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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
4 |
From:
Jan 21, 1998 |
To:
Feb 4, 1998 |
Page:
1
Of:
5 |
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Sorry OP, You need -:- to take another look -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:31:09 (EST)
Katie -:- Receiving Knowledge? -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:59:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Receiving Knowledge? -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:27:23 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Receiving Knowledge? -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:37:52 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Receiving Knowledge? -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 22:36:55 (EST)
a fresh source of -:- holy water -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 10:26:26 (EST)
Quoting Brian -:- The Techniques -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:53:38 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:47:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 00:19:41 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 02:16:01 (EST)
___op -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 03:18:35 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:13:21 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 05:40:46 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:28:04 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 15:01:30 (EST)
___Paul -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:30:30 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:01:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:32:38 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:17:52 (EST)
___Brian's Intinerant Secretary -:- Re: The Techniques -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:52:38 (EST)
Paul -:- Premie Trivia -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:28:27 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Not trivia to me -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:09:49 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Not trivia to me -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 01:01:37 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Premie Trivia -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 04:51:21 (EST)
Sir David -:- God bless you all -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:42:30 (EST)
___Fishy, Janice, etc -:- Re: God bless you all -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 18:55:17 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: God bless you all -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:18:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: God bless you all -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
___To bftb -:- I know u like a joke B ;-) nt -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:24:22 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: God bless you all -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:05:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: God bless you all -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:14:52 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: I know u like a joke B ;-) nt -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:36:23 (EST)
___connect -:- to what? -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:49:54 (EST)
another -:- twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 09:07:57 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 09:31:49 (EST)
___twisting in -:- 79 -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 10:34:57 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:21:14 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:28:17 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:30:00 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:05:13 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:21:47 (EST)
___VP -:- The Great Pumpkin -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:36:53 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:40:27 (EST)
___VP -:- The Great Pumpkin -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:42:43 (EST)
___BP -:- Re: The Great Pumpkin -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:49:19 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: The Great Pumpkin -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:50:41 (EST)
___VP -:- Dr. Seuss -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:04:34 (EST)
___jim boeger -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:09:48 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:20:46 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:29:27 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: twist (& hello to jim b) -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:48:38 (EST)
___VP -:- Evidence -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:08:31 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:34:08 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:40:53 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:54:06 (EST)
___never can tell -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:55:12 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: twist (& hello to jim b) -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:21:34 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:26:47 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 18:32:10 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:12:51 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:32:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:09:25 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:26:42 (EST)
___Stephen B -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:26:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: twist the stage -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:09:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: premie.org -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:16:35 (EST)
___orange -:- twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:58:10 (EST)
___recognition -:- of what? -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:21:55 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: deja news -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:32:49 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:56:50 (EST)
___Shake it up baby -:- Twist & Shout -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:17:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Twist & Shout -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:27:08 (EST)
___op -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:02:49 (EST)
___op -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:13:58 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:39:25 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 10:18:55 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:36:15 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: deja news -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:19:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: more about deja news -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:53:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist the stage -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:39:02 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:54:23 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: twist -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:18:22 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Deja news -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:34:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: twist the stage -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:39:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Deja news -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:48:42 (EST)
___VP -:- Afraid of M -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:11:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Afraid of M -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 22:01:31 (EST)
Sir David -:- Missing old friends -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 01:41:33 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Missing old friends -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:08:48 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Missing old friends -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:55:19 (EST)
Brian -:- Forum II archives online -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:36:29 (EST)
Anon -:- An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 07:09:40 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 11:22:40 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 11:56:23 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 13:42:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 17:18:47 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 17:40:55 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 18:39:56 (EST)
___StephenB -:- regrets and resentment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 20:06:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 20:51:12 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 21:03:16 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Just disappointment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 21:27:26 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: An apology from M?? -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:32:04 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Just disappointment -:- Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:36:48 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 00:32:09 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: An apology from M? -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 06:46:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:00:28 (EST)
___LG -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:04:07 (EST)
___LG -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:07:41 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: An apology from M? -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:05:36 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:18:37 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:54:39 (EST)
___Curious -:- Re: Just disappointment -:- Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:08:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:10:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: regrets and resentment -:- Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:21:11 (EST)
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:31:09 (EST)
Poster: Sorry OP, You need
Email: BB
To: Everyone
Subject: to take another look
Message:
Wow OP, I am amazed at how you see the video.
You quite obviously are like some of my friends who completely
missed his mid life crisis during the ninties and didn't see
his personal admissions of being affected by his mothers
death and it's long drawn out repercussions.
I would reccomend watching all the videos from the one
from hawaii on. That was the one where he started verbalizing
his self analysis. Then he went to india and then england,
in england he was definately a broken person and I was
hooked on his every word that was about his changeing views.
Sometimes it was just one sentence in a video that was about
his latest recognition. When I got to this site and after I
kept saying that he always speaks about himself, or from his
own experience. Just like the bird story, it was a bird at his
house, his flight test, his stay at the hotel at universal
studio on the 24th floor, almost, and maybe all the video
was just like I say, it is about him and his experience
and his ideas off his experience. Sometimes he certainly
will borrow from a qoute of someone and give his
opinion on it, or a story of something that he read in the
paper and give his view on it but that is still him and his
views on things that he is talking about.
You feel like most people I know that he is speaking from
some place that is not subject to lifes effects and he is
speaking TO the audience and always ABOUT the audience.
Which is amazing because he ALWAYS speaks about himself.
Of course I know he DOES make comments after he says something
personal that makes it sound like he is talking about you.
Just like at the dec.97 event when he went on that long
and highly revealing talk about him being imprisoned by
hate and darkness and two other things, I think they were
greed, and well, I have the tape. It was a good recognition
of the effects of that stuff and it came directly from his
own experience. At the end of it he said YOU, YOU, YOU, but
he is talking about himself. When I posted that on the
forum I was still the apologist and so where he said YOU,
I posted the words WE. To make him more _________ you fill in
the blank, and to make him less obviously unable to let down the
last mile of pretense.
He has still talked about his personal evolution at the dec 98
event;
'This evening I's like to talk about transformation, because we have the ability to transform. Why do I use that word
transformation? Thats the word I choose because I need to
be transformed. I have that potential. And if I don't utilize that
potential, then what good is it for me to sit there and
only dream when I can realize it, make it real for myself?'
He is talking about himself. You think he is in some permenant
unchangeing place. Sorry, you don't know him.
of course then he does the usual thing and says something that
would make it seem that he is above it.
'And the transformation is not possible without knowledge
and the master.'
'what is my nature? I know I can hate, I have the capability
of hating.' and he has used that capability.
I did NOT misinterpret what he said in the video. Why don't
you watch that video a few times and notice how the audience
reactions dont correspond with his output. How he says something
and where he is at in his voice and his look, and listen to the
crowd, that is revealing in itself.
He is not beyond. He is exalted because of what he does, not
because of who he is.
He is not any different than the next guy. He is not more
spiritual or more divine or more anything.
The evidence is there. It is just hard to accept and see if you
are all programmed up like I was and like you mili and chris are.
And like JW and Brian and David and Anon and all were.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:59:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Receiving Knowledge?
Message:
Mr. Ex's story about people who only received one, two, or three of the techniques reminded me of a quote from Maharaji that's on the ex-prem web site. At one point I edited a bunch of Maharaji's quotes that Mr. Ex had given me from one of the initiator's manuals (Initiators were people - premies - who gave Knowledge).
There were several quotes like the following one, which really surprised me (and of course made me wonder if I got knowledge from an initiator that was "in his mind"!) All these quotes are on the ex-premie site, but I forget the title that they are under ("Becoming an Initiator") or something like that.
In the following quote, I believe that Maharaji is explaining to the initiators (in an IDP - Initiator's Development Program - lecture) what happens to people who receive Knowledge from an Initiator who is 'in his mind':
" ... if you are sitting in a Knowledge session and your mind kicks in, that's a havoc. That's very dangerous. Because you know what you might be doing? You might be taking your mind, amplifying it about 300,000 times, and giving it to this poor guy who is just completely like dedicated to Guru Maharaj Ji, and who just wants to receive that most incredible gift of his life. Ready to receive the most incredible Grace. Ready to receive the most incredible I mean, ready to fulfill the purpose of his life. And you might blow it.
You might get straightened out the next day. Your mind, Mister Mind, can just, you know, take a vacation for one day. But never for that guy. Once he is confused, he is confused."
- Guru Maharaj Ji, IDP Satsang, Malibu, February 3, 1978
Is this as weird as I think? Does anyone have any experience of anything like this? Maharaji also talks a lot about the incredible pressure on initiators because they are at the point where Maharaji's grace hits the aspirant, and how the techniques are nothing without Maharaji's grace.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:27:23 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Receiving Knowledge?
Message:
Mr. Ex's story about people who only received one, two, or three of the techniques reminded me of a quote from Maharaji that's on the ex-prem web site. At one point I edited a bunch of Maharaji's quotes that Mr. Ex had given me from one of the initiator's manuals (Initiators were people - premies - who gave Knowledge).
There were several quotes like the following one, which really surprised me (and of course made me wonder if I got knowledge from an initiator that was 'in his mind'!) All these quotes are on the ex-premie site, but I forget the title that they are under ('Becoming an Initiator') or something like that.
In the following quote, I believe that Maharaji is explaining to the initiators (in an IDP - Initiator's Development Program - lecture) what happens to people who receive Knowledge from an Initiator who is 'in his mind':
' ... if you are sitting in a Knowledge session and your mind kicks in, that's a havoc. That's very dangerous. Because you know what you might be doing? You might be taking your mind, amplifying it about 300,000 times, and giving it to this poor guy who is just completely like dedicated to Guru Maharaj Ji, and who just wants to receive that most incredible gift of his life. Ready to receive the most incredible Grace. Ready to receive the most incredible I mean, ready to fulfill the purpose of his life. And you might blow it.
You might get straightened out the next day. Your mind, Mister Mind, can just, you know, take a vacation for one day. But never for that guy. Once he is confused, he is confused.'
- Guru Maharaj Ji, IDP Satsang, Malibu, February 3, 1978
Is this as weird as I think? Does anyone have any experience of anything like this? Maharaji also talks a lot about the incredible pressure on initiators because they are at the point where Maharaji's grace hits the aspirant, and how the techniques are nothing without Maharaji's grace.
Most everything I heard from people who were in one of those initiator training programs in Malibu, was that they were incredibly intense and that Guru Maharaj Ji did everything possible to absolutely scare the crap out of them. Really, there were a number of people who went through one of those programs who I would say had post traumatic stress syndrome, and several admitted to me that they considered suicide during the program.
I think these heavy satsangs were all part of M's attempt to keep control of people. That, and controlling the amount of access people had to HIM. I can recall Maharaji talking about a certain person and whether that person's "stock was up or stock was down" (with HIM). I think that kind of stuff had a tendency to keep people too scared to do anything but what he wanted, but I think it had a tendency to make them too scared to do much of anything.
For those initiators, there must have been a lot of fear that they might be in their minds, as if that would somehow screw up aspirants for the rest of their lives. What a bunch of crap that is. What a level of responsibility he was suggesting they take.
To a lesser degree, he did the same thing in those ashram meetings with the ashram premies. He exuded tons of fear on people who, at least to some degree, believed he was all-knowing and all-powerful. There wasn't much joy in it. IT was very heavy and it tended to keep people in line big time, and certainly NEVER to discuss doubts they might have.
It was all part of keeping control.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:37:52 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Receiving Knowledge?
Message:
Mr. Ex's story about people who only received one, two, or three of the techniques reminded me of a quote from Maharaji that's on the ex-prem web site. At one point I edited a bunch of Maharaji's quotes that Mr. Ex had given me from one of the initiator's manuals (Initiators were people - premies - who gave Knowledge).
There were several quotes like the following one, which really surprised me (and of course made me wonder if I got knowledge from an initiator that was 'in his mind'!) All these quotes are on the ex-premie site, but I forget the title that they are under ('Becoming an Initiator') or something like that.
In the following quote, I believe that Maharaji is explaining to the initiators (in an IDP - Initiator's Development Program - lecture) what happens to people who receive Knowledge from an Initiator who is 'in his mind':
' ... if you are sitting in a Knowledge session and your mind kicks in, that's a havoc. That's very dangerous. Because you know what you might be doing? You might be taking your mind, amplifying it about 300,000 times, and giving it to this poor guy who is just completely like dedicated to Guru Maharaj Ji, and who just wants to receive that most incredible gift of his life. Ready to receive the most incredible Grace. Ready to receive the most incredible I mean, ready to fulfill the purpose of his life. And you might blow it.
You might get straightened out the next day. Your mind, Mister Mind, can just, you know, take a vacation for one day. But never for that guy. Once he is confused, he is confused.'
- Guru Maharaj Ji, IDP Satsang, Malibu, February 3, 1978
Is this as weird as I think? Does anyone have any experience of anything like this? Maharaji also talks a lot about the incredible pressure on initiators because they are at the point where Maharaji's grace hits the aspirant, and how the techniques are nothing without Maharaji's grace.
So I guess I don't have to worry, because my initiator had no mind at all- only machine, (Ha Ha) I hope Shri d@vid wasn't in his mind the day that he wrote those Knowledge technique pages...
Seriously, I have a legitimate question for op, if she is listening out there. Op, you have apparently been a premie for a long time. Didn't you have any problems with the change in purpose of the DLM? (the one that JW is talking about in the Elan Vital thread) In the quote above M talks about receiving K as fulfilling the purpose of ones life. When I was young, all I ever heard was that M was the Perfect Master. That there had been many Perfect Masters, Christ, Budda, Krishna, M, etc. I was told that M was the link between God and man. I was told that he was exactly like Christ and that K was the "word" and the "light" that Christ spoke of in the Bible. I was told that K was the answer to the questions of the universe and that K was actually God. To know M and K was to understand the creator and life. To be without that was living death. (Were you told these same things. If so do you still believe them?)
Then suddenly the story changed and everything was so toned down, so watered down really. Suddenly M wasn't the Satguru, just a guy giving some grace and meditation techniques. The literature changed and the image changed. The names of the K even changed. Even the emphasis on the importance of K changed.
I guess it's a puzzle to me and I wonder how you feel about these changes and how you reconciled them. Do you feel that M is what he originally stated or do you relate more to his new image? Are the two really different or are they really the same once you are involved. Has your outlook towards M changed or is it still the same as ever? I know that these are very personal questions and I would understand if you don't want to answer. I am sincere in asking . (Also you exs feel free to answer with your insights.)
I also want to say that even though you obviously feel very differently from a lot of the people on this site, at least you engage in real dialogue instead of insults like alot of the premies who post here.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 22:36:55 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au
To: VP
Subject: Re: Receiving Knowledge?
Message:
Dear VP
I am an ex-premie from Western Australia, I received "knowledege" in 1978 and began to wake up around 1985. I agree with all that you've said, "Knowledge" and GMJ were the purpose of my life, or so I thought for a while. After a time however I started to think if GMJ was so perfect why was DLM going through turmultuous changes. One day it was OK to sing "Arti" after Satsang and express feelings of devotion and the next we were hearing that our minds were feeding on the devotion and that we should concentrate purely on practicing "service", "satsang" and meditation.
Do you recall the Bihar Satsang and how GMJ was displeased with the direction of DLM and how he was going to put us all straight again?. It seemed we little Premies could never get it right and that our minds were always scewing us up. Oh what feelings of guilt that us deluded Premies always screwed things up and let our dreadful minds send us in the wrong direction.
The one thing I really miss about DLM is the people... the other Premies and Aspirants, we were like a family and we all genuinely cared for each other. I deeply regret loosing contact with many of them. Even with all of the bad times, I would not have traded this episode in my life, it taught me many lessons and I think made me a better person in the long run.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 10:26:26 (EST)
Poster: a fresh source of
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: holy water
Message:
This just in on the AP wire:
TOKYO (AP) -- Three years after its leaders were jailed for a deadly nerve gas attack on the Tokyo subways, the Aum Shinri Kyo doomsday cult is bolstering its ranks and rebuilding its financial muscle.
The cult's backbone was broken after the March 20, 1995, gas attack, which killed 12 people. Dozens of followers confessed to a series of crimes, membership plummeted and guru Shoko Asahara went on trial for murder.
But government officials say the cult is making a comeback.
``We need to keep a very close watch on the group,'' Japan's Public Security Investigation Agency said in a report released this week. ``They are becoming more secretive and defensive.''
More than 500 cultists are back in their communes, busy rebuilding their shattered finances through lucrative computer sales. The cult operates branch offices and is recruiting on college campuses, the report said.
The cult fiercely criticized the report, released on Monday. On its Internet homepage, the cult denounced the study as ``an attempt to disrupt a religious activity in the name of an official announcement.''
``The report is one-sided and lacking background,'' the cult said. ``As an official announcement, the agency should present evidence based on the facts.''
The cult is far from the power it wielded at its zenith. Prior to the 1995 attack, the cult claimed 10,000 members in Japan and 30,000 others in Russia and had amassed a fortune from business dealings.
The slow resurgence of the group, however, is troubling to Japanese who associate the cult with the crimes it is accused of: gassing commuters to death, drugging initiates, murdering opponents and defectors.
``I'm scared,'' said Shizue Takahashi, whose husband was killed in the subway attack. ``Despite all the killings and assaults their fellow members committed, these people are starting all over again without a word of regret or apology.''
Besides the Tokyo attack, which sickened thousands of people and shocked the country, the cult has also been linked to a nerve-gas attack in central Japan in 1994 that killed seven people.
The confessions of former followers have detailed a string of grisly crimes, including killings of members who wanted to leave the cult and rivals, such as an anti-cult lawyer and his wife and infant son.
The cult also kept slavish rituals that included the drinking of Asahara's blood and bathwater and the wearing of electric helmets fitted with wires that members thought would put their brainwaves in synch with their guru.
In the crackdown that followed the subway attack, that all fell apart. Hundreds were arrested, thousands fled the group; the cult was stripped of its religious status and declared bankrupt.
The group was considered so thoroughly neutralized that a Japanese government panel rejected a proposal last year to completely ban the cult's activities, saying it no longer posed a ``clear and imminent danger.''
The government report this week detailed the cult's moves to re-establish itself.
Aum has established a library and 28 branch offices across the nation in an attempt to entice former members back into the group, the study said. It runs 100 communes.
The sect also operates four companies and two outlets for the sale of personal computers. Last year alone, the cult made at least $32 million through computer sales.
Time has also undone some of the damage of the crackdown. Of the more than 400 cultists who were arrested, 343 have been released, the survey said, and 150 of those have returned to the cult.
Recruiters are frequently seen at college campuses, where fliers featuring cooking or yoga lessons are distributed, the agency said. In the last three months of 1997, the group held at least 190 seminars on its teachings with a total of 3,300 paying attendants.
The cult's voluminous homepage, which features color pictures of Asahara, quotes from the guru and lists of his books, shows that belief among at least some of the followers is still as fervent as ever.
``There is no mistake in what our supreme master says,'' the homepage declares. '
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:53:38 (EST)
Poster: Quoting Brian
Email: Brian's itinerant secretary
To: Everyone
Subject: The Techniques
Message:
Brian wrote slightly edited):
I have been corresponding with some people to try to get clear on just what 'we' were told about the 'Ancient Techniques' that Jesus himself used to peddle.
Your [David Stirling's] description of the meditation techniques was different from what I was told by Mahatma Rajeshwar in 1972. Mr. Ex's description was even more different! Someone else
posted here that they had been shown nine techniques in a Knowledge Session that spanned days!
I don't think that the descriptions on a page named 'The Knowledge
Techniques' should look like out-takes from one person's Journeys entry. Neither should they look like a collection of opinions from the Forum.
But, from what I'm finding through talking to ex's about it, every mahatma taught different techniques, and taught them differently. Perhaps even at different times.
I am even questioning whether a 6-year old [GMJ] can remember a damn thing from his session. Someone makes him satguru two years later and who's he gonna ask for a review? Bob Mishler said that MJ didn't meditate. Who taught him in the meantime?
In keeping our 'vows' of secrecy about the techniques, we also kept them from each other. That you [David Stirling] put the [Knowledge] page on the site in the first place is a very good thing, in my view. I want it there still, and as a look back at what 'was' being taught. But what was really being taught?? By whom, and when?? To replace your version (which is different from my experience) with my version (which may be different from other people's), is hardly the solution.
So, tell me people - what were you told, by who, and when? Maybe that page will end up looking like a forum digest...
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:47:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger0
To: Quoting Brian
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
I would have to say that the "knowledge" techniques I was revealed by that pederast Mahatma Parlokanad, who may have been distracted thinking about little boys while revealing the techniques, taught techniques very close to what David had put on the site previously.
With "light" he squeezed my eyeballs so hard that I'm surprised he didn't burst a vein. I saw green and white light in patterns, but it was not very satisfying and I always found the technique somewhat boring, and painful.
Music technique consisted of sticking one's thumbs in one's ears and resting your elbows on a baragon. I heard rumbling sounds which I think were the sounds of the blood running through my thumbs, although at other times I did at least have the sensation of hearing french horns.
Nectar was sticking your tongue down your throat. Never did anything for me, although I tried to do it constantly for years, and was told by Parlokanand that if you did nectar technique you would "automatically" be meditating on the word, and it was the goal to meditate on the word ("holy name") every hour of every day of your life.
Word technique, the one I had the "best" experience with, was to follow your breath, but really it was to follow the force "behind" your breath, and I think I did experience that, or at least I was able to focus my mind on it and my mind slowed down when that happened. I heard some people were told in their knowledge sessions that the force had the sound of "so hung," but Parlokanand never mentioned that in my knowledge session. I only heard about "so hung" later in a knowledge review conducted by someone else, can't remember who.
Everyone I knew as a premie had pretty much the same techniques. And since we all went to the same knowledge reviews, I think the techniques were pretty uniform, until Maharaji changed them, to whatever he changed them to, some years later. He apparently isn't so into them anymore, suggesting that you just meditate a few minutes every day. Then, we were told to meditate an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, minimum, and in the mid-70s M said that should be increased to TWO hours in the morning and TWO hours in the evening. Made for even more sleep-deprived premies in the ashrams.
BTW -- in my knowledge session we were told we had to repeat a prayer in which we dedicated our entire lives to Guru Maharaj Ji, and this was BEFORE we received knowledge. If we didn't do it, we didn't receive knowledge. So much for this knowledge being completely free and with no strings attached.
JW
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 00:19:41 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
I would agree with JW on the music, word, and nectar techniques. (I can't remember who I received Knowledge from, but it wasn't Parlokanand, Rajeshwar or any of the more famous mahatmas). He didn't tell us about baragons in the knowledge session, BTW, so it was a few months before I learned about them.
I also never learned any of the so-called "words" that were supposed to be THE word (so hum, so hung, sat nam) until later Knowledge reviews. I was also told to try and meditate on the force behind the word, so that's how I ended up meditating on my heartbeat - as I related some time ago. Like JW, I was told in the knowledge session to "remember Holy Name" (meditate on the Word) as much as possible - all day and all night if we could.
I also never heard "music" if "music" was supposed to contain musical notes, but I did hear the inside of a seashell noise that Milivoj talked about. I was not ever taught the right ear/left ear dichotomy that other premies have described. During one knowledge review I was told that it was OK to meditate on music using earplugs rather than your thumbs to plug your eards.
I never tasted nectar, and it hurt to try so I didn't try very much.
B. and I were talking about the light technique last night, and we were apparently taught two different techniques (we both got Knowledge in the early 1970's). I was taught to put my forefinger of my right hand on my "third eye" and put my thumb and middle fingers at the outer corners of my eyes. Then I was taught to move my thumb and middle finger towards the center of my eyes, gently pushing upwards until my eyes were "looking" at my third eye. Is this what other people were told to do? It didn't hurt, and the mahatma that I received Knowledge from didn't press on my eyes - he just touched them. I did see what I consider to be real white light in the knowledge session, but never again afterwards. (I did see that golden donut thing that premies used to talk about! I think that was an optic nerve reaction.)
I was taught to meditate an hour in the morning and an hour at night. I remember when Maharaji changed it to 2 hours and 2 hours, too (right before I left). That was impossible! We also used to have all-night meditations at the ashram sometimes.
Also, we learned proverbs and had to repeat vows in the knowledge session which I don't totally recall. I know one of them was "Never delay in attending Satsang" and one was "Leave no room for doubt in your mind". Can anyone remember any others? I think there was one about not revealing the techniques.
P.S. Regarding revealing the techniques: when I first started posting on the forum/newsgroup, I felt uncomfortable about revealing the techniques, because I had made that promise not to (even though the person I had made the promise to had - I felt - lied to me, I still didn't feel justified in breaking it). At that time I thought that the four techniques were sacred and unchanging, etc, although I knew they had been taught in the Raj Yoga tradition for ages and were not really secret. However, after reading the incredible variety of techniques that were revealed to aspirants and called "the knowledge", I don't even think that there is such a thing as "THE techniques" or "THE knowledge" any more.
P.P.S. To Mr. Ex - WHAT were you talking about when you mentioned premies that only received one, two, or three of the Knowledge techniques!?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 02:16:01 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
I would agree with JW on the music, word, and nectar techniques. (I can't remember who I received Knowledge from, but it wasn't Parlokanand, Rajeshwar or any of the more famous mahatmas). He didn't tell us about baragons in the knowledge session, BTW, so it was a few months before I learned about them.
I also never learned any of the so-called 'words' that were supposed to be THE word (so hum, so hung, sat nam) until later Knowledge reviews. I was also told to try and meditate on the force behind the word, so that's how I ended up meditating on my heartbeat - as I related some time ago. Like JW, I was told in the knowledge session to 'remember Holy Name' (meditate on the Word) as much as possible - all day and all night if we could.
I also never heard 'music' if 'music' was supposed to contain musical notes, but I did hear the inside of a seashell noise that Milivoj talked about. I was not ever taught the right ear/left ear dichotomy that other premies have described. During one knowledge review I was told that it was OK to meditate on music using earplugs rather than your thumbs to plug your eards.
I never tasted nectar, and it hurt to try so I didn't try very much.
B. and I were talking about the light technique last night, and we were apparently taught two different techniques (we both got Knowledge in the early 1970's). I was taught to put my forefinger of my right hand on my 'third eye' and put my thumb and middle fingers at the outer corners of my eyes. Then I was taught to move my thumb and middle finger towards the center of my eyes, gently pushing upwards until my eyes were 'looking' at my third eye. Is this what other people were told to do? It didn't hurt, and the mahatma that I received Knowledge from didn't press on my eyes - he just touched them. I did see what I consider to be real white light in the knowledge session, but never again afterwards. (I did see that golden donut thing that premies used to talk about! I think that was an optic nerve reaction.)
I was taught to meditate an hour in the morning and an hour at night. I remember when Maharaji changed it to 2 hours and 2 hours, too (right before I left). That was impossible! We also used to have all-night meditations at the ashram sometimes.
Also, we learned proverbs and had to repeat vows in the knowledge session which I don't totally recall. I know one of them was 'Never delay in attending Satsang' and one was 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind'. Can anyone remember any others? I think there was one about not revealing the techniques.
P.S. Regarding revealing the techniques: when I first started posting on the forum/newsgroup, I felt uncomfortable about revealing the techniques, because I had made that promise not to (even though the person I had made the promise to had - I felt - lied to me, I still didn't feel justified in breaking it). At that time I thought that the four techniques were sacred and unchanging, etc, although I knew they had been taught in the Raj Yoga tradition for ages and were not really secret. However, after reading the incredible variety of techniques that were revealed to aspirants and called 'the knowledge', I don't even think that there is such a thing as 'THE techniques' or 'THE knowledge' any more.
P.P.S. To Mr. Ex - WHAT were you talking about when you mentioned premies that only received one, two, or three of the Knowledge techniques!?
Katie,
I also learned the light technique as you described, only it was in 1977. The proverbs you mentioned were the "five commandments". I think they were the two you mentioned: "Never delay...", "Never leave room..." plus "Constantly meditate on the Holy Name" and a couple of others (one might have had something to do with cleanliness).
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 03:18:35 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
He apparently isn't so into them anymore, suggesting that you just meditate a few minutes every day.
Hi JW:
Just to clarify about practice time:
M's instructions at Knowledge sessions and at reviews (or practice sessions ) is to practice each technique for approximately 15 minutes, for a total of an hour each day as a MINIMUM. If you want to do more, fine. If you want to do less, he's not coming to your house to monitor you. But that's his suggestion. (this is all pretty much paraphrased from what he says - I won't go into the Minimum/Maximum speech, but anyone who's seen a video in the past three years will know what that's about)
He has mentioned as an example a Venezuelan fisherman who recently wrote him a letter saying that he went from practicing two hours to practicing three hours a day. M praised him for that. (okay, here I can go on the record as saying that's all well and good for someone who spends his day on a fishing boat in South American time, but those of us in the USA rat race can't find three hours a day - if you want to take that as criticism of what M said, feel free)
But what I wanted to point out is only that he doesn't minimize the experience and practice of the Knowledge techniques - in fact, he's been emphasizing them more and more, and in the past three years has made a concerted effort to give Knowledge reviews in every community he visits. Those who haven't been around in a long time can get a reminder of what it's about, and at the same time he's standardizing the techniques. He doesn't go into diatribes about why this Knowledge is real, or look for support in old scriptural statements, and he emphasizes that each person has her/his own experience and must follow that. The point about not sharing your internal experience is to avoid the preconceptions that are built up when someone runs on at the mouth about miles of golden tunnels, celestial orchestras, etc. and all you've ever experienced are a few silvery clouds and the thumping of your blood surging.
My own feeling is that I agree with this. I want to experience what's real for me, not an imagined result from what I heard described this afternoon. I don't think, btw, that what has been done on this forum is in the same vein - at least not so far. Considering that many of the people here have been loath to practice Knowledge for such a long time, I think you're just exchanging viewpoints, and I see a lot of honesty here.
M has also given a lot of very practical advice on how to approach practice, and how to get rid of some of the static that inevitably jumps at us when we try to calm down the racing thoughts. I've found this invaluable.
There was some question on another thread about a practice session and how people got to go in, so I thought I might as well address that here. Over the past few years, there's been a bit more precaution about finding out whether someone really has received Knowledge before they can go into what's known as a 'premie only' event. In Colorado in October, all those who registered went to a room with various instructors and received a card that was their entrance pass. Obviously there were some 'regulars' who got their cards with no questions, but anyone who was not immediately recognized was interviewed by one of the instructors - including some specifics about the techniques, etc. I didn't hear any complaints about how it was done - hopefully all the instructors behaved themselves and those coming were treated with courtesy and respect.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:13:21 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
>P.P.S. To Mr. Ex - WHAT were you talking about when you >mentioned premies that only received one, two, or three of >the Knowledge techniques!?
This is something m himself mentioned quite a few time:
some instructors/mahatmas k sessions ended up at the wrong time for some weird reasons, and some 'new' premies were left with some missing techniques. Maybe he didn't mention it too many time in premies sessions, but he recalled that in most of the instructors meetings....
BTW: Katie, it looks like you get my emails, I don't get yours!
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 05:40:46 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: all
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Katie wrote:
"WHAT were you talking about when you mentioned premies that only received one, two, or three of the Knowledge techniques!? "
I sat in on a Knowledge session in Aberystwyth (Wales) in about 1976. The instructor (then 'mahatma') who may have been this notorious Parlokanand chap (he was youngish and had pronouncedly sticking out ears) surprised everyone by giving several of the premie's children what he referred to as the 'Little Knowledge'.
This roughly translated into the showing of only 2 techniques (No's 1 & 2 of the 4) to these children (I think they were about 9 years of age). I gathered that this was acceptable practice and was not the whim of the Mahatma (although he may have been lying of course). I dimly recall that he explained that this was occasionally done in the case of children wanting Knowledge.(they were suppposed to find the first 2 techniques less subtle and therefore easier to practice)
I was later aspirant co-ordinator for years and was privvy to many K sessions with the likes of Anne Johnson, Gurucharanand, Ira Woods, Mattheus (Swiss), Rich Neil, David Smith, that little Austrian girl I forget her name, Krishnasuchanand (who gave me Knowlegedge),and loads more (too many to mention.) Sure Maharaji changed, simplified the techniques for whatever reasons over time.
What I sincerely question is that Knowledge comes exclusively from or by the mysterious 'grace' of Maharaji personally . Maharaji uses his name as a pseudonym for a higher power (even superior to him) but he still positions himself squarely between us and that power, as the master who weilds divine grace and instruction in knowledge as he chooses. I just cannotbring myself to believe that anymore. There are way too many things that point to more prosaic explanations for the supposed 'graceful' interventation of the man Maharaji who is clearly very human and capable of delusions, mistakes etc.
I also acknowledge that he does provide encouragement to practice (although I think that it is of a persuasive and questionable nature). To require aspirants to commit to a minimum practice time seems very draconian. In fact the whole process seems geared to building apprehension rather than relieving it. The recurrent SUGGESTION is that this Knowledge is not only a GIFT from Maharaji personally but that it is THE MOST PRECIOUS GIFT. All this before you even have a chance to evaluate it for yourself. Talk about giving preconceived ideas!
Of course from then on it is not hard to see why one associates any nice experiences of meditation with Maharaji. The association is almost forever indelibly made during the long awaited session! Notwithstanding that you have effectively made a solemn commitment to go and see Maharaji talking about it (pretty much to the exclusion of others). This is a very one sided and narrow sphere of influence to confine and commit oneself to.
It is surely an assumption that Maharaji is the singular channel for this and it seems dangerous to feed oneself the plain diet of watching his videos etc.endlessly. This habit does consummately achieve the dubious effect of regularly impressing the belief upon the listener that only thus will one be able to maintain inspiration.
The effect of listening to MJs addresses to me best as follows: I am bemused into a sort of mental numbness in which I disorientedly suppose that I am having my 'roving' mind blessedly stilled for a moment. That is all that I think is happening. The jokes, personality, entertainment bits (apart from entertainment value) serve simply to make the communication of his simple fundamental message palatable and make the speech longer.
If that's what people want to give themselves as a primary influence then fine. But I am finding that it is not for me as it stands. I actually preferred the heady days when at least people could join in and express themselves without taboo in meetings. Nowadays it's all very private and preciously guarded. The reason given is that it is the 'most precious' experience. Does that also mean, I wonder, that it can be easily shattered?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:28:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Dear op,
Thanks, as always, for your clarifications (I mean that). If possible could you explain a little more about the purpose of a "practice session"? I had never heard of one until bftb mentioned it. Is it sort of like the group meditations in the "olden days"?
R. from K.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
I only meant that it appeared Maharaji wasn't as "into" meditation because he says you don't need to do it as much, as the 2 to 4 hours he said was the minimum necessary in the past. I guess he is now recommending one hour per day. Boy, that would have made my life easier back in my ashram days! But, really, in those days (from about 1976 to 1983) Maharaji almost never talked about meditation, he talked about devotion and the real valuable prize. And he also had commanded constant meditation on holy name.
But you see, it appears that Maharaji still injects himself in the middle of the premie and the experience. He still presents himself, from what I can tell, as an indispensible part of the experience, not just as an instructor, motivator or the giver of good meditation tips like you suggest.
That's why, if you reject Maharaji, it makes it hard for some to continue the meditation practice, because it is so ingrained after thousands of hours of his satsang (and that of others) that it is HE that this whole experience is about. Although the truth is within you, it's really the experience of the perfect master that's most important. And for me, the experience of meditation is a limited thing, and I think I've done that, for many years, thank you.
Maybe the devotion tripisn't emphasized as much these days, but those of us who had that branded on our brains by Maharaji for all those years, might find it hard to see him any other way, and to associate the meditation techniques any other way, especially because I think his devotional trip is still there, just de-emphasized and expressed in more "relatable" terms for the 90s, and most of us sensitive to that will pick up the nuances right away. I know I did when I saw that Long Beach Video in 1996. I was amazed at how little had changed.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 15:01:30 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: all
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
"Maybe the devotion tripisn't emphasized as much these days, but those of us who had that branded on our brains by Maharaji for all those years, might find it hard to see him any other way, and to associate the meditation techniques any other way, especially because I think his devotional trip is still there, just de-emphasized and expressed in more 'relatable' terms for the 90s, and most of us sensitive to that will pick up the nuances right away. I know I did when I saw that Long Beach Video in 1996. I was amazed at how little had changed. "
I think this is a very important point. Althought the premies swear the devotional thing isn't the focus these days and has evaporated, all roads still lead to Rome, and the subtle nuances, as JW points out, are definitely there (and not so subtle to the trained observer). I've heard, for instance, that the song "Lord of the Universe" is played at programs, only as an instrumental. And the video I saw had the same old Kim Fields crooning at Maharaji as if he were her lover, and everyone staring in rapt devotion as if he were none other than God, tears on some faces, etc. while these mushy songs are sung to him. Who says the devotion thing is dead? It's just glossed over with a thin shellac of "normalcy" -- i.e. no more Krishna crowns and mala oufits, having Daya sing some songs as a side show (though she sings them with the same goo-goo eyes as Kim) etc.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:30:30 (EST)
Poster: Paul
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Your description of the light technique is how it was taught to me when I received knowledge in 1971
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:01:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Paul and others
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Thanks very much for answering, everyone. I know it's a delicate subject and a lot of people still don't like to talk about it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:32:38 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
I also wanted to mention that apparently for a time in the 80s or early 90s Maharaji was suggesting even LESS meditation, just a few minutes and to just meditate whenever you felt like it, not necessarily every day. I can't recall who posted that, but I think I am summarizing the gist of what was said. Apparently, from what OP said, that has changed again.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:17:52 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Quoting Brian
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Hmmm... should I select Quote Message in Reply or not...
Anyway, what I think I'll do is to gather these posts together and bundle them on the same page with the infamous pictures. I wasn't happy with the text (e.g. "swallow your tongue" -> picture showing tongue going UP sinus passageway) as it was before, but was even MORE reluctant to insert my own words as Scripture describing the "correct" way to practice. The new page ("The Techniques") will show up in the Nuts & Bolts section, and be cross-linked to the aspirant process Knowledge Session page that Mr. Ex contributed.
BTW, we'er getting top-heavy on the forum again, and it's time to archive. I'll have them online pretty snappy now that I can break them up. Archive #4 will be available the day after the forum resets. Archive #1 should be ready before the weekend at the rate I'm able to work on the fixer. So, I'll reset within the next 24 hours - probably tomorrow (Wednesday) morning (EST).
Thanks for all your responses to this awkward topic.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:52:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian's Intinerant Secretary
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: The Techniques
Message:
Hmmm... should I select Quote Message in Reply or not...
Anyway, what I think I'll do is to gather these posts together and bundle them on the same page with the infamous pictures. I wasn't happy with the text (e.g. 'swallow your tongue' -> picture showing tongue going UP sinus passageway) as it was before, but was even MORE reluctant to insert my own words as Scripture describing the 'correct' way to practice. The new page ('The Techniques') will show up in the Nuts & Bolts section, and be cross-linked to the aspirant process Knowledge Session page that Mr. Ex contributed.
BTW, we'er getting top-heavy on the forum again, and it's time to archive. I'll have them online pretty snappy now that I can break them up. Archive #4 will be available the day after the forum resets. Archive #1 should be ready before the weekend at the rate I'm able to work on the fixer. So, I'll reset within the next 24 hours - probably tomorrow (Wednesday) morning (EST).
Thanks for all your responses to this awkward topic.
Wait a minute, Brian. Aren't you going to tell us about YOUR techniques? I'm really curious now.
See ya in Forum #5...
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:28:27 (EST)
Poster: Paul
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie Trivia
Message:
Re: art on the "Breaking Free" page. As you probably know, David Laflame was the leader of the band "It's a Beautiful Day." The "lady" is on the bands first album. David was a premie in the San Fransico area in the early 70s. He went to India during the 1972 pilgramage. His guitar got broken and I don't think he ever quite recovered.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:09:49 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Paul
Subject: Not trivia to me (Re: Premie Trivia)
Message:
I always wondered what happened to "It's a beautiful day." Thanks.
I still have my album somewhere with "White Bird" on. They were a unique snapshot of cultural history.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 01:01:37 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Not trivia to me (Re: Premie Trivia)
Message:
Yes, I remember It's A Beautiful Day, they were one of the quintessential San Francisco bands in the 60s, quite lovely, I used to see them now and again at Winterland and the Fillmore. Sorry about David LaFlamme's violin, though, hope he managed to get another one. Anyone know what he's up to now?
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 04:51:21 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au
To: Paul
Subject: Re: Premie Trivia
Message:
Dear Paul
Have you heard of the old Premie groups "Jiva" and "One Foundation" ?. Thinking back DLM pumped out some pretty good Music in the late 70's.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:42:30 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: God bless you all
Message:
You are not wrong in what you write. We are the children of God.
God has seen our sincerety and our love. Everything you do is OK by Him. You're on the right track.
He who is our all compassionate eternal Father knows of our plight. He loves each one of us more than words can say.
Hold hard brave souls, strong and true. Your hearts are unblemished. We are the true riders on the storm...
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 18:55:17 (EST)
Poster: Fishy, Janice, etc
Email: Kabir@rest
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: God bless you all
Message:
Hey Sir David,
Now that was from the heart.
Just reading a few of your posts and thought I sensed melancholia, in regards to M and yourself a few posts down. (this may be an understatement)
I just happen to love M myself, but regardless, we are all rich, nothing outside means much if we dont connect inside.
In the middle of all the name calling and pointing of fingers (I know I'm the worst ) you are one of the better and more caring.
I felt a bit sad for you when I read that M means nothing to you now.
I have a friend who calls M for everything and then I catch him out and I see he still loves M. (actually he left this area and last time I seen him he was wearing womens clothes and I swear to god he looked like Doris Day...Hahahahah honest)
I go only to see M now (not many local progs) but I never met anyone who gave me so much for so little in return. Serious!
Anyway all the very best to you :-)
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:18:11 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Fishy, Janice, etc
Subject: Re: God bless you all
Message:
Doris Day?I've seen that guy too!Looked great,but he should wax a bit more.
Alright fishyguy,looks like I had you pegged all wrong.Figures.This was a great post,thanks for lightening things up.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Fishy, Janice, etc
Subject: Re: God bless you all
Message:
Hey Sir David,
Now that was from the heart.
Just reading a few of your posts and thought I sensed melancholia, in regards to M and yourself a few posts down. (this may be an understatement)
I just happen to love M myself, but regardless, we are all rich, nothing outside means much if we dont connect inside.
In the middle of all the name calling and pointing of fingers (I know I'm the worst ) you are one of the better and more caring.
I felt a bit sad for you when I read that M means nothing to you now.
I have a friend who calls M for everything and then I catch him out and I see he still loves M. (actually he left this area and last time I seen him he was wearing womens clothes and I swear to god he looked like Doris Day...Hahahahah honest)
I go only to see M now (not many local progs) but I never met anyone who gave me so much for so little in return. Serious!
Anyway all the very best to you :-)
Not, Doris Day......Joan Crawford, or Bette Davis! They are MUCH funnier and much more camp.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:24:22 (EST)
Poster: To bftb
Email: F@tuna
To: bftb
Subject: I know u like a joke B ;-) nt (Re: God bless you all)
Message:
.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:05:05 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: God bless you all
Message:
Say it aint so Joe! you don't like Doris Day!?!?
Didja ever see her in Pajama Game? Also, she was GREAT in those movies with Rock Hudson.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:14:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: God bless you all
Message:
Say it aint so Joe! you don't like Doris Day!?!?
Didja ever see her in Pajama Game? Also, she was GREAT in those movies with Rock Hudson.
No, I like Doris Day. I think she was a brilliant commedian. Actually, I watched "Touch of Mink" with Cary Grant on the AMC channel over the weekend and it was great.
And she was in a lot of those Rock Hudson "DF" films, with "DF" meaning "delayed fuck." Rock Hudson was trying to get Doris to have sex with him and she refused until the end. That was basically the whole story in many of those movies.
And my FAVORITE scene with her and Rock Hudson is one in which he pretends to be gay(unstated of course) all as part of his plan to get her into bed, and she looks so confused (great acting.) Of course it is ironic that in that scene Rock Hudson was a gay man, pretending to be a straight man pretending to be a gay man, in order to get Doris Day to have sex with him. Confusing, those Hollywood norms of the early 60s, right?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:36:23 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: To bftb
Subject: Re: I know u like a joke B ;-) nt (Re: God bless you all)
Message:
just heard this one,it's originally in greek so it may lose something in the translation:
Your honour,I request that my name be legally changed because it causes me alot of embarassment in my life.
Hizzonner:I see.What is your name?
HS:Horace Shiteater
Hizzonner:Oh my,yes...I understand.Alright then, what would you like to change your name to?
HS:Bob
badabing
O.k.;I'll stop wasting disk space now.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:49:54 (EST)
Poster: connect
Email: bb
To: Fishy, Janice, etc
Subject: to what? (Re: God bless you all)
Message:
connect inside to what?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 09:07:57 (EST)
Poster: another
Email: **
To: .
Subject: twist
Message:
Someone called me up last night and said he was going to a
program and so I knew he wanted to remind me about that he
hadn't seen me in a while so I said I would meet him at the
video.
well talk about timing.
The video was one OP was certainly at, It was washington may25 96.
OP, I don't know if you heard this stuff but it certainly
is worth listening to.
three parts I'll mention, first he talked about the internet and
said; how he feels about some things on the internet he
can say in a few words then he one word, then he said
no, two words and you cant say them at a program.
If you saw it you would know the way he said it, the two words
would be f--- you.
I tried to borrow the tape to get the exact wording of
everything but it had to go to boston.
then he said; in the middle of continueing that the internet
tells him if he should cry or not.
Then he intimates that the master knows the private
hearts of the attendees, lightly hinting of those lord like
qualities for the devotees.
Then it was right at the end and he surprised me.
below, when you see words IN BIG PRINT, that means he
REALLY, REALLY emphasized the words.
The first sentence I am not 100% sure of the wording but the next
ones I am.
'I don't know why I can not practise knowledge.
I don't know why I can not, CAN NOT accept knowledge in my life.
I dont know why I find knowledge so difficult.'
OP you MUST have heard that. Get the video.
I was annoyed during some of the video but when he said all that
my jaw dropped.
Since that time he has made many the master is beyond you type
comments and had foot kissing times,ect. But here is a
definate admission. He was NOT talking about someone else.
I know how he speaks, very much so.
The reason he is not attaining some 'state of realization'
is that it isn't there for the takeing.
The eastern idea of god realization is unattainable. If you
get something more, it is courtesy of, the bigger thing.
Maharaji does not say anything about a bigger power than him
and that is his monsterous mistake.
He is not backing away from divinity as his events of late 97
show. He is fully intending to keep pushing the hindu master
is god thing. I rooted for him for an awfully long time on
the strength of the claims he made so strongly for so long.
But the greater thing is pulling his plug and that is only
right and good.
This form of athieism is not meant to go global and lay
claim to the breath.
maharaji has run headlong into the fruitless result of
athieism and delusion. But I guess that is how it has always
been. Trent has graduated from this same eastern type
thinking and the only path that that stuff takes us to is that
we are god. Or stay devotees of anyone but the real
friend god. The only graduation for us is 'fulfillment',
and if you listen to him talk about it, it is just -being away-
from everything, for a while. This is such a headache.
I am such a huge sucker. HE is confused and I am frankly
pathetic. See anon, this is where the reality of a concious
freind can kick in, I sit back defeated and a wave of feeling
sweeps over that was in no way generated by me. A healing
feeling. Nicely timed by some smart and kind thing.
The same thing that is withholding stuff from prem rawat.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 09:31:49 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: another
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Dear *.*
I read your post several times and am still unclear about what you are trying to say about what you heard M say.
I think what you said is that M admits that he cannot practice Knowledge?
But isn't that an old line of reasoning: the Master is the perfect devotee, admits he is worthless and helpless without the grace of HIS master?
What I remember most about M's message, when I was his devotee, was that he emphasized practicing Knowledge is NOT what it's all about. It's about devotion to the Master. Practicing Knowledge is the unattainable task, the impossible job we are given to do by the Master so that we can realize we can't do anything without HIS help.
Well, that's my two cents worth of analysis, to me I guess it just sounds like his message has not changed.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 10:34:57 (EST)
Poster: twisting in
Email: bb
To: John K.
Subject: 79 (Re: twist)
Message:
Hello John
He DID speak about his father like that but that was only
in 1978. I am pretty sure that he had stopped by 79.
And I haven't heard him mention him like that since.
He did tell some stories about his father that are very
damning but he didn't see that because he thinks the
so called master can get away with beating people and
threatening people like his father did on numerous
occasions. In the last couple years he has let slip
a few comments that are revealing about himself and
his actual condition. I will get them out and line them
up for a post.
But give me a few days on that one.
Good point about him stressing that we couldn't do anything
without his help. Or rather, his grace.
'guru maharaj ji comes into this world to save it'
'And yet, sometimes thats the stupidity that bringsthe lord
to this earth. and he sees how stupid his kids are. he sees
how stupid his children are, that they have almost come
to the saturation point of thier stupidity and they are
literally going to crystalize any day in thier stupidity.'
'But what guru maharj ji has to offer to us is beyond
our idiosyncracies. It's beyond our imagination,
beyond everything. That love that guru maharaj ji
showers upon us is beyond everything we could imagine,
that we could ever think about. That gift that
guru maharj ji jas for us is such a surprise that we
could never comprehend. and every day guru maharaj ji
makes his gift bigger and bigger and bigger. every day.
every day guru maharaj ji gives us a new gift of his love
gives us a new gift of his knowledge,gives us a new
gift of that inspiration. every day guru maharj ji gives
us his grace, every single day,every single hour,
every single minute, every single second as a matter
of fact. guru maharaj ji is not saying, just go back to
your communities and do satsang service and meditation
under your blanket. this knowledge isn't given to you
and you take it and it is yours. If you have that idea,
your wrong. every single day that you get up and have an experience of this knowledge it's only by guru maharaj ji
grace, not because this knowledge belongs to you.
this experience only happens by guru maharaj ji's grace.
It's only guru maharaj ji that gives us a chance of life.
we are not human beings until we have that experience,
until we have that realization. because then we never die.
death and life go away. and what comes is a manifestation of
that immortalness, immortality-something that'll never
go away. but that experience in our life can only happen
when we have faith in guru maharaj ji, when we can
surrender to guru maharaj ji, when we can have that
love for guru maharaj ji. so premies, just look
at that, how fortunate we really are to have that grace
of guru maharaj ji. to be given a chance to be really
alive,to have a meaning to life, to even have a purpose
to life. Otherwise, what is the difference between a
person we call alive, and a person we call dead?
all engraved on a headstone. nothing.
And now, it's just so beautiful we have two more days
of satsang. But we just have to open ourselves and
and really understand what guru maharaj ji wants us to do,
what guru maharaj ji would like us to do. Instead of the
things we want to do. Because what we want to do...
(example of someone driving off a cliff almost)
...or wrecking yourself, and he takes over. Thats
exactly what guru maharaj ji does. And we have to let
guru maharaj ji take control. Let him drive.'
just a random choice.
I have to go.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:21:14 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: another
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Yes,but how come so many have felt that sweeping healing feeling in connection with M?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:28:17 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
cause he's got CHARISMA!!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 11:30:00 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: twisting in
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Wow, that's some quote. That brings it all back.
Right now I am thinking Anyone has a right to proclaim themselves to be The Master, or that whom M has proclaimed himself to be. He has a right to proclaim himself to be The Master. And if thousands believe in him...well then that's terrific, ya know? Those thousands have a right to believe in him. I mean really, who are we to say anything about what They (the masses) Do?
And, of course, We also have the right/duty/obligation/ and pleasure to proclaim Our experience following a Someone who proclaims Himself to be The Master.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
cause he's got CHARISMA!!!
...and they want to have peace and to be healed. They need something. Don't we all have a huge hole somewhere that we need filled? Sometimes someone can say all of the right words and we are hooked.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:05:13 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Right.I suppose anyone claiming a 'cure' for what is the human condition will find an audience.
On the other hand;if there actually is a loving,concsious creator behind everything(or 'the power' as bb calls it)then maybe because the seeker's sincere,it gives grace even though it knows you'll confuse the source.
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:21:47 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Right.I suppose anyone claiming a 'cure' for what is the human condition will find an audience.
On the other hand;if there actually is a loving,concsious creator behind everything(or 'the power' as bb calls it)then maybe because the seeker's sincere,it gives grace even though it knows you'll confuse the source.
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
Sure, lots of people believe strange claims....I recall people drinking poison punch, being castrated/riding on a comet, and giving all of their money to Jim Bakker. Each of those people was claiming a cure for the human condition. Sure, it happens all of the time. I never said that M wasn't sincere. I believe that he thinks he is who he says he is.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:36:53 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: VP
Subject: The Great Pumpkin (Re: twist)
Message:
Right.I suppose anyone claiming a 'cure' for what is the human condition will find an audience.
On the other hand;if there actually is a loving,concsious creator behind everything(or 'the power' as bb calls it)then maybe because the seeker's sincere,it gives grace even though it knows you'll confuse the source.
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
Sure, lots of people believe strange claims....I recall people drinking poison punch, being castrated/riding on a comet, and giving all of their money to Jim Bakker. Each of those people was claiming a cure for the human condition. Sure, it happens all of the time. I never said that M wasn't sincere. I believe that he thinks he is who he says he is.
...then again, one can be totally sincere and full of s--t at the same time. Anyone remember Linus in the great pumpkin patch in the story " It's the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown"? And to think Sally sat out there the whole time with him thinking that that pumpkin was coming to deliver goodies! Can anyone relate?
I'm not saying that Sally didn't have the free will to sit in that pumpkin patch. It was her choosing, but she still felt betrayed and angry. Especially since she missed all of the trick or treating.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:40:27 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I agree with you there;I'm also of the opinion that he's sincerely deluded,with thousands of aiders and abetters to confirm the delusion.
Wacky EV may be,but I'm also of the opinion that M will never behave like applewhite,jones or any other loony in the religion business.Deluded?probably.Insane?I don't think so.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:42:43 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: btfb
Subject: The Great Pumpkin (Re: twist)
Message:
Right.I suppose anyone claiming a 'cure' for what is the human condition will find an audience.
On the other hand;if there actually is a loving,concsious creator behind everything(or 'the power' as bb calls it)then maybe because the seeker's sincere,it gives grace even though it knows you'll confuse the source.
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
Sure, lots of people believe strange claims....I recall people drinking poison punch, being castrated/riding on a comet, and giving all of their money to Jim Bakker. Each of those people was claiming a cure for the human condition. Sure, it happens all of the time. I never said that M wasn't sincere. I believe that he thinks he is who he says he is.
...then again you can be very sincere and full of s--t at the same time. Does anyone remember Linus in the story "It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown"? And to think that Sally sat out there in that pumpkin patch with Linus all night waiting for goodies that never arrived! Can anyone relate?
This is not to say that Sally did not have free will. She chose to sit in that pumpkin patch. Nevertheless, you can imagine how hurt and betrayed she felt at being misled and especially for missing the trick-or-treating.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:49:19 (EST)
Poster: BP
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: The Great Pumpkin (Re: twist)
Message:
Sorry to double post, but I am experiencing technical difficluties...
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 14:50:41 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: The Great Pumpkin (Re: twist)
Message:
Can't remember that clearly,but it does ring a bell.
In this vein,did you ever read the dr.seuss book"I had trouble in getting to solla sallew"?If not I'd recommend it to anyone.It's a great early 'anti-looking to others for answers' allegory(imo),a classic!
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:04:34 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Dr. Seuss (Re: twist)
Message:
Can't remember that clearly,but it does ring a bell.
In this vein,did you ever read the dr.seuss book'I had trouble in getting to solla sallew'?If not I'd recommend it to anyone.It's a great early 'anti-looking to others for answers' allegory(imo),a classic!
Yes, that is a great book. I also love the book, "Oh, the places you'll go" by Dr. Seuss. It is a great simple look at life. I recommend that book to anyone as well.
I am also curious about the newsgroups as I couldn't get in either.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:09:48 (EST)
Poster: jim boeger
Email: sfjim@hotmail.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I agree with you there;I'm also of the opinion that he's sincerely deluded,with thousands of aiders and abetters to confirm the delusion.
Wacky EV may be,but I'm also of the opinion that M will never behave like applewhite,jones or any other loony in the religion business.Deluded?probably.Insane?I don't think so.
hey..jim boeger here in san francisco. i learned the techniques from M. Fakiranand in 1971 and saw Maharaji in India a few weeks later. i'm not convinced he's deluded. at the same time i would have to say i'm not convinced he's "Satguru", but there does seem to be a good deal of evidence pointing that direction.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:20:46 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: jim boeger
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
What evidence would that be?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:29:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I agree with you there;I'm also of the opinion that he's sincerely deluded,with thousands of aiders and abetters to confirm the delusion.
Wacky EV may be,but I'm also of the opinion that M will never behave like applewhite,jones or any other loony in the religion business.Deluded?probably.Insane?I don't think so.
Yes, I agree he is sometimes sincere in believing he is god, and that he is also deluded. But I also think there have been times when he doubted that he was god, and had some realization he WAS deluded. I personally think he can get really pissed off during those periods, get very depressed, perhaps drink to excess. But then a big program where thousands kiss his feet, or a new plane or something, raises his spirits.
Moreoever, M suffers from living in what some economists call a "culture of deference." Since everyone around him constantly tells hiim how wonderful he is, and NEVER would have the gall to tell him he is full of shit on even the smallest of issues, he tends to see the world and himself wearing blinders, and it only reinforces his delusions. That's why I think Maharaji is so out of touch with the way real people, in the real world, live. He has been treated as and worshipped as god since he was a child and never hears a discouraging word from anyone around him. He is so insulated that his delusions tend to be unquestioned.
But, I think he does realize sometimes, that things haven't gone as well as they might. I mean at the rate he's going, he'll be lucky to not lose more devotees than he can get people to become devotees. I mean fewer people come to programs in the west than did 15 years ago, and propogation in the west at least moves at a glacial pace. He can't even use the media and he is always short of money. I mean, if he IS god, how come things are so fucked up? No wonder he goes on those ranting tirades we have all heard about.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:48:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: jim boeger
Subject: Re: twist (& hello to jim b) (Re: twist)
Message:
hey..jim boeger here in san francisco. i learned the techniques from M. Fakiranand in 1971 and saw Maharaji in India a few weeks later. i'm not convinced he's deluded. at the same time i would have to say i'm not convinced he's 'Satguru', but there does seem to be a good deal of evidence pointing that direction.
Hi Jim - I remember you from the premie.org guestbook cause of your slightly irreverent (e.g. humourous) postings. Glad you found your way over here even though we probably disagree about quite a few things concerning DLM, EV, and Maharaji.
I know someone else asked this already, but what makes you think that GMJ might be the "Satguru"? I always took the word "satguru" to mean the current incarnation of god on the planet - is this what you think it means as well? If so, I'm curious to know what evidence there is that GMJ is the one.
Katie
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:08:31 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: jim boeger
Subject: Evidence (Re: twist)
Message:
Hi, jim! Please go on about this " good deal of evidence." Sincerely, Virtual Premie
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
While you're entranced,and a true believer,even when obvious disfunction is right in your face you tend to rationalize it.Eg:I remember a practice session with M where the audience(while he was still backstage)started clapping and chanting "maharaji,Maharaji,Maharaji...."much in the same way that a crowd at a rock concert would chant the name of the performer they're waiting for.What does M do?He blazes onto the stage and boy is he pissed!He starts berating the crowd for not having patience and for chanting his name in what he interpreted to be in a way that the crowd was demanding he hurry up and start the session.He starts sarcastically and angrily saying(after mimicking the chanting and clapping)"Should we hurry up?Do you have someplace better to be?"(although probably not the exact words(this is from memory-there will definately never be a video of that tirade available)Then he begrudgingly and very angrily says something like "O.K.,start with the first technique" or "I guess we should start"and then leaves the stage in a huff.
I thought to myself that this was unbelievably fucked up but I rationalized it because I hadn't been clapping and chanting his name,so surely he wasn't pissed at me.Can you believe that rationalization?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:34:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: another
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Someone called me up last night and said he was going to a
program and so I knew he wanted to remind me about that he
hadn't seen me in a while so I said I would meet him at the
video.
well talk about timing.
The video was one OP was certainly at, It was washington may25 96.
OP, I don't know if you heard this stuff but it certainly
is worth listening to.
three parts I'll mention, first he talked about the internet and
said; how he feels about some things on the internet he
can say in a few words then he one word, then he said
no, two words and you cant say them at a program.
If you saw it you would know the way he said it, the two words
would be f--- you.
I tried to borrow the tape to get the exact wording of
everything but it had to go to boston.
Wrong analysis. What he meant was BULL and SHIT.
So, that's what he thinks of the Mishler interview and all the rest of the crap!
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:40:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: another
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
(blah, blah, blah,...)
See anon, this is where the reality of a concious
freind can kick in, I sit back defeated and a wave of feeling
sweeps over that was in no way generated by me. A healing
feeling. Nicely timed by some smart and kind thing.
The same thing that is withholding stuff from prem rawat.
Look, bubbie, God loves us ALL, and he does not withold anything from Prem Rawat that he bestows on all of us. No favors has He. The sun shineth alike on all.
So you want to be the one to whisper in God's ear and tell Him who is worthy of His Grace, and who isn't?
You're weird, man.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:54:06 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Mili dahling:
What's mili short for? militant?
Why do you come here if you hate it so much?
I can't imagine reading the stuff on this page if I felt the way you do about it. Doesn't it drive you crazy? Don't you just feel like screaming curse words at all of us? What difference does it make what two words M was thinking?
Don't you have videos you can go see, instead of being tormented by us?
Is that enough questions, or do you want some more?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:55:12 (EST)
Poster: never can tell
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Someone called me up last night and said he was going to a
program and so I knew he wanted to remind me about that he
hadn't seen me in a while so I said I would meet him at the
video.
well talk about timing.
The video was one OP was certainly at, It was washington may25 96.
OP, I don't know if you heard this stuff but it certainly
is worth listening to.
three parts I'll mention, first he talked about the internet and
said; how he feels about some things on the internet he
can say in a few words then he one word, then he said
no, two words and you cant say them at a program.
If you saw it you would know the way he said it, the two words
would be f--- you.
I tried to borrow the tape to get the exact wording of
everything but it had to go to boston.
Wrong analysis. What he meant was BULL and SHIT.
So, that's what he thinks of the Mishler interview and all the rest of the crap!
Semantics. It still isn't very eloquent or enlightened for a Satguru.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:21:34 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: twist (& hello to jim b) (Re: twist)
Message:
hey..jim boeger here in san francisco. i learned the techniques from M. Fakiranand in 1971 and saw Maharaji in India a few weeks later. i'm not convinced he's deluded. at the same time i would have to say i'm not convinced he's 'Satguru', but there does seem to be a good deal of evidence pointing that direction.
Hi Jim - I remember you from the premie.org guestbook cause of your slightly irreverent (e.g. humourous) postings. Glad you found your way over here even though we probably disagree about quite a few things concerning DLM, EV, and Maharaji.
I know someone else asked this already, but what makes you think that GMJ might be the 'Satguru'? I always took the word 'satguru' to mean the current incarnation of god on the planet - is this what you think it means as well? If so, I'm curious to know what evidence there is that GMJ is the one.
Katie
Katie,
Another question that you all probably know the answer to. What ever happened to premie.org.? VP
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 17:26:47 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Wow, that's wild! Although if you read about spiritual masters, it's very common for them to make fun of their disciples, and to be very harsh on them. It does sound like a pretty lame thing to do, clapping and chanting his name as if a meditation practice session is a rock concert type event, you know what I mean? So, I can see why M would be upset.
Oh, bftb, I am curious, you have been to a knowledge review with M, right? Did you learn anything new? Does he allow time for questions, or doesn't he encourage questions?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 18:32:10 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I received knowledge once.I never had a review so I really can't answer your questions.By the way I also thought the behavior was very lame(that's why I wasn't partaking)but the reaction was scary and imo bordered on abuse.
If it's a part of spiritual tradition that teachers make fun of their students;do these same teachers allow the students to make fun back?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:12:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
While you're entranced,and a true believer,even when obvious disfunction is right in your face you tend to rationalize it.Eg:I remember a practice session with M where the audience(while he was still backstage)started clapping and chanting 'maharaji,Maharaji,Maharaji....'much in the same way that a crowd at a rock concert would chant the name of the performer they're waiting for.What does M do?He blazes onto the stage and boy is he pissed!He starts berating the crowd for not having patience and for chanting his name in what he interpreted to be in a way that the crowd was demanding he hurry up and start the session.He starts sarcastically and angrily saying(after mimicking the chanting and clapping)'Should we hurry up?Do you have someplace better to be?'(although probably not the exact words(this is from memory-there will definately never be a video of that tirade available)Then he begrudgingly and very angrily says something like 'O.K.,start with the first technique' or 'I guess we should start'and then leaves the stage in a huff.
I thought to myself that this was unbelievably fucked up but I rationalized it because I hadn't been clapping and chanting his name,so surely he wasn't pissed at me.Can you believe that rationalization?
By "practice session" do you mean a knowledge session, or a knowledge review session, or was it something else?
Amazing story. I can recall Maharaji screaming and yelling for reasons I simply could not understand. I remember one time in Miami in 1979, he was talking with some coordinators of the upcomong Hans Jayanti festival how he wanted the stage to be. The premies had prepared drawings and a mock-up of the stage and Maharaji just hated it, but he wouldn't say WHAT he hated, nor HOW he wanted it different, he just wanted it different. I recall how frustrated the coordinators were and I recall how grateful I was not to be one of them. The premies kept suggesting changes to the stage that he might like better, but that just seemed to make him angrier. Finally, one premie just said that he was trying to surrender to him so that what he did would really serve Maharaji and he apologized for being in his mind. That didn't seem to help. Maharaji just stormed out of the room, really pissed, and the premies were just left, shaking in their boots, with re-designing the stage with no more indication from Maharaji as to what he didn't like about the first stage, except that he didn't like it. It was so frustrating for them. There was no pleasing him, there was no right answer. So, the premies stayed up day and night and re-designed the stage. I wasn't around to see if M liked that stage any better. I also rationalized this as all being his divine lila, and a play he was doing to help the premies surrender. Now I think he was just frustrated and pissed off, who knows for what reason, and premies were easy people to take it out on because they would never tell him to fuck off and that he was full of shit, they would just take it and keep coming back for more of his shit. They were completely defenseless and vulnerable. Very, very abusive and very, very sick.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:32:11 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I meant a practicing of knowledge session for people who had already received K.Not a review.My experience of a session was that M would talk some at the beginning,then say something like:"I guess we should start,o.k.,first technique",he'd go backstage,the lights would dim, then we'd all do the first technique and after 15 minutes a voice other then M's would softly say over the p.a."2nd technique" and like that it went until it was done.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
I meant a practicing of knowledge session for people who had already received K.Not a review.My experience of a session was that M would talk some at the beginning,then say something like:'I guess we should start,o.k.,first technique',he'd go backstage,the lights would dim, then we'd all do the first technique and after 15 minutes a voice other then M's would softly say over the p.a.'2nd technique' and like that it went until it was done.
That's a new one to me. I recall knowledge sessions, and knowledge review sessions, but I had never heard of "practicing of knowledge sessions." Did these happen often, and what was the purpose? Could you ask Maharaji questions about the techniques? How did you get into one of those sessions? How many people were in them? Do they still occur?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:09:25 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
While you're entranced,and a true believer,even when obvious disfunction is right in your face you tend to rationalize it.Eg:I remember a practice session with M where the audience(while he was still backstage)started clapping and chanting 'maharaji,Maharaji,Maharaji....'much in the same way that a crowd at a rock concert would chant the name of the performer they're waiting for.What does M do?He blazes onto the stage and boy is he pissed!He starts berating the crowd for not having patience and for chanting his name in what he interpreted to be in a way that the crowd was demanding he hurry up and start the session.He starts sarcastically and angrily saying(after mimicking the chanting and clapping)'Should we hurry up?Do you have someplace better to be?'(although probably not the exact words(this is from memory-there will definately never be a video of that tirade available)Then he begrudgingly and very angrily says something like 'O.K.,start with the first technique' or 'I guess we should start'and then leaves the stage in a huff.
I thought to myself that this was unbelievably fucked up but I rationalized it because I hadn't been clapping and chanting his name,so surely he wasn't pissed at me.Can you believe that rationalization?
By 'practice session' do you mean a knowledge session, or a knowledge review session, or was it something else?
Amazing story. I can recall Maharaji screaming and yelling for reasons I simply could not understand. I remember one time in Miami in 1979, he was talking with some coordinators of the upcomong Hans Jayanti festival how he wanted the stage to be. The premies had prepared drawings and a mock-up of the stage and Maharaji just hated it, but he wouldn't say WHAT he hated, nor HOW he wanted it different, he just wanted it different. I recall how frustrated the coordinators were and I recall how grateful I was not to be one of them. The premies kept suggesting changes to the stage that he might like better, but that just seemed to make him angrier. Finally, one premie just said that he was trying to surrender to him so that what he did would really serve Maharaji and he apologized for being in his mind. That didn't seem to help. Maharaji just stormed out of the room, really pissed, and the premies were just left, shaking in their boots, with re-designing the stage with no more indication from Maharaji as to what he didn't like about the first stage, except that he didn't like it. It was so frustrating for them. There was no pleasing him, there was no right answer. So, the premies stayed up day and night and re-designed the stage. I wasn't around to see if M liked that stage any better. I also rationalized this as all being his divine lila, and a play he was doing to help the premies surrender. Now I think he was just frustrated and pissed off, who knows for what reason, and premies were easy people to take it out on because they would never tell him to fuck off and that he was full of shit, they would just take it and keep coming back for more of his shit. They were completely defenseless and vulnerable. Very, very abusive and very, very sick.
These stories are so interersting for me to hear. I never heard anything negative about M-no ranting or tirade stories from my premie family members. I guess that maybe M gets sick of having all these people slobbering over him and agreeing with him all of the time. That would get very dull after a while. That doesn't excuse that type of behavior. That is a horrible way to treat anyone, let alone people who are working for you or trying to help you. I wouldn't have been a very good premie. I would have told him that if he couldn't help me with any contructive comments to fix it his own damn self.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:26:42 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
The 'practicing of K session' was just my way of saying that it wasn't a review,most likely it's what you're calling a 'knowledge session'(unless by k session you mean where M reveals K to you for the first time)I don't know how often they happened,but the one I'm referring to was at an event in west palm beach,fl.'90.The 'purpose' I suppose was for hundreds of premies to practice together at the same time with M being very close by.At this one that I was at,there were no questions.M did not say"o.k.,1st technique"and then show it;he just said it and then went backstage.After that the p.a. voice took it from there.You got in by someone at the door recognizing you and knowing that you had K or if they didn't know you then someone they did know who knew you would verify it and they'd let you in.
off topic:The s.f. program that you walked out of,were you by any chance sitting alone a few rows from the stage on the left side?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:26:56 (EST)
Poster: Stephen B
Email: cipi@tde.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Yes,but how come so many have felt that sweeping healing feeling in connection with M?
Projection
I comes from us.
:)
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:09:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist the stage (Re: twist)
Message:
Amazing story. I can recall Maharaji screaming and yelling for reasons I simply could not understand. I remember one time in Miami in 1979, he was talking with some coordinators of the upcomong Hans Jayanti festival how he wanted the stage to be. The premies had prepared drawings and a mock-up of the stage and Maharaji just hated it, but he wouldn't say WHAT he hated, nor HOW he wanted it different, he just wanted it different. I recall how frustrated the coordinators were and I recall how grateful I was not to be one of them. The premies kept suggesting changes to the stage that he might like better, but that just seemed to make him angrier. Finally, one premie just said that he was trying to surrender to him so that what he did would really serve Maharaji and he apologized for being in his mind. That didn't seem to help. Maharaji just stormed out of the room, really pissed, and the premies were just left, shaking in their boots, with re-designing the stage with no more indication from Maharaji as to what he didn't like about the first stage, except that he didn't like it. It was so frustrating for them. There was no pleasing him, there was no right answer. So, the premies stayed up day and night and re-designed the stage. I wasn't around to see if M liked that stage any better. I also rationalized this as all being his divine lila, and a play he was doing to help the premies surrender. Now I think he was just frustrated and pissed off, who knows for what reason, and premies were easy people to take it out on because they would never tell him to fuck off and that he was full of shit, they would just take it and keep coming back for more of his shit. They were completely defenseless and vulnerable. Very, very abusive and very, very sick.
The story about wanting the stage changed but refusing to say how he wanted it changed just reminds me so much of alcoholic behaviour. I am speaking from personal experience - it's exactly the kind of thing that my mom would do. She even did it while sober. It's like "I don't like something that you're doing, and you better stop, but you ought to know what you're doing wrong without me telling you!". My mom used to do this to me and my siblings when she would get mad about a totally different situation that she couldn't control. If you have read books about children of alcholics it's a fairly familiar behavior pattern.
It's kind of sad really. I wonder what made him so angry - I am sure it was not the stage - and what he REALLY wanted.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:16:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: premie.org (Re: twist)
Message:
Katie,
Another question that you all probably know the answer to. What ever happened to premie.org.? VP
As far as I know, it got shut down by PAM (a made up acronym for the ubiquitous "People Around Maharaji", who do things that Maharaji prefers not to do himself. These people are also sometimes referred to as SPAM.)
Anyway, for more of the Story, read "Calling All Premies" at:
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/calling.htm
(I still haven't learned to make links.)
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:58:10 (EST)
Poster: orange
Email: **
To: Mili
Subject: twist (Re: twist)
Message:
Someone called me up last night and said he was going to a
program and so I knew he wanted to remind me about that he
hadn't seen me in a while so I said I would meet him at the
video.
well talk about timing.
The video was one OP was certainly at, It was washington may25 96.
OP, I don't know if you heard this stuff but it certainly
is worth listening to.
three parts I'll mention, first he talked about the internet and
said; how he feels about some things on the internet he
can say in a few words then he one word, then he said
no, two words and you cant say them at a program.
If you saw it you would know the way he said it, the two words
would be f--- you.
I tried to borrow the tape to get the exact wording of
everything but it had to go to boston.
Wrong analysis. What he meant was BULL and SHIT.
So, that's what he thinks of the Mishler interview and all the rest of the crap!
Ok, I'll grant you that one.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:21:55 (EST)
Poster: recognition
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: of what? (Re: twist)
Message:
(blah, blah, blah,...)
See anon, this is where the reality of a concious
freind can kick in, I sit back defeated and a wave of feeling
sweeps over that was in no way generated by me. A healing
feeling. Nicely timed by some smart and kind thing.
The same thing that is withholding stuff from prem rawat.
Look, bubbie, God loves us ALL, and he does not withold anything from Prem Rawat that he bestows on all of us. No favors has He. The sun shineth alike on all.
So you want to be the one to whisper in God's ear and tell Him who is worthy of His Grace, and who isn't?
You're weird, man.
there are consequences in life.
and they extend to the feelings and experience you have
when you are doing things and even contemplateing them.
Either there is a constant gaurdian helping out, or there
is a system in place that takes care of that stuff,
either way, look at the eyes and ways of some of the more
murderous types in your environment. They have consequences
for thier way of thinking and thier deeds. They may not
seem like anything is amiss to you, but look again.
The evidence is there. Next time you are out on the street
look at all the eyes that walk by, listen to how the
judgemental and mean ones talk, see thier crippled
spirit, thier damaged psyche, their distance from the
easy happiness that is possible. Their distance from the
power, thier separation from good, just look at the
alchoholics, the repercussions they have from drinking
are just huge. The god tries to help us when we are
trapped by little indicators, how you feel, how much
can you ignore the emptyness inside until you finally
hit bottom and turn a corner, even if we see maharaji as
a do gooder who sees things a certain way, the power
looks at what direction you are going in, not how long you
have walked. He would not have such a long track record
of self-admitted anger and other things if he was not
doing something wrong, it is the warning signals, it is
the alert buttons, the mercy of the god to provide some
clues by having our behavior tied to our experience.
The sun IS always shining but the reality of human design
is that we block the good stuff by our perceptions,
actions, and wants. Some call it sin. No one escapes
just because of a dogma. All the sunshine ideas and the
eastern realized soul talk doesn't change the reality
of the way life is. He would admit that he learns some
things because the experience he has, and the reactions he
gets from others, and they are by no means all good.
From listening to him it is more than apparent that he
goes through hell. But he is tied to the whipping post
by certain things and he either has to let them go or
he will never be free during this life. Just closeing
your eyes and -being away - from things for a while
is no escape and is not the solution. The only door
is one of recognition. Recognition of what?
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:32:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: deja news (Re: twist)
Message:
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
I don't know why, but I have written to Deja News to ask. Alt.cult.maharaji is still alive and well on my other newsreader (Altopia) If you have a chance, could you please write Deja News and tell them that you've had problems too.
Their e-mail address is:
comment@dejanews.com
Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 22:56:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
The 'practicing of K session' was just my way of saying that it wasn't a review,most likely it's what you're calling a 'knowledge session'(unless by k session you mean where M reveals K to you for the first time)I don't know how often they happened,but the one I'm referring to was at an event in west palm beach,fl.'90.The 'purpose' I suppose was for hundreds of premies to practice together at the same time with M being very close by.At this one that I was at,there were no questions.M did not say'o.k.,1st technique'and then show it;he just said it and then went backstage.After that the p.a. voice took it from there.You got in by someone at the door recognizing you and knowing that you had K or if they didn't know you then someone they did know who knew you would verify it and they'd let you in.
off topic:The s.f. program that you walked out of,were you by any chance sitting alone a few rows from the stage on the left side?
I'm not sure if I understand the point of that "session." Maybe it was an attempt by M to try to make it look like meditation was the central part of his trip, which it hadn't been. Devotion had been the central part of his trip.
This is like the Twilight Zone. If you were facing the stage, I was sitting in the fourth or fifth row on the left side of the hall at that program in SF in 1990, that I walked out of in the middle of M's offensive speech. I can even recall what I was wearing. I had walked straight from my office on Montgomery Street so I was wearing a double-breasted business suit. If you can recall me walking out you have quite a memory.
JW
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:17:53 (EST)
Poster: Shake it up baby
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: The Beatles
Subject: Twist & Shout (Re: twist)
Message:
Sorry. I just wanted to get that in before the thread ended.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 23:27:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Shake it up baby
Subject: Re: Twist & Shout (Re: twist)
Message:
Sorry. I just wanted to get that in before the thread ended.
Me too, David! Thanks!
I was trying to decide between "Twist and Shout" and "Twisting by the Pool". "Twist and Shout" is the classic, but "Twisting by the Pool" is SO perfect for Maharaji!
Anyway, thanks again.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:02:49 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: burke
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Hi Burke:
I'm responding mostly because I feel compelled here. When I first saw this thread I ranted a while, and it's a good thing I didn't answer right away, or you might have thought Mili a saint compared to the way I reacted.
All the fire's out now, and I'll try to keep it to the facts.
First, about the internet, here's the direct quote (I'm citing exactly, with incomplete sentences and all, so that there can be no accusation that I left out something crucial):
<<...people tell jokes about the President and the Vice President. And people tell jokes about lawyers, and people tell jokes about the doctors. And we look for heroes, people who have done something worthwhile.
And do the issues ever change? No . Now, the internet comes along and people talk about the internet. I can talk about the internet in a very few words. I can, in fact, even boil it down to one. Clarification purposes, two are enough, two words. And so, what's going to happen? No, I'm not going to use those worsd. I can't. I can't use those words at an event. That would not be appropriate.>>
Then he goes on to talk about the 'grand illusion' people get involved in trying to buy happiness - getting a dress, a new hairstyle, a new face - etc. 'Information highway - more like a traffic jam'
He wasn't talking about you, or about the ex forum. He wasn't talking TO you - you weren't there. And the words were simply 'bull shit' - still not acceptable in polite company.
As for the second one:
'I don't know why I can not practise knowledge.
I don't know why I can not, CAN NOT accept knowledge in my life.
I dont know why I find knowledge so difficult.'
OP you MUST have heard that. Get the video.
Here, he had been talking about a bird that made a nest in a plastic tree that had been set up near his office. How at first he was thinking - what a stupid bird, making a nest in a fake tree. and then he realized that the bird simply wanted to be near him (another living being).
Here's the direct quote:
<>
Then he talks about the new baby birds in the nest, and how they beg him for food.
<>
So who do you think he was speaking for? Himself? Or making an analogy, as he so often does, as he has for thirty years, when he puts himself in 1st person - the role of the student. Tell me you've never done that, speaking with your kids.
I've mentioned to you before - you take everything so literally that either you can't see shades of meaning, or you bullshit yourself into hearing what you want to hear. Here he obviously, and very quickly, reverted back into "can't you..."
As for your third item:
The same thing that is withholding stuff from prem rawat
You have no idea how much grace Prempal Rawat experiences, just as you have no idea how much grace JW, or Joy, or bftb or I experience. And I have no idea how much grace you experience.
But I feel I CAN say that you seem to listen with a half, a quarter of an ear, through layers and layers of filters of your own concoction.
I don't doubt that for years you were a major follower. At that time, you were listening through another set of filters. What I do doubt is that you EVER heard what he is really saying, because you seem to have a preconceived idea of where and what it's supposed to be - and you never waver from that.
Then, to top it off, you get John K completely confused by your reinterpretation of M's words:
John K. says But isn't that an old line of reasoning: the Master is the perfect devotee, admits he is worthless and helpless without the grace of HIS master?
What I remember most about M's message, when I was his devotee, was that
he emphasized practicing Knowledge is NOT what it's all about. It's about devotion to the Master. Practicing Knowledge is the unattainable task, the impossible job we are given to do by the Master so that we can realize we can't do anything without HIS help.
No. Not at all. What M was saying is you make YOUR effort. The master reminds you of a promise you made to yourself - that's what he was talking about. A long time ago you made a promise to yourself to find the truth. To find peace and satisfaction in your life. To find your connection to the spirit. However you worded it. And for many of us, life got complicated from then on. And the master simply reminds us of your own contract with ourselves. And when we get lazy and start letting go of that thing we felt WAS that important to us, he reminds us again. That was the point of what he was saying.
As for the long devotional quote you posted later on in this thread - that's M speaking to his master. Yes, he used to talk a lot in that terminology. It still inspires me, actually. But we're growing up, and M doesn't talk about the baby keeping a hold on daddy's hand these days. He speaks about taking responsibility, about learning to work together.
It's fun looking at the old albums, but if you keep offering your ten-year-old a pacifier when she's crying about a romantic crush, well...
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 04:13:58 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
whoops. Something got lost in the translation, as it were.
Try second quote again:
It [the bird] took all the differences and put it aside. And it took the opportunity. And it succeeded, and it's and it's protected.
Can I also put aside all my differences? All my little rules of why I CANNOT be happy? All my little rules of how, and why I CANNOT, CANNOT accept Knowledge in my life? And all my little idiotic ideas of how Knowledge is so difficult, and accept the opportunity?
Then he talks about the new baby birds in the nest, and how they beg him for food.
they put their differences aside, too. So can't you? Can't you?..
So who do you think he was speaking for? Himself? Or making an analogy, as he so often does, as he has for thirty years, when he puts himself in 1st person - the role of the student. Tell me you've never done that, speaking with your kids.
I've mentioned to you before - you take everything so literally that either you can't see shades of meaning, or you bullshit yourself into hearing what you want to hear. Here he obviously, and very quickly, reverted back into 'can't you...'
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 09:39:25 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Don't know how good my memory is because I didn't remember the double breasted business suit.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 10:18:55 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
So like the baby birds the student must become a beggar.The beggar analogy was a big one for him,and I suppose he feels himself to be a beggar as well,although I'm sure you understand that when outsiders hear the beggar analogy it freaks them right out.
I agree with alot of what you say here;some things taken too literally or out of context can appear very strange and far from its originally intended meaning.
Gotta say;I'm surprised(no facetiousness here,I really mean this)he's willing to right off the net like that.He always seemed like a worldly guy who liked all kinds of learning(especially about the microcosmos of the insect world)and I can't believe he wouldn't love the net.Personally,I find the net to be the most incredible tool for learning...etc that I can't even put it into words;it's almost infinite.
Off topic:Why doesn't M bestow a little shot of love/grace upon some ex's?If he is who so many think he is then where is the compassion?How could he be less compassionate then I am?If I were the master and really capable of dispensing a beautiful experience at will,I'd 'feel the pain' and melt it away with a heavy dose of my love.Why let my kids suffer?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 13:36:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
OP, did M elaborate as to why he hates the internet so much? I mean, it's a pretty benign thing if you ask me, and, like anything else, it's what you make of it. Do you think maybe Maharaji hasn't really tried to see the positive in something and has instead written it off without giving it a chance? Perhaps he is being a little closed minded here, and then again, given his stated purpose, why is he even talking about the internet? What does that have to do with what he is supposedly about, and why does he care?
Secondly, everything anyone says is open to interpretation, and I think Burke's interpretation of what M says is every bit as valid as yours. And there is nothing wrong with taking things literally, if you ask me. I frankly think NOT taking things literally is just as dangerous in allowing one to, as you say, "hear what you want to hear" by putting an appropriate interpretation or "spin" on it that fits with preconceived programming.
I frankly find your criticism of Burke's interpretation pretentious and condescending, especially your gratuitous, and unfounded judgment that you doubt Burke "EVER heard what he (maharaji) is really saying." Where you do get off, sister? Who the hell do you think you are speaking from such spiritual ego? And why are you continually on Burke's case? I've never heard Burke or anyone else criticize your interpretation of things. I mean, we might disagree, but I think we've all been able to accept YOUR interpretation at face value, even if it is very different from our own.
I think even you in your own programming as to Maharaji would say M speaks to people as individuals and even in that way of thinking what Burke hears may well be completely valid for him. Stop trying to make him think like you do.
Finally, I ask again. If what you read here makes you "rant" maybe you should, it might be good for you. But then again, if what you read here upsets you, and I think it might given that you "love" M, why on earth do you hang around here?
JW
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:19:32 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: deja news (Re: twist)
Message:
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
I don't know why, but I have written to Deja News to ask. Alt.cult.maharaji is still alive and well on my other newsreader (Altopia) If you have a chance, could you please write Deja News and tell them that you've had problems too.
Their e-mail address is:
comment@dejanews.com
Thanks,
Katie
will do.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 18:53:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: more about deja news (Re: twist)
Message:
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
I don't know why, but I have written to Deja News to ask. Alt.cult.maharaji is still alive and well on my other newsreader (Altopia) If you have a chance, could you please write Deja News and tell them that you've had problems too.
Their e-mail address is:
comment@dejanews.com
Thanks,
Katie
will do.
Thanks, VP,
I just figured out that if you want to read alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News (even though they say they don't have it), go to:
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/ngrp_hlp.htm
and go to the bottom of the page. There is a link that connects you directly with the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup ON Deja News. There haven't been many people posting on the newsgroup since the forum started up again, but there are a few.
Don't ask me why Deja News "thinks" the newsgroup doesn't exist...
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:39:02 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: twist the stage (Re: twist)
Message:
Amazing story. I can recall Maharaji screaming and yelling for reasons I simply could not understand. I remember one time in Miami in 1979, he was talking with some coordinators of the upcomong Hans Jayanti festival how he wanted the stage to be. The premies had prepared drawings and a mock-up of the stage and Maharaji just hated it, but he wouldn't say WHAT he hated, nor HOW he wanted it different, he just wanted it different. I recall how frustrated the coordinators were and I recall how grateful I was not to be one of them. The premies kept suggesting changes to the stage that he might like better, but that just seemed to make him angrier. Finally, one premie just said that he was trying to surrender to him so that what he did would really serve Maharaji and he apologized for being in his mind. That didn't seem to help. Maharaji just stormed out of the room, really pissed, and the premies were just left, shaking in their boots, with re-designing the stage with no more indication from Maharaji as to what he didn't like about the first stage, except that he didn't like it. It was so frustrating for them. There was no pleasing him, there was no right answer. So, the premies stayed up day and night and re-designed the stage. I wasn't around to see if M liked that stage any better. I also rationalized this as all being his divine lila, and a play he was doing to help the premies surrender. Now I think he was just frustrated and pissed off, who knows for what reason, and premies were easy people to take it out on because they would never tell him to fuck off and that he was full of shit, they would just take it and keep coming back for more of his shit. They were completely defenseless and vulnerable. Very, very abusive and very, very sick.
The story about wanting the stage changed but refusing to say how he wanted it changed just reminds me so much of alcoholic behaviour. I am speaking from personal experience - it's exactly the kind of thing that my mom would do. She even did it while sober. It's like 'I don't like something that you're doing, and you better stop, but you ought to know what you're doing wrong without me telling you!'. My mom used to do this to me and my siblings when she would get mad about a totally different situation that she couldn't control. If you have read books about children of alcholics it's a fairly familiar behavior pattern.
It's kind of sad really. I wonder what made him so angry - I am sure it was not the stage - and what he REALLY wanted.
Very interesting. I always have an intense reaction to this kind of behavior, which, in DLM, I saw Maharaji do, and that's certainly what David Smith did in his inquisition. It was as if the point was not to be constructive, the point was just to be abusive. And the really sick part was that Maharaji turned us into willing masochists when it came to that. We were supposed to surrender to him and whatever happened to us was perfect. All we could do was pray that we might understand what supreme lesson he was trying to teach us. It was humiliating, and putting up with that kind of behavior is one of my greatest resentments about my time in the cult. I saw a lot of abuse dropped on people unable to defend themselves because they were in the master-devotee relationship, and NOT as the master.
I don't recall this type of behavior with my parents, but I can recall it with some of the nuns who taught me in school. They were pretty frustrated, miserable, people, and there was a certain reverence towards them that both the students, and my parents were supposed to have. So, you couldn't really confront them directly. And sometimes, their behavior was just abusive, not really for any other purpose.
I can also recall girlfriends I had in high school (yes, I did have them) who would get angry at me but not tell me why. They would sometimes say, "if you don't know, then I am not going to tell you." That used to drive me bananas. I don't want to sound sexist, but of all the men I've dated, not one has ever pulled that game on me even once. Is this behavior that just certain women and perfect masters do?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 19:54:23 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
Don't know how good my memory is because I didn't remember the double breasted business suit.
Well, maybe MY memory isn't so great. Maybe I was wearing some other kind of a suit. But I do recall walking over from the office to the SF Marriott, which had just been built (on Howard Street). In fact, it was Joy, who called me up and said I HAD to go to the program, because she had just gone to one in Vancouver and found it a real hoot!
I didn't find it such a hoot. I found it kind of disgusting. Maharaji said almost nothing and when he started talking about how stupid people "in the world" are, I found it offensive and I left. It felt great.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:18:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: twist
Message:
These stories are so interersting for me to hear. I never heard anything negative about M-no ranting or tirade stories from my premie family members. I guess that maybe M gets sick of having all these people slobbering over him and agreeing with him all of the time. That would get very dull after a while. That doesn't excuse that type of behavior. That is a horrible way to treat anyone, let alone people who are working for you or trying to help you. I wouldn't have been a very good premie. I would have told him that if he couldn't help me with any contructive comments to fix it his own damn self.
Well, since 99% of premies never spent time around M except at programs, I doubt they would know much about this stuff, except maybe from premies who witnessed those events, and they are unlikely to say anything unflattering about him.
It really might not be Maharaji who is so sick, it's the situation that is sick. The idea that one human being, because of what people who have never even met him believe him to be, is not required to live up to the same standards of decency we would expect from anyone else. Especially someone who is supposed to be "loving" and spiritually evolved. I don't think M is an evil person. But I do think he is lacking in the integrity department.
And I don't care if Maharaji gets pissed off. I care that he can direct his wrath at people who can't stand up for themselves. That is the inherent problem with the master-devotee relationship. And the worst part, is that the relationship isn't even necessary. If he wanted to be a meditation instructor, only, he could be, although he might have to reduce his standard of living if he did. It's all his choice to hold himself out as "the Master" and expect people to devote to him and to finance his lavish lifestyle. That's his choice. But it is also regrettable that there are apparently people who fall into that trap.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:34:21 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Deja news (Re: twist)
Message:
off topic:does anyone know why when you try to go to alt.cult.maharaji on deja news it tells you that the newsgroup doesn't exist?
I don't know why, but I have written to Deja News to ask. Alt.cult.maharaji is still alive and well on my other newsreader (Altopia) If you have a chance, could you please write Deja News and tell them that you've had problems too.
Their e-mail address is:
comment@dejanews.com
Thanks,
Katie
will do.
Thanks, VP,
I just figured out that if you want to read alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News (even though they say they don't have it), go to:
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/ngrp_hlp.htm
and go to the bottom of the page. There is a link that connects you directly with the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup ON Deja News. There haven't been many people posting on the newsgroup since the forum started up again, but there are a few.
Don't ask me why Deja News 'thinks' the newsgroup doesn't exist...
Katie,
Thanks! Duhhh! I can't get into the newsgroup because of my ISP (which is new, small, and local) I'll have to contact them about this.
Off subject, do you think that M ever reads the stuff that is posted here? Has anyone heard that he has been on this site?
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:39:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: twist the stage (Re: twist)
Message:
I can also recall girlfriends I had in high school (yes, I did have them) who would get angry at me but not tell me why. They would sometimes say, 'if you don't know, then I am not going to tell you.' That used to drive me bananas. I don't want to sound sexist, but of all the men I've dated, not one has ever pulled that game on me even once. Is this behavior that just certain women and perfect masters do?
I have to say that a lot of men I know have told me that their wives/girlfriends do that to them. One of the guys I work with tells me that his wife will never tell him what she wants for her birthday, but she gets mad if he doesn't get her what she wants! Unbelievable. I think that men probably do it too, but it may be much more covert.
In counseling, this type of expected behavior is called "mindreading". Like if you love the person so much, you should be able to read their mind and know what they want. Maybe that's Maharaji's trip, too.
One reason that I think a lot of women do it is that it is a learned behaviour. A lot of women are taught while growing up that it's not OK to ASK for what you want. You're supposed to manipulate to get what you want. Thus the "if you don't know, then I'm not going to tell you", because your girlfriend was probably trying to hint around for a long time and you were too obtuse to pick up on the clues (Sorry, Joe. I really think it's a stupid game, but I'm just trying to explain it.) Anyway, I am female, as you know, and I was brought up to do that too, and it took me a long time to feel OK about asking for what I want (and to feel OK about saying NO too, but that's a whole nother topic.)
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 20:48:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Deja news (Re: twist)
Message:
Katie,
Thanks! Duhhh! I can't get into the newsgroup because of my ISP (which is new, small, and local) I'll have to contact them about this.
Off subject, do you think that M ever reads the stuff that is posted here? Has anyone heard that he has been on this site?
I don't think M has ever been on this site (although opinions differ). As to whether he reads the site, who knows? I would probably have problems reading it if I were him! Maybe he has a person who reads it for him.
BTW I don't claim to understand this stuff but I think you can get your local ISP (my ISP is so small and local that they don't even HAVE a newsreader) to carry alt.cult.maharaji by e-mailing them. But Deja News usually gets more of the articles than the local newsreaders. You probably already figured this out if you read the whole page that I mentioned in my earlier post - there's a lot of good info on it (courtesy of Brian, Scott Perry, and David Stirling)
Katie
P.S. I live in Missouri.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 21:11:47 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Afraid of M (Re: twist)
Message:
These stories are so interersting for me to hear. I never heard anything negative about M-no ranting or tirade stories from my premie family members. I guess that maybe M gets sick of having all these people slobbering over him and agreeing with him all of the time. That would get very dull after a while. That doesn't excuse that type of behavior. That is a horrible way to treat anyone, let alone people who are working for you or trying to help you. I wouldn't have been a very good premie. I would have told him that if he couldn't help me with any contructive comments to fix it his own damn self.
Well, since 99% of premies never spent time around M except at programs, I doubt they would know much about this stuff, except maybe from premies who witnessed those events, and they are unlikely to say anything unflattering about him.
It really might not be Maharaji who is so sick, it's the situation that is sick. The idea that one human being, because of what people who have never even met him believe him to be, is not required to live up to the same standards of decency we would expect from anyone else. Especially someone who is supposed to be 'loving' and spiritually evolved. I don't think M is an evil person. But I do think he is lacking in the integrity department.
And I don't care if Maharaji gets pissed off. I care that he can direct his wrath at people who can't stand up for themselves. That is the inherent problem with the master-devotee relationship. And the worst part, is that the relationship isn't even necessary. If he wanted to be a meditation instructor, only, he could be, although he might have to reduce his standard of living if he did. It's all his choice to hold himself out as 'the Master' and expect people to devote to him and to finance his lavish lifestyle. That's his choice. But it is also regrettable that there are apparently people who fall into that trap.
My one premie relative who I spoke with the most on the subject of M would never say anything negative, even if he had heard something. He was in denial about anything negative and I think that he probably rationalized anything that he heard. He was really trying to get me to be premie, so I'm sure that telling me something negative was not in the plan.
I agree with you except that when you are a child and your father tells you that you are the Perfect Master, maybe you believe it and are not really "holding yourself out as the Master" ( Of course I don't know his heart). I just know that if he is the Satguru, than he should be loving and kind and just-not taking wrath out on devotees. If he just thinks he is Satguru, but is only human, than he should at least be trying. ( Maybe he is upset because someone told him he is perfect and he can't pull it off because he is only an human.) But like you said, who cares why he is pissed--harming others is never justified.
The devotee/master thing was the one thing I just could not get into. (Though I can certainly understand it, because it was all around me). It is very one-sided from what I can tell. I really wanted to believe that M had something great for me and that he was a spiritual leader, but I could never make the jump of faith that one would need to be a devotee. Maybe this was because I was a child and whenever I went into premie homes and none of the pictures on the walls were of them or their families but only of M and his family-- I was freaked out. Those shrines in people's homes were intense!
I hope that I don't offend anyone when I say this, but I used to be SCARED of the pictures of M. They always looked like he was looking out of the corner of his eyes at me. I used to think "If he isn't God, than he is certainly the devil." I couldn't stand to be alone in the room with a photo of him. This would make darshan a bit difficult.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 22:01:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Afraid of M (Re: twist)
Message:
I hope that I don't offend anyone when I say this, but I used to be SCARED of the pictures of M. They always looked like he was looking out of the corner of his eyes at me. I used to think 'If he isn't God, than he is certainly the devil.' I couldn't stand to be alone in the room with a photo of him. This would make darshan a bit difficult.
I'm not offended (and I hope no one else is either) because I used to feel the same way about certain pictures of Jesus. When I was a kid, a lot of my friends' parents had pictures of Jesus hanging up all over, or (worse yet) crucifixes, or (the scariest) glow-in-the-dark crucifixes. I'd never experienced anything like that at home, so it was a little scary.
Later, one of my old boyfriends (who I lived with for a long time) hung a huge picture of Jesus in our bedroom. The picture wasn't so bad (he had found it in an old house that he was remodeling) but it kind of freaked me out for a while. Later I got used to it, but when people would come over to our house, they asked me how I could stand to have that picture in my bedroom.
When I stopped following M, I put new pictures in all the frames which I had filled with pictures of M (there were a lot of them). However, because of some lingering superstition, I was afraid to throw the pictures of M away (this sounds so stupid now that I'm embarrassed to write it). I just put new pictures in on top of them. This made for some weird surprises when I took the new pictures out of the frames years later.
I always wondered what premies' kids thought about all the pictures of Maharaji that premies used to have all over. Now I know, a little bit, anyway.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 01:41:33 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Missing old friends
Message:
After reading Mr Ex's post and also Joe's I got thinking, the one thing I do regret is that through leaving Maharaji and the organisation, I lost a lot of old friends. Mainly because they were still part of M's world when I left and were scattered all over the UK to God knows where.
I think the idea of a personal ads page is a good one. Somewhere where we can leave an ad saying that this is me, now living in so & so and if you're there, Bill, John, Mary or whoever, drop me an email.
The one thing that has hurt all these years, is that the friends I made in the seventies and early eighties are mostly gone forever. We had some pretty intense and close times and I sure would like to meet up with some of them again.
Does anyone else feel this way? Just one more thing. I know how Mr Ex and Joe feel in what they wrote. For me it's the regret of pushing people away from me who I felt very close to. I believed that I shouldn't have such close relationships and so I appeared to reject some people who were very dear to me. To those people, I am genuinely sorry and if I could meet you again, I'd give you a big hug!
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 16:08:48 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Missing old friends
Message:
David, you reminded me of something, I went to see a video of M about a year and a half ago, this was the first time I had been back in 15 years, and one of the things M said was that "people should keep in touch, come to an event, but don't come so you can say hello to people you haven't seen in 20 years".
I realized then that I did not belong at an event. Because I definetly would want to see people I hadn't seen in years, and I would not want to feel guilty about it. It also struck me as the same old trip that M was laying down - instilling feelings of guilt about wanting to keep in touch with friends.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:55:19 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Missing old friends
Message:
Nice to see that he's the same old understanding and human Lord of the Universe he always was.
Does he ever wonder why most people can't stand him for more than a few years?
msg
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:36:29 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum II archives online
Message:
The Forum II archives are now available from the Archives page. These files are in .ZIP file format for downloading and reading off-line only. The posts date from December 9, 1997 to January 20,
1998.
The two archives contain 3-4 compressed .HTM files each. I made some changes to their format. The index is cleaner-looking, and the articles in the threads line up better for reading. The links at the bottom of each message now offer you a choice of going to the top of the index (the Forum I way) or returning to that message's entry in the index. There are no off-site graphics as in the Forum I archives.
Note that the archives are numbered 2 and 3. There is a previous archive available, but it needs work. Some of you may recall that after the move back to Paradise, the forum server crashed - taking over 500 posts with it. They turned up in the first archive made after the crash, but have no index entries to click on.
I cut them out of that archive and am writing a utility to build an index from the file of messages. Paradise being what it is, we'll need it again someday. I'll put them online when I get the program working and the index built. There are over 580 that were saved.
Other site changes:
Rolls-Royce is now hyphenated.
Added some more White Pages entries. (I probably shoulda wrote down the new names to
announce here.)
Corrected the Bob Mishler interview. The name of the Mahatma who led the rebellion against Mata Ji by putting MJ on Party Chair was Mahatma Sampuranand. The name must have been hard to decifer from the tape of the interview. This transcript error wouldn't have been committed if there had only been a Mahatma Smith around back then. Maharaji could have told me this himself, but he hasn't been contributing to the site like he outa...
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 07:09:40 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: An apology from M??
Message:
A question to those practising premies who still dare to show their cyber-faces in this un-hallowed space. Namely CD and OP (to whom I have grown most affectionate)
One of the reasons that I think I am again and again drawn back to this site is that somewhere I have the possibly forlorn notion that Maharaji (as a consequence of the irritation to his conscience by these "thorn-in-his-side-like pages) may be inspired to apologise publically (or privately at the least) for having at length put upon my innocent soul (and others) the abominable sentence of imprisonment-for-the-best-part-of-my-youth in the ashram. The degree to which Maharaji has addressed this issue to date has been frankly insufficient if not a denial of responsibility.
Do you think this is a possibility or are we going about it the wrong way? (remember that I personally have tried writing and received no reply)
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 11:22:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
A question to those practising premies who still dare to show their cyber-faces in this un-hallowed space. Namely CD and OP (to whom I have grown most affectionate)
One of the reasons that I think I am again and again drawn back to this site is that somewhere I have the possibly forlorn notion that Maharaji (as a consequence of the irritation to his conscience by these 'thorn-in-his-side-like pages) may be inspired to apologise publically (or privately at the least) for having at length put upon my innocent soul (and others) the abominable sentence of imprisonment-for-the-best-part-of-my-youth in the ashram. The degree to which Maharaji has addressed this issue to date has been frankly insufficient if not a denial of responsibility.
Do you think this is a possibility or are we going about it the wrong way? (remember that I personally have tried writing and received no reply)
Why don't you just imagine an apology, since you are already imagining everything else that you rant about here?
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 11:56:23 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
Dear Anon, It sounds like wishful thinking to me. Do you really think Maharaji cares? He's the most self-centred, greedy slob and I don't think he gives a monkey's what happened to us in our youth (and he probably never even read your letter). Also, to apologize would mean he was wrong and had made a mistake. Can you see the "Perfect Master" admitting that?
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 13:42:35 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
A question to those practising premies who still dare to show their cyber-faces in this un-hallowed space. Namely CD and OP (to whom I have grown most affectionate)
One of the reasons that I think I am again and again drawn back to this site is that somewhere I have the possibly forlorn notion that Maharaji (as a consequence of the irritation to his conscience by these 'thorn-in-his-side-like pages) may be inspired to apologise publically (or privately at the least) for having at length put upon my innocent soul (and others) the abominable sentence of imprisonment-for-the-best-part-of-my-youth in the ashram. The degree to which Maharaji has addressed this issue to date has been frankly insufficient if not a denial of responsibility.
Do you think this is a possibility or are we going about it the wrong way? (remember that I personally have tried writing and received no reply)
Why don't you just imagine an apology, since you are already imagining everything else that you rant about here?
Now this is the mili that we've all come to know and.....
Have you no sensitivity to other people's experience?You are sounding as bad as all those ww2 history 'revisionists' around.How dare you call someone else's genuine experience imagined.
M will never apologize(unless of course the good lord lets him see the light) or acknowledge peoples real feelings.But you mili,you should apologize to anon for the disrespect you've shown him.
I know that you are really a nice guy beneath your b.s.,but sometimes you just sound mean.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 17:18:47 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
A question to those practising premies who still dare to show their cyber-faces in this un-hallowed space. Namely CD and OP (to whom I have grown most affectionate)
One of the reasons that I think I am again and again drawn back to this site is that somewhere I have the possibly forlorn notion that Maharaji (as a consequence of the irritation to his conscience by these 'thorn-in-his-side-like pages) may be inspired to apologise publically (or privately at the least) for having at length put upon my innocent soul (and others) the abominable sentence of imprisonment-for-the-best-part-of-my-youth in the ashram. The degree to which Maharaji has addressed this issue to date has been frankly insufficient if not a denial of responsibility.
Do you think this is a possibility or are we going about it the wrong way? (remember that I personally have tried writing and received no reply)
I have to agree with Joy on this one. As I said below, many of us did things as Maharaji's stormtroopers for which we have taken responsibility and apologized. I don't think Maharaji's ego will let him do anything close to that. He just cannot admit error, and in all the years I was a premie I never heard of him doing that even once. Amazing.
I suppose he might consider some kind of a PR "apology" if he absolutely had to do it to keep his watered-down "master" trip going. In other words, to keep the money flowing. Otherwise, I think it's unlikely.
Like you, I have sent registered letters to Maharaji, that I know have been received, but were never responded to. I know of a number of other ex-premies and soon-to-be--ex-premies who have done the same and who also have received nothing but silence from Mr. Rawat. Pretty shitty to not even respond, even with a "fuck you," don't you think? What would his mother, or his father for that matter, say about THAT?
But I also agree with Joy that besides the ego problem he has, Maharaji also really never did give a shit about his devotees and probably still doesn't, so, basically, he doesn't care about the problems he caused us unless it might affect him personally. I mean, how much attention did he EVER give even the ashram premies? I recall telling someone recently who never knew about Maharaji that I had been an ashram resident (one of maybe 1000 in the west) of Mahraji for 10 years, dedicating my life to him, turning all my money over to him, and during all that time he never spoke to me even once, not by phone, not in person, not by letter, never, nor did he even enter to door of one of the ashrams I lived in and I doubt he ever even heard my name. And the same was true for all but a small handful of premies. Someone who looks at that objectively finds that quite astounding, and I think it's quite reflective of what M thought of us. Not very much. And I doubt that has changed.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 17:40:55 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
Why don't you just imagine an apology, since you are already imagining everything else that you rant about here?
Very funny Mili. Your a real hoot. I suppose all the good stuff I remember from the pastisn't my imagination? Or am I imagining my entire past existence! Seriously though, I may sound a little over melodramatic but I do clearly recall that the ashram, for me, was not so much fun, and I really can't in retrospect see that the benefits of being there outweighed the unhealthy consequences. I seriously do consider the possibility that Maharaji may be capable of some sort of conciliatory gesture to those who had a rough ride. It would help move things along, maybe clear things up for us. What's the problem? He said the ashrams were a mistake or something like that once anyway, I heard.
I won't hold my breath in anticipation of him talking about it.
Sorry you find my ranting so offensive. Of course you never rant do you Mili?
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 18:39:56 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
The Big M will never apologise for the sins of the past and for leading us into paths of serfdom and for shaking every last cent out of our pockets. He is not going to apologise for the eyeball squeezing and coma-inducing satsang. It's just not going to happen.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 20:06:33 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston
To: ALL
Subject: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
The Big M will never apologise for the sins of the past and for leading us into paths of serfdom and for shaking every last cent out of our pockets. He is not going to apologise for the eyeball squeezing and coma-inducing satsang. It's just not going to happen.
I am surprised by the thought that he would ever apologize. I never even considered that. When I finally walked away in 1974, I never considered that anyone had ever "done" anything to me. Yes I saw the control and the power wielding, but every day I was there, I chose it. When I chose not to be there I walked away. I was full of fear, loath to lose the love and respect of others I had come to think of as my family, but MJ did'nt do anything to me I did not fully participate in. I am amazed that I no longer feel victimize by DLM or MJ. But i don't. I am gratefule for that at least. The entire time I was there I was looking for something for me too, enlightenment (sort of personal power, don't you think) love and survival. I was scared of being alive and DLM was a good hiding place. I got something out of it I wanted. Actully I am warming up to the thought of sharing with you folks about those experiences, but not as a victim, please.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 20:51:12 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I am surprised by the thought that he would ever apologize. I never even considered that. When I finally walked away in 1974, I never considered that anyone had ever 'done' anything to me. Yes I saw the control and the power wielding, but every day I was there, I chose it. When I chose not to be there I walked away. I was full of fear, loath to lose the love and respect of others I had come to think of as my family, but MJ did'nt do anything to me I did not fully participate in. I am amazed that I no longer feel victimize by DLM or MJ. But i don't. I am gratefule for that at least. The entire time I was there I was looking for something for me too, enlightenment (sort of personal power, don't you think) love and survival. I was scared of being alive and DLM was a good hiding place. I got something out of it I wanted. Actully I am warming up to the thought of sharing with you folks about those experiences, but not as a victim, please.
Dear Stephen - it's been written a lot of times on here that it was people's "choice" to live in the ashram and to obey Maharaji, and so forth, so these people were not victimized. And Maharaji didn't hold a gun to anyone's head to make them do anything, so he doesn't owe anyone an apology.
I don't think that's true. I don't think that I was personally victimized by Maharaji or his organization. I basically came out of it in the same place I came in. Neither place was so great, but things could have been a lot worse. But I didn't dedicate myself to Maharaji by living in the ashram and following the ashram rules, and I never really trusted Maharaji the way a lot of other people on this site did (I am not saying that I was smarter - I just plain didn't trust people in general).
So please, write your story. I would like to hear it, and I don't expect it to be told from a victim's standpoint. I guess I just want to say that some of the people who participate in the forum had bad things happen to them as a result of following Maharaji (one could even say that they WERE victimized, if that wasn't such a loaded word), and that these bad things should not be minimized. You may already feel this way, I don't know. I just wanted to make that point.
Looking forward to your story,
Regards from
Katie
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 21:03:16 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I am surprised by the thought that he would ever apologize. I never even considered that. When I finally walked away in 1974, I never considered that anyone had ever 'done' anything to me. Yes I saw the control and the power wielding, but every day I was there, I chose it. When I chose not to be there I walked away. I was full of fear, loath to lose the love and respect of others I had come to think of as my family, but MJ did'nt do anything to me I did not fully participate in. I am amazed that I no longer feel victimize by DLM or MJ. But i don't. I am gratefule for that at least. The entire time I was there I was looking for something for me too, enlightenment (sort of personal power, don't you think) love and survival. I was scared of being alive and DLM was a good hiding place. I got something out of it I wanted. Actully I am warming up to the thought of sharing with you folks about those experiences, but not as a victim, please.
Dear Stephen - it's been written a lot of times on here that it was people's 'choice' to live in the ashram and to obey Maharaji, and so forth, so these people were not victimized. And Maharaji didn't hold a gun to anyone's head to make them do anything, so he doesn't owe anyone an apology.
I don't think that's true. I don't think that I was personally victimized by Maharaji or his organization. I basically came out of it in the same place I came in. Neither place was so great, but things could have been a lot worse. But I didn't dedicate myself to Maharaji by living in the ashram and following the ashram rules, and I never really trusted Maharaji the way a lot of other people on this site did (I am not saying that I was smarter - I just plain didn't trust people in general).
So please, write your story. I would like to hear it, and I don't expect it to be told from a victim's standpoint. I guess I just want to say that some of the people who participate in the forum had bad things happen to them as a result of following Maharaji (one could even say that they WERE victimized, if that wasn't such a loaded word), and that these bad things should not be minimized. You may already feel this way, I don't know. I just wanted to make that point.
Looking forward to your story,
Regards from
Katie
Opps, went back and checked my post...was OK up to the last sentance, that did sound a bit high and mighty didn't it?
Well, I take it back, I am sure some folks were seriously hurt, much more than I, like you I never really trusted anyone there..
See ya soon
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 21:27:26 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: The wind
Subject: Just disappointment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I don't want an apology from Maharaji. It would be a pointless gesture particularly since he is of no importance now.
There is only one thing which I've really felt and that is the disappointment of realising that God had NOT manifested onto the planet. You see, for a long time I genuinely thought I'd realised that Maharaji was The Almighty. I thought I was his blessed devotee, although I was not a very good one, I thought that since M was God, he'd understand.
So how could Maharaji ever apologise for pretending to be God? The fact that he is NOT God means to me, that anything he says if of no relevance to me any more. If he attempted to give an apology, I wouldn't even be interested in listening to it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M??
Message:
Anon,
If you want to know my thoughts on this issue you can send me an email message: webmaster@cdickey.com
I don't want to get into a public flame war on this topic.
Regards,
CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:32:04 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
The Big M will never apologise for the sins of the past and for leading us into paths of serfdom and for shaking every last cent out of our pockets. He is not going to apologise for the eyeball squeezing and coma-inducing satsang. It's just not going to happen.
I am surprised by the thought that he would ever apologize. I never even considered that. When I finally walked away in 1974, I never considered that anyone had ever 'done' anything to me. Yes I saw the control and the power wielding, but every day I was there, I chose it. When I chose not to be there I walked away. I was full of fear, loath to lose the love and respect of others I had come to think of as my family, but MJ did'nt do anything to me I did not fully participate in. I am amazed that I no longer feel victimize by DLM or MJ. But i don't. I am gratefule for that at least. The entire time I was there I was looking for something for me too, enlightenment (sort of personal power, don't you think) love and survival. I was scared of being alive and DLM was a good hiding place. I got something out of it I wanted. Actully I am warming up to the thought of sharing with you folks about those experiences, but not as a victim, please.
I think people came from all kinds of places when they came to Maharaji and gave up different things while they were premies. I was somebody who had a lot going for me when I became a premie, and, like a fool, I believed what Maharaji said he was and I tried to do what he said thus giving all that up.
So, for me, I lived in the ashram, I gave up a full scholarship to graduate school, damaged my relationships with my family and friends (and missed many important events with them), was celibate for 10 years, lived with people I would not have chosen to live with and was vulnerable to the psychotic whims of higher-ups like David Smith. [Just to mention a few of the problems I had with that lifestyle.]
Now if I had left in 1974, I might not feel like that was a big deal, because I wouldn't have given up as much as I did. And once I was in the ashram, despite hating and being pretty miserable living there, I stayed because I heard with my own ears, Maharaji say that I SHOULD stay, and further that all kinds of terrible things would happen to me if I left. He continually said that I should devote my life to him and surrender to him 100%. To the extent you did that, you got ripped off big time, and the more you did that, the more likely you are to feel resentful that you were ripped off, especially when Maharaji just dumped the whole ashram "experiment" with his usual uncaring arrogance, and then acts like the whole thing never happened. I don't feel like a victim, but I do resent M's desire to act like a whole period of my life never happened and that he had nothing to do with it. That, for me, will just never do.
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Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 at 22:36:48 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Just disappointment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I don't want an apology from Maharaji. It would be a pointless gesture particularly since he is of no importance now.
There is only one thing which I've really felt and that is the disappointment of realising that God had NOT manifested onto the planet. You see, for a long time I genuinely thought I'd realised that Maharaji was The Almighty. I thought I was his blessed devotee, although I was not a very good one, I thought that since M was God, he'd understand.
So how could Maharaji ever apologise for pretending to be God? The fact that he is NOT God means to me, that anything he says if of no relevance to me any more. If he attempted to give an apology, I wouldn't even be interested in listening to it.
If he is not god, that means he is a human being, and a civilized human being should be expected to accept responsibility for his or her actions. That isn't the same thing as an "apology," it's just having a backbone and some level of integrity.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 00:32:09 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
Thanks for the post JW.....I guess I never realized what became of people I left behind. I also was never in the real committed Ashrams. I was one of the losers they just put up with. I was so far down the food chain I am surprised they even fed us! As I read your post I get a sense of what I might be feeling had I stayed longer. Your are right..I didn't give up much to go in...didn't stay that long...and walked away sooner. During that time I did feel emotionaly jerked around as you describe. I can only imagine what it must have been like for you for 10 years. I do find myself wondering what you are doing now...have you treated yourslef to that degree yet? I was at an age that I should have been in college too......I finally graduated with a BS last fall...at age 42 after 10 years of night school. Please post or mail for more privacy. Talk to you soon.-Stephen B
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 06:46:13 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Joy and Anon
Subject: Re: An apology from M? (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I agree with Joy that M doesn't think that he did anything wrong. When you have been told that you are "the one"- the incarnation of God from the time that you are a child, I would think that you would believe it. Some people did a real number on him and I guess he still believes it to be true. ( Although he did give up the thrones and costumes which is a little puzzling...)
Can you imagine being in your teens and early twenties and trying to run all of those ashrams and keep up with an entire organization, plus speaking engagements and programs, etc. It would be impossible to do this without error unless you really were the Perfect Master.
But if a real Perfect Master knew that he had hurt people, he would most certainly come to them in love and try to make some kind of gesture. The fact that he has not is just more proof to me that M is only human.
For anyone who is longing for an apology, do you think that there is a small part of you that is longing for part of your old belief system to still be true? For M to apologize would mean that he would have to know your pain, and to care for your feelings in some way.
A sincere apology requires remorse. Even if you got an apology, how would you know it was sincere? Wouldn't it just confuse your feelings on this issue? It couldn't change the past. Maybe you don't care how M feels about you but are simply looking for a little closure. All the closure that you need is probably going to have to come from inside of you.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 15:00:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
Thanks for the post JW.....I guess I never realized what became of people I left behind. I also was never in the real committed Ashrams. I was one of the losers they just put up with. I was so far down the food chain I am surprised they even fed us! As I read your post I get a sense of what I might be feeling had I stayed longer. Your are right..I didn't give up much to go in...didn't stay that long...and walked away sooner. During that time I did feel emotionaly jerked around as you describe. I can only imagine what it must have been like for you for 10 years. I do find myself wondering what you are doing now...have you treated yourslef to that degree yet? I was at an age that I should have been in college too......I finally graduated with a BS last fall...at age 42 after 10 years of night school. Please post or mail for more privacy. Talk to you soon.-Stephen B
Thanks, Stephen, I do wish I had my 20s back, or at least that I had had the opportunity to live a self-directed life instead of giving it over to a charlatan during that period. I also regret that I wasn't doing something more productive with that time, instead of helping to enrich Maharaji and helping him maintain his gigantic ego trip. But you can't change history and that period is not a long time ago. Part of the maturity I feel in my 40s is accepting things I can't change, no matter how unjust they are, but at the same time I have inherited enough of my Dad's outrage at injustice to want to continue to speak up and point out the unfairness of what Maharaji did to many of us and the pain he caused many people.
Yes, I was fortunate to have gotten my BA just before moving into the ashram. After I left, I did get a graduate degree, but not the one I had the scholarship for years ago, and in fact without any scholarship at all. It was a different thing working full time and doing graduate work. I was so busy I forgot about Maharaji and his trip for many years. Sounds like you have had similar educational experiences.
Career-wise, I'm doing remarkably well, considering I started out 10 years behind everyone else. [Not to mention that my pension fund is also 10 years behind everyone else's.]
And I have re-connected with my family and feel very accepted by them, although I can't ever get back the time I lost with them, which I will always regret, and I can't ever entirely heal the rejected feeling they got from me while I was a premie. There is one thing with my family that I still feel very bad about, but that is the subject of another post.
And I'm not celibate anymore, and I have been working hard to make up for all the sex I didn't get in my 20s. I also have a great relationship with someone who knew nothing about Maharaji or being a premie, and just can't fathom that I would have ever been to gullible and stupid to do what I did.
All in all, I have a great life, with great friends, good health, people who love me, and a few bucks in the bank. And I am much, much wiser as a result of what I went through.
JW
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:04:07 (EST)
Poster: LG
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
You don't feel victimized... you know why?
That's because you made concious choices all along.
If every one would take responsibility for their lives, there
would be less blames.
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:07:41 (EST)
Poster: LG
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
The Big M will never apologise for the sins of the past and for leading us into paths of serfdom and for shaking every last cent out of our pockets. He is not going to apologise for the eyeball squeezing and coma-inducing satsang. It's just not going to happen.
I am surprised by the thought that he would ever apologize. I never even considered that. When I finally walked away in 1974, I never considered that anyone had ever 'done' anything to me. Yes I saw the control and the power wielding, but every day I was there, I chose it. When I chose not to be there I walked away. I was full of fear, loath to lose the love and respect of others I had come to think of as my family, but MJ did'nt do anything to me I did not fully participate in. I am amazed that I no longer feel victimize by DLM or MJ. But i don't. I am gratefule for that at least. The entire time I was there I was looking for something for me too, enlightenment (sort of personal power, don't you think) love and survival. I was scared of being alive and DLM was a good hiding place. I got something out of it I wanted. Actully I am warming up to the thought of sharing with you folks about those experiences, but not as a victim, please.
You don't feel victimized... you know why?
That's because you made concious choices all along.
If every one would take responsibility for their lives, there
would be less blames.
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 19:50:29 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: An apology from M? (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I agree with Joy that M doesn't think that he did anything wrong. When you have been told that you are 'the one'- the incarnation of God from the time that you are a child, I would think that you would believe it. Some people did a real number on him and I guess he still believes it to be true. ( Although he did give up the thrones and costumes which is a little puzzling...)
Can you imagine being in your teens and early twenties and trying to run all of those ashrams and keep up with an entire organization, plus speaking engagements and programs, etc. It would be impossible to do this without error unless you really were the Perfect Master.
But if a real Perfect Master knew that he had hurt people, he would most certainly come to them in love and try to make some kind of gesture. The fact that he has not is just more proof to me that M is only human.
For anyone who is longing for an apology, do you think that there is a small part of you that is longing for part of your old belief system to still be true? For M to apologize would mean that he would have to know your pain, and to care for your feelings in some way.
A sincere apology requires remorse. Even if you got an apology, how would you know it was sincere? Wouldn't it just confuse your feelings on this issue? It couldn't change the past. Maybe you don't care how M feels about you but are simply looking for a little closure. All the closure that you need is probably going to have to come from inside of you.
VP
I wish I time to reply to you more fully. I read your posts and appreciate your thoughts which you have expressed nice and clearly.. I agree with you totally about closure having to come from inside. You are absoutely right.
Thanks
Anon
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:05:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: LG
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
And just how did you know that? It certainly wasn't by what he said, because he was, for years, saying the exact opposite? Did you just take what he said with a grain of salt, or just choose not to believe what he said?
Look, I know I was an idealistic kid when I got involved with M, and I REALLY WANTED to believe what he was saying was true. Part of me to this day would like to believe the fairy tale. In fact, I think that's why many people swallow the bullshit. They REALLY WANT IT TO BE TRUE......IT's amazing what you can accept if you want to accept it.
Don't get me wrong, I mean it's great you had that insight. Many of us, unfortunately, took what Maharaji said literally, with rather unpleasant results in some cases.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:18:37 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
And just how did you know that? It certainly wasn't by what he said, because he was, for years, saying the exact opposite? Did you just take what he said with a grain of salt, or just choose not to believe what he said?
Look, I know I was an idealistic kid when I got involved with M, and I REALLY WANTED to believe what he was saying was true. Part of me to this day would like to believe the fairy tale. In fact, I think that's why many people swallow the bullshit. They REALLY WANT IT TO BE TRUE......IT's amazing what you can accept if you want to accept it.
Don't get me wrong, I mean it's great you had that insight. Many of us, unfortunately, took what Maharaji said literally, with rather unpleasant results in some cases.
I know that because when I moved out of the Ashram,
he never mentioned anything! In 1983, 15 years ago.
In fact if I recal, he told us that if we didn't like it there...
ciao! That blunt. We were there to serve, and that was it.
One of M's teaching was to listen to your heart, so, I learned to listen my feelings as being my God.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 20:54:39 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
And just how did you know that? It certainly wasn't by what he said, because he was, for years, saying the exact opposite? Did you just take what he said with a grain of salt, or just choose not to believe what he said?
Look, I know I was an idealistic kid when I got involved with M, and I REALLY WANTED to believe what he was saying was true. Part of me to this day would like to believe the fairy tale. In fact, I think that's why many people swallow the bullshit. They REALLY WANT IT TO BE TRUE......IT's amazing what you can accept if you want to accept it.
Don't get me wrong, I mean it's great you had that insight. Many of us, unfortunately, took what Maharaji said literally, with rather unpleasant results in some cases.
JW -- If you have an Email, I would like to share with you
more privately.
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Date: Mon, Feb 2, 1998 at 21:08:59 (EST)
Poster: Curious
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Just disappointment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
Does that mean if he is God he doesn't have to apologize? ...Well there you go, that proves it! He is God after all! Halleluliah.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:10:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: lg
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I did too lived at the Ashram, and I knew M didn't care one
way or the other.
And just how did you know that? It certainly wasn't by what he said, because he was, for years, saying the exact opposite? Did you just take what he said with a grain of salt, or just choose not to believe what he said?
Look, I know I was an idealistic kid when I got involved with M, and I REALLY WANTED to believe what he was saying was true. Part of me to this day would like to believe the fairy tale. In fact, I think that's why many people swallow the bullshit. They REALLY WANT IT TO BE TRUE......IT's amazing what you can accept if you want to accept it.
Don't get me wrong, I mean it's great you had that insight. Many of us, unfortunately, took what Maharaji said literally, with rather unpleasant results in some cases.
JW -- If you have an Email, I would like to share with you
more privately.
Sorry, I just found these posts. My e-mail address is:
Joger02@aol.com.
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Date: Tues, Feb 3, 1998 at 17:21:11 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: lg
Subject: Re: regrets and resentment (Re: An apology from M??)
Message:
I know that because when I moved out of the Ashram,
he never mentioned anything! In 1983, 15 years ago.
In fact if I recal, he told us that if we didn't like it there...
ciao! That blunt. We were there to serve, and that was it.
One of M's teaching was to listen to your heart, so, I learned to listen my feelings as being my God.
I think it might be one of M's teachings NOW to "listen to your heart" at least I think it's currently in vogue for him and the premies to say that now, but that WASN'T what he was saying when I was a premie. He was saying surrender whatever you think or feel to Guru Maharaj Ji and serve him. Period. There was no room to follow your feelings or your thoughts. And he was very explicit about the importance of the ashram and that we definitely were to stay put there, no matter how we felt. I mean, we were free to leave, but only if you were willing to defy the will of god, give up on your dedication to him, and be willing to sustain the bad stuff that he said would happen to you. Not much of a choice.
I've heard that he said zip when he closed the ashrams in 1983, which I think is reprehensible given what he had said previously. I left in 1983 too. That's fine if he said that "if you didn't like it there ciao" but if he closed the ashrams at the same time as he did, that didn't leave us with much of a choice, now did it?
But don't get me wrong, I think the ashrams were awful places and were better off being closed, but I DO think M should have taken responsibility for his prior tirades about it and do little explaining. He owed it to those premies. But then, he never has been much for cleaning up his own messes.
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