Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 33 | |
From: Dec 19, 1998 |
To: Jan 2, 1999 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 21:40:42 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just looking for ? Message: found this site and others after an old college friend contacted me on another forum (work related) and I hadn't heard from her in 25 years so I started getting nostagilic and looking around and found various DLM sites and this site- I neve thouhght of myself as an ex -I wandered away in the early 80's then moved back to my home state and don't pracitce. Iwas in Denver ashrams from 73-77, was active in the 'construction' side and went to huston, orlando, and one other early. Don't have a lot of negative feelings -actually don't seem to care either way about gm. I would not be able to tolerate some of the 'premie' ot ex-premie attitudes that have been represented her e- antway Iwould just like like to find a few people I lost touch with and was wondering if there are any other sites other than EL I could look for former friends from denver. Saw one woman post on EL who I knew quie well and haven't decided wether to contact her or not (don't want a bunch of negative email or spam) anyway I've been lurking and enjoy some of this site Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 22:18:53 (EST)
From: S David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Ben Lurking Subject: Just looking for ? Message: I share some of your views. It was long ago and far away but I was glad of meeting (so called) ex-premies on the net because they were able to dispell the illusions about Maharaji for me which I had been carrying around in my head for 25 years. I am grateful for that. I am somewhat sickened that Maharaji is still up to his old tricks and also have been most surprised that there were some people who continued to follow Maharaji up to this day from when I left in 1983 and who still believe he is the Lord. Until I found the ex-premies on the net I had this background view that Maharaji was still the Lord and would start manifesting himself sometime around the end of this century. I was brought up sharp by revelations on the net about Maharaji and I realised I'd been keeping a mere fantasy in the back of my mind all those years. To answer your question, there is another site where you may be able to contact some old friends. You can go to the uncensored premie web site and have a look at the guestbook and messages to Maharaji and you may see someone you know. And you can post a message on the guestbook yourself, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 01:16:25 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: S David Subject: Just looking for ? Message: It seems to be a interesting site -I'll have check it out from work where I can trace the links and see what it is. thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 22:46:07 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Just looking for ? Message: Hey Ben L... This really is a great place to express your views for and against...The forum is made up of a tremendious group of people with all sort of views pro and con..keep hanging arround for a while, There's so much more to be learned about Guru Maharaj Ji...I dont think weve reached the tip of the iceberg...By the way did you know Jim McCutchen, He did alot of construction work at the office bldg..peace..david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 01:02:57 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: david m Subject: Just looking for ? Message: I worked on the office - I don't remember the name -my first 'ashram' was the 7th floor, also lived in various race street and the one way street that was acople blocks up ashrams -worked on a lot of the'projects' met a lot of neat people - worked in huston for awhile - after building that stage I went and sat way up high before the show and really thought something was going to happen cause there was no way it was coming down in time -but it did. -I remember after I had just revieved k and was going somewhere with a bunch of premies and pulled in to a macdonalds- talk about about raising hell - they came undone. That's a plesant thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 02:23:52 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Ben Lurking Subject: Just looking for ? Message: Dear Ben, Who are you looking to contact? I was in Denver from 73-77, and lived at 1560 Race Street for a couple of years, perhaps I'd know some of the people you are looking for. You can e-mail me if you don't want to name names on the Forum. Welcome to the site, by the way, there's ex's (and non-ex's) in all stages of non-involvement, so there's no qualifications as to who can come and hang out here, we welcome any and all comments you'd like to make, no matter how pro or con. (But if they're too pro Maharaji, be prepared to have them picked apart, sometimes not too gently.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 03:46:36 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Joy Subject: Just looking for ? Message: Thanks for the welcome - I sent you an email. we probally know or would recognize each other as I was in Denver for the same periord of time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 00:51:11 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Are we codependent? Message: WHAT IS CODEPENDENCY? 1. My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you. 2. My good feelings about who I am stem from receiving approval from you. 3. Your struggles affect MY serenity. MY mental attention focuses on solving YOUR problems or relieving YOUR pain. 4. My mental attention is focused on PLEASING YOU. 5. My mental attention is focused on PROTECTING YOU. 6. My mental attention is focused on manipulating you to 'to do it my way'. 7. My self-esteem is bolstered by solving YOUR problem. 8. My self-esteem is bolstered by relieving YOUR pain. 9. My own hobbies and interests are put aside. My time is spent sharing YOUR interests and hobbies. 10. YOUR clothing and personal appearance is dictated by my desires as I feel that YOU ARE A REFLECTION OF ME. 11. YOUR behavior is dictated by my desires as I feel that YOU ARE A REFLECTION OF ME. 12. I AM NOT AWARE OF HOW I FEEL. I am aware of how YOU feel. I am not aware of what I want. I ask what YOU want. IF I AM NOT AWARE I ASSUME. 13. The dreams that I have for MY future are linked to YOU. 14. My fear of rejection determines what I say or do. 15. My fear of YOUR anger determines what I say or do. 16. I use GIVING as a way of feeling safe in our relationship. 17. My social circle diminishes as I involve myself with YOU. 18. I put MY values aside in order to connect with YOU. 19. I value YOUR opinion and way of doing things MORE THAN MY OWN. 20. The quality of my life is in relation to the quality of yours. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 00:56:43 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Codependent characteristics? Message: CODEPENDENT CHARACTERISTICS Codependents May: *think and feel responsible for other people; for their thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny * feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem * feel compelled - almost forced - to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixed feelings *feel angry when their help isn't effective *anticipate other people's needs *wonder why other's don't do the same for them *try to please others instead of themselves *find themselves attracted to needy people and vice versa *blame others for the spot the codependents are in *say other people make the codependent feel the way they do *believe other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics Low Self-worth *come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families *deny they came from a troubled family *blame themselves for everything *think they are not quite good enough *feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing something fun for themselves *feel like victims *get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others *settle for being needed Depression *push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt *become afraid to let themselves be who they are *appear rigid and controlled Obsession *feel terribly anxious about problems and people *think and talk a lot about other people *worry *try to catch people in acts of misbehavior *abandon their own routine because they are upset about somebody or something *wonder why they never have any energy *wonder why they can't get things done Progressive *feel lethargic *feel depressed *experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure *abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities *become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill *experience an eating disorder *become addicted to alcohol and other drugs Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 01:01:45 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gail Subject: Are we co-dependent? Message: Not anymore... but thanks for the accurate description of my mother-in-law (snicker!) VP The holidays bring out the devil in me Never swam the Ganges ;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 01:06:41 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: VP Subject: I gotta love ya--you're such Message: a nut! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 10:20:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gail Subject: I gotta love ya--you're such Message: a sweetie! :) BTW, I'll never understand why those cult people would have kept a sweetie like you out of that program! That was NOT nice. I thought the door was always open...snicker! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 01:05:06 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Codependent characteristics? Message: Five Stages To Self-Compassion by Thom Rutledge, LCSW 1. Acknowledging THE COMMITTEE. First, we must admit that 'I am never just one person.' The myth of singularity must be exposed for the culprit that it is. We learn that by identifying and understanding the various 'personalities' within the one personality, we actually feel more together, more sane--even before problems are solved. Bottom line: We all talk to ourselves and we need to get better at it. 2. Asking WHO IS IN CHARGE? Once our multiple nature is clarified, the next logical step is determining who is in charge. (Take me to your leader). Most of us will discover a powerful little character that I call The Should Monster is at the helm, directing our lives with intimidating should's, ought's, and if only's. Here we can begin to see that the distribution of power within our committee is grossly our of whack. 3. Creating A DECISION MAKER. Now that we are a crowded conference room ruled by a relentless tyrant, our distress may make more sense--although we may feel worse. But where is the hero of our story? By heightening our awareness of who we are not (The Should Monster in particular) we begin to discover more of who we are, and subsequently what we need in order to emerge as in charge of our lives: A Decision Maker who can listen to the committee-within and make decisions based on the information available, rather than a policy of perpetual self-indictment. 4. Empowering THE DECISION MAKER. As difficult as it is to face our own destructive self-criticism, for most of us the greater challenge is in creating and empowering a new leader. We cannot 'just say no' without investing in an alternative. And like it or not, that alternative is to do whatever it takes to become powerful, self-caring adults, Decision Makers in charge of our own lives. (A frightening prospect for many of us.) 5. Establishing A DAILY PRACTICE. None of this will work until we can accept this simple truth: Perfection is not one of our choices. Practice makes ... practice. As long as we insist on striving for the impossible, we will remain the loyal subjects to our Should Monsters. Only through learning to accept, and even to value, our imperfection (otherwise known as being human), will wediscover the freedom to enjoy this constant learning experience called life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 01:34:47 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gail Subject: We were (and are?) Message: dear Gail - Thanks for so accurately defining co-dependency. I don't like the word because it's so easy for people to misconstrue (i.e. a lot of people think it means mutally dependent, which it does NOT). Yes, we were co-dependent with Maharaji. We may have also got into co-dependent relationships before, during, and after our relationship with him - I know that I did. I was raised by my parents to be co-dependent. I don't blame them, because they were raised the same way. I feel that I've freed myself from a lot of the co-dependent characteristics. This took both my own efforts, and the effort of others: therapists, friends, and the people who I tried to establish this kind of relationship with. I really thank my husband for not being the type of person that relates well to co-dependency! He has definitely wanted me to be myself (warts and all) and that has helped me so much. I guess all I wanted to say is that it is possible to free yourself from this kind of relationship. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 12:03:09 (EST)
From: RT Email: omm To: Katie Subject: We We We all the way OM. Message: I saw a co-dependent cartoon once. Did you like it? Oh. Anyway, 2 housewifes are having tea in the kitchen. The visiting woman says, 'Oh, it's so good to see you at last. How are you?' The other says, 'OH, my husband is very happy in his new job, and his health is excellent, so, thanks, I'm doing great!' +++ Thanks be to Gail for posting this very important post which is very important! There, I said it. Interdependance is the ideal, is it not? What is the goal? RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 12:34:23 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie/Gail Subject: We were (and are?) Message: Good point about mutual dependency, Katie. I think mutual dependency is something we shouldn't feel guilty sbout. Like you, I believe co-dependency is not the same as mutual dependency. I'm glad you found a man in Peter who wants you to be yourself. When I hear about men and women who make unreasonable demands on their spouses/girlfriends (ie,' if you don't lose 20 lbs. the engagement is off') it makes me wanna holler. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:28:39 (EST)
From: Carol Email: rbruce@teleport.com To: Everyone Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Hi all of you regular readers! For those of you that like Christmas: Merry Christmas! There have been times I've felt like skipping it, but with 4 kids and other family members it hasn't been more than a passing fancy. This was, however the first year in many that I didn't go to one church or another, and I'm not the least guilty or deprived from the change! I love the Christmas tree and making or getting special gifts for people I love. And I love it that we have turned the corner of winter on the solstice and the days will have more and more light! You'd understand if you've lived in the northern part of the US! We had snow on the the ground from Tuesday until late last night, and there was fresh snow on Dec. 24th! It was beautiful! I cannot remember ever having it on Christmas day, but we only missed it by one day. It's been windy and rainy all day today! I am still an ex. I just broke my addiction to reading and writing here and have been very busy! I check in and read the Forum about once a week for a little while, and although I'd love to get involved again, I just don't have time! I wish you all well! Carol (from the Portland OR area) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:37:59 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Thank you Carol! Your's was a welcome relief from the usual back and forth, as seen below. I recently met one ex, and we talked about you and wondered how you were doing and I especially admitted hoping I didn't hurt you. Good to hear from you and best wishes back. I know what you mean when you have kids it's kind of hard to 'cancel' Xmas. I tried but they still came by and it was fine: a fire, gift exchange. comments about ex-premie.org and why I am here. Very important, considering the 'children' are mid 20's' and my involvement here has helped them see another way. Especially after meeting an ex in person, I am so glad you posted. I have been wondering about how things were going with you. For me, Serzone has made a dramatic change. Hope you found something. Love Selene Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 02:09:47 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selene Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: I wrote a reply and it didn't work, so I'm doing it again! No, I don't find hospice work depressing. And I too found an anti-depressant that works well for me and helps my fibromyalgia, too. It's Effexor xr and I take 225mg. Happy New Year soon! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 02:13:35 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Selene Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: OOPS, I answered VP's question about hospice! You never hurt me! I'm sorry you went so long thinking you may have! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 16:24:23 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Thanks Carol. I appreciate you letting me knwo that. RE: hospice work, I didn't find it depressing either. I did it for a while quite some years ago. I found it more depressing to work with people on life support who were trying to stay longer than the body wanted to. That bothered me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 00:18:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Hi, Carol. Merry Christmas. I was thinking, I hope your Hospice work was not too depressing this time of year. How are the llamas? There is an llama farm right down the road from our house and I always think of you when I see them. My son asks me what a llama is...so, what IS a llama ;)??? I'd love to give the boy a real answer. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 02:22:20 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: VP Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: About the llamas... they are fine and I'm learning to spin wool from a friend! I will blend some of their fiber into sheep wool. Llamas are in the camelid family, related to camels, but more closely to vicunas, guanacos, and alpacas. They will spit if fighting with eachother or if very irritated by humans! I've been caught in my two boys crossfire and it's really gross! It smells like rotten compost! They have soft foot pads which have double hoof/nails that need trimming like fingernails a few times a year. (The vet does it when he comes to vaccinate them, although I did when they were knocked out for gelding last summer.) They are very quiet animals most of the time. If distressed, like if they get separated from eachother or scared by something, they make a moaning sound. They also make bizarre sounds when mating or fighting! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 00:25:30 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Hi Carol - It's so good to hear from you! I am glad you are still hanging in there. We miss you, but I understand that you are really busy, and it does sound like things are going well for you - I hope so, anyway. I agree with you about the solstice - that's one of the main things that I am celebrating at this time of year. So nice to see the days get LONGER again. Lots of love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 07:23:07 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Dear Carol, I hope you see this post. I wonder about you now and then but since no one is paying me 40 hours a week to play on the internet I don't have much time for it either. I'm glad you had snow and glad that I didn't!!! Have to drive north 3 hours to the airport on Xmas Eve and again in the early morning on 12/28 so I have everyone WILLING the snow to stay away and the first chance of snow is 12/28 in the evening! :) Here in Northern Central PA it usually is snowing big time around this time of year. There was a storm 12/23 but it was to the south and stopped right at the bottom edge of PA! Anyway have a Happy New Year Carol. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 09:30:56 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Carol Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: Hi Carol! Hope you had a good Christmas, and glad to see you're still peeking in occaisionally. I'm planning to come see you after I move out to the coast, since I've never tasted llama before. It works sorta like with lobsters, right? I get to pick the one I want, and then you drop it into the pot for me? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 18:22:53 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Brian Subject: A big Hello and Best wishes... Message: You said, 'I'm planning to come see you after I move out to the coast...' When will that be approximately? Looking forward to it, but llama will not be on the menu! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 15:22:24 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Brian and Katie Subject: Holiday Thanks Message: Thanks for all your hard work keeping this thing going. Hope you're having a nice holiday. Wishing everybody the same and Happy New Year. Especially those planning to enjoy their year without M for the first time! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 16:05:30 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Holiday Thanks Message: Yup I am one of those. and thank you Runamok. You have raised some very interesting issues and posts. It's always good to have someone at least as intense as me around. takes the edge off. Enjoy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:26:33 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Selene Subject: Holiday Thanks Message: Congratulations! You lost almost 200 pounds! PS I don't think you intense Selene. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 16:20:34 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Holiday Thanks Message: You bet!!! I really am looking forward to my first year without M and I thank you for your special best wishes. To everyone who participates in this forum, to the people who make it happen--THANK YOU--and best wishes for a wonderful 1999! And ps to RUNAMOK...man I really love your name! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 11:48:43 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Everyone Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: On this beautiful Christmas morning, with the sun shining out of an azure blue sky, a light dusting of snow on the ground, the temperature cold but not biting, I sit here and write to you, my new pixel-pals. My elder son, the 14 year old is still asleep, my 10 year old is out snow boarding with his friends down a nearby hill, my wife is out walking our neighbor's dogs - a Chesapeake Bay retriever and and Somoyed - our neighbors are British and are preparing their annual Christmas dinner for friends and family, including us. What a spread they make! When I awoke this morning I had the desire to give you all something of value, for you have given me something of value - the rememberance of the fact that there are two sides to every story. So as I entitled this post, 'a story, a question, a wish' here goes. I heard this story about ten years ago, and it shifted my internal paradigms a bit in a most pleasant way. This story is unrelated to Maharaji or anything I ever heard him say. I just wanted to say that so there wouldn't be any M-specific allergic reactions to the gift I am trying to give here: THE STORY: Once there were two friends. One was constantly having serious problems in his life to the point of desparation, while the other was having a pretty good time. One day, the fortunate friend asked his buddy, 'Do you ever pray?' The hapless friend replied, 'Sure, I pray all the time!' 'Well, what do you pray for?' 'I pray for strength...you know, 'God give me strength'!' 'That's a big mistake, my friend. Big cliche, big mistake.' 'What the hell are you talking about?' 'OK, when you want strength, you know, big muscles, physical strength, what do you do to get it?' 'I go to the gym.' 'What do you do at the gym?' 'I work out.' 'What does your workout consist of?' ' I lift heavy weights, hold them awhile and put them down, then I do it over and over again, increasing the weight as I go.' 'So if that is what you do to increase your physical strength, what do you think God gives to people who ask for strength?' 'OK, so what should I pray for if not strength?' 'Grace, my friend, grace...the unmerited, unearned favor a gift of God, for that is our only hope for a happy life.' THE QUESTION: What do you all think has perpetuated the birthday celebration of a man who lived and died 2000 years ago? What do you think he actually DID that would cause millions of people to remember him and provoke people to give other people gifts to commemerate his life? I used to be a 'headhunter' or employment agent, and I had to break down what a person knew how to do down to great detail - what machines they could operate, what skills they had, years of experience, management/teaching/training skills and all the rest. So besides being the 'Messiah' in name, what does that mean to you in nut-and-bolts terminology? This is not an adverstisment for Maharaji, this is dialog from me to you. I am not trying to prove or disprove anything here, I would just like to hear your honest responses. In my case, when I received Knowledge, something intuitve kicked in and informed me that this was the common denominator of all the 'Masters' - it all seemed to make sense now. This Knowledge of God - the primordial vbration, the Word, is what all the progenitors of all the world religions actuallly came to bring - not another religious system. This series of experiences and thoughts and feelings seemed to fit together like nothing else had. I look forward to hearing everything from scriptual references from Fr. Mick to satirical asides from Cnslr. Jim and much inbetween, that is if you even take the time and energy to respond, which I would appreciate. THE WISH |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 15:16:44 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: Your Pulpit Message: My honest response? You could try the gym. It might do you some good. Some things have to do with appropriateness. Is there something about the a belief in God or Christianisty that predisposes its adherents to a constant need to proselytise? Or is it something about being an ex-premie that leaves a vacuum which must be filled by rhetoric and dogma? Are you an ex-premie? Have you left M or have you left him room to move on this forum? You never really answered my inquiries about this as I recall. And honestly about JC? How about respect for some 2000 year old dude to give him somewhere to rest instead of reinventing him at his memory's expense? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 16:16:00 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: Your Pulpit Message: Having been raised in an avid Boston Irish Catholic regime I feel the right to comment on JC. We dont' have a clue what he did or didn't do. The written word was controlled by the upper upper eschelons and priests. who the hell knows? I think that even if he did do some good, it was purely humanitarian, and perhaps political. The rememberence has deteriorated into blatant consumerism. Of course it is constantly perpetuated over the years! It's economically viable to do so. come on. What does shp stand for anyway struggling hanger-on premeie? Hey whatever. It's the spirit of the day. I think of it as a solstice celebration so in that 'light' I wish you well. Enjoy your children they are the best gift you have been given, better than a guru. Love, ( how about that Robyn?) Selene Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 16:47:44 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Selene Subject: Your 'selene highness' Message: You said: The written word was controlled by the upper upper eschelons and priests. who the hell knows? Nobody for sure. You said: What does shp stand for anyway struggling hanger-on premeie? One thing I stand for is not commiting verbal violence as illustrated in the above quote, especially to impress the local peer group. Get that straight and maybe we can communicate, if either of us would care to bother. You said: Enjoy your children they are the best gift you have been given, better than a guru. I can appreciate that. I have kids. But what about all the readers who don't have kids? How can you be so insensitive to both the premies and ex-premies who read this? Just as in all other aspects of this life, there will be people who agree and disgree with me at work, at home, with premies, with ex-premies. This is no big deal, not seeing eye-to-eye. There will probably be readers of this post who see if different than you do who are exers. Vive la difference! (how about that, Robyn?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:09:58 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: shp Subject: rushing to rescue of selene Message: although her highness Selene needs no one to speak for her, I'm rushing in anyway First, before I launch into this I would like apologize to any Christians reading this on Christmas day. I think that it is pretty well known (stating fact without citation) that the scriptures have been repeatedly re-written through out the ages for reasons of expediency with the intended purpose of world domination. Ok, maybe I'm being extreme here. Isn't there some new American Readers Digest, big print type version of the Bible out there now. Speaking of World Domination, it will only be a matter of time when there is the Microsoft Bible. Now, I'm not sure if Maharaji or some Mahatma or just some zealous premie made this statement about the Bible. But, it went something to the effect that the Bible, which I guess the New Testament consists of letters that the apostles wrote, was basically reading other people's mail that was relevant at the time, but maybe not so relevant now. Oh, Selene your post has torn open my wound with that stuff about having kids. For I am childless myself. Fertility drugs did me no good. And for some reason the adoption agencies feel that with me living in a halfway house that I wouldn't be a good parent. Now, I'm off to the streets to find someone to make babies with on this sad and empty Christmas day. (yeah, how about that, Robyn?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:47:01 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: barney Subject: rushing to rescue of selene Message: You nut you Barney! Struggling Hanging-on Premie didn't bother me. But thanks for the good vibes nonetheless. I know for a fact I wasn't abusive in that post. Simply because that wasn't the intent. and I know how to do it. Hell i even ended it nicely and I know that you childless ones are probably thanking the universe or whatever that you don't have to deal with that on this supposed sacred day. No body needs to procreate, the species is overburdened and we all know it. and I know you know I know, even though I did pop out two of them. And I love them and am happy about it. So what? I thought I was being on my best behavior but once again I am confirmed, even on the holiest of holies - Selene! don't talk to them selene... they suck I'm goin home..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 18:07:48 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Selene Subject: rushing to rescue of selene Message: I agree. I really did not detect a whole lot of hostility on your part at all. At worst was your Struggling Hanging-on Premie which might have been too close to home. I think shp overreacted. He was probably expecting more agreement than he got since he went to much effort to make it all so palatable. However, I believe that shp's secret intent was a bit transparent - another plug for Maharaji. We bad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 18:23:30 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: barney Subject: rushing to rescue of selene Message: yup we bad and I love it - and all my ex's in Texas and everywhere else. Ireally do have to get off the computer and be social now, I suppose, tho I thoroughly appreciate the distraction. Love ya Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:53:08 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Selene Subject: what shp really stands for Message: Dear Selene, I just re-read your question of this morning: 'What does shp stand for anyway struggling hanger-on premie?' And I realized that you were asking me what 'shp' stands for! I didn't get the connection between what you called me and my initials until just now, swear to God...maybe those two glasses of Cherry Heering (a very nice after dinner cherry liquor from Denmark)helped me to understand your question better. Hell, I thought you were just calling me names! Anyway, to answer your question, shp stands for Sanford Harlan Pass, not Shri Hans Productions or struggling hanging on premie! That is my name, Selene. I have nothing to hide. I have e-mailed Gerry and Jerry and they know my name now, I have e-mailed with op and she knows my name, so I am out of the closet for all! Just like the old 'Cheers' tv show, isn't it nice to go somehwere where everybody knows your name... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:16:30 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: shp Subject: what shp really stands for Message: How nice to know your real name. What would you like to be called - is shp sufficient? I always feel funny not having a real name to hang on a person (even if it's a pseudonym). If you do prefer shp, that's fine, but otherwise, let me know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:26:30 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: what shp really stands for Message: My friends call me Sandy or San. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:07:15 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: shp Subject: what shp really stands for Message: I was just going to suggest that it stood for Serving His Premies. Guess I was wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:51:34 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: barney Subject: what shp really stands for Message: hey barn, it would be more accurate of my nature to say that shp stands for: Seeks Higher Power Says His Peace Seeks Holy Place Serves High Principles Sometimes Heavy Preaching (Sorry, Have Pity) Acutally, my name Sanford means Peaceful Crossing. It represents the passage across the sandy fiords by the Vikings who had to carry their vessels above their heads, and if the terrain was sandy, the crossing was easy, especially on the feet...as opposed to a rocky fiord (hence the name Rockford). So I hope to live up to the meaning of my given name with regard to my inner journey and my communication with others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:48:14 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: what shp really stands for Message: I could have done worse .. uh those initials leave a lot open I *was* being nice. oh well. glad to hear your real handle. I am really selene. really,almost. Just waiting on a legality that is complicated. Enjoy and take care and thanks for the discourse. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:53:38 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Selene Subject: what shp really stands for Message: I like closure with a nice vibe on it. Thanks you for getting back to me. Good night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 16:22:36 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: your name fits you Message: You said: Is there something about the a belief in God or Christianisty that predisposes its adherents to a constant need to proselytise? Not that I know of, however the subject does lend itself well to sharing. As I recall, Jesus did tell his disciples to pass it on. I have offended you without knowing it Runamok, sorry. I am not a member of any church, denomnational or otherwise. I have practiced Knowledge for 20 years and have thought highly of the experience and the teacher. Happening across this website has changed my experience to one of questioning both. My posts are not what you make them out to be. You see muy motives through a very negative filter based on your feedback. Too bad. We'll both get over it. You said: Or is it something about being an ex-premie that leaves vacuum which must be filled by rhetoric and dogma? I am not an ex-premie, so I can't answer that. But there are some bona fide ex-premies around you can ask. You said: Are you an ex-premie? Have you left M or have you left him room to move on this forum? No. I have not 'left' M. As far as leaving him room on this forum, I speak for myself here. And finally, you said: And honestly about JC? How about respect for some 2000 year old dude to give him somewhere to rest instead of reinventing him at his memory's expense? Yes, honestly about JC. Yes, how about respect for the 2000 year old dude. The place he wants to rest is inside of us as a guiding spirit. That is not a re-invention. I just told a story, asked a question, and expressed a wish. Can you be a little more specific about what your gripe is, or else go have some beverage of your choice and chill out? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 16:50:34 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: shp Subject: shp, shp, shp... Message: shp, Babe, we luv even though we don't understand ya at all. Your tenacity is stupendous. Your ability to keep coming back with always a different angle is amazing. Didn't you say that you were Jewish? Why the fixation on Christ? Please don't take offense, but it confuses me. I heard yesterday that Yassar Arafat attended Mass. Sure, it was nice to do, but it's gotta be for show. What's the point if there is no real sincerity? Like Selene posted above the whole Christmas thing is just a mass frenzy of consumerism. And, now it's moving into Political Correctness and showmanship (if it wasn't there already.) While there are many Ex-Premies that have resumed their commitment to Christ since leaving BM, I have not. One of the things that I believe that I got out of being in the cult was the ability to discard the Western Judeo-Christian thing about Christ. Oh, Gawd, why am I saying this on Christmas day? I'm going to hell for sure. Ok, my soul is still haunted by the Hellfire and Brimstone bit. I had a friend who became Born Again hardcore and he was trying to shake me out of my guru tree. One of the things he claimed was that the guru thing was about the belief in spirits. Well, because I didn't want to start World War III with the guy I refrained from suggesting that believing in somebody who was dead for 2000 years was believing in spirits. shp, I'm glad that you're hanging around, but I get worried about you sometimes. I doubt that you'll ever convert any of us back to the flock, but it may work the other way and extract you from Maharaji. Are you sure that you want that to happen? If not, then don't play with fire, don't make room for doubt. Take care Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:08:02 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: barney Subject: barney, bubbulah Message: Didn't you say that you were Jewish? Why the fixation on Christ? >Yes, born Jewish. And for Christ's sake, what fixation? ...but it may work the other way and extract you from Maharaji. Are you sure that you want that to happen? >If what all is being said herein is the God's honest truth, yes. And quite honestly, I am here mainly for me....not you or Maharaji. I really want to know what the hell is going on regarding someone and somehting that has been the centerpeice of my life for twenty years. This is for real, barn. I am for real. That is why I can let all the shit thrown at me here fly by, because there is something deeper than the emotion going on that I want to know more about. Why? So I can guide myself and my offspring in the direction that evolution, the Holy Spirit, natural selection, survival and all things bright and beautiful are headed, my friend. Isn't that what all of us are doing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:37:01 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: shp Subject: barney, bubbulah Message: well, I don't know what a 'bubbulah' is, so I don't know how badly I'm being insulted or praised. On the Christian-Christmas-Jewish thing: Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to incite you. It was interesting how just a week or two ago the Cuban government declared that Christmas was ok, but urged caution to avoid the Western Consumer Materialistic thing which has the effect of destroying the local cultural Christmas. Or something like that. Or was it some strange stuff I heard on the radio about Christians in Bhagdad and their Christmas. Maybe both. Call me the Grinch, but I really hate Christmas. Basically, I stop going into department stores starting before Halloween. I stop going to grocery stores just before Thanksgiving and get all my food at 7-11's - beer and potato chips and those little sausage sticks. By New Years Eve I'm a complete mess and certifiably insane and usually end up in jail for a week on some trumped up charges. After Superbowl Sunday, somewhere around the beginning of February I'm coming out of it, but then it's Valentine's Day and I'm eating too much candy. Then there's St. Patrick's Day and Mardi Gras and Fat Tuesday. Sometime later is Easter and all those gooey yellow chicky things. Then April Fools Day, followed by May Day, Cinco De Mayo, Mother's Day, Memorial Day, Father's Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, Armistice Day, and somewhere in there is Ground Hog's day. Have I missed any? No, how many did I miss. Man, it's all just hype from the Ad Man to get everybody out there to inflame the economy. shp, you've often spoken of the Ancients. Well, I think that they did have one thing right and that was four freaking holidays - Solstice, Equinox, Solstice, and Equinox. Kill a few chickens, dance and sing to de funky beat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 19:35:21 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: barney Subject: barney, bubbulah Message: Hi Barney - Just in case you're worried, bubbalah is a term of endearment. I feel the same way about Xmas that you do. Maybe it's different when you have children. Where I live, they put out the Xmas decorations right after Halloween and the spending frenzy begins. I HATE seeing all these people in the stores spending money they don't have on crap that the people that they are giving it to don't want. I'm always glad to see the solstice roll around, because the days finally start getting longer, but I could definitely do without Christmas. And New Year's Eve - don't get me started! It's not the real beginining of the year in any way except arbitrarily, and everyone I know agrees that it's the most over-rated holiday of the year. I second your idea about going back to the big four holidays (actually, there are eight pagan holidays - one smaller celebration in between each solstice-equinox pair). I might really celebrate something like that. I do have to say that it's been great getting and receiving all these holiday greetings from everyone on the forum. As I told Seymour, and a few other people, that is the thing I really like about Christmas. Thank you, everyone. Your friendly Grinch, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:30:28 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: barney Subject: barney, shweetheart! Message: that's what bubbalah means, and thanks to katie for covering me while i was out feasting.....again. i hate the materialism of christmas as much as you do. there is no tree in my house, just a few lights to brighten it up a bit for the kids, got 'em a few gifts (when in rome...), no midnight mass or the like, just an appreciation for someone who lived only to help human beings experience and understand love better and how to live it in a world with other people. i like the equinoxes and solstices too. i have a huge conch shell (about 1000 yrs old) that is sawed off on one end and can be used as a horn, which i do at such times with other primitive family friends on occasion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:18:07 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: shp Subject: Dear Sandy--MJ is not all bad Message: I think MJ did fulfill one of his promises to me. He promised to take me beyond heaven and hell, beyond all religion, and eventually even beyond himself (give up the master). Well, it has happened for me. It feels great. Now I can get to work on what is really wrong with me instead of covering it up and living with lies. If it had not been for MJ and my long-term enrollment in his cult, I probably would have suppressed my inadequacies through some other religion. I went to a Catholic school. Ever since I can remember, I have wanted God to come and save me. The things that drove me to the cult are still there. I'm 44 going on 21 now. I have serious problems with belongingness and self-esteem. I intend to change. I'm my own best friend. I have to save myself. Consider what is being said. Why would any of us lie? At some point we believed as much as you do. We loved him and premies as much as you do. As you know, some people who post here were very close to MJ. Why did they get disgusted and leave? Haven't you noticed that your old premie friends become more selfish with each passing year. K does not bring about those wild quiverings within. Devotion to MJ does. When you stop devoting, you realize that K is not so beautiful. You begin to realize that you need to meet a stranger--yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:25:27 (EST)
From: Sandy Email: None To: Gail Subject: I notice alot Message: Hi Gail, Thanks for the open post. I was looking for God long before I met up with Maharaji, and if it turns out that I have to continue my search elsewhere, so be it. I'm comfortable with myself enough to change and grow without beating myself up too much in the process. My wife was raised Catholic, so I understand that whole thing you mentioned about yourself. Love your candid and friendly approach while still sticking to your story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:35:08 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: Jezus, I need a drink Message: Hey shp, How are ya? You been gettin' lickered up with that Danish liquor again, buddy? (; Ever since my hubby stopped drinkin' 4 years ago there's no booze in the house. I'm proud of me hubby, but on a night like tonight I'd love a little Irish cream (I can't even remember what the stuff is called). That smooth chocolatey stuff people have around on the holidays. I think what Runamok meant is that many Christians can be real obnoxious about proseltyzing, thus making it seem like their predisposed to be so. It goes beyond 'sharing'--'sharing' means respecting and listening to the other guy without an agenda. So often 'born-again' types have an AGENDA, to preach the word of God, to convert, and that ain't sharing. And a lot of premies do this too. I've experienced it myself. Their kind of 'sharing' ain't an I-Thou thing at all--it's an I-I-I (ay, ay, ay) kind of sharing and that's a big turn-off. A lot of folks don't believe that 'Christ wants to rest inside of us as a guiding spirit'. Today may be celebrated by Christians as Christ's birthday, but a lot of folks don't embrace the theology, so they have made their own traditions and meaning out of the holiday. I still don't beleive in the divinity of Christ but I do believe he was a great man, and I like his teachings. He inspires me. Sometimes I wish I could believe the theology--it's a nice story--that God came in human form to show us how much He loved us--but at best, I see Christ as an inspiring human being whose social justice teachings speak to me. If I try to believe something I don't, then I am not being authentic. I can never do that 'pretend belief' thing again like I did with Maharaji. Sure, I experienced some real stuff with GM but a lot of it was group pressure. There's a lot of diversity here on the forum--and most of us are comfortable with the fact that we don't all have to be ONE. That is one of the fallicies of the guru trip, and sets up a kind of wishful, immature longing (IMHO)--this idea that we're all going to be ONE. We're not. But that doesn't mean we can't all treat one another with respect. Have a good one, shp. I played catch with a very driven Labrador named Jake (at my brother's house today) for hours. That's all he wants to do is play ball. He's real talented at it too. A real athlete, that Jake. I want me own doggie soon. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:10:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Sugar...Honey, Honey Message: Let there be clarity like there has never been clarity before in all of our lives. Let all illusion be revealed and made obvious for what it is, and let the reality of our original purpose for being be shown to each of us in our own individual lives. shp, I'm stoked. I just got the new Dawkins' book, Unweaving the Rainbow for Christmas. And then yesterday, when I wasn't watching all those old rockers (for hourr and hours, I couldn't believe it!) I got into this book by an astronomer called The Heart of the Web which is extremely interesting. About the origin of the universe, our life forms and everything. I learned a lot in three hours with that author (sorry, it's upstairs) than I have since who-knows-when. You want answers, shp? Why not look for them. All religion's going to do is gild the lily of mystery. That's NOT the same as really TRYING to find out. Can you see the difference? You want clarity? You're going to have to use your own mind and do so assiguous thinking. CRITICAL thinking. Know what I mean? You want illusions to clear up? It's not going to happen by prayer shp if the object of your prayer is itself illusion. Have you ever thought of that? You talk about 'ruts'. Can you imagine how much of a rut religious faith seems to me when it's bolstered by a n-read, no-learn policy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:11:57 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: read it and smile... Message: Jim, I will be reading more now than I have been in the last 20 years. I haven't read much since receiving Knowledge, but did alot when I was in my 'seeking' mode before K. Now I am at a crossroads and I know it better than you or anyone else on this site. Your encouragement to read is well-received and appreciated. But I still know that prayer/meditation/blessing is a scientific principle that is not pie-in-the-sky nor is it necessarily connected to any religion , and am not going to abandon that avenue of information as I read more. I can pray and not be religious...it's not like an ATM card, that I have to have a religion pin number to get in and get the goodies in my account. Enjoy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:39:47 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: here's a good book Message: Since you are a lawyer, you may have a special interest in this one. It was being boosted on a tv show this morning. Gerry Spence, the famous lawyer - tall grey-haired, grandfatherly looking, wears black turtlenecks, jeans and a fringed buckskin jacket - wrote one that just came out called Give Me Liberty. In it he talks about the modern slave/slavemaster relationship, pin-striped prostitutes, and his general slant on things, which seem to be leaning in a direction of freeing people from existing social concepts and constrictions, mostly financial/corporate related. Thought you might like to hear about it since you like to read. I am going to check it out. Once again, let me thank you for encouraging me to read and look around. If we were naked rainforest dwellers sitting in trees grinning at each other sucking juice from the vine of the soul and tripping out on dmt, we wouldn't need books, as I have mentioned in previous posts. But here we are in this layer-upon-layer of pseudo-civilization and conformity, and reading does help to unwind it some. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:34:00 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: shp Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Such hostile responses you got! I liked your story. There have been many times in my life that I've experienced 'grace' - at least that's the word that I've used to describe what occurred. The main problem I see people having with the phenomenon is that of attributing it to coming 'from' someone or someplace outside of their own being. They then get to argue over what that source actually is - Jesus, Santa, etc. In your story prayers are 'answered' by an external source that doesn't have the intelligence to understand intent any more than a vending machine. But both prayer and grace require a participant. My own suspicion is that the prayER and gracEE are far more directly involved in the process than they are aware of being. As for the question, you said: something intuitive kicked in and informed me that this was the common denominator of all the 'Masters' And the students, don't forget them. That anyone sits at the feet of another person who dangles awareness of what they were shown at a price of devotion to the dangler is very obscene in my book. For me the intuitive recognition was that this was the common denominator of ALL personal experience in life. Maharaji is a fraud not because there is no light, but because it isn't his alone to divvy out that awareness - except that he requires a promise from people to not tell what they've learned and they stupidly acquiesce to the conditional 'gift'. Premies now don't even tell what they've EXPERIENCED, but steer people to television screens so that they can hear it from the horse's ass. His brother the fraud gives out the same experience, and claims the same exclusive right in the process. BBJ just doesn't know how to make as much money off of it as his little brother the fraud does. Truly competent teachers produce teachers - not lifelong students. As for the wish... You can't wish for others what they don't wish for themselves. Happy holidays, shp. Enjoy your friends and family. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 17:50:52 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Brian Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: I was not hostile. Just because he or she want s to make it look that way well so what? I was not hostile Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 19:23:43 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp, Barney, Brian,Selene Subject: Y'all are making me homesick.. Message: ...this thread reminds me of Christmas with my family. (Some of you may remember that I made a similar post last year. I honestly didn't think I was going to get to do it this year because everyone was being so darn nice to each other). shp, your post was long, and I found it a little hard to sort out. The story was OK, the question is hard to answer, and the wish was nice (but as Brian says, you can't wish for people what they don't wish for themselves). Anyway, I wish the same to you, and I hope you wish that for yourself also. Regarding Jesus - well, for one thing, I am not a Christian, and I do not believe that Jesus was the son of god, although I respect his teachings. It's really hard for me to say WHY Jesus is still worshipped after all these years. Some of it is because of luck - he was in the right place at the right time, and had the right followers to publicize him. I think that what Jesus SHOULD be (but is not always) remembered for is taking a lot of rules and simplifying them into two basic commandments: Love God, and love one another. He also promoted the radical concept that God was a loving god - unfortunately, many of his followers have lost sight of this. P.S. BTW, I really don't think Selene was being hostile. I can relate very much to having to say 'I wasn't being hostile' (or negative, or angry, or bitchy). It's one of the reasons I don't go home for Xmas anymore... It's a no-win situation IMHO, and I hope Selene doesn't feel bad about it. BTW, I don't have children, as Selene knows, and the remark that she made to you about your children was OK with me - I felt that it was addressed to you. I feel the same way about my family and friends and even my cats and that's fine with me. Take care, all - hope everyone had the kind of holiday that they wanted - I did... Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 20:12:53 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: Y'all are making me homesick.. Message: Thanks Katie Thank the whatever for this computer room Escaping again I am. And you are right. I know you weren't offended by my children comment. geez - who the hell would be? If you got em you have to treat it like a gift and love em. If you don't got em, well good for you! You made the right decision and if you ever show up in my hood on babysitting nite I'll give you a turn with my grandson in a heartbeat. Love him to death, but at 6 months he will make you feel even better! shp is just trying the usual, trying to make an innocent remark into a campaign for the big/little M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:02:51 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Selene & all involved Subject: communication skills help Message: Good Evening Selene and whoever, You said: shp is just trying the usual, trying to make an innocent remark into a campaign for the big/little M. Not so. You don't have a clue why I say what I say, but your catch-all boogey man fills the bill and hangs me high, eh? My remark about the children being the best gifts etc. was tongue in cheek. My feelings about being verbally assaulted with the 'struggling hanging on premie' thing were genuine, just as your comment was meant to dig, it did its job well. Yes, as a matter of fact I am struggling and hanging on, not to Maharaji, but to my own center, my own sanity, while I am going through these changes brought on in large part by my paticipation in this website. You don't know me, none of you do. Some of you have been cordial and informative and some of you have been beyond confrontational - that's fine. I can deal with it all. My reason for being here is my own - don't you get it? Why do you insist on being so paranoid about me repping Maharaji and not being just here for myself? IMHO, some of you need to hone your communication skills (Maharaji or no Maharaji) if your object is to get your point across. If all you want to do is slash and burn premies that wander in here, then you are no better than who and what you are criticizing. Just because I may mention Jesus doens't mean that I am your concept of a Christian, or am interested in religion for that matter. Anyway, Katie, I'm glad this thread made you feel at home. Blessings (the scientifically-proven positive movement of power, force and energy) to you all. And to all a good night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:06:18 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: S'hippie Subject: comm skills help (YOU) Message: Shp- As straight as I can: You seem to bring a spiritual agenda with you. Whatever I think of it, it doesn't seem as appropriate here as it might be somewhere else. You also seem like an on-the-fence premie. If I want spiritualisms from people who rationalise M, there are other sites that offer this 'service'. We are on this site to fight something (my opinion).. There are other possible ways to approach the situation, but any kind of conciliation with M in the name of the spirit is kind of repulsive. In Christian terms, it's not up to me to forgive a sinner AND a sinner can't be forgiven without their own repentance. Whether you are an on-the-fence premie or not, you are too quick with the groovy spiritual insights for me. It's not that I am an atheist or whatever. It's just not the most appropriate place (my opinion) for that. Re: communication skills: This is a new way to communicate (internet forums). The rules and ways are not 100% clear. There are differences in style. You always, for example, jump in without any hesitation. Do you always stick to the original topic of the thread? Are there specific agendas that are more and less appropriate to this forum? These are not known commodities altho apparently this is a forum of ex-premies so premies and those in the middle might consider this when posting. I have tried to suggest some other issues regarding appropriateness. If you take it to heart, good. If you don't, hoswshallisaythis, kisssoff. I have spent more time posting to you since you came online than commenting on anything else and I have NOT found your presence insightful or helpful. Your a waste of time (my opinion and my opinion only). This is where I am at with you at this point. If it changes GOOD if it doesn't I won't be trying to respond to you as much. I hope it doesn't limit my interest in the forum but it's a free country and a free forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:25:10 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: comm skills help (US) Message: Dear Runamok, I read your post and will take everything you said into serious consideration. I am on no fence, and on all fences at once. 'On the fence' as you put it connotes a weak will and a weak position in general (your privates are in jeopary when fence-sitting). I am neither weak of will or position. I am changing and growing and will resist being labelled by you or anyone else on either side of this issue or any other issue, just like one of those 'hello, my name is' stickers they give you at conventions and business events that come right off a wool jacket, that is how labels will fall off me. I am not judging you or myself. I am allowing myself the freedom to expand my horizons and do whatever it takes to come to a higher understanding and experience of my life. I am a free agent who happened across Maharaji 20-some years ago, bought it lock, stock and barrel, and now is coming in contact with a colorful bunch of folks here who have some ring of truth to their horror stories, which has peaked my interest and my conscience. I will be more mindful of your sensitivities when and if I post to you in the future. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Shippie Subject: Apathy Message: I've said this to you before and I'll say it again.. When you cannot condemn M (and others who cannot), it is reminiscent of the story of a rape occurance where an apartment building full of people watched and did not call the cops. When you say... what did you say.. 'M hadn't done anything that wasn't straight to me'.. it was something like that.. I am reminded of someone watching a rape and not dialing 911. My honest advice to you is to slow down on the forum. Check it out more and read more of the archives. Consider what the major issues are that are being discussed in LARGER terms instead of quickie spiritual fixes.. Too much of that sounds like the kind of rationalisations that were given to stay in premiedom. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:19:25 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: synchronizing Message: It happens that I prevented a rape a few years ago by getting involved. I see no similarity between that and this. Apparently. I am not moving along in my evolution as quickly as you would like. Sorry about that. I have heard things here since that initial post that have made me look harder at the whole enchilada. I have also discovered some issues on my own that give rise to more checking out of the details. I have and will continue to consult the other areas on this site for archival data and the larger issues. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 22:12:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: communication skills help Message: dear shp - I didn't mean that the thread making me feel 'at home' was positive, but you probably got that anyway (emoticons, however obnoxious, do help :) (I resisted using them for a long time, but decided there was no other way.) Anyway, we may be a dysfunctional family here on the forum, but I do feel that we ARE a family. Selene is a good person - I know her pretty well, and I hope you can see your way clear to that. Runamok is too. The reason some people here are so paranoid about you sneaking in thing about Maharaji is that it's been done to them before - I hope you can understand, and allow for that. I honestly don't think you're trying to do that, but I think that you do get somewhat defensive when someone challenges what you say (as Runamok and Selene did). My personal opinion (and this goes for everyone on this forum - not just you) is that I would like to hear your (and other peoples') experiences rather than their philosophies and arguments about the meaning of life. Those are the things that touch me the most. Take care, everyone, Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 21:22:16 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Brian Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Hey Brian, As for the internal and external, I have had glimpses that this barrier we create is an illusion and it's all one thing. In the Coptic gospel of Thomas, who was like the George Harrison of the apostles in that he went to India and expressed himself in a more poetic and mystical way than the others, he attributes these words to Jesus when asked about when the kingdom of heaven would be realized: (as well as I can remember) 'When man and woman can stand naked on their clothes And not be ashamed When the inner and the outer become one....' You said: Truly competent teachers produce teachers - not lifelong students. I say: Ring-a-ding-ding, ring of truth. Point well taken. Food for thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 12:56:47 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Brian Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Brian, I don't know how you have the patience to constantly be able to offer such clear explanations of how you see things. Well done - and I hope you keep up the good work into the next millenium. Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:41:52 (EST)
From: bill-Shri Hens Email: None To: shp Subject: ring a bell Sanford? Message: The confused christian that said it was 'grace' was making a nice platitude or whatever, but was just another person unqualified to lead others. What exactly was it that you arrived here with? It could be viewed that all of it is a gift. What do YOU think is the thing that makes for a happy experience? I say you stand a better chance if you keep it down to a couple key attitudes. The way you greet this continueing moment is the big thing everyone is wrestleing about or fighting about. What makes you/us think that we are meant to get to some group world peace and harmony? I think the evidence says that we are stuck with human nature by design and we aren't going to get it all lined up in some utopic ant colony/bee hive style cooperation. I can be in a room of people that all think the same about god, politics, how to behave, have a code of behavior for every circumstance all the way from cradle to grave. I know that we will find a way to disagree and factionalize and all manner of petty fractures will automatically be there. Human nature. I think I cannot be happy if I don't accept that human nature is real and not be frustrated by the realilty of human nature. If I want to have a loving cheerful time I have to just have it myself and try to make fun as I can. The others around me will definately rain on my parade. Human nature. The only extent I am willing to allow christianity into my ears is to just say that the Yeshua/jesus guy reccomended that trying to love life, you, and those pesky other humans loaded with the total human nature package. Honest to whatever Sanford, everything around me takes turns inviting me to hell. It is only my attitude to it all that controls my experience. Any more religion than that and I get swallowed by human delusion about god. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 23:58:57 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: bill-Shri Hens Subject: ding-dong Message: It's late and I scanned your post and it was long and alot just went in and digested automatcially because you spoke the truth about human nature. At this point in the day/night I am in no condition to respond in any detail, other than to say that we probably have more in common than we don't. Lift weights or pick daisies, whatever floats your boat. Catch ya later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 08:03:34 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: shp Subject: shri hens-hamilton st. 78 Message: ring a bell now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 13:06:31 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: bill Subject: shri hens-hamilton st. 78 Message: not yet....c'mon tell me what you're hinting at. i get the feeling we know each other maybe, what with you dropping hamilton st 78 (?). no connection yet. help me out here. i hate guessing games. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 12:47:38 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bill-Shri Hens Subject: Great post, bill (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 13:25:35 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: bill-Shri Hens Subject: ring a bell Sanford? Message: bill-shri hens You said: What do YOU think is the thing that makes for a happy experience? I think accepting the is-ness of things is a big factor in experiencing happiness. Being optimistic, transmitting good vibes in thought, word and deed outward from within....keeping one's sunny side up...there's more, but I can't write alot right now... You said: What makes you/us think that we are meant to get to some group world peace and harmony? Nothing makes me think that way from the outer circumstances, but somewhere in my memory/dream banks I have an old beat up photo of a peaceful society, of a higher civilization, human beings living in peace...it's fuzzy, but it feels like a real experience, not just a science-fiction flashback from an old Star-Trek episode or something like that. Other than that, it has been my direct experience in this lifetime that there are people on this planet at all times at every possible notch on the consciousness continuum...from cannibalistic, sexual sadists to high holy saints and everything else inbewteen. And looking back in history, it seems that it has always been thus. Just like a radio, all the frequencies are available at all times - heaven, hell, pain, pleasure, joy, sorrow etc. - and wherever we turn our dials, our attention, that is what we receive on our human tuners. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 06:08:41 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: shp Subject: Hartford 78 shri hens sanford? Message: is there more than one east coast Sanford premie? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:13:16 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: bb Subject: hartford rings a bell Message: bb, Newt somebody was the cc in Hartford, I was passing through the area, hung out with the Hartford premies, drew some pictures of Maharaji, Shri Hans and a lady who sang real nice in your community. I gratefully received excellent hospitality from the locals, and then moved on. Your name is very familiar, but I cannot visualize your face. Don't know how many with my name are around. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 00:57:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sandy Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: I thought your Wish was quite beautiful. I don't think it has a darn thing to do with Maharaji and Knowledge --except for the illusion being revealed part-- (you probably disagree) but I still think it is a good wish. Merry Christmas and I hope you enjoyed the feast with your neighbors. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 02:36:05 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: all Subject: S'hippie's press conference Message: Man what a bore. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 13:33:39 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: I feel your pain... Message: You said: Man what a bore. What can I say? When I am bored, it is ususally because I am being mentally lazy or boring myself. Maybe that's your problem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 13:29:17 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: VP Subject: appreciation Message: VP, Thank you for you kind response, for that was the spirit that i wrote the message in. As for the 'illusion being revealed', I meant that across the board, in all situations, having to do with all aspects of our lives, not just one thing or person or situation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 06:58:05 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: shp Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Hi shp, Here's my twopennyworth, for all it's worth. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into your post, and though your goodwill and sincerity are much in evidence, you must realize your 'thought for for the day' approach isn't going to cut it with everybody. (Your message was very much in Keith's style, in fact, when he used to post here.) It's fine by me - and probably everybody else - that you post what you like here, and I'm glad the forum seems have stirred up a few things for you. But you need to be a bit more thick-skinned regarding the responses you will get, and I hope you don't do a Keith and run off to God knows where and put your head back in the sand. You have got to bear in mind that many of your words bear a far-too close resemblance to expressions that we ourselves used to repeat mindlessly ad-infinitum when we were still 'practising Knowledge' (whatever that means). Just one example: In my case, when I received Knowledge, something intuitve kicked in and informed me that this was the common denominator of all the 'Masters' - it all seemed to make sense now. This Knowledge of God - the primordial vibration, the Word, is what all the progenitors of all the world religions actuallly came to bring - not another religious system. Shp, listen to yourself here, please. 'Primordial vibration': what's that, when it is at home? I mean, is that really what it was like, or what you told yourself it was like because that's what you had been led to expect? I think you make several unwarranted logical leaps in this one paragraph alone. First you call your experience the 'common denominator of all the Masters', yet your 'intuition' could not possibly have known about anything of the sort, unless your intuition had been well trained by too much satsang or a few new age books. Then there is the (implied) suggestion that your experience was a gift from an Indian gentleman named Prem Rawat who likes to be called 'Maharaji'. (Read Brian's comments on this. I have nothing to add.) Then there is this wretched 'primordial vibration' expression. Again, it would have to be very a well-trained intuition that could have you believing that you have tapped into some eternally vibrating power supply - when all you really know for sure is that you feel pretty good. We can have all sorts of nice, twinkly mellow experiences when doing all sorts of things, even just through relaxing. I remember as a young lad lying on my bed late at night staring at the lightbulb, and feeling totally at one with the universe. Happened a lot, in fact - but there were no spiritual connotations involved. Another time, years before Knowledge, I discovered 'Nectar' by accident. Strangely pleasant - but no reason to suppose it was anything other than some physiological effect. Then there are the earth-moving delights of delecte flagranto known to lovers everywhere. I reckon our nervous systems are designed for a little bliss from time to time, don't you? Not trying to convert you to anything, by the way. Just trying to explain why coming here and finding myself listening to what sounds like satsang gets right up my nose. But, like I said, I recognise you're trying to connect with everyone on some level we can all relate to. Just don't take it too hard if some of your thoughts provoke a harsh reaction, ok? Have a good one, Nigel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 12:58:17 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: nigel Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Great post, Willi, I mean Larkin, I mean Nigel. THat feeling of contentment laying on the bed and staring up at the lightbulb at night that you experienced as a child--that's the experience I prefer and that I've finally gotten back to (occassionally) after detoxing from the guru/spiritual trips. A cozy feeling of contentment and well-being. That's something we can all have without the shenanigans/heaviness of 'Knowledge', etc. (IMO). It's a feeling of being blissed in rather than blissed out, because it involves being IN one's mind in a most glorious way. Hope you had a good Christmas...loved your post about the heath and the Vikings on the starlight nite..very evocative and imaginative...say hello to jolly old England. I studied inLondon as an undergrad and absolutely loved it. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 15:30:41 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Helen Subject: a story, a question, a wish Message: Hi Helen, Thanks for the kind words (loved the 'blissed in', by the way). I noticed you saying you had a folk trio, the other day. What sort of stuff do you do - if you don't mind me asking? (And could you use an out-of-practice mandolin man?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 13:48:04 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: nigel Subject: got it Message: nigel, thank you for your patience and trying to relate. you read me loud and clear regarding my motivation to be here and communicate with you all. i'm ok with the flak, i can handle it. please understand. however, just as you see my behavior as 'stereotypical', comparing me to somebody named keith as well as other premies - so do i see the behaviors of some here as stereotypical of the angry, disillusioned young man or woman with the proverbial chip-on-the-shoulder, ready to go off on anyone who is passing by. I don't like to stereotype or be stereotyped, I like to deal one-on-one with the individual, all unique as snowflakes. i will make an effort to express myself in a way that will not antagonize folks, but you can't please everybody, ya know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 16:02:58 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: shp Subject: don't get me wrong, shp Message: I'm not trying to stereotype you, shp, and I don't think you, as a person, are really like Keith at all (you're sharper than he is, and more willing to see other people's viewpoints). It was just that post of yours reminded me of many of Keith's. (And yes, we are all unique - which is one reason that any kind of 'one-size-fits-all' trip like Knowledge can be a bad, often dangerous thing for many people.) But what got to me was your casual use of stereotypical premie expressions which might have been taken from 'Teach Yourself Satsang', page 1. I cringe whenever I hear them, mostly because I remember using them all myself; telling friends and family about 'connecting with that universal energy within', or 'this is the same message that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna taught'. And insisting that 'It is not a belief, it is an experience', or 'I don't just believe that Maharaji is the Lord - he has shown me that he is the Lord, by revealing to me something inside myself' etc. For me, the most insidious form of belief is the one that disguises itself as an experience, so that too-cool-to-be-fooled young westerners can feel smug when they look across at the dogmatic religious types singing their hymns and reading scriptures. (While we just sang Arti and read 'And it is Divine'...) But it is a belief all the same - and the roots of that belief is the aspirant process which has the psychological power to change: A pleasant, relaxed feeling INTO The Primordial Vibration Mr Prem Pal Rawat INTO The Lord of The Universe A Nebulous Hiss INTO Divine Music A Dark Visual Fuzz INTO White Light etc. Prem's insipid allegorical stories INTO Profound Wisdom Good Luck INTO Divine Grace Bad Luck INTO More surrender required Foot-kissing INTO Darshan Shp, by all means enjoy your meditation, if that's what works for you, but try not to kid yourself that it was 'intuition' rather than the aspirant indoctrination and, yes, belief system that joined up all the dots for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 19:29:47 (EST)
From: nigel Email: None To: nigel Subject: correction... you focus a bit Message: shp, I thought I should add that on reflection your header post wasn't really like Keith's at all, at least in structure. ie., yours had a structure and a central point you were trying to make. Keith just rambled (as he does to this day in censored premie cyber-hell). Sorry about that. xmas kiss? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 19:31:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: Smarter than Keith? Really? Message: Nigel, It's hard to say who's smarter between these two guys. Keith once impressed as someone with a few loose screws but, safe and relaxed over in his MMT petting zoo, he's settled down. What's safe to say, though, is that Sandy and Keith both act like STRIPPED screws. Or maybe there's a better human metaphor. Say you're climbing and your partner gets stuck. You're positioned securely above and you've got the skill and equipment to get them out. All they have to do is get an initial foothold and take it, literally, one step at a time. How weird and frustrating, then, if, for some bizarre reason, they GET that foothold, only to abandon it before the second's secured! What can you do then? You can't 'build' their rescue out of anything. No matter how much you can envision their escape, without their concentration and committment, forget it. Sandy -- like Keith, is going to have to make some sure-footed progress up and around certain mental obstructions before he'll ever be able to engage the Maharaji question properly. Problem is, he's not yet ready and willing to do more than test a couple of footholds, test them for a few moments, then step back down. That's all I see. In essence, it IS like being a stripped screw. There's just nothing 'grabbing' him and forcing his movement because the only way facts can arguments can 'grab' someone is if they're willing to subejct their minds rationally to the full weight and effect of those facts and arguments. Unfortunately, the new age culture all of us here have been affected by to varying degrees, actually discourages that kind of engagement. Mild but effective slef-induced autism. Keith can't be reached intellectually because he's 'protected' by his 'spiritual knowledge' from letting any fact or argument grab him rationally. He calls it 'free' but it's the freedom of the stuck climber who, in his delerium, refuses to tie the rope around his waist. He's 'free' too, free to stay forever on his isolated perch. Is Sandy smarter than Keith? The only test that matters is whether he's smart enough to tie the rope on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 20:51:18 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Smarter and Sweeter? Message: I gotta say Jim, we've never had some of the arguments that we could have had (and still might), re: evolution, creationism, etc. Not that I disagree with you, just that I find those areas tangential to the discussion of M. BUT, every time (well ok twice), I even vaguely side with people in order to say that you are a fanatic of some sort- the end result seems to be an endless stream of meaningless dribble from a premie or similar fence-sitting type individual. It's funny cause I really am something of metaphysical believer myself. However, there is such a thing as inappropriate and appropriate times and places for various types of discussions. Just as I'm not sure the forum is the best vehicle for vehement expousal of any certain scientific point of view, I AM 100% CERTAIN it is the worst place for a lot new age vomit. Like I say, I agree with a lot of it, but I'm just not surfing over to this website to get a positive, metaphysical fix especially in regards to my feelings about M. The thing is, I'm about ready to FLAME ON cause the threads are about to degenerate in to Ship's opinions on different aspects of the physical plane. Ship's opinion on each and every criticism which he lovingly accepts while making it clear that WE have a lot to learn. Ship's philosophy about sex and marriage. Ship's good karmic acts. Ship's relationship with Stephen Gaskin. Etcetera.. NOTICE: I'm about ready to flame on with this guy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 23:42:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Smarter and Sweeter? Message: Run, Your post is like a velvet-gloved backhand. I'm sorry it's so hard to side with people who want to call me a fanatic. If there's anything I can to to help, let me know. In the meantime, please flame shp all you want -- just be fair and, when you get a chance, pick up this new Dawkins book, Unweaving the Rainbow. It's great AND I'm sure you'll love it. Just finished the section about people like you. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 01:38:24 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dryer and Sweeter (U&Me) Message: I've learned not to try to make the threads stay on one subject- but yeah fair enuf- I'm sliding in other stuff while my main point is about Ship. Honestly so bored by Ship's pontification. Yeah I'll check out your books one day. I will (zzzz). But my tough velvet touch is more about holding back on Ship.. Seems like when the forum isnt totally dominated by one premie or fence sitter, it's often on it's toes trying to avoid unpleasant situations. I'm agreeing with your general countenance; that it's hardly worth it trying to be polite! Netiquette is a new and evolving phenomena. It doesn's seem appropriate to me to come on line for the first time and start posting a dozen times. This is not a rule, obviously. When I first checked out the forum. I lurked on and off for months. Then I decided to post but lurked for a few days. Then I tried to limit my postings to 2 a day (approx)and in fact I still do. These aren't rules obviously, but it doesn't engender respect, especially from premies or the like, who decide they are God's gift to the exes. I particularly find spiritual banter obnoxious even tho I do believe in much of it. I guess the democracies of the world have to let people see the turmoil of their processes as we do. I guess(?). But maybe we could evolve more guidelines that we use.. Like I say, I know that sometimes I take it easy and do quickie how's the weather style posts to avoid disaster on line. Let's see. I could argue with Jim more about science. I could express more of my opinion about BB (which is less harsh than the postings I have seen around here). Or my opinions about meditation. By the way Jim, what is this 'parameter' thing you've been sprouting lately? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 20:58:30 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: I think so, at least Message: Call it 'intuition', if you will. Sandy -- like Keith, is going to have to make some sure-footed progress up and around certain mental obstructions before he'll ever be able to engage the Maharaji question properly. Problem is, he's not yet ready and willing to do more than test a couple of footholds, test them for a few moments, then step back down. That's all I see. Funny metaphor, Jim. Perhaps the reason Sandy reminded me of Keith is the way he appears to be climbing that tricky rockface in public, whilst letting others, watching with binoculars from elsewhere, formulate theories as to which crampon they're reached so far. Keith decided the changes had gone far enough and scurried back down to base camp 'cause it looked too stormy at the summit (or something - hey! it's your analogy. I don't know where to take this...) The trouble is, nobody changes their mind during the heat of an argument, do they? Changes happen in quiet reflection later on. Call it pride, whatever - we all have it. Slowly the things that others have said to you become absorbed and reappear from your own mouth as if they were your own thoughts. I still have a copy of that well-and-truly-fucked-up letter you wrote to your folks prior to Millenium '73. Reading it is funny now, when everything contained therein is just about the opposite of what you would be saying today. But I am trying to imagine the mental obstructions you had to go past on your own rockface, just as I remember the irrational crap I used to come out with the day I tried to justify my latent premiehood (though by now I called it 'agnosticism') to the first argumentative atheist (now my best friend) that challenged me. I'm just glad I didn't have to do it with too many people watching. New year prediction: Sandy will still be here twelve months hence. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 at 23:35:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: Here, yes, but how? Message: Nigel, I won't be surprised if Sandy's still here a year from now but I will be if he's jettisoned his new age blinders by then. Here's what he'll have to do: 1) Recognize that M's a fraud. 2) Recognize that his new-age programming made it exceedingly more difficult for Step 1 to happen than need be. 3) Turn his newly-sharpened lights on ALL his new age beliefs with the same relish with which your average 14 year-old boy plays with his first flame thrower. You're absolutely right that Sandy's in a bit of a pickle here. His problem is that he only has us to talk to. What he really needs is a big, fat discussion with some gurunoids who are that much heavier in the faith than him. THAT'S how I got myself out - I TALKED myself out. (Just liked I talked myself in. I loved going to satsang those first few weeks. What I REALLY loved, though, was being able to tell my other friends the 'good news'. It crystallized the concepts in my mouth, gave me new-found crednetials as a supporter and UNDERSTANDER of something radical, and allowed me to test my faith [good] against the skepticism on the street [bad].) Now how did I walk so far from where I was writing that Millenium letter to today? First, it took years in which I no longer spouted all that religious brainwashing even though I would never have consciously disavowed it. There must have been a good three years like that. Then it took a whole new period in DLM -- 1976 -- where we were allowed, even encouraged, to rekindle and express our doubts (even if we thought we were just doing so to prove our 'realness' to one another). Then it took some visceral dissatisfaction with the renewed heavy religiosity of the late seventies and some devil-may-care apathy about the fate of my soul. So what if I don't 'realize Knowledge'? Toyed with that for a few years. Then it took the refound joy and confidence of using my mind all over again. School, after all those years of imitating a dry sponge, was fun. Still that wasn't enough. A big turning point was definitely meeting Bob Kirby (Maharaji's former plumnber and sometime resident hanger-on). He hated Maharaji at that point and loved -- LOVED -- sticking his finger in these holes we found in the Wizard's curtain and seeing how far they pulled apart. Then there was my finally having the guts to stand up at a program and be counted publically as a doubter. And I'm sure that Raja Ji could have possibly said all sorts of things to me the next day when we met for a drink that might have stopped me in my tracks. What he did say though, that Maharaji wouldn't even answer HIS questions was not the right think to quell my doubts. Hardly. In fact, as I walked Raja Ji back out to his giant, late model old-man style Mercedes, I gloated for the first time that, in my mind at least, I finally had the guru on the run. I'D spoken out at a program and I'D challenged his own brother with all my doubts. He, in my mind now fuelled by Johnny Walker and his brother's own lack of confidence in him, was hiding. Then it took LOTS and lots of discussions with other premies over the next few years. Trying to spell out and maybe even solve some of the riddles we'd never noticed or had minimized or suppressed so long. This went on for years. I still wasn't comfortable saying that Maharaji was a fraud for the longest time. Then there was the net and all the discussion here, learning all the many things I'd never known before about the real man behind the mask. And all along, as a major warning of how NOT to think or conduct myself, has been the premies' own cowardice. That's kept me going, as you can well imagine. So it's been a process for sure. I'm the first to admit it. Yeah, I wonder just WHERE shp will be a year from now. Good question. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 02:19:16 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: a year from now? moi? Message: You said: Yeah, I wonder just WHERE shp will be a year from now. Good question. I say: Speculating about the future is such a waste of time. I am here now and that is all there is. Same goes for us all. (If this is the 'pontificating' that Runamok hates, I better put on my flame-resisitant gear...but it is the simple truth.) I hope to be in a 'good' place, i.e. being in harmony with the universe, myself, my family, enough of the physical plane to suffice, health, simple joys, friends, and time to enjoy it all. Also, I hope to have a clear vision of what is going on in the world with regard to all the major changes going on, and that I have a current 'scorecard' so I really and truly know 'who's on first' in this cosmic game we are all involved in. I hope to know where the high ground is both internally and externally so that I can save myself and my family from harm. And I wish the same for you and yours. btw, the way some of you (Jim and Runamok this time) discuss me like a lab rat is not exactly an incentive to see things your way or even want to find out more about you, if that is what you are trying to accomplish. I am not crying foul, I am just saying that I don't consider it good form in any context. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 14:34:17 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp Subject: yeah, a year from now! Message: shp: I just can't stand it... I have to say something about time and the new-age perception, thereof. HERE AND NOW is NOT all there is/was/will be. Yesterday is the mistake that you learn from, today is what you are doing now and TOMORROW is what you PLAN for. That incredibly flawed be-here-now philosophy is that which prevents people from growing in the way that they wish. If you don't plan, you don't grow. If you don't learn from yesterday, you don't grow. If all that you are aware of, or allow yourself to think about, is NOW, then you will likely wander in circles because you don't have a 'map.' Maps are pretty useful; they show where you are, where you've been and where you need to go. If you just look at 'where you are,' you ain't gonna go anywhere at all. Don't include me in that bogus be-here-now mentality; the 'same' DOES NOT go for us all! Here and Now IS NOT the only thing that is 'real,' except to those that follow that eastern mysticism claptrap. Well, now wait a minute.... I'm wrong....Be-here-now IS the only reality to those that are mindless (read that: brain dead); the two go hand-in-hand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 20:39:30 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: between the lines Message: The best way I can plan for the future is to take care of things the best I can in the present. I am not a burnt out hippie who doesn't realize everything you said in your post about past, present and future, the time-space continuum, etc etc. Geez, are you just reading me in a shallow way or do I come off to anybody else like a space cadet in this matter? You can plan and plan and plan for the future and your plan can blow up in your face. So then what? Non-attachment to the plan insures no pain, but that doesn't mean you don't make the plan. I knew that, you silly! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 01:46:44 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim, nigel, the universe Subject: screw this in, jimmy Message: Jim said: Is Sandy smarter than Keith? The only test that matters is whether he's smart enough to tie the rope on. I say: It's a matter of trusting the guy on the other end of the rope in my case, jim, not that my threads are stripped. You fancy yourself above me for starters, in a more secure position..and you are full of very intellectually titillating information, wit, intelligence, creative writing skills, but it is tainted with so much anger and pent up tension that I question your personal climbing ability based on your own expressions on this site. The way you put it about me tying your rope on being the sign of intellignece is the height of peer group ego pressure from you and is no more valid a stimulus to climb up your way than to follow anyone else on the mountain. I am going up the mountain one way or the other, or will die in my attempts. My faith is in the invisible from which we all emanate. My common sense will show me the way, not your intimidating, demeaning remarks. Happy New Year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 03:45:12 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: Bittersweet Message: Thing is Shippy my boy, sometimes in life we come to a crossroads and figure this ain't worth it.. I'm not involved in any kind of x-premie promotional campaign. It's not really my problem whether you stay around here or not. I'm not hanging around looking for a fight. Some people want to make you welcome here it's true. I really think you are a pulling the forum down for all your verbal positivity. Honestly, I wish you would get lost but it's not for me to say. I don't think you'll change for years and I don't much want to change you. I just want this scene to be free to do what it's best at doing- exposing M for the cult-leading con that he is. I hope it helps some people that we do that. The conversational and chatty format of these threads hides a dead seriousness of purpose- at least for me. At one time I would have felt in physical danger to say the things I have said online here. If it works out differently (better) that's cool. But I'm not gonna be holding my breath. Don't you really belong on the flame free forum anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 11:45:54 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: bettersweet Message: You said: The conversational and chatty format of these threads hides a dead seriousness of purpose- at least for me. At one time I would have felt in physical danger to say the things I have said online here. Runny, my boy, I know how serious this matter is. And I have posted my name here knowing full well lots of folks are looking. Remaining calm - conversational as you put it - is a good thing to do when you have any sort of crisis or emergency or 'serious matter' - what do you want? People all over the world busting blood vessels in their necks from tension and squirting blood all over their computer screens to show how serious this is? I know the feeling of thinking I am in physical danger in my search for the truth. It's a very paralyzing feeling, eh? Got to get over it to proceed, don't we? You said: Don't you really belong on the flame free forum anyway? Belong? You'd like it if you could put everybody where they 'belong', wouldn't you? Then you'd just be surrounded with people who think exactly the same as you do, endorsing your decisions in life and keeping you pumped up with your own beliefs and misbeliefs. And the only newcomers would be wide-eyed empty vessels waiting for your 'knowledge of the way things really' are to fill them to the eyeballs, no questions asked. Sound familiar? You said: I'm not involved in any kind of x-premie promotional campaign. It's not really my problem whether you stay around here or not. I'm not hanging around looking for a fight. Likewise, I am not involved in any kind of premie promtional campaign. Your non-attachment to my destiny is healthy. I am not looking for a fight either. Whatever has gone down between us, I just hope we both land on our feet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 14:44:42 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp Subject: never-sweet Message: shp: Would you be more specific concerning our 'misbeliefs,' as you described them? You throw these generalizations around all of the time, in virtually EVERY post. So now I, for one, am calling you on it! Tell me which 'beliefs' we have that are wrong! Then please provide the proof for your assertion that they are wrong. Be specific, please! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 29, 1998 at 20:48:03 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: never sweet reply Message: Mike, We all have beliefs and misbeliefs...none of us has all our beliefs 100% validated. I was not referring to anything in particular. Anyway, beliefs are things we are all entitled to without the judgement or encroachment of others, as long as those beliefs don't trespass on other people's rights. I was not referring to Maharaji, perhaps I was referring to all the banter about various philosophies and writers that goes on around here I stand corrected. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 14:09:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: screw this in, jimmy Message: shp, The 'rope' is your own sense of logic. Not mine, yours. That's what you've cast aside so casually -- just as all your new-age opinion leaders tried to have you do. I'll be as simple and clear about this as I know how: unless you commit yourself to rationality with all of its constraints you will never have 'clarity'. You won't even know what the word means. A year from now, ten years from now, it won't matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 16:32:26 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: logic, fascinating concept Message: To: James Heller From: Sanford H. Pass Re: Life To try to apply logic to everything in life is not logical from my experience. It has been my experience that some things I have encountered in my life required something besides logic, and that something you have branded 'new age thinking'. This phenomenon has been around thousands of years. There is nothing new age about a hunch, an instinct, an intuition...tempered with thought, but not ruled by it. Happy climbing yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 17:10:26 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: logic, fascinating concept Message: There is nothing new age about a hunch, an instinct, an intuition...tempered with thought, but not ruled by it. I agree with this (and I don't see why we are arguing about this so much on the forum - maybe I just don't GET it...) My decision to leave Maharaji was based on intuition and my gut feelings more than rationally thinking the whole thing through. It's been my experience that a lot of premies are very good at defending against logical reasons why they shouldn't follow Maharaji - I know I was when I was a premie. I can understand why logic and rational thought is so highly prized by many people on the forum, because we wouldn't have believed in Maharaji in the first place if we'd really been able to consider the whole trip logically and rationally. I began following because I was emotionally attracted to it (irrational), but I got out of it in the same way. I do think it's helpful for people to look at Maharaji rationally - I just don't think it's the ONLY way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 17:15:48 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: logic, fascinating concept Message: Good point, Katie. This kind of ties in with the discussion of boundaries and co-dependency above. I get a gut feeling (a warning in my gut) if someone is asking too much of me or violating my boundaries, it's not always a logical thing. This reminds me of that book 'The Gift of Fear'. Those gut feelings and hunches are important to our survival. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 18:24:38 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Helen\Katie\Sandy etc Subject: It's still your brain, though. Message: Well yes and no, Intuition/gut-feelings are good indicator for assessing all sorts of ideas, even scientific theories (IMHO). My possible over-reaction to Eat Right 4 Your Type was a gut-feeling, and still I feel in my guts that there's something not quite kosher about D'Adamo (no foodie-pun intended), and I trust that feeling. And when, as a premie, you start to feel bad about Maharaji's game, it's probably because your brain/nervous system has already leaped to some useful conclusions you seriously need to make yourself aware of. Unseen logical connections working on your behalf, before you quite get there. But then again, gut feelings can lead you into all sorts of crap - including bad relationships as well as irrational prejudice and discrimination. Intuition may provide a useful rule of thumb but ultimately we all have to fall back on our rational minds to understand anything properly, and warn us about which gut feelings not to trust in future. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 21:41:57 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: nigel Subject: It's still your brain, though. Message: Yes it's my BRAIN. BRAIN BRAIN BRAIN. Sometimes I feel I'm in a science fiction movie 'The Brain That WOuldn't Die'. It was on Mystery Science Theater 3K. A beautiful woman is killed in an accident and her lover, the mad scientist, keeps her head alive in some fluid in a lasagna pan. Then the madscientist-lover goes around trying to find a suitable body to whom he can re-attach his girlfriend's head. REALLY BAD MOVIE. Deliciously cheesey. Perhaps Mickey remembers it as he is a Mystery Science Theater 3K fan Of course these hunches are our brains, but logic seems to be bypassed when we have them. Perhaps it is a matter of pattern-recognition. In the case of my being able to instantly recognize patterns of co-dependency, perhaps it is because I've seen it over and over again, having learned the same lesson a trillion times, and suffered over and over the consequences of getting into 'co-dependent relationships'. I'm like a rat whose been zapped a million times when I go for a certain pellet. And perhaps instinct is something we're hard-wired to have. But some brain processes do by-pass logic (IMO)...Now I don't want to get into a whole thread about this...I've done this same argument over & over & over. Beating that horse to death.... Regarding not having $$$$ (which you spoke of in our discussion about music)--that's a whole thread in & of itself--ex-premies and money-making prowess (or lack thereof). Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 23:12:18 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: It's still your brain, though. Message: Dear Nigel - I agree that it's still your brain, and that intuition is just a different kind of thought process. Frankly, I have gotten into worse situations by following my so-called 'rational' thinking than by following my intuition or gut feelings. I do distinguish between the two, BTW. I don't think intuition is the same as gut feeling, but the two usually come at almost the same time for me. I have the intuition, and then have a gut feeling that it is right. I do agree that gut feelings do need to be examined rationally - obviously, as you said, they can lead to all kinds of weird predjudices because of past traumas and so forth. It's my opinon that linear and logical thought can sometimes become limiting or circular, and that intuition, or a leap across the linear, can be helpful in problem solving. I am sure you have heard the story about the scientist who was trying to figure out the structure of the benzene ring, and dreamed about a snake eating its tail. This is the kind of thing that I mean. I really NEEDED to make an intuitive leap to be able to leave Maharaji - I was stuck in circular reasoning. I'm sure this wasn't true for everyone, but I did want to say that it does happen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 05:02:30 (EST)
From: nigel Email: None To: Katie & Helen Subject: I agree with both of you! Message: Dear Katie and Helen, I wasn't meaning to be provocative in that last post, or get everyone talking about nothing but brains. I agree 'intuition' can be absolutely essential, and yes Katie, the benzine ring guy is a good example of the kind of thing I was trying to say (especially as it would have to be his rational mind that ultimately tested the 'intuitive' discovery). But I don't think I expressed myself very well, as the point I was trying to make was that we shouldn't confuse any unconscious processing of our own with some mysterious, possibly external or 'spiritual' thing that serves as a surefooted guide - which is how I read Sandy's expression about 'something that has been around for thousands of years' (but maybe I am misunderstanding what he meant.) I think it is only a very short hop from trusting all your hunches to believing in guardian angels or seeing Maharaji's 'Grace' everywhere. Also, Katie, that was a good point about premie reasoning having its own rock-solid logic that it is hard to jump out of. I guess that is what is meant by 'rationalising'. How you really feel gets overridden by the idea of how much worse things could be if you stop practising (the 'rotten vegetables' trap!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 08:56:09 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: nigel Subject: I agree with both of you! Message: I did not think you were being provocative . It's just that I'm a little burned out on brain science. Not everyone is going to have a passion for it. I like hearing a variety of opinions on the forum. Hearing about brain science over and over again is a bit like being pecked to death by ducks. HA HA Now where's that cute friend of yours named Willi? Tell him to pay us a visit so we can flirt with him a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 10:33:07 (EST)
From: nigel Email: None To: Helen Subject: Point taken! Message: I'll wait till someone else raises the subject in future. Meanwhile, how exactly did you find out what 'being pecked to death by ducks' was like? (Unless maybe it is something they do in the ashram :) Willi is in the studio, working on a 'concept' album and trying to stop Noriko getting too uppity. He says he'll come visit you all in the new year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 11:12:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: We love you, Nigel... Message: Hi Nigel - This is just to say that I didn't think you were being provocative either (although I did like Helen's anology about being 'pecked to death by ducks'!) I am glad you knew the story about the benzene ring, too - I learned that one in chemistry class. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 12:59:11 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: We love you, Nigel... Message: We love you, man Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 19:35:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: I can't agree with you, Katie Message: Sandy - There is nothing new age about a hunch, an instinct, an intuition...tempered with thought, but not ruled by it. then: Katie - I agree with this (and I don't see why we are arguing about this so much on the forum - maybe I just don't GET it...) '...but not ruled by it.' There's the whole newage problem in a phrase. As if there's some respectable way we can reject our own rational thought process. There isn't! Newage thinking, appealing to our childhood credulity (this is exactly what I'm reading about in Dawkins' new book, by the way) promises us otherwise. If reason dictates that its foolhardy to put the slightest stock in astrology, say, ....'there simply MUST be another way. See, I WANT astrology to be true. I want it, I want it, I want it. Doesn't that count?' Only in newage circles, fella. Otherwise you're SOL. I can understand why logic and rational thought is so highly prized by many people on the forum, because we wouldn't have believed in Maharaji in the first place if we'd really been able to consider the whole trip logically and rationally. I began following because I was emotionally attracted to it (irrational), but I got out of it in the same way. I do think it's helpful for people to look at Maharaji rationally - I just don't think it's the ONLY way. Katie, I can't agree here at all. I remember not just my own recruitment but also that of so many others. Invariably, the arguments for their being a creator, for him being willing and able to manifest as a 'master' and for Maharaji being that master, were completely central to the indoctrination process. These were good arguments, for the most part, and we waved them with zealous pride and confidence. It made 'perfect sense' that the awesome beauty of nature would be but a 'gift' from a loving, munificent creator. It made 'perfect sense' that that creator wouldn't stand by and watch his troubled 'children' burn in their ignorance. It made 'perfect sense' that that creator could and would 'come' however he damned well wanted to show us the way home. To the extent that the picture fit some more classic idea of god/love/realization we bought it and argued from THAT premise. To the extent that the picture was idiosyncratic (his youth, fat, ulcer, family split, ice cream) we fit alterantive premises like lila in and argued accordingly. Best of all, if, as it sometimes happened, we ran up against a particularly challenging fact (like the family split) we always enjoyed the final logical escape -- one can't argue themselves into heaven. In short, we were entirely rational in our hackneyed, naive, misinformed way. All you have to do is read 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' if you need to refresh your memory. That book is nothing but an argument for Maharaji, right down to the tortured scriptural references and the laughable abuse of the then-latest scientific findings. I'd suggest that when you started leaving Maharaji, there, too, you were really quite dependent on thinking your way through something quite difficult. At one point, you believed he was the Lord. eaving time, though, you were at minimum willing to test a 'hunch' that he wasn't. That hunch was informed by your recognition that the argument supporting his legitimacy was jerry-rigged to begin with and falling over on its own unfounded specualtion. That's why you had a little room at last. It's been my experience that a lot of premies are very good at defending against logical reasons why they shouldn't follow Maharaji - I know I was when I was a premie. I'm not sure what you mean here unless its really in support of what I'm saying. Yes, premies are good at defending against logical reasons against the Hamster. The reason is that they have their own LOGICAL defences and, like I was saying, when those fail they have the last 'logical bit of wisdom' that one doesn't need logic in this one special area of life. Inconsistent? Yes. Illogical? No. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 at 22:48:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: I can't agree with you, Katie Message: Hi Jim - I read your answer and I think we are arguing on parallel, but not convergent tracks here. I think you and Sandy may be also - we're not defining terms very well here, for one thing. For example, I believe that intuition IS a type of thought - it's just not linear thought. Anyway, I will try and clarify some of the things I said. Perhaps I shouldn't have made some of the generalizations I made in my statement, but some of them are true for me. For example, my decision to get involved with Maharaji was NOT rational, it was emotional. I was emotionally attracted to the warmth and love around the premies. I don't recall being rationally attracted to him at all - I had to endure a lot of cognitive dissonance to even follow M in the first place. As far as reading 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' and similar 'logical' explanations of why we followed Maharaji, I can't relate. I don't even think I ever read the book - I wasn't interested in a rational explanation at the time (I think even then I knew that that was bogus.) Re: my leaving Maharaji, when I left, I still had some belief that he might be the Lord, or whatever. (People have talked about this before on here - you know: 'better to be free in hell than a slave in heaven). My decision to leave was based on my intuition, and on my feelings. Basically, it just FELT better not to follow him. My rational mind could come up with all kinds of reasons to keep following him, but I felt so much better that I was able to ignore all these things. A central precept of Jungian psychology (and I am not promoting Jung here, nor do I wish to argue about it, because this is about all I know about Jung) is that people perceive the world in different ways. I think Jung divided this into four parts: people who primarily perceive the world logically and linearly, those who perceive primarily by emotion, those who perceive primarily by intuition, and those who perceive primarily through the evidence of their senses. I think this is a valid concept, and that's mainly what I was trying to express in my message above. I am primarily an intuitive person - I've been trained in rational, linear thought, so I'm able to express myself in that way, but it doesn't come naturally to me (for example, I am reasonably intelligent, but am terrible at games like chess which require a lot of linear thought). My experience on the forum has been that a logical, rational argument about Maharaji convinces some people, but not all. I have found people's expressions of their own feelings and experiences to be more convincing, and I think other people do too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 01:33:55 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Katie Subject: Jungian footnotes Message: Katie, the way I remember that is four aspects of each person, not individual types. We (on the forum) seem to attempt discussion of rather grandiose philosophical issues without any kind of attempt to establish ground rules. Part of our prob is we are still expecting some quick fix on truth like the cultists that we were. For myself, my gut reactions tell me alot sometimes and I usually know when. I wish that we would stick to sharing on different subjects where they do not relate directly to M, and stick to debating on issues which relate to M. As in, is M evil? Is legal action possible? It's understandable to want to debate the existence of God but there is nothing about this situation that makes it particularly possible for us to intelligently debate it. Likewise, assumptions on the part of forum participants that either God exists and we should remember it, OR that God doesn't exist and we should remember it seem counterproductive. In spite of believing in God, I am personally more offended by religious pronouncements on the forum than the other. But an issue worth discussing would be if there can be religion after M. Anyway, Katie, you aren't dogmatic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 02:00:23 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Jungian footnotes Message: Hi Runamok - You wrote: I wish that we would stick to sharing on different subjects where they do not relate directly to M, and stick to debating on issues which relate to M... It's understandable to want to debate the existence of God but there is nothing about this situation that makes it particularly possible for us to intelligently debate it. Likewise, assumptions on the part of forum participants that either God exists and we should remember it, OR that God doesn't exist and we should remember it seem counterproductive. I couldn't agree more. I don't think it's a pre-requisite for ex-premies to either believe or not believe in God, or anything else. As I've said before, there are ex-premies on this forum who believe MANY different things (even so-called 'new age' beliefs), and that doesn't preclude them from being ex-premies. I agree that debate about these other beliefs tends to be counter-productive, as it distracts from the main topic of the forum. The main reason that we are here is to talk about our experiences with Maharaji - NOT to discuss the existence of God, or to argue about various other beliefs. I appreciate you saying this so clearly. In fact, a lot of people who post here don't even talk about their other spiritual (or non-spiritual) beliefs because it leads to big off-topic arguments. P.S. Re Jungian philosophy - you are right, I think, in that the theory was that there are those four aspects (thinking, feeling, intuition, and sensation) in each person. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 04:50:19 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Katie Subject: Jungian footnotes, cont. Message: Actually, Jung distinguished between emotion and feeling and I think it was feeling where intuition is on your list. Feeling was the more internal and emotion more the persona of feeling. I also think we (the forum) tend toward small talk and slap-on-the-back style agreement in order to avoid argument. Netiquette is an evolving phenomena and informality and sometimes rudeness are correct, it's just not clear exactly when (or to what extent, referring to informality) to use these and how to use them. With Ship, entire threads seem to degenerate into back and forths with him where he acknowledges our comments. Polite commentary becomes useless, as when other premies and fencesitters have gotten so defensive as to cite their off line history of good works... Yeah, right and send Jim the witness list too I mean what the fuck? Wasn't it Mel Bourne who starting telling us all he had done for Aboriginal people? Just because we don't have a guru is no reason to assume we want one. And the missionary mentality isn't so hard to spot in oneself. This is something |