Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 7 | |
From: Feb 20, 1998 |
To: Feb 28, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 22:46:09 (EST)
Poster: Mack Email: To: forumba Subject: Observer's Mili Slam Message: Hey you guy's, I'm Anonmousies husband. It surprises me when someone implies that Mili is dumb or not all that sharp. He is the bright light in the east! -Observer- gets to say his thing of course, These days everyone's got something to say and they all end up on the forum. There is something about giving someone a typewriter or a microphone. You can't shut them up. Look at the referee in football. He has his own microphone just so that he can humiliate the players when they do something wrong. The referee actually stops the whole game to point out the one guy who made a mistake and embarass him on television in front of his mom and anybody else who might be watching. He's right out there on TV, with a little button on his belt. He clicks it, then says, 'The reason we stopped, the reason we're all out on the field not doing anything, is because SOME people don't seem to know the rules...DO they number SEVENTY ONE? SEVENTY ONE! I can't even look at you, you waddling waste of human life. Number seventy one. But you can't blame the referee. Everyone wants to be heard. He is no different. You'd do the same thing. Let's be honest. Your a referee. An ordinary guy. Not making the big money. But you have a little button on your belt. You know that for the first time in your whole stupid life the whole country will be listening to you. I'd be stopping the game every 10 minutes just to get some stuff off my chest. How often do you get the whole country to listen to you? I'd be out there, stop the game and say, 'There was no penalty. This has nothing to do with the game, the players or the Natural Football League. I just need to get some things off my chest. Sorry, I just can't keep this up. I feel like a fraud out here. I mean, sure I'm the referee and everything, but who am I to judge these players? What if I am wrong? Look at some of the decisions I've made in my own life, for crying out loud. I'm sixty-two years old and I'm a freaking referee.' 'I'll be honest with you. Lots of times when I'm out here I'm not even thinking about football. My wife's getting big as a house. I love my kids, but if I had to do it again I'd wear a condom. It just all goes by so fast doesn't it? One minute you're in high school, the next minute your watching your prostate like a hawk. Plus, the other thing that's really bothering me is that I feel like I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. I'm serious. Have you ever dressed up in your wife's underwear? Boy, you give me a pair of thong panties and some perfume and I'm one happy referee. Anyway, I better get back to the game...' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 00:14:50 (EST)
Poster: Will Email: **bb To: ** Subject: To The Student (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: Just moving the thread from down below to here. I read your post to me and I guess I am not really into a conversion adventure but we could talk some. How do you like your life? Quite a place huh? Sometimes you don't really know how you feel about things till you get a chance to try to express them. With that in mind, it's your private business, but for the sake of learning, today, what do you think about the power of this life? Or god or maharaji or maybe another way to put that is, have you settled on any particular viewpoints on this life yet? This is not a quiz and I'm not interested in judgeing you. You can have other fun on other threads. You had complained about other threads veering into maharaji bashing so on this one I will not mention his name. To quote you; I exist now, I enjoy now, I learn now. Well, me too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 00:29:30 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mack Subject: Re: Observer's Mili Slam Message: Hey you guy's, I'm Anonmousies husband. It surprises me when someone implies that Mili is dumb or not all that sharp. He is the bright light in the east! -Observer- gets to say his thing of course, These days everyone's got something to say and they all end up on the forum. There is something about giving someone a typewriter or a microphone. You can't shut them up. Look at the referee in football. He has his own microphone just so that he can humiliate the players when they do something wrong. The referee actually stops the whole game to point out the one guy who made a mistake and embarass him on television in front of his mom and anybody else who might be watching. He's right out there on TV, with a little button on his belt. He clicks it, then says, 'The reason we stopped, the reason we're all out on the field not doing anything, is because SOME people don't seem to know the rules...DO they number SEVENTY ONE? SEVENTY ONE! I can't even look at you, you waddling waste of human life. Number seventy one. But you can't blame the referee. Everyone wants to be heard. He is no different. You'd do the same thing. Let's be honest. Your a referee. An ordinary guy. Not making the big money. But you have a little button on your belt. You know that for the first time in your whole stupid life the whole country will be listening to you. I'd be stopping the game every 10 minutes just to get some stuff off my chest. How often do you get the whole country to listen to you? I'd be out there, stop the game and say, 'There was no penalty. This has nothing to do with the game, the players or the Natural Football League. I just need to get some things off my chest. Sorry, I just can't keep this up. I feel like a fraud out here. I mean, sure I'm the referee and everything, but who am I to judge these players? What if I am wrong? Look at some of the decisions I've made in my own life, for crying out loud. I'm sixty-two years old and I'm a freaking referee.' 'I'll be honest with you. Lots of times when I'm out here I'm not even thinking about football. My wife's getting big as a house. I love my kids, but if I had to do it again I'd wear a condom. It just all goes by so fast doesn't it? One minute you're in high school, the next minute your watching your prostate like a hawk. Plus, the other thing that's really bothering me is that I feel like I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. I'm serious. Have you ever dressed up in your wife's underwear? Boy, you give me a pair of thong panties and some perfume and I'm one happy referee. Anyway, I better get back to the game...' Isn't this Maharaji's satsang from Long Beach in 1996? It sure sounds like it. Please, let us know which of his satsangs this is! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 04:03:46 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Observer's Mili Slam Message: Hey you guy's, I'm Anonmousies husband. It surprises me when someone implies that Mili is dumb or not all that sharp. He is the bright light in the east! -Observer- gets to say his thing of course, These days everyone's got something to say and they all end up on the forum. There is something about giving someone a typewriter or a microphone. You can't shut them up. Look at the referee in football. He has his own microphone just so that he can humiliate the players when they do something wrong. The referee actually stops the whole game to point out the one guy who made a mistake and embarass him on television in front of his mom and anybody else who might be watching. He's right out there on TV, with a little button on his belt. He clicks it, then says, 'The reason we stopped, the reason we're all out on the field not doing anything, is because SOME people don't seem to know the rules...DO they number SEVENTY ONE? SEVENTY ONE! I can't even look at you, you waddling waste of human life. Number seventy one. But you can't blame the referee. Everyone wants to be heard. He is no different. You'd do the same thing. Let's be honest. Your a referee. An ordinary guy. Not making the big money. But you have a little button on your belt. You know that for the first time in your whole stupid life the whole country will be listening to you. I'd be stopping the game every 10 minutes just to get some stuff off my chest. How often do you get the whole country to listen to you? I'd be out there, stop the game and say, 'There was no penalty. This has nothing to do with the game, the players or the Natural Football League. I just need to get some things off my chest. Sorry, I just can't keep this up. I feel like a fraud out here. I mean, sure I'm the referee and everything, but who am I to judge these players? What if I am wrong? Look at some of the decisions I've made in my own life, for crying out loud. I'm sixty-two years old and I'm a freaking referee.' 'I'll be honest with you. Lots of times when I'm out here I'm not even thinking about football. My wife's getting big as a house. I love my kids, but if I had to do it again I'd wear a condom. It just all goes by so fast doesn't it? One minute you're in high school, the next minute your watching your prostate like a hawk. Plus, the other thing that's really bothering me is that I feel like I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. I'm serious. Have you ever dressed up in your wife's underwear? Boy, you give me a pair of thong panties and some perfume and I'm one happy referee. Anyway, I better get back to the game...' Isn't this Maharaji's satsang from Long Beach in 1996? It sure sounds like it. Please, let us know which of his satsangs this is! Nice one JW! ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:27:13 (EST)
Poster: Mack Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Observer's Mili Slam (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: That was some Richard Levi sewn into the response to Observer. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:24:29 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Mack Subject: Re: Observer's Mili Slam Message: Seriously Mack, quit your day job imMEDiately and get your butt down to the nearest comedy club. This material is just pure genius man! I mean your joke about your wife's as big as a house!? My god, so original, like a breath of fresh air! pure genius! How did you ever think of that? And the one about the prostate! god i'm rolling on the floor laughing... oh god... wait a minute... that reminds me... damn! haven't checked mine recently. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:47:19 (EST)
Poster: observer Email: To: Mack Subject: Re: Observer's Mili Slam Message: Oh Mack, so true so true. The grand forum, the world as a stage, often regresses into layers of dimensions of commentators, and I participate without exception. At least in Andy Wharhol's world, most people get off stage when their 15 minutes is up. I haven't seen The Star with a Tail (bright light from the east). I don't mean to discourage anybody. Since you mentioned your famous wife "Anonamousie", who is she? And does she know that you are spending your time writing these beautiful diatribes? Is she somehow connected to Richard Levi, I mean THE Richard Levi? Didn't he space out and leave the DC ashram with the housemother in 1978? Or was that the guy who wrote the incredibly important book "The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ"? Help me out here. My wife can't figure out why I start laughing while staring at a computer screen at 3 in the morning. Brian, I know I am just eating up costly storage space in the archives. Feel free to delete me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 11:14:08 (EST)
Poster: Mack Email: To: observer Subject: Croatian Comet (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: Glad you laughed. It was posted just cause you said you found laughter here. I had to craft it around your remarks somehow. Richard Levi is a funny guy I borrowed from. My wife is jealous of me using the computer but who is she to squawk, she's about to post herself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 15:32:34 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Will Subject: Re: To The Student (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: Just moving the thread from down below to here. I read your post to me and I guess I am not really into a conversion adventure but we could talk some. How do you like your life? Quite a place huh? Sometimes you don't really know how you feel about things till you get a chance to try to express them. With that in mind, it's your private business, but for the sake of learning, today, what do you think about the power of this life? Or god or maharaji or maybe another way to put that is, have you settled on any particular viewpoints on this life yet? This is not a quiz and I'm not interested in judgeing you. You can have other fun on other threads. You had complained about other threads veering into maharaji bashing so on this one I will not mention his name. To quote you; I exist now, I enjoy now, I learn now. Well, me too. Life, it's better than sliced bread! I don't understand the "life sucks" mentality. Circumstances can suck. Poverty sucks. Injustice sucks. The power of life, the potential for humanity...amazing! Tragedy brings out the best and the worst. I like being naive sometimes...Utopia is a goal. I'm not sure about all of the 2000 doomsday stuff, but I think there may be some painful changes soon. Visualize world peace, it's not just a bumpersticker. Of course it may never happen, but if you don't know your objective, you'll never approach it! Through Maharaji? Well, I have my way, you have yours. Who am I to judge? My viewpoint on life: never compromise your standards. As far as we know for sure, we just get one lifetime. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:16:12 (EST)
Poster: To Email: ** To: Student Subject: Stu (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: Hi stu. Well you are lucky your folks weren't buddist. It would run contrary to your zest for life. After suffering through countless hours of mantra meditation he 'realized' these two things; 'How miserable, then, is this world! A world which grows old and dies only to be reborn, and grow old and die again and again without cease. But is not the cause of this growing old and this dying birth, and the desire of birth?' and 'By killing desire, which leads from birth to death, new birhts and new woes will be prevented. There is no other means to kill this desire than to lead a desireless life.' He was of course going to save the world now and tell them all his grand 'realization' and misperception of life and so he addressed the local monks; 'Learn, O monks, that all existaence is naught but pain: inasmuch as death, contact with what one does not like, separation from what one likes or the inability to satisfy one's desires, are painful...The origin of this universal pain is the craving to exist, the craving of the desires of the five external senses and the internal sense, and even the craving to die.' Whew! Found that stuff today. Well, you can see how easy it is for anyone to start a religion. Any viewpoint can be the great holy viewpoint if your believers will go along. My wife is watching Oprah go gaga over j. travolta. He is a scientologist and that nutty religion was started only 30 years ago. (PSSST. keep it quite from the people who haven't paid for the seventh scientology level, but at that level you are told you are a reincarnation of a member of a civilization from the planet __________ that was destroyed 10 billion years ago.) I'm not kidding. That's the seventh level. And of course people believe it. Who am I to talk of course. I like your youthful optomism, I'm so old and jaded I had to look up the word Utopia. It said; An imaginary island where perfection existed in society and government. also, any conception of an ideal state. or any visionary plan. I remember the Jehova Witnesses came over one saturday morning and we went outside to the sundeck and sat down had coffee (or I did), and they said; 'there is nothing perfect in this world' ... I was just amazed because I was looking at a perfect creation on a perfect early summer morning and the coffe was good to boot. Religion will consistantly reccomend distaining your wonderful life. And family and friends. (but that is for the other threads). World peace wont be starting on my block any time soon, or Mili's, my brother in law was over and he made some comment about some type of immigrant comeing in and ruining our unity. I could hardly believe it and said 'what unity? there isn't even unity at this table.' Of course this forum has shown many moments of exquisite harmony. Mostly during that short period of the day when we are all asleep. I personally am into the 2000 doomsday stuff but the problem is that the calendar is off by 7 years and so it was the year 2000 about 5 years ago! OOOOPS! I know -you know who- has said don't compromise your standards but I honestly don't know what that means! I'm willing to learn! will Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 19:18:54 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: observer Subject: Re: Observer's Mili Slam Message: observer: Confused... The Richard Levi I knew in 1975 in Los Angeles wouldn't have been caught dead in an Ashram. Must have been a different guy? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:36:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Student: Quit Pontificating (Re: Observer's Mili Slam) Message: Student: I agree that one shouldn't 'compromise their standards.' I also recall you saying you're fair, open-minded, ready to learn, blah, blah, blah. So, tell me, how can you explain Maharaji's comments below? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 22:27:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Pop Quiz Message: Student, somewhere below you said you're open-minded. You also said M's message hasn't changed over time. Fine, then. For twenty points each, please comment on the following quotes of Maharaji in light of your own above-referenced claims: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 22:43:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Pop Quiz Message: Sorry, correction: No. 3 should read: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 23:20:31 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Pop Quiz Message: Student, somewhere below you said you're open-minded. You also said M's message hasn't changed over time. Fine, then. For twenty points each, please comment on the following quotes of Maharaji in light of your own above-referenced claims: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? 1) yes.....20 2) yes.....20 3) yes.....20 3b yes.....20 ---------------------- Total = INFINETY {Bonus Peace & Bliss} Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:23:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Diver Dan Subject: Re: Pop Quiz Message: Sorry Dan, You don't get to score yourself. In fact, your answers say nothing and are worth no points at all. Care to try again? Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:40:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Here, Student, is your own quote for you to consider in light of Maharaji's: I don't see contradictions in what Maharaji says, only in how he has been interpreted by different people at different times. Now, here are the three Maharaji quotes for your convenience: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:51:24 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Diver Dan Subject: ZZZZZZZZ (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Psssst Diver Dan! [shake shake] Ohhhh Diver Dan! [shake shake] You're snoring Dan! Wake up! It's time to wake up Dan. You're having a niiiiice dream, but you know it's just a dream, and it's time to wake up. That's why you keep coming back to this X page because you know there's something more to life than worshipping guru. You deserve much more than that DD, really. it's scary I know, waking up, but you'll love it once you are awake and able to see things clearly again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:59:55 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex's favourite one Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India November 9, 1990 Published in : ‘Life Force’ Volume 7, Issue 2, April-June 1991 by : Divine United Organization Shri Sant Yogashram, Shahurpur, Mehrauli, New Delhi 110 030, India Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cockpit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: ''Well Guru, how are you?" Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like: The radiance radiated from my beloved is of suds an amazing hue ... They say, "oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness..." But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: « I bow down to the lotusfeet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form. And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. » So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my heart! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 11:08:52 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Mr Ex's favourite one Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Great quote Mr. Ex, I think none of us should be allowed to say anything, all we need to do to make our point is to quote the Master... Okay, granted that guru dispels the darkness, casts away the cobwebs...then what? Is that it? What more does guru do? I think Tom Edison did more in the way of bringing light into the world than any guru has done. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 16:34:45 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Here, Student, is your own quote for you to consider in light of Maharaji's: I don't see contradictions in what Maharaji says, only in how he has been interpreted by different people at different times. Now, here are the three Maharaji quotes for your convenience: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? What happened? I came back to town only to find my posts and responses from last week are not in the archives. Probably just as well as it was rapidly deteriorating to a state of gay-bashing and name calling. Re; the above quotes. Wonderful to know such a thing takes place, don't you think. That the power behind life itself takes form, and we get a chance to be part of it. And in the process, we get to know that power beyond doubt ('cause you can't leave any room for it you know). As he said in one of the quotes, "...to whom will you give your devotion?". To your lover? To your cat? I know... to yourself! Or is it to the god within? Come on you logical people with all the answers, just how is it that a human being gets to fulfill their deeper yearning to devote themselves to something worthy of their devotion? Should we all move to Calcutta and administer to the poor? Should we pick a winning football team? I know, we could devote ourself to our dreams! "I wanna be a fireman when I grow up." No, more politically correct would be to devote one's self to their children. Too bad Joe, you'd probably miss out on that one. How about something less tangible and more motherhood like... happiness, or goodness, or justice. Now Joe, you might just be a winner there - Jim, you unfortunately miss out on that one. Oh I know the quick and dirty solution, just say that's something you don't need. Ahh, the deeper ponderances of life. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:13:29 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Dear Premie: Calm down, take a breath, take a few... you're really thrashing about. I am afraid you're having a very strange dream. My deepest sympathies. I strongly suggest you stay away from this web site. I don't think you are anywhere near ready to wake up yet. Until you are this is not going to be a very nice place for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:32:03 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Dear Premie: Calm down, take a breath, take a few... you're really thrashing about. I am afraid you're having a very strange dream. My deepest sympathies. I strongly suggest you stay away from this web site. I don't think you are anywhere near ready to wake up yet. Until you are this is not going to be a very nice place for you. Try to make a little more sense, okay John? Now, how is it that I'm thrashing about? How is it that I'm having a strange dream. Why do I need your sympathies? If waking up meant I could be like you, why the fuck do you think I'd want to? And finally, why is this not such a nice place for me? Now, ready, set, go, ...try to be articulate this time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:01:00 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Jim Subject: Jim (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student, somewhere below you said you're open-minded. You also said M's message hasn't changed over time. Fine, then. For twenty points each, please comment on the following quotes of Maharaji in light of your own above-referenced claims: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? Without a divine teacher to revere, ego abounds. With ego, there is never clarity, only self-righteousness. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:09:09 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Here, Student, is your own quote for you to consider in light of Maharaji's: I don't see contradictions in what Maharaji says, only in how he has been interpreted by different people at different times. Now, here are the three Maharaji quotes for your convenience: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? What happened? I came back to town only to find my posts and responses from last week are not in the archives. Probably just as well as it was rapidly deteriorating to a state of gay-bashing and name calling. Re; the above quotes. Wonderful to know such a thing takes place, don't you think. That the power behind life itself takes form, and we get a chance to be part of it. And in the process, we get to know that power beyond doubt ('cause you can't leave any room for it you know). As he said in one of the quotes, '...to whom will you give your devotion?'. To your lover? To your cat? I know... to yourself! Or is it to the god within? Come on you logical people with all the answers, just how is it that a human being gets to fulfill their deeper yearning to devote themselves to something worthy of their devotion? Should we all move to Calcutta and administer to the poor? Should we pick a winning football team? I know, we could devote ourself to our dreams! 'I wanna be a fireman when I grow up.' No, more politically correct would be to devote one's self to their children. Too bad Joe, you'd probably miss out on that one. How about something less tangible and more motherhood like... happiness, or goodness, or justice. Now Joe, you might just be a winner there - Jim, you unfortunately miss out on that one. Oh I know the quick and dirty solution, just say that's something you don't need. Ahh, the deeper ponderances of life. According to the Bible, God says don't even love your children more than me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:10:44 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: "A Premie," I think you are a little confused. That was a post from "Jim" you were responding to not "Joe." Just thought you would like to know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:11:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Jim (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student: How predictable. What of your 'open-mind'? And what a 'self-righteous' statement! Really? Is this the only way you can explain these quotes? But, dear Student, this isn't an explanation at all. Care to try again? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:12:47 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: 'A Premie,' I think you are a little confused. That was a post from 'Jim' you were responding to not 'Joe.' Just thought you would like to know. No confusion Joe. Wanted to bring you both into the conversation 'cause you're two of my favorite people. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:28:35 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Jim (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student: How predictable. What of your 'open-mind'? And what a 'self-righteous' statement! Really? Is this the only way you can explain these quotes? But, dear Student, this isn't an explanation at all. Care to try again? How predictable Jim for you to outright discard what someone sincerely and rationaly puts forward in support of Maharaji? Our dear brother "Student" was just identifying one of the reasons why a master is needed if you want to know truth. Without a check on ego, how can you help but have a skewed perspective on reality. Wouldn't you like to be able to SEE life without always filtering it through "ME, ME, ME"? How is that possible when ego is so predominate? Do you care? Question: Who keeps Jim's ego in check? Answer: Jim. Question: Who's minding the hen-house? Answer: The fox. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:44:48 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A premie Subject: Premie, You're forgetting Something (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Premie, You're forgetting your manners. You're asking me questions without first answering mine. Why, then, should I answer yours? Forget all this 'ego' spiritual blather. What about common courtesy? You talk about Student 'sincerely and rationally putting forward' this and that. Is that some sort of substitute for an honest answer? If so, not interested. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:14:28 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Premie, You're forgetting Something (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Premie, You're forgetting your manners. You're asking me questions without first answering mine. Why, then, should I answer yours? Forget all this 'ego' spiritual blather. What about common courtesy? You talk about Student 'sincerely and rationally putting forward' this and that. Is that some sort of substitute for an honest answer? If so, not interested. Take up your gripe about answers with student. Ego is not just a spiritual concept, it's also psychological (a very logical and rational science they say). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:43:34 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: ZZZZZZZZ (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Psssst Diver Dan! [shake shake] Ohhhh Diver Dan! [shake shake] You're snoring Dan! Wake up! It's time to wake up Dan. You're having a niiiiice dream, but you know it's just a dream, and it's time to wake up. That's why you keep coming back to this X page because you know there's something more to life than worshipping guru. You deserve much more than that DD, really. it's scary I know, waking up, but you'll love it once you are awake and able to see things clearly again. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnn! Intresting! Been there done that ,YES, YEs yes you' re absolutely right! I have been dreaming for the last 20 years! Thanks John for your concern ! It is clear and getting clearer every day that I come to this forum that I HAVE been sleeping and dreaming and wasting my life and I sincerly wish to thank most every one here and especially wish to thank all those that attack the experiance of knowledge and those that attack Maharaji. For it has made me look deeper than my day to day life experiances and remember that even though I'm up to my ass in alligators that the purpose was to drain the swamp. And just how real,fulfilling and truly devine the experiances where when I focous on that which I have experianced and gained immense satisfaction from and yes fell asleep, thankyou ! THANKYOU and this is not sarcasim, wit or just another clever post take the words at face value THANKYOU for JIm and the rest have reawaken my thirst for devotion and Guru worship for IT is the real thing It never turned from me Though I may have slept by the river such as Narad,and again thankyou for waking me from this dream of maya and let me get that cool glass of water for my master and return as though the last 20 years of sleep was but an instant in eternity and I can return to the purpose of human body! To serve God! You 'EX'S" PROBABLY NEVER THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD HAVE SUCH A POSITVE EFFECT IN INFLUENCING SOMEONE BACK TO MAHARAJI, but you did and I thankyou keep up the_( good)- bad work Hey maybe you guys all freaked out and turned from Maharji just so you would write those nasty things and awaken Dan back to Satguru and that was the real purpose of this place in the first place.Again heart felt thanks. Clear now & not so scary! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:43:40 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: John K. Subject: Re: ZZZZZZZZ (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Psssst Diver Dan! [shake shake] Ohhhh Diver Dan! [shake shake] You're snoring Dan! Wake up! It's time to wake up Dan. You're having a niiiiice dream, but you know it's just a dream, and it's time to wake up. That's why you keep coming back to this X page because you know there's something more to life than worshipping guru. You deserve much more than that DD, really. it's scary I know, waking up, but you'll love it once you are awake and able to see things clearly again. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnn! Intresting! Been there done that ,YES, YEs yes you' re absolutely right! I have been dreaming for the last 20 years! Thanks John for your concern ! It is clear and getting clearer every day that I come to this forum that I HAVE been sleeping and dreaming and wasting my life and I sincerly wish to thank most every one here and especially wish to thank all those that attack the experiance of knowledge and those that attack Maharaji. For it has made me look deeper than my day to day life experiances and remember that even though I'm up to my ass in alligators that the purpose was to drain the swamp. And just how real,fulfilling and truly devine the experiances where when I focous on that which I have experianced and gained immense satisfaction from and yes fell asleep, thankyou ! THANKYOU and this is not sarcasim, wit or just another clever post take the words at face value THANKYOU for JIm and the rest have reawaken my thirst for devotion and Guru worship for IT is the real thing It never turned from me Though I may have slept by the river such as Narad,and again thankyou for waking me from this dream of maya and let me get that cool glass of water for my master and return as though the last 20 years of sleep was but an instant in eternity and I can return to the purpose of human body! To serve God! You 'EX'S" PROBABLY NEVER THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD HAVE SUCH A POSITVE EFFECT IN INFLUENCING SOMEONE BACK TO MAHARAJI, but you did and I thankyou keep up the_( good)- bad work Hey maybe you guys all freaked out and turned from Maharji just so you would write those nasty things and awaken Dan back to Satguru and that was the real purpose of this place in the first place.Again heart felt thanks. Clear now & not so scary! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:48:33 (EST)
Poster: DD Email: To: Diver Dan Subject: Re: ZZZZZZZZ (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Sorry for the double post, Bill Gates and the sleepers in my eyes! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:44:58 (EST)
Poster: Hey Stu, Email: ** To: Student Subject: Don't miss this one. (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: You said 'According to the bible, god says don't even love your children more than me.' As a student you should be informed that you should not misqoute someone to smear them or make a point. That is nowhere in that book. The book is loaded with sentences that can't stand the light of day but the core one by jesus, or his name that his mom gave him, Yeshua, the quote about love is good. You might try to truly understand that THAT is the request the creator has of you. Not your great efforts to merge. You are not going to just go sailing into heaven without someone's permission. That little design feature is something the eastern types have overlooked. And we assume they have the smart advice. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 05:33:16 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: JW Subject: Re: STUDENT's Edition (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: 'A Premie,' I think you are a little confused. That was a post from 'Jim' you were responding to not 'Joe.' Just thought you would like to know. "You remember Uncle Joe -- he's the one who cut the cake." Who wants to live on Fire Lake? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 06:39:53 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: A premie Subject: perspective (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student: How predictable. What of your 'open-mind'? And what a 'self-righteous' statement! Really? Is this the only way you can explain these quotes? But, dear Student, this isn't an explanation at all. Care to try again? How predictable Jim for you to outright discard what someone sincerely and rationaly puts forward in support of Maharaji? Our dear brother 'Student' was just identifying one of the reasons why a master is needed if you want to know truth. Without a check on ego, how can you help but have a skewed perspective on reality. Wouldn't you like to be able to SEE life without always filtering it through 'ME, ME, ME'? How is that possible when ego is so predominate? Do you care? Question: Who keeps Jim's ego in check? Answer: Jim. Question: Who's minding the hen-house? Answer: The fox. Please!!, If GM'm weird scene represents reality, (the inane speaches, the cultish programmes, the soap-opera muzac, the extremely perverted 'premie scene', etc ) then I would rather opt for the filters. >Without a check on ego, how can you help but have a skewed perspective on reality. It is simply your opinion that a 'master' is needed if a person wants to know the truth. If you are saying that GM is a 'master' who can show this truth, I say that he isn't. Your opinion against mine. (fight by the bike shed after school?) I bought into this bullshit for many years (giving my ego to GM) and all it did was to turn me into bloody clone. Since booting GM and his crazy ideas out, my life has become alot better. Reality is a very interesting subject (ever dropperd acid?) We each have, and are entitled to, our own reality. We create our own reality through our thoughts. Our thoughts are our own business, unless we give up thinking for ourselves and trust a third party, GM or whoever(Germany in the 30's)to do the thinking for us. All I hear from you 'Student' is someone elses thinking, ie, GM's, In other words 'the party line' of thinking, co GM has created an organisation you know. Most big corporations have 'company culture' aka company brainwashing'. You come across as a good company employee, (by the way, is GM paying you?). Sorry, but the sort of hogwash you are spealing does not impress me anymore. Think about it. Are your statements your own, or are they conveniently borrowed from GM's speaches. Oh, it's so easy to repeat GM's thoughts, I know co that's what I used to do (for 23 years). ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:05:02 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Diver Dan Subject: Re: ZZZZZZZZ (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Wow! It sounds like your dream is getting really exciting! Just curious, you say you have been asleep for 20 years, I guess that means you left in the late 70's. Have you been back to see a video? I'd like to hear your impression of the video. I went back to see a few videos and I thought they were very peaceful and mellow. But then I found that I could not muster any enthusiasm for going back again. It was wierd. The only reason I could think of to go back was to have a nice nap. The video viewing room had very comfortable chairs and of course the lights were dimmed. The music was very mellow and to my taste, not very interesting; his message was just like it used to be - very repetitious. It was a relaxing experience very conduicive to a nap. Which is probably why I bring up the analogy of premies sleeping. I just could not really figure out the point of it all. Am I supposed to enjoy looking for so long at him sitting in a chair while these super sweet songs are sung? I got bored looking at him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:27:56 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: perspective (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Please!!, If GM'm weird scene represents reality, (the inane speaches, the cultish programmes, the soap-opera muzac, the extremely perverted 'premie scene', etc ) then I would rather opt for the filters. >Without a check on ego, how can you help but have a skewed perspective on reality. It is simply your opinion that a 'master' is needed if a person wants to know the truth. If you are saying that GM is a 'master' who can show this truth, I say that he isn't. Your opinion against mine. (fight by the bike shed after school?) I bought into this bullshit for many years (giving my ego to GM) and all it did was to turn me into bloody clone. Since booting GM and his crazy ideas out, my life has become alot better. Reality is a very interesting subject (ever dropperd acid?) We each have, and are entitled to, our own reality. We create our own reality through our thoughts. Our thoughts are our own business, unless we give up thinking for ourselves and trust a third party, GM or whoever(Germany in the 30's)to do the thinking for us. All I hear from you 'Student' is someone elses thinking, ie, GM's, In other words 'the party line' of thinking, co GM has created an organisation you know. Most big corporations have 'company culture' aka company brainwashing'. You come across as a good company employee, (by the way, is GM paying you?). Sorry, but the sort of hogwash you are spealing does not impress me anymore. Think about it. Are your statements your own, or are they conveniently borrowed from GM's speaches. Oh, it's so easy to repeat GM's thoughts, I know co that's what I used to do (for 23 years). ex-mug You are entitled to your opinion - I never inferred you weren't. You must not be one of the people that Knowledge is meant for. So all the best. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:46:31 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Your answer Jim (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student: How predictable. What of your 'open-mind'? And what a 'self-righteous' statement! Really? Is this the only way you can explain these quotes? But, dear Student, this isn't an explanation at all. Care to try again? If you don't like my answer, tell me what you expect me to say. I'll just check yes or no. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:54:39 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Hey Stu, Subject: Re: Don't miss this one. (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: You said 'According to the bible, god says don't even love your children more than me.' As a student you should be informed that you should not misqoute someone to smear them or make a point. That is nowhere in that book. The book is loaded with sentences that can't stand the light of day but the core one by jesus, or his name that his mom gave him, Yeshua, the quote about love is good. You might try to truly understand that THAT is the request the creator has of you. Not your great efforts to merge. You are not going to just go sailing into heaven without someone's permission. That little design feature is something the eastern types have overlooked. And we assume they have the smart advice. My comment was only in reference to premie's line about the PC thing to do was devote oneself to one's children. The Bible reference came to mind. Maybe you interpreted that scripture differently than I did. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 21:04:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Your answer Jim (Re: Pop Quiz) Message: Student: How predictable. What of your 'open-mind'? And what a 'self-righteous' statement! Really? Is this the only way you can explain these quotes? But, dear Student, this isn't an explanation at all. Care to try again? If you don't like my answer, tell me what you expect me to say. I'll just check yes or no. Student, Could it be any clearer? I want you to comment on those quotes I posted. Well? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 15:58:03 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Premie vs. Student Message: Someone is currently posting on the forum as "Student" and this reminded me that in going through some stuff for background in Kurt Anderson's article, I noticed that he said that at some point in the 80s, the title "premie" was replaced with the title "student." But the "premies" who post on this forum still tend to refer to themselves as such, except perhaps for this most recent poster. Does anyone know anything about this? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 16:16:44 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Someone is currently posting on the forum as 'Student' and this reminded me that in going through some stuff for background in Kurt Anderson's article, I noticed that he said that at some point in the 80s, the title 'premie' was replaced with the title 'student.' But the 'premies' who post on this forum still tend to refer to themselves as such, except perhaps for this most recent poster. Does anyone know anything about this? I have heard Maharaji refer to people with Knowledge as students several times, especially in recent videos. The term "premie" is no longer used except in conversation between "old-timers." Premie is easier than PWK. I use student because that is how I try to be. Self-education is a lifetime commitment. For me to learn, I have to keep an open mind, stay curious, question my assumptions, and trust myself. This forum forces me to question assumptions. I enjoy differentiating between my assumptions and what I know is true within. I've been the child of a premie for 25 years. At 28, I have old and new ideas. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 17:43:30 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: Just curious...What do you think M has taught you, or is teaching you? Thanks! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 17:59:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Student: I used to endure a lot of jokes about premature birth. Almost no one could relate to the term "Premie" even after I explained it. It has the same sort of "elan" as "couscous" or "banana," if you know what I mean. "Student," however, is not very differentiating. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 18:28:34 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: Just curious...What do you think M has taught you, or is teaching you? Thanks! I am learning to never compromise where my own happiness is concerned. In saying that, selfishness comes to mind. But the happiness I experience in practicing Knowledge does not involve taking from others in any sense. I am learning discipline. Now I've heard many concepts of discipline in my life. The most distasteful would be the type of discipline that was imposed in the ashrams. Premies who chose to live in ashrams presumably wanted that kind of structure imposed on them. The problem with that kind of top-down set-up is the student has no ownership, no input, in the learning process. One cannot force self-discipline unless the student has the desire for it. The definition I mean is Discipline is remembering what you really want. When I train myself to want happiness above all else, I eschew self-destructive behaviors. In practicing Knowledge, I recognize when behaviors (and relationships) are destructive more quickly and find it easier to let go of some of them when Knowledge provides me with a self-fulfilling experience. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 18:31:54 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Student: I used to endure a lot of jokes about premature birth. Almost no one could relate to the term 'Premie' even after I explained it. It has the same sort of 'elan' as 'couscous' or 'banana,' if you know what I mean. 'Student,' however, is not very differentiating. -Scott What do you mean by "It has the same sort of elan as couscous or banana?" How do you think "Student" is meant to be differentiating? I'm not trying to differentiate myself as much as describe myself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:10:23 (EST)
Poster: Observer Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Research for the Kurt Andersen article mentioned in the begining of this thread refers to a suposed, but yet to be proof positive published, upcoming article in the New Yorker. It is discussed in earlier threads in the archives, where it is written according to some in the know, that the article is not so negative as it might could have been if it will be as it is now. Differentiating members is a key sign of a cult. But Scott didn't/doesn't find relatability or pizzaz in the word "premie". They want to bring discussion around key elements making and defining the cult. Which by the way, Scott is right, "student" isn't very differentiating, and it never caught on that premies refered to themselves as "students". Kind regards. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:16:41 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: Just curious...What do you think M has taught you, or is teaching you? Thanks! I am learning to never compromise where my own happiness is concerned. In saying that, selfishness comes to mind. But the happiness I experience in practicing Knowledge does not involve taking from others in any sense. I am learning discipline. Now I've heard many concepts of discipline in my life. The most distasteful would be the type of discipline that was imposed in the ashrams. Premies who chose to live in ashrams presumably wanted that kind of structure imposed on them. The problem with that kind of top-down set-up is the student has no ownership, no input, in the learning process. One cannot force self-discipline unless the student has the desire for it. The definition I mean is Discipline is remembering what you really want. When I train myself to want happiness above all else, I eschew self-destructive behaviors. In practicing Knowledge, I recognize when behaviors (and relationships) are destructive more quickly and find it easier to let go of some of them when Knowledge provides me with a self-fulfilling experience. I wouldn't be so fast to "presume" that those who lived in Guru Maharaj Ji's ashrams did so because they "wanted that kind of structure imposed on them." For me, that certainly was not true. I "chose" to live in the ashram because I wanted to dedicate my life to the object of my devotion, Guru Maharaj Ji, and the ashram was a means set up by him to do that. It wasn't a matter of wanting to live that lifestyle, it was matter of wanting to dedicate and devote. I actually very much disliked living that lifestyle. But, as a devotee, Maharaji demanded that you surrender your personal choices and preferences to him, since he was the master in charge of leading the way to true happiness and fulfillment. Since I had faith in him as the perfect master, I did as he prescribed, not as I would have preferred. But I agree that the ashram was antithetical to what you are proposing, which wasn't at all what Maharaji taught in the years I followed him, which was for the "student" to have input and ownership of the learning process. In fact, the whole point of what Maharaji taught was to lose your "self" entirely, essentially that it could disappear into the truth, love and experience of the essence of life he claimed to be revealing. And I guess my experience is the opposite of yours, in the sense that I found the practice of knowledge, at least in the way Maharaji presecribed it, to actually make it less likely that I would recognize destructive elements affecting my life. I found it to be a de-sensitizing experience, in the sense that I focused on an internal phenomenon, and externally, to the extent I could, I focused on worshipping and serving Guru Maharaj Ji. I found that this all-encompasing process made me much less self-aware. In fact, I found that I really didn't have even an awareness of whether I was happy or sad, fulfilled or empty, and that in some cases, it made me more vulnerable to negative influences outside of me, because I had few defenses to use to deal with them. It was after I left knowledge and Maharaji entirely that that kind of awareness returned. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:25:39 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Observer Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Research for the Kurt Andersen article mentioned in the begining of this thread refers to a suposed, but yet to be proof positive published, upcoming article in the New Yorker. It is discussed in earlier threads in the archives, where it is written according to some in the know, that the article is not so negative as it might could have been if it will be as it is now. Differentiating members is a key sign of a cult. But Scott didn't/doesn't find relatability or pizzaz in the word 'premie'. They want to bring discussion around key elements making and defining the cult. Which by the way, Scott is right, 'student' isn't very differentiating, and it never caught on that premies refered to themselves as 'students'. Kind regards. Re The New Yorker Article. Yes, it supposedly will be published in the next few weeks. I obviously have no idea what it will say, although I did answer some questions posed to me by Kurt, and a fact checker from the New Yorker contacted me last week to comment/confirm certain of these things. One of the things mentioned was the "student" vs. "premie" titles and I was unaware if that kind of change had actually taken place or not. Hence, I asked if anyone else had heard of this. By the way, the article is not specifically about DLM, EV or Maharaji. It is about Kurt's relationship with his brother and sister who got involved with M in the early 70s and went through all the changes we all did, and how that affected his relationship with them. But, again, I have no idea what it will actually say. When you say "student" never caught on, do you imply that it was recommended by M or others that the title be used to refer to people who follow Maharaji? Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:34:08 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Observer Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Research for the Kurt Andersen article mentioned in the begining of this thread refers to a suposed, but yet to be proof positive published, upcoming article in the New Yorker. It is discussed in earlier threads in the archives, where it is written according to some in the know, that the article is not so negative as it might could have been if it will be as it is now. Differentiating members is a key sign of a cult. But Scott didn't/doesn't find relatability or pizzaz in the word 'premie'. They want to bring discussion around key elements making and defining the cult. Which by the way, Scott is right, 'student' isn't very differentiating, and it never caught on that premies refered to themselves as 'students'. Kind regards. I think I understand. It wasn't easy with phrases such as "might could have been." Thanks :-} Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:35:55 (EST)
Poster: observer Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: >When you say 'student' never caught on, do you imply that it was recommended by M or others that the title be used to refer to people who follow Maharaji? > JW, thanks for putting a question my way, and I don't want to drop the ball, but I'm afraid I don't really know the answer. Maybe others would inform me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:44:50 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: Just curious...What do you think M has taught you, or is teaching you? Thanks! I am learning to never compromise where my own happiness is concerned. In saying that, selfishness comes to mind. But the happiness I experience in practicing Knowledge does not involve taking from others in any sense. I am learning discipline. Now I've heard many concepts of discipline in my life. The most distasteful would be the type of discipline that was imposed in the ashrams. Premies who chose to live in ashrams presumably wanted that kind of structure imposed on them. The problem with that kind of top-down set-up is the student has no ownership, no input, in the learning process. One cannot force self-discipline unless the student has the desire for it. The definition I mean is Discipline is remembering what you really want. When I train myself to want happiness above all else, I eschew self-destructive behaviors. In practicing Knowledge, I recognize when behaviors (and relationships) are destructive more quickly and find it easier to let go of some of them when Knowledge provides me with a self-fulfilling experience. I wouldn't be so fast to 'presume' that those who lived in Guru Maharaj Ji's ashrams did so because they 'wanted that kind of structure imposed on them.' For me, that certainly was not true. I 'chose' to live in the ashram because I wanted to dedicate my life to the object of my devotion, Guru Maharaj Ji, and the ashram was a means set up by him to do that. It wasn't a matter of wanting to live that lifestyle, it was matter of wanting to dedicate and devote. I actually very much disliked living that lifestyle. But, as a devotee, Maharaji demanded that you surrender your personal choices and preferences to him, since he was the master in charge of leading the way to true happiness and fulfillment. Since I had faith in him as the perfect master, I did as he prescribed, not as I would have preferred. But I agree that the ashram was antithetical to what you are proposing, which wasn't at all what Maharaji taught in the years I followed him, which was for the 'student' to have input and ownership of the learning process. In fact, the whole point of what Maharaji taught was to lose your 'self' entirely, essentially that it could disappear into the truth, love and experience of the essence of life he claimed to be revealing. And I guess my experience is the opposite of yours, in the sense that I found the practice of knowledge, at least in the way Maharaji presecribed it, to actually make it less likely that I would recognize destructive elements affecting my life. I found it to be a de-sensitizing experience, in the sense that I focused on an internal phenomenon, and externally, to the extent I could, I focused on worshipping and serving Guru Maharaj Ji. I found that this all-encompasing process made me much less self-aware. In fact, I found that I really didn't have even an awareness of whether I was happy or sad, fulfilled or empty, and that in some cases, it made me more vulnerable to negative influences outside of me, because I had few defenses to use to deal with them. It was after I left knowledge and Maharaji entirely that that kind of awareness returned. Children were only allowed to visit for satsang. I am grateful that I never had such a negative experience in devotion to Maharaji. Education, how people learn best, the role of the teacher, the role of the student...these concepts are evolving everywhere. Thank you Darwin. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 20:05:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Student Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: I think I understand. It wasn't easy with phrases such as 'might could have been.' Thanks :-} Dear Student - I am curious when you say that you've been around since you were three - obviously one or both of your parents were premies. Did you go to satsang as a child? How old were you when you got knowledge? I have some ex-premie friends who have children your age (none of them ever recieved K, as far as I know), so it would be interesting to hear your story. As much as you choose to tell, that is. P.S. People do say "might could" in the South - technically grammatically incorrect, but who cares... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 20:17:00 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Student: I used to endure a lot of jokes about premature birth. Almost no one could relate to the term 'Premie' even after I explained it. It has the same sort of 'elan' as 'couscous' or 'banana,' if you know what I mean. 'Student,' however, is not very differentiating. -Scott What do you mean by 'It has the same sort of elan as couscous or banana?' How do you think 'Student' is meant to be differentiating? I'm not trying to differentiate myself as much as describe myself. Student: Just kidding about the sound of the word. I took a lot of guff from family and friends over that designation. I don't know any other group that describes their adherents as "premies," not even other meditation groups in the same sant mat tradition. They called themselves "satsangis." "Student" is descriptive but very generic. Everyone has been a student. At is immanently "acceptable," which is not necessarily bad. One of the requirements of a description is that it differentiate you somehow. Are you saying that you are identical to the members of my college classes, save for quality of course? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 20:35:44 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: Just curious...What do you think M has taught you, or is teaching you? Thanks! I am learning to never compromise where my own happiness is concerned. In saying that, selfishness comes to mind. But the happiness I experience in practicing Knowledge does not involve taking from others in any sense. I am learning discipline. Now I've heard many concepts of discipline in my life. The most distasteful would be the type of discipline that was imposed in the ashrams. Premies who chose to live in ashrams presumably wanted that kind of structure imposed on them. The problem with that kind of top-down set-up is the student has no ownership, no input, in the learning process. One cannot force self-discipline unless the student has the desire for it. The definition I mean is Discipline is remembering what you really want. When I train myself to want happiness above all else, I eschew self-destructive behaviors. In practicing Knowledge, I recognize when behaviors (and relationships) are destructive more quickly and find it easier to let go of some of them when Knowledge provides me with a self-fulfilling experience. Student: This is fascinating. I had a desire to approach K in this way, but had to leave to do it. There was too much "cross-pressure" (a Marxist term) within premiedom. Another word for it might be co-dependence. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 23:50:28 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: The word "student" in connection with being a follower of M makes it all sound pretty generic and harmless (which it is NOT!). Probably another ploy on his part to market his trip in a more mainstream manner. Buddhist teachers call their followers "students", maybe this is where he picked it up. The term student implies the "learner" retains some individuality, autonomy and control over his situation, which, if you really listen to what M. is saying (and more particularly what he said in the past about devotion and surrender) is missing entirely from the equation. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 00:17:40 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Children were only allowed to visit for satsang. I am grateful that I never had such a negative experience in devotion to Maharaji. Education, how people learn best, the role of the teacher, the role of the student...these concepts are evolving everywhere. Thank you Darwin. Why are you so confident in the concept of evolution. Couldn't Maharaji actually be dissembling, rather than "improving?" Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:09:21 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: I have read what you wrote twice now, and maybe I am missing something here, but I don't think you answered my question: "What has M taught you, or is teaching you?" What you described is what you are teaching yourself or what you are learning from the things that you do in your life. I want to know if M is actually teaching you something specific. I know this might sound incredibly naive, but I think a master (or a teacher) should actually 'teach' and what they 'teach' should be something specific and describeable. It can't be described as 'beyond words'. A sunset, climbing a mountain, sex, friendship - they all teach us something 'beyond words'. I really want to be fair and positive about my past life with M, but I honestly cannot remember anything that I learned from 'him'. I am the one who taught myself to meditate. [Yeah, some crazy guy named parlokanand, in a hurry to catch an airplane, showed me four unbelievably simple techniques, but I am the one who had to sweat it out in the dark under a blanket. I never had any specific instruction from my guru other than 'meditate constantly' which now that I think of it was hardly helpful at all since that is an impossible piece of advice to follow.] But anyway, I don't have much time to get into this, but just curious: do you even expect specific instruction from someone who you believe to be a spiritual master? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:34:52 (EST)
Poster: observer Email: To: Katie and student Subject: off topic-Southernisms (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Katie, "...the South..." You do indeed read between the lines! You spotted my failed attempt at vernacular humor from below the Mason-Dixon. Now... if I could just to get to that spelling class... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 13:13:16 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Children were only allowed to visit for satsang. I am grateful that I never had such a negative experience in devotion to Maharaji. Education, how people learn best, the role of the teacher, the role of the student...these concepts are evolving everywhere. Thank you Darwin. I also question that an evolution theory really means Maharaji has "evolved" out of his previous megalomaniac and abusive behaviors. "Evolution" implies that an organism changes to better its own chances or survival. [This usually takes generations, but set that aside for the moment.] If Maharaji has "evolved" to better his own chances of survival, the could well mean that he has changed only to the extent he must to keep enough devotees attached to him to finance his luxurious lifestyle and perhaps to maintain his pathological need to be worshipped. This could well mean that the devotees are still being deceived, only in a manner that doesn't send them, and their checkbooks, heading for the hills. Now, the deovtees may have "evolved" too. I certainly hope so, but in my experience, what Maharaji says and stands for greatly discouraged evolution, if there is any chance that evolution might mean the devotee might "evolve" away from him. I doubt you can recall what happened in 1976, but that was a case in point. And if the devotee is discouraged from doing that, any evolution that takes place is in spite of Maharaji, and not encouraged by him. This is not the sign of a very good master. I firmly believe I "evolved" and realized that Maharaji was a very destructive influence on my life, and it was a difficult "evolution" but necessary nonetheless. I also think I got zero encouragement from M or the premies to do this. To the contrary, Maharaji scared the shit out of me to even consider it. I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 14:48:37 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Dear Student: I have read what you wrote twice now, and maybe I am missing something here, but I don't think you answered my question: 'What has M taught you, or is teaching you?' What you described is what you are teaching yourself or what you are learning from the things that you do in your life. I want to know if M is actually teaching you something specific. I know this might sound incredibly naive, but I think a master (or a teacher) should actually 'teach' and what they 'teach' should be something specific and describeable. It can't be described as 'beyond words'. A sunset, climbing a mountain, sex, friendship - they all teach us something 'beyond words'. I really want to be fair and positive about my past life with M, but I honestly cannot remember anything that I learned from 'him'. I am the one who taught myself to meditate. [Yeah, some crazy guy named parlokanand, in a hurry to catch an airplane, showed me four unbelievably simple techniques, but I am the one who had to sweat it out in the dark under a blanket. I never had any specific instruction from my guru other than 'meditate constantly' which now that I think of it was hardly helpful at all since that is an impossible piece of advice to follow.] But anyway, I don't have much time to get into this, but just curious: do you even expect specific instruction from someone who you believe to be a spiritual master? Can any teacher "specifically instruct" the love of learning? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 15:03:42 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Student to Katie (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: I think I understand. It wasn't easy with phrases such as 'might could have been.' Thanks :-} Dear Student - I am curious when you say that you've been around since you were three - obviously one or both of your parents were premies. Did you go to satsang as a child? How old were you when you got knowledge? I have some ex-premie friends who have children your age (none of them ever recieved K, as far as I know), so it would be interesting to hear your story. As much as you choose to tell, that is. P.S. People do say 'might could' in the South - technically grammatically incorrect, but who cares... My mother received Knowledge when I was three. The two of us listened to satsang and went to programs (festivals) as often as possible. Financial ups and downs affected this effort of course. I slept through many, many hours of satsang. I listened, I danced, I sang, I rode on the shoulders of tall premies to watch Maharaji dance. I received Knowledge from Ira Woods at 13. That was the youngest allowed to receive Knowledge at the time. There was no pressure from Mom, ever. She never discouraged me from joining cousins in church or whatever. Puberty and the desire to appear "normal" prevented me from practicing for a long time. There was high school, college, marriage...too busy. My ex-husband was not openly critical of Maharaji, but not interested either. I still liked going to programs. I viewed Knowledge as a tool that I would use when I decided I wanted that experience bad enough. It felt like my own personal safety net, even though I never practiced. At 26 I recognized that I was not happy. My husband was always negative and critical toward everyone around him, I had never been independent and I started to get excited about my future. I was alive, but I was ready to start living. Divorce, independence, practicing Knowledge, pursuing my career interests, these are changes in my life that I like. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 15:07:51 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Student: I used to endure a lot of jokes about premature birth. Almost no one could relate to the term 'Premie' even after I explained it. It has the same sort of 'elan' as 'couscous' or 'banana,' if you know what I mean. 'Student,' however, is not very differentiating. -Scott What do you mean by 'It has the same sort of elan as couscous or banana?' How do you think 'Student' is meant to be differentiating? I'm not trying to differentiate myself as much as describe myself. Student: Just kidding about the sound of the word. I took a lot of guff from family and friends over that designation. I don't know any other group that describes their adherents as 'premies,' not even other meditation groups in the same sant mat tradition. They called themselves 'satsangis.' 'Student' is descriptive but very generic. Everyone has been a student. At is immanently 'acceptable,' which is not necessarily bad. One of the requirements of a description is that it differentiate you somehow. Are you saying that you are identical to the members of my college classes, save for quality of course? -Scott I just learn because I love it. Of course I like to choose what I learn when I can. I'm sure there are people in your college class like me. Some may be suffering through college for a money-making diploma. I would argue that everyone has loved learning at some point. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 16:13:29 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Hey no fair! you're not answering my question, you are simply asking me another one. But to show I am such a great sport, I will answer yours. Yes, I do believe a teacher can teach a student to love learning, but I don't see how a teacher can do that without teaching something else also. For instance, I had a fantastic piano teacher when I was a teenager. After a lesson with him, I was totally excited about learning the piano because he taught me very specific things. I would not have been so excited if he had not taught me anything useful. It was because he gave me useful information that I became excited. My unanswered question to you was: do you expect specific instruction from a spiritual master? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:00:28 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Children were only allowed to visit for satsang. I am grateful that I never had such a negative experience in devotion to Maharaji. Education, how people learn best, the role of the teacher, the role of the student...these concepts are evolving everywhere. Thank you Darwin. I also question that an evolution theory really means Maharaji has 'evolved' out of his previous megalomaniac and abusive behaviors. 'Evolution' implies that an organism changes to better its own chances or survival. [This usually takes generations, but set that aside for the moment.] If Maharaji has 'evolved' to better his own chances of survival, the could well mean that he has changed only to the extent he must to keep enough devotees attached to him to finance his luxurious lifestyle and perhaps to maintain his pathological need to be worshipped. This could well mean that the devotees are still being deceived, only in a manner that doesn't send them, and their checkbooks, heading for the hills. Now, the deovtees may have 'evolved' too. I certainly hope so, but in my experience, what Maharaji says and stands for greatly discouraged evolution, if there is any chance that evolution might mean the devotee might 'evolve' away from him. I doubt you can recall what happened in 1976, but that was a case in point. And if the devotee is discouraged from doing that, any evolution that takes place is in spite of Maharaji, and not encouraged by him. This is not the sign of a very good master. I firmly believe I 'evolved' and realized that Maharaji was a very destructive influence on my life, and it was a difficult 'evolution' but necessary nonetheless. I also think I got zero encouragement from M or the premies to do this. To the contrary, Maharaji scared the shit out of me to even consider it. I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. Joe, there you go doing what you consistently blame me for. You think you know what evolution has taken place for other people? To say you think you know where Student or where I'm at is incredible after all the grief you tried to give me about doing the same thing to you. You really are a narrow minded little hypocrite with a fist-sized dung-beatle up your ass that causes you to be quite malicious in your attacks. You're not a very nice man Joe. The kicker is you try to come on like you're all for truth and justice. What a crock of shit! I have most certainly evolved in my life, and Maharaji's input has been very positive in that evolution. He has been a constant example of how I can stand on my own experience of life, and trust myself. That has been a foundation for an independance and freedom that I could only ever dream of. I didn't get that kind of input anywhere else Joe. I really don't know how he had the opposite effect on you... can't speak to that. I can say that he has given ME (that is the real me)more support than anyone else. And he has shown me secrets about life I could never imagine I'd ever know. Once again joe, you missed it. Too bad. So Joe, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, okay? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:16:08 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Joe, there you go doing what you consistently blame me for. You think you know what evolution has taken place for other people? To say you think you know where Student or where I'm at is incredible after all the grief you tried to give me about doing the same thing to you. You really are a narrow minded little hypocrite with a fist-sized dung-beatle up your ass that causes you to be quite malicious in your attacks. You're not a very nice man Joe. The kicker is you try to come on like you're all for truth and justice. What a crock of shit! I have most certainly evolved in my life, and Maharaji's input has been very positive in that evolution. He has been a constant example of how I can stand on my own experience of life, and trust myself. That has been a foundation for an independance and freedom that I could only ever dream of. I didn't get that kind of input anywhere else Joe. I really don't know how he had the opposite effect on you... can't speak to that. I can say that he has given ME (that is the real me)more support than anyone else. And he has shown me secrets about life I could never imagine I'd ever know. Once again joe, you missed it. Too bad. So Joe, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, okay? I acknowledge your thoroughly abusive post. Any objective person reading it can judge for themselves how far you have evolved. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:42:41 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Joe, there you go doing what you consistently blame me for. You think you know what evolution has taken place for other people? To say you think you know where Student or where I'm at is incredible after all the grief you tried to give me about doing the same thing to you. You really are a narrow minded little hypocrite with a fist-sized dung-beatle up your ass that causes you to be quite malicious in your attacks. You're not a very nice man Joe. The kicker is you try to come on like you're all for truth and justice. What a crock of shit! I have most certainly evolved in my life, and Maharaji's input has been very positive in that evolution. He has been a constant example of how I can stand on my own experience of life, and trust myself. That has been a foundation for an independance and freedom that I could only ever dream of. I didn't get that kind of input anywhere else Joe. I really don't know how he had the opposite effect on you... can't speak to that. I can say that he has given ME (that is the real me)more support than anyone else. And he has shown me secrets about life I could never imagine I'd ever know. Once again joe, you missed it. Too bad. So Joe, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, okay? I acknowledge your thoroughly abusive post. Any objective person reading it can judge for themselves how far you have evolved. So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:25:04 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Hey no fair! you're not answering my question, you are simply asking me another one. But to show I am such a great sport, I will answer yours. Yes, I do believe a teacher can teach a student to love learning, but I don't see how a teacher can do that without teaching something else also. For instance, I had a fantastic piano teacher when I was a teenager. After a lesson with him, I was totally excited about learning the piano because he taught me very specific things. I would not have been so excited if he had not taught me anything useful. It was because he gave me useful information that I became excited. My unanswered question to you was: do you expect specific instruction from a spiritual master? You wanted to learn piano. Your fantastic teacher must have loved piano too, that enthusiasm is communicated when both teacher and student are open to it. In education, fostering that enthusiasm is as important, if not more so, than the content. If the teacher can make the student thirsty for enthusiasm, the student will seek the content long after "graduation." Maharaji's content, in my humble opinion, is discipline: remembering what you want and knowing how to get it. You may wonder why I return to Maharaji when I can get the content. I take karate. I'm not very advanced yet, but advanced enough to teach beginners on the side. When I train alone or when I teach it, how far I push myself is limited. It is only when I attend my sensei's class that I reach past my current limitations. The more I attend his class, the better I get. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:42:57 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? Well, if you are going to discuss hypocrisy, you might first learn how to spell it. But, seriously, spelling errors and typos do not count on this forum, otherwise I'm sure I would have flunked out by now. But in general, when it comes to hypocrisy and who exibits it, that old adage of "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" applies. I say this because once again, you make up out of whole cloth what I said to "student" and then attack it. I never once said "student" had not "evolved." My post is still sitting there and if you can find where I said that, please let me know. But I did point out that 'evolution' can go in both directions, good and bad from the devotees' point of view. I also asked whether M encouraged evolution, and, if so, if that extended to evolving away from him. In my experience he has never done that. And, from what I can tell, his "evolution" consists of toning down the rhetoric and getting rid of some hindi trappings. That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage "evolution" if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that "if you dont' like it leave it" either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure "student" is capable of doing that. I also expressed my "evolution" away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 19:27:32 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage 'evolution' if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that 'if you dont' like it leave it' either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure 'student' is capable of doing that. I also expressed my 'evolution' away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. I'm glad you find my perspective refreshing. Unfortunately I might put a stagnant twist on it for you when I say I don't see Maharaji's past actions as abuse at all. Knowledge was presented in a Hindu context. That is the context that Maharaji knew. Any changes since, any evolution if you will, was initiated by Maharaji. I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because, in my "blind" devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives. Maharaji does invite me to evolve. You, JW, are looking for people to evolve away from their teacher. That is only reasonable if the teacher stops evolving and the student passes the teacher. As long as I hear wisdom from Maharaji that enlightens me, as long as my ego is humbled without my spirit being crushed, I will return to Maharaji and revere him as my teacher. He does not hurt me. I know my core. I know myself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 19:36:43 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Joy Subject: Re: Preemies, Premies and Students (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: The word 'student' in connection with being a follower of M makes it all sound pretty generic and harmless (which it is NOT!). Probably another ploy on his part to market his trip in a more mainstream manner. Buddhist teachers call their followers 'students', maybe this is where he picked it up. The term student implies the 'learner' retains some individuality, autonomy and control over his situation, which, if you really listen to what M. is saying (and more particularly what he said in the past about devotion and surrender) is missing entirely from the equation. Joy, I think you've been reading too many 'anti-cult' books. I have been a student, disciple, follower, whatever, for twenty-five years now. I've experienced wonderful personal growth in all respects, and have never felt my personal autonomy compromised in any way. The Knowledge, and Maharaji were there for me in the darkest of times, showing their true colors when all other 'do-gooders' just turned their selfish little mugs away. Also, the best times of my life were at the festivals and in satsang, with no strings attached. You are guys simply lying when you say that Maharaji is in this for his personal gratification. He never asked me a cent, yet always gave from his boundless heart. His Heart is a source of a love so pure and true that nothing in this world can compare. There is just something about Him that a hungry soul can never get enough of. Talk about charisma... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:58:46 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Well, if you are going to discuss hypocrisy, you might first learn how to spell it. But, seriously, spelling errors and typos do not count on this forum, otherwise I'm sure I would have flunked out by now. But in general, when it comes to hypocrisy and who exibits it, that old adage of 'let he who has not sinned cast the first stone' applies. I say this because once again, you make up out of whole cloth what I said to 'student' and then attack it. I never once said 'student' had not 'evolved.' My post is still sitting there and if you can find where I said that, please let me know. But I did point out that 'evolution' can go in both directions, good and bad from the devotees' point of view. I also asked whether M encouraged evolution, and, if so, if that extended to evolving away from him. In my experience he has never done that. And, from what I can tell, his 'evolution' consists of toning down the rhetoric and getting rid of some hindi trappings. That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage 'evolution' if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that 'if you dont' like it leave it' either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure 'student' is capable of doing that. I also expressed my 'evolution' away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. I knew the spelling didn't look right but I was too lazy to check. I knew I could count on you to pick it up. Agreed. Maharaji has often said that if you don't want to pursue Knowledge you don't have to. He also said the door is open if you decide later that you do. Re; the point of hypocrisy, let me quote you: >> I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. >> Joe, everyone could potentially be in a rut, whether they have K or not. Don't imply like you have that a rut is the state of premies. Evolution is only as dynamic as the degree that one embraces change. That is the ONLY rate-determining factor. Life will test you on that one Joe so be careful you're not leading with your chin. My evolution is a personal path that no-one can exploit. It started long before I ever heard of Maharaji, and I trust will continue until I die. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:20:35 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage 'evolution' if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that 'if you dont' like it leave it' either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure 'student' is capable of doing that. I also expressed my 'evolution' away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. I'm glad you find my perspective refreshing. Unfortunately I might put a stagnant twist on it for you when I say I don't see Maharaji's past actions as abuse at all. Knowledge was presented in a Hindu context. That is the context that Maharaji knew. Any changes since, any evolution if you will, was initiated by Maharaji. I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because, in my 'blind' devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives. Maharaji does invite me to evolve. You, JW, are looking for people to evolve away from their teacher. That is only reasonable if the teacher stops evolving and the student passes the teacher. As long as I hear wisdom from Maharaji that enlightens me, as long as my ego is humbled without my spirit being crushed, I will return to Maharaji and revere him as my teacher. He does not hurt me. I know my core. I know myself. It's refreshing to hear another person, premie or otherwise, who can say with assurity that they know their core. So much of the stuff in this discussion is what-if's and supposition. You said something real "Student" that no-one can argue with. It feels good! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:27:41 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: I'm glad you find my perspective refreshing. Unfortunately I might put a stagnant twist on it for you when I say I don't see Maharaji's past actions as abuse at all. Knowledge was presented in a Hindu context. That is the context that Maharaji knew. Any changes since, any evolution if you will, was initiated by Maharaji. I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because, in my 'blind' devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives. Maharaji does invite me to evolve. You, JW, are looking for people to evolve away from their teacher. That is only reasonable if the teacher stops evolving and the student passes the teacher. As long as I hear wisdom from Maharaji that enlightens me, as long as my ego is humbled without my spirit being crushed, I will return to Maharaji and revere him as my teacher. He does not hurt me. I know my core. I know myself. It's refreshing to hear another person, premie or otherwise, who can say with assurity that they know their core. So much of the stuff in this discussion is what-if's and supposition. You said something real 'Student' that no-one can argue with. It feels good! When I say no-one can argue with you, I mean it. Others can argue with themselves, or amongst themselves, but if you KNOW, you know. Period. And who cares what arguments others inflict on themselves; those are random acts of self-abuse. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 22:49:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Student Subject: Re: Student to Katie (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: My mother received Knowledge when I was three. The two of us listened to satsang and went to programs (festivals) as often as possible. Financial ups and downs affected this effort of course. I slept through many, many hours of satsang. I listened, I danced, I sang, I rode on the shoulders of tall premies to watch Maharaji dance. I received Knowledge from Ira Woods at 13. That was the youngest allowed to receive Knowledge at the time. There was no pressure from Mom, ever. She never discouraged me from joining cousins in church or whatever. Puberty and the desire to appear 'normal' prevented me from practicing for a long time. There was high school, college, marriage...too busy. My ex-husband was not openly critical of Maharaji, but not interested either. I still liked going to programs. I viewed Knowledge as a tool that I would use when I decided I wanted that experience bad enough. It felt like my own personal safety net, even though I never practiced. At 26 I recognized that I was not happy. My husband was always negative and critical toward everyone around him, I had never been independent and I started to get excited about my future. I was alive, but I was ready to start living. Divorce, independence, practicing Knowledge, pursuing my career interests, these are changes in my life that I like. Thanks for answering. I think it's easier to "know" people on the forum when you know a little bit about them [in case you want to know about me, my story is in the "Journeys" entry under Katie (Mischa) H.] I received knowledge when I was sixteen in 1972 - I assume that your mom received knowledge around that time too - and it's always interesting to talk to someone else who also received Knowledge (or heard about Maharaji) at a young age. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 22:55:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: observer Subject: Re: off topic-Southernisms (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Katie, '...the South...' You do indeed read between the lines! You spotted my failed attempt at vernacular humor from below the Mason-Dixon. Now... if I could just to get to that spelling class... I don't know about reading between the lines - I think it's just a result of being from Virginia... I did get away with saying "can't hardly" on the forum the other day without arousing comment. Some more so-called reading between the lines - I take it that you are in Italy, or your e-mail address is anyway? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:56:42 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Student: Quit Avoiding the Obvious (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Student, Your credibility slips by the moment as you continue to tell us all about Maharaji but refuse to answer my most basic questions. Can you discuss him honestly, openly or not? If so, answer me please: what do you have to say about those various claims he made? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 06:03:59 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: -------- Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: [--snip!--] I also question that an evolution theory really means Maharaji has 'evolved' out of his previous megalomaniac and abusive behaviors. [--snip!--] I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. What is enough? When am I evolving fast enough? I presume when I was a young man, I wasn't happy with my rate of evolution (to continue the misuse of the term). So that's perhaps one of the reasons I was ripe for a M conversion; I wasn't yet enough just as I was. Anyone who knew me then will tell you, I was ample, and more than enough. I pretty much flushed a good cognitive ability down the toilet (or what was left of a good cognitive ability, after living in an alcoholic household) -- flushed in favor of Maharaji's 'Rev. Jesse Jackson'-styled sing-song of nonsense. My cognitive abilities were retrained by Maharaji to find sense where there was none, to delight in the absurd, the disconnected, and the abstruse. And to use that delight in the venal and the banal to annoy and provoke my fellows; and to hide behind illogic when called to question. I was bright enough to grasp onto the poetic intrigue of it -- I think Maharaji is an accomplished poet and his best works were poetry (nonlinear, nonrational, intuitive use of language). If a psychotherapist used poetry -- only, to the exclusion of other therapies -- I think they ought to pull his or her license, but good. I don't know. I think people are entitled to something inherantly more responsible than the advice of a poet, when their future is on the line. ALL THE KING'S horses and all the king's men couldn't put And On Anand Ji back together again. Andonanandji had to do that for himself, by this simple declarative sentence: I am enough -- just as I am. To hell with Maharaji, and the horse he rode in on. I want my 21 years back! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:15:26 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: You really are a narrow minded little hypocrite with a fist-sized dung-beatle up your ass that causes you to be quite malicious in your attacks. You're not a very nice manIs it just me? Or is the pot calling the kettle black here? What hateful speech. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:01:03 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Agreed. Maharaji has often said that if you don't want to pursue Knowledge you don't have to. He also said the door is open if you decide later that you do. Re; the point of hypocrisy, let me quote you: >> I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. >> Joe, everyone could potentially be in a rut, whether they have K or not. Don't imply like you have that a rut is the state of premies. Evolution is only as dynamic as the degree that one embraces change. That is the ONLY rate-determining factor. Life will test you on that one Joe so be careful you're not leading with your chin. My evolution is a personal path that no-one can exploit. It started long before I ever heard of Maharaji, and I trust will continue until I die. Concering the supposed developmental process going on with Maharaji, I have first-hand experience with that. I deluded myself into thinking that I was a sophisticated premie, and had moved beyond all the outragious cult-like stuff in the 70s. So, when Guru Maharaj Ji danced bare-chested on the stage, and I found it stupid and repulsive, I deluded myself into thinking I had developed in my relationship with him and could pick and choose the parts of his trip that I thought were helpful and which were not. But what I found out was that this was just a rationalization that kept me involved when I should have left. That was my point. And I never stated that this sort of rationalization was happening to student or not. No, ruts are not limited to premies. I don't know what the term "rate-determining" means, but thanks for the gratuitous advice about life being a test. My point about evolution is that you can't evolve too far if you are sticking to someone like Maharaji who has a vested interest in devotees not evolving away from him. And yes, evolution continues, and can lead in many directions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:09:27 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage 'evolution' if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that 'if you dont' like it leave it' either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure 'student' is capable of doing that. I also expressed my 'evolution' away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. I'm glad you find my perspective refreshing. Unfortunately I might put a stagnant twist on it for you when I say I don't see Maharaji's past actions as abuse at all. Knowledge was presented in a Hindu context. That is the context that Maharaji knew. Any changes since, any evolution if you will, was initiated by Maharaji. I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because, in my 'blind' devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives. Maharaji does invite me to evolve. You, JW, are looking for people to evolve away from their teacher. That is only reasonable if the teacher stops evolving and the student passes the teacher. As long as I hear wisdom from Maharaji that enlightens me, as long as my ego is humbled without my spirit being crushed, I will return to Maharaji and revere him as my teacher. He does not hurt me. I know my core. I know myself. Thanks, student. One correction. I am not looking for people to evolve away from the teacher, I am looking for the teacher's encouragement of his students to take any path of growth the fosters their evolution, even if that includes moving on from the teacher to other teachers, to to no teacher at all. Sorry, I guess I mistook your statements about being glad you weren't involved in the ashrams as a recognition that abuse may have taken place there. But now I understand more where you are coming from, from your "absolute" trust of Maharaji's motives. I used to have that too. And as I said, moving on from that was part of "my" evolution. Just a question too. Do you think each person's path is different? Meaning that what works for you, doesn't work for someone else? Or do you think, in your "absolute trust" that Maharaji and his path are the only way? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:18:46 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: Agreed. Maharaji has often said that if you don't want to pursue Knowledge you don't have to. He also said the door is open if you decide later that you do. Re; the point of hypocrisy, let me quote you: >> I sometimes think there are premies/students of Maharaji running around with the delusion that some sort of developmental process is going on with Maharaji, when in fact they are really in a rut, which Maharaji exploits for his personal material benefit to the maximum he can. >> Joe, everyone could potentially be in a rut, whether they have K or not. Don't imply like you have that a rut is the state of premies. Evolution is only as dynamic as the degree that one embraces change. That is the ONLY rate-determining factor. Life will test you on that one Joe so be careful you're not leading with your chin. My evolution is a personal path that no-one can exploit. It started long before I ever heard of Maharaji, and I trust will continue until I die. Concering the supposed developmental process going on with Maharaji, I have first-hand experience with that. I deluded myself into thinking that I was a sophisticated premie, and had moved beyond all the outragious cult-like stuff in the 70s. So, when Guru Maharaj Ji danced bare-chested on the stage, and I found it stupid and repulsive, I deluded myself into thinking I had developed in my relationship with him and could pick and choose the parts of his trip that I thought were helpful and which were not. But what I found out was that this was just a rationalization that kept me involved when I should have left. That was my point. And I never stated that this sort of rationalization was happening to student or not. No, ruts are not limited to premies. I don't know what the term 'rate-determining' means, but thanks for the gratuitous advice about life being a test. My point about evolution is that you can't evolve too far if you are sticking to someone like Maharaji who has a vested interest in devotees not evolving away from him. And yes, evolution continues, and can lead in many directions. He has said the door is open both ways. He recognizes that K may not be for everyone. I meant by "Rate-determining" that the rate you evolve is entirely related to the degree that you embrace change, i.e., evolution is synonymous with change. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 16:46:38 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: So what's the definition of a truly evolved person Joe, hypocrasy? Or someone calling it what it is? Your contant finger pointing at others is really quite abusive, though you make a real attempt to package it as something higher. Is your glib and sucky answer here an attempt to deny the hypocrasy you've exhibited? That's why I asked if student recalled M ever encouraging personal growth and evolution, other than through devotion and practicing knowledge. I have yet to hear that he has, but I would love to hear it if he has. But, frankly, I find student's perspective refreshing. Student claims to understand Maharaji's abuses of the past, and picks and chooses the parts of his trip that she finds positive in her life and rejects the rest. Maybe that's evolution, or maybe that's just the way she's always been able to approach her relationship with Maharaji. It sounds very healthy. And it is more admirable since to the extent student has evolved, unless there is some evidence to the contrary, student may well have done it in spite of Maharaji rather than with his encouragement. Because I think evolution requires the possibility of casting off things that aren't working, including Maharaji. I have never heard him encourage 'evolution' if that meant leaving him. If you know of him saying that, I'm all ears. And I don't mean his occasional quib that 'if you dont' like it leave it' either. I mean that leaving him could be a positive thing for that person, in terms of personal growth. Now, if student disagress with this in whole or in part, well, that's the type of discussion this forum is about and I'm sure 'student' is capable of doing that. I also expressed my 'evolution' away from Maharaji, and, like I think we both agree, I am entitled to express my own experience, as are you. I'm glad you find my perspective refreshing. Unfortunately I might put a stagnant twist on it for you when I say I don't see Maharaji's past actions as abuse at all. Knowledge was presented in a Hindu context. That is the context that Maharaji knew. Any changes since, any evolution if you will, was initiated by Maharaji. I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because, in my 'blind' devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives. Maharaji does invite me to evolve. You, JW, are looking for people to evolve away from their teacher. That is only reasonable if the teacher stops evolving and the student passes the teacher. As long as I hear wisdom from Maharaji that enlightens me, as long as my ego is humbled without my spirit being crushed, I will return to Maharaji and revere him as my teacher. He does not hurt me. I know my core. I know myself. Thanks, student. One correction. I am not looking for people to evolve away from the teacher, I am looking for the teacher's encouragement of his students to take any path of growth the fosters their evolution, even if that includes moving on from the teacher to other teachers, to to no teacher at all. Sorry, I guess I mistook your statements about being glad you weren't involved in the ashrams as a recognition that abuse may have taken place there. But now I understand more where you are coming from, from your 'absolute' trust of Maharaji's motives. I used to have that too. And as I said, moving on from that was part of 'my' evolution. Just a question too. Do you think each person's path is different? Meaning that what works for you, doesn't work for someone else? Or do you think, in your 'absolute trust' that Maharaji and his path are the only way? Maharaji offers the most direct path to my core. Everyone has a "core." Practicing various religions and meditations may provide others with a path. But for me, that's like learning from a textbook and no instructor. According to history and scripture, there have been many masters. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 17:31:54 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: Just a question too. Do you think each person's path is different? Meaning that what works for you, doesn't work for someone else? Or do you think, in your 'absolute trust' that Maharaji and his path are the only way? Maharaji offers the most direct path to my core. Everyone has a 'core.' Practicing various religions and meditations may provide others with a path. But for me, that's like learning from a textbook and no instructor. According to history and scripture, there have been many masters. So, just so I understand, I get from what you are saying that there are possibly other methods to one's "core" besides Maharaji, including religions, but that having a master is a more direct path for you. And you also say there are other "masters." So, does this mean there are possibily other masters could provide you with the direct path you want like you claim to get from Maharaji? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 17:51:30 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: He has said the door is open both ways. He recognizes that K may not be for everyone. I meant by 'Rate-determining' that the rate you evolve is entirely related to the degree that you embrace change, i.e., evolution is synonymous with change. Well, thanks for that, the statment that Guru Maharaj Ji recognizes that knowedge (and him I guess) may not be for everyone. I never heard him ever say that. If he has, that's a positive development in my book. Knolwedge, and him, certainly weren't "for" me, and apparently thousands of others as well. But unfortunately, that completely contradicts your earlier statements that the only reason we exes have split form Maharaji is because we "misunderstood," implying that if we had "understood" presumably then K and M would have been "for" us. If it isn't "for" you in the first place, no amount of "understanding" will change that. By the way, in regard to this subject, I really liked Jim's quotation of a Maharaji infomercial video some threads below with the following title: "MISUNDERSTANDING: The Tragic Story Of the Lost Premies Of The Late Twentieth Century" Coming soon to a satsang hall near you at no charge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:01:24 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: And also, sorry, I'curious about this, What do you think Maharaji's motives are, that you have blind and absolute trust in? Have you ever spoken to him? Do you think he ever makes mistakes? Is he infallable in his "motives?" Do you think his own self-preservation is one of his motives, or is he entirely selfless? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:10:09 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: My "claim" is my truth. What I get from Knowledge and my relationship with Maharaji is not taken on faith, I know through my experience. What I do take on faith is that there is only one true master at any one point in time. I get this not only from what Maharaji has said, but from the Old and New Testaments. I have yet to explore other scriptures. For me, it is similar to my choice in style of karate. There are dojos on every corner here, yet I drive an hour one way to train with my sensei. This is partly because I feel my chosen style and sensei are superior or, at the very least, well-suited to me. I am satisfied with my master. If I understand you correctly, you would have people search another path. I would not bend over backwards to change anyone's mind on that. Personally, I feel looking elsewhere is a compromise. But, for people to look for that path at all is a good thing. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:29:17 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: And also, sorry, I'curious about this, What do you think Maharaji's motives are, that you have blind and absolute trust in? Have you ever spoken to him? Do you think he ever makes mistakes? Is he infallable in his 'motives?' Do you think his own self-preservation is one of his motives, or is he entirely selfless? I find it difficult to articulate Maharaji's or anyone else's motives. Even examining my own motives for conversing on this forum requires a bit of self-examination. I know you didn't ask, but my reasons for being here are because I enjoy reading and responding about something that makes me feel so good, so alive, so clear (Knowledge). I also enjoy the occasional gratification that someone else shares when they got a good feeling from a post. We all like to be appreciated. I don't even mind exploring my own perceptions when people pose questions or logical criticisms, as long as communication isn't replaced by base name-calling or indignant closed-mindedness. What do I think Maharaji's motives are? I think he loves the experience he gets when Knowledge is shared. I think he thrives in the gratitude from people who appreciate Knowledge. How can people criticize this? A mother or father thrives in the gratitude and love of their children. If you want to question the relationship between Maharaji and the people with Knowledge, you have to examine what each is giving the other. You know of the devotion, the gifts, the love from premies. Have you totally negated the immeasurable that Maharaji gives premies? It cannot be seen or measured. I guess it's easier to see in a happily married couple. They love and share. But there is that physical exchange of love, sex. Without sex, does love exist? Of course. You question whether or not Maharaji truly loves premies and not their money? You can question all day, nothing I can say would dispell your doubt. A premie either sees value in that relationship, or they get a "divorce." Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:33:59 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Evolution (Re: Premie vs. Student) Message: My 'claim' is my truth. What I get from Knowledge and my relationship with Maharaji is not taken on faith, I know through my experience. What I do take on faith is that there is only one true master at any one point in time. I get this not only from what Maharaji has said, but from the Old and New Testaments. I have yet to explore other scriptures. For me, it is similar to my choice in style of karate. There are dojos on every corner here, yet I drive an hour one way to train with my sensei. This is partly because I feel my chosen style and sensei are superior or, at the very least, well-suited to me. I am satisfied with my master. If I understand you correctly, you would have people search another path. I would not bend over backwards to change anyone's mind on that. Personally, I feel looking elsewhere is a compromise. But, for people to look for that path at all is a good thing. Just another correction: I wouldn't "have" people search another path, I was just trying to find out if you thought it could be equivalent to your path, of equal value so to speak. Also, I started a new thread above that I would hope you would participate in. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:52:18 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Premie vs. Student Message: He has said the door is open both ways. He recognizes that K may not be for everyone. I meant by 'Rate-determining' that the rate you evolve is entirely related to the degree that you embrace change, i.e., evolution is synonymous with change. Well, thanks for that, the statment that Guru Maharaj Ji recognizes that knowedge (and him I guess) may not be for everyone. I never heard him ever say that. If he has, that's a positive development in my book. Knolwedge, and him, certainly weren't 'for' me, and apparently thousands of others as well. But unfortunately, that completely contradicts your earlier statements that the only reason we exes have split form Maharaji is because we 'misunderstood,' implying that if we had 'understood' presumably then K and M would have been 'for' us. If it isn't 'for' you in the first place, no amount of 'understanding' will change that. By the way, in regard to this subject, I really liked Jim's quotation of a Maharaji infomercial video some threads below with the following title: 'MISUNDERSTANDING: The Tragic Story Of the Lost Premies Of The Late Twentieth Century' Coming soon to a satsang hall near you at no charge. More like, if you don't understand it, it's probably not for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |