Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 9 | |
From: Mar 7, 1998 |
To: Mar 14, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 23:45:29 (EST)
Poster: FOR Email: To: Everyone Subject: STUDENT Message: Hello Student, You seem informed enough to have good maharaji related conversation with. How do you feel he would respond today on the subject of getting so furious with either Marolyn, or staff at the 96 december event? Yes he said he becomes stupid when he gets upset at other people's errors, but this is not the first time and really this has been a long running problem for him and it defeats a devotee to see him be small like that. I don't know if you are around tonight and the forum will have a blank slate tomorrow. I will repost if you dont respond tonight. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mili/All Subject: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis! Message: Dear Mili - I am trying hard to understand what you said to Rick in one of the threads below about your reasons for trying to shut down the newsgroup (alt. cult.maharaji.) Are you saying that you tried to shut it because of the name? You should probably know that that's not the name that Scott Perry orginally proposed or wanted, but that's the one he ended up with. I agree that there is no line between premies and ex-premies. However, as I've said before, I don't like or respect Maharaji. I DO have a problem with his behavior. I don't have a problem with yours - most of the time. I didn't like it when you made the effort to shut down the newsgroup, but I forgave you because I thought I understood why you did it. However, some of the people on here, like Rick (I think - I don't want to speak for him), are still angry about that. It really seemed like an attempt to subvert freedom of speech. I hope this doesn't make you angry, but your attempt to silence the ex-premies really seemed more like something that would happen in a repressive society. Sometimes I feel like YOU have drawn a circle and put all of us ex-premies in it. And as you said, we're not in there. We're NOT Nazis (some of us are even Jewish!) - we're just people like you, but we are people who have had different experiences than you and would like to be able to speak about it openly. Mili, as you know, I like you even though you tried to shut down the newsgroup. But I do think it might be worthwhile, in the interests of brotherhood at least, to admit that you might have made a mistake. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 03:35:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Katie Subject: Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis! Message: Katie, What's this thing about 'shutting down' your newsgroup? I just sent a simple, democratic E-mail to Deja News protesting about what I feel is a newsgroup with a pejorative title that stigmatizes people for their beliefs and practices and attempts to ostracize them from the rest of society. It was up to Deja News to decide what to do about it - I didn't force anyone's hand. Of course you are not Nazis. But I think you should be more conscientious of slapping this 'cult' thing around on people. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 03:42:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Katie Subject: Attaccking is a desperate defense (Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis!) Message: Why don't you just see that kind of attack as a simple defense? A lot of what is exposed here is way too challenging for any trustful believer. If anybody wants to stand this (for his own reason he doesn't tell), he has to react one way or another from time to time. There are (basically) 2/3 type of premies posting here: 1/ those trying to bring exes back to some reason, for various motives of their own 2/ those trying to protect Mr Rawat and his organizations in some illogical way 3/ those having hard time with m&k and trying to understand what's going on One way of looking at things of course. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 03:49:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex (sorry/previous post) Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Attacking is a desperate defense (Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis!) Message: Why don't you just see that kind of attack as a simple defense? A lot of what is exposed here is way too challenging for any trustful believer. If anybody wants to stand this (for his own reason he doesn't tell), he has to react one way or another from time to time. There are (basically) 2/3 type of premies posting here: 1/ those trying to bring exes back to some sense, for various motives of their own 2/ those trying to protect Mr Rawat and his organizations in some illogical way 3/ those having hard time with m&k and trying to understand what's going on One way of looking at things of course. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 05:15:35 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Attaccking is a desperate defense (Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis!) Message: Mr Ex, Let's get this straight - no one is attcking anyone here. We are just perusing 'freedom of speech' to state our opinions. But wouldn't you agree that 'freedom of speech' on the Internet is also frequently being abused in order to disseminate slander and untruth? By the way, I owe you one for calling me an 'idiot' a while back - I think you are just a sad, sorry piece of garbage with a wimp dick. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 05:43:57 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Attaccking is a desperate defense (Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis!) Message: You obviously use English words, but you don't use the usual language conventions. Your language has been altered by Mr Rawat's pseudo-philosophy, like mine has been, and I perfectly understand your (and my ex-) problem. That's why I think there is no real discussion possible with you. When you say to someone he is a nazi, there is a very strong unconscious content in this statement. As long as you won't be able do consider the unconscious content of what you say, we won't be able to really communicate, even though we exchange words. Mr Rawat would say that exchanging words is communicating, I disagree with him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 06:26:51 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Mili Subject: Totalitarian freedom speech (Re: Dear Mili, We are not Nazis!) Message: Now, beside what I (and other people) previously said, anybody saying 'We are just perusing 'freedom of speech' to state our opinions. But wouldn't you agree that 'freedom of speech' on the Internet is also frequently being abused in order to disseminate slander and untruth?' and trying to close an Internet newsgroup has to be considered as having a totalitarian understanding of what freedom is. It is obviously a very common rhetoric that many people use, other people appreciate it for what it's worth. In our case, our autocratic abusive irresponsible alcooholic guru has a lot of responsibility in our misbehavior. I still hold him as responsible. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM (EST) Message: We're at about 450 posts right now, so it's time to reset this dog. I'll do it tomorrow morning. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: humbleassistant.toBrian To: Brian Subject: Time Travelling (Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM (EST)) Message: We're at about 450 posts right now, so it's time to reset this dog. I'll do it tomorrow morning. We've also been transported back in time - have you noticed? Paradise is REALLY lost this time... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 21:54:25 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Cheese-Board Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Katie Subject: Re: Time Travelling (Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM (EST)) Message: Happy new year everybody and especially you Katie. I'm glad you got over your forum fatigue. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 23:04:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Sir David Cheese-Board Subject: Re: Time Travelling (Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM (EST)) Message: Thanks, David & a very happy new year to you. Looks like we are back in March again...for the moment, but that's the real New Year anyway, right? My forum fatique comes and goes - I think that I just need to take more breaks (also Brian is about to make me start working harder on the site... so you may not hear from me as often!) I've been meaning to mention your 'brick wall' post. I felt kind of bad that you thought people weren't interested in your posts - I'm assuming you mean the life after death posts? I actually like your posts very much even though I don't answer them that often. I've been kind of hands-off on the posts about life after death because I don't really KNOW how how I feel, although I have had two very intense experiences where I felt like I was communicating with someone after they had died (or at the point of their death). In earlier days on the forum, however, mentioning something like the possibility of life after death stirred up major arguments about evolutionary psychology and the existence of God, etc. Since most of this stuff isn't scientifically verifiable, the arguments rapidly degenerated into name-calling and the like. I am sure you know what I mean - maybe you were even in on some of these discussions? Anyway, just wanted to let you know that both your serious AND humorous posts are appreciated (I still break out laughing at the picture of Mili climbing the mountains near the Adriatic in boots with 4-inch heels - no offense to Mili, I hope. And with lovely Janice Fishface in her XL nylon underwear as his climbing partner!) I also liked the post about the dog very much, verifiable or not. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 07:23:25 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Katie Subject: Re: Time Travelling (Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM (EST)) Message: Look, I hate to dissapoint you - I NEVER wear highheeled shoes. However, I do have a thing for pantyhose and nylon underwear on my climbing partners (how'd you know about that???) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:18:59 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: Everyone Subject: BBJ as PM Message: Dear all: In case anyone is interested I'm finally getting around to some research at the Library of Congress on this Sant Mat lineage that Anon asked about recently. Will probably take about a week to get the material, however. My justification for it with my mentor is the Bal Bagwhan Ji connection. Like GMJ a number of people used to consider him God's incarnation, but unlike GMJ he took it into politics. Sant Mat is a relatively mainline sect of Hinduism, and because he had followers he was able to translate that into votes for the Congress party candidate, and use that power as leverage for a Finance Minister posting. The issue is... can he turn this into a general electoral appeal? I think not, even in India where the rules of politics are like water running uphill. Nonetheless it is a scary thought. Imagine BBJ as PM of India! Yikes! It might be enough to provoke a reconciliation. Double Yikes!! -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:38:45 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Everyone Subject: Suicidal Premies Message: Many people from all walks of life's experiences joined GMJ, granted. A few had mental problems way before they hooked up with GMJ. Upon meeting premies, hope was temporarily restored for them with the prospect of Knowledge. These people were fundamentally unstable mentally and emotionally. GMJ was like a pain killer for them, not a panacea for their mental illness. I was close with a girl (knew from childhood) who I brought to GMJ, she became an aspirant for several months. I never knew she was mentally unstable until I got a call from the psychiatric ward of a NY hospital. She attempted suicide and not for the first time. When I visited her, she told me her doctor insisted she not associate with premies. Yet, I was there giving her satsang, perhaps false hope. What this girl needed was medocation and intense therapy, not me praising the gr Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:42:06 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad (Continued) Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Suicidal Premies Message: Many people from all walks of life's experiences joined GMJ, granted. A few had mental problems way before they hooked up with GMJ. Upon meeting premies, hope was temporarily restored for them with the prospect of Knowledge. These people were fundamentally unstable mentally and emotionally. GMJ was like a pain killer for them, not a panacea for their mental illness. I was close with a girl (knew from childhood) who I brought to GMJ, she became an aspirant for several months. I never knew she was mentally unstable until I got a call from the psychiatric ward of a NY hospital. She attempted suicide and not for the first time. When I visited her, she told me her doctor insisted she not associate with premies. Yet, I was there giving her satsang, perhaps false hope. What this girl needed was medocation and intense therapy, not me praising the gr What this girl needed was medication and intense therapy, not me praising the grace of the lord. Anyway, I'm writing this to illustrate the perspective that GMJ may not have been directly responsible for most of these premies' suicides. These unfortunate devotees were already hanging on the fence, probably years before encountering GMJ. That friend of mine did leave GMJ, but guess what? A few years later she finally succeeded at killing herself. I suppose everyone failed to save this person. GMJ's mind control is very intense and destructive. It does take a healthy, strong mind to survive a departure from such a deep rooted programing. ****** Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:36 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Suicidal Premies Message: Many people from all walks of life's experiences joined GMJ, granted. A few had mental problems way before they hooked up with GMJ. Upon meeting premies, hope was temporarily restored for them with the prospect of Knowledge. These people were fundamentally unstable mentally and emotionally. GMJ was like a pain killer for them, not a panacea for their mental illness. I was close with a girl (knew from childhood) who I brought to GMJ, she became an aspirant for several months. I never knew she was mentally unstable until I got a call from the psychiatric ward of a NY hospital. She attempted suicide and not for the first time. When I visited her, she told me her doctor insisted she not associate with premies. Yet, I was there giving her satsang, perhaps false hope. What this girl needed was medocation and intense therapy, not me praising the gr John, I have tried to respond to this thread twice today and have benn unable to get my posts to connect to the server(?) This is my last attempt. To summarize what I have already written twice today: I agree with you except that my friend was very stable in my opinion, prior to involvement with DLM. He had many fine qualities: good looks, intelligence, sensitivity, etc. He did have a physical illness which he was seeking help for. PAM recommended that he go out of the country to some quack place to receive injections of some unknown source. Family and friends expressed concern over this, but they were ignored (they were too 'in their minds' to offer any healthy advise, right?) To make a long story short, he was more seriously ill following the quack injections and then beginning to get depressed about this whole process. PAM then suggested a radical diet (now known to exacerbate depression). In effect PAM was giving out medical advice that it was unqualified to give-with blessings from M, as I was told. My friend was responsible for listening to and going with this CRAZY health plan, but he was programmed. There were other things that I believe added to the stress (daily regime of meditation demanded by M, trying to get the money up to make it to the programs, guilt over not being able to give fully to M due to children and spouse, not being able to move into the ashram, not being able to fully dedicate to the service, etc.) It was a long time ago. Do I think that he would be alive today without DLM. I believe so, but I will never know for sure. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: John Cavad (Continued) Subject: Re: Suicidal Premies Message: John - I agree that some premies had psychiatric illnesses before receiving knowledge. However, at the time I received knowledge (early 1970's), knowledge was touted to be the panacea for all mental illnesses. People were encouraged to do satsang, service and meditation rather than to seek professional help. The general feeling among the premies I knew was that many psychiatric illnesses were 'in the mind' and could be cured by devotion to M. Also, a lot of premies I knew thought that these psychiatric illnesses could be cured by manipulating the body (massage, macrobiotic diet, Bach flower remedies, herbs, etc). This may have helped in some cases, but I don't believe it helped everyone who had problems. I also knew people who felt that it would be 'weak' and 'not relying on GMJ's grace' to take any kind of medicine (even herbal teas and so forth.) I have never held GMJ directly responsible for premie suicides. I do feel that the rigid ideas associated with the correct practice of knowledge, and with 'real' devotion to GMJ, did drive some people crazy. Perhaps they were already 'on the fence', as you say, but following GMJ didn't help, and in a few cases I know of, actually hurt the person. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 21:31:03 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: John Cavad Subject: Church has culpability (Re: Suicidal Premies) Message: [--snip--] >I'm writing this to illustrate the perspective that GMJ may not have been directly responsible for most of these premies' suicides. These unfortunate devotees were already hanging on the fence, probably years before encountering GMJ. That friend of mine did leave GMJ, but guess what? A few years later she finally succeeded at killing herself. I suppose everyone failed to save this person. GMJ's mind control is very intense and destructive. It does take a healthy, strong mind to survive a departure from such a deep rooted programing. I don't follow. So far as I'm concerned, if the Roman Catholic church's stance on homosexuality does not include the inevitability: that homosexuals will be born to Catholic couples -- they are directly culpable for any mental health problems the family is having related to acceptance of their homosexual members. The church is guilty of a number of suicides, and from a much wider palate than just sexuality-related issues. The church pits man against God. Says man is bad in God's eyes (unless man does what the church says God wants for man and -- more to the point -- of and from man. Including collections in the basket on Sunday. To hell with representative forms of theological governance. Let each man and woman establish their own relationship to God; who as God and if God exists is fully able to communicate God's will to the individual -- without the necessary intervention of a professional clergy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:56:38 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Everyone Subject: This Forum is a Circus? Message: It's amusing how the premies and the fundamentalist Christians are now debating with each other on OUR forum, isn't it? I think I'll join the French Cooking Forum now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:24:38 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Registered for Indian Circus? (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: Hi guys! did you register for the coming Indian 3 days program? 2,000 westerners are going there for BigM's darshan! Get your registration form from EV! (can't start a new thread .....) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:47:23 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus? (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: No need to start a new thread, Mr. Ex. Your topic is quite appropriate under the title of Circus. I never went to India before, I'd like to go now. Have you been there and not gotten sick? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:11:35 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus? (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: I've been there I don't remember how many time! YOU GET SICK EVERY TIME : more or less. The pollution is awful, the food is terrible, the water is polluted everywhere. Even if you're very cautious, it's very likely that you'll catch something. The conditions are not too bad on BigM's property, but many premies have gotten sick there, some even died. To tell the truth, the conditions on BigM's land are wonderful for India. Lots of premies have done a lot of hard work. Tar on the roads, etc I tried to make some calculations of how much profit BigM makes every time: nearly half a million every program. Mostly from westerners of course. 2,000 of them, giving/donating an average of $ 200 each, make some calculations. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:18:06 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus? (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: Mr. Ex, I bet you never saw more than the hotel and the satsang/program hall? I would love to go to India one day, but as a rich tourist. So I will have to pass on the upcoming program. $200 donation per premie? Is that for real? Is that the cost of a ticket or just the recommended personal donation? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:29:46 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus? (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: Mr. Ex, I bet you never saw more than the hotel and the satsang/program hall? I would love to go to India one day, but as a rich tourist. So I will have to pass on the upcoming program. $200 donation per premie? Is that for real? Is that the cost of a ticket or just the recommended personal donation? John, Mr. Ex: I have a plan to spend my honeymoon in the Vale of Kashmir, which has undergone some political unrest recently and where poverty is rampant. It is one of the most beautiful places on the planet, though. Problem is, I still have to get married. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:11:58 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus and Maya (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: >Mr. Ex, I bet you never saw more than the hotel and the satsang/program hall? I've been twice in Prem Nagar (1972 & 1974), visited northern parts of India (by train), went to the Jumhri Tilaya ashram (Bihar) in 74, visited some holy places (Benares, Bod Gaya, Rishikesh), even traveled by plane to Himashal Pradesh (Manali & Kulu, where you can freely harvest daily tons of ganja), slept in quite decent hotels, and on the floor of the ashrams (Prem Nagar, and Delhi). I've visited Hindu temples, swam in the Ganges, went to Bombay, went to the Delhi ashram for a dozen of programs, and had some nice time in the Maya (and with some girlfriends). >I would love to go to India one day, but as a rich tourist. Rich tourist spend more moeny. Same Indian treatment. >So I will have to pass on the upcoming program. $200 donation per premie? 1st you have to register: 85 pounds to access the site. Then you'll have to pay for food and water, on the site, coffee etc. You'll buy plenty of nice souvenirs in the 'Indian Bazar' of the ashram, etc, make a donation for Darshan. 200 $ is a minimum as you can see. When all expenses are already paid by the tens of thousands of Indian premies & aspirants, you can see how much BigM gets in UK (where the registration money is sent) and in India. >Is that for real? Is that the cost of a ticket or just the recommended personal donation? Ticket: 85 pounds (UK) The rest is welcome. You can of course bring your sandwiches and water from outside, strongly discouraged by EV. There is also a 'de luxe' housing for rich premies, on the site, close to BigM's residence, with a lot of darshan opportunities. Only a few hundred beds. You'll pay approx $ 400 for that type of facility. Make some calculations now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:16:23 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus and Maya (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: >When all expenses are already paid by the tens of thousands of Indian premies & aspirants, you can see how much BigM gets in UK (where the registration money is sent) and in India. Your money calculations are pitiful and misinformed. Ever been to a $10K political dinner? Now lets see. 1 ticket would cover the door for 50 Western premies. I went to India in 72 also. Remember how much it cost? Mr. Ex are you really that big a cheap skate still? I'll bet you have contributed in the past and done your share. That is why your current concern with petty cash suprises me. I am still happy to contribute. I enjoy being able to offer a little. The appropriate people to ask about the $200 fee are the people who are going to India. I doubt they are as petty as you. I won't be going to India but hopefully can make it to a program in Europe this year. England will be the most likely destination. CD Robots get in for free Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:37:03 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus and Maya (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: Mr. Ex, thank you for your informative post. I am proud of you over the fact that you actually got to see India. It is quite eye opening to experience foreign lands, isn't it? Best Wishes, John Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:38:08 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: CD Subject: Re: Registered for Indian Circus and Maya (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: Things have changed a lot since 1972, even in India! As I've been personally involved in these events preparations and setup many times, I think I have every necessary information to say what I said. Beside this, most of what I've 'revealed' here has been confirmed by other persons. What have you been involved in (EV) since 72? Why don't you ever talk about it? Why don't you tell us what usually happens during these participation meetings with Yorum Weisz, david Smith and some of these other guys? Why don't you give us some juicy details as there are so many of them to recall? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:58:22 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: CD Subject: Unregistered Tax payers (Re: This Forum is a Circus? ) Message: I would say that the only qualified person to state where all this money goes is IRS. Their problem might very likely be that to understand the whole mechanism they'll have to make an audit in several companies in the US, UK, Switzerland, Australia, India and maybe few other countries. I hope they're going to make it SOON Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 05:14:57 (EST)
Poster: David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Not misinformation or a lie Message: Here is the part of the post from the aspirant, which I mentioned below. The date and message ID are on it so it can be checked on Dejanews. Subject: I was rejected : ( for Knowledge From: cmoore@pacificnet.net (Christopher Moore) Date: 1997/10/19 Message-Id: <3449911c.0@dnews.pacificnet.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult Haven't read this newsgroup for quite a while, but thought I'd make a comment. It was an astonishing experience for me today to attend a Maharaji aspirant meeting in order to request being granted the privilege of gaining 'knowledge'. I have had the satisfaction of attending meetings and watching Maharaji's videos. No demands were ever made and I did find a ne Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 05:27:14 (EST)
Poster: David Email: To: Everyone Subject: Not misinformation or a lie (Part 2) (Re: Not misinformation or a lie) Message: Message-Id: <3449911c.0@dnews.pacificnet.net> I have had the satisfaction of attending meetings and watching Maharaji's videos. No demands were ever made and I did find a new ability to calm my mind. In the very beginning Maharaji said that what he has to offer is not a religion and does not conflict with any religion. I had never felt any pressure -- only a gentle promise. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 05:34:35 (EST)
Poster: David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Not misinformation or a lie (Part 3) (Re: Not misinformation or a lie) Message: In the meeting the instructor made an absolute point to have all of us repeatedly insist that we had no other religion or spirituality - explaining that that would conflict with our dedication to Maharaji. I found this to be a very important lie, because obviously many people would not have been interested if Maharaji had made it clear up front that he would accept no competing religions or affiliations. In the beginning he claimed otherwise. End of newsgroup extract. Sorry it took three goes to get it posted. It seems that this forum now won't accept pasted text beyond a few bytes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 06:18:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: David Subject: Re: Not misinformation or a lie Message: Well, its hard to refute that, but I can only tell you that I have heard M himself state quite the opposite, that 'you can be a Christian and still practice this Knowledge, be a Muslim and still practice this Knowledge, be a Jew and still practice this Knowledge, be an atheist and still practice this Knowledge,...' It's not mine to say, but this initiator was probably thinking that he was doing a service to Mji by saying that, while in fact he was doing a dis-service to him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:44:03 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: David Subject: Re: Not misinformation or a lie (Part 3) (Re: Not misinformation or a lie) Message: I was also told that any and all religions were 'compatable' with K. That is one of the things that appealed to me at the start. Not because I was into my religion but because I felt and still feel that all religions are just different was to the same end to allow differing personalities different ways to relate. I don't recall any backing out of that statement though at that time. 1973-7 Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:01:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: David and all Subject: Re: Not misinformation or a lie Message: The entire text of 'I was rejected for Knowledge' is on the site at: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/rejected.htm (Someone can make that a link if they want). It's interesting reading. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:21:51 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: David Subject: Re: Not misinformation or a lie (Part 3) (Re: Not misinformation or a lie) Message: In the meeting the instructor made an absolute point to have all of us repeatedly insist that we had no other religion or spirituality - explaining that that would conflict with our dedication to Maharaji. I found this to be a very important lie, because obviously many people would not have been interested if Maharaji had made it clear up front that he would accept no competing religions or affiliations. In the beginning he claimed otherwise. End of newsgroup extract. Sorry it took three goes to get it posted. It seems that this forum now won't accept pasted text beyond a few bytes. I know it was the public statements of M that you could practice any religion and still practice knowledge. But the reality was quite different. That's why one almost never saw it happening. Maybe that is different now. In the Long Beach 1996 satsang video I saw, M openly ridiculed other religions, stating that they were just based on the concepts made up after a perfect master dies. For example, he made fun of Christianity via a television commercial about popcorn which he said demonstrated the stupid ideas that religions give people about heaven. Look at the video for yourself if you don't believe me. While he never said that you can't or shouldn't practice a religion, the message he's giving is chrystal clear. Also, I mentioned being in a knowledge selection in the mid-70s with Mahatma Padarthanand. He rejected at least one person from receiving knowledge because, he said, she was still involved with a religion (christianity) and that those practices might conflict with M's agya, and, further, because she said she could not say that she dedicated her life to M (which he required before you could receive knowledge) because she said that would be placing a man above her deovtion to Jesus. So, she was rejected for knowledge. BTW -- a guy I worked with also was asking for knowledge at the same time. The guy was black. Mahatma Ji later told me that he wasn't ready for knowledge because he had smoked dope within the previous month. 'What kind of devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji is that?' he said. He went on to say that black people were like 'people from Tahiti' just into bodily pleasures, and hence it was difficult for them to be ready for knowledge. It was one of the more racist (and stupid) things I ever heard. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 01:06:30 (EST)
Poster: Andrew Petrou Email: To: Everyone Subject: Choice Message: Hey! I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do it! Noone ever forced me into parting with money. Ever heard of CHOICE? You were always free to practice any religion you liked.Weren't you even listening? I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 02:31:19 (EST)
Poster: David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Andrew Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Andrew, do the Christians these days still believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived? And what or who was Jesus? Was he God or just another mortal like us. If Christians want to blazen their message all over these pages then they should be prepared to answer these sort of questions. Please answer the above. Thank you. By the way, aspirants receiving knowledge these days must promise to drop all other religious beliefs in order to follow Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:16:00 (EST)
Poster: megumby@hotmail.com Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Andrew Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Hi Andrew, You wrote: > Hey! > I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some > of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do > it! I am curious, why were these times with m some of the best of your life? Are you still devoted to m? Or do you view k as just a set of exercises, like say yoga, tai chi, qigong, etc? What is your relationship with m now? > Noone ever forced me into parting with money. > Ever heard of CHOICE? > You were always free to practice any religion you > liked.Weren't you even listening? > I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. I am curious, what does it mean to you to be a practising Christian? Grace and God be with you -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:23:55 (EST)
Poster: Petrou Email: To: David Subject: Re: Choice Message: We all have to decide for ourselves.As far as I am concerned the only virgin in the whole Bible was Jesus! GMJ was the one who taught me to respect all religion and now they are all catching up.I think most of the religions have something worthwhile to offer.I have a deep respect for the Bahai's,the Bhuddists etc and any group that promotes tolerance and peace. We are all sons of God just like Jesus. I have been a member of THE MISSION since 1973. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:28:45 (EST)
Poster: Petrou Email: To: megumby@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Choice Message: Hi Gumby! Gee you really bend with the flow! I had a lot of really good experiences with GMJ.I have never spoke personally to him but have always felt close. And yes meditation is a tool that is now taught in every field and religion on earth. I feel the same now as I always have about GMJ and yet I have not been able to attend regular events. He is a really great person and his advice has helped me untold tmes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:32:57 (EST)
Poster: Petrou Email: To: David Subject: Re: Choice Message: Andrew, do the Christians these days still believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived? And what or who was Jesus? Was he God or just another mortal like us. If Christians want to blazen their message all over these pages then they should be prepared to answer these sort of questions. Please answer the above. Thank you. By the way, aspirants receiving knowledge these days must promise to drop all other religious beliefs in order to follow Maharaji. OOPS! I forget to mention that no-one has ever been asked to drop any religion ever in my whole 20 years association with GMJ. Misinformation is not a good tactic in discussion so you must be prepared to discuss this point. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:34:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: David Subject: Re: Choice Message: By the way, aspirants receiving knowledge these days must promise to drop all other religious beliefs in order to follow Maharaji. That's just another blatant lie to add to the rumors and fabrications of your 'anti-cult' campaign, David. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:45:49 (EST)
Poster: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Hi Andrew, You mentioned that m is a really great person, what do you think about all the folks on this forum who think that m is a fake, a fraud? Is there any merit in their accusations? Also, I am curious as to what you mean when you say that you are a practising Christian? I'm not picking on you, just curious. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:50:45 (EST)
Poster: The Cheese Policeman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Petrou wrote: 'GMJ was the one who taught me to respect all religion and now they are all catching up.' When did you know Maharaji? An aspirent posted here recently and said how shocked she was that when she went to ask for knowledge, she was told by the instructor that she must have no beliefs or affiliations with ANY religion. This really shook her. Interestingly enough, people think of Jesus as a virgin but there's clear evidence that he fathered at least one child with Mary Magdalene. After Jesus's death, Mary and the child wnt to live in the Jewish community in France. The blood line of Jesus has been protected for two thousand years. First by the Knights Templar and later by a secret society. I mentioned this in a thread below but thought the Christians here might like to see it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 04:02:43 (EST)
Poster: Cheese Policeman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Petrou & Mili Subject: Re: Choice Message: Petrou wrote: 'Misinformation is not a good tactic in discussion so you must be prepared to discuss this point.' And Mili said I was lying. OK then, I will FIND THE POST on the Dejanews archives or on the Forum (I can't remember at present where I read it. Anyway, I will find the post written by an aspirant and put it here on the forum. I am not lying or spreading rumours. I am telling it like it is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:47:50 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Petrou said 'As far as I am concerned the only virgin in the whole Bible was Jesus! ' Apparently Petrou hasn't read some of the postings from 3/12! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:58:58 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Andrew Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: Hey! I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do it! Noone ever forced me into parting with money. Ever heard of CHOICE? You were always free to practice any religion you liked.Weren't you even listening? I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. Well, Andrew, you are very lucky you didn't give 'one cent' to the Mission (BTW -- give any money to Maharaji personally?) And I'm glad you had a 'good time.' Maybe the 'good time' didn't cost you much. Sorry, but saying it was all just a 'choice' and that no one was 'forced' are utterly simplistic statements and I'm sure even you know it is MUCH more complicated than that. I also was involved since 1973, and lived in the ashram for almost 10 years, being celibate, turning over all my money, trashing my career and family, etc. GMJ portrayed himself to be god incarnate, the messiah of our time, come to save the entire world. If you had faith in him, like I did, that he was telling the truth, you tended to listen to what he had to say. And, he said to dedicate and surrender your life to HIM if you wanted to true experience of what he had to offer, and, for example, he offered the ashram as a means to do that. So, if you believed that, if you had faith in that, what damn CHOICE, did you have? There was no choice. You just surrendered EVERYTHING to him, including your money, your freedom, your sex life, your relationship life, your ties to your family, and , of course your RELIGION..... I have personally heard GMJ many times, as recently as 1996, denigrate religions as the worthless practices of dead perfect masters. He SAID, you could practice other religions and still follow him, but that wasn't true in reality. Now I know that M is much more covert now about talking about total devotion and surrender, and there aren't ashrams anymore, but really, those are changes in his cult, that I think were made for him to try to hold his dwindling trip together, mostly for financial purposes. But I think it's great that you like being a practicing Christian and that you love GMJ. Do you think GMJ is the messiah, like he used to portray himself to be, and which many premies still believe? If so, how do you reconcile that with the Christian belief that Jesus is the messiah? Or, have you bought the ridiculous idea that Maharaji used to be the messiah, but isn't anymore? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:01:52 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Petrou Subject: Re: Choice Message: I have personally been in knowledge selections in the 70s in which people who were practicing other religions, and who weren't able to say they dedicated their lives to Guru Maharaj Ji (because that conflicted with their religion), they weren't given knowledge. In my involvement with DLM for 10 years, I never once met a premie who was involved with GMJ and believed he was the perfect master, who also practiced another religion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 14:45:59 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Andrew Petrou Subject: Petrou (Re: Choice) Message: Hey! I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do it! Noone ever forced me into parting with money. Ever heard of CHOICE? You were always free to practice any religion you liked.Weren't you even listening? I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. Good luck explaining and defending a love relationship with Maharaji. People see and hear what they are expecting to see and hear in Maharaji. If they truly believe Maharaji is insincere, nothing you, I, or Maharaji says will sway this expectation. It is only through listening without expectation that any truth (with or without the capital 'T') can sink in. On no! Did I just say become mindless robots and accept everything Maharaji says?! Ohmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmmm Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:12:07 (EST)
Poster: john Email: higginsons@demon.co.uk To: Student Subject: Re: Petrou (Re: Choice) Message: Hey! I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do it! Noone ever forced me into parting with money. Ever heard of CHOICE? You were always free to practice any religion you liked.Weren't you even listening? I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. Good luck explaining and defending a love relationship with Maharaji. People see and hear what they are expecting to see and hear in Maharaji. If they truly believe Maharaji is insincere, nothing you, I, or Maharaji says will sway this expectation. It is only through listening without expectation that any truth (with or without the capital 'T') can sink in. On no! Did I just say become mindless robots and accept everything Maharaji says?! Ohmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmmm 1974 -1979 was a long fairy-tale.Nothing has really been any better ever since. But thats Ok Its just a different reality. Its cool. ive been to heaven, i know where its is. my present is my 'controlled folly'!GM really did give me that first vowel, that missing peice and eeven now,all these years down the road i can still say that all my questions ended at that point. Imagine a life without it!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 15:14:37 (EST)
Poster: john Email: higginsons@demon.co.uk To: Student Subject: Re: Petrou (Re: Choice) Message: Hey! I never gave one cent to the MISSION and yet I had some of the best times in my life with GMJ:someone had to do it! Noone ever forced me into parting with money. Ever heard of CHOICE? You were always free to practice any religion you liked.Weren't you even listening? I'm a practising Christian and I still love you GMJ. Good luck explaining and defending a love relationship with Maharaji. People see and hear what they are expecting to see and hear in Maharaji. If they truly believe Maharaji is insincere, nothing you, I, or Maharaji says will sway this expectation. It is only through listening without expectation that any truth (with or without the capital 'T') can sink in. On no! Did I just say become mindless robots and accept everything Maharaji says?! Ohmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmm....ohmmmmmmmmmmmm 1974 -1979 was a long fairy-tale.Nothing has really been any better ever since. But thats Ok Its just a different reality. Its cool. ive been to heaven, i know where its is. my present is my 'controlled folly'!GM really did give me that first vowel, that missing peice and eeven now,all these years down the road i can still say that all my questions ended at that point. Imagine a life without it!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 21:24:24 (EST)
Poster: More false names, Email: To: john Subject: more foolish satsang (Re: Choice) Message: this is just the same idiot posting under different names. cd is obviously impenetrably dense, mili is a hopeless zealot, the rest of these hapless so-called devotees can try to convince us all they want. The IRS is coming to pay a call. And monied christians will be brought to bear on this fake lord issue. You can love this mother-hateing guy all you want. Worship an icon, an image, a narcissist, a false god. No one can stop you but he can be stopped,limited, met at every turn eventually with his own falsehood. And the band played on. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:00:14 (EST)
Poster: Since when is not being able to have sex Email: aoa To: Barnacle Bill The Sailor Subject: a good thing? Sex is great. I encourage all to try it, at least once, before passing judgement on it. (Re: Choice) Message: xtc Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:11:43 (EST)
Poster: Atta boy, JW. First rate post! Email: aoa To: JW Subject: Now this is a good post -- it's what makes this site worth reading. Thus speaketh And On Anand Ji to the dish cycles. (Re: Choice) Message:
Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:28:45 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: AOA Ji Subject: Whoa, boy! (Re: Choice) Message: AOAJi Amok - Get a grip, boy. Brian's got to archive this thing. He's already customized the forum archive format for your and BB's posts, but I don't think these posts are gonna make it! Take care, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:08:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: This topic was brought up in the 'premie.com/fable' thread below, but I thought it was worthy of its own separate thread. A lot of the ex-premies on here are angry at Maharaji and Maharaji's organization. I think this is healthy, and a normal part of the healing process. Robyn has brought up the fact that we are all responsible for our own lives, which I think is true. I think the feeling of anger at Maharaji, and Maharaji's organization CAN be integrated with the fact that we are eventually all responsible for our own lives and our choices within those lives. I think ex-premies are similar to abused children. If abused children won't admit that the abuse occurred, then they never heal. They often go crazy or abuse other people or beings. I think it's important to admit that the abuse occurred, to get angry as hell about it, and then to get over it and get on with your life. I have no patience with people who tell ex-premies to 'get on with their lives' without letting them express their anger first. Everyone who posts on here is probably familiar with the five steps of the grieving process (but I'll say them again...): denial, then anger, then bargaining, then depression, then acceptance. A lot of people on here have lost parts of their lives because of Maharaji. I think it's important to get angry at him. I also think it's important to get past the anger, because as long as you still feel a strong emotion about someone, you're still emotionally tied to him (or her) in some way (those of you who have ex-whatevers will know what I mean!). Some of the people who post on here have gotten through their anger towards Maharaji. Some haven't. Some have a lot more anger to express than other, too. Hope this isn't too preachy (yuck). It's just something I've been wanting to say for a while. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:26:22 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: This topic was brought up in the 'premie.com/fable' thread below, but I thought it was worthy of its own separate thread. A lot of the ex-premies on here are angry at Maharaji and Maharaji's organization. I think this is healthy, and a normal part of the healing process. Robyn has brought up the fact that we are all responsible for our own lives, which I think is true. I think the feeling of anger at Maharaji, and Maharaji's organization CAN be integrated with the fact that we are eventually all responsible for our own lives and our choices within those lives. I think ex-premies are similar to abused children. If abused children won't admit that the abuse occurred, then they never heal. They often go crazy or abuse other people or beings. I think it's important to admit that the abuse occurred, to get angry as hell about it, and then to get over it and get on with your life. I have no patience with people who tell ex-premies to 'get on with their lives' without letting them express their anger first. Everyone who posts on here is probably familiar with the five steps of the grieving process (but I'll say them again...): denial, then anger, then bargaining, then depression, then acceptance. A lot of people on here have lost parts of their lives because of Maharaji. I think it's important to get angry at him. I also think it's important to get past the anger, because as long as you still feel a strong emotion about someone, you're still emotionally tied to him (or her) in some way (those of you who have ex-whatevers will know what I mean!). Some of the people who post on here have gotten through their anger towards Maharaji. Some haven't. Some have a lot more anger to express than other, too. Hope this isn't too preachy (yuck). It's just something I've been wanting to say for a while. On the topic of abuse: If you could only see the care he takes to help people understand Knowledge and enjoy it. I've seen it and it always blows my mind. Having said that, he is however a limited resource and perhaps the type of care you wanted wasn't available. For example, I know one ex-premie who wanted to walk in the garden with his master and sit at his feet. Maharaji was too busy flying around the world telling people about K for that so he found one that could accomodate his wish. Moral: You can't always get what you want, but if you try some time you just might find you get what you need. (Okay, it's not mine but you get the point.) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:33:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: On the topic of abuse: If you could only see the care he takes to help people understand Knowledge and enjoy it. I've seen it and it always blows my mind. Having said that, he is however a limited resource and perhaps the type of care you wanted wasn't available. For example, I know one ex-premie who wanted to walk in the garden with his master and sit at his feet. Maharaji was too busy flying around the world telling people about K for that so he found one that could accomodate his wish. Moral: You can't always get what you want, but if you try some time you just might find you get what you need. (Okay, it's not mine but you get the point.) I never had the chance to meet or speak to Maharaji personally, so I can't contradict what you say. I never felt like I was 'entitled' to be close to him at all - only really holy premies got to do that, and I knew I wasn't one. Actually, what I wanted was to not feel guilty that I was never doing enough meditation or giving enough satsang or doing enough service. (Also, I was really unhappy - perhaps I'm just one of those people who 'knowledge' doesn't work for). When I felt free of that guilt, then I felt so much better that I never wanted to (or could) go backwards. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:42:31 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: On the topic of abuse: If you could only see the care he takes to help people understand Knowledge and enjoy it. I've seen it and it always blows my mind. Having said that, he is however a limited resource and perhaps the type of care you wanted wasn't available. For example, I know one ex-premie who wanted to walk in the garden with his master and sit at his feet. Maharaji was too busy flying around the world telling people about K for that so he found one that could accomodate his wish. Moral: You can't always get what you want, but if you try some time you just might find you get what you need. (Okay, it's not mine but you get the point.) I never had the chance to meet or speak to Maharaji personally, so I can't contradict what you say. I never felt like I was 'entitled' to be close to him at all - only really holy premies got to do that, and I knew I wasn't one. Actually, what I wanted was to not feel guilty that I was never doing enough meditation or giving enough satsang or doing enough service. (Also, I was really unhappy - perhaps I'm just one of those people who 'knowledge' doesn't work for). When I felt free of that guilt, then I felt so much better that I never wanted to (or could) go backwards. Katie I have met him personally and I am certainly not one of the 'holy ones'. Look at my posts for crying out loud. Are they the sign of a holy person. My experience has always been that being close to Maharaji and being involved in his work is the most fun. And I never feel inadequate around him no matter how little I'm upholding my end. He has a way of making you feel good about yourself. I fully support your recognition of the need to free yourself from guilt. If you are free from your guilt then I congratulate you. As I said to Rick that is completely different from my experience with K. For me, my guilt comes when I hurt people, especially the ones I love. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 20:50:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Well, Aesop, I appreciate what you said. When I finally realized that I didn't have to follow Maharaji any more, I felt like I'd been let out of jail. (Seriously. I had a vision that I'd been following a long tunnel in a cave and it had ended in a dead end. When I decided to renounce knowledge, I felt like I had broken through into green grass and fresh air. I actually saw this.) I have a problem with people that say Maharaji is the only way and that Maharaji is for everyone. In my experience, that isn't true. I felt like I was intimidated into following Maharaji because he made threats that I'd go insane if I received knowledge and didn't practice it (the rotten vegetables, etc.) However, I am not trying to persuade premies (like you, I assume) who are happy with following Maharaji not to do it. I just want to be able to tell my side of the story. Regards from Katie P.S. Re VP's loss - he's talking about someone he loved that committed suicide. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:02:34 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Well, Aesop, I appreciate what you said. When I finally realized that I didn't have to follow Maharaji any more, I felt like I'd been let out of jail. (Seriously. I had a vision that I'd been following a long tunnel in a cave and it had ended in a dead end. When I decided to renounce knowledge, I felt like I had broken through into green grass and fresh air. I actually saw this.) I have a problem with people that say Maharaji is the only way and that Maharaji is for everyone. In my experience, that isn't true. I felt like I was intimidated into following Maharaji because he made threats that I'd go insane if I received knowledge and didn't practice it (the rotten vegetables, etc.) However, I am not trying to persuade premies (like you, I assume) who are happy with following Maharaji not to do it. I just want to be able to tell my side of the story. Regards from Katie P.S. Re VP's loss - he's talking about someone he loved that committed suicide. I am sorry for VP's loss. I can only say that the person must have looked to Maharaji for something that was lacking in their lives. Maybe it was something K couldn't fulfill. Maybe the person's problems were deeper. Knowledge is no substitute for professional help. I also have a problem when people say Maharaji is the only way. Knowledge is not for everybody. But it is for some. Do you want to stand in the way of those people finding their happiness? Moral: If you really care you have to be very sensitive to the needs of others and not pollute their life with your baggage. You therefore have to be sure that you are on solid ground before you make a stand. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:24:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: I agree with your last statement very much. I try to only speak from my own experience, although sometimes I do try to speak for others who can't (because they're dead.) Regarding what you said about VP's loss: at the time when I and VP's friend received knowledge (early 70's), it was told that knowledge COULD cure all psychological illnesses, and that knowledge WAS a substitute for professional help. I was quite disappointed when that turned out not to be true, and I blamed myself rather than Maharaji. Fortunately, I was able to leave without feeling like it was my fault that I didn't make it. I also have a premie friend who committed suicide, and I feel like he thought it was HIS FAULT that he still had problems after receiving knowledge. Of course I don't want to stand in the way of people finding their happiness. I just want to tell my experience, so people will understand that it's not all gravy from here on in. I feel that if I stick to telling my own experience then I am on solid ground, as you put it. I don't want there to be any more premie suicides. I'm sure you don't either. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 21:41:50 (EST)
Poster: Steve A Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Dear Katie I too felt anger but I found the anger I had was directed at myself for being such a fool to be sucked in by it all. Katie, its OK to be angry and maybe you have every right to feel that way, but anger can be a very destructive force which if not controlled and focused into some positive action can destroy you in the process. There are many hurt people here but at sometime the healing must start and for me that healing process only began once I let go of my anger. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:09:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Steve A Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Dear Katie I too felt anger but I found the anger I had was directed at myself for being such a fool to be sucked in by it all. Katie, its OK to be angry and maybe you have every right to feel that way, but anger can be a very destructive force which if not controlled and focused into some positive action can destroy you in the process. There are many hurt people here but at sometime the healing must start and for me that healing process only began once I let go of my anger. Dear Steve - actually I'm not angry at Maharaji anymore (at least about myself). I left 20 years ago, and any anger I had towards Maharaji regarding my own life has long since dissipated. As I said to Robyn below, I was in a really bad place when I got involved with DLM, and I don't feel like I was worse off when I came out of it then I would have been otherwise. I AM upset that my friend committed suicide, and I am angry about some things that happened to the people who lived in the ashrams, but that's in the past, and it's not personal anger, although I do feel that it's important to let the people who bad things happened to that someone is on their side. I agree that people need to let go of the anger to be healed, but I also feel that they also need to go through the anger in other to heal, too. Do you understand what I mean? It's a step in the process, and for anyone to say that people 'shouldn't' be angry is not right (I know that you're not trying to say that, but some other people have in the past.) In other words, it's better to be angry than to be in denial that nothing ever happened to be angry about. But, as I said above, I don't think it's healthy for people to STAY angry - it just ties them to Maharaji for one thing. On the forum there are people like me (and you?), who left many years ago, and there are people who just left and whose wounds are still fresh. I do feel that these people are entitled to be angry and I encourage them to express it (and move beyond it, too.) Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:41:16 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Well, Aesop, I appreciate what you said. When I finally realized that I didn't have to follow Maharaji any more, I felt like I'd been let out of jail. (Seriously. I had a vision that I'd been following a long tunnel in a cave and it had ended in a dead end. When I decided to renounce knowledge, I felt like I had broken through into green grass and fresh air. I actually saw this.) I have a problem with people that say Maharaji is the only way and that Maharaji is for everyone. In my experience, that isn't true. I felt like I was intimidated into following Maharaji because he made threats that I'd go insane if I received knowledge and didn't practice it (the rotten vegetables, etc.) However, I am not trying to persuade premies (like you, I assume) who are happy with following Maharaji not to do it. I just want to be able to tell my side of the story. Regards from Katie P.S. Re VP's loss - he's talking about someone he loved that committed suicide. I am sorry for VP's loss. I can only say that the person must have looked to Maharaji for something that was lacking in their lives. Maybe it was something K couldn't fulfill. Maybe the person's problems were deeper. Knowledge is no substitute for professional help. I also have a problem when people say Maharaji is the only way. Knowledge is not for everybody. But it is for some. Do you want to stand in the way of those people finding their happiness? Moral: If you really care you have to be very sensitive to the needs of others and not pollute their life with your baggage. You therefore have to be sure that you are on solid ground before you make a stand. Thanks for saying you are sorry for my loss. That is the kindest thing you have said to me all night. I don't want to stand in the way of anyone finding their happiness. I do think that, as with everything, there is more than one side to consider. People should be presented with both sides and then reach their own conclusions based on what their hearts and minds tell them. I wouldn't feel threatened by what I say if what M has to offer is real. On the other hand...I would feel threatened by what 'The Guru Papers' has to say. I do care or I wouldn't spend precious time here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:59:05 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Katie: I'm not sure that I ever really got to the point that I decided GMJ was not the Lord of the Universe. I learned to think effectively, and for myself, and at a certain point (fairly recently) I got around to even thinking about Maharaji again. At that point it was an issue of whether I'd 'take up the path' again. In the mean time, my standards had changed and Maharaji no longer meets them. It may be that I still have to experience some anger about getting derailed for so long, but realistically I didn't entertain MJ's mission all that long. About three years intensely and another three sort of drifting. I didn't write that letter to him until '81 or '82. I AM still angry about that crap, but am letting go if it. I recall the story about Pilate and Ciaphus[sp?] asking Jesus if he were the 'king of the Jews' and the 'Son of God' to which he replied 'so you say,' knowing well that it would lead to torture and death. Now, MJ inconsistently denies it so that he won't lose his expensive toys. Pretty sorry. It's not as though the comparison is difficult to make. It's sort of like the way people reacted to the old 'massage a spoon in two' trick that Uri Geller used to do. It's simply a matter of preparing the utensil by inducing metal fatigue up to the point of failure, but people needed to believe so much that the obvious explanation didn't occur to them. We do need to believe, but it's at least as important to have standards and to care for that ground so that weeds don't grow there. How else would faith or believing have rewards, if it appeals mostly or equally to fools? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:46:55 (EST)
Poster: Steve A Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Dear Katie The friend you speak of that committed suicide, is he the same that VP mentioned earlier?. Please accept my condolences also. You are right, anger is part of the healing process, it strengthens us, it increases our resolve and protects us from the sometimes devastating effects of grief, but once it has fulfilled its POSITIVE benefit it needs to be let go before it becomes destructive to ourselves and those we love. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:01:29 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Aesop, You need to read Katie's post again she said right out she didn't want to stop anyone from practicing K if it worked for them it just didn't for her. As I understand it this is a place for people to air thier views about anything and everything so just relax! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:37:16 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Steve A Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Dear Katie The friend you speak of that committed suicide, is he the same that VP mentioned earlier?. Please accept my condolences also. You are right, anger is part of the healing process, it strengthens us, it increases our resolve and protects us from the sometimes devastating effects of grief, but once it has fulfilled its POSITIVE benefit it needs to be let go before it becomes destructive to ourselves and those we love. Dear Steve - I appreciate your condolences very much. The person that I knew that committed suicide wasn't the same person that VP knew, but he was someone I was very close to at one time and had lost touch with. (Since I started reading and posting on the newsgroup/forum, I've been surprised at how many people have premie friends or relatives who killed themselves.) I agree completely with what you say about anger, but I do want to reiterate the point that you have to allow yourself to feel it before you can let it go. (I come from a family where we weren't allowed to express anger at all!) I do agree that it's important to let anger go once it's fulfilled its positive benefits, as you say. I also think the forum is a good place for ex-premies to express their anger towards GMJ. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:39:31 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: VP Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Well, Aesop, I appreciate what you said. When I finally realized that I didn't have to follow Maharaji any more, I felt like I'd been let out of jail. (Seriously. I had a vision that I'd been following a long tunnel in a cave and it had ended in a dead end. When I decided to renounce knowledge, I felt like I had broken through into green grass and fresh air. I actually saw this.) I have a problem with people that say Maharaji is the only way and that Maharaji is for everyone. In my experience, that isn't true. I felt like I was intimidated into following Maharaji because he made threats that I'd go insane if I received knowledge and didn't practice it (the rotten vegetables, etc.) However, I am not trying to persuade premies (like you, I assume) who are happy with following Maharaji not to do it. I just want to be able to tell my side of the story. Regards from Katie P.S. Re VP's loss - he's talking about someone he loved that committed suicide. I am sorry for VP's loss. I can only say that the person must have looked to Maharaji for something that was lacking in their lives. Maybe it was something K couldn't fulfill. Maybe the person's problems were deeper. Knowledge is no substitute for professional help. I also have a problem when people say Maharaji is the only way. Knowledge is not for everybody. But it is for some. Do you want to stand in the way of those people finding their happiness? Moral: If you really care you have to be very sensitive to the needs of others and not pollute their life with your baggage. You therefore have to be sure that you are on solid ground before you make a stand. Thanks for saying you are sorry for my loss. That is the kindest thing you have said to me all night. I don't want to stand in the way of anyone finding their happiness. I do think that, as with everything, there is more than one side to consider. People should be presented with both sides and then reach their own conclusions based on what their hearts and minds tell them. I wouldn't feel threatened by what I say if what M has to offer is real. On the other hand...I would feel threatened by what 'The Guru Papers' has to say. I do care or I wouldn't spend precious time here. The authors of conventional cult papers take a broad brush view of all so called cults and attempt to put all of them into one slot or another in order substantiate premises the author is trying to put forward. For their part it is probably relevant for them to get their doctorate in psychology but if a person's goal is to discover the truth, it doesn't work. In my opinion it is wrong to paint them all with the same brush. Unfortunately, the study of cults is not one whose basis is rational thought and objective open-mindedness. but rather one filled with heaps of paranoia and emotion. The truth is always obscured by such distractions. Case in point, the witch hunts of the 17th century. My point to you still stands VP and I think you'd agree; if you were never involved with Maharaji, you have no valid perspective upon which to judge its merit or lack thereof. Now, an analysis and critical opinion of the Guru Papers you can certainly offer. But please understand, they are just one man's broad-brushed attempt to make black or white something that may be neither. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:10:01 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Aesop, You need to read Katie's post again she said right out she didn't want to stop anyone from practicing K if it worked for them it just didn't for her. As I understand it this so just relax! Robyn Robyn, I don't know how long you've followed the action here but if you have followed Katie's post from way back she has consistently in a sweet and gentle way encouraged people to either stop practicing or never start. That is her reason for participating in this forum. Having said that, she is definitely one of the kinder ex-premies on the circuit. Sometimes her anti-K stand is taken passively by merely supporting another ex-premie who blatently and rudely tears down Maharaji. You are right when you say this is a place for people to air their views about anything and everything. She airs hers, I air mine, and you air yours. You gave me some free advice now here's mine to you - Stop trying to be a referee. :-) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:41:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Aesop: Regarding: My point to you still stands VP and I think you'd agree; if you were never involved with Maharaji, you have no valid perspective upon which to judge its merit or lack thereof. I could not disagree more strenuously. There is a long and honored tradition of critiques by 'outsiders' who bring to an analysis a fresh and unbiased perspective. The most influential critique and analysis of the US, for instance, was by Alexis de Tocqueville who had insights into this culture that are still relevant. Another in this tradition is Gunnar Myrdal who, in writing The American Dilemma, set the stage for the Civil Rights movement, and won the Nobel. Although these examples are from political sociology they apply to other social and religious movements as well. Your attempt to de-legitimize VP on the basis that he is not a premie is completely off-the-wall. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:59:40 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Aesop Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: /i> Robyn, I don't know how long you've followed the action here but if you have followed Katie's post from way back she has consistently in a sweet and gentle way encouraged people to either stop practicing or never start. That is her reason for participating in this forum. Having said that, she is definitely one of the kinder ex-premies on the circuit. Sometimes her anti-K stand is taken passively by merely supporting another ex-premie who blatently and rudely tears down Maharaji. You are right when you say this is a place for people to air their views about anything and everything. She airs hers, I air mine, and you air yours. You gave me some free advice now here's mine to you - Stop trying to be a referee. :-) Well, I have never even once seen Katie suggest that one who finds practicing knowledge a positive experience should stop. So you just got that wrong! And in terms of 'never starting' the practice in the first place, she has suggested that people consider her's and other ex-premies' own experiences as well as those of premies and Maharaji prior to getting involved. That's just asking that one get all the information and make an informed decision. So, again, you are wrong. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and I have to say that I am gratified that you admit that knowledge isn't for everyone, something most premies, in my experience, and Maharaji himself, will not admit. So, if knowledge ISN'T for everyone, the kind of things Katie is saying are very helpful for people, such that they might not get involved and waste their time and money on something that 'isn't for them.' This kind of discussion helps people decide that. And since 90% of the people who have received knowledge have split from Maharaji, and apparently decided it wasn't 'for them' there are a lot of people who could be helped by the discussion. That's what is so healthy about this discussion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:42:37 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: This topic was brought up in the 'premie.com/fable' thread below, but I thought it was worthy of its own separate thread. A lot of the ex-premies on here are angry at Maharaji and Maharaji's organization. I think this is healthy, and a normal part of the healing process. Robyn has brought up the fact that we are all responsible for our own lives, which I think is true. I think the feeling of anger at Maharaji, and Maharaji's organization CAN be integrated with the fact that we are eventually all responsible for our own lives and our choices within those lives. I think ex-premies are similar to abused children. If abused children won't admit that the abuse occurred, then they never heal. They often go crazy or abuse other people or beings. I think it's important to admit that the abuse occurred, to get angry as hell about it, and then to get over it and get on with your life. I have no patience with people who tell ex-premies to 'get on with their lives' without letting them express their anger first. Everyone who posts on here is probably familiar with the five steps of the grieving process (but I'll say them again...): denial, then anger, then bargaining, then depression, then acceptance. A lot of people on here have lost parts of their lives because of Maharaji. I think it's important to get angry at him. I also think it's important to get past the anger, because as long as you still feel a strong emotion about someone, you're still emotionally tied to him (or her) in some way (those of you who have ex-whatevers will know what I mean!). Some of the people who post on here have gotten through their anger towards Maharaji. Some haven't. Some have a lot more anger to express than other, too. Hope this isn't too preachy (yuck). It's just something I've been wanting to say for a while. Thank you, Katie. Well said. I just want to mention one thing about 'taking responsiblity for your own life.' I think that statement is viewed in different ways. A lot of premies come on the forum and say that ex-premies should 'take responsibility for their lives' (implying that they 'AREN'T) and move on, and that any discussion of the problems in their lives they believe were caused by Maharaji and his cult are simply an exercise in wallowing in some sort of self pity and self-indulging in anger. In other words, they are saying: 'It's your own damn fault so forget about it.' This is used as a means of deflecting any responsibility whatsoever on the part of Maharaji and his minions, and I reject it entirely. On the other hand, I feel I only really took responsibility for my life when I LEFT the ashram and Maharaji. Prior to that, Maharaji had extolled me to 'surrender' the reigns of my life to HIM and that if I left his ashram, bad things would happen. Since I believed he was the Lord of the Universe, I tried to do that. I essentially relinquished my responsibility. Yes, I did that myself, but only because of what Maharaji portrayed himself to be, and because of my faith in what he told me to do. So he shares in that responsibility. I reject entirely those new-age, est-like, radically conservative, statements that one is responsibile for everything that happens to them and/or that everything that happens is what is supposed to happen. That thinking is just a recipe for failing to make any changes in one's external environment. I also have heard anecdotal statements about how 'kind' M is to people in certain situations. I have no reason to believe that isn't true. However, I have also seen him be angry, selfish, and a real asshole to people, who were especially vulnerable to him because of what they believed him to be. I also have to say that he virtually ignored 99% of the premies, including those living in his ashrams. He made no attempt whatsoever to find out anything about us as individuals and when bad things happened (like the many suicides, illnesses, injuries occuring doing 'service,' etc. he didn't even acknowledge it, nor did he take any responsibility whatsoever.) Moreover, he basicallly told us to reject our families and friends, and that caused hurt and injury to those people as well. And when I sent him certified letters asking him to address what I was feeling, he never answered them. I know this happened to other ex-premies as well. This, after dedicating my life to him for 10 years! Not exactly what a kind person with integrity would do. Finally, I agree with Scott that I really didn't think about my involvement with M for many years after I left. I did feel some anger, and that was actually very liberating for me. That's because I couldn't even feel the anger until I stopped blaming myself, entirely, for how miserable and stunted I felt being a premie, which is what I was programmed to do (self blame, that is)in M's cult. Now, I think I've moved beyond most of the anger, but I do recognize that M still hasn't accepted any responsiblity for any of the negative stuff that has happened, and my sense of justice is just a little insulted by that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 20:09:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Aesop and JW and Robyn Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Robyn, I don't know how long you've followed the action here but if you have followed Katie's post from way back she has consistently in a sweet and gentle way encouraged people to either stop practicing or never start. That is her reason for participating in this forum. Having said that, she is definitely one of the kinder ex-premies on the circuit. Sometimes her anti-K stand is taken passively by merely supporting another ex-premie who blatently and rudely tears down Maharaji. You are right when you say this is a place for people to air their views about anything and everything. She airs hers, I air mine, and you air yours. You gave me some free advice now here's mine to you - Stop trying to be a referee. :-) Dear Aesop - JW is right - I have never encouraged anyone who said that they were happy practicing knowledge to stop (op, CD, and Mili may testify to that, I don't know). Also, regarding my 'passive' 'anti-K' stance: first, I'm not anti-K, but I am somewhat anti-Maharaji. Also, my experience with GMJ and knowledge was not that bad (read my Journeys entry for more info if you want to), but a lot of other people on the forum, and some friends of mine who don't post on the forum, had bad experiences. I certainly support their (and YOUR) right to relate their (your) personal experience as they (you) see it. I try not to be judgemental about Maharaji on the forum, but the truth is that I don't like or respect him very much, so I don't defend him when other people on here attack him. I know it hurts premies when people attack Maharaji, and I'm sorry about that, but I just can't defend him. I do however, like and respect a lot of the premies who post on here, and have been known to come to their defense. P.S. By the way, I appreciate Robyn's support, (JW's too) and didn't feel like she was meddling or trying to be a referee. Sometimes it's nice to have someone else stick up for you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 21:31:42 (EST)
Poster: good ole Email: ** To: JW Subject: JW (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: thank you for your sane and accurate post. Your continued clarity has helped me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 21:54:19 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: katie Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Katie, I have read this thread from start to finish (pretty, rare nowadays, given the sudden recent explosion of contributions to this forum), and have found myself getting ever angrier as I did so. Appropriate emotion, I guess. But this time it was not at M, it was mainly at 'Aesop' whose sole contribution seemed to be saying no more than 'well that's not my experience, so you must be wrong' (and he/she was pretty rude to Robyn, IMHO). Fortunately JW dropped by to say pretty much everything that needed saying on the subject of the Lord's so-called kindness. I just feel, on your behalf, rather irritated that the initial point you were raising about the stages of recovery were not really addressed. I can't say I recognise the sequence of stages you cited from my own experience, but that might be because I clambered out of K by a fairly unconventional route. A bit like Scott, I had had about four years of intense devotion to Maharaj Ji as aspirant and premie followed by four years of spaced-out occasional practice of Knowledge without any contact with other premies. The most shocking thing was that when I was feeling this DESPERATE need to get back into Knowledge proper, satsang, service, meditation - devotion even, I discovered on making fresh contact, that what I (a spaced-out premie) had been doing for the last few years was exactly the same as every 'practising' premie had been doing, ie., a bit of meditation when they felt like it. Maharaj Ji, had not so much moved as dismantled the goalposts. I had a K review from an old friend, now an instructor, who said '...and you can do it as little or as much as you like, when you like'. This is all in my Journey, so I won't go into any more detail here. This was 1986. Unknown to me, there had effectively been no satsang or service for about four years. The fortunate thing for me in all this was that I had spent these years learning how to live 'in the world' again, even though I had felt guilty as hell about my leaving Knowledge. So when I realised after seeing Maharaj Ji live again (in the new business-suit persona) that this was not the Lord - and not even pretending to be the Lord - once the initial shock and confusion had worn off, there was actually a sense of elation in that, yes! - the way I had been living for the last few years was not wrong, and I might as well just carry on as before - with or without the meditation. If M wasn't the Lord anymore, then as far as I was concerned, he might as well be the Mararishi or the Wizard of Oz. And now I was free of all that. The personal crisis that had triggered my need to 'find my way back' to M, blew over of its own accord. It was only on finding this forum that a lot of anger was suddenly stirred up. Partly through my new appreciation of how much worse it had been for premies who had maintained the intensive lifestyle for longer (mostly in the seventies), partly through realising again how I had wasted so many years, and also because M is so obviously encouraging even recent premies to believe that HE IS, EVEN YET, THE LIVING PERFECT MASTER (it is the little secret that premies are supposed to work out for themselves as they rub together their last two remaining brain cells). If anything, I find this more creepy than the claims M used to make long ago. He is NOT the Lord, He knows he is not the Lord. He does not possess '64 yogic powers'. He possess no powers, unless you include the gift of the gab. He will not deliver peace on earth. Aesop thinks Maharaj Ji is 'kind'. But did you ever meet an unpleasant con-merchant? So for me, the anger came last. Perhaps I will make therapeutic history. Now, after a few months of looking in, my primary emotions are those of sheer amusement at the absurdity of it all, coupled with a distant hope that a little ordinary goodness and common-sense will sweep the world in the place of all this blatant hokum. Regards ps to Scott> Uri Geller is still bending spoons on TV, and is a multi-millionaire as a result. HE makes me bloody angry too! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:34:07 (EST)
Poster: OK Shick-saw, I'll keep them a bit shotter -- heh -- shotter hahah I like it. Email: aoa To: Scott T. Subject: Another GREAT post from Scott Ji. Read this one. (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Aesop: Regarding: My point to you still stands VP and I think you'd agree; if you were never involved with Maharaji, you have no valid perspective upon which to judge its merit or lack thereof. I could not disagree more strenuously. There is a long and honored tradition of critiques by 'outsiders' who bring to an analysis a fresh and unbiased perspective. The most influential critique and analysis of the US, for instance, was by Alexis de Tocqueville who had insights into this culture that are still relevant. Another in this tradition is Gunnar Myrdal who, in writing The American Dilemma, set the stage for the Civil Rights movement, and won the Nobel. Although these examples are from political sociology they apply to other social and religious movements as well. Your attempt to de-legitimize VP on the basis that he is not a premie is completely off-the-wall. -Scott aoa bob coc dod Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:50:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: nigel Subject: Re: anger vs. taking responsibility Message: Dear Nigel - the steps to the loss/grieving process that I described were made up by someone (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, I believe), so might not hold true for everyone. Actually I didn't really experience them in the order I described after leaving Maharaji either. (I have however, experienced them after the break-up of close relationships...) The point I was trying to make (and which I think you got) is that anger towards Maharaji, or towards Maharaji's organization is often necessary in the ex-premie healing process, as long as said ex-premies don't get stuck in it. It's like getting mad at your ex - it's important in the separation process, but you wouldn't want to maintain those strong feelings about that person forever (at least I wouldn't!). In the same way, I'm not angry at Maharaji any more, because he just isn't important in my life any more. I don't like him very much, but otherwise I consider him pretty insignificant. Both in my life and in the world. I realize that I'm lucky to get to this point - I wasn't involved with M for very long or very deeply, and I can understand and appreciate other's anger at him and at his organization. I can even get angry, as you said, on behalf of the people who lived in the ashram and did M's agya and ended up with nothing. But otherwise, I feel that, as soon as each of us in ready, we should put Maharaji in the insignificant place he deserves in our lives. A footnote or something, maybe? Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 22:51:21 (EST)
Poster: a poor mountain ear barely kept his famine fed Email: aoa To: ----- Subject: then one day he was shooting at some fool and up from the ground came a bubbling pool (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Aesop: Regarding: My point to you still stands VP and I think you'd agree; if you were never involved with Maharaji, you have no valid perspective upon which to judge its merit or lack thereof. I could not disagree more strenuously. There is a long and honored tradition of critiques by 'outsiders' who bring to an analysis a fresh and unbiased perspective. The most influential critique and analysis of the US, for instance, was by Alexis de Tocqueville who had insights into this culture that are still relevant. Another in this tradition is Gunnar Myrdal who, in writing The American Dilemma, set the stage for the Civil Rights movement, and won the Nobel. Although these examples are from political sociology they apply to other social and religious movements as well. Your attempt to de-legitimize VP on the basis that he is not a premie is completely off-the-wall. -Scott The thing is here -- it isn't to convince anybody. It's in support of ex-premies; it helps us to de-fuddle our minds and say Yes I resonate strongly with what you said, Scott-Ji. It's to say 'Yes! This is one of many traditions I projectile-vomited out of my list of possible viewpoints' during my Maharaji Nightmare. It says something important that (drop the we editorial voice) I can identify: this intellectual tradition makes sense. Outside critique.
Anyone who's ever had to wear one too many hats in a
small enterprise (even fixing an automobile that isn't
running right) can appreciate the value of a second
opinion; and especially, from one who was selected
because they didn't have much background in that field.
Right.
It is incidental -- only -- that Scott's post happens to
not jibe with something a practicing P thinks or believes.
That's not the point. That's not the issue, as M would
say. Point is, what Scott just said has value to
an ex-premie.
If it happens to be valued by a practicing p, fine.
I got no beef with them learning something here.
The point is to communicate the kinds of viewpoints like
what Scott said -- to an ex-p -- so he or she can
resonate with it and recognize that, much to the dismay
of the purveyor of rotten veggies and shark-bait satsang
-- we are not permanently damaged. Ex-P's can pick up
where arrested development left off, and start to see
things as they necessarily need to be seen.
Traditions are part of that vision.
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Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 23:19:35 (EST)
Poster: Ms. Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: AOA Ji Subject: Meshugenah in Connecticut (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Is is Connecticut, or is it just you and bb? My mom (and her whole big family) is from Bridgeport/Fairfield (she actually graduated from the Univ. of Bridgeport - not something she wants people to know these days!) and we have some crazy relatives up there. Maybe it's something in the water. Regards from Ms. K. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 23:24:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Ms. Katie Subject: Re: Meshugenah in Connecticut II (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Oh yeah, I forgot to say I think it goes 'then one day he was shooting at some food, and up from the ground came a-bubbling crude (oil, that is... black gold...texas tea.)' So are you watching re-runs on TV and running the dishwasher? I also forgot to say that I liked Scott's post very much, too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:06:15 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Ms. Katie Subject: Re: Meshugenah in Connecticut (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Is is Connecticut, or is it just you and bb? My mom (and her whole big family) is from Bridgeport/Fairfield (she actually graduated from the Univ. of Bridgeport - not something she wants people to know these days!) and we have some crazy relatives up there. Maybe it's something in the water. Regards from Ms. K. I've known him since 1976. You know how like a lot of zealot-oriented groups and their members have almost no sense of humor -- and when you find it, it's warped and twisted? Maybe you don't. A lot of premies took themselves a thousand times too serious, and their service was a huge ego trip but not flattering at all -- just morbid, petty and not even like, interesting to watch. Then there was Burke -- a real character -- everything he said or did was novel, insightful, and loose, pretty much. For instance, instead of changing clothes to paint interiors, he'd just turn his sweater inside out, paint all day, and re-invert it to go to satsang. That cracked me up when I saw that. I'd found a friend. I didn't even know how to shave when I met Bill -- I was still a child -- I was sixteen. I was raised in a chaotic alcoholic environment. I have one brother with a sense of humor -- the other two are as stiff as Lee Harvey Oswald during the prison transfer. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:16:39 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Katie Subject: Re: Meshugenah in Connecticut II (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: Oh yeah, I forgot to say I think it goes 'then one day he was shooting at some food, and up from the ground came a-bubbling crude (oil, that is...black gold...texas tea.)' So are you watching re-runs on TV and running the dishwasher? I also forgot to say that I liked Scott's post very much, too. I think (seque alert!) of the last minutes of 2001: A Space Odyssey was to say, among other things, that we are not completed or incomplete by our emotional selves. This has been a real stunning 38 year trip through the starry neighborhood. Look at what people did accomplish since 1960! We went to the moon. We put a computer in a twentieth of all households, soon to be a fifth. We shat on the earth in new ways nobody had ever thought of in all the two million years preceding. God is nothing without us; we collectively are mostly what God is, though I'm willing to go along with the notion that it took God billions upon billions of years to wind up to pitch this one fastball: humankind. Let it all be out of control Amen. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:33:41 (EST)
Poster: the little secret that premies are Email: aoa To: nigel Subject: supposed to work out (Re: anger vs. taking responsibility ) Message: . . . the little secret that premies are supposed to work out for themselves as they rub together their last two remaining brain cells . . . And then there's a little poof and it's all gone! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 19:13:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: A Random Act of Kindness Message: Here's a random act of extreme kindness that everyone can do for Brian, who archives the forum. When you're finished typing a reply to someone's message, and you don't absolutely need to quote the preceding message, please click on 'NO' on 'Quote Message in Reply' (for some totally weird reason, the default on this is 'YES'!). If you'd really like to quote someone's message in your reply, editing the message in the reply box is possible (just delete the parts you don't want)- thus you can just quote the part you would like to quote and not the whole string of messages. Please note, however, that if you edit the quoted message, you should take out all the HTML codes (examples are things like or - in other words, anything between a 'less than' and 'greater than' sign) so that the quoted message can appear in italics. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 17:57:06 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: ex-premies Subject: I need your help Message: I'm looking for a few ex-premies to help me test a web conference system. It's a passworded system, so I'll need some means of communicating a new password to you, and the URL to get into the system. I prefer to do that privately, thanks. Once you're there, just create conversations like you would here -- no topic is off limits; it is ex-premie oriented. Thanks. -And On Anand Ji Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 12, 1998 at 22:43:09 (EST)
Poster: UJTYRG Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: I need your help (Re: I need your help) Message: sure, bill52ROCKETMAIL.COM Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 00:14:04 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: UJTYRG Subject: Re: I need your help Message: sure, bill52ROCKETMAIL.COM - mail sent - thanks Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 07:44:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AOA: Sounds like fun. stalking@freewheeling.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:35:52 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AOA: Sounds like fun. stalking@freewheeling.com Thanks, Scott. - mail sent - Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 09:40:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AOA Ji - not the kind of thing I'd like to do (I assume that you are talking about live communication - like a chat room), but there is an ex who posts on here infrequently who wanted to be notified if someone was interested in setting up something like this. His name is Stephen B (or Steven B?). I don't have his e-mail address, but it's in the archives (and I think Brian has it). Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 10:53:30 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Katie Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AOA Ji - not the kind of thing I'd like to do (I assume that you are talking about live communication - like a chat room), but there is an ex who posts on here infrequently who wanted to be notified if someone was interested in setting up something like this. His name is Stephen B (or Steven B?). I don't have his e-mail address, but it's in the archives (and I think Brian has it). Katie Hi Katie, I appreciate the response. Thank you! It isn't chat. It's unthreaded, or linear, conferencing. I'll say a little more, as background, below. But as a fellow ACoA I just want you to know that I felt heard and that your 'no' is a complete sentence. :) You were heard, too! :) (wink) -------- expletive (skip if disinterested) -------- Here on the Forum, we use threaded conferencing: message reply reply reply Message reply On my system, it's linear conferencing: mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm <--- original topic-starter message mmmmmmmm rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr <-- first reply rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr <-- 2nd reply rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr <-- 3rd reply rrrrrrrr XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX <-- YOUR reply box XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX With linear conferencing, all messages in a thread are displayed in sequence, with a reply box at the bottom. That way there's no need to quote others' messages as often, since it's right there just before your message. The messages are numbered, so you can refer to 'Tom's #3 above' if you want to make sure people know which message you're replying to. The linear conferencing model tends to promote less fragmentation; the result is (hopefully!) a better conversation. It isn't chat -- it isn't a live medium. It's a forum (or BBS) -- just like this Forum is. But it doesn't suffer from some of the defects of trying to display a master listing of each and every posting made since the forum was reset! It is also designed for long-term archival -- the message areas often lay dormant for weeks or months, until someone reads through an old and forgotten one and revives it -- just by posting to it. It's a lot more coherent; the hard work of laying down a cultural history together isn't lost in the shuffle; everything everyone writes is preserved, for a very long time (usually, the life of the system that hosts such a conference). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:48:55 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: john.kreilkamp@mailexcite.com To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AJi: That sounds just like another forum I participate in. I'll jump in, if you throw me a line. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 12:32:21 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: John K. Subject: Re: I need your help Message: AJi: That sounds just like another forum I participate in. I'll jump in, if you throw me a line. Great -- welcome aboard! --mail sent-- Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 13:55:17 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: I have to swap motherboards to put in 40 megs of RAM Subject: SERVER STATUS: DOWN 1 HOUR (was Re: I need your help) (Re: I need your help) Message: I'm looking for a few ex-premies to help me test a web conference system. It's a passworded system, so I'll need some means of communicating a new password to you, and the URL to get into the system. I prefer to do that privately, thanks. Once you're there, just create conversations like you would here -- no topic is off limits; it is ex-premie oriented. Thanks. -And On Anand Ji baba RAM DOS. Hahah. Yeah I am gonna swap motherboards -- the server isn't scaling particularly well. The conference engine should be up in an hour, maybe two. Maybe sooner. We'll see. I'll report the status here, when it comes back online. -And On Anand Ji p.s. Mail was sent to the person who wrote inquiry. I'll get back to you soon! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 02:06:11 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: ------ Subject: SERVER's BEEN online since 4 pm Friday (Re: I need your help) Message: I. I'm looking for a few ex-premies to help me test a web conference system. It's a passworded system, so I'll need some means of communicating a new password to you, and the URL to get into the system. I prefer to do that privately, thanks. Once you're there, just create conversations like you would here -- no topic is off limits; it is ex-premie oriented. Thanks. -And On Anand Ji II. baba RAM DOS. Hahah. Yeah I am gonna swap motherboards -- the server isn't scaling particularly well. The conference engine should be up in an hour, maybe two. Maybe sooner. We'll see. I'll report the status here, when it comes back online. -And On Anand Ji p.s. Mail was sent to the person who wrote inquiry. I'll get back to you soon! For that one applicant who waited: --mail sent-- Bill your userid is case-sensitive -- that's why you could not login. Use all lower-case. I did the complete swap in under an hour -- the web server was answering requests about 55 minutes after I brought it down -- it was back online around 3:20 or so yesterday afternoon; went down briefly, and has been up ever since. There are some nagging little problems I'll have to look into that don't affect the web server but affect the machine it runs on. One of the serial ports isn't working. This machine is getting old. I tried twice to post this update, before 5 pm yesterday, but was twice thwarted. Then I forgot.
I never used to forget -- not completely! -- like I do now. I kinda like
it, to be honest with you. -And On Anand Ji
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