.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 21:01:04 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: Response to Dennis
Message:
Hi Dennis -
As I said to Iron Bear, you are lucky that you didn't believe that Maharaji was god, or the Perfect Master, or Satguru. I don't know if I actually believed he was god incarnate, but I did believe he was the Perfect Master for this age. I have heard a number of premies and exes say that they didn't ever actually believe that Maharaji was the Perfect Master, but I don't think this was the view of most premies (at least back in the seventies and early eighties).

I do believe that Maharaji promoted himself as a person to be worshipped. He gave darshan, we kissed his feet, we pranamed to him and to his pictures, we sang Arti to him. (This whole subject is a hot topic on this site, BTW.) If you didn't believe that because it contradicted your inner experience, then that's good. But I hope you can understand that the rest of us did not feel that way, and that we did believe it.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 00:51:25 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Response to Dennis
Message:
Katie,
Hi! How much of accepting these views of GMJ do you think might have been influenced by peer pressure? That is, premies were finding a sense of belonging to something that was better than the unnatural spiritual system of 'the world' together, and perhaps tried to take on beliefs that might have been contrary to the deepest parts of their heart for the sake of not jeopardizing the feeling a oneness with those around them. And like you said, there were physical actions that supported this, like darshan. I always enjoyed darshan just as an opportunity to get super high with a human being as opposed to the compromising interactions we'd become numb to.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:10:19 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: Response to Propaganda
Message:
If some top guy in a cocaine cartel says, 'I never encouraged anyone to take cocaine', he may be technically telling the truth, but if he's moving massive amounts of product which which is used by tens or hundreds of thousands of people at a tremendous financial profit, isn't he a hypocrite?

This is where people liken Mirage to the Nazis, and I have to agree. Some people can technically say they didn't know about the camps, but it's BS. As a Christian, the idea of the spirit of the Law versus the letter of the Law should be primary.

The comparison with the Nazis may seem unfair to some, but I would argue that the callous disregard for human life, though not to the same degree, is really on the same scale. M is capable of sinking countries or races for his own personal benefit, even if he would stop short of genocide.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:32:20 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Response to Propaganda
Message:
You're somewhat right. All I'm doing here is trying to say that there is a safe place to move from our past wounds to. Dwelling on GMJ is only going to foster cynicism, whereas dwelling on Jesus will foster love, hope and restore faith that perfect goodness does exist somewhere in this existence. But of course you're just hearing the testimony of one person and will never know if I'm right unless you personally investigate that thread. But I'm not saying to do this via the Christian community. You've already seen what can happen if you follow a community of imperfect people. I'm saying to let the Bible show you how to open up that one on one relationship that you have with God. Then once that's solid, you can independently deal with the Christian community without fear of being conned. I also had some very bad experiences as a premie. But meditating showed me a place of perfection inside that so inspired me that I shook off the bad, licked my wounds and kept pursuing the good. And I found perfect satisfaction for that pursuit in the Bible.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 11:20:24 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: R2 R2 Propaganda
Message:
Dennis,
I have a responsibility to tell people for their benefit about what M can do to them, especially since the knowledge isn't limited to that 'teacher'. I'm not looking or asking for advice about dealing with anger, and I'm not sure that you are able to qualitatively judge my feelings from reading my posts. While M does piss me off, there's more passion than anger in expressing the point of view against him. Remember, this site really exists in order to express anger against him, although being able to commune without his greedy, selfish, and ignorant meddling is important too.

Dennis, I also think your posts above about not having the time to investigate different subjects is an inadequate response. You initiated much of the dialogue. If you are wrong, admit it, or research enough (and at your own pace) to determine if you are wrong or right. You're the one who made yourself something of an authority and recommended a book you had written. We didn't beg you to help us with these questions. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Also, why not combine some posts like I have here, instead of the overkill method. It's like sending 3 mailers to my house instead of one. It'll probably make me disdain the product.

It's a free world. These are my opinions.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 17:01:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: Proselytizing
Message:
Dennis, with all due respect, you are really jumping to some conclusions that what has worked for you will work for everyone, and that is a turn-off, I'm afraid.
The whole point of all us all leaving Maharaji is to find out what really counts for each of us. Some of us may find it through Jesus, some through science, some of us may be trying to get to a place where we love ourselves enough to not have to have any one trip with the answers...
The part of your message that I do like is to avoid the Christian community and try to find out more about the Bible on one's own. I do agree with you that the Christian right has so turned us off to the bible that many people are unfamiliar with it. But even this may not be a proirity to some folks, they might not share a fascination with studying theology and scriptures.
To assume that Jesus is the answer for everyone is offensive. As a Unitarian, I was not raised with the notion that Jesus was the son of God so I see him as a great man who has a lot to teach us. As I mentioned before I am more into the idea of one God as the Jews and Unitarians believe. I consider myself a religious person and believe in the 10 commandments, etc.
However, I have found that we live in a huge world and that all of us are different and have different beliefs and our own way to go. Why not just love people with the love that you have found instead of trying to convince them that they should believe what you believe?
I am much more impressed with Christians who just show the love that they feel through their actions and through just being good people, than by constantly talking about it
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Date: Thurs, Feb 11, 1999 at 01:21:58 (EST)
From: Dennis
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: P.S. to Katie
Message:
Katie, I've seen the folly of jumping in the way of a strain of anger catharsis at GMJ. People gave themselves to what they thought and were told was perfection, just to be disappointed one more time. And now they're angry about it (and righteously so). I guess a message that I'd like to get through here is that you can give your whole heart to Jesus and the Kingdom of God and not get burnt. And perhaps, being that we were made for this, the anger won't release until we understand how to find that peace and rest in God (the true God) in the process of fulfilling our destiny and purpose here on earth. I'm just one person trying to say, hey, I've been doing this (post-premie) for 17 years now and it just keeps getting better experientially AND intellectually.
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Date: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:04:57 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dennis
Subject: P.S. to Katie
Message:
Hello Dennis,
WHen you say the things you did about 'meditation', what are
you saying?
Have you heard something inside that you want to mention?
How about the tongue effort.
And have youseen much by looking at the back of your eyelids.
Or are you mostly into the breath?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:54:48 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
I have been reading this forum for a little while, and have also delved into the archives to sample debates in the last two years. The central question in all this appears to be how M should be viewed. Certainly, if his earlier satsangs are to be believed, then he must be the one and only current living incarnation of the the supreme being on earth. No old or new premie could interpret those satsangs in any other way, in spite of his, and mahatmas', evasive answers when asked who he was. If he is not this being, then he is a fraud, because of those earlier statements.

OK, so let's take that premise. Can we continue to view him as the supreme being, and reconcile the many changes that have taken place in his organisation since then? I certainly remember being shocked when all the commandments were changed, particularly the one about constant meditation. This was so central to the earlier belief system. However, I think it is possible to come up with a consistent view that does reconcile all this.

It goes like this:-

1. He is the incarnation of god on earth.
2. Devotion to him is the highest state attainable by a human being.
3. Devotion is attainable by following his commands.
4. He now uses the word Master to be synonymous with the incarnation of god on earth.
5. The practise of meditation/K is as M defines it at any given time.
6. His personal actions are irrelevant to the attainment of devotion.
7. Being the incarnation of god on earth does not bring with it the traditional omniscience normally associated with god.

I think this view is consistent, and premies are welcome to use it to explain their current status as students or devotees. Certainly 6 and 7 can explain away much of the evidence posted such as the failed ashram experiment and his drinking.

Of course, if K was presented this way to new people it would probably cut down propagation. But, hey, it worked for me back in 1973!

John.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:22:47 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
I think you have missed the whole point of this forum. Maybe premies are struggling with how to view M, but I don't think ex's are struggling. I mean I know I am not struggling to define M!

I know how to view him. Following M and his directions caused damage in my life, and I saw it cause damage in many people's lives. For a person to believe in M, especially after all that he has done is ridiculous, and it indicates a profound lack of self-esteem.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:38:42 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: John
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
John,

I have read many of the debates on this forum, and I think I do understand the point. I suspect maybe you have taken my suggested view of M seriously:-) If so, I apologise for not making the irony clear. Many premies do read this forum, and I have read repeatedly premies trying to justify their continuing relationship with M - just thought I would give them some 'helpful' advice!

While I'm on, I would like to thank Jim, JW, and (in earlier archives) Deena for their efforts here.

John.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:16:06 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You're too subtle for me
Message:
Yep, I did miss your irony.

The only way to view M,imho, is as god incarnate. I don't see any other way to accept his obvious shortcomings. If a premie sticks to the belief that M is the superior power in person, and he can do whatever he wants with his life and with your life, then hey! no problemo! Everything's a lila!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:02:09 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You're too subtle for me
Message:
To JHB: Your initial premise is grossly flawed. In my humble opinion, I believe in God, but I don't accept God Incarnate as a human being. Why are people looking for a savior? I think it's because they don't have the cahones to save themselves, or take responsibility for their own experiences in life. Yes I know what the Bible and other books say, but those books were written by people just like you and I. You're entitled to your interpretations/opinions just as I am, but I flat out reject the notion of a superior being come to save the world. No one is better than anyone else. A teacher can not be a teacher without students, and a master can not be a master without devotees. Extremes compliment eachother, no one is greater or lesser than anyone else. It is maharaji's devotees that make him a master, without devotees, at best, he probably would just be an airplane pilot. Jesus was a great human being, and so was buddah and the rest of them. But they came to serve, just like you and I, not to be served like Maharaji. Now, that's just the way I see things...
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 13:49:51 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
I seem eager to write today...

I don't agree on your points 6 & 7.

M. has consistently changed his message. first, he was
the one and only satguru, the Lord of the Universe, who had
come to save the world by bringing K to everybody. I think he himself believed in this.

Around 1975, he apparently stopped believing himself, not
in being the Lord incarnate, neither in his possibilities to bring
K. to everybody. So, he stopped calling himself the Satguru,
and the term became 'Perfect Master'. I remember all these explanations about 'a Perfect Master teaches perfection, like
a math teacher teaches mathematics'. Now, how can you teach
perfection if your not perfect??

Then, it suddenly was only 'Master', and that's where Prem Pal
Rawat is today. Soon, I guess, it'll be 'Teacher' or 'Guide',
or whatever. Clearly, he is not a spiritual teacher. His lifestyle
is unbelievable. His lifestyle requires $ 50.000 a day. He does
not travel anywhere if the premies can't guarantee $ 10.000
a day personally for himself, and 20.000 if he brings his family along.
I say, and I think most agree - to live like this, in a world with estimated 100 million street children in the world,
of these 40 million in Latin America and 40 million in his own
country, India - there is no excuse. He should really sell everything
and give to charity. Then I would perhaps re-evaluate
him. He is not perfect, he knows it very well himself, and there
really is no excuse.

There is his alcohol abuse, there is currency smuggling, money
collected as 'charity' when it all goes to himself - come on,
it's really unbelievable that he has any followers anymore.

When Fakiranand hit a guy in the head with a hammer, why didn't
M. turn him over to the police? What about bugging his own ashram
in London? Prem Pal's actions are full of scandals. It's a miracle
that he has not been jailed or thrown out of the US yet.

The consistent view is obvious, when one takes the blinders off
and uses common sense.

H.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:12:48 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
Happy,

Of course you don't believe points 6 & 7!!! And I really hope you didn't think I believed them. The point was to show the absurdity of believing that M is who he has claimed to be.

For myself, having been to programs from 1974 to 1998, lived in an ashram, and in the early years being very 'devoted', I never quite reconciled who he was to me. This site has helped me see that I have no relationship with him. I then thought as an intellectual exercise I would try to come up with a way a premie could logically continue to devote their lives to him. But all that came out was the absurd view in my posting.

John - (And in case it's still not clear, another Ex.)
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 18:22:56 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
OK, I think I got your point. Took awhile for me to read this far.... Nevermind.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 19:47:23 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
Wry & very droll, nothing like logical inconsistencies.
Like your humour, at the risk of offending you, very british, verging on Harry Enfield!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 14:05:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Consistent View of Maharaji
Message:
Interesting analysis, but I think the ability to process the cognitive dissonace that is rampant in Maharaji's cult, premies have to believe the following, and I think your list can be shortened to two basic points:

1. Maharaji is the god incarnate, all perfect and all-knowing, and anything he does is perfect, whether we understand it or not;

2. If you have any doubts whatsoever about anything that Maharaji does, no matter how ostensibly contradictory, unethical, stupid or bizarre, or about your own lack of the supposed 'experience,' see item 1, above.

Premies don't say this anymore, like we used to, because they don't think Maharaji wants them to, but I am convinced this is really where the active premies are at or they would be ex-premies.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:06:55 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Which explains why
Message:
95% of the current committed active premies are from the pre- 1980's period and M's events look like a hairclub for men convention. At least from the back row.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 17:20:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Which explains why
Message:
Very true. Middle aged all the way. I think it also explains why Big M can't get entirely away from the 'god-thing.' Like why he gave darshan at that program in Australia in 1997. I think he has to do that to keep the 70s crowd committed and donating. Also why had can't get new converts in the West, where divine cults are no longer in style, and he can't completely sell his trip and some kind of self-help meditation.

Zac, I guess you didn't rate front-row seating. I guess you aren't devoted enough, or don't haven't donated enough money. :)
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:17:12 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: EV Monitoring
Message:
This is about to disappear so I thought I'd bring it up top. JW closest I've been to the front row was with Lena on my lap. Back to monitoring. It's a dumb Idea. 1. Most people here want their anonimity and thus do not tell tales that would identify themselves. Those tales are waiting to be told and I am sure will be told if someone is identified. (ex. Malibu Mole does not elaborate on current rumors because he knows they could lead back to him.) 2. It will heighten premie paranoia at events to a frenzie if they try to stop people who post from attending or whatever. ex. Gail in Toronto(?) 3. What if they make a mistake? Someone flys half-way around the world to attend a program and is incorrectly identified as a persona non grata? It just keeps getting worse. No shut the computors down monitors or read on but don't imagine your serving anyone but yourself by reading here.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 20:40:55 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: EV Monitoring
Message:
I don't know - I think it could help. It might help me to understand what happened to me to attend an event or two as an ex-premie, as so far none of the few premies I still occasionally meet know I'm an ex-premie.

I'm reminded of attending one of those Amway 'Free Enterprise Works' events a few years ago. It was in a venue that had been used for a DLM/EV event a few years earlier, and I was struck by the similarity in terms of crowd reaction. At the time the alarm bells of that similarity weren't loud enough.

So maybe I'll be reporting from an event this year sometime.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 21:01:00 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Event Security
Message:
Course you know there will be roaming security looking in your eyes or at your vibe confident they can tell an ex-premie from a still programmed premie. You may be tested so be sure to practice your Jai Sat Chit Anands before attending. Actually the Jai Sat Chit Anands were pretty cool compared to the blank I don't know you stares you get now. It just sucks.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:00:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Event Security
Message:
Today's premie events sound creepy!! So noone smiles at ya when you'e walking around?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 23:15:54 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Laughing and talking at videos
Message:
I was told not to talk to anyone, tell jokes or laugh as a preamble to videos. I thought this was very disgusting but Lynn Devine assured me that this was WHAT MAHARAJI WANTS! This created a very stilted weird vibe. Before long, Lynn had a new mandate. MJ WANTS US to start talking normally at events.

Then MJ, in his wisdom, sent out a standard prerecorded music tape (new agey stuff) to play before and after each video presentation. This put the kibosh on interaction. I wonder if the tape has subliminals on it. Can you imagine:

MJ is the lord. Send him your money. MJ is the lord. Dedicate your life. You are nothing but a pwk. And so on...

BTW, IS MJ JEWISH? PERHAPS HE IS THE ANTI-CHRIST FROM THE EAST.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 07:10:06 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Laughing and talking at videos
Message:
Oh yea Gail, Forget the Local events. An autotrone robot that is manufactured to look just like a human being stands up and says 'we..will...now...watch...a...video...'click'(on comes TV) at the end the robot stands up and says'The...program....is...over...you...can...go...now...'Jesus I really don't think anyone is at the wheel of this thing. I mean if the point is money and mo'money someone's doing a piss poor job....He should hire me. I'll crank some revenue in for him. For a percentage of course, along with EV car, private office, all expenses paid, health club membership, and the all important golden parachute should things not work out the way they are planned or phase 3 comes in and I am no longer needed. Ahem.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 09:56:19 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Laughing and talking at videos
Message:
This reminds me of what Jethro said about how someone asked Maharaji if it was okay to laugh in the ashram.

In a way I think it is great because people will turn away in droves. That is just crap, crap, crap, crap.

If Maharaji were Jewish, he'd be an insult to the Jews and believe me they would disavow him in an instant because he is NOT behaving the way a Jew would!!!!! (Laughing and talking are what human beings DO, is the first thing a Jew would tell ya!!)
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:24:53 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Event Security
Message:
They actually do that Zac. They stopped me once and asked 'Are you a premie?' because I was in a rotten mood and looked it. After all a premie would just be beaming and glazed. Be sure to put that look together as you walk in.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 13:09:19 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Be happy or else
Message:
Blech! Blech! I'm allergic to that shit now. Don't you hate it when you're walking down the street and some asshole says 'Smile'.It's so intrusive. it's my right to be miserable, goddamit
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 15:15:50 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Event Security
Message:
Yeah I had a little trouble at the recent Atlantic City Program.
Two days at the casinos might have had something to do with it.
Naughty premie.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 00:17:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: EV Monitoring
Message:
Regarding monitoring, I couldn't care less! So what if a bunch of cult-members know who I am and my opinon on their cult-leader? Half of them from the 70s know exactly who I am. So what? Are they going to send bad vibes ny way? Are they going to prevent me from going to a program? OOOOooooo. Now that's a threat! One of those programs sounds about as much fun as the Nuremberg trials.

I'm really surprised they prevented Gail from going to that satellite program. I think if you went to a program like at Long Beach or something they couldn't really prevent you from entering, they would probably just have one of those goofy security guys follow you around acting paranoid.

I think the premies are monitoring just to pretend like they really have something to do, although I'm sure they have no idea why they are doing it. But hey, it's service.
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Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:01:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: EV Monitoring
Message:
If they get too goofy. I'll just start posting using the names of still programmed premies. Or better still I'll use a disguised name but tell stories that will lead snoopers back to them. Give it up BD.
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