Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 6

From: Feb 13, 1998

To: Feb 20, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5


Brian -:- NOTE: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:29:09 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Our Fundamental Confusion - A Reprise -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)

JW -:- Historical Recollections -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:25:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Historical Recollections -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:53:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Historical Recollections -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 00:13:26 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Historical Recollections -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 00:27:04 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Historical Recollections -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:29:36 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- More History -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 04:52:35 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Locusts and wild honey -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:15:41 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Locusts and wild honey -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:07:31 (EST)
___gumbet -:- Re: Locusts and wild honey -:- Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)

Brian -:- Good Old Paradise -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:47:59 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Good Old Paradise -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:50:10 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Good Old Paradise -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:55:25 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Good Old Paradise -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:57:13 (EST)

Diver Dan -:- Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:17:01 (EST)
___David in the twilight zone -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:23:36 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:40:58 (EST)
___Miss'Y' -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:44:14 (EST)
___Dan -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:47:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:51:29 (EST)
___Me Again -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:56:20 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:58:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:03:21 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:09:17 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Is there anybody out there -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:09:34 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Our Fundamental Confusion -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:34:47 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Our Fundamental Confusion -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:46:11 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Our Fundamental Confusion -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 11:53:32 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Our Fundamental Confusion -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 14:28:06 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Reciprocal altruism -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:36:28 (EST)
___Nigel -:- slightly smutty post... -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:41:21 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Reciprocal altruism -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:07:19 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Reciprocal altruism -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 20:41:13 (EST)

Mike Fronke -:- Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:34:10 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:43:30 (EST)
___Mike Fronke -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:01:51 (EST)
___StillCrazy -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:13:06 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:17:34 (EST)
___Mike Fronke -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:31:20 (EST)
___Mike Fronke -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:42:36 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:50:04 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 21:01:20 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:58:03 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:34:21 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:14:36 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 06:20:55 (EST)
___Sorry I meant: -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 06:22:53 (EST)
___StillCrazy -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:04:57 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:11:15 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:35:45 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 16:28:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:45:30 (EST)

Miss 'Y' -:- Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 00:47:21 (EST)
___Ms. Katie -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 21:33:28 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:37:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:58:05 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:44:10 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:10:29 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 04:32:22 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 07:46:33 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 09:49:07 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who is Miss 'Y' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 21:43:01 (EST)

a premie -:- love -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:15:27 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: love -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:22:45 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: love -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 11:58:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: love -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:14:44 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: love -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 20:44:26 (EST)

Nigel -:- Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 21:28:27 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:23:21 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:47:54 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:57:17 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:28:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:35:26 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:38:26 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:46:18 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 12:00:37 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Facts please, anyone? -:- Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:01:17 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Facts after all... -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 02:38:06 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- A few more tidbits -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 08:28:57 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- The 'techniques' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 09:02:41 (EST)
___eb -:- Re: The 'techniques' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 12:01:33 (EST)
___John K -:- Re: The 'techniques' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 12:58:09 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The 'techniques' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:38:46 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: The 'techniques' -:- Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:51:05 (EST)



Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:29:09 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: NOTE: Forum Reset Tomorrow AM
Message:
I checked the archive that I ran earlier and found that Paradise has eaten another index. It's not coming back, so I'll just do a complete reset of the database in the morning about 7:00 (EST). The archive should be online soon afterwards.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Our Fundamental Confusion - A Reprise
Message:
Hi: I'm reposting this primarily because Jim hasn't had a chance to respond. I also have Nigel's excellent post if anyone wants a riprise of that? To those interested: A recent exchange occurred between Jim, Mili, myself and a few others concerning some sort of 'basic confusion' regarding the problem of reconciling rationality and morality. Jim seemed to pull a rabbit out of a hat with the assertion that 'reciprocal altruism' relegated all moral decisions to rational motives. This point of view is supported by research and analysis in the field of 'evolutionary psychology.' To my way of thinking, the field of cognitive psychology offers some promising insights into this problem, but it is premature, to say the least, to represent the 'central problem of modern moral philosophy' (David Gauthier) as solved by the Evolutionary Psychologists. There is an excellent review of the development of this line of argument in this week's Economist. One of the things the article points out is that evolutionary psychology developed out of the research of Noam Chomsky regarding a 'language organ,' that is inherited and continues to develop throughout life. The evolutionary psychologists used Chomsky and Fodor's 'The Modularity of the Mind' (MIT Press) as the prototype for a theory about the relationship between perception and the development of virtue and morality. It appears to me that evolutionary psychology is a very promising approach, but it is not without problems. The following three paragraphs for The Economist present what I think may be the most serious of these, which I present in the interest of objective dialogue, and with apologies to Jim. 'Evolutionary psychologists often liken the mind to a Swiss Army knife. It contains a large number of purpose-built tools, each designed for a quite specific purpose. But this picture prompts an obvious question. Who, or what, is deciding when to open which blades? Don’t you need some central intelligence to orchestrate the overall operation? Some evolutionary psychologists say no. But, while that may be true of other animals, it makes little sense for humans. For one thing, you seem to need a central intelligence to understand human moral reasoning. [emphasis added] Even if your modules incline you towards sexual and racial discrimination, for example, it does not follow that such discrimination is either inevitable or justified. If humans are just a collection of modular reflexes, how is it that they can correct their inclinations? Humans seem to need some mental faculty that can stand back from modular promptings and tell them how to do better. There are less elevated examples of people monitoring the outputs of their purpose-specific mental modules. You are often quite aware that your visual system is fooling you: for example, when you look at trick drawings, or indeed when you watch television. If it is possible to question modular inclinations in this way, there must be some place in the mind which transcends the modules. To insist that there is more to the mind than modules is not to deny humans’ animal heritage: no doubt a person’s central intelligence is itself an evolutionary product of the past. But it does mean that evolutionary psychology, like its predecessors, is in danger of ignoring the very thing that makes humans different from other animals. Perhaps evolutionary psychologists will soon shift their focus away from peripheral modules, and start contributing to an understanding of the really hard biological problem of the structure and function of the central intellectual abilities. Until then, they are unlikely to shed more than a sidelight on the human mind or to show people much about why they live the way they do.' -'MOREOVER Biology Isn’t Destiny' The Economist, Feb. 14-20, 1998
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:25:11 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Historical Recollections
Message:
Boy, that 'real and fake devotion' segment got a lot of discussion going. So, I am encouraged to start another one. This is somewhat related. I saw some discussion about the 'evolution' of Maharaji and premies, supposedly towards more maturity. I thought it might be appropriate to present some historical events having to do with the changes over the years and others should feel free to kick in additional details. I received knowledge in 1973, went to Guru Puja in London, moved into the ashram and then there was Millennium, which was a real bust for DLM. I recall in my knowledge session, for the first time, the Mahatma said I had to dedicate my life to Maharaji and say that I did BEFORE I could receive knowledge. Like most people, I wanted it bad enough to say that, even though I recall being surprised that I was hearing this for the first time. Nevertheless, until about 1975, Maharaji was presented as god, no ifs ands or buts about it. But the emphasis was on the practice of knowledge: satsang, service and meditation, and obeying Maharaji's commandments, including that we should 'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' This basically translated into 'do not think, at least don't ever think critically about M or the cult.' So, I didn't. I went to satsang every night, service every day, meditation morning and night, arti morning and night, occasional festivals with darshan. I basically abandoned my entire life, including friends and family, career, education, etc. M wore Krishna outfits at programs, but wasn't dancing. Even for some period after the Millennium fiasco, most of the premies I knew really thought M would bring peace to the world and that the entire world would receive knowledge, war would end, hunger would end, and we would get to serve god incarnate who was responsible for this. Even though I moved into the ashram to totally dedicate myself, at that time, I think I believed I was devoting as much to the mission of helping the world and mankind, as I was devoting my life to Guru Maharaj Ji personally. As noted below, that really changed later. In 1974, at age 16, Guru Maharaj Ji married an airline stewardess. He did a few programs. Things were about the same, except the holy family was excommunicated. Their pictures came down from the altars we had in every room. In 1975, Premlata was born, and there were almost no programs. I lived in the ashram, and I did not see Maharaji from November 1974 in Toronto, until the Orlando festival in November 1975, for an entire year. The focus was still on guru as god, the practice of knowledge, and world peace, but that was sort of fraying around the edges at that point, because anyone could see it wasn't happening. 1976. Major change. In the ashrams, we started to be encouraged to grow up a little. We even did things like encounter groups and premies began to get into other things besides M and the practice of K. But it was almost considered okay. At one point a directive came from Denver that we should start referring to M as a 'humanitarian leader' instead of 'the lord of the universe.' Quite a change. I didn't think much about this; I just thought it was yet another attempt to try to make Maharaji more relatable to ordinary people, and there had been dozens of attempts to do that previously, all failures. Still hardly any programs. But the change was bigger than that. In the Summer of 1976, the guru did a U.S. tour in about four cities. I recall going to the program in Denver. It was very different from the Orlando program. No krishna outfit. Maharaji's satsang was very, shall we say, 'toned-down.' Instead of a darshan line, there was a sort of 'receiving line' and we filed by Maharaji and kind of bowed our heads. I didn't know what to make of it. During this period droves of people moved out of the ashrams. People got married, went back to school, re-connected with their families, etc. Many ashrams closed, satsang attendance dropped dramatically, and there were no other programs. AND, donations to DLM and Maharaji virtually dried up. [According to Mishler, M was going along with the whole idea of turing him into a humanitarian meditation teacher and getting rid of the dedication stuff. But, as the droves of ashram residents left, according to Mishler, Maharaji realized that he would lose most of his devotees, and also his sizable income, which he had gotten used to spending. The ashram residents were his largest single source of income.] [ Later on just saying the year '1976' among premies denoted being 'spaced out.' And Maharaji began commenting later that what happened in 1976 was really bad, and all the premies fault, taking no responsibility himself at all.] I hung on in the ashram. Got sent to Boston, the community coordinator announced the day after I got there that he had gotten a premie in the communnity pregnant, and was getting married. I was kind of freaked. I took the ashram vows of poverty, chastity and obedience very seriously. Time went on, and, apparently, M decided to take a hard right and go in the opposite direction, to 'total dedication and surrender.' In December, 1976, there was a program in Atlantic City, sparsely attended, and Maharaji wore the Krishna outfit, gave darshan (the old way) and we sang arti to him. The satsang was all about devotion. Beginning in early 1977, M started doing programs every 22 days or so: Portland, Denver, the first Holi festival in Miami, etc. Lots of darshan, krishna outfits, and lots of satsang about dedication and surrender. A lot of premies started coming back, more people began going to the programs, but many people had left for good. By the end of 1976, Mishler had left. Thus began, what I call the 'devotional catholic period' of Guru Maharaj Ji. 'Devotion and surrender' were the primary focuses of what M talked about [and then of course, that's what the premies and the initiators talked about] and it lasted until about 1982 or so. As I mentioned below, in the satsang I quoted earlier from Christmas, 1979, Maharaji did not even about knowledge, meditation, or anything besides devotion. That was the goal, that was what the path was about, not knowledge, not realization, it was about the opportunity to surrender 100% to Guru Maharaji. This is when all the premies talked about 'longing' and 'loving' Maharaji all the time. Durgle Ji (that is what a lot of premies called her) gave sickening love satsangs at programs. Lots of talk of lotus feet. Maharaji made a bunch of western initiators during this period, some of whom were REALLY strange. People began moving back into the ashrams, but it was more selective this time. You had to be approved and there was even a novitiate program set up in San Antonio for people to go through. If you had a debt you couldn't move in. You had to be interviewed by people like David Smith. Between 1977 and 1980 thousands of people moved into the ashrams and turned over all their money. At this time as well, a p.o. box was set up in Malibu for donations to be made directly to Guru Maharaj Ji. All the satsang by M and the premies was mostly about dedication, devotion and surrender to Maharaji. Nobody talked about bringing peace to the world. It was Maharaji that it was all about. I had a real hard time during this period, because I was never attracted to Maharaji, and I felt guilty about that. The programs got more and more devotional, worship programs, really. Maharaji began dancing, sometimes bare-chested at the end of each night. Very bizarre. We sang, in addition to arti, devotional love songs to him. The programs got bigger and more elaborate. Big Holi festivals in the Orange Bowl, Hans Jayanti in that swamp in Kissimee, international festivals, etc, and endless programs at the Miami Beach Convention Center. . The drumbeat for total dedication was rampant, and people were literally harassed to move into the ashrams, and, once in, to fill out initiator applications. Maharaji did ashram meetings at programs for the ashram residents. We felt special. M told us we were the most fortunate to be able to live in the ashrams and that all kinds of terrible things would happen to us if we left. Most people didn't leave. But at this same time, the supply of aspirants nearly dried up. Propogation was almost nil, because the cult looked like what it was, a society of people worshipping a fat little guy with a penchant for wearing crowns, who was fabulously wealthy while the premies lived in poverty and debt, and who danced around in costumes while the premies went nuts, and they lined up by the thousands to kiss his feet. That scene was unattractive to all but a very small handful of people, and many of those were kind of nutty. After the 70s counter-culture era was over, this type of thing just didn't sell. Also, around this time Maharaji decided he wanted a Boeing 707 aircraft purchased and completely rennovated luxuriously for his personal use. I won't go into the details of this, but it was a REAL trip. Millions were raised to finance this thing and hundreds of premies relocated to Miami to work on the plane. M was very personally involved in it. He also got more residences. He had one in Malibu, one in Miami Beach, England, Australia, India, at least. Anyhow, at some point after that, maybe in the mid-80s, from what I understand, M stopped talking much about that devotional stuff. He forbade the premies from giving satsang. He fired all but a few of the intitators. He toned it all down, but it appears of late the devotion thing is in full swing again, with dancing, kissing feet and devotional love songs as part of the package. This has gotten too long. Comments? Important events I missed?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:53:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Historical Recollections
Message:
One final thing. In the States at least, the ashrams were all closed in 1983. Many of the ashrams were terribly in debt from donations to the plane, donations to Guru Maharaj Ji personally, and the cost of going to all the programs. I know one premie who had to take part of the debt, when the ashram closed. The residents had to divide up the debts and pay them off on their own. She had to pay off, on her own after moving out, $20,000 in debt, even though she had lived in the ashram only a couple of years. Neither Maharaji or the mission took any responsibility for these debts, despite the large sums he had made off the ashrams over the years.. And, also, at some point, the guru changed his name from Guru Maharaj Ji to 'Maharaji'. From what I can tell he doesn't use the word 'guru' anymore.
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 00:13:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Historical Recollections
Message:
Joe, I remember going to that Holi festival in Miami in 1977. (I think I might have been at that Atlantic City program too, but I'm not sure). I drove to Miami with my boyfriend who was a former ashram premie who had moved out about a year before. I don't remember the program being real devotional (I think by this point I had stopped listening to Maharaji's satsang, just like a lot of other premies) but I know that my boyfriend got all worked up about moving into the ashram again, etc., so it probably was. We broke up shortly thereafter - we were just going in totally different directions. We hardly spoke to each other the whole time we were there and on the whole ride back to DC because we just couldn't communicate about Maharaji and Knowledge and the whole experience. It was the most important thing to him, and it really wasn't to me any more. My strongest recollection of that Holi festival was pulling up in front of the hall where it was being held in Miami, seeing all the premies standing out front and wanting to turn around and drive straight back to DC. I actually said that to my boyfriend and he thought I was crazy. If I'd been alone or with a like-minded person, I think I would have done it (it WAS a crazy idea but I think it resulted from a strong impulse for self-preservation). Anyway, I felt really alienated during the festival (even the Holi part, which a lot of people I know liked) and left DLM shortly thereafter. (I guess that was a good time to leave, wasn't it?)
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 00:27:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Historical Recollections
Message:
JW: I concur on everything up through 1976. After that I lost touch. One thing you didn't mention is the metaphysical satsang about the 'evil mind': the enemy of mankind... the Devil. This thing had a grip on us, and the only way out was Knowledge. Without it you were doomed. Anything you did that didn't meet the social criteria mean that you were 'in your mind,' Oddly, the Earhardt Seminars sort of had the same approach, and quite a few premies took EST. I went through that in Orange County. I remember around that time, in 1974, a male premie shot and killed a female premie in a Florida ashram. That really shocked me, and I began to be more aware of some of the social tensions in the community. -Scott
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:29:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Historical Recollections
Message:
Joe, I remember going to that Holi festival in Miami in 1977. (I think I might have been at that Atlantic City program too, but I'm not sure). I drove to Miami with my boyfriend who was a former ashram premie who had moved out about a year before. I don't remember the program being real devotional (I think by this point I had stopped listening to Maharaji's satsang, just like a lot of other premies) but I know that my boyfriend got all worked up about moving into the ashram again, etc., so it probably was. We broke up shortly thereafter - we were just going in totally different directions. We hardly spoke to each other the whole time we were there and on the whole ride back to DC because we just couldn't communicate about Maharaji and Knowledge and the whole experience. It was the most important thing to him, and it really wasn't to me any more. My strongest recollection of that Holi festival was pulling up in front of the hall where it was being held in Miami, seeing all the premies standing out front and wanting to turn around and drive straight back to DC. I actually said that to my boyfriend and he thought I was crazy. If I'd been alone or with a like-minded person, I think I would have done it (it WAS a crazy idea but I think it resulted from a strong impulse for self-preservation). Anyway, I felt really alienated during the festival (even the Holi part, which a lot of people I know liked) and left DLM shortly thereafter. (I guess that was a good time to leave, wasn't it?) You certainly did leave at a good time, Katie. It got REALLY weird after that. In my opinion, Maharaji realized around this time that he really wasn't going to bring peace to the world and maybe he wasn't really god. So the cult sort of turned in on itself. I think to prove to himself that he was someone important, Maharaji began demanding grandiose things, like a Boeing jet, that had to be reconditioned by premies. [Guru Maharaj Ji got so into it that at one point, when they were considering some fabric to be used for something on the plane, Maharaj Ji suggested that premies actually WEAVE the fabric to be used.] I think he had darshan lines a lot for the same reason, to prove to himself that he was a deity. Same thing with big, devotional programs. And for the same reason, he really demanded total, 100% dedication from the premies. His satsangs also got more and more heavy, with often quite a lot of anger. I think that was his frustrations also coming out. It was not a fun time to be a premie, if you ask me. Lots of fear throughout. I must have been like your boyfriend at the Holi 1977 festival, however. I was very into the re-dedication that was going on. I recall they held the actual colored-water festival at a park in South Miami Beach, and they used sprayers, kind of like what you woiuld use to wash a car. At later Holis, Guru Maharaj Ji got into those huge fire hoses and we held the program in the Orange Bowl. As they got more elaborate, I found it harder and harder to relate to them. It seemed like a weird rock concert and made no sense.
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 04:52:35 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: More History (Re: Historical Recollections)
Message:
here is a basic canvas for what I consider very significant historical events (in m’s world anyway) from the 80s until now. 1/ Closing of ashrams and DLM (early 80s). End of Holi and darshan in west. 2/ DLM becomes EV (84-85) : cosmetic changes. M takes power in the organization. M establishes his own office, takes decisions. Local co-ordinators/organizers become ‘contacts’ for his private office. M holds series of k reviews internationally (Rejoices, etc) with all the premies (to establish his ascendancy over mahatmas/initiators/instructors). 3/ Part time/full time instructors era : 70s-80s 4/ Jets era : m travels much more than before, very important financially, lots of fundraising and pressure to get the money. Lear Jet, Gulf Stream 4. Elan Vital Foundation (Swiss) becomes one of m’s financial organization’s core. 5/ Lands established : La Tierra del Amor, Amaroo, India (1980), Nepal (1997). Lots of construction, supposedly m’s base for the future. 6/ 90s : Video system, no satsang, all conferences get everywhere, professional editing, in the US & in India. Rôle of Visions. 7/ M gives k himself, no instructors involved anymore. Lots of Indian mahatmas fired. Darshan again in west. Propagation with videos, even in India. 8/ 90s : new international underground organization (unofficial). M doesn’t rely only on EVI & local Evs, but also on an international staff. Lots of workshops to develop this new system. Beginning of use of group dynamic techniques.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:15:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Locusts and wild honey
Message:
Hi: Not to change the subject, but what's the story there? Is eating bugs more spiritual if they are sugar-coated, or was the honey sanctified? Never mind... Just wanted to see if there's anything we won't talk about on this site... Scott
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:07:31 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Locusts and wild honey
Message:
Hi: Not to change the subject, but what's the story there? Is eating bugs more spiritual if they are sugar-coated, or was the honey sanctified? Never mind... Just wanted to see if there's anything we won't talk about on this site... Scott Hi There, Is there anybody out here who has found the real LORD? The one who paid the ultimate price for our salvation? The WORD incarnate? 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.' The Truth will stand on its own. The Truth is FREELY available to anybody that wants/desires has a real thirst for the well within us all that is unending, if we believe in Jesus the Christ as our personnel savior. Gods Peace
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Date: Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)
Poster: gumbet
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Locusts and wild honey
Message:
Hi: Not to change the subject, but what's the story there? Is eating bugs more spiritual if they are sugar-coated, or was the honey sanctified? Never mind... Just wanted to see if there's anything we won't talk about on this site... Scott Hi There, Is there anybody out here who has found the real LORD? The one who paid the ultimate price for our salvation? The WORD incarnate? 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.' The Truth will stand on its own. The Truth is FREELY available to anybody that wants/desires has a real thirst for the well within us all that is unending, if we believe in Jesus the Christ as our personnel savior. Gods Peace What is a 'personnel savior?' Is that someone who comes in an organizes a union or something for employees? I know where I work we really need someone to save OUR personnel.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:47:59 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Good Old Paradise
Message:
Well, as you can plainly see (or not see in this case) Paradise is on the fritz again. I just ran another archive, so the posts are safe, but can't contact them until the morning to whine about this newest glitch. They will probably already have it fixed by that time. Newbies to the forum are now official Paradise veterans.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:50:10 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Good Old Paradise
Message:
Well, as you can plainly see (or not see in this case) Paradise is on the fritz again. I just ran another archive, so the posts are safe, but can't contact them until the morning to whine about this newest glitch. They will probably already have it fixed by that time. Newbies to the forum are now official Paradise veterans. I was just starting to appreciate what Robinson felt like before Carusoe!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:55:25 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Good Old Paradise
Message:
Now you know how I feel when I reset the database and post the lone message :) I always feel like I just yanked everyone's plug...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Good Old Paradise
Message:
Now you know how I feel when I reset the database and post the lone message :) I always feel like I just yanked everyone's plug... Ouchhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:17:01 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Not sure if the web master archived or if I'm in the twilight zone every post just disappeared without a trace ? Is it just me and my server I'll see if this post even appears???????????..................
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:23:36 (EST)
Poster: David in the twilight zone
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Everything has just disappeared before my very eyes. It's as if it was all an illusion!! And nobody got to read my profound last post about tribal evolution.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:40:58 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: David in the twilight zone
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Was it something that was said here? Who's really watching this site??Hey maybe I'll wake up & it will be time for arti and the last 20 years was only one night's slumber during eternity!???????????I wish!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:44:14 (EST)
Poster: Miss'Y'
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Was it something that was said here? Who's really watching this site??Hey maybe I'll wake up & it will be time for arti and the last 20 years was only one night's slumber during eternity!???????????I wish! Ibetter assume both Idetities with the present head count out there! What were the words to that song again????Helloooooooo!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:47:31 (EST)
Poster: Dan
Email:
To: Miss'Y'
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Was it something that was said here? Who's really watching this site??Hey maybe I'll wake up & it will be time for arti and the last 20 years was only one night's slumber during eternity!???????????I wish! Ibetter assume both Idetities with the present head count out there! What were the words to that song again????Helloooooooo! Better take on a 3'rd name tonight,Hmmmm never alone with a scz.... wish I could get my spell checker working!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:51:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Was it something that was said here? Who's really watching this site??Hey maybe I'll wake up & it will be time for arti and the last 20 years was only one night's slumber during eternity!???????????I wish! Ibetter assume both Idetities with the present head count out there! What were the words to that song again????Helloooooooo! To Dan, David, the highly dubious Miss 'Y' & all - This happened once before because of some kind of screw-up at Paradise (the company who hosts the forum.) I doubt that Brian archived without posting an introductory post. I'm hoping that Paradise has the posts saved somewhere - last time they did. But one never knows. I've let Brian know what's up. We probably have to start a new forum from here though - so repost anything you think was lost if you can remember what it was. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:56:20 (EST)
Poster: Me Again
Email:
To: Dan
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Was it something that was said here? Who's really watching this site??Hey maybe I'll wake up & it will be time for arti and the last 20 years was only one night's slumber during eternity!???????????I wish! Ibetter assume both Idetities with the present head count out there! What were the words to that song again????Helloooooooo! Better take on a 3'rd name tonight,Hmmmm never alone with a scz.... wish I could get my spell checker working! Hey if I Knew it was going to be like this visiting the forum I could have stay in my own mind and also on the other side of things given myself satsang? Ahh nothing ever changes! Because of my great typping ability maybe in the 20 min. it takes to type this post ,things will be back to norm or whatever?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 22:58:07 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Not needed. But if we are going to repost stuff... You are confused, Mili. Ahhh... that takes me back...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:03:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Not needed. But if we are going to repost stuff... You are confused, Mili. Ahhh... that takes me back... Sorry, I meant to re-post if anyone wanted to restart a thread (such as 'Brian's Fundamental Confusion' or 'High Noon at the Ex-Premie Org. Corral') from the previous forum. Thanks for archiving by the way.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:09:17 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Not needed. But if we are going to repost stuff... You are confused, Mili. Ahhh... that takes me back... To Mili its ok this site hosts both confused ,clear's and those that think, those that feel ,those that doubt,those that believe ,those that know ,those that think they know,wish they new,experianced it,faked it ,embrace it,deny it ,love it,hate it and every possible combination there in ,cause we are all just human beings try our best!! & as it say's 'Anything & Everything' Dan
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 23:09:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there
Message:
Sorry, I meant to re-post if anyone wanted to restart a thread (such as 'Brian's Fundamental Confusion' or 'High Noon at the Ex-Premie Org. Corral') from the previous forum. OOOOoooh... you are MEAN to me! [snicker] Thanks for archiving by the way. Forum Maintenance - It's not just a job, it's an Adventure! Just think, if Millennium hadn't flopped, we'd be facing 1000 years of Paradise. Raises goosebumps, eh?
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:34:47 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Our Fundamental Confusion
Message:
To those interested: A recent exchange occurred between Jim, Mili, myself and a few others concerning some sort of 'basic confusion' regarding the problem of reconciling rationality and morality. Jim seemed to pull a rabbit out of a hat with the assertion that 'reciprocal altruism' relegated all moral decisions to rational motives. This point of view is supported by research and analysis in the field of 'evolutionary biology.' To my way of thinking, the field of cognitive psychology offers some promising insights into this problem, but it is premature, to say the least, to represent the 'central problem of modern moral philosophy' (David Gauthier) as solved by the Evolutionary Psychologists. There is an excellent review of the development of this line of argument in this weeks Economist. One of the things the article points out is the evolutionary psychology developed out of the research of Noam Chomsky regarding a 'language organ,' that is inherited and continues to develop throughout life. The evolutionary psychologists used Chomsky and Fodor's 'The Modularity of the Mind' (MIT Press) as the prototype for a theory about the relationship between perception and the development of virtue and morality. It appears to me that evolutionary psychology is a very promising approach, but it is not without problems. The following three paragraphs from The Economist present what may be the most serious of these, which I present in the interest of objective dialogue, and with apologies to Jim. 'Evolutionary psychologists often liken the mind to a Swiss Army knife. It contains a large number of purpose-built tools, each designed for a quite specific purpose. But this picture prompts an obvious question. Who, or what, is deciding when to open which blades? Don’t you need some central intelligence to orchestrate the overall operation? Some evolutionary psychologists say no. But, while that may be true of other animals, it makes little sense for humans. For one thing, you seem to need a central intelligence to understand human moral reasoning. [emphasis added] Even if your modules incline you towards sexual and racial discrimination, for example, it does not follow that such discrimination is either inevitable or justified. If humans are just a collection of modular reflexes, how is it that they can correct their inclinations? Humans seem to need some mental faculty that can stand back from modular promptings and tell them how to do better. There are less elevated examples of people monitoring the outputs of their purpose-specific mental modules. You are often quite aware that your visual system is fooling you: for example, when you look at trick drawings, or indeed when you watch television. If it is possible to question modular inclinations in this way, there must be some place in the mind which transcends the modules. To insist that there is more to the mind than modules is not to deny humans’ animal heritage: no doubt a person’s central intelligence is itself an evolutionary product of the past. But it does mean that evolutionary psychology, like its predecessors, is in danger of ignoring the very thing that makes humans different from other animals. Perhaps evolutionary psychologists will soon shift their focus away from peripheral modules, and start contributing to an understanding of the really hard biological problem of the structure and function of the central intellectual abilities. Until then, they are unlikely to shed more than a sidelight on the human mind or to show people much about why they live the way they do.' -'MOREOVER Biology Isn’t Destiny' The Economist, Feb. 14-20, 1998 -Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:46:11 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Confusion
Message:
Scott, Thanks for the post. I'm gonna read the article before I reply. Jim
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 11:53:32 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Confusion
Message:
A very simple experiment has been done which implies that for a species to survive long enough to evolve, it has to contain some sort of primitive 'moral' understanding. I will explain the experiment briefly: There are three types of organism. Type A always cooperates with every time of organism at all times. It is the ultimate in selflessness and does not seek to gain anything. Type B is the opposite. It seeks to gain all the time and will never cooperate with anything, whether they are of its own type or not. It always seeks to gain at the expense of everything else. Finally, type C will always cooperate until it is UNcooperated with. i.e. it will initially cooperate with types A B & C but when it realises that it's encountered a type B, it will never cooperate with that particular organism again. If you put these three basic types in any computer model and get them to perform enrichment seeking tasks, type C will ALWAYS predominate over the other two types. In an evolution model, type C will always have the greatest population and will hence me the norm for that organism species.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 14:28:06 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Confusion
Message:
A very simple experiment has been done which implies that for a species to survive long enough to evolve, it has to contain some sort of primitive 'moral' understanding. I will explain the experiment briefly: There are three types of organism. Type A always cooperates with every time of organism at all times. It is the ultimate in selflessness and does not seek to gain anything. Type B is the opposite. It seeks to gain all the time and will never cooperate with anything, whether they are of its own type or not. It always seeks to gain at the expense of everything else. Finally, type C will always cooperate until it is UNcooperated with. i.e. it will initially cooperate with types A B & C but when it realises that it's encountered a type B, it will never cooperate with that particular organism again. If you put these three basic types in any computer model and get them to perform enrichment seeking tasks, type C will ALWAYS predominate over the other two types. In an evolution model, type C will always have the greatest population and will hence me the norm for that organism species. Sir David: I think what you are describing is a variant of the 'iterated prisoner's dilemma' game. Douglas Hofstadter published a series in Scientific American in the 1980s, and 'PD' games have been a conventional part of this approach. The evolutionary psychologists also use this. The problems in translating this to a resolution of rationality with morality are not straightforward. If, for instance, you change the conditions so that the game is no longer iterated, or so that players can play for awhile and then 'exit' the outcome is not the same. The 'exit' problem is a big one. (As I type this the editor doesn't seem to be wrapping, so I'm not sure how this will appear.) -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:36:28 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Scott and everyone
Subject: Reciprocal altruism (Re: Our Fundamental Confusion)
Message:
I'm sorry this post is out of sync with the rest of the thread. The time lag between the UK and the US is a real pain the way it prevents many interesting 'real-time' conversations happening. re: evolutinary psychology We would be foolish to imagine that human behaviour wasn't largely shaped by evolution. The problems only begin when we try to point out the evolutionary origins and advantages of specific human behaviours (altruism, for example). And when it comes to trying to predict any individual's behaviour on the basis of that theoretical model, we might as well forget it. Jim correctly identifies 'reciprocal altruism' as a recognised phenomenon from the animal world that evolutionary psychologists cite as a basic mechanism underlying human selflessness. ('And in the end / the love you take / is equally to the love you make') He might also have mentioned 'kin selection', where an organism will act altruistically to help the passing-on of copies of its own genes carried by relatives. One of the first theorists in this area, WB Hamilton, was once asked 'Who would you sacrifice your own life for?' Hamilton replied 'Two brothers, four uncles, or eight cousins...' Siblings, uncles/aunts, and cousins share .5,.25, and .125 of a person's genotype, so according to kin selection theory, the sacrifice will have adaptive value. (Read Dawkins' 'Selfish Gene' or E.O. Wilson's 'Sociobiology' for a comprehensive outline of this approach) Both theories are useful to ethologists (or 'behavioural ecologists' as they are also known) who study animals in the wild, but present enormous problems when applied to humans. There are even instances of animal altruism that seem to confound the genetic-determinist line. For example: there is an island off the coast of Japan where a colony of macaque monkeys live alongside wild deer. The monkeys, like most primates spend hours grooming one another, whether related or not. This is reciprocal altruism. To the surprise of the scientists observing them, the monkeys have been found to also spend hours grooming the coats of the deer. They receive nothing in return for this outlay of time and energy, so you can only conclude that they must 'enjoy' the activity. Obviously it is the monkeys' grooming instinct that has predisposed them towards the behaviour, but you cannot say that macaques carry a 'deer-grooming' gene, or that the behaviour has any adaptive value. More so than macaques, humans display altruistic behaviour in far too many situations for either 'reciprocal' of 'kin selection' theory to be cited as the operational mechanism. Firefighters, Red-Cross volunteers, lifeboatmen, etc. will routinely risk their lives to help others; members of the public (even evolutionary psychologists) will rush into blazing buildings to rescue complete strangers; adoptive parents will devote years of selfless attention to the needs of biologically unrelated children... etc. etc. etc. etc. Since reciprocal altruism in animals requires that the 'pay-back' is GUARANTEED, and kin selection requires that the beneficiary of your actions carries your genes, neither theory can account for the behaviours in question - unless you classify them as 'deer-grooming' activities, ie, a kind of by-product of our biological disposition. (Stephen Jay Gould makes a strong case for a more generalised altruistic tendency - that owes nothing to either theory - in his essay 'Kropotkin was no crackpot', to be found in the excellent 'Bully for Brontosaurus'.) There are many common human behaviours that do not fit well with any 'adaptive cost-benefit' analysis: suicide, abortion, homosexuality, adoption, child abuse, masturbation, voluntary celibacy, bungee-jumping, martyrdom, stuffing your head with dangerous drugs, driving very fast in rush-hour traffic, and Russian roulette (to name but twelve). Evolutionary psychologists will either make 'special cases' for these (there has been much discussion of the value of 'gay genes'), or they will ignore them altogether. I would not argue that kin selection and reciprocal altruism had no role in our evolutionary development, but that they are comparatively weak factors in explaining much of our present behaviour. > Steven Pinker's 'How the Brain Works' is the most recent popular book to make the case for evolutionary psychology. It is reviewed (mercilessly) in the latest 'New Scientist' by Professor Steven Rose. Check out this webpage to read the review: http://www.newscientist.com/sciencebooks/reviews/howthemindworks.html Clearly, 'A rose by any other name would be no pinker...' Regards
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:41:21 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Eve Sykes
Subject: slightly smutty post... (Re: Our Fundamental Confusion)
Message:
Evolutionary psychologists even have a explanation for masturbation, namely, the 'Fresh Sperm' hypothesis. Mateless males build up a stock of unused sperm. Old sperm is less 'fit' than new sperm, so it is a case of 'ring out the old, ring in the new', as it were. (I don't know how evolutionary Psychologists would explain it were it ever discovered that women were also disposed towards that particular recreational activity) A friend was recently browsing one of the evolution websites when he found a forum discussing the 'fresh sperm' theory. He posted them thus: 'Humans masturbate for the same reason that dogs lick their bollocks: (a) because they CAN, and (b) because it's nice.' The point, if you've missed it, is that many behaviours survive not because they are selected FOR, but because they are NOT selected AGAINST. It is a big difference, and one that leads all sorts of people who ought to know better into drawing hasty conclusions. Last week he received an email from an American lady author asking if she could quote him in a book she was writing on the history of masturbation. I'll keep you posted... (if you're interested!)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:07:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Reciprocal altruism (Re: Our Fundamental Confusion)
Message:
Nigel: Thanks for the excellent post, especially the 'pinker rose' quip. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 20:41:13 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Reciprocal altruism (Re: Our Fundamental Confusion)
Message:
Nigel wrote: 'More so than macaques, humans display altruistic behaviour in far too many situations for either 'reciprocal' of 'kin selection' theory to be cited as the operational mechanism.' I would disagree with this. Humans evolved as tribal creatures. The tribe was all important and like a self sufficient organism. This tribal bonding went beyond mere family ties. A tribe which remained strong and intact was more likely to survive and produce offspring that survived to produce further offspring. Such a neccecityto keep a tribal group intact in order to survive would have meant that qualities such as self sacrifice would have been favoured. A selfish loner would not have survived and certainly his/her offspring wouldn't have. Our altruism was born of neccecity or rather it predominated because it ensured survival of the species. Ants also have this self sacrificing nature. Who would you carry out of the burning building first? The old woman or the young child? Our altruistic instincts seem to be inherantly evolutionary to me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:34:10 (EST)
Poster: Mike Fronke
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
I just stumbled on your 'retired' premie website and I am frankly amazed that you people have nothing better to do than sit around and debate about this. What did your former Master reveal the techniques of Knowledge to you for? To me, he gave me this Knowledge to feel that joy that resides within me. If you aren't willing to practice or listen to him anymore, then move on into the world and find something else. Otherwise, you are just stuck in the past. I received His Knowledge in 1982 and I plan on enjoying it and his company for as long as I possibly can. Hope I see some of you at future events!
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:43:30 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Mike: Some of us don't take things for granted. There, you have it. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:01:51 (EST)
Poster: Mike Fronke
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Mike: Some of us don't take things for granted. There, you have it. -Scott Scott: I don't take ANYTHING for granted. The bare truth is that His Knowledge works! If it doesn't work for you, then move on to something else. Why dwell on the past and try to confuse others with your doubts? --Mike Fronke
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:13:06 (EST)
Poster: StillCrazy
Email: Not Provided
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
I just stumbled on your 'retired' premie website and I am frankly amazed that you people have nothing better to do than sit around and debate about this. What did your former Master reveal the techniques of Knowledge to you for?

That's a very good question, one that you might do well to ponder. If you think it was purely for your benefit, you might think again.

To me, he gave me this Knowledge to feel that joy that resides within me. If you aren't willing to practice

I still 'practice Knowledge.'

or listen to him anymore,

I'm still willing to listen to him. I'm just not willing to believe what he says just because it's him who's saying it.

then move on into the world and find something else. Otherwise, you are just stuck in the past. I received His Knowledge in 1982 and I plan on enjoying it and his company for as long as I possibly can. Hope I see some of you at future events!

Most people seem to post here because they feel that following Maharaji is not harmless, and wish to alert others to the potential harm. I too planned to stick with Maharaji until death, but after 26 years, I found myself unable to continue. Maharaji says, 'Put your trust in that which is worthy of your trust.' I no longer feel Maharaji is worthy of my trust.

-Still
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:17:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Mike, I'm particularly pissed off because I spent the better part of eight years as a monk in Maharaji's ashram. I did that because he tricked me into thinking he was the Lord of the Universe, that this was the singularly momentous turning point in history when all mankind would realize that he was here. And why was he here? To save the world from illusion and destruction. Not a moment to lose, give all you've got and then some more. Dedicate, dedicate, trust 100 per cent, leave no room for doubt in your mind. Of course, that was all bullshit. Maharaji should have to answer for that. You got involved as all that ridiculous shit was coming to an end. It's not your story. Instead, you've just accepted this little religious ritual and enjoy it. Fair enough. But you've got no business telling others to 'move on.' What you should be doing, seeing as you care about him so, is asking Maharaji to settle old accounts and save his... sorry, I'm trying to keep from laughing as I type this... save his good name.
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:31:20 (EST)
Poster: Mike Fronke
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Jim: I could care less about saving the world. When I walked into my Knowledge session, it was not to become part of a group thing. I wanted to be saved from myself. I wanted to FEEL salvation. I did and I continue to feel it WHEN I allow myself to. I'm sorry that you remain pissed off but did you ever feel peace and clarity during those 8 years just through practicing Knowledge? The outward show will always be just that--outward. To me, it's the bare-boned inner show that truly reveals that which I need to connect with. I hope you feel better soon. --Mike Fronke
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:42:36 (EST)
Poster: Mike Fronke
Email:
To: StillCrazy
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
StillCrazy: Why should you trust anyone but yourself? I trust Maharaji because he showed me a way to find something wonderful within me. I only trust what he says when it resonates with what feels true in me. Most of the time, therefore, I trust him because it feels true to my heart. When he says something that doesn't ring true to me, I question it. I have no idea whether he is 'Lord of the Universe', and frankly I don't care! All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. Since what he revealed to me is trustable, and I trust myself to discriminate between reality and BS, I trust him. You should trust you too! --Mike Fronke
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 14:50:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Mike: Some of us don't take things for granted. There, you have it. -Scott Scott: I don't take ANYTHING for granted. The bare truth is that His Knowledge works! If it doesn't work for you, then move on to something else. Why dwell on the past and try to confuse others with your doubts? --Mike Fronke Mike: The truth is, we have moved on. We came back to this because it's incumplete, and because some of us feel GMJ is illegitimate. It's an obligation. So, which part of this dialog bothers you: that it is 'fruitless' or that it 'causes confusion?'
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 21:01:20 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
StillCrazy: Why should you trust anyone but yourself? I trust Maharaji because he showed me a way to find something wonderful within me. I only trust what he says when it resonates with what feels true in me. Most of the time, therefore, I trust him because it feels true to my heart. When he says something that doesn't ring true to me, I question it. I have no idea whether he is 'Lord of the Universe', and frankly I don't care! All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. Since what he revealed to me is trustable, and I trust myself to discriminate between reality and BS, I trust him. You should trust you too! --Mike Fronke Mike, This web site revealed knowledge to me, but I'm not going to say that it is my 'most precious resource to understanding this life.' If you think we are confusing others, just read 'Who is Guru Maharaji'...if you can find it. Be careful who you trust...you could end up dead.
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:58:03 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Dear Mike Any Tom, Dick or Harry could have given you those meditation techniques, it doesn't mean that such a person is a 'perfect master' or that you owe him your life, money, soul or anything else. There are many yogic and meditation techniques that give the same result and unlike GMJ there are no strings attached.
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:34:21 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Some people got a bit more from their association with M. Some even liked the Grateful Dead though I am sure you could find a cheaper substitute band. I can see that you relish a good bargain. But the generic brands just don't have that extra pizazz. CD
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:14:36 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
I guess the question is just how much you are willing to pay, you know the best things in life are free. If M had delivered what he promised he would, then I would still be hooked and singing Arti and this site would not exist.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 06:20:55 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
StillCrazy: Why should you trust anyone but yourself? I trust Maharaji because he showed me a way to find something wonderful within me. I only trust what he says when it resonates with what feels true in me. Most of the time, therefore, I trust him because it feels true to my heart. When he says something that doesn't ring true to me, I question it. I have no idea whether he is 'Lord of the Universe', and frankly I don't care! All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. Since what he revealed to me is trustable, and I trust myself to discriminate between reality and BS, I trust him. You should trust you too! --Mike Fronke All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. I presume you mean: 'All I believe is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life.' Really, what do you and I know for sure? I am a bit tired of hearing premies who probably have no more understanding of Maharaji's relevance than I, speaking zealously as if they know the ultimate. I have had and practised Knowledge for 24 years and I don't think I have missed anything but I am now highly suspicious that the mechanisms involved are not so 'graceful' as I once believed. Yes, I trusted Maharaji for years too. Now I simply doubt that he plays as important a role as he and premies keeps suggesting. That is after, and as a result of my many years experience. It is very condescending (and typical) of uptight premies, like you, to tell those who are sincerely disenchanted and want to talk, to go get a life and shut up. (which is what we keep hearing here from the likes of you) You should trust you too! You would seem to be self-righteous to assume that others don't trust themselves etc. and that is why they have doubts about Maharaji. Why?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 06:22:53 (EST)
Poster: Sorry I meant:
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
StillCrazy: Why should you trust anyone but yourself? I trust Maharaji because he showed me a way to find something wonderful within me. I only trust what he says when it resonates with what feels true in me. Most of the time, therefore, I trust him because it feels true to my heart. When he says something that doesn't ring true to me, I question it. I have no idea whether he is 'Lord of the Universe', and frankly I don't care! All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. Since what he revealed to me is trustable, and I trust myself to discriminate between reality and BS, I trust him. You should trust you too! --Mike Fronke All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. I presume you mean: 'All I believe is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life.' Really, what do you and I know for sure? I am a bit tired of hearing premies who probably have no more understanding of Maharaji's relevance than I, speaking zealously as if they know the ultimate. I have had and practised Knowledge for 24 years and I don't think I have missed anything but I am now highly suspicious that the mechanisms involved are not so 'graceful' as I once believed. Yes, I trusted Maharaji for years too. Now I simply doubt that he plays as important a role as he and premies keeps suggesting. That is after, and as a result of my many years experience. It is very condescending (and typical) of uptight premies, like you, to tell those who are sincerely disenchanted and want to talk, to go get a life and shut up. (which is what we keep hearing here from the likes of you) You should trust you too! You would seem to be self-righteous to assume that others don't trust themselves etc. and that is why they have doubts about Maharaji. Why?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:04:57 (EST)
Poster: StillCrazy
Email: Not Provided
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
StillCrazy: Why should you trust anyone but yourself?

Are you serious here? What does 'The Triangle' mean to you?

I trust Maharaji because he showed me a way to find something wonderful within me.

How does this make him trustworthy?

I only trust what he says when it resonates with what feels true in me.

Maharaji is very good at telling me what I most would like to hear.

Most of the time, therefore, I trust him because it feels true to my heart. When he says something that doesn't ring true to me, I question it.

What about the times when he's not telling the truth, but you don't question it?

I have no idea whether he is 'Lord of the Universe', and frankly I don't care

Nor do I.

All I know is that he is my most precious resource to understanding this life. Since what he revealed to me is trustable, and I trust myself to discriminate between reality and BS, I trust him. You should trust you too! --Mike Fronke

You say you can tell the difference between truth and BS. Yet Maharaji's definition of 'illusion' is 'that which appears to be truth but in fact is not.' If it appears to be truth, what mechanism do you have to recognize it as illusion?

You say you trust Maharaji, yet exhort me to trust no one but myself. Mike, it is because of trusting myself that I have broken with Maharaji.

Here's the problem as I see it. In order to learn something new, it is necessary to trust the teacher. I am in no position to evaluate whether the new thing he is exposing me to is true or not. I may be able to find out later, by cross-checking, but when I'm learning it, I'm forced to trust that what the teacher is teaching me is true.

The basis for my trust is that the teacher has my best interests at heart. Maharaji has demonstrated many times in the past that he doesn't give a shit about me or what my interest are, best or otherwise. I have been in love with a character he created on stage, not with who Maharaji really is. Why should I trust (or worse yet, surrender to) a fictional character largely of my own making?

-Still


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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:11:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
I guess the question is just how much you are willing to pay, you know the best things in life are free. If M had delivered what he promised he would, then I would still be hooked and singing Arti and this site would not exist. I think you have this whole thing backwards. The way it really goes is - if you had delivered what you promised, namely, don't show it, give it a chance and keep in touch, then you would still be feeling that peace and bliss, still be singing Arti, and this site would not exist.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 13:35:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Mili: Your making me laugh. Your saying if I hadn't screwed up I could still be singing arti?!?! Wow, am I glad I screwed up! It is so wonderful to wake up in the morning and NOT sing arti! I know after 10 years of following his direction, I was disappointed in M as a spiritual teacher or guide or guru. Did he ever say anything more than 'go inside' and 'experience the beauty within'. The fact is, if you actually do 'go inside' it's not all that beautiful all the time. It can get very boring listening to the breath, and confusing listening to the mind jabbering away. The bottom line is - it's not all that fulfilling 'going inside'. Yes, sometimes it is nice, I agree. But I want more from life than 'nice'. Human beings are extremely complex. I never got the sense that M had a clue as to what was really going on inside of me or anyone else.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 16:28:25 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Jim: I could care less about saving the world. When I walked into my Knowledge session, it was not to become part of a group thing. I wanted to be saved from myself. I wanted to FEEL salvation. I did and I continue to feel it WHEN I allow myself to. I'm sorry that you remain pissed off but did you ever feel peace and clarity during those 8 years just through practicing Knowledge? The outward show will always be just that--outward. To me, it's the bare-boned inner show that truly reveals that which I need to connect with. I hope you feel better soon. --Mike Fronke What a condesending attitude...Just like I remember it from the old days. Nobodys' experience is valid except yours and the 'crew'?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:45:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Re: Maharaji & his Knowledge
Message:
Jim: I could care less about saving the world. When I walked into my Knowledge session, it was not to become part of a group thing. I wanted to be saved from myself. I wanted to FEEL salvation. I did and I continue to feel it WHEN I allow myself to. I'm sorry that you remain pissed off but did you ever feel peace and clarity during those 8 years just through practicing Knowledge? The outward show will always be just that--outward. To me, it's the bare-boned inner show that truly reveals that which I need to connect with. I hope you feel better soon. --Mike Fronke Why did you want to be saved from yourself? Were you threatening yourself? Did you kidnap yourself and send ransom notes to yourself? And did M and K show you how to avoid yourself? And why would you want to do that? But I agree with Jim, you missed the most outrageous cultish parts of the cult. Now the cult is less cult-like, but may be becomming more of a cult-like cult again. If the trip was just about 'peace and clarity,' and I think I got some of that, I doubt most of us exs would feel the way we do. I don't suppose, for example, you were ceibate for the past 8 years, now were you. And the 'outward show' was very much a part of the cult, instigated and promoted by the Big M himself. It wasn't just some piece of travelling theater. And I feel fine, by the way, but thank you for the patronizing get well comment anyway.
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 00:47:21 (EST)
Poster: Miss 'Y'
Email: 2bannounced
To: Everyone
Subject: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
The answer was posted down below the magic '50' ....a New York Piece by request of your friend and mine Jim. Sorry I was only joking tried to bring some levity into this heavy scene, my sense of humour, not appreciated by most I see, one day I'll get totally into my adult self! Me thinks, probbably 'NOT', been there done that ,no fun!This just a jokes, a great escape, theres always some truth in all that is said how ever meant?
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 21:33:28 (EST)
Poster: Ms. Katie
Email:
To: Miss 'Y'
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dear Miss Y (a.k.a. Diver Dan) - A question - are you both 'Miss Y' and 'a premie', or are you just 'Miss Y'? Is 'a premie' a totally separate person? Possibly you can see now why we don't like switching pseudonyms around her. Ms. K. P.S. Where did you live with Jim? We want details!
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:37:52 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Ms. Katie
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dear Miss Y (a.k.a. Diver Dan) - A question - are you both 'Miss Y' and 'a premie', or are you just 'Miss Y'? Is 'a premie' a totally separate person? Possibly you can see now why we don't like switching pseudonyms around her. Ms. K. P.S. Where did you live with Jim? We want details! Yes and No ! Yes I was for a day Miss'Y' to blow off some steam as well as illustrate by example what I dislike about the anonimity of this electronic medium, I must confess there was acertain freedom of not having to maintain my own concepts of me and the self imposing limits of what I can be & say while representing the me I project to others . No I have not posted on this forum as 'A'or 'THE' nor any other form in name as' Premie', but as in last nights post, I am considered by the Ex's as a Premie and probably as an Ex by the Premies ...alas a soul with out a flag, BUT I consider myself a lover and I know 'M' does as well so ultimatley the labels and pigeon holes and concepts others have of me ,matters not! I lived in the Buffalo premie house in the summer of 73 right after Guru Puja in London, recieved knowledge in New York City at the Flushing Medows program in July by Mahatma Fakiranand, worked on the devine paint crew the rest of the summer were I was given the nickname Diver Dan (always prenaming) or just a TV show Scottie used to watch? Got Deported no work visa , back to Canada got off the bus and moved directley into the Madison Ashram....then the Lowther Ashram over to the Sullivan Ashram (Ann Johnson house mom) then back to Lowther (Brian McDermot,Michael Dettmert,Gary Okendon,....) Ithink Jim & I were the only ones that have not become Instructors Jim for obvious reasons ,I can only dream!haha!Any way I think it was around 74 or so when Shri Jimbo appeared on the scene and the rest is history folks...........
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 22:58:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Thanks much, Dan (a.k.a. Miss Y) - We are always trying to dig up dirt about Jim around here, but, alas, he provides it all himself. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification, and I am sure others will also. Ms. Katie P.S. Isn't Flushing Meadows where they had the 1965 World's Fair? How did you get Knowledge there?
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dan, I lived with you a brief while in Toronto having come from the West. You moved out of the ashram that year, didn't you? Most of the time I knew you you were just a community premie. Hrmmph! Remember your candle-making business behind the centre in Ottawa? Dan, there were many, many nights when you didn't come to satsang. I've been meaning to talk with you about that. Also, were you really giving as much money as you could back then? There's always a chance to catch up. Brian McDermot was a freak. I once made the mistake of confessing that I'd done mushrooms in the short time I'd left the ashram (from the Toronto Hans Jayanti, '74, to Holi '75). He told me it would take seven years to get my devotion back. I guess he knew that I was always wondering if this, that or the next thing had severed my paper-cup telephone line to Maharaji. Boy, I'd like to talk with him now! Remember that time we drove a drive-away car, or whatever they're called, from a program in Miami back up to Ottawa? Stopping in Annapolis to drop off that pretty little premie we were giving a lift to? You weren't in the ashram but I was and those few days to myself, as it were, were really welcome. I went back to Annapolis years later and it was a bit of a disappointment. Believe it or not (though I never lie) they've paved some of those historic cobblestone roads. Dan, I don't know why the premies would think you're an Ex. Have you cancelled your subscription to And It Is Divine or something? Besides, Dan, we used to think you were an Ex years ago. Don't worry about it. So are you up to speed on anyone from Ottawa? I wonder what happened to Amory. Take care Jim
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 23:44:10 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam @idirect.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Thanks much, Dan (a.k.a. Miss Y) - We are always trying to dig up dirt about Jim around here, but, alas, he provides it all himself. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification, and I am sure others will also. Ms. Katie P.S. Isn't Flushing Meadows where they had the 1965 World's Fair? How did you get Knowledge there? Maharaji gave a 2 day program at the Flushing Meadows Stadium ,I believe It was torn down since , there was Knowledge sessions for several days after 100's were initiated at the time.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:10:29 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dan, I lived with you a brief while in Toronto having come from the West. You moved out of the ashram that year, didn't you? Most of the time I knew you you were just a community premie. Hrmmph! Remember your candle-making business behind the centre in Ottawa? Dan, there were many, many nights when you didn't come to satsang. I've been meaning to talk with you about that. Also, were you really giving as much money as you could back then? There's always a chance to catch up. Brian McDermot was a freak. I once made the mistake of confessing that I'd done mushrooms in the short time I'd left the ashram (from the Toronto Hans Jayanti, '74, to Holi '75). He told me it would take seven years to get my devotion back. I guess he knew that I was always wondering if this, that or the next thing had severed my paper-cup telephone line to Maharaji. Boy, I'd like to talk with him now! Remember that time we drove a drive-away car, or whatever they're called, from a program in Miami back up to Ottawa? Stopping in Annapolis to drop off that pretty little premie we were giving a lift to? You weren't in the ashram but I was and those few days to myself, as it were, were really welcome. I went back to Annapolis years later and it was a bit of a disappointment. Believe it or not (though I never lie) they've paved some of those historic cobblestone roads. Dan, I don't know why the premies would think you're an Ex. Have you cancelled your subscription to And It Is Divine or something? Besides, Dan, we used to think you were an Ex years ago. Don't worry about it. So are you up to speed on anyone from Ottawa? I wonder what happened to Amory. Take care Jim Jim the years I lived in Toronto was only in the Ashram I never lived in the community there not that it really matters , I was moved to the Ottawa Ashram from there for about a year or so when I started the candle business as a fund raising method ( Robert Gaffney & I used do do it in the Devine sales store in Toronto ) while still living in the Ashram in Ottawa ,as amatter of fact it was in Amory's basement, Then the business took off Peter Sanderson & I both moved out of the Ashram I later lived above the Center on Sommerset and latter behind the centre as you remember. Have not herd from Amory for years I got a email from Annie Wood's the first night I posted here,as well as Lucy other than that I have not heard from the Ottawa Premies at all. I talked to Doug Sage the other day on the phone ,said Steve Watson had over dosed.I understand Robert Gaffney lives out your way and runs a health food company? Say hi from me if you ever see him.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 04:32:22 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dan, I lived with you a brief while in Toronto having come from the West. You moved out of the ashram that year, didn't you? Most of the time I knew you you were just a community premie. Hrmmph! Remember your candle-making business behind the centre in Ottawa? Dan, there were many, many nights when you didn't come to satsang. I've been meaning to talk with you about that. Also, were you really giving as much money as you could back then? There's always a chance to catch up. Brian McDermot was a freak. I once made the mistake of confessing that I'd done mushrooms in the short time I'd left the ashram (from the Toronto Hans Jayanti, '74, to Holi '75). He told me it would take seven years to get my devotion back. I guess he knew that I was always wondering if this, that or the next thing had severed my paper-cup telephone line to Maharaji. Boy, I'd like to talk with him now! Remember that time we drove a drive-away car, or whatever they're called, from a program in Miami back up to Ottawa? Stopping in Annapolis to drop off that pretty little premie we were giving a lift to? You weren't in the ashram but I was and those few days to myself, as it were, were really welcome. I went back to Annapolis years later and it was a bit of a disappointment. Believe it or not (though I never lie) they've paved some of those historic cobblestone roads. Dan, I don't know why the premies would think you're an Ex. Have you cancelled your subscription to And It Is Divine or something? Besides, Dan, we used to think you were an Ex years ago. Don't worry about it. So are you up to speed on anyone from Ottawa? I wonder what happened to Amory. Take care Jim Jim the years I lived in Toronto was only in the Ashram I never lived in the community there not that it really matters , I was moved to the Ottawa Ashram from there for about a year or so when I started the candle business as a fund raising method ( Robert Gaffney & I used do do it in the Devine sales store in Toronto ) while still living in the Ashram in Ottawa ,as amatter of fact it was in Amory's basement, Then the business took off Peter Sanderson & I both moved out of the Ashram I later lived above the Center on Sommerset and latter behind the centre as you remember. Have not herd from Amory for years I got a email from Annie Wood's the first night I posted here,as well as Lucy other than that I have not heard from the Ottawa Premies at all. I talked to Doug Sage the other day on the phone ,said Steve Watson had over dosed.I understand Robert Gaffney lives out your way and runs a health food company? Say hi from me if you ever see him. Hi Dan I know a Steve Watson who lives in Florida, is now a lawyer. He used to be heavily into drugs and is now a follower of Guru Mayi. Do you think this is the same guy as the one you knew? all the best ex-mug
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 07:46:33 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email:
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Steve had bright red hair,lived in Toronto in the 70's .Ihope my info is wrong & yours correct!??? Thanks Dan
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 09:49:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dan, Unfortunately, I think I heard that about Steve as well. Yes, I'm pretty sure I did. Pete Sanderson's out here in Victoria. I stayed at his place for awhile some years ago. I'm afraid Maharaji's come between us.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 21:43:01 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Who is Miss 'Y'
Message:
Dan, Unfortunately, I think I heard that about Steve as well. Yes, I'm pretty sure I did. Pete Sanderson's out here in Victoria. I stayed at his place for awhile some years ago. I'm afraid Maharaji's come between us. I'd like to contact Peter would you know how? I asked this a few weeks ago do you, or any one else know where Ann Johnson is or can be reached? Any Buffalo premies or Ex's Know where Omar &Dorthey or Scotty & Chloe are today? How about Jim or Chuck Kaltwasser (NYC or Michigan of late? Thanks Dan
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:15:27 (EST)
Poster: a premie
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: love
Message:
sending unconditional love from that special place xxx
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 00:22:45 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: a premie
Subject: Re: love
Message:
Thank you, how could anyone refuse 'unconditional love'. If it is truly unconditional then I pray it will return to you seven fold.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 11:58:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: a premie
Subject: Re: love
Message:
WARNING - the following note may be considered to be 'negative' so be fore warned! Read at your own risk! Unconditional love? And what is that? If I remember correctly, it's love without any strings attached? Or is it love 'beyond' the 'ego'? What is that? And why would I want any? I think, and of course I might be temporarily insane, but I think that what I want is to be loved for who I am, and loved for what I do. Unconditional love to me sounds like 'meaningless' love. I know, God loves me 'unconditionaly', supposedly anyway. But so what? In other words God loves everyone and everything equally. But you see I am special. I want to be special. I don't want to be just one of the billion nameless and facelss masses! I want my God to love ME, to know ME personally. I never felt my guru ever did know ME personally. and I think that has a lot to do with why I left 'the guru'. I gave so much to him. I gave all my time, my energy, my life really, and I eventually got tired of not getting any personal attention from him. Anyway, I never felt that unconditional love you sent out. I feel something inside of me, but that's always been there, it has nothing to do with what you are sending out. But to look on the bright side, and to end on a positive note, I think it's very funny that you think you are actually 'sending' 'love' somewhere. So thanks for the laugh!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 18:14:44 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: a premie
Subject: Re: love
Message:
sending unconditional love from that special place xxx The words 'unconditional love' are just words. They sound nice, but if you try to put 'unconditional love' into reality, it's really quite dangerous. If your love really is 'unconditional' how much abuse will you put up with from whomever or whatever is the subject of that love. Should you stay in an abusive relationship because your love for the abusive person is 'unconditional?' Should you unconditionally, give and give, and have so little self esteem and you don't expect anything in return? Maybe because you think you are such a slug that you don't DESERVE anything in return? THAT is NOT love. That is a pretty sick ideal of some sort of mythical love. And excuse me, but it's also utter bullshit and a recipe for being taken big time. And I'll have to say I bought that piece of crap from Maharaji's cult as well. I should love unconcitionally-- The idea that you only experience love when you give it and not when you 'receive' it, so you should give it and expect nothing in return. And Maharaji, unless he has 'evolved' out of that recently, said over and over how insignificant, lost, confused and deserving of nothing, we human beings were, and that he created us, and that we didn't even have the right to look at him. And he never lifted even one of his chubby fingers to try to know virtually any of us as individual human beings. In the cult, I loved M unconditionally. I never expected anything, I just begged and prayed that M would find my love acceptable. Like John said, the truth was he didn't know I was alive and he didn't care. He just took, took, and took, and demanded more. And when you realize he didn't care, you feel real ripped off, and quite stupid, really. I hope I have enough respect for myself to ever fall for that particular, painful, scam again.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 20:44:26 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: a premie
Subject: Re: love
Message:
sending unconditional love from that special place xxx This little x-rated tidbit was a contribution from a different premie - so's not to be confused.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 21:28:27 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
There was some discussion around the start of the year about the scarcity of printed information about M available to the wider public. I have come across the following article in ‘An Encyclopaedia of Claims, Frauds, Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural’ by James Randi (1995). I admire Randi for his work in exposing fake psychics and charlatans of the paranormal, but am concerned by a number of factual innacuracies in this one article about M. The accurate information is also rather out of date (probably because it IS so hard for the the outside world to find anything). Whether we still practice K or otherwise, or whether or not we’d like to see M publicly exposed, it doesn’t seem to me to be in anybody’s interest for wrong information to be disseminated. I have annotated everything [in square brackets] that I believe to be incorrect, or I am otherwise not sure about. Can anybody help? I was thinking about emailing Randi’s web-site with the corrections, and pointing out the existence of this site. I am actually less bothered by the factual mistakes, than by the tone at the end of the piece which seems to imply M is just a spent force with no further influence in the world. If recent posts (JW’s and others) are anything to go by, the movement might even be heading back towards full-blown personality-cult status, so some up-to-date information could be useful for worried parents, acquaintances etc. Randi’s book is only a jokey, laugh-at-it-all thing, but could be useful just the same. (I don’t know whether it’s available in the States) > ‘Maharaj JI (1957? - ) ‘Leader of the Divine Light Mission, a cult that was brought with great success in 1971 to the United States. At one point, the mission boasted 45 ashrams in the United States alone, peopled with disciples who were promised that they would 'receive the knowledge' after a period of study and work, during which they gave all their earnings to the Maharaj Ji. [1] ‘The overweight teenage guru, addressed as 'Lord of the Universe' by his devotees, was driven about in a Rolls-Royce whenever he was not roaring down the street on one of his collection of high-powered motorcycles. ‘The mission had as its membership mostly middle-class young people, who were taught that rational thought is the supreme enemy and were urged to immediately commence meditation whenever the thinking process threatened to return. ‘The Maharaj Ji announced that the 'most significant event in the history of humanity' would take place, 'Millenium ‘73' at the Houston Astrodome. The arena was rented at a frightening price and admission was free, but only twenty thousand of the expected sixty thousand persons showed up. [2] It was a bust, especially financially. [3] ‘The Mission published a slick colour magazine titled And It Is Divine, and one issue featured psychic Uri Geller on the cover, during a time when the two superstars, it was rumoured, were planning to join forces [4]. It never happened. ‘Plans for a Divine City peopled only by mission members came and went [5]. 'Receiving the Knowledge' turned out to be a process of seeing 'heavenly lights' when pressing on the eyeballs, hearing 'blissful music' when the ears were stopped up, tasing 'divine nectar' when the head was thrown back with the tongue turned inward, and receiving a mantra nonsense word [6]. The sensory illusions were quite natural and easily understood physiological phenomena, the 'nectar' being simply nasal secretions dripping into the throat [7]. Only the very naive were convinced that they had been let in on some sort of celestial secret [ouch!!!!]. The big promise fizzled. ‘In 1974 Maharaj Ji married his secretary Marolyn Lois Johnson, who he had discovered was the reincarnation of the ten-armed, tiger-riding goddess Durga [8]. His mother revolted against this alliance and tried to regain her former position as female leader of the sect by announcing that her other son, Bal Bhagwan Ji, was therefore the divine head of the cult. Disillusionment set in, and in 1975 Maharaj Ji’s mother and brother sued him for their share of the wealth that had been accumulated [9]. Then everybody sued everyone else, and the Divine vanished when the light went out. ‘In 1981 [10], Maharaj Ji showed up uninvited at a rock concert at Glastonbury, England, driven in a white Rolls-Royce. He preached a few moments for a disinterested audience [11], and motored away when someone switched off the microphone. The god business is often not as enthusiastically supported as a god might wish. ‘Maharaj Ji has been variously reported as now living in Denver, Colorado, and in Australia [12]. There has not been a concerted effort to locate him’ __________ I remember reading Randi saying stuff like this way back when I was a premie, and I used to hate him for it. I still think it would be worth his while to try and sort his facts out. (But on the whole he has done a great service for humanity with his exposes of the rubbish-peddlers). Can anyone fill in the blanks? [1] (Giving of earnings). I know it happened, but it was never compulsory, was it? [2] (Millenium) [3] (Millenium) [4] (Geller & M) [5] (Divine City). Fascinating stuff. Was there ever such a plan? It was before my time. [6] (Mantra). I was sort of given ‘So Hung’, but I don’t think this was standard Knowledge procedure. [7] (Nectar). Not snot. I was told ‘if it tastes sweet, it is nectar. If it tastes salty, it is not’. [8] (Durga Ji). I never heard the reincarnation claim. [9] (Mataji’s lawsuit) [10] (Glastonbury). The festival was 1971, not 1981. [11] (Glastonbury). From future premies who were there, M spoke for quite a long time. [12] (Whereabouts)
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:23:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Nigel, You've just earned yourself a job as fact-checker for the new ex-premie magazine, 'If you see the buddha on the road...' There was indeed a plan for a City of Love and Light. It never got past San Antonio but I, as a humble premie, probably knew nothing compared to what JW (former co-ordinator) or Mr. Ex (former saint) did. Marolyn was indeed 'Durga Ji' but maybe Maharaji never really meant it. Can you imagine him levelling that little epithet at her as he cooed in love's fulfillment and then, afterwards, telling all the premies to call her that too? Now THAT's a fact that needs checking!
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:47:54 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
8- I heard that Durga was just a title- like Prem Rawat's title is 'Guru Maharaji' (Anyway how can you be married to the perfect master Guru Maharaji and be named Marolyn Johnson?) I never heard that reincarnation claim either. It sounds like Randi was just writing in a humorous/sarcastic style (you know,being cute). This, however is opinion, not fact. Sorry.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 22:57:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
There was some discussion around the start of the year about the scarcity of printed information about M available to the wider public. I have come across the following article in ‘An Encyclopaedia of Claims, Frauds, Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural’ by James Randi (1995). I admire Randi for his work in exposing fake psychics and charlatans of the paranormal, but am concerned by a number of factual innacuracies in this one article about M. The accurate information is also rather out of date (probably because it IS so hard for the the outside world to find anything). Whether we still practice K or otherwise, or whether or not we’d like to see M publicly exposed, it doesn’t seem to me to be in anybody’s interest for wrong information to be disseminated. I have annotated everything [in square brackets] that I believe to be incorrect, or I am otherwise not sure about. Can anybody help? I was thinking about emailing Randi’s web-site with the corrections, and pointing out the existence of this site. I am actually less bothered by the factual mistakes, than by the tone at the end of the piece which seems to imply M is just a spent force with no further influence in the world. If recent posts (JW’s and others) are anything to go by, the movement might even be heading back towards full-blown personality-cult status, so some up-to-date information could be useful for worried parents, acquaintances etc. Randi’s book is only a jokey, laugh-at-it-all thing, but could be useful just the same. (I don’t know whether it’s available in the States) > ‘Maharaj JI (1957? - ) ‘Leader of the Divine Light Mission, a cult that was brought with great success in 1971 to the United States. At one point, the mission boasted 45 ashrams in the United States alone, peopled with disciples who were promised that they would 'receive the knowledge' after a period of study and work, during which they gave all their earnings to the Maharaj Ji. [1] ‘The overweight teenage guru, addressed as 'Lord of the Universe' by his devotees, was driven about in a Rolls-Royce whenever he was not roaring down the street on one of his collection of high-powered motorcycles. ‘The mission had as its membership mostly middle-class young people, who were taught that rational thought is the supreme enemy and were urged to immediately commence meditation whenever the thinking process threatened to return. ‘The Maharaj Ji announced that the 'most significant event in the history of humanity' would take place, 'Millenium ‘73' at the Houston Astrodome. The arena was rented at a frightening price and admission was free, but only twenty thousand of the expected sixty thousand persons showed up. [2] It was a bust, especially financially. [3] ‘The Mission published a slick colour magazine titled And It Is Divine, and one issue featured psychic Uri Geller on the cover, during a time when the two superstars, it was rumoured, were planning to join forces [4]. It never happened. ‘Plans for a Divine City peopled only by mission members came and went [5]. 'Receiving the Knowledge' turned out to be a process of seeing 'heavenly lights' when pressing on the eyeballs, hearing 'blissful music' when the ears were stopped up, tasing 'divine nectar' when the head was thrown back with the tongue turned inward, and receiving a mantra nonsense word [6]. The sensory illusions were quite natural and easily understood physiological phenomena, the 'nectar' being simply nasal secretions dripping into the throat [7]. Only the very naive were convinced that they had been let in on some sort of celestial secret [ouch!!!!]. The big promise fizzled. ‘In 1974 Maharaj Ji married his secretary Marolyn Lois Johnson, who he had discovered was the reincarnation of the ten-armed, tiger-riding goddess Durga [8]. His mother revolted against this alliance and tried to regain her former position as female leader of the sect by announcing that her other son, Bal Bhagwan Ji, was therefore the divine head of the cult. Disillusionment set in, and in 1975 Maharaj Ji’s mother and brother sued him for their share of the wealth that had been accumulated [9]. Then everybody sued everyone else, and the Divine vanished when the light went out. ‘In 1981 [10], Maharaj Ji showed up uninvited at a rock concert at Glastonbury, England, driven in a white Rolls-Royce. He preached a few moments for a disinterested audience [11], and motored away when someone switched off the microphone. The god business is often not as enthusiastically supported as a god might wish. ‘Maharaj Ji has been variously reported as now living in Denver, Colorado, and in Australia [12]. There has not been a concerted effort to locate him’ __________ I remember reading Randi saying stuff like this way back when I was a premie, and I used to hate him for it. I still think it would be worth his while to try and sort his facts out. (But on the whole he has done a great service for humanity with his exposes of the rubbish-peddlers). Can anyone fill in the blanks? [1] (Giving of earnings). I know it happened, but it was never compulsory, was it? [2] (Millenium) [3] (Millenium) [4] (Geller & M) [5] (Divine City). Fascinating stuff. Was there ever such a plan? It was before my time. [6] (Mantra). I was sort of given ‘So Hung’, but I don’t think this was standard Knowledge procedure. [7] (Nectar). Not snot. I was told ‘if it tastes sweet, it is nectar. If it tastes salty, it is not’. [8] (Durga Ji). I never heard the reincarnation claim. [9] (Mataji’s lawsuit) [10] (Glastonbury). The festival was 1971, not 1981. [11] (Glastonbury). From future premies who were there, M spoke for quite a long time. [12] (Whereabouts) Actually, Nigel, I'm quite surprised at how ACCURATE that article is. A little outdated to be sure, and a couple of misstatements about the techniques. He's what I know: [1] Turning over all your earnings WAS compulsory if you lived in the ashram and I think that's what is referred to in the statement. The ashram residents. [2] I doubt even 20,000 showed up for Millennium, but that might be right. The astrodome was very empty. Not even half full. DLM went into debt due to Millennium by about $200,000, I think. [3] [4] Uri Geller was on the cover of an AIID in 1973, and there was a rumor that Geller was into M, but that never materialized. [5] Divine City was talked about at least until about 1975, as something that was going to happen, and an attempt was made to start one near San Antonio. It became a very large ashram and the novitiate for new ashram residents. It petered out about 1977. M raised the idea of a Divine City, more like a big farm, again at his ashram meeting at the Kissimee swamp in 1979. He said he was buying land in Florida for that purpose, but other of his 'needs' got in the way of that. Keep your eyes on Australia for more of this. [6] The techniques are a little off, but pretty damn close. and I agree with the physiological reasons that those things happened. [7] [8] The Durga thing and the reincarnation thing, believe it or not, it true. [9] The dispute with the family is absolutely true, including the lawsuit in India, which was setlled, but M lost the use of the DLM name, and lost bunch of the Indian properties. It's also true about Mata Ji pushing Bal Bagwan for PM after M married Marolyn at age 16, mainly so he could stay in the U.S. legally without his mother's permission. [In California, it used to be legal to marry at age 16 without your parents' permission, even though you can't enter into any other contract until age 18. So, getting married was the only way to stay in the U.S. legally without that old cow Mata Ji's permission, which wasn't gonna happen!] [10], [11] I never hard anything about the Glastonbury concert. Plus, M is pretty shy and fearful of appearing in situations that aren't COMPLETELY controlled, so I would doubt that happened. But if it was in 1971, that could be true. He was a little less paranoid then. [12] I don't think M has lived in Denver for 20 years. He might be in Australia sometimes, he has a residence there. He also has a residence in Malibu, used to have one in Miami, one in England, India, and maybe elsewhere, as well as apartments in Paris, Rome and maybe elsewhere. So, Randi got most of it right.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:28:31 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Joe, your corrections are all correct, with the exception of #11. I was in England at the time, and M. DID speak unannounced at the Glastonbury pop festival. Rainbows supposedly appeared in the sky either after or during, which was taken as a cosmic sign of his divinity by many, though not having been there myself I could not vouch for this.
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:35:26 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Joe, your corrections are all correct, with the exception of #11. I was in England at the time, and M. DID speak unannounced at the Glastonbury pop festival. Rainbows supposedly appeared in the sky either after or during, which was taken as a cosmic sign of his divinity by many, though not having been there myself I could not vouch for this. But that was 1971, not 1981, right?
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:38:26 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
JW, 'So, Randi got most of it right.' I'm with you. This also sounds like the DLM I knew and loved! I can't believe that people believed that Durga Ji was reincarnated. That silly little fact was surely kept from me. VP
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Date: Tues, Feb 17, 1998 at 23:46:18 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Nigel: Most of the stuff seems factually correct, but the smart ass tone is quite irritating. It's sort of like the stupid critiques of the Germans after the Nazi take-over. 'What were those idiots thinking? They're obviously not like the rest of us! Nothing for us to worry about.' Take: The sensory illusions were quite natural and easily understood physiological phenomena, the 'nectar' being simply nasal secretions dripping into the throat [7]. Only the very naive were convinced that they had been let in on some sort of celestial secret [ouch!!!!]. I didn't experience HN or nectar, so as far as I know they are either illusions or myths. I experienced a few very convincing things in 'music,' and there was nothing 'easily explained' about my experience of Light. You all know how critical I am. (Well, some do.) I still have no explanation for Light, though I remain open. I saw 'phosphenes' [sp??] prior to Knowledge. They didn't resemble light to me. Anon, said that David Lane conducted some experiments, but I haven't been able to find Lane's write-up. (His site is a little busy.) I'm still open to the possibility that Light is a perceptual trick of some kind, but it's not a simple one. The 'divine city' thing was pretty interesting. As I recall, there was quite a bit of talk about fulfilling the prophesies in Revelation: the 'city foursquare,' etc. This is slightly off the subject, but I was living in Oregon when Shri Rajneesh took over the town of Antelope. He packed the town council with his people by bussing in all the winos in the state. They changed the election laws after that. BOY were people pissed! I think they would have drawn and quartered the guy if they could have gotten their hands on him. I remember his right-hand-woman, 'Ma' something-or-other, sucking up to all the state legislators. Probably better GMJ didn't follow through on that one. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 12:00:37 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Joe, your corrections are all correct, with the exception of #11. I was in England at the time, and M. DID speak unannounced at the Glastonbury pop festival. Rainbows supposedly appeared in the sky either after or during, which was taken as a cosmic sign of his divinity by many, though not having been there myself I could not vouch for this. But that was 1971, not 1981, right? Yes, 1971, when M very first came to the 'West' and was something of a curiosity due to his age -- 13. Perhaps some English ex-premie might know more of the details. David? Nigel?
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Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 13:01:17 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Facts please, anyone?
Message:
Joe, your corrections are all correct, with the exception of #11. I was in England at the time, and M. DID speak unannounced at the Glastonbury pop festival. Rainbows supposedly appeared in the sky either after or during, which was taken as a cosmic sign of his divinity by many, though not having been there myself I could not vouch for this. Hi There is a great movie about the Glastonbury festival called 'Glastonbury Fayre' which actually shows GM at the festival speaking, with people pranaming and stuff. Apparantly everyone was so out of it on acid etc. that I'm sure a rainbow was the least interesting event:-) There is one funny bit in it where you see the organiser talking on the phone saying that the 'Maharishi' is on his way. I believe that a lot of people signed up as followers at that festival. all the best ex-mug
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 02:38:06 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Facts after all... (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Thanks all of you. Two conclusions: (1) I needn't bother with sending that email to Randi, (2) DLM was ever weirder than I remember! Joy & Ex-mug. You are both right about Glastonbury being 1971 and M being 13, and premies did sign up on the spot (or very shortly afterwards - I have met a few). think the film was made by JS (?) Pennebaker who also lmed the Isle of Wight festival in 1970, and it is a classic. They showed some of it on UK TV a few years ago, but the GMJ episode was cut extremely short. This was all well before my own DLM involvement, but I remember the buzz of excitement surrounding that festival. There were particularly auspicious signs in the heavens with some important conjunctions and stuff going on, and what with Glastonbury being this ancient mystical place, the organisers believed they were going to 'tap the universe', and built a huge pyramid to help things along. As a premie I later remembered those predictions, and even believed GMJ's arrival was some sort of fulfilment of them. Embarrassing. JW, thanks for the detailed reply. I knew nothing at all about 'Millenium' or the Divine City, the compulsory giving, the Geller stuff etc. And it will probably do no harm for others seeing it here for the first time. Scott, the Rajneeshi woman you refer to was Ma Sheela. I agree that Randi is condescending, but I think a little ridicule can jolt people into a new perception of things. I often wish my family and non-premie friends had showed me a little less respect when I was practising K. It might have got me out of the scene a whole lot sooner if they had challenged my beliefs to my face, poked fun at them even. I am with JW on a physiological basis for the meditation experiences. Something to do with what the perceptual centres of your brain get up to when sensory input is subdued or distorted. Thanks again everyone.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 08:28:57 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: A few more tidbits (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Nigel: I second everyone's correction of the Glastonbury episode. 1971 without a doubt. I also remember that he went to Mound Arberethe, which may have been the same event. Mound Arberethe is a big deal in Welsh/English mythology. It is supposed to be the place where Arthur will return. Also, Durga Ji was definitely considered to be the incarnation of a goddess, except by those premies attached to Mata Ji, who began to refer to her as 'Dirty Ji.' I think that may be why they dropped the whole thing so quickly. As for taking ridicule from my family, I think it would have just driven me away. I am open the there being a physiological basis for the meditation, but think it would have to involve some form of sophisticated perceptual distrortion. If someone explained it to me as though revealing one of the great 'grand illusions' (like sawing someone in half onstage) it would go a long way toward convincing me. By the way, do you know anything about Lane's experiments? -Scott -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 09:02:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: The 'techniques' (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Nigel: I should say that one of the things I find most convincing about Light will be quite difficult to explain as a 'perceptual distortion.' After leaving Knowledge I was involved with R. Buckminster Fuller, and his colleague Arthur Loeb. Fuller 'invented' a non-Euclidean geometry that was an even more radical departure from convention than 'hyperbolic' geometry at the turn of the century. Conventional geometry, to me, did not explain the way the Light behaves, but Fuller's synergetic geometry did. The Light behaves in a way that is not consistent with the conception of points, lines, and planes... but it is highly consistent. A perceptual explanation would have to account for that and at the same time be reconciled with my experience. Would be glad do discuss this further in a separate thread if anyone's interested. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 12:01:33 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: The 'techniques' (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Nigel: I should say that one of the things I find most convincing about Light will be quite difficult to explain as a 'perceptual distortion.' After leaving Knowledge I was involved with R. Buckminster Fuller, and his colleague Arthur Loeb. Fuller 'invented' a non-Euclidean geometry that was an even more radical departure from convention than 'hyperbolic' geometry at the turn of the century. Conventional geometry, to me, did not explain the way the Light behaves, but Fuller's synergetic geometry did. The Light behaves in a way that is not consistent with the conception of points, lines, and planes... but it is highly consistent. A perceptual explanation would have to account for that and at the same time be reconciled with my experience. Would be glad do discuss this further in a separate thread if anyone's interested. -Scott Hi Scott, I was just curious if you have a rational explanation for the experience I used to have doing light technique. Sometimes, I would be sitting there, minding my own business doing the technique, when suddenly I would be 'whooshed up' into an ecstatic, sort of orgasmic state of soul. It felt like I was sucked up thru a tube into the astral plane. I would 'see' light all around me and then I realized that I was part of it. Sort of blended into this cosmic realm. Without acid, mind you. Later on, I decided I was leaving my body and experiencing the astral plane, or something. Haven't done it in years since my zen guy told me to stay grounded. You know my email address. eb
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 12:58:09 (EST)
Poster: John K
Email:
To: eb
Subject: Re: The 'techniques' (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Dear EB: Why are you listening to your zen guy? And who is he that he is an expert? I have had all kinds of wild experiences which I call out of body although I really have no idea.. I never suffered any negative effects at all from them, that's why I am curious as to why you would be told (and why you would obey) to 'avoid' the experiences? Is it something you can choose not to have? My experiences have come and gone totally on their own accord.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:38:46 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: The 'techniques' (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
Nigel: I should say that one of the things I find most convincing about Light will be quite difficult to explain as a 'perceptual distortion.' After leaving Knowledge I was involved with R. Buckminster Fuller, and his colleague Arthur Loeb. Fuller 'invented' a non-Euclidean geometry that was an even more radical departure from convention than 'hyperbolic' geometry at the turn of the century. Conventional geometry, to me, did not explain the way the Light behaves, but Fuller's synergetic geometry did. The Light behaves in a way that is not consistent with the conception of points, lines, and planes... but it is highly consistent. A perceptual explanation would have to account for that and at the same time be reconciled with my experience. Would be glad do discuss this further in a separate thread if anyone's interested. -Scott Yes, but I think there is scientific, medical evidence that you can pinch/stimulate the optic nerve you can 'perceive' 'light,' but it isn't light really, just a perception that looks like it. Similarly, if you get hit on the head hard, you see 'light,' but it isn't really light, so we don't even need to get to the behavior of light to explain why people see what they do by doing the technique. At least this is the explanation I have for light technique.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 19, 1998 at 17:51:05 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: eb
Subject: Re: The 'techniques' (Re: Facts please, anyone?)
Message:
eb said: I was just curious if you have a rational explanation for the experience I used to have doing light technique. Sometimes, I would be sitting there, minding my own business doing the technique, when suddenly I would be 'whooshed up' into an ecstatic, sort of orgasmic state of soul. It felt like I was sucked up thru a tube into the astral plane. I would 'see' light all around me and then I realized that I was part of it. Sort of blended into this cosmic realm. Without acid, mind you. Later on, I decided I was leaving my body and experiencing the astral plane, or something. Haven't done it in years since my zen guy told me to stay grounded. eb: I have experienced something that has a one to one correspondence with what you describe, but not in Knowledge or mediation. L. Ron Hubbard even describes something like that, terming it 'climbing the pole.' (Who knows where he gets his phrasing.) I think that the only people who have rational explanations for this type of experience are people who have never experienced it. In my opinion it is the essence of 'non-rational' (which is not the same as irrational) I don't know what it is, but it can sure shake you up. One thing I do believe, however, as that I don't find the notion of a 'plane' (astral or otherwise) very convincing. The universe just isn't set up that way. It's a sort of 'flat earth' concept applied to spiritual experience. -Scott
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