Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 7 | |
From: Feb 20, 1998 |
To: Feb 28, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 16:38:17 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Everyone Subject: So why are you here? Message: I'm a relatively new observer on this forum with very few posts to my credit. The more I read, the more disappointed I am in the content. I sift through the forum looking for intellectual debate on humanity and, when I find an interesting strand, it quickly regresses to name-calling against Maharaji. I understand the need some ex-premies have to share past pains and disappointments. However, judgments and insults against each other cloud curiosity for truth. If one purpose of this forum is to ask questions and explore the truth, then I will continue to be interested. Just because another person doesn't trust Maharaji as I do doesn't mean we have nothing to say to each other. For me, it's about life and evolution. I guess there's a different purpose for every individual who logs on. What I see is a tangle of prejudices, moves and countermoves from both sides, and nothing positive. I never enjoyed soap operas or talk show fights anyway. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 16:55:54 (EST)
Poster: I'm here for all the pleasures of Email: bb To: Student Subject: friendship, the enjoyments of sense and reason, and the stuff of life (Re: So why are you here?) Message: So, what is the intellectual debate on humanity that you want to have? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 17:06:55 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: I'm here for all the pleasures of Subject: Re: friendship, the enjoyments of sense and reason, and the stuff of life (Re: So why are you here?) Message: I've only responded to other threads until now. Unfortunately my surfing time is limited. You ask a very good question. Until later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 17:17:56 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: Dear Student: You say: "I'm a relatively new observer on this forum with very few posts to my credit. The more I read, the more disappointed I am in the content." I am surprised that you would start off your post with a general insult against everyone who does contribute here. But I guess I am not that surprised, many premies on this site are fairly insulting and rude. And you sound very much like miscellaneous premies in the past who start off their 'rare' posts in much the same manner. Is that really the way to start an 'intellectual debate' about 'humanity'? What exactly do you want to discuss? Or is it that you really have nothing to say other than to insult us? Uplift us, my friend! Whining and complaining that I'm not uplifting you is not very uplifting! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 17:19:16 (EST)
Poster: observer Email: To: Student Subject: Re: friendship, the enjoyments of sense and reason, and the stuff of life (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Hi! I'm here to have fun Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 18:05:43 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: I'm a relatively new observer on this forum with very few posts to my credit. The more I read, the more disappointed I am in the content. I sift through the forum looking for intellectual debate on humanity and, when I find an interesting strand, it quickly regresses to name-calling against Maharaji. I understand the need some ex-premies have to share past pains and disappointments. However, judgments and insults against each other cloud curiosity for truth. If one purpose of this forum is to ask questions and explore the truth, then I will continue to be interested. Just because another person doesn't trust Maharaji as I do doesn't mean we have nothing to say to each other. For me, it's about life and evolution. I guess there's a different purpose for every individual who logs on. What I see is a tangle of prejudices, moves and countermoves from both sides, and nothing positive. I never enjoyed soap operas or talk show fights anyway. Student: It is very stimulating and reinforcing to be involved in open and unfettered dialogue. The attacks on the forum have done more to convince me of GMJs basic illegitimacy than anything that has been said, by me or anyone else. However, I find most of the ex-premies very open to the possibility that their judgment of Maharaji might have been biased. Indeed, that discovery would be liberating. Most of us found it very difficult to admit that we were wrong about him in the first place, and part of each of us would like to find some good reasons to regard him more highly. The trouble is, it's difficult to do that if you insist on having some standards. I disagree with your assessment of the forum. I find that many of the posts have to do with Maharaji in only a peripheral sense, and these often tend to be part of some quite intense debates. No doubt some of these posts would still be available if an as-yet-unidentified premie hadn't retaliated by attempting to shut down the site. I have been concerned that many of the posts I've made have not been sufficiently on point. After all, the point of the site has to do with GMJ, not the philosophy of consciousness, or the conditions of the "good society." I have no reticence about discussing these issues, without any reference to the "flying boy." -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 18:45:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: I'm a relatively new observer on this forum with very few posts to my credit. The more I read, the more disappointed I am in the content. I sift through the forum looking for intellectual debate on humanity and, when I find an interesting strand, it quickly regresses to name-calling against Maharaji. I understand the need some ex-premies have to share past pains and disappointments. However, judgments and insults against each other cloud curiosity for truth. If one purpose of this forum is to ask questions and explore the truth, then I will continue to be interested. Just because another person doesn't trust Maharaji as I do doesn't mean we have nothing to say to each other. For me, it's about life and evolution. I guess there's a different purpose for every individual who logs on. What I see is a tangle of prejudices, moves and countermoves from both sides, and nothing positive. I never enjoyed soap operas or talk show fights anyway. Student: It is very stimulating and reinforcing to be involved in open and unfettered dialogue. The attacks on the forum have done more to convince me of GMJs basic illegitimacy than anything that has been said, by me or anyone else. However, I find most of the ex-premies very open to the possibility that their judgment of Maharaji might have been biased. Indeed, that discovery would be liberating. Most of us found it very difficult to admit that we were wrong about him in the first place, and part of each of us would like to find some good reasons to regard him more highly. The trouble is, it's difficult to do that if you insist on having some standards. I disagree with your assessment of the forum. I find that many of the posts have to do with Maharaji in only a peripheral sense, and these often tend to be part of some quite intense debates. No doubt some of these posts would still be available if an as-yet-unidentified premie hadn't retaliated by attempting to shut down the site. I have been concerned that many of the posts I've made have not been sufficiently on point. After all, the point of the site has to do with GMJ, not the philosophy of consciousness, or the conditions of the "good society." I have no reticence about discussing these issues, without any reference to the "flying boy." -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 18:47:53 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Sorry the message was posted twice. Bill Gate's fault. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 19:14:22 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Sorry the message was posted twice. Bill Gate's fault. Hey Scott don't you go starting platform wars here! Actually I just wanted to ask you if you got my email which I sent to you days ago.That's all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 19:21:38 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@gmu.edu To: Anon Subject: Re: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Sorry the message was posted twice. Bill Gate's fault. Hey Scott don't you go starting platform wars here! Actually I just wanted to ask you if you got my email which I sent to you days ago.That's all. Anon: I haven't seen your email. Katie sent one a few days ago that she had to re-send. Try the email address below, instead of the forwarding address (which apparently sometimes gets confused). -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 20:34:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie to Scott Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Sorry the message was posted twice. Bill Gate's fault. Hey Scott don't you go starting platform wars here! Actually I just wanted to ask you if you got my email which I sent to you days ago.That's all. Anon: I haven't seen your email. Katie sent one a few days ago that she had to re-send. Try the email address below, instead of the forwarding address (which apparently sometimes gets confused). -Scott Scott - did you get my second e-mail (in answer to yours)? If not, I'll resend. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 01:28:02 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie to Scott Subject: Re: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Sorry the message was posted twice. Bill Gate's fault. Hey Scott don't you go starting platform wars here! Actually I just wanted to ask you if you got my email which I sent to you days ago.That's all. Anon: I haven't seen your email. Katie sent one a few days ago that she had to re-send. Try the email address below, instead of the forwarding address (which apparently sometimes gets confused). -Scott Scott - did you get my second e-mail (in answer to yours)? If not, I'll resend. Katie: Yes I did get it. Thanks. Have been meaning to reply, but have to defend my dissertation next week. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 04:05:06 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: I'm a relatively new observer on this forum with very few posts to my credit. The more I read, the more disappointed I am in the content. I sift through the forum looking for intellectual debate on humanity and, when I find an interesting strand, it quickly regresses to name-calling against Maharaji. I understand the need some ex-premies have to share past pains and disappointments. However, judgments and insults against each other cloud curiosity for truth. If one purpose of this forum is to ask questions and explore the truth, then I will continue to be interested. Just because another person doesn't trust Maharaji as I do doesn't mean we have nothing to say to each other. For me, it's about life and evolution. I guess there's a different purpose for every individual who logs on. What I see is a tangle of prejudices, moves and countermoves from both sides, and nothing positive. I never enjoyed soap operas or talk show fights anyway. Hi Student For someone who has never enjoyed soap operas, it interests me that you are involved with GM and his circus, which is has all the trappings of a soap opera. GM has watched a lot of soaps (ever seen the video of his marriage, or the one just after Prem Lata was born? - lots of soapy music and sickeningly sweet sentiment - yuck!). But I guess it doesn't bother you too much. All the best ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 09:27:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie to Scott Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Sorry for the dual posting. (Re: So why are you here?) Message: Have been meaning to reply, but have to defend my dissertation next week. -Scott Well, that's a pretty good excuse! What are you doing posting on here anyway! (I know, you can't think about your defense 24 hours a day). Good luck, and don't worry about answering e-mails! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 14:27:01 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: Point taken. From now on I'll reserve my input for when I see something uplifting. Insulting you was not my intent. The content I find disappointing in any conversation is when thoughtful debate is reduced to name calling. Yes, I guess I'm one of those "miscellaneous premies" that won't be posting often. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 14:33:46 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: We have different perceptions of soaps. Besides, my curiosity is limited where Maharaji's family life is concerned. I can understand your aversion to Maharaji's family videos when you have no relationship with him as devotee or friend. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 15:02:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: Dear Student - I don't want to put words in John K.'s mouth, but I think what he meant about the "insulting premies who don't post often" was not directed at you personally. You have made several thoughtful posts, which people have appreciated. However, there have been some premies who have only posted once or twice and all they have done is say that the content of the forum is worthless, or that everyone is a bunch of whiners, or that all the ex-premies should 'get a life' and quit complaining, or something equally insulting. You get the picture, I'm sure. This is quite irritating to the people who post on here regularly, as you can probably imagine. Many of us do put time and thought into our posts. The other thing I wanted to say is that there are a number of different agendas on the forum, and I think your plan to respond (or read) only threads that you find uplifting is a good one. Some people really enjoy the arguing, and even the name-calling. That is their right since this is an unmoderated forum. I've found it's best, for myself, to skip threads that I'm either not interested in, or that irritate me. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:52:58 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: Dear Student - I don't want to put words in John K.'s mouth, but I think what he meant about the 'insulting premies who don't post often' was not directed at you personally. You have made several thoughtful posts, which people have appreciated. However, there have been some premies who have only posted once or twice and all they have done is say that the content of the forum is worthless, or that everyone is a bunch of whiners, or that all the ex-premies should 'get a life' and quit complaining, or something equally insulting. You get the picture, I'm sure. This is quite irritating to the people who post on here regularly, as you can probably imagine. Many of us do put time and thought into our posts. The other thing I wanted to say is that there are a number of different agendas on the forum, and I think your plan to respond (or read) only threads that you find uplifting is a good one. Some people really enjoy the arguing, and even the name-calling. That is their right since this is an unmoderated forum. I've found it's best, for myself, to skip threads that I'm either not interested in, or that irritate me. Regards from Katie Sensible advice. I've been reading and posting a couple of weeks now. Where did all of my free time go? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 20:12:56 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Student Subject: Re: So why are you here? Message: Sensible advice. I've been reading and posting a couple of weeks now. Where did all of my free time go? I know what you mean. I keep warning people that the forum is addicting! Or can be. I do feel like I can help people sometimes, and of course people have helped me sometimes, so it's not really wasted time (like playing computer games is for some people.) Plus I don't have a chance to think creatively very much at my job, and the forum offers me a chance to do this. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 15:10:07 (EST)
Poster: Oh dear..Brian wants your Email: mmm To: Everyone Subject: Identity. Sneaky little boy Message: Well ..what a creap. Brian wants to know your ID if you attack his forum. Typically bitter ex premie. I advise premies to leave this poor excuse for a forum alone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 15:50:15 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Oh dear..Brian wants your Subject: Re: Identity. Sneaky little boy Message: Well ..what a creap. Brian wants to know your ID if you attack his forum. Typically bitter ex premie. I advise premies to leave this poor excuse for a forum alone. SLB: Well, I guess "just conduct" is no longer a consideration for being on a spiritual path. Possibly a reflection of the guru you "follow?" Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 18:40:59 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Oh dear..Brian wants your Subject: Re: Identity. Sneaky little boy Message: Well ..what a creap. Brian wants to know your ID if you attack his forum. Typically bitter ex premie. I advise premies to leave this poor excuse for a forum alone. OOOOOOOOOOOO. We are indeed chastised. I'm sure Brian feels very small. But then, at least the ex-premies HAVE a site, unlike the premies, as your own "master" thinks you're too stupid and confused to even talke about him or knowledge, and hence he shut down the one premies used to have, such as it was. And if you are going to call people names, at least spell them correctly. It really takes away from your credibility if you don't. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 23:09:25 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Oh dear..Brian wants your Subject: Re: Identity. Sneaky little boy Message: Well ..what a creap. Brian wants to know your ID if you attack his forum. Typically bitter ex premie. I advise premies to leave this poor excuse for a forum alone. Brian doesn't want your identity. Brian has his own. It has grown much stronger since abandoning the belief that it was somehow linked with Prem Pal Rawat's. As for your advice to premies, premies also have their own identities and can decide what they want themselves. That's why I'm taking steps to see that their sole outlet for expressing thier views on Anything and Everything about Maharaji is protected from people who offer nothing more to others than advice. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 13:36:51 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Adios, Paradise Message: Within the next 2 weeks, this forum will be replaced with another. I'm taking this step because I'm fed up with trying to maintain a working and stable forum on this server. We will be moving to a forum server that allows us to install and maintain our own sofware and database. They host it, we maintain it. I've located free software that does what I want, but there will be a cost to have the forum hosted. It will be at least 200 per year, and possibly more. Anyone wishing to help defray the cost can write to me about it. Any help will be appreciated, but I'm willing to spring for it myself rather than put up with any more of the lame programming propping up this server. Paradise not only eats the index periodically (twice in the last week), but they also provide no means of blocking an offending poster outside of blocking their IP address. This means that in order to prevent posts from an offender at AOL, I would have to prevent everyone on AOL from reading the forum. I am discussing this openly for the first time because I don't give a shit any more about this forum. I've known for some time that this server was open to attack by anyone brighter than Mili. I always felt it would be an attack staged by someone who was offended that Maharaji and his little cult were being openly discussed without his 'blessings'. Unfortunately, the final straw landed this morning when, after being up late last night hand-editing archives, I woke to find that 155 posts were lost forever because they were deleted from the 'database' by the server to make room for 5.5 MEGS of X's posted to the forum in an attempt to crash the system. This attempt was prompted out of boredom and a complete collapse of sensibility. That, and the fact that the idiots at Paradise don't trap for it. I can't begin to express my frustration and anger, so I won't attempt it. Forum III will be a password protected forum to posters. It will be Read-Only to those not having a password. People wishing to post will have to provide a userid and password with each post. Userids and passwords will be freely available to anyone wishing to post, and anonymity will be provided. Our sole information required to post will consist of an email address (where your first password will be sent) and one piece of personal information (i.e. mother's maiden name) allowing us to verify before re-mailing passwords to anyone who might forget theirs. Posters will be able and encouraged to change their passwords after recieving them. I'll discuss the other features of the software at a later time, but want to be clear with everyone about the password feature first. I've been reluctant to take this step out of knowing that some people might feel that this would constitute the closing of a previously-open forum. But this is the only way to protect posters here from being harassed by anyone with a web browser, and still ensure that the forum is available to read by those who sneak peaks. I will be as reluctant to block a particular poster as I have been to block an IP address, and probably too forgiving of offenders. The person who has come closest to deserving blocking has been Mili. Yet, even though there are very few people posting here from Croatia, there has been no blocking of his ability to post. It doesn't get much more open than that. People who have posted regularly here can be assured that nobody else will be able to grab or use the name that they have been posting under. There will be no more imposters this way. Any ex's or premies or virtuals (grin) are welcome to post here. But there has to be some way to guarantee stability and I'm out of ideas, people. Until the change, any further attempts at disrupting the forum for whatever reason will be met with blocked IP's resulting in loss of ability to read from those ISPs. Should your ISP become blocked due to the actions of another, watch the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji) and the site (www.ex-premie.org) for news regarding the new forum's URL. This thread outa get some responses (grin). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 13:51:33 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian: I'm all for your proposed changes, and I would be happy to help out financially. Actually, I figured it was just a matter of time before someone pulled a trick like the one last night (5.5 MEG of x's). What was it Hobbes said? One should only desire a freedom to be taken away if it is in one's best interest to have it taken away. In this case, it is in our best interest (self-preservation). That said, what about newcomers to the site? What will be the procedure for someone new to gain access beyond read-only? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 13:55:24 (EST)
Poster: David of Kiss Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Within the next 2 weeks, this forum will be replaced with another. I'm taking this step because I'm fed up with trying to maintain a working and stable forum on this server. We will be moving to a forum server that allows us to install and maintain our own sofware and database. They host it, we maintain it. I've located free software that does what I want, but there will be a cost to have the forum hosted. It will be at least 200 per year, and possibly more. Anyone wishing to help defray the cost can write to me about it. Any help will be appreciated, but I'm willing to spring for it myself rather than put up with any more of the lame programming propping up this server. Paradise not only eats the index periodically (twice in the last week), but they also provide no means of blocking an offending poster outside of blocking their IP address. This means that in order to prevent posts from an offender at AOL, I would have to prevent everyone on AOL from reading the forum. I am discussing this openly for the first time because I don't give a shit any more about this forum. I've known for some time that this server was open to attack by anyone brighter than Mili. I always felt it would be an attack staged by someone who was offended that Maharaji and his little cult were being openly discussed without his 'blessings'. Unfortunately, the final straw landed this morning when, after being up late last night hand-editing archives, I woke to find that 155 posts were lost forever because they were deleted from the 'database' by the server to make room for 5.5 MEGS of X's posted to the forum in an attempt to crash the system. This attempt was prompted out of boredom and a complete collapse of sensibility. That, and the fact that the idiots at Paradise don't trap for it. I can't begin to express my frustration and anger, so I won't attempt it. Forum III will be a password protected forum to posters. It will be Read-Only to those not having a password. People wishing to post will have to provide a userid and password with each post. Userids and passwords will be freely available to anyone wishing to post, and anonymity will be provided. Our sole information required to post will consist of an email address (where your first password will be sent) and one piece of personal information (i.e. mother's maiden name) allowing us to verify before re-mailing passwords to anyone who might forget theirs. Posters will be able and encouraged to change their passwords after recieving them. I'll discuss the other features of the software at a later time, but want to be clear with everyone about the password feature first. I've been reluctant to take this step out of knowing that some people might feel that this would constitute the closing of a previously-open forum. But this is the only way to protect posters here from being harassed by anyone with a web browser, and still ensure that the forum is available to read by those who sneak peaks. I will be as reluctant to block a particular poster as I have been to block an IP address, and probably too forgiving of offenders. The person who has come closest to deserving blocking has been Mili. Yet, even though there are very few people posting here from Croatia, there has been no blocking of his ability to post. It doesn't get much more open than that. People who have posted regularly here can be assured that nobody else will be able to grab or use the name that they have been posting under. There will be no more imposters this way. Any ex's or premies or virtuals (grin) are welcome to post here. But there has to be some way to guarantee stability and I'm out of ideas, people. Until the change, any further attempts at disrupting the forum for whatever reason will be met with blocked IP's resulting in loss of ability to read from those ISPs. Should your ISP become blocked due to the actions of another, watch the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji) and the site (www.ex-premie.org) for news regarding the new forum's URL. This thread outa get some responses (grin).Is there any way you can limit the message size that the database will accept? I realised before that the way to crash the Forum would be to send an extra large message but didn't mention it just in case someone who was previously unaware of this fact suddenly got ideas. I think most decent software will limit message size in order to prevent crashes to the system. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 19:10:19 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: You must be really annoyed over this. I presume you have tried all means to persuade Paradise to rectify these 2 main issues (as I hear you these being a)the trashing of the index problem and b) the inability to have an input field that limits to a specified number of characters) I suppose if Paradise could be persuaded to make the neccessary changes it would save a lot of work. Incidently I assume that I must have inadvertantly tried to download that rogue post. I watched in surprise as Netscape informed me that 107k had loaded and it still carried on! I thought to myself over my coffee (I was in a patient somewhat sleepy mood) "This is an extraordinarily long post" However as the file size increased at a terrifying rate my alarm bells rang and I aborted sweating profusely and reaching for my Anti-Virus software. (only kidding about that bit) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 19:39:40 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian Whew! I have had a major work crisis, and have not been reading. I am sorry you had all this trouble. I say, go for it!!! Why put up with this bs? My only concern is, IF my ISP is blocked, I can't read alt.cult.M for some reason. I would have to request it being added to the news list, and am reluctant to do that, for the plain and simple reason I am embarrassed tohave ever ever been involved with M! But I still say go for it. I will provide a user and pw and hope others support you as well. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 23:01:17 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: John K. Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: That said, what about newcomers to the site? What will be the procedure for someone new to gain access beyond read-only? The software is configurable to allow people who want Write access to self-register by filling in a form via a web browser. A password is emailed right off to them by the software. I want the forum to run along fine with a minimum of coddling and intervention required on my part. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 23:53:12 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Anon Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: I presume you have tried all means to persuade Paradise to rectify these 2 main issues (as I hear you these being a)the trashing of the index problem and b) the inability to have an input field that limits to a specified number of characters). I suppose if Paradise could be persuaded to make the neccessary changes it would save a lot of work. I have not contacted Paradise. While this might seem surprising at first read, I'll explain. In conversations with Scott, I found out that we're dealing with young kids with money to put into this service. They offered a lifetime forum for a one-time fee of 25 dollars. Do the math, and you see that they have to continue to sign people up forever just to maintain their hardware - let alone end up with anything afterwards. So we're not dealing with math majors here. The archiver was written by them only after urging by Scott that it was needed since it's irritating to get 500 posts and then have to delete the entire database to make room for another 500 posts. They couldn't figure this out for themselves. The index deleting 'feature' is the result of their programming abilities. Since we aren't the only people using their services, it has to be happening to others. It's their bug to find and fix if they want to remain in business, and I shouldn't have to prod and poke them into providing a marketable product. Yet it would seem to be necessary. That it has not occurred to them that someone might attempt to crash their system by posting the Encyclopedia Brittanica also speaks volumes about their short-sightedness. [ I had to use that pun :) ] You'll notice that periodically a post is echoed. This has been happening since day one. Again they don't seem to be able to fix it. The post echoing was the first indication to me that we are dealing with major security problems here. I had thought that any attack on the site would originate with people flooding the database with posts. Others here were aware of the problem and kept quiet about it in light of Mili's attempt to remove the newsgroup. There is no provision to validate posters and lock out offenders. The Reply page is created by Paradise on the fly and I have no means of diverting it to the site where I could run a script to block particular people. Instead I would be forced to block entire ISPs. Since the purpose of this site is one of offering freely what we have learned about MJ's self-enrichment scam, that is hardly a workable long-term solution. There is no database. The messages are individual files located in a directory. Notice that your Location/Site window reads 'which=MSG111.txt' or some other number. That is the name of the file that gets plugged into their HTML page in the part where the post appears. The 'archiver' does not allow me direct access to a database to download (there is none) and instead creates a humongous HTML document that is impossible to break up. I wrote a utility to do this for me, but it is in their customers' interest to not be required to learn to program in order to maintain a forum. In short, they would have to completely rewrite their program and restructure their service in order to provide a product that we can depend on. They're not going to do this for people who they don't have the ability to charge (we're paid through the end of MJ's Millennium). If we are going to have to pay, we would be better off dealing with programmers who already have demonstrated competence rather than those who have shown that they have no real grasp of what features a forum should offer. I'm writing them off. It was a well-spent 25 dollars. It served it's purpose, but now we have to have control over how the forum runs rather then remain in a position of relying on other people to make this forum work. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 00:09:47 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: David of Kiss Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Is there any way you can limit the message size that the database will accept? The only way to fix this server would be to place it in the hands of competent programmers. I think most decent software will limit message size in order to prevent crashes to the system. I agree, and that's why I'm giving up on them. I realised before that the way to crash the Forum would be to send an extra large message but didn't mention it just in case someone who was previously unaware of this fact suddenly got ideas. I recall your email to me regarding crashing the server, but was still settling in at that point and forgot to respond later. Sorry about that, but I was a newbie at the time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 00:16:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian Whew! I have had a major work crisis, and have not been reading. I am sorry you had all this trouble. I say, go for it!!! Why put up with this bs? My only concern is, IF my ISP is blocked, I can't read alt.cult.M for some reason. I would have to request it being added to the news list, and am reluctant to do that, for the plain and simple reason I am embarrassed tohave ever ever been involved with M! But I still say go for it. I will provide a user and pw and hope others support you as well. Other than Sneaky Little Boy above, the response has been favorable. Thanks Selena and everyone else for not frying me at the stake for suggesting this heresy. As for blocking IPs, this is only going to happen at this point because I know it would only be temporary and the new forum will offer some real features beyond 'Block Everyone With A Vowel In Their Name'. I'm determined that while we still have a need for this software, that we not have one person interfere with what is benefitting everyone else. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 00:47:35 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: One Final Note (Re: Adios, Paradise) Message: I just answered some email from someone who asked if I knew who had posted the problem posts. The answer was 'yes, I know'. That's all you'll get out of me. It was someone who made a blunder. It wasn't this person's first blunder. They've made other mistakes and probably the biggest one was falling for Maharaji's proclaimation of divinity. The reason why this forum has to be protected is that we have all done this. Some of us still believe MJ. Some of us know better. In either case, this site will continue to offer support to everyone who comes here looking for some understanding from people capable of very stupid thinking. I'm a champion at stupid thinking, and have laid out a trail through this world that those less enept can follow. I'll continue to offer my support for my fellow idiots. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 04:19:36 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Brian Subject: Very sorry (Re: Adios, Paradise) Message: It looks like I’m a « Wanted » person here! You’re true, I must totally lack of sensibility. I can tell you what happened: I don’t remember exactly at what time, but I came on the Forum a 1st time yesterday morning, and everything was OK. I came back an hour or so later, and the Forum had crashed. I was really feeling frustrated, and wondering if someone had done this purposely. I couldn’t imagine the Forum could crash on it’s own so often. I admit I was quite stupid trying to prove something, it wasn’t my job! I’m not very good at programming and don’t have much understanding of the way this Forum works. As only 2 or 3 posts were there at that time, I tried to send long xxxxx’s posts, but I’m sure they were not 5 Megs long. What I finally understood is that it’s not that kind of long posts that can crash the system. I can tell you they have some kind of security, because the sending of the post stopped after a few minutes sending an error message (I’ve tried twice), and I think it must take much longer to send 5 megs with my 33.600 bps modem. I was feeling a bit ashamed afterwards, having done such a childish thing. That proved something anyway (beside my stupidity and my lack of sensibility). Someone maybe (I understand you might disagree) had to try this, I’m not sure. I’m still very paranoid and I couldn’t help imagining someone trying to crash this forum. I don’t know what I was trying to prove doing this. I’ll think about it. There is obviously something (that I feel) wrong in me for doing this. I don’t know. First do this and then speak about it. I don’t know. Frustration. A lot. Lack of what I thought I had for all my life. People already said here that this Forum also works like a therapy. I’m sorry for not behaving myself and hurting people here, if I did. I still had these htm files on my HD, and I’m sending them by email. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 05:10:32 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian, Thanks for that lengthy post. It was most informative and interesting and I now see exactly what you're up against. I am right behind you on looking for a more elegant solution elsewhere. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 05:23:36 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Very sorry (Re: Adios, Paradise) Message: Mr Ex, Whoever said your message was 5 megs is plainly wrong unless you sat there forlornly uploading it for the hour(s) it would have taken! I am sure your frivolous act of sin will be eventually forgiven! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 06:36:42 (EST)
Poster: Luis Email: luissanc@bellsouth.net To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian, you are a great man; you are bringing real knowledge to naïve trusting people with your work and you are not even asking to be kept in a fancy house like M. I wish there was a similar site when I was an active premie and probably I would lost less time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 07:38:02 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Luis Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Actually, I DO want to be kept in a fancy house. Even fancier than the ex-Lord's. But ex-premies are harder to threaten with damnation than premies are. Just my luck... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 07:58:04 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Very sorry (Re: Adios, Paradise) Message: Yes you are a wanted person here, as are the rest of us - Spiritual Desperados wrecking havoc with the mission of a fraudulent messiah. You're also wanted here because of what you contribute both to the site and the forum. You've seen things that were kept from my eyes and they eyes of most premies. And you've shared it with us freely on this site and in this forum. It's been much appreciated. I could see myself making the same mistake you made. I've made bigger, but would rather not discuss that in an open forum. Whatever you sent, Paradise blessed and increased multi-fold into 5.5 megs. I know because I cut them out of the archive I ran (1-hour to download) after I saw that the index was gone again. If these people ever program a cash machine they'll own Bill Gates. My main disgust is with people who profess to be in a service-providing business offering this 'quality' of service to their customers. It's too shabby to patch, and too consistently eratic to learn to work around. That it did happen is an irritation to a forum administrator. That it can happen is intolerable to a customer. New computer users are always afraid of the harm that they'll cause accidently by clicking on the wrong button. It's the responsibility of programmers to make damage difficult to do - not to remain ignorant of any problems just because the checks are still rolling in. I haven't had a chance to look at the files you sent, since I wanted to check the forum first. I'll see what I can include in the next archive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 10:52:45 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Within the next 2 weeks, this forum will be replaced with another. I'm taking this step because I'm fed up with trying to maintain a working and stable forum on this server. [-- snip! --] This thread outa get some responses (grin). Hey send me a means to contact you (anonymous remailer ok, I don't care). Have you seen Yapp, Motet or Caucus? I think they all run on any flavor Unix. Yapp 2 is supposed to be free of royalties/licensing, though I haven't confirmed it. 200 bux a year is chump change -- I think the money can be raised. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 11:23:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian, Mr. Ex, et al: I apologize to the premies accessing the site for some comments, if it proves that Mr. Ex's experiment caused the crash. I am also quite relieved. Nonetheless, the experiment does prove that we are vulnerable and that Paradise is a substandard venue. The fact that premies post here at all is perhaps an indication of just have starved they have become for any discussion of Knowledge other than MJs. In my era we had satsang (or as a friend used to refer to it somewhat derisively, "nightly meetings") Those at least performed some sort of social function as well as the rather imperfect fulfillment of using a basic "neuro-charm," having to do with the interplay of language and discourse. It would be interesting to see the premies establish a mirror site to this one, that ex-premies could visit as outsiders, and that others could use as part of a broad based comparative discourse. Suppose that's a pipe dream, however. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 19:45:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie to Selena Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Selena Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Brian Whew! I have had a major work crisis, and have not been reading. I am sorry you had all this trouble. I say, go for it!!! Why put up with this bs? My only concern is, IF my ISP is blocked, I can't read alt.cult.M for some reason. I would have to request it being added to the news list, and am reluctant to do that, for the plain and simple reason I am embarrassed tohave ever ever been involved with M! But I still say go for it. I will provide a user and pw and hope others support you as well. Hi Selena - I can understand your reluctance to e-mail your ISP and ask them to carry alt.cult.maharaji! I was very embarrassed about having been involved with Maharaji. Now that my involvement is twenty years in the past, of course I'm not so embarrassed. Plus there are other things that I've done in the past twenty years that I am MORE embarrassed about than being involved with Maharaji. (I trust this won't happen to you.) I believe that you can read the newsgroup (although there is not much on there right now except my and Scott's tests and public service announcements) if you go to: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/ngrp_hlp.htm and go to the bottom of the page to the Deja News Reader. You can't actually post messages on Deja News without registering with them in the same way that everyone is going to register with Brian/ex-premie.org. By the way, there is also information on that page on setting up an anonymous e-mail address, should you need to. Let me know if this doesn't make any sense! Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 20:07:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Brian's e-mail address and site finances (Re: Adios, Paradise) Message: To And on Anand Ji & all - Brian's e-mail address is brian@ex-premie.org (really). I agree about the $200, BTW. And just to let everyone know, the server and space for the actual ex-premie site also costs money (approx $500/year, I think). It's currently being underwritten by some very generous and philanthropic ex-premies. Also, I think most people know this but a couple of people have asked me if Brian gets paid, and the answer is no - he does everything on a volunteer basis. (He's a nice guy - what can I say? He also is too nice to talk about money or how much work he does for free, but I'm not...) Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 21:28:27 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: I can't read alt.cult.M for some reason. I would have to request it being added to the news list, and am reluctant to do that, for the plain and simple reason I am embarrassed to have ever ever been involved with M! I probably should have addressed this point. Your ISP is already getting newsgroup requests whether you add to the number or not. They might find some relief in realizing it's not another request for alt.sex.pictures.midgets, etc. Someone wanting information about a cult would be a definite step up from what they see all day long. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 22:04:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Selena Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Yes, I forgot to say that as well. Not sure if you've ever looked at a newsgroup list: some newsgroups are truly weird, some are awful (IMHO, anyway), and some are obscene. Among newsgroups, alt.cult.maharaji is relatively innocuous. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 23:04:12 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Katie and Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Yes, I work in a computer center. It always amazes me that people have absolutely no problem sending email to root requesting additions like alt.sex.binaries.erotica.barney.short.buddha.guy etc. etc. I don't know why this anonymity is so important to me. I think it will be a real sign of health when it becomes easier to admit to having been involved. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 08:55:36 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: Yes, I work in a computer center. It always amazes me that people have absolutely no problem sending email to root requesting additions like alt.sex.binaries.erotica.barney.short.buddha.guy etc. etc. I don't know why this anonymity is so important to me. I think it will be a real sign of health when it becomes easier to admit to having been involved. I've only recently started to talk about it in the real world with people who made other mistakes. The first person I mentioned it to is someone I've known for years. I also know his girlfriend. When I told him, he said that his girlfriend has a relative caught up in something like what I was describing. The relative follows her guru all around the world. I looked at him for a minute, and then told him what I suspected. Sure enough, his girlfriend has since had a chance to browse this site and gain some understanding of the cult that has been haunting her family for 25 years. It's a very small world. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 09:41:06 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Brian Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: [--snip--] . . . When I told him, he said that his girlfriend has a relative caught up in something like what I was describing. The relative follows her guru all around the world. I looked at him for a minute, and then told him what I suspected. Sure enough, his girlfriend has since had a chance to browse this site and gain some understanding of the cult that has been haunting her family for 25 years. It's a very small world. I've told a couple of people who don't get what the big deal is, since I spoke of M in other terms to them, earlier, and they'd accepted that. There's so much distortion in my cognitive thinking patterns surrounding this -- it's very hard to sort out why it is a big deal -- to be able to access simply and easily what was so very wrong about all this. How it has taken from me, every day of my life, resources needed elsewhere, including cohesive, consistent logic and thinking patterns. Until I could openly reject all that insane Vedantic logic, there was little hope for my being able to navigate any but the most rigid of systems (probably explains my interest in computer programming, in which the empirical holds complete sway over the intuitive). I've been unemployed and unemployable most of my adult life. Some of that predates M, of course. A lot of it was prolonged by association with M, DLM, EV and the premie community and the resultant pressure to continue to think insanely (e.g. to repeatedly try that which does not work and is proven not to work, expecting different results). I'm not complaining -- I've had a lot of good things happen, too. I suppose it's honest enough to say every moment I believed in the consistency (there was none, but no matter) of what M taught, and forced my squareness of peg into that roundness of hole, I was not only ok, but seemingly of good cheer. According to Vonnegut, we are what we pretend to be (and so, he cautions, we ought to be damned careful about what we pretend to be!) Wed Feb 25 09:29:29 EST 1998 Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 19:08:08 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: Adios, Paradise Message: "According to Vonnegut, we are what we pretend to be (and so, he cautions, we ought to be damned careful about what we pretend to be!) " I hope he was making M an exception. Otherwise, we are all in trouble! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:34:49 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Creator, Preserver, Destroyer Message: If Creator, Preserver, Destroyer bow their heads and pray unto Him, perhaps he's gotten fed up and conscripted the Destroyer to do a little mischief here in cyber-ex-premie land? Seriously, there were some very good posts over the weekend and it'd be nice if they could get put back up here to continue the discussions. I particularly liked John K.'s post addressing A Premie about the devotion issue. Can you re-post it John? The one about it being like a love affair? It was really right on. Also, JW's list of titles was beyond hilarious. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 13:21:56 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Joy Subject: Re: Creator, Preserver, Destroyer Message: Thanks Joy! If I get in the mood and have the time, I will try to re-write it. I also would like to see that post of Joe's about the titles.? I only had time to read a few. Also, that excerpt (grace of Jim) from 'Our Lord' about his beautiful white suit missing the cufflinks. That was hilarious! I vaguely remember hearing him go on about that suit back in the pre-perfect 70's. The question that comes to my mind is what the hell was going thru my mind (other than air) listening to such an inane talk? How did I justify giving my life to such a person? I think I probably laughed it off saying 'he pretends to be so ordinary!' Yeah, right! Eventually I woke up and realized, 'oi veh, he is not pretending! He actually IS ordinary!' It's extraordinary how ordinary he is! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 04:18:45 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Everyone Subject: mind infinite or not? Message: I remember GM saying once that the mind is 'almost' infinite, but not quite. Just found a quote by Koichi Tohei; "Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited" So, is mind infinite or not, do you think Would really welcome some comments. Thanks. ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 04:26:18 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: ex-mug Subject: What is 'Mind'? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: What is really 'mind', according to Mr Rawat's philosophy? Definitely not the usual sense. I would say in that case he states something like: the evil's power has no end, and if you're using your brain you're going to be creating some kind of hell for/around you. You'de better rely on 'grace', do nothing, and see what manifests. Some kind of home made indian-like BS philosophy. You can live like this. See what it does! I've tried for more than 2 decades. Mr Rawat has tried too, he should remold his philosophy! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 08:12:22 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: I remember GM saying once that the mind is 'almost' infinite, but not quite. Just found a quote by Koichi Tohei; 'Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited' So, is mind infinite or not, do you think Would really welcome some comments. Thanks. ex-mug ex-mug: The phrase I recall is, "the Knowledge is infinite, and the mind is boundless," or something like that. This sounds very much like Mr. Ex's description of MJs philosophy. The Christian Scientists (which is the denomination that I grew up in) believe in two "minds," the Divine Mind and Mortal Mind. The first is infinite while the second is not. MJs description of "mind" sounded to me a lot like Mary Baker Eddy's description of "Mortal Mind," whose primary power resides in something she called "animal magnetism." I don't think she was referring to George Cluny, though... at least, not directly. Another term she used was "agressive mental suggestion." I'm not sure whether you can say that MJs conception of mind is "homegrown" or whether it derives from the Rhadasoami tradition. Surely someone knows more about Indian religious doctrine than I? Sir David...? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 09:08:52 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: mind redefine (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: Like in most of cults I guess, m is redefining reality. One of his ways to achieve this is to give a new meaning to commonly used words. Like mind but also heart feeling real/reality inside love ....... Could be interesting to list all these words. Even though m claim he is not offering any philosophy, he does in fact, using an other language. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 10:38:01 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: Hi Scott Thanks for your description of the 2 types of mind. This is helpful. ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 10:55:02 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: What is 'Mind'? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: What is really 'mind', according to Mr Rawat's philosophy? Definitely not the usual sense. I would say in that case he states something like: the evil's power has no end, and if you're using your brain you're going to be creating some kind of hell for/around you. You'de better rely on 'grace', do nothing, and see what manifests. Some kind of home made indian-like BS philosophy. You can live like this. See what it does! I've tried for more than 2 decades. Mr Rawat has tried too, he should remold his philosophy! Hi Mr Ex Yeah, I tried relying on 'grace' for a long time also, trying not to think (impossible) and yet having to work 'in the world'. Man, the number of jobs i lost was not surprising - In the end, I figured it was ok to use my brain - had to in order to survive. GM never did explain much in detail - just left a lot to our imaginations. Like he never gave a plausible definition of 'mind', if he did I must have missed it, (I don't think he did actually!)anyone? Rather, I think GM created a communication system in the 70's that verbally was akin to one of the present day cheap voice-recognition programs for the PC or MAC - you know, only recognises about 50 words, and then interprets most of them incorrectly :-) A bit like being in the ashram in the 70's - Most people only used the same 50 words amongst themselves (perhaps this was out of respect for the Indian Mahatmas, who only knew about 10 words between them). Anyhow, this verbal system was used by ashram premies as both a weapon and a defense. 'If someone did not like you 'You are in your EGO, remember HOLYNAME! Get out of your MIND! etc etc etc.... HEAVY DUTY SHIT!!!!! GM was responsible for this. He claims it was the premies' fault. By doing this he is showing himself to be very ireesponsible, because he was the head of the whole thing. The buck stopped with him. If he still blaims everyone else for anything that goes (in his mind) wrong, then he is as irresponsible as he always was. all the best ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 11:15:53 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: In my obviously deluded opinion, a perfect spiritual master should give more of an explanation of what's happening. Other than simply 'the mind' is 'the enemy'. Although I realize I am remembering his use of the word from the 70's/ early 80's . Apparently that was when the perfect master was not quite as perfect as he is now, and he said things which he should not be held to. Another question though is, has M ever experienced mind? After all, he rec'd knowledge when he was a mere child of 6 or 7 right? And he 'realized' it very soon after that with apparently no trouble at all. If the extent of his problems with 'mind' are trying to wear a beautiful white suit and getting hung up on matching cuff links with it (as described in Jim's quote below in a thread perhaps now lost?) then really what does he know about what any of us have to go through? This is why I have no interest in following a guru or spiritual master. They present themselves as superheros, gods, larger than life figures, in other words people who are not really people. So, if they are not really 'human', what can they teach me about being 'human'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 11:45:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: ex-mug Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: Hi Scott Thanks for your description of the 2 types of mind. This is helpful. ex-mug ex-mug: Thanks. I recall having posed a question along these lines to a Mahatma in the Seattle area. I think it may have been Charanand. I was feeling especially confused about the necessity to suppress thinking, and may have been a bit rebellious. Anyway, the mahat's response was that: "Well, Maharaj Ji's mind is infinite, of course." I recall thinking that this wasn't really much help to me. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:28:10 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: ex-mug Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: I remember GM saying once that the mind is 'almost' infinite, but not quite. Just found a quote by Koichi Tohei; 'Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited' So, is mind infinite or not, do you think Would really welcome some comments. Thanks. ex-mug Dear Ex-Mug, In the Buddhist tradition, the "mind" is how they refer to what GMJ describes as the "Word", in other words the geneative/sustaining power of creation. It sounds like your quote is from a Japanese person, who probably has a Buddhist background, so perhaps this is the context in which it should be read. And further, in Buddhism the thoughts are what come from the "brain" and this is what M refers to as "mind". So it's probably a matter of semantics in this case. BTW, in Buddhism, thoughts aren't necessarily considered evil and to be done away with, as M prescribes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:36:40 (EST)
Poster: StephenB Email: To: ex-mug Subject: What is Abuse? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: You have described the situation as I found it in DLM and the Ashrams. I have spent a number of years trying to understand why I was attracted to such a situation. I introduced a number of freinds to the DLM and none of them were the slight bit interested. I sucked it up like an idiot! It felt farmiliar, and the concept that I was to have discovered"the perfect master" before anybody else was just too seductive. Why was I so enthralled? Some of it has to do with my history, growing up in an alcoholic home, used to the mental abuse and rigidity, it all felt so farmiliar. Luckily for me there was no transforming experience and I was left to live life as we all must, as an ordinary human. Good Wishes to all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 14:10:41 (EST)
Poster: David of Kiss Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Joy Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: The most ridiculious thing I ever heard Maharaji say was in an initiator program when the Lord sayeth, "Every time you think you kick Maharaji in the teeth." Trying to create a seperate identity and calling one the mind and another, knowledge is bound to fail. That seperation Maharaji tried to conceptionalise was an illusion. It never existed. I think it was all based on Hindu theory. The Hindu theory that the physical world is an illusion. One day, Maharaji will be venting his anger on a premie and the premie will turn around and punch Maharaji in the mouth. (I am amazed that this hasn't happened already). And then the premie can say to Maharaji, "That's no illusion brother!" Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 19:20:00 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: StephenB Subject: Re: What is Abuse? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: You have described the situation as I found it in DLM and the Ashrams. I have spent a number of years trying to understand why I was attracted to such a situation. I introduced a number of freinds to the DLM and none of them were the slight bit interested. I sucked it up like an idiot! It felt farmiliar, and the concept that I was to have discovered'the perfect master' before anybody else was just too seductive. Why was I so enthralled? Some of it has to do with my history, growing up in an alcoholic home, used to the mental abuse and rigidity, it all felt so farmiliar. Luckily for me there was no transforming experience and I was left to live life as we all must, as an ordinary human. Good Wishes to all. Stephen, so true. My father also was an alcoholic, although we in the family were so co-dependent that we didn't even see it. I think a lot of premies, especially ashram premies, came from dysfunctional families and were LOOKING for a family in DLM and the ashram. I didn't recognize a lot of the abuse I was receiving because I was used to making excuses for it in my own family, and so it was easy in the ashram/DLM family to do the same thing. And when Maharaji was abusive, which he often was, I just accepted that too. I learned not to expect anything. It was like I wasn't deserving of anything. It was only after I decided I DESERVED better that Maharaji and the crap he was serving up that I started to get out of it. I think a lot of it had to do with self-esteem. I mean just LOOK at a lot of the people who were in the ashram. A lot of dysfunction. Basically nice people, and I liked a lot of them very much, but there wasn't much self esteem there. And a lot of the attitude that they deserved the abuse and were just so lucky M allowed them to stay there being abused. A very sick situation. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 21:20:27 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: The greatest Magician? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: Like in most of cults I guess, m is redefining reality. One of his ways to achieve this is to give a new meaning to commonly used words. Like mind but also heart feeling real/reality inside love ....... Could be interesting to list all these words. Even though m claim he is not offering any philosophy, he does in fact, using an other language. Yes I agree. I think a lot comes down to language. As well as presenting the possibility of new meanings for already existing words, certainly at first, one is struck dumb with an astonishing inability to grasp what Maharaji is talking about. Sometimes this is felt as a revelation! It is very disorienting to find oneself "all at sea" in an environment where the meaning of usually familiar words, or their interpretation is so vague. All the more so because of the great emphatic and urgent tone upon which Maharaji's words throng into your innocent ears, suggesting finger waggingly that you are missing something of great import. Words that in themselves were once nice familiar little friends have now sprouted demonic faces and mock you nightmarishly for being unable to grasp their meaning. Your acute awareness of your own hellish listening problem (after all, everybody else seem very pleased with the whole thing) tempts the possibility that you may need to abandon your usual modus operandi and embark upon the proposed course of mind-bashing with an attitude of faith. Obviously you are ill-equipped to recognise this wisdom as yet, but if you continue to entrust and commit to the programme or rather, to yourself (of course you understand what I mean) you will learn the secret of "the feeling behind the words". The momentum and "attitude" you gain in the ensuing months as a precious Aspirant-seedling will hopefully suffice that, when your own motors are finally ignited (by the grace of the Masters' sparkling and holy tinder) you will not come to a spluttering halt and your early attempts at uplifting youself into succesfull spiritual trajectory will not be defeated by gravity. I always sensed that a lot of the upliftment after a program was accountable to the enormous sensation of relief at being back to a familiar reality as one walked out of the doors, as it were. Of course this reality is one we had not entirely come to terms with and thus were quite keen to escape given the experience of another one, supposedly more desirable. Sure, our minds were blown away. The tricks of a Fakir seem so impressive at first but then..so so what if you can poke a sword through your cheek or stand on one leg for a year? ...and how does Firewalking really serve anyone than to make people think they are experiencing something out of the ordinary for a mo' and to give the seminar leader a job. Is it the only thing that feels good in life? Does Knowledge make you feel good all the time? OK so you lost your job again to go to a programme and the thrills wearing off..What? You never had a job? Aha OK. Drug dealing for money..I see..fine..Your kids..never see them. Oh dear. Are they inspired by your example to be a premie? No? Why on earth not I wonder. If premies were generally more loving, sincere or just plain sensible..people might trust Maharaji more. As it is, most of those people I know who today remain practicing premies, have over the years become very out of touch with reality and gripped with a smelly obsession. Unlike those who have drifted away who are generally more stable and happy. When these premies feet do touch briefly the ground it is usually to do no particularly conscious, charitable or responsible act but usually to grub around in a most anti-social and inconsiderate manner. Such behaviour seems all the more a vulgar reflection upon their leader who apparently detains his admirers in another world from which they take leave only long enough to do some hasty selfish thing. Then they are gone back before anyone can point out the mess they have left. How can we not question the integrity or sanity of people who say one thing and do another? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 23:54:41 (EST)
Poster: ugh, dust at his lotus Email: bb To: Anon Subject: feet......... (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: you are great with words anon. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 11:32:32 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: -------- Subject: Re: What is Abuse? (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message: Feb 23, 1998 at 12:36:40 (EST) [-- snip! --] I introduced a number of freinds to the DLM and none of them were the slight bit interested. I sucked it up like an idiot! It felt farmiliar, and the concept that I was to have discovered'the perfect master' before anybody else was just too seductive. Why was I so enthralled? Some of it has to do with my history, growing up in an alcoholic home, used to the mental abuse and rigidity, it all felt so farmiliar. Luckily for me there was no transforming experience and I was left to live life as we all must, as an ordinary human. [-- snip! --] Tue Feb 24 11:19:44 EST 1998 Heh. That, and don't forget -- the path ahead of us was paved with yesterday's dupes (converts, marks, shills -- those who'd been fleeced already). Like this woman Julia who sang "Spread This Knowledge". The voice. The tone -- the longing there. It's very seductive. And we didn't have the benefit of several key things that are presently in place: the self-help movement (children of alcoholics and codependents come to mind here); we didn't have the global internet (the singlemost eye-opener for me, personally). Even M didn't have access to ubiquitous, cheap video recording/playback technology until relatively recently. The age was ripe for M to do what he did. Now, it's not. Today, people are worlds smarter, and he's running out of tricks to play on them. Look at the dilapidated condition of today's premie communities! What a run down piece of excrement! (pardon my language). There isn't a respectable premie community anymore, to speak of. I'm rambling. :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 11:56:07 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: -------- Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: The way I was interpreting M (perhaps too generously to him at this point) was that mind was not the listener, but the speaker, of internal dialogue. Period. Lack of mind (e.g. meditation, the state of bliss) was when the internal dialogue was either stilled (impossible) or ignored (the "hook" and its proper evasion). Those still have some validity, from what I can tell. The trick is to cut yourself plenty of slack and not judge your meditation; for in every instant where you're not letting the "hook" get ya (don't care, chatter if you want to, Mind old chum) -- in that moment, if you can simultaneously know you are having inner peace, and not do anything about it (including announcing the fact to yourself!) you're well on your way. I could hit the spot consistently for 30 second bursts, maybe 2 or 3 instances thereof in a 15 minute session. A lot of energy is released back into the well-being during those bursts of quietude or detachment from the inner chatterer. I always felt a little less a victim of my own constant inner chatter after such a session; and primarily I stopped tormenting myself with the constant negative inner criticisms -- it seemed for a moment, I was grounded in something more helpful and happy, and I did not want for more. That was also a secret of happiness -- to not want more; to say "I have enough and I am enough, in this moment." Which is to say, to repeat a slogan (can you say "chanting"? I knew you could!) I believe I'll live out my life reprogramming myself with unending isms and slogans. But I won't have quite as much a smarmy feeling smug self-secure that I have THE answer and you DON'T. Mine is better. :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Feb 24, 1998 at 12:08:02 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: -------- Subject: Re: mind infinite or not? Message: The way I was interpreting M (perhaps too generously to him at this point) was that mind was not the listener, but the speaker, of internal dialogue. Period. Lack of mind (e.g. meditation, the state of bliss) was when the internal dialogue was either stilled (impossible) or ignored (the 'hook' and its proper evasion). Those still have some validity, from what I can tell. The trick is to cut yourself plenty of slack and not judge your meditation; for in every instant where you're not letting the 'hook' get ya (don't care, chatter if you want to, Mind old chum) -- in that moment, if you can simultaneously know you are having inner peace, and not do anything about it (including announcing the fact to yourself!) you're well on your way. I could hit the spot consistently for 30 second bursts, maybe 2 or 3 instances thereof in a 15 minute session. A lot of energy is released back into the well-being during those bursts of quietude or detachment from the inner chatterer. I always felt a little less a victim of my own constant inner chatter after such a session; and primarily I stopped tormenting myself with the constant negative inner criticisms -- it seemed for a moment, I was grounded in something more helpful and happy, and I did not want for more. That was also a secret of happiness -- to not want more; to say 'I have enough and I am enough, in this moment.' Which is to say, to repeat a slogan (can you say 'chanting'? I knew you could!) I believe I'll live out my life reprogramming myself with unending isms and slogans. But I won't have quite as much a smarmy feeling smug self-secure that I have THE answer and you DON'T. Mine is better. :) But here's the rub -- I forget this part so easily -- this business of "mind/no mind/I like mind/I don't like mind/jai sat chit anand" etc. -- it is fine. There's nothing wrong with it; it's a plaything, a toy to keep idle minds (heh) busy. It's like knitting; it has no value, except what the individual accords it. So fine. The problem comes (if it's a problem to you) when a particular point of view -- that is not one's own -- is foisted on one, in such a way, that it creates a schism of sorts, in the self. Maybe metaphysics doesn't "naturally" interest you; but here's Maharaji (or Yogi Bad-Anand, or Whoever) telling you that you MUST think about it, and His way, and NOW. That's the part that's destructive. It is a far cry from "take what you like and leave the rest" which is a sincere slogan used in the self-help movement. That's one of the saving graces and a mark of a mature and interested -- program. Maharaji appropriated it, and that's one of the reasons I didn't catch on sooner to the game. He was very good at saying "take what you like and leave the rest" -- but without really giving the tools to take, and the tools to leave. I think. :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 07:42:59 (EST)
Poster: -------- Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: -------- Subject: TEST MESSAGE please disregard (Re: mind infinite or not?) Message:
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Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 01:01:53 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Sir David Subject: Re: bit more on altruism... Message: I think a lot of what you quoted there is true. Certainly our European monarchies began as barbaric warlords who settled down and lived off the fat of the land, allowing the peasants to do all the work. I think there's two sorts of evolution we're talking about here. One is evolution of a species through natural selection and the other type is the evolution of a society. As a species we are no more evolved than the hunter gatherers who lived 10,000 years ago, at the end of the ice age. As a society of individuals we have evolved and grown tremendously. I like to look at tribal groups who up until recently, still lived the hunter gatherer lifestyle. The Australian Aboriginies and the South American Indians in the forests are a good example. When first encountered by 'modern man' they were living in small tribal groups and using stone-age tools, much the same as our ice-age ancestors. And yet in one generation they have adapted to and fully comprehended modern western society. Surely this would illustrate that Man as a species is pretty static in evolutionary terms. Indeed, noticable evolutionary changes would only appear over hundreds of thousands of years. However, the mental, emotional and intallectual capacity of this hunter gatherer we call Man is quite staggering. Our ability to survive and adapt is phenominal. However I also think it's completely natural that the ape that out-evolved its fellow primates would have this capacity and would need it to propogate throughout the globe. Your quoted example of the thieves becoming more socially aware is very interesting. And true. But beyond the logic of that there is also the overall nature of Man, that evolved over millions of years. And that nature is, I believe, altruistic. Nigel, SD, and all: Several schools of thought are now converging on the basic idea of the evolution of 'rule systems.' Viktor Vanberg is sort of the Public Choice point man on that. There is also a group of 'human ecologists' that have very similar ideas, and Tom Dietz is the guy I know from that group. As for as I can tell, the two groups are not connected, and don't talk to one another much. The basic idea, however, is that man's evolution is no longer chiefly genetic, but cultural. Vanberg and the Public Choicers take it to the point of proposing 'competitive federalism' in which different populations live under different rule systems and compete with one another to determine an 'optimum' set or family of rules. For instance, some with more emphasis on social welfare and others with more emphasis on markets. People express preferences by moving from one to another. There are obvious problems with this. Suppose everyone decided to move to California all at once? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 00:58:16 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: How to expire the cotton pickin' links in IE Message: Katie, Jim, and all: Here is the procedure for retiring the old links in IE 3. Under the 'view' menu item click 'options' and then click the 'navigation' tab. Then click a button that's labeled 'clear history.' The next time you visit the page all of the hyperlinks will be in the 'unvisited' color. -Scott Thank you Scott. You are a genius. I have Netscape at the office, which is easy to clear, but IE 3 at home, and I have been unable to figure out how to expire the links. Now I know. Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 00:03:30 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: The lessons are everywhere Message: Outstanding. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 17:33:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: Everyone Subject: Just a queastion, not a thread Message: My browser has apparently lost the capacity to desrciminate between posts I've read and those I haven't. They used to be fifferent colors, but since Paradise went down last time everything stays the same. Also, when I go to the forum page sometimes all I get is the single 'forum reset' post. When I refresh I either get the rest of the posts or I get nothing. Is anyone else having these kinds of problems, or is it just me? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 20:56:44 (EST)
Poster: lg Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: technical difficulties (Re: Just a queastion, not a thread) Message: My browser has apparently lost the capacity to desrciminate between posts I've read and those I haven't. They used to be fifferent colors, but since Paradise went down last time everything stays the same. Also, when I go to the forum page sometimes all I get is the single 'forum reset' post. When I refresh I either get the rest of the posts or I get nothing. Is anyone else having these kinds of problems, or is it just me? -Scott My browser too is behaving strangely. All posts are the same color. Read or not read. There is no difference. It's difficult to keep track on the posts I have read. I can help with one of your questions, anyway. All your posts are marked with the 'visited link' color (usually a dark purple in Netscape) because Paradise thinks that you have already visited them. This is because the forum identifies posts by number rather than content, and it thinks you have already read Post #1, for example, because you read it in the previous forum. The 'unvisited link' color is blue. To change the problem in Netscape, go to OPTIONS on the toolbar, then choose 'General Preferences' and hit 'expire all links'. Noth that this will expire all your links on other sites as well - usually not much of a problem. It's just a color change. I'm not sure what to do in Explorer (does anyone know?), but suspect it is similar. Scott, I think your second problem is because you are retrieving a cached (earlier) version of the forum for some reason. Brian will know more. Thanks Katie for your suggestions. I changed the color of the visited links, and the new posts are still showing up with that same color. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 22:30:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: lg Subject: Re: technical difficulties (Re: Just a queastion, not a thread) Message: Dear lg - Actually, changing the color won't help. You need to make all your visited links expire. Paradise just assumes that these posts are the same post that were on the last forum, and it marks them all as 'visited'. If you are using Netscape, 'expire links' should be under Options (on toolbar), then General Preferences, then 'Appearances', then 'Link Styles'. Again, I'm not sure about Explorer - does anyone else know? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 22:34:39 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Brian Subject: Re: Just a queastion, not a thread Message: I suppose I could have supplied the email address in that last post. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 00:06:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Just a que[s]tion, not a thread (Re: Just a queastion, not a thread) Message: Hi: I am using IE 3.02. I tried emptying the cache but that didn't help. Have no idea how to expire the links. The page now seems to be loading OK at least. I just can't tell which links I've read. -Scott Dear Scott - sorry I cannot help you with Internet Explorer! I assume the advice for Netscape didn't help at all. Have you tried looking in Help under Links for advice? (I use some other Microsoft programs although not Explorer, and the help is usually OK). My best guess as why the forum would not load before is that you were having trouble connecting to it and Explorer used the cached version instead. Emptying the cache won't help with the links, though. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 15:30:59 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How's bout a little '71? Message: Enough Jim, these quotes are killing me... So, how does he define his role now? I know he does not use the word 'guru'. Yet, he is essential, right?, for the revelation of the Knowledge, right? So, does he explain how that works, or why he is important? Or exactly what his role is? The old stuff is good for a laugh, but I think more current quotes would be good too. Not that I want to be the one to go out and gather them. Actually, I think this whole subject is really beneath us. the idea of worshipping a guru just strikes me as so profoundly stupid. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 12:47:40 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Rick Subject: Re: AITTA Message: was it Joe Wischer? Didn't he die, heart attack or something? and, again my memory may be way off, but it seems I heard he had left M before he died. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Rick Subject: Re: AITTA & history (Re: AITTA) Message: Still the same kind of business for EV Travel & BestWay. Plenty of agents, not paid .... premies doing 'service' being understood that their profits go 'directly' to maharaji.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 12:00:00 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Response to A Premie and Request Message: 'A Premie' who apparently is an individual distinct from Dan, and Miss Y, and I have had an ongoing discussion about A Premie's advanced ability to know what other people do and do not 'understand, or have understood,' despite the fact that he or she doesn't know those people and likely has never even met them. Since A Premie kept explaining to me that I only left the Maharaji cult because I 'didn't get it' and 'misunderstood the message' I said he or she had no basis on which to say that, not being me, and it was logically possible that I understood quite well, reached the supposed 'destination,' and rejected it anyway. Anyhow, the latest post from this premie, now in the archives, said the following: 'I believe I am in a position to say some things with knowledge. I say that based on my own personal experience with the subject matter.' Comment: I don't believe I ever said A Premie didn't have experience with knowledge, what A Premie DOESN'T have experience with is ME. That is the 'subject matter,': MY UNDERSTANDING. A Premie has no experience with that and can't. To make a conclusive statement about my understanding of anything, either now or in the past, is the height of spiritual condescension, not an unusual quality among premies in my experience, who want to explain away the possibility that people experienced Maharaji and what he has to offer and rejected it anyway. You see, in A Premie's world, logic has nothing to do with this discussion. To A Premie, the fact that someone left and rejected Maharaji is a priori proof that one didn't understand the message and didn't 'reach the destination.' If you believe that, A Premie, fine, I disagree, but that is based on faith and belief, not on logic and rational discussion. I also feel compelled to make one other comment about a post A Premie directed at Jim. In that post, A Premie made an extremely bigoted and homophobic comment as a sarcastic joke directed at Jim. It was ungracious, rude, bigoted and the height of bad taste in my opinion. I won't repeat it, but I was offended. I also wonder where A Premie picked up that kind of stuff. I was told by Maharaji's cook, Dennis Murphy (anyone know what happened to him?) that Maharaji was known for making homophobic jokes and for making fun of gay and lesbian people. I do hope Maharaji has 'evolved' out of that, as I know he has gay people who work close to him. And OP said he actually encouraged someone on his staff to come out of the closet. I hope that's true. But I wondered if that's where A Premie picked up such vulgar language. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 13:00:48 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Response to A Premie and Request Message: this is off the subject of your post, but I believe it was in that same conversation with A Premie that you stated that a number of well known initiators, like Bill Patterson, Barabara Kolodney, had left M. I am curious as to how you know that. I know their names are not in our ex premie white pages. Did you hear from them personally or was it through the grape vine? (and why is it called a 'grape' vine anyway?) As always your brother in the never ending search for 'the truth' John Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 19:17:44 (EST)
Poster: A premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Response to A Premie and Request Message: 'A Premie' who apparently is an individual distinct from Dan, and Miss Y, and I have had an ongoing discussion about A Premie's advanced ability to know what other people do and do not 'understand, or have understood,' despite the fact that he or she doesn't know those people and likely has never even met them. Since A Premie kept explaining to me that I only left the Maharaji cult because I 'didn't get it' and 'misunderstood the message' I said he or she had no basis on which to say that, not being me, and it was logically possible that I understood quite well, reached the supposed 'destination,' and rejected it anyway. Anyhow, the latest post from this premie, now in the archives, said the following: 'I believe I am in a position to say some things with knowledge. I say that based on my own personal experience with the subject matter.' Comment: I don't believe I ever said A Premie didn't have experience with knowledge, what A Premie DOESN'T have experience with is ME. That is the 'subject matter,': MY UNDERSTANDING. A Premie has no experience with that and can't. To make a conclusive statement about my understanding of anything, either now or in the past, is the height of spiritual condescension, not an unusual quality among premies in my experience, who want to explain away the possibility that people experienced Maharaji and what he has to offer and rejected it anyway. You see, in A Premie's world, logic has nothing to do with this discussion. To A Premie, the fact that someone left and rejected Maharaji is a priori proof that one didn't understand the message and didn't 'reach the destination.' If you believe that, A Premie, fine, I disagree, but that is based on faith and belief, not on logic and rational discussion. I also feel compelled to make one other comment about a post A Premie directed at Jim. In that post, A Premie made an extremely bigoted and homophobic comment as a sarcastic joke directed at Jim. It was ungracious, rude, bigoted and the height of bad taste in my opinion. I won't repeat it, but I was offended. I also wonder where A Premie picked up that kind of stuff. I was told by Maharaji's cook, Dennis Murphy (anyone know what happened to him?) that Maharaji was known for making homophobic jokes and for making fun of gay and lesbian people. I do hope Maharaji has 'evolved' out of that, as I know he has gay people who work close to him. And OP said he actually encouraged someone on his staff to come out of the closet. I hope that's true. But I wondered if that's where A Premie picked up such vulgar language. JW I get tired of hearing your standard response parrotted every time I bring up my point. (i.e paraphrasing..., 'You have no right to comment on MY experience 'cause I'm so special and you have no way of knowing what I've gone through' (sigh)). The point that I made in my post about the destination, I'll reiterate for those who didn't see it: Two people looking for the same destination based on common instructions. One person finds it, the other doesn't. The one who doesn't find it claims the destination must not exist. The one who finds it tries to explain the reality of the destination but the other will have no part of it. My editorial point: the rejection of the possibility of the destination being real highlights the person's closed-mindedness, and even arrogance to think there's no way they could have misunderstood the directions. Joe you claim you found the same destination as I, and rejected it. I say, based on your description, that you came no where NEAR the same destination that I found. Instead I suggest you may have missed a turn or two along the way, and then chose to give up the journey. Why can't you admit that possibility? Why belly-ache about how you were ripped off when you didn't, for whatever reason, even complete the journey. 'Cause Joe, you and I are talking about two completely different places. About your homophobia red-herring. You carry the hurt and offended oppressed minority cross too far. There was nothing homophobic at all about what I said. Jim painted a hypothetical, and I might add offensive, sexual what-if scenario concerning Maharaji, and I painted one concerning him. Are you guys so sensitive that you find mere mention of your sexual preference by a heterosexual in other than loving, caring terms to be gay-bashing? Get real Joe, being proud doesn't mean you have to be anal (no pun intended). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 19:47:39 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Response to A Premie and Request Message: Your argument would make perfect sense if you did indeed make it to a destination that Joe and the rest of us now call imaginary. But I say you didn't. You never got close. See, Joe and I and all the other boys and girls here most likely know every bit as much as you do about what your experience of Knowledge is like. Sure, sure, we all had our own 'individual' experiences but that goes for everything. I could tell you that a sauna's hot, arrid and relaxing and -- know what? -- I'd be right. Your experience of a sauna ain't gonna be that different from mine, no matter how precious you want to get about it. Same thing with meditating on your breath, the sound in your head when you plug your ears, the 'taste' you experience when you stick your tongue up behind the roof of your mouth (which I was able to muster after a few years, I'm SO proud to say) and, what was the other one? Oh yeah, putting pressure on your eyelids. Premies and Maharaji can dance around all they want about just how much pressure to use, or whether one should listen to the right side only or, is it the feeling and the sound or just the sound of the breath? Brother, I've heard them all said at various times by those who, like you, claimed to really be steeped in the experience. You can't bullshit us, friend. We were one of you, once, too. So, I say you are far from being able to confidently say what the fuck you're experiencing. You're bullshitting. Now, if I was only 19 and had never dabbled in this mystique-drenched realm of Hinduism I might be extremely impressed. But, truly, been there, done that. You can't fool me. Get it? But, fair guy that I am, here's what I'm willing to offer you for argument's sake. I'll grant that it's POSSIBLE you're experiencing something truly divine when you suqeeze your eyes (or kiss his pudgy middle-aged feet). POSSIBLE, okay? Now, will you please be honest and concede that you may in fact be erroneously interpreting your own experience? No? Can't do it? Of course you can't. Just like a Christian can't entertain the possibility that he's prayed his way into some trap. Like the JWs (the other JWs)can't deal with their own confusing history of false alarms. Face it, bud, you're the one in mental jail and those, I'm afraid, are your cell-mates. Hare Krishna! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 20:42:57 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: A premie Subject: Re: Response to A Premie and Request Message: Tell us about your experience of knowledge, meditation, maharaji, and devotion. Most of us here spent years or decades pursuing the treasure. Most of us found it, I believe. It seems like the transformation for most ex-premies was in interpreting what happened. If I'm reading you correctly, you're claiming that we missed something because of our approach or intent. So what did you experience that was different from us? And what did you do differently than we did to experience it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 00:23:12 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: A premie Subject: Re: Response to A Premie and Request Message: Joe you said: My editorial point: the rejection of the possibility of the destination being real highlights the person's closed-mindedness, and even arrogance to think there's no way they could have misunderstood the directions. Joe you claim you found the same destination as I, and rejected it. I say, based on your description, that you came no where NEAR the same destination that I found. Instead I suggest you may have missed a turn or two along the way, and then chose to give up the journey. Why can't you admit that possibility? Why belly-ache about how you were ripped off when you didn't, for whatever reason, even complete the journey. 'Cause Joe, you and I are talking about two completely different places. That you explain away our differing accounts of the destination by alluding that I must be brainwashed, is not valid. You have nothing tangible to base that on because you don't know me from Adam. About your homophobia red-herring. You carry the hurt and offended oppressed minority cross too far. There was nothing homophobic at all about what I said. Jim painted a hypothetical, and I might add offensive, sexual what-if scenario concerning Maharaji, and I painted one concerning him. Are you guys so sensitive that you find mere mention of your sexual preference by a heterosexual in other than loving, caring terms to be gay-bashing? Get real Joe, being proud doesn't mean you have to be anal (no pun intended). First, if I promise to give you some money, will you please stop restating that very tired parable? I'll make it worth your while. Second, you are debating something I didn't say. I never rejected 'the possibility of the destination' so your statement about my 'close-mindedness' is misplaced. OKAY? I admit, and have always admitted, the possibility of the destination. I just said you have no way or knowing who has or who has not gotten there. That's it. I still have heard to reasons why you might have that ability when most other regular human beings can't do it. AND AGAIN, I admit I may have 'misunderstood the directions' but you also have to admit that maybe you did the same in staying with the Maharaji trip. GEEZ. And I don't even claim to have reached the destination, I just object that you don't admit the possibility when you can't know for sure. Talk about red herrings... Unless you have something new to say, perhaps we should move on. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 09:51:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: More history, repost (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: Joe, Your capsule history is, as they still say in Canada believe it or not, 'right on.' Thanks very much. But Joe, 'devotional catholic period'? My phrase. Don't you remember? Indeed, I registered it in Meme Central years ago. No big deal. Just for the record. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 10:40:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: More history, repost (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: The string of programs you mention in 77 were all 19 days apart, not 22, if I recall. The reason I remember is that Maharaji made a big deal out of it. It was kind of his sport, watching us try to keep our jobs and still take all this time off. In fact, next to our evil minds, which he relished teasing us about incessantly (after all, hadn't we 'fallen' for 'Mr. Mind' for the past year and a half or so?), Maharaji spent a lot of his satsang talking about how 'beautiful' it was that we could 'keep coming together' no matter what. It seemed as if he wanted to shake off any normal ties we'd begun making with 'the world' even though, as you say, he'd encouraged us to normalize in the first place. So now we had to put on our funny devotee hats again and tell our bosses that, yes, we were gurunoids first and foremost, all we cared about was Maharaji and, to prove that, we're ready to go deep into debt just to run in Maharaji's Nineteen Day Relay Race. Then, when we'd show up at the program, confused but a little excited that maybe something really cool was happening in 'Maharaji's World', Maharaji would congratulate us for making it again and would laugh at 'the world' which could never possibly understand our priorities. Of course, we couldn't really understand our priorities either. How were we to know, just afew months before, that all we really wanted to do was drop everything, again and again, every few weeks, to go hear Maharaji tell us about the next program? We didn't and that, dear brothers and sisters, was even further evidence that we'd lost touch with our hearts. Not only did Maharaji have the only real water to soothe our parched hearts, he alone could tell us how thirsty we really were. In our presumptive cockiness in 76, we'd begun to think we knew ourselves a bit. In 77 Maharaji reminded us that that's how the mind works. Just when you think you're beginning to know something, if it isn't what Maharaji tells you you know, you're getting tricked by the mind. All we could do, all that was left for us, was to stand frozen and ashamed under the warm shower of his all-forgiving love. Oh Big Brother, I have sinned! Maharaji started this extreme religiosity at the international directors conference he held in Essen, Germany, in the end of '76. I wasn't there but we all read the satsang afterwards. Even before we did, however, our national directors came home with new orders to plough the fields of devotion again. At Essen, Maharaji reminded everyone that the reason this was all happening was -- Guru Maharaj Ji. Like Mao's cultural revolution, this capricious and cynical about-face from the main man purged the party a bit. Well, only a bit. Everyone had the choice of either buckling back into humble, sheepish premiedom or not. It was simple for common grunts like me to fall back into line. I'd never really exercised my freedom that much anyway in '76 (I think I went to a disco one weekend night after satsang. And I went to see The Omen). It must have been harder for other premies who'd had serivce that allowed or required them to accept their plain, old personalities and live like they were actually individuals and not just little drops of mercy. This certainly was a period when the humble, steadfast devotee could smirk a bit at those who'd ventured out, however tentatively, on their own. We were all chastised for having minds but the hardcore devotees could at least tell themselves that, compared to others, (like those who'd left the ashram), they had held true. One thing was certain: we could never trust ourselves again. Oh Big Brother, I have sinned! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 15:58:17 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: More history, repost (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: Jim: This sounds horrendous. I missed it by a hair's breadth. Just barely got out in '76. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 22:48:53 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Historical recollections (repost) & 80s-90s? (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: Joe, Why not just make shit up? All the premies think we do that anyways and no one else gives a damn. I KNOW the textbook business is wrong but, face it, it's not too sexy, is it? I say we finally tell the story of Maharaji's meeting with Nixon. The world needs to know what was really on that missing tape and why he (Nixon, unfortunately) resigned. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 00:50:19 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: CD Subject: Re: Historical recollections (repost) & 80s-90s? (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: I was at a program at the Miami Convention Center sometime in the 80s that had a dinner for everybody one night. This included 2 bottles of wine per table of 8 and a nice mix of about 6000 people sitting in a dimly lit decorated room enjoying a meal while a small string group played. Afterwards I went to a party in a disco that some premies had rented. A nice memorable evening though I don't remember much besides the French speaking Canadians I shared my table with at the dinner. It was one of those events where the hotel didn't have a room for me when I arrived but some friends gave me a room overlooking the ocean because it didn't have air conditioning. Yes funny things did happen. Don't get me going - g! Regards, CD Just curious, CD. Do you know what year that was? And I think I heard someone mention going to a birthday party program where that happened, but I don't know if you are talking about the same one. I do recall a birthday program in 1981 where there was some sort of lunch, and birthday cake, but certainly no alcohol. At that birthday party, we presented Guru Maharaj Ji with a luxury Citroen to add to his collectin of luxury cars. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 01:51:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: JW & ex-premie Subject: Re: Some historical recollections (Miami and DECA) (Re: Historical recollections (repost)) Message: Dear Ex-premie (and JW) Thanks for your post. I never lived in Miami, but quite a few of my friends from DC moved to Miami to be nearer Guru Maharaji in the late seventies (many of them are still living there, too). This was after I had left GMJ's organization. I am not sure if these people were enabled to move to Miami because they got work on the plane, or they moved to Miami and then got work with DECA. Anyway, for a while I thought ALL the premies were going to move to Miami to be with Guru Maharaji. It seemed like all the programs were in Miami for a while too (is that right JW?). My two best friends from junior high, who I'd received Knowledge with, both moved to Miami with their husbands. I think both of their husbands worked on the plane - they were both general contractors or something like that. Anyway, one of my friends worked on the airline seat project. I'm not sure whether it was for Guru Maharaji's plane or for the paying clients. I think she thought it was for Maharaji's plane. Anyway, she didn't get paid - she said some parts of the project was unskilled ' service' that anyone could do on a drop-in basis. Since she had small kids, she didn't work a regular job, so she used to drop by and do 'service'. She glued the pads on seats and I think she cut out pieces of fabric or sewed them together. I think (and maybe someone can confirm this) that it was really hard to find direct service to do when you were married with children to take care of and had no money to contribute. So I can understand why people would WANT to do things like glue airplane seats together without pay, since the need to do service was emphasized so much as a pre-requisite to really experiencing Knowledge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 07:20:00 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset Message: Okay, the Forum's been reset. Happened early this time since Paradise lost the message index again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |