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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
6 |
From:
Feb 13, 1998 |
To:
Feb 20, 1998 |
Page:
4
Of:
5 |
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Nigel -:- A very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 06:26:11 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 09:34:28 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: A very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:54:55 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A very English incident -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:21:02 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: A very English incident -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:16:59 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: A very English incident -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:38:17 (EST)
Sir David -:- Talking of suicide -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:03:18 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Talking of suicide -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:25:27 (EST)
___former lovers can be a -:- problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:07:24 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:28:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Talking of suicide -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:02:52 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:35:39 (EST)
___I am -:- the god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 08:13:51 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:54:23 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:29:50 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 18:38:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:06:18 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:17:47 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:19:52 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:26:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:11:57 (EST)
___thier logic ties me up -:- and rapes me. a do do do, a da da da -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 22:26:02 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:40:07 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: problem sometimes -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:32:32 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:37:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Talking of suicide -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:18:04 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: the god you have been praying to -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:58:28 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Talking of suicide -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:15:00 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Talking of suicide -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 05:29:31 (EST)
Anon -:- Radhasoami connection -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:55:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 10:32:41 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:19:36 (EST)
___succession -:- confession -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:48:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:35:51 (EST)
Anon -:- Search Engines -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:28:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Search Engines -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:08:43 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Search Engines -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:47:41 (EST)
Jim -:- A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:31:07 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:32:09 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:39:47 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:36:45 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:47:05 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:15:00 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:09:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:27:13 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:31:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:39:40 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:19:54 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:50:53 (EST)
___elena -:- Selena -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 00:32:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:48:38 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:51:42 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:40:11 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 16:15:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 17:03:47 (EST)
___david -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:14 (EST)
___david -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:43:34 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:16:04 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:28:16 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:21:34 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:39:35 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:46:25 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Valentine to My Lord -:- Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 18:18:51 (EST)
Mr Ex -:- Maharaji's long expected book! -:- Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 04:18:39 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji's long expected book! -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 03:35:05 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Maharaji's long expected book! -:- Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 05:39:15 (EST)
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 06:26:11 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: A very English incident
Message:
It was a full house in satsang one night with about fifteen people crowded into an average sized living room. All were premies except one - a girl who had been brought along by her premie friend, possibly a work-colleague. It was her very first satsang but she sat attentively throughout, and -who knows? - may have been having some sort of 'experience'.
But then it was time for Arti. Normally it would be unthinkable to sing our devotional anthem if strangers were present, but for some inexplicable reason, we sang it that night - the long version. To make matters worse this newcomer happened to be sitting right in front of the altar, and one of the veteran premies, who certainly should have known better, took the Arti tray and handed it to her.
Note for newer premies: an Arti tray was a decorated plate, or sometimes metal dish (Indian brass designs were very popular, I remember). In the middle of the plate, surrounded by flower petals, would be a small lighted candle.
The girl took the Arti tray with a look of bafflement, and sat there confused as we launched into the song.
Seeing the poor girl's confusion this veteran premie (let's call him 'Kevin' to spare any blushes) leaned over and hissed in her ear. 'Waft it, waft it...' he urged, helpfully, miming the appropriate wafting technique with his hands. So the girl wafted...
I was sat on the other side of her and could see her face clearly. It was a picture of abject misery and distress as she waved this wretched brass plate from side to side for the duration of the song. I seem to remember Arti had about nine or ten verses, and if you sang it slowly it seemed to last for an eternity. The premie girl who had brought this friend along just sat head down, looking away, writhing in embarrassment.
Of course the unfortunate first-timer should have just said 'no', point blank - and as soon as the situation became personally embarrassing should have blown out the candle and walked out. They say that 'not causing a scene' is supposed to be a typically British characteristic, but I'm not so sure. I think there is something very powerful in our desire to comply with the requirements of whatever social situation we find ourselves in. It is like when you see a stage hypnotist achieving 100% compliance from his unfortunate volunteers when they are required to make fools of themselves in front of an audience of strangers. Very often the hypnotist doesn't even go through the charade of putting his volunteers 'into a trance'. They'll obey his instructions to the letter for the simple reason that they would feel even greater discomfort in not complying. Social influence can be a very powerful thing, and I wonder whether it might even be part of the glue that holds M's operation together.
But securing a life commitment from somebody is not the same as embarrassing them on stage for five minutes, and the social conformity pressure has to operate at a more subtle level. The person has to be eased in gently. No doubt had the situation been handled differently the girl would in time - maybe only a few weeks, even - have welcomed the opportunity to develop a perfect devotional wafting technique further, would have regarded the task as a privilege, even.
But thanks to Kevin's misguided burst of enthuisasm, the visitor was never seen again - so in a way you could say that that story has a happy ending, at least.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 09:34:28 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
It's fortunate that they didn't sing the Hindi version. She might have concluded that they were singing to her, launching a new religious movement.
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:54:55 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
I admit that the holy water thing seemed utterly ridiculious and incomprehensible to me. That and the passing of one's hands through the candle flames of the arti tray.
And yet I used to practise these rituals every night because everybody else did and it would be unseemly not to do so. How did you take your divine, holy water?
Did you eargerly drink it down or politely dab it on your forehead. There were some premies who used to rub it into their hair, possibly as an insurance against future balding.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:21:02 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
I remember my first Arti. I was an aspirant at the time (1971) and was invited to stay. I would have thought they were making up all the verses, except that they all knew the words. It took forever for the whole thing to pass. Slow learner, I got involved in the cult. Sheeeesh...
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:16:59 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
It was a full house in satsang one night with about fifteen people crowded into an average sized living room. All were premies except one - a girl who had been brought along by her premie friend, possibly a work-colleague. It was her very first satsang but she sat attentively throughout, and -who knows? - may have been having some sort of 'experience'.
But then it was time for Arti. Normally it would be unthinkable to sing our devotional anthem if strangers were present, but for some inexplicable reason, we sang it that night - the long version. To make matters worse this newcomer happened to be sitting right in front of the altar, and one of the veteran premies, who certainly should have known better, took the Arti tray and handed it to her.
Note for newer premies: an Arti tray was a decorated plate, or sometimes metal dish (Indian brass designs were very popular, I remember). In the middle of the plate, surrounded by flower petals, would be a small lighted candle.
The girl took the Arti tray with a look of bafflement, and sat there confused as we launched into the song.
Seeing the poor girl's confusion this veteran premie (let's call him 'Kevin' to spare any blushes) leaned over and hissed in her ear. 'Waft it, waft it...' he urged, helpfully, miming the appropriate wafting technique with his hands. So the girl wafted...
I was sat on the other side of her and could see her face clearly. It was a picture of abject misery and distress as she waved this wretched brass plate from side to side for the duration of the song. I seem to remember Arti had about nine or ten verses, and if you sang it slowly it seemed to last for an eternity. The premie girl who had brought this friend along just sat head down, looking away, writhing in embarrassment.
Of course the unfortunate first-timer should have just said 'no', point blank - and as soon as the situation became personally embarrassing should have blown out the candle and walked out. They say that 'not causing a scene' is supposed to be a typically British characteristic, but I'm not so sure. I think there is something very powerful in our desire to comply with the requirements of whatever social situation we find ourselves in. It is like when you see a stage hypnotist achieving 100% compliance from his unfortunate volunteers when they are required to make fools of themselves in front of an audience of strangers. Very often the hypnotist doesn't even go through the charade of putting his volunteers 'into a trance'. They'll obey his instructions to the letter for the simple reason that they would feel even greater discomfort in not complying. Social influence can be a very powerful thing, and I wonder whether it might even be part of the glue that holds M's operation together.
But securing a life commitment from somebody is not the same as embarrassing them on stage for five minutes, and the social conformity pressure has to operate at a more subtle level. The person has to be eased in gently. No doubt had the situation been handled differently the girl would in time - maybe only a few weeks, even - have welcomed the opportunity to develop a perfect devotional wafting technique further, would have regarded the task as a privilege, even.
But thanks to Kevin's misguided burst of enthuisasm, the visitor was never seen again - so in a way you could say that that story has a happy ending, at least.
Hi all
In 1974 I moved into a lunatic asylam called Luton
Ashram. Talk about from light to darkness!
This had to be the craziest place on the planet.
One morning a guy called Bob woke us up at 5am
for Arti, with a carving knife at one of the resident's
throat; it took four of us to subdue him.
all the best
ex-mug
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:38:17 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: A very English incident
Message:
I'd heard bad stories about Luton which was why I thought I was lucky to be sent to Stoke on Trent ashram.
However, I soon realised I was out of luck when I woke one morning feeling ill. The nice kind ashram secretary told me I was in my mind and proceeded to kick me out of my sleeping bag.
Oh the gentleness and love of Maharaji's world. The forced singing of arti was standard. One day I flipped out and went down to London to tell head office that I could stand it no more. Those shining lights of DLM in head office at London gave me a thorough pasting and then sent me to see Mahatma Ashokanand. He was some heavy dude, I found out.
He called me irresponsible and told me to go back to Stoke ashram and get up at 4 am each morning to meditate. This was his own personal agya for me. Needless to say, I didn't keep that up for long.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:03:18 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Talking of suicide
Message:
I commited suicide in the seventies. This was not a cry for help but a serious attempt to end it all. I did not blame Maharaji for my committing suicide but I do think that the constant attempt to practise and realise the knowledge, the endless satsang and mind numbing closetted lifestyle did cause me to become severely depressed.
When I committed suicide I had a near death experience. I left my body and found myself in a place with some nice people in it. They spent ages explaining to me that I had made a mistake. They made no mention of Maharaji or the knowledge. It wasn't even considered in my life's purpose. To kill myself I had taken a massive overdose. There is no doubt that it was a miracle that I did not leave my body forever.
I took the overdose back in 1976. I'd come home from the evening satsang and was completely depressed and dangeriously low. The balance of my mind was disturbed and all that. I took about 30 paracetomol tablets, 10 sleeping tablets and about 5 tranquilisers, just for good measure. Put the Pink Floyd, 'Wish You Were Here' album on and settled down to die quietly.
Three days later I found myself lying on the living room floor. I couldn't stand up and was so weak I could only crawl. But I was alive. I remembered having been in a place somewhere, sitting and listening to some people talking to me. They were very nice and understanding people and they were telling me that this was not the way it had to be, that I did not have to kill myself and that I could go back and live again. They totally reassured me that I was supposed to be alive and there was a purpose for it. There was no judgement there from these people, only love and compassion.
So when I found myself alive and lying on my living room floor, I was very grateful and happy to be back here again. I had been given a second chance. Later that day I was taken to the hospital and when I told a doctor how many tablets I'd taken he exclaimed, 'You should be dead!'
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:25:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Sir David:
I had not even thought about it much but I attempted suicide in 1979. It was after I had left M. Got a gas mask and hooked it up directly to the gas stove, and put it over my face. Like you, I then settled down. About two hours later I woke up with a gawdawful headache, and a feeling that what I intended was a mistake. Never considered suicide again after that.
At the time, I had still not actually given up on Maharaji (though I had left the mission, and no longer attended satsang), but was very disappointed that he apparently had done nothing about 'bringing peace to the world.' Shortly after that I decided that R. Buckminster Fuller had a better chance with a new housing design. Still a bit disappointed that the 'fly's eye' dome didn't catch on, but feel R.B.F. took a real shot at it, and left a lasting legacy.
Robert Bly says that many people consider, and even try, suicide. He feels that as long as you don't actually do it... it reflects a stage in achieving maturity. The key is to share the experience with others so you can put it in its proper context, and you don't have to keep returning to the same lesson.
Again, at the time I did not connect this with M at all. Even now, I'm not sure that attributing it to him wouldn't rob me of a stage in my own growth. What ends well...
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:07:24 (EST)
Poster: former lovers can be a
Email: **
To: Scott T.
Subject: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Hell, it's understandable.
After having the easter bunny, santa,tooth fairy,
monsters, ghosts, witches, turn out to be false,
and seeing all the hallowed adults you look up to as
a child turn out to be what they are, and the cops and
politicians and priests show thier corruption, then the lord
comes to bring the millenium and even he turns out to
be false, suicide would come to mind.
I know 3 for sure dead premies. Girls. All former ashram
victims. maharaji's trip was WAY to heavy.
If the jewish king david had his vile deeds aired for all
the world to see, why not maharaji?
The difference of course is that david was crushed by
the design features of embarrassment and guilt and regret
and turned himself around by asking the amazing
creativity for some clarity and whatever else.
maharaji will not be doing anything like that. HE is
the god so he will continue to be doomed and like a
black hole for peoples devotion and money.
We all killed ourselves for years. That was exactly
what his reccomendation- oh excuse me, that was exactly
what the lord demanded.
100% lose of yourself. If you don't remember, real sevice
to him entailed NOTHING for you.
You might remember when he put the squeeze on the
residence premies, he was walking by where they would have
a short break during the day and he heard laughter and
he spoke about it in a program and said ' sorry guys,'
that had to stop and that was chit chat. Goodbye any
fun talk. He played the lord god thing to the maximum
possible hilt. He has chosen to continue. I wish I
could just walk away but he has to be crushed.
I cant make it happen but I will do my part.
Sorry to be so heavy on valentines day but REALLY.
We kissed his god damn feet.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:28:12 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: former lovers can be a
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
OK, but as I said in a post below, I'm less worried about MJ than about what comes later... He is conservative, and won't play it to the hilt. As far as I'm concerned he's still an eight-year-old without a father.
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:02:52 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Perhaps not attribute the suicide to Maharaji. I wouldn't in my case or perhaps in ANY case. The reason being that Maharaji was completely and blissfully unaware of the bad effects of trying to practise the knowledge with constant and very serious satsang, service and meditation.
Let's face it - he never tried that dicipline day in, day out for months and years on end. I genuinely think that Maharaji did not know what a devastating effect this was having on some western people.
At best, people soon become fed up of the discipline. At worst they can become severely depressed and isolated, always thinking that they are being troubled by their mind when in reality they are trying to achieve an impossible standard.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 02:35:39 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: former lovers can be a
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
> I wish I could just walk away but he has to be crushed.
I cant make it happen but I will do my part.
Sorry to be so heavy on valentines day but REALLY.
We kissed his god damn feet.
Burke,
You are helping pay for the gulf fleet fuel and $30-40 million for the Star Clinton investigation among a host of other worthwhile projects being undertaken by rational adults who were not subjected to your ashram training period.
At the moment we will ingnore the atrocities in Algeria and the fake drugs being sold to poor people around the world which do not help with their diseases.
Are you sure M is the root of the problem?
Do you prefer Republicans, Democrats or Jerry Springer?
Yes, the wonders of clear rational dialog and sitcoms!
Your analysis on the roots of suicide may have some serious flaws.
Make sure you know the correct facts.
Many conclusions being presented on this site are dubious because of weak detective work.
See if you can figure out the EV tax story first before you fool around with a witchhunt on the more dangerous subjects.
Who killed Jesus and Socrates?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 08:13:51 (EST)
Poster: I am
Email: **
To: CD
Subject: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Well as you know I am back and forth on this.
Even on the same night.
Socrates was a suicide as he was given a choice of leaving.
Jesus walked headlong into death knowing in advance
that he was. Again he had an option also.
Whatever thier reasons they chose thier end.
I am not involved in his tax story.
Education is what I was thinking.
And only his own words with some commentary.
In a way I prefer maharaji over all the people you mentioned
because after all these years he is like family.
But since he is a regular person but has decided
to spread the message to 50 countries that he is
god (wink wink) I find myself on the side of his mom
on this subject.
Face it, his message is getting more honed all the time
and if it wasn't for people with memories or people
that read his occasional revealing sentences what hope
for honesty would simple folk have in those 50 counries?
Fine if he wants to reveal the breath or whatever but
he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new people
that he is the one that knows them and should be adored
and carried on thier shoulders as the savior of mankind.
That is not fair.
His video footage of his life has so many moments of
godhood from his early years that it LOOKS like it must
be true. I mena the early years with us. And his whole
effort looks so humanitarian but it is insidious
falsehood of the largest scale.
Can thier be a more dishonorable thing then to boldly
pretend to be god?
Not if you don't believe in a concious god.
Look at the dilemma of countess people. They have to
discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they
only have the videos. That is not fair to say the least.
So the comparison with tv people, actually I find
most of the dem. and republicans to be honorable
people who are as awake to thier lives as they can be.
Maybe way more than us.
Flawed yes, but you can forget about getting out of that
condition. You fix one thing and you are still caught
in the nature of being human. Certainly maharaji has
not avoided so many of the so- called 7 or 8 or whatever
deadly sins.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:54:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
When you open up a bit, Chris, you sound incredibly pompous.
Leaving little detective clues, as if you're waiting for the right moment to finally explain all. Can you see that?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:29:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Dear Chris,
Of course there are many many things in the world worse than Maharaji and his organization. And of course Maharaji is not the root of all evil. Maharaji is insignificant, really. There are issues that worry me a whole lot more than Maharaji does. That's why I don't care if people follow him, as long as they are happy doing it. I figure that they could be doing worse things.
BUT, a lot of people who post on this site were hurt deeply and personally by being part of Maharaji's organization. It's sort of like child abuse. You have to get past it before you can do anything else. I don't agree with Burke that Maharaji needs to be 'crushed'. I really don't care one way or another, to be honest. But I do think that Burke and others are hurt and angry and this needs to be acknowledged and talked about so he and all of us can get on with our lives. And to me that's the purpose of this forum and web site.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 18:38:53 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Burke
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
>Fine if he wants to reveal the breath or whatever but
he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new people
that he is the one that knows them and should be adored
and carried on thier shoulders as the savior of mankind.
That is not fair.
Burke,
He is doing something to wake people up to another level of awareness with some success and you are a couch potato.
>His video footage of his life has so many moments of
godhood from his early years that it LOOKS like it must
be true. I mena the early years with us. And his whole
effort looks so humanitarian but it is insidious
falsehood of the largest scale.
Maharaji has publicly attributed the success of spreading the Knowledge to the efforts of the premies.
He promotes the understanding that human beings are equal regardless of their physical or social attributes.
He does this by a solid experience not by theory.
M is quite successful at what he does.
You can be jealous of him or use him as a mentor and role model for your own personal success.
>Look at the dilemma of countess people. They have to
discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they
only have the videos. That is not fair to say the least.
Many people do not worry about the 'god' issue but find new found common sense and understanding in what M teaches.
CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:06:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Chris,
Now that we've got you talking you're really kind of funny.
When you say:
>M is quite successful at what he does.
are you referring to M's stated purpose for 'coming into this world', namely saving it? Or do you just mean ripping people off?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:17:47 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
> That's why I don't care if people follow him, as long as they are happy doing it. I figure that they could be doing worse things.
How nice of you!
>But I do think that Burke and others are hurt and angry and this needs to be acknowledged and talked about so he and all of us can get on with our lives. And to me that's the purpose of this forum and web site.
There are many other agendas on this site.
For example, Burke has his anger AND enjoys writing an intriguing article.
Mr. Ex wants to find some tax problem with Elan Vital.
Some people want to know what M is up to these days.
I enjoy and learn from discussion and also refute the claims that life being part of M's organization is akin to child abuse.
Other people discuss wether there might be some validity to Knowledge and wether the notion of a heart is a dangerous idea.
Rumour spreading is also popular.
These examples are just the tip of the iceburg.
Regards,
CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:19:52 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
>are you referring to M's stated purpose for 'coming into this world', namely saving it? Or do you just mean ripping people off?
Both, one for you and one for me.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 19:26:53 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Assuming I'll take the latter, how do you keep a straight face and say he's successful at saving the world?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:11:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
> That's why I don't care if people follow him, as long as they are happy doing it. I figure that they could be doing worse things.
How nice of you!
Oh Chris, it was a joke! You knew that, I hope!
Seriously, I know there are a lot of agendas on this site and I was just trying to state mind. I realize that life within Maharaji's organization was not akin to abuse for everyone, but I think it's important to acknowledge that it was for some people. Even premies can acknowledge that without invalidating their OWN experience.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 22:26:02 (EST)
Poster: thier logic ties me up
Email: bb
To: CD
Subject: and rapes me. a do do do, a da da da (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
Hi there CD.
Actually I hardly ever sit on the couches and it's
because I hardly ever watch tv.
Everyone here knows that the only time I watch was to see
his videos.
I've seen some of the latest amaroo and read december
scripts.
Chris, there IS no other 'level' that he is trying to
wake me up too. Just devotion to himas the master and
I have certainly done that plenty. He doesn't respond and his words show that he does not recieve anything
that was felt or thought in his direction.
Chris ol bean I have not heard him talk much
about that other subject.
You are free to view him as you can.
You know what I object to and I am not trying to pound
you with it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:40:07 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
CD-
I am so glad you brought up Jesus. At least he had the guts, while proclaiming to be a perfect master, to stick to his story. He didn't hide in some expensive house in the hills. He was willing to die rather than change his claims. I guess M doesn't like the idea of a cross...
Regards, VP
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:32:32 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: problem sometimes (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
CD-
I am so glad you brought up Jesus. At least he had the guts, while proclaiming to be a perfect master, to stick to his story. He didn't hide in some expensive house in the hills. He was willing to die rather than change his claims. I guess M doesn't like the idea of a cross...
Regards, VP
I had this thought about Jesus returning from Gethsemene to tell everyone that he had talked things over with the Father... and had decided to raise money from the Romans to build a villa. So what did this idiot John, who ate bugs, lose his head over?
-Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 01:37:50 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
CD states:
<>
I can't think of anyone I'd be LESS likely to use as a role model than Maharaji. In what manner do you consider him a success? The only thing he is successful at is accumulating wealth and material possessions, which is, by today's society's standards, considered a success, I guess, but the methods he uses to get these I think are despicable. This is most certainly not my aim in life, to rip people off and get them to give me all their money. In that respect, yes, I guess, Maharaji is a great success, but certainly not one I look up to.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:18:04 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
I commited suicide in the seventies. This was not a cry for help but a serious attempt to end it all. I did not blame Maharaji for my committing suicide but I do think that the constant attempt to practise and realise the knowledge, the endless satsang and mind numbing closetted lifestyle did cause me to become severely depressed.
When I committed suicide I had a near death experience. I left my body and found myself in a place with some nice people in it. They spent ages explaining to me that I had made a mistake. They made no mention of Maharaji or the knowledge. It wasn't even considered in my life's purpose. To kill myself I had taken a massive overdose. There is no doubt that it was a miracle that I did not leave my body forever.
I took the overdose back in 1976. I'd come home from the evening satsang and was completely depressed and dangeriously low. The balance of my mind was disturbed and all that. I took about 30 paracetomol tablets, 10 sleeping tablets and about 5 tranquilisers, just for good measure. Put the Pink Floyd, 'Wish You Were Here' album on and settled down to die quietly.
Three days later I found myself lying on the living room floor. I couldn't stand up and was so weak I could only crawl. But I was alive. I remembered having been in a place somewhere, sitting and listening to some people talking to me. They were very nice and understanding people and they were telling me that this was not the way it had to be, that I did not have to kill myself and that I could go back and live again. They totally reassured me that I was supposed to be alive and there was a purpose for it. There was no judgement there from these people, only love and compassion.
So when I found myself alive and lying on my living room floor, I was very grateful and happy to be back here again. I had been given a second chance. Later that day I was taken to the hospital and when I told a doctor how many tablets I'd taken he exclaimed, 'You should be dead!'
David, I wanted to thank you for sharing this experience. I know it probably isn't the easiest thing to talk about.
I never tried to commit suicide, but I recall a couple of periods when I was a premie that I seriously considered it. On time in particular was in late 1980, when I was sent to San Francisco to be the community coordinator for DLM after being in Miami for almost two years. In Miami, I had seen first had the abuse that was being inflicted on a lot of premies, and how Maharaji didn't care one wit what happened to the premies who were trying to dedicate to him, and I also saw the monumental material greed that Maharaji had. I also saw that he really had given up the idea of bringing either peace or knowledge to the world, like he had promised he would. He was just becomming a megalomaniac wanting more and more stuff, under the guise of being the perfect master. I also saw a lot of the illegal fundraising and how M was lying to the premies that he wasn't raising money for a big Boeing 707 jet, but was raising the money for a world tour. A big lie. And as a honcho in DLM, I helped foster the lie, and to some extent the abuse. It really challeneged the values I had been raised to consider important, like honesty and caring for other people.
Anyway, I pulled all the strings I could to get out of SF because I had little faith left in M. I thought if I went to some community somewhere, I could get the feeling of faith and devotion back. But I never really could.
In San Francisco, I can recall sitting in Golden Gate Park in the middle of the day considering killing myself. I prayed, I practiced knowledge, but the feeling didn't go away. That lasted for a few months. The incredibly insensitive actions of some of the DLM leadership, like David Smith especially, confirmed what I had already seen in Miami.
I don't know why the suicidal feelings went away. I think it was because I got a job and started making non-premie friends who I began spending more time with (surruptitiously) and I felt a lot of support from some of them. But the faith never really came back. It was really gone by then. It took awhile, but I finally left for good, because at some time I stopped blaming myself and realized it was Maharaji that was the problem.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 04:58:28 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the god you have been praying to (Re: Talking of suicide)
Message:
>Fine if he wants to reveal the breath or whatever but
he is plainly trying to strongly imply to the new people
that he is the one that knows them and should be adored
and carried on thier shoulders as the savior of mankind.
That is not fair.
Burke,
He is doing something to wake people up to another level of awareness with some success and you are a couch potato.
>His video footage of his life has so many moments of
godhood from his early years that it LOOKS like it must
be true. I mena the early years with us. And his whole
effort looks so humanitarian but it is insidious
falsehood of the largest scale.
Maharaji has publicly attributed the success of spreading the Knowledge to the efforts of the premies.
He promotes the understanding that human beings are equal regardless of their physical or social attributes.
He does this by a solid experience not by theory.
M is quite successful at what he does.
You can be jealous of him or use him as a mentor and role model for your own personal success.
>Look at the dilemma of countess people. They have to
discerne wether maharaji is the one god sent and they
only have the videos. That is not fair to say the least.
Many people do not worry about the 'god' issue but find new found common sense and understanding in what M teaches.
CD
Dear CD
You said that M has publicly attributed the success of
spreading his knowledge to the effort of the premies.
Words are cheap.
Of course he is going to humour the people who work
for him without pay.
He more likely pays lip-service to the understanding that
human beings are equal regardless of their physical or
social attributes.
His is an organisation that by it's very nature does not
pomote equality. Look at the track record dating back to
the early seventies.
There are the honchos and the plebs. What's equal about that?
all the best
ex-mug
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 08:15:00 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Sir David,
Thank you very much for this suicide post. (And thanks to JIm for the 'Valentine ' post, too.)
I lost a premie who I loved very much to suicide, as I have said before. This person was diagnosed with severe depression. It had begun to manifest physically. I know that part of it was disillusion with M, but I had never considered that it could actually be connected to the rigorous requirements of the meditation, service, satsang, programs, etc. I believe this was also true for this person.
I also think my friend had a lot of guilt because he couldn't serve M fully (move into an ashram, etc.) because he had kids. I think that was a huge burden on his heart. I thank Selena for sharing that insight as well. Thanks so very much for all of the honesty here, everyone. It's hard opening yourself up but I, for one, really appreciate hearing these posts. Love, VP
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 05:29:31 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: VP
Subject: Re: Talking of suicide
Message:
Both JW and VP comments read and noted with thanks.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:55:35 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Radhasoami connection
Message:
In the 'Background' section of this site it states:
Maharaji's father's personal guru is said to have been Grand Master Anand Swarup.Swarup fought a succession battle in 1914 against friends and family of the previous Master. He created a large township called Dayalbagh and started a number of industries staffed by his followers.
I am sure that this 'Anand Swarup' is an entirely different man than the 'Sarupanand' who was actually Shri Hans' guru.
This is a reasonably important point to clear up in as much as the Radhasoami influence (which is much cited here) is possibly only by virtue of the reputed connection between Shri Hans and Sawan Singh who was indeed a well-known Radhasoami Guru. (Prof. David Lane says that Shri Hans was initiated by Sawan Singh but that Sarupanand of Guna was his eventual Guru)
It would seem sensible to get the facts straight here if possible.
Not much seems to be known about this Sarupanand fellow though.
David Lane writes further that there is a book available from UCLA called 'Advait Sant Mat' (or something like that) which tells of Sarupanand and his lineage. Worth following up anyone?
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 10:32:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Radhasoami connection
Message:
In the 'Background' section of this site it states:
Maharaji's father's personal guru is said to have been Grand Master Anand Swarup.Swarup fought a succession battle in 1914 against friends and family of the previous Master. He created a large township called Dayalbagh and started a number of industries staffed by his followers.
I am sure that this 'Anand Swarup' is an entirely different man than the 'Sarupanand' who was actually Shri Hans' guru.
This is a reasonably important point to clear up in as much as the Radhasoami influence (which is much cited here) is possibly only by virtue of the reputed connection between Shri Hans and Sawan Singh who was indeed a well-known Radhasoami Guru. (Prof. David Lane says that Shri Hans was initiated by Sawan Singh but that Sarupanand of Guna was his eventual Guru)
It would seem sensible to get the facts straight here if possible.
Not much seems to be known about this Sarupanand fellow though.
David Lane writes further that there is a book available from UCLA called 'Advait Sant Mat' (or something like that) which tells of Sarupanand and his lineage. Worth following up anyone?
Anon:
I noticed no one has followed up on this. Anand Swarup sounds a great deal like Sarupanand. What, besides the slight change in nomenclature, makes you think they are different?
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:19:36 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Radhasoami connection
Message:
I noticed no one has followed up on this. Anand Swarup sounds a great deal like Sarupanand. What, besides the slight change in nomenclature, makes you think they are different?
-Scott
Scott,
For some time I too mistook this 'AnandSwarup' for the Sarupanand that I had heard was Shri Hans' guru. I bought and read the book by Mark Jurgensmeyer called 'Radhasoami Reality' which is somewhat of a thorough study of that lineage and which speaks of him at length. I am quite familiar therefore with the history of Anand Swarup who was widely-known as a Radhasoami Guru and whose life is well documented.
David Lane (who has made a considerable study of the Radhasoami Tradition as you probably know) bought to my attention in an email that the Guru of ShriHans was another guru called Sarupanand from Guna. (Anand Swarup was from Dayalbagh). As did some current premies who were interested coincidentally.
Given that there are probably dozens of gurus with similar sounding names and that Sarupanand (with that particular spelling) has been written and spoken of for years by premies (notably the older Indian Mahatmas) as being Shri Hansji's guru, it would not seem unlikely that he is the guy in question and not the more famous one whose name is spelled differently anyway.
I agree no-one seems particularly interested in this. I personally found that studying the whole past lineage thing helped me to understand the prosaic mechanisms that are at play in this whole business. Another thing is that Anand Swarup very distinctly did not pass on the mantle of Guruship to Shri Hansji.It was to someone else. I know that these Indian Gurus spawn dozens of pretending successors but even so, if Shri Hans had been a notable disciple of Anand Swarup then it would have been documented in Mark Jurgensmeyers book for a start.
I feel slightly responsible for the error on the background page of this site. The former author of this site, David, asked me if I knew anything of Sarupanand. I was then under the impression that AnandSwarup was the man and said so. Thus I may have contributed, inadvertently, to what I feel is an incorrect version of the history of DLM.
I thought it worth mentioning as the credibility of this website is obviously tied up, to some extent, with the accuracy of its reporting. Possibly Brian may make this correction when he has the time.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:48:59 (EST)
Poster: succession
Email: bb
To: Anon
Subject: confession (Re: Radhasoami connection)
Message:
I for one would like to let you know that the issue
is interesting but I didn't know what to ask.
It helps to know the history because it helps debunk
the line of godhead idea.
I'm sure others found it interesting also.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 23:35:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Radhasoami connection
Message:
I definitely think this is worth following up. I think it was the phrasing of your question 'Worth following up anyone?' that may have stopped people from responding. It sounds as if you want someone else to follow it up, and it's something I don't have the expertise to research. On the other hand, if you were asking if it was worthwhile for you (or someone else knowledgeable) to follow up, I think yes.
I'm not sure if Maharaji is still promoting the succession idea like he did in the seventies (anyone know?) but it was certainly prevalent then (I always wondered about the lineage, too. Premies always said that Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., etc. were in the lineage. This sounds a little far-fetched now, doesn't it?). I know that I lost a lot of respect for the sanctity of the four meditation techniques when Mike Addison said that one of Maharaji's mahatmas showed him nine techniques in India. I think that investigating the lineage might have a similar effect.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:28:50 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Search Engines
Message:
I just did a search (using Alta Vista) on 'Maharaji'. What came up was a crop of outdated URL's from the old version of this site.
It occured to me that it must be confusing for people to see all these old defunct links. Can anything be done to remove them from search engines and to replace them with the new URL's?
(I believe that you can put connecting pages at all the old addresses which automatically send you to the new address)
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 12:08:43 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Search Engines
Message:
While I was making the changes to the site, I was being re-directed to the homepage whenever requesting a missing page. I've been under the impression that this was still happening. A check today shows that this isn't true.
I sent email to the server today asking for clarification on this.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:47:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Search Engines
Message:
I heard back from the site server today. They are no longer redirecting 404's (Page Not Found errors) to the homepage.
I'm not about to upload a mess of redirect pages to the site. I have found hits on the new pages in searches, so the spiders are active. The search spiders will weed out the dead pages when they receive 404's back.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 16:31:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: heller@islandnet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Actually, Maharaji, I used to sign Valentine Day cards to you all the time. This year, I've got a question: do you know who I am?
I think you might now because I was one of the earlier, more vocal ex's. Maybe you've seen the page. But how about before then? Back when I thougth you wee constantly there, universal and caring. Did you even know I existed?
Obviously, the answer's 'no.' Here's one, Maharaji: who was Elaine in Vancouver? Can't answer that? She was this really sweet premie who used to hang around the ashram a lot in 72 and 73 but who couldn't move in because of her kids. She killed herself in '75. You were everything to her. Hopefully, it didn't take you too long to recover from the shock of her death.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:32:09 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
I received Knowledge in San Francisco on Feb. 14, 1974. There was a time when I thought that had some significance.
-Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 17:39:47 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Jim
That info about Elaine was so disturbing. I came very very close to that. The only thing that kept me from it was my love for my children. Still, I spent most of the seventies depressed and confused because I was a parent and didn't know how to serve M, and truely give the way he seemed to want. Premies can justify that me and my stupid concepts all they want, but as far as I am concerned, I missed 10+ years of enjoying my childrem growing up. I am still trying to deal with that. At least I didn't kill myself, but I wanted to, many times. Now I see how lucky I was to have those kies, they are the anchors that kept me from being swept away into blisstonia.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:36:45 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his love.
By the way, what are kies and how can I get one?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 18:47:05 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his love.
By the way, what are kies and how can I get one?
If you want kies, get a CS degree. Kies are the result of 14 years of programming/computing. I am a fast touch-typist, who, on my days off, has an aversion to proof-reading. Hence we have kies, and all kinds of creative writing. Sorry. I really should be more careful
The whole argument of what might have been seems to be popular with the premies I know. They argue that my life may have been worse without M. Who knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use that set of ideas to help me in my recovery.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 19:15:00 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his love.
By the way, what are kies and how can I get one?
If you want kies, get a CS degree. Kies are the result of 14 years of programming/computing. I am a fast touch-typist, who, on my days off, has an aversion to proof-reading. Hence we have kies, and all kinds of creative writing. Sorry. I really should be more careful
The whole argument of what might have been seems to be popular with the premies I know. They argue that my life may have been worse without M. Who knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use that set of ideas to help me in my recovery.
They argue that my life may have been worse without M. Who knows? Since I don't have that data I see no reason to use that set of ideas to help me in my recovery.
Selena. Once at a knowledge session, I recall M said that knowledge wouldn't change our lives. I don't remember the year, perhaps in 86 or 87. I remember because at that time I was questioning myself about the validity of the whole thing. I quit going to all programs from mid 87.
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:09:26 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Yeah, some will say that Elaine, bless her heart, was always a little nervous (suggesting that she'd have killed herself anyway). Who knows? I only know that Maharaji's mind-fuck destabalized all of us as we tried to stuff our minds and identities down the garbage disposal of his love.
By the way, what are kies and how can I get one?
{Hi Jim, great to see you posting, when, like me, you told everyone you were taking a break}
Of course the girl might have killed herself anyway. She was nervous, right? Unhappy, even. I think you'll find knowledge works best for folk who are pretty well socially-adjusted already. The 'weary and the weak' have a tougher time all round.
I work amongst unhappy people. The clients are heroin addicts. Heroin addicts are deeply unhappy uncool people, whether ot not this is apparent from Lou Reed albums or the 'Trainspotting' film. (Am I the only person in the whole of the middle-class-but-cool-used-to-be-a-pop-festival- attending-drug-abusing-hippy-but-then-had-to-come-back-to-reality-when- the-poverty-got-too-much world to hate that movie?)
The counsellors, outreach workers, 'therapists' (as some staff prefer to be known), are ALSO unhappy people - what with the stress of hearing, day in, day out, accounts of child abuse, battling with the habit, doing rehab for the 'n'th time, the struggles of having to renounce old friendships d get back into mainstream life, whilst knowing that in the present industrial and economic climate these people, for all their best intentions, are NOT going to find work, are NOT going to get access to their estranged children who, perhaps, might have beeen luckier never to have been born, and are simply NOT going to get very far in life. What these agency workers offer isn't even therapy in any orthodox psycho-dynamic sense, because, as anybody who studied the area will know, psychotherapy is crap; the best you can offer is better described as 'social support', ie., just listening, chatting and being on the client's side. Twenty years ago the solution would have been so simple: just tell them all (clients and counsellors) about Guru Maharaj ji, bring them along to satsang. It would be so beautiful to see that change within, that connecting to the source of everything, that divine spark...
[Excuse me a small digression - but I don't remember anybody ever having been brought along to satsang who hadn't already been, maybe unofficially, vetted in some way as to whether they were mentally stable, socially acceptable, and not likely to start arguing in the middle and wreck everybody else's experience of the truth. Modern day premies, I understand do not have daily satsang in the way that us oldies used to, so will not know about that nightly experience, the three-song sandwich with Arti for dessert which, when I come to think of it, was probably the most powerful item in M's toolkit (foolkit?). No wonder so many premies deserted in the early eighties when satsang was abolished. Listening to other premies share satsang was, for me at least, ALWAYS so much more enjoyable than watching M himself, live or on video). But I am digressing even within my digression now, the main point being: middle class premies are so much nicer, and tend to have disposable incomes available for donation to community funds. Whatever they claim, M's followers are NOT a cross-section of society, and never will be.]
There are many spurious escapes from difficult life experiences, and 'knowledge' is just one of them - no better, and probably worse than, say, hypnosis or relaxation tapes. Maharaj ji provided temporary sedation for me at an extremely painful time in my life, but only by making me look away from the real world rather than develop the skills to cope with that world - just as junkies look to the needle rather than the causes of their unhappiness, and I'm not sure I can entirely blame them for doing so.
But now I'm damned if I'll ever again recommend to anybody that they follow Maharaj ji or follow anybody. Following is folly, and simple answers are exactly that: simple.
It is simple to be foolish and foolish to be simple.
best wishes
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:27:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Dear Nigel (glad you are back, whether temporarily or permanently),
We've had a couple of talks about premie suicides while you and Jim were gone - not sure if you guys read them. I find it scary and disturbing is that a lot of the ex-premies who post on here know at least one other premie who committed suicide.
You wrote that knowledge didn't work very well for the 'weary and the weak'. I agree. But, at the time I received knowledge (1972), it was supposed to be a remedy for all unhappiness, etc., etc. If this wasn't true for you, then you just weren't doing enough meditation, service, and satsang or you weren't devoted enough to Guru Maharaji.
Plus there was all these other people that knowledge was apparently working for who you could hear talking about their blissful experiences every night. This resulted in a lot of guilt for people who didn't experience much through knowledge - like me. I always felt like it was my fault because I wasn't doing enough. (I've since found out that a lot of people who gave 'blissful' satsang were pretty unhappy. In fact, I used to give satsang and I KNOW I was unhappy!)
Anyway, I can see why this would drive someone to suicide - especially if they really believed that it was their fault that they weren't experiencing anything. I guess the only reason that I never felt like killing myself was that deep in my heart, I didn't believe that Maharaji was god (and boy did I feel guilty about that! But not enough to kill myself, thank god.)
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:31:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Katie,
What if you're wrong? What if Maharaji really is God after all? I know, cuase I've done it before, that I could grovel and pranam before him (and his daughter, too, if it so pleases him). But what about you? Is there a place in this world for a chronic salt ant?
Not trying to freak you out or anything. Happy Valentine's day!
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 21:39:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Katie,
What if you're wrong? What if Maharaji really is God after all? I know, cuase I've done it before, that I could grovel and pranam before him (and his daughter, too, if it so pleases him). But what about you? Is there a place in this world for a chronic salt ant?
Not trying to freak you out or anything. Happy Valentine's day!
Happy Valentine's Day, Jim!
I know I've said this before, but I was so miserable when I decided to leave Maharaji that I decided I'd rather go to hell (like he said we would if we didn't practice knowledge) than follow him any more. That's why I like that song 'Friend of the Devil', by that band...you know.
By the way, I'm not saying I was smarter than anyone else here. I did pranam to Maharaji (and his picture) a whole bunch of times. I really WANTED to believe he was god, I just couldn't.
P.S. What is a chronic salt ant?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 22:19:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Sugar ant? Salt ant? No? Nothing? Really?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 23:50:53 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Katie:
I feel obliged to say something positive here, for the sake of balance. My experience in the 1960s was MUCH more disappointing and destructive than anything I went through with MJ. In fact, I had a sort of 'relapse' to that psychotic state shortly after receiving Knowledge, while living in Spokane. During the time I was hospitalized I received numerous visits from local premies, and those visit were very important in helping me battle those psychoses that had predated Knowledge. Furthermore, meditation seemed to 'snap be out of' the whole funk, in pretty short order. By that time I was pretty familiar with psychoses, and Knowledge it wasn't. Meditation was like a powerful medicine that gave me a reason to recover, and a handle out of the mental mess.
I've meant to write that little testimony for some time. I do not thing the relapse was 'caused' by Knowledge except in the most innocuous sense, and I did not experience the kind of intense mental confusion I had been accustomed to from about 1969 to 1971 or 72. Meditation actually seemed to take the sting out of all that.
I have to say that another friend of mine in the LA community succumbed to schizophrenia after receiving Knowledge. If anyone remembers him it was Valentine Vargas. Don't know what became of Val. Knowledge and meditation seemed to deepen his confusion, rather than help it.
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 00:32:47 (EST)
Poster: elena
Email: **
To: Selena
Subject: Selena (Re: A Valentine to My Lord)
Message:
In the vidoe I saw a couple weeks ago, youknow who
saaid some guy kept coming to see him and all he would talk
about was 'I could have been this I could have been that'
'I could have done this I could have done that.'
then he said he finally said 'dont let that guy in anymore.'
Now you may not know how he speaks so let me help.
There is no way maharji is going to let ANYONE come and
complain about that stuff to him over and over.
He was talking about himself.
As part of his midlife crisis, (worsened by this website),
He was bothered by the 'if only's'.
Hindsight ect.
Well he told the impulse to do analysis to go away and
that dooms him to the course he choose instead of getting
free of his own delusions.
Or rather, he has put aside any hope anyone might
have of him waking up and chosen to give in totally
to the hindu master/god business.
He had his mothers death and other lifelong misbehaviors
to prod him to wake up out of the alarm bells of regret.
But he told his consience 'don't come in anymore'
and so he has decided to get an 'F' on his midlife
crisis grade.
More delusion, misunderstanding, and public relations.
Certainly we can understand your lost 10 years with your
children. MANY people gave up thier children and spouses
because of his words. I know many.
He really doesn't deserve to wake up.
And obviously by his own words we can see he has decided
to clutch the treasure chest in the quicksand.
I have no idea what to say to your regret except that
I bet you were better to them then you remember.
I would probabaly sort of adopt (part time) some
child in your enviroment. There are certainly many
that are available. Just a regular involvement with
a young one that is missing one or both parents can really
heal a lot. I have done that with two girls and one boy.
They don't live with me, I already have 4 here of my own.
But those three sure appreciate the involvement.
I think this is a viable theraputic route you can consider.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 01:48:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Dear Scott - Sorry to be so 'N'! I didn't mean to imply that I didn't get anything out of the experience with Maharaji's organization. I think I wrote about this in the last forum. I was in a really bad place when I started going to satsang and got knowledge - drugs, weird people, bizzare spiritual stuff, hurtful relationships, etc. Plus I was only 16, so a lot of this stuff was hard for me to handle because I was so young. I really liked the structure of the premie world, and even though I didn't experience that much through meditation, being a premie was helpful to me for a couple of years - it was sort of a sheltered community where I could grow up without all these other weird threats. Then, as I did grow up, I started to feel confined, and then guilty, and then trapped, as I related above. But I can definitely relate to the experience that you describe above. (By the way, I give a lot of credit to the local premies that I knew in the 70's for being so kind and accepting of me. I never knew or came in contact with Maharaji so I can't give much credit to him. It sounds like you got a lot of help from premies as well.)
I didn't mean to imply that just receiving or practicing knowledge would cause someone to commit suicide - what I meant was that the pressure and guilt to practice knowledge (satsang, service, meditation, AND devotion) 'perfectly' was really hard on some people. I understand that there is not as much pressure on premies now - I hope not, anyway.
Re: my experience with the knowledge meditation. I never got that much out of it, and I did try to practice diligently for years. I know people who have really experienced great things by practicing it. At this point, I 've come to the conclusion that there is not one correct way to meditate, or one spiritual practice that is the 'right way' for all people. Not sure what other people think about this.
Katie
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 13:51:42 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Any of a number of cults could have bandaged you up and 'protected' you from life. Prison has also saved a lot of people from self-destruction. The 'negativity' is irrefutable if you maintain 'truth' in the equation and don't over-emphasize 'safety.'
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 14:40:11 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Any of a number of cults could have bandaged you up and 'protected' you from life. Prison has also saved a lot of people from self-destruction. The 'negativity' is irrefutable if you maintain 'truth' in the equation and don't over-emphasize 'safety.'
Jim:
Fair enough. But the fact is that they didn't. Anyway, my kudos went to the premie community, and to Knowledge, not to him. My feeling about this is that GMJ does not pass muster on any particular issue, but he is sometimes fairly close. For instance, as far as I know he has never taken sexual advantage of the myriad of young premie women around him, and has (apparently) remained faithful to a woman considerably older than he. This distinguishes him from people like Saih Baba, for instance. It always impressed me that he remained faithful to Marolyn. Perhaps it is the influence of the Catholic nuns in his youth?
One thing that the Theosophists did for Krishnamurti was to educate him. After his repudiation of the 'world teacher' role he was able to support himself through books and lectures. GMJ is all but illiterate. What skills does he possess? It seems possible that every time he came to the point of confronting himself, he also had to confront the hard fact that he had only a dismal alternative. I think Bob Mishler talks about this.
My contention is that GMJ is basically conservative. The fact that he is not obviously over the line on any particular issue induces people who have slightly blurred vision to think he is good. If they sharpen their focus a bit they will see that he is close to a score of zero on the 'good charisma' test.
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 16:15:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Haven't you read the steamy gossip about Maharaji's longtime mistress? My understanding is that Maharaji has indeed dipped his pen in the company ink (which must be hard to avoid when you're in charge of the whole known universe). I think Mr. Ex can confirm this.
I'm not sure what point you're making vis-a-vis Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that Maharaji deserves some sympathy for perpetuating his cult because he lacked an honest means of self-support. Hey, the guy could have kept just a fraction of his loot and still have been set for life. Besides, I've seen way too many premies struggle to piece together lives and careers to have any sympathy at all for the efforts Maharaji never made anyway.
You must be right about Maharaji being conservative. Yet how different he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he seemed like a blast of fresh air and no-bullshit flexibility.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 17:03:47 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Haven't you read the steamy gossip about Maharaji's longtime mistress? My understanding is that Maharaji has indeed dipped his pen in the company ink (which must be hard to avoid when you're in charge of the whole known universe). I think Mr. Ex can confirm this.
I'm not sure what point you're making vis-a-vis Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that Maharaji deserves some sympathy for perpetuating his cult because he lacked an honest means of self-support. Hey, the guy could have kept just a fraction of his loot and still have been set for life. Besides, I've seen way too many premies struggle to piece together lives and careers to have any sympathy at all for the efforts Maharaji never made anyway.
You must be right about Maharaji being conservative. Yet how different he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he seemed like a blast of fresh air and no-bullshit flexibility.
Jim:
I was not aware of the rumors. I suppose that you're right about the fact that he could have retired long ago. I just recalled that Cat Stevens retired to the life of an obscure Muslim clergyman. Fame and fortune are not irresistable for everyone, and Cat was a much better singer that MJ is a guru.
-Scott
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:14 (EST)
Poster: david
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
it did it was very meaningful and it was what it was.....that aint so bad it was an experience now its over let it go and live your life
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 21:05:29 (EST)
Poster: david
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
I received Knowledge in San Francisco on Feb. 14, 1974. There was a time when I thought that had some significance.
-Scott
it did it was very meaningful and it was what it was.....that aint so bad it was an experience now its over let it go and live your life
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 02:43:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
Haven't you read the steamy gossip about Maharaji's longtime mistress? My understanding is that Maharaji has indeed dipped his pen in the company ink (which must be hard to avoid when you're in charge of the whole known universe). I think Mr. Ex can confirm this.
I'm not sure what point you're making vis-a-vis Krishnamurti. Hopefully not that Maharaji deserves some sympathy for perpetuating his cult because he lacked an honest means of self-support. Hey, the guy could have kept just a fraction of his loot and still have been set for life. Besides, I've seen way too many premies struggle to piece together lives and careers to have any sympathy at all for the efforts Maharaji never made anyway.
You must be right about Maharaji being conservative. Yet how different he seemed 25 years ago, huh? Then he seemed like a blast of fresh air and no-bullshit flexibility.
Jim:
I was not aware of the rumors. I suppose that you're right about the fact that he could have retired long ago. I just recalled that Cat Stevens retired to the life of an obscure Muslim clergyman. Fame and fortune are not irresistable for everyone, and Cat was a much better singer that MJ is a guru.
-Scott
Fame and fortune are probably 'irresistable' to Maharaji, mostly because I think they have become so much a part of how he defines himself. They have become a psychological need. And 'fortune' he has already got. 'Fame,' except among an ever-dwindling group of 'devotees,' was probably limited to that unique cultural time in the early 70s, when the media and the society was open to the 'counter-culture' that was supposedly floating in from India and M arrived at the same time. I think he has given up on 'fame' as part of the higher goal of retaining 'fortune.'
BTW -- Besides the mistress (if she really exists) M, in the 80s, according to people high up on M's staff, had affairs with a number of different women, all premies. Consensual? Somehow the power relationship seems a bit skewed.
But regardless, to say that M deserves some credit because he wasn't a sexual predator is damning by faint praise. We could also say he wasn't a child molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals, or that he sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for those things too?
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:16:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
But regardless, to say that M deserves some credit because he wasn't a sexual predator is damning by faint praise. We could also say he wasn't a child molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals, or that he sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for those things too?
JW:
It's not exactly that I'm into giving him credit. Those 'virtues' (if they are true) simply make him less negative than, say, Sai Baba (who IS a child molester according to reports) or Paul Twitchell (who was a sexual predator).. The fact that he is less negative is still not a credit. I'm certianly not interested in following someone who is clearly not even as good a person as I am...
-Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 15:28:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, you really open the door on that one. Care to repost?
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:21:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
But regardless, to say that M deserves some credit because he wasn't a sexual predator is damning by faint praise. We could also say he wasn't a child molestor, toxic polluter, torturer of small animals, or that he sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. Does he deserve credit for those things too?
JW:
It's not exactly that I'm into giving him credit. Those 'virtues' (if they are true) simply make him less negative than, say, Sai Baba (who IS a child molester according to reports) or Paul Twitchell (who was a sexual predator).. The fact that he is less negative is still not a credit. I'm certianly not interested in following someone who is clearly not even as good a person as I am...
-Scott
Scott, from the little I have heard about you, you are so much a better person than M probably could ever be. You see, M, won't even engage in open dialogue, won't allow the possibility that he has committed an error, and blames others for his own, serious, deficiencies.
Maybe he hasn't been quite as destructive as some other 'spiritual' leaders. But give him time. He's only 40. So much time, and so many gullible, sincere people to take advantage of.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:39:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott, you really open the door on that one. Care to repost?
Jim:
How do you mean 'open the door?' I do not think M is consummately evil. As a critic one is better off with an honest and unbiased account than with an harangue. If I attempted to build a case that M was as bad as, say, Saih Baba or (more extreme) Saddam Hussein I might be in danger of de-legitimating myself as a critic. (I think this is what the feminists have done with some of their biased studies.) If you've got a case you're better off not trying to embellish it.
How is the door open? I have a guy who wants me to devote my life to him and an unbiased estimation says that he is no good. It's not a close call.
Besides, if my honest assessment did> leave the door open, then the door is open. I don't have an axe to grind here. Just trying to get at the truth.
-Scott
PS - Sometimes I worry that skepticism or cynicism becomes an end it itself. I don't see any affinity between GMJ and the great spiritual or political leaders. That's my point.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 16:46:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
I was just trying to be funny. I was talking about opening the door re you (i.e. by talking about your own character). Just a lame joke. Nothing to even talk about.
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Date: Mon, Feb 16, 1998 at 18:18:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A Valentine to My Lord
Message:
Scott,
I was just trying to be funny. I was talking about opening the door re you (i.e. by talking about your own character). Just a lame joke. Nothing to even talk about.
Jim:
Now that you mention it, I'd make a fairly good guru. I don't eat bugs (on purpose) and I dan't mind contributing 10% of my income to myself.
-Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 04:18:39 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I Was Wrong: The Untold Story of the Shocking Journey from EVI to Prison and Beyond
By Prem Rawat
Now with honesty and frankness, the 42-year-old man sentenced to 45 years in prison on charges related to his EVI ministry shares the intimate details of his incarceration, his divorce, and the mistakes he made along the way. The book also contains candid and hard-hitting insights on his new perspective on the dangers of prosperity theology and the seductive nature of power. More than just another celebrity biography, this is an important book for anyone struggling with lust, money, power, greed, divorce and brokenness. Includes a 16-page photo insert. 224 pp.
'As the true impact of Kabirs' words regarding money impacted my heart and mind, I became physically nauseated. I was wrong. I was wrong! Wrong in my lifestyle, certainly, but even more fundamentally, wrong in my understanding of the Gita's true message. Not only was I wrong, but I was teaching the opposite of what Krisha had said.'
An airconditioned doghouse. Marolyn crying on camera. David Smith. Padarthanand. Charnanand. Belkis Shah.
The media circus gleefully trumpeted every detail of Prempal’s dizzying descent from the pinnacle of the multimillion-dollar Malibu residence and Elan Vital’s Knowledge Centers to ignominy, impoverishment--and in Prempal's case--imprisonment.
Yet the loss of his empire, his money, his home, and his reputation in the two years leading up to his imprisonment in 2000 was only the beginning. In prison, he was to lose even more--his freedom, his sanity, his dignity, his conficence in his faith, and eventually even his wife. Inmate 07407-058, one-time confidant to presidents, had hit bottom.
In the humiliation, loneliness, and abject despair of prison, Rawat gradually began to realize that he had to dig deep and face things about himself that as a free man he had been too busy to face. What were those issues? How did he face them? How was he changed?
Now for the very first time, Prempal Rawat tells his own story--the glory days as The Lord of the Universe, the hostile takeover, the emotional breakdown. How he got to prison, his experiences behind bars, and what he learned.
Prem Rawat was wrong about many things. Exactly what they were and how he came to confess them will surprise you and inspire you. This is his story
http://www.worship.com/books/iwaswrong.htm for more details
(In case you haven’t understood this small fiction, change Prem Rawat’s name to Jim Baker, and you’ll understand how our ex-beloved could finally realize something and share some truth about himself)
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 03:35:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I don't think this kind of sick garbage even deserves a comment.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 05:39:15 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji's long expected book!
Message:
I don't think this kind of sick garbage even deserves a comment.
so why did you comment?
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