Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 33

From: Dec 19, 1998

To: Jan 2, 1999

Page: 1 Of: 5


Katie -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:01:25 (EST)
__Saul -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:09:57 (EST)
____Helen -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:15:30 (EST)
______Jim -:- Great idea -- WITH full names -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:30:07 (EST)
________Katie -:- Great idea -- WITH full names -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:36:22 (EST)
________RT -:- full names??-ask the families. -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:15:24 (EST)
__________Katie -:- full names??-ask the families. -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:58:10 (EST)
____________RT -:- names? Towns? Time? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:01:39 (EST)
______________Katie -:- names? Towns? Time? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:52:30 (EST)
________________Katie -:- BTW, RT -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:54:48 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:57:40 (EST)
____Jethro -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:57:42 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:03:57 (EST)
____Passing thru' -:- Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 05:52:50 (EST)
______nigel -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:01:44 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:49:37 (EST)
__________Saul -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:56:42 (EST)
____________b...*>* -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:22:54 (EST)
____________Selene -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 16:38:05 (EST)
______________ham -:- You're all heart, PT... -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:13:51 (EST)
____________Helen -:- I agree, great post (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:56:03 (EST)
__________barney -:- but, do real whackos get K? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:36:01 (EST)
__________Gail -:- JM's post should be framed! -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 18:26:13 (EST)
______bill -:- Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:32:34 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- And the winner is..Bill -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:13:32 (EST)
__________nigel -:- The 'Norman' letter. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:19:22 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- Norman -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:00:34 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Norman -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:21:07 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- you're right Pol Pot -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:32:48 (EST)
__________bill -:- And the winner is..Bill -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:53:35 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- Back to Bill -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:20:01 (EST)
______________bill -:- Back to PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:22:41 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Back to PT/Bill/shp -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:05:03 (EST)
______________Gail -:- MJ changes mind about internet -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:38:35 (EST)
______Mike -:- Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:52:57 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Trivial indeed -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Trivial indeed -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:50:47 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- Trivia -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:38:45 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Not trivial at all, Pt -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:52:22 (EST)
________________ham -:- Not trivial at all, Pt -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:31:12 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Trivial indeed -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 06:15:51 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- And trite J-M -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:44:41 (EST)
______________Jim -:- And wrong, PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:21:26 (EST)
__________nigel -:- Disgraceful indeed! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:01:21 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Slight correction -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:22:07 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Ok, Jim. You do it... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 20:53:15 (EST)
____________Passing Resemblance -:- Graceful Need -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:50:59 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Laugh? I nearly shat... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:49:30 (EST)
________________Jim -:- I just did -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:18:44 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- Easy answer -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:52:31 (EST)
______________Gail -:- How many reminders do you need -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:22:44 (EST)
________________barney -:- Classic victim blaming -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:37:21 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Stupid answer -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:07:19 (EST)
________________nigel -:- PT, are you defaulting? (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:11:23 (EST)
______________VP -:- Easy answer -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:21:57 (EST)
________________VP -:- And another thing, PT -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:46:34 (EST)
__________________peter -:- And another thing, PT -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:07:56 (EST)
____________________VP -:- Damage Control -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:41:45 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- Easy answer -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:08:39 (EST)
______Katie -:- to Passing thru -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:13:16 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Your friend -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:26:49 (EST)
__________Katie -:- You don't understand -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:20:49 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- You don't understand -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:14:20 (EST)
______________Brian -:- No, YOU don't understand -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:35:09 (EST)
______JW -:- Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:54:29 (EST)
________Mike -:- You're really good today, JW -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:15:16 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Talk to Katie -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:30:41 (EST)
__________JW -:- Talk to Katie -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:08:43 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Talk with me, PT -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:48:27 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- Talk with me, PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:32:37 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Excellent question, PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:07:02 (EST)
______Jim -:- Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:37:31 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Once again..Jim -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:42:24 (EST)
__________barney -:- it's not that simple, PT -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:51:01 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- it's not that simple, PT -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:04:30 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- I was there barney.. -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:42:42 (EST)
______________barney -:- In your Mind you were there! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:24:38 (EST)
__________JW -:- Once again..Jim -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:12:11 (EST)
____________barney -:- too busy enjoying life... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:23:50 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Take the PT test, shp -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:03:12 (EST)
__JW -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:15:13 (EST)
____Katie -:- Premie Suicides -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:36:51 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- What about hospitals? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:05:46 (EST)
________Katie -:- Falling through the cracks -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:44:22 (EST)
______VP -:- Premie Suicides -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:15:19 (EST)
____Passing thru -:- Everyone's choice -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:50:39 (EST)
______Saul -:- Everyone's choice -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:19:21 (EST)
______ham -:- All heart pt -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:10:12 (EST)
________Jethro -:- All heart pt -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:13:28 (EST)
______JW -:- Everyone's choice -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:48:58 (EST)
______peter -:- PT the super-hero... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:01:02 (EST)
________peter -:- I've just realized... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:45:45 (EST)
__________nigel -:- well spotted, peter (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:45:42 (EST)
____________VP -:- well spotted, peter -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:55:39 (EST)
__Joy -:- Premie Suicides -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:34:06 (EST)
____Jim -:- How about RECENT suicides? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:14:56 (EST)
______dv -:- How about RECENT suicides? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:50:50 (EST)
________Jim -:- How about RECENT suicides? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:18:33 (EST)
__Safely Away -:- My letter to GMJ for help -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:18:54 (EST)
____Katie -:- My letter to GMJ for help -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:16:21 (EST)
____Helen -:- My letter to GMJ for help -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:44:22 (EST)
____Saul -:- My letter to GMJ for help -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:49:27 (EST)
______Safely Away -:- My letter to GMJ for help -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:05:01 (EST)

syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 04:16:30 (EST)
__bb -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 05:56:39 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 01:45:11 (EST)
__Orlando -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:23:56 (EST)
____bill -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:45:17 (EST)
____Mike -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:14:13 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:16:09 (EST)
__CD -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:54:54 (EST)
____Gail -:- The Long, Strange Trip -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:48:25 (EST)
______syd -:- The Long, Strange Trip -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:30:34 (EST)
________Robyn -:- The Long, Strange Trip -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:30:11 (EST)
__________syd -:- The Long, Strange Trip -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:50:13 (EST)
____Mike -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:20:13 (EST)
______Brian -:- Introducing CD -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 11:05:46 (EST)
____Gail -:- Can I go to Wembley, next time -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:08:17 (EST)
______Saul -:- Can I go to Wembley, next time -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
________Helen -:- Fear -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:29:15 (EST)
__________Saul -:- Fear -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 17:36:41 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Fear -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 18:22:40 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Fear -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 21:06:24 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Fear -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 23:07:02 (EST)
________________Saul -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:08:09 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 11:45:33 (EST)
__________________Christian -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:40:57 (EST)
____________________Saul -:- FEAR -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:45:32 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:37:16 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Insanity -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 11:52:16 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Insanity -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:33:57 (EST)
____________Diz -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:18:48 (EST)
______________Saul -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 01:35:40 (EST)
________________JW -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:33:43 (EST)
__________________Nimrod -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:56:48 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Fear -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:04:00 (EST)
______bill -:- Can I go to Wembley, next time -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:03:21 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:35:49 (EST)
______CD -:- parts that work -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 20:22:24 (EST)
________Saul -:- parts that work -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:07:45 (EST)
__________ham -:- parts that work in dreams -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:26:24 (EST)
________nigel -:- evasive bullshit -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:58:02 (EST)
________syd -:- parts that work -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:54:18 (EST)
____Nimrod -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:52:26 (EST)
____Jim -:- Hey, where's my phone call? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:09:01 (EST)
__Saul -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:55:38 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:39:22 (EST)
__Brian -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:12:30 (EST)
____david m -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 11:00:26 (EST)
______syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:56:25 (EST)
________david m -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:28:15 (EST)
__________syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:59:43 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:48:48 (EST)
______Brian -:- S & M -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:35:24 (EST)
________Gail -:- Milky Cole -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:43:45 (EST)
________bb -:- S & M -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:29:42 (EST)
________Katie -:- S & M -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:43:05 (EST)
________syd -:- S & M -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:37:35 (EST)
__________ham -:- S & M -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:25:27 (EST)
____________syd -:- Glasto '71 -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:50:18 (EST)
______________ham -:- Glasto '71 -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:29:39 (EST)
________________syd -:- Glasto '71 -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:58:25 (EST)
__Katie -:- Welcome, Syd -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 13:08:40 (EST)
____syd -:- Welcome, Syd -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:23:45 (EST)
______Katie -:- Welcome, Syd -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:53:56 (EST)
________syd -:- Welcome, Syd -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:55:56 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Welcome, Syd (more GD) -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:11:58 (EST)
____________syd -:- OK, less GD then :-) -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:08:06 (EST)
______________ham -:- OK, more GD then :-) -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:40:17 (EST)
________________syd -:- OK, more GD then :-) -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:19:28 (EST)
______________Katie -:- GD Quotes are OK :) -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 12:14:19 (EST)
__Bill Cooper -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 14:30:02 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:43:56 (EST)
__Helen -:- Introducing myself -:- Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:35:16 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 05:20:19 (EST)
______Helen -:- The process of discovery -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 08:51:26 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Introducing myself -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:16:35 (EST)
____syd -:- Introducing myself -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:02:54 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Introducing myself -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:50:25 (EST)
__nigel -:- Hi from me, too -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:30:47 (EST)
____syd -:- Hi from me, too -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:06:14 (EST)
__AJW -:- Hey Sid, Remember Dunkirk. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 07:40:13 (EST)
____syd -:- Anth and Syd to meet again! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:35:15 (EST)

Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:01:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
Nigel started a thread below about premie suicides, and, as a result, there has been some discussion about putting a page on the web site regarding this - with perhaps a memorial to each premie any of us knew who committed suicide. I suggested that we do this with first names only to avoid offending or hurting their families further, and was seconded in that by Nigel and dv. I would be willing to take anyone's stories about premie suicides and turn them into a web page (I have not checked with Brian about this, BTW, and obviously I cannot speak for him, but a place WILL be found for this kind of thing if other people want to do it.). I have put my e-mail address above if anyone cares to share their remembrances of these people with me.

I probably wouldn't even be posting here, or working on the web site, if a good premie friend of mine hadn't committed suicide, so I feel strongly about this topic. I have always wanted to write a eulogy for this person - I have put some of this on the forum, but I would like to see it in more permanent form. I'd appreciate some response on this from other exes posting here.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:09:57 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
I think it's a great idea Katie.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:15:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
I agree with Saul. The suicides, although difficult to talk about, are an important part of GM's unaddressed 'legacy' that cannot be allowed to be slipped under the rug
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:30:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great idea -- WITH full names
Message:
Katie,

I'm completely into this and would love to memorialize people like Elaine, Dave, Greg, the other Greg, Nigel and a few others. I don't see how a respectful presentation would offend their families and indeed think these people should be remembered as full human beings. They had nothing to hide, there's no shame in having been a victim of this cult. That's how I see it, anyway.

By the way, I spoke with a 'recent' ex recently who told me that he and his friend new Dave Wiener as a kid growing up in Montreal. His friend, who this ex is trying to track down for me, was a very close friend of Dave's who apprently left the cult upon hearing of Dave's death. The ex told me a couple of pretty touching stories about Dave. All those premies who've suggested that Dave was unstable or somehow mentally unhealthy to begin with can go fuck themselves. Again.

Yeah, I think a page with even a few pictures if we could ever get them would be brilliant. Maharaji ordered us to ignore, deny and suppress our personalities. These suicides obviously never mastered that trick. Yet when they died, as I remember it, we did our utmost even then to minimize their individuality and real 'spirit'. A page that eulogizes them in real life terms might be some small recompense for that tragic evil.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:36:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great idea -- WITH full names
Message:
Hi Jim - I would love to see something that you wrote about the people you knew who killed themselves. Your posts about Dave have been really touching. As for full names, I think it should be left up to the discretion of the eulogizer (and of course, that of the Perfect WebMaster, who I haven't consulted...)
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:15:24 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: Jim and all.
Subject: full names??-ask the families.
Message:
No Admission without Permission. A new slant on an old sign from Prem Nagar.

I agree in concept BUT suggest you compile a list and ask families first...write a letter. Then I will submit the name of someone I knew who ended his life 2 years ofter getting Knowldedge in 1975.

Time heals all wounds. Some may not want them opened (Parents)

Rawat would not want them listed, but too bad.

A sensitive issue. Go slowly.

RT
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:58:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: full names??-ask the families.
Message:
Hi RT - When I write about the person that I knew who killed himself, I probably won't use his full name. He doesn't have any family left that I know of, but he may have some that I don't know of. I think the stories are probably more important than the actual names - using pseudonyms would be fine (just like people do in their Journeys entries, for example. In fact, just like 'RT'...) I agree that some family members might prefer not to have this brought up, and that it is a sensitive issue.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:01:39 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ooom
To: Katie
Subject: names? Towns? Time?
Message:
Families can be protected and accuracy in posting for all time on the Internet would mean that the format of the listing would be: (?)

X.Z.
1953-1976
State, USA.

Received Knowledge Dec 10, 1974.
Death by Suicide, May 10, 1976.
No History of Mental Illness.

Eulogy: My name is K______ and to me, X.Z's death was ....' I knew J.Z. for xx months and ....'X.Z. lived in the ashram of M for xx months..'I spoke to X.Z during the last week he lived.'

Is this what you are trying to do? Thinking this out may be smart.

with warm regards,

RT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:52:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: names? Towns? Time?
Message:
Something like that is what I am thinking of, RT. Basically, just the first name, last initial, where they lived or were from, date (year) of birth (if known), date (year) of death, and a short signed (by name or initials) eulogy if available (comments about mental illness could be put in the eulougy, if appropriate).
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:54:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: BTW, RT
Message:
I have a close friend who lost a family member to suicide. Will run all of it by him to check on appropriateness.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:57:40 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
You may remember that a few months ago I asked people to email me rememberences of premies who had comitted suicide but nothing happened then. Perhaps you'll get a response now since you've been more definite about how you're going to do it. Your web authoring will be better than mine, too.

I for one would be very grateful if you could do this and either link it to this web site or actually put it on the web site. If you need a site to put it on I have a free web site that's hardly being used at the moment.

I have another idea for a web site that's been at the back of my mind for some months now. There's a lot of posts here now and then about the real Maharaji and his real life personality and real life actions which are far from divine. I'd like to gather up all this information and put it on a web site in easy to read, indexed form for people to read and enlighten themself with.

The trouble is, I'm pushed for time and cannot spend hours browsing the archives looking for the relevant posts amidst the haystack of other stuff. So if any bright spark feels like gathering some of these scandal or real life posts about Maharaji, then please send them to me by email and I'll get them on the web page.

What me worry. Premies have sent me to Coventry and now at 6 am I'm just about to drive there.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:57:42 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
'What me worry. Premies have sent me to Coventry ...'

How fortunate that you don't have to listen to the limited premie vocabulary....you certainly deserve your knighthood.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:03:57 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
Hi Katie,
I think it's a great idea although I can see no reason for not publishing their full names. These people were full, living sentient human beings in their own right who deserve full recognition.

Regards jethro

PS Maybe Milky Cole would submit something on the death of his second wife Penny. You know the one who came to him for some support after she was raped and he told he it was her karma.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 05:52:50 (EST)
From: Passing thru'
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Suicides
Message:
Dear Forum,
Could you also open a list of people who I think were saved from suicide by Knowledge?
Without trying, I reckon I could name twenty and could probably come up with more.
PT
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:01:44 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passing thru'
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
Could you also open a list of people who I think were saved from suicide by Knowledge?

Good idea, Passin' the Buck, since these are exactly the sort of people likely to be most at risk when they discover the scale of the hoax Mr Rawat has pulled on them.

Go swivel.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:49:37 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
>Could you also open a list of people who I think were saved >from suicide by Knowledge?

Good idea, Passin' the Buck, since these are exactly the sort of people likely to be most at risk when they discover the scale of the hoax Mr Rawat has pulled on them.

I definitely have at least one ex-premie-friend who's been *saved* by 'm'.

The problem is that she is still at the same place, and she's still struggling with her problems that took her to k at the first place.

M and the instructors have been saying that k is not supposed to heal any problem, and the aspirants are carefully instructed in this way. Of course the fact that somebody tells you this is NOT going to change anything to your 'problem' - everyone has some of them, even the BM as far as I can see (and k never did anything good for him - beside bringing him millions of $, as it looks like!) - doesn't change anything!

BUT:

The instructors in charge of selection for the k sessions have no way to check, and send back home the people that expect anything from k (I guess that if they would do so, nobody would attend the k sessions)! I've been a part of countless k selections and k sessions to witness this.

Now that I'm out of it, I realize how much most of the people 'ready' for k are in a bad shape.
Maybe they were not that well before hearing about m&k, but most of them are really bad after 6 monts of videos: they are DESPERATE! And desperately hoping that m will 'accept' them as his 'student', and that everything will be fine after the k session.

What the whole video-preparation process takes you to is to that point of uncertainty (please re-read the instructors' manual) where you DOUBT everything you know, where your only reality is going to be the more or less 'blissful' experience you're going to supposedly have with k. You doubt every feeling you ever had - they were 'not true'.

What's then left: I call this a brainwashed person, dismissing everything she used to love, totally focused on the greasy face of the Lard.

One can of course say that person is 'saved' from the world and from anything that was supposed to bother her. She is saved from herself, in a way.

WHAT KIND OF SAVING IS THIS?

If this is what you intend to do with your life, then focus on the Lard, you'll soon be able to do it on the net, no need to go watch videos anymore! (Hey Rawat, it won't work, you idiot, your 'experience' is nothing but a group phenomenon - doesn't work in the real world, only in your carefully monitored environment, remember?)

You can be so involved in so many things to the point you 'forget' about yourself and your problems, nothing new!

I don't call this being saved. You're now in a very dangerous place. And whatever is going to shake your faith (and a lot of things will do that as soon as you'll get involved in 'm's world') is going to put you in a terrible place. You won't know what's real anymore.
I've been in that place when I decided I had enough with k, about 2 years ago.
Even m warns the premies and the instructors: the rotting vegetable satsang, the shattered image, etc.

How come you could have such a terrible experience if k was true?

The only answer is that there is nothing true in k, except that it's a belief system and the experience of some various phenomenon having nothing to do with spirituality.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:56:42 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
Great post Jean-Michel!

I think you are making a very important point that hadn't occurred to me. The selection process for k, choosing only those sufficiently 'thirsty' and 'committed' is exactly choosing those people who will be easiest to manipulate with the threat of k withdrawl.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:22:54 (EST)
From: b...*>*
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
Yes indeed Saul.
that JM post was a good one for the printer and i has a future.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 16:38:05 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
Yes, you address something else here. There are many forms of
'suicide'. I don't deny the pain of losing a loved one who did it the quick exit way. In fact I don't know if I could handle that.
But, there is another indideous way to die a slow death. I was on a threshold when I met the divine bigM. I could have killed myself, or I could have hung on, Who knows? What I do know is the 20 or so years that followed, I had a torn schizo personality, arrested development, and a superior hostile attitude toward the non premie unenlightened masses. I didn't knwo I did until just a littlw whole ago. I guess my point is, this too can be a slow slow slow form of suicide. I have seen it in other prmeies as well.
Katie, for some reason I am uncomfortable about posting these stories, but I would.
I agree with the first names only idea. This is a very heavy issue.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:13:51 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You're all heart, PT...
Message:
Spot on Selene, re 'this is a very heavy issue', think it will be a heavier issue than we think, not just because of the issues around but the sheer numbers of people that committed suicide. Almost everyone here knows someone who made this decision, and there has been little overlap in the names mentioned. We're hardly a large community.....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:56:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: I agree, great post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:36:01 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: but, do real whackos get K?
Message:
Great post JM!

Regarding suicide and premies and the proposition that Knowledge has saved people from suicide it would be very, very difficult to statistically prove that Knowledge has saved people from suicide. Sure, there would be antecdotal evidence, but you could also have such evidence from suicidal people who went and saw an inspiring movie.

However, it would be technically possible to validate a disproportionate number of premies suicides based on suicide rates per country. However, gathering the numbers for statistical analysis would nearly impossible.

But, my real question here is regarding the Aspirant process. I agree that some troubled people (and I know a few who recently rec'd K) can endure the long process and then bet it all on K and BM.

But, what about the real whackos that used to easily survive the 30 day test or even less? I'm sure we all remember the whacko contingent. Today, the aspirants are carefully observed and monitored by head honchos in each community. Isn't there a whole questionaire asking a lot of personal questions (does your significant other have K?) that will keep you out.

Lastly though, I suspect that the whackos might not be suicide prone.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 18:26:13 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM's post should be framed!
Message:
I laughed so hard. This part was my favourite:

'What's then left: I call this a brainwashed person, dismissing everything she used to love, totally focused on the greasy face of the Lard.

MJ had better be scared of you, JM. If this is what you come up with in English, I'd hate to see the French version!
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:32:34 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru'
Subject: Suicides
Message:
saved to do what?
spend the seventies eighties and nineties being lied to by
rawat that he is the lord?
The ultimate ruler?
Why assume that those people were headed to suicide?
Being confused about yourself for a while is part of a humans
innocence. It does not lead to suicide.

Being put into a vise by the lord of the universe was
restrictive of all your humanity and your own desires.
Who are these 20?
Lets ask THEM.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:13:32 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: And the winner is..Bill
Message:
Dear Bill,
You are absolutely correct when you say 'lets ask THEM'.
And that was the point of my posting.
If there one thing worse that making unprovable claims for the living,its making claims on behalf of the dead.
The suggestion of using your dead 'friends' without their permission to try to add weight to a absurd argument is really the lowest.
But isn't that what this site is all about.
It doesn't matter whether its true, provable, absurd or nasty, as long as its anti Maharaji and Knowledge.
I have more respect for your dead friends that you do.
Do your own arguing.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:19:22 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passing thru
Subject: The 'Norman' letter.
Message:
It doesn't matter whether its true, provable, absurd or nasty, as long as its anti Maharaji and Knowledge.
I have more respect for your dead friends that you do

You have no respect whatsoever.

I don't know whether you read the 'Rawat's Resolutions' thread below, but this whole question of premie suicides was reawakened by an email I received from a family member of a premie who killed themselves. There are further details regarding Norman's suicide which I could not include (for reasons of anonymity) which, to say the least, do not cast Mr Rawat personally in a very good light at all. (Indeed, the word 'callous' comes to mind.)

The family member who contacted me was never a premie yet a close enough view of things for many years to see exactly what Mr Rawat's warped teachings had done to Norman, as did other family members, since, yes - this was somebody whose problems didn't start until they had been involved - and heavily committed - for many years.

My correspondent has been in contact since to say thanks. I wonder how you would have 'respectfully' handled their email PT. I assume you would have told them that theirs was an 'absurd argument', since Norman was dead, and nobody but Norman should speak on his behalf.

Premies don't spring fully formed from some primordial vibration, PT. They come from families. Families who, unfortunately, had to watch the whole sick indoctrination process unfold; who had to witness their loved ones forfeiting all individuality in blind 'surrender' (yes, remember that word, PT?) to the self-styled 'Guru Maharaj ji'.

Yes, in this case, I think the family had a pretty accurate take on things, and I'm sure there are many other families with a similar privileged perspective. I wonder how many of these would be as anxious as you are not to implicate Mr Rawat or his message in any direct or indirect causal chain of events?

I wonder what words of condolence you would come up with that might convince them you are not just some cult apologist, or indeed, not just as brainwashed as their loved one was.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:00:34 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Norman
Message:
Dear Nigel,
I knew five people who have commited suicide.
One had Knowledge, the others didn't.
The one with Knowledge commited suicide after a relationship break up.
Knowledge had nothing to do with it.
I don't care what Norman's family say, just as you don't care that over 70,000 people tuned in to M's recent satellite event because they love to hear him praise life and our potential to enjoy it.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:21:07 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.dmeon.co.uk
To: Passing thru
Subject: Norman
Message:
I knew five people who have commited suicide. One had Knowledge, the others didn't

Well unless one in five people that you know - and I mean all the people you know, alive or dead - are/were premies, that sounds seriously disproportionate to me, and only confirms the original point I was making.

I don't care what Norman's family say, just as you don't care that over 70,000 people tuned in to M's recent satellite event because they love to hear him praise life and our potential to enjoy it

Of course you don't care what Norman's family say. You've made that abundantly clear, already. And actually, PT, I care very much that so many people will unthinkingly swallow so much of the same cult bullshit that caused me to trash my formative years.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:32:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: you're right Pol Pot
Message:
If there one thing worse that making unprovable claims for the living, its making claims on behalf of the dead.

After all, those millions of people massacred by Pol Pot's disciples very likely wanted to die, like those jews and Gypsies in the concentrayion camps, after all who really knows what their feeling was towards the nazis?

Do you realize what you're saying? Do you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:53:35 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: And the winner is..Bill
Message:
My continued concern is that it does matter when someone sets
themselves up as god/master of life.
why?
Look at the effect it has on present and future people when the
words and deeds of someone who wants to play a big role in the
spiritual/religious business doesn't have the clarity of mind
to do a good job.

Look at the indian society.
That area is permeated with a few really poor notions of
life/god/reality and it has affected millions of lives in ways
that are bad and without any corresponding merit.

What do you think prem rawat's plus is in India when he
holds fast to one of the core problem misperceptions of that
area?
More than one, but the first one I refer to is the view that
life is set up (like the confused buddha thought incorrectly)
where there is Hmmmm, I am not sure I want to educate you on this.

Do YOU see any areas of indian and buddhist thinking that prem rawat embraces perhaps without realizing?

Is everything just clear and all thought out perfectly by him
at this point?
Does he have life figured out at this point?
Do you see him evolving?

Any chance of that in your view?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:20:01 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Back to Bill
Message:
Dear Bill,
Yes Maharaji is changing and evolving like the rest of us.
He talks about it often.
A classic instance is his turn around about the internet.
He is entitled to change his mind but the one thing about which he has never varied is the preciousness of life and our need to appreciate it.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:22:41 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Back to PT
Message:
Dear PT

I wish the evidence supported your idea that he has had a
long term consistent core operating thrust that was based
on the principle of precious appreciation of life.

He has actually admitted to being plagued by the demons
of anger, fear, greed, darkness, I think I need to check the tape
but lust made the list I think.

Well, it should make the list because it is a standard human
nature issue.

I was talking to two cops last night and they said that all police
have the same stories. People are the affected by human nature
the same way everywhere.

To ignore the reality that Prem Rawat walked blind in this life
and was affected/is affected by human nature that he had
little understanding of, is to just pretend.

To continue to pretend. Saying at some point in your life that
life is precious and to be appreciated does not mean you are
actually living that way yourself.

If you think he is doing that now, well it is another new effort of his to make it real in his life now.

I have heard him make these starts before, the song _I need to feel it-- is just one example.
The marketing of him as master of life/still the lord/ect
is the part that is dishonest, unneccesary, and has the
most destructive results.

You haven't really helped me out of my concern.
I thought you were going to address that more in your post.
Not everyone shares my concern about this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:05:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill/PT/shp
Subject: Back to PT/Bill/shp
Message:
That's so right on, Bill. Appreciation for the preciousness of life is not just a platitude that one spouts on and on. It is something one shows by one's behavior. Love is such an easy word to say but Maharaji has not behaved in a way that is loving. Shp is so conflicted that Maharaji might really be the Lord. If Maharaji is the Lord what kind of Lord is he ? The Lord of what-?-what do his behaviors and values tell us he is the Lord of?

1. The Lord of money & stuff at the expense of premie's health and well-being

2.. The Lord of turning away from his responsibilities to those that he claims he loves

I'm really concerned when people sacrifice their values and good sense for an experience.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:38:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: MJ changes mind about internet
Message:
Thanks for admitting that MJ changed his mind about premies on the net, PT. I have been called a liar about this by Orlando. MJ told premies to stay off the net at the Miami program, but it was edited out of the video.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:52:57 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru'
Subject: Suicides
Message:
PT: Even NOW, you try to trivialize the deaths of these individuals. You are attempting to divert attention away from these people by trying to point to M's supposed 'successes.' What unmitigated gaul you possess. Think about this first, then read the next line and take it's full impact into your unfeeling and ignorant 'soul.'

YOU and EVERY PREMIE that thinks this way are ASSHOLES! FUCK OFF, you slimeball!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Trivial indeed
Message:
Dear Mike,
It was Katie that suggested that these people should be used, not me.
I think its a disgrace that the dead should be used without their knowledge or permission.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:50:47 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Trivial indeed
Message:
Wake up, asshole. The memorial would be a tribute to their humanity as well as an expose of M's failure. Tell me, PT, why couldn't the Lord Of The Universe save these poor souls? Why did he tell them he could if he couldn't? Maybe they were unstable to begin with, like premies love to point out, but didn't M beckon the unstable to come to him? Didn't he make it seem like Knowledge was a cure for whatever ails you? I remember him once saying that whatever problems a devotee has, he puts in a box and burns them. He said that people who were completely crazy, gave their craziness to him and he put it in a box and burned it.

Maharaji set himself up as the savior of mankind. Obviously, not all were saved by him. The premies who committed suicide needed genuine help, help which, obviously, Maharaji could not give them. They'd still be alive if he could.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:38:45 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Trivia
Message:
Dear Jerry,
No wonder you're pissed off.
I would be too, if I was so stupid as to believe the Maharaji can stop people from dying.
Fortunately I never heard anything like it.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:52:22 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Not trivial at all, Pt
Message:
Pt,

Let's say someone's real miserable. Life's a misery and the thought of suicide is crossing this person's mind daily. Then he hears of this boy guru and new hope awakens in him. He feels that, maybe, this is going to turn him around. His misery is going to turn into joy, maybe. He decides to check it out. He receives Knowledge, gives it his best shot, but nothing changes. Now, instead of thinking that Knowledge just doesn't work for him; because of what Maharaji and all the people he trusts say, that Knowledge is perfect and will work for anybody who really gives an effort, who really surrenders, who really accepts that joy in their lives, he thinks that HE doesn't work for Knowledge. He thinks there's something wrong with HIM, not Knowledge. Knowledge is perfect. If he can't see that, he figures, there must be something wrong with him, not Knowledge, and certainly not the Perfect Master Of The Age. Now, this person is in worse shape than he's ever been. He feels he is a complete failure. All hope is gone. His misery is worse than ever. He decides that suicide is the only way out and takes his life.

Now Pt, I realize that this is a hypothetical story. I don't know anybody like this so I guess you could just chalk it up as my wild imaginings. I'm sure you will. But THINK first. Isn't this a likely scenario? Wouldn't a person who was 'unstable' to begin with be MORE prone to commit suicide AFTER receiving Knowledge if it didn't work for him? Who's going to tell this person to move on, to seek his peace, elsewhere? There was no such advice back then. Maharaji wasn't telling anybody to 'walk' back then. It was 'surrender', 'surrender', 'surrender'... this was the only advice given back then. Isn't it possible, under this kind of pressure, for a person, an 'unstable' one to begin with, to snap and take the plunge he was thinking about before receiving Knowledge? I think so.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:31:12 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not trivial at all, Pt
Message:
Brilliant post Jerry, and judging from the background material that's been posted here, VERY pertinent.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 06:15:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Trivial indeed
Message:
I think its a disgrace that the dead should be used without their knowledge or permission.

Really?

I guess that all the trials against those war criminals, and ANY criminal as a matter of fact should not be happening because the victims can't attend it! Until we finally discover a way to have the corpses speaking! Maybe we'll work it out one day with the DNA. Nobody as ever been guilty for killing or harming anybody if the victim is dead! That would really make the world much more simple, and leave lots of lawyers unemployed.

Is this what's going to happen in 'maharaji's world'? I think I'm beginning to share m's vision now: nobody will ever complain of anything, of course, like in the old days' ashram! Remember? Complaining about anything would mean: you leave the ashram, or you shut up and stay! What a wonderful world indeed!

Or is it ONLY in the cases where Mr Rawat would be involved ?

Do you realize how distorted your reasonings and brains are?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:44:41 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And trite J-M
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
Never be tempted to defend yourself in court.
You will find that you are not allowed to claim a dead person told you anything after they died.
Hey, but this is the Ex-premie.org site, anything is allowed as long as it shifts the blame.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:21:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: And wrong, PT
Message:
Never be tempted to defend yourself in court.
You will find that you are not allowed to claim a dead person told you anything after they died.

Absolutely untrue. Most jurisdictions allow this kind of evidence on a much more flexible application of the general prohibition against hearsay. In Canada, for example, the test is to balance the reliability, relevance and necessity of the hearsay of the dead. If there's reason for the court to accpet that the deceased really said it (it doesn't have to be corroboration either. Sometimes, just the nature of the evidence itself carries this point.), and if the point the deceased's statement addresses is pivotal for resolving the case, the court will often admit such utterances.You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:01:21 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Throwin' Up
Subject: Disgraceful indeed!
Message:
..that GMJ ahould use these people without their informed consent to the fact that he was fleecing them for every last ounce of of devotion, cash and commitment, whilst not delivering the promised ration of 'such peace as can never die' (unlike the premies themselves, who we now know, were free to die whenever they felt like it).

Since you decline to comment on my post to you above (the 'Norman' letter), maybe you could answer this one, PT.

Remember Heaven's Gate? You know - one of the many instances where the time-honoured guru/cult/suicide thing hit the news worldwide. Now suppose Marshall Applewhite Ji had survived after his followers moved on to life eternal on Hale Bopp. Would you then hold the Master accountable for anything, or would you still fall back on the 'consenting adults' defence? - or maybe the 'they're not here to speak for themselves' defence?

I suspect, in the eye of the law, Applewhite could not be found guilty of any indictable crime, but morally, surely... What do you think, PT?

Applewhite is different from Maharaj ji in many ways, and similar in many others. Both require(d) their devotees to forego their individuality, to trust their Master implicitly, to accept instructions unquestioningly and generally lose themselves in the greater good and oneness of the spiritual cause. Rawat never explicitly required his followers to kill themselves (it would harm the donations for one thing), but he did teach them that their minds were crazy, were the enemy, would destroy them etc., and to escape what their minds might do they should focus one hundred percent on him, and forget the world of Maya/illusion, which is where, unfortunately, the best psychiatrists tend to live nowadays.

How about putting your brain into gear for five minutes and trying to work out just how far around the continuum from GMJ to MA you would have to go before deciding that, yes, the guru has some reponsibility for what becomes of his followers.

Answer me, please.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:22:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Slight correction
Message:
I suspect, in the eye of the law, Applewhite could not be found guilty of any indictable crime

except murder. He could and would be undoubtedly charged. Most jurisdictions I'm aware of (England, Canada and the states) have expanded their theories of criminal causation broadly enough to capture MA's acts quite nicely. Yeah, they'd get him for sure.

Nigel, do you really expect PT to reply? Your point's so strong and well-stated, I think PT'll just keep P'ing T. So want me to answer for him? I mean you went to all that trouble and everything. Nice long post. No typos. A little HTML.

Anyway, if he doesn't get back to you, let me know and I'll get someone around here to reply.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 20:53:15 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Ok, Jim. You do it...
Message:
Here are the rules:

(1) Keep a straight face

(2) Suspend my disbelief. Be PT, right down to the last repitlian slither.

Your instruction: 'Answer me'.

Ready... 1, 2, 3... Go for it, Jimbo... Feel the part. You've been there, remember. Try to capture a bit of that old familiar je ne sais quoi what the fuck are we doing here help me maharaji please life is so unthinkable without you stuff and it should be easy...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:50:59 (EST)
From: Passing Resemblance
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Graceful Need
Message:
Remember Heaven's Gate? You know - one of the many instances where the time-honoured guru/cult/suicide thing hit the news worldwide. Now suppose Marshall Applewhite Ji had survived after his followers moved on to life eternal on Hale Bopp. Would you then hold the Master accountable for anything, or would you still fall back on the 'consenting adults' defence? - or maybe the 'they're not here to speak for themselves' defence?

Nigel,

I think it's pretty sad that you're so wrapped up in this venomous entanglement of confusion you people call a website that you're coming here at all on such a festive holiday. Worse, you want to talk about suicide of all things. Maharaji's always made it abundantly clear that it's life that matters. Looks like yet another token of your chronic inability to understand.

So you want to talk about that entertaining bunch at Heaven's Gate, do you? As if I could even comment! I wasn't there, I don't know them -- sorry, DIDN'T know them and only know what the press reported. And you want me to speculate on that scanty basis? This, Nigel, is why the mind is so futile. Comparisons are tricky at the best of times but my opining anything here would be senseless. We know how untrustworthy the press always was about Maharaji. He gave them every opportunity to listen but they wasted them all and only scandalized him mercilessly. I can't say they didn't do the same thing to Mr. Applewhite.

If they didn't, and the coverage of Heavan's Gate was, for some reason, accurate far and beyond any given Maharaji, I still couldn't compare what Maharaji stands for with that group. Those kinds of mental gymnastics are fine for crossword puzzles but this is matter of the heart. Maharaji has shown me an experience that defies description AND comparison. Again, you clearly never had it or you wouldn't be even trying to discuss it here. It is, after all, a matter of gratitude, not discussion.

But I know what you'll say to all this. And even if I don't I'm not going to speculate on something I'm uncertain of. That's the kind of stuff you ex's revel in, hearsay heresy and critical accusatory allegations of concerns. Your minds are made up before you say anything and even if they weren't you're obviously thinking too hard. You're an intelligent guy, Nigel, but do you really think you can encompass such a subtle and infinite subject in these squiggly little symbols here? What if we only had cuneiform? Would you actually try to discuss these matters in that limited pallette? Of course not! You probably don't even know cuneiform and who's going to teach you if you're not willing to humble yourself before the master? You can't push the river, Nigel. Remember that.

But, because this IS New Year's, and because you obviously don't have anything better to do, I'll overlook all those natural imediments to you ever coming to a true understanding of the love of the Master this way. I'll try to answer your question the way YOU'D like.

If Applewhite was sincere and did not come within twelve inches of his followers when he gave them their last allowances and final snacks, that is if he didn't invade their personal space, well then, I think it's true, they are -- sorry, WERE -- all consenting adults. Besides, if they weren't they didn't have to stay (or go?) did they? See?

I certainly wouldn't spend the rest of my life villifying him. Have you seen the way eveyone made fun of those bozos? It's as if the media have nothing better to do than sensationalize this mysterious situation. Look at the facts: all the HGers died peacefully, cleanly, and nicely dressed. It was a private house in a nice neighbourhood (Do you think they would have even bothered to report this (the media, I mean) if it'd happened in an underclass minority part of town, a black or jewish ghetto, say, or a mexican bordello?). None of them had meaningful relationships with their families so it's not like there was any loss in that respect. And, most importantly, it was their EXPERIENCE. I predict that the media will NEVER understand that but you, with all your years of truth behind you (and maybe more to come?) should know better.

Plus, look at the HGers that didn't make the first passing who ran to catch up a week or few months later. Obviously these people were acting under their own free will. See, Nigel, Applewhite himself was already long gone. So how can you say he influenced the others who joined in later? You can't and that's why you avoided talking about them. You feign an appetite for an honest discussion, Nigel, but you conveniently leave out any points I might make. And you expect me to trust you?

Marshall Applewhite was without a doubt confused. There can be no question about that. As Maharaji says, the truth is simple and he alone is selling it. But can we blame people for searching wherever they might? No! Democracy is based on the freedom to keep Maharaji in one's back pocket and search the world for him. Applewhite was just leading a bit of an expedition. That's how I see it anyway.

I suspect, in the eye of the law, Applewhite could not be found guilty of any indictable crime, but morally, surely... What do you think, PT?

Like I've already said, let he who casts the first stone look inside. That's where you're going to find the answer to this and any other question you have, Nigel. I'm not afraid to discuss anything with you but I'll remind you every time that we are bound to just go in circles. That's my committment.

Applewhite is different from Maharaj ji in many ways, and similar in many others. Both require(d) their devotees to forego their individuality, to trust their Master implicitly, to accept instructions unquestioningly and generally lose themselves in the greater good and oneness of the spiritual cause. Rawat never explicitly required his followers to kill themselves (it would harm the donations for one thing), but he did teach them that their minds were crazy, were the enemy, would destroy them etc., and to escape what their minds might do they should focus one hundred percent on him, and forget the world of Maya/illusion, which is where, unfortunately, the best psychiatrists tend to live nowadays.

Maharaji said it best when he spoke of the 'little drops of mercy.' I can't quote directly but the satsang went something like this: You want pretty pictures of flowers? I've got them. You want peace in your heart within inside? I've got that too. But you're the one who has to decide, pretty pictures or peace in your heart within inside? I can only point the way but I can't show you where to go.'

You can't say Maharaji said the mind was evil without including that part of his message but that's what all you ex's do. I wonder sometimes if any of you ever experienced anything. Maharaji said the mind was evil as a way of saying 'pictures or flowers?' He wasn't saying it was 'evil' evil. Of course not. If that's what he meant he would have come right out and said so. You know as well as I that one thing Maharaji is is oblique. But perhaps you forget a bit sometimes. Huh?

How about putting your brain into gear for five minutes and trying to work out just how far around the continuum from GMJ to MA you would have to go before deciding that, yes, the guru has some reponsibility for what becomes of his followers.

Well thta's just another way of asking the same question, isn't it?

Answer me, please.

I think I've gone out of my way to answer your question quite fully here, Nigel. I suggest that you search your heart and ask yourself if now isn't as good a time as ever to fold your hand and give your cards back to the dealer. (No I don't mean 'kill yourself' although you have to admit it'd be pretty funny if you thought that's what I meant and acted accordingly in light of our discussion here!). I mean, find the truth in all this, Nigel. Good luck!

PR
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:49:30 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passing Resemblance
Subject: Laugh? I nearly shat...
Message:
(copyright Derek & Clive 1973)

Jim,

Your sentences are too long. Too many sub-clauses and too coherent. PT doen't use parentheses or logic, remember. Otherwise hysterical (and you can quote me).
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:18:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: I just did
Message:
Otherwise hysterical (and you can quote me).

Thanks

Happy New Year
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:52:31 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Easy answer
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Maharaji has always said that life is the greatest gift.
That your breath is more important than any possession or position in this world.
And Maharaji has tens of thousands of people who agree with that sentiment and appreciate being reminded of it.
What you do with that life is up to you.
If you want to paint or swim or kill yourself, it is your decision and your decision only.
No one , not even Maharaji, can stop a determined person from exercising their free will.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:22:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: How many reminders do you need
Message:
in a lifetime, PT? Life is the quintessential ingredient for being here; you don't need 24 years of brainwashing to know that. However, focusing on the breath and obsessing about MJ blocks out much of what life has to offer.

It flattens your thoughts and dulls your wits and makes you wish you were dead because there is no end to the committment until you croak. You can always chuck a bad marriage, but how do you overthrow the Lord whose been given a throne in the seat of your soul. You can't; you must

'Focus on the Form of Guru Maharaj Ji.
Always remember his every word is holy.'

Of course, once you realize MJ's a shiester, it's SO EASY TO DENOUNCE HIM. You told me I was weak-minded for thinking he was the Lord--you NEVER thought that. Why do you care what we say here about MJ then? Would you put forth the same energy if we trashed your grade 9 math teacher, or did you make it that far?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:37:21 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Classic victim blaming
Message:
PT just loves to avoid the possibility of a causal relationship regarding the thoughts and actions of the Devotee and what the Master has hammered into the Devotee. Essentially, the blame for misunderstanding and everything else is laid upon the victim.

Come on PT, you cannot go to those videos night after night and not be affected by the philosophy. Sure, you might get a nice little buzz from it as you surrender yourself to let the message sink in, but by then it's too late. You've internalized that Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe (ok, the Master) and your shortcomings and your problems and your confusion are soley your own and need to be eradicated.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:07:19 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passing thru
Subject: Stupid answer
Message:
One the whole, I was more impressed by Passing Resemblance's criticism.

'Life is the greatest gift.'

PT, if your argument was any weaker you could sell it as a homoepathic remedy. Was there ever a guru - Applewhite included - who recruited followers with the slogan 'death is the greatest gift?'

And yes, only someone as vacuous as GMJ could repeat his banal truism at every available opportunity - almost as if life were his own gift (come to think of it, didn't that use to be the official line..?)

But it's hardly Bertrand Russell, is it? 'Life is the greatest gift', indeed.

What about the other teachings? Through the seventies and beyond, Mr Rawat required of his followers total devotion and focus on 'Knowledge' to the exclusion of all other worldly concerns, including one's own family. Failure to devote 100% resulted in dire consequences. (I could dig out the quotes if you insist. But surely I shouldn't need to. I was there; you were there. You know the score.)

Tell me that what I'm saying isn't true, PT, and I'll call you a liar.

Now try some simple equations and see whether you can finally catch my drift on the suicides issue:

Requirement of total devotion = big pressure; big pressure = cause of stress; stress sustained over many years = psychological damage; psychological damage = possibility of suicidal tendencies.

Your evasiveness is beginning to piss me off, PT. I don't think I'll bother talking to you any more unless you will answer me two questions, simply and without ambiguity: (1) Is a guru ever reponsible, even slightly reponsible, for what becomes of the people who follow his teachings? - if so when? (2) Does GMJ, in your opinion, ever make mistakes? - if so, which ones? If you default on either question, people will draw their own conclusions.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:11:23 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: PT, are you defaulting? (nt)
Message:
Tricky questions, I know. But I'm sure you'll think of something.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:21:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Easy answer
Message:
No one , not even Maharaji, can stop a determined person from exercising their free will.

Are you saying that a command from Maharaji would not make a true devotee jump? Are you saying that his orders aren't carried out to the tee by those who think he is their master? Doesn't an obedient dog obey his master? Doesn't an obedient slave?

PT, I know someone who wrote letters to Maharaji and called Maharaji asking for one word of encouragement from him and he didn't even respond. ONE WORD from him would have saved this person's life. And you sit here and write that not even a master can save the life of a slave? You are either dishonest or ignorant and I am sorry for you either way.

If Maharaji had said, 'LIVE' this person would be alive today. If Maharaji had suggested a doctor, this person would have gone. But Maharaji chose to do nothing. He could not be bothered. I know this for a fact. You do not know anything about this situation or what happened to my friend, so do me a favor and don't try to tell me anything about it.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:46:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: PT
Subject: And another thing, PT
Message:
While I'm on this subject, I think it's disgusting that you said you didn't care about Norman's family. It says a lot about you. You said you have respect for the dead, yet you have none for the living. What compassion. What depth of character.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:07:56 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: And another thing, PT
Message:
PT has respect for the dead when he finds it convenient.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:41:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: Damage Control
Message:
Jerry says PT's playing goalie for Maharaji and it's true. Whatever has to be said to defend him will be said. Whatever PT thinks will work--like the respect for the dead comment.

Many of PT's statements here are making him/her seem like a cold hearted person. Some people say following Maharaji impairs one's ability to reason logically. We have seen evidence of this here. What I am seeing in this thread is that it can impair one's ability to be kind or compassionate (moral?)

It's okay to lie, mislead, or hurt others intentionally as long as a PAGE ABOUT PREMIE SUICIDES DOESN'T GET ON-LINE. It seems that is PT's goal in this thread. Damage control at whatever the cost.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:08:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Easy answer
Message:
Good post, VP. Unfortunately, Pt is on automatic pilot in defense of Maharaji, so I doubt any of it registered. Like Jim said about Shp, Pt's playing goalie for his master. Anytime it looks like a puck is headed for the net, Pt can't think of anything but blocking the shot. Your post was definitely a shot on goal.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:13:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Passing thru'
Subject: to Passing thru
Message:
Dear PT -
You are certainly welcome to compile such a list and post it on the forum, or wherever. I would submit, however, that 'saved from suicide' is a relative term - how would you know? One of my family members took an overdose of sleeping pills and would have died except that her young son got into bed beside her and she realized that she didn't want him to wake up next to a dead mother. This is a pretty concrete example of someone being 'saved from suicide' (it also took physical intervention on the part of her husband, her daughter, the paramedics, and the hospital.) However, suicide itself is concrete and final - we know that these people were premies, and that they killed themselves.

My primary reason for wanting to write about the premie I know who killed himself is because I mourn him and don't want him to be forgotten. I don't see it as an opportunity to take shots at Maharaji. I would guess that that is why many of the other people here would want to write remembrances.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:26:49 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Your friend
Message:
Dear Katie,
Write about your friend by all means but to use their death as a vehicle to legitimise your negative view of Maharaji or Knowledge is not just absurd, it is an insult to your friend.
Suicide is the culmination of someone life, not just the result of their last few months or years.
Every experience and feeling, every gene and cell and every day of their life is involved.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:20:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You don't understand
Message:
Dear Passing Thru -
You wrote:
Write about your friend by all means but to use their death as a vehicle to legitimise your negative view of Maharaji or Knowledge is not just absurd, it is an insult to your friend. Suicide is the culmination of someone life, not just the result of their last few months or years.

You appear to be really upset about this topic, and you seem to be very angry at me for proposing it. Let me try and explain a few things. First, I don't intend to write about my friend in order to 'legitimise my negative view of Maharaji or Knowledge'. I realize that, as you said, 'suicide is the culmination of someone's life', and I know that this person did not commit suicide SOLELY because they were a premie. I just want them to be remembered - is that so bad?

In your other messages to people, you talk about 'using' the dead without their knowledge or permission. As a point of fact, it's impossible to get the knowledge and permission of someone who is dead (at least as far as I know). People eulogize the dead with speeches and essays all the time, and I don't have a problem with that, do you? The minister at my dad's funeral gave a really nice eulogy for him, and I was glad to hear it - I even kept a copy of it. I WANT my father to be remembered - with his faults and everything else.

I also get the feeling that you think that some of these people may have still been devoted premies when they committed suicide - in fact, I know of one case where this IS probably true - and that they'd be offended by being associated with ex-premies. I think it's up to their friends and relatives to decide this, honestly, not you.

I am guessing you think that making a page like this and placing it on a web site that is specifically labelled 'ex-premie' would somehow be 'using' these people. This wasn't my intention when I proposed it, and I wonder where else you think these rememberances should be placed.

Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:14:20 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You don't understand
Message:
Dear Katie,
Keep the memories in your heart, plant a tree, do anything you like but to have an ex-premie org memorial page is suggesting that their death is somehow associated with being an ex-premie and that is self serving and simplistic.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:35:09 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Passing thru
Subject: No, YOU don't understand
Message:
Keep the memories in your heart, plant a tree, do anything you like but to have an ex-premie org memorial page is suggesting that their death is somehow associated with being an ex-premie and that is self serving and simplistic.

You have no say in the matter. Nothing goes on or off of this site because some devotee of Maharaji thinks it should.

And your last statement (suggesting that their death is somehow associated with being an ex-premie) shows a complete lack of understanding of what is being suggested.

It's not about being an ex-premie, PT. It's about being an ex-person. These were people just like many of us who gave everything they had to Maharaji, and he couldn't even respond to their letters asking for help. This was AFTER they had taken him at his Holy Word that they should surrender their lives to him. So don't talk about self-serving and simplistic. That you feel gratitude to Maharaji for showing you something that you were born with - that's your choice to remain tied to him and loyal to his inane 'teachings' for the rest of your life.

Your prior statement that suicide is about every cell and gene - again, you lack understanding if you consider it to be hereditary. Not that it prevents you from showing off your ignorance here...
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:54:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru'
Subject: Suicides
Message:
What an astounding way to praise Maharaji and his knowledge. Can you imagine this presented honestly to aspirants?:

'This knowledge only causes SOME people to commit suicide, others claim it saved them from suicide. Which category do you think YOU might fall into? But for the majority of people, this knowledge does not cause them to commit suicide.'

I think it's clear that the dogma of the evil mind likely did push some premies toward suicide. But I think the REAL point of all this is how it demonstrates Maharaji's essential nature. When premies committed suicide, even ashram premies who supposedly BELONGED to Maharaji, the supposed 'Master' who was so filled with love and caring for humanity, didn't even bother to comment, let alone send his condolences to the families of his (now deceased) devotees. Like everything else that might reflect negatively on him, he just ignored it, while taking credit for even the slightest good feeling any of his followers might have. What a great gig!
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:15:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You're really good today, JW
Message:
JW: Very well said, JW. That was my point with my original post concerning how the military deals with this. You won't be able to completely stop suicides, but common decency DEMANDS that you react with compassion when it does. How can M look at himself in the mirror after ignoring something of this magnitude? Jeez, even the 'government machine' reacts with more compassion than this guy.... Considering how heartless and careless the government is portrayed to be, why doesn't THIS comparison with M's lack of action raise a premie eyebrow? FEAR is the REAL answer to that question, too: WHO AM I, a mere premie, TO QUESTION THE WAY GOD ACTS?????

You know, if the government (military, in particular) reacted with as little compassion to a death as M does, the people of this country would be on it like 'stink on poop!' Why aren't premies doing the same with their LARD?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:30:41 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Talk to Katie
Message:
Dear JW,
It was Katie's idea to use the death of 'friends' to promote the teachings of the 'Ex-premie' web site.
I think it stinks.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:08:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Talk to Katie
Message:
I think it stinks.

Oh reeeeeeealllllly???, I just can't imagine why you would think that. DUH!.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:48:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Talk with me, PT
Message:
PT,

1) Do you think anyone ever got freaked out by Maharaji's teachings in the '70s?

2) If so, which teachings?

3) If so, how many? (Perhaps a percentage might be workable. Are we talking 98 per cent? 85? Maybe 60? How about as few as 40? No? Maybe 33 then? No? How about a mere 15? Too many? Okay, how about 5? Still too many (I'm not talking suicide, I'm just talking freaked out. And by that I mean frightened. How frightened? Frightened enough that, on at least one occassion, they sought someone out and told them as much. 'Hey, man, I've got to admit, this scares me a bit.')? So, what do you say? As few as 3 per cent? Come on, Pt, give me 3!

No? Okay, how about 1 per cent? For every 99 premies who were NEVER frightened by Maharaji's teaching, 1 was. Does that work? No? Okay, how about, just for argument's sake, how about .5 per cent? One in every two hundred. You have a community with two hundred premies in it, is one of them going to get freaked out at least once by his '70s teachings?

4) If you'll give me at least .5 per cent, for argument's sake, I'd ask you what percentage of THEM, the 'frightened ones', ever killed themselves? Of course the numbers are going to be small. No question. Let's start at one per cent. What do you think of that? A full one per cent of .5 per cent killed themselves because m's '70s teachings freaked them out. Are you with me there? No? Too high? How about a tenth as many? How about one in every two hundred thousand? Will you give me that, PT?

PT, how about just one premie? One premie who actually killed himself for one reason only -- he got freaked out by Maharaji's teachings in the '70s?

PT, I knew that premie. He's the one I've spoken of many times here. Dave Wiener. You didn't know him but others did. Ther is absolutely no question in my mind what happened. I know. I was there. I knew him before k. I knew him when he was elated by m's message. I knew himwhen he started feeling like he could never measure up. I was the last person to talk to him before he hung himself. Let's just say I know what was on his mind.

Did you ever read that allegorical short story, I think it was by Ursual LeGuin, about the village where everyone's completely happy but in some dark basement there's this girl bound and chained as a prisoner. In fact, the village kills her ceremoniously. Somehow, her sorrow is the price the village pays for everyone else's happiness. I think we all read it around here in grade 7 or something.

Anyway, the moral of the story -- should you accept it -- is that the village was immoral. Even one person, lost as a sacrifice (not a voluntary one either) is too high a price for some collective feelgood buzz. Ever read that? What do you think of the idea? (Or am I mixing that story up with another called 'The Lottery' where eveyone picks straws to see who must die ... same reason.) Anyway, your thoughts?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:32:37 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Talk with me, PT
Message:
Dear Jim,
How about this story.
A group called the Beatles, write a song called Helter Skelter.
Millions of people hear this song and simply enjoy it,ignore it or hate it but one person, Charles Manson,is driven to murder by it.
So do we blame the Beatles or Charles Manson?
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:07:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Excellent question, PT
Message:
How about this story.
A group called the Beatles, write a song called Helter Skelter.
Millions of people hear this song and simply enjoy it,ignore it or hate it but one person, Charles Manson,is driven to murder by it.
So do we blame the Beatles or Charles Manson?


PT,

Like all premies, you don't know how to think properly. I've read your various posts to people here and it's clear that you don't have the faintest command of logic. Or manners, by the way. (Why should I answer your question when you won't answer mine?)

Anyway, your question is a good one even if you're trying to hide behind it. The answer's simple. IF the Beatles should reasonably have expected their song could have that effect on someone, they would be clearly responsible. That's how the law sees it anyway. It's all a matter of forseeability.

So, applying that same principle here you must ask if m should have known his words and actions might reasonably be expected to send some people over the deep end. The answer's an overwhelming 'yes'. End of story.

This is rudimentary thinking, fella. VERY simple. Now you can play the fool all you want but really it's kind of helpful this time. I think you're a great example to shp of the price one pays trying to protect m. You, PT, are one big asshole.

Please, carry on.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:37:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru'
Subject: Suicides
Message:
Could you also open a list of people who I think were saved from suicide by Knowledge?
Without trying, I reckon I could name twenty and could probably come up with more.

A few things come to mind here. One is that premies don't know how to think properly. Another is that even in my most devoted hour I squirmed whenever I heard that same tired, pablum from yet another premie, 'I absolutely KNOW I wouldn't be here today if Maharaji hadn't found me.' Melodramatic and entirely unconvincing in almost every case. Speculative in the extreme, said for effect and now YOU can't let it go.

On the other hand, I concede that there must be some people who really did extricate themselves from deadly drug habits by joining the cult. Yes, the cult saved them. That's undeniable. But, don't forget, it saved them as slaves.

The suicides, PT, are different. There might be a small number who were tottering on the edge of survival to begin with. Fine, they won't count. But there were others -- LOTS others -- who lost themselves in Maharaji's do-or-die kill-the-mind-before-the-mind-kills-you fever of the seventies. You can't deny it, he can't deny it.

In the fullness of time, brother. In the fullness of time.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:42:24 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Once again..Jim
Message:
Dear Jim,
I think we've had this conversation before.
Yes, people who received Knowledge have commited suicide.
But why didn't I.
And why didn't you and Katie and Brian and JW etc and 100's of 1000's of others.
Because it isn't Maharaji or Knowledge that makes people suicidal but the life long mental and emotional state of the individual.
Knowledge won't cure cancer or aging, it won't solve money or health problems, it won't cure schizophrenia or psychosis, it won't make wrong decisions right and it won't make bad relationships good.
What it does do is offer a person the opportunity to go within and experience what is there.
After that, its up to you.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:51:01 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: it's not that simple, PT
Message:
(Actually, I've probably plagarized this subject heading from Jim in another discussion with you.)

PT,

What it does do is offer a person the opportunity to go within and experience what is there.
After that, its up to you

If it only was that simple! If you could just pay for the damn techniques and go back to your life and practice/meditate.

But, no!

It was never that simple and it still is not that simple.

The Past

First, let's talk about the past which I'm sure that you would like to rewrite. It was awful. It was hellish. The experience was simliar to hazing. Oh sure, there were some tender moments and good people along the way, but at what cost?

As JW points out above there was a heavy dogma regarding the evil mind that was in constant need of being vanquished. PT, that is a pretty severe mindfuck any way you want to cut it. It's a completely bizarre, alien, unnatural philosophy to Westerners and it, no doubt, caused disasterous consequences for many (eg. suicide, mental illness, depression, physical illnesses, problematic relationships, retarded social developement, perpetual immaturity, etc..) And don't try to get off saying that the Western philosophy of consumerism is inherently evil because Maharaji embraces it completely.

And then there was the whole story about Maharaji being The Lord of the Universe and his devotees should be nothing but a little hairs upon his body and all that crap we heard from each other and, really, from Maharaji as well.

Were you not there?

The Present

As I've said before a lot of the excesses of the '70s are gone. That's a given and that's a good thing. I applaud Maharaji for doing such.

However, are things really that different than the past?

I bailed out about a year and a half ago, so I still am current with what's happening. Also, we can get the videos if we wanted to. And don't go for a low blow saying that if I truly understood what M was saying that I'd still be there.

No, I contend that while the packaging has changed the bottomline message is still the same as 1971 - that Maharaji is The Lord of the Universe. Ok, not that, but the Master. Whatever, you want to call him it still creates a very unbalanced psychological setting where people can easily get very confused and very hurt.

Nor can you deny that Maharaji no longer espouses his rather harsh and negative worldview that premies lap up and allow to become their own. Ok, there is a bit more emphasis on the Enjoying Life aspect, but it is used comparatively to a life of ignorance and suffering by people who don't have Knowledge, people living in darkness.

If Knowledge was as simple as going within it would be a good thing. However, because you first are required to accept Maharaji and his stunted philosophy (thanks JW) there is really something very wrong and dangerous about it - just like a Cult like any other Cult with some leader, infallible father figure.

Hopefully, in the near future, after I've purged the association of Maharaji with meditating, I'm probably going to meditate again. And, you know, I'm going to call it meditation instead of practice because I'm going to call it the way it is.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:04:30 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: it's not that simple, PT
Message:
If it only was that simple! If you could just pay for the damn techniques and go back to your life and practice/meditate.

Well put, Barney. I can't fathom how anybody can think of Knowledge as being nothing more than 4 simple meditation techniques. What's this brainwashing... er, aspirant program all about if that's the case? I think you've got to be an aspirant for 6 months, minimum, before you can receive K these days. Obviously, to anyone who can THINK, there's a lot more involved than learning some meditation techniques.

By the way, I read about this nifty little technique in this book called 'Meditation For Busy People'. You focus on the air coming in and out of your nostrils while breathing. It's simple, you can do it any time and I kind of get a kick out of it. Now, if I was Maharaji, I would insist that you attend videos, travel to events, aspirant programs, etc. before revealing this simple technique to you, and then of course only after I've determined if your ready or not after meeting you for the first time in my life.

What a racket, huh?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 06:42:42 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: I was there barney..
Message:
Dear Barney,
I'm 48, I've had Knowledge for 26 years and for me its been a wonderful and fortunate experience.
Why deny the simple fact that thousands of people have had a very happy and beneficial association with Maharaji and Knowledge?
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:24:38 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: In your Mind you were there!
Message:
I will not deny that there is not an experience to be had. Even as an Ex-premie I know that and admit it. And there are thousands and thousand of people having that wonderful experience with no confusion or problems whatsoever. It is the great panacea.

However, along with that experience was a boatload of confusion. Ok, it was all my own confusion, my baggage that I couldn't surrender. Or at least that's what I was told.

Your post regarding Charlie Manson and the Beatles' 'Helter Skelter' was a real stretch, PT. First, the Beatles sold Charlie the album. They never made him listen to it. They never told him that he would go to hell if he didn't listen to it. You are completely ignoring the reliant relationship of Master and Devotee on this.

The dogmatic message of the evil mind was incessantly hammered home by Maharaji. Ignoring the possibility of undesired psychological consequences on your part is an example of how deluded you are. Admit it, there is a grain of truth in it.

I may have been a confused young person before I got knowledge, but I became suicidal afterwards because I considered myself a complete failure as a human being because I was told that this was it and this was the only way. But no matter how hard I tried it wasn't working. Oh sure, I know that you'll counter with a 'Well, you didn't give it a fair chance.' No, I did!

And some of that pathological philosophy is still being espoused today, albeit with a sugar coating.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:12:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Once again..Jim
Message:
Yes, people who received Knowledge have commited suicide.
But why didn't I.

Many of us are asking that same question. It really might be just one of life's unsolved mysteries.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:23:50 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: too busy enjoying life...
Message:
with his head in the sand and his fingers in his ears
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:03:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Take the PT test, shp
Message:
shp,

Tell me, what do you think of your fellow premie, PT, here? What do you think of his ideas that Maharaji can't be held accountable for any premies' suicides? Hm?
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:15:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
I know one premie who committed suicide, but I really can't tell you why he did it. I don't know if being a premie caused him to do it, but it was clear the knowledge and Maharaji were NOT fulfilling him, or making him ENJOY his life. That's pretty obvious. I DO know that he was practicing knowledge at the time he committed suicide, going to programs, etc. So, for that reason alone, even the idea that a devotee of the perfect master would get so miserable that he or she would commit suicide is pretty significant.

I also know a premie who ATTEMPTED suicide, and because he was my ashram roommate, I KNOW that at least the reason he gave was because he felt tormented by his sexual desires and was trying to obey Maharaji's agya and remain a celibate ashram premie. He felt his evil mind was trying to knock him off the path of devotion to the living lord. At least that's what he said. And HE was about the most diligent practicer of knowledge I ever met.

By the way, I think in each entry, the eulogizer should note whether or not Maharaj made any attempt to give condolences to the family of any of the premies who committed suicide.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:36:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
Hi Joe -
I think it's almost impossible to say whether someone committed suicide because they were a premie, and I certainly wouldn't want to imply that on any kind of list or web page. In a few cases the motivation for suicide might be clear-cut, but usually it dies with the person. I know of a case where the premie actually left a suicide note praising GMJ, which is very sad, if you ask me. But as you said, the idea that a devotee of the perfect master would get so miserable that he or she would commit suicide is pretty significant. I agree.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:05:46 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What about hospitals?
Message:
Dear Katie,
Why does the idea of someone who has received Knowledge being miserable suprise you?
Many people are attracted to Knowledge because they are disenchanted with what life has offered them so far.
Is it any suprise that a proportion of these people decide Knowledge isn't what they want and remain unhappy.
Or even enjoy Knowledge but cannot overcome the negativity created from other sources.
These are adults making their own decisions.
Does every one who plays one game of golf, play every week for their rest of their life?
Can every swimmer, swim 10 miles?
Maharaji has given Knowledge to hundreds of thousands of people over the last 30 years and some of them were completely nuts.
Is the proportion of suicides higher than for marijuana smokers,
homosexuals, soldiers or Florida waitresses?
If it is, I would suggest that it is for the same reason that hospitals are the most dangerous buildings in the world.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:44:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Falling through the cracks
Message:
Dear PT - I don't really understand the hospital analogy that you used in your above post so I won't address it (are you trying to say that sick people are attracted to Maharaji?). I should say, however, that I am NOT surprised that someone will practice knowledge and still be unhappy - I know that I was, and a lot of other people on this site were too. This is something that Maharaji himself doesn't talk about though, and I do think it's important for people to know that before they make the decision to receive K.

Maybe the K preparation process weeds out the kind of people who would be unhappy practicing knowledge these days - if so, that's good. But before that happened, a lot of people fell through the cracks, and this was seldom, if ever acknowledged. These people just disappeared, and no one ever really talked about what happened to them. As you say, they were 'adults making their own decisions', but sometimes these decisions were based on faulty or incomplete information. I'm assuming that people who think about receiving K today are also 'adults making their own decisions', and thus they are entitled to know both sides of the story.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:15:19 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie/JW/barney
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
Yeah, JW, I agree with that statement, too. It is very significant to me that my friend was not 'enjoying life' enough to keep on living it. Very significant. If knowledge was all it was cracked up to be (and Maharaji, too, for that matter) why would someone CHOOSE to leave the experience of knowledge? Why would the CHOOSE to leave being on the earth, sharing time, space and experiences with The LORD?

I also agree with something barney said above about the way that premies were under pressure to surrender more and more. If they weren't 'getting it' it was their fault. A premie who was unhappy would be told it was their fault for not enjoying life because they have the perfect master and the perfect experience. It must be them! How devastating that must be.

What makes me so angry about this subject is that the TRUTH is that he is NOT the Lord and Knowledge is not the answer to all of life's miseries, as Maharaji claimed in the 70's when my friend received knowledge. He was selling a lie.

I wonder if any families ever got any condolences out of Maharaji. If he has the compassion of PT, I guess not.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:50:39 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Everyone's choice
Message:
Dear JW,
Maharaji has always said that life is the greatest gift.
So if your ashram room mate thought he was better off dead than out of the ashram, he was a complete fool and unstable as well.
As for condolences, I wouldn't want maharaji to waste his time sending condolences when I die because every one that knows me knows that I've had a fabulous life and should have been dead years ago from too much fun.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:19:21 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Everyone's choice
Message:
[Passing thru says:
So if your ashram room mate thought he was better off dead than out of the ashram, he was a complete fool and unstable as well.]

Incredibly crass insensitive comments like this show just how concerned you really are about being respectful of these people.
How did you ever get to be like this?

I think that Katie is a wonderful person to do this. It should absolutely be done respectfully together with impressions of those who remember them. I would personally suggest that the last names be saved but not put in the public html.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:10:12 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: All heart pt
Message:
'So if your ashram room mate thought he was better off dead than out of the ashram, he was a complete fool and unstable as well.'

Your deep respect for the dead seems to have disappeared pretty quick, what a shallow little creep you are.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:13:28 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: All heart pt
Message:
PT just emulates his teacher.i.e no humanness and complete cowards.

Happy new year...I'm going to Wirly Gig tonite in Bethenal Green.

PS the disco you put on for Clare's 11th was great, it was privilage to help setting up such an event :>)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:48:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Everyone's choice
Message:
Got to say PT, that was one of the stupidest and most insensitive posts I have ever read on this forum, and I have read a lot of them. I guess you win the prize. I won't dignify your post with a response. Happy New Year.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:01:02 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT the super-hero...
Message:
...fanning, I mean stomping out, hundreds of fires all over this thread
...twisting steel-logic bars into pretzels
...transforming golden motives into lead
...crushing mere mortals beneath his mighty scorn
...walking on water in his fabulous life

What a loser.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:45:45 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: I've just realized...
Message:
which super-hero PT is!

He's Newt Gingrich!!

Their rhetorical styles are identical. Harsh & strident, then cajoling, then trying (but failing) to sound concerned & compassionate. But always, ALWAYS, superior & condescending.

And the same element at the core of their communication styles: manipulation. Cynical, knowing manipulation.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:45:42 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: well spotted, peter (nt)
Message:
indeed.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:55:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: well spotted, peter
Message:
It's way too late and I should be in bed, but when I read that PT was Newt it woke me right up. Now I'll never get to bed, so thanks a lot;)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:34:06 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premie Suicides
Message:
Hi Katie, I think this is a wonderful idea, it never hurts to set up a memorial to somebody in a respectful way, and I can't see how their families could object to this if it could possibly help others in the long run.

What about having an entry for Pat Halley (Hailey?), the young guy who threw the pie at Maharaji back in the 70s and was subsequently attacked by Fakarinand and an accomplice in a systematic way with a hammer and had to have a metal plate inserted in his skull? Did we ever ascertain if he really died? I know there was some discussion about this awhile back in its own thread. I think if he did die he deserves a place on the web page.

And possibly even those four Florida ashram sisters who were also murdered by a madman with a gun (a bongo premie who supposedly had divine guidance, wasn't it??) I don't know much about either incident, so if anybody does, they can supply the facts.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:14:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: How about RECENT suicides?
Message:
Someone emailed me mentioning a couple of fairly recent suicides in the Denver area. Anyone know anything about Sarah Bystrom or Henry Cam (sp?). Also, this person happened to mention that Tallahassee incident as well. He said the guy's name was Doug Briggs and he shot three 'sisters' in their sleep. I believe one died, one was crippled and the other 'just' badly disfigured.

But what ABOUT more recent suicides?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:50:50 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How about RECENT suicides?
Message:
I almost fell off my chair- I know a Henry Camm- he was a good friend from my childhood who I ran in to wandering around the Houston Astrodome during Milleneum.

I would really like to know if it's the same person. His father and mine were CIA buddies, and we knew them in Brasil and Panama.

This suicide thing is getting a bit freaky.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:18:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: How about RECENT suicides?
Message:
dv,

I'm sorry that's all I know. This ex emailed me only that he'd heard it as a rumour. Perhaps you can look into this somehow yourself or, if there's anyone else out there, anyone from Denver...?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:18:54 (EST)
From: Safely Away
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: My letter to GMJ for help
Message:
When I was living in San Diego I was feeling very, very lost and I wrote my first and only letter to Maharaji asking for help.

I waited and waited for a response, but I knew not to expect one directly from him. Perhaps, I would be given a cosmic sign or he would mention me in a satsang.

I never did get anything, although maybe he did give me something. At this one program he came out the first night and just seemed pissed off and launches into a nasty tirade with the message of 'if you aren't happy then get out of here'. As confused as I was I thought that he was speaking to me.

I'm safely away from you, Maharaji. You could have suggested that I seek professional help, but you didn't.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:16:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Safely Away
Subject: My letter to GMJ for help
Message:
dear Safely Away -
I'm really glad you are both safe AND away. (And that you didn't expect an answer from GMJ).
Take care -
Katie
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:44:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Safely Away
Subject: My letter to GMJ for help
Message:
Great post, Safely. I'm glad you got away too. Life isn't always easy but it's at least more sane without all the confusion of GM's so-called 'path'.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:49:27 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Safely Away & Jim
Subject: My letter to GMJ for help
Message:
Hey Safely,

Welcome and congradulations on your escape!

I think you might get a laugh out of one of Jim's posts to 'CD' about Maharaji in heaven. You can find it here...

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1151/claimscm.htm
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:05:01 (EST)
From: Safely Away
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: My letter to GMJ for help
Message:
Yes, I remember that one. Thank the Living Master of Our Time that somebody saved that one!
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 04:16:30 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hello to all and a Happy New Year.

I found this site a few days ago and since then have spent several hours each morning systematically reading through (most of) the contents. There is a lot of info to take in and I'm still feeling many different emotions.

It has brought back so many memories of what was one of the most important and most intense periods of my life. It is also one which I have not talked about with anyone for a very long time and am now realising that I have suppreseed a great deal of feelings about it that are just now starting to emerge.

I've had no contact or news about DLM (as I assumed it still was) for years and am absolutely stunned by some of the changes that have taken place. No ashrams? No satsang and devotion? No more constant meditation ordered? Just lots of fund-raising and events that they pay to get into? Is this it or have I misunderstood what I've been reading? This is not a rhetorical question, I really am finding this hard to take in.

Before K I lived in Cornwall, Alsager (Cheshire) and Leicester ('70-'72) and lost contact with many people after K. I was an active premie from January 1973 until mid '76, living in Leicester and Paradise Farm in '73, Oxford ashram, Unity School (Devon)and Plymouth ashram ('74), then as a non-ashram premie in Penzance and St Ives Cornwall and Clapham London until I drifted away in spring '76.

So I'm writing this message for several reasons: the first is of course simply to say 'hello' so that I may participate in discussions.

The second is to say that if anyone remembers me from any of these places, even if only vaguely (I was quite a visible premie although a very unstable personality and do not expect to be remembered with much affection) then please feel free to contact me. Especially if, like me, you are trying to piece together what the fuck happened and work out just what it was really all about.

It seems as if a huge tornado entered our lives at that time and swept us, and everything around us, away up into the air and deposited us all over the place, scattered like refugees. I read one of the experiences of someone whose girl-friend was moved to Brighton ashram, just a few miles away really, and has never seen her since. It's like the aftermath of a war. Lots of gurus came but M seemed to have had an impact on a much wider scale than any of the others and so much of it has proved to be destructive.

Finally, I have some specific questions. Did Rennie Davis stay with M or has he left by now? Also, any news of Saph and Milky? I met Saph a couple of times and he seemed genuine. Milky was of course in the US when I joined and a bit of a star. I remember people talking about the mean tricks that M played on milky, like putting pepper in his food and making him eat it. Of course we all envied milky for the personal spiritual teaching he was getting and the lifetimes of karma that were being burned off by these actions of the lord.

I cannot now remember if I was told by the mahatma that MJ was the Perect Master and greater than God although I think it very likely since that was the whole tune at the time. For the record, I was definitely asked to swear eternal devotion to MJ before receiving K (from charanand).

I have to go, the baby needs some attention (I am now one of these middle-aged parents). One last question - what do people who were close to him say about charanand? He seemed sincere to me but I saw nothing of course.

Syd
http://www.gold.ac.uk/~syd/ for a crappily-scanned photo
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 05:56:39 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Do you remember any more of those things he did to MIlky?

Milky asked prem rawat to give him the experience of knowledge
for a day and (in my opinion) rawwat gave him LSD (acid)
and that is why milky had a intense day that day.

Meaness has been his personal hallmark which is why his public front as -master of life- is so much a wolf in sheeps clothing act.
He is still demanding devotion and in india and africa he has
arti sung.
Kissing his feet has happenend in the west in recent years.
He has a long running affair with (get this) Monica lewis.
Name like the clinton girl. His wife knows and doesn't allow her in her house (anymore) but still the lord cheats on her.

Also, his mom finally died. He never saw her again after
she said he was a fake. He couldn't manage to find enough
love for her to see her for 17 years till her death.

He did go to the burning of her body.
How sweet of him.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 01:45:11 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: bb
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Sorry, no I don't recall any other stories about Milky. He was outside my orbit. Some of the people who we thought of as 'long-time devotees' at that time (like, two years of K) seemed to have very mixed opinions of him.

Is he still part of the set-up?

Who is Monica Lewis?

Syd
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:23:56 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hi Syd,
if you also want to see 'the other side of the coin', you can check out www.enjoyinglife.org.

you write:
' No satsang and devotion? No more constant meditation ordered? Just lots of fund-raising and events that they pay to get into? Is this it or have I misunderstood what I've been reading?'

my answer:
this is just one side of the coin. as far as i am concerned this is totally false. Anyways, it is up to you to find out more. ( as a 'praticing premie', i do not really 'belong' on this site and will probably get flamed (again] for posting something positive about this subject...
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:45:17 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
What positive have you said?
Kindly state what is totally false.
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:14:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Orlando: I have to echo bill's questions. What is 'totally false' here, be specific please. What did YOU say in your post that was 'positive?' Sorry, I didn't see ANYTHING in your post that could be considered 'positive' in nature.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:16:09 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Orlando,

if you also want to see 'the other side of the coin', you can check out www.enjoyinglife.org.

Thanks, I saw this site mentioned here on ex-premies.org in fact, the first time I looked in (which I thought said something about the sense of conviction and fairness of the people who run this site).

I had a look at it on the same day that I found ex-premies.org as I had decided to try and find out what had happened to maharaji and DLM. The net seemed a good place since there was nothing in the phone directory and the old ashrams I tried to revisit, such as Leicester, had gone. But it didn't seem to give me much information other than that Glen and Charanand are still around and some telephone contact numbers.

I was struck by Charanand's description of M as 'a competant teacher'. Mahatam Guru Charanand initiated me into K in '73 at The Avenue, Muswell Hill and he has always had a special place in my heart as I would have accepted him as my guru if he had not been a devotee of M and told me to follow him instead. It seemed like such faint praise and a strangely lukewark description, especially from some one who once told me that when M was born the sky was full of lights as all the beings of the universe came to witness the coming of the Lord of the Universe.

When did you receive K and what were you told about M at the time?

' No satsang and devotion? No more constant meditation ordered? Just lots of fund-raising and events that they pay to get into? Is this it or have I misunderstood what I've been reading?'

my answer:
this is just one side of the coin. as far as i am concerned this is totally false

So you mean that premies are still told to devote their lives to the Living Lord and that they are still given a Divine Commandment to meditate on the Word 24 hours a day? This seems very different than I've been hearing. Can you explain in a little more detail, please? This is a genuine request.

Regards
Syd
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:54:54 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
>Just lots of fund-raising and events that they pay to get into?

I went to a 3 day event in Wembley Arena July 1998. You could have walked in the door. I walked around Trafalgar Square one night and revisited some memories of the small parade and rally held there back in 73. My K session was with an Indian lady in 1972 in London.
I saw Charanand walking around the event in Pasadena California that was held a few weeks back. He looked happy.
I continue to enjoy attending events with M and do contribute some money to support the expense of the programs.
This web site has been here for over a year so you can imagine that there has been quite an exchange of emotions, viewpoints and words both kind and harsh coming from all directions.
Don't liquidate, keep on truckin that long strange trip and have a good New Year!

Regards,
CD
San Diego,CA
www.cdickey.com
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:48:25 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Syd
Subject: The Long, Strange Trip
Message:
I don't think anyone got into Guru Maharaj Ji's dirty little cult for a long, strange trip, CD. Syd isn't liquidating his life--he only cashed in his guru chips. He just wants to know what has happened with the cult for the last 22 years.

I take it, Syd, that you have read the AJW Journeys entry. He was Premlata's teacher in England. His entry is long but well worth the read. You are smart to stick around for a while to clear your cobwebs.

I've been in a bad marriage with MJ for 24 years. I've heard that obsessing and rage are common for about one month per year, after the fact. I have about 18 months to go (unless I'm a fast learner).

Do check out enjoyinglife.org. All entries are edited. They all sound like this: Maharaji is beautiful. Knowledge is beautiful. Life is beautiful.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:30:34 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: The Long, Strange Trip
Message:
Gail,

Thank you for your long and thoughtful response to my message.

He just wants to know what has happened with the cult for the last 22 years.

Yes, that was the start. All traces seemed to have disappeared so it occured to me on boxing day to try a web search. I found this site and from here the official premie sites which I've also read in detail.

I take it, Syd, that you have read the AJW Journeys entry.

Finding that story is one of the things that has made the biggest impact on me. AJW was one of my oldest friends from before we ever heard of DLM. I personally knew this man and always trusted his sincerity (not the same as agreeing with him).

After joining up we lived near each other for a while in Clapham (london UK). I have lost complete touch with him but for the first couple of days, as I read this site, I often wondered if I could find Anth again and ask him about all this stuff. He was always sincere and fiercely intelligent. It wasn't until the third day here (monday last, the 28th) that I looked at the Journeys entries and clicked on the first one. I was stunned to see his name there, so stunned that I broke down in tears. I have emailed him and hope to make contact again soon. It will be at least 12 years since we've had any contact.

I was part of the theatre group he mentions who put on plays for children in care and people in mental hospitals. Fittingly, we even performed one play in the Palace of Peace, attracting both audiences simultaneously. It was a sort of parable (based on traditional themes such as red riding Hood) in which a shining youg minstrel saves the lost children from the wicked witch. All the premies knew what it really meant but I doubt if anyone else we took it to had a clue about the message it was intended to signify. AJW was the witch and I was the minstrel (not that I could play much guitar).

I remember doing a bit of mime of feeling my way across an invisible wall, which I had pinched from seeing the David Bowie 'Cracked Actor' documentary. As I moved across the floor I remember one of the premies shouting out 'mind the milk bottles!' which was really funny (no sarcasm intended). The premies were the best audience we ever had, actually. Outside of the ashrams, there was a lot of fun and laughter. Does anyone remember the xmas pantomime with people like Glen and Ashokanand sending themselves up?

Long strange trip? Yes indeed, one of several! 'Mother, mother, many worlds I've crossed/ since I first left home'. Or, as Dylan wrote so long ago, 'he not busy being born is busy dying' - the nearest thing I've had as a constant guiding principle in the last 30 years.

regards
Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:30:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: The Long, Strange Trip
Message:
Dear Syd,
It is good to read your posts. You seem at ease within yourself and open. I am so glad you've found an old dear friend here. I have not but I have certainly 'meet' some wonderful new people some of whom I now consider additions to my list of dearest friends.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:50:13 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: The Long, Strange Trip
Message:
Robyn,
Thanks for the kind words. I left the ashram in '75 because it seemed ridiculously young to say that I was renouncing the world when I had actually experienced so little of it at age 23. How can you leave somthing you've never had or known?

A lot has happened since then and I think that finally I've stopped attacking myself as much as I used to. I have been very fortunate in my life to have met someone who is kind, good humoured and tolerant. My 'other half' Tamzin. She, and my mother, are the people I owe everything to.

Actually, that sounds very serious butwe have a lot of laughs because we have a very similar sense of humour - once I'd learned to stop taking myself so seriously.

When I was a devoted satsang-giving premie, I'd have said that the way I've lived since leaving shows someone totally in their head who was living in hell. Well, it is more than worth it.

Love to you and yours also
Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:20:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
CD: I take it that 'Don't liquidate, keep on truckin that long strange trip' means 'don't think about anything, don't question anything and don't listen to anything/anyone that doesn't agree with everything that M says' in premie-speak, right?

You HAVE turned an interesting phrase when you call M and K a 'long, strange TRIP.' The problem is, the beginning of THAT road has a 'dead-end' sign in front of it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 11:05:46 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mike
Subject: Introducing CD
Message:
Re: Don't liquidate, keep on truckin that long strange tri

Chris found the word liquidation on Syd's page, along with a reference to the Grateful Dead. While he wasn't able to grasp the context it was used in (ecological), he liked the word so he used it in his post.

He's simply trying to establish rapport in his own inane style. You know - say he was in England, mention Trafalgar Square, etc. He propably didn't think that Syd had ever been stupid enough to swim the Ganges, so that one got left out...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:08:17 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Can I go to Wembley, next time
Message:
or will they exclude me from an event there as well. There is no open door policy, CD. I couldn't get in with an invitation even though I have never created a scene at a MJ event. Why not? Most of what MJ said was put on the net anyway. What are these folks really afraid of? THEMSELVES???

This forum only helps people who want to see the truth and be free, CD. It has not affected your belief in MJ and K, has it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Gail & everyone
Subject: Can I go to Wembley, next time
Message:
Hi Gail,

I suspect that the premies are very afraid of MJ's potential disapproval and this may be the source of why you were excluded.

Could anyone comment to what extent fear is involved in the MJ-premie relationship? I wonder to what extent premies are trapped by fear with the only escape being to totally devote themselves to MJ in hopes of escaping his diapproval?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:29:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
JW once wrote about how the 'fear is so thick you can cut it with a knife.' I agree with him
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 17:36:41 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Fear
Message:
That's very interesting Helen. I suspect that most of the people in the situation that JW described would deny being afraid even though it was obvious to JW. Maybe this is a way out for some people - to first realize that thay ARE really afraid of MJ.
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 18:22:40 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
Saul: OR possibly 'afraid' of failure! 'Oh no, if I quit M, I won't realize the knowledge.... what, oh what will become of me?'

I don't remember who posted it (Jim maybe?), but someone said one of the 'steps' to extricating themselves from the holy-thumb was to decide that realization of knowledge was really no big deal.... 'Who cares if I don't realize knowledge?' A better question might be 'What difference does it make if I DO realize knowledge?' From the actual 'humanitarian output' that I see oozing from Elan Vital, the answer is... NOT MUCH!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 21:06:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
There was a thread awhile back (maybe before you started posting here) in which folks (I think Diz and JW) were talking about how as premies, there was a lot of pressure to self-censure whatever one said. Words had to follow a certain acceptable conversational code, ie., 'premie-speak'. If this reflect that we were in a cult I don't know what did!

Fear took a big role in this self-censuring.
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 23:07:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
'If this did not reflect that we were in a cult I don't know what did' is what I meant to say. I can't write properly no more! I been stunned by the holidaze. Help me help me
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:08:09 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Fear
Message:
Hi Helen,

What I'm thinking is that many premies may be controlled by fear but may not realize this. Is there a simple way to make someone realize that they have gotten into such a state?

If I was talking to a premie now, I would suggest this experiment. The experiment is to say an insulting sentence about MJ (e.g. Maharaji is a Big Fat Slob and his music stinks!)
out loud. The point is not to belive it or agree with it or anything like that, the experiment is only to utter the words out loud. This might be a revealing moment if someone realizes that they really ARE afraid to say or maybe even think something like that.

Just a thought.

Cheers and Happy New Year to everyone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 11:45:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
I think (to use a Freudian term) GM becomes a sort of superego within a person, making people shameful & frightened to say anything against him (cause he's the Lord, you know, and sees all). Despite the fact that GM has invented himself as the hip Lord who is beyond all our concepts, he really engenders a firghtened type of fundamentalism in his devotees (the ones who are really into him, that is).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:40:57 (EST)
From: Christian
Email: Christian-Zipp@t-online.de
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
I don´t fear if you say something crazy about anyone. My wife calls him (M) Mickey Mouse because of his voice, this is no problem for me. I very often said that i´m a member of a 'criminal youth cult' but believe me, really it was a joke. I don´t say this because of any fears. It is not the problem what you say or think about it, important is what you feel (about it not against it).
Sincerely
Christian
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:45:32 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Christian
Subject: FEAR
Message:
Hi Christian,

I sometimes think that the people who get k but keep their distance can manage to avoid bad effects, and you may have done this. The experiment I suggested, though, was for you
(rather than your wife) to say something really insulting about M (many examples can be found in Jim's posts) and check if you feel fear at the thought of actually repeating this in a loud clear voice.

I think that humans are much more constrained by social pressures than they realize (and this would apply in premidom as well, I suppose). For example, suppose you are sitting in a large concert hall listening to a classical violin performance with a large well dressed audience. You notice, however, that the violinist's fly is partially undone. You could, in principle, just walk up on stage and zip it up for him. However, I think that even if you wanted to do that, the number of human beings who could manage this feat is VERY small indeed. In essence, you are constrained by fear of the crowd's disapproval. In order to avoid such unpleasant feelings, you have internalized the crowd's desires and will automatically avoid any thought or action along those lines. It's like a guy tied to a tree with a length of rope who claims that he is a free man - he just really likes this particular tree and wants to stay close to it.

best wishes for the new year.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:37:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Fear
Message:
Dear Helen,
You are to funny! :) One more to go!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 11:52:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Insanity
Message:
One more holiday to go...and I haven't even been drinkin' nuffin', and my brain is addled. Happy New Year are you freezing your ass off up there?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 17:33:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Insanity
Message:
Dear Helen,
Yes, freezing my ass off!!! At 4:10pm it was 11 degrees, single digits at night for the next few nights. Wood heat is nice at these temps. I always say I have no right to live in PA and they should throw me out of the state. I HATE the cold and snow on the roads!
I am going to a friend's and wish I could just stay home because it is going to be so cold and the drunks on the roads. What I won't do for my friends and what they won't do for me too! :)
Happy New Year to all.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:18:48 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Fear
Message:
Hi Saul

Yeah, Helen's right, I picked up on what JW said about fear. Because I was afraid - and yes, you're right, I still don't feel all that good about admitting it. It's dorky to be afraid, I guess.

And I'm still not real clear what exactly I was afraid of. Some possibilities:

- blowing my precious, god-given life by having doubts

- blowing my precious, goodness-know-who-given life by NOT having doubts - ie, I wasn't prepared to surrender my own understanding and perceptions, without good reason

- the constant demands (which of course were a BLESSING - oh I was so unsurrendered/ungrateful - and guilty) to do MORE service, satsang and meditation - then participation, practice and programs - when there were other things in my life that I also wanted to do. Like be around for my kids, do my job well... I'm not very good at doing a bunch of things at once, and I always felt under pressure and not quite able to keep up.

- being ostracised for having doubts - this was probably a big one because all, or almost all, my friends were premies. And I needed support and friendship, as I was raising kids by myself.

- being seen as stupid/trivial/worthless, or even rejected, by the Lord of the Universe, whom I found I didn't always agree with. I really believed he was 'it', and although I hoped that he'd accept me as I was, questions and all, I got the distinct impression that he much preferred those who were positive through and through. Remember, this was supposedly my number one relationship (even as I write this, I can hear premies laughing at me for wanting MJ to even know who I was! But how can you have your primary relationship with someone who doesn't even know you??) For years I hoped he and I might be able to have some sort of discussion, such as friends have, and come to some understanding of each other, both common ground and differences. Of course, it never happened.

- not being able to cope in 'the world' due to lack of support, social skills, money (all spent on programs)...

- the discovery that something so beautiful (I did find meditation very beautiful) was inextrictably linked with an authoritarian, closed, controlled trip where questions were discouraged and humanitarian values were laughed down. I found this VERY hard to understand and very distressing.

That's probably explanation enough for why I got scared.

Good to meet you, Saul.

Diz
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 01:35:40 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Fear
Message:
Thanks for the explanation Diz. Is your journey on this site? How did you escape?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:33:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Saul/Diz
Subject: Fear
Message:
Saul,

I agree that 'fear' among premies isn't always conscious. It's kind of automatic, and if you asked a premie if they were fearful, they would deny it, because they are SUPPOSED to be experiencing happiness and love. I think a lot of the things Diz said are very valid, but, for me, the fear boiled down to:

1. I believed Maharaji was god incarnate and really my only hope of salvation. I feared making a mistake; I feared letting mind get ahold of me and falling into the bottomless pit and missing out, perhaps for eternity, on my only chance. Maharaji said stories that supported this. Like the one about the guy who bends down to get a drink of water (becomes distracted) and he wastes his whole life without even realizing it. Maharaji, at least in the late 70s and early 80s, gave a lot of very threatening satsangs that reinforced this, and, of course, he scared the shit out of the intiators in those training programs and they repeated that stuff to the rest of us. A corrolary to this is a fear of being rejected by Maharaji, or of displeasing him. I think this fear clearly still exists. That's why premies are so afraid to say anything, especially if it deviates from the current party line. They are terrified of doing something M doesn't like, and particularly that is might get back to him.

2. I wanted to be the best devotee I could be to hopefully serve, and even get near, Maharaji. Any expression or thought I had that constituted doubt, was scary as a result. I wouldn't dare express the doubts I had, and I even tried to suppress the thoughts. Since they kept recurring, it was frightening. I also feared my desires, and as a normal young human being, I had a lot of them.

3. People who became ex-premies were especially frightening; they were examples of what could happen to me. They seemed normal and happy, despite rejecting Maharaji. This was very frightening and very confronting.

4. Some of the initiators were particularly good at demonstrating fear. I think because they were paranoid, uptight, fearful people themselves. David Smith and Ira Woods come to mind, but also Arthur Brigham, Anne Johnston, and some others were particularly that way. I don't think any of them were having a very nice experience at all. They wreaked of fear and paranoia much of the time. I think I've said before, David Smith, in my experience, was particularly this way. Especially if you lived in an ashram were one of these people came and resided, sometimes for months at a time, it had a real influence on the ashramites, and the whole community.

5. Finally, as Diz said, there was a fear of rejection by other premies, and most of us had cut off all other support in our lives, so getting rejected by premies meant being alone. The fear was being seen as a 'bongo' premie, or a 'confused' premie. That was the ultimate banishment. There is a very strong group control in the premie world. Someone who doesn't conform is labeled 'bongo' or 'confused' and gossiped about, ostracized somewhat, perhaps patronized, at least from the 'good' service, and any hope of getting close to M. I know this, because, with some feeling of guilt, I recall treating certain premies this way.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:56:48 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Fear
Message:
Great post JW! I can most definitely relate to every point you made.
While we're on this subject of fear,I thought I'd share with you guys the daily qoute from today's Montreal Gazette newspaper:
'Fear makes the wolf bigger than he is'
German proverb
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:04:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Fear
Message:
JW: From my point of view, you are right on the money with your description of the various 'fears' that did (and probably still do) exist. Fear number (5) was a biggie, especially later on. In the beginning of my participation, it seemed that being a bongo was, let's say, OK. Definitely not encouraged, but 'OK'. NOW, they seem to be totally anal about how they 'tow the line.'

Funny, but it seems like the term, 'do your own thing' is now equated with, 'do your own thing, just so it's exactly like MY thing.' (e.g. think what I think without question, do what I do without question and, most definitely, say what I say without deviation!) ELK censorship is proof of the latter sentiment!
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 00:03:21 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Can I go to Wembley, next time
Message:
Hi Gail
Just a reminder that the excerpts of rawat on that
avoiding life.org are missing all the comments he makes about
his own crucial self importance at these talks.
The references to -the master of life- and all the rest.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:35:49 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
CD,

Thanks for the reply. You seem to be saying that you have taken the parts that work for you, is that right?

Did you ever live as an ashram premie or did you always stay outside of that part?

As someone who's been around the scene for a long time, do you find that the atmosphere is more relaxed and less demanding now than it was, say in 73-75?

Regards
Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 20:22:24 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: parts that work
Message:
>You seem to be saying that you have taken the parts that work for you, is that right?

I see M as a spokesperson for what I believe to be true about the source of conciousness inside people. His fundamental message today is the same as it was back in 1972. The same mystery and questions still surround him. The ultimate answer and benefit is still to be found in an experience and in joy.
It does not feel like I am taking. It is more as if I am being reminded of something that exists. Though it may sound too simple, for that I am thankful. I like the analogy of the peace and mystery of staring at the stars on a clear evening. A beautiful feeling without explanation. Certainly we can analyze the universe much better with Hubble, but can we really?
Yes, I am quite aware of the controversies, the endless questioning and 'rational' debates. But that is not where I derive my benefit from the whole affair so they are curiosities.
Something does work for me and I enjoy it.

>Did you ever live as an ashram premie or did you always stay outside of that part?

I lived a bit of the ashram life and was in some premie houses.

>do you find that the atmosphere is more relaxed and less demanding now than it was, say in 73-75?

Ultimately the atmosphere is always demanding because of what the essence of the topic is. But of course these days you do not have to leaflet in the London underground as I did.
The atmosphere is evolving with time.
Can you achieve success without demanding much of your self?

It does take practice for the great music to flow fluently from the soul where it always exists to the fretboard of the guitar and beyond.

Happy New Year,
CD

ps - contrary to some bizarre opinions, I read this forum of my own choosing and speak for myself on matters that interest me
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:07:45 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: parts that work
Message:
[CD writes: His fundamental message today is the same as it was back in 1972. The same mystery and questions still surround him. The ultimate answer and benefit is still to be found in an experience and in joy.]

What Mystery? There's more mystery about L.Ron Hubbard if you ask me.

I find your post dishonest and sneaky CD. You are suggesting that M must be special because so many questions surround him. I think that this is propaganda set up by M to lure people in(remember 'Who is Maharaja Ji?' --- ooooh what big mystery).

[CD writes: I am thankful. I like the analogy of the peace and mystery of staring at the stars on a clear evening. A beautiful feeling without explanation.]

Guess what? I can experience this too and without a fat Indian businessman's permission.

[CD writes: It does take practice for the great music to flow fluently from the soul where it always exists to the fretboard of the guitar and beyond.]

Eeewwww... this is REALLY stinking up the place. In my experience, honest expressions don't come out so syrupy and fake sounding.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:26:24 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: cd
Subject: parts that work in dreams
Message:
'His fundamental message today is the same as it was back in 1972'.

Ahh at last an honest statement, you mean as in, I am the Lord of the Universe, greater than god and if you hang around for another twenty years there will be peace on earth.

Set phasers to stun, 'I've only just begun'.

Meanwhile the proportion of the worlds population that has heard of, let alone got interested in, the great hp from the sky gets smaller and smaller. The wonders of guru indeed.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 21:58:02 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: evasive bullshit
Message:
I see M as a spokesperson for what I believe to be true about the source of conciousness inside people.

Do you mean 'a' spokesperson, or 'the' spokesperson, CD. Who are the others?

His fundamental message today is the same as it was back in 1972.

That is crap and you know it. He never mentions 'devotion', 'surrender' or 'constantly meditate and remember the holy name', for starters.

The same mystery and questions still surround him.

Which mystery are you referring to: the 'Who-the-fuck-does-he-think-he-is' mystery, or the 'How-the-hell-does-he-get-away-with-it-mystery'? Or is there another mystery? Tell us about it, Chris.

The ultimate answer and benefit is still to be found in an experience and in joy.

Passive tense Chris. Are you saying Mr Rawat gives you an ultimate experience of joy? How so? By showing you how to squeeze yer eyeballs and watch yer breath? Is he the only person who could have done this for you Chris?

It does not feel like I am taking.

Sounds more like you have been taken in.

It is more as if I am being reminded of something that exists.

Which something had you forgotten, Chris, for which only Mr Rawat could identify the correct location?

Though it may sound too simple, for that I am thankful.

Duh!!!

I like the analogy of the peace and mystery of staring at the stars on a clear evening. A beautiful feeling without explanation.

But I stare at the stars on a clear evening. We all can. We can all get beautiful feelings without explanation. Again, are you saying Mr Prem Rawat is some unique experience provider, giving something you can't find elsewhere, Chris? I mean, is THAT what you're saying and are you SURE about this?

Certainly we can analyze the universe much better with Hubble, but can we really?

Of course we can. Once they finally got the the mirrors fixed, it has been quite a boon to astronomy, I understand. (Maybe I'll check with Mike about this...)

Yes, I am quite aware of the controversies, the endless questioning and 'rational' debates.

Of course you're aware of them, but like your hamster, choose to ignore them. So much easier all round.

But that is not where I derive my benefit from the whole affair so they are curiosities.

Too vague, Chris. Nobody will have the foggiest what you're on about.

Ultimately the atmosphere is always demanding because of what the essence of the topic is.

You mean because Mr Rawat is being discussed as if he were a grubby little mortal rather than a pure white lily on a pond, you get all hot under the collar and lose all powers of articulation.

But of course these days you do not have to leaflet in the London underground as I did. The atmosphere is evolving with time.

That damn atmosphere. First it's demanding. Now it's evolving. What next? Stifling?

Can you achieve success without demanding much of your self?

Success at what? Demanding much of what? There is very little demanded of premies nowadays. What is it? - an hour under the blanket plus the odd video. How come twenty years ago Knowledge was a dawn-to-dusk commitment every day? How much is required of you, Chris? - and what is your effort, these days? I think that's what Syd wants to know.

It does take practice for the great music to flow fluently from the soul where it always exists to the fretboard of the guitar and beyond.

Too profound for me, man. Willi would like it, though.

ps - contrary to some bizarre opinions, I read this forum of my own choosing and speak for myself on matters that interest me

You've been lurking the whole of this last year, Chris, chiming in then running away, but never once do you converse with anyone. Never engage in a single discussion. You just float these half-assed thought bubbles and imagine they somehow serve the greater good of Mr Rawat's guru business. But I suppose Syd will soon see this for himself if he chooses to stick around.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:54:18 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: parts that work
Message:
CD
Thanks for the reply. Will consider and reply later.
Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 02:52:26 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
>I saw Charanand walking around the event in Pasadena California that was held a few weeks back.He seemed happy.<
Oh yeah, when was the last time you someone like Ira Woods, or better still Joan Apter?
The last time I saw these people...they did not look happy at all...they looked lost and broken to me.In fact,it was kind of heart breaking to look at them.
Oh well, that's life with Maharaji I guess.You enjoy CD ...and have a HAPPY NEW BREATH !!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:09:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey, where's my phone call?
Message:
CD,

Last year you called me around now to say 'hi' and then get off the phone. I'm in and out a lot over the next couple of days and I REALLY don't want to miss your call. Any idea when we might expect you? Care to convert this into a worldwide event or something?

I walked around Trafalgar Square one night and revisited some memories of the small parade and rally held there back in 73. My K session was with an Indian lady in 1972 in London.

Now that IS interesting! Trafalgar square AND an Indian lady. Both in London and in consecutive years. Wow! Any chance the Indian lady was also in the small parade? I'm just trying to get an angle on this, Chris. This is extremely potent stuff you're serving. Thanks for the bite-size pieces.

I saw Charanand walking around the event in Pasadena California that was held a few weeks back. He looked happy.

Chris, you could have been a psychologist if you wanted. Mind you, that would have been philosophy's loss. God, THAT's a hard one! Does the world need CD as a psychologist or philosopher? Hmm..

I continue to enjoy attending events with M and do contribute some money to support the expense of the programs.

In depth, up close and personal! Chris, you nailed that point perfectly. I couldn't have said it better myself. By the way, is that you who posted the 'Wit and Wisdom' quote on ELK? The one Chauncy from Being There is so well known for:

'I like to watch'

This web site has been here for over a year so you can imagine that there has been quite an exchange of emotions, viewpoints and words both kind and harsh coming from all directions.

This is NOT trite, no it isn't. I've waited far too long for someone to hve the courage and insight to speak this same, powerful truth. Thank you, Chris, thank you.

Don't liquidate, keep on truckin that long strange trip and have a good New Year!

Don't forget 'Hi!'.
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:55:38 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Welcome syd!

Don't miss the 'Nuts and Bolts' page.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:39:22 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Saul
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Welcome syd! Don't miss the 'Nuts and Bolts' page.

Thanks, Saul. I had a good look through it a couple of days ago. I need to read it all again. The history section was the most interesting part for me so far, just trying to fill in the gaps. I'm beginning to realise that I had a lucky escape by getting away before the 're-dedication' stuff started. I could have been really lost.

Syd
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 10:12:30 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hi Syd. Rennie Davis bailed out, and is living in Colorado pondering the next great movement. He'll probably let us all in on it when he decides what it is :)

CD and Orlando are self-styled premie lifeguards who read this forum and jump in to 'rescue' the new arrivals to the river of bondage to Maya. There are others, since Elan Vital monitors this forum.

Maharaji has recently discovered how to make a buck off of the net, and so EV-connected websites are springing up. Enjoyinglife.org is one of them, as it's run by Visions International editors (the company that sells the guru's paraphenalia to the trinket-hungry faithful). Maharaji.org is yet another that is in the process of being launched.
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 11:00:26 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hey Syd...
This site questions what to trip is really all about premies dont like M being questioned..just go with the flow your mind is the real problem ...its the same old shit from the 70;s just dressed up a little bit ...but i find it pretty scarry...as you can see the the people that monitor this site ...for the big M, want to get to you quick, so you dont have time to evaluate for yourself whats really up..... stick arround its all about Money&Power always has been...peace....dave
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:56:25 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: david m
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
David,

as you can see the the people that monitor this site ...for the big M, want to get to you quick, so you dont have time to evaluate for yourself whats really up.....

Yeah, got that! Thanks.

I've been evaluating this stuff for 22 years since I drifted away, including going to a few programs and a visit to an ashram when they still existed. Before then, I gave enough blissed-out satsang myself to know that more than that is needed to convince me now. Sincerity is not always enough if people are sincerely mistaken.

Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:28:15 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hey syd....
Pretty level headed..concept think for yourself..Hear that premies ...Maybe its time ya'all do the same thing for yourselves..nice talking to you syd hang arround for a while...peace david
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:59:43 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: david m
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
David,
hang arround for a while.
Thanks for the warm welcome. And it is a big relief to find somewhere that these events can be discussed with people who've also been there. And, for that matter, with some who are there still.
Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:48:48 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Brian,

Thanks for the info. Any recent news of Saphlanand or Milky Cole?

As I said in another message, your willingness to publish the official premie sites' web addresses shows that you have respect for diverse opinions and believe that access to all the info helps people make informed decisions. It adds respect and credibility to your efforts.

Thanks for doing this - I've already told a few people about it.

(In fact I thought maybe we could have a jumble sale to raise some cash and then hire a hall and print a few leaflets and... and... well, maybe not :-)

First time I've been able to talk about this stuff with people like my brother, for example, for many years. It was too wierd to understand and there was nothing new to say. Life feels better already.

Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:35:24 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: syd
Subject: S & M
Message:
Any recent news of Saphlanand or Milky Cole?

I don't know who these people are, and I believe this is the first reference to them to appear in the forum. And I'd remember a name like Milky :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 09:43:45 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Syd
Subject: Milky Cole
Message:
I was told that he died. Can anyone else confirm this.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:29:42 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: S & M
Message:
Saph was the first western so called mahatma.
He quitin the early seventies but I saw him at some programs
in the late seventies. He was into pot at that point.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 14:43:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: S & M
Message:
Hi Brian - Abject apologies for contradicting the Perfect WebMaster, but several UK exes have mentioned Milky Cole on this forum (I think a few have mentioned Saph as well). I had even heard of Milky when I was a lowly premie - he was pretty famous even in the US. Most of the stories on the forum were old ones though - can't recall anyone saying what had happened to Milky recently.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:37:35 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Brian
Subject: S & M
Message:
They were both 'living legends' when I joined up in '73. Saph was the first westerner to meet m in the late '60s and was made a mahatma and sent back to London to start spreading the word with the local hippies. (No disparagement intended - at that time there were very few people aware of any 'spiritual' concepts except the long-hairs and dope smokers. Probably the same in the US).

We thought of saph as the John the Baptist figure of the whole set-up, sent to prepare the way for one much greater etc etc.

There were legendary stories of him in the very early days before even charanand came over. He was said to be heavily into ganja as a sacrament and had an old van which was a sort of travelling shrine in which it was said that he often picked up hitch hikers, gave them the rap along with a few hefty chillums in the back of the van and then, if he believed that they were ready, showed them k.

This is all hearsay, BTW, not first-hand account on my part. Important to distinguish 'evidence' from entertaining gossip, in my view anyway.

Anyway, that's how he was seen. He helped set-up m's visit to the first (maybe it was the second) Glastonbury Fayre in '71 which was supposed to be prophecy fulfilled and accompanied by strange lights in the sky when m was on the stage.

It would be very interesting to know if he ever actually renounced m, privately if not publicly, or if he just drifted away as the set-up changed.

Milky was one of the earliest group of westerners, possibly pre-dating Charanand's arrival. I think he may have been one of the people who first set up serious fund raising in the UK, 'Divine Sales' and all that. He was shipped over to the US early on, certainly before '73 when I joined up. He was supposed to be one of m's greatest western devotees. Looking back now, I can begin to suspect why.

I never met him but from the impression I gained of him from those who knew him and liked/respected him, he was a powerful person with a lot of front, chutzpah. Bit of a spiv (used-car salesman type - apologies to any kosher 'previously-enjoyed vehicle' dealers on this site :-), good at money-making schemes and never shy of telling other people what to do.

Syd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:25:27 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: S & M
Message:
'Glastonbury Fayre in '71'.

And what a weird one that was, wanting the grateful dead to turn up, got this weird indian guru onstage instead. You've brought it all back Syd! Creepy.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:50:18 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: ham
Subject: Glasto '71
Message:
Did you ever see the film? It gets shown occasionally. I used to have a copy but taped over it a long time ago. I believe it was Nick Roeg's first film though he might have been the camera man not the director (later known for directing several very good films of course, including 'The Man Who fell to Earth' and that heart-rending film about the little girl who drowns, with Julie Christy and Donald Sutherland. And maybe 'The Hunger'?).

I used to have the triple album box set but it went a year or so later when I, you know, 'renounced possessions'. I recently met someone who has a copy, they're worth at least a hundred quid now in mint condition. So he probably doesn't even play the records. Ho hum.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:29:39 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Glasto '71
Message:
Didn't even know there was a film of it, would be dead interested in seeing it, assuming it's called Glastonbury '71? Especially if Nic Roeg was involved, an interesting character.

The funny thing about the album is that most of it is pretty crappy, remember thinking at the time I heard it that if I was 18 I'd be a Sex Pistols supporter, and I hated them then, but like you I was very premiesh! I too got rid of all my records, including Steve Miller, Country Joe, Jefferson Airplane & the Dead! Frightening really. Had one live Man tape with John Cipollina for about three years, thats all!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:58:25 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: ham
Subject: Glasto '71
Message:
I think the film is called 'Glastonbury Fayre'. It even has you-know-who in it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 13:08:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Welcome, Syd
Message:
Dear Syd - Welcome to the forum (and a happy New Year to you, too).

I felt almost the same way you did when I found this site a year and a half ago - I spent hours reading the site and old archives. I left M in 1977 [you can read my Journeys entry under 'Katie (Mischa)'], and was just flabbergasted at all that had happened since then.

You wrote:
No ashrams? You're right on this one: no ashrams since about 1983. The ashram premies were kicked out rather unceremoniously. This really bothered me when I heard about it, because I had some good friends who lived in the ashram. Also, some of the stories about what actually went on in some of the ashrams were quite upsetting.

No satsang and devotion? Satsang, no. Maharaji evidentally decided that premies weren't qualified to give satsang anymore. Thus the reliance on videotapes of his talks. I think there's still a lot of devotion (he still gives darshan at times), but it's much more subtle and undercover than it was when we were premies. Many of the premies who are still hanging in there from the seventies are VERY devoted.

No more constant meditation ordered? You're also right on this one, although morning and evening meditation is still required. The techniques have changed a bit (no more baragons for one thing), and Maharaji is the only one who gives knowledge and knowledge reviews now (except for a very few cases when he cannot be there.)

Just lots of fund-raising and events that they pay to get into? I know that there is still fund-raising, and that premies do pay to get into events (this amazed me when I heard about it) - I don't think there is a mandatory admission charge, though, just a 'suggested donation'.

It's really been interesting for me to talk to other ex-premies. As you said, it was a very intense period of my life, but when I left, all those connections got cut off short. Thus it was hard for me to remember a lot of what went on back then. I talked to very few people about my involvement after I left - how do you explain it to people? I've now been able to refer some good non-premie friends to my Journeys entry and have gotten a lot of positive responses.

I am not from the UK, but there are several other UK ex-premies who post on this site (I think someone recommended that you read AJW's journeys entry - I believe he mentions some of the places you mentioned in your post), so you might find someone that you knew back then. I've met a couple of people that I knew from the old days because they've shown up on the forum.

I really liked your web site by the way (the picture of the guy diving in to the garbage container - we call them 'dumpsters' here in the US - is great!). I am also a Grateful Dead fan, as you'll see if you read my Journeys entry.

Take care, and hope to hear more from you.
Katie
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:23:45 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Welcome, Syd
Message:
Katie,

As with other poeple that I've replied to, many thanks for the response and info.

when I left, all those connections got cut off short. Thus it was hard for me to remember a lot of what went on back then. I talked to very few people about my involvement after I left - how do you explain it to people?

This is also the predicament I find myself in. I am now beginning to try and piece together the memories and have just begun to be able to speak with others who were premies with me at the time. I phoned my brother last night and we spoke about this for the first time in over 20 years. I actually had something new to tell him - about this web site and some of the history.

He told me for the first time that in '89 he had tried to contact premies again during a shaky period in his life. Finding there were no ashrams he was directed to some sort of official centre near here (Brockley, SE London, UK) but that the premies there were strangely suspicious and unfriendly so he never went back. Very different from the old 'welcome back brother, come in and hear some satasang and sing some songs with us' that we used to give people who were checking back in in 73-74.

Thanks for the pointer to AJW - as you may have seen in another message, I used to know him very well, even from before we joined up, and hope to regain contact with him.

really liked your web site by the way (the picture of the guy diving in to the garbage container - we call them 'dumpsters' here in the US - is great!). I am also a Grateful Dead fan, as you'll see if you read my Journeys entry.

Thanks! We call them a 'skip' here. I used to renovate property and that photo was taken one morning by my brother outside the house we were working in at the time, in Herne Hill.

I saw your story in Journeys a couple of days ago. I belong to a few GD-related mailing lists and must confess that I used the paragraph about driving around listening to tapes so as to recover in a message to one of them yesterday. The message title was 'The healing power of music' and I just quoted your paragraph and gave the url of this site and a very brief message suggesting people try it if they recognised what the quote was about. I don't intend to repeat this ( I have my internet cred to maintain after all and off-topic messages is a sure way to lose it :-) but it's one place where there may be other survivors wondering what is going on.

Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 13:53:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Welcome, Syd
Message:
Hi Syd -
I'm honored that you used something out of my Journeys entry - that's what it's for. I didn't get into the Dead until after I left M (I had only heard their songs on the radio before), but their music was (and is) very grounding. I think Joy has spoken about this too. Songs like 'Friend of the Devil' were very comforting to someone who was worried about three tons of rotting vegetables inside their head...

My younger sister was a premie too, and we basically never talked about it (except to reminisce about people we'd known) until I found this site. We both had the belief that Maharaji was basically benign (although we weren't interested in following him) and that the premies were the ones that had made the trip so unbearable. I probably never would have thought differently until I found this site.

BTW, glad to know what a 'skip' is (I read a lot of British novels). Also, in case you haven't noticed, we do have a lot of off-topic posts on this forum, and it's OK - that's one of the ways that people get to know each other here. Brian and I have been trying not to archive off-topic posts because of limited disk space, but they're not discouraged.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:55:56 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Welcome, Syd
Message:
Thanks, Katie. Afterward sending the message to the GD list I thought maybe I'd abused the site or your trust by quoting without permission. Glad you don't feel like that.

I get a lot of support from Wharf Rat:

'spent half my life
doing time
for some other fucker's crime'

I see this as the prison some people are put in by other people's abuse of them, a psychological prison they are trapped in as a result of somebody else's crimes against that person.

Then Garcia sings 'I'll get up and fly away...' and the music moves up through the chords and just takes off

Phish can do this for me as well.

bye for now
Syd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:11:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Welcome, Syd (more GD)
Message:
Hi Syd -
I love the song 'Wharf Rat' too, and I liked your analysis of it. Had never really thought of it in that way, although something in me always related to it.

Got to get back on my feet someday
The good lord willing, if he says I may
I know that the life I'm living's no good
I'll get a new start, live the life I should...

Also, 'Unbroken Chain' really spoke to me when I was a new ex-premie (and still does):

Listening for the secret, searching for the sound,
But I could only hear the preacher, and the baying of his hounds....
Throw you down a line, boy, then drop you for a loss.
Ride you out on a cold cold railroad, and nail you to a cross.

And there are so many others (which I won't get into now, as it drives some of the other people on the forum crazy :).

BTW, I have never been able to get much out of listening to Phish, although I know several people who really like their music. I do like Rusted Root a lot - some of their stuff reminds me of Jefferson Airplane. There was also another band in the US called 'Uncle Tupelo' which a lot of Dead followers liked - some of their songs are very good (they broke up and turned into two bands: Wilco and Son Volt).

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:08:06 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@dold.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: OK, less GD then :-)
Message:
And there are so many others (which I won't get into now, as it drives some of the other people on the forum crazy :).

Yeah, well, I can accept that. Some aspects of the GD thing certainly became a cult for some people. I prefer Garcia's attitude of 'I don't know anything but I like playing with words so I'll give some answers your questions but it doesn't mean anything' compared to some other people's attitudes - one in particular, little chap from india, what was his name now... :-)

I saw phish once, last year in London. I only went because someone bought me a ticket it thanks for letting him stay for a few days. I always found their music boring before. But - a live concert is something else. I was bored for 20 minutes and then it took over and I was away - huge cathartic emotional release and a feeling like flying. One of those 'peak experiences' of my life which may never happen again with them or anywhere else.

Rusted Root are excellent - I have a couple of shows on tape and their first CD. Not heard them since the line-up changed a couple of years ago. I love that rhythmic pulsing sound.

Haven't heard of the other bands you mention (Son Volt sounds familiar, maybe I'm thinking of Son House the old delta blues guy). A lot of people seem to be into String Cheese Incident. They're from Telluride Co and probably play mostly in the south west, Texas etc. Certainly not yet been to UK. They have a live CD called 'A String Cheese Incident' which is worth hearing. Good fast happy dancing music, great for working or driving to.

Anyway, have a good '99 and Further Onwards...

'one of these days we know we got to get going, out of the door and into the streets alone'

(OK, no more GD quotes :-)

Syd
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:40:17 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: OK, more GD then :-)
Message:
Last time I saw the GD was '91, (re GD/cults), got chatting to some serious followers, they tried to convince me that the GD were the source of house music, needless to say they were all very threatened by it!

If you're into 'rhythmic pulsing sounds' are you into any house music?

I reckon you should still post gd quotes if they're important for you, even if it does wind people up, free speech etc Good to have some action as well!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:19:28 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: ham
Subject: OK, more GD then :-)
Message:
Well, I think most people turn into their parents eventually: 'call that music? It's got no tunes, you can't hear the words and its too loud ' :-)

I hear a lot of dance music that I like, and even went to a club once, in 1990. I channel hop past MTV a lot and occasionally stay. I don't go clubbing though, not any more, goes on past my bedtime.

It's amazing that a lot of influences that used to be 'underground' and avante-garde are now mainstream a generation later. A lot of it sounds like Hawkwind, for example, and then there is the whole minimalist repetition and changing patterns of rhythmic variation which is straight from people like Steve Reich or Phillip Glass.

They must have been really die-hard to claim the Dead as a source of house music. I believe it came from sampling electronic bands like Kraftwerk. GD are more of an influence on the spread of so-called World Music through Mickey Hart's recordings, researches and percussion playing. (Although there was once, and may still be, a usenet group called alt.rap-gdead or similar, tracing the alleged links and influences. Not surprisingly there was very little traffic on that one :-)

How about this one:
count your change and rattle your chains / and try to walk the line - my life on a bad day at work :-)

Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 12:14:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: GD Quotes are OK :)
Message:
Once in a while you get shown the light - in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Hi Syd -
I was kidding about the GD quotes - feel free to post anything that's meaningful to you. Joy, david m, and I have talked about the Dead before on here several times - and I'm glad to find someone else who likes the Dead as much as I do. The Dead really helped me get free of Maharaji and find some other meaning in life, so I find the topic very pertinent to the forum. However, musical tastes of the people on the forum differ considerably - some of the other people on here are NOT big Dead fans, so you may have to hear about that, that's all.

I have a good friend who is an ex-premie and got to travel with the Dead for a year or two before Jerry died because her partner was the Dead's sign language interpreter. (She also went on the first Furthur tour after Jerry died and said it was awful). She said that a lot of the DeadHeads reminded her of 1970's premie - the dress, the language, the innocence, etc., but she still enjoyed herself very much.

Was interested to hear about your experiences with Phish live - BTW. And thanks for the 'String Cheese Incident' recommendation. David m also recommends a band called 'Government Mule'.

Take care, and best wishes for a happy '99 to you too.
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 14:30:02 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hi Syd,

I looked at your photo but it didn't jog any brain cells into life. I was in Leicester from 73 to 79 and a practising premie at that time. Were you in the ashram at mere rd ? Who were you friends with, do you remember Campbell Mcqueen and the amazing grain shop or had you left leicester by then ?
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 04:43:56 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Bill Cooper
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Bill,

I looked at your photo but it didn't jog any brain cells into life

Well, I'm a bit pudgier now, especially in that photo :-) Thank you for looking though, I appreciate it. I will try and find a picture from that era - I used to have some from '75 at one time.

I lived in Leicester in pre-premie times from autumn '70 until May '72, mostly in Highfields. After encountering k in January '73 I was in Leicester again for a few months but not at all sure how long. It may have been only weeks. For example, I remember guru puja at Allie Pally that summer (when is GP held- june or july maybe?) and think that I was probably back in cornwall by then.

I remember the ashram opposite the park (Mere rd, I think - do you recall which number it was?) and the secretary with John Lennon specs. I stayed in a strict premie house on the other side of the city, perhaps in the narborough road area. There were three or four men there, possibly a woman too although this is hazy. They were all very keen and we used to go out jumble-collecting several nights a week and do lots of leafletting at the weekends. Usual stuff. Although there were a lot of premies, I think this was the only strict ashram-type premie house in the city.

In the city there was one premie with long black hair, quiet, medium height - he was of course regarded as not being truly devoted because he would not cut his hair to try and impress the general public with how 'normal' we were, not raging hippies. I also had a friend from Leicester who received k in early '73 but may not have lived in leicester at that time. His name is Ken Phillips, tall with red hair. I don't remember there being any premie businesses in Leicester at that time.

Is Leicester your home town? I always liked the place.

Syd
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Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 16:35:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Hi Syd,
Glad you found the site. When I first found it in October I was excited, upset, saddened, all of the above. I had trouble sleeping, cried a lot, and generally went through a lot of disequilibrium (even though I had left the trip 14 years ago). It is difficult to assimilate all the information on here--give yourself time to get all your questions answered. It's pretty upsetting and embarrassing re-living the memories, but it's also good to finally be able to talk with folks who understand that stage of your life. Take care,

Helen
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 05:20:19 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Helen
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
When I first found it in October I was excited, upset, saddened, all of the above. I had trouble sleeping, cried a lot, and generally went through a lot of disequilibrium (even though I had left the trip 14 years ago). It is difficult to assimilate all the information on here

This is pretty much what is happening to me now. I am realising that part of me had never stopped believing in m even though I drifted away from premies and K over 22 years ago.That was one of the biggest surprises and I'm still working my way through it.

At times I have felt heart-broken, almost bereaved, as I begin to fully recognise just what I took on board, without question, and the extent of the deception, and start to let go of it. No matter what talk of lilas and tests of faith etc, there just seem to be too many people over too long a period of time who have worked closely with m, got to know him, and left for the same reasons.

What I believe that I saw and loved in m was the Spirit and the joy that I felt and believed that he personified, that at the time I thought was emanating from him. Perhaps it was, despite him not because of him. is what I gave my heart to, not to the person that he seems to have become and perhaps always was.

A three year old kid waking people up and telling them to meditate? Now I think 'spoilt brat'. And having that behaviour more than validated by those around him? And I thought my childhood was wierd...

I'm beginning to feel a load lifting, stuff that I've repressed for a long time is lifting off. Yesterday I saw the daylight glow on the buildings, even here in this grey inner city area, and I felt so good to be alive, to have my family, my three wonderful children, not to have been an ashram premie all my life after all as I had once believed so deeply would be my desire. I am beginning to see that I had a lucky escape.

And maybe I'm starting to rediscover and remind my inner self that I am still on a path of discovery, which is how I always saw my life since a young child (I had a religious upbringing you see :-)

Thanks for your support
Syd
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 08:51:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: The process of discovery
Message:
I understand exactly what you are talking about. Even though I had left the trip, because I outgrew it in many ways, I still held the belief that GM was some kind of 'realized soul'. Brian & I exchanged a few ems when I first found the site and Brian said that many of us clung to a thread of hope that we still had GM as a kind of fall-back when our lives got rough. Reading the forum and assimilating all the info here kind of obliterates that illusion once and for all, doesn't it?

It's hard to face that we fell for a charleton, a greedy, unethical one at that (I think it goes beyond unethical--I think he's evil, but that's just my own personal belief).

I've had those same feelings of a big load lifting off of me, and of a sense of joy of just being alive and thankfulness that I have my feet on the ground. Those of us here are pretty damn lucky to have made it out of an insidious situation that was NOT healthy or good for us (I couldn't even admit that it was a cult until Brian gently outlined why he had no qualms at all about calling it one).

The forum has made me re-examine my beliefs in ways that I think are very good. We are so culture-bound and it seems that for better or worse, we've swallowed a lot of new-agey type of thinking in the late 20th century. I tease the big thinkers here on the forum, but I also really admire them for challenging that thinking. It's great to feel that life is a process of discovery, and that, even in middle age, we can have a reawakening of thought and spirit and feeling...
SOunds like your kids give you a lot of joy--

Take care,
Helen
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 06:16:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Dear syd,
Welcome. It is interesting to see how new people present themselves. I think you'll stay and get a lot from the discussions here. Some people think that if they weren't hurt then nothing else matters. I wasn't hurt but I was shocked to read all the information on the site. Brian and Katie do most of the work. I wanted to understand just what I'd been suckered into believing was spiritual was dysfunctional, business and greed. I am not denying I had an experience and still meditate, not enough, using the word, now refered to by a number!, and light, also now a number but we were lied to and others are still in and going in and this site also helps some of them. There is a real purpose here, to reveal the truth about BM as he is often referred to here, thanks to Gerry, to give time and support to process this info and to become part of ongoing discussions with an excellent group of people, on and off topic.
Enjoy.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:02:54 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Robyn,

Thanks for the welcome.

What does BM stand for (boy master?)

Bye for now
syd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:50:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: Introducing myself
Message:
Dear Syd,
BM: Big 'M', or my favorite; Bowel Movement. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:30:47 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: syd
Subject: Hi from me, too
Message:
Hello Syd,

I don't think our paths ever crossed, but I'd like to say it's good to see another UK contributor here. If you stick around, I think the British contingent has finally reached double figures.

I found this forum just over a year ago - and went through some similar re-evaluations of the weird years as you seem to be going through right now. I have found it hard to get away since - so be prepared for some astronomical phone bills, if you find being here as addictive as I do. Definitely the longer you stay, the more the sheer bloody absurdity of M's trip hits home, and the more grateful you feel for finally having got the hell out.

I still haven't spoken to anyone I knew from the UK premie days, but, like Robyn, have made some good friends among ex-premies from around the world - people I'm beginning to think of as among my best friends, even though we've never met.

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:06:14 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: nigel
Subject: Hi from me, too
Message:
Nigel,

Looking forward to getting to know you better - I'd noticed your uk email address while I was exploring. Had look at your web page too. Whereabouts do you live?

More later
Syd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 07:40:13 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: syd
Subject: Hey Sid, Remember Dunkirk.
Message:
Hiya Sid,

Whereya been these last 25 years.

Get in touch, I'll fill you in on what's happened to all our old mates.

Didja read my entry under Journies?

Great to hear from you.

AJW (Anth)
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:35:15 (EST)
From: syd
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Anth and Syd to meet again!
Message:
Yes, we've contacted. Special thanks to Gail for emailing me to alert me to Anth's message here in case I'd missed it.

It's 9.40 on New Years morning here in London, the rain has stopped and there's a strange big yellow thing in the sky. Not very british :-)

See you all later, glad to have found this place

And remember, Happy New Br.. Br.. Broom!
Sweep away those dusty old cobwebs :-)
Syd
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