Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 11 | |
From: Mar 21, 1998 |
To: Mar 28, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 20:06:02 (EST)
Poster: Participant Email: To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Work Message: As I'm a computer novice I don't know how to respond to a post if I can't see it on screen and as I have a life I can't be here every day so I have prepared a group response to Robyn, VP, JW and whoever else ther was. To ???? He is supporting himself and all of us too. If he was inept how could he possibly have done all the deluding of premies and raising of millions you ex-premies claim he has? Your slanders are contradictory. And yes I have been buying as many vidoes as I can though I don't need to as the community has a library of them. I haven't noticed that prices have risen recently but all you ex-premies are 15 or 20 years after their use by date. My own personal video resource of wisdom for the future is: A Call and Response 20 A Gift Unparalleled 24 A Permanent Home 25 A Remarkable Messenger 19 A Silent Promise 30 A Simple Perspective 12 A Simple Request A Very Good Friend 28 A Wish for Life 28 A Wonderful Time 34 Abidjan AM 44 8/17/94 Abidjan aspirant 54 8/6/95 Abidjan aspirant 61 8/2/96 Abidjan participation 44 8/4/96 Abidjan PM 50 8/18/94 Abidjan premies 57 8/4/96 Abidjan premies 1 70 8/8/95 Abidjan premies 2 17 8/9/95 Abidjan public 48 8/17/94 Abidjan, PM 56 7/30/97 Abidjan, AM 40 7/30/97 About Knowledge 28 About Learning 29 About Life 7 About You 21 Accepting Knowledge 27 Accra AM 51 8/14/94 Accra PM 29 8/15/94 Accra public 51 8/10/95 Accra public 52 8/14/94 Action 12 Aguas de Lindoia aspirant 46 8/10/96 Aguas de Lindoia premies 58 8/10/96 Ahmedabad 50 11/23/96 Ahmedabad public 31 11/24/96 Amaroo 1 24 6/4/93 Amaroo 2 38 6/6/93 Amaroo Aspirant Event 65 8/23/97 Amaroo Closing 42 9/21/97 Amaroo PM 17 9/20/97 Amaroo Evpening 58 9/19/97 Amaroo Highlights 56 1/9/97 Amaroo Journey's End 1 16 5/3/94 Amaroo Journey's End 2 66 5/3/94 Amaroo Journey's End 3 18 5/4/94 Amaroo Journey's End 4 49 5/4/94 Amaroo Journey's End 5 23 5/5/94 Amaroo Journey's End 6 42 5/5/94 Amaroo Journey's End 7 75 5/6/94 Amaroo Journey's End 8 67 5/6/94 Amaroo Journey's End 9 49 5/7/94 Amaroo AM 46 9/20/97 Amaroo AM 55 9/19/97 Amaroo Opening 43 9/18/97 Amaroo participation 25 10/19/96 Amaroo Participation Meeting 25 Amsterdam 55 7/20/95 An Afternoon with Maharaji 47 An Atypical Topic 22 Anaheim 30 1/30/93 Anniversary, Miami 1996, Anniversary, Miami, AM 55 7/13/96 Anniversary, Miami, closing 63 7/14/96 Anniversary, Miami, opening 60 7/12/96 Anniversary, Miami, PM 63 7/13/96 Anniversary, Rome 1996, Highlights 61 Anniversary, Rome, AM 30 6/16/96 Anniversary, Rome, closing 65 6/17/96 Anniversary, Rome, opening 70 6/15/96 Anniversary, Rome, PM 59 6/16/96 Ask Maharaji 26 Aspirant Event Highlights (Santa Monica & Ft Lauderdale) 51 Aspire to Learn 45 Athens AM 56 7/30/94 Athens aspirant Q&A 57 7/30/94 Auckland AM 57 5/6/95 Auckland PM 50 5/6/95 Auckland, NZ, aspirant 74 9/21/96 Auckland, NZ, premies 78 9/21/96 Aurora AM 57 6/2/96 Aurora PM 13 6/2/96 Awaken 26 Baisakhi 1 45 4/7/95 Baisakhi 2 53 4/7/95 Baisakhi 3 33 4/8/95 Baisakhi 4 49 4/8/95 Baisakhi 5 45 4/9/95 Baisakhi Festival 97 48 4/13/97 Baisakhi Festival 97 49 4/12/97 Baisakhi Festival 97 56 4/11/97 Baisakhi, Delhi 45 4/6/96 Baisakhi, Delhi 53 4/4/96 Baisakhi, Delhi 62 4/7/96 Baisakhi, Delhi 67 4/3/96 Barcelona 52 7/19/93 Barcelona 65 6/14/95 Barcelona AM 62 3/27/96 Barcelona aspirant 43 7/12/95 Barcelona aspirant 63 6/7/97 Barcelona aspirant 65 4/24/96 Barcelona Part 1 68 9/6/97 Barcelona PM 16 3/27/96 Barcelona premies pt1 68 6/9/97 Be Awake 14 Because of Love 15 Being an Aspirant 18 Beyond 17 Beyond Expectations Bhajanamrit part 1 11 Bhajanamrit part 3 22 Birmingham 1 58 12/4/93 Birmingham 2 46 12/4/93 Birmingham Hindi 59 12/5/93 Book of Hearts 24 Boundless 12 Brighton 57 6/16/97 Brighton 77 3/31/95 Brighton 1 42 6/27/93 Brighton 2 37 6/28/93 Brighton 3 32 7/1/93 Brighton 4 53 6/28/93 Brighton 5 47 6/28/93 Brighton 6 50 6/29/93 Brighton 7 39 7/2/93 Brighton AM 20 7/20/94 Brighton AM 64 3/24/96 Brighton aspirant 59 4/19/96 Brighton Highlights 38 Brighton PM 12 3/24/96 Brighton PM 53 7/20/94 Brighton public 41 7/19/94 Brisbane 61 11/6/94 Brisbane AM 68 5/1/95 Brisbane aspirant 58 10/9/95 Brisbane Aspirant 85 10/4/96 Brisbane premies 53 10/5/96 Brisbane public 50 5/1/95 Buenos Aires 46 8/15/95 Buenos Aires 54 9/12/94 Buenos Aires 62 7/23/97 Buenos Aires aspirant 83 8/19/96 Buenos Aires premies part 1 58 8/21/96 Buenos Aires premies part 2 16 8/21/96 Buniyad 27 Calcutta, India 4/11/97 37 4/11/97 Calcutta, India 5/11/97 49 5/11/97 Calcutta, AM Event 55 11/8/96 Cape Town aspirant 64 8/23/96 Cape Town premies 66 8/24/96 Celebration in India 54 11/6/93 Charisma 4 Come and Listen Come As You 44 Commitment to Existence 33 Companionship Within Compass 9 Copenhagen 45 7/22/95 Copenhagen 63 6/20/97 Copenhagen AM 62 7/24/94 Copenhagen public 37 7/24/94 Cotonou 42 8/5/95 Cotonou AM 49 8/20/94 Cotonou PM 56 8/20/94 Cotonou, Benin 61 7/28/96 Courting Clarity 21 Crete 45 7/18/93 Dance with Life 37 Delhi 45 4/11/94 Delhi particptn meetings Feb 96 21 Delhi, India 20 2/20/96 Delhi, India, PM 48 2/17/96 Denver 57 9/15/93 Denver 59 7/31/95 Denver 65 10/14/97 Denver public 46 3/2/94 Door to Joy 32 Dream the Real Dream 42 Drop by Drop 13 Durban 70 5/8/97 Durban PM 55 6/8/97 Durban AM 73 6/8/97 East Coast Aspirant 1 AM 46 5/27/93 East Coast Aspirant 2 PM 30 5/27/93 Effort and Grace 14 Enjoy this existence Enjoy Your Life 29 Equilibrium 30 European Tour Highlights 48 Every Moment 23 Expression 26 Fall in Love 42 Feel the Thirst 16 Feel Your Way 17 Feeling of Life 15 Field of Joy 7 Fort Lauderdale 60 9/19/93 Fort Lauderdale 1 44 3/14/93 Fort Lauderdale 2 23 3/14/93 Fort Lauderdale 3 30 3/14/93 Fort Lauderdale 4 26 3/14/93 Fort Lauderdale 5 28 3/15/93 Fort Lauderdale 6 21 3/15/93 Fort Lauderdale 7 28 3/15/93 Fort Lauderdale 8 27 3/15/93 Fort Lauderdale AM 39 2/9/94 Fort Lauderdale aspirant meeting 39 2/10/94 Fort Lauderdale aspirant Q+A 1 40 2/10/94 Fort Lauderdale aspirant Q+A 2 43 2/10/94 Fort Lauderdale PM 56 2/9/94 Freedom From One Heart to Another 22 Ft. Lauderdale 31 2/7/93 Geneva AM 59 4/14/96 Geneva PM 23 4/14/96 Ghana 1 51 11/28/93 Ghana 2 19 11/28/93 Ghana 3 51 11/28/93 Good Anchorage 29 Grab This Moment 18 Grand Baie, Mauritius, aspirant (Hindi) 64 8/29/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, participation 25 9/1/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, premies 51 9/1/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, premies (Hindi) 49 8/31/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, premies part 2 (Hindi) 15 8/31/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, public 48 8/31/96 Grand Baie, Mauritius, public (Hindi) 12 8/31/96 Hans Jayanti 1 53 11/8/95 Hans Jayanti 2 53 11/9/95 Hans Jayanti 3 47 11/11/95 Hans Jayanti 4 45 11/12/95 Hans Jayanti '95 22 He's Here 5 Highlights 55 Holi Khei Rahe Satguru Ji 6 Hong Kong public 51 1/15/95 Hove aspirant 60 7/7/95 Hyderabad 46 11/21/96 Hyderabad 52 11/20/96 I Have This Knowledge 13 In the Simplest Terms 15 In Tune 5 India Tour highlights 57 Inner Window 24 Inside of You 18 Interactions 18 Interactions of the Heart 16 Isla Margarita 7/17/97 Isla Margarita AM 56 2/21/94 Isla Margarita aspirant Q+A 1 50 2/21/94 Isla Margarita aspirant Q+A 2 38 2/21/94 Isla Margarita public 48 2/20/94 Johannesburg 1 71 11/21/93 Johannesburg 2 61 11/22/93 Johannesburg 3 38 11/22/93 Johannesburg 4 67 11/23/93 Joy Maker 38 Kaohsiung 1 AM 59 10/16/93 Kaohsiung 2 PM 36 10/16/93 Kaohsiung 3 AM 38 10/17/93 Kaohsiung 4 PM 49 10/17/93 Kaohsiung 5 32 10/18/93 Kaohsiung aspirant Q+A 54 3/29/94 Kaohsiung open 44 3/29/94 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 56 7/9/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 58 6/9/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan, AM 50 2/27/96 Kaohsiung, Taiwan, PM 43 2/27/96 Kathmandu 45 4/2/94 Kathmandu 1 63 10/5/94 Kathmandu 2 43 10/6/94 Kathmandu 3 49 10/7/94 Kathmandu, Nepal 8/11/97 51 8/11/97 Keeper of the Key 49 Keeping in Touch 7 Kripa Vrishti 12 Kuala Lumpur 53 3/4/95 Kuala Lumpur 56 10/9/97 Kuala Lumpur 1 72 11/12/93 Kuala Lumpur 2 62 11/13/93 Kuala Lumpur 3 36 11/14/93 Kuala Lumpur 4 42 11/15/93 Kuala Lumpur AM 47 4/16/94 Kuala Lumpur AM sessions 63 2/13/96 Kuala Lumpur aspirant Q&A part 1 43 2/11/96 Kuala Lumpur aspirant Q&A part 2 40 2/11/96 Kuala Lumpur aspirant Q+A 54 4/16/94 Kuala Lumpur Particiption Meeting 32 2/11/96 Kuala Lumpur PM 41 2/13/96 Kuala Lumpur, PM 56 11/9/97 Kuala Lumpur, AM 61 11/9/97 Kyoto 1 AM 81 10/12/93 Kyoto 2 PM 70 10/12/93 Kyoto 3 AM 59 10/13/93 Kyoto 4 PM 54 10/13/93 Kyoto 5 42 10/14/93 L A Hindi 44 1/1/94 La Tierra del Amor 1 29 4/30/93 La Tierra del Amor 2 AM 33 5/1/93 La Tierra del Amor 3 PM 22 5/1/93 Learn to Admire 23 Learning More: Q & A part 1 33 Learning More: Q & A part 2 35 Learning to Listen 17 Leicester 52 6/15/97 Like The Rain 9 1/1/97 Like You Always Do 8 Listen to the Heart 18 Listen to You 26 Live this Moment Living Time 33 3/20/94 London (Hindi) 50 7/21/96 London Hindi 47 7/23/95 Long Beach 28 12/10/94 Long Beach 74 10/18/97 Long Beach 1 69 12/7/95 Long Beach 1995, Highlights 60 Long Beach 2 53 12/8/95 Long Beach 3 64 12/8/95 Long Beach 4 60 12/9/95 Long Beach 4/12/97 74 4/12/97 Long Beach AM 59 12/9/94 Long Beach AM 70 12/7/96 Long Beach closing 62 12/8/96 Long Beach PM 5/12/97 55 5/12/97 Long Beach PM 6/12/97 60 6/12/97 Long Beach Highlights 1996 Long Beach AM 5/12/97 54 5/12/97 Long Beach AM 6/12/97 61 6/12/97 Long Beach opening 92 12/6/96 Long Beach PM 62 12/9/94 Long Beach PM 70 12/7/96 Long Beach PM 72 12/8/94 Long Island AM pt1 59 6/4/96 Long Island AM pt2 20 6/4/96 Long Island PM 16 6/4/96 Los Angeles 48 5/23/94 Los Angeles 58 9/12/93 Los Angeles AM 1 51 9/18/94 Los Angeles AM 2 20 9/18/94 Los Angeles PM 56 9/18/94 M in North Pacific 30 Maharaji Answers Questions 25 Maharaji in Europe 34 Maharaji in the Orient 45 Malaysia aspirant 62 1/22/95 Malaysia Chinese meeting 35 1/20/95 Malaysia partciption meeting 20 1/20/95 Malaysia premies 64 1/20/95 Malaysia public 64 1/21/95 Mannheim 46 7/11/93 Mannheim 67 6/4/97 Mannheim 70 6/12/95 Mannheim AM 1 75 4/28/96 Mannheim AM 2 14 4/28/96 Mannheim PM 12 4/28/96 Mauritius AM 51 4/24/94 Mauritius aspirant Q+A 60 4/24/94 Melbourne 40 4/29/95 Melbourne 62 11/8/94 Melbourne premies 1 55 10/7/96 Melbourne premies 2 17 10/7/96 Melbourne public 46 4/28/95 Mere Satguru 11 Miami 49 2/7/94 Miami aspirant 51 9/24/95 Miami Beach 7/12/97 Miami Beach 55 3/21/95 Miami Beach AM 49 9/4/94 Miami Beach AM 53 1/27/96 Miami Beach PM 50 9/4/94 Miami Beach PM 51 1/27/96 Milan 71 6/12/97 Milan aspirant 48 7/10/95 Montevideo, Uruguay, premies 63 8/14/96 Montreal 75 9/20/93 Montreal AM 51 5/31/94 Montreal AM 62 5/30/96 Montreal Aspirant 67 5/28/96 Montreal PM 5/31/94 Montreal premies 50 9/20/95 Montreal public 38 9/21/95 Montreal public 45 5/30/94 New Delhi 41 11/4/96 New Delhi 47 11/3/96 New Delhi 61 11/2/96 New Delhi 67 11/1/96 New Delhi aspirant 31 2/24/95 New Delhi aspirant 49 2/25/95 New Delhi aspirant 1 40 11/1/95 New Delhi aspirant 2 50 11/2/95 New Delhi aspirant 3 60 11/3/95 New Delhi aspirant 4 48 11/5/95 New Delhi, PM 19/11/1997 44 11/19/97 New Delhi, PM 20/11/1997 50 11/20/97 New Delhi, India 14/11/1997 43 11/14/97 New Delhi, India 18/11/1997 36 11/18/97 New Delhi, AM 19/11/1997 20 11/19/97 New Delhi, AM 20/11/1997 20 11/20/97 New York public 41 6/30/97 New York public 46 2/28/94 No Greater Gift 40 Oakland 7/5/97 Oasis of Love 5 Ocean 4 Okayama public 50 3/26/94 Okayama, Japan 40 3/1/96 Okayama, Japan, second session 16 3/1/96 On the Master 20 One Chance 43 One Kind of Friend 22 One Life 41 Oporto 60 6/15/95 Oporto 62 7/20/93 Otsu aspirant 50 3/24/94 Otsu aspirant Q+A 53 3/24/94 Paris 51 7/10/93 Paris 56 7/16/95 Paris 65 6/1/97 Paris AM 52 7/26/94 Paris PM 49 7/26/94 Pasadena aspirant 61 9/28/95 Passage 11 Penang public 50 4/19/94 Person to Person 13 Philadelphia 77 9/21/93 Philadelphia AM 67 2/4/94 Philadelphia PM 67 2/4/94 Phoenix 44 2/13/94 Prem Sagar 18 Preparing for Knowledge: Questions and Answers 19 Preparing for Knowledge: The commitment 43 Realm of the Heart 35 Remembrance 18 Rome 50 6/13/95 Rome 1 53 7/13/93 Rome 2 46 7/14/93 Rome AM 52 7/28/94 Rome PM 44 7/28/94 Sabang Jaya 35 3/1/95 Salutations 7 San Diego AM 44 2/18/94 San Diego PM 39 2/18/94 San Diego public 39 2/17/94 San Francisco 56 9/13/93 Sanjog 8 Santa Monica 1 36 3/6/93 Santa Monica 1 AM 33 5/21/93 Santa Monica 2 25 3/6/93 Santa Monica 2 PM 25 5/21/93 Santa Monica 3 36 3/6/93 Santa Monica 3 45 5/22/93 Santa Monica 4 27 3/6/93 Santa Monica 4 35 5/23/93 Santa Monica 5 30 3/7/93 Santa Monica 6 29 3/7/93 Santa Monica 7 46 3/7/93 Santa Monica Public 47 5/23/96 Santiago 7/20/97 Santiago 1 63 9/9/94 Santiago 2 51 9/10/94 Santiago, Chile, aspirant 56 8/16/96 Santiago, Chile, premies part 1 65 8/17/96 Santiago, Chile, premies part 2 11 8/17/96 Sao Paulo 1 28 4/24/93 Sao Paulo 2 29 4/25/93 Sao Paulo aspirant 22 9/7/94 Sao Paulo premies 56 9/7/94 Sao Paulo, Brazil 55 7/26/97 Seattle public 45 2/1/94 Selctns frm South Pacific 1995 35 Selected Questions, Amaroo 26 Sense of Feeling 6 Serenity 4 Sheffield 61 6/10/95 Silent Dreams 5 Sincerity 32 Slowing Down 32 Something Precious 33 Spread This Knowledge 10 Springtime in Japan 16 3/10/94 Stockholm AM 1 57 4/30/96 Stockholm AM 2 19 4/30/96 Stockholm PM 20 4/30/96 Storyteller Sweet Gratitude 25 Sydney 60 4/27/95 Sydney Public 47 10/6/96 Taiwan 61 1/25/95 Take Flight 18 Tera Mera Manuwa 27 Thank You 26 The Best of Long Beach 55 The Bridge 26 The Chord of Life 8 The Comfort Within 35 The Company You Keep The Evolution Inside 44 The Eye Of Knowledge 23 The Fine Line 31 The Gardener The Gift of Life 4 The Giver and the Gift 10 The Gold Mine 22 The Greatest Companion 29 The Heart of the Story 25 The Journey Home 22 The Living Experience 38 The Magic of Love 9 The Master 11 The Master Brings Knowledge to Life 22 The Message Remains the Same 20 The Moment Called Now 30 The Music of the Heart 37 2/7/93 The Nature 28 The Next Step 13 The Original Dream 33 The Panorama Within 26 The Perfect Instrument 7 The Pulse of Existence 19 The Right Question 9 The Simplicity of Enjoying Life 19 The Stream 29 The Sunflower 13 The Swing 32 The Topic is Life 25 The Triangle 23 The Ultimate Gift 23 The Ultimate Wish 28 The Want Within The World of Knowledge 17 This Time 7 Thousand Oaks 60 7/29/95 Thousand Oaks 83 3/24/95 Thousand Oaks AM pt1 60 2/3/96 Thousand Oaks AM pt2 15 2/3/96 Thousand Oaks PM 53 2/3/96 Time 5 To Be Conscious 18 To Have This Magic 24 To Learn To Grow 55 To Remember 40 To Seek Joy 23 5/1/97 Tokyo 54 9/30/97 Tokyo 63 9/29/97 Tokyo 67 4/14/95 Toronto 43 5/27/94 Toronto 60 6/29/97 Total Embrace 4 Towards fulfilment 27 Trust the Trustable 41 Turning Towards Beauty 38 Universal City 60 5/23/97 Vancouver 54 9/14/93 Vancouver AM 45 5/25/94 Vancouver PM 53 5/25/94 Vera Cruz 7/15/97 Vienna 56 7/18/95 Washington DC 45 2/5/94 Washington DC 58 7/25/95 Washington DC PM 69 5/25/97 Wembley public 41 6/22/97 What a Gift 21 What Knowledge Is Not 43 What Price Happiness? 9 When the Season Comes 19 When you go to meeting with your Heart 20 When You Turn Within 12 Within You 35 Yamossoukro 1 59 11/25/93 Yamossoukro 2 60 11/25/93 Yamossoukro 3 27 11/26/93 Yesa Koi Sant Mile 5 You Gave Me the Key 4 Your Agenda 20 Your Beat 30 Your Story 26 Never again are humans going to have to rely on fragments of recollections of the Perfect Master. Just try for a moment to get a hint of the expereince you used to have in Satsang and imagine what joys are available here. To VP: I have no idea about phone books in the USA. As a matter of fact this impressive list of programs is easily available for anyone who wants to find it. Even you have found out about the phone number of these organisations and Maharaji's activities through an organisation of bitter and deluded ex-premies, if that isn't an indication of his grace and mercy and his ability to spread this knowledge using all possible tools then what is? To Robyn: OF course spreading this Knowledge has Maharaji and his followers blissed out. I was referring to the arduous physical and mental difficulties that his lifestyle entails. Maharaji is blasted here because the many that post here have proved themselves insincere and cruel. To JW: You continually blather out your mind about Maharaji and Knowledge, $6,000,000 a year and 90% of premies leave Maharaji, where do you get these figures but from your mind? In our local community at least a third to a half received Knowledge while Divine Light Mission was active. You admit that aspirants come from premies' friends but refuse to accept that this is because of the inspiring experience of premies' lives that practising Knowledge brings. Many premies in our community who have been meditating for years now have stable and joyful relationships and wonderful lifestyles. Maharaji is REALLY interested in spreading knowledge and is publicizing it. You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji. He had to use it at first to collect a nucleus of people but those days are over. Maharaji has said recently: 'I am ready for the next phase. I see a next phase coming. In the next phase I see a lot of Knowledge sessions - they have to happen, the enthusiasm is there, the people are there, people who want to receive Knowledge - they're there, I see that.' He has been setting up the infrastructure and now we are ready: 'I want to make this transformation - I don't only want to make it beautiful for this generation, whilst I am alive, but when the next Master comes I want to make it nice for him or her. So they don't have to put up with the garbage I did.' I look forward to seeing your posts when I return from a blissful holiday in Malaysia listening to Maharaji. I didn't think I was going to be able to afford it but by his grace holidays in Asia now cost almost next to nothing. Enjoy. Participant. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 21:10:29 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Maharaji said: 'I want to make this transformation - I don't only want to make it beautiful for this generation, whilst I am alive, but when the next Master comes I want to make it nice for him or her. So they don't have to put up with the garbage I did.' Bullshit. And he knows it. He has not made it beautiful for this generation. If he thinks he has then he is deluded by his own sycophants. 'When the perfect master comes'. There is no such thing as a perfect master. Everyone goes through garbage - that is one of the factors of living. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 21:14:50 (EST)
Poster: Steve A Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Thanks for the list, my.. doesn't M get around. I find your attack on the American people as a whole unjust and offensive. I know of no society in this world as perfect, but the truly great ones are those that strive for justice for all. I believe M has given little to this world but he has taken much. Many lives have been ruined by him and I hope yours will not be one of them. By the way I am not an American nor do I live in the U.S. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 21:18:05 (EST)
Poster: particulate Email: *.* To: Participant Subject: matters (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Hello paticulate, Welcome back from Asia, made cheap 'by his grace'. Maybe you noticed the extreme disruption in millions of lives because of this suddenly cheapened Asia. THEY would not associate thier vast dilemma with the term 'grace'. If they thought he was responsible he would surely be put to death by the locals. The only garbage maharaji put up with is the natural reaction of life to his misperception of it. In his occasional moments of admission, he admits his long term imprisonment by hate, greed, darkness, lust, (I forget for a moment the full list). In your great listening to all the videos, Did you notice his mid-life crisis after his mother died? It continued up to the December 97 event. Perhaps you don't listen to the tapes as well as you could. I am of course omitting one particular area that is the primary concern of mine in regards to his 'next phase'. When you get back we can discuss it. After looking at him for so long I think it is a wise course to try to see him as he actually is and not be involved in any fantasy I might have. Growing up and seeing and accepting things as they really are is what I am doing. Growing up and seeing things as they are is something maharaji is working on in some areas. What concerns me is the areas he is not apparently working on. I doubt with all your video watching you even see that. Bill Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 22:25:33 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Well, 'Participant,' god, you are so NEGATIVE!!! You must really be in your MIND!!! But, then, what do I know? I'm just one of those lost, sick, violent and murderous Ameri cans you make your derrogatory statements about. Keep in mind that your perfect master is an American citizen. He seems to like it here. Perhaps if I was living in your superior culture, whatever that is, I could also make derragatory comments about other people like you do. But, I guess you have been living under a rock or something and don't know that well over 100,000 people have received knowledge in the U.S. and fewer than 10,000 follow him. In case you are too stupid to do the math, that is a 90% attritition rate. And that is VERY conservative. As for the $6,000,000 per year, that came from the Malibu Mole, who said that's what Mahraji was demanding to continue to reveal knowledge. I guess that's inflation. When I was a honcho in DLM it cost at a minimum $300,000 a month, or about $4,000,000 a year to finance Maharaji's outrageously lavish lifestyle. And that didn't include any festivals, programs or propogation, that was just HIS living expenses, because he spent money like water. Apparently he still does. And why is the media, even the internet, 'no place for Maharaji?' Is he too much of a wimp to handle it? Is it too upsetting for him? Are the questions to confronting for him? My experience with Maharaji is that he is absolutely freaked by situations he cannot totally control. He lacks the confidence. He knows the charade is pretty transparent to most thinking people. He knows his embarrassing past when he publicly declared himself to be god will come back to haunt him. So, he preaches to the converted and fewer people come to one of his programs than came 15 years ago! But then, you see a new wave coming of lots of knowledge sessions. Don't hold your breath. I recall that rationalization throughout my involvement in Maharaji's cult. The wave, the millennium, the grace, was always just around the corner, when it would all come together. Keep telling yourself that participant, whatever gets you through the night and holds your ideological trip together for you. And doing it for the 'next' master --- cute rationalization there too. It really isn't Maharaji, he's just paving the way for the 'next' master. Cute. And I take it from your silence that you tacitly admit that Maharaji's traveling is hardly a burden and that he is making a fortune from it. Given the length of your video library, you may have personally financed a few gold plumbing fixtures for one of his residences. Did he send you a thank you card? As for 'blathering in my mind' well, you seem to blather pretty well yourself, although the content is lacking. I actually thought your first post was a joke saying that people were 'in their minds.' REALLY? Where did you fixate, 1973? Hope you come back from Malaysia more blissful. Sounds like you need it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 22:31:33 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant, I hope that you had a nice trip to Malasia. I friend of mine does a lot of buisness there and goes often. (He was born there) I have been invited, but have never been. Maybe someday... What country do you live in? You seem to have some very negatively prejudiced ideas about our culture here in the USA that are not based on anything factual. (For example, did you know that we also have a poor white underclass? In the state in which I live, and in many other states, there are more white welfare recipients than any other class of persons!) I will be the first to admit that we have our problems here, but there are some really great things going on here as well. Everything in the states is not about violence, hate and technology. Not all of us are mainstream into the culture either. America is full of individuals! (You may all take your right hands off of your hearts now, the pledge is over-ha ha) In the United States, if you want to find a phone number, you look it up in a book- a phone book or a phone directory. (You can also call an operator for assistance, but if a number isn't listed with the phone company and in the book, the operators will not have it either.) Most reputable buisnesses, churches, and other organizations have their numbers listed in the phone books. Many private individuals also have listings there. I would venture to say that if you want to be found, then your buisness or your religion is listed. Only private individuals who do not wish their phone number to be available to the general public do not list. (Someone pipe up here and correct me if I am wrong) I just do not understand why EV is not listed. Sorry, but I am thinking from a very Western and a very American perspective here. It makes no sense for an organization not to list...unless they can't for legal reasons or they are not reputable. I have to disagree with you about the availability of the list you published here (to the general public). This is the first time that I have ever heard about it or seen it before. And I have actually heard of Maharaji which is more than I can say for the majority of Americans. Since being on this forum, I have told others about it. Not one person I have told about it had ever even heard about Maharaji. They thought I was joking about there still being a Guru in the West. (They still don't believe it) I wouldn't say that Maharaji is mainstream here. I guess when you are involved in something and surrounded by it, you think that the whole world is also in tune with what you are doing, but they really aren't. I think that your assessment of 'many who post here' as being insincere and cruel wouldn't apply to Katie, JW, Selena, Brian, Robyn, Steve A. David, Anon, and a whole host of others. There is some anger here. It's their site and it's their experience Not one of them has ever been cruel or insincere to me. I will be interested to see what the next phase is...what it has in store. Who will GMJ be in the next phase? Who will the next perfect master be? Did GMJ really refer to himself as the perfect master? Several premies have argued on here that he never said that about himself! Which is it-Is he or isn't he? Also what is the 'garbage' he has had to put up with? Humanity? People who question him? I just don't understand what it is. I am being sincere and I am not throwing these questions at you to be cruel. How can you explain that M has had an influence upon the price of travel in Asia? Sincerely, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 22:34:24 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Beyond words... truly beyond words. Have a nice flight. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 23:24:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant: Regarding: You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji. Gee... sticks and stones! Racial prejudices, sure we've got that. It is 'The American Dilemma,' but what does that have to do with Maharaji's residing here? American culture is still evolving, but it is probably the only political and social culture not established on the basis of an ethnic identity, but on a common set of ideological values. Americans are skeptical of authority that gets too sanctified, so the real reason MJ doesn't like it here is that he has a greater likelihood of being undone, exposed... ala Jim Baker. Brian knows more about this stuff than I, but the impact of MJ on this or any culture is negligible, and always will be. I can't ever recall him going out on a limb to talk about racial prejudice, or to do anything substantial about crime. It's not surprising that he's more comfortable in a morally advanced culture like Maylasia, but they have their problems and ethnic struggles. Wonder if he'll take a stand on the persecution of and violence against the ethnic Chinese there. Sorry I asked. Ah, but yes... he has told people to plug their ears and press their eyeballs. WOW! What integrity! What character! What single minded dedication! He's lucky to have devotees so willing to attribute nobility to someone so apparently reluctant to demonstrate any genuine sign of it. I mean, he really is lucky. You deserve better. Thanks for the travel tip about Asia. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 00:45:00 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 01:35:30 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant: Regarding: You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji. Gee... sticks and stones! Racial prejudices, sure we've got that. It is 'The American Dilemma,' but what does that have to do with Maharaji's residing here? American culture is still evolving, but it is probably the only political and social culture not established on the basis of an ethnic identity, but on a common set of ideological values. Americans are skeptical of authority that gets too sanctified, so the real reason MJ doesn't like it here is that he has a greater likelihood of being undone, exposed... ala Jim Baker. Brian knows more about this stuff than I, but the impact of MJ on this or any culture is negligible, and always will be. I can't ever recall him going out on a limb to talk about racial prejudice, or to do anything substantial about crime. It's not surprising that he's more comfortable in a morally advanced culture like Maylasia, but they have their problems and ethnic struggles. Wonder if he'll take a stand on the persecution of and violence against the ethnic Chinese there. Sorry I asked. Ah, but yes... he has told people to plug their ears and press their eyeballs. WOW! What integrity! What character! What single minded dedication! He's lucky to have devotees so willing to attribute nobility to someone so apparently reluctant to demonstrate any genuine sign of it. I mean, he really is lucky. You deserve better. Thanks for the travel tip about Asia. -Scott I just watched the film 'Geronimo' two days ago. Barb forgot to mention what you did to the Indian nation (and I mean native Americans). Sort of makes Bosnia look pale in comparison. - Mili Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 01:51:54 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant wrote: 'I look forward to seeing your posts when I return from a blissful holiday in Malaysia listening to Maharaji. I didn't think I was going to be able to afford it but by his grace holidays in Asia now cost almost next to nothing. Enjoy.' Are you saying that the economic collapse in Asia is by M's grace? That's why tickets to Asia cost less, you know. Just think of all those Asians whose lives are being destroyed 'by his grace.' Sad. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 02:42:57 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant wrote: 'I look forward to seeing your posts when I return from a blissful holiday in Malaysia listening to Maharaji. I didn't think I was going to be able to afford it but by his grace holidays in Asia now cost almost next to nothing. Enjoy.' Are you saying that the economic collapse in Asia is by M's grace? That's why tickets to Asia cost less, you know. Just think of all those Asians whose lives are being destroyed 'by his grace.' Sad. Actually, I think the economic collapse in Asia is by the grace of George Soros. Soros is probably in cahoots with the CIA. Just my two cents. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 03:51:54 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: And yes I have been buying as many vidoes....you ex-premies are 15 or 20 years after their use by date. Wrong. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 06:53:33 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mili Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Mili, you are so spiritually advanced! Not like the Gooroo who moved here for the money, right? Ah, if there were only more like you out there... Well, the next thing you know ole Prem's a millionaire. The kinfolk said 'Prem, move away from there'. Said Californee is the only place for you, So he loaded up his jet, and he flew to Malibu... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 06:57:10 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Joy Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. Well, they say it because he says it. When you're not in your mind, it's so hard to speak it. Better to speak MJ's words, however mindless they are... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 07:10:39 (EST)
Poster: Mili's Email: *.* To: Mili Subject: Work (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: There is no 'YOU'. It is all just individuals. And none of us did any of that. Just like you have nothing to do with Croatia's past or actually you have nothing to do with Croatia's present. A war is going on but you are typing for peace. Of course a Serb would kill you in an instant because he sees you as this 'you' croatian that is responsible for 500 years of whatever. Mili you are too smart to fall for someone elses comment like that. Dont forget we all drink of the same spirit. All completely equally created and also totally unique. The illusions from everybodies theatre performances are hard to see beyond all the time. Les would like me to believe the illusion that maharji can experience more than the wall that Les experiences. Sitting at the door, Les thinks he has merged. Listening to one of Participants tapes, anyone could see that maharaji, when he talks about meditating, clearly does not go beyond what Les is talking about. There is a reason for that. What do you think that reason is? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 09:10:23 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Joy Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. Joy: I was a writing tutor in a grad school with a lot of Indian students, and learned that Indians are taught in their school system to use a lot of passive voice in their writing and communication. My guess is that the phrase 'this life,' etc. was picked up by American premies from Indian Mahatmas. It's a construction that parallels passive voice. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 10:58:21 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Mili Subject: To Mili:Re: Maharaji's Work (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Mili, In response to 'Barb forgot to mention what you did to the Indian nation (and I mean native Americans).' I hope you aren't including me in that 'you'. I wasn't even alive when that happened. I am part Native American. That entire story of what happened to the Native Americans sickens and appalls me. For you to blame anyone posting on here for that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this forum so far. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 11:16:37 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Participant Subject: Participant's gross error (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Refuting JW's claim that about 90% of premies quit, he (she?) wrote: You continually blather out your mind about Maharaji and Knowledge, $6,000,000 a year and 90% of premies leave Maharaji, where do you get these figures but from your mind? In our local community at least a third to a half received Knowledge while Divine Light Mission was active. You admit that aspirants come from premies' friends but refuse to accept that this is because of the inspiring experience of premies' lives that practising Knowledge brings. Many premies in our community who have been meditating for years now have stable and joyful relationships and wonderful lifestyles. How ridiculous. If only ten premies still believed in Maharaji, but happened to be DLM-era suckers, Participant would still be right. In other words, he's saying nothing about the proportion of premies who leave vis-a-vis those who stay. Obvious? Sure. Just thought it should be mentioned. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 12:26:17 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Jim Subject: I give up! (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: So, having read Participant's contributions and Aesop's and The Student's and A premie, I now understand why the guru refers to his followers as idiots. I believe it is a total waste of time trying to communicate with these people. They have been programmed to only believe words coming out of their guru's mouth. All else is lies. How does one communicate with fanatics such as these? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 12:41:34 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: VP Subject: Cutting slack for Mili (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: VP: I am fairly certain Mili did not intend that meaning when he used the pronoun 'you'. Actually, every nation on this earth is as corrupt as every other nation. Every group of people is as corrupt as every other group of people. To imply that Americans are somehow more filled with hatred than other nations is absurd. And to imply that is the reason M is not accepted here is beyond absurd. We have reached new levels of incomprehensible idiocy. So sayeth the humble servant of the truth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 13:00:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: John K. Subject: Re: Cutting slack for Mili (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: VP: I am fairly certain Mili did not intend that meaning when he used the pronoun 'you'. Actually, every nation on this earth is as corrupt as every other nation. Every group of people is as corrupt as every other group of people. To imply that Americans are somehow more filled with hatred than other nations is absurd. And to imply that is the reason M is not accepted here is beyond absurd. We have reached new levels of incomprehensible idiocy. So sayeth the humble servant of the truth. Thanks for the clarification, JK. Of course I wasn't referring to everyone who is reading or posting here. As for M being accepted - I think he is being accepted by those who accept him, and not accepted by those who don't. Simple, eh? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 13:32:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Cutting slack for Mili (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: VP: I am fairly certain Mili did not intend that meaning when he used the pronoun 'you'. Actually, every nation on this earth is as corrupt as every other nation. Every group of people is as corrupt as every other group of people. To imply that Americans are somehow more filled with hatred than other nations is absurd. And to imply that is the reason M is not accepted here is beyond absurd. We have reached new levels of incomprehensible idiocy. So sayeth the humble servant of the truth. John, I don't think it's true that all groups of people are equally corrupt. I'd say, as individuals, we're born with the same capacities to screw each other up and over. But whe we make societies, we make some better than others. For example, nothing in modern American life is anywhere near as ugly as the recent and ongoing atrocities in Mili's homeland. Nothing. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 14:30:14 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Jim Subject: Rich=civilized (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Jim: Yeah, I agree that I probably should have said individuals are the same all over the world. I believe geography and access to natural resources has a great deal to do with why some societies or groups of people seem to do a better job of remaining civilized. For instance, Ireland has always been poorer than its neighbor England. I don't think it's that the Irish nationality is somehow lazier, or less intelligent, or less interested in material gains than the English. That's not it at all. I believe a major reason for their difference is the abundance of natural resources in England compared with Ireland. That allowed the English to trade with other countries and develop a navy and then go out and conquer and rule all over the world which of course made them even richer. One reason America and Canada are relatively peaceful is that once the native peoples were obliterated there was plenty of land and resources, which = opportunity, for the conquerers which is why people are still swarming here from more crowded societies all over the world. One reason the middle east, or central europe, is so full of conflict is the limited resources that everyone must fight over. People are very nice to each other when there is plenty to go around, limit the resources and then another less pretty side of human nature is revealed. so sayeth...blah blah blah Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 14:31:16 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Cutting slack for Mili (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: To John K., I didn't mean to accuse Mili of something he didn't mean to say. I am going by the printed word here and that's what I am responding to. I had a professor once who told me that we should all say what we mean and mean what we say. (I just remembered that Katie told me Mili was Croatian. Is English your second language , Mili? If so, I apologize.) I wasn't implying that America is more filled with hatred than other nations or that this is the reason that M is not accepted here. I did say that I don't think he is very well received here in the mainstream and I think this is in part his own fault for not using the means at his disposal to attract followers in the US. I don't think I am an incomprehesible idiot. So sayeth VP. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:16:25 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: Joy Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. It may be as Scott pointed out, a phrase picked up from the Indian mahatmas. I also get really irritated by those phrases and alot of new age talk (I really hate when people say 'planet'). I think the reason premies use these phrases is to maintain a feeling of exclusiveness. If there's a 'this life', then there must be another life. But 'this life' is so precious, unlike the other one. Somehow it makes someone sound like they know something, when they really don't. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:23:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Rick Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. It may be as Scott pointed out, a phrase picked up from the Indian mahatmas. I also get really irritated by those phrases and alot of new age talk (I really hate when people say 'planet'). I think the reason premies use these phrases is to maintain a feeling of exclusiveness. If there's a 'this life', then there must be another life. But 'this life' is so precious, unlike the other one. Somehow it makes someone sound like they know something, when they really don't. Boy, are you guys really dumb, or just playing dumb? 'This life' means just that - this life, this very life that you are living, now. Not a hypothetical future life or past life, but this life, at this very moment, the life you are living, and not somebody else. That is precious, and that is unique. Is it possible to state it any more clearly? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:43:42 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Just curious . . . why do premies (and M) always refer to 'THIS' Knowledge and 'THIS' life? What's wrong with THE Knowledge, and YOUR life, like everyone else who speaks English would say? Could this be part of the special language that cults create? It always gets on my nerves to hear premies talking about 'this Knowledge' and 'this life'. It may be as Scott pointed out, a phrase picked up from the Indian mahatmas. I also get really irritated by those phrases and alot of new age talk (I really hate when people say 'planet'). I think the reason premies use these phrases is to maintain a feeling of exclusiveness. If there's a 'this life', then there must be another life. But 'this life' is so precious, unlike the other one. Somehow it makes someone sound like they know something, when they really don't. Boy, are you guys really dumb, or just playing dumb? 'This life' means just that - this life, this very life that you are living, now. Not a hypothetical future life or past life, but this life, at this very moment, the life you are living, and not somebody else. That is precious, and that is unique. Is it possible to state it any more clearly? Yes, you banana-head. You say, 'Life is precious. Life is very precious. Life is oh-so precious.' There is no need to specify when the life was, or whose life it is, because that isn't relavent. In other words, Mili, you brain-dead scumsucker, it doesn't matter if it's 'this' life or 'that' life. You don't say 'This sun is shining outside'. It would be needless to specify 'this'. Same as, you don't say to your brother or sister at the dinner table, 'This mother made very good mash potatoes'. There's only one mother at the dinner table. You and your sibling only have one mother, and most of all, every one KNOWS what you're talking about. You vacant blotbrain. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:45:42 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: VP Subject: Cutting slack for myself (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear VP: The Participant said: 'You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji.' That is what I was responding to when I said the idiocy was overflowing on this forum. As if America is somehow so corrupt that the Lord himself cannot save us. Sorry for my unclear communications. My excuse is I write these in between doing stuff at work, so I don't spend a lot of time on them. Hope we are still VF (virtual friends) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:56:02 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: John K. Subject: Posting in bed (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear VP: The Participant said: 'You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji.' That is what I was responding to when I said the idiocy was overflowing on this forum. As if America is somehow so corrupt that the Lord himself cannot save us. Sorry for my unclear communications. My excuse is I write these in between doing stuff at work, so I don't spend a lot of time on them. Hope we are still VF (virtual friends) John K., Hey, I am guilty of misunderstanding communications today. Must be this virus (not a computer one- a real stomach flu). Still VF, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 16:29:29 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Rick Subject: You're so FUNny! (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Rick, you're in rare form today, I laughed out loud when I read 'you vacant blotbrain.' The premies are sent here, by his grace of course, for our endless amusement. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 18:15:52 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: A pre-rejoinder (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Jim and Mili: Regarding: For example, nothing in modern American life is anywhere near as ugly as the recent and ongoing atrocities in Mili's homeland. Nothing. I can see the rejoinder on it's way. There has been an ongoing dilemma involving racial prejudice in this country, but nothing approaching a 'final solution.' Most of the native population throughout the Americas will killed off as a result of diseases introduced by Europeans. On the other hand, syphilis didn't exist in Europe until after contact with the Americas. My grandfather was a settler in the Northwest and lived with the Nez Perce. The constitution of Iroquois confederation served as the model for the balance of powers between the branches of US government. Whatever it's failings the Australians don't refer to the US as the 'Great Republic' for nothing. Denmark actually celebrates United States Independence Day on July 4. It was founded on a noble ideal which has managed to inoculate it against the sort of counter-enlightenment plague that has scourged Europe from time to time over the last century. And had the former Yugoslavia been able to implement the model it would have benefited from that inoculation, and may still. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:13:15 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: A pre-rejoinder (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Jim and Mili: Regarding: For example, nothing in modern American life is anywhere near as ugly as the recent and ongoing atrocities in Mili's homeland. Nothing. I can see the rejoinder on it's way. There has been an ongoing dilemma involving racial prejudice in this country, but nothing approaching a 'final solution.' Most of the native population throughout the Americas will killed off as a result of diseases introduced by Europeans. On the other hand, syphilis didn't exist in Europe until after contact with the Americas. My grandfather was a settler in the Northwest and lived with the Nez Perce. The constitution of Iroquois confederation served as the model for the balance of powers between the branches of US government. Whatever it's failings the Australians don't refer to the US as the 'Great Republic' for nothing. Denmark actually celebrates United States Independence Day on July 4. It was founded on a noble ideal which has managed to inoculate it against the sort of counter-enlightenment plague that has scourged Europe from time to time over the last century. And had the former Yugoslavia been able to implement the model it would have benefited from that inoculation, and may still. -Scott Scott, I think your statement could be misleading. The treatment of Native Americans by the European settlers, and the U.S. government, was nothing short of genocide. The deaths were not simply due to some unfortunate diseases. There 4,000,000 native Americans living in the U.S. in 1800, by 1900 the number was 1,000,000. They were systematically anihilated. Not in gas chambers, but the methods were equally efficient and the result was much the same. Just as one example, in California, during the gold rush of the 1840s and 1850s a bounty of $1 was placed on the heads of Native Americans. Thousands were slaughtered and bounties collected. The Native Americans were moved to ever more desolate and isolated pieces of territory, until value was discovered there, and then they were forced to move again. Much of the death resulted from the inability to forge a living off the land they were given, and not a finger was raised to preserve them or their way of life. Racism is a central part of our history which is probably true of the history of most of the peoples of the planet. Humans seem to have the ability to look at another human and believe they are not truly human and hence they can be used, abused and destroyed. And in this country racism was used by the upper classes to keep the masses divided and fighting each other, so they wouldn't notice how they were being ripped off. In WWII Japanese Americans were locked up in camps because of their race. It wasn't for 50 years that we finally apologized for that little mistake. It continues today, scape-goating immigrants, minorities and women for the problems in this society. I think Americans have been unwilling to face either the Native American genocide, nor the wickeness and abomination of slavery, and the following de-humanization of African Americans. Hell, Americans can't even face the My Lai massacre (30 years ago this month), when our own boys raped and murdered an entire village of helpless women and children. We covered it up and looked the other way. I'm not saying Americans are worse than any other culture, we just seem less willing to face our past and want to pretend that the ability to be so brutal are no longer with us and preach to the rest of the world of our virtues. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:22:33 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Rich=civilized (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: John: Regarding: I believe geography and access to natural resources has a great deal to do with why some societies or groups of people seem to do a better job of remaining civilized. This has been true historically, but there's evidence that it's no longer the case, at least according to Lester Thereau or Michael Porter. There is no evidence, in the postindustrial age, that access to natural resources has anything much to do with economic success. There are plenty of third-world countries that have an abundance of certain resources. Oddly, the variable that seems to have the highest correlation with the ability to maintain a civil society is whether or not the country or nation was ever a colony of Great Britain. Has something to do with the 'rule of law.' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:38:20 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: Re: Posting in bed (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear VP: The Participant said: 'You Americans are so lost in your sick, violent and murderous culture with its poor black and hispanic underclass and its racial prejudices you cannot understand that the debased public media is no place for Maharaji.' That is what I was responding to when I said the idiocy was overflowing on this forum. As if America is somehow so corrupt that the Lord himself cannot save us. Sorry for my unclear communications. My excuse is I write these in between doing stuff at work, so I don't spend a lot of time on them. Hope we are still VF (virtual friends) John K., Hey, I am guilty of misunderstanding communications today. Must be this virus (not a computer one- a real stomach flu). Still VF, VP Hey VP, Sorry to hear that you're under the weather. I had some nasty thang last week which resulted in a fever fluctuating between 101 - 102 F for four days! I still get really worn out after just an hour of moving around the house! Get well soon! Michael Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:47:08 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: JW Subject: Racism (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Well, said, JW. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:52:32 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Posting in bed (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Thanks, Mickey! So far no fever, only aches and the stomach ailments-yuck! I'm glad that you are feeling better. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 19:59:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: JW Subject: Re: A pre-rejoinder (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Jim and Mili: Regarding: For example, nothing in modern American life is anywhere near as ugly as the recent and ongoing atrocities in Mili's homeland. Nothing. I can see the rejoinder on it's way. There has been an ongoing dilemma involving racial prejudice in this country, but nothing approaching a 'final solution.' Most of the native population throughout the Americas will killed off as a result of diseases introduced by Europeans. On the other hand, syphilis didn't exist in Europe until after contact with the Americas. My grandfather was a settler in the Northwest and lived with the Nez Perce. The constitution of Iroquois confederation served as the model for the balance of powers between the branches of US government. Whatever it's failings the Australians don't refer to the US as the 'Great Republic' for nothing. Denmark actually celebrates United States Independence Day on July 4. It was founded on a noble ideal which has managed to inoculate it against the sort of counter-enlightenment plague that has scourged Europe from time to time over the last century. And had the former Yugoslavia been able to implement the model it would have benefited from that inoculation, and may still. -Scott Scott, I think your statement could be misleading. The treatment of Native Americans by the European settlers, and the U.S. government, was nothing short of genocide. The deaths were not simply due to some unfortunate diseases. There 4,000,000 native Americans living in the U.S. in 1800, by 1900 the number was 1,000,000. They were systematically anihilated. Not in gas chambers, but the methods were equally efficient and the result was much the same. Just as one example, in California, during the gold rush of the 1840s and 1850s a bounty of $1 was placed on the heads of Native Americans. Thousands were slaughtered and bounties collected. The Native Americans were moved to ever more desolate and isolated pieces of territory, until value was discovered there, and then they were forced to move again. Much of the death resulted from the inability to forge a living off the land they were given, and not a finger was raised to preserve them or their way of life. Racism is a central part of our history which is probably true of the history of most of the peoples of the planet. Humans seem to have the ability to look at another human and believe they are not truly human and hence they can be used, abused and destroyed. And in this country racism was used by the upper classes to keep the masses divided and fighting each other, so they wouldn't notice how they were being ripped off. In WWII Japanese Americans were locked up in camps because of their race. It wasn't for 50 years that we finally apologized for that little mistake. It continues today, scape-goating immigrants, minorities and women for the problems in this society. I think Americans have been unwilling to face either the Native American genocide, nor the wickeness and abomination of slavery, and the following de-humanization of African Americans. Hell, Americans can't even face the My Lai massacre (30 years ago this month), when our own boys raped and murdered an entire village of helpless women and children. We covered it up and looked the other way. I'm not saying Americans are worse than any other culture, we just seem less willing to face our past and want to pretend that the ability to be so brutal are no longer with us and preach to the rest of the world of our virtues. JW, did I ever tell you that for some strange reason I like you ? I mean, except when we are discussing M and K, I tend to really agree with you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 20:23:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: JW Subject: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: I'm not saying Americans are worse than any other culture, we just seem less willing to face our past and want to pretend that the ability to be so brutal are no longer with us and preach to the rest of the world of our virtues. I like to agree with people when I can, but I think this statement is both typically American, and largely erroneous. No other country on earth has gone through the kind of self-recriminations about it's mistakes as has the US. Not only do we not invest much in telling others about our virtues, but we remain wholly unconvinced of them ourselves. I regularly hear people who are convinced that the US is an irreligious, even sacrilegious nation, when the only country in Christendom that has any claim to being more religious is the Irish Republic (because it is the front line of the Reformation). The proportion of native Americans that died of measles and other non-toxic European diseases was astronomical. By the time of the 1870s virtually 90% of the Native population of the Americas was extinct, not by direct intervention but by neglect and disease. It is extraordinary revisionism to call this 'genocide.' The example of bounty hunting that you mention occurred in a California society that was all-but out of control because it was composed entirely of males. It is atypical. The treatment of Native Americans by the American descendants of Europeans is nothing to be proud of, but it has to be put in the context of the reality that the Western tribes had almost no value for the western settlers. As the Marxist theoretician Michael Oakeshot has observed, cultures that are not even exploitable are in the greatest danger of extinction. It will probably brand me as a bigot to conjecture that had the power situation been reversed the fate of the settlers would have been much worse at the hands of the 'segmented traditional' tribal societies that we now romanticize so readily. All of our cultures emerged from tribal societies, and this process is still going on, but the lives of people in those cultures was 'nasty and short' if not also brutish. The concept of individual rights did not exist on any level. All rights were gained by virtue of your membership in this or that group, and you personal power was entirely dependent upon the power of the group to which you belonged: hence the term 'segmented society.' This little detail is usually overlooked. I'm sorry to come down on you so heavily, but I ascribe the evils you're talking about to the prejudice of individuals, and occasionally to an institutionalized prejudice that was, even by the voice of the opposition at the time, misguided. Race thinking is not racism until it is exploited for the sake of power. No 'great society' has provided a safer haven for individuals of all races than this one, although small mountain societies like the Swiss and the Tibetans have always been a haven of justice, relatively speaking. I highly recommend Ernest Gellner's final book: Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and It's Rivals. Don't get me wrong. This society does not have anything like an abiding virtue. It has 'decency' but not virtue. It's values are noble, but not virtuous. Virtue is a trait or condition of individuals and occasionally of societies, but the deliberate cultivation of virtue will put you in the hold of charisma. In the long run I see that as our fate. That's why I'm so cautious about keeping the past in realistic perspective. We may need the inspiration of our better aspect when push comes to shove, and we ought not to systematically deny it out of misplaced guilt. Civil society does, indeed, have rivals. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 21:04:23 (EST)
Poster: This Scott Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Mili: Regarding: 'This life' means just that - this life, this very life that you are living, now. Not a hypothetical future life or past life, but this life, at this very moment, the life you are living, and not somebody else. I get it. Now your turn. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:29:50 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: I like to agree with people when I can, but I think this statement is both typically American, and largely erroneous. No other country on earth has gone through the kind of self-recriminations about it's mistakes as has the US. Not only do we not invest much in telling others about our virtues, but we remain wholly unconvinced of them ourselves. I regularly hear people who are convinced that the US is an irreligious, even sacrilegious nation, when the only country in Christendom that has any claim to being more religious is the Irish Republic (because it is the front line of the Reformation). The proportion of native Americans that died of measles and other non-toxic European diseases was astronomical. By the time of the 1870s virtually 90% of the Native population of the Americas was extinct, not by direct intervention but by neglect and disease. It is extraordinary revisionism to call this 'genocide.' The example of bounty hunting that you mention occurred in a California society that was all-but out of control because it was composed entirely of males. It is atypical. The treatment of Native Americans by the American descendants of Europeans is nothing to be proud of, but it has to be put in the context of the reality that the Western tribes had almost no value for the western settlers. As the Marxist theoretician Michael Oakeshot has observed, cultures that are not even exploitable are in the greatest danger of extinction. It will probably brand me as a bigot to conjecture that had the power situation been reversed the fate of the settlers would have been much worse at the hands of the 'segmented traditional' tribal societies that we now romanticize so readily. All of our cultures emerged from tribal societies, and this process is still going on, but the lives of people in those cultures was 'nasty and short' if not also brutish. The concept of individual rights did not exist on any level. All rights were gained by virtue of your membership in this or that group, and you personal power was entirely dependent upon the power of the group to which you belonged: hence the term 'segmented society.' This little detail is usually overlooked. I'm sorry to come down on you so heavily, but I ascribe the evils you're talking about to the prejudice of individuals, and occasionally to an institutionalized prejudice that was, even by the voice of the opposition at the time, misguided. Race thinking is not racism until it is exploited for the sake of power. No 'great society' has provided a safer haven for individuals of all races than this one, although small mountain societies like the Swiss and the Tibetans have always been a haven of justice, relatively speaking. I highly recommend Ernest Gellner's final book: Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and It's Rivals. Don't get me wrong. This society does not have anything like an abiding virtue. It has 'decency' but not virtue. It's values are noble, but not virtuous. Virtue is a trait or condition of individuals and occasionally of societies, but the deliberate cultivation of virtue will put you in the hold of charisma. In the long run I see that as our fate. That's why I'm so cautious about keeping the past in realistic perspective. We may need the inspiration of our better aspect when push comes to shove, and we ought not to systematically deny it out of misplaced guilt. Civil society does, indeed, have rivals. -Scott Scott, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree more about how Americans view their 'virtues' and our supposed 'self-recriminations.' As I write this, Clinton is off in Africa espousing American values, which to him seems to amount to free-trade capitalism. He speaks much more for the corporate elite, than he does for average Americans,or for the Africans. For example, through its virtual control of the IMF, the U.S. perpetuates the incredible, astronomical debt of the African countries, which makes it virtually impossible for those governments to take actions to better the conditions of their people. If we were so virtuous, and our government not so in the control of business and banking interests, we might be doing something to get some of that debt forgiven, but instead, Clinton preaches 'democracy' but below the surface that is equated with corporate capitalism, and many would say that is not the best prescription for Africa. This is an example of touting U.S. values to others, which is, in my opinion, done in an hypocritical fashion. I agree that the U.S. is probably the most religious country in the world (probably up there with India and Ireland) and always has been, but the U.S. is probably more fanatically religious than either of those countries, and we all know the bigotry and narrow-mindedness (and wars) that religion can engender, so that is at best a mixed bag, in my opinion. And in Ireland, I would submit that the country is religious partly because people equate being Irish with being Catholic, partly as a political statement, due to years of subjugation by the protestant British. Being an Irish-American myself, I know that tradition pretty well. In other catholic countries, notably France, most of the population does not practice the religion, because they don't identify with it in the same way. Regarding Native Americans, I agree that 'neglect' was the cause of many deaths. But I think 'neglect' can be just as much a tool of genocide as out and out murder. And I don't know how you can say that the deaths were due to some benign force and not ultimately caused by the European settlers. That amounts to genocide in my opinion. There is overwhelming evidence for this; the land was valuable, and so the Native Americans were banished from it, making them more vulnerable to the diseases and starvation that resulted. We call what happened in Bosnia, Cambodia and Kurdistan 'genocides,' (again, our preachy attitude) when many of the deaths there were caused by forced relocation of populations, and the resulting disease, malnutrition, etc. That really isn't any different than what happened to the Native Americans, as they were forced off their lands, murdered, starved, and exterminated if they tried to fight against what was happening to them. Bounties did not only occur in California, by the way, and it was officially sanctioned by the state government, and the U.S. Congress, which appropriated money to California to help pay the bounties. It's an example of the fact that Native Americans weren't considered human. Therefore, once de-humanized, it was possible to treat them like vermin. I think you support that by your astounding statement that 'the Western tribes had not value for the western settlers.' God, is that an EXCUSE? But it basically makes my point. Native Americans were not seen as human, not seen has having extrinsic 'human value,' and were seen in purely economic terms, just like slaves, by the way. I don't think most Americans have recognized that part of our past, and I think they should. It certainly isn't taught that way in our schools, and certainly not portrayed that way in popular culture. And I don't think the 'situation reversed' excuse gets too far. The American state was founded on the supposed principle of the intrinsic equality and rights of each person. [With the exception of Africans and Native Americans, apparently.] Espousing those values, it was all the more appalling that they were so flagrantly violated. And I am more concerned about the prejudice of Americans to avoid the unpleasant parts of our past and not to discuss them. Racism is a primary 'off-limits' subject. American history textbooks are an excellent example of this. If you read a high school history textbook, it basically says that the U.S. started out great and has gotten better ever since. It is so watered down, and the touchy subjects so carefully avoided, that Americans are incredibly ill-informed about the more unsavory parts of our past. I think they need to be recognized and addressed. That way we can avoid repeating them. I know Germany has had an equally hard time addressing the holocaust. But we have to at least try, I think, if we want things to really get better. I say this partly because I detect a new wave of intolerance in our society, and when we have the next economic downturn, I am concerned about what might happen to the rights of racial minorities, and so I don't see this as just some sort of interesting intellectual discussion. BTW-- as an example of how racism was used to keep the lower classes divided in this country, I recommend the book 'How the Irish Became White.' Don't recall the author at the moment, but if I think of it, I'll post it. It's a great book. -- Joe Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:02:25 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: JW Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: I like to agree with people when I can, but I think this statement is both typically American, and largely erroneous. No other country on earth has gone through the kind of self-recriminations about it's mistakes as has the US. Not only do we not invest much in telling others about our virtues, but we remain wholly unconvinced of them ourselves. I regularly hear people who are convinced that the US is an irreligious, even sacrilegious nation, when the only country in Christendom that has any claim to being more religious is the Irish Republic (because it is the front line of the Reformation). The proportion of native Americans that died of measles and other non-toxic European diseases was astronomical. By the time of the 1870s virtually 90% of the Native population of the Americas was extinct, not by direct intervention but by neglect and disease. It is extraordinary revisionism to call this 'genocide.' The example of bounty hunting that you mention occurred in a California society that was all-but out of control because it was composed entirely of males. It is atypical. The treatment of Native Americans by the American descendants of Europeans is nothing to be proud of, but it has to be put in the context of the reality that the Western tribes had almost no value for the western settlers. As the Marxist theoretician Michael Oakeshot has observed, cultures that are not even exploitable are in the greatest danger of extinction. It will probably brand me as a bigot to conjecture that had the power situation been reversed the fate of the settlers would have been much worse at the hands of the 'segmented traditional' tribal societies that we now romanticize so readily. All of our cultures emerged from tribal societies, and this process is still going on, but the lives of people in those cultures was 'nasty and short' if not also brutish. The concept of individual rights did not exist on any level. All rights were gained by virtue of your membership in this or that group, and you personal power was entirely dependent upon the power of the group to which you belonged: hence the term 'segmented society.' This little detail is usually overlooked. I'm sorry to come down on you so heavily, but I ascribe the evils you're talking about to the prejudice of individuals, and occasionally to an institutionalized prejudice that was, even by the voice of the opposition at the time, misguided. Race thinking is not racism until it is exploited for the sake of power. No 'great society' has provided a safer haven for individuals of all races than this one, although small mountain societies like the Swiss and the Tibetans have always been a haven of justice, relatively speaking. I highly recommend Ernest Gellner's final book: Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and It's Rivals. Don't get me wrong. This society does not have anything like an abiding virtue. It has 'decency' but not virtue. It's values are noble, but not virtuous. Virtue is a trait or condition of individuals and occasionally of societies, but the deliberate cultivation of virtue will put you in the hold of charisma. In the long run I see that as our fate. That's why I'm so cautious about keeping the past in realistic perspective. We may need the inspiration of our better aspect when push comes to shove, and we ought not to systematically deny it out of misplaced guilt. Civil society does, indeed, have rivals. -Scott Scott, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree more about how Americans view their 'virtues' and our supposed 'self-recriminations.' As I write this, Clinton is off in Africa espousing American values, which to him seems to amount to free-trade capitalism. He speaks much more for the corporate elite, than he does for average Americans,or for the Africans. For example, through its virtual control of the IMF, the U.S. perpetuates the incredible, astronomical debt of the African countries, which makes it virtually impossible for those governments to take actions to better the conditions of their people. If we were so virtuous, and our government not so in the control of business and banking interests, we might be doing something to get some of that debt forgiven, but instead, Clinton preaches 'democracy' but below the surface that is equated with corporate capitalism, and many would say that is not the best prescription for Africa. This is an example of touting U.S. values to others, which is, in my opinion, done in an hypocritical fashion. I agree that the U.S. is probably the most religious country in the world (probably up there with India and Ireland) and always has been, but the U.S. is probably more fanatically religious than either of those countries, and we all know the bigotry and narrow-mindedness (and wars) that religion can engender, so that is at best a mixed bag, in my opinion. And in Ireland, I would submit that the country is religious partly because people equate being Irish with being Catholic, partly as a political statement, due to years of subjugation by the protestant British. Being an Irish-American myself, I know that tradition pretty well. In other catholic countries, notably France, most of the population does not practice the religion, because they don't identify with it in the same way. Regarding Native Americans, I agree that 'neglect' was the cause of many deaths. But I think 'neglect' can be just as much a tool of genocide as out and out murder. And I don't know how you can say that the deaths were due to some benign force and not ultimately caused by the European settlers. That amounts to genocide in my opinion. There is overwhelming evidence for this; the land was valuable, and so the Native Americans were banished from it, making them more vulnerable to the diseases and starvation that resulted. We call what happened in Bosnia, Cambodia and Kurdistan 'genocides,' (again, our preachy attitude) when many of the deaths there were caused by forced relocation of populations, and the resulting disease, malnutrition, etc. That really isn't any different than what happened to the Native Americans, as they were forced off their lands, murdered, starved, and exterminated if they tried to fight against what was happening to them. Bounties did not only occur in California, by the way, and it was officially sanctioned by the state government, and the U.S. Congress, which appropriated money to California to help pay the bounties. It's an example of the fact that Native Americans weren't considered human. Therefore, once de-humanized, it was possible to treat them like vermin. I think you support that by your astounding statement that 'the Western tribes had not value for the western settlers.' God, is that an EXCUSE? But it basically makes my point. Native Americans were not seen as human, not seen has having extrinsic 'human value,' and were seen in purely economic terms, just like slaves, by the way. I don't think most Americans have recognized that part of our past, and I think they should. It certainly isn't taught that way in our schools, and certainly not portrayed that way in popular culture. And I don't think the 'situation reversed' excuse gets too far. The American state was founded on the supposed principle of the intrinsic equality and rights of each person. [With the exception of Africans and Native Americans, apparently.] Espousing those values, it was all the more appalling that they were so flagrantly violated. And I am more concerned about the prejudice of Americans to avoid the unpleasant parts of our past and not to discuss them. Racism is a primary 'off-limits' subject. American history textbooks are an excellent example of this. If you read a high school history textbook, it basically says that the U.S. started out great and has gotten better ever since. It is so watered down, and the touchy subjects so carefully avoided, that Americans are incredibly ill-informed about the more unsavory parts of our past. I think they need to be recognized and addressed. That way we can avoid repeating them. I know Germany has had an equally hard time addressing the holocaust. But we have to at least try, I think, if we want things to really get better. I say this partly because I detect a new wave of intolerance in our society, and when we have the next economic downturn, I am concerned about what might happen to the rights of racial minorities, and so I don't see this as just some sort of interesting intellectual discussion. BTW-- as an example of how racism was used to keep the lower classes divided in this country, I recommend the book 'How the Irish Became White.' Don't recall the author at the moment, but if I think of it, I'll post it. It's a great book. -- Joe Hey, Joe, I just LOVE what you said here, man! It was REAL. By the way, following the overturning of socialism and the introduction of American-style Parliamentary Democracy we now have three McDonalds restaurants and a Drive-in in Zagreb. The hamburgers taste like shit. No more free medical care. No more free schooling. No more job guarantee and social benefits from the State. Are we an 'Open Democratic Society' now? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:53:19 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: all>Scott, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree more about how Americans view their 'virtues' and our supposed 'self-recriminations.' As I write this, Clinton is off in Africa espousing American values, which to him seems to amount to free-trade capitalism. He speaks much more for the corporate elite, than he does for average Americans,or for the Africans. For example, through its virtual control of the IMF, the U.S. perpetuates the incredible, astronomical debt of the African countries, which makes it virtually impossible for those governments to take actions to better the conditions of their people. If we were so virtuous, and our government not so in the control of business and banking interests, we might be doing something to get some of that debt forgiven, but instead, Clinton preaches 'democracy' but below the surface that is equated with corporate capitalism, and many would say that is not the best prescription for Africa. This is an example of touting U.S. values to others, which is, in my opinion, done in an hypocritical fashion. I agree that the U.S. is probably the most religious country in the world (probably up there with India and Ireland) and always has been, but the U.S. is probably more fanatically religious than either of those countries, and we all know the bigotry and narrow-mindedness (and wars) that religion can engender, so that is at best a mixed bag, in my opinion. And in Ireland, I would submit that the country is religious partly because people equate being Irish with being Catholic, partly as a political statement, due to years of subjugation by the protestant British. Being an Irish-American myself, I know that tradition pretty well. In other catholic countries, notably France, most of the population does not practice the religion, because they don't identify with it in the same way. Regarding Native Americans, I agree that 'neglect' was the cause of many deaths. But I think 'neglect' can be just as much a tool of genocide as out and out murder. And I don't know how you can say that the deaths were due to some benign force and not ultimately caused by the European settlers. That amounts to genocide in my opinion. There is overwhelming evidence for this; the land was valuable, and so the Native Americans were banished from it, making them more vulnerable to the diseases and starvation that resulted. We call what happened in Bosnia, Cambodia and Kurdistan 'genocides,' (again, our preachy attitude) when many of the deaths there were caused by forced relocation of populations, and the resulting disease, malnutrition, etc. That really isn't any different than what happened to the Native Americans, as they were forced off their lands, murdered, starved, and exterminated if they tried to fight against what was happening to them. Bounties did not only occur in California, by the way, and it was officially sanctioned by the state government, and the U.S. Congress, which appropriated money to California to help pay the bounties. It's an example of the fact that Native Americans weren't considered human. Therefore, once de-humanized, it was possible to treat them like vermin. I think you support that by your astounding statement that 'the Western tribes had not value for the western settlers.' God, is that an EXCUSE? But it basically makes my point. Native Americans were not seen as human, not seen has having extrinsic 'human value,' and were seen in purely economic terms, just like slaves, by the way. I don't think most Americans have recognized that part of our past, and I think they should. It certainly isn't taught that way in our schools, and certainly not portrayed that way in popular culture. And I don't think the 'situation reversed' excuse gets too far. The American state was founded on the supposed principle of the intrinsic equality and rights of each person. [With the exception of Africans and Native Americans, apparently.] Espousing those values, it was all the more appalling that they were so flagrantly violated. And I am more concerned about the prejudice of Americans to avoid the unpleasant parts of our past and not to discuss them. Racism is a primary 'off-limits' subject. American history textbooks are an excellent example of this. If you read a high school history textbook, it basically says that the U.S. started out great and has gotten better ever since. It is so watered down, and the touchy subjects so carefully avoided, that Americans are incredibly ill-informed about the more unsavory parts of our past. I think they need to be recognized and addressed. That way we can avoid repeating them. I know Germany has had an equally hard time addressing the holocaust. But we have to at least try, I think, if we want things to really get better. I say this partly because I detect a new wave of intolerance in our society, and when we have the next economic downturn, I am concerned about what might happen to the rights of racial minorities, and so I don't see this as just some sort of interesting intellectual discussion. BTW-- as an example of how racism was used to keep the lower classes divided in this country, I recommend the book 'How the Irish Became White.' Don't recall the author at the moment, but if I think of it, I'll post it. It's a great book. -- Joe Hey, Joe, I just LOVE what you said here, man! It was REAL. By the way, following the overturning of socialism and the introduction of American-style Parliamentary Democracy we now have three McDonalds restaurants and a Drive-in in Zagreb. The hamburgers taste like shit. No more free medical care. No more free schooling. No more job guarantee and social benefits from the State. Are we an 'Open Democratic Society' now? Well, Mili I guess we agree on something. But don't you know? McDonalds is what you get in exchange for no safety net. Isn't it a great and fair exchange? And just think of all those high-paying jobs people can get at McDonalds making french fries. Welcome to the new world order. We don't have free medical care in this country either, at least 40,000,000 have no medical insurance, and the idea of a 'job guarantee' is considered absurd. When Clinton tried to introduced some sort of medical insurance guarantee in 1993, he was almost run from office by a $500,000,000 campaign by the insurance companies. Now we have HMOs everywhere, especially in California, who regularly decide that certain medical care you might need, really isn't necessary becaust it costs too much and might affect their bloated profits. If the Republicans have their way, what is left of free schooling in this country will not be worth attending. Soon we may have vouchers so people can be subsidized to send their kids to private schools, including religiously fanatical schools, further impoverishing our already third-rate public education system. My tax dollars at work. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:19:41 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: JW Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW, Damn good post, again. I don't think it is revisionism to call what happened to the Indians 'genocide.' The trail of tears is just one example. Natives were treated like animals. I feel very fortunate to live here and have the life that I do, and yet it is so important to examine the past mistakes of all societies, America included. I do not want to be blamed for the past, over which I have personally had no control, but I do want to understand it so I can have a positive impact upon the present with my actions and beliefs. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:18:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: JW Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW, Several years ago I read a little book called 'The Rome Club Report'. It was a synopsis of a project by, you guessed it - the United Nations, about the scenarios for world future with regard to population growth, depletion of resources, and so forth. Man, that was SCARY. Here were these eggheads seriously proposing worst kind, average and best scenarios based on computer simulations of demographic, economic and geographic data. They agreed that the world's population was growing almost exponentially, and that raw resources, like oil, were sure to run out in a few decades. Well, they have discovered some new oil in the meantime, and new farming methods and propulsion and energy generation techology (like plasma reactors) will probably be introduced, but still - you get an acute feeling of the limitations of living on a small planet! Anyway, we've only got 30-40 years to go in person, but the future for our children is not looking good. Or, maybe, the United Nations will strighten everything out in time (big joke!). Have you read any H. G. Wells? He was the guy who wrote 'The Time Machine' and 'War of the Worlds', but it's less known that he was an avid historian and social scientist. I love his stuff - I have his 'Brief History of the World' which is a huge book about a thousand pages thick, and a small book called 'The Outlook for Homo Sapiens'. This guy was one of the original English erudite intellectuals, like Charles Darwin and Julian Huxley. Yeah, H.G. Wells was an evolutionist, too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:49:09 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: VP Subject: Re: This reply is too long and involved. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW, Damn good post, again. I don't think it is revisionism to call what happened to the Indians 'genocide.' The trail of tears is just one example. Natives were treated like animals. I feel very fortunate to live here and have the life that I do, and yet it is so important to examine the past mistakes of all societies, America included. I do not want to be blamed for the past, over which I have personally had no control, but I do want to understand it so I can have a positive impact upon the present with my actions and beliefs. VP I agree, VP. And don't get me wrong, I think this is a great country in the sense that people do have the power to change things if they really want to. It takes a lot of hard work, but it really is possible. I think ending the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, and the civil rights movement of the 60s are examples of that. But when, like today, the stock market hits another record high, and it's 'morning in America' with such a strong economy, I think sometimes people don't want to be bothered with any kind of self examination. I don't think people should take personal blame, I just think we need to know where we've come from and not just believe the propoganda. You know, like what is taught in Newt Gingrich's so-called history classes? I espcially found it outrageous when he confidently said women couldn't be soldiers because they get 'infections.' What arrogance and stupidity. The rest of the course seemed to be a pep rally for the 50s, patriachy, military power and the corporate agenda. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:53:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: JW Subject: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: We may have to agree to disagree about a lot of this. I grew up with Native Americans, we lived next to the Colville Reservation for years, and as I said my grandfather lived with the Nez Perce. For the moment, however, regarding: I think you support that by your astounding statement that 'the Western tribes had not value for the western settlers.' God, is that an EXCUSE? I think the point this guy was making is that if a population is not exploitable, and stands in the way of what people regard as progress, then they are in immanent danger of extinction. I was offering as an explanation rather than an excuse. I'm really not much interested in excuses. The African American population was enslaved, but because their labor had value they were never in danger of extinction. This wasn't my point, by the way, it was Oakeshot's. I always thought it was a rather weak argument, to tell the truth. I think Native Americans did have value for the settlers, and their culture certainly had value, but it was a very primitive culture that was not something most Americans could tolerate living in. It has been vastly over-romanticized recently. And next: And I don't think the 'situation reversed' excuse gets too far. The American state was founded on the supposed principle of the intrinsic equality and rights of each person. [With the exception of Africans and Native Americans, apparently.] Espousing those values, it was all the more appalling that they were so flagrantly violated. It is true that Africans and Native Americans have been the exception to the rule, but the underlying aversion to accommodating these populations has to do with the lack of acceptance of 'group' rather than 'individual' rights. However, the concept of 'rights' is ours to begin with. The segmented peoples had no such concept. Your rights status was entirely dependent upon the power of the group you belonged to. When Gunnar Myrdal pointed out in 'The American Dilemma' that most Americans in the 1950s did not believe that blacks had equal opportunities he predicted that the white population would be willing to institutionalize group rights to some degree as a compensation. This led to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. The Native American Tribes are treated much better in Canada, for instance, which has a tradition of institutionalizing group rights, an outgrowth of the Tory concept of 'noblesse oblige.' Native American Tribes have an official status under Canadian law that is roughly equivalent to a minor province. I am not saying that all of the consequence of American values is good. The Whig tradition in the US is quite intolerant of deviance. However, on balance, people (largely white but also Asians recently, as well as Caribbean blacks) have done quite well under it, and I think it has greater promise of fulfilling the human spirit than any competitors so far. The primary handicap of the African American, as well as the Native American population now (as opposed to in the past) is the fact that they have either only recently emerged from a rural peasant culture (in the case of the African Americans) or have not yet emerged (in the case of the Native Americans). We can argue forever about past sins, but the dilemma is what will happen from now on. If the pattern followed by other rural peasant cultures, like the Polish immigrants in the early part of this century, holds then African Americans (who only began to compete on equal footing in the 1960s) will have established their place within about a generation. I study this stuff empirically, and the socio-economic as well as the educational achievement gap is narrowing. It will be all but gone in 50 years... tops. In a way it will be exciting to watch this change, because most people don't expect it. Regards, Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 18:18:23 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: We may have to agree to disagree about a lot of this. I grew up with Native Americans, we lived next to the Colville Reservation for years, and as I said my grandfather lived with the Nez Perce. For the moment, however, regarding: I think you support that by your astounding statement that 'the Western tribes had not value for the western settlers.' God, is that an EXCUSE? I think the point this guy was making is that if a population is not exploitable, and stands in the way of what people regard as progress, then they are in immanent danger of extinction. I was offering as an explanation rather than an excuse. I'm really not much interested in excuses. The African American population was enslaved, but because their labor had value they were never in danger of extinction. This wasn't my point, by the way, it was Oakeshot's. I always thought it was a rather weak argument, to tell the truth. I think Native Americans did have value for the settlers, and their culture certainly had value, but it was a very primitive culture that was not something most Americans could tolerate living in. It has been vastly over-romanticized recently. And next: And I don't think the 'situation reversed' excuse gets too far. The American state was founded on the supposed principle of the intrinsic equality and rights of each person. [With the exception of Africans and Native Americans, apparently.] Espousing those values, it was all the more appalling that they were so flagrantly violated. It is true that Africans and Native Americans have been the exception to the rule, but the underlying aversion to accommodating these populations has to do with the lack of acceptance of 'group' rather than 'individual' rights. However, the concept of 'rights' is ours to begin with. The segmented peoples had no such concept. Your rights status was entirely dependent upon the power of the group you belonged to. When Gunnar Myrdal pointed out in 'The American Dilemma' that most Americans in the 1950s did not believe that blacks had equal opportunities he predicted that the white population would be willing to institutionalize group rights to some degree as a compensation. This led to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. The Native American Tribes are treated much better in Canada, for instance, which has a tradition of institutionalizing group rights, an outgrowth of the Tory concept of 'noblesse oblige.' Native American Tribes have an official status under Canadian law that is roughly equivalent to a minor province. I am not saying that all of the consequence of American values is good. The Whig tradition in the US is quite intolerant of deviance. However, on balance, people (largely white but also Asians recently, as well as Caribbean blacks) have done quite well under it, and I think it has greater promise of fulfilling the human spirit than any competitors so far. The primary handicap of the African American, as well as the Native American population now (as opposed to in the past) is the fact that they have either only recently emerged from a rural peasant culture (in the case of the African Americans) or have not yet emerged (in the case of the Native Americans). We can argue forever about past sins, but the dilemma is what will happen from now on. If the pattern followed by other rural peasant cultures, like the Polish immigrants in the early part of this century, holds then African Americans (who only began to compete on equal footing in the 1960s) will have established their place within about a generation. I study this stuff empirically, and the socio-economic as well as the educational achievement gap is narrowing. It will be all but gone in 50 years... tops. In a way it will be exciting to watch this change, because most people don't expect it. Regards, Scott First, I'm glad you think that the economic/exploitable value argument is weak. I certainly agree, and I also think it's somewhat offensive, frankly. And whether a culture has 'value' or not is a pretty subjective thing, perhaps the invading culture is too 'primitive' to recognize the value of the population it is destroying. But then, of course, that doesn't even get to the issue of the intrinsic value or people as human beings, something the U.S. supposedly stood for from it's very beginning and because it did, the treatment of other races was even more appalling. And again, it does nothing to mitigate or argue against that the way the Native Americans were treated amounted to genocide, your argument just helps explain why it happened. (i.e. the Americans couldn't 'tolerate' living in Native American culture (and vice versa, apparently), but then, of course Americans were also not willing to give up any part of the land mass so that Native Americans could live independently, either. And since the Native Americans had no recourse and no rights, they were in kind of a bind, don't you think?) Regarding institutionalizing African American rights, the 'some degree' element must be emphasized. Prior to WWII, there was almost no African Americans in the middle or upper classes in the U.S. The American white power structure did become willing to allow a certain number of African Americans into the middle class, but only a certain number. It is not willing to accommodate beyond that, despite centuries of discrimination, abuse and lack of opportunities for the racial minority. Hence, the current attacks on affirmative action, and the claims of the mythical reverse discrimination that is supposedly occurring to white men. Louis Gates new book is excellent on this subject. One of the best analyses I have ever read. Regarding the aversion to 'group' as opposed to 'individual' rights, keep in mind also, that the white majority set up structures like segregation to keep blacks from assimilating into the culture as individuals. Hence, when the pot finally boiled, it was a clear black/white, group vs. group situation. This of course, was caused by prior white discrimination. Even when blacks attempted to exercise 'individual' rights by voting, etc. they were often prevented from doing so, even as individuals, and not as a group. And clearly, many blacks were part of this culture, which included the concept of 'rights' long before my ancestors even showed up in this country. So, I don't think that distinction has much meaning either, when it came to African Americans. I think your characterization of groups doing well under our system, might be better for non-Africans and non-Native Americans. Obviously, they had somewhat less handicaps, not being slaves or exterminated. This is, I'm sure you realize, that those other groups came to this country VOLUNTARILY, and not in chains, and were not invaded by outsiders who stole their land and murdered them if they became too much trouble. But the historical treatment of Asians in California is abominable as well, although it certainly has improved. I think your statment that African Americans, who have been in this country hundreds of years longer than my ancestors, have 'only recently emerged from a rural peasant culture' is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. It also ignores the cause of the 'stunted' development -- the population that was subjugating them and keeping them from much of any development, unless it benefited the white race economically. As to African Americans, the middle class is larger, but we still have a 45% poverty rate in that group. The gap between the groups is widening, and one in three African American men encounter the criminal justice system. The educational system is inherently unequal and inadequate for those who need it most (Savage Inequalities -- Jonothan Kozal is a great explanation of that). So, maybe things will get better, but with the end of high-paying blue collar jobs, the question is whether economic parity even approaching some sort of minimal equality is likely in the forseeable future, without some pretty drastic action, and we are moving in the other direction. As an example of going in the opposite direction, the UC system ended affirmative action in admissions last year. As a result the number of African Americans at UC Berkeley law school dropped from over 30 to zero. Medical schools are reporting similar drops. It's very frightening to think we could move so quickly in the opposite direction. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 18:45:32 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: And one more thing, Scott. I wouldn't put too much stock in comparing the experience of Polish Americans to African Americans. The Poles are, after all, white. Moreover, I strongly disagree that African Americans have been put on 'equal footing' since the 60s. That is the illusion most Americans, encouraged by that apologist for racism Dinesh D'Souza, would like to believe, but the statistics show otherwise. Racisim is still a very strong element in this culture and it's ludicrous to think it isn't. For example, remember the studies a few years ago that sent white and black job applicants to job interviews with identical skills and experience? Remember that the white candidates were something like seven times more likely to get hired? Not exactly 'equal footing' if you ask me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 19:14:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: JW and Scott Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear JW and Scott - both of you are so much more well-informed than I am that I can't hope to argue on the same level. I do want to agree with JW in disagreeing with Scott's 'peasant class' hypothesis (did you get that?). My grandparents were Swedish, and were actively discriminated against (believe it or not) in Connecticut, because they were Swedish. As a result and in an attempt to fit in and avoid discrimination, they stopped speaking Swedish and following Swedish customs, named their children very 'English' names, and generally tried to distance themselves from their culture. Of course, they succeeded in this assimilation - at least for my generation, and almost completely for my parent's generation - because they were white and pretty much looked like everyone else. I have lived in several regions of the country and found that people are most prejudiced against people who LOOK different. Thus discrimination against black people, Indians (Native Americans), Asians, and women, is most apparent and it is the hardest to stop. There's no way that I can 'pass' as a man, for example. Anyway, I am enjoying your discussion, and hope both of you are too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 19:49:53 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear JW and Scott - both of you are so much more well-informed than I am that I can't hope to argue on the same level. I do want to agree with JW in disagreeing with Scott's 'peasant class' hypothesis (did you get that?). My grandparents were Swedish, and were actively discriminated against (believe it or not) in Connecticut, because they were Swedish. As a result and in an attempt to fit in and avoid discrimination, they stopped speaking Swedish and following Swedish customs, named their children very 'English' names, and generally tried to distance themselves from their culture. Of course, they succeeded in this assimilation - at least for my generation, and almost completely for my parent's generation - because they were white and pretty much looked like everyone else. I have lived in several regions of the country and found that people are most prejudiced against people who LOOK different. Thus discrimination against black people, Indians (Native Americans), Asians, and women, is most apparent and it is the hardest to stop. There's no way that I can 'pass' as a man, for example. Anyway, I am enjoying your discussion, and hope both of you are too. My father's side of the family is half Irish and half Dane. Both groups arrived in the mid-1800s and several were immediately drafted into the civil war, farmed and/or worked on the railroads. The Irish ancestors also discriminated against in Pennsylvania, where the portestant majority feared the large number of Catholic Irish immigrants who were fleeing the famine. Some churches were burned down, and so the Irish tended to band together more than they might have otherwise. Also, their catholicism, and parochial school system they set up, made them obviously different. The 'no nothing' party in the U.S. was largely formed as an anti-immigration political party, formed as a result of the large number of Irish immigrants in the Northeast, and German immigrants, mostly coming to the Midwest. Anyhow, being white, they assimilated into the white workforce. They didn't change their last names, but first names like Eamon, Liam, etc. were changed to Mike and John. Now, Irish Americans are one of the more economically successful ethnic groups in the U.S., second only to Jews, I think. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 21:58:02 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: JW Subject: Yet another. The topic is irresistable. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: I agree with most of what you say, basically. I want to pick on you briefly regarding this statement: I think your statment that African Americans, who have been in this country hundreds of years longer than my ancestors, have 'only recently emerged from a rural peasant culture' is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. It also ignores the cause of the 'stunted' development -- the population that was subjugating them and keeping them from much of any development, unless it benefited the white race economically. The black migration from the rural south to the urban north at the beginning of the century was described by David Halberstam as the most under-reported story in the 20th century. For all practical purposes the African American population was, in 1963, in very roughly the same condition as the 'famine Irish.' It took the latter only two generations to move up the ladder to become the mainstream, against the likes of the 'Know Nothings' and the Nativist Movement. All of the incoming immigrant groups came in competing with the black population, but were able to move past them because of the institutionalized subjugation you're talking about. As for ignoring the cause of the stunted development, I'm not ignoring it--I just think it's irrelevant other than on a personal level. The point here, and I think Tony Brown would agree wholeheartedly, is to change the socio-economic conditions of the black (and white) underclass. There is no doubt whatever that the black population of this country was subjugated prior to 1960s. There is a great deal of doubt that there is any institutionally sanctioned subjugation now. I suggest that in addition to the inflammatory reading you've been doing you also check out Jim Sleeper. It's about the role of the African American activist leadership in perpetuating the underclass status of the black ghetto in New York. I don't think initiating a guilt campaign is likely to have much of a dividend. For one thing it's making the white population angry, since most of them know that they haven't contributed to institutionalized racism. It's also not especially good for ridding the land of non-institutionalized racial prejudice. (Check Sleeper out on the flight of liberal New York Jews from black neighborhoods, after an heroic effort to stick it out. In his words, 'They just got tired of stepping over bodies.') I'm a public policy person, so I'm much more oriented toward solving social problems that fixing guilt or past responsibility. Most of the people who perpetrated the evils you're talking about are long dead. I disagree that the US has not indulged in self-examination over these issues. This periodic self-examination takes place, according to Samuel Huntington, in 60 year cycles. He calls it a period of 'creedal passion' in which Americans realize that there is a discrepancy between their underlying creed (which, by the way, is what makes you an American) and the institutions and social conventions of the day. According to Huntington the last period of creedal passion occurred in the 1960s and ended with Watergate. If he's right we are due for another one in the 2020s. Be forewarned. Regards, Scott PS - Perhaps we could continue this offline. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 22:12:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Katie: Regarding: I do want to agree with JW in disagreeing with Scott's 'peasant class' hypothesis (did you get that?). My grandparents were Swedish, and were actively discriminated against (believe it or not) in Connecticut, because they were Swedish. As a result and in an attempt to fit in and avoid discrimination, they stopped speaking Swedish and following Swedish customs, named their children very 'English' names, and generally tried to distance themselves from their culture. Of course, they succeeded in this assimilation - at least for my generation, and almost completely for my parent's generation - because they were white and pretty much looked like everyone else. I'm not saying that people are not discriminated against for reasons having to do with their background. Note the reference to the Famine Irish above. The point I'm making is that discrimination will not keep people from becoming successful as individuals or as a group. How else do you explain how long it took the Polish Christians to gain that status, compared to Polish Jews? Jews in Poland were forbidden from owning land, so their only recourse was to develop more urban skills, and to cultivate a predisposition to linguistics that derives from study of the Talmud. Note that our friend Mili has this predisposition, as does the founder of Deconstructionsim, Jacques Derrida. Having these skills is a formula for success in this country, regardless of how you choose to deal with discrimination. I don't know why this is so hard for whites to understand. Much of the new black leadership gets it. I guess we just have a predisposition for feeling guilty about what our ancestors did, whether it does anyone any good or not. Regards, Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 00:05:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: JW Subject: Assimilation or dissolution. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: Now, Irish Americans are one of the more economically successful ethnic groups in the U.S., second only to Jews, I think. No argument. You're making my point. My first girlfriend in HS just discovered this year that she's Jewish. The family thought they were German Catholics. The kind of assimilation you're talking about, changing names and stuff, was certainly a result of an effort to counteract discrimination by the dominant ethnic group, but the primary assimilation was engendered by the subscription to the American Ideology by both Catholics and Jews. There were a very large number of Jews that came over in the first wave of immigration in the 1700s. As Edward Tiryakian writes: 'At the heart of American exceptionalism concerning Jews... is that, while, for Jews, the United States is not and cannot be ontologically and existentially 'the Land' the way that Israel is, it has been more of a rewarding and accepting home than any other setting outside of Israel itself.' One of the fundamental tenets of the American Ideology concerns the notion of equality, but there is a complicated contest within liberalism over what equality means. Equality in the American sense, however, has never meant anything other than two things: equal opportunity and equal respect. It has never meant equality of economic outcome. All of this lead to a dilemma for some of the immigrant peoples who had a desire to remain steadfast in the old cultural traditions. What they feared, and with good reason, was dissolution. A young woman, Rebecca Samuels, writing home to her parents from Virginia in 1791 said: '... As for the Gentiles, we have nothing to complain about... Jew and Gentile are as one. There is not galut here... You cannot know what a wonderful country this is for the common man... [but] Dear parents, I know quite well you will not want me to bring up my children like Gentiles. Here they cannot become anything else. Jewishness is pushed aside [by the Jews... I crave to see a synagogue to which I can go.' The point here is that Judaism found, in the US, a competing ideology or quasi-religious platform. They readily subscribed to it and as a result the mother culture almost always began to dissolve. As Lipset observes, the colonial Jews had vanished by 1800, and by 1880 the German Jews (my girlfriend's ancestors) had nearly disappeared as an identifiable culture. This was partly due to intermarriage, partly due (at least in the early stages) to ethnic discrimination, but it was mainly due to the conversion of these cultural groups to a new culture that fulfilled their longings. The primary method of assimilation is not ethnic but ideological, and it was and is largely voluntary. Regards, Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 00:07:52 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Katie: Regarding: I do want to agree with JW in disagreeing with Scott's 'peasant class' hypothesis (did you get that?). My grandparents were Swedish, and were actively discriminated against (believe it or not) in Connecticut, because they were Swedish. As a result and in an attempt to fit in and avoid discrimination, they stopped speaking Swedish and following Swedish customs, named their children very 'English' names, and generally tried to distance themselves from their culture. Of course, they succeeded in this assimilation - at least for my generation, and almost completely for my parent's generation - because they were white and pretty much looked like everyone else. I'm not saying that people are not discriminated against for reasons having to do with their background. Note the reference to the Famine Irish above. The point I'm making is that discrimination will not keep people from becoming successful as individuals or as a group. How else do you explain how long it took the Polish Christians to gain that status, compared to Polish Jews? Jews in Poland were forbidden from owning land, so their only recourse was to develop more urban skills, and to cultivate a predisposition to linguistics that derives from study of the Talmud. Note that our friend Mili has this predisposition, as does the founder of Deconstructionsim, Jacques Derrida. Having these skills is a formula for success in this country, regardless of how you choose to deal with discrimination. I don't know why this is so hard for whites to understand. Much of the new black leadership gets it. I guess we just have a predisposition for feeling guilty about what our ancestors did, whether it does anyone any good or not. Regards, Scott Scot, this analysis is faulty because it doesn't consider the DEGREE of the discrimination. Obviously there is a big difference between discrimination in employment or property rights, on the one hand, and slavery and genocide on the other. (In the case of African Americans and Native Americans) Obviously, even discrimination can be overcome to some degree, and in some ways, for example, even segregation can have certain advantages in holding a culture together. And I entirely disagree that there is a predisposition to feel guilty about what our ancestors did. In fact, I think the predisposition is the opposite -- to ignore what our ancestors did. That was my point. But guilt is beside the point; it's more recognizing what happened to understand the roots of where we are today, and how we progress towards the future. Also, in Poland Jews were given property rights and access to most professions. Moreover, there were plenty of successful Polish Christians as well, in all aspects of the society, so I guess I don't get the distinction you are making. And just because peoples can advance despite discrimination, is no reason to downplay it's negative effects. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 00:13:03 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Another long one, sorry. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Katie: Regarding: I do want to agree with JW in disagreeing with Scott's 'peasant class' hypothesis (did you get that?). My grandparents were Swedish, and were actively discriminated against (believe it or not) in Connecticut, because they were Swedish. As a result and in an attempt to fit in and avoid discrimination, they stopped speaking Swedish and following Swedish customs, named their children very 'English' names, and generally tried to distance themselves from their culture. Of course, they succeeded in this assimilation - at least for my generation, and almost completely for my parent's generation - because they were white and pretty much looked like everyone else. I'm not saying that people are not discriminated against for reasons having to do with their background. Note the reference to the Famine Irish above. The point I'm making is that discrimination will not keep people from becoming successful as individuals or as a group. How else do you explain how long it took the Polish Christians to gain that status, compared to Polish Jews? Jews in Poland were forbidden from owning land, so their only recourse was to develop more urban skills, and to cultivate a predisposition to linguistics that derives from study of the Talmud. Note that our friend Mili has this predisposition, as does the founder of Deconstructionsim, Jacques Derrida. Having these skills is a formula for success in this country, regardless of how you choose to deal with discrimination. I don't know why this is so hard for whites to understand. Much of the new black leadership gets it. I guess we just have a predisposition for feeling guilty about what our ancestors did, whether it does anyone any good or not. Regards, Scott Scott, this analysis does not take into consideration the DEGREE of the discrimination. Obviously there is a big difference between discrimination in employment or property rights, on the one hand, and slavery and genocide on the other. And the results can be equally different. Jews in Poland were eventually given property rights and access to the professions in Poland, and lots of Polish Christians did extremely well while the Jews were discriminated against. If what you are saying is that discrimination can have the effect of causing those discriminated against to develop new skills to cope, that might be true, but it doesn't make it any less negative. Now, you can't rerun history to see where these people would have been were they NOT discriminated against, now can you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 00:25:06 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Assimilation or dissolution. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: Now, Irish Americans are one of the more economically successful ethnic groups in the U.S., second only to Jews, I think. No argument. You're making my point. My first girlfriend in HS just discovered this year that she's Jewish. The family thought they were German Catholics. The kind of assimilation you're talking about, changing names and stuff, was certainly a result of an effort to counteract discrimination by the dominant ethnic group, but the primary assimilation was engendered by the subscription to the American Ideology by both Catholics and Jews. There were a very large number of Jews that came over in the first wave of immigration in the 1700s. As Edward Tiryakian writes: 'At the heart of American exceptionalism concerning Jews... is that, while, for Jews, the United States is not and cannot be ontologically and existentially 'the Land' the way that Israel is, it has been more of a rewarding and accepting home than any other setting outside of Israel itself.' One of the fundamental tenets of the American Ideology concerns the notion of equality, but there is a complicated contest within liberalism over what equality means. Equality in the American sense, however, has never meant anything other than two things: equal opportunity and equal respect. It has never meant equality of economic outcome. All of this lead to a dilemma for some of the immigrant peoples who had a desire to remain steadfast in the old cultural traditions. What they feared, and with good reason, was dissolution. A young woman, Rebecca Samuels, writing home to her parents from Virginia in 1791 said: '... As for the Gentiles, we have nothing to complain about... Jew and Gentile are as one. There is not galut here... You cannot know what a wonderful country this is for the common man... [but] Dear parents, I know quite well you will not want me to bring up my children like Gentiles. Here they cannot become anything else. Jewishness is pushed aside [by the Jews... I crave to see a synagogue to which I can go.' The point here is that Judaism found, in the US, a competing ideology or quasi-religious platform. They readily subscribed to it and as a result the mother culture almost always began to dissolve. As Lipset observes, the colonial Jews had vanished by 1800, and by 1880 the German Jews (my girlfriend's ancestors) had nearly disappeared as an identifiable culture. This was partly due to intermarriage, partly due (at least in the early stages) to ethnic discrimination, but it was mainly due to the conversion of these cultural groups to a new culture that fulfilled their longings. The primary method of assimilation is not ethnic but ideological, and it was and is largely voluntary. Regards, Scott Scott, my point about Irish economic success in the U.S. was that it was largely due to the fact that they were WHITE, or at least not impeded by white racism because they ARE white. THAT was my point, it's something African and Native Americans are not, and hence they cannot overcome the racism of whites by assimilation. So, I don't think it does support your point, but now I'm not sure what your pont is, it appears to have changed. And, again, I don't believe anyone has said that the American ideals of equality means equality of economic outcome. Instead, what I said was that the extreme INEQUALITY of economic outcome can be evidence of the lack of equality of opportunity and respect. I think the discrepancies in the employment results in that study I mentioned earlier, is evidence that there isn't equality of economic opportunity for African Americans in this coiuntry. . And as far as holding on to old cultural traditions, African Americans have not done that, so that point is kind of irrlelevant too. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 00:59:42 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Yet another. The topic is irresistable. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: I agree with most of what you say, basically. I want to pick on you briefly regarding this statement: I think your statment that African Americans, who have been in this country hundreds of years longer than my ancestors, have 'only recently emerged from a rural peasant culture' is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. It also ignores the cause of the 'stunted' development -- the population that was subjugating them and keeping them from much of any development, unless it benefited the white race economically. The black migration from the rural south to the urban north at the beginning of the century was described by David Halberstam as the most under-reported story in the 20th century. For all practical purposes the African American population was, in 1963, in very roughly the same condition as the 'famine Irish.' It took the latter only two generations to move up the ladder to become the mainstream, against the likes of the 'Know Nothings' and the Nativist Movement. All of the incoming immigrant groups came in competing with the black population, but were able to move past them because of the institutionalized subjugation you're talking about. As for ignoring the cause of the stunted development, I'm not ignoring it--I just think it's irrelevant other than on a personal level. The point here, and I think Tony Brown would agree wholeheartedly, is to change the socio-economic conditions of the black (and white) underclass. There is no doubt whatever that the black population of this country was subjugated prior to 1960s. There is a great deal of doubt that there is any institutionally sanctioned subjugation now. I suggest that in addition to the inflammatory reading you've been doing you also check out Jim Sleeper. It's about the role of the African American activist leadership in perpetuating the underclass status of the black ghetto in New York. I don't think initiating a guilt campaign is likely to have much of a dividend. For one thing it's making the white population angry, since most of them know that they haven't contributed to institutionalized racism. It's also not especially good for ridding the land of non-institutionalized racial prejudice. (Check Sleeper out on the flight of liberal New York Jews from black neighborhoods, after an heroic effort to stick it out. In his words, 'They just got tired of stepping over bodies.') I'm a public policy person, so I'm much more oriented toward solving social problems that fixing guilt or past responsibility. Most of the people who perpetrated the evils you're talking about are long dead. I disagree that the US has not indulged in self-examination over these issues. This periodic self-examination takes place, according to Samuel Huntington, in 60 year cycles. He calls it a period of 'creedal passion' in which Americans realize that there is a discrepancy between their underlying creed (which, by the way, is what makes you an American) and the institutions and social conventions of the day. According to Huntington the last period of creedal passion occurred in the 1960s and ended with Watergate. If he's right we are due for another one in the 2020s. Be forewarned. Regards, Scott PS - Perhaps we could continue this offline. Scott, I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion as it's very off topic, but again Scott, I think you make my point. The Irish were able to become 'white' because there was a black subjugated population to contrast with. That's what makes African Americans different and why simple 'institutional' changes in laws and procedures does not eliminate racism that helps keep them subjugated. Those making the decisions still tend to favor those who look like them. And those making the decisions are verwhelmingly white. Studies done on hiring practices show this, for example. That isn't written down anywhere, but I would submit that it is just as institutionalized as were the Jim Crow laws. As for stunted development being irrelevent on a personal level, tell that to the qualified black candidates in that study who didn't get hired because of their race. Tell that to the San Francisco police department which has been under court order for years, because they refused to hire blacks or Asians in a city that is less than 40% white. That's pretty institutional if you ask me, and this is 35 years after the civil rights act. And I don't think guilt has anything to do with it. Maybe we have had periods of self-examination, I would just suggest that this is not one of them. And it's obviously true that racism and discrimination are not the cause of all problems for any group of people, or any individual. It is more complicated than that. I'm just reacting to the recent spate of pundits saying that racism isn't occurring anymore, that it's just a thing of the past. They get a good hearing, because that's what most white people would like to hear and believe. Look, my partner is African American. I have learned a lot from him about how internalized and institutionalized racism still is. I think most white people, mostly because they probably know no blacks on a personal basis, would really know much about that. It's easy to think it doesn't exist in the abstract theories of things. But outside the ivory towers, it exists on the ground and I have seen it, something my white privilege did not allow me to see until I spent time interacting with others with my partner. Now, we get stopped by the police for no reason other than he is black and we are driving a nice car in a well-off neighborhood, (my partner is a bank executive but is nonetheless terrified by what might happen to him in the criminal justice system, with very good reason, and most of his black middle class black friends feel the same way, at least the males), we get followed in stores, sometimes white people cross to the other side of the street, etc, etc,....It really does exist, but whites don't want to talk about it. Such is our extreme lack of self-examination. The racism is so rooted in us, and not just in dead people. And politics and corruption in the black leadership doesn't mitigate those facts. And conflicts between blacks and other minorites doesn't either. Whites contribute to institutionalized racism to the extent they enjoy and take advantage of white privilege, and what white person doesn't do that? They aren't intentionally being racist, but it takes a lot of consciouness-raising to see just how institutionalized racism really is. It has nothing to do with 'guilt.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 01:48:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: JW and Scott Subject: Re: Yet another. The topic is irresistable. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: dear JW & Scott - As you probaby know, I live in Missouri. I worked with a black man (up until last summer, when he left to go to law school at Tulane) and I can testify to what JW is saying. The person I worked with was half white (his mom and grandmother, who raised him, were white) and spoke and dressed very conservatively, yet he still got pulled over and harassed by the police (and got harrassed by local white people) for no reason other than the color of his skin. I understand at least a little bit of this because I have been harassed by black men for being a white woman in a predominantly black city (Washington, DC). I still know, however, that if the cops were called, I'd have an advantage over the black men because I am white. I think this is prejudiced, even though the prejudice in this case would work in my favor. Scott, although I know you live in NOVA now, I wonder if the reason that you haven't experienced these things is because you grew up in the Pacific Northwest. (I don't mean to say you're naive - my partner grew up in the Upper Midwest and had similar feelings until he lived in the South). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:55:19 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: To Scott (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott, Are you a historian or history teache?r. Could you possibly just know so much history as a pass time? I was always interested in history but have difficulty remembering the facts in their correct time line. I enjoy reading your historical posts. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 15:58:12 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Scott and JW Subject: Re: To Scott and JW (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: If I keep hangin' around here I may learn something! VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 23:31:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: To Scott (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Robyn: I'm not a history teacher. I found history to be quite boring as a kid and had the same problem remembering things in the right order. I found it's easy to remember history if you approach it thematically. I think someone mentioned something about Attila the Hun having hounded Genghis Kahn out of Europe. Thematically that doesn't fit, because these 'hordes' that sweep through civilization from time to time have a purpose. The Scythians were another bunch. Then the Vikings in a more recent era. They sort of wipe the slate clean so that civilization can reboot. I have no real reason for doubting the info about the Hun, except that it just doesn't make sense in terms of the story as I see it now. Will have to look it up. Hope I haven't put my foot in it. Incidentally, everyone knows that Genghis Kahn made his mark as a great conquerer, but few are aware that his wife Sylvia was the person who introduced the 'feather boa' to the fashion world. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:31:42 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Genghis & Sylvia vs. Attila & Betty (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Robyn: I'm not a history teacher. I found history to be quite boring as a kid and had the same problem remembering things in the right order. I found it's easy to remember history if you approach it thematically. I think someone mentioned something about Attila the Hun having hounded Genghis Kahn out of Europe. Thematically that doesn't fit, because these 'hordes' that sweep through civilization from time to time have a purpose. The Scythians were another bunch. Then the Vikings in a more recent era. They sort of wipe the slate clean so that civilization can reboot. I have no real reason for doubting the info about the Hun, except that it just doesn't make sense in terms of the story as I see it now. Will have to look it up. Hope I haven't put my foot in it. Incidentally, everyone knows that Genghis Kahn made his mark as a great conquerer, but few are aware that his wife Sylvia was the person who introduced the 'feather boa' to the fashion world. -Scott Robyn: At·ti·la Called 'the Scourge of the Gods': (A.D. 406?-453) King of the Huns (433?-453) and the most successful of the barbarian invaders of the Roman Empire. Gen·ghis Khan Originally Temujin: (A.D. 1162?-1227) Mongol conqueror who united the Mongol tribes and in 1206 took the name Genghis Khan ('supreme conqueror'). He annexed northern China, central Asia, Iran, and southern Russia. I was right. They were not even in the same millenium. The Scythians were around between 800 and 400 BC. It looks like these nomadic hordes wiped the slate clean about every 600 to 800 years. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 11:23:37 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: To Scott (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: And what a fashion statement it was! Can't believe it lasted so long. Amazing! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:45:51 (EST)
Poster: Participant Email: To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Work Message: First, a general response to those of you who answered my 2nd post especially JW and Brian. What part of 'satire' don't you understand? I tried to put my post into '70's premie language' and I was deliberately trying to match the sarcastic, smugly infuriated tone of your posts. Seems like I succeeded. For this post I am going to try to be serious. To VP: I don't believe defending attacks on the USA is best done by acknowledging the existence of a large white underclass as well. In my country all citizens receive substantial government benefits if they are unable to support themselves adequately. We believe any society of decent human beings would do the same. You seem like a nice, polite young person so I suggest you have a talk with your parents about your presence on this forum. They gave you sensible advice and acted wisely when you were interested in Knowledge when younger and I'm sure they would advise you to put the time you spend on this forum to more appropriate uses. If you want to know more about Knowledge I suggest you talk to your close relatives who have direct involvement and compare what they say with how they live and see if the two aspects correlate. A very high percentage of information on the Internet is nonsense and you have no way of knowing what the people posting on this forum are really like. Of course I don't believe that Prem Pal Singh Rawat has any direct influence on the value of various Asian currencies. However I will explain the use of the term 'by his grace' which I used satirically to press a few buttons. This is a shorthand used by premies to denote the ongoing positive flow of events in our individual lives that occur effortlessly, surprisingly and felicitously and are part of the 'experience' of Knowledge in our lives. For example after doing full time service in DLM for a few years I was put in a position where I was left in the LA airport in the early 1980's with no ashram to return to, no job and no money but I did have an economy ticket home. The plane was overbooked and so I sat meditating for a few hours while the turmoil was sorted out. There were a lot of ugly scenes at the booking counter and I got no seat and I had to wait 24 hours at the airport until the next flight. I could have worried the whole time about my future chances for a job and marriage, etc ('in my mind') or I could have thought why didn't I get a ticket even though I'd been meditating ('in my mind') or I could have thought I should be meditating the whole time so I won't worry and then worry because I couldn't constantly meditate ('in my mind') or I could ring my sister, tell her I was coming home a day alte and to tell our Mum and Dad their prayers had been answered and the situation re grandchildren had just improved enormously but I needed a job if they heard of any and then I relaxed while keeping an eye on my luggage. There were further booking problems and I ended up with a seat in first class sitting next to an old school acquaintance I hadn't seen in 15 years. We talked a lot about what I'd been doing since school, reminisced, caught up and at the end of the flight he offered me a position in his father's brokerage firm working in the foreign exchange department, seems they needed people who were honest, could be relied on and had methods of coping with extreme tension, and oh and it pays really well and no he didn't end up receiving Knowledge. Thar's the sort of thing we mean by 'grace'. To Scott: Australians don't refer to the US as the 'Great Republic'. To: JW, Jim Hellman, Sir David, Bill, Brian and etc I don't blithely accept 'evidence' from an anonymous internet post of someone who calls themselves 'Malibu Mole' or for that matter your assertions. That Maharaji is wealthy and that Elan Vital is an organisation that generates a large amount of money is obviously true, no valid value judgements can be made from these or any other facts in isolations. The site ectually has a dearth of real information and a substantial amount of unsubstantiated hearsay. Brief satirical interlude: 'Americans are skeptical of authority' The 70's USA premies (of which the majority of posters on this forum are) were a constant source of amusement. We could always get a laugh by saying we just had to go to put our socks on. The subtext to this was that the absurd American-English Hindi accent and tone of voice that USA premies used was indicative of the fact that to people from a real skeptical, independant thinking culture lots of USA premies were completely 'in their minds' about their practice of knowledge. End of Satire. Going on your figures - 100,000 people in USA receive Knowledge, 10,000 practise, 10 dominate the ex-premies forum. Is there something really strange in this last number? Like where are the other 89,990? Mickey has explained it all in his Freudian slip of a nick name. You are the Pharisees of the modern era, the ones Jesus complained about so much - not cause they did the wrong things but because they did the right things for the wrong reasons with the wrong attitude. Is my definition correct Mickey? You are all individual and I don't currently have access to your Internet bios and I will presume for the duration of this post that you are relatively honest in your postings but its the Pharasaism that you have in common. I presume you're not all like John K. who's immaturity, near total lack of insight and discourtesy must go close to a world record and I quote: 'I used to love nightly satsang. One way I entertained myself when someone really boring was speaking I would answer what was said with some really smart ass comment, silently in my head of course. So if someone would say, oh something like, 'it's just so beautiful' I would say to myself 'yeah it's just too bad you're not!'. Or they'd say 'gee, I'm just so confused' I'd say 'so tell me something I don't already know'. or they'd say 'we just really need to focus' so i'd say 'yeah let's start by having you get off the stage' My comments would amuse me so much that I would soon have a very blissful smile on my face. The person speaking would then look at me smiling and get encouraged and think that they were really giving powerful satsang. which of course would make me laugh even more.' How is John Kostanza going to cope once Seinfeld ends? Nor are you all as omniscient as Bill who 'knows' Maharaji has had 'a long term imprisonment by hate, greed, darkness, lust and a mid-life crisis after his mother died.' Does it ever worry you a little when people like this agree with you? Some people might think there is some satire in this paragraph but I don't think you can satirise a 'diagnosis' like that on his sort of evidence, even Freud and Jung's flights of fancy didn't rise so high on so little. You don't need a video collection like mine to know that Maharaji has said lots of things to lots of different audiences under lots of conditions in the past 25 years and if you wish you can probably find quotes that will back up any assertion you care to make. The bible is somewhat similar in this respect and this taking statements out of context has enabled the formation of thousands of weird and wonderful cults and sects over the past 2,000 years. To understand the message you must follow the totality of the core teachings not attach yourself to extracted parts and make of that the gospel and you must not believe in the Knowledge ('in your mind') you must experience it. Must of the postees came to Knowledge quite young and seemed to accept it pretty quickly even though on the surface it has to be among the most outrageous claims any young westerners were ever subjected to. This fat, ugly, young Baskins Robbins eating Indian boy is the Satguru of the current age, receive this Knowledge and etc. I mean surely none of you were convinced by that childish Charles Cameron nonsense, were you? Nearly all the people who received Knowledge in the early 1970's were middle class or higher who were reaching adulthood at the most exciting time in world history where for example the complete scriptures of Hinduism and Bhuddism were freely available, more available than they ever had been to Asians, where college and university educations were available to train us for our positions in the elite of the richest, freeest human society ever known that was redressing social problems never before attempted, where we were able to have sex with beautiful young women with no fear of disease or babies, where exciting sports and interesting games were available with the time and money to engage in them, where travel to all parts of the world could be done in school holidays, where direct experience of unusual and estatic states of consciousness was commercially available along with sedatives and stimulants. Life had never been this good. 'Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven!' Why would anybody opt out of this fabulous delicatessen unless the experience of Knowledge was even more satisfying? Why would anyone live a drab, boring life in an ashram? Because of some obviously unlikely claims by the demented followers of the above fat ugly guru? If life with Knowledge wasn't better, more satisfying and intense, happier and more joyful why would anybody continue it? Why on earth did you guys stay in the ashram if this wasn't how you felt? Cause Maharaji said you should, he also said you should leave if it wasn't working out for you, so why didn't you leave? If you weren't experiencing it then it was nonsense. Two answers spring to mind. You were experiencing some kind of wonderful then or you were marginal and disturbed human beings in which case, for your own benefit, you might as well have been there as elsewhere though you weren't doing DLM any good. Either you had the experience once and for various, individual reasons you lost it in which case you remember that for better or worse, in delusion or clear sight you once experienced a richer more satisfying life in Knowledge than you experienced before or you were a serious wanker. Your biographies usually give details of unhappy ashram lives, problems implementing your 'orders' or doing what you thought you should do, etc, etc. As Knowledge was all about 'love' you proved this to your families by breaking off relations with them and apparently couldn't see the absurdity of your actions. Now I didn't live in USA but on my many trips there I met many US premies and heard much satsang. I am quite sure that the dominant story all over the world was that Knowledge was meant to be Truth, Consciousness and Bliss not Exaggerations, Difficulties and Misery and that this was how you knew if you were heading in the right direction. Not that all moments of your life were going to be ecstatic (though they often were) but overall it had to feel right. You guys kept failing that ongoing test of life and somehow never seemed to know it. Shape up or ship out - pretty straightforward. Drink the water. Shit or get off the pot. You guys weren't those strong, individual frontiersmen you imagine you were, you're those whining, self-obsessed low lifes who appear on US chat shows blaming everyone but themselves for their troubles. Now in your later, more mature time of life most of you claim everything is going rather well though the anger in some of your 'give me back my youth' or 'give me the money I am never going to make claims' makes me wonder. Imagine the possibility of your present maturity with the joys of community, meditation and devotion. Those of you who deny the possibilities are obviously not seeing premies or attending programs. Doesn't seem so nice if you're on the outside but be honest it looks pretty good to those inside, deluded or not. Peace, love and devotion, we should all have such delusions. If you've returned to the religion of your childhood then you surely acknowledge that the experience of that is akin to the experience premies have but jsut a pale reflection. Some of you have rather bizaare beliefs that are only available in California and I do not mean to include you in this conversation. Theoretical knowledge, as enjoyable as it is, is not enough. A strong argument can be made that Elan Vital and its brief history fits into the spiritual traditions of the human race and another one can be made saying the opposite. These arguments have been going on for thousands of years and will go on for thousands. I am not arguing with the claimed 89,990 other ex-premies but you guys here are definite losers. You're angry and bitter because Maharaji and his followers are having so much fun and success and you missed out. You were immature when you came to Knowledge and in that respect you never grew up. But for premies its not money or success that matter anyway. At programs in India I've seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of premies arrive on foot carrying their clothes and food in bundles, all the members of the family not just the teenagers. And they certainly seem to enjoy themselves at least as much as the Western premies. I've thought of a few problems that arose in my early practice of Knowledge, have a think about how you handled these situations and post your answers, you independant, irreverant lot: When I received Knowledge I told the Indian mahatma: 'Hey not so hard, you're hurting.' When he asked if everyone had felt Holy Name I said I was unsure but I'd get back to him after I'd practised for a few weeks if I was still unsure. When premies said Knowledge was going to bring the Millenium I knew that everyone who'd ever believed that before had been wrong, it was unlikely that this would change. When premies told me that the Astrodome was going to fly off to meet the Kohoutek Comet I went and looked at the foundations and said 'no way'. When premies said Bal Bhagwan Ji was the incarnation of Divine Intellect I thought 'I'm smarter than him and he doesn't seem to understand most of what he's talking about'. When premies said Bhole Ji was the incarnation of music I thought 'He can't even keep time with his band'. When premies said Raja Ji was the incarnation of Service I thought 'He's an air head'. Whan his mother Mata Ji said she was deposing her youngest son I thought 'A SatGuru is not appointed by his mother but by himself, in this case she can't be an Indian giver'. When Prem Pal married Marolyn Johnson I thought 'Great choice, I would have married her given the opportunity'. When Bob Mishler came to our community and said Guru Maharaji was now just a world leader not a guru I thought 'You can't stop being a SatGuru or a Perfect Master, this is bullshit that will fool no-one.' When Mishler had the ashrams closed, those of us in our ashram just kept on as before except we phoned the Ladies' Ashrams and invited everyone round for dinner. I thought throughout the 1970's and even mentioned it in Satsang. When donations were requested for the purchase and refurbishing of a Boeing 707 I said 'DLM couldn't afford the running costs of a 707, what about something smaller?' I can't even think of any problems from the 1980's and 1990's but then none of you were around then anyway. Did you guys just go along with this sort of stuff or do you have any other similar stories? Yes I know Maharaji is rich and I don't care. Yes I know only some of the people initiated enjoy it as much as I do but I don't care. Yes I know some of the PAMs are arseholes but I don't care. Yes I know that Maharaji doesn't appear to be saving the poor but they have always been with us and I do care enough to ensure some of my bounty goes to worthy causes. I see that Maharaji has plenty of competitors but none of them are doing any better than him and most of them a damn site worse. I'm sorry that it didn't work out for JW who seems a good person but I'm glad it didn't work out for Jim H. and John K. cause I don't want to meet them at a program because they seem like arseholes. See JW I don't now and never did pretend that my consciousness was different to what it is/was, what would be the point under the circumstances, I've never been trying to sell something and I had a realistic understanding of 'being in my mind' and 'negative'. I believe this site should improve, increase and update its nearly non-existent data about Elan Vital and raise the tone of its postings. It should give information on the number of hits the site gets, the number of people who post and the number it helps. So far I have only seen two 'aspirants' who needed help and they seem a little self obsessed to me. On the other hand it seems a pretty good reflection of the type of people I have said you are. Good luck Participant Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:55:53 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Well, at least you're not arrogant. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:13:14 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Hi Participant, I never mentioned it but, before I forget, I want to compliment you on your pseudonym. Very exciting. But why, by the way, don't you use your name? Are you aware of the fact that Maharaji doesn't want to be discussed on the net? Anyway, I just wanted to ask you a few questions. Defining 'grace', you say: This is a shorthand used by premies to denote the ongoing positive flow of events in our individual lives that occur effortlessly, surprisingly and felicitously and are part of the 'experience' of Knowledge in our lives.' 1) What causes that 'positive flow'? 2) Does Maharaji have anything to do with it? 3) Is Maharaji (the person) able to 'give' grace? 4) Can anyone else 'give' grace? 5) Does Maharaji mean as much (or as little) as you do by the term? 6) Is that how Maharaji has always used the term? You also go through a list of mistakes, exagerations and silly talk by and about a whole lot of people. Strangely enough, you seem to have overlooked Maharaji himself. Could you please explain what he meant by: 7) Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 8) Why did Maharaji say: Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 9) Why did Maharaji say: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? 10) How do you know what Maharaji means? 11) Have you ever been wrong in understanding him? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:21:03 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Gee, you must be the bestest, smartest, never-been-fooled Premie there is! I didn't know my name was Freudian, I just adopted the title Mili gave me. May we all become as wise and wonderful as you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:31:28 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Mr. Participant, the art of satire requires a small 'step back' so that the audience knows that satire is occurring. Just practice a little, it might come to you. I DO hope that your rambling, somewhat disturbed, post this time, IS satire and that you were satirical when you said you were trying to be serious. So glad to hear about your nice flight and meeting your old friend. When that kind of stuff happens and you don't have knowledge and/or when you believe Guru Maharaji is a fraud, is it still 'grace?' And what about if you are really, really constipated, and feel really uncomfotable, and then a bowel movement happens, is that 'grace.' It does seem to fit your definition as 'the ongoing flow of events in our individual lives that occur effortlessly, surprisinly (sometimes you have to run fast) and felicitiously (depends on how long you have been constipated, I guess)...' Yes, I guess we US premies were just so screwed up while you (in whatever country you lived in) sat back and laughed at us. My, how the joke was on us. Or was that satire, too, you said you were being satirical, but maybe you were just kidding, (about being satirical and you were really serious)? But I must say I admire your creative accounting of the ex-premies. Can't say I can account for all of them, but I assume they are still around, just not being followers of Mr. Prem Pal, the 89,990, I mean. And I think Maharaji will appreciate the fact that you don't hold him to anything he has ever said, despite the fact that he said 'lots of things.' Yes, I guess those of us who took what he said literally, like his commandment not to doubt (which, given your statements, you seem to have violated on a regular basis, at least in your 20/20 hindsight.),we're really fools. And you got some of your facts wrong too. I never heard Guru Maharaj Ji ever say that you should leave the ashram if it wasn't working for you. Did you attend those ashram meetings? He said no one should ever move out, one should surrender, and, by the way, if you weren't supposed to doubt, how in gods name could you decide that 'it wasn't working for you?' Your statment that premies were in a position to make rational choices of what they wanted to do is profoundly silly. Now, I do live in California, so I guess I'm certifiably nuts anyway, by your definition, but keep in mind that about half the people who post here are British and Jim Heller (not 'Hellerman') is actually Canadian. Perhaps do not have such derision for you fellow Commonwealth members. And how do we know you're not some 'self-obsessed low life who appear on US chatr shows...?' Boy, you have a BIG problem with Americans, don't you? Ethnocentrism is not attractive, Participant. But keep it up. Your statements are a good reflection of how open-minded, loving and accepting premies are. And as for being angry and bitter, well, you sound pretty angry and bitter to me, but if you are having such a great time as a premie, why in the hell do you care what some ex-premies think? Sounds kind of suspicious to me... Thank you for sharing all your wise pearls of wisdom of how you saw through all the premie/ Maharaji nonsense over the years. And what did you think when Maharaji said he was bringing the Millennium (it has two ns by the way) did you think he was lying or misinformed too like you throught the premies were? You should have told him. And I never believed that the holy family were the incarnations of anything either, but I did wonder when Maharaji later specifically said that Marolyn (aka Durga Ji) was the incarnation of the divine destroyer. Raja Ji ( and Claudia) definately were airheads. You got that right. Mishler didn't close ashrams in the U.S., he was gone long before Maharaji closed them in 1983. And great that you doubted Maharaji's patholigical desire for that Boeing 707. Unfortunately, a lot of us tried to devote to him 100% and hence when he said repeatedly that he wanted it, we tried to give it to him. Glad you saw through, and didn't believe, Maharaji's nonsense there either. I don't care that Maharaji is rich either. I think people should just know how rich he is and know where he gets his money. Glad you think I'm a nice person. I'm sure you are too. Good luck to you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:41:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: JW Subject: Re: Assimilation or dissolution. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: Scott, my point about Irish economic success in the US was that it was largely due to the fact that they were WHITE, or at least not impeded by white racism because they ARE white. I was afraid this was the case. If your point is that discrimination against African Americans is a fundamentally different kind of discrimination from that leveled against the Jews and Irish I have to say that I think you're 'whistling Dixie.' I simply and profoundly disagree, and I would suggest that you don't really understand what discrimination is. There really doesn't appear to be any room for discourse. And regarding: And, again, I don't believe anyone has said that the American ideals of equality means equality of economic outcome. Instead, what I said was that the extreme INEQUALITY of economic outcome can be evidence of the lack of equality of opportunity and respect. I think the discrepancies in the employment results in that study I mentioned earlier, is evidence that there isn't equality of economic opportunity for African Americans in this country. . So, I think you're saying the inequality of result is evidence of inequality of opportunity. I agree that inequality of opportunity would eventuate in inequality of result, but I don't see how you can make the inference in the other direction. This appears to be simply a veiled form of equality of result. As I said earlier, a larger and larger number of black Americans disagree with your whole premise. For them, inequality of result is evidence of something wrong with American black culture. What about the evidence of the Caribbean blacks in NY and elsewhere? Why are they so much more successful than American blacks? And what about Africans? Is their success, relative to American blacks, due to their skin color? The white culture in America has it's own problems, but those are for the most part not the problem of the black culture. The two are more distantly related than you take them to be. Your premise is 'nice' and it's something that is easy to sympathize with, but I think it is ultimately destructive. It siphons off resources that might be put to better use doing something more effective, solving other kinds of social ills that are more amenable to intervention. I'm not saying this to offend you. I too, once believed as you do, but it gradually dawned on me that if what I believed was true, then there was really no way to explain the history of events in a logical way. I mean, part of it is logical, but there's a remainder that you have to ascribe to irrationality. Therefore, either something else must be true... or else the history of events, or on a deeper level human motivations to action, are not logical and coherent. I don't think we can take this much further here, and I suggest that we discuss it off the forum. I've put my email address below. stalking@freewheeling.com Regards, Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:11:10 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant, I am not angry. I was never taken in conserning M as Lord. I had a good experience with K and stopped practicing because I just kind of drifted away but also before that when I moved from a premie house, not an ashram 3 people came 5 or 6 hours from the premie house to 'retrieve' me. I would not be controlled. They got very nasty and in my eyes did anything but prove their point. One of them went on to become a big guy in DLM and his children went to M's children's birthday parties and visa versa. I don't know his account as to why he left DLM but assume it was because he had a paying job at DLM and stopped getting paid. He was reduced to using a credit card to feed his family and pay his bills. I assume this got old quickly and that is what precipitated his leaving. I only know this because we are connected through my daughter, his niece. How did one so devoted turn away? Would you say he gave in to his mind? Should he have stayed and meditated and let 'grace' care for his children. Maybe he tried that and hit his credit card limit in the mean time. I agree that some of these heated discussions get to nasty but that also happens with premies who post here. They must be moments of mind. Why are you all discussing M if he doesn't want you to on the Net? It felt to me like your mind when you passed judgment on some of the non-premie posters. Shouldn't you deal with everyone from a place of love instead of falling into that same name calling trap that you critisized? Why do you feel like you are justified in passing judgment on Jim H. and John K. and approving of JW. How happy you are that what you feel is a wonderful experience didn't work out for them. How contrary to a spiritualy gracious and loving attitude. Isn't your satsang here not allowed? On the subject of numbers. I do not believe there are any advertising efforts made and from reading posts and my own experience it seems like we found the site by chance. No one here clams anything but that we are here to discuss M and K and whatever else comes around. And although VP can and probably will speak for himself I think your advise to him is misdirected and confusing. This, the US, is a free country and if VP chooses to and feels a benifit from being here I guess your opinion won't get him to tow the line for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:16:27 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: JW, Well said, I didn't say it as well as you but my heart and MIND were in the right place! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:30:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Robyn Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: I can't wait for VP to read this post! It made me so angry I could hardly speak. Thanks to all for speaking some of my feelings for me. Katie [one of those dumb, immature (I received K when I was 16, so naturally I wasn't too mature) US premies, who you probably made fun of, with good reason. I WAS dumb! I believed all the stuff Maharaji said, for example. I'm a lot smarter now, thank god.] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:30:50 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: JW Subject: A relatively short rejoinder (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: Scot, this analysis is faulty because it doesn't consider the DEGREE of the discrimination. Obviously there is a big difference between discrimination in employment or property rights, on the one hand, and slavery and genocide on the other. (In the case of African Americans and Native Americans) Obviously, even discrimination can be overcome to some degree, and in some ways, for example, even segregation can have certain advantages in holding a culture together. (Truth is, I'm Welsh not Scot.) This is the refuge, and you've stated it relatively clearly. That is, the DEGREE of discrimination is all that's left to explain the DEGREE AND THE SIGN of the difference. Clearly, the degree of discrimination explains some of the difference. I don't think it explains as much as you do. I think discrimination can be completely overcome, not just 'to some degree.' Discrimination is the white man's problem, not the black man's. But, you could be right. Just one point to clarify things. Slavery is not a different degree of discrimination, it is different in kind. Slavery may go a long way toward explaining why the black culture is the way it is (though this is an hypothesis that I suspect many African Americans would find offensive.) Genocide is not merely discrimination of a different degree. (We will ignore the fact that I think genocide an appropriate term for the past treatment of Amerinds by Europeans. It is an emotionally clouding word, and inaccurate. I grew up around, lived with, and dated them. I've participated in their holiest religious ceremonies. I daresay you have not.) Still, it is theoretically a refutable hypothesis that degree of discrimination accounts for the difference in performance and achievement, and I will accept the hypothesis. I will not accept this as a fact. And I will also not accept it as an unfalsifiable premise. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:46:37 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Participant Subject: Sorry you feel this way (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Participant, This is a totally serious response with no sarcasm, so please read it as such. I find it sad that you have taken these real live people and managed to critique and pigeonhole them into convenient little categories just because they no longer love Maharaji. You have based this on writings they have made publically over this internet. Some of these things have been outpourings from their hearts and souls, others are reactionary writings, and some are just meant to be humorous. What if you met John K. or bill at the grocery store or the park or somewhere else and found them to be kind, funny, sensitive and pleasant to be around? How would you feel about judging them in one or two sentences? One thing I like about this site is that just when I think I have a 'feel' for someone, they say something that adds to the picture of who I think they are. (This applies to premies and non.) It helps me remember how multidimentional everyone is. I am only young compared to some and I am an adult. I told that story about my parents because I was sharing something from my past. It was in context. When I was a child, it was my parents' job to help me learn to think and make my own decisions. To drag that out, twist it, and throw it in my face in this thread, (inferring that I cannot make my own decisions with what to do with my time as an adult), was cruel and sarcastic. I didn't appreciate it. If you really think I am nice, why would you do that to me? Participant, you do have control over how you spend your own time. If you are so worried about the character of those who post here and about the high content of the information on the Internet as being nonsense, you are free to choose to go elsewhere to spend your time. You are correct when you say that I don't know these people very well, but they have shared things about themselves with me. I know them better than I know you who has shared nothing personal about yourself with me. I have looked very closely at the lives of the people in my family who practice knowledge. I love them and so I won't go into any negative or positive critiques of loved ones here. I will say that I know that they are individuals and I would not judge all premies by certain things that they do or don't do. (Just as I do not judge all the actions of Baptists or Presbyterians or Americans by the actions of one) I don't have doubt about Maharaji in my mind due to how premies behave, it is only the actions of Maharaji that make me question. I think that some premies are very positive and pleasant people. Why do you think I was so interested in DLM/EV for so long? If you think that I am self-obsessed, then I can only answer that you only know me from what I have posted here. I have talked about myself a lot here. That's part of working through things. Anyway, you really don't know me very well. I'll bet if we met, you might be surprised! Life is great that way-full of surprises. I might be surprised upon meeting you, too. VP P.S. I appreciated your honesty in how you perceived things that happened in DLM and EV. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:58:10 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie off topic Subject: Respone to Katies comment. I'm getting lost in this thead. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Katie: Regarding: Scott, although I know you live in NOVA now, I wonder if the reason that you haven't experienced these things is because you grew up in the Pacific Northwest. (I don't mean to say you're naive - my partner grew up in the Upper Midwest and had similar feelings until he lived in the South). I am aware of prejudice even though I grew up where the black population was minimal. I've lived everywhere, including the South and the Northeast. I'm over 40 for heaven sake! As I told JW in a different post, I think your underlying hypothesis is that the degree of discrimination leveled at the black population explains the degree of difference in performance and achievement. I have no argument that the degree of discrimination explains some of that gap, and I accept the hypothesis that it may explain all or most of it. There is another camp (which I believe equally incorrect) that hypothesize (or even claim to have proved) that 80% of the gap is explained by genetic differences. I think both of these hypotheses are refutable empirically, and I think in the service of truth that we need to back off of emotionally charged terms like 'genocide,' that even if accurate (and I'm not conceding this) are not relevant to our current dilemma. I still urge JW and anyone else to read Jim Sleeper's excellent book. The culture and experience of all black populations is not uniform. The highest achieving group of immigrants in Great Britain are Africans, so would you say that the relative inability of East Europeans to perform at that level is because they are white, or that they experience more discrimination? I think the differences in the US and in GB have more to do with culture than with discrimination. That also is a refutable hypothesis. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:22:13 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: You don't exactly do a great service for Maharaji's mission, Participant. You wrote: 'You guys weren't those strong, individual frontiersmen you imagine you were, you're those whining, self-obsessed low lifes who appear on US chat shows blaming everyone but themselves for their troubles.' It's all in your own head mate. You are relating in such an egocentric way with us that you only see us as a reflection of your own head. Most people here don't claim to be anything great although you obviously think you are. To address people in the manner you do must mean you have very little empathy with those people. You think you're above us all. I don't see people here blamingeveryone but themselves for their troubles. I mean, I have troubles but I'm not blaming M for them. You are talking AT us and not with us. How far is that kind of communication going to go. From your spelling I can see you're on my side of the Atlantic, where's your British sense of fair play and tolerance? Judjing by your tone, you are on the defensive. Are you defending your own ideology? Why do you need to do that? Maharaji doesn't need any defence of the kind you post, so you must be defending your ideology. Is it supposed to impress us or make us realise what scum we are? I think you're defending your own ideology to yourself. By calling us low lifes, you elevate yourself to where you feel you are doing the right thing. But what if we're NOT low lifes. No the possibility is too awful to even imagine. I think you need to let go a bit. What the hell does it matter if a few people slag Maharaji off? You have your own experience. You know that's real. No need to defend it, just enjoy it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:27:46 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: VP Subject: A reply to VP's comment to JW (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: VP: Regarding: I feel very fortunate to live here and have the life that I do, and yet it is so important to examine the past mistakes of all societies, America included. I do not want to be blamed for the past, over which I have personally had no control, but I do want to understand it so I can have a positive impact upon the present with my actions and beliefs. VP I have no argument with this. My only concern is... at what point do you call it quits on examining the past? In an exhaustive examination you have to have some sort of 'stopping rule.' What you guys are not realizing (and I don't fault you for it, since it is anything but obvious) is that this self-examination serves the interests of certain power groups within the US. I'm not willing to give them carte blanche simply out of guilt. An example of a policy proposal that is not motivated by guilt, in my opinion: Water rights in the West are a serious bone of contention. Water rights in the East are based on a principle called 'Riparian,' by which is meant that your right to water is based on your proximity to the resource. In the West water rights were based on 'prior use,' basically. (It's not quite this simple because it's been evolving toward a new 'certification' system.) To take water from the Columbia watershed you have to get in line with everyone else, and your place in line is based on when you first used the water, and continuation of that use with not more than a 5 year gap. So, the basic problem is that more water is allocated than actually exists. This is partly because the resource fluctuates, but there are also legal battles as well as a tendency to overuse and deplete the resource (big surprise). The dilemma is often referred to as a form of the 'Tragedy of the Commons.' The people who have the oldest prior use rights, and are therefore first in line, are very often Native Americans. Their rights date from treaties in the 1840s and there are no non-Amerind rights that predate. One of the more innovative proposals of the Public Choice economists, like Eleanor Ostrum, to deal with over-allocation is to cede all rights in the areas of contention to the tribes, while simultaneously transforming them into 'certification' rights. The allocation problem would then be in the hands of the tribes, and not in the hand of a far-away Washington Bureaucracy. I assure you this proposal has nothing to do with guilt over some genocidal past. It is motivated by the utility of exploiting the Amerind 'cultural' capacities to the benefit of all. It is an effort to privatize the commons in a way that ensures that it won't be over-exploited. I'm sure you are completely confused about my position now. The dust will eventually settle. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:49:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Respone to Katies comment. I'm getting lost in this thead. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Sorry, Scott. After I typed that I felt that it might be a little condescending. I know you're over 40 and have 'been around' (although not TOO much, I hope). If I can speak for JW, I think he is very sensitive to issues concerning black people of US origin because his partner is black and he's directly experienced discrimination. I personally know that it can be much harder for a US black person (especially male) to get a job, unless they're being hired under some kind of quota system. The same goes for females in my profession, actually. Scott, one of the problems in this discussion is that you sound very conservative. I get the feeling that you're really not as conservative as you might sound? Like, you don't agree with Rush Limbaugh, I hope. If you do, it's OK, but I'd like to know. Regards from Katie P.S. My brother, who I love very much, won't listen to Rush Limbaugh because 'he's too outrageous'. He listens to G. Gordon Liddy instead! Amazing... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:53:55 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Yet another. The topic is irresistable. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: JW: Regarding: I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion as it's very off topic, but again Scott, I think you make my point. The Irish were able to become 'white' because there was a black subjugated population to contrast with. That's what makes African Americans different and why simple 'institutional' changes in laws and procedures does not eliminate racism that helps keep them subjugated. Those making the decisions still tend to favor those who look like them. And those making the decisions are verwhelmingly white. Studies done on hiring practices show this, for example. That isn't written down anywhere, but I would submit that it is just as institutionalized as were the Jim Crow laws. As for stunted development being irrelevent on a personal level, tell that to the qualified black candidates in that study who didn't get hired because of their race. Tell that to the San Francisco police department which has been under court order for years, because they refused to hire blacks or Asians in a city that is less than 40% white. That's pretty institutional if you ask me, and this is 35 years after the civil rights act. If you are not interested in continuing the dialog that's your business. But if that's so then I suggest we stop wasting my time and the resources of the Forum. I just want to mention that the argument over what is institutionalized racism doesn't cut the issue appropriately. The issue is de jure or non-de jure. In the example you gave of institutionalized racism this was clearly and unambiguously illegal. Institutionalized or not it must therefore be the result of attitudes that are not subject to change by merely changing laws. It would seem that to go to the heart of the problem you will have to go to people's attitudes, and you will have to apply resources where you can do some good. If you make this a battle over who has the most sanctified right to resources based upon what group they belong to I assure you that the attitudes you ought to be concerned about will harden and become more 'institutionalized.' We might expend great resources to root out some of the perpetrators, but the problem will not go away. In the end realism tells me that the black population will lose, but whether this is the case or not it won't be justice. Both sides need to dis-engage and go to their respective corners, black to deal with their unique problems, for which that are responsible; and whites to deal with their unique problems, for which they are responsible. This is not idealistic, but pragmatic. If we need to fundamentally change the rules of the game in order for this to happen then so be it. I understand your partner's attitudes, and while I feel them justified they are nonetheless misguided. They will not yield the world King saw from the mountaintop. To achieve that end a large number of us will have to transcend those personal experiences that seem to justify continuation of a rancorous system. One more thing. To attribute the success of the famine Irish, or German Jews, or the Polish Christians to their 'contrast' with the black population may gain you some cache within certain segments of the black activist subculture who regard that myth as attractive, but it is an affront to those very traditions that legitimate the success of this generation of African Americans. It denigrates the experience of both black and white by suggesting that neither is worthy. I know you mean well, but let your insight catch up to your intentions. That notion is total, blubbering, nonsense. Every generation of immigrants has managed to climb over the black underclass for one very simple reason: they were held down by de jure segregation and by the cultural conditions of the black population that were consequently frozen in an uncompetitive mode. The big freeze is over. The cultural conditions will continue for a season, but the disposition of blacks and whites can and will change. It occurs to me that you and your partner might gain some insight by considering the most rigid caste system in the world, next to the one that existed here. The Indians (not American) are thoroughly disillusioned with their efforts to overcome the consequences of caste, and the conditions of the untouchables through affirmative action. As here, many of the leaders of the untouchable caste are seriously re-considering the consequences. Unlike us they do not have the complications of skin color to cloud their eyes. In spite of the anecdotal experiences of your friend, and many similar stories we are all familiar with (though I admit not experienced directly), I don't think skin color accounts for as much as you think. If you control for culture the effect of skin color diminishes substantially. This is not conjecture, but an empirically verifiable fact, in spite of anecdotal experiences to the contrary. The initial reaction to skin color is something we need to make an effort to overcome, but that effort yields fruit relatively quickly. I really think there are more seriously entrenched issues here, that go more to the heart of the human condition. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:21:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie Subject: A response to Katie's response to my respones to Katie's comment to.... (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Katie: I recently read the post where JW made reference to his partner, but I think that is relevant to his attitude and I think the attitude is justified. However justified it is, however, I think it has to be overcome because it's one of the things that's in the way of realizing King's dream. In a separate post I suggested that they study the results of affirmative action in India, where the consequences of a severe caste system are unclouded by skin color and other race differences. I think there is empirical evidence to show that those kinds of superficial triggers (like facial composition, skin color, etc.) are relatively easy to overcome with some effort. The question is, how to motivate that effort. I don't think you do it by affirmative action based on race. You might base quotas on a race neutral criterion, like income and you also might legitimately set ethnic quotas in educational institutions in order to foster diversity. That is a compelling social need. You don't institute race quotas in order to correct past injustice. Evidence here and in India suggests strongly that it just doesn't work in the long run. It is something you can use to get the ball rolling, but you have to define a stopping rule because it is basically promulgating one injustice to rectify another. A stopping rule takes care of that ethical problem. Your question about identifying me as liberal or conservative is interesting. Strictly speaking there aren't many genuine conservatives in the US, although the religious right comes close be being reactionary. The US is basically a liberal country than can't tolerate either a socialist or a conservative party for very long. Alexander Hamilton was about as conservative as Americans ever get, in a classical sense. He thought we should have a king. My dear colleague Thelma Z. Lavine is nearly impossible to classify as Americans misuse the terms liberal or conservative terms. I think the Eastern European countries could benefit from a constitutional monarchy. Perhaps that's conservative, but maybe it's liberal. Personally, I think people should be judged on the quality of their ideas, not how closely those ideas conform to a sanctified version of an ideological prejudice. That, however, may be too idealistic for the real world. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:41:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: A response to Katie's response to my respones to Katie's comment to.... (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott - I'm getting in way over my head here. Will probably e-mail you to straighten things out. I hope I haven't offended you in some way. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:50:11 (EST)
Poster: gumby Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Genghis & Sylvia vs. Attila & Betty (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Hi Scott, It was I, who originally posted the Attila post. I was going way off the cuff, and I thought I mentioned it, but I am sorry for posting something so far off. Wow, must been imagining something... GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:07:55 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: A reply to VP's comment to JW (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott T., I hope the dust will settle. It is a fascinating debate, and I believe that I will have to get a good night's sleep and come back to this post in the am. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:47:26 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Robyn Subject: Robyn-Thanks (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Participant, I am not angry. I was never taken in conserning M as Lord. I had a good experience with K and stopped practicing because I just kind of drifted away but also before that when I moved from a premie house, not an ashram 3 people came 5 or 6 hours from the premie house to 'retrieve' me. I would not be controlled. They got very nasty and in my eyes did anything but prove their point. One of them went on to become a big guy in DLM and his children went to M's children's birthday parties and visa versa. I don't know his account as to why he left DLM but assume it was because he had a paying job at DLM and stopped getting paid. He was reduced to using a credit card to feed his family and pay his bills. I assume this got old quickly and that is what precipitated his leaving. I only know this because we are connected through my daughter, his niece. How did one so devoted turn away? Would you say he gave in to his mind? Should he have stayed and meditated and let 'grace' care for his children. Maybe he tried that and hit his credit card limit in the mean time. I agree that some of these heated discussions get to nasty but that also happens with premies who post here. They must be moments of mind. Why are you all discussing M if he doesn't want you to on the Net? It felt to me like your mind when you passed judgment on some of the non-premie posters. Shouldn't you deal with everyone from a place of love instead of falling into that same name calling trap that you critisized? Why do you feel like you are justified in passing judgment on Jim H. and John K. and approving of JW. How happy you are that what you feel is a wonderful experience didn't work out for them. How contrary to a spiritualy gracious and loving attitude. Isn't your satsang here not allowed? On the subject of numbers. I do not believe there are any advertising efforts made and from reading posts and my own experience it seems like we found the site by chance. No one here clams anything but that we are here to discuss M and K and whatever else comes around. And although VP can and probably will speak for himself I think your advise to him is misdirected and confusing. This, the US, is a free country and if VP chooses to and feels a benifit from being here I guess your opinion won't get him to tow the line for you. Robyn, Thanks for your defense. I think that Participant was trying to warn me of the dangers of hanging around with the likes of you 'arseholes'-haha! (That word is just a riot!) Either he thinks that I am 18 and he is trying to be sincere or he is slamming me for listening to my parents instead of receiving knowledge. A quick observation: The Participant Intelligence Scale- If you are dumb for being a premie who believed totally in Maharaji, and smarter for being a premie who does not totally buy into everything,then I guess you are a genius for not receiving Knowledge in the first place! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 08:17:20 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work P.S. (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Hey, I went back and looked at my original statement. You were right to say that my comment about America's poor white underclass was a lame defense. I think I was trying to actually state that you didn't know everything about America, but I stated this very poorly. Happy to clarify this for you now. Also, I think it is very interesting that you chose to answer only the parts of my post to you that you wanted to. You did not answer me on my point about the availability of the video list to the general public here in America. You didn't answer to the availability of EV or Maharaji to the mainstream of Americans. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:00:45 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Participant Subject: An apology (of sorts) (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Dear Participant: I apologize for my words which obviously anger you very much (enough that you call me immature and an arsehole etc, wow! and you don't even know me!). However, I must point out that this is the ex-premie page and you must realize that you will read words that are offensive to you here. This is our place to bitch and moan and also have barrels of laughs and fun reminiscing about our time worshipping the guru. Most of us have no one else we can talk to about these kinds of things, at least I know I have no one. I guess the reason you don't like me were my comments about what MY MIND said to me while I sat in satsang practically every night for ten straight years. I remember giving satsang about that very thing once, what thoughts go through my brain while I sit and listen to others give satsang or sit and meditate. The thoughts that flow through us are not really what we are, they simply flow through us. As I remember, most of the people laughed listening to what I was saying because they of course related to it. Just because I don't bow down to your guru anymore does not mean I don't bow down to my creator. I know I am one of the little creatures in this creation, just a wisp of wind blown hither and thither and yon. I do remain in awe of and humble towards that power which created me and sustains me and will someday destroy me. Participant, I encourage you to drop your persona as The Particpant. Let's stop the preaching. Take a cue from CD, another premie on this forum, he makes his comments, but he does not preach to us. Take care, and chill! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:26:05 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP Subject: to VP (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: VP, Of course! Robyn Haven't heard from you off line in a few days, can't remember if I owe you one but I hope to write you today or tomorrow. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 11:12:35 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant wrote: >>We talked a lot about what I'd been doing since school, reminisced, caught up and at the end of the flight he offered me a position in his father's brokerage firm working in the foreign exchange department, seems they needed people who were honest, could be relied on and had methods of coping with extreme tension, and oh and it pays really well and no he didn't end up receiving Knowledge. Thar's the sort of thing we mean by 'grace'. Cult-programmed premies can never hide their brainwashing. This is one of those things like 'this' life, or 'that' love. Real people in the real world don't want to know if someone has a 'method' of coping with extreme tension. They would want to know if you can simply cope with extreme tension. In the real world, they call it 'the right stuff', and misguided as the machismo (male or female) is, that's the way they do it. On the other hand, cults have 'methods', and they reveal their programming when some boffo like Participant tries to pass off some shop talk as though it was recognized as legitimate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 11:32:00 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: An apology (of sorts) (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: John, I wrote this far below and you may not see it there, but I wanted you to know that I, for one, do not think that you are an arsehole. You have a quick wit and you get some really killer jokes on here from time to time. I'm sure that they probably do hurt feelings, as well as some of the things that I have said may have (for example: my parents calling DLM a cult.) We could talk about this stuff to others, but are they really going to understand? (Some people think I am nuts just knowing about this!!) Don't take that biting but funny tone out of your posts. Those of us with a little COMMON SENSE know that this is just humor (mixed with some anger from time to time.) Not like you need my permission or anything, but just wanted to get that off of my chest. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 12:25:14 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: A reply to Scott's reply to VP about his reply to JW! (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott, I just had to let you know that I knew what you were talking about with the Colorado River, I learned about it in an Environmental Geography course from college! Also I think it is you. I read your journey entry some time ago and if you were the one who lived in a Brooklyn ashram and if there was only one it is the place I received K. You know how I love this type of thing. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 14:49:12 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: A response to Katie's response to my respones to Katie's comment to.... (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott, I didn't read your whole post, sorry but I'm leaving work early today to get ready to go out dancing with a group of friends and just wanted to check the forum quickly first. I am just commenting on your statement about the class system in India and the prejudice having nothing to do with skin color. I went to college with a lot of people from India. They were in my computer classes and I got to be quite friendly with many of them, hashing out programs together. Anyway I don't know if this was in addition to the class system or within it, maybe a bit of both but they said there is great prejudice in reference to skin color and one woman in particular said that was why she and her husband came to this country. They were well off in India so I don't think they were in a low class. Robyn PS. I felt bad and did go back and read your whole post. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 18:42:42 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Katie Subject: I'm not offended (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott - I'm getting in way over my head here. Will probably e-mail you to straighten things out. I hope I haven't offended you in some way. Regards, Katie Katie: I'm not offended in any way. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 18:48:17 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: A reply to Scott's reply to VP about his reply to JW! (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Scott, I just had to let you know that I knew what you were talking about with the Colorado River, I learned about it in an Environmental Geography course from college! Also I think it is you. I read your journey entry some time ago and if you were the one who lived in a Brooklyn ashram and if there was only one it is the place I received K. You know how I love this type of thing. Robyn Robyn: I don't think I've ever been to Brooklyn. Brookline yes, but that's in Boston. And it was a premie house, very briefly. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 21:37:05 (EST)
Poster: A canadian Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: First, a general response to those of you who answered my 2nd post especially JW and Brian. What part of 'satire' don't you understand? I tried to put my post into '70's premie language' and I was deliberately trying to match the sarcastic, smugly infuriated tone of your posts. Seems like I succeeded. For this post I am going to try to be serious. To VP: I don't believe defending attacks on the USA is best done by acknowledging the existence of a large white underclass as well. In my country all citizens receive substantial government benefits if they are unable to support themselves adequately. We believe any society of decent human beings would do the same. You seem like a nice, polite young person so I suggest you have a talk with your parents about your presence on this forum. They gave you sensible advice and acted wisely when you were interested in Knowledge when younger and I'm sure they would advise you to put the time you spend on this forum to more appropriate uses. If you want to know more about Knowledge I suggest you talk to your close relatives who have direct involvement and compare what they say with how they live and see if the two aspects correlate. A very high percentage of information on the Internet is nonsense and you have no way of knowing what the people posting on this forum are really like. Of course I don't believe that Prem Pal Singh Rawat has any direct influence on the value of various Asian currencies. However I will explain the use of the term 'by his grace' which I used satirically to press a few buttons. This is a shorthand used by premies to denote the ongoing positive flow of events in our individual lives that occur effortlessly, surprisingly and felicitously and are part of the 'experience' of Knowledge in our lives. For example after doing full time service in DLM for a few years I was put in a position where I was left in the LA airport in the early 1980's with no ashram to return to, no job and no money but I did have an economy ticket home. The plane was overbooked and so I sat meditating for a few hours while the turmoil was sorted out. There were a lot of ugly scenes at the booking counter and I got no seat and I had to wait 24 hours at the airport until the next flight. I could have worried the whole time about my future chances for a job and marriage, etc ('in my mind') or I could have thought why didn't I get a ticket even though I'd been meditating ('in my mind') or I could have thought I should be meditating the whole time so I won't worry and then worry because I couldn't constantly meditate ('in my mind') or I could ring my sister, tell her I was coming home a day alte and to tell our Mum and Dad their prayers had been answered and the situation re grandchildren had just improved enormously but I needed a job if they heard of any and then I relaxed while keeping an eye on my luggage. There were further booking problems and I ended up with a seat in first class sitting next to an old school acquaintance I hadn't seen in 15 years. We talked a lot about what I'd been doing since school, reminisced, caught up and at the end of the flight he offered me a position in his father's brokerage firm working in the foreign exchange department, seems they needed people who were honest, could be relied on and had methods of coping with extreme tension, and oh and it pays really well and no he didn't end up receiving Knowledge. Thar's the sort of thing we mean by 'grace'. To Scott: Australians don't refer to the US as the 'Great Republic'. To: JW, Jim Hellman, Sir David, Bill, Brian and etc I don't blithely accept 'evidence' from an anonymous internet post of someone who calls themselves 'Malibu Mole' or for that matter your assertions. That Maharaji is wealthy and that Elan Vital is an organisation that generates a large amount of money is obviously true, no valid value judgements can be made from these or any other facts in isolations. The site ectually has a dearth of real information and a substantial amount of unsubstantiated hearsay. Brief satirical interlude: 'Americans are skeptical of authority' The 70's USA premies (of which the majority of posters on this forum are) were a constant source of amusement. We could always get a laugh by saying we just had to go to put our socks on. The subtext to this was that the absurd American-English Hindi accent and tone of voice that USA premies used was indicative of the fact that to people from a real skeptical, independant thinking culture lots of USA premies were completely 'in their minds' about their practice of knowledge. End of Satire. Going on your figures - 100,000 people in USA receive Knowledge, 10,000 practise, 10 dominate the ex-premies forum. Is there something really strange in this last number? Like where are the other 89,990? Mickey has explained it all in his Freudian slip of a nick name. You are the Pharisees of the modern era, the ones Jesus complained about so much - not cause they did the wrong things but because they did the right things for the wrong reasons with the wrong attitude. Is my definition correct Mickey? You are all individual and I don't currently have access to your Internet bios and I will presume for the duration of this post that you are relatively honest in your postings but its the Pharasaism that you have in common. I presume you're not all like John K. who's immaturity, near total lack of insight and discourtesy must go close to a world record and I quote: 'I used to love nightly satsang. One way I entertained myself when someone really boring was speaking I would answer what was said with some really smart ass comment, silently in my head of course. So if someone would say, oh something like, 'it's just so beautiful' I would say to myself 'yeah it's just too bad you're not!'. Or they'd say 'gee, I'm just so confused' I'd say 'so tell me something I don't already know'. or they'd say 'we just really need to focus' so i'd say 'yeah let's start by having you get off the stage' My comments would amuse me so much that I would soon have a very blissful smile on my face. The person speaking would then look at me smiling and get encouraged and think that they were really giving powerful satsang. which of course would make me laugh even more.' How is John Kostanza going to cope once Seinfeld ends? Nor are you all as omniscient as Bill who 'knows' Maharaji has had 'a long term imprisonment by hate, greed, darkness, lust and a mid-life crisis after his mother died.' Does it ever worry you a little when people like this agree with you? Some people might think there is some satire in this paragraph but I don't think you can satirise a 'diagnosis' like that on his sort of evidence, even Freud and Jung's flights of fancy didn't rise so high on so little. You don't need a video collection like mine to know that Maharaji has said lots of things to lots of different audiences under lots of conditions in the past 25 years and if you wish you can probably find quotes that will back up any assertion you care to make. The bible is somewhat similar in this respect and this taking statements out of context has enabled the formation of thousands of weird and wonderful cults and sects over the past 2,000 years. To understand the message you must follow the totality of the core teachings not attach yourself to extracted parts and make of that the gospel and you must not believe in the Knowledge ('in your mind') you must experience it. Must of the postees came to Knowledge quite young and seemed to accept it pretty quickly even though on the surface it has to be among the most outrageous claims any young westerners were ever subjected to. This fat, ugly, young Baskins Robbins eating Indian boy is the Satguru of the current age, receive this Knowledge and etc. I mean surely none of you were convinced by that childish Charles Cameron nonsense, were you? Nearly all the people who received Knowledge in the early 1970's were middle class or higher who were reaching adulthood at the most exciting time in world history where for example the complete scriptures of Hinduism and Bhuddism were freely available, more available than they ever had been to Asians, where college and university educations were available to train us for our positions in the elite of the richest, freeest human society ever known that was redressing social problems never before attempted, where we were able to have sex with beautiful young women with no fear of disease or babies, where exciting sports and interesting games were available with the time and money to engage in them, where travel to all parts of the world could be done in school holidays, where direct experience of unusual and estatic states of consciousness was commercially available along with sedatives and stimulants. Life had never been this good. 'Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven!' Why would anybody opt out of this fabulous delicatessen unless the experience of Knowledge was even more satisfying? Why would anyone live a drab, boring life in an ashram? Because of some obviously unlikely claims by the demented followers of the above fat ugly guru? If life with Knowledge wasn't better, more satisfying and intense, happier and more joyful why would anybody continue it? Why on earth did you guys stay in the ashram if this wasn't how you felt? Cause Maharaji said you should, he also said you should leave if it wasn't working out for you, so why didn't you leave? If you weren't experiencing it then it was nonsense. Two answers spring to mind. You were experiencing some kind of wonderful then or you were marginal and disturbed human beings in which case, for your own benefit, you might as well have been there as elsewhere though you weren't doing DLM any good. Either you had the experience once and for various, individual reasons you lost it in which case you remember that for better or worse, in delusion or clear sight you once experienced a richer more satisfying life in Knowledge than you experienced before or you were a serious wanker. Your biographies usually give details of unhappy ashram lives, problems implementing your 'orders' or doing what you thought you should do, etc, etc. As Knowledge was all about 'love' you proved this to your families by breaking off relations with them and apparently couldn't see the absurdity of your actions. Now I didn't live in USA but on my many trips there I met many US premies and heard much satsang. I am quite sure that the dominant story all over the world was that Knowledge was meant to be Truth, Consciousness and Bliss not Exaggerations, Difficulties and Misery and that this was how you knew if you were heading in the right direction. Not that all moments of your life were going to be ecstatic (though they often were) but overall it had to feel right. You guys kept failing that ongoing test of life and somehow never seemed to know it. Shape up or ship out - pretty straightforward. Drink the water. Shit or get off the pot. You guys weren't those strong, individual frontiersmen you imagine you were, you're those whining, self-obsessed low lifes who appear on US chat shows blaming everyone but themselves for their troubles. Now in your later, more mature time of life most of you claim everything is going rather well though the anger in some of your 'give me back my youth' or 'give me the money I am never going to make claims' makes me wonder. Imagine the possibility of your present maturity with the joys of community, meditation and devotion. Those of you who deny the possibilities are obviously not seeing premies or attending programs. Doesn't seem so nice if you're on the outside but be honest it looks pretty good to those inside, deluded or not. Peace, love and devotion, we should all have such delusions. If you've returned to the religion of your childhood then you surely acknowledge that the experience of that is akin to the experience premies have but jsut a pale reflection. Some of you have rather bizaare beliefs that are only available in California and I do not mean to include you in this conversation. Theoretical knowledge, as enjoyable as it is, is not enough. A strong argument can be made that Elan Vital and its brief history fits into the spiritual traditions of the human race and another one can be made saying the opposite. These arguments have been going on for thousands of years and will go on for thousands. I am not arguing with the claimed 89,990 other ex-premies but you guys here are definite losers. You're angry and bitter because Maharaji and his followers are having so much fun and success and you missed out. You were immature when you came to Knowledge and in that respect you never grew up. But for premies its not money or success that matter anyway. At programs in India I've seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of premies arrive on foot carrying their clothes and food in bundles, all the members of the family not just the teenagers. And they certainly seem to enjoy themselves at least as much as the Western premies. I've thought of a few problems that arose in my early practice of Knowledge, have a think about how you handled these situations and post your answers, you independant, irreverant lot: When I received Knowledge I told the Indian mahatma: 'Hey not so hard, you're hurting.' When he asked if everyone had felt Holy Name I said I was unsure but I'd get back to him after I'd practised for a few weeks if I was still unsure. When premies said Knowledge was going to bring the Millenium I knew that everyone who'd ever believed that before had been wrong, it was unlikely that this would change. When premies told me that the Astrodome was going to fly off to meet the Kohoutek Comet I went and looked at the foundations and said 'no way'. When premies said Bal Bhagwan Ji was the incarnation of Divine Intellect I thought 'I'm smarter than him and he doesn't seem to understand most of what he's talking about'. When premies said Bhole Ji was the incarnation of music I thought 'He can't even keep time with his band'. When premies said Raja Ji was the incarnation of Service I thought 'He's an air head'. Whan his mother Mata Ji said she was deposing her youngest son I thought 'A SatGuru is not appointed by his mother but by himself, in this case she can't be an Indian giver'. When Prem Pal married Marolyn Johnson I thought 'Great choice, I would have married her given the opportunity'. When Bob Mishler came to our community and said Guru Maharaji was now just a world leader not a guru I thought 'You can't stop being a SatGuru or a Perfect Master, this is bullshit that will fool no-one.' When Mishler had the ashrams closed, those of us in our ashram just kept on as before except we phoned the Ladies' Ashrams and invited everyone round for dinner. I thought throughout the 1970's and even mentioned it in Satsang. When donations were requested for the purchase and refurbishing of a Boeing 707 I said 'DLM couldn't afford the running costs of a 707, what about something smaller?' I can't even think of any problems from the 1980's and 1990's but then none of you were around then anyway. Did you guys just go along with this sort of stuff or do you have any other similar stories? Yes I know Maharaji is rich and I don't care. Yes I know only some of the people initiated enjoy it as much as I do but I don't care. Yes I know some of the PAMs are arseholes but I don't care. Yes I know that Maharaji doesn't appear to be saving the poor but they have always been with us and I do care enough to ensure some of my bounty goes to worthy causes. I see that Maharaji has plenty of competitors but none of them are doing any better than him and most of them a damn site worse. I'm sorry that it didn't work out for JW who seems a good person but I'm glad it didn't work out for Jim H. and John K. cause I don't want to meet them at a program because they seem like arseholes. See JW I don't now and never did pretend that my consciousness was different to what it is/was, what would be the point under the circumstances, I've never been trying to sell something and I had a realistic understanding of 'being in my mind' and 'negative'. I believe this site should improve, increase and update its nearly non-existent data about Elan Vital and raise the tone of its postings. It should give information on the number of hits the site gets, the number of people who post and the number it helps. So far I have only seen two 'aspirants' who needed help and they seem a little self obsessed to me. On the other hand it seems a pretty good reflection of the type of people I have said you are. Good luck Participant Participant I wander who the hell you think you are! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 17:28:31 (EST)
Poster: For Email: To: Everyone Subject: Les Message: Les, Thanks for answering. What do you think about god or the power, or whatever. You are writing a book, so I imagine you have many quotes, but what do YOU think about that? Hopefully you will take the time to answer. I know you and Jim have been discussing things, but let's keep this separate. You have read others words, had your own experiences, attended events, what is your view on this life, and the life itself. bill Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 15:30:13 (EST)
Poster: Larkin Email: Larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Business Class Guru Message: (apologies JWL) From the day of his birth he was made to feel tall The Lord among masters, the guru of all And we came in our thousands to answer his call A business-class guru is something to be Yes a business-class guru is something to be From rupees to riches, from east unto west From dhotis to breeches, he passed every test With a fashion babe model there at his request For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be We threw in our studies, abandoned careers To follow his footsteps for many long years How were we to know it might all end in tears? For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be So hungry for wisdom, so keen to believe Accept his Truth humbly and gladly receive That you don't see the spidery web that they weave For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be As soon as you've learned to accept the absurd You'll beg his mahatma to show you the Word And at last your poor soul will be free as a bird For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be Surrender all reason, surrender your will And eat up your satsang until you feel ill If you want to live like the Fool on the Hill For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be And there at his feet he will make you feel small By giving you no life instead of it all Till your heart's held to ransom, your back's to the wall For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be Something goes wrong and it starts to wear thin So many years passed, yet you're no further in And you've squandered your youth just devoting to him For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be And if you wanna be a sucker, then just follow me... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 20:26:56 (EST)
Poster: BARB Email: To: Larkin Subject: Re: Business Class Guru Message: (apologies JWL) From the day of his birth he was made to feel tall The Lord among masters, the guru of all And we came in our thousands to answer his call A business-class guru is something to be Yes a business-class guru is something to be From rupees to riches, from east unto west From dhotis to breeches, he passed every test With a fashion babe model there at his request For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be We threw in our studies, abandoned careers To follow his footsteps for many long years How were we to know it might all end in tears? For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be So hungry for wisdom, so keen to believe Accept his Truth humbly and gladly receive That you don't see the spidery web that they weave For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be As soon as you've learned to accept the absurd You'll beg his mahatma to show you the Word And at last your poor soul will be free as a bird For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be Surrender all reason, surrender your will And eat up your satsang until you feel ill If you want to live like the Fool on the Hill For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be And there at his feet he will make you feel small By giving you no life instead of it all Till your heart's held to ransom, your back's to the wall For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be Something goes wrong and it starts to wear thin So many years passed, yet you're no further in And you've squandered your youth just devoting to him For a business-class guru is something to be Said a business-class guru is something to be And if you wanna be a sucker, then just follow me... Maybe the problem is the very early followers were asked to leave, the ones that thought they had some 'control'..maybe not having contol makes one angry. How can anyone argue with his messaage. Money? I haven;t paid a cent all these years..as said before..the mind can play funny tricks and make one get away from the real truth ss Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: BARB Subject: Re: Business Class Guru Message: You say you haven't paid a cent all these years. Well what HAVE you devoted to Maharaji. Your labour perhaps? Are you devoting every waking minute to him. If you are not doing this then you can hardly call yourself a premie. Most premies who post here are part-time or weekend premies. They have never devoted the whole of their life and mind, body and soul to Maharaji. Are you one of those? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 21:23:11 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: ss Subject: Re: Business Class Guru Message: ss: Regarding: Maybe the problem is the very early followers were asked to leave, the ones that thought they had some 'control'..maybe not having contol makes one angry. I don't understand this statement. The ones that thought they had some control were asked to leave? Who asked them? When? How was the determination made that they 'thought' they had some control? If the ones that thought they had control left, and not having control makes one angry, then why are the ones that left angry? Wouldn't the ones that stayed be angry? And regarding: How can anyone argue with his messaage. Money? I haven;t paid a cent all these years..as said before..the mind can play funny tricks and make one get away from the real truth If you construct a message that no one can argue with, what it means is that the message is meaningless. It's like asking the survey question: Serial murderers should get free medical coverage and an annual pension. Agree or disagree? And if you haven't paid a cent all these years doesn't that make you a free-rider? Haven't you ever asked yourself the question: 'Who pays?' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 11:49:18 (EST)
Poster: For Email: To: Student Subject: Student Message: Hello Student, Thanks for responding. The other morning on the way to work at the alter job I thought I would try to talk to that 'father master' the nun's have as a monastary priest. I went looking for him and he invited me to sit down and talk. I told him I had talked to you and what did he think about anger. My luck, it turns out he gives seminars on the very subject. Since you said you like to sharpen your intellect, this could be an onion to peel that interests you. There are a few ways to approach this subject so to help decide approach, it would be helpful if first you would give your opinion about the subject of god. Or the power, or however you view it. Would you consider typing at length about that subject? You are right about anger can be lethal. Two men jumped from an airplane. The first one pulls the cord and the chute works perfectly. The second man pulls the cord- nothing happens. He keeps falling straight down, and as he passes his friend, the guy gets mad, unbuckles his harness, and shouts, 'So, you want to race, eh?' Someone asked Clinton, 'What about Rawanda?' and he said 'I never touched her!' bill Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 17:20:06 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: For Subject: Re: Student Message: Listed below are my definitions. You ask about my frame of reference. If our definitions don't match and this discussion is to continue, we have to agree to disagree. God - omnipresent, omnipotent, soul, love energy, needs no labels, no face, no personality, the ever-constant flow of life, the One... Human Being - infinite and finite. Yes, I believe we are part God, part of the One. The priviledge of being human is the opportunity to be conscious of that part of ourselves. Consciousness - the awareness of that infinite part of ourselves. Master - the most God-conscious, God-like human alive at the time. The one who has assumed the service of a lifetime. The one who needs no clarification. God incarnate, although the potential was always there for every human being. Most of us are lifetimes away from this level of consciousness. On anger, I can certainly see it as a state of unconsciousness. (Although the Bible characterizes God as an angry being many times.) I don't know. What I do truly believe is that, if we are all finite and infinite, we cannot eliminate all of our unconsciousness. After all, we do have a physical body. Suicide would be the only way to eliminate all worldliness. So is anger one of our characteristics that we should totally eliminate? Or, if that is not possible, should acting on anger always be avoided? I do not think so. My point on anger is this... it sometimes serves worthwhile purposes. Anger is sometimes called for. Is it ever 'good?' Good, bad...it is a tool. It can certainly be misused or overused. That is true for any tool: humor-laughter, sadness-crying, anger-verbalizing. Anger-fighting...well, I take karate. I don't like to fight. I've never been in a true, physical, anger-based fight. I don't even look for opportunities to free-spar in class, although I must to continue my training. It is a tool that I hope to never need. If I do need it, I would prefer fear to be the motivating emotion. Any emotion, anger or fear, could blind me if it exceeded the level of producing adrenaline. Adrenaline saves lives. Adrenaline rush from anger does not need to be sought out for the sheer rush. It is a tool. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 00:04:49 (EST)
Poster: for god incarnate Email: *.* To: Student Subject: and mili (Re: Student) Message: OK Mili, there you have it. the ever constant flow with no personality (except the masters meager personality). so feel your breath, and just imagine that you had the potential to be the god incarnate but you are lifetimes away from it. but if you want to see the god incarnate, watch the video and see what you will be like in a few lifetimes. Mili, is this really what you so devoutly believe? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:07:31 (EST)
Poster: Barb C Email: To: Everyone Subject: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:12:21 (EST)
Poster: Barb C Email: To: Everyone Subject: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:14:30 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? Truly it takes the benefit of your wisdom. What are we missing? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:27:58 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? MY heart tells me that everytime Guru Mayi sits on her golden throne, enshrouded in gold, silver, white and rose billows of silk, her soft, deer-complected skin, smooth as a fetus of love, heaving in time with servant's slow fan which, in turn, rises and falls naturally to the gentle, ageless drone of a harmonium, whose notes tumble in reckless joy, and she gives shaktiput, and I feel it deeper than anything ever, always deeper than I remembered it from the time before which, even then, was more than I'd ever expected, and my heart swoons beyond all senses, then, Barbara, I remember that the true masters are a dime a dozen (if you know where to shop). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:40:47 (EST)
Poster: Barb Email: To: Rick Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? Truly it takes the benefit of your wisdom. What are we missing? If you are thristy and you go to the fountain for water and it quenches the thirst then why try the next fountain when that one fulfilled you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:42:21 (EST)
Poster: Barb Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? MY heart tells me that everytime Guru Mayi sits on her golden throne, enshrouded in gold, silver, white and rose billows of silk, her soft, deer-complected skin, smooth as a fetus of love, heaving in time with servant's slow fan which, in turn, rises and falls naturally to the gentle, ageless drone of a harmonium, whose notes tumble in reckless joy, and she gives shaktiput, and I feel it deeper than anything ever, always deeper than I remembered it from the time before which, even then, was more than I'd ever expected, and my heart swoons beyond all senses, then, Barbara, I remember that the true masters are a dime a dozen (if you know where to shop). You are way in your mind..and if this is not what your looking for then why be so negative? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:47:31 (EST)
Poster: Barb Email: sclark29@idt.net To: Rick Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? Truly it takes the benefit of your wisdom. What are we missing? Not wisdom, not the mind-the whole thing is about a personal experience that we are all born with and have within us. I thing\k it is so easy to get caught up in the mind-when this whole thing that he is talking about is within us.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:53:05 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you didn't read my post closely (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Barbara, In the thread below I talk about following my own heart. My heart just doesn't say the same thing that yours does. Please don't try to tell me what my heart should say and I'll give you the same courtesy. I would also like to say that it is interesting to hear a premie call M the 'true master' out loud on this forum. Most of the premies whose posts I have read on here avoid mention of this like the plague. According to them, he is no more than some kind of meditation teacher now (In the 90's.) Thank you for the refreshing honesty. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:58:21 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: Barb Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Yeah Jim, why so negative? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 00:02:56 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Barb Subject: Way in my mind (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? MY heart tells me that everytime Guru Mayi sits on her golden throne, enshrouded in gold, silver, white and rose billows of silk, her soft, deer-complected skin, smooth as a fetus of love, heaving in time with servant's slow fan which, in turn, rises and falls naturally to the gentle, ageless drone of a harmonium, whose notes tumble in reckless joy, and she gives shaktiput, and I feel it deeper than anything ever, always deeper than I remembered it from the time before which, even then, was more than I'd ever expected, and my heart swoons beyond all senses, then, Barbara, I remember that the true masters are a dime a dozen (if you know where to shop). You are way in your mind..and if this is not what your looking for then why be so negative? Way in my mind No place for a bed The little Lord Jesus Is way off and dead Barb, dear, this IS what I'm looking for, namely a forum to sound off about my former Lord and Master, Maharaji. Really, who's being negative? You just come in here, on a Saturday night no less, and try to shut down our party. Who's side you on anyway? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 02:07:43 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Barb C Subject: And this is obviously all you've got to say. (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Barb: Don't I know you? Don't you have curly toenails? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 02:56:12 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Barb Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: I drank from the M fountain and my thirst was not quenched; I had been told it was, but I was still thirsty. I had to leave the 'true master' to have my thirst quenched. Maybe my thirst was stronger than yours. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 04:35:25 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Obviously, you are all in your minds......not listening to your hearts..I can't believe I have sat here and read this...what does it take to wake up and know that the true master is here???? By the content of your message, you appear to be well 'out of your mind'. Of course I'm in my mind, and I have never been so happy. Actually, a lot happier than when I pretended to not be in my mind. I think, which is a good thing in this society. Prem Pal S.R. is truly in his mind. Of course he is, he is not stupid enough to not think. Look at his business empire. Do you really think that this is the product of a mindless idiot? No, Prem Pal is a very astute thinker of the worst kind. Through his thoughts, a lot of people are pretty f**cked-up. ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 05:26:09 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Barb Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: You are way in your mind, Barb. If this ex-premie site is not what you're looking for then why be so negative about it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 05:47:00 (EST)
Poster: chr Email: To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: I cant believe this expression(in your minds) is still being used.I left M for the same reason I came to him-spiritual growth.The only thing that got into my mind while I was a premie was M himself-and it took quite a few difficult years to get him out and rediscover myself again .You seem sincere and I can understand how you(Barb C)may find what is said on this site hurtful.However, many of us ,for many,many years gave our lives to M and feel that our minds,hearts and psyches were played around with in a very destructive way. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 12:58:07 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Barb C Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Yep, I'm in my mind and it sure feels good after having tried to shut it down for ten years. But I'm also in my heart, and my body, I think the three kind of go together, don't you? Why do premies assume you can't have 'heart' and 'mind' together? Does exercising your rational thought processes and thinking for yourself (instead of just being fed programmed guru-speak) preclude ever having an experience of heart? Not in my post-Knowledge experience, it doesn't. All the posters on this site have many, many years of collective experience of practicing Knowledge and having devotion for Maharaji and living in the ashram, etc. and we have ALL come to the conclusion that we're better off without it and him (sorry, Him, let's not be disrespectful here). If you don't want to read what we have to say, then don't, you can always go back to watching a video of the 'true master' and that way you won't have to think about it all. P.S. It's not Barbara Casey, is it? P.S.S. As the UNCF declares: 'A mind is a terrible thing to waste!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 14:23:31 (EST)
Poster: Seymour Email: lost@mind To: Joy Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: I wholeheartedly agree Joy. I quite like being 'in my mind' . Why try and stop thoughts - they can be quite interesting, and I feel that the best form of 'meditation' is simply to observe the thought process and all that is going on around you, rather than try and put yourself in a different place by forcing your attention on something like your breathing. If you are desperately troubled by your thoughts then I suppose it is useful to have a technique to slow down ( there are many available) but unless you are grieving, psychotic or under the influence of some bad acid why not just enjoy the ride. The thing that matters in life is how we behave towards each other not how high we can get sitting in the lotus postion. Cheers, Seymour Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 15:00:29 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Seymour Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: Seymour, You say, I feel that the best form of 'meditation' is simply to observe the thought process and all that is going on around you, rather than try and put yourself in a different place by forcing your attention on something like your breathing. This is very similar to what my Buddhist meditation teacher taught. In that form of meditation, you were not to try and suppress thoughts, but rather be aware of them floating by like clouds on the horizon, making no judgements on them, good or bad, or imagine yourself like an old man watchng children at play. There are MANY different types of meditations out there, legitimate ones, which can be used to calm any of the states you mentioned, or just cope with daily living. But the legitimate ones don't have opportunistic gurus attached to them, and are freely available to all. The meditation I practiced while a Buddhist was not mandatory, and the texts said you could start with as little as five minutes a day, and work up to however long you felt was right for you. It was really fun to try practicing it for just five minutes at a time, as I had so much guilt-trip programming from the DLM days that meditation HAD to be minimum of an hour, and after awhile I settled into a 15 minute a day routine, which fit into my schedule nicely, and there was no guilt about having to do more. And now that I don't do it much any more I don't have guilt either, that I'm not going to attain realization or am going to hell or something. Maharaji lays all that on you along with his 'Knowledge', saying things along the lines of if you do not practice it properly it will rot in you like two tons of vegetbles going bad. A 'true master' like that I can live without! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 15:02:05 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: To: Joy Subject: Italics (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Sorry about most of that coming out in italics. I'm still not sure how to just clip a piece of a post and make it come out italic, so the final paragraphi should NOT be in italics, and the one above it should be, with the <>'s around it (that's how it looked in this little box). Hopefully Forum III will be easier! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 19:28:08 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Joy Subject: Re: Italics (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Hmmm... apparently the Forum Elves have fixed your post. Check out the Forum Help page link at the top of the index page for a better way to italicize :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 20:23:58 (EST)
Poster: BARB Email: To: chr Subject: Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds Message: HOW? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 23:38:02 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: BARB Subject: Be advise, BARB isn't saying anything. (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: HOW? All: She's just baiting. Isn't it obvious? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 23:39:25 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: BARB Subject: Be advised, BARB isn't saying anything. (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: HOW? All: She's just baiting. Isn't it obvious? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 10:10:28 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Re: And this is obviously all you've got to say. (Re: Obviously, you are all in your minds) Message: Barb: Don't I know you? Don't you have curly toenails? -Scott Scott, I'm sure there is some religously historical connection to the curly toenails that I am ignorant of but I just loved your post. Maybe M sends premies here to test them and if they make the grade they get to kiss his feet! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 21:44:42 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: The 'Who Are You' Question Message: The first night I went to a satsang program was in L.A. There was a black guy named Harry Paine giving satsang. He was talking about how people are not their body. That if you have your arm amputated, it isn't you; you're still there. And if you have your other arm amputated, that isn't you either; you're still there. I think he said if you die, you're body's still there but that isn't you. And he went on and on, and it was as boring a satsang as I would hear in the next ten years. The next satsang was Joan Apter and it was mind altering; that's the one that sold me. And I don't even remember a word she said. But the theme about 'who are you' and 'you're not your body', 'you're not your career', etc. was one I heard many times for years. It was often the subject at introductory programs and it seemed like it hooked people in, as good as anything else. Of course, it isn't unique to maharaji but it strikes a chord with a lot of people. We all want to know who we are. Premies always thought they had found 'who they were'. So the question is... who did you think you were as a premie? And who do you think you are now? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 14:58:04 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Everyone Subject: A Little Door Has Closed Message: There was an intriguing little door. Inside was a long, dark and very scary passageway. Some people told me, 'there is something wonderful down the dark hall. You have to go through the dark hallway to get there, but it will be worth it on the other side.' There was a man guarding the doorway. Sometimes he said things that sounded very wise and he seemed kind. He told me that he wanted me to have this great thing, too. But there was something about this man that I did not trust. For one thing, sometimes he wasn't very nice. Sometimes he shouted at the people who told me that the doorway was wonderful. At times he would tell them to do one thing and then to do the opposite himself. I wanted to find the wonderful thing down the dark passageway. I wanted to trust the man. I was intrigued by the door. I tried very hard to make myself trust in what the other people had told me. After all, they had all been down the hallway. They knew. But something about the door was frightening me. Some voice inside of me said,'you cannot trust that man. The thing that you want to get is not worth the journey down that dark hall.' I was very confused. Then I met some other people. They told me, 'Listen, we have been through the door, too. It was dark and some bad things happened to us. You are right not to trust the man or the passageway. Listen to your own heart and think your own thoughts.' Then they showed me the thing that I had been longing to see and I realized that these people spoke the truth. As soon as I understood this the man guarding the door disappeared and the little door closed. The End Thanks everyone, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 15:01:45 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: VP Subject: Re: A Little Door Has Closed Message: Who'd have thought twenty-five years ago we'd be using parables to teach doubt? Nice story, Bezzlebub. We'll have to run it in the next issue of 'And It Is The Mind.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 15:44:19 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: A Little Door Has Closed Message: Sorry, Jim, I know how you hate parables. This one actually is a true story (minus the door, or course, which I made up) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 15:46:05 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Typo (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: Sorry, Jim, I know how you hate parables. This one actually is a true story (minus the door, or course, which I made up) VP That should have read 'of course' instead of 'or course.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 16:46:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: VP Subject: Re: A Little Door Has Closed Message: Sorry, Jim, I know how you hate parables. This one actually is a true story (minus the door, or course, which I made up) VP No, I don't hate parables. I liked yours. I just hate people hiding behind them or other figures of speech. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 18:35:46 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: People Subject: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: Some of the best times I had with the Knowledge were in the first year after I received it and before I was persuaded to devote my life to Maharaji. My conclusion is that the meditation techniques can be very useful to some people at certain times in their lives when an alternative self experience is desired. But the following of Maharaji is not conducive to the personal and private practise of meditation. Following Maharaji is likely to take somebody AWAY from any experience of self through meditation. My reason for writing this post is that there may be people reading this forum who want to try some meditation with the object of exploring their own awarness. The experience of awarness from meditation is a personal thing that some people may want to experience. You do not have to become a devotee of Maharaji to experience it. If you want to experience something from meditation that is not a part of any trip then it can easily be achieved. If anyone would like to get some of the benefit of my own experience of meditation they are welcome to email me if they would like any tips one how to make it an easy practise and also I will answer any questions on the subject, to the best of my ability based upon my experience. I began meditating on these techniques when I was 19 years old and am now 45. Much experimentation over these years has brought me to some conclusions which differ remarkably from Maharaji's teachings or methods. For instance, the hour long meditation session that Maharaji insists on is not necessary in order to have some enhancing experience. Many ex-premies have been put off meditation by Maharaji's rantings and ravings. I was put off meditation for about five years, myself. Now I see it in a very different light. Away from Hindu dogma and false devotion or expectations, there is a value in practising non-fanatical meditation but only if the idea appeals to you. If you like swimming then there is a great benefit to be had from swimming. Similarly, if you like meditation, there is a benefit to be had. None of the benefits I've experienced even remotely resemble anything that Maharaji talks about. So there you have it - there is a door which needn't close if someone wants to walk through it. There is nobody to follow through that door but yourself and you are the master in that domain. Meditation has shown me that I am my own master. You are your own master. I would be happy to enter into dialogue on this subject, either privately by email or on the forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 18:53:44 (EST)
Poster: lg Email: To: David Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: David I agree with you that we are our own master, I would add also that we are the creator of our own experience (good and bad), and therefore take our own responsability for them. I am always open to deepen my own spiritual experience. Would you have other meditation techniques (other than M.'s that is). Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 20:44:15 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: David Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: David: Regarding: There is nobody to follow through that door but yourself and you are the master in that domain. Meditation has shown me that I am my own master. You are your own master. I would be happy to enter into dialogue on this subject, either privately by email or on the forum. I don't see anything wrong with this sentiment, but I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't have accomplished much in my life were it not for some authority figures along the way. Although I can only speak for myself I think that basically I'm lazy and working to fulfill someone else's expectation for me sometimes gets me going. At a certain point in the process I can pick it up myself and carry on, but am I really my own master? I mean... I didn't make myself, did I? I'm not arguing with you, I'm just not so sure it's that simple. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 23:20:52 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: A Little Door Has Closed Message: Sorry, Jim, I know how you hate parables. This one actually is a true story (minus the door, or course, which I made up) VP No, I don't hate parables. I liked yours. I just hate people hiding behind them or other figures of speech. Thanks. I agree. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 00:14:25 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: David Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: David, I agree with you that the door to yourself doesn't have to close. In my story the door was really a different door. It was the door to the whole devotion to M trip. The Knowledge was the wonderful thing promised, but you had to do the dark passageway (devotion, etc.) to get there. I never trusted it. It was untrustworthy and so was Maharaji. My heart and mind told me so, but the pull to get knowledge was so great that I ignored my own intuitions and pursued it anyway, even when it felt wrong. I have done some meditation since finding knowledge on the site. I am really not trying to discourage anyone from investigating themselves or God or meditation, etc. I am just saying that the temptation to do this within Maharaji's cult environment was the wrong door for me to enter. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 00:58:59 (EST)
Poster: And I lived Email: To: Everyone Subject: Happily Ever After! (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: Did I forget to put this part at the end? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 04:41:31 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: VP Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: I don't practise any other meditation techniques IG, and the others I have looked at don't really appeal to me. The TM meditation where one repeats a mantra to oneself seems rather a tedious and laborious method to me. I must admit that I haven't looked into many other meditation methods though. Some other people here have metioned other techniques which they've found stimulating. I understand and agree with your premise, VP. I agree with you Scott, that God is our ultimate master although I wouldn't call Him that, any more than I'd call my best human friend a 'master'. The idea that there is some Creator 'Lording it over us' like some divine authority has never been my realisation. Our best human friend will be very much on our side and always see the best in us, even when we denigrate or critisize ourselves. I know my best friend always points out my successes and good points whenever I fall into self doubt or depression. I even accused my best and most loyal friend of looking at me through rose tinted glasses once! Also my best friend will celibrate with me when I am successful. I think God is no different to such a friend as this. I've never been good with authority figures myself, being too much of a rebel. I agree that working to fulfill someone's expectation of you can be an important spur. I have never responded when it's done in an authoritarian way though. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 10:39:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: David Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: David: Regarding: The idea that there is some Creator 'Lording it over us' like some divine authority has never been my realization. I don't think my problem, at least, has to do so much with 'divine authority' as with human authority, that sometimes uses the divine to legitimate itself. The bind is that we really cannot escape the need for human authority so we have to figure out a way to make judgments between good and bad. Another aspect of the problem is the now rampant popular belief that authority is unnecessary. That's a problem because it could make governance all-but-impossible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Tory in Whig's clothing. There have been a variety of political formulas used to define legitimate authority: 'divine rights,' duties due elders and parents, 'nationalism,' the 'social contract,' and more recently 'majoritarianism.' Max Weber categorized these formulae into three groups: 'patrimonial,' 'rational-bureaucratic,' and 'charismatic.' The first is legitimation according to the dictates of the 'eternal yesterday.' In the second, authority is justified by the binding effect of laws and political institutions. In the third, authority is legitimated by the extraordinary personal gifts of a leader, and the confidence placed in his (or sometimes her) 'revelation, heroism, or other qualities of individual leadership.' My point is that a broad fantasy has gradually gained an unwarranted cache, that somehow authority is unnecessary and that we can continue to live in a well-ordered society without it... that we can be personally successful without the intervention of authority at critical points in our development, and that there is no real tension between freedom and obligation. 'Taint so, and it is the mark of an intellect frozen in adolescence to suggest otherwise. You will note that most of the premies posting at this site have opted for a resolution of this tension that doesn't require any further thought or deliberation, or any recognition of it as 'a problem.' They are 'enthralled' by charisma. This seems quaint when you are not under the thrall, but it must be a condition to which we are all susceptible. We benefit from submission to authority, and you'll see premies make this argument in various forms again and again. It is my feeling that they are wrong in the specifics, but not in general. The problem with authority has not disappeared because we've recognized Maharaji as a fraud. We have some additional insight because of this experience, however... an experience that could be of some value in inoculating ourselves and our readers against the next enthralling fraud. Inoculation is a good analogy, because it implies that you have to sustain an infection in order to be protected. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 19:00:46 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Scott T. Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: I hear what you say. I'd say there are two types of authority. The first I'd call dictatorial authority, where the benefits of the regime all go to the one(s) in authority. The second I would call democratic or consentual authority, where the benefits go to all, both above and below in the echelon. I've never liked dictatorial authority and that is why I'm opposed to Maharaji. Consenting authority is, of course, vital in any society and there is no need to oppose that. Maharaji's authority is a particularly nasty kind. One has an experience from meditation and then one is made to believe that such an experience is due to Maharaji. Since the experience is very real, one supposes that Maharaji's authority is real too. This is the trick that gurus work - making other people's personal experiences supposedly attributable to the guru. I was rarely, if ever, enthralled by Maharaji as a person and the reason I followed him was because I thought I owed my meditational experience to him. Those who follow him without any deep meditational experience are the true followers. They like him as a person or an icon. I used to wish that I was like them. Now I can see it was never necessary. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 15:10:12 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: David Subject: Re: One door closes, another one opens (Re: A Little Door Has Closed) Message: David: Regarding: I'd say there are two types of authority. The first I'd call dictatorial authority, where the benefits of the regime all go to the one(s) in authority. The second I would call democratic or consentual authority, where the benefits go to all, both above and below in the echelon. Not sure the proper distinction can be made on the basis of who gets the resources, although that may be an effect. By definition authority makes the decisions about resources. The distinction, I think, should be on the basis of how authority is chosen and maintained (legitimated). Have you read Dahl's book Polyarchy? I think that may be what you're getting at. There's also a discussion by J. Habermas that is along these lines in Legitimation Crisis (pg. 98): 'Because the reproduction of class societies is based on the privileged appropriation of socially produced wealth, all such societies must resolve the problem of distributing the surplus social product inequitably and yet legitimately. They do so by means of structural force, that is, by fixing in a system of observed norms the asymmetrical distribution of legitimate chances to satisfy needs.... As soon, however, as belief in the legitimacy of an existing order vanishes, the latent force embedded in the system of institutions is released... in the form of expansion of the scope of participation.' Somehow this process seems very familiar. Also, regarding: I was rarely, if ever, enthralled by Maharaji as a person and the reason I followed him was because I thought I owed my meditational experience to him. I agree that his personal qualities are not all that impressive, and that Knowledge is definitely his source of legitimacy, or to put it another way, his 'meal ticket.' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 11:33:24 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: A few questions for Les Message: Wow, yet another premie unable to think or talk freely about Maharaji. Here's Les on how to avoid honest discussion about his cult leader: Jim, You’re wrong about me falling into the “smarter that Maharaji crowd.” For one thing, I don’t equate experience and intelligence, but also I never thought Maharaji was making a mistake. 1) What do you mean, 'equating experience and intelligence'? 2) Are you saying Maharaji CAN'T make mistakes? 3) If M can make mistakes, tell us some he's made over the many years you've known him? 4) How many years have you known him anyway? 5) Was Maharaji mistaken when, at 12 years old, he claimed that he was the Saviour of Mankind, come with more power than ever before, and promised that he would establish peace in the world? 6) Was Maharaji mistaken when he said that his mother and three brothers were 'fully realized'? At the time, I thought it possible that Maharaji was letting things burn out (besides waiting to understand what to do). 7) Who told you that? 8) How do you know it wasn't just your 'mind''s view of life? 9) Where would Maharaji get this 'understanding' he was waiting for? 10) Did he ever get it? 11) What was it? 12) How do you know? In any case, I didn’t know what to do about it either except to protect myself from premies. That’s not to say they didn’t need protection from me as well, I just didn’t want to get involved in any religious or guru trips. 13) Did you trust Maharaji? 14) Did you think Maharaji was 'working' through everyone, including premies? 15) What 'religious' trips were you avoiding? 16) What 'guru' trips were you avoiding? 17) Where'd did you learn that you had to watch out for yourself so closely? 18) Did you think that other premies who simply thought Maharaji would take care of things were naive? 19) What did Maharaji mean by 'never leave room for doubt in your mind'? 20) What did he mean by 'always have faith in God'? You don’t have to quote Maharaji to me, I know what he said (not every word of course), and I don’t have a problem with his statements. 21) Why did Maharaji claim he was God? 22) Why did Maharaji say: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 23) Why did Maharaji say: Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 24) Why did Maharaji say: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? And not because of blind, stupid faith, but because I believe I understand them. 25) How do you know what Maharaji means? 26) Have you ever been wrong in understanding him? 27) Have other premies ever misunderstood him? You accuse me of being shallow (at another threadsite) but your interpretation of Maharaji’s statements show someone obsessed with surface matters—short thoughts. 28) Can you turn me on to a good psychiatrist? It would be ironic for a person impressed by evolution (as you’ve indicated) not to notice the often chaotic elements of nature evolution consistently works with and through to achieve its stunning goals. 29) How familiar are you with modern evolutionary theory? 30) How about evolutionary psychology? 31) What books have you read in the area? Why isn’t it possible, then, for the force of evolution to manifest through a human being, and to not concern itself with initial messes out of confidence that in the end evolutiveness will prevail? 32) Who said that particualr fantasy fo yours is impossible? 33) Is that what YOU believe? 34) If so, why? Are you freaked out at the casualties? 35) What's that supposed to mean? Have you noticed that whether its creator or mindless evolution that propels creation, casualties and death are part and parcel of it all? 36) Where do you see the work of a 'creator'? 37) Where do you see the work of 'mindless evolution'? [If you want to know if I'm aware of 'casualties' and death, I'd have to say yes, I'm aware of death and 'casualties'?.... I'm not sure what you're talking about.] When you communicate, I hear someone taking things personally that have nothing to do with you. 38) What do you mean? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 12:51:34 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: A few questions, Okay (Re: A few questions for Les) Message: Okay, maybe I'll give some sort of explanation a try. I imagine a lot of premies float through here, and are unable to continue for long. I think it's interesting to exchange ideas, but it's clear we're looking at things so differently that it is impossible to connect. So before I move on I'll take a little time to prepare an answer to some of your questions, which I'll post later as a new thread. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 13:26:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: A few questions, Okay (Re: A few questions for Les) Message: Okay, maybe I'll give some sort of explanation a try. I imagine a lot of premies float through here, and are unable to continue for long. I think it's interesting to exchange ideas, but it's clear we're looking at things so differently that it is impossible to connect. So before I move on I'll take a little time to prepare an answer to some of your questions, which I'll post later as a new thread. Les, I look forward to your replies. I'm disappointed that you'll only answer 'some' of my questions. Forgive me for anticipating that the ones you don't touch will be the most challenging. You believe it's clear we'll never 'connect.' I'm not sure what that means. I see it this way -- your belief system (or whatever you want to call it -- 'worldview' if you prefer) either does or does not allow you to interact with the world rationally. If it does, you should have no problem discussing Maharaji honestly and fairly. Example? Maharaji said those three things I quoted to you. I have never yet found a premie who can actually discuss their master's own words without playing games. Can you? See, back in 1973 I wouldn't have had any difficulty at all discussing those quotes. Take the last one. What does it mean? Just what it says: the Lord is here, his name is Guru Maharaj Ji, he has come to save the whole world, there's no time for any distractions, no point in being shy, time to shout it in the streets, etc. etc. Simple. Ask me today what it means and I'd say the same thing. Simple. Ask a premie today what it means and... well, you're right about one thing. Not too many premies can stand hanging out here too long. But why is that? Just because Maharaji has clearly blown it. I look forward to your replies. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 09:42:17 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset Message: You are a talkative bunch... I'll compile the archive now. To reset your visited links: Netscape: Click on Options on your top Menu Select General Preferences Select Appearance Click on Expire Now to expire your links Internet Explorer: Click on View on your top Menu Select Options Select Navigation Click on Clear History to expire your links Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 09:51:40 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Brian Subject: Clear links in Navigator 4.0 (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Brian & everyone: The procedure for clearing links in the new version of Netscape 4.0# is similar to IE 3.0#: Click on Edit Select Preferences Highlight Navigator in the directory tree on the left Click on Clear History to expire your links -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 10:48:08 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Archive is Online (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Okay, it's readable. Would have posted this a bit sooner, but I got caught up in reading it :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 19:33:19 (EST)
Poster: Paula(not guru related post-4.0 related Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Clear links in Navigator 4.0 (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Brian & everyone: The procedure for clearing links in the new version of Netscape 4.0# is similar to IE 3.0#: Click on Edit Select Preferences Highlight Navigator in the directory tree on the left Click on Clear History to expire your links -Scott Please, How to clear cache memory and disk cache in 4.0?Are items cleared from cache forever somewhere on hard drive or do they dissapear into nothing? thanks to you Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 20:03:20 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Paula Subject: Re: Clear links in Navigator 4.0 (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Are items cleared from cache forever somewhere on hard drive or do they dissapear into nothing? I guess they disappear into nothing, given those choices. They aren't saved elsewhere on the disk. Paradise numbers messages starting over from #1 after every reset, so you have to clear visited links in order to tell which messages you have or haven't read yet. Forum III won't have this problem, and resets (as they occur here) won't happen. Instead, entire threads will be pushed off the bottom of the index when the number of active posts reaches a certain level. These displaced threads will move into an inactive index where you can still read them, although you won't be able to reply to them. When enough of them pile up on the inactive index, an archive will be compiled and they will be cleared from the database. If the webmaster falls into a coma instead of compiling the archives, the forum will lock itself to any further posts until after a compile has cleared out the inactive posts. Post numbers themselves can reach over 1.6 million before you have to reset your links (if you still have the same computer after all that time). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 09:43:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Clear links in Navigator 4.0 (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Brian and Paula: Regarding: Forum III won't have this problem, and resets (as they occur here) won't happen. That's wonderful news. Resetting the links was a nuisance since I sometimes visit sites other than this Forum. Also, regarding: Are items cleared from cache forever somewhere on hard drive or do they dissapear into nothing? Clearing the cache is not the same as clearing the history to get rid of visited links. In Nav 4.0# you clear the cache by editing preferences and then clicking on 'advanced' and then 'cache' in the directory tree window, and then using the button to clear out the disk or memory cache. That gets ride of the pages stored in dynamic and/or disk memory, but it won't clear the links. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |