Forum II: Archive 9 Page 5 of 5

I think that imagining myself growing closer to the Creator was the draw, in later life; imagining I was somehow evolving towards a more peaceful soul, by agency of meditation. I held the view that meditation was sitting at the door, patiently; and when I stopped pushing, it would open, and I would go through. I saw this as a recursive feature of meditation; the layers of an onion the most practical model, though an infinite number of them.

They were mostly theories, backed by encouraging, if not entirely subtle, experiences -- I was in fact too lazy and lackidasical (sp?) to have many 'wow!' experiences -- though I've had a few over the years.

I had phobias, and still have some of them, to some extent. I don't like shampooing because I close my eyes in the shower and I'm afraid I wouldn't hear an intruder break into my flat. I feel the same way about music technique; so I never do it for more than 15 minutes when I did it at all. I was actually rather drawn out of myself and into my environment, as a function of sitting down and concentrating on meditation technique! That agrees well with my basic outlook, which seems to be I'm mostly unaware of my immediate surroundings: the room I occupy; the street I walk on; the sky above me. Meditation has a curious way of bringing some awareness of -- go figure -- the world! into my appreciation. More than the internal, perhaps. I find taking a shower or much excercise 'puts me back into my body' when I've been living the day too cerebrally.

I'm on occasion afraid of things that don't exist, such as the devil. This guy in the Air Force used to play head games on me, especially when we were doing chemical warfare training (wearing those awful suits and masks all day long).

I'm sometimes afraid I might follow irrational impulses I get; but I never have. I'm too isolated, socially; I believe that is the primary thing 'wrong' with me -- I spend too much time without responsibility, idle, or alone. Time to get into trouble with an overactive imagination; that seems like what's wrong and the cure is to find ways to engage society, the world, and people. Basically that means getting the hell out of closed quarters and out into the world, be it the business world or the world of recreation, hard work or play -- but away from my own dwelling, where I spend far too much time by myself.

Problem seems to be: I like it. :)

--From the desk of Andonanandji
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 21:13:01 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Continued (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
I want to write about my experience of meditation. I don't think that in the 10 years I followed gmj I ever heard a premie talk about any negative effect of meditation. (Gee, I guess I am writing another 'negative' post. Ah well.) I don't remember ever hearing gmj mention the possibility of a negative effect of meditation. Perhaps I was not paying attention enough? maybe he did. The only thing I remember him saying was that the Mind will come in and try to get you to stop or distract you etc. I am or was a personality type very much suited to meditation. I tried and had experiences with meditation before I met the guru and I meditated A LOT in the 10 years I followed him. At one time I organized a regular all day meditation. About once a month on Sunday I would meditate all day in the community center. Needless to say, it was not a very popular event, very few premies would join me. I had very powerful, very intense experiences. I took very seriously gmj's mockery of premies who would meditate for 'just' one hour. I made a serious effort to push myself past whatever natural limit my mind tried to impose on me. Anyway, I started to have very unpleasant experiences meditating at night. (this happened in Miami Beach when I was very involved in an intense 'service' which allowed very little time for meditating). I would sit down to meditate and I would black out and not remember how long I had been sitting, what I had been doing, etc. It was so unsettling, it made me nauseous actually. The more this happened the more I believed that following my breath and stopping the flow of thoughts was putting me into a place of absolute nothingness where I did not exist and where nothing existed. I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark a bummer!, I see my 'discourse' got cut off...let's see if I can remember what I was saying.... I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark and trying to do the techniques. That in effect I was trying to simply not exist. What was the point? David asks, maybe the blackouts I experienced were simply falling asleep. Yes, probably I did just fall asleep, but the problem was the feeling that I had in coming out of the blackout - it was a feeling of being so disoriented that I felt nauseous. Well, maybe this sounds melodramatic - but my point is that meditating produced an unpleasant, strange, and thoroughly nasty experience. And when the going got tough for me, the guru had nothing to offer in the way of guidance. There was simply no room for anything negative in his explanation of the 'knowledge'. According to him it was all just 'peaches and cream'. Actually, what I now know is that meditation is not some magical activity that defies common sense. It's just like anything else that humans do. It has to be done in moderation or it is counterproductive. The guru will not tell you that though, or at least he did not say that the 10 years I followed him. In reality, when I sat there and tried to do the techniques for a long period of time, wierd unpleasant things happened. I seriously doubt I am the only one who experienced wierd unpleasant feelings. Human beings are not meant to do any one thing in excess. Balance and moderation and common sense were not a part of guru's teachings when I was his student. Of course, the same thing that happened to me in doing too much meditation was true for me in everything I did for the guru. Satsang got to be very strange because we had to do it so much. Service was wierd beyond description. I believe because of the mistaken, perverted, infantile message from the guru that it had to be done all the time. That to stop for a moment was to let 'confusion' in. The whole path was one of excess with no real guidance, just a vanilla simplisitic message from the 'Master'. So saith the humble servant of the Truth.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 21:32:04 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: Continued (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
[-- snip! --] Human beings are not meant to do any one thing in excess. Balance and moderation and common sense were not a part of guru's teachings when I was his student. [-- snip! --] Moderation in all things -- including moderation. :)

I used to stare without blinking during satsang.

Predictably, all sorts of interesting things going on in the visual field (mostly variations in apparent illumination). After some time, I decided on my own that it was more about not blinking and staring steadily, than it was about who was onstage.

A premie woman I knew complained frequently of nausea during meditation, for the first six months or so after receiving Knowledge. One or two premies were obsessed about if Maharaji wanted them to use the left or right hand to do light technique.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 23:15:21 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Continued (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
'I used to stare without blinking during satsang' Ya know, I think I remember you. Did you used to sit right in the middle of the front row and never smile? I remember a guy like that. My goal sometimes in giving satsang was to make that guy crack a smile or blink...I never succeeded. Speaking of tormented experiences, near the end of my tenure as a premie, I had very wierd and unpleasant experiences giving satsang also. It seems like I was always being called on to give satsang, and after giving it I would not be able to remember one word of what I had said. It was very unsettling. The whole experience of experiencing events with no memory of them reminds me of a drug that is given to people who are having medical operations. About 10 years ago my wife had to go to the hospital for an operation. Right before she was to be operated on, the anasthesist (sp?) gave her the drug and told her, 'you will not go to sleep, you wil not pass out, you will simply have no memory of what happened.' So then my wife asks, 'will I be able to feel the pain' He said, 'well, yes, you will feel the pain, but you won't be able to remember it, so it won't hurt you.' He didn't do a very good job of explaining it, because she had a very troubled look on her face and then the drug took over and she was out of it. But afterwards, she did not remember feeling any pain. So did she feel any? Of course not. The lesson is that memory is all we've got as humans. Take it away and what's left?
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 11:45:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Continued (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
Aoa: Regarding: One or two premies were obsessed about if Maharaji wanted them to use the left or right hand to do light technique. And of course one really has to avoid using the 'ascend to ignominy' finger to point at the third eye, with perhaps one's thumb in one's mouth or positioned strategically up one's nose. That would be rude. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 12:51:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I want to write about my experience of meditation. I don't think that in the 10 years I followed gmj I ever heard a premie talk about any negative effect of meditation. (Gee, I guess I am writing another 'negative' post. Ah well.) I don't remember ever hearing gmj mention the possibility of a negative effect of meditation. Perhaps I was not paying attention enough? maybe he did. The only thing I remember him saying was that the Mind will come in and try to get you to stop or distract you etc. I am or was a personality type very much suited to meditation. I tried and had experiences with meditation before I met the guru and I meditated A LOT in the 10 years I followed him. At one time I organized a regular all day meditation. About once a month on Sunday I would meditate all day in the community center. Needless to say, it was not a very popular event, very few premies would join me. I had very powerful, very intense experiences. I took very seriously gmj's mockery of premies who would meditate for 'just' one hour. I made a serious effort to push myself past whatever natural limit my mind tried to impose on me. Anyway, I started to have very unpleasant experiences meditating at night. (this happened in Miami Beach when I was very involved in an intense 'service' which allowed very little time for meditating). I would sit down to meditate and I would black out and not remember how long I had been sitting, what I had been doing, etc. It was so unsettling, it made me nauseous actually. The more this happened the more I believed that following my breath and stopping the flow of thoughts was putting me into a place of absolute nothingness where I did not exist and where nothing existed. I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark a I have never thought that meditation was per se harmful. The problem is in the WAY meditation is used. As premies, we were told to use meditation to keep from thinking, at least to the extent thinking was 'negative' in that it consisted of doubts about M, K, or whether or not you were happy. For me, this got to the point where meditation was automatic whenever I felt confused, unsettled, or had any thoughts I considered uncomfortable or unsettling. That use of meditation is very bad, and has a terrible effect on people who try to do it. It means that normal thoughts and emotions are repressed, and as we all know things that are repressed eventually surface in other ways. For example, I think this was the reason so many premies were obviously miserable most of the time, but if you asked them they would tell you they were blissed out, either because they were so out of touch with themselves that they believed that, or else they thought that was what a premie was supposed to say. I think it also resulted in a very large number of psychosomatic illnesses among premies, especially women. I recall living in the Broadripple Hotel in Miami Beach in 1979. It was filled with premies who had these strange illnesses that were described in new age terms. Hypoglycemia, and chronic fatigue were common complaints. What was interesting was that after some of these people left the cult they got well. I think much of that resulted from repressed emotions, and a general feeling of worthlessness because we were programmed to believe that everything good that happened was due to M and everything bad that happened was due to US. What an awful place to live in. No wonder we got sick and had nausea. Some premies also sublimated into eating lots of sugar, especially ice cream, doing 'service' around the clock as a means of avoiding self-awarness through constant activity, and ambition to some power position in DLM or the Maharaji world. Now, 'formal' meditation can be relaxing and provide some nice experiences. But it is nevertheless a very limited thing. The 'harmful' part about it was wasting time spending hours and hours doing it, instead of doing something more constructive. I also recall the 'all day' and 'all night' meditations and M's ridicule of people who just did the 'minimum' two hours per day. It was also the mythology in the cult that meditation was some sort of 'direct connection' to Maharaji, that substituted for the fact that most of the premies didn't even KNOW the guy they were devoting their lives to. This was, of course, bullshit, but premies used meditation as a substitute for any kind of a real connection. So, to the extent it kept people in that unhealthy relationship, that was harmful too. Now, I think meditation, as M uses it is harmful because it is the 'bait' M uses to ensnare people into something that is really a devotional cult, and not something based on meditation at all. Meditation is just the acceptable 'hook,' when it's devotional worship that is really the end goal.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 15:11:50 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: Johncavad@yahoo.com
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
And On Anand Ji. Hey, are you in Athens? Ti Kanis, Vre?
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 19:12:23 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
And On Anand Ji. Hey, are you in Athens? Ti Kanis, Vre? My website is in the Athens section (philosophy) of the GeoCities web community. I live in Connecticut USA. And On Anand Ji's Website can be accessed by clicking on the hyperlink. There's nothing there right now; just my e-mail address. My Copernicus page is starting to take shape. It's just a collection of links -- no original research here.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 20:06:38 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I want to write about my experience of meditation. I don't think that in the 10 years I followed gmj I ever heard a premie talk about any negative effect of meditation. (Gee, I guess I am writing another 'negative' post. Ah well.) I don't remember ever hearing gmj mention the possibility of a negative effect of meditation. Perhaps I was not paying attention enough? maybe he did. The only thing I remember him saying was that the Mind will come in and try to get you to stop or distract you etc. I am or was a personality type very much suited to meditation. I tried and had experiences with meditation before I met the guru and I meditated A LOT in the 10 years I followed him. At one time I organized a regular all day meditation. About once a month on Sunday I would meditate all day in the community center. Needless to say, it was not a very popular event, very few premies would join me. I had very powerful, very intense experiences. I took very seriously gmj's mockery of premies who would meditate for 'just' one hour. I made a serious effort to push myself past whatever natural limit my mind tried to impose on me. Anyway, I started to have very unpleasant experiences meditating at night. (this happened in Miami Beach when I was very involved in an intense 'service' which allowed very little time for meditating). I would sit down to meditate and I would black out and not remember how long I had been sitting, what I had been doing, etc. It was so unsettling, it made me nauseous actually. The more this happened the more I believed that following my breath and stopping the flow of thoughts was putting me into a place of absolute nothingness where I did not exist and where nothing existed. I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark a I have never thought that meditation was per se harmful. The problem is in the WAY meditation is used. As premies, we were told to use meditation to keep from thinking, at least to the extent thinking was 'negative' in that it consisted of doubts about M, K, or whether or not you were happy. For me, this got to the point where meditation was automatic whenever I felt confused, unsettled, or had any thoughts I considered uncomfortable or unsettling. That use of meditation is very bad, and has a terrible effect on people who try to do it. It means that normal thoughts and emotions are repressed, and as we all know things that are repressed eventually surface in other ways. For example, I think this was the reason so many premies were obviously miserable most of the time, but if you asked them they would tell you they were blissed out, either because they were so out of touch with themselves that they believed that, or else they thought that was what a premie was supposed to say. I think it also resulted in a very large number of psychosomatic illnesses among premies, especially women. I recall living in the Broadripple Hotel in Miami Beach in 1979. It was filled with premies who had these strange illnesses that were described in new age terms. Hypoglycemia, and chronic fatigue were common complaints. What was interesting was that after some of these people left the cult they got well. I think much of that resulted from repressed emotions, and a general feeling of worthlessness because we were programmed to believe that everything good that happened was due to M and everything bad that happened was due to US. What an awful place to live in. No wonder we got sick and had nausea. Some premies also sublimated into eating lots of sugar, especially ice cream, doing 'service' around the clock as a means of avoiding self-awarness through constant activity, and ambition to some power position in DLM or the Maharaji world. Now, 'formal' meditation can be relaxing and provide some nice experiences. But it is nevertheless a very limited thing. The 'harmful' part about it was wasting time spending hours and hours doing it, instead of doing something more constructive. I also recall the 'all day' and 'all night' meditations and M's ridicule of people who just did the 'minimum' two hours per day. It was also the mythology in the cult that meditation was some sort of 'direct connection' to Maharaji, that substituted for the fact that most of the premies didn't even KNOW the guy they were devoting their lives to. This was, of course, bullshit, but premies used meditation as a substitute for any kind of a real connection. So, to the extent it kept people in that unhealthy relationship, that was harmful too. Now, I think meditation, as M uses it is harmful because it is the 'bait' M uses to ensnare people into something that is really a devotional cult, and not something based on meditation at all. Meditation is just the acceptable 'hook,' when it's devotional worship that is really the end goal. In a treeless world a foolish man found a winning lottery ticket. 'Ahaa!' he exclaimed. 'This will make great toilet paper. What a find!' He quickly hurried home to share his good fortune with his family. Moral: If a fool shares his wisdom with others, does anybody really gain?
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 21:53:57 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Operations (off topic) (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
What was the operation your wife was having, John? The use of that drug without a proper knock out anasthetic is illegal here and I cannot imagine any surgeon performing major surgery without complete unconsciousness because of the danger of heart attack. If this practise is allowed in America in should be banned or only used for minor surgery. But really it should be banned. I realise it's a cheap form of anethatising someone but the risks are very great. For instance some people have retained the memory despite the drug. There are many cases of people in these instances sueing the hospital for neglegence, and winning. _______
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 23:08:12 (EST)
Poster: WISDOM HERE?????
Email: *.*
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I want to write about my experience of meditation. I don't think that in the 10 years I followed gmj I ever heard a premie talk about any negative effect of meditation. (Gee, I guess I am writing another 'negative' post. Ah well.) I don't remember ever hearing gmj mention the possibility of a negative effect of meditation. Perhaps I was not paying attention enough? maybe he did. The only thing I remember him saying was that the Mind will come in and try to get you to stop or distract you etc. I am or was a personality type very much suited to meditation. I tried and had experiences with meditation before I met the guru and I meditated A LOT in the 10 years I followed him. At one time I organized a regular all day meditation. About once a month on Sunday I would meditate all day in the community center. Needless to say, it was not a very popular event, very few premies would join me. I had very powerful, very intense experiences. I took very seriously gmj's mockery of premies who would meditate for 'just' one hour. I made a serious effort to push myself past whatever natural limit my mind tried to impose on me. Anyway, I started to have very unpleasant experiences meditating at night. (this happened in Miami Beach when I was very involved in an intense 'service' which allowed very little time for meditating). I would sit down to meditate and I would black out and not remember how long I had been sitting, what I had been doing, etc. It was so unsettling, it made me nauseous actually. The more this happened the more I believed that following my breath and stopping the flow of thoughts was putting me into a place of absolute nothingness where I did not exist and where nothing existed. I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark a I have never thought that meditation was per se harmful. The problem is in the WAY meditation is used. As premies, we were told to use meditation to keep from thinking, at least to the extent thinking was 'negative' in that it consisted of doubts about M, K, or whether or not you were happy. For me, this got to the point where meditation was automatic whenever I felt confused, unsettled, or had any thoughts I considered uncomfortable or unsettling. That use of meditation is very bad, and has a terrible effect on people who try to do it. It means that normal thoughts and emotions are repressed, and as we all know things that are repressed eventually surface in other ways. For example, I think this was the reason so many premies were obviously miserable most of the time, but if you asked them they would tell you they were blissed out, either because they were so out of touch with themselves that they believed that, or else they thought that was what a premie was supposed to say. I think it also resulted in a very large number of psychosomatic illnesses among premies, especially women. I recall living in the Broadripple Hotel in Miami Beach in 1979. It was filled with premies who had these strange illnesses that were described in new age terms. Hypoglycemia, and chronic fatigue were common complaints. What was interesting was that after some of these people left the cult they got well. I think much of that resulted from repressed emotions, and a general feeling of worthlessness because we were programmed to believe that everything good that happened was due to M and everything bad that happened was due to US. What an awful place to live in. No wonder we got sick and had nausea. Some premies also sublimated into eating lots of sugar, especially ice cream, doing 'service' around the clock as a means of avoiding self-awarness through constant activity, and ambition to some power position in DLM or the Maharaji world. Now, 'formal' meditation can be relaxing and provide some nice experiences. But it is nevertheless a very limited thing. The 'harmful' part about it was wasting time spending hours and hours doing it, instead of doing something more constructive. I also recall the 'all day' and 'all night' meditations and M's ridicule of people who just did the 'minimum' two hours per day. It was also the mythology in the cult that meditation was some sort of 'direct connection' to Maharaji, that substituted for the fact that most of the premies didn't even KNOW the guy they were devoting their lives to. This was, of course, bullshit, but premies used meditation as a substitute for any kind of a real connection. So, to the extent it kept people in that unhealthy relationship, that was harmful too. Now, I think meditation, as M uses it is harmful because it is the 'bait' M uses to ensnare people into something that is really a devotional cult, and not something based on meditation at all. Meditation is just the acceptable 'hook,' when it's devotional worship that is really the end goal. In a treeless world a foolish man found a winning lottery ticket. 'Ahaa!' he exclaimed. 'This will make great toilet paper. What a find!' He quickly hurried home to share his good fortune with his family. Moral: If a fool shares his wisdom with others, does anybody really gain? I Think 'NOT' but you guys keep posting anyways!
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 01:32:26 (EST)
Poster: kljhg
Email: **bb
To: WISDOM HERE?????
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
why don't you have your own signiture. Or some false name that someone else is not using. That way your post is not falsely signed as someone else.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 12:31:06 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
In a treeless world a foolish man found a winning lottery ticket. 'Ahaa!' he exclaimed. 'This will make great toilet paper. What a find!' He quickly hurried home to share his good fortune with his family. Moral: If a fool shares his wisdom with others, does anybody really gain? It appears that parables and meaningless little fables are the last resort of charlatans, like Maharaji, and the chronically ignorant who have nothing to say for themselves and instead repeat cute little stories. ALthough, I would also point out the obvious, that there is such a thing as the real world, and that it is 'treeless' and your chances of winning the lottery about the same whether you play or not. I, myself, also had a parable in mind to respond to yours, but I forgot it, so, in a attempt to respond to you in ways you might be able to understand, I will do an interpretive dance, instead.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 15:43:48 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
In a treeless world a foolish man found a winning lottery ticket. 'Ahaa!' he exclaimed. 'This will make great toilet paper. What a find!' He quickly hurried home to share his good fortune with his family. Moral: If a fool shares his wisdom with others, does anybody really gain? It appears that parables and meaningless little fables are the last resort of charlatans, like Maharaji, and the chronically ignorant who have nothing to say for themselves and instead repeat cute little stories. ALthough, I would also point out the obvious, that there is such a thing as the real world, and that it is 'treeless' and your chances of winning the lottery about the same whether you play or not. I, myself, also had a parable in mind to respond to yours, but I forgot it, so, in a attempt to respond to you in ways you might be able to understand, I will do an interpretive dance, instead. Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 17:13:55 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 18:00:20 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Not at all. It actually kind of interesting.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 20:38:14 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. >> It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. >> Not at all. It actually kind of interesting. Here's a riddle... What's the only thing more repulsive than being arrogant and insulting? Answer: Hiding the arrogance and insults behind spirituality.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 21:01:56 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. >> It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. >> Not at all. It actually kind of interesting. Here's a riddle... What's the only thing more repulsive than being arrogant and insulting? Answer: Hiding the arrogance and insults behind spirituality. I disagree. A fool is far more repulsive. A fool, by definition, is an ignorant person who thinks he knows. Fools have caused untold grief to innocent people, from wars, to persecution, to famine. Insults and arrogance can easily be avoided by the innocent. Sorry you're insulted but if the shoe fits...
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 21:32:49 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. >> It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. >> Not at all. It actually kind of interesting. Here's a riddle... What's the only thing more repulsive than being arrogant and insulting? Answer: Hiding the arrogance and insults behind spirituality. I disagree. A fool is far more repulsive. A fool, by definition, is an ignorant person who thinks he knows. Fools have caused untold grief to innocent people, from wars, to persecution, to famine. Insults and arrogance can easily be avoided by the innocent. Sorry you're insulted but if the shoe fits... No, no, no. You don't get it. You're a fool. You're arrogant and insulting (to JW, not me). You think you're spiritual or connected to something spiritual and you aren't. You're far too unimportant and inept to cause a war or much damage in the world, but you are covering your anger and frustration with spirituality. If you want to be spiritual, you need to first be honest and direct. You're in the right place. Good start.
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 00:18:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I think it's time for the interpretive dance.
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 01:02:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
A Sap: Regarding: A fool, by definition, is an ignorant person who thinks he knows. So what do you call an ignorant person who 'knows' he knows? And... isn't the potential for harm, by definition, greater? -Scott
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 11:45:26 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Doesn't the person Aesop is referring to here remind you of someone? (And I don't mean JW, either!) How many ignorant fools who know they 'Know' and have caused great harm have we had in our lives? (One is enough for my lifetime, thank you very much.)
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 12:43:43 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. >> It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. >> Not at all. It actually kind of interesting. Here's a riddle... What's the only thing more repulsive than being arrogant and insulting? Answer: Hiding the arrogance and insults behind spirituality. I disagree. A fool is far more repulsive. A fool, by definition, is an ignorant person who thinks he knows. Fools have caused untold grief to innocent people, from wars, to persecution, to famine. Insults and arrogance can easily be avoided by the innocent. Sorry you're insulted but if the shoe fits... No, no, no. You don't get it. You're a fool. You're arrogant and insulting (to JW, not me). You think you're spiritual or connected to something spiritual and you aren't. You're far too unimportant and inept to cause a war or much damage in the world, but you are covering your anger and frustration with spirituality. If you want to be spiritual, you need to first be honest and direct. You're in the right place. Good start. We are all fools in that given we are always in a state of transition from ingnorance to enlightment (assuming the best of human potential), from time to time we all think our level of knowledge is absolute. Wisdom is: 1) recognizing the fallibility of the ground under which you stand and, 2)always striving to know that which is infallible. If infallible truth is what you seek it can ONLY be perceived in silence when the heart can be heard. Moral: If you build your fortress on shifting ground, the ground will become your greatest enemy.
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 20:15:20 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I think it's time for the interpretive dance. I'm with you, Joe, let's dance (interpretively)! 'One Grecian Urn ....'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 00:41:01 (EST)
Poster: Aesop
Email: **
To: Aesop
Subject: the zealot (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
Jeez, what makes you think the heart can be heard 'ONLY' in silence? That shows how constricted your experience of life is. god is not limited to be felt only in some certain way. Do you really think this creation is so god damn evil that god is hiding behind my eyelids? You say it can ONLY (your emphasis) be percieved in the ... please don't continue to assume we are really stupid. You are moralizing to people who were much more devoted to maharji than you will ever be. To you we are stupid. We are not impressed with your great wisdom and small minded arrogance. You can not stop us or teach us. You are programmed and you want to show us the way back, well thanks, but we have been there, done that, (more than you) and we are not joining you at the next darshan line. Go tell the masses that are waiting for the lord. Don't waste your zeal here. We love our shifting ground. we love being off the long strange road. We are happy to be off your beloved 'train'. We are deaf, stupid, and the enemy.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 01:09:22 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Aesop
Subject: Re: Discourse on Morals (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
Parables have always been used as a vehicle to enlighten people in a non-confrontive way. As such they are not intended for the fools of the world because they (the fools that is) are too concerned with the 'real world' to bother with enlightenment. So feel free to disregard if you like - I'll understand. Moral: Always wear a sunblock with an SPF factor of 15 or greater. To call your parable, which implies that I see valuable things on the level of toilet paper, as 'non-confrontive' is just a little off. Moreover, parables have also been used throughout history so that one can avoid saying what one really means, as a way to avoid confronting what one really thinks, or as a way to avoid answering tough questions, while at the same time sounding deep and profound. Don't get me wrong, I think storytelling has it's place. And thank you for your understanding nonetheless. It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. Moral: Why not just say what you think, if you have something to say, instead of obscuring it in storytelling? 2nd Moral: Spiritual condescension is not attractive, nor is it very enlightened. >> It must be such a burden for someone as enlightened as yourself having to deal with 'fools' like me. >> Not at all. It actually kind of interesting. Here's a riddle... What's the only thing more repulsive than being arrogant and insulting? Answer: Hiding the arrogance and insults behind spirituality. I disagree. A fool is far more repulsive. A fool, by definition, is an ignorant person who thinks he knows. Fools have caused untold grief to innocent people, from wars, to persecution, to famine. Insults and arrogance can easily be avoided by the innocent. Sorry you're insulted but if the shoe fits... No, no, no. You don't get it. You're a fool. You're arrogant and insulting (to JW, not me). You think you're spiritual or connected to something spiritual and you aren't. You're far too unimportant and inept to cause a war or much damage in the world, but you are covering your anger and frustration with spirituality. If you want to be spiritual, you need to first be honest and direct. You're in the right place. Good start. We are all fools in that given we are always in a state of transition from ingnorance to enlightment (assuming the best of human potential), from time to time we all think our level of knowledge is absolute. Wisdom is: 1) recognizing the fallibility of the ground under which you stand and, 2)always striving to know that which is infallible. If infallible truth is what you seek it can ONLY be perceived in silence when the heart can be heard. Moral: If you build your fortress on shifting ground, the ground will become your greatest enemy. Aesop, For the ex's posting here, Maharaji was the shifting ground. Regards, VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:56:25 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: WISDOM HERE?????
Subject: Re: Discourse on Meditation
Message:
I want to write about my experience of meditation. I don't think that in the 10 years I followed gmj I ever heard a premie talk about any negative effect of meditation. (Gee, I guess I am writing another 'negative' post. Ah well.) I don't remember ever hearing gmj mention the possibility of a negative effect of meditation. Perhaps I was not paying attention enough? maybe he did. The only thing I remember him saying was that the Mind will come in and try to get you to stop or distract you etc. I am or was a personality type very much suited to meditation. I tried and had experiences with meditation before I met the guru and I meditated A LOT in the 10 years I followed him. At one time I organized a regular all day meditation. About once a month on Sunday I would meditate all day in the community center. Needless to say, it was not a very popular event, very few premies would join me. I had very powerful, very intense experiences. I took very seriously gmj's mockery of premies who would meditate for 'just' one hour. I made a serious effort to push myself past whatever natural limit my mind tried to impose on me. Anyway, I started to have very unpleasant experiences meditating at night. (this happened in Miami Beach when I was very involved in an intense 'service' which allowed very little time for meditating). I would sit down to meditate and I would black out and not remember how long I had been sitting, what I had been doing, etc. It was so unsettling, it made me nauseous actually. The more this happened the more I believed that following my breath and stopping the flow of thoughts was putting me into a place of absolute nothingness where I did not exist and where nothing existed. I had the distinct realization that I was throwing my life down the toilet by sitting there in the dark a I have never thought that meditation was per se harmful. The problem is in the WAY meditation is used. As premies, we were told to use meditation to keep from thinking, at least to the extent thinking was 'negative' in that it consisted of doubts about M, K, or whether or not you were happy. For me, this got to the point where meditation was automatic whenever I felt confused, unsettled, or had any thoughts I considered uncomfortable or unsettling. That use of meditation is very bad, and has a terrible effect on people who try to do it. It means that normal thoughts and emotions are repressed, and as we all know things that are repressed eventually surface in other ways. For example, I think this was the reason so many premies were obviously miserable most of the time, but if you asked them they would tell you they were blissed out, either because they were so out of touch with themselves that they believed that, or else they thought that was what a premie was supposed to say. I think it also resulted in a very large number of psychosomatic illnesses among premies, especially women. I recall living in the Broadripple Hotel in Miami Beach in 1979. It was filled with premies who had these strange illnesses that were described in new age terms. Hypoglycemia, and chronic fatigue were common complaints. What was interesting was that after some of these people left the cult they got well. I think much of that resulted from repressed emotions, and a general feeling of worthlessness because we were programmed to believe that everything good that happened was due to M and everything bad that happened was due to US. What an awful place to live in. No wonder we got sick and had nausea. Some premies also sublimated into eating lots of sugar, especially ice cream, doing 'service' around the clock as a means of avoiding self-awarness through constant activity, and ambition to some power position in DLM or the Maharaji world. Now, 'formal' meditation can be relaxing and provide some nice experiences. But it is nevertheless a very limited thing. The 'harmful' part about it was wasting time spending hours and hours doing it, instead of doing something more constructive. I also recall the 'all day' and 'all night' meditations and M's ridicule of people who just did the 'minimum' two hours per day. It was also the mythology in the cult that meditation was some sort of 'direct connection' to Maharaji, that substituted for the fact that most of the premies didn't even KNOW the guy they were devoting their lives to. This was, of course, bullshit, but premies used meditation as a substitute for any kind of a real connection. So, to the extent it kept people in that unhealthy relationship, that was harmful too. Now, I think meditation, as M uses it is harmful because it is the 'bait' M uses to ensnare people into something that is really a devotional cult, and not something based on meditation at all. Meditation is just the acceptable 'hook,' when it's devotional worship that is really the end goal. In a treeless world a foolish man found a winning lottery ticket. 'Ahaa!' he exclaimed. 'This will make great toilet paper. What a find!' He quickly hurried home to share his good fortune with his family. Moral: If a fool shares his wisdom with others, does anybody really gain? I Think 'NOT' but you guys keep posting anyways! It has been my experience and realisation also!
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:55:55 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.cm
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Continued (Re: Discourse on Meditation)
Message:
The saying all things in moderation came about for a reason I guess.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 15:49:21 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Bummer
Message:
What happens to an aspirant who cannot see? What happens to an aspirant who cannot hear? What happens to an aspirant who has no hands? Will they only be able to receive half-knowledge? Are they only half-graced? Should they only give half of themselves? Is there any premie out here who has enough courage to reflect on the following: Truth must stand on its own. Truth will survive any questioning, any scrutiny. Truth invites it. Why do you, who have two eyes refuse to see? Why do you, who have two ears refuse to hear? WAKE UP. See reality for what it is. Each and every one of you is a beautiful gift. BUT you are a gift of GOD, not of a rolly-polly opportunistic grown up child. Are you worshipping the creation or the Creator? Do you ever stop to give thanks to GOD? To give praise to GOD? You thank, praise, and worship another human being. WAKE UP, It is not too late. -gumby
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 01:58:19 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Bummer
Message:
That's good. After I received K I used to think that a deaf person would be at a disadvantage meditating on the word since they would not hear their breath but could only feel it. I also wondered about mentally retarded people, since they could never be expected to conform to the discipline of meditation. Incidentally, I truly left Maharaji when, due to bad health problems, I was unable to get to any programs to see him. I then realised that this was a religion for the able bodied, who were active enough to be able to chase Maharaji around the world. I have now suffered from ME for many years. I have some friends with the same illness who could never follow the aspirant program. Some of them would find it well nigh impossible to get to a local video 'event'. If it wasn't for Maharaji, I think a good kind of 'religion' could have been born. If just meditation and satsang had been practised, without a guru and without Hindu dogma then something good could have emerged. I feel this very strongly. If my time and health would only allow it, I may set something like this up, locally. It would be interesting to see if other people agree with me here.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 11:16:28 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Bummer
Message:
That's good. After I received K I used to think that a deaf person would be at a disadvantage meditating on the word since they would not hear their breath but could only feel it. I also wondered about mentally retarded people, since they could never be expected to conform to the discipline of meditation. Incidentally, I truly left Maharaji when, due to bad health problems, I was unable to get to any programs to see him. I then realised that this was a religion for the able bodied, who were active enough to be able to chase Maharaji around the world. I have now suffered from ME for many years. I have some friends with the same illness who could never follow the aspirant program. Some of them would find it well nigh impossible to get to a local video 'event'. If it wasn't for Maharaji, I think a good kind of 'religion' could have been born. If just meditation and satsang had been practised, without a guru and without Hindu dogma then something good could have emerged. I feel this very strongly. If my time and health would only allow it, I may set something like this up, locally. It would be interesting to see if other people agree with me here. Hi David, Thanks for your post. What is ME? I hope your health is well. I believe everyone has a hunger for God in their hearts. A desire to be close to God. How many times do we misperceive this basic truth by traveling down all sorts of weird paths? It seems to me that creating a 'religion' that is based on meditation and satsang, is analogous to worshipping a painting, without giving thanks and praise to the Painter. The techniques of k are another set of physiological exercises that happen to make one feel that the experience is somehow divine, somehow special, somehow a direct link to 'god'. Anyone who has ever been in the 'zone' doing whatever activity can testify that these very same physiological/ divine experiences can be attained doing any activity. Why are we so focused on the painting and not on the Painter? Are we so afraid to talk/discuss God? Isn't that the whole core issue here? Grace and God be with you. -gumby
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 11:16:55 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Bummer
Message:
'I have now suffered from ME for many years' What is ME? There were a number of hearing impaired people in D.C. who rec'd K. I don't think they were at a disadvantage. 'If it wasn't for Maharaji, I think a good kind of 'religion' could have been born. If just meditation and satsang had been practised, without a guru and without Hindu dogma then something good could have emerged.' I would be surprised if there is not something like that already happening wherever you are. In the little city I live in there is at least one group I know of where the participants meet, take turns speaking, and then meditate on their breath. I went once, and was amazed by the smiles on some of their faces, some serene, some blissful - and no altar, no pictures, no superhero to worship; just life, and each other. I would go more but they meet at a bad time for me. Which is not to say that you could not hang a shingle on your door, something like - 'The Generic Guru' teaching time tested techniques for touching truth.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 14:17:26 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: God (Re: Bummer)
Message:
'Why are we so focused on the painting and not on the Painter? Are we so afraid to talk/discuss God? Dear Gumby: Hey, I'm not afraid to talk about God, but really what's the point? The last time I looked God was not in the phone book. (Actually, maybe God is in the phone book, I have never looked - o me of little faith!) I think God is the one afraid to come to the discussion table and enter into the general argument. After all, God is the one responsible for this creation. And having been forced into membership of the creation, I can say a lot about its inherent problems and flaws. Face it, pain is a problem. Also - death, suffering, old age, sickness, the list of negatives that this creation holds is truly endless. God might very well be embarassed about how this creation has turned out. But seriously, what is there to say about God? Who is to say that God is this or that? Here is my theory: I am God. I got bored being the ultimate and so I chose to create a scene in which I would think that I am not who I really am, but would be under the mistaken impression that I am finite, temporal, confused, etc. You know, one of the general rabble. And so just for a lark, I had myself born into a human form. How else to pass eternity? Gotta put a little excitement into the endless experience of perfection. So, when I die, I will return to my existence of being God and have a good laugh with the other aspects of myself who chose to do the same thing. That is, all of you.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 14:54:56 (EST)
Poster: built for
Email: **
To: John K.
Subject: fun? (Re: Bummer)
Message:
Not bad. We can probably call on the bigger part for some assist in some ways. At this church I don't go to on sundays, but on saturday mornings for coffee and food, to listen to people who aren't on this forum talk about god, this week the preacher talked about he himself haveing times where he doubts the existance of god and that there ARE (to him) dark nights of the soul. I figured he was overloaded with god talk and all kinds of dogma (like paul's vast opinions on everything). And that a simple view on the power without unreasonable and false assumptions about it is the safe viewpoint that wouldn't lead to throwing up. It's a tricky deal to find a viewpoint that seems the best. I have copped to the casual mr Amazing view. It does seem that the larger part can play a role and is not without opinions and options of it's own. Even if you just call it a safety feature of self preservation, that alone is reason enough for the life to maintain a separate watchful part of itself to do some steering and do some helping. There is plenty of evidence of the existance of a concious power that we tend to hallucinate about. The only part I am no longer willing to believe without solid accepted scientific evidence, is that the bigger part, or the power or the god, takes a body once in a while. There is no scriptures anywhere that can make a solid case for that. Even Yeshua/jesus, having marched around the countryside breaking the normal laws by healing, walking on water, and the rest, still said he was not the big it. At one point he said he was at one with his 'father' or source, but right there on the cross he was busy talking to someone else. Any part of that bigger part (like ourselves for instance), is wrapped in human nature and apparently can't escape that. Seems like the so-called god is too big to fit in a body without becoming just exactly like us. Maybe that is why most of the non hindu men that wanted to start a religion say they are a prophet or at the MOST, a son of god. WE of course enjoyed the rare appearance of the Lord of the Universe and his complete 64 powers.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 21:20:11 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Bummer
Message:
I am most interested in your little group who meditate and have their own company of truth. It was this company of truth which first gave me a confirmation that there was something more to life and also inspired me to meditate. You know I cannot think of a time when Maharaji actually inspired me to meditate. It was always surrender now, be a devotee etc. etc. I think I will peruse my back yard and see if there's any similar group here. It would be good to find some people who have some experience of meditation without all the bullshit. I would have to make sure it wasn't connected to Hinduism or anything. Regarding ME. It stands for Myalgic Encephelomyalitis. It is also sometimes refered to as chronic fatigue syndrome. It is caused by a virus which attacks the body and nervous system and weakens the immune system. ME causes many other associated complaints besides chronic fatique such as fibro myalgia, numerous allergies and chemical sensitivities and also at times, an inability to concentrate or think clearly. I am not the only person here to suffer from it. Joy suffers from it too. I have been ill since 1984 when I failed to get over a severe flu virus. Some people get the disease and recover after a few years but I've not been so lucky. SInce I've had it so long, my system is too weakened to make a full recovery. At best, I am hoping for some improvement in the future. It does make life very difficult because of the constant weakness and sickness. Fortunately it is not a terminal illness like MS. I think the chronic fatigue Joe mentioned premies had in the seventies was caused by poor diet and overwork with not enough sleep, over several years. I know when I first joined the ashram I had a medical examination for a job I applied for (a job in 'the world' to finance Maharaji's hard drinking, fast women lifestyle). The doctor who examined me exclaimed, 'How come you're so fit?' I was indeed very fit then in 1973 since I had been a racing cyclist since my early teens. And yet, within a few months of living in the ashram I was waking up exhausted every morning and by the time I left after two years, I was pretty wrecked. I did fortunately recover my health and fitness after I left the ashram and was fine until I came down with the dreaded ME in '84. Gumby asked if we were afraid to discuss God on this forum. I'm certainly not afraid but there is a problem in that there are many differing views of God hear and I don't want to encroach on someone's beliefs. Some of us are athiests, some are believers in Buddism, some just believe in a God with no particular religion. The latter is my belief. The main thing that has given me such a belief is an occasional insight of an all compassionate and infinite love. The fact that I have heard people who've had Near Death Experiences who have described the same thing, does lead me to believe that there is a God who loves us. My understanding is that He is taking us on an eternal journey of discovery where we discover at our own pace and with no religious dogma attatched. I understand that we have an eternal relationship with God that is warm, loving and intimate. Nothing we do is seperate from God because we, like Him, need to explore all possiblities and all avenues to experience what we are.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 03:30:47 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Bummer, & ME (Re: Bummer)
Message:
Hi David In your last post: > It would be good to find some people who have some > experience of meditation without all the bullshit. In twenty years that I have been searching, the most profound meditation I have experienced is reading the Bible and meditating on the Word of God. And I truly tell you, when my heart is open and willing to listen and receive, God speaks to me. I am not referring to churchianity, or religiousity. I am refering to a very direct relationship with God. God knows that there has been lots of deception in the name of Jesus the Christ. > Regarding ME. It stands for Myalgic Encephelomyalitis. It > is also sometimes refered to as chronic fatigue syndrome. > It is caused by a virus which attacks the body and > nervous system and weakens the immune system. ME causes > many other associated complaints besides chronic fatique > such as fibro myalgia, numerous allergies and chemical > sensitivities and also at times, an inability to > concentrate or think clearly. I am sorry to hear that you suffer from this. Have you looked into food grade 35% hydrogen peroxide, H2O2? Or ozone, O3? Or Bob Beck's blood purifier? Or Hulda Clarks zapper? For the oxygen therapies you may want to check out: 'http://www.oxytherapy.com' for information. Search the net for the other therapies. If you need more info I'll do some research for you. I'll pray for you brother. > Gumby asked if we were afraid to discuss God on this > forum. I'm certainly not afraid but there is a problem > in that there are many differing views of God hear and > I don't want to encroach on someone's beliefs. The very purpose and reason for this site's existence is so that you can hopefully 'encroach' and provide different views to expose the fraud that m is. > Some of us are athiests, This is a very popular religion these days. > some are believers in > Buddism, some just believe in a God with no particular > religion. The latter is my belief. Can you objectify this a little or is it just a feeling? It is not clear where you are coming from. > The main thing that has given me such a belief is an > occasional insight of an all compassionate > and infinite love. Can you share your experience? > The fact that I have heard people > who've had Near Death Experiences who have described > the same thing, does lead me to believe that there is a > God who loves us. I have had contact with some people that have had NDE's and have had very stark and powerful experiences of what HELL is like. So real, so powerful that whatever they went through they sure changed their lives very radically. :) > My understanding is that He is taking us on an eternal > journey of discovery where we discover at our own pace > and with no religious dogma attatched. > I understand that we have an eternal relationship with > God that is warm, loving and intimate. > Nothing we do is seperate from God because we, like Him, > need to explore all possiblities and all avenues to > experience what we are. What do you base your understanding on? David, You are an open minded man? With your heart open and with true sincerity, give the following a try: (What do you have to lose?) Dear God, I don't know if I know you. It is said that I can have a direct relationship with you. I am open. My heart is open. I want to know you. Show me who you are. In your name, Lord Jesus Christ, I pray. Grace and Peace be with you. -gumby
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 06:51:37 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Bummer, & ME (Re: Bummer)
Message:
Come on now Gumby, you're not going to convert anyone HERE to Christianity. After all we've been through do you really think we're going to be interested? I had a Near Death Experience myself. It was very comforting and there was much love and understanding there. There is no hell to frighten us with. God is unconditional love. That means, love with no conditions and no strings attatched. End of story.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 12:45:49 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Bummer, & ME (Re: Bummer)
Message:
Hi David, Have you heard of the alternative therapies I mentioned? I believe they might be helpful? > Come on now Gumby, you're not going to convert anyone > HERE to Christianity. I am sharing my experiences. If anyone is willing to listen and engage, great. I don't have the gift of telling the future (as apparently you do :)) so I can't say what will or won't happen here in the future. > After all we've been through > do you really think we're going to be interested? I would venture to guess that it is BECAUSE of all that you have been through that you would be open to sharing? > I had a Near Death Experience myself. Can you share that experience? > It was very comforting and there was much love and > understanding there. There is no hell to frighten > us with. I'm not trying to frighten you. > God is > unconditional love. That means, love with no conditions > and no strings attatched. I asked in the last post, what you share with me on this? Is it a feeling, a direct experience? I'm interested. > End of story. David, You're an open person? Isn't the very reason that you joined m was that you had a sincere desire, a sincere openness to experience God? If you think that you are in some way special, You are right! But, it is not because you followed m. You are special, because God loves you more than any human could ever imagine or be capable of imagining. Is it not a possibility that the very one God that you so desire is waiting, waiting for you to just accept Him? Are you open enough to be open to it? God doesn't want your money. God doesn't want you to hop on jets and disrupt your family to follow him. God doesn't require service or works from you. What do you have to lose? Grace and God be with you. -gumby
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Date: Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 00:07:49 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: gumby
Subject: Let's not bring Jesus into this! (Re: Bummer)
Message:
[--- snip! ---] . . . God knows that there has been lots of deception in the name of Jesus the Christ. [--- snip! ---] If you're looking for Jesus . . . Second door, down the hall on the left -- next to the lavatory. He likes to be near water.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 06:25:51 (EST)
Poster: Guru David Ji
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Alternative Knowledge of God
Message:
God is within you. God is peace. I can reveal this true knowledge to you. I learned this knowledge when I was just 16 and realised it immediately. Come to me and I will give you peace. I am the source of peace in this world. Give me your love, become my devotee and I will impart this knowledge to you. But you must promise NEVER to reveal this knowledge to anyone. Only I have the divine authority from God to reveal this knowledge. Indeed, Guru David Ji is greater than God because he can reveal God, who is peace, inside of yourself. It has been said that the One who reveals this knowledge is the true embodiment of God. When God comes into this world, how do you recognise Him? Why, by the knowledge He reveals of course. Surrender your life to me and I will show you inner peace and tranquility. And I ask for nothing, only your gratitude. Bow before He who is God in human form and place your head at His feet. Worship Him who is the Lord Krishna incarnate (i.e. me) and give Him your gratitude (i.e. unpaid labour or money). HERE IS MY DIVINE KNOWLEDGE: Just one technique. Go for a twenty minute walk. Count your steps. Breathe steadily. Breathe in for six steps and then breathe out for six steps. Continue doing this as you walk. Do not strain yourself but do it comfortably. When you feel able to, increase the length of each in breath to seven steps and out breath for seven steps. But only if it feels comfortable. Do this walk/breathing technique for twenty minutes each day. As days pass you will be able to increase the number of steps for each breath to 8, 9, 10 or even more. Always keep the excersise at a comfortable level. Do not try to do longer breaths than is comfortable. You can of course do more than one session per day if you want. After just one twenty minute session of this you will feel relaxed and have a sense of calm and well being. (i.e. you will experience my grace). Only those who are my true devotees will experience this grace of David. David's grace is infinite. David's grace will enable you to tell people about this knowledge and (without revealing the technique) bring them to my feet. Only I have the grace to reveal this knowledge. Only He who is God in human form can reveal this knowledge. OK, seriously now. I learned that breathing excersise when I was 16. It does work in calming the mind and bringing inner peace. Of course, feel free to tell anyone about it who might benefit from it. See the parallel though? I made a useful breathing excersise into the divine knowledge of God and continued in that vein. That's all Maharaji has done with the meditation techniques. OK, I've made my point, thanks for reading.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 11:47:06 (EST)
Poster: Everyone
Email: c
To: Guru David Ji
Subject: Stupid Tart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
God is within you. God is peace. I can reveal this true knowledge to you. I learned this knowledge when I was just 16 and realised it immediately. Come to me and I will give you peace. I am the source of peace in this world. Give me your love, become my devotee and I will impart this knowledge to you. But you must promise NEVER to reveal this knowledge to anyone. Only I have the divine authority from God to reveal this knowledge. Indeed, Guru David Ji is greater than God because he can reveal God, who is peace, inside of yourself. It has been said that the One who reveals this knowledge is the true embodiment of God. When God comes into this world, how do you recognise Him? Why, by the knowledge He reveals of course. Surrender your life to me and I will show you inner peace and tranquility. And I ask for nothing, only your gratitude. Bow before He who is God in human form and place your head at His feet. Worship Him who is the Lord Krishna incarnate (i.e. me) and give Him your gratitude (i.e. unpaid labour or money). HERE IS MY DIVINE KNOWLEDGE: Just one technique. Go for a twenty minute walk. Count your steps. Breathe steadily. Breathe in for six steps and then breathe out for six steps. Continue doing this as you walk. Do not strain yourself but do it comfortably. When you feel able to, increase the length of each in breath to seven steps and out breath for seven steps. But only if it feels comfortable. Do this walk/breathing technique for twenty minutes each day. As days pass you will be able to increase the number of steps for each breath to 8, 9, 10 or even more. Always keep the excersise at a comfortable level. Do not try to do longer breaths than is comfortable. You can of course do more than one session per day if you want. After just one twenty minute session of this you will feel relaxed and have a sense of calm and well being. (i.e. you will experience my grace). Only those who are my true devotees will experience this grace of David. David's grace is infinite. David's grace will enable you to tell people about this knowledge and (without revealing the technique) bring them to my feet. Only I have the grace to reveal this knowledge. Only He who is God in human form can reveal this knowledge. OK, seriously now. I learned that breathing excersise when I was 16. It does work in calming the mind and bringing inner peace. Of course, feel free to tell anyone about it who might benefit from it. See the parallel though? I made a useful breathing excersise into the divine knowledge of God and continued in that vein. That's all Maharaji has done with the meditation techniques. OK, I've made my point, thanks for reading. .
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 12:18:45 (EST)
Poster: tart to
Email: **
To: Everyone
Subject: tart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
I was on the forum at the same time as as tart man but it wasn't me.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 13:28:54 (EST)
Poster: Tupid Start
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Stupid Tart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
Hi: I don't get this 'stupid tart' thing. Will someone explain? -Scott
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 14:10:39 (EST)
Poster: Guru David Ji
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Tupid Start
Subject: Re: Stupid Tart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
In Britain a 'tart' is either a pie without a top or a female prostitute. I don't know what it means in America. Our friendly tartman has revealed his great elequence in debating. I cannot match such a command of the English language.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 14:39:15 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Guru David Ji
Subject: Cupid Dart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
In Britain a 'tart' is either a pie without a top or a female prostitute. I don't know what it means in America. Our friendly tartman has revealed his great elequence in debating. I cannot match such a command of the English language. David Ji: Do I have a technical problem, are am I correct in the observation that 'tartman' didn't say anything? Or is this a sort of minimalist thang? -Scott
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 18:42:48 (EST)
Poster: Guru David Ji
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Cupid Dart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
That's right, Mr Tartman said nothing. It's incredible. And yet in his silence, he says everything. So profound, so minimalist, so new age. ______________________________
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 19:25:44 (EST)
Poster: Very (well) done
Email:
To: Guru David Ji
Subject: Lucid Smart (Re: Alternative Knowledge of God)
Message:
God is within you. God is peace. I can reveal this true knowledge to you. I learned this knowledge when I was just 16 and realised it immediately. Come to me and I will give you peace. I am the source of peace in this world. Give me your love, become my devotee and I will impart this knowledge to you. But you must promise NEVER to reveal this knowledge to anyone. Only I have the divine authority from God to reveal this knowledge. Indeed, Guru David Ji is greater than God because he can reveal God, who is peace, inside of yourself. It has been said that the One who reveals this knowledge is the true embodiment of God. When God comes into this world, how do you recognise Him? Why, by the knowledge He reveals of course. Surrender your life to me and I will show you inner peace and tranquility. And I ask for nothing, only your gratitude. Bow before He who is God in human form and place your head at His feet. Worship Him who is the Lord Krishna incarnate (i.e. me) and give Him your gratitude (i.e. unpaid labour or money). HERE IS MY DIVINE KNOWLEDGE: Just one technique. Go for a twenty minute walk. Count your steps. Breathe steadily. Breathe in for six steps and then breathe out for six steps. Continue doing this as you walk. Do not strain yourself but do it comfortably. When you feel able to, increase the length of each in breath to seven steps and out breath for seven steps. But only if it feels comfortable. Do this walk/breathing technique for twenty minutes each day. As days pass you will be able to increase the number of steps for each breath to 8, 9, 10 or even more. Always keep the excersise at a comfortable level. Do not try to do longer breaths than is comfortable. You can of course do more than one session per day if you want. After just one twenty minute session of this you will feel relaxed and have a sense of calm and well being. (i.e. you will experience my grace). Only those who are my true devotees will experience this grace of David. David's grace is infinite. David's grace will enable you to tell people about this knowledge and (without revealing the technique) bring them to my feet. Only I have the grace to reveal this knowledge. Only He who is God in human form can reveal this knowledge. OK, seriously now. I learned that breathing excersise when I was 16. It does work in calming the mind and bringing inner peace. Of course, feel free to tell anyone about it who might benefit from it. See the parallel though? I made a useful breathing excersise into the divine knowledge of God and continued in that vein. That's all Maharaji has done with the meditation techniques. OK, I've made my point, thanks for reading.
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 22:20:09 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: No nightmare scenario
Message:
Here is my reply to something that Scott wrote just before the forum was reset: I would say that the mainstream religions are already way ahead of Maharaji. As I mentioned before, he's even less successful than the Moonies. If the meditation techniques become well known, what bait can Maharaji use to hook them in? Mr Exe has already kindly informed us that M is buying land in remote places where the internet doesn't exist. Is he running scared? A slick internet presence by Maharaji (or on his behalf) could help him only if WE shut up and went away. That's not likely to happen. BB is committed to crushing Maraaji. Mr Exe is executing his revenge and there's a host of others including myself who do not want Maharaji's divine falsehood to be spread. But beyond all that, nobody sticks with M for more than a few years anyway. When I left Maharaji I still thought he was the Lord! I thought, well God you might be but I can't hack this anymore. I think that's fairly typical. Of the 8,000 premies who attended the program last December, how many were premies from the seventies? That would be interesting data. Do M's main followers comprise mainly of a hard core of die hard devotees who have stayed for many years or is it a rapid turnover situation where people stay for a short time and leave, to be replaced by others who do the same? Knowing the age of current premies would give us an idea. Looking at the few premies who post here, they seem to be mainly old premies with a few new ones mixed in. Of course, the sample is too small to glean anything accurate. Even when Maharaji was at his peak in the seventies, considering he was the Lord of the Universe, his expansion was hardly meteoric. Others here have said that they think Maharaji wants to keep things small and managable. If he went for global propogation on a big scale he would encounter great difficulties. The press and media would hound him like they did Diana and he would quickly withdraw. He's always done that in the past when under media pressure. If his daughter took over (just speculating) I doubt that her ministry would be the same as her fathers. Her titles, 'Perfect Mistress' or 'Lady of the Universe' would be interesting though. I don't know her but she might lack the hard edge that Maharaji has. Lacking ruthlessness she might be unable to keep the small empire together or prevent others from taking control. Also, when Maharaji's empire was expanding before there was a very different scenario. Any successful religion must have a social structure that binds the devotees together. We used to have nightly satsang and premie communities. Without a similar structure there could be no expansion of this religion.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 01:00:50 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: No nightmare scenario
Message:
Here is my reply to something that Scott wrote just before the forum was reset: I would say that the mainstream religions are already way ahead of Maharaji. As I mentioned before, he's even less successful than the Moonies. If the meditation techniques become well known, what bait can Maharaji use to hook them in? Mr Exe has already kindly informed us that M is buying land in remote places where the internet doesn't exist. Is he running scared? A slick internet presence by Maharaji (or on his behalf) could help him only if WE shut up and went away. That's not likely to happen. BB is committed to crushing Maraaji. Mr Exe is executing his revenge and there's a host of others including myself who do not want Maharaji's divine falsehood to be spread. But beyond all that, nobody sticks with M for more than a few years anyway. When I left Maharaji I still thought he was the Lord! I thought, well God you might be but I can't hack this anymore. I think that's fairly typical. Of the 8,000 premies who attended the program last December, how many were premies from the seventies? That would be interesting data. Do M's main followers comprise mainly of a hard core of die hard devotees who have stayed for many years or is it a rapid turnover situation where people stay for a short time and leave, to be replaced by others who do the same? Knowing the age of current premies would give us an idea. Looking at the few premies who post here, they seem to be mainly old premies with a few new ones mixed in. Of course, the sample is too small to glean anything accurate. Even when Maharaji was at his peak in the seventies, considering he was the Lord of the Universe, his expansion was hardly meteoric. Others here have said that they think Maharaji wants to keep things small and managable. If he went for global propogation on a big scale he would encounter great difficulties. The press and media would hound him like they did Diana and he would quickly withdraw. He's always done that in the past when under media pressure. If his daughter took over (just speculating) I doubt that her ministry would be the same as her fathers. Her titles, 'Perfect Mistress' or 'Lady of the Universe' would be interesting though. I don't know her but she might lack the hard edge that Maharaji has. Lacking ruthlessness she might be unable to keep the small empire together or prevent others from taking control. Also, when Maharaji's empire was expanding before there was a very different scenario. Any successful religion must have a social structure that binds the devotees together. We used to have nightly satsang and premie communities. Without a similar structure there could be no expansion of this religion. David: I haven't got a clue what's going to happen. Your scenario sounds as plausible as any. I once thought everyone would be living in geodesic domes. Ah well... I'd still like one. A nice, juicy tensegrity dome. Yum. My highly esteemed colleague thinks that the next 'big' movement will be an anarchic ideology of the left (not the libertarian brand). I don't see Ted Kascinski as the wave of the future though. I just saw Titanic and walked away wondering why this is the highest grossing movie in history. Are we on a sinking ship or something? Maybe I just don't get it. Heck, maybe we will all live in geodesic domes. Cool! -Scott
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 05:13:12 (EST)
Poster: chr
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: No nightmare scenario
Message:
In reference to your question as to whether the premies with M now are recent converts-I have attended 2 programs in the last few years. The premies, on the whole, were the same tired, old bunch that have been around for years-a lot less of them though.There seemed to be very few new faces. At a video night I went to there wouldnt have been more than 10 people,and I knew them all.This ,in a community where nightly satsang was regularly 300.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 11:45:08 (EST)
Poster: Invisible to
Email: bb
To: David
Subject: Visible (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
Another way to put that is not that crushing is the intent, but that trying to help assure that everything is up on the table and visible. It's only fair that all parts of the puzzle are on the table. What people do with the information is up to them. Deny, threaten, adjust, weigh, come to thier own conclusions. Certainly only one type of slant is given in the video training. The master god has been unchallenged for over 25 years in any sort of meaningful way. Brian, David and Scott (not T), were just being responsible and fairminded when they constructed and maintained the forum and website. I mean, geez, he asks for your life still. And wants to in fact rule your life. If he himself puts on such a front like he does, it's our responsibility to alert any alertable people to the rest of the story. If that destroys him, well that is only right and just. By the way, the threat from the spinner is empty air. He isn't structured to pull that off. It's a bit revealing that any reality but the dogma is met so violently and with such dogged denials. Who was that guy that was threatened with death because he recognised that the moon circles the earth and the earth circles the sun. We get quickly entrenched in some concept and death to those that would discover more. prem rawat probably will only dig in tighter and deeper. Making it harder for someone to escape his delusion. At least we provide some hope for them. I am not interested in yanking someone out of quicksand, but it's honorable and kind to throw them a rope and let them use it if they want. And whenever they want. The name change was mentioned and was vague. It slipped out so I might as well clarify. The blank space was in reference to a non-maharaji project. Still vague but it's not a secret maharaji related project. I hope Katie enjoys her vacation. Her mothering instincts are so strong that in a way she has been providing some mothering amongst the forum folks and it must be hard with all the minor warfare that goes one. Imagine the challenges mata ji had with her brood. All the various lords in one household! There isn't enough room on one planet for all that divinity. They couldn't even share the western world amongst themselves! They each needeed thier own planet to own. She was 'the holiest mother of creation' Well, she has set the standard. If the holiest mother can muster only that fragmented mess, her kids should have attended sunday school or something. Her husband was the lord, and two of her sons were also. Aren't we lucky to have been adopted by the clan. As virtual untouchables. The classic indian slaves. Do you know that each village in india has families that are deemed untouchables and for endless generations they are the ones that the entire villiage uses as virtual slaves. No one will alter thier condition or give them real jobs. They are to do only the lowest type of work for the entire village. That is the result of the buddist idea of reincarnation and karma. And there is no god, there are only others who are ahead of you on the path to escape from this hell hole of suffering. What a vast, blind. insulting to the creative force dogma. Meditation and devotion to the master/god is part of that whole delusion that prem rawat amped up and shared the 'gift' with us.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 11:53:49 (EST)
Poster: for
Email: **
To: Invisible to
Subject: Millificent (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
Excuse me mili, you are not on any list of arguers. But the mishler argument is kind of weak. Not really matching up to your large scope.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 13:43:24 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: No nightmare scenario
Message:
Here is my reply to something that Scott wrote just before the forum was reset: I would say that the mainstream religions are already way ahead of Maharaji. As I mentioned before, he's even less successful than the Moonies. If the meditation techniques become well known, what bait can Maharaji use to hook them in? Mr Exe has already kindly informed us that M is buying land in remote places where the internet doesn't exist. Is he running scared? A slick internet presence by Maharaji (or on his behalf) could help him only if WE shut up and went away. That's not likely to happen. BB is committed to crushing Maraaji. Mr Exe is executing his revenge and there's a host of others including myself who do not want Maharaji's divine falsehood to be spread. But beyond all that, nobody sticks with M for more than a few years anyway. When I left Maharaji I still thought he was the Lord! I thought, well God you might be but I can't hack this anymore. I think that's fairly typical. Of the 8,000 premies who attended the program last December, how many were premies from the seventies? That would be interesting data. Do M's main followers comprise mainly of a hard core of die hard devotees who have stayed for many years or is it a rapid turnover situation where people stay for a short time and leave, to be replaced by others who do the same? Knowing the age of current premies would give us an idea. Looking at the few premies who post here, they seem to be mainly old premies with a few new ones mixed in. Of course, the sample is too small to glean anything accurate. Even when Maharaji was at his peak in the seventies, considering he was the Lord of the Universe, his expansion was hardly meteoric. Others here have said that they think Maharaji wants to keep things small and managable. If he went for global propogation on a big scale he would encounter great difficulties. The press and media would hound him like they did Diana and he would quickly withdraw. He's always done that in the past when under media pressure. If his daughter took over (just speculating) I doubt that her ministry would be the same as her fathers. Her titles, 'Perfect Mistress' or 'Lady of the Universe' would be interesting though. I don't know her but she might lack the hard edge that Maharaji has. Lacking ruthlessness she might be unable to keep the small empire together or prevent others from taking control. Also, when Maharaji's empire was expanding before there was a very different scenario. Any successful religion must have a social structure that binds the devotees together. We used to have nightly satsang and premie communities. Without a similar structure there could be no expansion of this religion. Thanks, David. ----

Hi, I'm Andonanandji(*1), and I was a member of the Divine Light Mission cult in the late 1970's, and in the Elan Vital cult in the early 1990's. I'm mainly interested in two distinct areas:

Helping premies make a decision they can live with, through sharing experiences here on this web site.
That's mainly what this site has given me -- people to network with, and to support me in my decision to defect from the cult.
Not remaining silent about the facts of GMJ/DLM/M/EV as I see them in 1998, including my gut belief that Maharaji is a real and tangible danger to premies, old and new alike.

-------------------- (*1) You may learn my real first name by emailing me at: and_on_anand@yahoo.com. You would, however, have to correspond with me for a while before I would trust you with it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 10:13:01 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: Visible (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
[--- snip! ---] It's a bit revealing that any reality but the dogma is met so violently and with such dogged denials. Who was that guy that was threatened with death because he recognised that the moon circles the earth and the earth circles the sun. We get quickly entrenched in some concept and death to those that would discover more. [--- snip! ---] Are you thinking of Copernicus?
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 12:31:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: No nightmare scenario
Message:
Here is my reply to something that Scott wrote just before the forum was reset: I would say that the mainstream religions are already way ahead of Maharaji. As I mentioned before, he's even less successful than the Moonies. If the meditation techniques become well known, what bait can Maharaji use to hook them in? Mr Exe has already kindly informed us that M is buying land in remote places where the internet doesn't exist. Is he running scared? A slick internet presence by Maharaji (or on his behalf) could help him only if WE shut up and went away. That's not likely to happen. BB is committed to crushing Maraaji. Mr Exe is executing his revenge and there's a host of others including myself who do not want Maharaji's divine falsehood to be spread. But beyond all that, nobody sticks with M for more than a few years anyway. When I left Maharaji I still thought he was the Lord! I thought, well God you might be but I can't hack this anymore. I think that's fairly typical. Of the 8,000 premies who attended the program last December, how many were premies from the seventies? That would be interesting data. Do M's main followers comprise mainly of a hard core of die hard devotees who have stayed for many years or is it a rapid turnover situation where people stay for a short time and leave, to be replaced by others who do the same? Knowing the age of current premies would give us an idea. Looking at the few premies who post here, they seem to be mainly old premies with a few new ones mixed in. Of course, the sample is too small to glean anything accurate. Even when Maharaji was at his peak in the seventies, considering he was the Lord of the Universe, his expansion was hardly meteoric. Others here have said that they think Maharaji wants to keep things small and managable. If he went for global propogation on a big scale he would encounter great difficulties. The press and media would hound him like they did Diana and he would quickly withdraw. He's always done that in the past when under media pressure. If his daughter took over (just speculating) I doubt that her ministry would be the same as her fathers. Her titles, 'Perfect Mistress' or 'Lady of the Universe' would be interesting though. I don't know her but she might lack the hard edge that Maharaji has. Lacking ruthlessness she might be unable to keep the small empire together or prevent others from taking control. Also, when Maharaji's empire was expanding before there was a very different scenario. Any successful religion must have a social structure that binds the devotees together. We used to have nightly satsang and premie communities. Without a similar structure there could be no expansion of this religion. I obviously don't have statistics, but from what I have seen, it appears that the bulk of Maharaji's dwindling number of followers are premies from the 70s. In looking at the audience at the 1996 Long Beach program from the video, the members looked to be middle-aged, for the most part. Lots of grey hair, expanding stomachs, spreading hips, etc. Also, I recognized a few faces from my involvement that ended 15 years ago. These are the followers who remember, and want, things like darshan, dancing by the lord and stuff like that. But M is in a real dilemma. To keep those premies glued to him, and donating money, he probably feels he needs to do some of that (also probably because he likes it too), but that kind of cult-like behavior tends to turn interested people off. So, at least in the West, it seems like he has to go to the outback of Australia to give darshan, and likely only the most fanatic, devoted followers would follow him there. I think that's the purpose of the purchase of 'remote lands.' Those are places where the press is less likely to find out about and report on that stuff. In addition, he banned satsang so that premies can't talk about that stuff either. I think the hope is, that he can do some propogation and that at least a small percentage will move over into the 'devotion' category where donations are the most lucrative. Admittedly, this is a very toned-down process from what M originally set out to do: bring knowledge to the entire world, but as Scott says, he's in a conservative phase now, trying to hold on to what he has, but still trying to ensnare new people to replace the inevitable premies who fall away. I think he has, at most, 10,000 followers in the states. Of these, some percentage are truly followers and go to programs to do more than see their friends, get a 'group high' and go home and forget the whole thing.
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Date: Mon, Mar 9, 1998 at 20:24:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Visible (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
[--- snip! ---] It's a bit revealing that any reality but the dogma is met so violently and with such dogged denials. Who was that guy that was threatened with death because he recognised that the moon circles the earth and the earth circles the sun. We get quickly entrenched in some concept and death to those that would discover more. [--- snip! ---] Are you thinking of Copernicus? It was Copernicus' idea (1473-1543), but Galileo was forced to recant his support and was put under house arrest. The church only recently absolved him of wrong-doing. Of course that was so long ago I can hardly remember. -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 08:36:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bb
Subject: Re: Millificent (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
Excuse me mili, you are not on any list of arguers. But the mishler argument is kind of weak. Not really matching up to your large scope. Bill, The thing is - I just have my hands full with practicing Knowledge, earning a living, and getting on with my life, to bother speculating about Maharaji's private life, and especially about some rumor of twenty-five years ago. It's well known that there was an all-out campaign by Mata Ji against Maharaji in the early seventies. I think the Mishler interview is just part of the fallout of that era. Try to be a little realistic and see that Maharaji really does lead a conservative, family life. He dresses conservatively, is polite in his speech, and takes a stance against drugs, booze and licenciousness. I've heard him, not once, comparing people who live for sensual pleasures with pigs who wallow in muck. I have a tape where he says that people were taking LSD 'in order to escape' in the sixties. He has always emphasized the value of this life and that being aware of it thru Knowledge is the greatest high.
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Date: Tues, Mar 10, 1998 at 12:28:12 (EST)
Poster: from a dark kali yugan who scowls
Email: **
To: Mili
Subject: at the light of the great dawning sun (Re: No nightmare scenario)
Message:
It's ok of course for him to have as many reasonable views as he can muster. His long term and evolving attempts to have himself enshrined as THE crowned lord that is bringing the breath to save the world, deserves a website that says we have lots of evidence that he is not the lord. And that his character contains this and that elements. If there was nothing to say but to repeat and amplify his selected excerpts, then this would have been a quickly expired forum. The power of life has not supported his attempts to bring peace on earth. His personal demons and his insistance on clinging on to his public identity of humanitarian leader/lord of the universe deserve analysis. If the lord that all these different religions are waiting for is maharaji, then that is not good. Because his personal behavior and words will affect generations and the behaviors of those generations. Which of maharaji's decendents will destroy the crown? We can't get rid of the dalia lama trip and a host of other false traditions and beliefs. I for one don't want to remain silent while maharji tries to get more and more people to believe that he is the great lord that came during the kali yuga to all the stupid people who couldn't see. And he made this great heroic effort to set up the foundation of spreading 'this knowledge' and he was there to kiss his feet and sing to him and serve him and -well, all the things the western premies did and believed. We have been there, done that, and we have something to say about that. I think a post on what narcissism is would be appropriate.
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 16:28:35 (EST)
Poster: larkin
Email:
To: silly people
Subject: snake oil
Message:
Oh the New Age is a-comin' It's right around the bend So all aboard li'l children For a game of 'let's pretend' With tarot pack in pocket With dowsing rod in hand Just let the spirit guide you To a strange and mystic land. There's witches in the woodland There's UFOs in the sky Crop circles on the hillsides And books to tell you why There's Druids 'neath the standing stones Practising their craft (You'd have to practise day and night To look so bloody daft) (chorus) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? Three hundred years since Newton Have we nothing more to show Than a world of quacks and charlatans All touting for your dough Did you ever get the feeling That you've been here before? Regression hypnotherapy Will take you back once more. Were you Rameses the Pharoah Or a monkey-puzzle tree? We'll bring you home for teatime And a hundred dollar fee. We've stocks of patent remedies Like homeopathy With no active ingredients A microscope can see The weaker the dilution The more it stings your purse At least we're safe in saying It can't make you any worse. (chorus 2) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? Two hundred years of reason - how many more in hope of buying a daily paper without a horoscope? You can take tea with the swami In robes of flowing silk Too bad the holy statues Have polished off the milk. You can join the Solar Temple Albeit for a while - Don't you know that ritual suicide Is coming back in style? Come bow before the Guru Receive his Holy Word There's dozens here to choose from Every one's The Living Lord A lifetime's loyal service Will one day surely pay For your master's marble mansion Down on Acapulco Bay. (chorus 3) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs etc... Oh the New Age is a-comin Like the Dark Ages before Where fear and superstition Shall be the natural law. But if you can't beat 'em, join 'em There's gold in them thar hills, So ROLL UP EVERBODY for your... magic potions, massage lotions, Egyptology, Mexican astrology, numerology, reflexology, new holistic, ancient, mystic, all-organic, non-satanic, (oops!) levitation, subliminal persuasion, scented candles, Jesus sandals, cover-up scandals, Jenny Randalls, UFO- chasing, inner-spacing, circle dancing, mantra chanting, channeling, flanneling, reason trammeling, Uri Gellers, fortune tellers, i-ching, you-ching, every bloody other ching, jetsam, flotsam, Lyall Watson, sixth-sense, incense, books full of nonsense, psychic rebirth, back to Mother Earth, pyramids, bangles, beads and spangles, ley-lines, Ber-mu-da triangles, Indian bells and witches' spells and Zens and Taos and here's ten thousand Cures for all known ills... (chorus 4) So come and get your snake oil... Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? One hundred years since Darwin... Have we nothing more to show Than a world of quacks and charlatans All touting for your dough?
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 21:01:54 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: larkin
Subject: Re: snake oil
Message:
Ah ha! An agent of the pope trying to persecute the new agers! this is so darn negative, and soooo very offensive. And I think it really shows a profound lack of sensitivity to our brothers and sisters who are sincerely seeking truth.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 01:10:22 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: larkin
Subject: Re: snake oil
Message:
Wow. Ever try writing songs, Larkin? Bet you could make a bundle.
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 10:14:39 (EST)
Poster: larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: snake oil
Message:
Ah ha! An agent of the pope trying to persecute the new agers! this is so darn negative, and soooo very offensive. And I think it really shows a profound lack of sensitivity to our brothers and sisters who are sincerely seeking truth. Not sure whether you are serious, John, but I seek to amuse, not to offend. I regret addressing the poem to 'silly people'. It might have been better to dedicate it to 'the unwary', since we are all capable of falling under the spell of unscrupulous people / belief systems given the right circumstances, as the existence of this forum testifies. If I thought I was going to be mistaken for an agent of the Pope, I would have thrown in some lines about 'Papal infallibility'. Regards
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 15:33:04 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: larkin
Subject: JUST JOKING!!!!! (Re: snake oil)
Message:
Wow! You sound like a real sensitive kind of human being! Sorry, I meant to add a signal, a symbol of frivolity, but I forgot. Let the good rhymes roll!
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Date: Sun, Mar 8, 1998 at 23:17:05 (EST)
Poster: a joke, very small
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: snake oil
Message:
Wow. Ever try writing songs, Larkin? Bet you could make a bundle. Yeah, I bet he's already on the pope's payroll!
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 15:55:06 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Reset Your Links
Message:
The forum is now reset and ready for more goodies. Be sure to reset your visited links so that all posts don't show up as having already been read. Netscape: Click on Options on your top Menu Select General Preferences Select Appearance Click on Expire Now to expire your links Internet Explorer: Click on View on your top Menu Select Options Select Navigation Click on Clear History to expire your links
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 17:34:46 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Archive is online (Re: Reset Your Links)
Message:
The latest archive (#8) is now online. I also added a White Pages entry for Carol Steiner.
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Ex-Premie.Org	Forum II Archive # 9
From: Mar 7, 1998	To: Mar 14, 1998	Page: 5 Of: 5