Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 9

From: Mar 7, 1998

To: Mar 14, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5


John K. -:- X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:05:41 (EST)
___VP -:- M=Fraud -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:18:49 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:45:46 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:27:33 (EST)
___Mili -:- M=M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:33:58 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:40:28 (EST)
___VP -:- Re:M=M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:46:34 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:19:29 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: M=Fraud -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:30:09 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:47:15 (EST)
___VP -:- Off topic-new guitar -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:01:14 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Off topic-new guitar -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:19:46 (EST)
___VP -:- The Enemy -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:51:12 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: The Enemy -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:20:57 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: The Enemy -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:56:56 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:29:10 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:17:38 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:24:15 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:29:08 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: M=M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:41:30 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:57:57 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:38:48 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:43:48 (EST)
___Aesop -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:47:06 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Aesop's de-legitimation of VP -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:19:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:37:20 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Aesop's de-legitimation of VP -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:48:20 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:49:00 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: X=P-M -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:51:53 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: The Enemy -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:00:32 (EST)
___VP -:- Who says friends are hard to find? -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:42:04 (EST)

gumby -:- Bounced Mail... -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 03:57:57 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Bounced Mail... -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:07:57 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Bounced Mail... -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:36:09 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Bounced Mail... -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:03:54 (EST)

gumby -:- Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 03:48:20 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 05:37:16 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 11:48:16 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 12:04:16 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:34:43 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:46:47 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:58:54 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:13:36 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:22:17 (EST)
___VP -:- Off Subject-identity of student -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:25:57 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:47:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:48:47 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:20:05 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:30:53 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:37:23 (EST)
___John K. -:- the skin crawls off topic -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:08:05 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:11:49 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:14:28 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:21:36 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:56:33 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:57:29 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:09:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:19:55 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:27:47 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:41:42 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:46:25 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: the skin crawls off topic -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:30:56 (EST)
___concept -:- stew -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:56:18 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: the skin crawls off topic -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:48:25 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: the skin crawls off topic -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:49:15 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: the skin crawls off topic -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 23:00:00 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:35:10 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:44:32 (EST)
___Mili -:- to John Cavad -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:48:49 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 02:30:38 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:36:13 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:48:02 (EST)
___student -:- Re: stew -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 07:51:46 (EST)
___student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:01:51 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:59:03 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:08:45 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: to John Cavad -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:55:55 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:21:27 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Test Truth -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:31 (EST)

VP -:- Fleetwood Mac -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 01:31:54 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Fleetwood Mac -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 05:55:39 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Fleetwood Mac -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:42:23 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Fleetwood Mac -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 09:14:30 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: 'famous premies' -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:33:14 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Fleetwood Mac -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:19:46 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: 'famous premies' -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:23:47 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: 'famous premies' -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:36:40 (EST)
___John K. -:- Mac Bashing! -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:44:57 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: 'famous premies' -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:03:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:08:20 (EST)
___Katie off topic -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:01:35 (EST)
___JW (on PBS off topic) -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:43:21 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:47:10 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:43:25 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:44:32 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:48:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Deadheads vs MacHeads -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:57:56 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:14:26 (EST)
___JW -- To Katie and Joy, Oh, Please! -:- Re: Deadheads vs MacHeads -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:33:24 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:11:35 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Mac Bashing! -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:13:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Deadheads vs MacHeads -:- Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:33 (EST)



Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Everyone
Subject: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:05:41 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: M=Fraud (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I as living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? John K., You are missing M. It's right there in your own equation. I agree that it SHOULD be simpler. We are all humans. We do have very similar experiences. We should all be able to relate to one another in less hostile, generalizing ways then we do from time to time on the forum. The thing is, we are talking about and dealing with a cult here. One led by a guru who has people surrender their rational thought and judgement to the devotion of HIM. They surrender themselves, their time and money, etc. It has the potential to be dangerous to the follower and the follower's families and friends. I, for one, think that we should call a spade a spade. (M= fraud) If this includes discussing the irrational behavior of people brought on by a cult (leaving one's family, committing suicide, giving away all one's money and possessions, meditating all day, working to raise money for an airplane, guarding a piece of cheese, etc. etc.) I for one think this is valid. There is truth in these experiences! ( I know that Sir David isn't a 'mindless robot' but he DID guard a PIECE OF CHEESE all day!) The 'us and them' mentality to which you are referring only applies in my mind to the subject at hand which is discussion about Maharaji. CD and I like a lot of the same books and some of the same hobbies (guitars, computers, etc.) As humans we have things in common, but we are NEVER going to agree about Maharaji (unless he begins to see things my way, of course-ha!ha! Don't worry CD, I'm not holding my breath.) Since the one thing that the two 'camps' do disagree about is the main subject of this web site, there won't be complete harmony here. Of course you are right, we can be civil and treat each other with respect as fellow humans. Fondly, VP P.S. Who is analyzing their navals? Mine is an inny.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:18:49 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:45:46 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life. I remember one initiator gave satsang about how the root word of fanatic means 'one-pointed on God', and how premies are viewed as fanatics, but that that's a good thing, because being focused on God is good. And how that although premies are viewed as crazy, we shouldn't worry about it, because we know that, although we seem crazy, really we are just crazy for God. I think it was Jagdeo or Padarthanand. I also remember maharaji saying that if you have a problem, put it in your back pocket, and practice knowledge. Brilliant advice. But I really like the time he said that not even a leaf on a tree shakes without guru maharaji's grace. No Aesop, I'm not clinically paranoid, and I'm not generalizing and attempting to speak for other people's experiences. But I know the culture of maharaji, and I know what happened because I listened very closely and I was very devoted. Knowledge and maharaji were everything to me, and many others. And the process wreaked havoc on a lot of people, who I listened to, night after night, sweating it out that they just weren't doing good enough. People who were very dysfunctional and being encouraged by maharaji to stay that way, by practicing satsang, service and meditation. The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:27:33 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life. I remember one initiator gave satsang about how the root word of fanatic means 'one-pointed on God', and how premies are viewed as fanatics, but that that's a good thing, because being focused on God is good. And how that although premies are viewed as crazy, we shouldn't worry about it, because we know that, although we seem crazy, really we are just crazy for God. I think it was Jagdeo or Padarthanand. I also remember maharaji saying that if you have a problem, put it in your back pocket, and practice knowledge. Brilliant advice. But I really like the time he said that not even a leaf on a tree shakes without guru maharaji's grace. No Aesop, I'm not clinically paranoid, and I'm not generalizing and attempting to speak for other people's experiences. But I know the culture of maharaji, and I know what happened because I listened very closely and I was very devoted. Knowledge and maharaji were everything to me, and many others. And the process wreaked havoc on a lot of people, who I listened to, night after night, sweating it out that they just weren't doing good enough. People who were very dysfunctional and being encouraged by maharaji to stay that way, by practicing satsang, service and meditation. The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Careful, you are constantly making reference to me being programmed, brainwashed, etc. The premies I know are not mindless automotons. They are thinking, caring, feeling human beings with all the same faults as you and me. I go back to John K.'s statement that there are generalizations being made. You, by virtue of these kinds of statements, only perpetuate this artificial rift between two groups of human beings. Seems you don't care much about that. Your experience with K seems very bizarre to me. Mine was COMPLETELY different. Yes there were circumstances that you squirmed in. Yes there were people who went on about stuff that was off the wall. But there was also peace, truth, and a wonderful simple experience within that, once you went past the 'sweating' bits, was there in spades. BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:33:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: VP
Subject: M=M (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
You guys keep calling M a fraud. So who is the 'real McCoy', then?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:40:28 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life. I remember one initiator gave satsang about how the root word of fanatic means 'one-pointed on God', and how premies are viewed as fanatics, but that that's a good thing, because being focused on God is good. And how that although premies are viewed as crazy, we shouldn't worry about it, because we know that, although we seem crazy, really we are just crazy for God. I think it was Jagdeo or Padarthanand. I also remember maharaji saying that if you have a problem, put it in your back pocket, and practice knowledge. Brilliant advice. But I really like the time he said that not even a leaf on a tree shakes without guru maharaji's grace. No Aesop, I'm not clinically paranoid, and I'm not generalizing and attempting to speak for other people's experiences. But I know the culture of maharaji, and I know what happened because I listened very closely and I was very devoted. Knowledge and maharaji were everything to me, and many others. And the process wreaked havoc on a lot of people, who I listened to, night after night, sweating it out that they just weren't doing good enough. People who were very dysfunctional and being encouraged by maharaji to stay that way, by practicing satsang, service and meditation. The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Careful, you are constantly making reference to me being programmed, brainwashed, etc. The premies I know are not mindless automotons. They are thinking, caring, feeling human beings with all the same faults as you and me. I go back to John K.'s statement that there are generalizations being made. You, by virtue of these kinds of statements, only perpetuate this artificial rift between two groups of human beings. Seems you don't care much about that. Your experience with K seems very bizarre to me. Mine was COMPLETELY different. Yes there were circumstances that you squirmed in. Yes there were people who went on about stuff that was off the wall. But there was also peace, truth, and a wonderful simple experience within that, once you went past the 'sweating' bits, was there in spades. BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess. Here we go again. Your BTW comment was just another gross generalization. I was not even a premie. I lost someone I loved to this cult and I see the need for truth to be told about what has gone on and what is going on.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:46:34 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re:M=M (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
You guys keep calling M a fraud. So who is the 'real McCoy', then? Who says there has to be a 'real McCoy?' Who says I'm supposed to know the answer to this question? This argument doesn't disprove my original statment.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:19:29 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Here are some common generalizations or stereotypes that surface from time to time on the forum: 1. Premies are mindless robots, stuck in front of a video, eyes glued wide open, repeating endlessly to themselves 'He is so beautiful!'. 2. Ex's are stuck in the hot, dry desert (near a train track now overgrown with weeds) analyzing their navals and screaming 'It's all a pack of lies!' Somewhere between these two extreme views of our lives is the truth. We all probably spend our lives similarly. We hold jobs, raise families, pay bills, laugh, cry, have fun, get bored, etc. Is there much of a difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train? When I jumped off the train there was a huge difference, because I was living in the ashram. But now there are no ashrams, from what I hear there's hardly even communities. So really what is the difference between us? I don't attach a personal form to God, like Jesus or the guru. Premies do. I am sure there must be more of a difference, but what am I missing? I never lived in the ashram but the difference in truly being extricated from maharaji is substantial. Part of practicing knowledge was trying to suppress emotions and feeling guilty for having them. It was painful to try to rid myself of anger and fear and sadness, and the lack of acceptance for these feelings made me hate myself. The programming made me think that maharaji was somehow pulling the strings in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life. I remember one initiator gave satsang about how the root word of fanatic means 'one-pointed on God', and how premies are viewed as fanatics, but that that's a good thing, because being focused on God is good. And how that although premies are viewed as crazy, we shouldn't worry about it, because we know that, although we seem crazy, really we are just crazy for God. I think it was Jagdeo or Padarthanand. I also remember maharaji saying that if you have a problem, put it in your back pocket, and practice knowledge. Brilliant advice. But I really like the time he said that not even a leaf on a tree shakes without guru maharaji's grace. No Aesop, I'm not clinically paranoid, and I'm not generalizing and attempting to speak for other people's experiences. But I know the culture of maharaji, and I know what happened because I listened very closely and I was very devoted. Knowledge and maharaji were everything to me, and many others. And the process wreaked havoc on a lot of people, who I listened to, night after night, sweating it out that they just weren't doing good enough. People who were very dysfunctional and being encouraged by maharaji to stay that way, by practicing satsang, service and meditation. The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Careful, you are constantly making reference to me being programmed, brainwashed, etc. The premies I know are not mindless automotons. They are thinking, caring, feeling human beings with all the same faults as you and me. I go back to John K.'s statement that there are generalizations being made. You, by virtue of these kinds of statements, only perpetuate this artificial rift between two groups of human beings. Seems you don't care much about that. Your experience with K seems very bizarre to me. Mine was COMPLETELY different. Yes there were circumstances that you squirmed in. Yes there were people who went on about stuff that was off the wall. But there was also peace, truth, and a wonderful simple experience within that, once you went past the 'sweating' bits, was there in spades. BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess. Here we go again. Your BTW comment was just another gross generalization. I was not even a premie. I lost someone I loved to this cult and I see the need for truth to be told about what has gone on and what is going on. If you were never a premie then what truth can you possibly add to this discussion? When you say you lost somebody you loved to the cult, what happened? Did they disappear? Did they get kidnapped? Or did they just choose to pursue something that, for whatever reason, was relevant to them? If they were lost to you they may not be lost to themself. Who are you to answer that question? Sorry VP but by virtue of your lack of involvement, the credibilty of your input to the discussion is low.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:30:09 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: M=Fraud (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
>CD and I like a lot of the same books and some of the same hobbies (guitars, computers, etc.) As humans we have things in common, but we are NEVER going to agree about Maharaji (unless he begins to see things my way, of course-ha!ha! Don't worry CD, I'm not holding my breath.) Don't do it - g. It is interesting that M attracted such an interesting crew. Quite an achievement for such a young fellow. The topics that surround him still are a source of controversy to this day. Not that much different from what I remember back in 1972. I am not ready to totally surrender to the 'web lifestyle'. Life still is a mystery and wonderful. Peace and fun, CD
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:47:15 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
You obviously have no idea about the level of my involvement. If I thought that you were worthy of it, I'd repeat my journey with DLM which is very credible from a completely different perspective. If you care to widen your horizons, you can look up the archives in January. Otherwise you can stay uninformed and totally ignorant of me. Just don't go making judgements about me without a little more information. The person I loved is dead. All that is in the archives, too. So much for your semantics games.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:01:14 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Off topic-new guitar (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Good to hear from you again, CD! Off topic- I was given beautiful Gibson acoustical, but it is smaller than a full sized. The number on it is B-25N. Know anything about it? Peace and fun to you, too! VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:19:46 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Off topic-new guitar (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Good to hear from you again, CD! Off topic- I was given beautiful Gibson acoustical, but it is smaller than a full sized. The number on it is B-25N. Know anything about it? Peace and fun to you, too! VP No. I had a small bodied Martin when I played the streets in Europe in 72. Those small ones can have a nice trebly tone. Here is something for you: History of Gibson Guitars Remember to be careful when fraternizing with the enemy! 'How do you do I'm doing fine If you're low on happiness Please help yourself to mine' Regards, CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:51:12 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: The Enemy (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
CD, Thanks, I can't wait to read that! Again, you are not the enemy. (We just disagree about a particular topic.) M isn't even the enemy. The enemies are unhappiness, unkindness, injustice, lies, ignorance, greed, deceit, jealousy, etc. Carpe diem, my friend! Wishing you the best, VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:20:57 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: The Enemy (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
CD, Thanks, I can't wait to read that! Again, you are not the enemy. (We just disagree about a particular topic.) M isn't even the enemy. The enemies are unhappiness, unkindness, injustice, lies, ignorance, greed, deceit, jealousy, etc. Carpe diem, my friend! Wishing you the best, VP Agreed!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:56:56 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: The Enemy (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Wow!, this is really good stuff, such warmth coming from both you is really uplifting. Makes me think there is hope for the world after all.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:29:10 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
A Sap: Regarding: BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess. You must be one of those new survey statisticians that are helping MJ out, or is this just a guess? I mean, have you done a comparison of the noses of all ex-premies? And there seem to be quite a few people, like Katie, who aren't out of joint at all. Just interested in some objectivity and information. BTW: How did you end up here, if I might ask? -Wild Goose Bill
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:17:38 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Rick, I may have this all wrong but my impression of mindlessness durning meditation did not include total mindlessness but just a quieting of the mind. Believe it or not this came eaisily to me at 18 when I first was into M and K. Only now that my life is full of parental and financial responsibilities do I understand what everyone was talking about back then about not being able to turn off their thoughts. I always thought of it as shuting out the gibber gabber of the mind which is now pretty constant in me and I find the stresses of life chop away at me and I see the benifit of taking a break from all of that through meditation. I do not now and never have considered M as the Lord of the Universe. If he was he wouldn't be so puffed up about it. That is his mind chattering away in everyone's ears. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:24:15 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Aesop, What you said is not true. I didn't have a bad experience with K and I am here. I continue on my path and although I could benifit still from meditation and can't seem to stick with it. I am interested and care about others who shared the same experience as I have and value the input, the release and the give and take on this unique site. I've learned alot in the short time I've been partaking here already and will continue to. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:29:08 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Aesop, I am shocked by your message to VP that his input is low on the valid list. Who are you to pick and choose who says what to how about anything. This is for open discussion and as I just learned today VP's loss is much more sever than you suggest. Are you a premie now? Where is your compassion? Even if his loss was just as you state what is it of your business to judge him! I FEEL LIKE SCREAMING AT YOU for being so unfeeling!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:41:30 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: M=M (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
You guys keep calling M a fraud. So who is the 'real McCoy', then? Mili, I think it is different for everyone. For me it is the energy that is in every living thing that makes me one with 'God'. I once had an experience while I was driving that made it very hard to continue driving. I 'saw' in my mind's eye I guess you could say, an angel in the sky and this energy was in a form like the jet stream and the angle was flying upside down, with her back to the ground and her head and arms stretched backward and a little shoot of energy came off the 'jet stream' and was connecting to her heart. The thing that made it hard to drive was that I was feeling that physical connection to my heart and had to try very hard to keep my body from taking the same posture as that angel. I guess I am telling that story because I love it but also because it is one of numorous conformations in my life that my belifs are true (for me). Robyn PS. Things aren't always Black and White you know there is mostly grey's out there.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:57:57 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Rick, I may have this all wrong but my impression of mindlessness durning meditation did not include total mindlessness but just a quieting of the mind. Believe it or not this came eaisily to me at 18 when I first was into M and K. Only now that my life is full of parental and financial responsibilities do I understand what everyone was talking about back then about not being able to turn off their thoughts. I always thought of it as shuting out the gibber gabber of the mind which is now pretty constant in me and I find the stresses of life chop away at me and I see the benifit of taking a break from all of that through meditation. I do not now and never have considered M as the Lord of the Universe. If he was he wouldn't be so puffed up about it. That is his mind chattering away in everyone's ears. Robyn Well put, Robyn.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:38:48 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Aesop, I am shocked by your message to VP that his input is low on the valid list. Who are you to pick and choose who says what to how about anything. This is for open discussion and as I just learned today VP's loss is much more sever than you suggest. Are you a premie now? Where is your compassion? Even if his loss was just as you state what is it of your business to judge him! I FEEL LIKE SCREAMING AT YOU for being so unfeeling! Robyn, not knowing VP's circumstances I was indeed insensitive by not acknowledging the gravity of what transpired. I do offer my condolances to him knowing better what happened and appologize for the insensitivity. Having said that I still stick with my point that it's not possible for him to know what K and M is about not having been personally involved. For that reason the validity of his statements about K and M is low. About other things, like the loss of a loved one and grief, he has my undivided acceptance. Robyn, it's natural for VP to view M as suspect. It's natural for him to cling onto anything, like the Guru Papers, that would support the viewpoint that M is responsible in some way. It's natural for him to search for answers. But the emotion of a tragedy does not add credence to opinions drawn third and fourth hand. Again VP, I am very sorry about your loss. I have personally known the pain of loss and I empathize with your grief.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:43:48 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Aesop, What you said is not true. I didn't have a bad experience with K and I am here. I continue on my path and although I could benifit still from meditation and can't seem to stick with it. I am interested and care about others who shared the same experience as I have and value the input, the release and the give and take on this unique site. I've learned alot in the short time I've been partaking here already and will continue to. Robyn Robyn, I stand corrected. Another profile to add to the tapestry. Take care.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:47:06 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
Regarding: >> BTW: How did you end up here, if I might ask? Stumbling around in a china shop and just fell into it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:19:32 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Aesop's de-legitimation of VP (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Robyn: This is really addressed to Aesop and is reposted from a message in a thread above this. I agree with you completely. My message reads: Aesop: Regarding: My point to you still stands VP and I think you'd agree; if you were never involved with Maharaji, you have no valid perspective upon which to judge its merit or lack thereof. I could not disagree more strenuously. There is a long and honored tradition of critiques by 'outsiders' who bring to an analysis a fresh and unbiased perspective. The most influential critique and analysis of the US, for instance, was by Alexis de Tocqueville who had insights into this culture that are still relevant. Another in this tradition is Gunnar Myrdal who, in writing The American Dilemma, set the stage for the Civil Rights movement, and won the Nobel. Although these examples are from political sociology they apply to other social and religious movements as well. Your attempt to de-legitimize VP on the basis that he is not a premie is completely off-the-wall. -Scott
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:37:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
f in everything that happened to me, and deciding my fate based on how well I was practicing knowledge. It was almost a form of paranoia to constantly look over my shoulder and feel judged. Anyone I got to know, seemed like they were snickering at me when they found out what I believed, so I felt like an oddball. I felt obligated to spend all my money going to programs, so I was constantly broke and losing jobs. I couldn't be myself because I was supposed to be unattached to everything; i.e., I wasn't supposed to 'care'. In reality, I was attached to things as much as anyone but I was pretending. I felt terribly guilty for not living in the ashram, and thought I must be weak a full of flaws for not moving in. It was like spasming all the time, trying to constantly meditate and leave no room for doubt (which I was full of), when I was really experiencing being human. The few moments I could manage to experience bliss were hardly worth it, because when I came down I felt all the more frustrated at having lost the 'connection'. I constantly wished I could have had the fortune to be around maharaji, and felt somehow cheated that didn't happen to me. I was married at the time, and neglected my son, in the name of maharaji, Truth and practicing knowledge. I moved to Miami in 1979 with little money and suffered considerably. Thinking that maharaji was going to 'catch' me and make things alright, and then blaming myself when they weren't, caused even more pain. The hardest part was extricating maharaji from my mind as the lord and the cause of all things, and ending my arrogance at thinking I was above non-premies because I had knowledge. Finally getting a good look at myself, warts and all, wasn't easy. Maharaji didn't help a bit. Rick, meaning no disrespect but there are clinically diagnosed paranoids that exhibit similar behavior to what you describe. Not ALL premies experienced what you did and I think you may be generalizing based upon your own set of parameters. I really want to applaude John K.'s post. I agree that there are gross generalizations on both sides. This only serves as yet another justification for divisions amongst people when we are all the same in most aspects of our existence. As for your question John of the 'difference in life before jumping off the gmj train and after jumping off the train?'. I'd say it's variable depending on the level of committment of time and energy prior to the jump, and makeup of the individual. In other words if it was a lot, the change will be more acute. If it was a lot it would most likely be somewhat catestrophic with all the associated feelings of grief, loss, pain, etc. that would exist with any transitional step taken in life. I remember one initiator gave satsang about how the root word of fanatic means 'one-pointed on God', and how premies are viewed as fanatics, but that that's a good thing, because being focused on God is good. And how that although premies are viewed as crazy, we shouldn't worry about it, because we know that, although we seem crazy, really we are just crazy for God. I think it was Jagdeo or Padarthanand. I also remember maharaji saying that if you have a problem, put it in your back pocket, and practice knowledge. Brilliant advice. But I really like the time he said that not even a leaf on a tree shakes without guru maharaji's grace. No Aesop, I'm not clinically paranoid, and I'm not generalizing and attempting to speak for other people's experiences. But I know the culture of maharaji, and I know what happened because I listened very closely and I was very devoted. Knowledge and maharaji were everything to me, and many others. And the process wreaked havoc on a lot of people, who I listened to, night after night, sweating it out that they just weren't doing good enough. People who were very dysfunctional and being encouraged by maharaji to stay that way, by practicing satsang, service and meditation. The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Very well said, Rick. Your experience appears to be very close to mine. I was like you. I was 100% into it, Maharaji was absolutely everything to me. Hence, the 'let down' of the reality that he wasn't deserving of my devotion, is more significant to me. And I would also say, that if you didn't give up much, emotionally, psychologically, materially, to be a premie, you are likely less concerned about it all. If you were never really that 'into' it in the first place, you it would be less of an issue for you. That is only common sense.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:48:20 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Aesop's de-legitimation of VP (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Scott and Robyn, Thank you very much for expressing your opinions to Aesop and I agree with your point about how outsiders have a totally different perspective on things. I really don't consider myself a complete outsider as I have family members who were premies in the 70's (and still are and I understand that they see this site, too!), I attended Satsang, videos, (my sister and I were just laughing today about how we had seen that Holi video so many times we thought we were going to scream if we had to watch it again!) visited ashrams, and even attempted to go through the aspirant process a couple of times. (It was so subversive and incredibly inaccessible -my experience- that I did not continue) I have to say that when I hear some people talk about living in the ashrams and doing service, I AM an outsider on this. I did receive K-via the internet and given all of the Satsang, videos, and other forms of proselytizing that I have recieved for 25 years prior to this (I even had a subscription to 'And It Is Divine' given to me by a family member), I consider my physical experiences with K and my psychological experiences with M to be every bit as REAL as Aesop's. Experiences can be different and still be valid. (He is entitled to his own opinion, of course.) Of course, I never surrendered to M or kissed the Holy Lotus feet in the Darshan line (though this was described to me in great detail many times) I would say this is a major distinction, except I have heard other premies and exs on here say that they never bought into that either. I do not connect the physical experience of K to the grace of M. According to Katie these same techniques are available from another source anyway. Thanks again. Sincerely, VP For Aesop: I am not 'clinging to ' The Guru Papers, I just thought it was a very interesting and worthwhile book. It makes some very good points that have nothing to do with M, as well. It's a good read. I get the point that you strongly disagree with me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:49:00 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Careful, you are constantly making reference to me being programmed, brainwashed, etc. The premies I know are not mindless automotons. They are thinking, caring, feeling human beings with all the same faults as you and me. I go back to John K.'s statement that there are generalizations being made. You, by virtue of these kinds of statements, only perpetuate this artificial rift between two groups of human beings. Seems you don't care much about that. Your experience with K seems very bizarre to me. Mine was COMPLETELY different. Yes there were circumstances that you squirmed in. Yes there were people who went on about stuff that was off the wall. But there was also peace, truth, and a wonderful simple experience within that, once you went past the 'sweating' bits, was there in spades. BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess. Well, Aesop it's a little condescending (again) to talk about clinical paranoia when referring to Rick's experience. And I'm glad your experience was better. I don't frankly know if ALL premies are brainwashed and programmed. But,I know I was programmed, although I can't speak for anyone else. And I know a bunch of other ex-premies who say the same thing. Our experiences may sound bizarre to you, but that doesn't make them any less real. I very much can relate to what Rick has said. They are similar to my own views. And he gives specific examples of the kind of nonsense Maharaji spewed over the years, which I recall as well, that caused much of the problem, nonsense he has yet to take any responsibility for. M was absolutely everything to me, as well. But there you go again: I don't know of any ex-premies who HAVEN'T gotten on with their lives. I know I have. Some talk about what a fraud M is and some don't. It's a very individual thing. And whether I or others have their 'noses out of joint' is something you are not in a position to know. I will say, that those ex-premies who gave up the most, mostly ashram premies, feel more strongly about the issue. However, I could just as easily say you have your 'nose out of joint' because some ex-premies express views on your guru different from yours. If you are so happy with you Maharaji experience, why do you care?
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:51:53 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: X=P-M
Message:
The fact is that many premies don't know what they are experiencing until they leave maharaji, because they are brainwashed into believing there are two forces in the world; maharaji and the mind. Included in the mind are emotions, thoughts, opinions, and doubts(about one half of what makes up a human being). The world of maharaji is 'that bliss within inside', and constant dribblings about 'this life'. By the way, what other life is there than 'this life'? Premies are programmed to disavow the world of 'mind' and thus, in a way, they do become psychotic. But no, they wouldn't acknowledge that, because like you, they are programmed to think they have hit the gold mine. Talk to any ex-premie who was very devoted at one time to maharaji, and you'll probably find someone who's seen the dark side of a pit. Careful, you are constantly making reference to me being programmed, brainwashed, etc. The premies I know are not mindless automotons. They are thinking, caring, feeling human beings with all the same faults as you and me. I go back to John K.'s statement that there are generalizations being made. You, by virtue of these kinds of statements, only perpetuate this artificial rift between two groups of human beings. Seems you don't care much about that. Your experience with K seems very bizarre to me. Mine was COMPLETELY different. Yes there were circumstances that you squirmed in. Yes there were people who went on about stuff that was off the wall. But there was also peace, truth, and a wonderful simple experience within that, once you went past the 'sweating' bits, was there in spades. BTW: there are many ex-premies who just got on with their lives. The ones with their noses most out of joint seem to end up here. Understandable I guess. Well, Aesop it's a little condescending (again) to talk about clinical paranoia when referring to Rick's experience. And I'm glad your experience was better. I don't frankly know if ALL premies are brainwashed and programmed. But,I know I was programmed, although I can't speak for anyone else. And I know a bunch of other ex-premies who say the same thing. Our experiences may sound bizarre to you, but that doesn't make them any less real. I very much can relate to what Rick has said. They are similar to my own views. And he gives specific examples of the kind of nonsense Maharaji spewed over the years, which I recall as well, that caused much of the problem, nonsense he has yet to take any responsibility for. M was absolutely everything to me, as well. But there you go again: I don't know of any ex-premies who HAVEN'T gotten on with their lives. I know I have. Some talk about what a fraud M is and some don't. It's a very individual thing. And whether I or others have their 'noses out of joint' is something you are not in a position to know. I will say, that those ex-premies who gave up the most, mostly ashram premies, feel more strongly about the issue. However, I could just as easily say you have your 'nose out of joint' because some ex-premies express views on your guru different from yours. If you are so happy with you Maharaji experience, why do you care?
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:00:32 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: The Enemy (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Wow!, this is really good stuff, such warmth coming from both you is really uplifting. Makes me think there is hope for the world after all. Steve, There is hope. Optimism rules!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:42:04 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Who says friends are hard to find? (Re: X=P-M)
Message:
Aesop, I am shocked by your message to VP that his input is low on the valid list. Who are you to pick and choose who says what to how about anything. This is for open discussion and as I just learned today VP's loss is much more sever than you suggest. Are you a premie now? Where is your compassion? Even if his loss was just as you state what is it of your business to judge him! I FEEL LIKE SCREAMING AT YOU for being so unfeeling! Robyn, Thanks for that! Katie is right, it does feel good to have someone stick up for you. I guess I hit a real nerve with this person Aesop somehow. If it makes you feel any better, I have been laughing each time he flames me. When someone doesn't know me or my experiences and they make comments about me, then there is no reason for these comments to hurt me. I just consider the source.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 03:57:57 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: Bounced Mail...
Message:
Hi Joy, I just tried to send you an email message and it bounced. Are you 'Bluebirdd@aol.com' Sorry, to use forum bandwidth for this post. -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:07:57 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Bounced Mail...
Message:
Hi Joy, I received your email, I then sent you another reply and promptly had it bounce again. I sent a message to the postmaster at aol.com. But, if you have some way of checking, that would be cool. So at this point the pony express is only traveling in one direction. :) -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:36:09 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Bounced Mail...
Message:
Gumby, try again, I did a thing called 'Set Mail Flag' which sort of resets the mailbox. Maybe we're just not meant to talk! Divine intervention? (Just kidding!)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:03:54 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Bounced Mail...
Message:
Hi Joy, I did try again. No luck. Are you getting mail from anybody outside of aol.com? I'll try again tommorrow. GAGBWY -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 03:48:20 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Premies...(Mili,CD...)
Subject: Test Truth
Message:
Hi there, (Mili, CD, others?) Have you ever wondered what it would be like to keep going to the same grades in school? Repeating grades 1-12 over and over again. Or maybe more like repeating the first grade, over and over and over again? (Sort of like the movie: Ground Hog Day). Oh, how well would I know the first grade. I have a question for any currently practising premie. (Preferably ones who have been following m for a long time). Have you ever asked yourself these questions (BE HONEST, IF YOU LIE TO YOUSELF, YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF, BESIDES, THERE ARE NO GRADES IN THE FIRST GRADE): 1) What am I learning from this journey? 2) I have been involved with m for x years, do I have x years of growth to show for myself? 3) What are/have been my fruits for others? 4) Am I living Love, or am I struggling with the same issues I was x years ago? I have personally found that the best teachers I have had in my life are the ones that are the most happy when the student has surpassed him/her. Unfortunately, I believe m is a teacher that would like to see all students remain in the first grade. But, Oh how well do I know the first grade! Grace and God be with you -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 05:37:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
What's with you 'gumby'? Are you having problems trying to convert ex-premies, so now you are turning to practicing premies? Spare me of the treatment, please.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 11:48:16 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
What's with you 'gumby'? Are you having problems trying to convert ex-premies, so now you are turning to practicing premies? Spare me of the treatment, please. Hi Milli, I didn't realize I was trying to convert you. I thought I just was asking some simple questions. Questions that would be reasonable for ANYONE to ponder. Which question of mine has the secret 'conversion' message encrypted in it? However, I will honor your request to not direct any posts directly at YOU. :) HERE are two other questions for ANYONE ELSE who wants to ponder. 1a) What is most important to me in my life? 2a) Where do I derive my self worth from? I've struggled alot with these questions. Grace and God be with you -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 12:04:16 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
This thread is like hanging out in an airport, like L.A., where all these religious and cult groups are harassing you with their rap!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:34:43 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
This thread is like hanging out in an airport, like L.A., where all these religious and cult groups are harassing you with their rap! Hi John, Did DLM, et al ever hang at the airports? I can sort of imagine the little fella riding around in one of those hospitality carts. Speeding along, maybe trying to mow down an old lady or two. Ahh, thats really bad of me to say. :) John I thought this forum is about discussing the effects, and the experiences of a cult. I believe that all of us have a desire to be in union with God. That is one of the main reasons cults thrive. They appear to meet that need. But as you could probably testify, that need is *not* really met with a cult. It can't be, because cults are not Truth based. So what is wrong with asking questions that will allow ourselves to ponder? Grace and God be with you brother. -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:46:47 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Gumby, I have tried asking some simple questions of premies here, too and I received NO answers to my posts.(Not even any rebukes) Good luck getting the proverbial 'blood out of that rock.' To respond to your test, the point about the good teacher being happy when the student surpasses him is right on the money. I doubt that many gurus are happy when their followers grow to the point of no longer needing them. It is bad for buisness.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:58:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
What's with you 'gumby'? Are you having problems trying to convert ex-premies, so now you are turning to practicing premies? Spare me of the treatment, please. Hi Milli, I didn't realize I was trying to convert you. I thought I just was asking some simple questions. Questions that would be reasonable for ANYONE to ponder. Which question of mine has the secret 'conversion' message encrypted in it? However, I will honor your request to not direct any posts directly at YOU. :) HERE are two other questions for ANYONE ELSE who wants to ponder. 1a) What is most important to me in my life? 2a) Where do I derive my self worth from? I've struggled alot with these questions. Grace and God be with you -gumby Gumby, Sorry for being rash in my last post. I am overloaded with work here, and I just sneak out on the Internet from time to time to read this stuff. The thing is, I generally feel pretty content and at peace with myself (I really do - I am not bullshitting you!), and if I felt the need to ask myself any serious questions I would be doing it myself first. I just don't feel that there are any stones in my life that should be turned over. As a matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside feels well lubricated and running smoothly. Things make sense to me, without having to be explained to me by someone else. I understand stuff. I feel able-bodied and able-minded and I devote all my energies to the task at hand with no blocks or hindrances. Then, at times, I am just drawn deep, deep within to a secret place where amazing and empowering things happen. I think you are a well-meaning person, but it just doesn't rub off well on me with this biased 'anti-cult' thing of yours. Could it be that you are maybe, a little bit, riddled by prejudice? Why not leave a possibility open that there might be a very real and practical reason why some people are ga-ga about Mji? Maybe it's not a matter of him trying to get people to follow him - maybe it's the other way around, people feeling a real need for what he has to offer, and him simply responding to that need. He certainly has a pretty hectic schedule. Give it some thought.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:13:36 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
< I just don't feel that there are any stones in my life that should be turned over. As a matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside feels well lubricated and running smoothly. Well, why don't we turn this stone over, Mili. Why did you try to shut down the newsgroup, alt.cult.maharaji? And having attempted that, how can you, in good conscience, post on this site?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:22:17 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi there, (Mili, CD, others?) Have you ever wondered what it would be like to keep going to the same grades in school? Repeating grades 1-12 over and over again. Or maybe more like repeating the first grade, over and over and over again? (Sort of like the movie: Ground Hog Day). Oh, how well would I know the first grade. I have a question for any currently practising premie. (Preferably ones who have been following m for a long time). Have you ever asked yourself these questions (BE HONEST, IF YOU LIE TO YOUSELF, YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF, BESIDES, THERE ARE NO GRADES IN THE FIRST GRADE): 1) What am I learning from this journey? 2) I have been involved with m for x years, do I have x years of growth to show for myself? 3) What are/have been my fruits for others? 4) Am I living Love, or am I struggling with the same issues I was x years ago? I have personally found that the best teachers I have had in my life are the ones that are the most happy when the student has surpassed him/her. Unfortunately, I believe m is a teacher that would like to see all students remain in the first grade. But, Oh how well do I know the first grade! Grace and God be with you -gumby When the content of a lesson is finite, the teacher looks for the student to master the finite and use it as a tool, to move beyond the current lesson and the current teacher. The infinite lesson, in traditional education, could be described as seeking curiosity within oneself and using tools to fulfill that curiosity. This infinite lesson for the intellectual student is a beautiful process, again in traditional education. From my perspective, Knowledge...this infinite lesson in spiritual education, is based on curiosity for the aspirant, but it is based on love for the premie. It's like the intellectual student stays in the aspirant stage. The spiritual student moves to an affinity for love. The tools to master are the techniques of Knowledge. That's the easy part; now for the growth, the fruits. Growth in love? When Knowledge is practiced from sincerity, the capacity for love increases. The affinity for love increases. My growth is directly proportional to my sincerity, my time commitment, my desire. For reasons no ex-premie will ever understand, Maharaji's presence, his instruction, primes me for this growth in love. It is only through a love relationship with him that I grow spiritually. You wanted an answer from a premie. Now you have to contend with that slippery part where I say a love relationship with Maharaji 'primes' me for spiritual growth in love. Good luck Gumby.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:25:57 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Student
Subject: Off Subject-identity of student (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
Student, You wouldn't happen to be a chiropractor, would you?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:47:11 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi there, (Mili, CD, others?) Have you ever wondered what it would be like to keep going to the same grades in school? Repeating grades 1-12 over and over again. Or maybe more like repeating the first grade, over and over and over again? (Sort of like the movie: Ground Hog Day). Oh, how well would I know the first grade. I have a question for any currently practising premie. (Preferably ones who have been following m for a long time). Have you ever asked yourself these questions (BE HONEST, IF YOU LIE TO YOUSELF, YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF, BESIDES, THERE ARE NO GRADES IN THE FIRST GRADE): 1) What am I learning from this journey? 2) I have been involved with m for x years, do I have x years of growth to show for myself? 3) What are/have been my fruits for others? 4) Am I living Love, or am I struggling with the same issues I was x years ago? I have personally found that the best teachers I have had in my life are the ones that are the most happy when the student has surpassed him/her. Unfortunately, I believe m is a teacher that would like to see all students remain in the first grade. But, Oh how well do I know the first grade! Grace and God be with you -gumby When the content of a lesson is finite, the teacher looks for the student to master the finite and use it as a tool, to move beyond the current lesson and the current teacher. The infinite lesson, in traditional education, could be described as seeking curiosity within oneself and using tools to fulfill that curiosity. This infinite lesson for the intellectual student is a beautiful process, again in traditional education. From my perspective, Knowledge...this infinite lesson in spiritual education, is based on curiosity for the aspirant, but it is based on love for the premie. It's like the intellectual student stays in the aspirant stage. The spiritual student moves to an affinity for love. The tools to master are the techniques of Knowledge. That's the easy part; now for the growth, the fruits. Growth in love? When Knowledge is practiced from sincerity, the capacity for love increases. The affinity for love increases. My growth is directly proportional to my sincerity, my time commitment, my desire. For reasons no ex-premie will ever understand, Maharaji's presence, his instruction, primes me for this growth in love. It is only through a love relationship with him that I grow spiritually. You wanted an answer from a premie. Now you have to contend with that slippery part where I say a love relationship with Maharaji 'primes' me for spiritual growth in love. Good luck Gumby. Dear Student, I am an ex-premie but had a somewhat similar experience while consistantly practicing K. I could actualy feel love pouring out from my eyes. As I have stated before I never really got caught up in the living lord thing so then how do you explain my experiencing such astounding results. I believe that god and the devil are energies not people possible imbodied from time to time in human form but not necessarily and definitely not necessary for a person to experience the benifits of meditation which to me just proved the power/ability everyone has to tap into that god within. I am happy for you if you are happy but how can you live with the fact that M has manipulated people and instructed them to give him their money and lives and hurting so many a prime example I've read here is the 707 that people abandoned their families and lives to work on for free and then he disregards that effort by wanting to get rid of it before they are even done. Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:48:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
< I just don't feel that there are any stones in my life that should be turned over. As a matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside feels well lubricated and running smoothly. Well, why don't we turn this stone over, Mili. Why did you try to shut down the newsgroup, alt.cult.maharaji? And having attempted that, how can you, in good conscience, post on this site? The answer to your question is simple, Rick. If you were born a black man in America, wouldn't you try to shut down a newsgroup called alt.niggers? If you didn't succeed, then at least you would have a clear conscience that you gave it a decent try. Get it?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:20:05 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
< I just don't feel that there are any stones in my life that should be turned over. As a matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside feels well lubricated and running smoothly. Well, why don't we turn this stone over, Mili. Why did you try to shut down the newsgroup, alt.cult.maharaji? And having attempted that, how can you, in good conscience, post on this site? The answer to your question is simple, Rick. If you were born a black man in America, wouldn't you try to shut down a newsgroup called alt.niggers? If you didn't succeed, then at least you would have a clear conscience that you gave it a decent try. Get it? Racism is the belief that one or more races are inferior. People have been enslaved, beaten, killed, economically deprived, etc. etc. Here we have a group of people that used to follow a guru and now write about their experiences, thoughts and current beliefs. There is no belief that anyone is inferior. Perhaps you didn't have time to think that analogy through. I do that often myself. It is not a credible analogy. What I was asking was how you can post on this site, which is an extension of alt.cult.maharaji, when you tried to shut the newsgroup down? It is hypocritical. I assume you are angry that people are saying things about maharaji that you don't think are true. Understandable... we all would have felt that way when we were premies. I don't know if you attempted shut down alt.cult.maharaji because you were angry or also because you perceived a threat. If you really know your guru and his knowledge to be true, you wouldn't have done that. You would know that people who are incorrect aren't a threat, and you would realize that such an attempt would only make maharaji's critics more credible. Perhaps you acted rashly and made a mistake. It isn't too late to admit it and apologize.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:30:53 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Milli, Given that you have replied to me, I guess its ok to return the courtesy. :) You wrote: > Gumby, > Sorry for being rash in my last post. I am overloaded > with work here, and I just sneak out on the > Internet from time to time to read this stuff. Sounds like it is a big effort. I appreciate your taking the time to contribute. > The thing is, I generally feel pretty content and at peace > with myself (I really do - I am not > bullshitting you!), and if I felt the need to ask myself > any serious questions I would be doing it > myself first. It is great that you feel content and at peace with yourself. If you don't need to ask yourself any questions then don't. In my experience, I have found that I know so little, that having friends challenge me and cause me to look at myself, the world around me, etc, has been beneficial. Also, I believe that Truth stands on its own. It survives scrutiny, and critisism. > I just don't feel that there are any stones > in my life that should be turned over. As a > matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside > feels well lubricated and running smoothly. That is also great, And Milli, you know what is going on inside you, I don't. If you are not being true to yourself, it is not me that will bear the consequences. > Things make sense to me, without having to be explained to > me by someone else. What about sharing experiences, and being open to challenging each other? If things make sense to you why not share in all your wisdom? > I understand > stuff. I feel able-bodied and able-minded and I devote > all my energies to the task at hand with no > blocks or hindrances. Milli, I getting the impression that you are darn near perfect? > Then, at times, I am just drawn > deep, deep within to a secret place where > amazing and empowering things happen. I don't have any doubts that your internal secret place is amazing. Thats great, mine is also. But is that all there is to life? > I think you are a well-meaning person, but it just doesn't > rub off well on me with this biased > 'anti-cult' thing of yours. Milli, listen to what you just said. In your opening comment, you said you are content and at peace. Now I pushed some button that is not rubbing well with you. The 'anti-cult' thing is based on my testing reality. If there is Truth in it, it will certainly survive anything I could ever throw at it. I am 'biased', because I have experienced too much of its reality. If I am a recovering alcoholic, I'd better be very 'biased' against drink. > Could it be that you are > maybe, a little bit, riddled by prejudice? Why not > leave a possibility open that there might be a very real > and practical reason why some people are > ga-ga about Mji? Milli, I, with an open heart went and experienced m's message for about six months. I did it. I had a sincere desire to hear his story. When was the last time YOU allowed yourself to be open to anything outside of m's doctrine? Yes, there are very practical reasons why people are gaga over m. The need for feeling wanted. The internal physiological feelings of bliss. The ego thinking that this secret thing is for special people, and hey I know it, wow I'm special. etc, etc, .. (You are special, Milli,because you are a gift of God. Not because you know secret knowledge techniques. > Maybe it's not a matter of him trying to > get people to follow him - maybe it's the > other way around, people feeling a real need for what he > has to offer, and him simply responding > to that need. We all have different ways of looking at the world. I would say that IF m was so interested in sharing k with the world for the betterment of peoplekind, THEN his actions would be quit different. Ie, not make k secret, Not be so deceiving in his presentations, etc. It does matter that I walk my talk. I feel qualified to make these observations because I walked in the aspirant's shoes for a period of time. > He certainly has a pretty hectic schedule. > Give it some thought. I did. Mill, I like you. I wish the best for you. I will pray for you. Grace and God be with you. -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 16:37:23 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi there, (Mili, CD, others?) Have you ever wondered what it would be like to keep going to the same grades in school? Repeating grades 1-12 over and over again. Or maybe more like repeating the first grade, over and over and over again? (Sort of like the movie: Ground Hog Day). Oh, how well would I know the first grade. I have a question for any currently practising premie. (Preferably ones who have been following m for a long time). Have you ever asked yourself these questions (BE HONEST, IF YOU LIE TO YOUSELF, YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF, BESIDES, THERE ARE NO GRADES IN THE FIRST GRADE): 1) What am I learning from this journey? 2) I have been involved with m for x years, do I have x years of growth to show for myself? 3) What are/have been my fruits for others? 4) Am I living Love, or am I struggling with the same issues I was x years ago? I have personally found that the best teachers I have had in my life are the ones that are the most happy when the student has surpassed him/her. Unfortunately, I believe m is a teacher that would like to see all students remain in the first grade. But, Oh how well do I know the first grade! Grace and God be with you -gumby When the content of a lesson is finite, the teacher looks for the student to master the finite and use it as a tool, to move beyond the current lesson and the current teacher. The infinite lesson, in traditional education, could be described as seeking curiosity within oneself and using tools to fulfill that curiosity. This infinite lesson for the intellectual student is a beautiful process, again in traditional education. From my perspective, Knowledge...this infinite lesson in spiritual education, is based on curiosity for the aspirant, but it is based on love for the premie. It's like the intellectual student stays in the aspirant stage. The spiritual student moves to an affinity for love. The tools to master are the techniques of Knowledge. That's the easy part; now for the growth, the fruits. Growth in love? When Knowledge is practiced from sincerity, the capacity for love increases. The affinity for love increases. My growth is directly proportional to my sincerity, my time commitment, my desire. For reasons no ex-premie will ever understand, Maharaji's presence, his instruction, primes me for this growth in love. It is only through a love relationship with him that I grow spiritually. You wanted an answer from a premie. Now you have to contend with that slippery part where I say a love relationship with Maharaji 'primes' me for spiritual growth in love. Good luck Gumby. Dear Student, I am an ex-premie but had a somewhat similar experience while consistantly practicing K. I could actualy feel love pouring out from my eyes. As I have stated before I never really got caught up in the living lord thing so then how do you explain my experiencing such astounding results. I believe that god and the devil are energies not people possible imbodied from time to time in human form but not necessarily and definitely not necessary for a person to experience the benifits of meditation which to me just proved the power/ability everyone has to tap into that god within. I am happy for you if you are happy but how can you live with the fact that M has manipulated people and instructed them to give him their money and lives and hurting so many a prime example I've read here is the 707 that people abandoned their families and lives to work on for free and then he disregards that effort by wanting to get rid of it before they are even done. Robyn I hope your astounding results never end. If your growth continues without Maharaji, who am I to argue? Money and service from premies to Maharaji are resources for him to use as he decides. When you receive a gift, even if it is not what you need, you probably express gratitude, but you are not committed to use it when you need something else. Since another person's gratitude is immeasurable, it is a waste of energy to question how grateful Maharaji was. Anyone who does not trust Maharaji in what he offers and cannot surrender concern over his use of resources should never give him anything, and never ask for Knowledge. Trust is easy for people to criticize. When I say I trust Maharaji implicitly to do what is best in making Knowledge more available, I'm wide open to your criticism. Laugh if you must. But if you want an honest answer as to why premies give, it's because Maharaji is doing what is best to make Knowledge available to everyone who wants it. There is no other reason to give. If feelings are hurt and lives are ruined, it's because the money and service given were not gifts, they were payments to Maharaji for him to fit their concepts.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:08:05 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: gumby
Subject: the skin crawls off topic (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
Dear Gumby: The way you sign most of your messages 'Grace and God be with you.' makes my skin crawl! Now, of course I realize that is a problem with ME, not U! But, I think it's quite amazing! These are just words on the screen, you know? but they do carry incredible meaning into my eyes, on to the brain, and then out to the outermost edges of my mere physical body to the very skin itself. That's pretty powerful stuff, huh? Perhaps it's the memories of my repressed and depressed catholic upbringing that those words are putting me in touch with... I realize you have a sincere heart - at least I hope you do - and do mean to carry a 'good' vibe with those words. In my case they create the opposite effect.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:11:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
< I just don't feel that there are any stones in my life that should be turned over. As a matter of fact, there are no stones! Everything inside feels well lubricated and running smoothly. Well, why don't we turn this stone over, Mili. Why did you try to shut down the newsgroup, alt.cult.maharaji? And having attempted that, how can you, in good conscience, post on this site? The answer to your question is simple, Rick. If you were born a black man in America, wouldn't you try to shut down a newsgroup called alt.niggers? If you didn't succeed, then at least you would have a clear conscience that you gave it a decent try. Get it? Racism is the belief that one or more races are inferior. People have been enslaved, beaten, killed, economically deprived, etc. etc. Here we have a group of people that used to follow a guru and now write about their experiences, thoughts and current beliefs. There is no belief that anyone is inferior. Perhaps you didn't have time to think that analogy through. I do that often myself. It is not a credible analogy. What I was asking was how you can post on this site, which is an extension of alt.cult.maharaji, when you tried to shut the newsgroup down? It is hypocritical. I assume you are angry that people are saying things about maharaji that you don't think are true. Understandable... we all would have felt that way when we were premies. I don't know if you attempted shut down alt.cult.maharaji because you were angry or also because you perceived a threat. If you really know your guru and his knowledge to be true, you wouldn't have done that. You would know that people who are incorrect aren't a threat, and you would realize that such an attempt would only make maharaji's critics more credible. Perhaps you acted rashly and made a mistake. It isn't too late to admit it and apologize. Rick, You are right. Black people are born black. Its a hereditary thing. But that does not justify the malignant hatred directed at them Let me tell you something. Yesterday, I was going thru some of my old family stuff that was stored in a rarely-open closet. Among photo albums from the 19th century and folk costumes that my ancestors used to wear, I found a yellow armband that had 'JUDEN' written on it. Guess what it was? It was the armband that my grandmother had to wear at all times during the German occupation and the pro-facist government during WWII. Then there were the letters that my aunt and uncle wrote back home from the concentration camp where they were interned. And then, there was their last letter. Last EVER letter, Rick. So, what does that have to do with 'alt.cult.maharaji'? Well, you see, the way I feel about it is that by setting up that pejorative newsgroup you have taken the liberty to stigmatize and do a great injustice to a LOT of people. Maybe you did it out of fear. Maybe out of ignorance. But, friend, there was no line between premies and ex-premies, or between premies and non-premies. There are no great differences between us, we live similar kinds of lives and lifestyles, and no one is a perfect devotee here. I, for one, certainly am not. In fact, no one even talks about 'premies' anymore. Its an Indian word, and perhaps its still used in India. But, you are the ones who have drawn that line, and the way I see it, you have drawn a circle. And guess who is standing inside that circle? It ain't me, babe.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:14:28 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: Growth in love? When Knowledge is practiced from sincerity, the capacity for love increases. The affinity for love increases. ... apparently without any external manifestation or evidence on the part of the 'realized' practitioner (at least in terms of any kind of love that would make the slightest sense to an unbiased observer). What a convenient mystery... for someone. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:21:36 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: Growth in love? When Knowledge is practiced from sincerity, the capacity for love increases. The affinity for love increases. ... apparently without any external manifestation or evidence on the part of the 'realized' practitioner (at least in terms of any kind of love that would make the slightest sense to an unbiased observer). What a convenient mystery... for someone. -Scott Any observer would be mystified. The practice of Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely personal, extremely individual. Inside. I question myself in what makes me think I could ever help anyone else understand through my explanation. It's like self-vivisection.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:56:33 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: Any observer would be mystified. The practice of Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely personal, extremely individual. Inside. I question myself in what makes me think I could ever help anyone else understand through my explanation. It's like self-vivisection. Two points: 1. I said the mystery was convenient, but not for you... 2. I wrestled with that interpretive dilemma for years. It motivated me to attend art school and to hone my communication skills to somehow be able to tell people about an inner experience that was 'beyond comprehension.' However, it is appropriate to ask yourself how an unbiased observer would judge the 'fruits' of Knowledge because ultimately in order to grow you have to entertain an unbiased perspective yourself. Knowledge under MJ has better fruits than LSD under Tim Leary. Although it might sound harsh most unbiased observers would agree that that's about the best one can say of it, unfortunately. Unless you wish to argue that objectivity and lack of bias have no relevance whatever, these observations have consequences. The fallout, by my estimaton, accrues more to Maharaji than to Knowledge. However, someday I may have to admit that it accrues to both. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:57:29 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Student, You wrote: > Any observer would be mystified. The practice of > Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship > with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely > personal, extremely individual. Inside. I > question myself in what makes me think I could ever help > anyone else understand through my explanation. The very articulation that you are questioning yourself is very good. I believe that the more you try to 'help' anyone understand your explanation, the more you will realize whether it is based on Truth, or deception. Excellent, keep questioning... Grace and God be with you. -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:09:36 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Student, You wrote: > Any observer would be mystified. The practice of > Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship > with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely > personal, extremely individual. Inside. I > question myself in what makes me think I could ever help > anyone else understand through my explanation. The very articulation that you are questioning yourself is very good. I believe that the more you try to 'help' anyone understand your explanation, the more you will realize whether it is based on Truth, or deception. Excellent, keep questioning... Grace and God be with you. -gumby Thank you for your caring. I have no fear in questioning myself or Maharaji in logic. One of my characteristics as a premie, however, is that I always have that 'cult-ish' way out of a logical argument: logic cannot reach Knowledge or love. I allow space in myself for the illogical because therein lies the beauty of my relationship with myself and Maharaji. I imagine you would identify this as the basic deception. I am not deceiving myself, and neither is Maharaji. I also have no fear in letting go of logic for the reward of the experience of Knowledge.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:19:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Student, You wrote: > Any observer would be mystified. The practice of > Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship > with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely > personal, extremely individual. Inside. I > question myself in what makes me think I could ever help > anyone else understand through my explanation. The very articulation that you are questioning yourself is very good. I believe that the more you try to 'help' anyone understand your explanation, the more you will realize whether it is based on Truth, or deception. Excellent, keep questioning... Grace and God be with you. -gumby Thank you for your caring. I have no fear in questioning myself or Maharaji in logic. One of my characteristics as a premie, however, is that I always have that 'cult-ish' way out of a logical argument: logic cannot reach Knowledge or love. I allow space in myself for the illogical because therein lies the beauty of my relationship with myself and Maharaji. I imagine you would identify this as the basic deception. I am not deceiving myself, and neither is Maharaji. I also have no fear in letting go of logic for the reward of the experience of Knowledge. Well, if you look up the etymology of the word 'logic', it comes form 'Logos', a word that has different meanings attached to it. It first arose in Greece, and Aristotle was the champion of logic. His thing was to minutely classify the external universe, and he set the standard for the science of logic - the bureaucracy of the mind. Feelings, experiences and perceptions are subjective, they are not THINGS. They can be analysed logically to a certain extent, but only in retrospect. Experience comes first. Its hard for people to agree about objects, because they have different experiences of objects designated by common names. For instance if I say 'a tall building', I might be thinking of a mosque with a minaret, because that is the tallest building that I ever saw, while you will immediately think of the Empire State Building. So, basically we are not talking about the same thing. It gets even more complicated when you talk about subjective, 'inner' experience.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:27:47 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Student, You wrote: > Any observer would be mystified. The practice of > Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship > with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely > personal, extremely individual. Inside. I > question myself in what makes me think I could ever help > anyone else understand through my explanation. The very articulation that you are questioning yourself is very good. I believe that the more you try to 'help' anyone understand your explanation, the more you will realize whether it is based on Truth, or deception. Excellent, keep questioning... Grace and God be with you. -gumby Thank you for your caring. I have no fear in questioning myself or Maharaji in logic. One of my characteristics as a premie, however, is that I always have that 'cult-ish' way out of a logical argument: logic cannot reach Knowledge or love. I allow space in myself for the illogical because therein lies the beauty of my relationship with myself and Maharaji. I imagine you would identify this as the basic deception. I am not deceiving myself, and neither is Maharaji. I also have no fear in letting go of logic for the reward of the experience of Knowledge. Well, if you look up the etymology of the word 'logic', it comes form 'Logos', a word that has different meanings attached to it. It first arose in Greece, and Aristotle was the champion of logic. His thing was to minutely classify the external universe, and he set the standard for the science of logic - the bureaucracy of the mind. Feelings, experiences and perceptions are subjective, they are not THINGS. They can be analysed logically to a certain extent, but only in retrospect. Experience comes first. Its hard for people to agree about objects, because they have different experiences of objects designated by common names. For instance if I say 'a tall building', I might be thinking of a mosque with a minaret, because that is the tallest building that I ever saw, while you will immediately think of the Empire State Building. So, basically we are not talking about the same thing. It gets even more complicated when you talk about subjective, 'inner' experience. Thanks. Speaking of Aristotle, have you found intelikey? How is it really spelled?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:41:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi Student, You wrote: > Any observer would be mystified. The practice of > Knowledge, spiritual growth, a relationship > with Maharaji...by their very nature are extremely > personal, extremely individual. Inside. I > question myself in what makes me think I could ever help > anyone else understand through my explanation. The very articulation that you are questioning yourself is very good. I believe that the more you try to 'help' anyone understand your explanation, the more you will realize whether it is based on Truth, or deception. Excellent, keep questioning... Grace and God be with you. -gumby Thank you for your caring. I have no fear in questioning myself or Maharaji in logic. One of my characteristics as a premie, however, is that I always have that 'cult-ish' way out of a logical argument: logic cannot reach Knowledge or love. I allow space in myself for the illogical because therein lies the beauty of my relationship with myself and Maharaji. I imagine you would identify this as the basic deception. I am not deceiving myself, and neither is Maharaji. I also have no fear in letting go of logic for the reward of the experience of Knowledge. Well, if you look up the etymology of the word 'logic', it comes form 'Logos', a word that has different meanings attached to it. It first arose in Greece, and Aristotle was the champion of logic. His thing was to minutely classify the external universe, and he set the standard for the science of logic - the bureaucracy of the mind. Feelings, experiences and perceptions are subjective, they are not THINGS. They can be analysed logically to a certain extent, but only in retrospect. Experience comes first. Its hard for people to agree about objects, because they have different experiences of objects designated by common names. For instance if I say 'a tall building', I might be thinking of a mosque with a minaret, because that is the tallest building that I ever saw, while you will immediately think of the Empire State Building. So, basically we are not talking about the same thing. It gets even more complicated when you talk about subjective, 'inner' experience. Thanks. Speaking of Aristotle, have you found intelikey? How is it really spelled? It's spelled entelechy. But what does it mean? - beats me! I'd have to look it up in my philosophical dictionary. Hey, check out Plotinus - do a search on the Web. He is really cool.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 18:46:25 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Mili, you had to bring up the goddamn Nazis?!!! My father, an AirForce Officer during WWII, was a prisoner of war in a land close to you. Perhaps you've been there: Greece. Those bastards tortured and starved him - but they didn't beat the life out him. No, sir. He lived to finish a few of them off. Those dirty bastards - it makes me sick! And what's worse there's still a number of them around today doing the same shit in your world. Nazis! The entire world has suffered in some way from their atrocities. Why did you have to bring up such bad memories? God Bless all those victims.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:30:56 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: the skin crawls off topic (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
John, I use to have similar reactions to such phrases and even still my skin just priks up a bit and I think it is due to my Catholic upbringing also in combination with a less than loving mother (the one who was so very into the Catholic Chruch). A few years ago I made a quantum leap with my mother and since then the reaction is less dramatic. It is that reaction that I've attributed my lesser degree of 'buying into' M to but maybe I'm wrong. Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:56:18 (EST)
Poster: concept
Email: bb
To: Student
Subject: stew (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
The feeling of 'love' is unrelated to your ideas. If I think I love some man, who claims to be god and isn't, I should be proud of this? Is your mom at the programs? we know the devotee thing better than you. We were more into this than you ever were. You don't know maharji. You said 'for reasons no ex will understand..' You might consider your true condition. He hated his own mother and brother. His capacity for love put a wall up between his mom and him for 18 years till she died. Maybe you are programmed?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:48:25 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K and Robyn
Subject: Re: the skin crawls off topic (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
I grew up Jewish and hardly religious at all, but godly greetings make my skin crawl also. It isn't related to maharaji either. I suppose I hold a special contempt for all religions. My reaction is, 'If God wants to grace me and be with me, he can speak for himself. Where does someone get off speaking for God. Is it as though God needs us to wish him on others?' Im sure Gumby means to wish one well. But then, 'I wish you well' says it all.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:49:15 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K and Robyn
Subject: Re: the skin crawls off topic (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
I grew up Jewish and hardly religious at all, but godly greetings make my skin crawl also. It isn't related to maharaji either. I suppose I hold a special contempt for all religions. My reaction is, 'If God wants to grace me and be with me, he can speak for himself. Where does someone get off speaking for God. Is it as though God needs us to wish him on others?' Im sure Gumby means to wish one well. But then, 'I wish you well' says it all.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 23:00:00 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K and Robyn
Subject: Re: the skin crawls off topic (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
I grew up Jewish and hardly religious at all, but godly greetings make my skin crawl also. It isn't related to maharaji either. I suppose I hold a special contempt for all religions. My reaction is, 'If God wants to grace me and be with me, he can speak for himself. Where does someone get off speaking for God. Is it as though God needs us to wish him on others?' Im sure Gumby means to wish one well. But then, 'I wish you well' says it all.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:35:10 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi there, (Mili, CD, others?) Have you ever wondered what it would be like to keep going to the same grades in school? BE HONEST, IF YOU LIE TO YOUSELF, YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF 1) What am I learning from this journey? -gumby No I haven't come to think of it. Have you ever marveled at the same stars in the sky? Or felt the recurring joy of a simple feeling? Strummed an old song? I haven't learned that more attention should be paid to life than to politics and business. I have learned respect for fellow human beings. The fact that we exist is a miracle. Regards, CD Robots get the jobs
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:44:32 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: CD
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Hi CD, Thanks for your response. You wrote: > No I haven't come to think of it. > Have you ever marveled at the same stars in the sky? Yes, I have. I have marveled and gazed and admired the stars, even as they danced across the sky. I used to have a telescope, when I was a kid, and would love to look through it. > Or felt the recurring joy of a simple feeling? > Strummed an old song? Absolutely, each breath I take is a great gift. Life is indeed precious. I don't play any string instruments, but I do enjoy listening to music and sometimes humming a song or two. > I haven't learned that more attention should be paid > to life than to politics and business. I thought I was doing well following you up to this point, but my little peabrain just lost you. Please elucidate the point. > I have learned respect for fellow human beings. > The fact that we exist is a miracle. > Regards, > CD > Robots get the jobs It is awesome that you view life as a miracle. And since you do, I'm sure you must spend some time reflecting on God, afterall if we are here by chance then that wouldn't bemuch of a miracle. CD, do you believe I don't respect you? Your statement is implying that? What do you mean by 'Robots get the jobs'? God amd Grace be with you my friend -gumby reflecting on how God creates these miracles
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:48:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: to John Cavad (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
Mili, you had to bring up the goddamn Nazis?!!! My father, an AirForce Officer during WWII, was a prisoner of war in a land close to you. Perhaps you've been there: Greece. Those bastards tortured and starved him - but they didn't beat the life out him. No, sir. He lived to finish a few of them off. Those dirty bastards - it makes me sick! And what's worse there's still a number of them around today doing the same shit in your world. Nazis! The entire world has suffered in some way from their atrocities. Why did you have to bring up such bad memories? God Bless all those victims. Hi John, Sorry to say, but I've never been to Greece (or to Turkey, for that matter) although it is so close to where I live. Too busy, I suppose! I do have a kind of magical image of the place, all those temples and little islands (quite similar to the ones I know in the Adriatic). Perhaps if I actually went there I would be dissapointed! I seriously want to take a tour someday, and I find Crete especially appealing as a place to spend some time off. I HAVE been to Italy, Spain, Tunisia and even Morocco a long time ago. The Mediterranean is a fascinating area - so much history and so many different cultures and peoples in such a small area and one shining, azure sea connecting them all. - Mili
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 02:30:38 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
CD: Regarding: Robots get the jobs Yes, but do they buy the cars? -Scott
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:36:13 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
>And since you do, I'm sure you must spend some time reflecting on God, afterall if we are here by chance then that wouldn't bemuch of a miracle. Whatever this existance is, it is pretty amazing. I believe that the roots of the major religions was a common experience of the beauty and love to be found in the source of life. The intellectual analysis of those simple truths has resulted in a state of confusion. A curious paradox. It shocks people that I find wisdom in what M has to say but I do. Though his message has had a fundamental similarity through all the years (grades) it does have variety and I continue to benefit. My original post should have been: I have learned that more attention should be paid to life than to politics, business and the daily hustle and bustle. Regards, CD Robots can be our friends
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:48:02 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
CD: Regarding: Robots get the jobs Yes, but do they buy the cars? -Scott Good point! Robots are not allowed to own property. Honestly the economy is a bit of a mess isn't it. We are definitely trapped in the cycle of consumption and production. The benefits that the robots have offered to mankind are not being parceled out evenly. People are really not into a sharing mood until disaster or war strikes. Hatred and bloodshed around the world is rampant. And all this in the midst of the beautiful gift of life. Still, I will cling to optimism and hope and try to do better. Regards, CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 07:51:46 (EST)
Poster: student
Email:
To: concept
Subject: Re: stew (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
The feeling of 'love' is unrelated to your ideas. If I think I love some man, who claims to be god and isn't, I should be proud of this? Is your mom at the programs? we know the devotee thing better than you. We were more into this than you ever were. You don't know maharji. You said 'for reasons no ex will understand..' You might consider your true condition. He hated his own mother and brother. His capacity for love put a wall up between his mom and him for 18 years till she died. Maybe you are programmed? You don't know me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:01:51 (EST)
Poster: student
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
CD: Regarding: Robots get the jobs Yes, but do they buy the cars? -Scott Good point! Robots are not allowed to own property. Honestly the economy is a bit of a mess isn't it. We are definitely trapped in the cycle of consumption and production. The benefits that the robots have offered to mankind are not being parceled out evenly. People are really not into a sharing mood until disaster or war strikes. Hatred and bloodshed around the world is rampant. And all this in the midst of the beautiful gift of life. Still, I will cling to optimism and hope and try to do better. Regards, CD To your optimism and hope you might add faith in natural cycles. Disasters could also be labeled as painful changes. Equilibrium will be established as it has always been in nature. Mankind cannot hold this force back forever. We are a part of that force. Some, not just those of us with Maharaji's Knowledge, are conscious of that. No single person or even small group of people can take credit for bringing about 'painful changes.' Equilibrium will happen.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:59:03 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: No single person or even small group of people can take credit for bringing about 'painful changes.' Equilibrium will happen. The concept that change tends ultimately toward equilibrium or that equilibrium is the compulsion behind change is very conventional. It is, for instance, a vital component of classical economics and of Talcott Parson's 'system' theory of human societies. However, dis-equilibrium seems to be more the rule. Equilibrium may be an untenable state. Classical theories may be flawed in this area. -Scott
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:08:45 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Mili, Circles are good geometric shaps never ending and all encompassing. This is not a place, as I see it, to make divisions between people. It is a unique opportunity for people to share thoughts, emotions and experiences and I wish there was less judging. I admit to already judging people from the numorous posts I've read but I keep them to myself because I know that is a negative part of human nature and can be hurtful. I have responded negativly to at least one posting but what I'm talking about is perseved conclusions drawn about someone's personality or motivations if those things are not spelled out by the person themselves. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:55:55 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: to John Cavad (Re: Test Truth)
Message:
Mili, if you go to Greece you won't be disappointed, unless you go in August, the height of the tourist season. June is a great month to go around the Islands: lots of history (if you like that), great weather, nice people, and a fun time. I went to Delphi and the island of Delos on my last visit (2 out of the 3 Classical cites left). The Ionian Islands are great too, such as Corfu, Ithica, Cephalonia. Santorini is the most unique of the Islands. Crete is full of history and beauty too
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:21:27 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: No single person or even small group of people can take credit for bringing about 'painful changes.' Equilibrium will happen. The concept that change tends ultimately toward equilibrium or that equilibrium is the compulsion behind change is very conventional. It is, for instance, a vital component of classical economics and of Talcott Parson's 'system' theory of human societies. However, dis-equilibrium seems to be more the rule. Equilibrium may be an untenable state. Classical theories may be flawed in this area. -Scott Webster agrees with you. Utopia is defined as imaginary and unattainable. However, if 'society' (a collection of individuals) is to set their sights on some common objective, that objective must be nothing less than Utopia, equilibrium. No compromises. I know, everyone's concept of Utopia is unique. The common ground between individuals that I have faith in is the thirst for Truth. Debating the actual nature of Truth spins (non-experience based) logic into circles. Whether or not Maharaji helps people quench that thirst may be the purpose of this site; but I appreciate this exchange. I'll look into Parson's theories.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Student
Subject: Re: Test Truth
Message:
Student: Regarding: No single person or even small group of people can take credit for bringing about 'painful changes.' Equilibrium will happen. The concept that change tends ultimately toward equilibrium or that equilibrium is the compulsion behind change is very conventional. It is, for instance, a vital component of classical economics and of Talcott Parson's 'system' theory of human societies. However, dis-equilibrium seems to be more the rule. Equilibrium may be an untenable state. Classical theories may be flawed in this area. -Scott Webster agrees with you. Utopia is defined as imaginary and unattainable. However, if 'society' (a collection of individuals) is to set their sights on some common objective, that objective must be nothing less than Utopia, equilibrium. No compromises. I know, everyone's concept of Utopia is unique. The common ground between individuals that I have faith in is the thirst for Truth. Debating the actual nature of Truth spins (non-experience based) logic into circles. Whether or not Maharaji helps people quench that thirst may be the purpose of this site; but I appreciate this exchange. I'll look into Parson's theories. Student: I don't know if I would recommend reading Parsons unless you really want to. It might be an exercise in masochism. He is the premier American sociological theorist, but is incredibly opaque. Some people have likened his writing to gibberish, and there is one famous experiment where a student wrote up some complete nonsense in the Parsonian style and got it accepted in a major journal. The basic idea of his theory is that societal systems have to always be in equilibrium, so attempts to improve on social conditions that upset the equilibrium will fail. Equilibrium in this sense is, of course, relative. R. Buckminster Fuller had some interesting theories about equilibrium as well, including the concept that it actually has a representable geometric shape (the cuboctahedron). He thought of equilibrium as a sort of universal reference point, but that equilibrium is basically untenable in physical systems. A physical equilibrium leads to an unresolvable paradox. Incidentally, I think Bucky gives the best description of the Knowledge experience that I've ever seen, but he clearly had never experienced it himself. He sort of deduced it from first principles. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 01:31:54 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Fleetwood Mac
Message:
I read Mick Fleetwood's book (can't remember the name of it now) and it said that John McVie was a premie (the bass player for Fleetwood Mac). The book said that he was so blissed out and they were having trouble getting him to stay with the band, make performances, etc. (I am not sure of the time frame on this). Apparently they were trying to get him out of the cult with little success. I saw them perform the other night on PBS and that reminded me of this story. Does anyone know whether or not John is still a premie?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 05:55:39 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Fleetwood Mac
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:42:23 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Fleetwood Mac
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs. Jesus, Anon, how do you know that Michael Bolton, the Cat, or even George Harrison won't show up at some future program? Are you psychic, or something? I'll bet you anything that some person called 'Anon' will be there, too.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 09:14:30 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Fleetwood Mac
Message:
I thought Cat Stevens became a Muslim and gave up music all together even in his personal life and what a waste if that is so.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 13:33:14 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: 'famous premies' (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs. I also remember that Michael Nouri (actor from the movie Flashdance) was a premie around this time. He has since been spotted in the 'cigar scene'.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:19:46 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Fleetwood Mac
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs. Jesus, Anon, how do you know that Michael Bolton, the Cat, or even George Harrison won't show up at some future program? Are you psychic, or something? I'll bet you anything that some person called 'Anon' will be there, too. Mili my dear, did I anywhere indicate that I thought they wouldn't attend future programs? Nope. Of course there is always that possibility and I said nothing to the contrary. As a matter of fact I admit that I don't know for sure that they haven't been lately. I just havn't seen them there for a while. Happy now? However it seems to me unlikely that Cat Stephens will be in any great hurry as he is a very dedicated Muslim now (in North London) and very involved in that religion. I too, am not currently inspired to go although I may do at some point.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:23:47 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: 'famous premies' (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs. I also remember that Michael Nouri (actor from the movie Flashdance) was a premie around this time. He has since been spotted in the 'cigar scene'. Well, this discussion has jolted a memory. I remember Michael Nourri too. In 1975 ish there was a meditation retreat at The Cotton Ranch (or something) in Malibu. At dinner I was sitting opposite Pricilla Presley. There must be loads of famous premies out there. Again, I don't know if she got knowledge or not.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:36:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: 'famous premies' (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
John McVie used to very occasionally go to satsang in Larchmont, Hollywood (circa 1975). I don't recall that he actually received knowledge but that may have been the case. Other 'famous' premies from that time were Cat Stephens and Michael Bolton, both who no longer go to programs. I also remember that Michael Nouri (actor from the movie Flashdance) was a premie around this time. He has since been spotted in the 'cigar scene'. Well, this discussion has jolted a memory. I remember Michael Nourri too. In 1975 ish there was a meditation retreat at The Cotton Ranch (or something) in Malibu. At dinner I was sitting opposite Pricilla Presley. There must be loads of famous premies out there. Again, I don't know if she got knowledge or not. Ye God, next thing I will be reading here is that Michael Jackson was a part-time instructor!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 14:44:57 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:03:40 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: 'famous premies' (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
>Well, this discussion has jolted a memory. I remember Michael Nourri too. >In 1975 ish there was a meditation retreat at The Cotton Ranch (or something) in Malibu. Was that the one with the big tennis lesson? Nouri's 'Land of Light' song was quite good. I still know how to play 'Daisies' on the guitar.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 15:08:20 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
>You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock You ought to listen to the really old Bare Trees album with Station Man. CD
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:01:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
John, I agree with you completely. 'Rumours' was the most overplayed album of all time, IMHO. I don't even know if the songs are any good any more because I have heard them so many times. Worse yet, the Adult-Oriented-Rock station that we listen to at work has started playing Fleetwood Mac from their new live album [(?)(or so I assume. I don't really know anything about it because the college kids I work with change the station every time Fleetwood Mac comes on. You can guess why, can't you? ('My mom and dad listen to that crap!')]
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:43:21 (EST)
Poster: JW (on PBS off topic)
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH! And not only that, I noticed that PBS, in an attempt to get baby boomers (now middle aged with money) to donate to public television, they show a geriatric Fleetwood Mac concert and break in the middle to ask for money. But what is WORSE, is they have done the same formula with America (gag), Michael Crawford (gag AND barf), John Tesch (oh,,,my....god, the new Liberace) AND .... YANI!!!!!(gag, barf curl up and die). God, he's awful. Elevator music on steroids.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:47:10 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
[--- snip! ---] the college kids I work with change the station every time Fleetwood Mac comes on. You can guess why, can't you? ('My mom and dad listen to that crap!') A friend and I were sitting in his Cadillac (sp?) waiting for the McDonald's drive-thru. Grand Funk Railroad comes on the radio with 'I'm Your Captain'. We cranked the volume up and enjoyed it. I think if I'd heard it once in the last 5 years, I would've turned the radio knob down. But it was 'I'm Your Captain' and it had been one long time since I heard it played. It was good.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:43:25 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW (on PBS off topic)
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH! And not only that, I noticed that PBS, in an attempt to get baby boomers (now middle aged with money) to donate to public television, they show a geriatric Fleetwood Mac concert and break in the middle to ask for money. But what is WORSE, is they have done the same formula with America (gag), Michael Crawford (gag AND barf), John Tesch (oh,,,my....god, the new Liberace) AND .... YANI!!!!!(gag, barf curl up and die). God, he's awful. Elevator music on steroids. Joe, you're forgetting the Eagles. If I see that concert one more time on PBS, I think they'll have to give it its own channel. And, BTW, I think Priscilla Presley was never a premie, didn't she become a major scientologist instead? Boy, if the thunder don't get ya, then the lightnin' will! (Alright you closet Deadheads out there on the forum, reveal yourselves!)
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:44:32 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH! I gotsta agree wid ya, John; every time I turn on PBS turning pledge week they've got the Moody Blues or Fleetwood Mac or Yawni or some other boring bunch of old farts. However, the other night they DID have a special show with Roy Orbison (Okay, an old fart, but a worthwhile old fart) and he had Elvis Costello and Tom Waits and T-bone Burnette and some other cool people, and it was actually quite enjoyable! Now, once PBS starts showing Radiohead, I'll renew my subscription!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:48:32 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH! I gotsta agree wid ya, John; every time I turn on PBS turning pledge week they've got the Moody Blues or Fleetwood Mac or Yawni or some other boring bunch of old farts. However, the other night they DID have a special show with Roy Orbison (Okay, an old fart, but a worthwhile old fart) and he had Elvis Costello and Tom Waits and T-bone Burnette and some other cool people, and it was actually quite enjoyable! Now, once PBS starts showing Radiohead, I'll renew my subscription!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:57:56 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Joy
Subject: Deadheads vs MacHeads (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
**Warning, the following post may be offensive to all you baby boomer, classic rockers. And really, I could not care less.** You know, I find nothing more repulsive than 'classic rock' and Fleetwood Mac is the ultimate in classic rock. In 1976 I had the time of my life dancing away at a Fleetwood Mac concert. I loved em, listened every day to that white album. That was then, this is now! let's move on folks! Onward and upward, ya know?! So I turn on my tv to PBS the other night, and there they are! Fleetwood Mac - in the flesh (wrinkled) still alive (uhm, I guess) and mellow as ever. I sat there and listened to the keyboardist sing that old familiar tune 'I'm over my head' in her placid, dull, mellow manner and I got numb all over. I swear it reminded me of the feeling I got from watching one of M's videos. the same mellow, peaceful, numb feeling! YUCK! PUKE! AAAARRRRRGHHHH! And not only that, I noticed that PBS, in an attempt to get baby boomers (now middle aged with money) to donate to public television, they show a geriatric Fleetwood Mac concert and break in the middle to ask for money. But what is WORSE, is they have done the same formula with America (gag), Michael Crawford (gag AND barf), John Tesch (oh,,,my....god, the new Liberace) AND .... YANI!!!!!(gag, barf curl up and die). God, he's awful. Elevator music on steroids. Joe, you're forgetting the Eagles. If I see that concert one more time on PBS, I think they'll have to give it its own channel. And, BTW, I think Priscilla Presley was never a premie, didn't she become a major scientologist instead? Boy, if the thunder don't get ya, then the lightnin' will! (Alright you closet Deadheads out there on the forum, reveal yourselves!) Dear Joy - You probably already know about my affection for the Dead. (After your quote, I started filling in the rest of the words to The Wheel in my head.). I think I'm one of the most vocal Dead Heads on the forum (and I've suffered for it too!). The other real Dead Head on here that I know of is bftb. As you know, JW prefers the Spice Girls... As far as I know, you're right about Priscilla Presley and Scientology. Lisa Marie is also into Scientology. What would Elvis think?! P.S. there is at least one closet Fleetwood Mac fan here, too. I'm not sure if this person wants to reveal themselves after all the classic rock bashing, though.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:14:26 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
Yeah, the Orbison thing was brilliant. Bruce Springsteen, Bonnie Raitt, KD Laing, Elvis Costello and more as the BACKUP BAND! But I actually liked the Fleetwood Mac concert (once, not the tenth time), they haven't lost their touch, I was always a big fan of theirs. At least they play songs with melody, unlike these modern-day Pearl Jam types. Gosh, I'm starting to sound like my parents. But of course, nobody holds (or should I say held) a candle to the Dead on a good night, though I'm sure JW has something to say about that. I misread the quote re Priscilla Presley, thinking you were referring to Lisa Marie. Maybe Priscilla did attend satsang, who knows? But for sure it's Lisa Marie who's the scientologist (as is John Travolta, and in the late 60s early 70s the Incredible String band WERE, which was what precipitated my involvement, though I don't think they are any more).
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:33:24 (EST)
Poster: JW -- To Katie and Joy, Oh, Please!
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Deadheads vs MacHeads (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
AAARRRRRGHHHH! And not only that, I noticed that PBS, in an attempt to get baby boomers (now middle aged with money) to donate to public television, they show a geriatric Fleetwood Mac concert and break in the middle to ask for money. But what is WORSE, is they have done the same formula with America (gag), Michael Crawford (gag AND barf), John Tesch (oh,,,my....god, the new Liberace) AND .... YANI!!!!!(gag, barf curl up and die). God, he's awful. Elevator music on steroids. Joe, you're forgetting the Eagles. If I see that concert one more time on PBS, I think they'll have to give it its own channel. And, BTW, I think Priscilla Presley was never a premie, didn't she become a major scientologist instead? Boy, if the thunder don't get ya, then the lightnin' will! (Alright you closet Deadheads out there on the forum, reveal yourselves!) Dear Joy - You probably already know about my affection for the Dead. (After your quote, I started filling in the rest of the words to The Wheel in my head.). I think I'm one of the most vocal Dead Heads on the forum (and I've suffered for it too!). The other real Dead Head on here that I know of is bftb. As you know, JW prefers the Spice Girls... As far as I know, you're right about Priscilla Presley and Scientology. Lisa Marie is also into Scientology. What would Elvis think?! P.S. there is at least one closet Fleetwood Mac fan here, too. I'm not sure if this person wants to reveal themselves after all the classic rock bashing, though. One correction. I have NEVER indicated that I am a fan of The Spice Girls. Personally, I think they have zero musical talent, thank you. Of course, I could never understand what people saw in The Grateful Dead, either, at least after about 1970. I liked American Beauty and Working Man's Dead, but after that, I thought it just became hippie-nostalgia, in my opinion. And I did TRY. Joy, remember you used to drag me to some of the multitude of Dead concerts that happened in San Francisco, but I just didn't get it. Jerry Garcia, bless his soul, simply cannot sing. And then there were those, long, long, long, 'space music' segments. What was THAT about, I mean if you weren't on some serious drugs at the time? And to be fair to PBS at least here in SF, has also run Dead concerts for fundraisers, too. And, you're right, Joy, I think it WAS the Eagles and not America, that I was thinking of. They have run those concerts endlessly, now that I think of it. Now, ahem, have you two heard the new Madonna album? I think it's terrific.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:11:35 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Joy and JW
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
Joy, I like Fleetwood Mac, too. (Especially stuff prior to Rumors). Okay, so they looked pathetic out there on PBS. There is something to be said for people who try to maintain careers in their middle to later years (except for Ronald Reagan, of course!) We can gain a lot of wisdom from the people who actually have some-the elderly. We disregard everything but the new and young in our culture and it is a shame. Fleetwood Mac does need to come up with some creative new material or they will go the way of elevator music! The old stuff was already overplayed the first time around. JW, were you being sarcastic about Madonna or do you really like the album? I haven't heard it yet, but one review said that it deals with matters of spirituality.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:13:44 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Joy and JW
Subject: Re: Mac Bashing! (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
Joy, I like Fleetwood Mac, too. (Especially stuff prior to Rumors). Okay, so they looked pathetic out there on PBS. There is something to be said for people who try to maintain careers in their middle to later years (except for Ronald Reagan, of course!) We can gain a lot of wisdom from the people who actually have some-the elderly. We disregard everything but the new and young in our culture and it is a shame. Fleetwood Mac does need to come up with some creative new material or they will go the way of elevator music! The old stuff was already overplayed the first time around. JW, were you being sarcastic about Madonna or do you really like the album? I haven't heard it yet, but one review said that it deals with matters of spirituality.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW -- To Katie and Joy, Oh, Please!
Subject: Re: Deadheads vs MacHeads (Re: Fleetwood Mac)
Message:
Joe - I distinctly remember you telling Sir David that you liked the Spice Girls. But maybe you just meant that you liked their attitude or whatever... My 8 year old niece is crazy about them, also Hansen. You're on the right track about the Dead's albums, IMHO. Most of them have several great tracks with a bunch of junk added (again, my opinion!), although I really liked 'Wake of the Flood' as well as 'American Beauty' and 'Workingman's Dead'. I never liked the space jams in concerts either, but I thought and still think that Jerry Garcia's voice is wonderful. Plus listening to the Dead really helped me keep my sanity after leaving GMJ and DLM. Can't argue with that, right? P.S. Sorry haven't heard the new Madonna album. All the college girls I work with were REALLY into Madonna in grade school (fingerless lace gloves and the works), so I have trouble taking her seriously.
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