Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 37

From: Jan 30, 1999

To: Feb 14, 1999

Page: 3 Of: 5



IronBear-Jon -:- Still Meditating? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:38:57 (EST)
__LoveJoy -:- www.enjoyinglife.org -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:47:13 (EST)
____gerry -:- anyone notice...? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:02:35 (EST)
______barney -:- anyone notice...? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 03:37:07 (EST)
__Helen -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:25:02 (EST)
__CHR -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:55:53 (EST)
____Blanco -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:28:53 (EST)
______Helen -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:44:32 (EST)
__bill -:- so you dont judge huh. -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:48:30 (EST)
____trainspotter -:- I was on drugs, too -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:19:00 (EST)
______Sam -:- I was on drugs, three -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:26:21 (EST)
________red heart -:- Knowledge and drugs don't mix -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 05:55:26 (EST)
__________ham -:- Knowledge and drugs don't mix -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:12:22 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- Big K -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:16:08 (EST)
__________mili? -:- look at your sentence -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:05:05 (EST)
______Malibu Mole -:- I was on drugs,/one foundation -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 14:12:06 (EST)
________barney -:- I was on drugs,/one foundation -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 15:44:13 (EST)
________Selene -:- I was on drugs,/one foundation -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:00:58 (EST)
________chr -:- I was on drugs,/one foundation -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:04:32 (EST)
________bb -:- question for M.M. -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:09:23 (EST)
__________MM -:- question for M.M. -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 23:57:48 (EST)
____________bill -:- question for M.M. -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:11:24 (EST)
______y? -:- I was on drugs, too -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:30:50 (EST)
____metal badger -:- tin man, steel dog, -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:38:25 (EST)
__DG -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:49:23 (EST)
__DG -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:52:57 (EST)
____y? -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:41:08 (EST)
__DG -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:59:40 (EST)
____channeling jimmie -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:21:01 (EST)
______chunneling hymie -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:47:43 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:43:41 (EST)
______Liz -:- Wearing the ring after divorce -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:48:19 (EST)
__Selene -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:04:48 (EST)
____Running Bear -:- Selene, Thanks for -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:45:06 (EST)
______peter -:- Running Bear and irons -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:07:05 (EST)
__Liz -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 20:50:06 (EST)
____bb -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:12:05 (EST)
______Helen -:- Still Meditating? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:58:12 (EST)
________Blanco -:- M's caring love.... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 09:19:24 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- M's caring love.... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:52:03 (EST)
____________Blanco -:- M's power of love.... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 13:17:06 (EST)
______________x -:- M's bullshit -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:13:26 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- M's power of love.... -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:22:57 (EST)
____Zac -:- A place to visit -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:50:02 (EST)
____barney -:- flak attack! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:53:33 (EST)
______x -:- flak attack! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:27:09 (EST)
________barney -:- flak attack! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:02:08 (EST)
__________x -:- flak attack! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:44:11 (EST)
______Liz -:- flak attack! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:23:49 (EST)
________barney -:- help! Is EV monitoring us? -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 21:31:38 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- EV's PR monitoring us! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 22:29:50 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- EV's PR monitoring us! -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:51:14 (EST)
______________Stark Naked -:- Sitting on Maharaji's face -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:03:11 (EST)
______________Gail -:- EV's PR monitoring us! YES YES -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:57:38 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- Why know ? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 03:36:07 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Why know ? -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:55:01 (EST)
____________________Jean-Michel -:- Excellent point -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:25:41 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- Hey Prempal Rawat! -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:52:32 (EST)
__________________Jethro -:- Hey Prempal Rawat! -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:59:00 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- EV's PR monitoring us! YES YES -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:52:50 (EST)

CHR -:- fraud etc -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:03:15 (EST)
__LoveJoy -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:55:25 (EST)
____Rick -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:13:24 (EST)
______Nil -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:19:53 (EST)
________Raja Ji(WPC) -:- Nil, come join us -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:39:13 (EST)
________Rick -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 20:11:17 (EST)
__________bill -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:08:59 (EST)
__________barney -:- thanks, Rick! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:34:37 (EST)
__________Nil -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 21:55:08 (EST)
__________Gail -:- yeah MJ creates mental illness -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:45:45 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- yeah MJ creates mental illness -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:22:07 (EST)
____________Rick -:- yeah MJ creates mental illness -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:28:13 (EST)
____________Diz -:- yeah MJ creates mental illness -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 06:19:29 (EST)
____gerry -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:38:45 (EST)
____CHR -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:40:47 (EST)
______bb -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:54:17 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:46:23 (EST)
________chr -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:03:03 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:23:27 (EST)
____________chr -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:32:52 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:53:39 (EST)
____________Liz -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:30:55 (EST)
________Runamok -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 12:54:43 (EST)
________Gail -:- Delivery: asking for your help -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:34:18 (EST)
______Nil -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:41:22 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Not in my case -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:27:54 (EST)
________chr -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 02:42:47 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Great post (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:50:09 (EST)
____ex-mug -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 08:01:51 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Sure he does -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:10:41 (EST)
____Jethro -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:43:56 (EST)
____y? -:- yeah but he delivers! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:59:15 (EST)
__chr -:- fraud etc -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:10:28 (EST)
____barney -:- fraud etc -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:40:39 (EST)
______chr -:- fraud etc -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:51:37 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Cognac etc -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:32:15 (EST)
__Zac -:- Drip, Drip, Drip (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 14:35:47 (EST)
__Diz -:- fraud etc -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:49:28 (EST)
____chr -:- fraud etc -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 02:04:24 (EST)
______Diz -:- fraud etc -:- Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:09:03 (EST)
__JW -:- fraud etc -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:31:32 (EST)
____Helen -:- Great post -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:29:12 (EST)

JW -:- Another Win For The Forum -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:08:59 (EST)
__JW -:- Attention British Exes -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:12:24 (EST)
____bill -:- -(OT)-george carlin live -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:29:19 (EST)
__Selene -:- Another Win For The Forum -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:24:55 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Congratulations -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:07:45 (EST)

Jethro -:- Beautiful Hebrew(OT) -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 13:57:55 (EST)
__Helen -:- Beautiful Hebrew(OT) -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:22:57 (EST)

Happily out -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:01:13 (EST)
__Diz -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:03:07 (EST)
____Happily out -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:32:45 (EST)
______Happily out -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:17:52 (EST)
________Diz -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:35:14 (EST)
__________Happily out -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:07:17 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:19:05 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:26:46 (EST)
____Gail -:- Good advice needed -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 18:48:00 (EST)
__Sam -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:45:40 (EST)
____Mike -:- Really good advice, SAM (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EST)
______gerry -:- Not popular, but it works -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:25:01 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Not popular, but it works -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:29:40 (EST)
________Selene -:- Not popular, but it works -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:38:04 (EST)
________Diz -:- Not popular, but it works -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:46:11 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- AFF: I've been in touch -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:57:24 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Exit counseling: Info-Cult -:- Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 10:07:54 (EST)
____Helen -:- Advice -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:29 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Good advice needed -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:59:43 (EST)
__red heart -:- Love her and let her alone -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:01:21 (EST)
____gerry -:- Love her and let her alone -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:29:21 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Here's what I did -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:33:45 (EST)
____CHR -:- Here's what I did -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:54:40 (EST)
____Rick -:- Here's what I did -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:53:10 (EST)
______gerry -:- Here's what I did -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:10:28 (EST)

syd -:- Houston program -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:02:51 (EST)
__a messenger -:- Houston program -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:35:19 (EST)
____syd -:- Houston program -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:43:25 (EST)
______Selene -:- Houston program -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:30:16 (EST)

Brian -:- New Journeys -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 01:25:46 (EST)
__bill -:- New Journeys -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 19:29:13 (EST)
____Gail -:- New Journeys-Thank you, both! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:04:44 (EST)

Happily out -:- What do you mean, hate-group? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:44:41 (EST)
__Helen -:- What do you mean, hate-group? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:25:03 (EST)
____Diz -:- Hi -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:50:15 (EST)
__Nil -:- This is what I mean -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:17:10 (EST)
____Jim -:- You don't mean anything -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:00:33 (EST)
______Nil -:- You couldn't see what I mean.. -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:44:00 (EST)
________Jim -:- (yawn)... WhatEVer.... -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:52:11 (EST)
__________x -:- Who do people talk about, Nil? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:17:22 (EST)
____________Nil -:- Who do people talk about, Nil? -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:42:18 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Nil? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:16 (EST)
________________Mike -:- Doggone it, I did it again... -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:05:54 (EST)
________________Nil -:- Mike? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:34:11 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Well, I tried... -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:52:23 (EST)
____________________Nil -:- Well, I tried... -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:28:53 (EST)
______________________gerry -:- Well, I tried... -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:05:32 (EST)
________________________Nil -:- Well, I tried... -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:17:46 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Hate,, anger & full of -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:10:13 (EST)
________________gerry -:- Hate,, anger & full of -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:29:05 (EST)
______Nil -:- You don't mean anything -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:16:08 (EST)
________Jim -:- That's a really bad answer -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:37:28 (EST)
__________Nil -:- That's a really bad answer -:- Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:55:38 (EST)
____________Jim -:- A little realism, please? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:56:52 (EST)
______________Nil -:- A little realism... -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:13:00 (EST)
________ex-mug -:- You don't mean anything -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:37:34 (EST)
__________Nil -:- And you do...??? -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:44:44 (EST)
____________ex-mug -:- And you do...??? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:25:22 (EST)
____________ex-mug -:- And you do...??? -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:10:46 (EST)
____________ex-mug -:- Worms are great!!! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:04:17 (EST)
______________Nil -:- Worms are great!!! -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:32:18 (EST)
________________ex-mug -:- Worms are great!!! -:- Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:14:50 (EST)
____barney -:- here we go again -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:28:34 (EST)
______Nil -:- here we go again -:- Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:07:28 (EST)
________gerry -:- but Nil.. -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:11:45 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- HIS one BIG mistake -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:22:21 (EST)
__________Nil -:- HIS one BIG mistake -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:48:07 (EST)
____________bb -:- HIS one BIG mistake -:- Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:39:16 (EST)


Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:38:57 (EST)
From: IronBear-Jon
Email: ironbear-jon@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Hi All,
Was doing a web search cause I heard that Marahaji was still around and I ran across this site. I was a premie from '71 til '75 in Denver.. and I have to say that finding him was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I was on drugs when I became a premie.. and had quit long before I left in '75.

There were a couple of reasons I left.. one was because I got married and she wasn't into it.. and the other was because I didn't agree with Marahaji and how he was running things. He came to me with a Mahatma in the astral one night and wanted to know why I left.. (didn't know he even knew), but I was straight with him. He just said OK.. and thanked me and left, and that was that.

I never did buy the claim that he was the second coming.. but I also don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with the DLM turned my life around and set me on my spiritual path.. one which I still actively pursue today. I still meditate a couple of hours a day.. and I have him to thank for introducing me to the joys of communing with God within.

I don't believe that life is about right or wrong.. or good or bad. It's about experiences that teach us.. and until we get the lesson.. we stay stuck. After reading some of these messages.. it looks to me like some folks are kinda stuck. Let it go.. and move on with your lives.. otherwise you'll be 80 and still bashing him for 'uhhh.. I forget.. who were we talking about again?' :-) You get the point.

From my perspective you may be educating others in the 'dangers' of becoming involved with him.. but then again you may be keeping them from a positive life changing experience like mine.

What he does with his money isn't really anybody's business but his anyway. It may not be the way you or I would do things.. but who knows. I just don't think it's right to judge anybody. If I were completely honest.. I wouldn't mind having a private jet and a Rolls myself, and I teach spirituality too.

I've come a long way since my days of '65 VW's and tie dies.. no Rolls just yet.. but I do make a substantial living and have a nice home on acreage and a convertible.. but you know what? I have the best spiritual life I've ever had, so who's to say he's wrong for what he's doing? The truth is that most of what I have is due to the fact that I follow the guidance that I receive from within on business matters.. and my life in general. So.. the proof is in the pudding as they say.

So that's my two cents worth. Hope you're all still meditating and finding God within. It has truly blessed my life. Take care.
Namaste'
Jon Christiansen
aka IronBear
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:47:13 (EST)
From: LoveJoy
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: www.enjoyinglife.org
Message:
Hi Jon,

Did you see http:/www.enjoyinglife.org yet? It just started up in fall '98...

Interesting story...and interesting about the 'astral visit.'
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:02:35 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: anyone notice...?
Message:
the increase in ''ringers'' we're getting here lately. Like this coconut 'Iron Bear.'' (Nice name, BTW) Seems like the .org has commissioned their robots to go forth and spread the cheer. Does anyone really believe this guy is for real? As if Goober really came to him on the ''astral plane'' Give me a break you fuckin' fake. And then ''Love joy '' immediately pops in with ''seen enjoyinglifeplayingwithourselves.org?''

This wouldn't be orchestrated or anything, would it?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 03:37:07 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: anyone notice...?
Message:
gerry!

come on, man. He's right and you know it. Time to move on. Stop being stuck!

And you can start moving on and getting unstuck by posting some nekid pictures of yourself. Very liberating!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:25:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
I disagree 100% with your statement that 'we shouldn't judge', partner. Being able to judge is essential to spirituality in my opinion.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:55:53 (EST)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Its not so much what M does with ' his' money that people object to ,but how he gets his money.Basically he takes premies' money and spends it on an extravegant lifestyle. If he had written books,or invented things(like some premies say-and btw he hasn't-but thats a whole other story) and then made enough money to buy himself a jet,well that is his business.But,instead he lives on tax free donations that he extorts from his premies. Whenever he wants something he simply has a huge fundraising drive to get as much from his premies as he can.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:28:53 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
From my perspective you may be educating others in the 'dangers' of becoming involved with him.. but then again you may be keeping them from a positive life changing experience like mine.
. I was on drugs when I became a premie.. and had quit long before I left in '75.
I never did buy the claim that he was the second coming.. but I also don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater


Actually I sincerely think we must give some thought to this point. As a matter of fact I know of people who have had this same experience, they were on drugs when they became premies and later successfully quit drugs. And yes I definatly do agree that you must not throw the baby out with the bathwater., you must actually strongly hold-on to whatever belongs to you, specially your life you know?, your life is your own and nobody has the right to claim any condominium on it.

I bet many loving people surrounded you while you were a premie. They loved you, they cared for you. Sincere, open, warm hearted people...somebody like you and me, like the ones who are Posting here today and who still are definatly your friends. This is the energy which saw you through...you are very very lucky indeed...

But what about the hundreds of people who lost their trust, who wasted an otherwise promising life, who abandoned their wifes, their children, their belongings, their careers, their youth, who lost their sanity following this Master of Deceit, this logically sound fallacy, this perfectly coded “human worm” which sucks and accumulates money leaving behind distress, lost lifes, abandoned children, ruined youths, lost careers, an eroneous vision of reality, a shield against real human beings and hopelessness....

No...no, my reflexion is that the dangers exceed by too much the benefits, if there are millions of problems and you solve 1 by creating 1,000 then what you have is millions plus ninehundred and ninety nine... i.e. problems growing rather than decreasing. Yes, you have been very lucky, very very lucky indeed....

We Post here to help avoid more people becoming unlucky, not to throw whatever is good in people away...
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:44:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
I agree with you Blanco

Minister Farakhan also has helped people get off drugs by theirbecoming part of the Fruits of Islam but he is still a rascist

Helen
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:48:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: so you dont judge huh.
Message:
experiences that teach us what?

you say you dont believe its right to judge anybody but clearly
you yourself haven't given up on that.

maharji came to you on the astral plane?
you commune with god within, have you seen him or it any
more clearly than you saw maharaji?
If you value the meditation so much, why havent you checked in
about him?

Your post sounds more than a little uneven and questionable.
How honest are you being with us?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:19:00 (EST)
From: trainspotter
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I was on drugs, too
Message:
I'm very skeptical about this post from IronJon.

Sir, if, indeed, you were really on drugs, and I'm talking real goddamn drugs, and Maharaji helped you get away from them then I'd agree that the benefit might have outweighed the harm of being involved in a potentially destructive cult.

But, I'm asking you what kind of drugs? What kind of drug problem did you have?

Unless you are talking about a real $100+ a day heroin habit or a real nasty Crystal Meth or Coke thing going on, I'm just not gonna buy it.


I'll tell you this much, I've known heroin addicts and it is god-awful. So much is their need to get well and not be sick on a daily basis that I really doubt that Maharaji's magic can cut through it. If anyone is the true exception please speak up.

Research clearly shows that recreational drug use, including LSD, is widespread amongst people in their youth and as they get older their drug experimentation decreases. And this decrease happens all too often without a cult or a religion, call it growing up or maturity.

What would be more interesting would be a longitudinal study on substance abuse in people who were at one time involved in a cult measured against a control group of people who were not in a cult. And any other dsyfunctional anti-social behavior, too.

And another good study would be to determine the amount of pre-existing anti-social dsyfunctionality in people who end up joining cults.

I suspect that these studies might have already been done and we can guess as to the results.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:26:21 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Anyone
Subject: I was on drugs, three
Message:
I am extremely skeptical about what IronJon has posted as well. Maybe that's his individual experience, but as said eariler it must have been a weak drug habit from the start, because I know lot's of so-called currently practicing premies, who have had so-called knowledge for more than 20 years and they are still using drugs today! They go to 'events' and get stoned before and after the 'event' , video programs and where maharaji is present as well. In fact, a couple of them have told me that their experience of satsang and meditation is much better when they're stoned. I wish knowledge was a cure for drug addiction, but it's not! Alot of the early followers (1970's) took LSD so that they could 'see God'. Then maharaji told them that knowledge was better than an LSD trip, but that was not their experience. I personally know of many currently practicing followers who still do LSD, heroin, crack and whatever else they can get their hands on to cope with their cult involvement. On the contrary, for many being in a cult has been the gateway for increased drug use. Further, maharaji does not discourage drug use in his discourses.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 05:55:26 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Knowledge and drugs don't mix
Message:
In a video entitled 'Interactions' Maharaji makes it clear that drugs are not for those who would pursue Knowledge.

Maharaji let's people 'do their thing.' I know that drives you nuts. On the one hand, you criticize him for being so well respected. On the other hand, you criticize him for not taking more control and for not telling people how to live their lives.

Some people climb to the so-called 'top' to be in a so-called 'elite' near Maharaji. Those who are concerned with only what is going on by the world's standards and how much they can get of temporary honors and luxuries, they are losing out. Those who want to be near him because of the same kinds of perks a business executive gets in a bigger corporation -- those people are the biggest fools and losers. They take their temporary treasures and indulge, get sick, leave, and complain how they were bilked. They bilk themselves. They were not digging for the Real Treasure that was and is available to them.

I pray that if I am ever near Maharaji in his personal life, I will not be such a fool. If being near him would so tempt me that it would shake my perspective, then as much as I would love to be with him, I prefer that I would not be. I am enjoying the beautiful Treasures he has revealed to me and continues to help me to harvest. I want to harvest more and more, and if being near Maharaji makes people stupid, keep me away, and let me see him only from afar. Whatever it takes to continue to experience the Beauty within, the Magic of life -- I pray to keep my grip firm!
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 18:12:22 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Knowledge and drugs don't mix
Message:
Does this apply to Big M, or just his minions?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:16:08 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Big K
Message:
'Does this apply to Big M, or just his minions?'

Don't you realise that when prempal talks about the Big K he's talking about Ketamin, a drug, which when used excessively gives one illusions of graduor even beleiveibg they know everything and are god. (Alsothey forget how to sppelll)
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:05:05 (EST)
From: mili?
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: look at your sentence
Message:
why do you think it takes whaat you think to experience the
'beauty within?'

What have you SEEN within?
What have you heard?
and what did your tongue find?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 14:12:06 (EST)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: Iron Bear
Subject: I was on drugs,/one foundation
Message:
The entire One Foundation group,Elan Vital spiritual music stars from Europe, US and Ozzies, all would get together for over the top stoner and drinking parties, right after festival programs This is in the 80's and 90's, including '98.
Drug leaving was your choice, not an effect of knowledge.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 15:44:13 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: I was on drugs,/one foundation
Message:
I feel so retarded.

In the daze when I was drinking and light drugging, I would hold off when I went to programs to enhance and prolong the darshan effect. Eventually, after the feeling wore off I'd resume my own party.

Jeez, I missed the whole point - have fun and get laid!

Sex, Drugs and Rock 'n Roll!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:00:58 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: I was on drugs,/one foundation
Message:
Yes I used to always hear about those PAM parties. Once I even got invited! Had this huge fight with the guy I had driven to LA with. He wanted to go and I wanted to drive back home.
I ended up leaving him in LA. This was SO important to him, to be at a PAM coke party. How sad.
And to think I cried half the way home because I had such a crush on this idiot. I saw him a year ago at a festival/program/event and he looked awful He asked me for a hug. I hate it when people ask for hugs. I mean if a hug was going to naturally happen it would wouldn't it?

so sad...
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:04:32 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: I was on drugs,/one foundation
Message:
In the early one foundation days,some of them found it all very difficult. A couple of them were seasoned musos and dope was just a regular part of their lifestyle.They stumbled across K and next thing they know they're in the 'lords' band.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:09:23 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: question for M.M.
Message:
Man oh man I was such a niave believer.
All the upper dust were at these pam parties using drugs?
The band, those songs, geez. How about fuzzbee?
what about him M.M.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 23:57:48 (EST)
From: MM
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: question for M.M.
Message:
common practice.still is.Kim. Jeff. Not with Maharaji though.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 19:11:24 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: MM
Subject: question for M.M.
Message:
Man,
Was I ever assuming.
Does Chris standerwick still go up there or even he is not
going?
Any news on bill wishard?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:30:50 (EST)
From: y?
Email: None
To: trainspotter
Subject: I was on drugs, too
Message:
The story goes that one of the first couple of people from England to find Maharaji were heroin addicts. I'm not going to mention their names but I know they are very close to Maharaji and definately off the heroin and have been since they met him.

Does anyone else know this story?

I also know of a herion addict that loved Maharaji very much but still died of a heroin overdose..
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:38:25 (EST)
From: metal badger
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: tin man, steel dog,
Message:
diamond linx
shamans are such fun.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:49:23 (EST)
From: DG
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Yeah! Say Yeah! This is the message that inspires me - after 'following' M for 15 years or so, I'm happily moved on and still enjoying the techniques - and say Yeah!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:52:57 (EST)
From: DG
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Keep trying to post stuff here, but it's going through. But I say yours is the message that inspires me. I'm a human being (neiher premie or ex-premie) that was following M for 15 years, and happily moved on now, still practicing, and loving it. Thanks
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:41:08 (EST)
From: y?
Email: None
To: DG
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
I'm really coming around to your way of thinking but if you are still practicing don't you get an inkling to go and see M if he is in the neighbourhood?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:59:40 (EST)
From: DG
Email: No
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Still trying to post this thing - after 3 attempts. Who ever said that listening to |M makes you good ayt computers. Anyway - very inspiring story here. I've stopped following M after 15 years, and moved on happily. The techniques still work and are very very cool.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:21:01 (EST)
From: channeling jimmie
Email: None
To: DG
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Have you had the nectar?
What have you seen inside?
What have you heard inside?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:47:43 (EST)
From: chunneling hymie
Email: None
To: channeling jimmie
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
Have you had the nectar? If you can call it that
What have you seen inside? I threw up once
What have you heard inside? A loud ringing after a concert
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 10:43:41 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: DG
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
The techniques still work and are very very cool.

The only way I would find the techniques very very cool is if I could disassociate them from M and his stoned zombie tribe. Then I could just let them be whatever they are, and maybe then I'd even enjoy them. But M's long since erased any possibility of that happenning. To me it's not a question of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's still wearing the ring after you've been divorced. Besides, there are plenty of other meditation techniques out there, just as effective, free of charge that you can learn just browsing through your nearest bookstore.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:48:19 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Wearing the ring after divorce
Message:
I like the analogy. But if we can still practice meditation without Maharaji is that really like wearing the ring after divorce? Divorcing from M but not from ourselves and G.O.D.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:04:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: RunningBare
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
hey Running Bear, you reading this? ooohh it could be SO romantic, your running, he catches you, his iron salutes you and calls to you....

im nuts.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:45:06 (EST)
From: Running Bear
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, Thanks for
Message:
bringing this to my attention. Could this be my one and only-- the soulmate I've been waiting for to spin my lower chakras? Or perhaps he's a brother bear; then it would be incest. Hmmm. 'Spose it could be interesting either way.

Running Bear plays with Wild Cat (for now).

Gotta run.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:07:05 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Running Bear
Subject: Running Bear and irons
Message:
Yeah, I'm starting to remember something about Running Bear and irons. Someone thought that women were like irons. (What were men like? Toasters?) So by that line of thought, Iron Bear is probably a woman.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 20:50:06 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: IronBear-Jon
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
I've just read the two new journeys and this message and I am greatly impressed by the certainty, lack of make-wrong, and the intelligence of these three people.

Life is a learning process amongst other things and we can all learn a lot from the big K, gurus, people, animals and life. Sometimes we make mistakes but if we are willing to grow in God then we definitely do one way or another. I just wish premies would stop feeling sorry for people who feel they need to move on.

There is life & God before, with & after Maharaji and he definitely has helped a lot of us to know this as long as we don't get trapped depending on him now for our strength instead of Knowing God within us.

I expect I might get a bit of flack for this from Barney who may think I'm part of a group of premies invading the ex-site, which I'm not. If so it would be nice if there was a completely honest and unbiased forum for premies AND expremies or even lovers of God who wish to express how they feel without any form of Church bent. Iinstead of one extreme to the other.(ie. love Maharaji - hate Maharaji).

Love,
Liz.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:12:05 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
You are free to make the forum what you think it should be.
Give it a try.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:58:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Still Meditating?
Message:
There are plenty of folk here who believe in God. Don't be afraid to say what you believe. I agree with you that there is God after Maharaji--thank God
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 09:19:24 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: M's caring love....
Message:
I just remembered a story which might illustrate just how much M cares that anyone coming to him might give-up drugs.

There was a place in England called 'Highway' which served as a residence for M. Of course we spent hours and hours standing on the road in front to get 'Darshan' (...well if my memory doesn´t fail this meant to see the human body of god incarnate???). We truly believed that if we desired it from within our heart he'll somehow receive the sincere message and come to let us see him (...rather than come to see us???). Well this usually went on until the climax of the 'Lila' (a holy game similar to hide and seek with rules similar to solitary) was finally reached when M poped out to the balcony and waved his blessed holy hand toward the general direction in which we were standing at....when he did this it was just like...man..we literally fell face down on the floor and blissed-out for the rest of our day ( rather than for the rest of our lifes as next day we had to come back for more...).

Well, one day, some of us were invited to come inside Highway by a Lady Mahatma we knew as Bai Ji (I realize now this is a very Generic Name). Bai Ji was a very earthly middle age lady which treated us as if we were her children, she was all the time teaching us how to be good girls an boys so that we could be worthy of M's presence. So people who had stinky feet or bad breath got readily told off by her. This time she was inviting us in to show us how to prepare a real vegetable curry...

Well on this day some premies brought their drug addict friend to Highway hoping that M would give him knowledge which they thought was the instrument necessary for his rehabilitation(Salvation???).

Two of his friends were holding him so that he could stand up, he was visibly stoned and every couple of seconds he gibbered something which I understood to be: '...all i want is me mandrax...''...all i want is me mandrax...'

Bai Ji interrogated him for a while but after some time she realized what was going on. I remember clearly that she said:

...how is M going to understand this gibberish???. His mind is totally gone!!!. Take him back and let him first get a mind so that M is able to hit it with his hammer...
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:52:03 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: M's caring love....
Message:
That's perfect. Trying to get a junkie Knowledge while he's in a nod. But hey, shouldn't that have been the ultimate proof just where this Knowledge comes from? Giving this poor guy Knowledge should have straightened him out right then and there. After all, it comes straight from God, don't it? What kills me about 'prohets', is that they're always talking about the miraculous powers of God, but when you ask them for one, it's 'er... well... this is a special case... er... miracles don't happen like this... blah blah blah...' It's all bullshit.

All Knowledge ever was is four meditation techniques with no special powers, whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I've found them to be the least effective meditation because of the bullshit hype that surrounds them. When you make something out to be something it isn't, it loses whatever power it actually has. That's why I think Knowledge never worked for me. It was made out to be something it never was, something it never could hope to be, a direct channel to God Almighty. Anybody who says this Knowledge lived up to their expectations has got to be deluding themselves.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 13:17:06 (EST)
From: Blanco
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: M's power of love....
Message:
Yes Jerry, but independently from what M was claiming at the time or now about his knowledge, getting or at least trying to get this guy knowledge would have been proof to me that M had some interest in releasing real human suffering and that he really beleived in the power of his knowledge.

Bai Ji´s conclusion is very eloquent, she is certain that there are no Miraculous Powers in Knowledge, she reckons the degree of the guy´s “nod “ and knowing there is no point to continue the conversation she recognizes that the friends of this poor guy love him so much, as it is evident from what they were doing, that they stand as a the owners of a real power to get him out from his addiction. Therefore she, in an utterly aggresive effort not to loose even a penny worth beckons them to reinstate the sick man back to normality and, of course, when he is ready to be productive just bring him back so that M may take appropiate advantage of him.

Now...that´s what I call a futuristic insight.....

...when I was a small boy I was playing with some friends and we were trying to decide who was to play the role of Superman and who was to be villain. Everybody wanted to be Superman, however it really impressed us when one of the boys said...no, the villain, I want to be the villain. We asked him why on earth he wanted to be the villain – if I am put on a cape – he said - and throw myself off this edge, I shall hit the floor and hurt myself...however none of the villains has to fly....

M is one step further always, he is playing Superman but since he was a little boy he is clear that he cannot fly....without a jet of course!!!!

I quite agree with you and he himself does not believe his own bullshit so although he is deluding others he himself remains away from this delusion (Hey!!! does it sound too familiar???)
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:13:26 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: M's bullshit
Message:
Blanco,
I know there are some people here who think that Maharaji is sincerely deluded, and that he believes, to at least some degree, in his own divinity. Some people have said that they feel that gmj is as much a victim of the unhealthy charade that he perpetrates, as the premies themselves. I personally disagree with this view and feel as you do, that he 'does not believe in his own bullshit'. Furthermore I think that he laughs in the faces of premies(inside) and that he thinks that his devotees are the biggest bunch of idiots that he has ever (not)met. I think that he feels that he would certainly not get involved with(send money to) a fraudulent guru like himself, if the situation were reversed, and he were a potential devotee rather than the charasmatic leader that he is. I think that the amount of respect that he has for his average follower is a big fat zero, and that he has much more respect for people that see through him, like ex's, and normal, healthy people who would never even consider getting addicted to his cult in the first place.
By the way Blanco, I like what you have to say, you've got a good style.
Take it Easy, x
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:22:57 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Blanco
Subject: M's power of love....
Message:
Blanco, I agree with you. I don't think M is deluded. If anything, I think he just justifies what he's doing because so many people are thankful for it.

One thing that always struck me as odd about M is his focus on thankful premies. He loves that. He can't hear thank you enough. His satsang are loaded with stories of thankful premies, premies who have suffered real tragedy in their lives and how all they want to do, in spite of that, is thank Maharaji. He gets off on that. I think he needs that if he's to have any faith that there really is something to Knowledge.

When he hears that there are premies struggling with Knowledge, he can't accept it. His response is that these premies just won't allow that joy, that happiness, that love into their lives. He buries his head in the sand when confronted by these premies. He doesn't want to know.

For Maharaji, this Knowledge either works for everybody or it works for nobody. He's taken the stand that it works for everybody. Why is that? Why can't he just accept the claims from those premies that say it doesn't work for them? Because, if he did, he'd have to acknowledge that he's wrong about Knowledge, that it's not a universal cure. This is something he'll never do.

This is why he lives in a lie.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:50:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: A place to visit
Message:
Liz- I think this forum is large enough to include you and anyone else that wants to discuss God or whatever. One thing is certain here, you are safely outside the Cult and any cult-like thinking will be challenged. Thank God!
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 14:53:33 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: flak attack!
Message:
Liz,

I'm sorry that you feel that you're going to get flak from me for saying what you want to say on the Forum.

What I'm objecting to is the apparent ambush postings by premies who use the phrases move on and stuck. Actually, it might only be one person because of the repeated use of these words. It's too much of a coincidence for me not to have my alarms go off.

Sure, I'd like to be moved on and no longer stuck, but it's taking time. I only got out about a year and a half ago after nearly 25 years of consuming a philosophy that in my opinion fosters passivity and reliance on Maharaji. A philosophy which told us not to be concerned with our own welfare and that if we really, really surrendered and gave our everything to Maharaji that we would be taken care of and we would be happy. At least that's what I was hearing and, of course, that is a subjective perspective.

So, here I am and I am a confused person with the stunted philosophy of a greedy and pampered Maharaji still echoing in my head as I try to find my own way. Twenty five years is a lot of conditioning to let go of, discard, and revert. Hanging out on the Forum has been very reassuring as I read of other people's simliar experiences which may be exhibited by whinning, anger, new hope, joy, or what-not. I do not feel alone in my struggle to find myself.

And where else can I go? Only ex-premies or other ex-cult people can really know what I've been through because they went through the same thing.

Sure, post about God and personal growth. Fine with me. At this point, I'm not sure where I stand on God. I was a very strong believer in God, but that God had Maharaji in it. I'd like to believe in God and maybe that will happen - I don't know. Reading posts about believing in God or whatever actually gives me some hope in that area.

As for Love/Hate of Maharaji, I really don't know about that either. I had a lot of very powerful experiences around Maharaji. My darshans were powerful experiences. However, as I read about the real drinking, angry, philandering Maharaji I question the quality of his character.

However, that Hindu philosophy via stories of past masters mascarading as prostitutes or what not pops up in my head and challenges my ability to think critically about him. You know all that Lila stuff, testing the devotee, etc. Very powerful brainwashing we got!

So, Liz, post away. I rarely, if ever, jump on real people saying what they want to say, but I might jump on those phony posters even though it's an exercise in futility. But I want them to know that I see through their transparent effort and I am appalled at their contrite attitude regarding the struggle of others to break away from twenty five years of a mind fucking programming and the damage incurred. Sure, it's my responsibility, but when someone is saying that they are God and telling you this stuff, it's a different story.

We know that someone has a fulltime service to monitor this site. It would be naive not to believe that Maharaji and EV are not concerned with this website. Furthermore, it wouldn't be a stretch to consider that occassionally they will attempt to make posts to put doubt in our minds in an effort to weaken our wills and make this site less effective. And, of course, this effort could be from well meaning premies acting on their own as well.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:27:09 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: flak attack!
Message:
Great post Barney!
Very real, very honest and very unhateful, the kind of post that is hard for premies like Nil, who are looking for misery and hatred, to digest, I would imagine.
By the way, nice use of imbedded html, as usual.
Bye, x
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:02:08 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: x
Subject: flak attack!
Message:
Thanks x.

I'm not one of the great debaters. However, I detest what I perceive to be the phony ambush posts that attempt to denigrate what's going on here via the notorious Move On and Stuck. If it was only that easy!

I'll throw a kudo your way as I'm amazed that your involvement was as a kid, is that right?

It's a different perspective than most of us.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 16:44:11 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: flak attack!
Message:
Yes, I agree, the 'just move on, and get over it', posts are patronizing, simpleminded and unrealistic. It's like, 'Gee I thought some creep was god for 25 years, and now I've changed my mind about that. Oh well, no biggie, I'm over it, Bye.' I mean come on, get real guys.
It's amazing how bent out of shape some of these premies get over the fact that some people think gmj and knowledge suck. If they're really having such a great experience why are they so concerned that others claim they aren't?
Yes, its true I have a different perspective than most of the people here. My parents were(are) premies, and believe it or not I 'recieved knowledge' when I was eight years old back in '74. Basically I smelled a rat fom the gate and only gave gmj lip service out of codependence to my parents and their friends. I had gmj's garbage pushed on me, until eventually I made a stand when I was old enough and refused to go to satsang or programs. Because of my parents strong belief in Maharaji I've never really been able to take them seriously, or even feel any more than passing respect for them. In fact I still feel violated for being coerced into kissing the gurus mangy feet.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 20:23:49 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: flak attack!
Message:
Hi Barney,

'We know that someone has a full time service to monitor this site'

How do we know this?
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 21:31:38 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: help! Is EV monitoring us?
Message:
Liz,

I guess that I don't know for sure. Some one said it awhile ago and I believe they even had a name. Maybe they can subtantiate with details.

I think that EV would have to monitor things here. Sure, it would ultimately be a waste of time and a very painful service to do.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 22:29:50 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: EV's PR monitoring us!
Message:
What's for sure is that a spanish ex (Elise) told on the French forum how she knew about it.

She has some high ranking premies friends in EV, and they told her about it, not knowing she was an ex posting on the forum.

From my own experience in EV (I officially left 1 1/2 year ago) EV - like DLM - has ALWAYS been monitoring the media on what was published about cults and EV/DLM. That's always been a part of PR's service.
From what I know, they keep copies of any printed materials etc.

I imagine they must keep copies of all the posts related to the nasty things we say on m&k, sorted by names and dates ....
Plus copies of all the pages of those nasty negative sites.
I guess I have one of the worse records!
Keeps them busy!
I don't know what they're doing with this stuff. Maybe CDs?
Some of us must be famous enemies.
PR's conferences, wondering what to do about it.
Some of them have to be held responsible for this PR disaster I guess. Still wondering who!
Some of the guys who treated me so badly that I had to resign?
he he
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:51:14 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV's PR monitoring us!
Message:
I think Ros Sutton is the PR person. Poor old Ros, what a drain on her.
Like you, I have no doubt that this site is monitored and that LOADS of premies read the site so that they can see thioer buried thoughts and feelings in print. You see the real 'seekers of truth' must be starving to hear something real while they are slowly being suffocated prem and his anti-life belief system.

Regards Jethro
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:03:11 (EST)
From: Stark Naked
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Sitting on Maharaji's face
Message:
So, loads of premies are here lurking?

Ooooooh, that's so exciting! Such a kinky turn-on!

Premies, right now as I type this to you I'm completely naked and my bare ass is resting on a picture of Maharaji that I dug out of my closet.

I can't tell you how good it feels.

Mmmmmmm. Aaaaaahhh. Ooooohhh! Oh, my god! Yeesssss!
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:57:38 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: EV's PR monitoring us! YES YES
Message:
LINA DOES IT FOR THIS AREA. THEY HAVE QIITE A FEW PEOPLE JUST IN CANADA ALONE. ONE PERSON TOLD ME THAT HER HUSBAND WAS APPROACHED AND ASKED IF HE KNEW HIS WIFE WAS POSTING AS AN EX.

THEY NEED MANY PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER TO TRY TO DISCOVER WHO THE ANONYMOUS EXs ARE!

What I can't figure out is how these people can sift through all this material and keep their beliefs unscathed?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 03:36:07 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Why know ?
Message:
Why do they want to know the names of the people posting here?

That seems absolutely impossible! Service? keep them busy?
Convince them that m & EV is doing something AGAINST .... I don't know what, criticism being expressed?

Ban these people from events, videos, mailing lists etc? It looks like they're producing the contrary: those banned people tend to constitute groups, and spread even more criticism amongst their friends, which is ultimately detrimental to m&k. They can't even have a cohesive policy. The only thing they should do of course is IGNORE criticism, like the BM did for decades. And now they are cornered, thanks to the Internet. he he

They're spreading more paranoia amongst the premies, which is totally detrimental to them.

I don't know how they'll react to this. Being more fed up and leave the cult faster? As far as I know, some premies that I know and were quite involved are not involved at all anymore. fed up with this EV business having nothing to do with spirituality.

Most of the premies I know are sincerely and genuinely interested in spirituality, and what m & EV is spreading these days is less & less spiritual: trinkets, videos, events organisation, workshops, etc

Keep even a lower profile .... looks like that's what's happening, and that's a good.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 10:55:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Why know ?
Message:
Good point, JM. I also think it's interesting how FEW premies have listed something on enjoyinglife.org. Really very few if you look at it. I think that's mostly because premies have to give their real names and I have been told personally by a couple of premies that they are very embarrassed by the trite, syrupy vacuousness of that website. So, they don't participate and maybe enjoyinglife is another 'drip' for a number of fence-sitting premies.

Basically, I think the vast majority of premies are also quite embarrassed about being in what's left of a relic cult from the 70s, at least in the West. That's why only a handful of people have received knowledge in North America in the last few years. Premies are just silent followers -- it's not something they tell the people they work with, their social friends, or even their relatives, at least not anymore. It's real evidence of how little premies are experiencing, and how they hang on mostly for nostalgic and social reasons, when they don't even know how to explain to others what it's all about. And they don't want it advertised on the internet that they ARE even premies

. It's kind of sad, really, although I don't think Prem Pal Rawat cares, as long as they continue to donate. And as someone mentioned, I think many premies donate money to Maharaji because they feel guilty that they aren't doing any propogation on their own, and because they aren't really even practicing knowledge. So, it's kind of a substitute, which organized religion uses all the time.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:25:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Excellent point
Message:
, I think many premies donate money to Maharaji because they feel guilty that they aren't doing any propogation on their own

That was definitely my case. Your analysis is excellent.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:52:32 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Gail
Subject: Hey Prempal Rawat!
Message:
how these people can sift through all this material and keep their beliefs unscathed?

Jihad, Holy War. I guess that's exciting for some faithful premies. What those EV managers fail to see, is that 90% and more of the still 'practicing' premies are not like them die-hard!
Most of the premies are already sitting on the fence, and very critic. Some have been for very long. And when the cup gets filled, THEY LEAVE!

Anything can make them leave, specially 'new' things, like what's going on these days in EV, and the BM's mood these days. In a way that's exactly what happened to me.

What's funny is that as a faithful premie, I've always wondered why so many premies had left in the past.

Now that I'm on the other side, I can clearly see! And now the BM even publicly calls us 'his enemies'! What happened with you? Are you losing your temper Prempal?

The BM will NEVER understand I guess. He's doing mistake after mistake, nothing surprising as he doesn't know what he's doing, and has nothing divine in him. And those EV managers sheepingly following him, how pathetic and ridiculous.

How can you stay for so long in such a ridiculous LOTU trip? How can you be so blind to reality?

Hey Prempal, why don't you email me, and see if we can make friends again? You just reimburse all my gifts and donations to you and EV, I think I can figure out how much, and I might be a bit cooler with you, and at least admit you show some honesty. We were friends before, remember? You even said you trust me! What happened?

Will you dare sending me an email? C'mon, I know you're not the Lord, are you a human being at least?
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:59:00 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey Prempal Rawat!
Message:
'Will you dare sending me an email? ..'

He thinks his silence is a demonstration of The Master's wisdom.

In fact he's a fucking coward.

Love from Jethro

PS Pardon my French(as we say in the UK every time we sware)
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 04:52:50 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: EV's PR monitoring us! YES YES
Message:
Hi Gail,

'What I can't figure out is how these people can sift through all this material and keep their beliefs unscathed?'

Well I can understand it but find it hard to explain. Certainly, when I was a follower or rather should I say a believer in prempal, there's no way that I could let in anything critical or negative of him. It took me a long time to realise that I was brainwashed.
It is great to be free of that stuff and to begin to able to vocalise it.

Love from Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:03:15 (EST)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
I've been very busy the last couple of weeks and have only just got back to view the forum. There have been some interesting things posted.Some exes have said that they dont regard M as a fraud,but rather,as deluded. Deluded,but sincere in his delusion.I guess if someone doesn't deliberately set out to con people,but believes in what he is doing then he is ,strictly speaking not a fraud. I have posted here before stating that I didnt beleive that M was a deliberate fraud. Others have labelled M as a deliberate confidence trickster.There are probably several shades of grey in between,but I am beginning to think that he is,in fact a fraud.
When looking back over the time I followed M (73 to 88) there seems to have been a systematic way of working by M,that points to self serving fraudulence.In 73 K was the bait.We were told about a light brighter than 1000 suns, the holy word that was described in the bible etc.M,as the revealer of this was regarded as the Lord who had come again to reveal the knowledge of all knowledges-but the focus was on the K more than the giver. In late 76/early 77 the techniques were altered-especially light.M obviously realised that it was optical pressure creating the light and so 'light of 1000 suns' was dropped and we were told that in fact the light was infinitely subtle.Gradually the importance of M was increased, until K was no longer the reason and goal of human life.Devotion to M was now the purpose and K was how we recognised and connected to him. Ultimately, we were told ,the experience didnt matter, what mattered was our devotion and dedication to M.In 83 things changed again.K was now this nebulous thing called 'life'. M seemed to step down from his pedestal-publicly at least.The ashrams were closed. They were no longer the reveue raisers they had been.In fact they had become a liability.Sickness,debt,going to programs, and the fact that most ashram premies had sacrificed study and qualifications to be in the ashram ,leaving them poor breadwinners, as well as looking after instructors and other community expenses, meant that less and less finance was going directly to M.Solution-have self supporting ,part time instructors and have large fund raising drives amongst the premies.We started receving copious letters and brochures asking for money for the latest plane or other aspects of M's 'work'. By the way,for those who claim that M gives of himself selflessly by flying around the world to all his premies,flying is his favourite thing to do.He really enjoys it.He made that very clear and obvious when I was around him and his plane.He was fascinated by fast,glamourous cars when he first cane to the west and now he has graduated to planes.
What I'm getting at is that the 'evolution' of M & K over the years seems to have been self serving rather than even for the misguided good of his premies.The changes have been reactive and dedicated to keeping his support.Its almost as though he were searching for a way for premies to be totally dedicated to him,while still keeping them enough in the world to make M an extravegant living. There seems to have been little thought about the integrity of unchanging truths.
Another matter on the forum recently -somebody claimed M's alcahol over indulgence was rumour an d hearsay.I and many others have seen the alcahol problem first hand.I have given details before on the forum.Certainly in the 70s and early 80s there was an alcahol problem.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:55:25 (EST)
From: LoveJoy
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Whatever he's doing in his personal life, maybe it would be good for him to keep doing it: Fact is, CHR, he delivers exactly what he offers. What he has given me, no other gift can compare. He gave me a way to go within my own heart and find the treasure inside...and it works!! The most amazing thing is that is works, and he's always got fantastic things to say that help me find it again and again, and I never know what I'll find next, it's ever-new and ever-fresh yet constant. And so is he. He's the Best.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:13:24 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
What an unmitigated vat of varment poop. What a liar and con-artist you are. What is it that Guru Maharaj Ji offers? You don't say. Did you forget to mention that? What does he offer and deliver? What is the treasure you mention? Why would someone need a guru with below average intelligence to find that? And how about giving some examples of the fantastic things he has to say to help you find it again and again? What does this mean?.....

and I never know what I'll find next, it's ever-new and ever-fresh yet constant. And so is he.

But the part of your post that is really hysterical is where you say

He's the Best.

What are you, a fucking cartoon character? Hahahahahahahahahaha

By the way, is Guru Maharaj Ji still God? Hahahahahahahahaha
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:19:53 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Rick, you are a mouthy, arrogrant prick!! Who the fuck are you to call someone a 'liar and a con artist'? What high ground do you inhabit that gives you such insight into the veracity of LoveJoy's comments? FUCK ALL that's what. Your a low-life twit that doesn't know HOW to have a civilized discussion with people whom you don't agree with. Go back to your dark lurking hole and stop your spastic lunging for meaningful input.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:39:13 (EST)
From: Raja Ji(WPC)
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil, come join us
Message:
Hey Nil, Would you like to join us? You have what it takes,i.e. you really know how approach people.

Raja Ji, Commander of the World Police Core

PS you should know that the WPC is the most important service. So important that you don't havr to attend sats..woops I mean video events or do med...sorry practice. HE will look after all our needs.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 20:11:17 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Nil, how nice to see you! Right, then... you ask how I know that LoveJoy is a liar and a con artist? And what high ground do I inhabit which gives me the insight into the veracity of LoveJoy's comments?

I'm glad you asked. I spent five years of my life doing nothing but following guru maharaj ji. I spent all my time and energy following his instructions and hanging out with his followers. I came with an open heart and mind, and gave it everything I had.

It wasn't easy figuring out I'd been conned because I had no point of reference. The other followers of the guru were also conned and everyone was lying to each other. Yes, Nil, everyone was pretending.

How can I occupy such high ground? I really paid attention. I paid attention while I meditated and I paid attention listening to satsang and I paid attention to the little clues that people let on when they're pretending. I monitorred, over a long period of time, how 'knowledge' had a limited effect on my well being--that the ignoring of my emotional and mental states, and the concentration on maharaji's so-called perfection yielded little results.

When this came to light, I started to notice that other followers of the guru were also stunted and dysfunctional. In time, I could see we'd all been programmed. No one ever showed anger or sadness or fear because it wasn't acceptable. People accepted maharaji as God but no one really knew. The mass hysteria of the rumor he was God generated people's beliefs... story after story mounted... all in the distance where no one could prove or verify any of it. A special language had developed... 'this life', 'that love', 'more and more I'm seeing', 'my mind keeps bothering me, but...', 'remain detached', all the backdrop to a big lie.

No one ever got the big prize. People just kept hoping, spending all their money to blow their wad, roll the dice, on one more program. Today might be the day. After all, the guru had said it could take five minutes or five lifetimes, it's up to you.

Indeed. It was up to me to see the jig was up. I could keep laying my life down with no return, or cut my losses and get out. I'd been lying to myself, lying to others, and others had been lying to me.

That, my friend Nil, is how I know when some jackass like LoveJoy is lying. I can smell the stench of pretend. And I smell it in you.
Rick
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:08:59 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Nice work getting Nil to disintergrate into froth and nonsense.
YOU deliver!
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 15:34:37 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: thanks, Rick!
Message:
Another wake up call to barney who stuck with the programming model, you so aptly described, for twenty five goddamn years waiting, waiting for the payoff as I continually neglected myself and did not take responsibility for my actions.

Really, when you spend your last dime to go half way around the world to a program you are overriding common sense and being irresponsible.

When I got home from Rome '77 and hitchiked half way across the country on the final leg, I got in at 5:00 a.m. with 15 cents left. Sure, it was fun, but stupid.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 21:55:08 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Well maestro, you are one of the biggest idiots I've had any interaction with here. But that's your choice. I spent 20+ years 'doing nothing but following guru maharaj ji' and I have had the best time imaginable. Perhaps it was the level of bullshit you thought had to live in, e.g., you said:

'No one ever showed anger or sadness or fear because it wasn't acceptable. People accepted maharaji as God but no one really knew. '

I for one got angry regularily (surprised?) and I never believed he was God because I never understood him to be so from my own experience. So if anyone is prone to pretend, I'd say you've got a track record. Your arrogance is still a wonder to behold!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:45:45 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: yeah MJ creates mental illness
Message:
That is his special gift. Through therapy I have discovered that I am totally disintegrated. I can't even pretend to talk to myself as a friend. MJ enforced the fact that we were nothing. We were not even fit to be the dust on his shoes. He used to come on like the Lord, and I believed him; consequently, I subjected myself to years of his negative parenting. What I should not do--think, eat meat, have sex, drink (six-pack satsang), smoke (Durga Ji ranting on about smoking being pure ego), go to movies. The only thing I should do was satsang, service, meditation and darshan. (This cult trip has not changed, BTW.) I was controlled by guilt.

Of course, he also let us know that we were the ONLY TRUELY ALIVE HUMAN BEINGS on the planet, and thus, superior to non devotees. We also got complete absolution for our actions. All we had to do was start practising again.

My life has consisted of the MJ grindstone, going wild, MJ grindstone, going wild, and so on. I have ignored my own feelings for so long that I don't even feel anymore--except for ANGER.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:22:07 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: yeah MJ creates mental illness
Message:
Your message reminded me prempal saying the following:

'If I were a premie, just an ordinary premie, and not a Guru Mahara Ji, I wouldn't even think as far as going to see Him at a festival but just to be dust in his path'

I shudder to think that this used to 'bliss me out'.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:28:13 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: yeah MJ creates mental illness
Message:
Well, thank God you're not disintegrated or I'd have to go to your funeral. And you really musn't talk to yourself in any way, or they might lock you up. But you may be in better shape than you think if you can go wild. Going wild is almost as good as being balanced, which could be a myth. I know lots of people who talk about being balanced, but I don't know anyone who actually is. I think in high school I knew someone who was balanced, but that was a long time ago.

And getting angry is usually the biggest emotional challenge for a woman. Guys usually struggle to get afraid but women usually weren't taught to be macho. I've never met a woman who couldn't feel afraid or sad, so you may be doing better than you think.

After all, you think the Guru is an asshole. I'd say you're not that far from home.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 06:19:29 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: yeah MJ creates mental illness
Message:
Hey Gail

Ouch!! What a discovery! Sounds familiar.

Just wanted to say: hang in there, girl. It gets better. You will get over that mountain of negative conditioning, will learn to love and respect yourself. I didn't think I ever would but mostly I have.

Hope this doesn't sound patronising or anything. Just really wanted to give you a hug. Your post reminded me of how hard the road to freedom can be.

Diz
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:38:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
so does the pizza man.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:40:47 (EST)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
I've heard all this tiresome stuff about how M delivers so many times before. Believe me I was involved to the hilt. What he delivers is 4 common,slightly altered techniques of meditation, and a great deal of illusionary and emotional fantasy.If you think that M has given you fulfilment in your heart, I would ask you to really honestly look within yourself and ask are you really experiencing a fulfilling life where you are truly living your potential,do you really understand what its all about and are you certain that the experience you are having is directly attributable to Maharaji. Theres a lot of hype in the whole scene and it takes quite a bit of effort and courage to look beneath that and see whats really going on.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 02:54:17 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
great posts CHR
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:46:23 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
Hi everybody,

as the issue has been opened again, I have a suggestion.

I'd like to have a good bibliography (on my site - why not here too) of books (that you could buy these days) and that describe those famous secret techniques m is supposed to be the only one to 'reveal'.

Could you make a list of those books and post it here.
I think that could be extremely helpful.

I've recently read one of those: 'the tibetan book of life and death', I know there are several other.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:03:03 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
The techniques are almost identical in the radha soami Charan Singh group.Yoganandas kriya techniques are almost exactly the same.They're also found in the Satyananda yoga books.In fact most traditional hindu yoga books list these techniques. Of course they dont have the grace of the perfect master to go with them....
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:23:27 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
Would you please give me the title of the books, etc?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:32:52 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
The yogananda kriyas and the radha soami techniques are given secretly , like K. They are not published in books. However the kriya yoga techniques are sent as part of a course by the self realization fellowship.The other books are ones I have come across over the years.I will try and dig them out and get back to you.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:53:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
Here's one for you, JM. It's called 'The Breathing Book' by Donna Farhi. It's primary aim is for beter vitality but she does suggest some meditation techniques in the final chapter using the breath. Here's one everybody should find familiar. From pg. 185:

Mindfulness Practice

Sit in any position you find comfortable. Lying down is usually not a good idea as your level of attentiveness is much diminished when you are supine. Close your eyes and let the weight of your buttocks settle into the cushion or chair. Notice if you are leaning forward anticipating the next moment, or if you are leaning back reclining into the past. Center the weight on your sitting bones so that you organize yourself to be present in the moment. Allow the contents of your belly to relax and begin to bring your awareness to your breathing. It's this simple. Notice your breathing coming and going. Notice when the breath enters you and when it leaves you. Also, pay attention to the pauses between the inhalation and the exhalation. As you sense and feel your breathing, thoughts, feelings and sensations will inevitably arise. This mental activity is not a sign of failure. Note the feelings and sensations that arise in your body and heart. Detect sadness, excitement, or boredom. Be aware of the sensations arising in your body. You may feel certain areas become tense or heavy, you may notice your stomach gurgle or your heart beating. Simply note all this without analysing, judging, correting, or solving.... Can you let your breathing just be what it is? Without making it bigger, better, or different can you simply let the breath breathe you? How much can you disengage from effort and let the breath enter and leave on its own accord? Don't get caught up in a struggle with your mind. All thoughts, feelings, and sensations change. Simply allow yourself to be a sky for these drifting thoughts, returning over and over again to the steady rhythm of your breathing.


You must vow never to reveal this technique to anyone under any circumstances :)
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:30:55 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
When I was in India I did see the meditation techniques written down in a book about Kriya Yoga but that was quite a few years ago.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 12:54:43 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
The books I am for familar with don't always have each of the four techniques laid out. I read 'Secrets of the Golden Flower', a Chinese meditation text in the 70's. One of Muktananda's books describes a modified nectar technique, as do many Chinese Chi Kung texts.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 00:34:18 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Delivery: asking for your help
Message:
Reynolds, Siimon, Become Happy in Eight Minutes, Penguin Books USA (Plume), New York, 1996.

Breath, Nectar, Stimulating Thymus Gland, techniques - says he got them from ancient Chinese Practises.

I will also check out Milarapa (another of the Tibetan Books of the Dead).
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:41:22 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
The answer's, yes I have, yes it does, and yes it is.

Perhaps some of the premises' upon which your critical logic is based is different from mine. Perhaps you were caught in a 'great deal of illusionary and emotional fantasy' yoursef and you felt good when you finally got real. I can relate. But why do you guys think that being 'involved to the hilt' gives you the credentials to assume premies do not 'really honestly look' within themselves? You live in a separate reality CHR, apart from every other creature on earth. The biggest fallicy is to think your reality is any more significant than anyone elses.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:27:54 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Not in my case
Message:
Nil, I love your name. it's definitive of what I got out of Knowledge. What confuses me is how you could have got so much out of it. I can't fathom it. When I hear premies arguing on Maharaji's behalf, I can feel my brain wobbling trying to grasp the validity of what they're saying. But I can't. I'm sorry, Nil. I just can't see how some people could have got so much out of it and others so little. I will say this. Those that say they got nothing out of it do sound more real to me.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 02:42:47 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Dear Nil,
You're right that just being involved to the hilt doesn't give me the right to judge another's experience. However I'm not judging his/her experience,simply giving a perspective from my own experience that is different to the view normally given and heard in M's world. For years there was no critical forum where M and his teaching could openly be discussed. This forum has benefitted many people-both premies and exes.There are people I know personally who have been able to sort out years of doubts and confusion with help from this forum. As far as fulfilment goes, I used to say and sincerely believe that I was fulfilled.There were many times I did feel it-giving satsang,at programs, and during meditation.There were also many times when I didn't and when I pushed many aspects of myself away-including gifts and talents as well as aspects that didn't seem to fit with M's teachings or were perceived to be part of the 'mind'. This was actually what I perceived to be most premies' experience.What we saw on the satsang chair or even during satsang was not necessarily what was constant in that person's life.This was especially true of the initiators,most of whom I got to know well.They often went through times of real angst and turmoil.It was also what I observed with Maharaji-what we saw at the programs was not who he was at other times.So if you are truly fulfilled,then great, but you'd be the only premie I know of who could really honestly say that.The questions I asked were the sort of questions we and M used to ask people when they said they didn't need Knowledge-I dont think its too much to ask premies to question the same sorts of things in their own lives.I am also curious as to how you know that the experience you have is directly attributable to Maharaji.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 23:50:09 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Great post (nt)
Message:
kghnf
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 08:01:51 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
Lovejoy

You hoping that BM reads this, you get brownie points, and maybe
he offers you a place in his inner circle? ;-)
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:10:41 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: Sure he does
Message:
He's the Best.

You obviously don't know who you're talking to on this forum, LoveJoy. For us Maharaji HASN'T DELIVERED! That's why we're here. Because he sucks!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 19:43:56 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
So i can see from your post that you believe prempal has givren you something wonderful.

Does that mean anything he does or says is unquestionable?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:59:15 (EST)
From: y?
Email: None
To: LoveJoy
Subject: yeah but he delivers!
Message:
That wouldn't be the David Lovejoy in Australia would it? Probably just Love Joy in general eh?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:10:28 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: all
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
Sorry about the spelling of alcohol-I was tired and weary at the time-well thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 09:40:39 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
chr,

thanks. This is the first time I have read a post with a firsthand account of Maharaji's drinking. I've read the allegations and have accepted them as true, but have had some reservations.

Could you elaborate:

Was the time or times you saw Maharaji drinking isolated incidents or chronic?

Was it a social drinking?

How intoxicated was he?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:51:37 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
The first time I came in contact with M's drinking was in 1975. I was doing security on the floor of his hotel room .By a trick of fate, I and another premie had to clean up and we saw things I assume we weren't supposed to-namely several crates of empty alcohol bottles. We were hit pretty hard by it at the time and came up with all sorts of explanations from the usual lila rubbish to even convincing ourselves that he had emptied all the bottles down the sink, knowing that we would see them and that it would give our minds a hammering.
Later on,mainly in the late 70s, I just accepted that M drank-by that time I was pretty much unquestioning. M had periodic parties at residences and there was always drink there. Mainly I heard M, rather than saw him-usually from the end of a long driveway. He could become very loud when he was drinking.He was usually very quiet-almost shy and insecure,so perhaps the drinking helped him come out of himself.One time that stands out was hearing his slurred voice at a party very loudly proclaiming,' I'm gonna do it! I'm gonna do it!' What it was he was going to do ,I never did find out. Others such as Mr.Ex( is he still around?) have seen more and spoken about it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 09:32:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Cognac etc
Message:
I've been a part of teams of premies bringing him gallons of fine Cognac from France at intl events.

I can even tell you which one:
as far as I can remember, he used to love Marnier Lapostolle, and I've also puchased some special brands I don't remember now.

He even once answered that he loved the one I'd offered. I was happy ....

Ah yes, the excuse was for such quantities, that he was having 'parties' with friends, and that he would offer them those bottles. Any PAM to confirm?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 14:35:47 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Drip, Drip, Drip (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:49:28 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
Hi Chr

I think there's two issues here, re 'delivery':

WHAT does he deliver? and

HOW does he deliver?

For me, MJ delivered a meditation which was loving, peaceful, something I really enjoyed. He also had a hand in delivering quite a bit of chaos in my 'worldly' life, as I and others around me strove to do as much s,s and m as possible, and get to as many programs as possible. He also delivered a lot of words, many of which I did not find helpful, as they pointed me towards the importance of the internal experience and away from the importance of other aspects of myself, and my life. In the end, the benefits didn't outway the disadvantages for me. I've been surprised to discover that I feel more stable, happier and more at home with myself, other people, and life in general since I stopped having to do with MJ, and his meditation.

Still, I can understand what LoveJoy is saying, in the context of the topic under discussion. MJ says he'll deliver an internal experience of peace, and for many, or at least some of us, he did/does. In that sense, he isn't a fraud. However he's also undertaken to deliver world peace (I had forgotten how explicit that undertaking was, until Jim posted excerpts from the Millenium program/satsangs. I, like many other premies I suspect, had translated the 'world peace' promise into 'I will give people around the world the opportunity to experience internal peace'), salvation (whatever that is), a retreat open to all premies all the time at Amaroo...ie a few things which he either hasn't delivered or which one could debate about. Plus, for some people, the promise of internal peace didn't come through - I don't doubt that Jerry and Gerry put in the effort for no effect. I can remember sitting in K reviews with premies who weren't experiencing anything. So, maybe it would be accurate to say he delivered some of what he promised to some of the people he promised it to.

The question of whether what he delivered was unique to him, or whether he was necessary for its delivery, is another question which others have taken up.

As to HOW he delivers: obviously this could be done in a variety of ways. It could, for example, involve small groups of people discussing their experience and its value and place in their lives. MJ could set the tone for these discussions by emphasising that no one's experience was superior to anyone else's, and that each person had to find their own understanding as to how to fit - or not fit - their internal experience into the rest of their lives. Instead, he's chosen a very didactic manner in which to convey HIS understanding of the value of K, what its priority should be in the lives of premies, and what implications it should have for what premies do. Conveniently, premies - or a reasonable number of them - accept this presentation as the way it should be, and put K, MJ and his work at the centre of their lives. This conveniently means that MJ has a lot of dollars coming his way. The 'MJ as primary presenter of K' has also meant the need for 'events', vidoes, phone/video feeds. At events, I understand that there's quite a bit of mechandice for sale. Again, that isn't a necessary part of the presentation. Nor are big houses a necessity. When does the fact that the WAY MJ chooses to present K has lots of material spin-offs for him start to constitute 'fraud'? I don't know. I do think that both MJ and the premies are very good at rationalising the material and power benefits which MJ reaps from the way he choses to spread K.

Diz
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 02:04:24 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
Hi Diz,
As well as what he delivers and how he delivers , I think its important to look at his claims about what he delivers and especially about himself as the deliverer.As you're probably aware I also enjoyed meditation. Most premies had some sort of experience in meditation.There's a lady I know who teaches meditation-she uses a variety of methods including some of M's techniques.From all reports people love it- they seem to have a peaceful and fulfilling experience. However,she doesn't claim she is the source of the experience,that she is god, that it is by her grace that it manifests in their lives,or that the experience is not available elsewhere. Neither does she ask for devotion,dedication and copious amounts of money to support her ' work in the world'.I don't deny that M delivers something-but I believe that he is fraudulent in the way he relates himself to what he delivers and the the programming that occurs around himself and K. cheers, chr
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Date: Tues, Feb 09, 1999 at 07:09:03 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
Chr
Hi Chr

I'd like to meet your friend - her approach certainly sounds like a big advance on MJ's.

I guess it gets down to a question of semantics, but it is still possible that MJ really believes he is the only source of the experience, god incarnate, etc., and that he therefore deserves the devotion, dedication etc. If so, it could be argued that he isn't strictly speaking a fraud. Now, I don't know what he really believes about himself. If he does believe all that stuff, it's pretty extreme. BUT he was brought up to it, he is surrounded by people who reinforce it, he doesn't seek or get feedback, he has a huge vested interest in continuing to believe it....so seems to me it's possible that he is indeed 'sincere' in that sense.

Whether that's a GOOD thing is another question. As I've said before, I think a conscious fraud is probably less dangerous, and more likely to change his ways, than an unconscious but severely deluded and isolated person. If you believe you're god, then you need never question anything you do. You can ignore any feedback that your words and actions are producing problems. You can come across with supreme confidence - which is very convincing. If anyone gets damaged, you can be absolutely sure it's their fault, not yours in any way.

Don't get me wrong, Chr. I am SO GLAD not to be subject to that set of beliefs (MJ as the only way etc.) any more. I think the way MJ relates himself to what he delivers is definitely harmful. It all came wrapped as a single package: accept a positive experience from K, and you had to accept the whole lot - Mj as Master, Mj as definer of life's purpose and priorities, Mj's understanding as superior to yours. Unwrapping that package, chosing what to keep and what to throw away, is the ex-premie's task, and it surely wasn't made easier by anything MJ ever said. This is a whole topic in itself. I've been thinking, though, that it's a crying shame that for so many of us, any easy approach to spirituality has been pretty much killed by our experiences with MJ and the trappings he's placed around the experience of K. He asked for our hearts, put himself in the role of the one who knew what was what in relation to OUR spirituality. I know I still haven't reclaimed that. Some people have. Many others have thrown the whole idea of spirituality out the window - and who's to blame them? If there is such a thing as 'spiritual abuse' it must have something to do with taking over ownership of someone else's sense of soul.

So good on your friend. I suspect many new-age type teachers do not consider the ethics of what they're doing. Well, neither do various helping professionals. But at least there's a vocal movement which points out that those who dare to assist other people to be happy, reach their potential or whatever, should be very conscious of their motivations for helping, and be on guard at all times to the power issues inherent in the helper/helpee, teacher/student relationship.

Diz
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 13:31:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: fraud etc
Message:
I think the issue of Maharaji as a fraud is pretty key to this whole discussion. Of course, as Lovejoy shows, until you deal with your own experience, or lack thereof, it's not really an issue. Once you realize that neither knowledge nor Maharaji deliver what they are supposed to, then you can get to the question of whether he's just deluded or he knowingly peddles nonsense.

But this is what I think. I think Guru Maharaj Ji was basically sincere in the early years. I think he took seriously what he thought his mission was, as programmed into him by his father and the rest of his family, not to mention the Mahatmas and other premies who had a vested interest in Prem Pal being the perfect master, as opposed to one of his brothers, or somebody else. Many people were on the guru gravy train in the beginning, and, of course, that continued among westerners later, many of whom, we have heard, have made fortunes 'serving' Maharaji, whether they had any respect for him or not. They had a vested interest in him carrying on as 'the master.'

But then, there was a gradual change, and since Maharaji isn't an idiot, he began to see that he wasn't perfect and although he really enjoyed being in the West, with all the toys and money that offered, and he arranged to stay there by marrying Marolyn and securing a following here, he also knew that things weren't working, that he had drinking and marital problems, and that the tidal wave of people coming to follow him had dried up. So, after rejecting, in 1976, fessing up to the premie who he really was, he became an out and out concsious fraud, and in fact INCREASED is role in the whole cult by demanding 100% devotion and surrender to him, something that had only been alluded to prior to that.

And clearly that cynical, self-serving, deceptive, 'change' with no explanation whatsoever, in 1983, is the clearest example that he is an out and out fraud, at least at that point, with no morals or sense or responsibility whatsoever. It became clear then that the premies were nothing other than: 1)a source of income and, 2)a group of people, some of whom would continue to worship Maharaji, so that he could continue to maintain his fantasies that he was some kind of special master, whether perfect or not. In private, he would disdain and make fun of the premies, while at programs he got off on the adulation. And I think these days he's trying to hold on to as much of that trip as he can, fraudulently. That's about it if you ask me.

So, I think he migrated from delusion to deliberate fraud. And I think even these days, he slips back into delusion, maybe at programs, during darshan lines, or whatever.

About his drinking, I have heard from more than one premie who worked in the inner circle around Maharaji that he drank like a fish, at least until the late 80s, and that cognac was the drug of choice. They also said, also in the late 80s, that he was having adulterous affairs outside his marriage, and that Marolyn had a few as well. Apparently they had an agreement that they had an 'open' marriage. All of this, of course was carefully hidden from the premies, but I'm pretty sure these days that his drinking and adultery flaws are pretty much common knowledge among the premies. Rarely have I heard a premie even deny the truth of those allegations.

Look, Maharaji is a complicated read because of his weird past, but, basically, aside from NOT being who he claims to be, he's also not even a very nice person.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 23:29:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Great post
Message:
An open marriage, eh? We all know how well those work out.Remember that book back in the 60's 'Open marriage'? It was all the rage in a lot of the marriages of my parents' generation. Guess how many of those marriages lasted? Usually it was the husband who wanted the open marriage arrangement. 'Gee honey I have this great new idea!! I'll fuck around while you raise the kids WHoo hoo!!'
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:08:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Win For The Forum
Message:
We've talked a lot about what good this website does to help support people coming out of the cult, and to spread information about what Maharaji has really done and is really doing, but I want to point out that this website has also served as a means of bringing people together.

As many of you know, two ex-premies, one of whom is one of my best friends from the cult and after, who posted here as 'Joy,' met, through this website, fell in love, and are getting married. I just heard from Joy and the wedding date as been set for April 17. Joy is really a great person and I'm very happy for her and Alan as well.

So far from this website being some source of hate and anger, it's really a source of bringing people together, literally in this case.

Joy has already relocated from the states to England, but she checks in occasionally, and I know she and Alan would appreciate any good wishes you might want to send.

Congratulations guys, and thanks to all the people who made this website happen.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:12:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Attention British Exes
Message:
I'm going over for Joy's wedding in April, so any of you Brits who would like to get together for tea, or something stronger, while I'm there, that would be great. You can e-mail me and I can give you more details if you are interested.

I think I'll have a car, so I can be mobile, even though I sometimes have trouble driving on the 'wrong' side of the road. [Joy still reminds me of the time I turned ON to the OFF ramp of a freeway in Belfast. I really felt my heartbeat throug THAT one, and it made the possibility of being bombed in Belfast seem like no threat at all.]
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 22:29:19 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: -(OT)-george carlin live
Message:
JW did you see George Carlin live sat night at 10est?
You would have liked it.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 16:24:55 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Another Win For The Forum
Message:
Thanks JW. That was good to hear.
The Forum has many aspects. I've fallen 'in love' in few times myself :) Not seriously like that of course.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 13:07:45 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Joy and Alan
Subject: Congratulations
Message:
Good for you two!!!

I'm so glad that something like this can happen and that we are able to keep for ourselves some of the good which we worked so hard to create.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 13:57:55 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Beautiful Hebrew(OT)
Message:
For some reason I couldn't post to you down below. omething to do with the index.

Ok here's one of my favourite Hebrew phrases.

If you want to say something like 'I like you' in correct hebrew it would be 'Ut moshet chen beaynay' which translated means 'You find favour in my eyes' it can also be translated as 'You find grace in my eyes'

Now there's something beautiful.

Meuh brachot ul harosh shelach (100 bkessings upon your head)

Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 18:22:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Beautiful Hebrew(OT)
Message:
I'm fainting with rapture!! Talk to me some more!!Now that there is one beautiful language
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:01:13 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Thanks for your support to my previous post. Now, perhaps
some of you have good suggestions how to deal with a very serious
problem of mine:

As I told you yesterday, my previous wife was absolutely obsessed with M.,
which drove our marriage into complete hell. I was a premie, too,
but I didn't swallow everything, and at one point the whole thing
just became too much. Followed divorce, splitting the kids
(two daughters) between us. My personal life is now ok, have
new wife, job etc.

But, of the two daughters, one cannot stand religion, she
absolutely hates everything 'spiritual'. The other, however,
has joined a cult.

She has been into this thing about two-three years now. She lives
at some strange farm in the mountains in another nation, but she
says absolutely nothing about what it is that she practises, who
she lives with, how they earn money. I know it is some kind of
meditation, they're strict vegetarians, and live a very austere life.

Now, she's on a visit, but she stays for herself in another flat
with another cult member, doesn't answer questions,
has lost weight and looks very miserable,
though she doesn't realize it herself. Her eyes are
glowing from meditation, but her soul seems wounded.
Soon she will go back to this strange place in the mountains,
live on vegetables that they grow, and meditate.

We're of course very worried and wonder how to deal with this.
She's a very brilliant kid, she could have a marvellous future and career,
but her health is clearly deteriorating, and she's withdrawing from
all contact. If you talk to her, she closes
her eyes and meditates. If you ask her anything about the cult
or how they live, she doesn't answer. Sounds familiar?
She doesn't even say what cult it is.

We're afraid that if she goes back, we'll loose her altogether, or
that she might get really ill.

We're afraid that if we try to 'deprogram' her too roughly, we might
loose all contact with her. But something has to be done.
Any good advice? This group of people should be the experts.

H.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:03:07 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Shee-it, Happy, that's one hell of a situation. Don't know how much good advice I can offer. But you've sure got my sympathy and best wishes.

From what I've read, the main advice to parents of kids in cults is not to cut them off, to keep as much of a normal connection with them as possible. Sounds like you're doing this already. 'Normal connection' might include talking about good things from their childhood, asking non-cult people they knew from the past over to dinner with them, going to a movie or the beach or some place where everyone can just have a simple good time.

Probably I'm not telling you anything new here.

What about talking about your understanding of what happened to you with MJ? If she's into some different cult, then maybe she can be left to draw the parallels. I know it was a real eye-opener for me to read a couple of books by ex-Moonies - Steve Hassan's book Combatting Cult Mind Control and The Dark Side of the Moonies (?author) were two I read - both tell the story of cult involvement in a very readable (and for me, shockingly relatable) way. If she's not a Moonie, then she mightn't have barriers to reading them - maybe even just having some literature like that lying around, if you felt actually giving it to her would be too blatant/likely to be rejected.

What would happen if you openly told her of your fears, told her how much you love her, told her you didn't want to lose her from your life? Have you done this already? I guess the danger is that she'll see even that as your trying to take her away from the cult, and could send her running....

In retrospect, I think the best thing my parents did for me was to keep treating me with love and respect. They did drop the odd hint as to what they thought of my involvement - my dad once said, when I was explaining what a wonderful FEELING I got from meditation and thus how important it was 'Really, darling, a FEELING.' Got me thinking about how important my having a good feeling was in the wider scheme of things. But the main thing was, I knew they were there, and that they loved me even though they didn't approve of what I was doing. So when things did start getting tough, I knew I could count on their support.

I feel like the above is pretty trite. But maybe it'll spark some ideas in you, even if they're the opposite to what I've suggested!

There's a mob called the American Family Foundation who may be of some assistance - they've certainly got brochures about what to do in your situation. They're in Bonita Springs, Florida, and their phone number is (212)533-5420.

Best wishes, Happy,

Diz
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 06:32:45 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Thanks for the advice. I have mentioned my own experiences
with M, which she acknowledges. Once, as a 6-year old,
she asked her mother whom she loved the most (expecting herself
to be the answer) her mother answered: 'Maharaji', which shocked her.
That was an eye-opener - her mother loved the guru more than her own
child. So, she has been very cautious with M, and never tried
to receive K.

But somehow, she cannot connect that she herself is into a cult.
There, the blinders are on. But, getting literature on cults is a
good idea. But not to drown her in anti-cult literature, of course.

H.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:17:52 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Diz and anybody
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
By the way, it's not the moonies. It's somekind
of strange mixture of yoga,natural farming, seclusive life -
I think Yogananda and Babaji are, if not gurus, at least
admired - but I think it is a very strange mix, a small cult
of its own. Which makes it all the more dangerous,
because you can never tell which way it develops.
And she says absolutely nothing about what it is. Not one
single word. She just says that she doesn't want to talk about it.
Actually, she speaks very little, only closes her eyes and goes into
herself, or looks the other way. It is scary.

H
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 07:35:14 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Yeah, I can imagine its scary. Even a conversion attempt would be easier to deal with - you'd at least know something about what she was into.

I guess that I probably did something of the same type of thing to people in my family, 'going inside' rather than responding at times.

Might you be able to find out more info if you got in touch with people in the geographic area where the group is located? I know professionals with an understanding of cults are pretty thin on the ground, but it might be worthwhile, in terms of 'systems level' action, to try to find a counsellor or non-fundy priest or rabbi who has an understanding of cult dynamics. You might at least find out a bit more about the group, and perhaps gain an ally for if and when your daughter wants out... Again, there would be issues of trust to consider. She probably wouldn't take it too kindly if she thought you were spying on her.

It's a good sign that she has visited you. Some cults wouldn't even allow that.

Jeez, Happy, I feel very inadequate. I'm sure others will have some ideas - hey x, where are you??

Diz
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:07:17 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Well, I guess there really are no easy solutions. I'm happy for
any suggestions. I anyway feel that with all the experiences
we have from OUR cult, there's quite a bit of expertise here
among us, maybe more than anywhere else. Thanks, Diz.
I'm going home now - I email from my work - I'll check later
if somebody else has other good suggestions.

H.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:19:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Dear H.O. -
First, I'm really sorry that you have to go through this. It must be doubly agonizing to you because you freed yourself from a similar situation. Also, your descriptions of your daughter's health sound alarming. The situation does remind me of what many premies did to their parents - very sad.

I thought that Diz gave some really good advice. We have a little advice on this subject on site (not much, really), but here's the link to it:

help for family and friends

I like the quote by Bob Mishler on that page a lot - I've found it helpful. I also recommend the Trancenet FAQ page. I'm not sure where you live, but perhaps you could find someone in your part of the world who knows something more about this community your daughter is living in. But as you said, there are no easy answers. I'm hoping that other people on the site may have more suggestions. Also, I think that just the support you can get from posting here might be helpful to you.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:26:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
HO,

That's a terrible situation. I have no idea what you can do if she's unwilling to discuss things with you. That might well just leave you with the old 'let-them-know-that-you're-there-for-them' strategy.

On the other hand, if she's amenable to discussion on general, perhaps only collaterally-related subjects, you might try a long, educational approach. By that I mean you might try to kindle an interest in science in her. I'm not sure how exactly. But I do see science as being an incredibly powerful antidote to cult thinking. Why? Two reasons. One, science informs us about the real history of the world and our species. We can actually learn about how consciousness and the brain have developed and get away from all that stupid Hindu nonsense once and for all. Two, science is based on critical thinking, knowledge of which any cult member has either lost, forgotten or, perhaps more likely, never had in the first place.

That might seem like a long row to hoe but when I think back on my own entanglement I can't help but believe that if only I'd been really confronted with some of this knowledge while in the cult I REALLY would have had a good basis for doubt. As it was, however, I had no real frame of reference for questioning Maharaji. Life might as well have come from a creator, a force I understood would necessarily be so powerful it really did seem arrogant to try to second-guess or limit conceptually. Doubting Maharaji was often just a matter of wondering if maybe Yogananda was the 'real guru' or stuff like that. That's not much of a basis for escape.

If you're thinking of books for yourself or her, I've often said that the best one I've seen by far is The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad.

Good luck.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 18:48:00 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Would your daugher listen to you regarding your involvement with MJ. You could tell her all about it: your feelings, your ex-wife's involvment, the divorce, the fantisism, etc. Just be real. Assure her that you don't know what she is into, but that you have seen many people, yourself included, hurt by the fallout of a cult.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:45:40 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
The best advice I can think of is don't approach this alone. If you do it'll be a tug-of-war between you and her which most likely will exaserbate the situation. Get help, or more correctly support from others who have a sound focus. Friends of your daughters, who are not involved in the cult, as well as gentle professionals. Develop a formal helping system, ie. professionals, and a informal helping system, ie. friends, relatives, etc. Example; This ex-premie website is as a informal support system for people who have left maharaji. Don't operate in a vacumme. If you talk with drug and alcohol counselors they generally have a family intervention dynamic that is used with addicts, and after all when you are dealing with people in a cult, you are dealing with an addiction. Look at your daughter as someone who is on a drug (the cult) and the effects of the drug has blurred her perspective. Do not confront her to harshly, you'll push her away. And do get help in approaching her, if you do it alone you're going to be the villian. Further, frequently let her know that you love her and, as eariler mentioned, share your cult experience with maharaji with her (gently). From what I've read in your posts, your daughter is in a very fragile and dangerous place right now, and you need to get ammunition (support) to help you with this battle. To tell you alittle about me; I am an ex-premie with approx. 30 years experience working in the field of psychotherapy, mostly with addictive behaviors, and we all have them. Relationship addictions, etc. A cult is a subculture within a larger culture
and addiction is its hook, usually they appeal to people by putting-down the larger culture including one's own family, claiming they can offer more then family, the larger culture, etc.
Gently point out (to your daughter) the beauty of your being free of maharaji and as a last resort, diplomaticly ask her if you can attend her cult meeting out of your own personal interest, and get as much information as possible on her cult, whether you attend or not. It's good to know your enemy, remember this is battle. It is a battle for the heart and soul of your daughter. I am not and expert on this topic, this is not my area of expertise, but I hope I've given you some useful suggestions. Good Luck.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Really good advice, SAM (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:25:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Happily Out
Subject: Not popular, but it works
Message:
Dear H,

First, my deepest sympathies.

You say her health is in danger. This is a situation which demands extraordinary action. If it were my kid, I would call up someone like Ted Patrick who would deprogram her in a hurry. Screw the niceties. Get the job done. This isn't something to play footsie about. Books or chatting aren't gonna get your girl back for you. If you need help in contacting this type of organization, let me know and I'll do some research for you.

PS I know there is going to be a huge outcry against this idea, but you need to take immediate action now that she is within reach. You don't put a bandaid on cancer.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:29:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Not popular, but it works
Message:
Dear Happy and Gerry,
I do agree with Gerry, mainly because your daughter is here now and will be gone, and I assume lost to you physically, soon.
What a nightmare for you Happy, I am so sorry. How long will she be near you? I am just assuming it won't be long. Did she have to come with another cult member or are there some near where you live?
They have to make their own mistakes don't they, they can't learn from the mistakes we've made. That has been a hard lesson for me with my 17 yr. old.
All the best.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:38:04 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not popular, but it works
Message:
Actually gerry, I was thinking the same thing. Especially after watching that 'Signs and Wonders' PBS show.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 17:46:11 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: gerry, HO
Subject: Not popular, but it works
Message:
Gerry, Happy

From what I've read, the old-style 'deprogramming' is no longer used, instead there are people who specialise in 'exit counselling'.

If you did want to check out this option, Happy, I think the American Family Foundation I mentioned before could give you some leads. Their purpose is to support people in understanding and getting free from cult involvement - doesn't really come across in the name. I think they're pretty solid in their approach.

One person I've heard of who does exit counselling is Patrick Ryan. I've got an address for him, don't know how current it is - PO Box 2520, Philadephia, PA. 19147. I spoke to him once or twice when I was in the throes of sorting myself out about MJ. He seemed like a nice bloke, but knew next to nothing about MJ. In fact, after talking to him I was left with the impression that I was almost the only person who had ever had problems with MJ. I wonder if he's aware of this web-site? Have any other exes had contact with him, or with the AFF? If not, we really ought to make that link.

Happy, I was thinking about what you said about your daughter's spiritual needs being met, but her soul being unhappy. That was just how I felt with MJ, but it took me a long time to identify it. Some books that helped me: Thomas Moore's Care of the Soul, Sam Keen's Hymns to an Unknown God. Both books by adults for adults, however, I think. One other thought along these lines: some of the Hermann Hesse books explore this issue (spirit/soul) - Narcissus and Goldmund, and The Glass Bead Game. I loved Hesse as a teenager - don't know if kids still read him today.

Love, Diz
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:57:24 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: AFF: I've been in touch
Message:
with them.

They now have a website, and advertise this site and mine.
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Date: Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 10:07:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Exit counseling: Info-Cult
Message:
A person who several people on this site have recommended highly is Mike at Info-Cult in Montreal. He knows about the ex-premie thing, and has even referred people to the forum (a big compliment to us). He does exit counseling for a fee over the phone and works with people all over the world. I don't have a phone number or an address, but perhaps Gail, Nimrod, or someone else here would know one.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: HO
Subject: Advice
Message:
Here's my advice:

Love her unconditionally

Tell her you're proud of her that she isn't shallow and is looking beneath the surface for the deeper things in life

Emphasize how a strong body is important to spiritual life: give her vitamins and make her favorite foods when she comes home. Send her food care packages and cookbooks

Write her letters, call her on the phone, and ask her her opinions on everything from the situation with Clinton to the music she used to like.

Send her books, but not necessarily heavy tomes--fun novels, and the like.

Try to revive some of the things she was formerly interested in and send her books and articles on those subjects.

As Diz said--keep the connection going--whatever it takes
Best wishes to you
Love,
Helen
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:59:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Good advice needed
Message:
Hello HO

I once went to 'rescue' a friend of mine who was caught in a small cult of cocaine-addicts. They had a charismatic leader who had a small group of followers who were alot younger than him.

Basically what I did was break into their flat(apartment) during one of their sessions and verbally confronted their leader.
This seemed to break the spell my friend was caught in. She left with me that day of her own volition and has lead a fruitful life since.

To be honest I was prepared to use violence on their leader, but nothing like that happened. Anyway afew weeks later the guy choked on his own vomit.

I realise that every situation is different. Some have told me that I was crazy to do such thing, but I would do it again.
I am not sure that this will help you, but you may as well hear all angles until you decide what your own approach will be.

All the best
Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:01:21 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Out
Subject: Love her and let her alone
Message:
Why not let your daughter live her life as she chooses?

You are her father, not her keeper. Not since she became an adult.

Love her and respect her free will and choice to choose her own path(s) in this life.

Try to force her, and you may lose her forever.

Respect her, I mean real respect, and let her know that you are there for her if she ever needs you. If you will do that, she will turn to you when and if she discovers she is unhappy with her environment.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:29:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Hap
Subject: Love her and let her alone
Message:
Just to let you know, red heart is a hard core premie cult member.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:33:45 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Happily out
Subject: Here's what I did
Message:
Dear HO, I'm having a few difficulties myself these days so I don't get much opportunity to write much but here's what I would advise after reading your post.

This post is not a joke and I mean what I say sincerely. There are two things you could do which I think will help. First, join her cult, at least in a periferal sense. SHe knows you've been into meditation etc so tell her you'd like to check her thing out and join her. This may be better than opposing her which could drive her away. Go along to the cult's meetings, meet some of the people there and make friends with them. Get on the inside rather than being on the outside and critisising her.

Instead of appearing distant, when she meditates, meditate (or pretend to) with her and say how you feel a bond with her. Go along to the cult's meetings and meditate with them. Look, THIS REALLY WORKS because I did it myself to get a friend out of the Hari Krishna cult. I went along and chanted Hari Krishna with them all and was like a spy. I appeared completely innocuous to them and they let me into their confidence and so did my friend too. She eventually opened up to me and told me how miserable she was in the Krishna cult. I practised subtifuge and deception and pretended to go along with everyone - a softly softly approach. The end result was that I stole my friend away from that cult, within a week.

It may take longer for you to get through to your daughter but you have to join her first, in order that she can relate to you. This is the only way I know that you can help someone who is in a mess. You have to join them in the mess yourself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:54:40 (EST)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Sir David & Happy
Subject: Here's what I did
Message:
I hope things are not too difficult for you at the moment, Sir David. As far as the cult goes,Happy, it may help to remember how you felt when you became involved with M-what you were hoping for,why you became involved,what sort of things you were able to hear ,what sort of approach just drove you more into Ms web etc.My daughter ,who is now 26,has been through all sorts of things.I deserted her for the ashram when she was very little. She came back and lived with me for her teenage years,after the ashrams had closed. I blamed myself for a long time for her troubles-she had a pretty mixed up childhood during the heady DLM years. Ultimately all one can do is love sincerely and always be there.Certainly I would check it out thoroughly and at least become familiar with what its all about.
Hope it all works out,chr.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:53:10 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Here's what I did
Message:
Sir David,
You're a cheeky fellow and a damn good actor, as well. But how can we ever trust you, now that we know what kind of stunts you'll pull to justify your ends?

By the way, they now have BBC on satellite television in America. Two shows in particular are puzzling--one is of driving lessons. Yes, driving lessons. They film people from the inside of the motorcar having driving lessons. The instructor says 'Ok, now turn left' and the driver turns left, etc.? What's that bloody all about, anyway?

Then there's another gem called 'One Man's Dog' about dogs that herd sheep. It's an hour long program of dogs chasing sheep through pastures. They air it twice a day. Just dogs chasing sheep for an hour.
Rick
Rick
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 00:10:28 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick Rick
Subject: Here's what I did
Message:
No, really, this is to Dave:

Dave, your plan is either a sign of genius (as in hmmm...this could really work) or you've been meditating again and will soon join John Hammond Smyth in the loony bin...

Seriously though, do you think she would confide in her dad like your friend confided in you?

At any rate, bravo for your bravery and effectiveness with your friend and hope things go well for you.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:02:51 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Houston program
Message:
Jim

I don't have an email for you and my message yesterday has scrolled off already so I am posting it again today as it is very important to me. Here we go:

Jim,
That is extremely interesting and useful background info. Is there any possibility that you could photocopy (xerox) the whole thing and send it to me? I have plenty of US stamps so I could repay the entire cost in that way if that would be OK with you. Email me at the above address if you're into it.

Syd
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 14:35:19 (EST)
From: a messenger
Email: canstop@juno.com
To: syd
Subject: Houston program
Message:
Hopefully, 'M' will NOT come to Texas..there are those
here that do NOT wish his presence in this state and
will do all they can to prevent him from coming here!!
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 23:43:25 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: a messenger
Subject: Houston program
Message:
I was referring to m's visit in 1973 to the Houston Astrodome.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 16:30:16 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Houston program
Message:
A funny story syd. We left PA and headed south. The goal to reach Houston for the festival of festavals. I dont' know, it was, at least in memory, one of the most idyllic of road trips. We took our time, I was with my husband and 2 babies, ages 6 mo. and 18 mo. (I know I was crazy)
We stopped a lot at lakes, campgrounds that were nice. I was having fun! I was 19 and this was the first time in my life I felt pretty, loved and safe in our little camper.
Anyway to make this shorter, we made it to Houston a week late! Missed the most significant event in the history of mankind.
And still it was fun. They let us stay in the mansion they had paid for for 3 months. I think for the Mahatmas. It was one of those gorgeous southern places. You couldn't even tell it was in Houston. I played with my babies and wandered all the rooms. Premies came and took me to the beach.
I think I had a much better time than any of the Millenium attendees, don't you?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 01:25:46 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Journeys
Message:
Two new Journeys entries are online: Dennis Marcellino and Way.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 19:29:13 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: New Journeys
Message:
Dennis is a bit generous to say dlm wasn't acompletely ,mature
organization.

The jist of his message is 'our continueing awareness of
our position in the universe'
I cant say what that is because that is in the book.

and he is willing to tell us 'why god made the planet and humans
and what we need to accomplish here to adequately prepare for a
higher perfectly functional existance in heaven.'

He should post on the forum and see how he does in this
crowd!
If he can handle this crowd honestly and without avoidance,
that would be a show.
I'll invite him to come incognito.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 19:04:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Dennis and Way
Subject: New Journeys-Thank you, both!
Message:
Thanks for your journeys' entries.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 14:44:41 (EST)
From: Happily out
Email: None
To: Nil & Co
Subject: What do you mean, hate-group?
Message:
Nil,

I read this forum regularly, but I usually don't write,
cause I don't feel the need to. But now I feel so upset with
your accusations of this being a hate-group that I can't keep
silent. First, how can you generalize like this?
Some might hate, others don't. Some hate sometimes, some hate
all the time, some not at all. I dont feel hate, not anymore,
but there has been times that I hated. I got out of this 15 years ago,
and I'm still angry and upset when I see people who are so blindfolded
that they can't see what their into, like you seem to be. I personally
lost my family due to my wife's obsession with Maharaji, and my kids had their childhood
destroyed, dragged around the world to crazy festivals. All our money went to festival trips
and donations for years, i.e. down the drain. I lost almost ten years
of my career. I friend of mine hanged himself, because he felt
he was a disgrace to Maharji. Another donated everything he
owned, a large sum he inherited. I think he at least feels hate
now. And what about all those who dedicated themselves
wholeheartedly in the ashram for ten years, Maharaji promising
to care for 'all their needs', and then he just threw them all out?
Don't they have reason to hate? Still, I think most don't, but
feel angry mostly with ourselves that we were so gullible.

Maharaji uses up $ 50.000,- a day, and shits only in golden
toilets. Don't you think it's a little too much, do you really it's just his 'lila'?
Open your eyes.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 17:25:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: What do you mean, hate-group?
Message:
Thanks happily out. It's good to know that you are part of the forum even if you don't post.

I think a lot of people confuse righteous healthy normal anger with hate. Of course a lot of us were totally out of touch with our emotions and our ability to judge when our brains were hijacked for awhile.

Man, I'm sorry about your kids and wife, your career, adn your friend who hanged himself. And Nil and his ilk wonder why there is anger expressed here.

I'd much rather see it expressed here in a safe place than have it acted out in our relationships or on ourselves.

Take care and watch out for men who shit in gold toilets!
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 19:50:15 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: Hi
Message:
Dear Happily Out

Just wanted to say hi, glad the forum is of some benefit to you. Sounds like you had it pretty rough for a while there - hope things have looked up for you and your family over more recent years.

Personally, I don't feel hate. In fact, the more I get my life back on track without MJ, the more the whole thing is becoming emotionally neutral for me. Which may be reflection of my tendency to see things from a pretty personal point of view - selfish on my part? - as I understand what you're saying about being upset for those who are still caught up. I think the main thing is that the other side is presented, so people who have not yet received K can make an informed choice about whether to go ahead. And so those premies who are questionning their involvement have access to alternative points of view as they sort out whether they want to stay, and if they do leave, have some support. Some people who leave MJ don't feel they've suffered any damage at all. Others, like me, go through a lot on leaving. It took me years to overcome the hurt and fear I felt (I never did get all that angry, as I tend to think MJ is sincere, but very unconscious and closed to feedback, in what he's doing.)

If perchance you don't post much because you don't want to 'go public', there's lots of opportunities to interact with other exes by e-mail. Some people put their address on their posts or their journey entries, others, like me, can be contacted through Katie.

Best wishes, HO.

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 20:17:10 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Happily out
Subject: This is what I mean
Message:
I know where you're coming from and am glad you're happy. I'm very happy too and I can't understand how you guys could have missed the real point. That's OK. I think it's pathetic you'd blame Maharaji for decisions other premies made. You could always say they could have been more, financially, socially, etc., if they'd made other decisions but for God's sake their life is their responsibility, and NOBODY twisted their arm. And you're not in a position to say where you would have been if... could have been a dung-heap for all you know. Maharaji has always encouraged consciousness in one's life. He's also warned that it's not an easy path... after all it's been called a razor's edge. You were game at one time, and then you stopped being so. That is not HIS fault. His message to your heart is still clean; but you stopped listening to it in favor of listening to his life-style. It's great you don't hate him or get into verbally abusing premies. Others here do.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:00:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: You don't mean anything
Message:
Nil,

You're thick as a brick. I hate YOU, if that's any assistance.

Anyway, this whole thing about 'hate groups' is dumb. Dumb, dumb, DUMB! What's a hate group anyway? A hate group is a group of people who incite and wallow in hatred of some other group of people for no good reason. It's that last part that properly characterizes hate groups.

Think of it this way. A lot of people are very exercised about Pinochet, right? A lot of Chileans want to see the guy extradited at least and preferably drawn and quartered. Do they constitute a hate group? Of course not. Not if they're justified hating him to begin with.

That point is so obvious I'm convinced you're either stupid or like acting that way.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:44:00 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You couldn't see what I mean..
Message:
...if hit you in the face. And what shit wagon did you fall off of? You don't don't know me enough to have the priveledge to hate me. If you're not wallowing in your hatred I don't know who is. You must have one of the most meaningless lives possible to waste it stuck in 1975 'for no good reason'.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 21:52:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: (yawn)... WhatEVer....
Message:
Nil,

You're right that I don't know you. But what I do know I hate. I hate seeing what would have likely been a fully functioning human being turned into an apologist for a fake god. Sorry man, that's just me.

Anyway, you didn't respond to the main point I was making. I'll take that as a concession because, Nil, ignoring points is the closest premies come to admitting them around here.

So, do we have anything else to talk about?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:17:22 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who do people talk about, Nil?
Message:
Hey Nil,
Who do people talk about?
Ever hear that one? It means that when someone goes on and on accusing other people of something, it's usually because they are guilty of that same thing. Otherwise why would they be so obsessed about something no one else considers important?
Case in point; your contribution to this discussion Nil. You consistently come up with the most abusive, hate filled, and hate inspiring posts I've ever seen. In fact the only times I feel hateful here, is when you, and others like you, attack this place and the people here.
What do you have to say to that?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:42:18 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Who do people talk about, Nil?
Message:
Ever hear that one? It means that when someone goes on and on accusing other people of something, it's usually because they are guilty of that same thing. ...What do you have to say to that?

A canned and simplistic attempt at trying to get back at me with no thought required on your part and no proof of any kind to the validaty of your basic premise. This is the thing x, if I piss off people like you... wonderful. You're getting a taste of the kind of bullshit that comes the premies' way. If you don't believe me take a critical look at the exchanges involving Jim, or Gerry, or Jean-Michel, or Mikey, or Rick, or Brian, etc., etc. And I don't agree that my posts are hate-filled... from time to time anger-filled and don't-give-a-damn-what-you-think-of-me-filled, but not hate.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:47:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil?
Message:
nil: You said, 'And I don't agree that my posts are hate-filled... from time to time anger-filled and don't-give-a-damn-what-you-think-of-me-filled, but not hate.'

Nil, didn't you make the connection, preciously, that people that are filled with anger (the ex's) are hate-mongers? I would like to know what you see as the difference between your anger with us and our anger with M and his supporting cast.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:05:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nil
Subject: Doggone it, I did it again...
Message:
nil: In the previous post (THERE, I got it right), the word 'precious' should be 'previous.' Sorry if that caused any confusion. The 'c' and 'v' keys are a little closer together than I like on this keyboard.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:34:11 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike?
Message:
People who say they hate Maharaji and spend their time fomenting hatred towards him are hate-mongers. I get angry with my wife sometimes but I don't hate her. Hey, Mikey... almost got me there, you big strong astrophysical guy you.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:52:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Well, I tried...
Message:
nil: I've NEVER said that I hate M, NEVER! I got/am pissed at him, but I'm not an M hater. Actually, I don't believe that I hate anyone on planet earth. I would not wish him, or anyone else, physical harm nor psychological harm. I WOULD like him to own up to his responsibilities with regard to his own actions. I guess that's about it. Is that what this is about? You think I hate him? Man, I've seen enough of that thought-process (hate) to last several lifetimes.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:28:53 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well, I tried...
Message:
Nah, I see you don't. I know you guys have your issues that I do wish you the best in getting a resolution to so you can get on with the business of being happy. Maybe it'll come in the form of an explanation from him. Or maybe through a better understanding of you and your universe... maybe in some other way. I do know that if one strives for clarity with a grain of humility it always comes. Sorry if I just sounded new-age... if I did, feel free to disregard.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:05:32 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Well, I tried...
Message:
I do know that if one strives for clarity with a grain of humility it always comes. Sorry if I just sounded new-age..

That didn't sound new age to me, Nil. I kinda like your style. Real spunky and no punches pulled. I disagree with you about Goober, though.. How come you still think he's something special? Is he any better than you or me? This guru gig he inherited, doesn't it smell just a bit fishy to you?

PS I'm a reasonably happy guy (gotta keep that toned down, I'm a bit superstitious about mentioning it) and I don't have any answers to the ''big'' questions. I know one thing for sure--I'm not holding my breath for Guru Maharaji to answer anything for me.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:17:46 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well, I tried...
Message:
How come you still think he's something special? Is he any better than you or me? This guru gig he inherited, doesn't it smell just a bit fishy to you?

I can only go by what I've personally seen of him... you know, it's like this. Have you ever known somebody that people dislike but you see something special in them so you keep them as a friend in spite of what everybody else says? I've had a few, and every one of them have been an enrichment to my life. Maharaji enriches my life in a way that I don't expect everyone to see. It's not that I'm blind to what you guys are talking about... I just don't care, because the benefits of having him as a friend far outweigh not having as a friend. As for how he stepped up his calling, I wasn't there so I don't pretend to know.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:10:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Hate,, anger & full of
Message:
Hi Nil!

Would you please show me one of my 'full of hate' post?

I might get angry at times, even on this forum, since I don't constantly remember holy name and repress my thoughts and feelings all the time. I don't practice k anymore, that's why, and you're not going to convert me.

But, the fact that I do express my feelings at time doesn't mean that I'm all the time like that! far from it!

I'm in fact presently laughing out loud!

Thinking about the BM makes me feel some hate and anger feelings sometime, that's all.

I've even explained why I think the BM is really a whore on the French forum, I imagine of course some premies are angry about me because of this. I'm really sorry about it.

Please don't read my posts.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 17:29:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hate,, anger & full of
Message:
JM,

That remark about you really threw me for a loop, also. You're one of the most civil and gentlemanly guy here, for god's sake! But then, Nil hasn't exactly been a beacon of love and rationality.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:16:08 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You don't mean anything
Message:
Sorry, I had to first point out what an asshole you are, and in all the excitement I forgot about answering your 'point'. If you're comparing Pinochet to Maharaji, I don't agree. And I won't get into an argument with you about whether Maharaji's real or fake, good or bad, because we're obviously not going to agree. I disagree with your point that hate groups have no good reason upon which to base their hate. Every hate group has a good and valid reason for wallowing in their hatred... just ask 'em.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:37:28 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: That's a really bad answer
Message:
I disagree with your point that hate groups have no good reason upon which to base their hate. Every hate group has a good and valid reason for wallowing in their hatred... just ask 'em.

Nil, buddy, of course every group of people that hates someone or group of people THINKS they're justified. But that doesn't mean they are. Some are and some aren't. Who decides? You and me, I guess. It's our judgement call.

Do YOU think the people who hate Pinochet are justified? What's YOUR personal, honest opinion? I think they are, especially the ones who were really hurt by the guy. But again, that's just my opinion. What's yours?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 04, 1999 at 22:55:38 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's a really bad answer
Message:
Do YOU think the people who hate Pinochet are justified? What's YOUR personal, honest opinion? I think they are, especially the ones who were really hurt by the guy. But again, that's just my opinion. What's yours?

Pinochet hated his enemies and saw them everywhere. Pinochet's regime was controlling and his mechanisms for exercising control were based upon degradation and depravity. His systems for control were totally meant to supress the individual and not to elevate. He went to the extreme in carrying out his mandate using toture and murder. But even so, hatred can never be justified because it inevitably ends up hurting the one who hates. Justice on the other hand doesn't require hatred in order to be fair.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:56:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: A little realism, please?
Message:
Pinochet hated his enemies and saw them everywhere. Pinochet's regime was controlling and his mechanisms for exercising control were based upon degradation and depravity. His systems for control were totally meant to supress the individual and not to elevate. He went to the extreme in carrying out his mandate using toture and murder. But even so, hatred can never be justified because it inevitably ends up hurting the one who hates. Justice on the other hand doesn't require hatred in order to be fair.

Nil,

If Pinochet had locked up or killed your friends or family you'd hate him. With all due respect (and, believe it or not, I'm starting to enjoy talking with you -- hence, a little respect), I think it's preposterous to say otherwise. So that leaves the question of whether a natural and unavoidable emotion can ever be considered unjustified. I can't see how, myself.

Thus, a web site established by Pinochet's haters would indeed be full of venom. Is there a risk that someone might get so consumed in that splenetic passion that they think of nothing else? Sure, I guess. but that's just an occupational hazard of carrying passionately about anything. Thnik about it. If you 'really love' the environment, you end up 'really hating' those who destroy it. If you 'really love' socialism, you end up 'really hating' capitalism. If you 'really love' evolution, you end up 'really hating' creationism.

So?

If your concern here is that ex's don't get so caught up in bitterness, thanks. That's something I think we all have to remember. But don't think for a minute that it's not possible to keep this flame going in one room while there are others burning different colours in other rooms. After all, my father's house has many rooms... (BAD joke!)
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:13:00 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A little realism...
Message:
Jim, I applaude the plodding logic used in arriving at your conclusions. My brain felt similar to how it feels when I listen to Chomsky, i.e., nicely exercised. I did however, like I do with Chomsky, arrive at the end-point having had to eat some things that I really couldn't swallow. You assume as truth that a basic (read base) human reaction like hate is justified merely because it exists? 'So that leaves the question of whether a natural and unavoidable emotion can ever be considered unjustified. I can't see how, myself.' Doing so around the Pinochet example plays well to our sentiments for justice and would win votes for Clinton if he needed to sway public attention away from his cigar smoking habit, but its precedent would clearly open the door to chaos. Where do you draw the line... at which natural emotion? Not to mention the uncertain and often brutal consequences that ensue. And where does the striving to rise above the baser attributes of human nature come in?
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:37:34 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: You don't mean anything
Message:
All I get from your 'rhetoric' is self/maharaj ji defence.
M has enough security (some with guns I believe)to keep him
protected, doesn't need you.
Why don't you stop repressing your own hidden anger regarding maharaj ji and own up to the fact that the guy is not all love and bliss.
Just a helpful suggestion.

(very happy)ex-mug
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 21:44:44 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: And you do...???
Message:
Ex-mug, what the fuck do you KNOW, I mean really KNOW about his security? Then why the fuck make an idiot out of yourself pretending you do!!! For God's sake I wish worms like you would stay in your holes until you find brains enough to communicate intellegently. And what 'rhetoric' have I spouted to defend myself or Maharaji? Not a word! He certainly doesn't need my defence, and I certainly don't feel threatened by twits like you.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 04:25:22 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: And you do...???
Message:
such fun winding you up -
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:10:46 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: And you do...???
Message:
another reason I parted company from GM was to get away from
foul mouthed people such as yourself - you are bad company!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 07:04:17 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Worms are great!!!
Message:
Nil

Security was my 'service' for 11 years. Fair enough, I'm not involved anymore but tell me, has the main core of security names basically changed in the last few years? Tell me if you know, I'm interested. If you don't know, then who are you to comment on my knowledge of Big M's security. I'm all ears :)

I was a bigger idiot than I am now for having ever been involved with a guy like BM who I now consider to be a Big Fraud, based upon personal observation and experience.

Worms are wonderful creatures, so thanks for calling me one,
and by the way, before you use the word 'intelligent' try spelling it correctly.

Your whole aggressive attitude says more about your relationship with BM than mere words can ever express (it is possible to read between the lines, you know)

all the best

ex-mug
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:32:18 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Worms are great!!!
Message:
So you admit you were just spouting off about his level of security... there goes your credibility mug... AGAIN!

Your whole aggressive attitude says more about your relationship with BM than mere words can ever express (it is possible to read between the lines, you know)

Stop trying to be big and tough mug. Every time you try you just end up sounding like more of an idiot than before. Limp and impotent... just like a worm.
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Date: Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:14:50 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Worms are great!!!
Message:
What makes you think your credibility has been established, Nil.
If you know about BM's security arrangements, then you are in a
position to challenge my knowledge of the same, if not then shut up and talk about things that you do know.
If you do know current security details then I dare you to spill the beans. Of course, you said that BM didn't need protecting,
so perhaps he no longer has security around him (LOL)

Lay off the bully tactics, I'm not a victim, and I got say that
I deal with much tougher cookies than you think you are every day in my business and negotiate fabulous deals through doing so.

By the way, are you a member of the Nazi party? (you sound like one)
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 02:28:34 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: here we go again
Message:
but for God's sake their life is their responsibility, and NOBODY twisted their arm. And you're not in a position to say where you would have been if... could have been a

hey Nil,

we hear this stuff all the time here. we should just have a standard response. And that response would be that Maharaji exerted and undo amount of influence over our lives due to his perceieved position as Lord of the Universe. We did have our arms twisted. It was a situation of duress where you're gonna goto hell or some other karma darkness if you don't.

take your blinders off and try to understand what we are saying.

sure, we don't ask nor require that you agree, but there can be no dialog without a modicum of honesty on your part. And you know, that there might even be some reciprocity by some people here who consider that meditation has real benefits.
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Date: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 22:07:28 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: here we go again
Message:
We did have our arms twisted. It was a situation of duress where you're gonna goto hell or some other karma darkness if you don't.

Oh stop!!! If I hear this whimpering excuse one more time for why you guys forfeited accountability for your life I'll explode. Did you think by pitching your tent in his camp he'd take care of all the details without you having to sweat or be responsible? And then when you found out that's not the case and your fairy tale burst, you bailed... right? And now you're all a bunch of bleeding victims trying to find someone to blame for your self-inflicted wounds... FUCK!!! He did make ONE big mistake buddy, letting whimps like you receive Knowledge. For Christ sake man, get a grip and be an adult!!
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 01:11:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: but Nil..
Message:
Knowledge ain't nothin'. It's a flim-flam scam, man, and maybe you're too invested in it to admit this. What has it done for you, on practical terms? Hell, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here. Let me in on the secret, would ya?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 05:22:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: HIS one BIG mistake
Message:
He did make ONE big mistake buddy, letting whimps like you receive Knowledge.

I couldn't agree more with you!
First good thing I've ever seen from you here!

He even let us IN His ashram, and become instructors (me anyway),
what a pain in His Holy Ass.

Looks like He did quite LOTS of mistakes .... too bad for the Lord of the Universe.

Is it His Divine Lila or something ?

I've always thought he was really in charge of the whole thing HIMSELF.

Remember his old satsang, where he used to say that 'Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish.' I've attended lots of conferences with him where he looked to be totally in charge of what was going on inside DLM & EV. Was he?

I can't understand where the mistake lies. Do you think m ever made some overstatements?

I did surrender the reins of my life to him, he was supposed to guide me ..... where IS the mistake?
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 17:48:07 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: HIS one BIG mistake
Message:
Two people standing by the road asking the same person for directions. They each proceed on their way separately. One gets lost, the other finds their way. Where IS the mistake?

Well, the biggest mistake would be to deny even the possibility that the other person actually DID find their way. Of course that would be easier to stomach... then you could blame the one giving directions instead of yourself.

I'm here to tell you his directions have worked perfectly for me. If you were to believe me, you'd have to retrace your steps to see where YOU went wrong. If that's too hard for you... you're stuck.
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Date: Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 21:39:16 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: HIS one BIG mistake
Message:
his directions worked perfectly for you.
what is it that you see as your success in life?
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