Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 4

From: Jan 21, 1998

To: Feb 4, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5


JW -- To Mr. Ex. -:- Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 12:54:20 (EST)
___taxman cometh -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 16:26:37 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 20:54:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:00:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 00:37:49 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 16:57:52 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:06:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:45:14 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:45:30 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 04:12:02 (EST)
___Ms. K -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:48:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 18:59:14 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:28:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:48:13 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 21:59:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Elan Vital -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 22:04:33 (EST)

Clearheaded -:- Thank You! -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:08:48 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:52:33 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 17:20:32 (EST)
___Clearheaded -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 15:08:44 (EST)
___Clearheaded -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 15:17:38 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 17:28:44 (EST)
___miami -:- vice -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 19:51:02 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 20:58:18 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:07:58 (EST)
___eclipse -:- of god -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:19:40 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 06:42:32 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Thank You! -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:21:03 (EST)
___sure we -:- can -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 00:39:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: roger rubber duck -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 18:48:30 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: roger rubber duck -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:16:41 (EST)
___Anon -:- figure it out? -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:48:56 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: figure it out? -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 22:48:00 (EST)
___op -:- Re: figure it out? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 02:56:42 (EST)
___DVD -:- to CD -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 10:46:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: figure it out? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 16:15:37 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: figure it out? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:43:48 (EST)

Brian -:- White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 00:12:04 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 00:30:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:21:21 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:01:37 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:26:08 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:36:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: White Pages -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:49:09 (EST)

Sir David -:- The missing technique -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 23:51:28 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: The missing technique -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:30:44 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: The missing technique -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 22:29:43 (EST)
___Sir David (part 2) -:- Re: The missing technique -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 22:44:52 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: The missing technique -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 08:14:01 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: The missing technique -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 21:23:08 (EST)
___bottled -:- air -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 22:05:22 (EST)

John K. -:- History Question -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 16:28:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: History Question -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:26:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: History Question -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:33:43 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: History Question -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:04:52 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: History Question -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:22:18 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: History Question -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 12:34:21 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: History Question -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 13:03:40 (EST)
___big -:- fang -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 17:32:19 (EST)
___no -:- excuse -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 18:06:00 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Ex-Ashram Ex-Premies -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 19:04:20 (EST)
___ASHRAM -:- THE -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 19:49:37 (EST)
___don't -:- fergit -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 20:58:47 (EST)
___what a -:- post -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 21:29:32 (EST)
___tick tick -:- tick -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 21:42:50 (EST)
___Katie -:- We are still here -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:19:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Ashram Closure -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:27:04 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: post -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:29:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: tick -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 00:10:38 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: fang -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 12:13:01 (EST)
___ofgh56r -:- Re: tick -:- Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 19:39:59 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: History Question -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 03:48:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: History Question -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 14:01:31 (EST)
___well said -:- x-man -:- Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 21:52:28 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: History Question -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 05:54:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: History Question -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:24:40 (EST)
___innocent -:- x-man -:- Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:31:56 (EST)

Mili -:- A Joke -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 16:20:15 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A Joke -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 01:42:33 (EST)

Brian -:- Changed Stuff -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 19:27:06 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Changed Stuff -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 19:56:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Changed Stuff -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 20:38:01 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Changed Stuff -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 21:51:26 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Changed Stuff -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 09:14:25 (EST)
___nice -:- work -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:06:05 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Changed Stuff -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:47:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: work -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 18:41:05 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: work -:- Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 19:34:52 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: work -:- Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 12:06:21 (EST)

moon man -:- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: we are good at being sheep -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 14:49:16 (EST)

Maurizio Salamone -:- The orher face of the coin -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:33:18 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: The orher face of the coin -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 20:03:58 (EST)

Bob -:- Maharaji replaced? -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:26:44 (EST)
___maurizio -:- Re: Maharaji replaced? -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:36:54 (EST)
___Rob -:- Guru Vase -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 12:24:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Guru Vase -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 12:58:40 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Guru Vase -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 22:51:39 (EST)

JW -:- Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:10:12 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 15:56:16 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 16:02:49 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 22:34:27 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 23:01:11 (EST)
___Katie -:- JW didn't post the above. -:- Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 23:21:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 00:54:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 01:22:08 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Just for the record -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 02:22:18 (EST)
___Nigel -:- CHICKENSHIT -:- Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 15:37:12 (EST)



Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 12:54:20 (EST)
Poster: JW -- To Mr. Ex.
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital
Message:
Mr. Ex, I think you may have already mentioned this, but I was wondering in you could tell me about Elan Vital and any of the other entities under which Maharaji operates. (Visions Intl.?) Specifically, is Elan Vital incorporated? And, if so, is it incorporated as a non-profit entity? I guess I would have the same questions about any of the other entities. BTW -- if it is incorporated as a non-profit, I think certain filings with the IRS are available to the public. Those reports are supposed to show the amount of all the salaries paid and to whom in the organization, and what the total donations are for the year. I think you can get them for the past five years. Might be interesting.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 16:26:37 (EST)
Poster: taxman cometh
Email: broke@malibubutstillhappybecauseimthemaster
To: JW -- To Mr. Ex.
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Mr. Ex, I think you may have already mentioned this, but I was wondering in you could tell me about Elan Vital and any of the other entities under which Maharaji operates. (Visions Intl.?) Specifically, is Elan Vital incorporated? And, if so, is it incorporated as a non-profit entity? I guess I would have the same questions about any of the other entities. BTW -- if it is incorporated as a non-profit, I think certain filings with the IRS are available to the public. Those reports are supposed to show the amount of all the salaries paid and to whom in the organization, and what the total donations are for the year. I think you can get them for the past five years. Might be interesting. If this is true and you are legally entitled to all that information then this may be the most important information ever!Depending on what you find you not only show the world of premies just exactly where all the money goes but once you fax the findings to all media(for a small fee you can get a publicity company to have your press release faxed to ALL media)many of the hard copies,60 minutes,even frontlines will find this a most interesting story.The only reason you hear nothing of the guru maharaj ji in media is because he has been forgotten however if you were to show the numbers to media the guru would be as investigated and talked about as Bill Clinton.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 20:54:53 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: taxman cometh
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Yes, lets see what turns up. It does cost money to put on the events and pay the fees for the chartered plane. I for one am glad that the events continue to be held. Haven't found anything else as interesting yet. The tax man already got over 20K from me this year. The events should be tax free as they are non-profit. Why should there be more money taken from my donations?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:00:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Yes, lets see what turns up. It does cost money to put on the events and pay the fees for the chartered plane. I for one am glad that the events continue to be held. Haven't found anything else as interesting yet. The tax man already got over 20K from me this year. The events should be tax free as they are non-profit. Why should there be more money taken from my donations? They may be, Chris, if you itemize. Do you own a house? If you do not, the US Govt. has made it virtually impossible for anyone else to itemize. Another good way to save money on taxes is to get married and have children. You can even skip the children part if your wife makes a lot more or a lot less than you do. (Just a suggestion!)
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 00:37:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Yes, lets see what turns up. It does cost money to put on the events and pay the fees for the chartered plane. I for one am glad that the events continue to be held. Haven't found anything else as interesting yet. The tax man already got over 20K from me this year. The events should be tax free as they are non-profit. Why should there be more money taken from my donations? It also takes a lot of money to keep Maharaji in gold bathroom fixtures. That should NOT be tax deductible, because that is an individual's income and should be taxed just like mine is. I am willing to pay my taxes, despite the fact that the government does a lot with my money with which I do not agree, like bombing Bagdad, financing a bloated military when we no longer have enemies, and financing the CIA. But Maharaji should pay his taxes too. Also, people should know how much money is taken in and how it is spent. I take it that information about Elan Vital, that information is not readily made available.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 16:57:52 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
> It also takes a lot of money to keep Maharaji in gold bathroom fixtures. That should NOT be tax deductible, I was not discussing Ms personal finances. I was discussing the Elan Vital money and tax issue. > I take it that information about Elan Vital, that information is not readily made available. JW, where did you get your information? There are meetings held where people who participate in Elan Vital can find out about the money situation. They are not secret affairs. I donate money and don't have a problem with how it is being spent.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:06:05 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
To make the tax issue specific: I don't itemize and don't get any tax break on my Elan Vital donations. Separate donations I make to fund San Diego local monthly events don't have any connection to Elan Vital. They are managed by local interested people and have no status as non-profit. There is no official local organization. It is extemely grass roots run and financed by locals. What I was discussing is that I don't want the money which I donate to be taxed again when Elan Vital recieves it. It is used by Elan Vital to pay for non-profit activities. CD
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:45:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Look CD, maybe you are even more gullible than you appear. The history of DLM/Elan Vital is deception when it comes to finances and I know this because I was personally involved in the deception. Are you really so naive as to think that money going to Elan Vital doesn't reach Maharaji personally? If you do, I have a bridge going ovet the bay here in San Francisco I would like to sell you.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:45:30 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Why the cheap shot about being gullible? You are still into deception. I guess that is your hobby. I don't see any factual info on the ex web site yet. You need to do some honest detective work instead of just spouting off old Rolls stories.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 04:12:02 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
OK, I'll tell you some very simple facts: thousands of US premies donate to EV A good part of these donations are transferred to the EV Foundation in Switzerland to fund m's tours. Right? This has been explained several times in those participation meetings. Remember? Now the EV Foundation funds many activities related to m's tours. One of these (the most important one) is to pay for m's Gulfstream 4. OK? Millions a year. Yorum Weisz will tell you that this jet is being rented. I agree. Rented to whom ? To a company OWNED BY Mr Rawat. This jet BELONGS to Mr Rawat. In other words, EV is paying for m's jet. This means that a non profit organization (EV) is giving money to another non profit organization (outside the US of course) to buy private goods to Mr Rawat who’s not supposed to take any advantage of EV (charity organization). What is this? Tax fraud? Tell me, please ..... I can tell you a few other stories like that one.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:48:40 (EST)
Poster: Ms. K
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
Dear Chris - There is plenty of information on the web site that is true. Actually it kind of bugs me that you said that there were no facts. Did you read the glossary? Did you read further than page one? Most of the site consists of people's experiences, which are true although anecdotal. You seemed to be really bothered by this Roll-Royce thing. Do you know that it's not true? Is it the word "Rolls-Royce" that bothers you. I know that Rolls-Royces are quite out of fashion so perhaps GMJ is still driving luzury cars, but maybe he has switched to Jaquars or DeLoreans or plain old Mercedes. And as far as advising Brian to "check his facts", facts about GMJ are uncheckable, as you probably know, except by eye witnesses. BTW, I asked Shri Webmaster about the "estate" remark, and he said that he considers a large house with an wall around it to be an estate. Is this a bone of contention with you as well? If you find any obvious and provable inaccuracies in the site, I'd be please if you let me know. Regards from Katie (still a Packer fan...)
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 18:59:14 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
It sounds like we have similar info but put different spins on it. My take is that US donations fund several million a year for expenses on the chartered Gulfstream that M uses to travel the world visiting premies and holding events. I don't have a problem with that. I hope that he continues his heavy travel schedule. People around the world enjoy his visits. So where is the profit? Your detective work can surely improve. CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:28:10 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Ms. K
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
>Actually it kind of bugs me that you said that there were no facts I took another look. The page is getting better. There are some facts. Do you still have Jim's fake interview and the Nigeria story as news headlines? How about that fantastic story on Amaroo about the premies digging underground tunnels? I see that the conjecture on a premie mass suicide has been dropped. Good! How about the many postive experiences that people have had with K, at events and with M as their teacher. There are many of these untold stories. M and K are not a one-sided bummer trip! >Most of the site consists of people's experiences, which are true although anecdotal. Peoples personal stories and views are interesting and informative. I certainly have no problem with that content on your site. >You seemed to be really bothered by this Roll-Royce thing. >I asked Shri Webmaster about the 'estate' remark, and he said that he considers a large house with an wall around it to be an estate. I don't loose sleep over nonsense that you post - g. It is just foolish talk and lessens the credibility of the site. The actual statement on your site is: "he now parks his fleet of Rolls Royces within the walls of his estates located around the world. " >And as far as advising Brian to 'check his facts', facts about GMJ are uncheckable, as you probably know, except by eye witnesses. I know. It is hard to get facts so you just embellish your own fantasies and post them. Send Jim on a recon assignment. He is a clever fellow. >If you find any obvious and provable inaccuracies in the site, I'd be please if you let me know. Your responsibility as assistant webmaster is to post accurate information. My job is not to Beta test your BS. >(still a Packer fan...) You are not the type to give up easy. Regards, CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:48:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
>Actually it kind of bugs me that you said that there were no facts I took another look. The page is getting better. There are some facts. Do you still have Jim's fake interview and the Nigeria story as news headlines? How about that fantastic story on Amaroo about the premies digging underground tunnels? I see that the conjecture on a premie mass suicide has been dropped. Good! How about the many postive experiences that people have had with K, at events and with M as their teacher. There are many of these untold stories. M and K are not a one-sided bummer trip! >Most of the site consists of people's experiences, which are true although anecdotal. Peoples personal stories and views are interesting and informative. I certainly have no problem with that content on your site. >You seemed to be really bothered by this Roll-Royce thing. >I asked Shri Webmaster about the 'estate' remark, and he said that he considers a large house with an wall around it to be an estate. I don't loose sleep over nonsense that you post - g. It is just foolish talk and lessens the credibility of the site. The actual statement on your site is: 'he now parks his fleet of Rolls Royces within the walls of his estates located around the world. ' >And as far as advising Brian to 'check his facts', facts about GMJ are uncheckable, as you probably know, except by eye witnesses. I know. It is hard to get facts so you just embellish your own fantasies and post them. Send Jim on a recon assignment. He is a clever fellow. >If you find any obvious and provable inaccuracies in the site, I'd be please if you let me know. Your responsibility as assistant webmaster is to post accurate information. My job is not to Beta test your BS. >(still a Packer fan...) You are not the type to give up easy. Regards, CD Dear CD - No Nigeria, no fake interview. In fact, no "news" unless it's site news, which is important. The tunnel story is still there, but only as part of the original newspaper story from Australia in which it is included (I think it was one of the farmers who lived near to Amaroo who said it, and no one else seemed to take it too seriously. Read the article). As far as positive experiences with M and K, we have NOT had these or we wouldn't be doing this page. Why don't the premies do a page and put up their postive experiences? I think it's unfair to ask the ex-premies, who did not have good experiences, to do this. As far as the Rolls Royces, would you feel better if Brian changed it to a large fleet of luxury cars? This, as far as I know, is true. Besides, Mr. Ex is in possession of a lot of these facts. Probably more than you or I will ever be. I doubt if Jim H. would even be able to get past the gate of the Malibu compound. Regards, Katie P.S. Still a Packer fan. Bret Favre is a lot better looking than John Elway, too.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 21:59:28 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
>As far as the Rolls Royces, would you feel better if Brian changed it to a large fleet of luxury cars? This, as far as I know, is true. As far as you know? No comment. How about Turbo Bentleys. I guess you have a fond affection for the Rolls thing. If it makes you feel satisfied, then so be it. And you have the nerve to reprimand me for discussing music with Burke!
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 22:04:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Elan Vital
Message:
>As far as the Rolls Royces, would you feel better if Brian changed it to a large fleet of luxury cars? This, as far as I know, is true. As far as you know? No comment. How about Turbo Bentleys. I guess you have a fond affection for the Rolls thing. If it makes you feel satisfied, then so be it. And you have the nerve to reprimand me for discussing music with Burke! CD - I DID NOT REPRIMAND you for discussing music with Burke. READ MY MESSAGE. Sorry for shouting, but jeez! I encouraged you to discuss music on the site cause people like me might be interested. As far as luxury cars go, I know nothing, so don't bug me about it. My husband owns a completely rusted out 1976 Mercedes - is that something that M might have in his fleet? Anyway, that's the closest I've ever come to a "luxury" car.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:08:48 (EST)
Poster: Clearheaded
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank You!
Message:
Thank you for putting this page together and giving me a place to voice my feelings. I was first introduced to MJ in 1990 and received knowlege in 91. I didn't stick around too much after that. I couldn't seem to catch the same "high" that everyone else had. You know, the glassy eyed look and glow. I was in LA on business and visited a fellow premie in Malibu. She moved there to "serve" MJ, lived dirt poor with MANY people in a cramped house and gave all her time and any money to MJ. To be able to just get a glimpse of him or sweep the dirt out of Marilyn's path was the highlight of her day. It seemed a bit strange to me, his wealth and his followers many times near poverty. I got tired to being asked for money while feeling shouted at a berated by MJ at the same time. It's been about about six years since I've seen MJ on tape or in person. I often wonder how all his business are doing, the book company down in Florida, for example. I also wonder if the celebrities I heard have knowledge are still involved or if they have moved on. I heard MJ throws lavish parties in Malibu but none of his guests really know what he does. Alot of what MJ said HAS stuck with me, life if a gift. My source is no further than the tip of my nose, it's the air I breathe. It is a wonderful experience. However, it still appals me when I think of a young man I met back then who told me he "prayed" to MJ. He was 24 then and literally grew up believing MJ was someone to prey to. Seeing shrines in homes and businesses just became too much for me. He's a real person, just like the rest of us. I couldn't support his delision any longer. Again, thank you for this outlet, it's been a long time coming.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:52:33 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Clearheaded
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
Just curious, Clearheaded, and maybe this is a stupid question. But you see I was involved years ago and things have changed so much. Now the premies don't speak about their experience of Knowledge in a formal setting, at least that is my understanding. Whereas, when I was involved, we did speak very much in formal settings. So it was very easy to hear how other premies were doing. My question is, did you ever get to hear a premie speak about Knowledge? Or was it only from M? The reason I am wondering is that I would think a new person would naturally wonder how the premies were doing, instead of only getting to hear M speak about it. Or maybe you never cared to hear anyway?
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 17:20:32 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Clearheaded
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
I was also a premie but left in 1983 so I am also curious about your experience in the 90s. What do you mean you felt "shouted at and berated by MJ at the same time." I felt that a lot while I was a premie too, but I'm surprised he would continue to do it, given his supposed new and improved image. Regarding "praying" to Maharaji, in the 70s and early 80s, "praying" to Guru Maharaj Ji (that's what he was called then) was very much in vogue, and very much encouraged by Maharaji himself. Indeed, we were supposed to "pray" to Maharaji for his "grace" which we needed for absolutely everything, including having any experience at all, and we even needed to pray to him for his grace that we could even make the effort to practice knowledge, which at that time was satsang, service and meditation. Isn't that amazing? I don't know if you talks about that anymore, but he said it repeatedly to premies back then. And, of course, even then most premies were fairly poor, while Maharaji lived in fabulous wealth, while asking for ever more money from the premies all the time.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 15:08:44 (EST)
Poster: Clearheaded
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "formal setting" - if by that you mean when we would go to a program, whether it was seeing a tape or MJ in person, then the answer is yes, premies did speak about their experience. Once again, the glazed over stary eyed look would come over ones face and the word beautiful was frequently used. There was never anything specific said. Basically it couldn't be put into words. Hope that answers your question.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 15:17:38 (EST)
Poster: Clearheaded
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
Thanks for your response. What I mean by "shouted at and berated...." is that MJ give mixed messages. First he tells us we're already perfect, that there's nothing wrong with us. Then in the next (or same) breath he starts yelling at us and saying how stupid we are and that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing i.e. practicing knowledge. He would give mixed messages all the time. I felt like I was listening to my own abusive father all over again, you're good/you're bad. Very confusing and not very nice! Does anyone know if any celebs are still involved like Michael B., Carole K., the guy from Miami ...? I'm surprised now that I ever got sucked in at all except that I was in alot of emotional pain and desperate. MJ gets alot of people that way. He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 17:28:44 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Clearheaded
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
Thanks for your response. What I mean by 'shouted at and berated....' is that MJ give mixed messages. First he tells us we're already perfect, that there's nothing wrong with us. Then in the next (or same) breath he starts yelling at us and saying how stupid we are and that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing i.e. practicing knowledge. He would give mixed messages all the time. I felt like I was listening to my own abusive father all over again, you're good/you're bad. Very confusing and not very nice! Does anyone know if any celebs are still involved like Michael B., Carole K., the guy from Miami ...? I'm surprised now that I ever got sucked in at all except that I was in alot of emotional pain and desperate. MJ gets alot of people that way. He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back. That was exactly my experience 15 years ago. Maharaji would talk about how beautiful, loving and perfect it all was, and then he would bitch and rant about how stupid the people in the world are, and even how stupid premies are. The last time I saw him was at an introductory program in 1990, and even at an introductory program he started doing that. I was so offended I got up and walked out in the middle of his talk. It was very illogical, inconsistent and schizophrenic, but the strange thing is, while I was a premie, I had no problem reconciling these contradictory things. I think as a premie, you just have to disconnect one thought from the other and not analyze them in the least, and especially, never take a step back and look at what Maharaji is saying or doing objectively. If you do, it makes very little sense. By "Carole K" do you mean Carole King? I think Burke said Michael Bolton hasn't been a premie for years. I don't know who the guy from Miami is.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 19:51:02 (EST)
Poster: miami
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: vice (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
The guy from miami must mean the black star of miami vice. He was going to events during the 80's. Now he sometimes is seen on the psychic network and doing other infomertials. Some premies worked on the crew of miami vice. So he met them, he used to get very close seats natch. As all the upper dust did.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 20:58:18 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Clearheaded
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
> He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back. Now, which reality would that be? The evening news or making more money?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:07:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
> He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back. CD wrote: Now, which reality would that be? The evening news or making more money?
Clearheaded wrote I'm surprised now that I ever got sucked in at all except that I was in a lot of emotional pain and desperate. MJ gets a lot of people that way. He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back. You asked what "reality" that might be. I had the same experience as Clearheaded. I was also desperate and in a lot of emotional pain. The "reality" that I found was that following Maharaji and practicing knowledge was not going to alleviate my inner pain or my desperation. Perhaps Clearheaded felt the same way also. Regards from K.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 22:19:40 (EST)
Poster: eclipse
Email: bb
To: CD
Subject: of god (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Hi there cd, Good one, I'm not sure what his answer would be, mine would be the reality of a concious power that is free of someone's definition. Or that there is just two involved, me and it. No third party in there mucking it up by involving themselves as the voice of god. That is not a small issue, to me it's really the only issue. All the personality defects that are along with that are just extra complaint areas. To be free to view life as I see it and finally to see it as it is, it is so wrong to set yourself up as an authority on god, or in this case, as the sole outlet of god's real stuff, of the powers intent and to be out there as the recipient of our inner stuff-- wow, and to talk so much yet not let anyone off the hook about your godheadness. It is too, WAY too tyrannical. It steals the spot that the -well- lord occupies. Not fair and not funny. In fact there is no redeeming features to that kind of play acting. I didn't check email yet, tomorrow.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 06:42:32 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
> He's like a last ray of hope until reality snaps one back. Now, which reality would that be? The evening news or making more money? I think it's time for a little honesty here. It is pretty safe to say that before we all received Knowledge we only had ideas about an Ultimate and/or ideas about our glimpses of it. Since we received Knowledge we are still relatively none the wiser about the nature of this, we just have plenty more ideas. The reality which snaps one back is therefore the reality that we are all limited in our knowledge of the divine even if we believe otherwise. What gets me is this. What is wrong or undesirable about just NOT KNOWING (excuse me shouting here..it is more of a slightly raised voice tinged with mild frustration). It seems to me that if we were all a bit more honest we would just admit that our experiences don't prove the existence of a Godly power. We just hope. Lets admit it.Lets not preach as if we know. We know relatively NOTHING. Personally, stripped of my former beliefs about MJ, grace etc. I now find meditation still very pleasant and fulfilling but NOT an indication of greater or lesser reality. It is the ideas about it that have proven to have been unreal and changing..and that includes my ideas about Maharaji's involvement. I think that the force with which MJ advertises the preciousness of Knowledge (and the indispensiblity he suggests he has in the process) is obviously responsible for the way that premies attribute and verbalise their experiences. If the teacher were not so concerned with everything revolving around him, maybe some more widespread and level-headed teaching of the techniques and practice could happen. I think that it is misleading to suggest that if meditation was widespredly taught it would be less effective. OK so people might charge money or try to build careers around it at first, but by it becoming public knowledge, those who are in the Master of perfection game for self gain will eventually be laughed at. All these gurus who claim special powers are, as far as I can see, selling 'bottled air' as it were. In other words they hype their audiences up with secret initiations, fear inducing speeches, and getting people to make solemn commitments. The only reason they get away with it is that so many people are pre-disposed by culture and religion to expect and bow down to an authoritarian deity. Also their speeches are tantalisingly spiced with seeemingly sensible and/or amusing,captivating and entertaining sories which make the whole thing seem kinder and more humane than it actually is. Finally. You only have to look at the followers to see what a mess you can get into if you are do not keep well in touch with a more solid reality. That is the reality which can sometimes mercifully snap you back from the brink of delusion CD.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 17:21:03 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Thank You!
Message:
> I had the same experience as Clearheaded. I was also desperate and in a lot of emotional pain. The 'reality' that I found was that following Maharaji and practicing knowledge was not going to alleviate my inner pain or my desperation. Katie, I have no problem with your assessment. My perspective is that there is a lot of value with what M teaches. I do not relate to it as a solution for inner pain or desperation. My experience is an enhanced understanding of existence , love and hope. In that I see a force that can be an enabler for individual peace, human cooperation and achievement of worthwhile goals. CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 00:39:40 (EST)
Poster: sure we
Email: bb
To: Anon
Subject: can (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Hi Anon! I know you are at odds with any pronouncements about the nature of the power, and certainly we have earned our rightful skepticism the hard way. For me, after the ultimate ruler maharaji was dethroned, I had to contend with the DNA logic and reality, that was a challenge, and the religions all around me, and the ingrained hindu/eastern 'realize god' dogma. Not to mention the promise keeper/christian thing. After the tour, I am left with dna evidence of a concious power, with the fact that there is NO 'realized person' on earth, (that info. courtesy of the extended realize god community). And strangely excessive blood/glory/ worship/only begotton son of god talk from the christians. But if I look around at all the people around me, they are plagued by what seems like the nature of humans, that we ALL end up having our limits and our flaws and our weaknesses and we waste our chances and can all find flaws in others and they can surely see the ones we have. People try endlessly to overcome thier supposid shortcomings and maybe they don't or they have given up. Or they are just real involved with things and ignore the issue. Either way, by our very ways we evidence the apparent reality that we are designed in such a way that we are not heroic humans, we are needy. If there was a group of god realized types, then we could look to them as realistic examples of how we were designed to be. But, none of them are out of the game and thier dogma aside, they are just like us. Look at Sir David, he is probably one of the few people on the planet that experiences nectar. And he has done it for quite a while, his philosophies may not be for all, but wether you agree with his non-nectar views or not, he is still among us as a regular guy. He doesn't make any claims about it's effects, he is witness and evidence that it doesn't make you a 'realized god'. So, still, the issue of is there a concious power that cares and can be helpful. Well, with the way we are, by nature, all the flawed people must certainly hope that they have someone, some careing part of life that can help them in thier weakness, something to be able to turn to in all the various types of traumas and troubles and threats. It would be completely unfair and out of character of the creative element, for the creative element of life to design us so weak and plagued with difficulties and leave us alone and adrift with no heart felt response. The reason meditation is so empty is that you might as well just look at a plant or ANYTHING, it is all part of the same thing as Trent has accuratly said. Or swim in comfortable water, whatever does you some good. Where Trent goes wrong is that -ok, it's good he is sharp enough to have graduated himself from all the eastern thinking and come to the only conclusion that that thinking allows you, which is, that we are all god. But, the mistake is that there IS a concious power that you can have a give and take with. You just have to do some testing of that to start to have some first hand evidence that is convincing to you and only you. If that power resides in the life breath, like we do, well, then that is a good a place as any to try to have a give and take. To ignore the friend and try to 'meditate' is a total confusion. Thank you religions for gumming even THAT one up. And of course maharaji, for pretending to BE that power. He deserves the hell he has put himself through. He can also thank the eastern misunderstanding of life for it's influence. But his vast misbehavior is all his doing. By the way, why CAN'T we figure it out? Are you suggesting that it's impossible? Sure we can.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 18:48:30 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Burke
Subject: Re: roger rubber duck (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Burke, You seem to be able to endlessly ramble on about god knows what and what not but can't send a simple Email reply to my music discussion at the bottom of this page. Music is certainly important stuff as even Anon knows. But if I look at the Burke around me, he is plagued by what seems like the nature of humans, that he ends up having his limits and flaws and weaknesses and wastes chances. CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:16:41 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: roger rubber duck (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Burke, You seem to be able to endlessly ramble on about god knows what and what not but can't send a simple Email reply to my music discussion at the bottom of this page. Music is certainly important stuff as even Anon knows. But if I look at the Burke around me, he is plagued by what seems like the nature of humans, that he ends up having his limits and flaws and weaknesses and wastes chances. CD Dear CD - Excuse me for rudely interjecting myself in this discussion between you and Burke. My suggestion is that you guys discuss music on the premie page. I would probably be interested (and I am not a musician), and I would bet that some of the other people would be too. After all, Brian, our fearsome yet lovable webmaster has not banned off-topic discussions. Maybe Bill hasn't learned how to use e-mail yet? Ms. K
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 19:48:56 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: CAN'T we
Subject: figure it out? (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Hi there BB, you wrote: "By the way, why CAN'T we figure it out? Are you suggesting that it's impossible? Sure we can." ------------------------ It depends what you mean by "figuring it out".No I don't like to think it is impossible for a human being to be aware of a higher truth. I have met plenty of people who claimto have figured things out but I personally am reluctant to put a full stop on the process. Sure I have figured things out in my own way and I will continue to do so more and more as long as I live. BTW I don't find meditation empty. I do still find it very relaxing and intoxicating. I just seem to have the lost the impression of having 'a friend inside' which is quite interesting because I did once. I used to pray all the time. First to Jesus then God (who I thought was bigger) and then to Maharaji, when I started to believe that he was God's representitive on earth basically. I have since stopped believing that Maharaji was this singular Divine authority and am nursing some real disappointment at NOT having been protected from what I see as having been 'led astray', I don't have so much faith in the God I prayed to originally. ( I did ask God MOST sincerely not to let me be deceived by false prophets after all!) However seeing as God is reputed to work in mysterious ways I have not entirely given up hope that he may one day enlighten me further (even though our daily conversations seem to have dried up for the time being). This is probably because I am so busy catching up on all the nice things that I missed out on when serving Maharaji and anyway, it seems pointless chasing my creator (like I used to) who quite clearly wishes to remain hidden. If He wanted to show himself I am sure He would have done so by now in a more unmistakable fashion. For the time being I shall not be assuming anything. You will not see me walking down the street mumbling a one way conversation with an imaginary invisible friend. If he wants me to "figure him out" then I'm afraid he is going to have to drop some more substantial clues my way. If I ain't getting any more, then I'm afraid I've missed the boat and will have to take the consequences. (I always did wonder what it would be like to be a frog or some such lowly animal) I think my disappointment with Maharaji runs very deep. That is to say that the hurt runs very deep. I still feel the vestige of my childlike and desperately heartfelt longing for a loving relationship with a true higher power but since I feel so disillusioned from following Maharaji (and this is mainly the Ashram experience I am talking about) I am badly put off making myself so emotionally vulnerable again. I suppose that the part of me that believes in a loving God is puzzled that when I attempted to devote myself to him, in good faith, I should be led into a situation where I became so unhappy. I readily confess that I feel too wounded by my experiences as a premie to yet open my heart to any supposed higher power again.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 22:48:00 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: figure it out? (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Hi there BB, you wrote: 'By the way, why CAN'T we figure it out? Are you suggesting that it's impossible? Sure we can.' ------------------------ It depends what you mean by 'figuring it out'.No I don't like to think it is impossible for a human being to be aware of a higher truth. I have met plenty of people who claimto have figured things out but I personally am reluctant to put a full stop on the process. Sure I have figured things out in my own way and I will continue to do so more and more as long as I live. BTW I don't find meditation empty. I do still find it very relaxing and intoxicating. I just seem to have the lost the impression of having 'a friend inside' which is quite interesting because I did once. I used to pray all the time. First to Jesus then God (who I thought was bigger) and then to Maharaji, when I started to believe that he was God's representitive on earth basically. I have since stopped believing that Maharaji was this singular Divine authority and am nursing some real disappointment at NOT having been protected from what I see as having been 'led astray', I don't have so much faith in the God I prayed to originally. ( I did ask God MOST sincerely not to let me be deceived by false prophets after all!) However seeing as God is reputed to work in mysterious ways I have not entirely given up hope that he may one day enlighten me further (even though our daily conversations seem to have dried up for the time being). This is probably because I am so busy catching up on all the nice things that I missed out on when serving Maharaji and anyway, it seems pointless chasing my creator (like I used to) who quite clearly wishes to remain hidden. If He wanted to show himself I am sure He would have done so by now in a more unmistakable fashion. For the time being I shall not be assuming anything. You will not see me walking down the street mumbling a one way conversation with an imaginary invisible friend. If he wants me to 'figure him out' then I'm afraid he is going to have to drop some more substantial clues my way. If I ain't getting any more, then I'm afraid I've missed the boat and will have to take the consequences. (I always did wonder what it would be like to be a frog or some such lowly animal) I think my disappointment with Maharaji runs very deep. That is to say that the hurt runs very deep. I still feel the vestige of my childlike and desperately heartfelt longing for a loving relationship with a true higher power but since I feel so disillusioned from following Maharaji (and this is mainly the Ashram experience I am talking about) I am badly put off making myself so emotionally vulnerable again. I suppose that the part of me that believes in a loving God is puzzled that when I attempted to devote myself to him, in good faith, I should be led into a situation where I became so unhappy. I readily confess that I feel too wounded by my experiences as a premie to yet open my heart to any supposed higher power again. Anon -Your story is very common to human experience. If you have ever read the book of Job, you have seen the story of a man who, for no apparent reason has had terrible things happen to him. God allows them to happen even though Job did everything that God asked of him down to the letter. God, never the less, allows Ha-Satan (at the time in which Job was written, the concept of Satan was not the manifestation of evil. He was Ha-Satan who was simply adversarial) to test Job. He can do anything except kill him. Job is completely innocent and beyond reproach. The moral of the story is- How can we know the mind of God and who are we to even consider it? (And of course, that bad things happen to good people) This will sound simplistic, but I have always felt that a loving God would want us to enjoy the gifts that we have. Our life, our health, the world and people around us, nature, music, art, literature, or whatever it is that you find beauty in. Maybe we will not get to have that intimate relationship with our creator on Earth in any way other than to appreciate this precious life that we have been given. Maybe we are not meant to know why we are here, but rather to enjoy being. (I, for one, have always felt compelled to try to find out the answers anyway. Don't give up on it- Just don't get too depressed when it eludes you. It eludes a lot of us.) I think that it is very obvious that most of us here crave this personal relationship with our creator, or we never would have been drawn to M. Fondly, Mr. Pollyanna aka VP P.S. I also find it fascinating that throughout Job's entire trials, he never once denounced God. He wishes he was never born, he questions God, but he does not abandon his faith. This is something to consider. Hope you don't misinterpret this as preaching.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 02:56:42 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: figure it out? (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Dear Anon: I can completely understand your feelings of betrayal, and when I read posts like the one above, I am incredibly moved. And VP, I thought that some of your early posts were pretty lame, but your insight about the Job story changed my opinion. What I can't understand, seriously and hopefully not from a judgmental position, is why some of us (okay, me) have had an experience with M that takes us beyond all the crap of the physical aspect of DLM, ashrams, off-the-wall instructors, etc etc. When I speak about trusting and having an experience with M, I mean just that. I don't mean believing him because he said this or that, or because this or that was said about him. Things happened in my life, in my consciousness - physically, emotionally, and 'spiritually' - that I cannot explain in any other way than that they are directly linked to M. And I'm not talking in past tense. This intense relationship continues, although physical contact - i.e. face to face - is seldom. I just can't imagine being let down. I relate very strongly to the story of Job - I've personally been through enough personal tragedy over the past few years to fill a few biblical chapters. But something in me just doesn't let me lose faith. And that something feels like a cord that's directly connected from my heart to the center of the universe. So maybe M's way just isn't for you - but I really don't think you've lost faith in your 'loving God', and I hope with all my heart that you will find a way to re-open to that wonder. I hope this doesn't come off as chauvinistic. I really don't mean to imply in any way that I'm holier, higher, luckier, etc. Certainly none of us can see the whole picture, and who knows what the final outcome will be?
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 10:46:05 (EST)
Poster: DVD
Email: bb
To: CD
Subject: to CD (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
but I DID send you an email message from the spot down below. I wondered why you didn't get back by now. Anywho, it's bill52@rocketmail.com Well of course your right about the shared nature, and it's a relief to see that that is the way it is. It's a great life when you can just dispense with the hoops everybody want's you to jump through in life. When the hoops are handed to you by the lord god almighty, or any of the authority structures-religions-, what option do you have but buy into some of them. It's good to find out that I don't have to do ANYTHING. Just enjoy my life and recognise the unaffiliated power. And that it is a really cool and friendly power. I was at a party last night and to just have fun with those that COULD have fun, and to bypass all the boundries people had, and see others judgeing others and bypass that also. There was nobody at that party- or in the constant global party-that is standing by the snack table and IS the body of the friendly power. Being all the same, and flawed, and different, is a great and amazing thing. Being free of the programming that I am supposed to be something, and attain something that I am not and can never be, is cause for celebration. The effort to join the ranks of a non-existant group of people who have realised god is over. Better to stay with the defective masses. And just befriend the power.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 16:15:37 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: figure it out? (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
Dear Anon: I can completely understand your feelings of betrayal, and when I read posts like the one above, I am incredibly moved. And VP, I thought that some of your early posts were pretty lame, but your insight about the Job story changed my opinion. What I can't understand, seriously and hopefully not from a judgmental position, is why some of us (okay, me) have had an experience with M that takes us beyond all the crap of the physical aspect of DLM, ashrams, off-the-wall instructors, etc etc. When I speak about trusting and having an experience with M, I mean just that. I don't mean believing him because he said this or that, or because this or that was said about him. Things happened in my life, in my consciousness - physically, emotionally, and 'spiritually' - that I cannot explain in any other way than that they are directly linked to M. And I'm not talking in past tense. This intense relationship continues, although physical contact - i.e. face to face - is seldom. I just can't imagine being let down. I relate very strongly to the story of Job - I've personally been through enough personal tragedy over the past few years to fill a few biblical chapters. But something in me just doesn't let me lose faith. And that something feels like a cord that's directly connected from my heart to the center of the universe. So maybe M's way just isn't for you - but I really don't think you've lost faith in your 'loving God', and I hope with all my heart that you will find a way to re-open to that wonder. I hope this doesn't come off as chauvinistic. I really don't mean to imply in any way that I'm holier, higher, luckier, etc. Certainly none of us can see the whole picture, and who knows what the final outcome will be? OP, Like Anon, I also feel incredibly betrayed by Maharaji, as I have said before. I know that each of us is different so that feeling of betrayal can manifest and be experienced in different ways. But a common threat is that it's betrayal on the deepest of levels. But I can't say I feel "betrayed by god." I now know that the person "Maharaji" and the force and power that is "god" are entirely different and distinct things and part of the reason I feel betrayed by Maharaji is that he deluded me into believing that he had something to do with the experience of "god" when he does not. It was very painful to realize that, but I'm very glad that I was able to. It freed me in a way that nothing else has. And, in my opinion, the reason you trust and are "having an experience with M" is because you are entirely and completely in love with him, or at least with the way he once was, or the way you want him to be, and hence most of the evidence you get that has convinced most of the rest of us that he isn't worthy of our faith and love, just bounces off you. Since love is blind, you are incapable of being objective about him, evidenced by the fact that the only negative thing you can say about him, after much thought, is the way he mis-pronounces "Athens." That is very pathetic if you ask me, but if you want to go on loving him, seeing him through the eyes of "love," and if it's not hurting anyone, maybe it's an okay thing to do. But it certainly wouldn't be something that I think most people would be interested in. But if you do, I would suggest you stay away from this forum because what gets said here I would think would be pretty unpleasant for you because it threatens something that is so important to the definition of who you think you are.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:43:48 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: figure it out? (Re: Thank You!)
Message:
>evidence you get that has convinced most of the rest of us that he isn't worthy of our faith and love, I am more impressed by what M has to say in his public speeches than by your "evidence". The topics he discusses and the way he does so are what are of most interest to me. His personal life is a curiosity. My reviews of Ms public speeches are positive whereas your reviews are negative. I think he is a very good public speaker, you judge his performance as lousy. People disagree. >I would suggest you stay away from this forum because what gets said here I would think would be pretty unpleasant for you because it threatens something that is so important to the definition of who you think you are. I doubt OP is threatened since she relies on her own experiences for her foundation. She is smarter than you realize. Some people know that certain things can not be defined except as a limit. Who do you think you are JW? By the way, do you have any really unpleasant stuff? I haven't seen any lately. Reminds me of the Twilight Zone movie: "Want to see something really scary?" Regards, CD
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 00:12:04 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: White Pages
Message:
Aside from tradition left over from Miraclevision, can anyone tell me what use they get out of the White Pages? They seem rather passive to me, with the idea being that we maintain a database of ex's (which can only grow) in case anyone wants to see if anyone else is listed. So is anyone looking there for anyone else? I'd like to propose that we eliminate what is certain to outgrow its usefulness(??). There should be something more active in its place. Perhaps along the lines of a Personal Ads page, or something like that. Then those actually seeking someone could post there (with a cross-post of new ads to the Forum). Of course, we'd see ads like: Want to buy Used baragons, any shape. Prefer with padding in place. Contact Ex-Premie Prosthetics, Inc. Missed Connections Me - short hair, neat appearance, alert WPC-type. You - long brown hair, ankle-length dress, blissful look. We met at Hans Jiyanti in the darshan recovery clinic. You were on the cot next to mine. Our eyes met. We were both still a bit woozy, but yet I sensed some inner connection.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 00:30:09 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
I check the White Pages about once a month to see if anyone I know has registered; it has yet to happen. It seems that everyone I knew as a Premie is still deep in the throws of Premiedom, have yet to get a computer and modem and get on the net, or, are so ashamed of their Premie past that they have yet to check out our lovely little site. I'm all for something more useful.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:21:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian and Mickey
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
I check the White Pages about once a month to see if anyone I know has registered; it has yet to happen. It seems that everyone I knew as a Premie is still deep in the throws of Premiedom, have yet to get a computer and modem and get on the net, or, are so ashamed of their Premie past that they have yet to check out our lovely little site. I'm all for something more useful. I agree with Mickey P. I look at the White Pages in hopes of finding people that I knew, but I've never seen anyone I know listed in there (except John K, but I already knew where he was) and no one has ever e-mailed me as a result of my listing in there. I have gotten a lot of e-mail as a result of my "Journeys" entry, but not from anyone that I used to know. Personal/unclassified ads sound like a good idea to me, since a lot of people seem to be searching for people that they used to know back in the olden days. There also seems to be a large market for old Blue Aquarius albums, pictures of Jim Heller, and the like.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:01:37 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
I personally like the white pages, so I would like to see them, or something similar, continue. I have actually found a couple of people I knew and I have had two or three e-mails from people who knew me, but who are not listed in the white pages. Although the white pages are only the "tip of the iceberg" (have you seen "Titanic?") of the thousands of ex-premies who are around, the fact that the list continues to grow also gives credibility to the site in general. In other words, it dispells the argument that the site is only visited by a few vindictive, negative, confused, etc. people. And it demonstrates that there are a large number of ex-premies who are not afraid to publicly state that they really are "ex." But if a different format could be devised that would improve things, that might be good too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:26:08 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
I personally like the white pages, so I would like to see them, or something similar, continue. I have actually found a couple of people I knew and I have had two or three e-mails from people who knew me, but who are not listed in the white pages. Although the white pages are only the 'tip of the iceberg' (have you seen 'Titanic?') of the thousands of ex-premies who are around, the fact that the list continues to grow also gives credibility to the site in general. In other words, it dispells the argument that the site is only visited by a few vindictive, negative, confused, etc. people. And it demonstrates that there are a large number of ex-premies who are not afraid to publicly state that they really are 'ex.' But if a different format could be devised that would improve things, that might be good too. Yep, I agree with Joe, I think the White Pages are useful. I've already had one person contact me who I'm very glad to be in touch with. If they don't take up room on the site which could be used for something else, I vote we keep them. Maybe you could add the classified ads as part of it, but keep the original listings. Excellent job, Brian, by the way, on the redesign.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:36:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
Yep, I agree with Joe, I think the White Pages are useful. I've already had one person contact me who I'm very glad to be in touch with. If they don't take up room on the site which could be used for something else, I vote we keep them. Okay. I wasn't looking to kill them so much as get some feedback from people as to whether they were being used by anyone. There were few originally, but the list is growing. I got another one in today from Australia that needs adding. The way they were first formatted was continued even after the list grew larger. I tried to create visual breaks between the entries, but it looks too cluttered IMHO. So I guess I'll have to think of some other way to handle them. Well... okay... maybe I was hoping to kill them :)
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:49:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: White Pages
Message:
Sorry Brian (and Mickey), I guess JW and Joy just had a lot more friends than we did, or at least more friends who want to keep in touch with them. Onward the white pages...
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 23:51:28 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The missing technique
Message:
Ever wonder why we never realised the knowledge? We were missing a vital technique! I have pleasure in revealing it to you now, completely free: 20 AMURI DHARANA 845: Effect of Urine Therapy in Yoga The urinary liquid within the body Is unto a picot of small well; Dipped into sea vast If that is fed once a day In way appropriate, Life will know distress none; Well may you seek it. 846: Goodly Effects of Amuri Dharana If this divine water clear is inside taken The body glows in a year; No harm befalls it; Prana control will realised be; The mind will center in Letter "A" (Pranava) And will uplifted be And the body into gold will turned be. 847: Consume 100--Pepper Measure (drops) a Day Drink of this divine-water A hundred pepper measure No medicine beyond this, know men; But rub it clear on crest of head Your greying vanishes away And fresh black hair shoots forth. 848: Only the Ignorant Dissuade the Practice The water on the banks of body Is unto a mirage on the sea Away, Away, from it--thus they say The men who know not truth; They who can drink the midstream Rid of foam and wave That arises first and last Will immortal be; And all greying and wrinkling disappears. 849: Effect of Mixing Ingredients Oh! damsel of flowing tresses and slender forehead! Hear you a miracle this! In this Water hidden in the body Mix pepper, amla, turmeric, and neem Soft will your body be; And dark thine hair on head. 850: Greatness of Amuri Dharana He the Nandi called it: the Hero's recipe, Heaven's exlixir, and Sakti's potion Some know it as the Medicament Primus It is specific that is of radiant light Hard to describe to world at large. Now don't forget to leave no room for doubt in your mind. Actually I found this and a lot more about yoga techniques on the net, together with a whole load of Hindu stuff. It's easy to see where Maharaji got his knowledge from as all the four techniques are mentioned there in great detail.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 14:30:44 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: The missing technique
Message:
Very entertaining, David! I don't think, however, that MJ would've gotten quite as many people roped in if this "fifth technique" had been a requirement! Perhaps you could tell us where the Hindu site is which talks about the Knowledge techniques, or post something directly from it?
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 22:29:43 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Joy
Subject: Re: The missing technique
Message:
First let me say that I've been studying the meditation techniques, particularly the word and the nectar (the main ones which I practise) to see just what is happening from a non God, non Eastern mystical point of view. The word technique or breath meditation is a natural method for stilling the mind. It seems to work for anyone who practises it diligently regardless of whether they're a premie or not, an athiest or religious or whatever. It is a well known technique for stilling the mind and bringing inner peace. That Maharaji should claim divine copyright on it, is ridiculous. Meditation on the breath seems to change the frequency of the brainwaves and does produce peace of mind in a totally natural and scientific way. No mysticism there! The nectar technique is still a bit of a mystery but it appears to release natural endorphines into the body. This would explain the "altered mind state" that it produces and the rushes of pleasure, increased energy and general feeling of lightness and well being. The nectique is little known in the West (until now) but is practised all over India, particularly by Hindu yogis. There is no evidence that it is anything more than a natural experience that anyone can have who practises it diligently. The same as the breath, there is no evidence that it is coming from the divine, it is the result of physical changes in the body's chemistry. Light and music seem to be natural phemomena that all people can experience when they are still and watching or listening for them. On the Kundalini site I mentioned they don't advise using your fingers to see or hear them, just to sit and listen or gaze. Their breath technique is a little more involved than M's but I have seen our "word" technique described in other Hindu religious branches. To summarise, I would say that the Light, Music, Word & Nectar are all natural phenomena which have nothing to do with Maharaji or grace or any mystical or Indian religion. Indeed, one could say that they have nothing to do with God either. They are natural phemomena which are within everybody's grasp. I personally think the whole of the Hindu stuff is crap. They have built a religion around some simple and natural phenomena. Maharaji has just Westernised that religion a bit. It's still complete crap though! I'll post the Kundalini site URL when I can find it again. For now, There's a few things I copied on the next part of the thread below this one.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 22:44:52 (EST)
Poster: Sir David (part 2)
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Joy
Subject: Re: The missing technique
Message:
This is a continuation of my message directly above in this thread. Here's what the Hindu Kundilini site says: 582: When Light Appears If thus meditating, Luminescence you glimpse at the Eye-brow centre Know you are destined for bliss unalloyed. 607: Other Sound Experiences in Dhyana. The roar of sea, the thundering of cloud, The trumpeting of elephant, the euphony of lute, The music of the orbs That glow in firmament vast, The melody of the flute; the resonance of conch, All these The yogi true alone hears. 799: Dam the source of Kundalini at Muladhara, Lock the chimney up in the mouth; Bolt the cavity above with thy tongue's tip And sit erect in yoga Samadhi No more shall be death for you. 800: Technique of Kecari Yoga On the square plank of Muladhara, Where Jiva the washerman performs the cleansing act, Erect bunds that the sluices leak not (apana); And then let in the heavenly stream for the lake to fill; Thus sit looking skyward Be thou rid of impurity, all. 802: Nectar in Kecari Mudra If skillfully rubbed by the tongue's tip The mystic nectar will begin to ooze; When it comes, with care manage it That you may swim in Moon's Region mystic; And that which flowed and roared May preserved be. 803: Vision of Gods in Kecari Mudra Fan tongue's tip upward in palate centre; There abides Jiva and Siva; The Gods Three, and Devas three and thirty crores Will there appear; No death shall there be; A million, billion years this fleshly body will be. 804: Transform Fleshly Stream Into Heavenly Stream From the lofty peaks of the cranium Flows the stream that is of the flesh; It is a heavenly stream; They know not how to make it so; They who know that art Will swill the divine nectar And be forever, doubt free. 805: Kecari Mudra Leads to Youthfulness If you can send the breath twain Into the mouth's upper cavity You shall then know death none; And the gates of nectar will open be; Greying and wrinkling will disappear For all to see; Young will the Yogi be True this, I say, in the name of Nandi Holy.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 08:14:01 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Sir David (part 2)
Subject: Re: The missing technique
Message:
All very interesting David, and I agree totally. Incidently I too have been meditating and have been having a lovely experience these last days. I fail to see what my lovely experience has got to do with Maharaji though. I have managed to quit associating the practice of meditation with the 'grace of Maharaji' and it is still there and very nice. I think premies are on a very narrow minded trip and are very confined by the belief system that has been tagged on to this simple practice.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 21:23:08 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Anon
Subject: Re: The missing technique
Message:
Glad you're having a good experience, Anon. My experience comes and goes, as ever and I don't worry these days if there's nothing there or no apparent concentration. I just relax and carry on with living and then surprise, surprise; an experience comes. My experience has always been that any meditation must be a relaxed thing, otherwise it only makes life harder. Now I've seen through M's game I feel no ties to him. I am helping run a stress clinic soon and will include meditation as part of the therapy, together with aromatherapy and massage. I won't be doing the massage. The people who show an interest in meditation won't be made to wait for months to be told how to do it and neither will they be threatened with rotting vegitables if they decide not to practise it. My experience for the last 26 years has always been that meditation is a peaceful thing. Anyone who uses threats and coersion is obviously not experiencing peace of mind. I guess that many of the people on this forum have been put off doing a bit of meditation by M's ranting and raving. People came to M because they wanted some inner peace and happiness. And yet they got hooked into one hell of a heavy trip that probably put them off the idea of meditation for life. He made such a heavy trip out of something so simple and natural. The main reason could be becausehe's always had the Hindu religious thing to keep up and also doesn't understand meditation himself. If you're at peace with yourself you don't lay trips on people or try to subjugate them. I see it clearly now. Thanks to you ex-premies who have simply told the truth.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 22:05:22 (EST)
Poster: bottled
Email: **
To: Sir David (part 2)
Subject: air (Re: The missing technique)
Message:
Thanks David, classic eastern stuff, god is some distant inner thing that the regular folks can just forget about. People everywhere are very busy and have a hard time with even small things in thier life. some issues they have already fallen flat on thier face and they are guilty of whatever mistakes they are conditioned to identify as mistakes, so many people are plagued by regrets and by compulsions they cannot get beyond. The eastern geniuses would have us be adrift and alone for our whole lives and they paint some practically unattainable effort as the only goal of life. How foolish and mean are these teachings. Whatever merit there might be to focusing on something is completely negated by the dogma that comes wrapped around it. Like anon said- bottled air.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 16:28:35 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: History Question
Message:
This is a question of historical accuracy: It says in our newly named "Nuts and Bolts" section that the non - indian ashrams were closed in 1980; however, I don't remember it that way. I left in 1982 and they were still in existence at that time, otherwise how could I have LEFT something that did not exist anymore? Unless it was because I was secluded in Miami Beach and did not know what was going on in the rest of the country, but I seriously doubt that. I thought they closed about a year after I left. In fact, I always thought it was because I left that they eventually closed...ha ha, just kidding.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:26:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
This is a question of historical accuracy: It says in our newly named 'Nuts and Bolts' section that the non - indian ashrams were closed in 1980; however, I don't remember it that way. I left in 1982 and they were still in existence at that time, otherwise how could I have LEFT something that did not exist anymore? Unless it was because I was secluded in Miami Beach and did not know what was going on in the rest of the country, but I seriously doubt that. I thought they closed about a year after I left. In fact, I always thought it was because I left that they eventually closed...ha ha, just kidding. You are right, John. I left the ashram in 1983 and they were still open, at least for a few months after that. I told Brian I would work on the post-1975 historical stuff, because I noticed a couple of things in there that aren't completely accurate. Maybe after I re-do it, I could e-mail it to you and you could add any recollections you might have.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:33:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
The other problem with the 1975-1980 historical stuff is that it doesn't even address what was going on in the west. I think 1976 (the loosening) should be addressed and then a discussion of the 1977-1982 super-devotional period, the plane project, the programs, the illegal fundraising and the like. The India stuff is interesting, but probably not directly related to the experience of most of the premies and ex-premies who will read the site.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:04:52 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
History accuracy : From what I know DLM and ashrams didn’t close at the same time in all the places. Lots of factors were at work : M had lost all his cases in court against his mother and very likely lost ownership of DLM’s name. Very few people knew about it, and he didn’t want to tell this for obvious reasons : how could ever God lose a battle .... He made conference after conference at the end of the 70s and beginning of the 80s. He did not have much control over what was happening, even in ashrams. Try to remember who had authority in an ashram at that time: ashram co-ordinators/secretary, local co-ordinators, mahatmas, national co-ordinators, etc Many other authorities were involved, and it took time for him to get rid of all these mahatmas, co-ordinators, instructors, etc All these big shots were doing what they wanted to do. He was furious about it, but he couldn’t do much about it. He was (and still is) a not so almighty autocrat. I think that he said in various ashram conferences in 79 that ashrams were not ashrams anymore for him. I remember I heard that at that time. Then it took time to close all of them. He needed these guys to support him, and he couldn’t fire everybody at once. He had is own logic, and I think it’s still the same thing today. People around him are amazed by his mindblowing ideas of a pre-psychotic dangerous guru. He had lost most of his organization in the beginning of the 80s. He might have kept some strong ashrams here and there to give him some support. He tried to start something else with his hundreds of part-time instructors in the 80s. It didn’t work. He is now trying something else ...... His video system is quite efficient, except that almost anybody can get them and analyze them. He is probably going to do something stupid about this, wait and see! ! The result might be even worse for him, thanks to the Internet. As he is aware of this, he might find something more tricky, like hiding his secret teaching in ‘knowledge centers’, keeping his powerful satsangs for big international 3 days events and sending out innocent beautiful introductory videos. And finding a young intelligent successor because he is tired of this. This is a wild guess of course. I wonder how someone else could be convinced he is god made flesh.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 11:22:18 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Mr. Ex: Now that I think about this, it makes me curious. What was the general reaction when the news went out that the ashrams were to close? Who actually announced it? Did M announce it at a program? I can imagine that a lot of ashram premies could have been somewhat skeptical at first. Also, were there any instructions given as to what the ashram premies were to do next? Like, go back to school, pick a career, that kind of stuff. On a slightly different subject, I had gone to the dentist about six months before I left the ashram. Actually the guy in charge of our ashram refused to let me get a crown which the dentist said I needed, but anyway that's another story. After I left the ashram, I was trying to get an apartment and I was told I had an outstanding bill on my credit report. The ashram had never paid for my dentist visit. That really pissed me off. The guy in charge of my ashram was such a low life. Can you imagine not paying for a dentist visit? I mean, how stupid can you get? Obviously, you will need to go again. Besides, it's simply dishonest. I wonder if anyone else had a 'bad experience' with bills after the ashrams closed?
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 12:34:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Thats interesting about "losing ownership of DLM's name." And I can see why he wouldn't want to advertise that he lost the case, but I don't think that had anything to do with closing the ashrams. At least to the ashram premies, at the ashram meetings he conducted, as late as 1981, Maharaji was still saying that the ashrams were essential to his mission and that premies should feel privileged to live there, and, further, that all kinds of draconian things would happen to you if you moved out. He was also continuing to make ashram residents initiators right and left. I think part of the reason for not using the DLM name was that DLM was associated with all kinds of improper financial dealings when it came to Maharaji, most blatantly in the way the millions were raised, deceitfully, to get him that Boeing 707 he wanted so badly, and he wanted to distance himself from it. Hence the name change to Elan Vital, and the formation of "The Office of Guru Maharaj Ji" in about 1979 or 1980. Now, it's interesting to hear Ros Sutton quoted as saying that all the cult-like issues of the past went away with DLM and that it was DLM that was the problem, not Maharaji. That, of course, is a pile of crap, and anyone who was around at the time knows it. Maybe it was different in other countries, but I really think that in the States, the regional coordinators took direction from Maharaji as to how the ashrams should be handled. Hence, for example, in 1981 Maharaji told the regional directors, like David Smith, to "clean up the ashrams" and he began an inquisition that I have mentioned before. Obviously, as usual, Maharaji wasn't really clear as to what he meant by that comment, and he constantly changed his mind as he was wont to do on just about everything. Hence, a truly nasty person like David Smith could take it the way he wanted to with predictably negative results on a vulnerable population of ashram residents. I think the ashrams were closed because they added to the external evidence that Maharaji really was heading up a cult. Also, the ashram residents were getting older, many were getting illnesses, etc. and it would be expensive to support them. Also, the plane project took hundreds of ashram residents out of their income-producing jobs and into non-income-producing "service." Hence, the ashrams were not the cash cow they had been. I know there were malingerers in the ashrams, (people afraid of the world, etc) but in my experience that was a small fraction of the ashram residents. By and large, they were hard-working, devoted, premies, often quite bright and industrious, who had given up years of their lives, careers, educations, family ties, etc. to surrender to Maharaji in his ashrams and to serve him in any way he wanted. I think many expected to spend their entire lives there; I know I did, and that's what makes it so amazing that Maharaji just shut them down at some point when he wasn't into them anymore, despite years of telling the ashram premies of how important the ashrams were to him and to them. By the way, a lot of the ashrams had debts when they were closed. Neither EL or M contributed to paying off those debts. The ashram residents had to divide up those debts when the ashrams closed and continued paying them off, sometimes for years. I know M also knew he needed to get rid of the bureaucracy of initiators (also very expensive) and staff (expensive), because donations were drying up and the expenses were still there. I was at NHQ in 1979 and there was a huge financial crisis at that time, as well as a need for millions for the Boeing 707. After the plane was finished, the debts were huge and M had to cut costs. Hence he did his own version of "downsizing" both as to staff, initiators/instructors, and ashrams. That's what I think, anyway, it was basically a PR issues, but even more a financial one. When it comes to Maharaji, the adage to "follow the money" will almost always lead you in the right direction as to what is really going on. I understand Maharaji is again in a financial crisis so he may have to figure something else out in order for him to continue to live his lavish lifestyle. Right now, I would assume, he makes most of his money off selling those videos to captive communities at inflated prices, from certain businesses like that Amtext business, the entrance fee at programs, and donations sent directly to him and received when he gives a darshan line. I'm also sure that there continues to be fundrasing for "special projects" like some new, more luxuious, plane that the lord wants. JW
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 13:03:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Mr. Ex: Now that I think about this, it makes me curious. What was the general reaction when the news went out that the ashrams were to close? Who actually announced it? Did M announce it at a program? I can imagine that a lot of ashram premies could have been somewhat skeptical at first. Also, were there any instructions given as to what the ashram premies were to do next? Like, go back to school, pick a career, that kind of stuff. On a slightly different subject, I had gone to the dentist about six months before I left the ashram. Actually the guy in charge of our ashram refused to let me get a crown which the dentist said I needed, but anyway that's another story. After I left the ashram, I was trying to get an apartment and I was told I had an outstanding bill on my credit report. The ashram had never paid for my dentist visit. That really pissed me off. The guy in charge of my ashram was such a low life. Can you imagine not paying for a dentist visit? I mean, how stupid can you get? Obviously, you will need to go again. Besides, it's simply dishonest. I wonder if anyone else had a 'bad experience' with bills after the ashrams closed? John, I am also very interested in how the closing of the ashrams was explained to the residents. I wasn't around for that, but I do recall in late 1982, David Smith told us that the ashram residents should begin handling their own money, or at least do that to some extent, and sort of pay rent to the ashram , etc. I was in San Francisco at the time, and had been ashram housefather. I had been very careful to keep the ashram out of debt, including refusing to give money for yet ANOTHER plane that M wanted in 1982. I just said we didn't have the money, but I'm sure some of the ashram brothers would have been angry with me if they knew I did that. Some people thought we should just donate everything to M and rely on his "grace" to take care of any problems. At that point, someone else became the housefather, and I recall I paid "rent" for a few months before I moved out completely. It was very strange. I expressed my doubts about Maharaji to a few people, most of whom stopped talking to me entirely. Speaking of dentists, I never went to the dentist the entire time I lived in the ashram, except once, when a filling fell out and I had to. There was never the money to do it, because we were sending 10% of our money to DLM and another 10% directly to Maharaji to his p.o. box in Malibu. Plus, he was doing a lot of programs and that was very expensive. After I left, fortunately, I got a job with good dental insurance, and had to have a lot of dental work done. I think this was common among ashram residents. Also, in Chicago, as housefather, I bought a car for the ashram in my name. I was transferred to another community a few months after that. Years later, when applying for a loan, I discovered a negative entry on my credit rating. When I checked further, I found out that payments were late, and/or skipping on paying for that car, unbeknownst to me. That negative credit rating hounded me for years. JW
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 17:32:19 (EST)
Poster: big
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: fang (Re: History Question)
Message:
The reason we had so much dental work was that the diet was almost exclusively carbohydrates. There was no explanation given for the closure of the ashrams and many of the devotee types really struggled over the change, thinking it was some test or whatever.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 18:06:00 (EST)
Poster: no
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: excuse (Re: History Question)
Message:
You said that m said 'clean up the ashrams' and wasn't really clear as to what he mean't, hence a truly nasty person like dave smith could go off on a rampage. m would go off on really heavy and negative rants and send people off after that and they would operate off that input. He had a life long style of being domineering and , well, I will find the time to articulate about m for the web site at length. But don't think for a minute that m didn't have his hand in everything and that premies were just acting outside of his direct influence. He learned early on that being pissed and complaining worked real well in controlling people. He never hesitated to do that except when he was trying to perform the public act. Of course being in public didn't stop him many times. He was at a restaurant and completely went ballistic at the waiter over some imagined offense of either the food or the 'service'. He went into a rage at his first flight teacher in denver and sent that guy packing. When he was talking about that incident in the mid 90's he said 'knowledge and ignorance is poison'. Well, for all his mid life crisis, he still managed to aaarugh.... I'll do this some other time.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 19:04:20 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW, Joy, John, bb, etc.
Subject: Re: Ex-Ashram Ex-Premies (Re: History Question)
Message:
Dear JW, Joy, John K, bb, and anyone else who lived in the ashram for a while: I would really like it if you could write about your life (lives) in the ashram in detail. When I first came upon the ex-premie site, one of the things that really radicalized me and made me think that perhaps following GM wasn't "OK" was the archives digest entitled "Ashrams". I had a lot of friends who lived in the ashram, including my friend who killed himself, and reading that made me really angry. I left in early 1977 when things were not so bad, at least in the community I lived in (I did live with an ex-housemother when I was 'deprogramming' and she had some pretty horrendous stories about what was expected of her.) But I (and others, I'm sure) would really like to hear all of your stories (if you care to tell them, that is).
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 19:49:37 (EST)
Poster: ASHRAM
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: THE (Re: History Question)
Message:
THE ASHRAM My best ever experience of the knowledge was when I was far away from ashrams, premies, satsang or "video events" as I believe they're now called. I was working in a hotel by the seaside and had long periods just sitting around waiting for someone to order tea and sandwiches and would sit in my little porters room, spacing out into the word. I got deeper and deeper into it as the days went on and was amazed by the sheer pleasure of it. Eventually I left my seaside haven and moved back to London and started attending satsang again to be told how I had to devote my life to Maharaji and live in an ashram. In the years I lived in the ashram I found it more and more difficult to meditate, with the heavy work load, lack of sleep and constant badgering from other premies. After two years I left the ashram, a total wreck and to this day, I've never had the same depth or duration of meditation as I'd had in my seaside haven. This left me with a question. If Maharaji was the Lord then why did he persuade me to go and live in an ashram and therefore lose my experience of the knowledge? * As a teenager I was very affected by all this 'join the Ashram' pressure. I was certainly very intimidated on numerous occasions of 'heavy Satsangs' often from Maharaji himself, mainly in closed 'Ashram premies only' meetings. * I'm an ex-English ex-premie and I experienced living in a WPC ashram in the early days. The low spot of my life, for sure. I've posted longish post inviting discussion among ex-premies under the title "MAHARAJI, a way to avoid feelings and facts." I had lots of good times too, but as I mention in my post, there is a sort of sweet insidiousness about the whole thing that bothers me. It was a cult, it was mind-control, Maharaji was (is?) clearly a manipulator. I know lots of inner circle people, including a close friend who lived with him for many years and was devastated by his abuse and is just recovering after 12 years away from him. * A man walked into a bar with a pile of dog shit in his hand and said "look what I almost stepped in." It seems to apply to the individuals who thrive on negativity about Maharaji.I don't understand the negativity.I received knowledge in 1971. It was free. At that time many people chose to"give up their material things" and move into an Ashram. I didn't want to, and didn't." - X Okay, so you were a greased pig. Lucky you. Some of us, on the other hand, trusted Maharaji about as much as he wanted. He said 'jump', we asked how high. He said move into the ashram, we did. We trusted him b/c he asked us to and we were told by EVERYONE -- from the top down -- that he was the Lord. You clung to the edge of the bowl, but it was still a toilet. * I left when I got ripped apart internally, which threatened my health on many levels. It was when MJ reinstated the ashrams which I had gladly escaped after 6 years, and clearly implied that complete devotion (meaning enlightenment, making it, etc.) depended on moving back into the shram. I was happily married and finally getting some rest after the frantic pace of ashram life and day and night service, satsang and meditation I had been in for 6 years. I attended some of the inner circle meetings with MJ in the years from 77-83, and I heard him yell and threaten and belittle anything less than total, total, dedication. He told friends of mine who were instructors that they "should never think one sexual thought, or they would be cast out," and that the ideal was to be burned up like a match, that their needs didn't matter, etc. etc. Since we were a rich couple, it was tacitly implied that we were okay being married (the pipeline would have dried up if we moved back into the ashram) but at the same time, we would never be able to do the "real" thing, which was to be an initiator and really devoted, etc. Anyway, all this tore me apart inside. Having entered the cult at age 19, I was, by age 30, a seriously confused wreck. * I found myself praying to the one true God from the bottom of my heart to make sense of what had befallen me. I was taking a breather in between a seemingly endless barrage of Maharaji films at an all weekend Ashram Premie Satsang meeting. I could physically feel "Holy Name" or "Practice technique No.3" (as it is now called) pumping through my body. But it actually was of no comfort. I remembered the innocence of my childhood., my aspirations to serve the True God, my sincerity and the bliss and lightness of my world at that time. Now it was all heavy. Heavy indoctrination. Yes, maybe an inner world of peaceful meditation sometimes, but somehow not quite reality, not enough. The peaceful moments were somehow undermined by the Heaviness, the relentlessness of Maharaji demanding my respect and commitment.The severity of his ashram regime at that time. The pummelling down of my world and the inescapable monotone pleasurelessness of this new world, like the cave to which the Pied Piper led the enchanted children and in which he subsequently entombed them forever. I remained out of a sense of hope and loyalty until the bitter end. * Sure I promised certain things to Maharaji. I promised to never leave the ashram either. We all did. All of us in the 'shram took that vow. We became renunciates for the Lord. It wasn't supposed to be a temporary thing. So what? He changes the cosmic rules of the game? Those promises mean nothing? I don't know. I'd like to hear Maharaji really deal with that one. How is it he could make such a big deal about our ashram commitment, only to close the party a few years later? I don't care about some makeshift premie's answer to this question. Truth is, none of us know. Only Maharaji and, as we see, he ain't talking. Not yet, in any event. * The fact is there was pressure on every single, unencumbered premie who who wanted to REALLY follow Maharaji to give it all up and move into the ashram. Maharaji himself gave a lot of satsang about how bad it was to sit on the sidelines. Add to him all the mahatmas who went so far as to break up married couples if they thought they could. Not always, not everywhere but often enough. To truly understand the pressure though you had to experience what it was like to try to LEAVE the ashram. Maharaji himself set the tone with his 'closed' ashram satsangs. Like the one he gave at Kissimee in 1979 or 80. Heavy shit. Much like the 'secret' initiator satsang he gave in those days (ever see the initiator's "confidential" manual with its complete hellfire-and-damnation-if-you-ever-get-into-your-mind trip? I'm not lying. Ask around if you don't believe me). Leaving the ashram was so tough then that premies who did split went through incredible turmoil more often than not. Maybe you didn't have this experience. Maybe, quite frankly, you just never trusted Maharaji enough to really follow him as he wanted. My last word on the ashram is this: Maharaji did indeed talk out of both sides of his mouth. I perfectly remember all the time he said you don't have to do this, don't have to do that, that Knowledge wasn't a religion, etc. etc. Tell me then why he tried to scare the hell out of anyone trying to leave the ashram then? Fact is, he gave a simple, non-threatening line to people who could only handle that level of involvement. For those who really had the bug, however, his vice clamped down much harder. Don't forget: this was supposedly a path of complete surrender. We surrendered the reigns of our life to him, no? Surrendered our minds and promised to never doubt or question, well, more specifically to leave no room for doubt. Please don't minimise the historical record. This was a VERY consuming trip for those who trusted him. That's all it took, trust in Maharaji. And why not? He was, after all, the Lord. * "Or about how NOW is the time to give up all and move into the ashrams as soon it WILL BE TOO LATE to do any service for him, that time is now!? I answered his siren call as best I could. WE weren't to train for any careers b/c a) that's the ego's terrain and b) Maharaji was going to so quickly overrun the current world order as we knew it the only real effort worth expending was just telling people he'd arrived. I wasted about eight years doing that. As far as "soon too late" well, he does seem to have backed off his mission a bit. It's not quite the same is it? (Again, please check out my other post to tane). * I haven't suffered from Mr. Ji myself (apart from watching a video out of politeness at the home of one of his adorers in London, which was quite pointless and very boring - just like a Methodist sermon), but my wife and her brother suffered for several years. Her brother joined an 'ashram' in Johannesburg, his father lent to house to the Ji organisation, when they were closed down, they arranged to sell it and pocketed the cash. Her brother learned no useful skills as a result and lives a pretty pathetic existence now supported by his mother. * It seems that us premies who gave our lives to MJ in the ashram are the only ones who are charged up with a real sense of injustice enough to speak out about it. * So I stared intently at Maharaji's picture, asking him the question: 'Can I really trust you?' I put everything I had into that question, and I really wanted a positive answer. Suddenly there was a sharp 'crack' which startled the audience. The glass covering Maharaji's portrait had split from top to bottom. What did I make of it? I completely ignored the sign I had asked for and went on to waste three years living the ashram life. * When I believed in Maharaji I still wanted to leave the ashram sometimes. Know why I didn't? Because, in my faith, I believed that Maharaji, being omnipresent, was actually there with me even as I had those thoughts and that I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I remember feeling that maybe he was hurt by those premies who did take back their bodies which was kind of how I saw it all. I lived to merge with him, to surrender "jim" and be just a pure devotee. Then, as time went by further and I started feeling more comfortable with my thoughts and feelings again, I started slowly seizing back a bit of my own mental space. I kept a part of me quite selfishly. I reinstated a bit of Jim's private mentality. As I did I started feeling more and more at home with myself again. Lance, do you know what it was like to BE an intense ashramie? We were supposed to want no identity of our own, we were lambs offering ourselves up for slaughter, the sooner the better. Did you ever feel that way? Do you now? How about the premie sitting next to you at the next program, the one who's only heard Maharaji's 'lite' satsang and knows nothing of his earlier apocalyptic, messianic all-or-nothing years? I dunno.......are there words for the kind of disgust this engenders? Cheers, nonetheless * I personally find it shocking that you feel Maharaji owes you something for your years of "whatever you did" in the ashram. Or it could be that you are just pursuing a bit of ambulance chasing. I hope that you had at least a few memorable experiences.... * Look, you say you've been following this discussion and, for your sake,I hope you're exaggerating. I hope you've just recently tuned in and haven't had a lot of time to give it all much thought before you spoke.Do you know what the ashrams were? Were you really around then? Do you know what moving into an ashram was about and why people did it? Did YOU? I'll tell you in a nutshell. The ashram was the place you went if you were serious about following Maharaji. It was the place you went to truly surrender your mind for which, as he frankly explained, the Knowledge was like poison. The ashram was Maharaji's trip, 1 million per cent.He wanted to suck as many of us as he could into it and, when people wanted to leave, he gave us threatening satsang as to the consequences.Don't believe me? Ask him for a transcript of some of the "ashram"satsangs he gave in the late '70's before he realised it was hopeless,people were going to leave no matter how much he tried to scare them, so better get with the program and pretend that closing the 'shrams was his idea. * So, what'd we do in the ashram? NOTHING! That was the whole point! If we spun our wheels there forever, dusting the kitchen like some archetypal humble Indian premie, we might have been on the right track.No careers (ego), no relationships (what do you think?), no nothing.Just slavish dedication to one goal: surrendering further and further to Maharaji. See, the reason I mentioned the letter we got from him is that he made it very clear that if we were serious about following him and "realising" the Knowledge, we couldn't trust ourselves? How could we? The "higher" we'd get, the more desperate and hence tricker the mind would get. Don't you know what I'm talking about? Don't you recall the whole question of who had truly surrendered the reigns of their life and who had tried to get them back? Maybe you weren't there,maybe you were. But one thing I'm telling you -- I'm telling you the truth. Plain, simple truth. The path was one of complete devotion.There was no other path, all the rest was the mind and thus bullshit. Why did we love the mahatmas so much? Because they were supposedly where we wanted to go? Absolute devotion, the ultimate bond with the Lord. Maharaji used to inspire us with the story of the "good" premie who served his Maharaji so selflessly that, when his life was finally exhausted like a burnt match, could honestly say that he barely recalled living that little life at all. The point was that it wasn't the devotee's life to begin with. It was Maharaji's all along and now, by surrendering the life back to Maharaji, the devotee had given the only gift the lowly mortal could ever return to his Lord. That's what the ashram was. * 'I hope that you had at least a few memorable experiences.' So, yes friend, I had a lot of 'memorable moments' including one of my best friends in the ashram hanging himself because he felt that his mind was too full of doubt [see commandments above] to ever love Maharaji properly. Okay, there was a lot of 'fun' too. I sang, played guitar,was very social in a way, loved to give satsang, etc. On the good ship Maharaji, we all enjoyed ourselves to some extent. But there was only one reason we were there and not living our own lives however which way we might: he promised he was taking us somewhere. It was all premised on that. So what of it? Did he change his mind? * Before you start calling ME an asshole consider what I'm reacting to. I'm disgusted, make that DISGUSTED, with premies who feel it's their service to Maharaji to protect him at all costs even if it means twisting the truth as necessary. I lived in the ashram for eight years of my life man! That's no small amount of time to be completely dependent on a guru's vision only to have him years later deny he ever said all that funnelled me into his little fun house to begin with. Who the fuck are you to smirk away that reality? * Care to speculate on how many couples Maharaji broke up? How many people he pressured to give up their vain, ego loves and just serve him? We're talking families with kids too sometimes. Oh, I know, he'd say one thing sometimes and sometimes the opposite. Sometimes he WOULD say that raising a family could be service, but the implication was that it was service only if you couldn't get out of it somehow. He sure didn't encourage unencumbered premies to hook up with each other and ESPECIALLY hated it when ashram premies did the human thing. * There are those who received Knowledge before Maharaji stopped having Ashrams etc. They did not 'surrender the reigns of their lives' in the manner proposed as the 'ideal' by Maharaji at the time. Instead they "fitted Knowledge into their lives" as he put it , meditating occasionally, not making a total sacrifice, turning up occasionally for inspiration, to see their friends etc. They may have had family responsibilities etc. This would have been reason enough to avoid having to seriously consider becoming an Ashram Premie, which was stated clearly by Maharaji as being the path for the truly committed. These 'undisillusioned' premies form the' hard core' of premies today as I see it. They have few doubts about Maharaji as they have never been disillusioned as a result of making a huge sacrifice only to find that the Ashrams were closed and they were left high and dry, on the street again. Their individual commitment was not so full time. They feel no loss.They don't need to undergo any further soul searching as the lifestyle suits them socially and they are along with many others, happy with things as they are. * Maharaji, on his very own with no family to blame, revived all the religious bullshit for a few years in the late '70's. How do you explain that? He went for truth, then scrambled to deceive again, then back to truth? We were already well on the road to where things are now in 1976 before Maharaji himself scared us all into what I have call the really sick, pathetic religiosity of 1977 through '80, 81. All the marathon 'woe-is-me-I'm-a-real-sinner-'cause-I-thought-of-leaving-the-ashram-and-you-and-getting-a-life-of-my-own-for-a-bit-there' satsang he forced us to repeat hour after hour, day after day. What do you think was happening in the ashram retreats then or, worse, the initiator 'training sessions'? It was all weepy 'we-almost-left-you-and-started-thinking-for-ourselves-but-thankfully-you-saved-us-again' shit. Later, of course, he changed his mind again and ENCOURAGED us to chill a bit and get our little lives happening. The question is, who're you going to scapegoat for that little tour? Joan Apter? * Now think back. 1976. The ashrams are closing, people are untethering themselves from the early DLM traditions and views. Wherever they came from, whoever was responsible for them, we were sick of them. "Let's get real", we said. Satsang became less party line about how great and good Maharaji and Knowledge was and more about our experiences -- good and bad. Now, I'm not saying that was good. I'm not saying one way or the other. But that is what was happening. Until.... Until Essen. That was the DUO directors meeting, remember? Maharaji called all the guys together for a little "refocusing" session. We'd given up devotion, he warned us. It was time to pray. And pray we did. Thus commenced the second run of religiosity in DLM. Endless marathon satsangs, day in and day out in some communities, where we benumbed ourselves with two themes One was the incredible mercy of our Lord, our living Perfect Master, our Satguru Maharaji. The other was our sneeky, deeky minds that had almost cost us our lives of surrender and devotion. Brother, it was more religious than ever before and brother, it was all his. And thee ain't no one else to pin it on. It was all Maharaji's trip. Oh sure, I don't doubt that some premie somewhere spread some sensational rumour about Maharaji manifesting in some Baskin and Robbins somewhere. But that was small change compared to the rumours he encouraged about himself. If you don't remember, I'd be happy to go over the old satsangs with you chapter and verse. And yes, we could fight about every passage. But you know, you know. Put another way: what religious bullshit are your referring to that he was not responsible for? Arti? His. The divine succession trip (x, y, Shri Hans, Maharaji, z, ...)? His. The 'one perfect master in the world at a time' trip? His. Face it, James, this self-satisfied stuff of yours doesn't cut it: Well, big surprise! It wasn't a religion.It was not dependent on ashrams, beliefs, philosophies, lifestyles, or anything else. We took our expectations and our ideas and tried to mold Knowledge to fit. Another big surprise! It doesn't fit. From what I have seen over the years, the things that don't have anything to do with Knowledge, Maharaji has gotten rid of. Maharaji only got rid of the ashrams cause everyone was splitting. I mean these were religious, right? Chastity, poverty, obedience. Looks like it. Remember, Maharaji STOKED the ashrams back up in late '76. Why? Who can you blame for that, James. And let me tell you, as recently as 1980 Maharaji was trying to scare the living hell out of anyone even thinking of leaving his holy order. I know, I was there. So who you gonna put that one on? Me? Did I do that? Well, I beg your pardon. And all along I thought I was just trying to follow the truth and the Lord who'd shown it to me. Now, thanks to your rich insight, I realise that I was creating a religion! Holy cow!! * Look, did you ever have any "special" service of any kind? It could have been anything from doing some "direct" service for Maharaji himself at the res or at a program or maybe even just playing tennis with Gurucharanand. "Special" in this context simply means relatively rare and coveted by the group at large. In other words, when Raja Ji came to Ottawa, and we had his holiness and his princess over for dinner at the ashram, the fact that WE ashramies could be there but the regular community could not, well that's special. Just common pecking order stuff. Universal and obvious. Nonetheless we were all completely caught up in it. It was unavoidable.r * The DLM once had 45 ashrams, and information centres in 110 cities in the US. Income from these sources allowed Maharaji to buy an US$80,000 building in Denver, land worth US$400,000 in Malibu (Los Angeles), limousines, racing-cars, and helicopters, while his devotees led simple lives. Incorporated as a nonprofit tax-exempt church in Colorado, it became a a multi-million dollar operation -Los Angeles Times, 12/1/1979 * I'd like to get one thing straight about the comments I saw that certain people expressing their views here are just angry because MJ closed the ashrams and they were more into the ashrams than into MJ. Also, I heard some incredible revisionist historical statements that MJ closed the ashrams because they got in the way, and he was never really into them anyway. 1. First, MJ made it clear in the ashram meetings, and throughout the mahatmas and initiators, that the ashrams were essential to his mission and it was absolutely the worst thing you could do to move out. So, there you were if you wanted to devote your life, which he also required. He also said the ashram premies were closer to him than the non-ashram premies. I was there, I heard it. Quote from Bill Patterson to me circa 1975: 'If you want to dedicate and surrender to Guru Mararaj Ji, that means ashram, there is no other way.' Patterson was also armed with other quotes directly from MJ on the same issue. 2. The above position of MJ was not popular with me, because I personally hated living in the ashrams because, among other things, 1.) You couldn't have sex (actually this is reasons 1-10); 2.) You couldn't own anything and had no freedom to do anything you like; 3.) You had no privacy; 4.) You were cut off from your family; 5.) You couldn't have a career, no matter how much you were interested in having one, 6.) You had to be vulnerable to the whims of several mentally deranged and sadistic Mahatmas and Initiators who came through on a regular basis (Fakiranand (bang bang), Parlokanand (who sexually molested little boys while giving divine knowledge on the side), and others I won't mention except to say they were some of the most miserable and freaked-out people I have ever met, and 7.) You had to live with at least a few generally annoying people. Although I hated living there, I stayed because I wanted to follow his directions and devote myself to him, on every level, not because I was devoted to the ashram. 3. If Maharaj Ji closed the ashrams because they 'got in the way' that implies they were a mistake. And they were a 'mistake' that had profound effects on the lives of many people. Does the Lord of the Universe make mistakes? Has he ever admitted that? Taken in context with what he said at the ashram meetings, it's hard to take it any other way. Or where the ashrams just a phase MJ was going through and a few thousand pesky human beings just happened to get in the way, turning over all their money, damaging any career potential they ever had and damaging their relations with their families? Gee whiz, I guess we just screwed up his plans and he had to close them. Oh, I forgot, MJ is only responsible for the good stuff and everything else is our fault! Right. He can't have it both ways and we shouldn't let him. At least for the record. * I am writing because I moved into in the Ashram in 1978 and stayed until they closed. I really thought it was what Maharaji wanted me to do. I believed Maharaji was my Lord and I followed his instructions completely sincerely and closely. I am still coming to terms with the painful realisation that it was a TRAGIC waste of my youth. I still feel so let down and disillusioned. I hoped for years that Maharaji would meet with those who had given their lives to him and offer some conciliatory words at least. I attended programs, watched endless videos, practiced, practiced, practiced.... clung on , always giving Maharaji the benefit of the doubt, hoping that I would feel clearer about things. Instead of helping me and others to reconcile these problems he has brushed ASIDE the whole matter, along with his so-called LOVE & concern for our LIVES. His flippant attitude towards my past (along with many other things he has said and done that I can no longer condone ), has made me fundamentally mistrust him and his teaching. He has only got time for sycophants. I feel that he stole part of my youth that I can never retrieve. I am now making up for lost time and feel essentially much happier for it. However I still carry a huge resentment towards him for persuading me in my innocence to devote my life for years to him in his ashrams. He IMPOSED ON ME a lifestyle which promised much but in reality was EXTREMELY psychologically unhealthy for me. I am not going to waste my time arguing with blinkered premies who feel differently. I know now that I need to express MY WRATH about this and I agree that an effort should be made to get Maharaji to face it. It was too devastating an experience to move on from without feeling any sense that there should be some retribution. I feel that Maharaji is getting away without having to take responsibility for those words and actions of his that directly caused so much suffering. That 's what this site is all about. If it means offending him or being disrespectful. Well that's tough. He led me a-stray and I will never have those years back. But does he care? Why should he? HE THINKS HE'S GOT A DIVINE RIGHT TO WRECK A FEW LIVES. Got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, right ? WRONG. NOT IF IT MEANS PLAYING WITH MY LIFE. I am damned if I am going to sit back and let him be as flippant as he has been about people like me without speaking up. Why are Maharaji and premies incapable of any human sympathy for those who have suffered at Maharaji's hands ? Because they have an unspoken agreement to perpetuate the myth, in their own minds, that any casualties along the way were self-inflicted. Maharaji can do no harm. It must be doubting-Thomas-like premies 'Turning away from Knowledge' and suffering 'The consequences of their actions'. They believe in the dualism of the Mind versus the Heart. A convenient myth that accords them a simplistic and blinkered view of human existence. * The premies in the ashram were told to remain celibate while M partook in the very pleasures they were to deny themselves.They lived in poverty while he lived in the wealth they provided for him. * Hi X. I just wanted to mention that if it wasn't for the commitment of ashram premies and today the people that do service, that the rest of the premies who love MJ, and meditate, couldn't fuel his plane (let alone pay for one) there wouldn't be any aspirants for him to give knowledge to, and the wonderful events that premies attend to enjoy the music and being with him just wouldn't happen. It's the zealous full time devotion of a very few that makes it possible. And when those people have something to say about that time in their life, maybe people should listen. And if there is anger maybe there's a reason! * ' You should not expect any response to any of your questions unless you treat him with the respect he deserves.' -L.Goss Mr Heller is evidently going through a lot of anger and has obviously lost his respect for the time being. Am I to understand that his disrespectful attitude invalidates his questions? I gather that his lack of respect is partly because he feels that the sincere sacrifice he made (8 years in an ashram ) was in vain. Surely he deserves some respect himself for the time he committed to understanding 'The greatest gift' . How much respect is Maharaji due from people that feel that it hasn't necessarily been earned ? * If you believe that he is your Lord, then you become his willing slave. You completely dedicate your life to him. In the course of serving him, of dedicating your life to him, you provide his means of support and income. That's really what's at the core of it. It's sad, because there's no provision being made for these people. There are so many of them in his ashrams. That word is roughly equivalent to the English word 'monastery'. He has a number of people living in them in a state of poverty, chastity and obedience. These people give all of their fruit of their labour to him. Some of them are probably under the impression that he is using it to spread his knowledge, to spread the practice of meditation and the means of inner peace to the people of the world. In fact, that's really not what happens. Most of the money just goes to support him in his lifestyle. (written in the 1970's) * This was also the period when GMJ said he was looking at land in Florida for a 'divine city' or something similar (at least he said that at an ashram meeting in 1980 at the Kissimee swamp). This set off alarms somewhere in my brain and I had images of the paranoia that could develop there, but I guess that never went anywhere; I think GMJ spent all the money on himself and there was never anything left to buy the land with, thank god. * Brian MacDermott is on the security roster. His wife is the head of ushering at large events. He is still nuttier than a fruitcake and incredibly funny. He is much in demand as a speaker at service meetings because he always lightens the mood.On a different note, I ran into him last year when he was being torn down by an ex-ashram premie who was in the 'married ashram' at the time Brian was telling parents to give their children to the care of nannies and go out and do full time service. This woman had spent about two months without her infant in an attempt to follow Brian's directive at that time, and she finally gave up, got her child back, and stayed home with the baby. Brian was a bundle of apologies about how stupid he'd been in those days. How uncaring and insensitive. * There were I don't know how many incarnations of Divine Light Mission that got formed, dissolved and re-formed. There was the ashram experiment and to my understanding, as soon as it proved to be uncomfortable or counter-productive for people, Maharaji himself disbanded it. * I didn't know that the ashram was an 'experiment' (failed, by the way). Don't you think GMJ had an obligation to let people know that, prior to encouraging their (costly) involvement in something that was just an 'experiment'? * I also wondered if the caste system you describe: (GMJ/mahatma/initiator/residence premie/ashram/rich premie/single premie/married-with-children-premie)was also intentional on GMJ's part. Is that what he came here to give us, a little bit of the India caste system right here in America? * I did see Heaven's Gate news shots & videos. They reminded me so much of DLM ashram's that I went out to search the net for info. on my old cult, DLM. The inexplicable conviction of those folks was scary. I also related to the barracks style of housing. Ashrams had away of being so attractive on the outside but on the inside, after they schmoozed you in it was basic training tactics 24hrs. I was a renegade premie of sorts. and those brothers & sisters that I lived with were very close. * I kept practising Knowledge always looking on the bright side and giving Maharaji the benefit of the doubt . Because, in the ashram , we were supposed to largely sever our family ties, I ,as an adult, never really got to know my dear, kind old dad. This I now resent. * It still seems rather mean to prescribe a lifetime of celibacy and teetotalism to ones followers.( As Maharaji did in the case of Ashram premies.) and then to secretly live the kind of lifestyle that would not be out of place in a Jackie Collins novel. * I grant that Tej (eshwaranand) was very realized then. This was when he stayed with us in Vancouver for a while and we really got to know him. He moved all the ashramies out of one house (we had two side by side) and secretly flew his girlfriend from Philly in. He was also fucking a couple of local premies too. One started giving 'star' satsang. You know she was centered out as someone who had actually realized the Knowledge and saw Maharaji's face everywhere. And that was just what Tejeshwaranand was able to do. Ah memories, memories. Now why doesn't Maharaji put out a Mahatma commemorative coin series? Who wouldn't buy a few Gurucharand's? But I digress. * Later (1977-78?) I was personally and privately interviewed by him (after his promotion to Chief Officer for Ashram recruitment) in order to qualify for becoming a Kosher Ashram premie. Thus the guy (David Smith) has some part in my history of incarceration in various of the 'residencies for the forlorn' that Maharaji had established across many towns and nations. * Thank you, I know it was not just me. In addition to the 'henchmen' label, which fits, it appeared to many of us that Smith had a strong sadistic streak in him that could show itself on the especially vulnerable ( i.e. those under his control, the most vulnerable of the ashram premies, especially during his great ashram inquisition in 1981 when Maharaj Ji apparently told him to 'clean up the ashrams.') This was troubling to me, especially when he told me that he truly believed that he was completely controlled by Guru Maharaj Ji and that anything that came into his head he should just do because it was divinely inspired (YIKES!). Even the other initiators used to comment that he needed professional psychiatric help. * When I was living in the ashram in the mid-70s DLM sent an ashram premie, who was having some emotional problems, to where I was living and I was his roommate. [Believe it or not, I was considered a very stable, together ashram premie, and so I was often assigned to room with people who were particularly freaked out.] Anyway, this guy was very uptight and rigid. He meditated for about five hours a day, never missed arti or satsang, and did whatever service he was told to do. He loved Guru Maharaj Ji immensely and wanted to dedicate his entire life to him. Anyway, after a while he began to open up to me a little and I learned something about him. He told me that he was really having trouble with sexual desires and he had to be very careful because he might slip up on his celibacy vows. Anyway, one day I came into the bathroom and found that he was trying to castrate himself with a razor; he said he was doing it because he just couldn't deal with the sexual desires that his mind was throwing at him. I was able to stop him before he did much damage, and after some medical attention, he seemed okay. I tried to argue that he needed professional psychiatric help, but the line I got from the powers that be and the mahatmas was that satsang, service and meditation were the solution to absolutely everything. [That may sound strange to you know, but that was definitely the prevailing view then, and that is what GMJ was saying.] Sometime after that, he slapped a sister in the ashram for talking and laughing in the satsang hall, which was not allowed. [I can't remember whose agya that was.] I don't think he hurt her, but everyone could see he was unravelling. Anyway, after the slap incident, the powers that be in the ashram called the police and had him arrested, and he was committed to a local mental facility. I remember visiting him there. It was a true snake pit. He had soiled his clothes and he had been given drugs such that he wasn't sure who I was. Eventually, he was sent to go live with his father. Once later I called his father who told me that a few years earlier, this guy had turned over his trust funds and all his other money and possessions to Guru Maharaj Ji and he was just a little incredulous that after the cult got what they wanted from this guy, and he became too much trouble, they just abandoned him. It was really hard for me. I couldn't reconcile how someone who had devoted their entire life to the Lord of the Universe, even if we was a little strange, could be abandoned by the Lord of the Universe, especially when he was one of the most vulnerable. I guess that was one of the first indications to me that Guru Maharaj Ji did not know or care about what was happening to the people who were slaving away for him and who sincerely gave themselves to him. No matter how hard I meditated and did service, I never lost that feeling entirely. I wonder what they guy is doing now? * I didn't intend to blame Guru Maharaj Ji for all the insensitive and stupid things that his organization, his mahatmas and administrators did to this poor ashram brother or to other people who were in Divine Light Mission. That would be illogical and unfair. But Guru Maharaj Ji is responsible to the extent he set up the whole situation where he was asking for total devotion and surrender and where there were ashrams in the first place, making people vulnerable to the kind of stuff that went on in them. Sure there was valuable stuff, but there was also destructive stuff, as I and others have mentioned here. If that brother was not trying to surrender and devote his life to Guru Maharaj Ji, which Guru Mahararj Ji had asked him to do, he never would have been there trying to stifle his sexual desires with a razor blade. Maybe he would have done something destructive elsewhere, who knows, but that doesn't change the fact that he was depending on GMJ to take care of him. Maybe that was a ridiculous thing to do, and in the end it turned out to be a ridiculous and stupid thing to do, but that doesn't mean that Guru Maharaj Ji does not share some ultimate responsibility for putting himself out there as this brother's lord and master. True, it doesn't let his other mindless, heartless, devotees off the hook either, but he remains at least somewhat ultimately responsible nonetheless. * I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time. The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me. As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it. * I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time. - No, you big silly. Nor did I. Those sort of things pale into insignificance for me. My gripes are that I dedicated my entire time to an incredibly boring and delusive life to which I was really unsuited. I never saw my family (until my Dad's death) , I helped to peddle and promote Maharaji as the Master. Gave him all my earnings etc. etc.(that bothered me morally when I saw where the money went ) Basically I learned the hard way. If MJ hadn't come along I would have been spared the madness of his authoritarian regime and could have concentrated on some other enjoyable pursuits in life. I didn't enjoy the Ashram. But I felt pressured by him to be there. If it had just been Knowledge and meditation I would have definitely been grateful. I feel I am repeating myself. I have done what you asked and reread your posts. Do me a favour and read my story in the Journey's section entitled 'Viewpoint' if you haven't already. I think I have expressed myself better there. The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me. As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it. - Well my experiences were honestly not all positive. Frankly I am baffled how any premie can honestly suggest that it has been an entirely positive experience. It sounds like wishful thinking to me. I know a number of really blatantly screwed up old premies who tiresomely insist that Knowledge and MJ keep them in great shape. They are clearly not telling the truth, believe me. Maybe you are like them. Maybe not. * As for 'pressured to leave your family' - this is what really does set me off. Pressured by WHOM? - David Smith for one! He had MJ's blessings didn't he??I don't think that you can ever have been to any of MJ's latter day ashram premie satsangs... at least not the one's I went to. You might not get so 'set off' about my complaint if you had . * Actually, the premise of my piece is that my relationships with my siblings, especially Erika, was very much harmed for a decade by her involvement with Maharaji--but that the post-1982 loosening/ devolution/ de-ashramification/ de-Hinduification of Mahraji's presentation and operation was a benign transformation. From my perspective, it allowed me to have my siblings (especially my sister) back in the land of the living. They stopped proselytising me. And for more than a dozen years now there has been NO tension over Maharaji. I don't know of any other 'cult' leader who willingly loosened the reins on his followers in this way--who, it can be argued, transformed his thing from a true cult to a more reasonable, sustainable, meditation-based religious community. - (Journalist for the New Yorker) * When I transferred to the Boston ashram in 1976, X (real name deleted )was the community coordinator. He announced a couple of days after I got there that he was leaving the ashram and getting married. Turns out he got one of the community premies pregnant and since GMJ was adamantly opposed to abortion, he had a sort of shotgun situation on his hands. Of course, about a year or so later, when GMJ was demanding total surrender once again after the 1976 loosening, X abandoned his wife and kid and moved back into the ashram, ending up in Miami meeting with GMJ to be his steward. I hope he eventually went back to his wife and kid. But I digress. * I was a happy, well-balanced, talented, educated, loving and sincere child who appreciated the gift of life that I had been given, and humbly aspired to fulfil my purpose through serving Maharaji who I truly believed would care for me as my Master. Maharaji then proceeded to convince and coerce me, at a vulnerable time in my life, with the medieval religion that he preached. He then encarcerated me in his ashram for years and took everything I had to offer materially and spiritually. My life was, and remains, my most precious gift and I never needed Maharaji or anyone else to remind me. I knew that from my childhood without any third party claiming to be the source of my inspiration or preaching to me about what I gratitude I owed them. I had so much to give in my life.Is it surprising that I felt disillusioned when at age 25 I found myself without a job or career,no family, my father dead, Maharaji laughing all the way to the bank, and feeling all the frustration of a having had my life's potential wasted? Yet there I was still polishing his brothers Lambourghini for the nth time. Yes, I carried on practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yes I have seen him all over the world many many times. I have been a fully paid up member of the Maharaji travel club. Since leaving the ashram I have been luckier than some. I have had the common sense and guts (apparently lacking in many premies) to be mercilessly conscientious and to look in the mirror to see what has truly become of my life. It has been enormously hard to face the reality, shake off the complacency and the anaesthetic denial and continue with hope and trust in Life. My suspicions and conclusions about the reality of Maharaji and the whole Guru, Master business have come gradually, over many years, as a result of using my common sense and discrimination whilst practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter with good faith. Since leaving the ashram many premies have suffered terrible difficulties in trying to get going on their own. I have carved out for myself and my newly acquired family, what some would consider to be an enviable career and lifestyle. But I will always be acutely aware of how much more I could have achieved had I not been for so long sidetracked by the hypnotic delusions put upon me by Maharaji's world. * I feel that because I married an ashram premie as soon as the ashram's were closed in '82 that in a sense we created our own ashram life of devotion and loving MJ not each other. I look forward to the day where the fallout will be over. * 'So all ashram residents, and it's working out that most of the community for the same reasons, has to ask for money from family and friends. So please, I would very much appreciate it if you can send me whatever you can. Well I've written a fairly long letter now and the typing's getting really scattered. So much love to you both, X P.S. You should pick up the most recent 'And it is Divine.' It's fantastic. From X (as a keen young premie) * To hell with people like me, X, Y and others who were involved in the ashram/initiator experiment (as Z puts it) which he tried for awhile until it became clear he wouldn't be able to pull it off. He didn't give a shit how people like us might have gotten chewed up in the process. He doesn't even feel the need to address that issue, and hasn't to my knowledge. * The end of the ashrams in the UK, for example, coincided with a change in perspective in many ways both - much had moved on around us from the early 70's. It was uncomfortable even hurtful, but timely and liberating, really, I thought. My main difficulty was and is, to a degree, in not saying goodbye - to the people and the beliefs .... the lack of closure that one of the previous correspondents talked of. I find this discussion helpful and welcome in that respect and am grateful to the others for their comments and views which are helping me, for one, to understand, accept and appreciate those times. * The Crusades etc. may not have occurred,(at least not in the name of Christ )or any other religious leader. Followers of Applewhite read Christ's actually (so-called) spoken words ( not accounts from others.) only. They read these over and over. One could say they were devote Christians in the early years. But one man's power tore people from their families (not unlike ashram premies from theirs) controlled their lives and then led them to their death. They weren't forced. They were free to leave at any time. Their loyalty and devotion was the reason they stayed. They sincerely trusted Do to be the incarnation of a Great teacher and they would have seen Maharaji as a cult leader I'm sure. So where do we draw the line? Families I know of ashram premies still suffer from those lost years. If a group commits suicide is it then ok to call it a cult? If only individuals commit suicide or have nervous breakdowns, then it's not? If harm and suffering occurs for some premies and not for others, then it isn't a cult? * Anyway, in 1981, Mr. Smith was in charge of the western region of the U.S. for GMJ, including all the initiators, ashrams, businesses and communities. In one of his meetings with Guru Maharaj Ji, apparently GMJ was really pisssed off about the ashrams and gave the order to clean up the ashrams. I don't know if Maharaj Ji ever said what that was supposed to entail, and in other regions it happened quite differently, but Mr. Smith, because he believed that whatever came into his head was god talking, decided to use the community I was living in as his first target and went on a rampage that would put the Spanish Inquisition to shame. To him, his orders meant scaring and terrorizing and ashram premies with a lot of psychological abuse, getting ashram premies to rat on each other about who might or might not have a special friend (not allowed), who might be doing terrible things like reading books (not allowed), have a job in the world that he or she was too into (not allowed) having too many possessions (he actually went through the ashram premies' closets and threw away clothes if he thought somebody had too many), didn't behave correctly (he told one premie who had some psychological problems that he was a robot and had to change while at the same time terrifying him into being more of a robot than he ever was before). He had these interrogation meetings with individuals and groups that were terribly disrespectful and abusive. He gave satsang to the ashrams in which he used fuck and other abusive language that I had never heard in satsang before. It was unbelievable heavy and devoid of anything but fear. It was also clear that there was no correct way to be. Whatever you did made you open to his attack, his actions and statements could be completely contradictory, because, apparently, attacking was his purpose. It was also clear to me and others that David really ENJOYED the pain he was causing. He really ENJOYED abusing people. That was the terrifying part to me. It was abusive because he always held over the premies head that he would throw them out of the ashram, or send them to some remote community if they didn't conform to some idea he had in his head about the way you were supposed to be. Superimpose this on the many ashram satsangs we had attended with GMJ in which he said that moving out of the ashram was the absolutely worst thing you could do and basically that it was more or less required for total dedication, which was also required. I think the premies also mostly believed and had faith in GMJ's hierarchy that the GMJ was in control and would protect them. Also, by and large, these were not spaced out ashram premies. They lived by the schedule, did S,S & M (funny sound to that) every day and did what they were told. Maharaj Ji was absolutely everything to them. Even some of the initiators said Smith needed professional psychiatric help. He also, when confronted, admitted to me that he had one beaten up some girl when he was younger, almost admitting the abusive streak in him. Anyway, I saw some of the people I had lived with for a long time completely change from being fairly open, happy people to being sullen and depressed. A few of them opened up to me somewhat and talked about how terrible they felt, and the terrible fear that they didn't measure up again, blaming themselves for being worthless slugs because obviously this was all part of GMJ's plan. I think it was the feeling of wanting to get out of the concentration camp Mr. Smith was running, while at the same time your devotion to GMJ kept you there. It was a terrible, claustrophobic, imprisoned feeling. And it shook my faith in GMJ to the core. There was absolutely no love in what he did. There was absolutely no human compassion for people as individuals. All he saw was the marching orders from GMJ and his interpretation of them. It smelled of paranoia and fear. And he was basically a big jerk. You also have to also understand that the ashram premies were especially vulnerable to this type of abuse. They were mostly pretty simple types, without a lot going for them, and they literally had NOTHING besides their dedication to GMJ and trying to be more surrendered. So, here comes Mr David Smith with the sensitivity of a Mack Truck to clean up whatever it was they were doing. I don't think I ever saw anything quite like it in DLM, even among the more insane Mahatmas. I think the reaction was so negative to what he did, however, that I don't think he tried it anywhere else on a grand scale. Although I've heard stories about how he attacked individuals. I, at least, made sure what he did was well known outside the region, and I know others confronted him about it. Anyway, about a year later Mr. Smith came back to our fair community and sort of apologized to the ashram residents for what he did, but, when confronted, he used the old premie line that it was what was necessary and all perfect and it needed to happen. So, he basically spoke out of both sides of his mouth. I could never stand the sight of the guy after that. * I also remember something else. David actually carried around a little black book in which he kept notes about the ashram premies. * As has been documented on this site numerous times, I would suggest that the ashram premies, the initiators, and those who did service in places like DECA in building the Boeing 707, suffered the most in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult, probably because they gave up the most, in terms of personal freedom, material possessions, career and educational opportunities, family relationships, and years of their lives (and many, including myself, think those years were both precious and wasted). This does not include psychological damage and, many would argue, spiritual damage, which, while very real, are harder to measure and much more subjective. There seems to be a widespread revisionist belief around among current cult members that people who were part of these institutions did so on a completely voluntary basis and that Guru Maharaj Ji really didn't care whether you lived in the ashram or became an initiator or not. But as those who were there can testify, that is utter bullshit. As an example of how people were coerced into the ashram, take events in 1979 when I was community coordinator in Washington DC. Nearly the entire time I was there the resident initiator was Randy Prouty, and part of the time he was joined by Alan Imbarrato (god, was HE ever an idiot!). Randy continuously reported that it was GMJ's wish that everyone who could do so should fully dedicate by moving into the ashram. He, and I'm sorry to say with my assistance, embarked on a program to harass every available premie in the community to make that commitment. DC was probably an unusual community in the sense that many of the premies were very together, with successful careers in government, business and the professions. [Dr. John Horton, for example was from DC.] The ashram premies were by and large the exact opposite -- a pretty untogether, but dedicated bunch. I think many of the together community premies could not relate to the weirdness of the ashrams. Anyhow, Randy set up meetings with all the premies in the community who weren't married, or who were married but didn't have kids and basically inspired (read, harrassed) them to make the commitment to the ashram. We also held pre-ashram meetings for these people as well. Randy related over and over things GMJ had said to him about the importance of total surrender through the ashram. As another incentive, anyone who began going to the pre-ashram meetings were allowed by GMJ to go to the ashram meetings he held at almost every festival. And we know the kinds of stuff GMJ said, now don't we? The pressure on these people was very intense and Randy said it was coming directly from GMJ. Many of those people did move into the ashram and many of them ended up giving up their marriages and careers and going to Miami to work on the plane, into national headquarters and a number stayed in the community. I know several who feel pretty ripped off by that experience, and I must say I don't feel so great that I might have contributed to their problems. I know the ashrams only lasted about 5 years after that, but I just want the record to be clear about how much Maharaj Ji was into the ashrams being there, how much people were harassed into moving in to them by GMJ's henchmen, at his direction, and that to premies who really wanted to surrender in the way GMJ asked, there really was no choice when it came to that commitment. It is also important to remember how much people gave up to be there. Some people may say it was a great experience, but many people feel they were really ripped off. I would just like to say again, that unlike what Mili says,it wasn't just some choice people made to be there, there really was coercion both to move in and to stay there. It is also infuriating to me, as I have also said before, that after the premie moved into the ashram, like most other premies, Maharaj Ji had virtually no interest in them, apparently didn't give a shit what happened to them, and then one day just ended the ashrams entirely, apparently without explanation, after people had given years of their lives to be there. * Some people who received knowledge in the 70s were apparently asked to fill out a form listing their financial assets, and some weren't. Who here was and wasn't solicited thusly? - X (Journalist foy The New Yorker) X, I think those forms were definitely in the 70s. I filled one out and I think most of the ashram residents were asked to do so, but I don't know how extensive it was. When I was working at national headquarters I saw the files of completed forms. I recall the form asked not only about your assets, but whether you expected an inheritance and some stuff about your parents' assets. I recall filling out the form and describing my father's net worth. I don't think those questionnaires were given to just anyone who received knowledge...I think they were only given to the ashram residents, and I don't know how many of them actually got them. I filled out mine when I was in Miami, and that was 1979-1980 or so. By that time, I am not aware that anything was actually done with them. At that time, the focus was on immediate cash, mostly for plane project, rather than money coming in from inheritance down the road. In the early years, DLM got tax exempt status as a religion such that people who donated could deduct it from their taxes. [In fact, in relation to some of the jobs I had while living in the ashram, I recall we were instructed to fill out our withholding (W-4) forms to have NOTHING withheld for federal income taxes, because we were considered monastics with no income. When I moved out of the ashram briefly in 1976, I had to actually had to pay taxes for a period of time while I was in the ashram and after the tax exempt status was lost.] Around 1976 or 77, the IRS eliminated the tax exempt status of DLM. Of course, donations to GMJ directly were never tax deductible. Premies were also encouraged to send money directly to Guru Maharaj Ji. There was a p.o. box in Malibu to send the money to. Since there was no longer any tax advantage to contribute to DLM and since a lot of the premies sort of disliked DLM anyway, and were being told to devote entirely to GMJ, I suspect more and more money went directly to GMJ. I know that was the case with me. When I was ashram housefather and handled the finances, we made the 10% donations to DLM, but we sent more money directly to the GMJ post office box. The rest of the money went to basic food/living and going to festivals, which was a MAJOR expense and often put us heavily in debt. The heavy debt of the ashrams was sort of an ongoing joke in DLM. DLM was also usually short of funds. * At least after 1976, if you had a debt you were NOT allowed to move into the ashram -- Just ask David Smith if you don't believe me. You HAD to be at least at break-even. It's true that there was an attempt to keep DLM and Maharaj Ji finances separate, but it's not true that that happened. For example, in fundraising for the plane, millions of dollars of it went through DLM, illegally and we are talking 1980 and not 1971. The main reason DLM was abolished was because the IRS was hot on GMJ's tail. * Just like a lot of seminaries, the brothers ashrams were full of repressed gay men. I won't go into the details, but it is sad that a number of them, when the ashrams closed, were really unprepared to deal with negotiating gay safe-sex life in the era of AIDs and a couple of them I had lived with died from AIDS within a couple of years after the ashrams were closed. * One time right after a festival, where there was darshan, I walked into the satsang hall and saw the community coordinator getting a blow job from one of the ashram sisters. And do you know what? That sister got sent away to a remote reform-school ashram (San Antonio) because she was confused whereas the supposedly-celibate community coordinator$stayed right where was. * I remember getting the letter after the guy shot up the girls in the Tallahassee ashram (no more inner agya!). And I remember the one after Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji split (no more holy family agya!) * I saw how other premies in the ashram were being abused by some of the people Guru Maharaj Ji had put in charge of them and that made me doubt that GMJ was really protecting his premies as I believed he was. It seems I could see their suffering, at least to some extent, even while I was at the same time unable to see my own. * My husband was carried out of the ashram physically in the 70's because he burnt out so badly. He went to a non premie's farm for a few weeks to recover. He discovered life was empty without the realm of knowledge and the master. He rationalized all the abuse he experienced and witnessed as having nothing to do with MJ, and went back to live in the ashram until it closed in '82. When faced with Mishler's interview, he remarked to it as only rumour. When confronted with the possibility of who he once called,' Lord of the Universe' being drunk, he replied it only made it more real for him...Maharaji's humanity. * At one of those huge, huge, ashrams, with no furniture that I lived in Anne Johnston also hosted an event. This was a formal dinner and the ashram brothers were the waiters. We wore white shirts and ties and crisp white aprons that the ashram sisters had ironed. We served cheese pie (glorified macaroni and cheese), salad and herbal tea, and healthy cookies that tasted like hockey pucks for desert. A premie sister sang a sweet devotional song. Then we had introductory satsang for our parents and co-workers. Even introductory satsang back then mentioned, in front of a big altar with GMJ's huge (2'x3') picture on it framed in gold, that he was the perfect master of our time and that he was the equivalent of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. We said this with big smiles on our faces. Stupid? yes. Condescending? yes. But it made us feel like we could bend the rules and sit in chairs and act cordial and not treat our parents like the evil attachments we had all been taught they were. * Do any of you premies remember the private satsang that he gave to ashram premies at a program held in Kissamee florida where he clearly said (I created you!), it seemed like the sermon on the mount that day! * Yeah I was there. No I don't remember it verbatim. I just recall that he made it far too clear that there was no turning back in Maharaji's world. Leaving the ashram was particularly treacherous particularly treacherous. There was nothing else 'out there' for us but maya. Besides, we shouldn't feel that bad, soon the whole world would be an ashram (i.e. they'd all be suffering alongside us). The 'turn you all blue and make you float' bit was from the satsang he gave from the main stage. That's when he threatened to have Raja Ji and his WPC tour the future festival site ( the permanent one we'd all live on, but NOT in Guyana) and rassal up stragglers who were 'delaying attending satsang.' That was the festival everyone started splitting and we had do to a major talk-down at the gate to keep them there. After all, what were we going to do with all the yogurt? * The ashram satsang at Kissimmee. I actually remember attending two of them. But the one you are referring to was the same one where he not only said he created us, but he also said we didn't have the right to even look at him, that moving out of the ashram was the worst thing you could do; he said it was moving into a cesspool, and that he was going to take us out of the world entirely by buying land in Florida where we would all live. Fortunately for all of us, that didn't happen, hence we did not end up like Jonestown. * I thought you were my Lord. I gave up University so I could spend time at the palace of peace in London to get knowledge, and played the famous Mahatma game of come to coventry or go to leicester. I was a sad and naiive soul . I believed you. I told my fiance that once I got knowledge I'd have to move into an ashram and effectively ended that relationship. I was broke and followed you around the world.. I made a place in my heart for you . * That reminds me, do you recall at one point that GMJ changed the rules for formal meditation and said we should begin meditating TWO hours in the morning and TWO hours in the evening instead of just one hour each time, in addition to trying to meditate the other 20 hours of the day? That was also the period when we were always doing all-night meditations. In the ashrams, we used to do all-day Sunday meditations all the time. Christ, talk about turning meditation into drudgery. What was THAT about, and why did GMJ get on that kick? Did he have any idea what he was doing? According to Mishler, he never did meditation himself, so he probably didn't know what he was talking about anyway. * When I was in Maharaji s ashram I was one of the few people there who didn't t have aspirations or ambitions to be an instructor. I thought that if I was really sincere then such Service would automatically manifest at the right time. I was subsequently more and more surprised to notice that, without any doubt whatsoever, the effective principle to escape the drudgery of ashram life and to be elevated into the blessed ranks of Instructors, seemed to be quite the opposite. ie. Those who most loudly advertised their desire to serve MJ and put themselves forward the most brazenly were the ones who caught the attention of MJ. Grace was an imaginary factor and my ideas of being known to MJ whilst remaining silent and humbly insignificant only served to increase the speed at which I sunk into the darkest and most dismal and isolated depths of obscurity and anonymity .Thus, year in and year out, I rotted away in various Ashrams which Maharaji neither knew of or gave two hoots about. * What if M had kept his trip together a bit better and the dream hadn't died so quickly? What if we still believed in M and did so til the end? What if the ashrams hadn't fallen apart and we got old there? What if you died thinking that M was God? Dedicated your whole life, gave up the world -- so, so literally -- for him? Would it matter? I guess what I'm asking is if it mattered that it was all fake, so long as you were 'happy'? Interesting question, don't you think? Are there such things as 'meaningful' lives in North Korea? * If you ignored most of what Maharaj Ji said over the years, if you didn't try to keep from questioning him and his teachings and instead followed your own better judgment, if you didn't try to surrender your life to him as he demanded, and if you just took what you felt like taking and ignored the rest, well, if you did that, then the Maharaj Ji cult probably didn't cost you very much. But I also have a hard time seeing how you could have been his devotee is you just ignored what he was asking of you. I also have no doubt that he doesn't say most of that stuff anymore because he can't get away with it. But what was all that surrender ashram don't doubt stuff about them, Hmmm? Was it just a phase he was going through and we were just too stupid to see it as just that? I also think it's offensive to people who sincerely tried to follow Maharaj Ji when current premies say we were just too stupid in listening to and believing what GMJ told us to do, and that we were defective in not, as you say, exercising [our] powers of diligence and questioning and that we abdicated our common sense. That's both offensive and condescending, and, if you ask me, evidence that perhaps someone besides some ex-premies are a little deficient in the common sense area. * Guru Maharaj Ji screwed up big time when he demanded total commitment and surrender (X please do not conveniently forget surrender) which he demanded both in and outside of his ashram satsangs, such that only some of his followers made it through. Either it was a BIG mistake, or he was intentionally setting up some kind of spiritual obstacle course of his own making. God, who needs that? The spiritual path is hard enough without your own master and guide either screwing up or intentionally making it so large numbers of his followers will split and feel highly ripped off when he changes his tune entirely and dismisses both his own teachings of surrender and devotion, and with it the personal experiences and efforts of a large number of his devotees to do what he told them to do. If it was a mistake (and it certainly was in hindsight), why don't you and he just admit it? It certainly would clear the air for a lot of people including, I would imagine, people who continue to consider themselves his devotees but still wonder about that as well. You see, X, the fact that he doesn't demand total commitment and surrender anymore is feeble solace and a tacit admission of a big booboo that had profound effects on the lives of many people. He really should take at least SOME responsibility, shouldn't he? * Yes, I remember when Guru Maharaj Ji used to say that receiving knowledge would not change your religion. (laugh) He then proceeded to denigrate religions as the empty traditions of dead perfect masters. Can you imagine the ashram premie after arti and meditation heading off to the local catholic church for mass? * In 1974, after three years in the ashram, I was transferred to the Boston ashram.I believe David Smith was the 'general secretary' at the time. I couldn't believe how rigid and uptight he was, and as a result, everyone else. It was like a prison. Perhaps I should be grateful, it motivated me to move out. * I have been thinking about exactly what my gripe is. It is not that MJ drinks , smokes, or copulates with Yaks. That is not my problem. It is not that he should be run out of town for evading tax or having 500 aeroplanes. It is not, essentially, his behaviour. My gripe is that by doing what he said and following him extremely carefully, I was led into particularly unpleasant circumstances and influences. Namely the Ashram. It really was for me the most insufferably boring, heartless and disappointing way to have 'mis-spent' my youth; and my loyalty to him, which was unquestionable, was not reciprocated or appreciated by him at all,as far as I know. I lost out. Even my meditation suffered in the ashram - We were so pushed to raise money etc. that I lived a pleasureless existence as, effectively, an unpaid servant. My trust in him then started to gradually dwindle until now I find myself quite shocked that he feels no human sympathy or understanding of my plight. Obviously I am not alone in that sadness and anger. Those years I dedicated to him are gone forever. What I am trying to say is that I feel that I made a huge sacrifice, personally, to follow Maharaji and that that was in vain and was misguided.While those around him now naughtily sip their ciders at his parties and feel blessed to be a part of his ongoing celebrations, I am elsewhere. I am not going to see him because his influence certainly suppressed my intelligence, and my growth. I was in danger of becoming a middle-aged fake. By daring to question the unquestionable, by daring to seek the truth again with a brave heart, I am finally moving on. Will he move on too? If you are there Maharaji, spare a kind thought for us, who certainly have been your real followers. That is why we speak out here..hoping indeed that you will hear of our pain and will maybe have some respect for our experiences and concern for the effect that you have had on us. Oh yes. We are still here. We will not go away.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 20:58:47 (EST)
Poster: don't
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: fergit (Re: History Question)
Message:
Hello x-man, Don't fergit, He had virtually total control over the ashrams. The local co-ordinators had to get permission to do just about anything. m would be furious and point fingers -yes- but that was just his management style and NO ONE almost ever got a word of approval. HE had the authority at that time. After 1974 and the mom and mahatmas were gone, he was VERY involved with constant meetings and giving-excuse me- dictating instructions. He would micromanage the festivals and the stage construction and in the nineties he extended his reach to the point that ALL decisions, even usher and little spontanious security decisions got right to him. He was and is a total control freak and thats just the facts. By the Rome Arise event, everybody was commenting how complete his control was. He himself disbanded the ashrams. I heard that 60 minutes was poking around and the ashrams were closing. Satangs came to a complete halt, One indian in north miami had nightly satsang and quite good stuff, and all the gopi's went there. m heard about it and had someone come and shut it down. There WAS no pam. We were entrusted with the lord on earth, and all the premies took it seriously. At least for as long as they could. No one wanted to go off on thier own mission, we were being led by a very demanding lord on earth with a mission, and we were his to order around. Which he did. He was not the least bit wishy-washy. He had moments of fear (which I saw) but his usual way was of total control and domination. Still.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 21:29:32 (EST)
Poster: what a
Email: bb
To: ASHRAM
Subject: post (Re: History Question)
Message:
Wow. good work. thank you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 21:42:50 (EST)
Poster: tick tick
Email: **
To: what a
Subject: tick (Re: History Question)
Message:
How dare brian mc dermott say he was confused back then. And cheerfully exhort the followers of today. I will submit a brian mc dermott section for the web pages. If our brian wants it. And a david smith one also. In fact, why don't we do a page on all the remaining apologists and thier past words and deeds. Let them come and look to see themselves mentioned here. We need a forum like this only PRIVATE. where things can be discussed.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:19:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Shri Anonymous
Subject: We are still here (Re: History Question)
Message:
Thanks for your post. We won't forget.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:27:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: PETKAT@MAIL.TRIB.NET
To: big fang
Subject: Re: Ashram Closure (Re: History Question)
Message:
The reason we had so much dental work was that the diet was almost exclusively carbohydrates. There was no explanation given for the closure of the ashrams and many of the devotee types really struggled over the change, thinking it was some test or whatever. Just to set the record straight, I had to get just as much (if not more) dental work done after 10 years of college - $1400 worth plus more later (I did get a B.S. and an M.S. too, though, so maybe you should include that in the equation.) Do you know exactly when they closed the ashrams? And does anyone know how much warning was given to the ashram residents? Joe said that they had to start paying "rent" to the ashram - did this happen all over the country?
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 23:29:50 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: what a
Subject: Re: post (Re: History Question)
Message:
Wow. good work. thank you. When I was a Premie, I felt a lot of guilt because I was never able to fully surrender and was unwilling to enter the ashram like a REAL Premie. When I read these stories, I feel so much sympathy for those who suffered in the ashrams. These posts are just amazing; I have trouble believing that anyone could defend those actions or Maharaji's part in this. This was evil, and then to toss everyone out on the street is even more evil. I am so glad that I was unable to surrender, and I am so sorry to read of the hell you all went through. Regards, Michael
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 00:10:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: tick tick
Subject: Re: tick (Re: History Question)
Message:
How dare brian mc dermott say he was confused back then. And cheerfully exhort the followers of today. I will submit a brian mc dermott section for the web pages. If our brian wants it. And a david smith one also. In fact, why don't we do a page on all the remaining apologists and thier past words and deeds. Let them come and look to see themselves mentioned here. We need a forum like this only PRIVATE. where things can be discussed. Many people have related incidents in the Forum regarding these two (and other) premies. I never met Brian McDermott or David Smith, so I know that I'm not in a position to justify any abuses that happened as a result of these or other people being in positions of power within DLM/EV. But keep in mind that any abuses committed by premies who thought that they were acting on the Lord's agya are possibly abuses that we could have committed ourselves if we had been as "blessed" as they were with Maharaji's personal favor. While MJ passed through most of our lives and left a huge upsetting wake, for the most part we passed through his without making a ripple. I know how I felt when he didn't even look at me after I had traveled so far to see him. "Maybe next time he'll stop pretending he doesn't see me. Maybe I'll be worthy then... Maybe..." The Forum has as many axes to grind as there are people sharing their viewpoints here. The site itself only has one.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 12:13:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.co.
To: big
Subject: Re: fang (Re: History Question)
Message:
The reason we had so much dental work was that the diet was almost exclusively carbohydrates. There was no explanation given for the closure of the ashrams and many of the devotee types really struggled over the change, thinking it was some test or whatever. Regarding dental work, I think for me, the cause of my teeth distress was actually eating a lot of dried fruit, which I ate a lot of while a premie. My dentist told me that raisins are about the worst think you can eat when it comes to teeth, because they not only contain lots of decay-causing sugar, but they are also really sticky and hence the sugar gets stuck to your teeth. He said eating dried fruit is probably worse than Snickers Bars when it comes to your teeth. I think the outrage about ashram premies not getting their medical and dental needs taken care of was that there WAS the money available to take care of those things, the problem was it was going to Maharaji and paying to go to programs, and the premies felt they should ALWAYS sacrifice their own needs and give Maharaji what he wanted, because we were trying to be 100% surrendered and devoted to him, and because his "grace" would take care of us in the end. The problem was, a lot of premies weren't even getting dental checkups or cleanings, let alone taking care of major dental problems. I think this mostly applied to the ashram premies in the provinces, however. Premies at IHQ and the initiators, seemed to by and large get those needs taken care of. BTW -- my dentist tells me I now have excellent teeth. I floss like crazy and I have one of those great Braun electric toothbrushes. I think I'm diligent about it because of the dental problems I had while a premie that I don't want to repeat.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 29, 1998 at 19:39:59 (EST)
Poster: ofgh56r
Email: **
To: Brian
Subject: Re: tick (Re: History Question)
Message:
gotcha.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 03:48:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Ok, I’ll try to recall what my feeling was at that time. First I want to recall what my position was in DLM (late 70s and 1980): I was doing full time service in the national office, and also ashram secretary/coordinator. I had applied for being an instructor and felt very frustrated not being called. I thought the new western instructors were a bit crazy, like the old Indian ones. Simply my own frustration maybe. The late 70s had been quite frustrating for me, kind of general feeling, even though I had a good time myself thanks to my nice experience of meditation. I didn’t like all this organization business I was involved in, I didn’t like what the other organizers were doing, specially in the way they would deal with other ashram premies. Maybe I was a lot paranoid about what would happen to me, like everybody was I guess at that time. I didn’t like the hierarchical system. Many people in organization were in power trip (like they are today), very likely to secure themselves. Kind of trip where you try to be the best to please GMJ where he doesn’t care for you at all. Endless game. You finally quit when you’re tired of this, if you don’t freak out before. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. (I now understand that the whole thing is wrong, there is no way to feel good when you’re involved in such a pile of crap. Everybody, all the people involved feel that same frustration, meaning lots of power fights, etc, no way out except LEAVING this mess.) Then that business of ashrams closing: like he does today, m kept mistreating us during these meetings, in a very loving way. Kind of love hate relationship. I think that’s the time I started enjoying that type of relationship. That’s also why I recently left the whole thing: I was enjoying that type of game with my friends, which led to a lot of problems. JW explained quite well how things happened, initiators and some premies were having meetings and personal interviews with everybody. My material situation wasn’t too bad: I first found a part time job, still doing part time service. Then I got very sick for a while, then I found a new girlfriend and left the ashram without guilt feelings because it was m’s wish to close the ashrams. I remember some guys had a hard time finding a job and housing ‘outside’. Many stayed together in various kind of premie houses for a while. Kind of ashram life without ashram. Some did last for years. Maybe the main idea that was conveyed at that time is that it was a time of change like some already happened in the past, that we had to trust maharaji, that he wasn’t abandoning us, that kind of BS satsang. I think it’s quite difficult to understand to people who haven’t been involved in this, like it is very likely for people who don’t have knowledge or ‘good premies’ to relate to what we are talking about in these forum threads! We are totally IN OUR MIND guys! And happy to be back there .......
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 14:01:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Ok, I’ll try to recall what my feeling was at that time. First I want to recall what my position was in DLM (late 70s and 1980): I was doing full time service in the national office, and also ashram secretary/coordinator. I had applied for being an instructor and felt very frustrated not being called. I thought the new western instructors were a bit crazy, like the old Indian ones. Simply my own frustration maybe. The late 70s had been quite frustrating for me, kind of general feeling, even though I had a good time myself thanks to my nice experience of meditation. I didn’t like all this organization business I was involved in, I didn’t like what the other organizers were doing, specially in the way they would deal with other ashram premies. Maybe I was a lot paranoid about what would happen to me, like everybody was I guess at that time. I didn’t like the hierarchical system. Many people in organization were in power trip (like they are today), very likely to secure themselves. Kind of trip where you try to be the best to please GMJ where he doesn’t care for you at all. Endless game. You finally quit when you’re tired of this, if you don’t freak out before. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. (I now understand that the whole thing is wrong, there is no way to feel good when you’re involved in such a pile of crap. Everybody, all the people involved feel that same frustration, meaning lots of power fights, etc, no way out except LEAVING this mess.) Then that business of ashrams closing: like he does today, m kept mistreating us during these meetings, in a very loving way. Kind of love hate relationship. I think that’s the time I started enjoying that type of relationship. That’s also why I recently left the whole thing: I was enjoying that type of game with my friends, which led to a lot of problems. JW explained quite well how things happened, initiators and some premies were having meetings and personal interviews with everybody. My material situation wasn’t too bad: I first found a part time job, still doing part time service. Then I got very sick for a while, then I found a new girlfriend and left the ashram without guilt feelings because it was m’s wish to close the ashrams. I remember some guys had a hard time finding a job and housing ‘outside’. Many stayed together in various kind of premie houses for a while. Kind of ashram life without ashram. Some did last for years. Maybe the main idea that was conveyed at that time is that it was a time of change like some already happened in the past, that we had to trust maharaji, that he wasn’t abandoning us, that kind of BS satsang. I think it’s quite difficult to understand to people who haven’t been involved in this, like it is very likely for people who don’t have knowledge or ‘good premies’ to relate to what we are talking about in these forum threads! We are totally IN OUR MIND guys! And happy to be back there ....... But, Mr. Ex, do you recall what MAHARAJI said about why he was closing the ashrams? Did he meet with the ashram residents to explain to them what he was doing? [Which would seem only right since he had been meeting with the ashram residents for years lambasting even the thought of not living in the ashram.] Or did he do the cowardly, chickenshit thing he usually did, which was to take no responsibility whatsoever, and duck any confrontation or acknowledgment that he might have screwed up and left it to the initiators/coordinators to convey what was going on and why?
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Date: Fri, Jan 30, 1998 at 21:52:28 (EST)
Poster: well said
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: x-man (Re: History Question)
Message:
nobody conveyed anything because there was nothing conveyed from m except that -here is pretty much an exact quote- 'I could have kept on like this forever but to make it more relatable...' and he said that devotion is not going to be available for all the new people and that he is still the lord of course but for the sake of spreading the knowledge he is going to act less godlike. that was the gist. I wonder how much I have in print or tape of those comments. I am sure I have some of them.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 05:54:43 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Yes I agree with you totally. What I mean to say is at that time I took m's chickenshit explanations as something great. I was totally indulged in that love hate relationship. I've now realized he was (and he is still) deluding me and everybody else with his tricks. I feel very sorry for myself, and for all the people to whom I faithfully conveyed m's words. I was not some kind of nazi as some obviously were, but I realize that I very likely harmed many people by my stupid behaviour. What can I do now?
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:24:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: History Question
Message:
Yes I agree with you totally. What I mean to say is at that time I took m's chickenshit explanations as something great. I was totally indulged in that love hate relationship. I've now realized he was (and he is still) deluding me and everybody else with his tricks. I feel very sorry for myself, and for all the people to whom I faithfully conveyed m's words. I was not some kind of nazi as some obviously were, but I realize that I very likely harmed many people by my stupid behaviour. What can I do now? First, forgive yourself. Then, if there is anything that you can do to help a person who you hurt back then (without hurting them further), you can do that. I know that the work you have done on the ex-premie web site is helping a lot of people. Katie P.S. I sent you an e-mail but it came back. Could you please send me your correct address? Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 11:31:56 (EST)
Poster: innocent
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: x-man (Re: History Question)
Message:
you are an innocent.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 16:20:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Joke
Message:
A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco's Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs. "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it." "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat." The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him. Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into San Francisco Bay with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the sea, where they drown. Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop. "Ah, so you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner. "No," says the tourist, "but I was wondering if you have any bronze lawyers!"
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 01:42:33 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Joke
Message:
Actually, Mili, I did get a laugh from this. Now if I just knew the story behind the sculpture... I really wanted the guy to fork over the money so I could find out.
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 19:27:06 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Changed Stuff
Message:
Okay, I think I did this right. I'll be tracking down bizarre broken links in the next few days, so if you find any don't tell me and ruin the surprise for me. Muchas Gracias to The Lovely Katie for her MEGA-Help on some of these site pages, as well as her level-headedness to keep me in line when I wandered a bit wide. And thanks to the person who provided the logo. I have added some Journeys entries that had been piling up in my mailbox, as well as some letters to MJ from Harlan's refugees. Probably some other stuff that I can't think of right now. Click and explore. This is far from final, but I had to get what I did have online in order to see where to go from here.
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 19:56:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Changed Stuff
Message:
Excellent job, Brian. I think the tone of the new site is just about perfect, befitting the discussion of the former and/or current, perfect master.
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 20:38:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Changed Stuff
Message:
Okay, I think I did this right. I'll be tracking down bizarre broken links in the next few days, so if you find any don't tell me and ruin the surprise for me. Muchas Gracias to The Lovely Katie for her MEGA-Help on some of these site pages, as well as her level-headedness to keep me in line when I wandered a bit wide. And thanks to the person who provided the logo. I have added some Journeys entries that had been piling up in my mailbox, as well as some letters to MJ from Harlan's refugees. Probably some other stuff that I can't think of right now. Click and explore. This is far from final, but I had to get what I did have online in order to see where to go from here. De nada, Brian, although I don't know about the level-headedness... BTW, for everyone else, I'd just like to compliment Brian, for all the excellent work he's done on the site in a short time. Now can we get around to buying him that little old custom corporate jet that he needs to keep doing a good job?
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 21:51:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Changed Stuff
Message:
BTW, for everyone else, I'd just like to compliment Brian, for all the excellent work he's done on the site in a short time. Now can we get around to buying him that little old custom corporate jet that he needs to keep doing a good job? Of course I haven't found any pages yet that don't have broken links on them, so I guess I'll be uploading the entire site all over again. I'll take the plane, tho...
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 09:14:25 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Changed Stuff
Message:
I especially like the title "Ex-Premie" instead of that picture of M as Krishna from 20 years ago. Though maybe we should call ourselves the "Enlightened Premies"? Or maybe just "Lightened Premies", since we have been freed from that heavy load. Or "Light Premies", "Fat free premies". oops...sorry, I introduced that nasty subject again. I didn't mean anything by it, honest! And of course "ex" is such a "negative" word. Here we are spreading negativity throughout cyberspace by broadcasting that word, tsk tsk.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:06:05 (EST)
Poster: nice
Email: **
To: Katie
Subject: work (Re: Changed Stuff)
Message:
Great work guys. Do you still have any of davids pages on the hard disk? Could you leave at least one page of davids work on the site? He must have that gay gene because his interior decorator skills are good. I hope we have one of his designed pages somewhere on the site, you can even mention that this page was contributed by david, just alter whatever links on that page that you must. I look at the pages of the website as different rooms. Many web sites treat the website as one room. You know, same wallpaper and style in the room. Maybe as we have more time we can add more and more visual variety. I'm not at all trying to say anything but the that site looks great.
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 17:47:17 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Changed Stuff
Message:
Very Nice; I really like the new look! Well done, good and faithful servants!
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 18:41:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: nice
Subject: Re: work (Re: Changed Stuff)
Message:
Great work guys. Do you still have any of davids pages on the hard disk? Could you leave at least one page of davids work on the site? He must have that gay gene because his interior decorator skills are good. I hope we have one of his designed pages somewhere on the site, you can even mention that this page was contributed by david, just alter whatever links on that page that you must. I look at the pages of the website as different rooms. Many web sites treat the website as one room. You know, same wallpaper and style in the room. Maybe as we have more time we can add more and more visual variety. I'm not at all trying to say anything but the that site looks great. Bill, since Brian did 95% of the work (and 99% of the page design), and because he is The WebMaster, I'll let him answer your question. My aesthetic opinion is that a web site looks better if the pages are all designed by the same person - even if they have different backgrounds, typefaces, etc. BTW, Brian has a neat page called Forum Help that teaches some basic HTML codes like bold and italics and (the big one) making links. The Krishna picture is still accessible from there if you still want to look at it. Regards from K
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Date: Tues, Jan 27, 1998 at 19:34:52 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: Re: work (Re: Changed Stuff)
Message:
The site now has (dare I say) a more BBC style than Channel 4. Well done Brian and Katie..much less confrontational and a pleasant evolution from the last incarnation. Of course David too deserves due credit. His considerable efforts were indispensibly instrumental in the foundation of this website and will not be forgotten.
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Date: Wed, Jan 28, 1998 at 12:06:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: work (Re: Changed Stuff)
Message:
The site now has (dare I say) a more BBC style than Channel 4.I think an appropriate translation for those of us in the States is that the site is now more in the style of PBS than the Fox Network. I also agree that David should also be given lots of credit for all the fine work he did as well. JW
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 14:49:16 (EST)
Poster: moon man
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: we are good at being sheep
Message:
the recent fall of the korean won will put a crimp in moon mans style.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:33:18 (EST)
Poster: Maurizio Salamone
Email: nagual@tvol.it
To: Everyone
Subject: The orher face of the coin
Message:
I wish you the best… May bliss and compassion be always with you. This is my story: I was 14 when I started searching for the unknown. I was an adolescent with all the problems of that age and I made a lot of confusion about the source of my infelicity. Like every other boy of that age I wanted to have a girl, many friends, a little money for a new guitar. But I was sure that there was something more. I started to practice yoga with the help of a book until I was 18. One day, after many moments of tremendous sadness, I asked strongly to meet a person that could guide me. I needed more that some piece of advice. I needed a master. I started searching the yoga guru that I will never meet. In fact after only one day of wandering I heard about Maharaji and I started attending satsang. At that time (1985) there was a place where premies could speak about their own experience. Waiting to receive knowledge I continued my yoga practice but with strange results. An orange light appeared in front of my eyes during asanas (positions) with kumbaka (breath retention) and a sense of easiness was always with me. After four months of apprenticeship I received knowledge and I started practicing the four techniques. I was instructed to meditation by an instructor after a short meeting. He asked to me if I wanted to go on or retry and "who is maharaji for you". I answered that I wanted to know how to meditate and that for me maharaji was the person that could let me now how. During these 13 years I never stopped meditating (not every day). I attended relatively few events: once in India, once in Europe, 3 or 4 time in Italy. I never assumed drugs for my spiritual path. I never felt the need to leave my family (I' m married) and live in a ashram or go to the desert. I work as a sales representative and maharaji never asked me (directly or indirectly) to leave my job and become an homeless. I practiced other meditation's techniques and I'm enormously curious about other paths. I confront myself daily with other persons, ideas, practices, philosophical or religious creeds. Now I would like to share with you some of my ideas and feeling about this story. The Master There are people who need nobody and nothing to be happy because they have surrendered to a life of pain and darkness. There are others who need nothing either and they walk alone all the path. Some other people feel that they could need any help at one moment of her/his life. With these people, who are walking your own path or a similar one, you can share the gift you received. A master is a person who give you an hand in your path toward the heart. She/he never tell you what is right or wrong but encourages your free consciousness. She/he will never ask you nothing except "enjoy this life and its gifts". Devotion Here we are! For us western people devotion is a tricky thing!!!! It as to do with annihilation of ego and most of people exchange ego with person. Devotees of accepted religious cult are called "mad of God", made saints or burnt upon a fire. Devotees of strange cults are considered unable to decide or to will and treated as being plagiarized. There is a path of devotion (bakty marga) and a student can decide to make of devotion the focus and the centre of his life. This path more then others requires retirement from the everyday world and can be followed only by monks or sanyasyn. But devotion is present in every kind of cult or religion and in everyday life. I can feel devotion toward my wife or father. Devotion toward the master is a different one and as to do with a particular relationship based on gift and gratitude, faith and enjoying. I can feel to make some service for my master and this thing is well accepted in the eastern country, less in western. The reason is the false democracy us western know. It teaches us that we are all the same, but this is not true. There are not person better or worse than others, but as persons we are all different. We are all equals as human beings. So if I feel gratitude and devotion toward my master I can (not must) make some service for him. I can also decide to help him in his mission either. Everybody is free to decide on his life but he/she must assume responsibility for the assumed choices. This is particularly important when our choices are going to hardly influence other person's life. When I met premies for the first time I noticed a strange reverence toward the master and not only. Instructors also were worshipped and people tried, if possible, to spend much time with them. In India I noticed the same thing with mahatmas, but India is another world with a different culture. Suddenly (1987-90) there were no more instructors but only maharaji could teach techniques. In my life devotion is gratitude and trust, but I admit that this is a tricky thing and weak people could use this to feel relieved from his/her responsibilities. I think also that devotion alone could be enough to bring samadhi or ecstasy. It is possible that in very special beings it could give complete realization. Many problems with cults come with service, devotion, masters. We must accept that every living being on earth has a game to play. Sometimes you can grow also with an experience that seems to be terrible. Knowledge There are many, many techniques to meditate. It is not important which one you choose. Do meditate if you feel that you are doing the right thing, stop if you feel uneasy. Life is incredible in its diversity. You can meditate with visualization; You can meditate with mantras; You can meditate with prayers; You can meditate with mandalas or yantras; You can meditate whirling like derwishes; You can meditate dancing; You can meditate with a set of static or dynamic body positions; You can meditate with the presence itself; You can even use all these techniques and mix them up! A good master teaches you one or more techniques but he also says: "try elsewhere if you want. I will never blame you for this, and the door of my house will be always open for you". The four ones I received from maharaji are great! I know that I received them from maharaji but they do not belong to him. Knowledge do not belongs to anybody. Meditation is a gift for the benefit of human beings and couldn't be patented or sold. Secrecy is stupid such as trying to sell it. Techniques are ready to find whenever a student ask for them. I said that to meditate is great, because sometimes it can boost you out of human's boundaries. When you come back you will never be the same. Unfortunately it is true that who meditate became more and more different from other people, but not better or worse, simply different. Experience There is an crucial difference between what you see, hear, taste during meditation and the experience of meditation. You can also see black, hear silence, taste nothing and yet your life be changed. If you don't sleep (don't meditate when too tired) your mind will immediately try to run away and you will try to focus your concentration. But you'll will not obtain nothing if your heart desires something else. If your body, mind and souls are focused on money, do realize it and don't blame meditation for your lack of concentration. No meditation without concentration. No concentration without will. No will without pure desire. I think that the selection of aspirant is done to feel if there is a minimum of that desire. That desire is the fuel to start the engine of meditation. I will write no more about experience here, but I will write personally to everybody if it is made with good will. The student The student is often weak and poor….. Even some so-called masters are weak and poor but they pretend to be a master. Many psychotherapeutics try to heal people's mind and spirit but they are weak and poor themselves. The question is: Can someone help some other person ???? My answer is: yes but if he/she is moved only by compassion and he/she is sure that something greater then himself is doing the job. When the student is weak and poor every kind of misunderstanding take place…… There is no limit to the ability of misunderstanding of a weak and poor student. The poor and weak student can only collect the remaining forces and direct them to the inner consciousness. Then he/she could ask God for grace and bliss. Then he/she will never, never waste the received gift but enjoy in gratitude. Even if the master is a perfect master, a poor and weak student can misunderstand some or the whole teaching. He/she will blame the master for little attention, will blame the techniques that they don't work, others because are selfish. A good student can find a weak and poor master but he will soon go away from him. The signs of a weak and poor master are: 1 he/she'll asks money to teach techniques; 2 he/she'll exert influence over others for personal interest; 3 he/she'll have little or none compassion; 4 he/she'll often tell you what to do and what not to do. If a poor and weak student meet a poor and weak master only the grace of God can change the situation. Satsang Premies are strange persons!!!! I have some friend among them, some friend among other cult-addicted ;-) and eventually among common people. I feel that when you are among positive and joyous people everything is O.K. Everybody could feel down sometimes but there are some who systematically build their own unhappiness. Since I'm working hard for my happiness I try to walk along with good fellows. Among meditating people there are statistically more sensible persons, more people who suffered too much and decided to change. But sensibility is not enough. You need to work hard to increase your consciousness!!!! Only then you will have energy enough to comprehend that: 1. you are the master of your life; 2. you need to assume responsibility for your decisions. EVER! 3. You create most of your problems and unhappiness; 4. If your are dragged by the river you cannot help somebody else; 5. Compassion is the most powerful force of the universes Since then you will not stop to hurt yourself and other people. Premies are not different from other people in this respect. They have the minimal consciousness to understand when to focus inside, and this could be misunderstood and interpreted like selfishness. Satsang mean "in the company of truth". Truth could be in the form of a person, a dream, a music, a poem, a book. Look for the company of the truth and keep the truth in the deep of your heart. I noticed that meditation if more powerful if made together with other people. I don't understand that because meditation appears to me as a personal event. But how little I know…. I ask you to pray for me and for all the people who are engaged in the path of the soul…. May the divine light, sound, presence and nectar be always with you. May the other aspects and manifestation of God be always with you.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 20:03:58 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Maurizio Salamone
Subject: Re: The orher face of the coin
Message:
Fine. Now I don't have to post it here, and I can delete it from my harddrive. We get the most bizarre stuff sent to the site. This one starts out looking like a Journeys entry, and then wanders off to look at the all the pretty flowers.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:26:44 (EST)
Poster: Bob
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji replaced?
Message:
In the 1960's, psychologists began to study meditation, focusing attention on an image or thought with the goal of clearing one's mind and producing an "inner peace". In one of the first experiments, people were simply asked to concentrate on a blue vase. The participants soon reported that the color of the vase became very vivid and the time passed quickly. The people could not be distracted as easily as they normally might. Some people felt themselves merging with the vase. Others reported that their surroundings became unusually beautiful, filled with light and movement. All the meditators found the experience pleasent. After 12 sessions they all felt a strong attachment to the vase and missed it when it was not present during the next session.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:36:54 (EST)
Poster: maurizio
Email: nagual@tvol.it
To: Bob
Subject: Re: Maharaji replaced?
Message:
In the 1960's, psychologists began to study meditation, focusing attention on an image or thought with the goal of clearing one's mind and producing an 'inner peace'. In one of the first experiments, people were simply asked to concentrate on a blue vase. The participants soon reported that the color of the vase became very vivid and the time passed quickly. The people could not be distracted as easily as they normally might. Some people felt themselves merging with the vase. Others reported that their surroundings became unusually beautiful, filled with light and movement. All the meditators found the experience pleasent. After 12 sessions they all felt a strong attachment to the vase and missed it when it was not present during the next session. Meditation is not a game to performe on partys. If people get hurted they must blame themselves and their stupid guides
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 12:24:56 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email: me@heaven
To: Bob
Subject: Guru Vase (Re: Maharaji replaced?)
Message:
In the 1960's, psychologists began to study meditation, focusing attention on an image or thought with the goal of clearing one's mind and producing an 'inner peace'. In one of the first experiments, people were simply asked to concentrate on a blue vase. The participants soon reported that the color of the vase became very vivid and the time passed quickly. The people could not be distracted as easily as they normally might. Some people felt themselves merging with the vase. Others reported that their surroundings became unusually beautiful, filled with light and movement. All the meditators found the experience pleasent. After 12 sessions they all felt a strong attachment to the vase and missed it when it was not present during the next session. So...you need to concentrate on something that will never leave you. Something within.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 12:58:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Rob
Subject: Re: Guru Vase (Re: Maharaji replaced?)
Message:
In the 1960's, psychologists began to study meditation, focusing attention on an image or thought with the goal of clearing one's mind and producing an 'inner peace'. In one of the first experiments, people were simply asked to concentrate on a blue vase. The participants soon reported that the color of the vase became very vivid and the time passed quickly. The people could not be distracted as easily as they normally might. Some people felt themselves merging with the vase. Others reported that their surroundings became unusually beautiful, filled with light and movement. All the meditators found the experience pleasent. After 12 sessions they all felt a strong attachment to the vase and missed it when it was not present during the next session. So...you need to concentrate on something that will never leave you. Something within. I don't know if you guys remember, but I distinctly recall Maharaji saying several times "If you meditate on a candle, you turn into a candle", and things like that. Meaning that you have to be careful what you meditate on. I'm still not sure that using a candle as something to concentrate on in meditation is all that bad, but I do remember M saying that.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 22:51:39 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Guru Vase (Re: Maharaji replaced?)
Message:
Katie said that Maharaji said, "If you meditate on a candle, you turn into a candle." This is just typical of the kind of glib, sweeping statement that he makes although I presume he was being funny. I am most interested in the blue vase meditation results. If people do meditation then they should try to find out just what is happening. Otherwise they could be misled into believing that their experience is due to someone's special grace. We are creatures of habit. If we habitually meditate on something, it will become dear to us. That is why many people go to see Maharaji, to meditate on him and that is why the word technique is like an old friend to me. None of us are right or wrong since we all have our objects of meditation. What works for one may not work for another. Katie, I like a bit of meat on my women so don't try to lose any more weight. I would have liked you as a voluptuous teenager. I missed any replies to my last post because I was off the net for over a week.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:10:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
Are you double posting concerning Katie. If you are, I am really disappointed in you.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 15:56:16 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
Are you double posting concerning Katie. If you are, I am really disappointed in you. Hello JW. If by 'double posting' you mean sending the same message twice, then yes I did, but only by accident. The first one took so long to come through, I thought perhaps I hadn't actually sent it (I'd drunk a couple of beers), then as soon as I resent it the first one appeared, and I felt pretty stupid. I could have posted again to say 'oops - sorry!' but three posts in a row not saying very much might have looked like an attempt to hog the forum. To make matters worse I then referred to Daya as 'Ayar' (kind of mixing up Amer with Daya) in a reply to Katie, and then posted a correction. So, I'm sorry about that Katie, and hope, JW, I'm not too much of a disappointment to you. Believe me, I'm a bit of a disappointment to myself, too (so I know exactly where you're coming from.) Regards
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 16:02:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
Are you double posting concerning Katie. If you are, I am really disappointed in you. Hello JW. If by 'double posting' you mean sending the same message twice, then yes I did, but only by accident. The first one took so long to come through, I thought perhaps I hadn't actually sent it (I'd drunk a couple of beers), then as soon as I resent it the first one appeared, and I felt pretty stupid. I could have posted again to say 'oops - sorry!' but three posts in a row not saying very much might have looked like an attempt to hog the forum. To make matters worse I then referred to Daya as 'Ayar' (kind of mixing up Amer with Daya) in a reply to Katie, and then posted a correction. So, I'm sorry about that Katie, and hope, JW, I'm not too much of a disappointment to you. Believe me, I'm a bit of a disappointment to myself, too (so I know exactly where you're coming from.) Regards I don't think that's what JW meant, Nigel. (Unless his Catholic upbringing is catching up with him and he's getting REALLY strict standards for the forum). Anyway, I don't think he'll be disappointed in you (at least I hope not.) I'll let JW explain it - I have to go get ready to watch the Super Bowl (not really, but I'll let JW explain it anyway). Regards from K
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 22:34:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
Are you double posting concerning Katie. If you are, I am really disappointed in you. Hello JW. If by 'double posting' you mean sending the same message twice, then yes I did, but only by accident. The first one took so long to come through, I thought perhaps I hadn't actually sent it (I'd drunk a couple of beers), then as soon as I resent it the first one appeared, and I felt pretty stupid. I could have posted again to say 'oops - sorry!' but three posts in a row not saying very much might have looked like an attempt to hog the forum. To make matters worse I then referred to Daya as 'Ayar' (kind of mixing up Amer with Daya) in a reply to Katie, and then posted a correction. So, I'm sorry about that Katie, and hope, JW, I'm not too much of a disappointment to you. Believe me, I'm a bit of a disappointment to myself, too (so I know exactly where you're coming from.) Regards I don't think that's what JW meant, Nigel. (Unless his Catholic upbringing is catching up with him and he's getting REALLY strict standards for the forum). Anyway, I don't think he'll be disappointed in you (at least I hope not.) I'll let JW explain it - I have to go get ready to watch the Super Bowl (not really, but I'll let JW explain it anyway). Regards from K Well, somebody ELSE is using the tag "JW" because those posts, which I haven't the foggiest idea are talking about, were NOT posted by ME. It is some other "JW" and I wish the person would select some other tag, or, if they want mine, I change mine. This is annoying. Sorry about the Superbowl, Katie. I lost money on that one!
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 23:01:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
Well, somebody ELSE is using the tag 'JW' because those posts, which I haven't the foggiest idea are talking about, were NOT posted by ME. It is some other 'JW' and I wish the person would select some other tag, or, if they want mine, I change mine. This is annoying. Sorry about the Superbowl, Katie. I lost money on that one! Hey JW - which one isn't you? The one who posted to Nigel at the top of this thread? It didn't sound like you, BTW. Any other fake JW posts around? Thanks for your condolences about the super bowl, JW, and sorry that you lost money on it. Terrell Davis was absolutely unbeatable - amazing. We didn't bet any money on it (actually, with that point spread I probably would have bet on Denver), but Peter did turn off the TV 18 seconds before the end of the game. I would have liked to see Bret Favre and John Elway shake hands, but it's always best to humor a Packer fan who is in distress. Now I'm stuck with two dozen Green Bay Packer cupcakes (my mother-in-law sent us the mix), so I guess we'll have a wake tomorrow at work.
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Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 23:21:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW and Nigel
Subject: JW didn't post the above. (Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie)
Message:
You guys probably already figured this out, but just to set things straight, the real JW didn't post the message to Nigel at the TOP of the above thread. It was apparently our anonymous flamer (a.k.a. JD, SexyBitch, Mindman, Me, Kevin L. and Chickenshit.)
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 00:54:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
The top of the thread is NOT me. There was one other post about a week ago in which someone pretended to be me as well. Note to Nigel (sorry, my Dalmatian is named Nigel and it sounds funny somehow): I did NOT accuse you of saying anything nasty bout anyone. Okay? I don't think you would do that. And I don't know who posted that. Re the Superbowl. I just bet in one of those office pools, and I had Green Bay ahead at every quarter. I guess I lost them all. Cupcakes sound good, however. No matter what color they are. It was sort of funny, however, because of the White House scandal, there was so little hype in the media about the Superbowl this year. Fine with me. Give my best to Peter. Now he knows how the 49er fans felt a couple of weeks ago. Denver just played well; maybe it was drugs or something. Unfortunately, the Packers are a better team. JW
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 01:22:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie
Message:
The top of the thread is NOT me. There was one other post about a week ago in which someone pretended to be me as well. Note to Nigel (sorry, my Dalmatian is named Nigel and it sounds funny somehow): I did NOT accuse you of saying anything nasty bout anyone. Okay? I don't think you would do that. And I don't know who posted that. Re the Superbowl. I just bet in one of those office pools, and I had Green Bay ahead at every quarter. I guess I lost them all. Cupcakes sound good, however. No matter what color they are. It was sort of funny, however, because of the White House scandal, there was so little hype in the media about the Superbowl this year. Fine with me. Give my best to Peter. Now he knows how the 49er fans felt a couple of weeks ago. Denver just played well; maybe it was drugs or something. Unfortunately, the Packers are a better team. JW Dear JW - Re the false JW postings: it appears that we have our own little poltergeist here - maybe we need an exorcist. Thanks for your sympathy about the Packers (totally off topic, I know - sorry to anyone who is grieviously offended). They just didn't play very well - although unfortunately (for you & yours) they DID play very well against the 49ers. P.S. Don't you have those football team colors cake mixes in the SF area? They're made by Betty Crocker. Maybe they're test-marketing them in Wisconsin, where they're sure to sell millions no matter how badly the Packers play.
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 02:22:18 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Katie, & the real JW
Subject: Just for the record (Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie)
Message:
You guys probably already figured this out, but just to set things straight, the real JW didn't post the message to Nigel at the TOP of the above thread. It was apparently our anonymous flamer (a.k.a. JD, SexyBitch, Mindman, Me, Kevin L. and Chickenshit.) Thanks JW and Katie. I was getting a little confused. Just for the record, I did one anonymous post as 'North of the Trent' and owned up immediately. Apart from that I am always 'Nigel' or 'nftv'. When I get my email ID, I will always include that.
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Date: Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 15:37:12 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: CHICKENSHIT (Re: Is it you Nigel? Re Katie)
Message:
You guys probably already figured this out, but just to set things straight, the real JW didn't post the message to Nigel at the TOP of the above thread. It was apparently our anonymous flamer (a.k.a. JD, SexyBitch, Mindman, Me, Kevin L. and Chickenshit.) Thanks JW and Katie. I was getting a little confused. Just for the record, I did one anonymous post as 'North of the Trent' and owned up immediately. Apart from that I am always 'Nigel' or 'nftv'. When I get my email ID, I will always include that. I really am departing now. I know I've 'signed off' more times than Frank Sinatra has retired, but I mean it this time. It think it is very likely that before long that Mr snivelling-creep Chickenman will be posting offensive stuff under the name of 'Nigel', and I won't be around to deny responsibility, so for future reference: >I will not be posting ANYTHING, at least before the end of February >When I do, it will be long, formal, over-punctuated, with UK spellings (the usual sort of thing) >It will contain references to the theoretical origins of the phrase 'Elan Vital', and an interesting snippet about M, written by James Randi (not terribly complimentary, in fact). Anything appearing sooner is not mine. Best wishes.
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