Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 7 | |
From: Feb 20, 1998 |
To: Feb 28, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 21:52:02 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: The album arrived Message: So I just got the Lord of the Universe album. Now I've just got to find a turntable. They also sent me, as a bonus I guess, the fancy, special edition of And it Is Divine ('The Real Life Magazine') that served as a program at Millenium. Remember that issue? Light blue with a big picture of Shri Hans on the front. Special gold print on transparent sheet inside. What a fucking joke. It starts with the proclamation: 'Three years ago, at the 1970 Hans Jayanti, the present Guru Maharaj Ji proclaimed he would establish world peace. This year at Millenium '73 he will set in motion his plan to bring peace on earth ... for a thousand years.' Anyone serious about denying that Maharaji once claimed he was God and that his whole family was Divine better not pick this magazine up. It reeks with this stuff, one bit after another. Here's the standard introduction over Maharaji's signature: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' I can't wait to hear Spread this Knowledge which, to this day, I still confuse with Stairway to Heaven. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 22:30:32 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The album arrived Message: >So I just got the Lord of the Universe album. I have been at the Microsoft Sphinx conference the past few days and missed your story. How did you get a copy of the album? I'll give you $$$ to take it off your hands. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 00:42:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The album arrived Message: So I just got the Lord of the Universe album. Now I've just got to find a turntable. They also sent me, as a bonus I guess, the fancy, special edition of And it Is Divine ('The Real Life Magazine') that served as a program at Millenium. Remember that issue? Light blue with a big picture of Shri Hans on the front. Special gold print on transparent sheet inside. What a fucking joke. It starts with the proclamation: 'Three years ago, at the 1970 Hans Jayanti, the present Guru Maharaj Ji proclaimed he would establish world peace. This year at Millenium '73 he will set in motion his plan to bring peace on earth ... for a thousand years.' Anyone serious about denying that Maharaji once claimed he was God and that his whole family was Divine better not pick this magazine up. It reeks with this stuff, one bit after another. Here's the standard introduction over Maharaji's signature: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' I can't wait to hear Spread this Knowledge which, to this day, I still confuse with Stairway to Heaven. I can't remember the song "Spread this Knowledge". I guess I should be grateful, if it's possible to mix it up with "Stairway to Heaven". I know "Stairway to Heaven" is trite now, but it was significant to me at one point - sort of, anyway ("To be a rock and not to roll..."). By the way, Jim, I am sorry if you felt that I was undercutting you earlier on the forum. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 01:22:59 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Jim Subject: Re: The album arrived Message: So I just got the Lord of the Universe album. Now I've just got to find a turntable. They also sent me, as a bonus I guess, the fancy, special edition of And it Is Divine ('The Real Life Magazine') that served as a program at Millenium. Remember that issue? Light blue with a big picture of Shri Hans on the front. Special gold print on transparent sheet inside. What a fucking joke. It starts with the proclamation: 'Three years ago, at the 1970 Hans Jayanti, the present Guru Maharaj Ji proclaimed he would establish world peace. This year at Millenium '73 he will set in motion his plan to bring peace on earth ... for a thousand years.' Anyone serious about denying that Maharaji once claimed he was God and that his whole family was Divine better not pick this magazine up. It reeks with this stuff, one bit after another. Here's the standard introduction over Maharaji's signature: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' I can't wait to hear Spread this Knowledge which, to this day, I still confuse with Stairway to Heaven. Heh heh, wait until you listen to "Satguru, Your Face is Like the Sun." Heh heh heh Satguru I'm Calling You! You will be surprised at how much of this stuff you remember from the first chord of each song. I'm telling you Jim, this brainwashing is scary! Satguru I'm calling you!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 03:07:21 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Katie Subject: Re: The album arrived Message: "Stairwat to Heaven" trite?? Go and wash your mouth out with soap and water, immediately! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 03:16:26 (EST)
Poster: Sat Guru Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Your face is like a bun (Re: The album arrived) Message: Hee hee. Nobody is gonna read this anyway. Might as well get silly. The fraud of the universe has come to us this day or; Guru Maraaji, you make be wanna fight... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 19:17:54 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM Message: I'll be resetting the forum tomorrow morning about 7:00 AM (EST). This one was a doozie... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 19:47:05 (EST)
Poster: observer Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM Message: Brian, Yes indeed, it was a doozie. Thanks again for all the time and effort you put in. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 21:06:39 (EST)
Poster: Dust at your feet Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Brian Subject: O great Web Master (Re: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM) Message: What's a doozie and will the posts that have appeared since the crash be archived? I think a lot of the posts since then have been very good and have brought out a lot in people. Worth keeping in my opinion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:51:05 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we "exs" ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of "devotion" and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a "new person" was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 19:08:57 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we 'exs' ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of 'devotion' and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a 'new person' was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Knowledge unfolds the treasures of devotion gradually. If you were interested in another person, would you go over to their house and crawl into bed with them before even talking to them? Of course not. You would approach them very sensitively and respond to signals as they are given. If you DID barge in you'd have NO chance of taking future steps, unless they were the kind you wouldn't want to take steps with. The expressions of devotion evolve naturally as the depth of the relationship grows. Through Knowledge that depth DOES grow, and it becomes a very natural desire to express the love you feel. No-one should feel compelled to take any steps that are not real for them, and from my viewpoint no-one is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:10:51 (EST)
Poster: lg Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we 'exs' ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of 'devotion' and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a 'new person' was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Knowledge unfolds the treasures of devotion gradually. If you were interested in another person, would you go over to their house and crawl into bed with them before even talking to them? Of course not. You would approach them very sensitively and respond to signals as they are given. If you DID barge in you'd have NO chance of taking future steps, unless they were the kind you wouldn't want to take steps with. The expressions of devotion evolve naturally as the depth of the relationship grows. Through Knowledge that depth DOES grow, and it becomes a very natural desire to express the love you feel. No-one should feel compelled to take any steps that are not real for them, and from my viewpoint no-one is. I wouldn't crawl into bed with them even after talking to them. Of course not. I wouldn't want to catch AIDS or something like that! You know, people don't walk around with a sign hanging down their neck announcing their disease! Here is what I think of devotion: - Gradually giving my power away to another human being - Being under, A student, Subservient - It means not being responsible for my own life and make my own decision - It means being a puppet at the mercy of (who ever) There's seem to be a conflict here. In one hand, M. gave me myself (the result of letting go a lot of shit when I was practicing) and devotion seem to contradict this. Now, after all the books I've read on the subject, I can say that M. gave me only ONE Truth and that Truth is Myself. My preference is to bow down to my inner self and piss on devotion. It is only one other trick to lure ignorants for his own glory and prestige. THIS MAKES ME MAD!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:19:07 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: lg Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we 'exs' ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of 'devotion' and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a 'new person' was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Knowledge unfolds the treasures of devotion gradually. If you were interested in another person, would you go over to their house and crawl into bed with them before even talking to them? Of course not. You would approach them very sensitively and respond to signals as they are given. If you DID barge in you'd have NO chance of taking future steps, unless they were the kind you wouldn't want to take steps with. The expressions of devotion evolve naturally as the depth of the relationship grows. Through Knowledge that depth DOES grow, and it becomes a very natural desire to express the love you feel. No-one should feel compelled to take any steps that are not real for them, and from my viewpoint no-one is. I wouldn't crawl into bed with them even after talking to them. Of course not. I wouldn't want to catch AIDS or something like that! You know, people don't walk around with a sign hanging down their neck announcing their disease! Here is what I think of devotion: - Gradually giving my power away to another human being - Being under, A student, Subservient - It means not being responsible for my own life and make my own decision - It means being a puppet at the mercy of (who ever) There's seem to be a conflict here. In one hand, M. gave me myself (the result of letting go a lot of shit when I was practicing) and devotion seem to contradict this. Now, after all the books I've read on the subject, I can say that M. gave me only ONE Truth and that Truth is Myself. My preference is to bow down to my inner self and piss on devotion. It is only one other trick to lure ignorants for his own glory and prestige. THIS MAKES ME MAD!!! lg You cannot be devoted to someone whom you don't trust. If you really trust someone, you are happy to give yourself to them as the trust builds. Maybe someday you can trust someone enough that you can know devotion as something more than a set of empty rituals. It is a wonderful feeling. If Maharaji gave you ONE truth, and that was yourself, why not thank him? That's a pretty big thing to get from someone, don't you think? As for his motives (your inference to "glory and prestige") you have nothing upon which to base your claim. See Student's response to JW for a good answer to that question. Stay cool lg. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:51:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: Premie, You're acting like an idiot. Please, let me explain. If you trusted someone on normal, rational human terms, you'd have certain expectations. Think about it. No expectations, no trust. Anyway, if they disappointed you in any respect your trust would suffer. Right? They're not living up to your expectations, time to re-evaluate. Now -- and here's why I say, with all due respect of course, that you're acting like an idiot -- we old-timers once gave Maharaji the ultimate benefit of the doubt. We trusted him and, yes, we expected certain things. What did we expect? Well, one thing was that he knew what the fuck he was talking about, pardonnez-moi. When he said he was finally here, not just some dumb-fuck guru but the big kahonna, the mother ship, the guru of all gurus, here for the final blast through Kali Yuga and on in to the Age of Light and Love, when he said all that, we believed him. But, as you know, Maharaji scored nothing at all in that department. Only a desparate, shameless liar would argue that he already has saved the world. Only a premie would suggest Maharaji's still working on it. Face it, Premie, he won't even talk about it anymore. He won't even admit he once said it. For anyone waiting for him to deliver, that's not a good sign. Now, here's where the idiocy comes in. Premies have mushed out their thing with Maharaji to such an extent that they now claim, like you, that Maharaji's all about one thing -- giving you yourself. Pretty lame, friend. Means nothing, can't be touched. Just a safe, nothing comment. Safe because there's nothing left for Maharaji to ever do, is there? You've slipped out of all expectations but left the shell of trust, trust based on nothing. What would it be like if my friend approached you for a job and you called me for a reference? What if I said that my friend could always be trusted to be himself? Not very impressive, right? Everyone can always be trusted to be themselves. But that's what your false expectations for Maharaji are like. You've got it down to the point where he can do anything, say anything, whatever and you'll keep smiling because, as we know, you expect nothing. He's already given you yourself, what else can you ask for? No expectations, no real trust. Just bullshit. Let me ask you a very basic question: would you lend Maharaji twenty bucks? Not give, lend. If so, why? Because you know he's a man of his word? Give me a break. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 21:56:34 (EST)
Poster: lg Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we 'exs' ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of 'devotion' and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a 'new person' was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Knowledge unfolds the treasures of devotion gradually. If you were interested in another person, would you go over to their house and crawl into bed with them before even talking to them? Of course not. You would approach them very sensitively and respond to signals as they are given. If you DID barge in you'd have NO chance of taking future steps, unless they were the kind you wouldn't want to take steps with. The expressions of devotion evolve naturally as the depth of the relationship grows. Through Knowledge that depth DOES grow, and it becomes a very natural desire to express the love you feel. No-one should feel compelled to take any steps that are not real for them, and from my viewpoint no-one is. I wouldn't crawl into bed with them even after talking to them. Of course not. I wouldn't want to catch AIDS or something like that! You know, people don't walk around with a sign hanging down their neck announcing their disease! Here is what I think of devotion: - Gradually giving my power away to another human being - Being under, A student, Subservient - It means not being responsible for my own life and make my own decision - It means being a puppet at the mercy of (who ever) There's seem to be a conflict here. In one hand, M. gave me myself (the result of letting go a lot of shit when I was practicing) and devotion seem to contradict this. Now, after all the books I've read on the subject, I can say that M. gave me only ONE Truth and that Truth is Myself. My preference is to bow down to my inner self and piss on devotion. It is only one other trick to lure ignorants for his own glory and prestige. THIS MAKES ME MAD!!! lg You cannot be devoted to someone whom you don't trust. If you really trust someone, you are happy to give yourself to them as the trust builds. Maybe someday you can trust someone enough that you can know devotion as something more than a set of empty rituals. It is a wonderful feeling. If Maharaji gave you ONE truth, and that was yourself, why not thank him? That's a pretty big thing to get from someone, don't you think? As for his motives (your inference to 'glory and prestige') you have nothing upon which to base your claim. See Student's response to JW for a good answer to that question. Stay cool lg. Trust? There was no one with more love and trust for M. than I. I had many inner experiences of M. reveling himself to me. I had these experiences because I trusted. I had lots of faith. You know, that without trust there is no experience! Come on! I don't deny anything I have experienced around K. and as M. said once, I have to credit myself for all that. I have worked for that. I earned it. I have found myself and yes It seems big, but it is only the beginning (square one). M. never made it clear what devotion is, and Devotion in my experience is only to the Inner Self. lg Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 22:09:44 (EST)
Poster: lg Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: A Premie and student, but primarily A Premie, have been stating that devotion is the big prize when it comes to knowledge and Maharaji and that, essentially, Maharaji offers a path of devotion to people who want it. I think A Premie described it as the sweetest taste, and a very wonderful experience, adding fulfillment to life. Now, setting aside the issue of whether we 'exs' ever even had the experience of devotion in the first place, or whether we saw what it was (or whom it was directed to) and found it wanting and/or destructive to our lives, I think a question remains as to why interested people aren't told that what they are thinking of getting into is a path of devotion. Also why aren't they told about other things that are directly connected, or symptoms of, devotion? These would include, devotional songs, giving money to Maharaji out of 'devotion' and, particularly, the fact that as recently as last fall, thousands of premies lined up (apparently in shifts) to kiss his feet? I would think this information would give interested people a clue as to what they are considering getting into, and the fact that Maharaji holds darshan lines that thousands participate in, would likely give them some indication of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. If someone with their eyes open wants to get involved with Maharaji and his path of devotion, well they have that right. I just think they should be given full information from the outset. And why aren't they? Mr. Ex tells us, and from what I read in the aspirant document on the site, people are gradually introduced to the concept of devotion. Somewhere down the line. I know that in the past [I was actually introductory program coordinator in a couple of different cities] we did try to hide the darshan and the super-devotional stuff from new people. But the fact was, in those days, the community had satsang every night, and someone could come there, and although premies were told to tone it down if a 'new person' was there, they were likely to hear about some of that stuff just in the course of listening to what premies had to say. But of course, there aren't such programs anymore, and premies are apparently banned from giving satsang, so that avenue isn't as much available. Knowledge unfolds the treasures of devotion gradually. If you were interested in another person, would you go over to their house and crawl into bed with them before even talking to them? Of course not. You would approach them very sensitively and respond to signals as they are given. If you DID barge in you'd have NO chance of taking future steps, unless they were the kind you wouldn't want to take steps with. The expressions of devotion evolve naturally as the depth of the relationship grows. Through Knowledge that depth DOES grow, and it becomes a very natural desire to express the love you feel. No-one should feel compelled to take any steps that are not real for them, and from my viewpoint no-one is. I wouldn't crawl into bed with them even after talking to them. Of course not. I wouldn't want to catch AIDS or something like that! You know, people don't walk around with a sign hanging down their neck announcing their disease! Here is what I think of devotion: - Gradually giving my power away to another human being - Being under, A student, Subservient - It means not being responsible for my own life and make my own decision - It means being a puppet at the mercy of (who ever) There's seem to be a conflict here. In one hand, M. gave me myself (the result of letting go a lot of shit when I was practicing) and devotion seem to contradict this. Now, after all the books I've read on the subject, I can say that M. gave me only ONE Truth and that Truth is Myself. My preference is to bow down to my inner self and piss on devotion. It is only one other trick to lure ignorants for his own glory and prestige. THIS MAKES ME MAD!!! lg You cannot be devoted to someone whom you don't trust. If you really trust someone, you are happy to give yourself to them as the trust builds. Maybe someday you can trust someone enough that you can know devotion as something more than a set of empty rituals. It is a wonderful feeling. If Maharaji gave you ONE truth, and that was yourself, why not thank him? That's a pretty big thing to get from someone, don't you think? As for his motives (your inference to 'glory and prestige') you have nothing upon which to base your claim. See Student's response to JW for a good answer to that question. Stay cool lg. Trust? There was no one with more love and trust for M. than I. I had many inner experiences of M. reveling himself to me. I had these experiences because I trusted. I had a lot of faith. You must know, that without trust there is no experience! I don't deny anything I have experienced around K. and as M. said once, I have to credit myself for those experiences. I have worked for that. I earned it. I have found myself and yes It seems big, but it is only square one. No big deal! M. never made it clear what devotion is, and Devotion in my experience is only to the Inner Self, the only way to grow. lg Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 03:27:35 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: Here! Here! Well said Jim boy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 18:30:34 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Student Discussion Continued Message: I often find it hard to follow threads when then get down below the 50-message mark, so I thought I would bring one up here if anyone would like to continue it. "Student", some others, and I have had some discussions down below, and I'm afraid I found out that "student" does not have the eclectic approach to knowledge and Maharaji that I had hoped student had when I first saw student's posts. Instead, "student" has now stated the following: "I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because in my "blind" devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives." I will have to say that this was pretty much my belief and perspective while I was a premie, for pretty much the entire 10 years I followed him. But maybe student or others can comment on some of the underpinnings of that statement. I just have a few questions. 1. What do you think Maharaji's motives are? 2. Have you ever personally met and talked to Maharaji? How can you know what his motives are, if, like 99% of premies, you have never even spoken to the guy? Does Maharaji know you exist? If so, how? Are his motives always in line with your best interests? 3. Do you think Maharaji has any selfish motives, or are his motives entirely selfless? Is self-preservation and personal enrichment one of his motives? If so, if these conflict with the welfare of his devotees, which one takes priority? If his motives are selfless, why doesn't he live a more middle-class lifestyle and use that money for more selfless purposes, or for things that benefit the devotees directly. Does he think that living like a king benefits the world or his devotees directly? 4 Aren't his motives subject to at least some sekpticism, given that he has an inherent conflict of interest? [I.E. that the more devotees he has the more money he makes, the more he tries to keep them devoted to him the more likely he can keep himself in Rolls Royces, residences and planes, etc, such that he might tend to be unmotivated to encourage any devotee to seek other spiritual paths or masters, and tend, like he does to denigrate religions as the rituals of dead perfect masters.] Or do you think Maharaji is entirely beyond those kinds of personal interests? 5. Assuming Maharaji's motives are entirely trustworthy, does he ever just screw up? Does he make mistakes? If he makes mistakes can that affect the happiness, fulfillment, understanding of the devotees? If he ever does make mistakes has he ever admitted it publicly? Has he ever apoligized for making mistakes? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 19:20:46 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Student Discussion Continued Message: I often find it hard to follow threads when then get down below the 50-message mark, so I thought I would bring one up here if anyone would like to continue it. 'Student', some others, and I have had some discussions down below, and I'm afraid I found out that 'student' does not have the eclectic approach to knowledge and Maharaji that I had hoped student had when I first saw student's posts. Instead, 'student' has now stated the following: 'I see no abuse in any of Maharaji's actions because in my 'blind' devotion, I always have and always will trust Maharaji's motives.' I will have to say that this was pretty much my belief and perspective while I was a premie, for pretty much the entire 10 years I followed him. But maybe student or others can comment on some of the underpinnings of that statement. I just have a few questions. 1. What do you think Maharaji's motives are? 2. Have you ever personally met and talked to Maharaji? How can you know what his motives are, if, like 99% of premies, you have never even spoken to the guy? Does Maharaji know you exist? If so, how? Are his motives always in line with your best interests? 3. Do you think Maharaji has any selfish motives, or are his motives entirely selfless? Is self-preservation and personal enrichment one of his motives? If so, if these conflict with the welfare of his devotees, which one takes priority? If his motives are selfless, why doesn't he live a more middle-class lifestyle and use that money for more selfless purposes, or for things that benefit the devotees directly. Does he think that living like a king benefits the world or his devotees directly? 4 Aren't his motives subject to at least some sekpticism, given that he has an inherent conflict of interest? [I.E. that the more devotees he has the more money he makes, the more he tries to keep them devoted to him the more likely he can keep himself in Rolls Royces, residences and planes, etc, such that he might tend to be unmotivated to encourage any devotee to seek other spiritual paths or masters, and tend, like he does to denigrate religions as the rituals of dead perfect masters.] Or do you think Maharaji is entirely beyond those kinds of personal interests? 5. Assuming Maharaji's motives are entirely trustworthy, does he ever just screw up? Does he make mistakes? If he makes mistakes can that affect the happiness, fulfillment, understanding of the devotees? If he ever does make mistakes has he ever admitted it publicly? Has he ever apoligized for making mistakes? 1. Mentioned below the 50 message line...hard to expound on someone else's motives. The best I can say is: He thoroughly enjoys showing people how to be happy. He loves being loved and appreciated (don't we all?) He is inspired. He loves. 2. No, never spoken to him. I can't know his motives other than to listen and trust the consistency in my experience with him. I tend to my best interests. Maharaji has never hurt me. In this love affair, he has never stopped offering what I get from him. 3. Selfish motives? You mean like enjoying being appreciated? Even Red Cross voluteers and Princess Diana have this characteristic. Self-preservation? You mean financially? He could just relax at home, tour when money gets low, sell tapes, sell Knowledge at $500 bucks a pop and sip cognac. That would conflict with the welfare of premies. He's not a rock star. He doesn't charge concert rates. There's something selfless in maintaining a love relationship with his devotees by coming to see them. Live like a king? Look, you know premies love him, even if you're not sure why. You know that devotion surpasses any other for premies. Is it so hard to understand why I don't want Maharaji to have anything second rate? No compromises. 4. From what I see, religions are the rituals of dead perfect masters. I still enjoy reading the Bible. To me, it's ancient satsang in another context. Maharaji's personal interests? I don't wonder about the personal interests of my karate sensei. He teaches me karate, very well. His interest in me is to learn very well. If I pay him, I don't wonder what he does with it. Got to go until Monday. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 23:21:17 (EST)
Poster: ghj Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Student Discussion Continued Message: I think thats cd Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:33:24 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Quote Re Evolution Message: I came accross the following reference to Dr. Leaky and it stuck me in regard to "evolution," although the here discussion allowed all kinds of liberties to be taken with the term. This quote is from Virginia Morell, author of a Leaky family biography, on Dr. Mrs. Leaky who died in 1996: "She got sick of working on stuff by homo erectus because he kept making the same hand ax for about a million years. She said he must have been a very dimwitted fellow." Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:13:16 (EST)
Poster: jacques Email: To: katie Subject: thanks Message: Dear Katie, I thanks you very much for your answer, which was full of feminin grâce and kindness. See you soon! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 13:53:48 (EST)
Poster: jacques Email: To: student Subject: omnipotence Message: dear student, when my wife was pregnant, I wanted to call my sun to be born , Julien. But what was strange is that few friends that did not knew each other, said to me that I should call this futur boy: Pierre. I resisted to that idea, until a man in the street whom I never spoke in my life, came directly to me and my wife and said, showing the whom of her: " this is a little Pierre in that whom!" So I thaught, that is the will of God, or Guru Maharaj Ji. I had to surrender to that. The thing strange is that, when my child was 2 years old, my mother remain me that she had given that little name(pierre)to my father at the beginning of their relation because she did not like his true name: Camille. I realy believe now, since a lot of experiences like that, that God is aware of everything, and acting through everything, through evey one. Now find yourself with that!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:52:14 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: jacques Subject: Re: omnipotence Message: dear student, when my wife was pregnant, I wanted to call my sun to be born , Julien. But what was strange is that few friends that did not knew each other, said to me that I should call this futur boy: Pierre. I resisted to that idea, until a man in the street whom I never spoke in my life, came directly to me and my wife and said, showing the whom of her: ' this is a little Pierre in that whom!' So I thaught, that is the will of God, or Guru Maharaj Ji. I had to surrender to that. The thing strange is that, when my child was 2 years old, my mother remain me that she had given that little name(pierre)to my father at the beginning of their relation because she did not like his true name: Camille. I realy believe now, since a lot of experiences like that, that God is aware of everything, and acting through everything, through evey one. Now find yourself with that!! Finding myself does not contradict God's omnipotence. I truly feel there is a grand pattern, a divine guide, grace. I wasn't so sure of that a few years ago. Now, when I look back at my life experiences, I don't call myself lucky, more like blessed when I'm listening and responding to "myself." What the "self" means to you is up to you to figure out. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 21:16:10 (EST)
Poster: Doctor Dastardly Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Student Subject: Impotence (Re: omnipotence) Message: Impotence can be cured by blah blah blah scantily clad blah blah blah stockings blah blah blah handcuffs blah blah blah see-through blah blah blah mini-skirt blah blah blah excited blah blah blah tease blah blah blah kelp tablets containing iodene. Sorry about this but since the forum's being reset tomorrow I thought I'd get away with it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:12:14 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Everyone Subject: Symbiosis in Music Production Message: I just realised something. I was listening to "Deep Forest" (a world music band, whose music, I'm afraid, makes most premie CD's sound relatively dry and boring) These guys (French) have built up a relationship with primitive tribal musicians from Papua New Guinea to the South Americas and have used their talents to make fantastic music with beautiful depth and range of human emotion. Musically it is a delightful mix of virtuosity, folk melody and infectious rythm. ie: it draws from an extremely rich pool of human influence (get 'Comparsa' their latest album on Sony) and consequently is better served to fulfill the ultimate role of music, which I propose, is to reflect and amplify emotion within the listener. The composers of this work had a perfect opportunity to capitalistically exploit these innocent and poor people for their own gain; but I gather that they have fully credited them and have collorated with generosity and real respect for their human dignity. Equality in a word. It is nice to see talented and aware people, such as the guys in this band, sharing their work and the rewards with those under-priviledged whom they employ. The end results are beautiful. Of course these people are professionals and have practised long and hard in their art and so they appreciate the value of the work of others all the more. It would be nice if Maharaji could treat those people in his service with the same respect instead ofgetting them to provide their services with little show of appreciation or any real symbiotic involvement. How can he hope to broadcast a message of love to the people of this world through music CD's unless they in themselves are a manifestation of a healthy and truly symbiotic collaboration between himself and artists? From what I gather the musicians are usually encouraged to consider their work service. My feeling is that this is an outdated attitude (a remnant of the misguided ideals of the sixties) which will never yield fruits to any but the guy at the top. It is not working together for peace. Let's not forget in the melee of discussion that goes on here, that within this world (that is often portrayed as a wholly wicked place ) that there are principled people, who in their quest for gain are always wary not to exploit others unfairly, and what is more, who are always eager to share their successes with those who have helped them. That is creativity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:36:57 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Symbiosis in Music Production Message: My memory of following the guru for 10 years is that one of the cornerstones of 'guru logic' is that everything in the world is pointless, meaningless, and of no value unless it is for guru. So what you have described, musicians helping those less fortunate?, would never have been mentioned by him. I don't remember ever hearing him express any interest in helping people in any real tangible way. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 00:00:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Symbiosis in Music Production Message: J?K: Regarding I don't remember ever hearing him express any interest in helping people in any real tangible way. This is really quite sad isn't it? The guy I work with is nearing 80, and is one of the most widely cited political scientists in history. We were coming back from an event in my old 88 Subaru Justy and the damn thing stalled in front of the office building where I was to drop him off. I kept asking him to go on up to the office. He has a heart murmur and I didn't want him to be obligated my the condition of my car. He insisted on helping me push the car up the street and when we got it into a parking place he emptied all his pockets to fill the meter while I called AAA. I was terrified the Post would read the next day "____ died helping an underachieving forty-something-plus get his boat anchor off Fairfax Drive. The point is that whatever this guy's failings (and he has many) he outshines MJ in almost every way. He has more "followers," is more intelligent, has contributed more to human understanding, and has character. Pleas Student, A Premie, Mili, et al... wake up! -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 10:44:55 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Everyone Subject: Premie's post Message: Here is a quote from a premie in one of the threads below that I am seeking clarification on: "As he (GMJ) said in one of the quotes, '...to whom will you give your devotion?'. To your lover? To your cat? I know... to yourself! Or is it to the god within? Come on you logical people with all the answers, just how is it that a human being gets to fulfill their deeper yearning to devote themselves to something worthy of their devotion? Should we all move to Calcutta and administer to the poor? Should we pick a winning football team? I know, we could devote ourself to our dreams! 'I wanna be a fireman when I grow up.' No, more politically correct would be to devote one's self to their children. Too bad Joe, you'd probably miss out on that one. How about something less tangible and more motherhood like... happiness, or goodness, or justice. Now Joe, you might just be a winner there - Jim, you unfortunately miss out on that one. Oh I know the quick and dirty solution just say that's something you don't need." I would like to understand what the premie is saying here. It sounds like first of all the premie is saying that a human being needs to find something to devote itself to and that that something must be worthy of devotion. He then lists some things that we can devote ourselves to. Administering to the poor in Calcutta (that of course is a reference to Mother Theresa), following a football team, having a family, being a fireman, pursuing justice, etc." Premie, this is what I want clarification on: are you saying all of those things are equal to each other and equally meaningful? Mother Teresa was not doing anything different than a crazed football fan? The tone of your post indicates to me that you really don't think these are really activities that will fulfill a human being. So, then, is worshipping guru the only thing a human being can do to truly fulfill itself? Please clarify. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 12:52:39 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: John K. Subject: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: I can't start a new thread, tried 4 times, sdoesn't work ... Some news from Amaroo’s last 3 days conference, for those who didn’t have the chance to go there or to get the tapes! Two very important parts in bold, IMHO : the one on darshan (for those who still claim that knowledge is not a devotional path, and that this Indian ritual is no part of Maharaji’s ‘knowledge’), and the one over his final understanding (I’ve read that in most of the comments on Gita 25 years ago) about Kuruksetra’s fight. Of course those very frightening parts about evil and mind, as usual. M speaks about the ways of teaching in his ‘Instructor’s manual’ : he says there are basically 3 ways to teach, by fear, by rote, or by comprehension. This is of course a very strange way of looking at things, why doesn’t he talk of the teachers qualifications, etc. There is a lot that transpires from a person who views teaching from that perspective. I could never have thought this way. He is definitely using fear, no wonder the consequences. A child can fear his father for so long, but you can’t be surprised of his reactions one day or another. The is more to come : on the 19th , he gave a 1 hour satsang over devotion. I don’t know if I’ll be able to transcribe the whole thing, I’l pick out the most significant parts. And a few other things and gossips. Is there anybody still saying that Maharaji’s knowledge is not ONLY about devotion? After that, and whenever I’ll find some time, I’ll give you the ‘best’ parts of the Long Beach event ..... be patient please, some great stuff to read and think about, in order to gain some wisdom! Today is the first day ..... (ooooooops sorry), I’m going to give you some excerpts of M’s words during the event. Today, some comments on parts of m’s address on September 18, 1997 : First some instrumental music. I don’t remember the title of the original devotional song : Oh Maharaji ...... and I know, you love me too ..... Then a beautiful love song ....... but tell me what can I do, you are the roads that ..... when you shower your love, ...... please let me give myself to you, ......please have mercy, please let me give myself to you, I’ll do just what you want me to, now that I’ve offered you my heart, please have mercy ..... Welcome everyone .... Here we are to maybe just feel, understand about those things that are important to us ...... ups and downs of existence .... simple understanding not necessary to go up and down these waves .... your reality, your truth is above all this ... I’ve been observing .... if god created something simple, human beings immediately make it complicated we don’t know how to welcome simplicity in our lives .... What is the problem? We’ve been given the simplest of existence, ..... life is an automatic process, we have desires to enjoy .... The purpose of existence is not to solve problems .... The nature of a human being has become to forget that which is important to them ... What is true today may not be true tomorrow ... Time by nature is something that changes ..... Anything that the time touches, it changes ... We put our trust in exactly those things .... I’m not the first one to say that’s not how it is ... You have to turn within if you want to look for that, you have to retreat inside if you want that joy, it is possible, but you won’t find it in those things that are incapable to bring that joy ! Those are the people who come to me ... bla bla ..... One of the biggest problems I see with people is that their map of their world is only as big as they think it is ..... ....... what do we use the power to think for ? The silliest things. We try to chart those terrains that cannot be charted .... ...... Be uncertain of uncertainties, that a very good philosophy .... But be certain of those things that are certain .... I know this breath to be certain, I can depend on it ..... this is my encounter of the divine .... This last tour (speaks about it) ..... I have been giving knowledge, so beautiful to watch that process unfold ... K sessions have evolved to quite an art now ..... I’ve given to 15,400 people (this year) .... There is one part of you that can always march in, let’s prove that this is right, let’s go and give an example of Gita, Bible .... I know it works. Why? Because it’s sooooo simple ..... Cause it deals with human beings, with heart ..... ..................... What are people going to think about me .... that’s become such a disease .... ...... the possibility of light exists, you should not chose the darkness. One day I was thinking about that analogy about Gita. So many people have asked me so many questions about Gita .... Here is the peculiar scenario, in my imagination it’s running .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on one side, .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on the other side, you’ve got the good side and you’ve got the bad side And Arjun is going to fight, Krishna is going to drive the chariot, Arjuna is saying ok, let’s go see who I’m gonna kill. And Arjun sees all these people , he likes them, relatives, friends .... and he says to Krishna : mmmm I’m not fighting .... And then all of a sudden in my head something went ‘click’, not literally, and I said oh my god, this is about me, this is about us, this is not so far, and no is it so hard to understand : the 2 sides are drawn out, there is the side which is my heart, there is the side which is my ideas, this is the great war, .... that has been fought again and again and again on the face of this earth, in the life of every living human being. Forget about Kurukshetra where it’s supposed to have happened. This has been fought in America, Australia, New Zealand..... And what is the war. The GREAT war ..... whatever you call it, the good and the bad, or you call it within you the heart and the mind. The heart, and all your ideas, and you, me, I, am Arjun, my master is the Krishna in this one, and he says I’ll drive ..... you’ll have to fight .... Nice touch ! I’m not gonna fight for you, .... but you must fight. Arjun says but I can’t fight this, these ideas and the concepts you’re asking me to fight are the very ones I created, I like them. And Krishna classical answer : don’t worry about killing them, they are dead anyways ! Same part of my clicking in my head is : of course what I think to be true today will not be true tomorrow. Everything changes. Then he elaborates on a flight problem to illustrate his point, some landing procedure that has changed ..... ........................ Things change, everything that I know to be a certain way, will not be that way, and Krishna says go ahead, kill them, don’t be dependent on them. So am I ready to fight ? Or am I the Arjun sitting there, saying I’ don’t know, I’ll wait next life time ‘ .... and then the other side the army amassed .... your decision is there favor, your indecision to them is like cool, another day went buy ....we learn to live with doubts .... that becomes the policy, the heroism, that takes on the guise of clarity, to be able to live with doubts, the ability to survive doubts, and you become a hero ! Can’t be like that ....... This is about clarity, that’s what k is. This is not about hate, this is about love .... The love of clarity I want light in my life ... ................. The amazing thing is, and people miss it, Krishna says : and I come to destroy the evil ! ................ It’s not about the destruction of evil, but it’s about the choice an individual has. There is no shortage of unconsciousness .... but you can decide to be conscious, and then there is no shortage of consciousness. .................. There is no shortage of hate in this world, but if you chose the love, there is no shortage of that love either ..... if you choose the truth ... it is your choice, it is your understanding ! (comments about what’s happening the starting, goes by too fast ...) Beautiful things are planned ..... Take advantage ! see how conscious you can remain. ................ Be in that place .... ................ welcome that clarity in your life, not unconsciousness. Darshan is going to happen ..... it will happen very differently than what you’re used to, it will happen backwards ... no, it will happen over a period of 2 days, and 4 sessions, so that everybody can go comfortably and slowly, not at that 200 miles an hour pace, So it’s been divided into different chunks ...... 1000 people a session, and it’s very simple, and it can be a very beautiful thing, and don’t try to go through again, it’s not fair ..... this is a wonderful opportunity. And of course only those people who really want to go through should go through. This is serious. I was telling one day to someone : to me the 2 most serious things, one is k sessions, and the other one is darshan. And I put them, I put the darshan right after k session. It isn’t for people who think, ‘mmmmm I wonder what it’s like, my mummy told me and I want to know if she was right ....’ Come if you really want to pay that respect, come if you feel that. If you don’t, don’t do it. I don’t watch at a list of people who didn’t come. ................... Come and enjoy. So much has changed here, lot of people have put a lot of effort, and it slowly started to take shape. Here is one of the first proof, ..... the glue hasn’t dried on it yet, but here it is, and also I’m happy to say ...... bla bla .... Take care of yourself ..... Don’t go in the bushes .... ................ In my experience, those people who have k are some of the most beautiful people on, the face of this earth. They really are. ............. There should be a respect, from everybody to everybody. And that can be wonderful. I don’t have to respect people, I really don’t. But I love it. It is my joy to be able to respect other people. ...................... Enjoy this coming together. I don’t have to be reserved .... You’re here, you can be, you can enjoy .... Thank you very much.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 13:36:48 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie's post Message: Here is a quote from a premie in one of the threads below that I am seeking clarification on: 'As he (GMJ) said in one of the quotes, '...to whom will you give your devotion?'. To your lover? To your cat? I know... to yourself! Or is it to the god within? Come on you logical people with all the answers, just how is it that a human being gets to fulfill their deeper yearning to devote themselves to something worthy of their devotion? Should we all move to Calcutta and administer to the poor? Should we pick a winning football team? I know, we could devote ourself to our dreams! 'I wanna be a fireman when I grow up.' No, more politically correct would be to devote one's self to their children. Too bad Joe, you'd probably miss out on that one. How about something less tangible and more motherhood like... happiness, or goodness, or justice. Now Joe, you might just be a winner there - Jim, you unfortunately miss out on that one. Oh I know the quick and dirty solution just say that's something you don't need.' I would like to understand what the premie is saying here. It sounds like first of all the premie is saying that a human being needs to find something to devote itself to and that that something must be worthy of devotion. He then lists some things that we can devote ourselves to. Administering to the poor in Calcutta (that of course is a reference to Mother Theresa), following a football team, having a family, being a fireman, pursuing justice, etc.' Premie, this is what I want clarification on: are you saying all of those things are equal to each other and equally meaningful? Mother Teresa was not doing anything different than a crazed football fan? The tone of your post indicates to me that you really don't think these are really activities that will fulfill a human being. So, then, is worshipping guru the only thing a human being can do to truly fulfill itself? Please clarify. We all seek something worthy of our devotion because I think that is an inherent human need. Point number one. Point number two, the importance of one over another is relative and subjective. You are right in what I think you imply, that from an absolute perspective, there are some pursuits more "worthy", but I'm sure the football hooligan would argue that point if you were to fly Mother Theresa in his face. The questions I ask is: "What in the master design of a human were they meant to devote themself too." Clearly this need MUST be inherent in the design for we have a deep longing to do so - at least most of hte humans I've met. Now, there are some who claim they don't. Then I think there comes into question that person's honesty with themself. The Master teaches a devotion that is totally altruistic, i.e., not self-centered. It is a perfect relationship because in its purest form both Master and Student devote themselves to each other with the same level of altruism. Through this relationship, the Student unites with perfect and infinite love, i.e., THE infinte. Sounds goopy but it is nonetheless true. So unite with your football team or unite with the infinte: that's each individual's choice. How do you say which one is more worthy? Again, that's a subjective eval. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 13:55:20 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: I can't start a new thread, tried 4 times, sdoesn't work ... Some news from Amaroo’s last 3 days conference, for those who didn’t have the chance to go there or to get the tapes! Two very important parts in bold, IMHO : the one on darshan (for those who still claim that knowledge is not a devotional path, and that this Indian ritual is no part of Maharaji’s ‘knowledge’), and the one over his final understanding (I’ve read that in most of the comments on Gita 25 years ago) about Kuruksetra’s fight. Of course those very frightening parts about evil and mind, as usual. M speaks about the ways of teaching in his ‘Instructor’s manual’ : he says there are basically 3 ways to teach, by fear, by rote, or by comprehension. This is of course a very strange way of looking at things, why doesn’t he talk of the teachers qualifications, etc. There is a lot that transpires from a person who views teaching from that perspective. I could never have thought this way. He is definitely using fear, no wonder the consequences. A child can fear his father for so long, but you can’t be surprised of his reactions one day or another. The is more to come : on the 19th , he gave a 1 hour satsang over devotion. I don’t know if I’ll be able to transcribe the whole thing, I’l pick out the most significant parts. And a few other things and gossips. Is there anybody still saying that Maharaji’s knowledge is not ONLY about devotion? After that, and whenever I’ll find some time, I’ll give you the ‘best’ parts of the Long Beach event ..... be patient please, some great stuff to read and think about, in order to gain some wisdom! Today is the first day ..... (ooooooops sorry), I’m going to give you some excerpts of M’s words during the event. Today, some comments on parts of m’s address on September 18, 1997 : First some instrumental music. I don’t remember the title of the original devotional song : Oh Maharaji ...... and I know, you love me too ..... Then a beautiful love song ....... but tell me what can I do, you are the roads that ..... when you shower your love, ...... please let me give myself to you, ......please have mercy, please let me give myself to you, I’ll do just what you want me to, now that I’ve offered you my heart, please have mercy ..... Welcome everyone .... Here we are to maybe just feel, understand about those things that are important to us ...... ups and downs of existence .... simple understanding not necessary to go up and down these waves .... your reality, your truth is above all this ... I’ve been observing .... if god created something simple, human beings immediately make it complicated we don’t know how to welcome simplicity in our lives .... What is the problem? We’ve been given the simplest of existence, ..... life is an automatic process, we have desires to enjoy .... The purpose of existence is not to solve problems .... The nature of a human being has become to forget that which is important to them ... What is true today may not be true tomorrow ... Time by nature is something that changes ..... Anything that the time touches, it changes ... We put our trust in exactly those things .... I’m not the first one to say that’s not how it is ... You have to turn within if you want to look for that, you have to retreat inside if you want that joy, it is possible, but you won’t find it in those things that are incapable to bring that joy ! Those are the people who come to me ... bla bla ..... One of the biggest problems I see with people is that their map of their world is only as big as they think it is ..... ....... what do we use the power to think for ? The silliest things. We try to chart those terrains that cannot be charted .... ...... Be uncertain of uncertainties, that a very good philosophy .... But be certain of those things that are certain .... I know this breath to be certain, I can depend on it ..... this is my encounter of the divine .... This last tour (speaks about it) ..... I have been giving knowledge, so beautiful to watch that process unfold ... K sessions have evolved to quite an art now ..... I’ve given to 15,400 people (this year) .... There is one part of you that can always march in, let’s prove that this is right, let’s go and give an example of Gita, Bible .... I know it works. Why? Because it’s sooooo simple ..... Cause it deals with human beings, with heart ..... ..................... What are people going to think about me .... that’s become such a disease .... ...... the possibility of light exists, you should not chose the darkness. One day I was thinking about that analogy about Gita. So many people have asked me so many questions about Gita .... Here is the peculiar scenario, in my imagination it’s running .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on one side, .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on the other side, you’ve got the good side and you’ve got the bad side And Arjun is going to fight, Krishna is going to drive the chariot, Arjuna is saying ok, let’s go see who I’m gonna kill. And Arjun sees all these people , he likes them, relatives, friends .... and he says to Krishna : mmmm I’m not fighting .... And then all of a sudden in my head something went ‘click’, not literally, and I said oh my god, this is about me, this is about us, this is not so far, and no is it so hard to understand : the 2 sides are drawn out, there is the side which is my heart, there is the side which is my ideas, this is the great war, .... that has been fought again and again and again on the face of this earth, in the life of every living human being. Forget about Kurukshetra where it’s supposed to have happened. This has been fought in America, Australia, New Zealand..... And what is the war. The GREAT war ..... whatever you call it, the good and the bad, or you call it within you the heart and the mind. The heart, and all your ideas, and you, me, I, am Arjun, my master is the Krishna in this one, and he says I’ll drive ..... you’ll have to fight .... Nice touch ! I’m not gonna fight for you, .... but you must fight. Arjun says but I can’t fight this, these ideas and the concepts you’re asking me to fight are the very ones I created, I like them. And Krishna classical answer : don’t worry about killing them, they are dead anyways ! Same part of my clicking in my head is : of course what I think to be true today will not be true tomorrow. Everything changes. Then he elaborates on a flight problem to illustrate his point, some landing procedure that has changed ..... ........................ Things change, everything that I know to be a certain way, will not be that way, and Krishna says go ahead, kill them, don’t be dependent on them. So am I ready to fight ? Or am I the Arjun sitting there, saying I’ don’t know, I’ll wait next life time ‘ .... and then the other side the army amassed .... your decision is there favor, your indecision to them is like cool, another day went buy ....we learn to live with doubts .... that becomes the policy, the heroism, that takes on the guise of clarity, to be able to live with doubts, the ability to survive doubts, and you become a hero ! Can’t be like that ....... This is about clarity, that’s what k is. This is not about hate, this is about love .... The love of clarity I want light in my life ... ................. The amazing thing is, and people miss it, Krishna says : and I come to destroy the evil ! ................ It’s not about the destruction of evil, but it’s about the choice an individual has. There is no shortage of unconsciousness .... but you can decide to be conscious, and then there is no shortage of consciousness. .................. There is no shortage of hate in this world, but if you chose the love, there is no shortage of that love either ..... if you choose the truth ... it is your choice, it is your understanding ! (comments about what’s happening the starting, goes by too fast ...) Beautiful things are planned ..... Take advantage ! see how conscious you can remain. ................ Be in that place .... ................ welcome that clarity in your life, not unconsciousness. Darshan is going to happen ..... it will happen very differently than what you’re used to, it will happen backwards ... no, it will happen over a period of 2 days, and 4 sessions, so that everybody can go comfortably and slowly, not at that 200 miles an hour pace, So it’s been divided into different chunks ...... 1000 people a session, and it’s very simple, and it can be a very beautiful thing, and don’t try to go through again, it’s not fair ..... this is a wonderful opportunity. And of course only those people who really want to go through should go through. This is serious. I was telling one day to someone : to me the 2 most serious things, one is k sessions, and the other one is darshan. And I put them, I put the darshan right after k session. It isn’t for people who think, ‘mmmmm I wonder what it’s like, my mummy told me and I want to know if she was right ....’ Come if you really want to pay that respect, come if you feel that. If you don’t, don’t do it. I don’t watch at a list of people who didn’t come. ................... Come and enjoy. So much has changed here, lot of people have put a lot of effort, and it slowly started to take shape. Here is one of the first proof, ..... the glue hasn’t dried on it yet, but here it is, and also I’m happy to say ...... bla bla .... Take care of yourself ..... Don’t go in the bushes .... ................ In my experience, those people who have k are some of the most beautiful people on, the face of this earth. They really are. ............. There should be a respect, from everybody to everybody. And that can be wonderful. I don’t have to respect people, I really don’t. But I love it. It is my joy to be able to respect other people. ...................... Enjoy this coming together. I don’t have to be reserved .... You’re here, you can be, you can enjoy .... Thank you very much.... Mr. Ex If you're goiong to be the ex-official source of this stuff, at least get it right!! I reviewed my copy of the manual which I received at that meeting and he NEVER (EVER!!!) implied that fear was a viable option of learning. His focus was on having instructors facilitate understanding for the aspirant. Using fear is different than pointing out the pitfalls. If a parent tells their child that if they rob banks they will end up in jail with a big smelly cell mate named Bubba, that is what I'd call pointing out a pitfall. In my experience, the pitfalls M has pointed out have been real and, after I fall into them, painful. I call that guidance, you call it fear mongering. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:54:26 (EST)
Poster: Bubba Email: Perfumed@San Quentin To: A premie Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: I can't start a new thread, tried 4 times, sdoesn't work ... Some news from Amaroo’s last 3 days conference, for those who didn’t have the chance to go there or to get the tapes! Two very important parts in bold, IMHO : the one on darshan (for those who still claim that knowledge is not a devotional path, and that this Indian ritual is no part of Maharaji’s ‘knowledge’), and the one over his final understanding (I’ve read that in most of the comments on Gita 25 years ago) about Kuruksetra’s fight. Of course those very frightening parts about evil and mind, as usual. M speaks about the ways of teaching in his ‘Instructor’s manual’ : he says there are basically 3 ways to teach, by fear, by rote, or by comprehension. This is of course a very strange way of looking at things, why doesn’t he talk of the teachers qualifications, etc. There is a lot that transpires from a person who views teaching from that perspective. I could never have thought this way. He is definitely using fear, no wonder the consequences. A child can fear his father for so long, but you can’t be surprised of his reactions one day or another. The is more to come : on the 19th , he gave a 1 hour satsang over devotion. I don’t know if I’ll be able to transcribe the whole thing, I’l pick out the most significant parts. And a few other things and gossips. Is there anybody still saying that Maharaji’s knowledge is not ONLY about devotion? After that, and whenever I’ll find some time, I’ll give you the ‘best’ parts of the Long Beach event ..... be patient please, some great stuff to read and think about, in order to gain some wisdom! Today is the first day ..... (ooooooops sorry), I’m going to give you some excerpts of M’s words during the event. Today, some comments on parts of m’s address on September 18, 1997 : First some instrumental music. I don’t remember the title of the original devotional song : Oh Maharaji ...... and I know, you love me too ..... Then a beautiful love song ....... but tell me what can I do, you are the roads that ..... when you shower your love, ...... please let me give myself to you, ......please have mercy, please let me give myself to you, I’ll do just what you want me to, now that I’ve offered you my heart, please have mercy ..... Welcome everyone .... Here we are to maybe just feel, understand about those things that are important to us ...... ups and downs of existence .... simple understanding not necessary to go up and down these waves .... your reality, your truth is above all this ... I’ve been observing .... if god created something simple, human beings immediately make it complicated we don’t know how to welcome simplicity in our lives .... What is the problem? We’ve been given the simplest of existence, ..... life is an automatic process, we have desires to enjoy .... The purpose of existence is not to solve problems .... The nature of a human being has become to forget that which is important to them ... What is true today may not be true tomorrow ... Time by nature is something that changes ..... Anything that the time touches, it changes ... We put our trust in exactly those things .... I’m not the first one to say that’s not how it is ... You have to turn within if you want to look for that, you have to retreat inside if you want that joy, it is possible, but you won’t find it in those things that are incapable to bring that joy ! Those are the people who come to me ... bla bla ..... One of the biggest problems I see with people is that their map of their world is only as big as they think it is ..... ....... what do we use the power to think for ? The silliest things. We try to chart those terrains that cannot be charted .... ...... Be uncertain of uncertainties, that a very good philosophy .... But be certain of those things that are certain .... I know this breath to be certain, I can depend on it ..... this is my encounter of the divine .... This last tour (speaks about it) ..... I have been giving knowledge, so beautiful to watch that process unfold ... K sessions have evolved to quite an art now ..... I’ve given to 15,400 people (this year) .... There is one part of you that can always march in, let’s prove that this is right, let’s go and give an example of Gita, Bible .... I know it works. Why? Because it’s sooooo simple ..... Cause it deals with human beings, with heart ..... ..................... What are people going to think about me .... that’s become such a disease .... ...... the possibility of light exists, you should not chose the darkness. One day I was thinking about that analogy about Gita. So many people have asked me so many questions about Gita .... Here is the peculiar scenario, in my imagination it’s running .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on one side, .... you’ve got thousands of soldiers on the other side, you’ve got the good side and you’ve got the bad side And Arjun is going to fight, Krishna is going to drive the chariot, Arjuna is saying ok, let’s go see who I’m gonna kill. And Arjun sees all these people , he likes them, relatives, friends .... and he says to Krishna : mmmm I’m not fighting .... And then all of a sudden in my head something went ‘click’, not literally, and I said oh my god, this is about me, this is about us, this is not so far, and no is it so hard to understand : the 2 sides are drawn out, there is the side which is my heart, there is the side which is my ideas, this is the great war, .... that has been fought again and again and again on the face of this earth, in the life of every living human being. Forget about Kurukshetra where it’s supposed to have happened. This has been fought in America, Australia, New Zealand..... And what is the war. The GREAT war ..... whatever you call it, the good and the bad, or you call it within you the heart and the mind. The heart, and all your ideas, and you, me, I, am Arjun, my master is the Krishna in this one, and he says I’ll drive ..... you’ll have to fight .... Nice touch ! I’m not gonna fight for you, .... but you must fight. Arjun says but I can’t fight this, these ideas and the concepts you’re asking me to fight are the very ones I created, I like them. And Krishna classical answer : don’t worry about killing them, they are dead anyways ! Same part of my clicking in my head is : of course what I think to be true today will not be true tomorrow. Everything changes. Then he elaborates on a flight problem to illustrate his point, some landing procedure that has changed ..... ........................ Things change, everything that I know to be a certain way, will not be that way, and Krishna says go ahead, kill them, don’t be dependent on them. So am I ready to fight ? Or am I the Arjun sitting there, saying I’ don’t know, I’ll wait next life time ‘ .... and then the other side the army amassed .... your decision is there favor, your indecision to them is like cool, another day went buy ....we learn to live with doubts .... that becomes the policy, the heroism, that takes on the guise of clarity, to be able to live with doubts, the ability to survive doubts, and you become a hero ! Can’t be like that ....... This is about clarity, that’s what k is. This is not about hate, this is about love .... The love of clarity I want light in my life ... ................. The amazing thing is, and people miss it, Krishna says : and I come to destroy the evil ! ................ It’s not about the destruction of evil, but it’s about the choice an individual has. There is no shortage of unconsciousness .... but you can decide to be conscious, and then there is no shortage of consciousness. .................. There is no shortage of hate in this world, but if you chose the love, there is no shortage of that love either ..... if you choose the truth ... it is your choice, it is your understanding ! (comments about what’s happening the starting, goes by too fast ...) Beautiful things are planned ..... Take advantage ! see how conscious you can remain. ................ Be in that place .... ................ welcome that clarity in your life, not unconsciousness. Darshan is going to happen ..... it will happen very differently than what you’re used to, it will happen backwards ... no, it will happen over a period of 2 days, and 4 sessions, so that everybody can go comfortably and slowly, not at that 200 miles an hour pace, So it’s been divided into different chunks ...... 1000 people a session, and it’s very simple, and it can be a very beautiful thing, and don’t try to go through again, it’s not fair ..... this is a wonderful opportunity. And of course only those people who really want to go through should go through. This is serious. I was telling one day to someone : to me the 2 most serious things, one is k sessions, and the other one is darshan. And I put them, I put the darshan right after k session. It isn’t for people who think, ‘mmmmm I wonder what it’s like, my mummy told me and I want to know if she was right ....’ Come if you really want to pay that respect, come if you feel that. If you don’t, don’t do it. I don’t watch at a list of people who didn’t come. ................... Come and enjoy. So much has changed here, lot of people have put a lot of effort, and it slowly started to take shape. Here is one of the first proof, ..... the glue hasn’t dried on it yet, but here it is, and also I’m happy to say ...... bla bla .... Take care of yourself ..... Don’t go in the bushes .... ................ In my experience, those people who have k are some of the most beautiful people on, the face of this earth. They really are. ............. There should be a respect, from everybody to everybody. And that can be wonderful. I don’t have to respect people, I really don’t. But I love it. It is my joy to be able to respect other people. ...................... Enjoy this coming together. I don’t have to be reserved .... You’re here, you can be, you can enjoy .... Thank you very much.... Mr. Ex If you're goiong to be the ex-official source of this stuff, at least get it right!! I reviewed my copy of the manual which I received at that meeting and he NEVER (EVER!!!) implied that fear was a viable option of learning. His focus was on having instructors facilitate understanding for the aspirant. Using fear is different than pointing out the pitfalls. If a parent tells their child that if they rob banks they will end up in jail with a big smelly cell mate named Bubba, that is what I'd call pointing out a pitfall. In my experience, the pitfalls M has pointed out have been real and, after I fall into them, painful. I call that guidance, you call it fear mongering. The kid should only be so lucky!I don't smell that bad.You on the other hand reek of an aggressive apologist hired by EV to engage in counter-intelligence here. Get it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:08:57 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Bubba Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: The kid should only be so lucky!I don't smell that bad.You on the other hand reek of an aggressive apologist hired by EV to engage in counter-intelligence here. Get it? Aggressive - yes. Apologist - by who's definition? Hired - no. Counter-intellegence - there's none here to counter. Get it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:49:22 (EST)
Poster: Bubba Email: bliss bliss and more bliss@within inside To: A premie Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: Oh yeah,I got it a long time ago(like everyone else here)-you really get off on pissing in the wind then don't you? 'Try to:Rile 'em,Insult 'em,Excite 'em,Demean 'em.....And then maybe, just maybe I can drag them into my dummy trap.' Your practice has done wonders for you.What a ringing endorsement you are for your master. So;you share your graceful genius with all for free.What a great person you are.Answer me this genius:If people who know nothing of M/K were to read your posts,do you think that they would become interested in learning more,going to an introductory event/program/video? Genius that you are,you probably already know what I think. Keep up the good work A Premie,Lord knows your service is invaluable. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:50:01 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie's post Message: You say: "The Master teaches a devotion that is totally altruistic, i.e., not self-centered. It is a perfect relationship because in its purest form both Master and Student devote themselves to each other with the same level of altruism. Through this relationship, the Student unites with perfect and infinite love, i.e., THE infinte. Sounds goopy but it is nonetheless true." Yes, you are right when you say you sound goopy. The fact is that relationship you describe already exists. It already existed in me before i met gmj and it has existed since I renounced following gmj. I do have a relationship with my creator and it has nothing to do with gmj. Hell, GMJ would not even pay my dental bill when I was in his ashram, so your pretty words about the master's pure devotion to the student sound really....well, goopy! By the way, why in the world don't you identify yourself? You certainly sound like you've got God on your side, what is there to fear? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 16:08:25 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie's post Message: You say: 'The Master teaches a devotion that is totally altruistic, i.e., not self-centered. It is a perfect relationship because in its purest form both Master and Student devote themselves to each other with the same level of altruism. Through this relationship, the Student unites with perfect and infinite love, i.e., THE infinte. Sounds goopy but it is nonetheless true.' Yes, you are right when you say you sound goopy. The fact is that relationship you describe already exists. It already existed in me before i met gmj and it has existed since I renounced following gmj. I do have a relationship with my creator and it has nothing to do with gmj. Hell, GMJ would not even pay my dental bill when I was in his ashram, so your pretty words about the master's pure devotion to the student sound really....well, goopy! By the way, why in the world don't you identify yourself? You certainly sound like you've got God on your side, what is there to fear? Well done then John. You must be one of the more advanced human beings I've encountered. Most don't have a clue where to start. If you were to be honest though, you probably should give SOME credit to Maharaji. You probably did a certain amount of cut and paste to come up with your own theories. Re; dental bill: Come on John, get real! You know as well as I do that ALL your needs re; life and limb were covered by within the ashram strycture. He didn't sign the check but he made sure there was someone there do do so. The words sound goopy 'cause they've been so overused. That doesn't make them any less real. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 16:13:30 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Bubba Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: Oh yeah,I got it a long time ago(like everyone else here)-you really get off on pissing in the wind then don't you? 'Try to:Rile 'em,Insult 'em,Excite 'em,Demean 'em.....And then maybe, just maybe I can drag them into my dummy trap.' Your practice has done wonders for you.What a ringing endorsement you are for your master. So;you share your graceful genius with all for free.What a great person you are.Answer me this genius:If people who know nothing of M/K were to read your posts,do you think that they would become interested in learning more,going to an introductory event/program/video? Genius that you are,you probably already know what I think. Keep up the good work A Premie,Lord knows your service is invaluable. Calm down Bubba. My goal is not to piss you off. It's to counter idiocy, unfounded speculation, rewriting of history, malicious rhetoric, and the spreading of untruths. If you're pissed, it could be you I'm talking to. What do you care about endorsing Maharaji and Knowledge? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 16:53:55 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Premie's post Message: Not sure what you mean by cut and paste theories, but it sounds like you're putting down my belief in God. Can't imagine why you would do that though, oh unless maybe it's because I don't believe your guru is god. Re: master not paying student's dental bill in ashram. Yes, I told the story here before, don't have time to re-tell it, it's not all that interesting anyway, but I lived in the ashram at 57?? Alton Lane in Miami beach less than a mile from the holy residence. Now obviously, I have no way of proving all this, and they don't keep records of this kind of corrupt behavior, but that ashram was run by a real bona fide ass hole, and he did not pay dental bills. At least he did not pay mine. Now, who cares, it's 16 years later. But the point is "The Master" did not have a clue as to what was happening less than a mile from his own house to "The Students" who were trying to dedicate their lives to him. So, really who needs a "Master" such as this? Not me! What ashram were you living in anyway? Or were you/are you an initiator? As I remember initiators rec'd much nicer treatment than ashram residents. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:25:02 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Premie's post Message: Not sure what you mean by cut and paste theories, but it sounds like you're putting down my belief in God. Can't imagine why you would do that though, oh unless maybe it's because I don't believe your guru is god. Re: master not paying student's dental bill in ashram. Yes, I told the story here before, don't have time to re-tell it, it's not all that interesting anyway, but I lived in the ashram at 57?? Alton Lane in Miami beach less than a mile from the holy residence. Now obviously, I have no way of proving all this, and they don't keep records of this kind of corrupt behavior, but that ashram was run by a real bona fide ass hole, and he did not pay dental bills. At least he did not pay mine. Now, who cares, it's 16 years later. But the point is 'The Master' did not have a clue as to what was happening less than a mile from his own house to 'The Students' who were trying to dedicate their lives to him. So, really who needs a 'Master' such as this? Not me! What ashram were you living in anyway? Or were you/are you an initiator? As I remember initiators rec'd much nicer treatment than ashram residents. I'm not putting down your belief in God at all. I'm saying that Maharaji has probably influenced your thinking on the subject more than you probably care to admit. At least acknowledge that if it is so. Your story about the dental work was an anomoly, and is unfortunate. I think M would have been pissed to hear about it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 22:47:00 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Bubba Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: >The kid should only be so lucky!I don't smell that bad.You on the other hand reek of an aggressive apologist hired by EV to engage in counter-intelligence here. Get it? You're not Bubba. That is for certain. Your a pseudo-intellectual type. Probably never been in jail. Get what? You're just on a cheap smear campaign. 'A premie' was simply pointing out that from his/her perspective M has offered useful guidance. I agree with that viewpoint. Get it booboo? 'A premie' was engaging in intelligence. Not 'counter-intelligence'. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 22:53:04 (EST)
Poster: X Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: >My goal is not to piss you off. It's to counter idiocy, unfounded speculation, rewriting of history, malicious rhetoric, and the spreading of untruths. Sounds good! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 23:30:02 (EST)
Poster: Bubba Email: 28yearsofperfectjoy@I'montheplane.com To: A premie Subject: Re: Great stuff on recent Darshan (Re: Premie's post) Message: Oh yeah,I got it a long time ago(like everyone else here)-you really get off on pissing in the wind then don't you? 'Try to:Rile 'em,Insult 'em,Excite 'em,Demean 'em.....And then maybe, just maybe I can drag them into my dummy trap.' Your practice has done wonders for you.What a ringing endorsement you are for your master. So;you share your graceful genius with all for free.What a great person you are.Answer me this genius:If people who know nothing of M/K were to read your posts,do you think that they would become interested in learning more,going to an introductory event/program/video? Genius that you are,you probably already know what I think. Keep up the good work A Premie,Lord knows your service is invaluable. Calm down Bubba. My goal is not to piss you off. It's to counter idiocy, unfounded speculation, rewriting of history, malicious rhetoric, and the spreading of untruths. If you're pissed, it could be you I'm talking to. What do you care about endorsing Maharaji and Knowledge? What do I care?Well maybe,just maybe,I'm a 28 years long premie who cares not about the site here,but believes that what is written by other premies here is what in the end will have the most impact on those who know little of Guruji.''By their fruits you shall know them.'' Maybe I've read all your posts and am most unimpressed with the way you bait and insult people.Maybe I find it hideous behavior from a premie and feel bad for my master as a result. Maybe I think you oughta go away and let grace do its job. And then again,maybe there are other reasons why I care. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 23:44:13 (EST)
Poster: friday night Email: To: CD Subject: fights (Re: Premie's post) Message: Ah the beauty and wisdom of zealotry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 05:20:06 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: A premie Subject: Maharaji uses FEAR in teaching (Re: Premie's post) Message: It looks like you're so furious that you can't read what I wrote. I said that even though maharaji says 'rote' is not a good method, this is exactly what he does! repeating and convincing people that mind is evil and telling them they'll have to fight an endless war against mind, that they'll endure that fight between their brain and their heart for all their life is called: teaching by ROTE IMHO Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 06:37:20 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex, sorry goofed again Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Maharaji uses FEAR & ROTE! (Re: Premie's post) Message: It looks like you're so furious that you can't read what I wrote. I said that even though maharaji says 'rote' is not a good method, this is exactly what he does! repeating and convincing people that mind is evil and telling them they'll have to fight an endless war against mind, that they'll endure that fight between their brain and their heart for all their life is called: teaching by ROTE and FEAR IMHO Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 01:56:37 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Everyone Subject: Where are all those Indian Premies? Message: I know India is an economically poor country, overall. But some of those premies must own a computer with a modem. Where are they? What kind of questions would we ask them? Hey, Indians...we would like to hear from some of you. Come on back. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:39:48 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Where are all those Indian Premies? Message: On browsing the web over the last year or so I have found loads of Indian sites, Indian forums and newsgroups. There's plenty of Indians on the net. Perhaps the faithful Indian premies have been given agya my Maharaji not to post or have a presence on the net. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 12:41:29 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Premies from India (Re: Where are all those Indian Premies? ) Message: When I lived in DC I used to go with other premies and visit premies who lived by themselves 'away' from the premie community. One premie couple we would visit and spend the weekend with was an Indian couple in Delaware. Oh man, could she (the wife) cook! She would spend the entire time in the kitchen cooking. He (the husband) would spend the whole time with us in the living room having satsang. It was great. We would not have to lift a finger. The woman was expected to take care of everything... and the food she prepared...it was just terrific. It does simplify life when the woman knows her true place (hey, JUST kidding). I was so struck by how different their culture was. We were not expected to interact or communicate in any way with the wife. She simply was there to serve us and not to interact with us as equals. One premie sister I would go there with used to comment on this fact. We both had no idea how to relate to this woman, and we both felt bad about the fact that she was not allowed to participate. But then again maybe she was bored to tears by all our talk about the guru anyway. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:57:14 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Everyone Subject: Utopia Message: Will's last post to me referred to the Buddhist idea of shunning all desires to avoid pain. The only comfort would be in finding Nirvana. I don't know much about that religion, except that I had to read Siddhartha in high school. I do know that several religions encourage severing all worldly ties in favor of spiritual salvation. I can understand the benefits of such a choice. There you are, a hermit, with no desire for anything more than the simplest necessities, no desire for companionship, only merging with the infinite and pitying the rest of us. It is fulfilling to never desire any more than you have, think about it. However, avoiding the cycle of life and death (in the sense of worldly attachments or relationships) in order to avoid pain is not for me. I do not see futility or misery in the cycle of life and death no more than I see futility in sweeping a floor. It's just going to get dirty again, but I like seeing it clean periodically. I see futility and misery in people's eyes. I want to accept cycles, maybe even see beauty in them. Cycles are how nature works, everything changes. Weather cycles (El Nino), geological cycles (plate tectonics, earthquakes), these are necessary, yet people want to freak out when scientists say...things are changing. Cycles force us to adapt and make us stronger. Sometimes I feel like this outlook is too optimistic to share when I'm comforting a miserable friend or relative. Who wants to hear: "Just accept the beautiful cycle of life and death and learn from this difficult time." We're human. Changes hurt. If there are some extreme changes in the next few years, as many believe, the only people who will survive with any sanity intact will be the ones anchored in something unchanging and positive, something that cannot be taken away, even with the loss of wealth, familiar structure, or loved ones. For me, that is Knowledge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 19:09:49 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Utopia Message: Student: Regarding - I want to accept cycles, maybe even see beauty in them. Cycles are how nature works, everything changes. Weather cycles (El Nino), geological cycles (plate tectonics, earthquakes), these are necessary, yet people want to freak out when scientists say...things are changing. Cycles force us to adapt and make us stronger. Don't forget BI-cycles. There is an important lesson in how you feel "down there" after riding 100 miles, or in racing a butterfly up a steep hill on one of those contraptions. Speed is a relative thing. The story is that Einstein conceived the theory of relativity while imagining the motion of two bicycles. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:14:59 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:41:41 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Student Subject: Dear Student (Re: Utopia) Message: Dear 'Student'. (Scott is being silly - take no notice...) I like your posts. Maybe it is because you are a second generation premie, or something, but you seem to THINK a lot (not allowed in my day), and have an objective approach to life in general - a kind of 'let's test things out a little, then arrive at conclusions. My only concern is that when you use 'Knowledge' as a yardstick for measuring your experiences, I feel you may have already unwittingly abandoned your objectivity. I don't mean this in the sense that your inner experience is not genuine; rather that that experience has been presented to you with a rich metaphorical superstructure that involves terms like 'going within','connecting to the source','discovering Maharaji inside', 'setting out on that journey' etc. I daresay the vocabulary has changed since my time, but that is neither here nor there. Have you noticed that premies never talk about the beauty of the experience that may be had from 'placing thumb and forefinger on eyelids, with first finger on the centre of the forehead', or of 'tucking the tongue up into the nasal passage' or whatever. I know there is a difference between what you actually DO, and what you might FEEL as a result, and I am not confusing the techniques with the experience. All I am suggesting is that, however precious you own inner experience may be, don't you ever wonder whether it might be the same as experiences of, say, the Krishna Temple, practioners of TM, Yogis, Zen Buddists, Sufis, or even Benedictine monks? Most of the (non western) world's religions have a strong emphasis on 'contemplative' practices. What do you suppose keeps each of those devotees hanging on in there? I am amazed now that throughout my premie years I was so confident in my beliefs when I claimed that whatever members of those other religions/cults were experiencing, it was certainly not 'the real thing'. If you are genuinely open-minded, please do not accept the link between M and K as a given fact. Also, each of these organisations has its own metaphorical language for what the experience is all about, and who the ultimate provider of that experience might be. For my own part, I am now a convinced atheist, and have been for ten years, but can still experience precious feelings of well-being inside, whether or not I use 'M's' techniques in the right order, the wrong order, not in any order, nobody in particular's techniques, my own techniques that I have just made up, etc. I even have my own metaphorical language for what is going on, and it is all to do with the brain relaxing its control systems over what is 'self' and 'non-self' (and I don't want to bore anybody with the details here). And Ok, It is most probably a crap theory, but I am sure that if I had enough personal charisma and was in the right place at the time, I could probably start a pretty efficient cult based around those inner experiences and my dubious explanation for them. (I have just been reading LR Hubbard's 'Dianetics', and, dear God, if he can start a major new world religion, ie. Scientology, based upon such a load of unmitigated twaddle, I am sure anybody can. It is not as if he even looked cute). Anyway, 'Leave plenty of room for doubt in your mind'. Best wishes Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:43:56 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Student Subject: Re: Utopia Message: I wouldn't take all that Hindu and Buddist stuff about cycles as gospel truth. Indeed, the true picture as I and other people have seen it, the overview if you like, is that we choose to take on human lives in order that we can progress and learn more. The Buddist philosophy that all material life is suffering, therefore we must vacate it as soon as possible, is very shortsighted and far from the truth. To give an analogy: suppose you go on a business course to learn something and then about one third the way through the course you decide it's a waste of time and try to leave the course. That would be a waste of enroling on the course. The Hindus and Buddists say that the aim of life is to leave the course. How silly when we have voluntarilly come onto this course to learn something. We are supposed to be here and thinking otherwise is negative. I personally think the whole of the Hindu/Buddist philosophy is far from the truth of the matter. It completely is divorced from the one truth that is eternal, i.e. that God loves us. It also fails to reveal the actual reality of the situation, that we are co-creators with God. The expression, "Dust at his feet" is rubbish. To God we are extremely important. Each of us is the apple of His eye and He wants us to know this. He doesn't see us as inferiors but wants us to grow just like He has grown. He has the greatest love and respect for each of us and wants to take us all on a journey of discovery that has no end. That is His love, greater than we could at present imagine. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:55:32 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Hey Jim, you and me! We could do the 'Nice cop, Nasty cop' thing... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:41:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Dear Jim - There IS a third option to your either/or - maybe she just doesn't want to talk to you. That is her right, I think. There's certain people on here that I don't want to talk to either (not you, though). Respectfully yours, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:01:22 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Katie, I don't agree with you in the least. I don't agree with coddling avoidance especially in people who freely pontificate about their 'evolving' openness and what-have- you. If you don't see that as irritatingly hypocritical, you amaze me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:25:36 (EST)
Poster: British Email: ** To: Nigel Subject: Invasion (Re: Utopia) Message: Guess I can relax knowing there are so many good posters like yourself around here. Being so recent I can run hot. Time to submerge and do some of the other related work. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:28:54 (EST)
Poster: Sir Email: ** To: David Subject: David (Re: Utopia) Message: Another excellent British offering from our very own Knighted One. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 01:14:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Katie, I don't agree with you in the least. I don't agree with coddling avoidance especially in people who freely pontificate about their 'evolving' openness and what-have- you. If you don't see that as irritatingly hypocritical, you amaze me. Dear Jim - With all due respect: when you deal with premies, particularly with the quote interpretations, it sometimes seems like you are not really interested in what the other person has to say, but just want to prove a point. Some people deal well with this kind of approach, and some people don't. I personally don't, and I feel some sympathy for other people who don't. By the way, I know that we don't agree about this issue, but this shouldn't surprise (or amaze) you after the number of times we've argued about it! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:18:12 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Dear Student (Re: Utopia) Message: Dear 'Student'. (Scott is being silly - take no notice...) I like your posts. Maybe it is because you are a second generation premie, or something, but you seem to THINK a lot (not allowed in my day), and have an objective approach to life in general - a kind of 'let's test things out a little, then arrive at conclusions. My only concern is that when you use 'Knowledge' as a yardstick for measuring your experiences, I feel you may have already unwittingly abandoned your objectivity. I don't mean this in the sense that your inner experience is not genuine; rather that that experience has been presented to you with a rich metaphorical superstructure that involves terms like 'going within','connecting to the source','discovering Maharaji inside', 'setting out on that journey' etc. I daresay the vocabulary has changed since my time, but that is neither here nor there. Have you noticed that premies never talk about the beauty of the experience that may be had from 'placing thumb and forefinger on eyelids, with first finger on the centre of the forehead', or of 'tucking the tongue up into the nasal passage' or whatever. I know there is a difference between what you actually DO, and what you might FEEL as a result, and I am not confusing the techniques with the experience. All I am suggesting is that, however precious you own inner experience may be, don't you ever wonder whether it might be the same as experiences of, say, the Krishna Temple, practioners of TM, Yogis, Zen Buddists, Sufis, or even Benedictine monks? Most of the (non western) world's religions have a strong emphasis on 'contemplative' practices. What do you suppose keeps each of those devotees hanging on in there? I am amazed now that throughout my premie years I was so confident in my beliefs when I claimed that whatever members of those other religions/cults were experiencing, it was certainly not 'the real thing'. If you are genuinely open-minded, please do not accept the link between M and K as a given fact. Also, each of these organisations has its own metaphorical language for what the experience is all about, and who the ultimate provider of that experience might be. For my own part, I am now a convinced atheist, and have been for ten years, but can still experience precious feelings of well-being inside, whether or not I use 'M's' techniques in the right order, the wrong order, not in any order, nobody in particular's techniques, my own techniques that I have just made up, etc. I even have my own metaphorical language for what is going on, and it is all to do with the brain relaxing its control systems over what is 'self' and 'non-self' (and I don't want to bore anybody with the details here). And Ok, It is most probably a crap theory, but I am sure that if I had enough personal charisma and was in the right place at the time, I could probably start a pretty efficient cult based around those inner experiences and my dubious explanation for them. (I have just been reading LR Hubbard's 'Dianetics', and, dear God, if he can start a major new world religion, ie. Scientology, based upon such a load of unmitigated twaddle, I am sure anybody can. It is not as if he even looked cute). Anyway, 'Leave plenty of room for doubt in your mind'. Best wishes Nigel: Being silly, indeed! How could you think that? I'm very serious about bicycling, especially the pain that goes with it. Have spent enormous sums on various seat experiments. But seriously, What is the essence of a faith? I met Madelaine Murray a number of years ago, and would say that she had both charisma and faith. It takes more faith to be an atheist, especially if you know there's something going on inside that isn't ealisy explained by physical theories? This is notwithstanding the comparison between Knowledge and masterbation, that to me is like comparing Everest with Old Rag Mountain (Katie knows what I mean). Of course, as you know, I think believing in a physical universe takes even more faith that being an atheist. There is simply no convincing evidence for it, not unless you severely change what is conventionally and intuitively meant by the term "physical." One might arrive, eventually, at something that decribes reality by simultaneously revising what we mean by "physical," "meta-physical," and "God." (By the way, I don't think there is ultimately an "energetic" explanation of the Knowledge experience, but part of that conviction comes from "the evidence of things not seen.") -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 09:46:42 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Katie, Of course I'm trying to prove a point. What's wrong with that? It doesn't follow in the least that that means I'm 'not interested in what the other person has to say.' To the contrary, it makes me exceedingly interested. No one 'deals well with this approach' IF they're trying to defend the indefensible. On the other hand, people who are truly open-minded, when cornered thusly, often do something incredibly bizarre, like admit they're wrong. At a minimum, if they're honest, they'll admit they're stuck. You seem to like to protect premies from this thought process. To each their own. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 12:20:21 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Dear Student (Re: Utopia) Message: Dear 'Student'. (Scott is being silly - take no notice...) I like your posts. Maybe it is because you are a second generation premie, or something, but you seem to THINK a lot (not allowed in my day), and have an objective approach to life in general - a kind of 'let's test things out a little, then arrive at conclusions. My only concern is that when you use 'Knowledge' as a yardstick for measuring your experiences, I feel you may have already unwittingly abandoned your objectivity. I don't mean this in the sense that your inner experience is not genuine; rather that that experience has been presented to you with a rich metaphorical superstructure that involves terms like 'going within','connecting to the source','discovering Maharaji inside', 'setting out on that journey' etc. I daresay the vocabulary has changed since my time, but that is neither here nor there. Have you noticed that premies never talk about the beauty of the experience that may be had from 'placing thumb and forefinger on eyelids, with first finger on the centre of the forehead', or of 'tucking the tongue up into the nasal passage' or whatever. I know there is a difference between what you actually DO, and what you might FEEL as a result, and I am not confusing the techniques with the experience. All I am suggesting is that, however precious you own inner experience may be, don't you ever wonder whether it might be the same as experiences of, say, the Krishna Temple, practioners of TM, Yogis, Zen Buddists, Sufis, or even Benedictine monks? Most of the (non western) world's religions have a strong emphasis on 'contemplative' practices. What do you suppose keeps each of those devotees hanging on in there? I am amazed now that throughout my premie years I was so confident in my beliefs when I claimed that whatever members of those other religions/cults were experiencing, it was certainly not 'the real thing'. If you are genuinely open-minded, please do not accept the link between M and K as a given fact. Also, each of these organisations has its own metaphorical language for what the experience is all about, and who the ultimate provider of that experience might be. For my own part, I am now a convinced atheist, and have been for ten years, but can still experience precious feelings of well-being inside, whether or not I use 'M's' techniques in the right order, the wrong order, not in any order, nobody in particular's techniques, my own techniques that I have just made up, etc. I even have my own metaphorical language for what is going on, and it is all to do with the brain relaxing its control systems over what is 'self' and 'non-self' (and I don't want to bore anybody with the details here). And Ok, It is most probably a crap theory, but I am sure that if I had enough personal charisma and was in the right place at the time, I could probably start a pretty efficient cult based around those inner experiences and my dubious explanation for them. (I have just been reading LR Hubbard's 'Dianetics', and, dear God, if he can start a major new world religion, ie. Scientology, based upon such a load of unmitigated twaddle, I am sure anybody can. It is not as if he even looked cute). Anyway, 'Leave plenty of room for doubt in your mind'. Best wishes I will only address your references to other religions. I trust that there have been many masters. I will not debate the "qualifications" for master. Any devotee of a true living master has had the same opportunity that I have now. Once the master dies, a religion is born around dogma and concepts. That is stagnant. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 12:27:35 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: David Subject: Re: Utopia Message: I wouldn't take all that Hindu and Buddist stuff about cycles as gospel truth. Indeed, the true picture as I and other people have seen it, the overview if you like, is that we choose to take on human lives in order that we can progress and learn more. The Buddist philosophy that all material life is suffering, therefore we must vacate it as soon as possible, is very shortsighted and far from the truth. To give an analogy: suppose you go on a business course to learn something and then about one third the way through the course you decide it's a waste of time and try to leave the course. That would be a waste of enroling on the course. The Hindus and Buddists say that the aim of life is to leave the course. How silly when we have voluntarilly come onto this course to learn something. We are supposed to be here and thinking otherwise is negative. I personally think the whole of the Hindu/Buddist philosophy is far from the truth of the matter. It completely is divorced from the one truth that is eternal, i.e. that God loves us. It also fails to reveal the actual reality of the situation, that we are co-creators with God. The expression, 'Dust at his feet' is rubbish. To God we are extremely important. Each of us is the apple of His eye and He wants us to know this. He doesn't see us as inferiors but wants us to grow just like He has grown. He has the greatest love and respect for each of us and wants to take us all on a journey of discovery that has no end. That is His love, greater than we could at present imagine. Beautiful. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 12:28:45 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Did I miss something? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 13:53:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Student Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Did I miss something? You missed Jim mindfucking himself. Trust me, you didn't miss anything at all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:25:08 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Katie, I don't agree with you in the least. I don't agree with coddling avoidance especially in people who freely pontificate about their 'evolving' openness and what-have- you. If you don't see that as irritatingly hypocritical, you amaze me. Jim Who the fuck are you to demand an answer when you give none yourself (I refer to the many I've asked you). If one doesn't want to answer a question, that's their perogative (that perogative applies to you too). And please don't give your lame, goading response that if one doesn't respond it means they are defensive, or covering up, or not up to an open discussion. Most every post of yours reeks of abuse and arrogance, so why would anyone bend over backwards to oblige you with anything? Sorry pal, those are the unspoken rules of social interaction. After all, this IS a social setting (albeit cyber) and not a cross-examination or inquisition. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:58:35 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Student Subject: Re: Utopia Message: Beautiful because God is beautiful. It took me many years of searching before I was shown the true picture. I don't want to denigrate Hindu/Buddist philosophy but I'm afraid they have missed an essential ingredient. That ingredient is that a child of God is eternal, just like its Father. In the Hindu philosophy they say that God creates souls and puts them through lifetimes of suffering until they realise Him and then they disappear back into Him as if they never existed. That is the Hindu myth. The myth that since we are born from God we have only a limited existence until we dissolve back into God. WHat I and others have realised is that the opposite is true. We are and always will be merged with God. And yet we are created as an eternal being, and eternal soul which will in time grow to be like its Father. And that is just the beginning of a never ending story because as we grow, so does God. He will always be greater than us and yet we will always grow to be more like Him. There's plenty of time. The growth is the comprehension of love. That is how I would put it in my words. To comprehend and realise the love that we are and to be free to create out of that love. That is the point. This world can seem a pretty dark place at times. What better place for us to comprehend love and create from that love. Those musicians mentioned in the thread above are doing that. Steven Hawking has been hanging on to his body against all medical opinion for over twenty years. He realises he has a purpose. We all have. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:36:33 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: David Subject: Re: Utopia Message: My favorite lines of yours, David, are "He will always be greater than us and yet we will always grow to be more like Him...The growth is the comprehension of love." I'm off to read that other thread now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:49:34 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Mili Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: Student, Your insights are invaluable, I'm sure. But, please, are you planning to simply post your religious pamphlets and avoid all discussion? If not, would you please answer me below. Either that, or admit that you're not quite up to discussing Maharaji. Did I miss something? You missed Jim mindfucking himself. Trust me, you didn't miss anything at all. Mili, Was it you who tried to shut down alt.cult.maharaji? What's up with that? Rick Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:57:40 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Hey, dude, you didn't answer my question! (Re: Utopia) Message: The only thing I recall you asking me which I never replied to was whether I ever had gay fantasies? Sorry fella, this is a Maharaji-related site. If you can show me the relevance of your question, I'll consider answering it. Until then I'll continue to assume you were just being an idot and ignore the question. Fair? I think so. Now my questions are a little different. I'm simply asking you how you can explain away Maharaji's own words. The words mattered because fools like me heard them and trusted the speaker knew what he said and followed him accordingly. So, unless you can give me some good reason for not responding I'll just comfortably assume that you, like all other Maharaji apologists, are completely unable to deal with the facts. Fair? I thought so. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 23:07:47 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's video business Message: I'm in the video business myself so I know a little about costs of production and duplication. Although I can only relate to British Pounds you can transfer the figures over to Dollars. I read a few months ago that Maharaji produced at least one new title every month for sale worldwide. Now supposing that just 10,000 people buy a copy of each video priced at 20 Dollars. That computes at about 15 pounds each, retail price. Cost of blank tapes is about 80 UK pence maximum, perhaps 90 pence including purchase tax. These would be high grade tapes although I expect Maharaji duplicates onto cheaper quality tapes. Cost of video sleeve would be no more than 20 pence. The duplication of the videos might be done as service by premies so it would be free. If video duplication was done by a professional duplicating house the cost of duplication of such large quantities would be about 60-70 pence each. Shipping costs would push the cost up by about 5 pence each. Anyway we can safely say that each 15 pounds video is costing less than 2 pounds to duplicate and ship. Video production and editing costs will be almost free because of the voluntary service element. So we can safely assume that each video is netting around 12 pounds (or more) profit for Maharaji. Selling at least 10,000 copies per month would make a profit of around 120,000 pounds per month or 1.4 miliion pounds per annum. Now that's not bad for a video business with just the same one person on each and every video produced. Of course, he may be selling a lot more than 10k copies per month. 20k sold per month would net him nearly 3 million pounds per annum. His one advantage over other video businesses is that his distribution costs are low due to most of his workers working for nothing. The person selling the video at the program is not being paid for doing it. Does Maharaji pay tax on this video business? Considering the Indian premies and the hard sell to buy all the videos the Lord appears in, the true sales figures for videos could be very much higher than my very conservative estimate. Maharaji's video business is truly a multi million pound concern. A nice little earner. Oh I almost forgot. The rehashing of old footage into compilation videos is the standard practise to squeeze the maximum amount of profit from video film. I believe Maharaji does compilations of old satsangs etc. That is one of the tricks of the trade. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 05:46:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: David Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: >I read a few months ago that Maharaji produced at least >one new title every month for sale worldwide. That was a wrong information. Visions (EV Inc) produces/distributes an average of 12 to 15 new videos a month. It’s been like this for more than 3 years. >Now supposing that just 10,000 people buy a copy of each >video priced at 20 Dollars. Difficult to know how many they sell. That’s not their only source of income as you’ll see. Now you have to understand they make money in different ways and how their system works. EV pays a production company (Dunrite prod) to produce these videos (filming, editing). Dunrite has at least 5 full-time employees, and pays them salaries. EV (is it really owned by EV, or by Mr Rawat?) has it’s own duplication facility in US, in UK, in India and some other countries (South America, Spain, etc). It is very possible that these duplication companies are OWNED by Mr Rawat. That should be investigated. EV (Visions) pays Dunrite and these duplication companies for their work, and owns the copyrights. Now Visions duplicates videos for US and sends Betacam masters to every other place for duplication. India edits its own videos (Indian style, and duplicates) for Indian speaking countries/communities. These masters are sold or ‘rented’, depending on the places, and Visions/EV Inc gets copyright fees from all the countries outside US. Visions gets an average of 10 US$ copyright per sold tape + screening copyrights on each title. Those screening copyrights vary from place to place, according to the audience. I would say that places (western countries) are charged about ½ US$ per person watching videos. Make your own calculations. 4000 people watching videos in the US 4000 x 0.5$ x 12videos x 12months = 288,000 US$ / year for screening copyrights only US being ½ of total income, means 576,000 US$ / year for screening copyrights only Plus 10 $ / sold video ...... They don’t sell that many, I would say an average of 1,000 tapes/month = 12,000 tapes sold/year = 120,000 US$ /year 576,000 + 120,000 = about 700,000 $ / year This does not include publications, audio tapes and CDs. Lets say 1,000,000 per year copyrights and commissions on sales altogether. Dunrite, Visions etc pay approx 10 salaries, lets say 400,000 / year. 600,000 left to Visions to pay for overhead expenses etc, I would say it’s a minor income source for Mr Rawat (he can’t get any money directly from EV anyway), not to neglect, specially if he owns these duplication and editing companies (very likely), I can’t imagine BigM relying on anybody beside Himself. >These would be high grade tapes although I expect Maharaji >duplicates onto cheaper quality tapes. They have to use high quality tapes, because of the quality needed for projections. They even use S-VHS in many places. >His one advantage over other video businesses is that his >distribution costs are low due to most of his workers working >for nothing. The person selling the video at the program is not >being paid for doing it. This is true. Except for Visions, EV has no employee in any other country. Even in UK, the guy does it almost full-time, not being paid! >Does Maharaji pay tax on this video business? BigM is not supposed to get anything from this, as EV Inc is charitable-non profit! No VAT. The profits come from Dunrite, duplication companies, Wahadamar, etc very likely. >Considering the Indian premies and the hard sell to buy all the videos the Lord >appears in, the true sales figures for videos could be very much higher than my very >conservative estimate. Difficult to know about India. They might not have that many VCR. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 07:33:59 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: Thanks for that Mr Ex. Maharaji has certainly got his sales and distribution set up very well but he's definitely falling short on the marketing side. I think his obsession for secrecy and keeping things under cover is the reason why he doesn't market the videos in a big way. Someone has a sense of humour though. To call the production and editing company "Dunrite" made me laugh. I would imagine that Maharaji would own the duplication companies. Such a company is easy to set up and the equipment required would merely be a Betamax player and a load of VHS machines copying via a distibution amplifier. I could be done in someone's spare room or a small industrial unit. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:41:59 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: David Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: Isn't the 10,000 sold per month kind of high? I can't believe there are 10,000 premies in the world ordering these videos. I thought the communities ordered the videos, and I would be surprised if there were more than a thousand communities in the world ordering these videos. However, now that i think about it, I can easily believe there are 10,000 premies willing to donate $20 a month to M. and get nothing in return. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:31:56 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: John K. Subject: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: You're perfectly right John! >Thanks for that Mr Ex. Maharaji has certainly got his sales > and distribution set up very well but he's definitely falling >short on the marketing side. BTW: I think Visions makes about 50% of its sales during big conventions, like Long Beach birthday, etc. To tell the ‘truth’, I think premies get fed up of all these videos. They come to watch videos because they’re hooked to it. Their ‘experience’ relies so much on BigM’s words and contemplation ..... and all the smiles they get from their friends after or before. The warmth of the hall. They sometimes buy one tape because there is something they liked, or to give it to a friend (propagation), not so much these days anyway. Of course the videos black-market is quite consistent. BigM is very repetitive. It’s very common that he gives almost the same discourse with the same examples and the same jokes during a serie of events. It gets very boring. Fidel Castro is much better: 7 hours & 15 minutes! Without interruption. At least BigM has coffee and lunch pause during conventions. That’s why I don’t like communists, no sense of humor. There is definitely no point in buying the same thing several time. The premies are quite aware of this I guess. They are crazy of those videos where he dances, or sometimes when he says incredible things related to devotion. Regarding marketing, you have to be very inventive. Monika Lewis has been in charge of this for a while (still now?). Inventions and ideas are suppressed in EV’s organization. Premies should be autonomous to manage the business. How could they be? Beside this: The profit of video sales is not big anyway. Premies will easily donate 1,000 $, they won’t buy 200 tapes! David Smith, Yorum Weisz and other instructors raise millions. If understand this I think you’ve understood everything. What he craves for is devotion. And devotees GIVE. He is not into a sales business: he wants GIFTS and SLAVES to manage and operate his own businesses. >I think his obsession for secrecy and keeping things under cover is >the reason why he doesn't market the videos in a big way. He doesn’t sell much because there is NO wisdom in his discourses. He doesn’t help anybody, and he never did, meditation wise. Premies get ‘inspiration’ ...... that’s all. And then they’re stuck in meditation and fall asleep. His purpose is definitely not to teach meditation either. He is far from those gurus of Radhasoami and Surat Shabd. At least these guys help their followers regarding meditation. Some even dare printing and publishing their techniques. I’ve practiced meditation with other (real?) gurus in the past: they spend hours and hours on the practice, practicing with you, explaining what you feel, what are the obstacles, helping you to go beyond. BigM never had any chance to learn this. How could he teach what he doesn’t know? He teaches some kind of Indian home made philosophy, mixed with ideas of his own, that’s it. I understand some people can find it helpful for a while. Regarding his obsession for secrecy, the reason is blatant: he is an autocrat. He doesn’t want to discuss anything with anybody, except with his friends maybe. If he says stupid things or if they don’t agree, of course they can’t argue with the Perfect Master. They accept this as part of their relationship with him. For how long can you endure that type of relationship? What does it show of these guys personalities? How do you think these guys behave with other premies? It’s a chain reaction, and his organizations will always be doomed. No wonder some people (like me) get mad after some time. He is not really behaving like a regular human being. How could he show this? He also has a lot to hide of course, regarding his private life/friendships (perfectly understandable), and the various businesses linked to EV. As he is not that dumb, he learns from his mistakes. And he uses very skilled people as his assistants. They don’t last very long for most of them. Compared to many other cults, he is not very successful. I would suggest him to get his ego trip together, and really behave like he did in the past, wearing his Krishna outfit, premies will adore this. There are plenty of people ready to believe in him ...... >Someone has a sense of humour though. To call the production >and editing company 'Dunrite' made me laugh. * M’s find I heard. >I would imagine that Maharaji would own the duplication companies. >Such a company >is easy to set up and the equipment required would merely be a Betamax >player and a load of VHS machines copying via a distribution amplifier. >I could be done in someone's spare room or a small industrial unit. That’s extremely likely. No salaries given. He’s using EV’s facilities for this. Blissful slaves. Blissful boss. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 13:48:15 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: EV (Visions) pays Dunrite and these duplication companies for their work, and owns the copyrights. Now Visions duplicates videos for US and sends Betacam masters to every other place for duplication. India edits its own videos (Indian style, and duplicates) for Indian speaking countries/communities. These masters are sold or ‘rented’, depending on the places, and Visions/EV Inc gets copyright fees from all the countries outside US. Visions gets an average of 10 US$ copyright per sold tape + screening copyrights on each title. Those screening copyrights vary from place to place, according to the audience. I would say that places (western countries) are charged about ½ US$ per person watching videos. Make your own calculations. 4000 people watching videos in the US 4000 x 0.5$ x 12videos x 12months = 288,000 US$ / year for screening copyrights only US being ½ of total income, means 576,000 US$ / year for screening copyrights only Plus 10 $ / sold video ...... They don’t sell that many, I would say an average of 1,000 tapes/month = 12,000 tapes sold/year = 120,000 US$ /year 576,000 + 120,000 = about 700,000 $ / year BigM is not supposed to get anything from this, as EV Inc is charitable-non profit! No VAT. The profits come from Dunrite, duplication companies, Wahadamar, etc very likely. Mr. Ex, are you saying that copyright/royalties are collected by EV for every premie (or anyone else) who goes to watch a video in his or her community? I think you said about $.50 each. And this would be in addition to the community actually buying the video in the first place, and in addition to premies buying them individually? What a racket. Are you saying M can't get ANY money from EV for this? What about copyright/royalties paid to M as the "performer" on the tapes, and/or being paid a salary by EV? Now, I know, as it was with DLM that money likely flows from EV to M directly. Those kind of legal obstacles never stopped him in the past. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 14:51:04 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: If you are suggesting that everyone is charged .50 per viewing, when I went to see a video last year, I was not charged anything, and I did not see any money being collected. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 16:58:18 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: If you are suggesting that everyone is charged .50 per viewing, when I went to see a video last year, I was not charged anything, and I did not see any money being collected. I'm not sure what Mr. Ex meant, but I think he said royalties of .50 per viewer were collected from the community, not that people were charged at the door or anything like that. But I'm still waiting clarification. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 17:24:24 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: You're perfectly right John! >Thanks for that Mr Ex. Maharaji has certainly got his sales > and distribution set up very well but he's definitely falling >short on the marketing side. BTW: I think Visions makes about 50% of its sales during big conventions, like Long Beach birthday, etc. To tell the ‘truth’, I think premies get fed up of all these videos. They come to watch videos because they’re hooked to it. Their ‘experience’ relies so much on BigM’s words and contemplation ..... and all the smiles they get from their friends after or before. The warmth of the hall. They sometimes buy one tape because there is something they liked, or to give it to a friend (propagation), not so much these days anyway. Of course the videos black-market is quite consistent. BigM is very repetitive. It’s very common that he gives almost the same discourse with the same examples and the same jokes during a serie of events. It gets very boring. Fidel Castro is much better: 7 hours & 15 minutes! Without interruption. At least BigM has coffee and lunch pause during conventions. That’s why I don’t like communists, no sense of humor. There is definitely no point in buying the same thing several time. The premies are quite aware of this I guess. They are crazy of those videos where he dances, or sometimes when he says incredible things related to devotion. Regarding marketing, you have to be very inventive. Monika Lewis has been in charge of this for a while (still now?). Inventions and ideas are suppressed in EV’s organization. Premies should be autonomous to manage the business. How could they be? Beside this: The profit of video sales is not big anyway. Premies will easily donate 1,000 $, they won’t buy 200 tapes! David Smith, Yorum Weisz and other instructors raise millions. If understand this I think you’ve understood everything. What he craves for is devotion. And devotees GIVE. He is not into a sales business: he wants GIFTS and SLAVES to manage and operate his own businesses. >I think his obsession for secrecy and keeping things under cover is >the reason why he doesn't market the videos in a big way. He doesn’t sell much because there is NO wisdom in his discourses. He doesn’t help anybody, and he never did, meditation wise. Premies get ‘inspiration’ ...... that’s all. And then they’re stuck in meditation and fall asleep. His purpose is definitely not to teach meditation either. He is far from those gurus of Radhasoami and Surat Shabd. At least these guys help their followers regarding meditation. Some even dare printing and publishing their techniques. I’ve practiced meditation with other (real?) gurus in the past: they spend hours and hours on the practice, practicing with you, explaining what you feel, what are the obstacles, helping you to go beyond. BigM never had any chance to learn this. How could he teach what he doesn’t know? He teaches some kind of Indian home made philosophy, mixed with ideas of his own, that’s it. I understand some people can find it helpful for a while. Regarding his obsession for secrecy, the reason is blatant: he is an autocrat. He doesn’t want to discuss anything with anybody, except with his friends maybe. If he says stupid things or if they don’t agree, of course they can’t argue with the Perfect Master. They accept this as part of their relationship with him. For how long can you endure that type of relationship? What does it show of these guys personalities? How do you think these guys behave with other premies? It’s a chain reaction, and his organizations will always be doomed. No wonder some people (like me) get mad after some time. He is not really behaving like a regular human being. How could he show this? He also has a lot to hide of course, regarding his private life/friendships (perfectly understandable), and the various businesses linked to EV. As he is not that dumb, he learns from his mistakes. And he uses very skilled people as his assistants. They don’t last very long for most of them. Compared to many other cults, he is not very successful. I would suggest him to get his ego trip together, and really behave like he did in the past, wearing his Krishna outfit, premies will adore this. There are plenty of people ready to believe in him ...... >Someone has a sense of humour though. To call the production >and editing company 'Dunrite' made me laugh. * M’s find I heard. >I would imagine that Maharaji would own the duplication companies. >Such a company >is easy to set up and the equipment required would merely be a Betamax >player and a load of VHS machines copying via a distribution amplifier. >I could be done in someone's spare room or a small industrial unit. That’s extremely likely. No salaries given. He’s using EV’s facilities for this. Blissful slaves. Blissful boss. Mr. Ex, you have a very jilted perspective. Most of the spin you put out is of course from the perspective of someone LOOKING for reasons to negate the work M is doing. Whatever the reason your nose is out of joint, that's your thing. I do want to take issue with your comment about him never having helped anyone in meditation. Where were you hiding when he had the many practice sessions to review the techniques. Maybe you fell asleep and missed the whole thing. They were an incredible help for many people. Did he have to do it? Oh, I know, it was just a secret ploy to raise more money, right? Careful you don't let your negative state of mind around M COMPLETELY slant your view of reality/history like most others who contribute to this forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 18:07:59 (EST)
Poster: jacques Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of " a fantastic experience" which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 19:09:34 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: jacques Subject: Re: to Jacques (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Jacques, Hold onto to yourself right now. The things that you are not proud of in yourself are not all there is to you. Forgive yourself, everybody feels like they are lost sometimes. When you read or hear other people talk about their enlightenment, remember, they are just people like you. They are no better than you, they may not be richer than you, they may not have learned as much as you have learned. They just feel safer. Do not think "I am a good person," or "I am a bad person." You are a person, and you deserve to be happy. That is the most important. You want to be happy. That is you. You have learned from your past. That is you. You are alive. Look for happiness. Don't worry about how much happier another person sounds. They may be lying to impress you. The universe is not keeping secrets from you. You are alive. Don't be scared of doing the wrong thing. Don't be scared of what people say when they get angry. They are blind when they are angry. You are blind when you are scared. Keep looking. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:09:33 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: jacques Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Jacques I think it's honorable that you want to know about yourself on a deep level. What you ARE is certainly worth finding out about. My experience is that self-knowledge is not 'a fantastic experience' in a WOW kind of way, but it is in a simple and serene kind of way. If one can be still, that serenity comes through. It is sweet yet subtle, and meant to be felt, not thought about. Knowledge is a set of tools to help you still the noise. Trust in the one who gave you the tools - they work. And trust in the omnipotence of the power of life inside you, i.e., that you are meant to find what you are looking for, if you want it. Bonne chance! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:13:39 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: jacques Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Growth of any kind cannot be forced but comes naturally over time. Where to begin? Thinking about meditation achieves nothing. If you want to meditate try doing no more than 15 minutes. If you're doing Maharaji's meditation that would equate to 5 minutes on each technique. Try doing this and in time you will find you will feel relaxed about it and will want to meditate for longer. Understand the needs of other people that you know. Help them and care about them and don't worry about yourself because you will realise that you're just fine as you are. Nobody is enlightened. Only God is enlightened. We are all in the same boat brother and we can help each other. In helping each other, we help ourselves. Saint Paul said it a long time ago - "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends". Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:33:12 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: David Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Growth of any kind cannot be forced but comes naturally over time. Where to begin? Thinking about meditation achieves nothing. If you want to meditate try doing no more than 15 minutes. If you're doing Maharaji's meditation that would equate to 5 minutes on each technique. Try doing this and in time you will find you will feel relaxed about it and will want to meditate for longer. Understand the needs of other people that you know. Help them and care about them and don't worry about yourself because you will realise that you're just fine as you are. Nobody is enlightened. Only God is enlightened. We are all in the same boat brother and we can help each other. In helping each other, we help ourselves. Saint Paul said it a long time ago - 'Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends'. My experience is that 5 minutes on each technique is almost useless. My suggestion is to follow the guidance of the person who gave the techniques. He DOES understand how they work (more than I think you do Dave). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 20:57:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A premie Subject: Premie: That's just what I told Dave Weiner (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Premie, What a nostalgic moment for me. For so long now I've told people about the kind of lame-assed advice I gave my buddy Dave when he was riddled with doubt about Maharaji. But really, what I said wasn't too different than what you yourself here told Jacques -- don't worry, meditate! Tell me, Premie, how you know you're not 'supposed' to think about Knowledge? Will it make it disappear like Tinkerbell? Fall through the curtain like the Wizard of Oz? And besides, aren't you thinking and talking about it even now? Bonne chance, yourself, Premie-Ji! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:04:33 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: A premie Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Yes but since it's a personal experience, I know better than anyone, how they work for me. Let me ask you a question. Of all the people who receive the Knowledge from Maharaji, how many still practise it years later? 1%? 2%? I doubt if it's even a quarter of one percent. The meditation techniques are not Maharaji's invention but have been lifted from an ancient Hindu tradition. They are nothing new. Maharaji doesn't understand western people. He is too insulated to really understand ordinary people. Ordinary people are not going to sit down and struggle through an hour of meditation when they are having no experience. Well perhaps they will try it a few times and then give up. There are many masters who teach some or all of these techniques. They all say, start with a little bit of meditation and grow into it. My experience has been that 20 minutes meditation is far from useless. Your experience is different but that's just you isn't it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:05:56 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Premie: That's just what I told Dave Weiner (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Premie, What a nostalgic moment for me. For so long now I've told people about the kind of lame-assed advice I gave my buddy Dave when he was riddled with doubt about Maharaji. But really, what I said wasn't too different than what you yourself here told Jacques -- don't worry, meditate! Tell me, Premie, how you know you're not 'supposed' to think about Knowledge? Will it make it disappear like Tinkerbell? Fall through the curtain like the Wizard of Oz? And besides, aren't you thinking and talking about it even now? Bonne chance, yourself, Premie-Ji! 'Cause I know Jim-ji - you FEEL it, you don't think about it. That's how it works! What are you trying to do, challenge what may be a cornerstone of a man's life that may be the only thing holding him up? Can we blame you in all your arrogant glory for the next suicide we hear about? If you gave your buddy some lame-assed advice, why the fuck don't you take blame for his suicide? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:10:42 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: David Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Yes but since it's a personal experience, I know better than anyone, how they work for me. Let me ask you a question. Of all the people who receive the Knowledge from Maharaji, how many still practise it years later? 1%? 2%? I doubt if it's even a quarter of one percent. The meditation techniques are not Maharaji's invention but have been lifted from an ancient Hindu tradition. They are nothing new. Maharaji doesn't understand western people. He is too insulated to really understand ordinary people. Ordinary people are not going to sit down and struggle through an hour of meditation when they are having no experience. Well perhaps they will try it a few times and then give up. There are many masters who teach some or all of these techniques. They all say, start with a little bit of meditation and grow into it. My experience has been that 20 minutes meditation is far from useless. Your experience is different but that's just you isn't it. You're right, that's just me - for what it's worth. David, I challenge the stats you come up with, and ask why you (and others) care so much about them. Do you need the approval of others to make you feel you're doing the right thing? Are you a lemming? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 21:57:25 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: A premie Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: You missed my point. I don't need approval from others. Your previous comment that Maharaji should know better than me about how to practise the techniques, meant nothing to me. I don't believe he does know better than me how to practise them. You see I no longer see him as a master. Just someone who is posing as a master. The point of mentioning statistics regarding how few people who received the knowledge continue to practise it, is this; Maharaji's knowledge as he prescribes it, is impossible for most people to practise. So what happens is that they do not practise it. That's fairly logical isn't it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 22:59:30 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: jacques Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Or, as Charnanandji was supposed to have said, "Sometimes we try too hard and three hard." Slogans sound like so much bullshit until the day comes -- and it does, for everyone -- when it is so awful, even well-worn slogans seem to have an appeal, so long as they're spoken by someone with a friendly eye and voice. If you're really lucky, they mean it, too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:02:29 (EST)
Poster: The Email: To: Student Subject: Hydra (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Just when Hercules thought things were going to quite down the dang thing grew another head or two. And after the magazine article---who knows? Many! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:09:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jacques Subject: Re: to Jacques (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Dear Jacques - I think what "Student" said to you was very wise. I also think that both the premies and ex-premies here would agree that it seems like you are trying too hard and are putting yourself under too much pressure. No wonder you are suffering. I don't think or feel that fighting against yourself is necessary to experience what you want to experience. It's important to accept all parts of yourself - good AND bad - before you can change anything. It worries me when you say that you are taking risks and thinking that Guru Maharaji will protect you. I am not sure what kind of risks you are talking about - maybe you are not doing anything dangerous. But I don't think anyone, including Maharaji, wants you to take risks to prove your devotion. And I also think that it's not necessary to renounce and give up so many things that it makes you unhappy. I think it's possible to be yourself AND also have a "fantastic experience". But, to me, it's more important to be myself first. Take care of yourself, Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:31:46 (EST)
Poster: Will Email: ** To: jacques Subject: To Jaques (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Exactly right Jacques. The whole idea that we have to attain something is a wrong and damaging misperception of life. It is not your fault that you have this wrong idea. It was given to us by someone who claimed that that was the thing we were supposed to do. In this life you have been given your body and time and many varied pleasures and adventures to have. The creative power made this place for you to enjoy and the message jesus had to give was that you cannot earn the favor of the god by your great attempts to climb an invisible mountain. The gift of life is a gift. And your creator is happy with you as you are so all you have to do is enjoy yourself and try and recognise all the beauty and opportunity in your life for you to explore and enjoy without any obligation other than to try to love. Try to love god, yourself, and others. THAT is the only request being made to you. All of the people on this forum can sypathize with you because we also have been poisoned by the eastern style thinking that maharaji and other groups like him give out. They would have us believe that we have to try to attain some 'place' that they themselves have not attained. They foolishly think that there is no god and you are supposed to just go inside and claim the 'experience'. (I don't suppose student is understanding this.) The worst thing of all is that maharaji when he was little was raised to be the lord but even though he is still trying to play god, after all these years we are seeing more and more that he is definately not. He is a regular person and by him pretending to be something he is not he unfairly manipulates us and gives us bad advice that he himself cannot do. Your only hope is to try to see for yourself that yes there is a god but you have been unfairly led by someone who was raised from a young age in the hindu guru tradition and many people who have been around him up close have seen that he is a very troubled person and even his own mother tried to save him and us by going public with the news that her own dear son was confused and he was not the lord. Of course all of us here at this web site thought we knew better than his own mom. For her effort to save him he banished her from his life and would not see her for 18 years till she finally died. He had a mid life crisis in the nineties and had self doubt and instead of being able to face the truth that he needed to turn to god and ask for help, he instead turned to the guru tradition even more and again he wants us to worship him and kiss his feet and pretend he is the lord. You found this web site, that is the mercy of god. Try to stay and have a look. We understand and are here to help others like ourselves. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:42:17 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Will Subject: Re: To Jaques (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Dear Jacques as Will stated above about Gods mercy , it worked for me ,see my post below (re:zzzzzz) for it was this forum that woke me up from my sleep.{NOT quite the effect as the ex's would have intended) Students reply to you was some what right on. Be at peace with yourself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:47:51 (EST)
Poster: Jesus premie, what kind Email: ** To: A premie Subject: of friend are you? (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Christ premie, What kind of help is that? You are a fraud. You really think that you have found ANYTHING inside? Trust in the one who gave you the tools? prem rawat did not give you anything. Your mother gave you life and god gave you breath. prem rawat is not god! Fine is you want keep up a fantasy but don't throw a man a falsehood and spout false pretenses and imply that all he has to do is make MORE effort to reach what he already has all around him. It's the most evil of all the devil's tricks to make someone distracted from thier life and thier god and point them to a false path to god and a false idol to worship and sing to and listen too and to kiss the feet of the false god. Amazing! maharaji is NOT your friend. I absolutely refuse to sit back and watch him do this to more and more people. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 26, 1998 at 23:56:53 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: To: Jesus premie, what kind Subject: Re: of friend are you? (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: To quote you in part as above "Its the most evil of all the devil's tricks to make someone distracted from their god and point them to a false path" NO TRUER WORD A SPOKEN, so why is it you Don't practice what you preach? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:05:20 (EST)
Poster: Will Email: ** To: A premie Subject: To the great apologist (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Hello again O great savior. Did it ever occur to you that you are alive CONSTANTLY? You are always looking out your eyes and your life breath is there and all your body parts. God or life is 100% already completely everywhere around you. So YOU say 15 minutes is correct. Good grief man listen to yourself. It's not your fault, but comon, get with it. Wake up to the living creative power that is all around you and set yourself free of the foolish eastern thinking that tries to say---somewhere else-----. Be honest. You have seen nothing inside on the back of your eyelids that tops looking at a tree or anything else. The real god gave you eyes to see and you refuse to take it as the real gift. THAT is the insidious evil of the whole meditation world. Do you know the origin of that kind of thinking on earth? It's quite a unrespectable story. I will tell you the parts I have found out so far if you want. It is really just evil that maharaji pretends to be lord. I mean he KNOWS he isn't. He is just doing the hindu guru thing and we all got suckered in big time. You could say he was somewhat innocent at first but he has long since realized he isn't the lord and he has admitted that he cannot accept the knowledge into his own life. He doesn't know why but the reason is is that he doesn't believe in god! And that is just for starters. You think there is no god? Do you think that god is all thrilled with this whole performance of his? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:12:27 (EST)
Poster: Under Email: ** To: Diver Dan Subject: Sky to underwater Dan (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: I know you are saying something, but what? practice what you preach? explain if you will. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 00:30:19 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Under Subject: Re: Sky to underwater Dan (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: I know you are saying something, but what? practice what you preach? explain if you will. Sheer profoundity! Right on ! Any other response would have amazed me! Even "I" give you more credit then that! But hey I'm easily impressed. I see by your style in your multiple identities of your different posts that you still can"t stick with one name (not that "NAME" ) The posting identity kind (didn't you once promise me you would Id your posts with a* maybe a case of mistaken identity?Hard to tell with no name to represent your convictions as to what you say! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 01:53:52 (EST)
Poster: Danny Email: bb To: Diver Dan Subject: Boy (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Hi Danny Boy, I didn't do the * thing because, well, the first time I fergot, and then I just figured you were not a real character but a 'fun' posting as we definately get sometimes. I had to go to the dictionary for the second tome today for that profundity word. The same reason I bailed out on that * character is the same reason I am tempted to bail out on stu, and premie and jaques. It just bothers me to much. The others here can take it in stride and be casual and hip. I get lava. Is that Jaques character one of yours? If so you are not so bad at this multiple identity thing yourself. Maybe you would like to take Anonomousie around the block for a spin? She only has one more post lined up but it's so lengthy I keep not getting around to it. It's the wedding post. I can't decide the title, either; Maid in the Shade. or Zero Proof Moonshine. So she is yours. Go ahead, turn her into a devotee. Let her suffer. Even that thresa nun couldn't escape herself, we were mean't to be stuck! No need to escape and demean life and the family and ignore the DNA, oops, I mean ...again that name issue, oh yeah, Mr. Amazing! Hello again Amazing one! Would you fix my wife by the way? I tried the christian believe method and the use will power with the breath method and I don't got it. I know your busy, which brings up a question I had yesterday, how DO you manage this whole deal? I don't wan't to know about armies of angels or other staffing you might have, I can't handle a crowded image. The idea of Micheal Landon coordinating a squad of divine do-gooders in my sector is too much for me to handle. I did notice the ah, TEST sign the other night in case you didn't know. How do you do that? There are so many of us. I guess it's just in your capacity and that's that. Air is so soft. I love to drink it. 15 minutes, sheesh that's so nut's. Your creative world is just too much. This place is stuffed with features. Family is just the greatest. Even the damn cat is a trip. Why does some strange man wan't to distract me from the omnidirectional, 100% saturated, wonderland of life. And somehow you are as there as I am. Awash in your presence I move. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:18:08 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Growth of any kind cannot be forced but comes naturally over time. Where to begin? Thinking about meditation achieves nothing. If you want to meditate try doing no more than 15 minutes. If you're doing Maharaji's meditation that would equate to 5 minutes on each technique. Try doing this and in time you will find you will feel relaxed about it and will want to meditate for longer. Understand the needs of other people that you know. Help them and care about them and don't worry about yourself because you will realise that you're just fine as you are. Nobody is enlightened. Only God is enlightened. We are all in the same boat brother and we can help each other. In helping each other, we help ourselves. Saint Paul said it a long time ago - 'Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends'. My experience is that 5 minutes on each technique is almost useless. My suggestion is to follow the guidance of the person who gave the techniques. He DOES understand how they work (more than I think you do Dave). Hi And I say that he DOESN'T understand how the techniques work. I was a premie for 23 years, practicing every day etc etc... t is your OPINION that he knows how they work, as it is my OPINION that he doesn't know how the work. What on earth gives you the right to assume that Dave knows anything less than you? Yours reminds me of the usual premie arrogance when it comes to Big M. Actually, you probobly know less about Big M, than you think. ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:35:50 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Jacques I think it's honorable that you want to know about yourself on a deep level. What you ARE is certainly worth finding out about. My experience is that self-knowledge is not 'a fantastic experience' in a WOW kind of way, but it is in a simple and serene kind of way. If one can be still, that serenity comes through. It is sweet yet subtle, and meant to be felt, not thought about. Knowledge is a set of tools to help you still the noise. Trust in the one who gave you the tools - they work. And trust in the omnipotence of the power of life inside you, i.e., that you are meant to find what you are looking for, if you want it. Bonne chance! Hi You said "trust in the one who gave you the tools - they work". As far as I'm concerned, "the tools" are, and always have been public domain - GM nicked them in the early 70's as part of his marketing plan for the west. Anyhow, a guy called Mahatma Gyanyoganand Ji gave me the tools, not GM. He was more of a teacher to me than GM ever has been. I wonder where Gyanand is now? I find it dificult to trust in Gyanand as I haven't seen him for 25 years. To trust in the one who gave you the techniques is surely placing that person on the 'Divine' pedastal. Why should anyone trust him if he is not in the god zone? You probobly think that he is 'divine', please correct me if i'm mistaken. If you do not think that he is 'divine' then how on earth can you trust him, for surely then he is just another human struggling through? Please tell me (if you wish), do you think he is 'divine' or not? It is one or the other, no grey areas. all the best, ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:55:52 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: JW Subject: Business answer to JW & John K (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: >JW >Mr. Ex, are you saying that copyright/royalties are collected > by EV for every premie (or anyone else) who goes to watch >a video in his or her community? I think you said about $.50 each. >And this would be in addition to the community actually buying >the video in the first place, and in addition to premies buying them >individually? What a racket. Racket from your side, not for Visions! They’ll tell you they have huge costs producing these videos (obviously, they do have huge expenses). $.50 (to $1 or more maybe in many places) is not in addition to the price the ‘community’ is paying for the video. The price the videos are ‘sold’ to communities is calculated (they might say ‘estimated’ whatever, as much as you can ‘give’) on average attendance. Anyway, regarding their balance, they are in huge debts from what I’ve heard. For some places like where you live, the video is ‘sold’ to the community, for other places the video is ‘rented’, for some other places EV invoices ‘royalties fees’, etc, whatever. >Are you saying M can't get ANY money from EV for this? From what I’ve ‘officially’ heard in EV, Mr Rawat is NOT supposed to get ANYTHING (copyrights or any material/financial favor) from EV BECAUSE EV is a registered charity non-profit organization. These guys might be lying, I don’t know. JW, did you receive more information about EV’s present legal status? >What about >copyright/royalties paid to M as the 'performer' on the tapes, and/or >being paid a salary by EV? Did you ever hear this in EV? Mr Rawat being paid by EV? Is he? EV is supposed to be ‘promoting’ Mr Rawat’s teaching, not giving him salary or any favor. >Now, I know, as it was with DLM that money >likely flows from EV to M directly. Those kind of legal obstacles never >stopped him in the past. I think they don’t either now. He’s just using illegal channels, behind some companies ‘paid’ by EV. Lame protection that might not resist a serious audit. >John K >If you are suggesting that everyone is charged .50 per viewing, >when I went to see a video last year, I was not charged anything, >and I did not see any money being collected. Nobody has ever been ‘charged’ anything. Remember, k and practice are free. ‘Communities’, countries are charged, and then your local guys call you for a ‘participation’ meeting and tell you about the ‘needs’, those invoices from Visions, the G4’s refueling, etc people needed to ‘help’ at the ‘residences’, bla bla >JW >I'm not sure what Mr. Ex meant, but I think he said royalties of .50 >per viewer were collected from the community, not that people were >charged at the door or anything like that. But >I'm still waiting clarification. Did I make myself clear now? Sorry for this confusion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 06:28:19 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: jacques Subject: Hi Jacques V (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: >from Jacques volckman Delabesse >I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing >the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability >concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression >unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in >me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like >a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, >or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, >his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, >and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. Hi Jacques You might have 2 things here at work: 1/ your genuine desire of understanding more about your life, God, etc 2/ some personal problems not related to knowledge or maharaji, or any of your spiritual aspirations. M himself said very often that k is not supposed to be an help for solving your problems. As far as I’ve understood myself, being hurt by my involvement in k & m, I’ve done that kind of mixture too. Without any result but total frustration. Now that I’ve been thinking a lot about it, I’ve understood that a devotional relationship with m (or anybody or anything) is the GREATEST hinder in someone’s personal evolution. I know premies will obviously say that they find m and ‘knowledge’ very helpful, but we’re not talking about the same thing. What m & premies call ‘knowledge’, the ‘world of knowledge’, the ‘grace of the perfect master’, is a total hallucination IMHO. Maybe it’s enjoyable for those who like it. I obviously did for very long. Now I’ve realized how much damage it can do. For me and for many people I know. Hallucinations appear to be very real, you can live in them. I find it very psychotic now. If you want to have a real life, you have to separate your inner experience from Mr Rawat, and obviously God from Mr Rawat too. Its very feasible, painful, but you won’t lose anything. Whatever you can feel inside of you is not linked to m. Maybe he opened a door for you, that’s what’s tricky, but he owns no copyright on this, there are plenty of other gurus, and he is a very deceitful one and not qualified at all as a teacher from what I understand. Once this link will be severed (cut) (that’s the BAD thing to do for a premie, but you won’t be changed into a frog), you’ll be able to look at yourself and find a solution and a relief for the problems you experience. K and/or God are NEVER going to solve your problems. Worse: IMHO believing in their help will WORSEN them. Blindfaith won’t take you anywhere, I’m sorry to say this. More than 90% of the people who received k left m sooner or later, there is a good reason for that. Even some of the MOST devoted mahatmas/initiators/instructors left. These people sincerely believed in him, to the point they realized he is a harmful person. There are (maybe) miracles happening here and there from time to time, but we can’t rely on that kind of expectation. >But more and more I realize that it is a question of being >myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which >seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. >It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so >many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime >do not know anymore what is realy me inside. My suggestion would be to find a way (not related to knowledge, maybe professional help) to relax, and think about it from another perspective. I also (like many people here obviously) had to face lots of difficult, and I now understand that it’s very difficult, maybe impossible to get out of some situations by yourself. M is of NO help in those cases, even premies will agree. I’ve found this Forum very helpful to understand lots of things related to my past experiences in EV/DLM and related to m. Best wishes Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:03:28 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Jesus premie, what kind Subject: Re: of friend are you? (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Christ premie, What kind of help is that? You are a fraud. You really think that you have found ANYTHING inside? Trust in the one who gave you the tools? prem rawat did not give you anything. Your mother gave you life and god gave you breath. prem rawat is not god! Fine is you want keep up a fantasy but don't throw a man a falsehood and spout false pretenses and imply that all he has to do is make MORE effort to reach what he already has all around him. It's the most evil of all the devil's tricks to make someone distracted from thier life and thier god and point them to a false path to god and a false idol to worship and sing to and listen too and to kiss the feet of the false god. Amazing! maharaji is NOT your friend. I absolutely refuse to sit back and watch him do this to more and more people. Listen pal, Knowledge works. IF you pay attention to the one who gave them to you, that is. He's the instruction manual - and you NEED one. Lose trust in the manual, and you probably won't get the tools to work (could be your situation). Get your head out from your tunnel for a moment and realize that the techniques not working for you doesn't mean they don't work. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:36:07 (EST)
Poster: Sunny Email: BB To: A premie Subject: Day (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Why don't you discuss teqhniques with sir david? He certainly has done them plenty and been as successful as any could. I might say to notice how down to earth he is. It doesn't make you spiritually attained or any otherworldly goal attainment realized. On another note, of course my breath works! So does everyone elses. My (constant) life is not a technique! The flashes behind my eyelids are not the hiding place of god. I guess prem rawat is changeing his title again? Now he is the lord, master, instruction manual! Love that high standard! What tools? God has spent 18 billion years making a creation (courtesy of the elements and DNA and whatnot) so that I can hear. The noise inside is not closer to god then the noise outside! My wonderful blue eyes are not looking out at a world that is devoid of god! What are you after? Even at the local church they talk about the 'holy spirit' being the breath. I guess someday they will announce that maharaji is the lord, maybe you could let them know now? The millenium is a quarter century old for christ sake. Of course everyone is just stupid and won't recognise the lord because he is to busy 'putting up with bullshit' To quote him. I run too hot to be a person you and premie and student and the french jack talk to here. So I will just post over in the corner and not watch you guys. head in the tunnel and all that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:36:11 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: David Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: You missed my point. I don't need approval from others. Your previous comment that Maharaji should know better than me about how to practise the techniques, meant nothing to me. I don't believe he does know better than me how to practise them. You see I no longer see him as a master. Just someone who is posing as a master. The point of mentioning statistics regarding how few people who received the knowledge continue to practise it, is this; Maharaji's knowledge as he prescribes it, is impossible for most people to practise. So what happens is that they do not practise it. That's fairly logical isn't it. Knowledge is very practisable, and if you were to continue to trust him as your teacher, he would be able to help you. Based on what I've read from you, you could use that help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 14:46:24 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: from Jacques volckman Delabesse I can't stop thinking about méditation, neither seeing the will of God through everything. I am full of culpability concerning my actions, and I live 24h with an inner pression unbelieveball. I though realy hope to access to something in me, or to reach something real. I am suffering a lot. It is like a super resistance inside, and I fight it by actions, like stop smoking, or working, or taking risks with the thaughts that Guru Maharaj ji, his omnipotence, will protect me, and so I can be proud of me, and self assure that I have done something that will bring me enlightment. But more and more I realize that it is a question of being myself againts the idea of ' a fantastic experience' which seem to be always somewhere, in the stars, unreachable. It take so much determination to continue, to renonce to so many things, that it make me almost cry. And I sometime do not know anymore what is realy me inside. Jacques I think it's honorable that you want to know about yourself on a deep level. What you ARE is certainly worth finding out about. My experience is that self-knowledge is not 'a fantastic experience' in a WOW kind of way, but it is in a simple and serene kind of way. If one can be still, that serenity comes through. It is sweet yet subtle, and meant to be felt, not thought about. Knowledge is a set of tools to help you still the noise. Trust in the one who gave you the tools - they work. And trust in the omnipotence of the power of life inside you, i.e., that you are meant to find what you are looking for, if you want it. Bonne chance! Hi You said 'trust in the one who gave you the tools - they work'. As far as I'm concerned, 'the tools' are, and always have been public domain - GM nicked them in the early 70's as part of his marketing plan for the west. Anyhow, a guy called Mahatma Gyanyoganand Ji gave me the tools, not GM. He was more of a teacher to me than GM ever has been. I wonder where Gyanand is now? I find it dificult to trust in Gyanand as I haven't seen him for 25 years. To trust in the one who gave you the techniques is surely placing that person on the 'Divine' pedastal. Why should anyone trust him if he is not in the god zone? You probobly think that he is 'divine', please correct me if i'm mistaken. If you do not think that he is 'divine' then how on earth can you trust him, for surely then he is just another human struggling through? Please tell me (if you wish), do you think he is 'divine' or not? It is one or the other, no grey areas. all the best, ex-mug I'm really not in a position to say what on this earth is divine, and what is not. I can say that he has been a doorway for me from the physical to a world that is divine. So I trust him based on that revelation. The question is, "Is the doorway between these worlds in the divine world or the physical world?". My answer would be, "Neither and both". Sorry to sound ambiguouos but I don't see it as black or white. Maybe you making it so caused some confusion around the subject for you. Just a thought. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:00:17 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: The Subject: Re: Hydra (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Just when Hercules thought things were going to quite down the dang thing grew another head or two. And after the magazine article---who knows? Many! The adaptability of the hydra is a testiment to its survival skills. Myths and fables make it so easy to see which side is "good" and which side is "bad." In real life we have to trust ourselves to peer through shades of grey and trust our intuition. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 15:05:29 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: M doesn't want profits, he wants GIFTS! (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: My experience is that 5 minutes on each technique is almost useless. My suggestion is to follow the guidance of the person who gave the techniques. He DOES understand how they work (more than I think you do Dave). Hi And I say that he DOESN'T understand how the techniques work. I was a premie for 23 years, practicing every day etc etc... t is your OPINION that he knows how they work, as it is my OPINION that he doesn't know how the work. What on earth gives you the right to assume that Dave knows anything less than you? Yours reminds me of the usual premie arrogance when it comes to Big M. Actually, you probobly know less about Big M, than you think. ex-mug Ex-mug The techniques work. I know THAT because when I followed Maharaji's guidance on how to "use" them (for 24 years), something wonderful happened. I've tried doing 5 minutes on each technique and something wonderful didn't happen. In that respect, therefore, Dave knows something less than me. And mug, I don't give a shit if I sound arrogant to you saying so. There are some things that are outside the scope of mere opinion. >>Actually, you probobly know less about Big M, than you think. >> I know less about him than some, and more than others. So what are you saying, you have some "secrets" that make you "in the know"? What... trying to give yourself credibility when you can't muster any by the relevance of your ideas or the elegance of your words? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 16:44:46 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: Sunny Subject: Re: Day (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: Why don't you discuss teqhniques with sir david? He certainly has done them plenty and been as successful as any could. I might say to notice how down to earth he is. It doesn't make you spiritually attained or any otherworldly goal attainment realized. On another note, of course my breath works! So does everyone elses. My (constant) life is not a technique! The flashes behind my eyelids are not the hiding place of god. I guess prem rawat is changeing his title again? Now he is the lord, master, instruction manual! Love that high standard! What tools? God has spent 18 billion years making a creation (courtesy of the elements and DNA and whatnot) so that I can hear. The noise inside is not closer to god then the noise outside! My wonderful blue eyes are not looking out at a world that is devoid of god! What are you after? Even at the local church they talk about the 'holy spirit' being the breath. I guess someday they will announce that maharaji is the lord, maybe you could let them know now? The millenium is a quarter century old for christ sake. Of course everyone is just stupid and won't recognise the lord because he is to busy 'putting up with bullshit' To quote him. I run too hot to be a person you and premie and student and the french jack talk to here. So I will just post over in the corner and not watch you guys. head in the tunnel and all that. If your writing is any reflection of your thought process, you must have an "interesting" life. Here's a tip when communicating to others: Why not try to be a little more succinct. I really have no idea what you said in your post. I trust you do. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 22:26:58 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Maharaji's video business Message: One thing you also have to consider is that money raised in the US and Europe supports the distribution of videos to lots of communities in other countries who don't have the funds. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 00:02:41 (EST)
Poster: Night and Email: ghsdfgh To: A premie Subject: Day (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: You should slow down and read carefully. People here read yours carefully. You wiz past some great stuff here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 03:59:26 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: CD Subject: Lies and video business .. (Re: Maharaji's video business) Message: I'm sorry dear CD! I've been to Africa twice, and talked with many of these premies living there: they regularily donate to EV 10% of their income. This is very strongly suggerated by the local instructors EV gets a lot of money in these poor places: they have thousands of aspirants! you wouldn't believe it. Poor guys .... What they lack is video projectors, for instance, but these have been donated by european premies. You don't imagine how much money m gets in these 'poor' countries! A few years ago, premies purchased a recent brand new mercedes in India, and not a cheap one. Do you know how much taxes they have in India (on imported cars)? 100% of the value of the car. Now make your calculations. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |