Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 11

From: Mar 21, 1998

To: Mar 28, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5


Jim -:- Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 03:01:21 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 11:28:46 (EST)
___John K. -:- Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:08:10 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:52:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:10:52 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:31:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:57:44 (EST)
___Jim -:- Mili's funny jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:02:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:06:15 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:16:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- Entropy -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:26:13 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:31:31 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Entropy -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:38:32 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:43:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:58:34 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:07:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:11:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:15:14 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:17:50 (EST)
___John K. -:- I disagree -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:22:19 (EST)
___Robyn -:- To Mili -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:29:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:29:03 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: I disagree -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:32:01 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:37:23 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:38:03 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:41:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:48:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Mili -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:51:04 (EST)
___John K. -:- Swinging along, singing a song -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:52:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Swinging along, singing a song -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:59:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:13:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:22:32 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:27:01 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:35:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Big mistake -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:36:34 (EST)
___Jim -:- That's not what we're talking about -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:38:29 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:42:21 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Swinging along, singing a song -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:43:19 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: That's not what we're talking about -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:43:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:12:52 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:45:04 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:04:01 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Swinging along, singing a song -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:20:38 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:35:29 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:56:03 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: I disagree -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:09:50 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Fudge! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:10:29 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Fudge! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:13:32 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:33:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:08:34 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:14:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Grrrrr! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:23:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:31:21 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:33:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: I disagree -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:34:55 (EST)
___Jim -:- You're right. You didn't -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:42:35 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:43:11 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:51:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: You're right. You didn't -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:56:42 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:09:34 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:09:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:17:42 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:37:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:40:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:43:00 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:04:04 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:26:41 (EST)
___Katie totally off topic -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:34:13 (EST)
___VP -:- Renaissance Turtles -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:57:36 (EST)
___Katie off topic -:- Re: Renaissance Turtles -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:04:15 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Fudge! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:11:17 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:12:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:21:44 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:24:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:28:27 (EST)
___VP -:- To John K.-you arsehole, you -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:34:19 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:46:04 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:48:40 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:52:04 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:52:13 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:55:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:55:35 (EST)
___Katie very off topic -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:57:34 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:00:25 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:10:34 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:14:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:36:51 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:52:08 (EST)
___gumby -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:53:30 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet? -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:10:24 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:25:15 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:32:29 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:44:16 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:53:47 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:54:04 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Off Topic: Links -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:57:50 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mili's funny jargon -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 02:13:36 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Off Topic: Links -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 02:24:22 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Off Topic: Links -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 07:53:56 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Renaissance Turtles -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:38:58 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:48:49 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:54:23 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:58:11 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: And furthermore -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 11:21:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Fudge! -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 15:48:33 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 16:25:38 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 17:38:10 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:22:49 (EST)
___Jim -:- Hey, that was supposed to be a reply to Rick ! -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:24:30 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:38:25 (EST)
___sat guroovy -:- purrrrrrrrrr -:- Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:53:19 (EST)
___David -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1998 at 04:50:48 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: The Road Less Traveled -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1998 at 10:45:56 (EST)

Anon -:- and another letter from 1976.... -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:12:22 (EST)
___Anon -:- Take 2..sorry -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:19:02 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Take 2..sorry -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:32:34 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Take 2..sorry -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:40:14 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Take 2..sorry -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:08:37 (EST)
___sat guroovy -:- good post anon! -:- Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:00:43 (EST)

Anon -:- One of my old letters! -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
___Jim -:- Love it! This is a great idea -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:23:43 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Love it! This is a great idea -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:29:46 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 22:31:58 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 11:50:45 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:28:37 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:42:18 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:21:09 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: One of my old letters! -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:31:43 (EST)
___Jim -:- Yeah, one of my roommates DID -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:51:29 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Yeah, one of my roommates DID -:- Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:53:46 (EST)



Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Do you think it's time to let Chris and Mili be Ex's yet? You know, these guys deserve some recognition. Their more pompous, if slick, fellow premies come and go. No real committment, just a lot of empty promises. But Chris? Mili? Like swallows in a chimney, rats in the attic or alligators in the sewer -- yes, I know Mili; I'm giving you this one -- Mili and Chris have nested here. Mili's post the other day, where he fece-tiously begged to be an Ex was touching. For once I could feel his pain. How he'd like to be able to laugh and make sense with the rest of us! Chris... well Chris just needs a place to rest for a while, do a little thinking, you know? Anyways, I'm not saying they'd have to quit fooling aroundI'm just saying, know what I mean?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 03:01:21 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Like swallows in a chimney or alligators in the sewer -- yes, I know Mili; I'm giving you this one -- Mili and Chris have nested here. Anyways, I'm not saying they'd have to quit fooling around. Jim, I know, a couple Wise Owls. Regards, CD A few interesting books - for the mind of course.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 11:28:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Hoo-Hoo! Jim, you know, since you have ventured into the zoological domain here, I thought I'd let you know that you remind me of this crazed German Shepherd dog that I once knew. You see, we had satsang in a house in the suburb a long time ago, and there was a long entrance to the front door. On one side there was a meshed wire fence, and behind it, this really rabid, drooling dog was waiting to scare the daylights out of anyone who might be passing by. He got to me the first few times, then I just got used to it. I used to wonder why this dog was doing this, when no one was actually provoking him, and then I realized that he was stuck behind the fence and was probably frustrated and bored. Or was he genetically programmed to do that?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:08:10 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili: I remember that I heard Mahatma Ji explain, in satsang of course, that dogs are so loving and friendly to humans because they were humans in their last life, but they were premies that spaced out, so they desperately want another chance to realize 'this' Knowledge in 'this' life. Of course that German Shepard you tell about seems to hate humans, so maybe dogs who hate people used to be ex-premies who just love to hate everything, becuase of course ex's are totally negative and hateful and angry at the world.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:52:09 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili: I remember that I heard Mahatma Ji explain, in satsang of course, that dogs are so loving and friendly to humans because they were humans in their last life, but they were premies that spaced out, so they desperately want another chance to realize 'this' Knowledge in 'this' life. Of course that German Shepard you tell about seems to hate humans, so maybe dogs who hate people used to be ex-premies who just love to hate everything, becuase of course ex's are totally negative and hateful and angry at the world. Aw JK, why did you have to bring up those old concepts. M would sometimes speak about reincarnation, but it was always tongue in cheek. My theory is that consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter which gets its fuller expression in higher life forms. A rock is less conscious than a sponge. Stephen Jay Gould, on the other hand, is denying the belief that any life form is inherently 'superior' to any other. Who's to say thhat sharks, for instance, are not superior to human beings. They have evolved perfectly into a niche of the eco-system where they did not have the necessity to evolve further for millions of years. Why don't you go do something more useful than write these inane posts here, like go get raped by a mahatma or something...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:10:52 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Why don't you go do something more useful than write these inane posts here, like go get raped by a mahatma or something... Dear Mili - PLEASE don't make jokes about rape and so forth. It's not funny, and can be hurtful to people who have had an experience like that. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:31:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Why don't you go do something more useful than write these inane posts here, like go get raped by a mahatma or something... Dear Mili - PLEASE don't make jokes about rape and so forth. It's not funny, and can be hurtful to people who have had an experience like that. Katie OK, Katie, sorry about that. As I was saying, M would sometimes speak about reincarnation, but it was always tongue in cheek. My theory is that consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter which gets its fuller expression in higher life forms. A rock is less conscious than a sponge. Stephen Jay Gould, on the other hand, is denying the belief that any life form is inherently 'superior' to any other. Who's to say that sharks, for instance, are not superior to human beings. They have evolved perfectly into a niche of the eco-system where they did not have the necessity to evolve further for millions of years. The chemical elements of which the Earth is made required billions of years of galactic and stellar evolution for their manufacture in the stellar interiors, for their distribution through interstellar space by explosions and stellar winds, and for their subsequent accumulation in the clouds of dusty hydrogen from which our sun was born. Then, following the formation of the Earth from that solar nebula, the development of such a complicated organism as man required another several billion years of genetic evolution, from the blue-green algae through the simple poly-celled organisms, the mud worms, the chordates, the vertebrates, the fish, the finbacks, the mammals, and, finally among the mammals, the primates, including man. (There is, of course, nothing final about it. We think of it as final only because we see it from our own point of view.) All these things arise by transformational causation from hydrogen but how can the hydrogen exist without perception? Is there an objective universe existing without perceiving subjects? First we must ask: What is perception? We think of ourselves as perceivers, but we are smart enough to understand that our sense of perception is associated with the consciousness of a highly evolved, multi-celled organism with an elaborate brain made up of billions of individual cells. And we also understand that we are not, in any way, aware of the consciousness or the perceptions of the individual cells of which our bodies or even our brains are composed. Is perception limited to such poly-celled organisms or do the individual cells have their own perceptions? We know that the individual cells do have their own perceptions, or at least that they respond to the same sort of stimuli as those to which we, as poly-celled organisms, respond. In fact, our own sense perceptions depend entirely on the fact that even single protoplasmic cells respond to gravity, kinetic energy, radiation, electricity and magnetism. The interesting thing is that just as our sense perceptions depend on the perceptions, or at least the responses, of single protoplasmic cells, just so the perceptions, or responses, of the individual cells depend on the responses of the individual atoms to those same five forms of energy. Even the primordial hydrogen atoms respond to gravity, kinetic energy, radiation, electricity and magnetism.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:57:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Did you get that? OK. Let's go on. Every atom of hydrogen is gravitationally aware of every other atom. It is subject to falling by gravity, radiating when bumped, and is made of electrical particles which respond to the electrical and magnetic fields. All transformational causation depends on this native atomic sentiency. The problem of how could the apparition exist in the absence of perception does not, therefore, arise. The question that does arise is: How do we fit into this scheme? How is it that we seem to have energy of our own, the so-called 'vital energy'? And what is the difference between the quick and the dead? As Erwin Schrodinger pointed out in his little book 'What Is Life?, every living organism has the problem of directing upon itself a stream of negative entropy. If it succeeds, it is alive. If it fails, it is dead. Entropy is a measure of the scrambledness of energy. Every machine, and every living organism, scrambles the energy in its environment, and must, therefore, have a source of energy less scrambled at the start. For all embodied beings, negative entropy is food. For a vulture on a mountain slope, feeding on the carcass of a deer, his source of negative entropy is the reducing agents in the carcass of the deer, and the oxidizing agency of the air which he breathes. For the deer, it was the reducing agents in the plants which she ate, and the oxygen in the air which she breathed. For the plants, the source of negative entropy, by which they produce both the reducing agents which we eat as well as the free oxygen in the atmosphere which we breathe, is the radiation of the sun. Finally, for the sun, its source of negative entropy is the dispersed, primordial hydrogen, falling together by gravity. Locally, the universe appears to be running down. The usability of the energy is running down. Gravitational energy, which is completely usable, completely unassociated with entropy, is being converted to kinetic energy, then to radiation and so forth, and at almost every step the entropy increases. Occasionally it remains unchanged, but it never goes down. It is easier to scramble an egg than to unscramble it. All living organisms live in this cascade of increasing entropy by channelling bits of the increase through their forms. That is what we feel to be our vital energy. It seems to be our own. Really it is not. The source of negative entropy is not in us but in the environment in which we live. If we give up eating and breathing, what we feel as our vital energy will promptly run down. Life does not exist in what the chemists call a state of equilibrium. If the energies of the universe ever reach equilibrium, life will be snuffed out. It is only the universal cascade of increasing entropy that makes life possible. And life is always a struggle. Always the channelling of negative entropy requires discrimination on the part of the organism, not the discrimination between the perceiver and the perceived, but between the organism and its environment, between the eater and its food. Through the discrimination between light and dark, the plant must spread its leaves to catch the sun. Through the discrimination between plants of different species, the deer must browse. The snake must take the frog and leave the stones. Unfortunately, the discrimination between food and eater is not objective, so that, to quote the Panchamahabhuta Sutras, 'What to one is body, to another is food.' The deer sees herself as eater and the grass as food, but the tiger stalks the deer, and the vulture waits. There is another characteristic by which we discriminate between the quick and the dead, between the animate and the inanimate, and that is the ability of the animate to reproduce their kind. In order that an individual organism should survive, it is necessary for it to direct a stream of negative entropy upon itself. In order that a race of organisms, a species, should survive, it is also necessary that the individuals have a mechanism for passing the genetic code to a future generation. Richard Dawkins, however, gives a striking example in 'The Blind Watchmaker' of possible evolution in inanimate matter, i.e. clays. So, to come back to my original point, we are nothing special, just species of primates partaking of the grand spectacle of life. The line between animate and inanimate matter is arbitrarily drawn, just as many other maps that we draw to make sense of ourselves and the world. It's not bad to draw maps, but it is a mistake to regard them as final truth and attribute them some reality of their own. The maps describe terrain, but are not the terrain itself. The menu is not the meal itself.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:02:39 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
'Potentiality' is only used by Tony Robbins and various other new age hucksters eager to impress. One in a while, Mili posts some opaque gruel like this above. I think it's meant to make up for his refusal/inability to actually discuss things. I'd say his transformational causation as a highly-evolved poly-cell organism isn't really living up to its potentiality, if you know what I mean.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:06:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Mili, I appreciate the apology - thanks. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:16:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, How much do you appreciate the apology? Let's talk about Mili's character a bit. This morning he's called me a rabid dog (why? Because I won't accept premie evasion?). He's laughed off JW's comments (really thoughtful and well-expressed as usual) as those of someone who 'never had that experience'. And he's suggested that John get raped by a Mahatma - not a funny joke in its own right, certainly not funny to any of the readers here who actually DID have that experience. So, tell me Katie, how much do you appreciate any of Mili's apologies?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:26:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Entropy (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili - I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but entropy is a fascinating process (to me anyway) so I'd like to add a few things. The entropy of a system is usually measured by the degree of disorder or randomness of a system. In other words - the greater the disorder, the higher the entropy. As you said, something that's dead has higher entropy than something that is alive. Also, the entropy of the universe always increases (that's why we can't go backwards in time, and can't reverse certain processes), thus the universe tends toward disorder. The opposite of entropy is really order. One of my chemistry books (Brescia et al. - a great book) says 'Order is a rare and unexpected quality, with life itself as the extreme example of order. Disorder, on the other hand is commonplace and we associate it, correctly, with neglect, deterioration, and death.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:31:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, How much do you appreciate the apology? Let's talk about Mili's character a bit. This morning he's called me a rabid dog (why? Because I won't accept premie evasion?). He's laughed off JW's comments (really thoughtful and well-expressed as usual) as those of someone who 'never had that experience'. And he's suggested that John get raped by a Mahatma - not a funny joke in its own right, certainly not funny to any of the readers here who actually DID have that experience. So, tell me Katie, how much do you appreciate any of Mili's apologies? Jim - I asked Mili not to make jokes about rape, and he said he was sorry that he said it. I do appreciate his apology a lot. It's not all that easy to apologize in public and Mili usually doesn't do it (neither does anyone else on here for that matter.) I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you think he should apologize for calling you a rabid dog? As far as I'm aware, you and Mili often engage in name-calling, and 'rabid dog' is not the worst thing that's passed in between you guys.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:38:32 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili - I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but entropy is a fascinating process (to me anyway) so I'd like to add a few things. The entropy of a system is usually measured by the degree of disorder or randomness of a system. In other words - the greater the disorder, the higher the entropy. As you said, something that's dead has higher entropy than something that is alive. Also, the entropy of the universe always increases (that's why we can't go backwards in time, and can't reverse certain processes), thus the universe tends toward disorder. The opposite of entropy is really order. One of my chemistry books (Brescia et al. - a great book) says 'Order is a rare and unexpected quality, with life itself as the extreme example of order. Disorder, on the other hand is commonplace and we associate it, correctly, with neglect, deterioration, and death.' Yes, I think you've grasped that concept clearly, Katie. Entropy is a fascinating thing, and physicists are still puzzled by the Second Law of Thermodynamics which should not be there as it upsets their notions of a perfectly symetrical universe, i.e. an universe in which time would have to be reversible. As regards 'order'. it seems that our brains are hard-wired to perceive order in seemingly random things, so that would indicate that there is an evolutionary advantage in perceiving the world in such a way. However, it may be that this very perception of order affects our scientific theories in a 'non-objective' way, giving them a subjective slant. Namely, we may be trying hard to read order into events where it is plausible that no order may exist at all.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:43:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, How much do you appreciate the apology? Let's talk about Mili's character a bit. This morning he's called me a rabid dog (why? Because I won't accept premie evasion?). He's laughed off JW's comments (really thoughtful and well-expressed as usual) as those of someone who 'never had that experience'. And he's suggested that John get raped by a Mahatma - not a funny joke in its own right, certainly not funny to any of the readers here who actually DID have that experience. So, tell me Katie, how much do you appreciate any of Mili's apologies? Jim - I asked Mili not to make jokes about rape, and he said he was sorry that he said it. I do appreciate his apology a lot. It's not all that easy to apologize in public and Mili usually doesn't do it (neither does anyone else on here for that matter.) I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you think he should apologize for calling you a rabid dog? As far as I'm aware, you and Mili often engage in name-calling, and 'rabid dog' is not the worst thing that's passed in between you guys. No, I'm just asking what Mili's apology means to you, that's all. What does it say? That he suddenly realizes that he was a complete asshole to call that woman who first mentioned her attack a liar? That he now fully understands how terrible it was to call Deena old and ugly? That he finally comprehends that this Mahatma expolitation problem, sexual and otherwise, was real? But then I guess Mili and I are pretty well two peas in a pod here. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, right?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:58:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:07:33 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie I think it's unfair -- misleading, really -- to say Mili and I insult each other quite often with nothing else. Yes, we insult each other. But why? I maintain that I say things to Mili, often fair, reasonable statements and questions and that he does the typical premie thing, evades or snaps back. If I insult Mili it's at the next stage, after he's behaved poorly once again. Can you or can you not see this? If you do see it, and agree with me that that's the pattern, then I think you should ask yourself if it's fair to me to excuse his insults as some sort of quid pro quo. If you don't see it, I'd be surprised and happy to find you a number of examples of what I'm talking about.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:11:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie Also, Jim, I feel that the quality of the communications on this forum is such that it makes it very hard for people to publically apologize or show any kind of vulnerability or doubt for fear of ridicule. The forum also seems to get polarized between the premies and the ex-premies, and this creates a situation where no one will publically criticize anyone in their particular camp (or say anything nice to anyone who is not). I personally get very tired of this situation - not sure how everyone else feels.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:15:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie I think it's unfair -- misleading, really -- to say Mili and I insult each other quite often with nothing else. Yes, we insult each other. But why? I maintain that I say things to Mili, often fair, reasonable statements and questions and that he does the typical premie thing, evades or snaps back. If I insult Mili it's at the next stage, after he's behaved poorly once again. Can you or can you not see this? If you do see it, and agree with me that that's the pattern, then I think you should ask yourself if it's fair to me to excuse his insults as some sort of quid pro quo. If you don't see it, I'd be surprised and happy to find you a number of examples of what I'm talking about. Jim, I think there are probably examples of both sorts of communication between you and Mili. I don't think Mili trusts you and that's why he often insults you when you ask him an 'fair, reasonable' question. I agree that you do make 'fair reasonable' statements, etc. to Mili, but I think your history of communication with Mili is such that his hostile responses aren't all that unwarranted.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:17:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Also, Jim, I feel that the quality of the communications on this forum is such that it makes it very hard for people to publically apologize or show any kind of vulnerability or doubt for fear of ridicule. The forum also seems to get polarized between the premies and the ex-premies, and this creates a situation where no one will publically criticize anyone in their particular camp (or say anything nice to anyone who is not). I personally get very tired of this situation - not sure how everyone else feels. Well, I'm criticizing YOU, aren't I? And don't I do it often enough? Hell, what do you want? As for befriending the 'other side.' Katie, of course. I love my fellow premies, ex and otherwise. My ever word to them is an attempt to share that love. Now, I feel so hurt. Like, what? You didn't KNOW that or something?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:22:19 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: I disagree (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie you say: 'I feel that the quality of the communications on this forum is such that it makes it very hard for people to publically apologize or show any kind of vulnerability or doubt for fear of ridicule.' I beg to differ with you on this one, Katie. I don't remember anyone ridiculing someone for apologizing. Also, I think the polarization is inevitable since we are publicly hammering their spiritual master. But of course, no one is forcing them to come out on this web site and read the stuff we write.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:29:00 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili, Mili, Mili, I was just reading along having my little thoughts and reactions and not going to respond because I am, as always, pressed for time but then your last statement: Why don't you go do something more useful than write these inane posts here, like go get raped by a mahatma or something... I sincerely hope that you had never read or forgot about the person who posted her not long ago and spoke of going thru that exact experience. Even if you didn't read it or remember it your statement is still EXTREMELY offensive. If you wrote it in response to the person who posted their experience and was raped by a mahatma, how dare you. How could you call yourself a premie, a follower of M, of love and light, the word. I am more dissapointed than I can express and hope it was a thoughtless oversight on your part.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:29:03 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie Also, Jim, I feel that the quality of the communications on this forum is such that it makes it very hard for people to publically apologize or show any kind of vulnerability or doubt for fear of ridicule. The forum also seems to get polarized between the premies and the ex-premies, and this creates a situation where no one will publically criticize anyone in their particular camp (or say anything nice to anyone who is not). I personally get very tired of this situation - not sure how everyone else feels. OK, guys, if reality were all that black-and-white, namely, premies on one side and ex-premies clearly on the other, then I would be sitting smugly and chuckling to myself 'Hey, they're quibbling with each other now!' BUT, things are not so black and white, I DON't hate anyone here, and this is NOT the battlefield of Kurukshetra. I think Katie hit upon the truth in that I've just been humiliated, insulted and ridiculed by Jim too many times. So, I don't feel inclined to even talk to him anymore, because I know that whatever I say he is PREJUDICED to consider me wrong. Also, I don't think he is scrupulous in administering his alleged adherence to 'honesty' to the trite rumor that invariably finds its way to this place. In fact, he seems prejudiced in favor of rumor and against facts and the truth. Also, I don't like Jim's disrespect for people like Bobby, and countless others. It is a consistent pattern of his behaviour and I don't think he either has the power to see it or the inclination to revise it. That's why I simply feel it's a waste of time to talk to him. That's the way I see it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:32:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: I disagree (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi John - You may be right about no one ridiculing anyone for apologizing. I think there is a fear that that might happen though. You're right about the fact that no one is forcing premies to read the forum. But I just wonder if the polarization makes premies who might possibly have doubts about Maharaji less inclined to express them. Also, I believe that there is a continuum between premies and ex-premies and that they are not actually two completely separate groups. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:37:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I think there are probably examples of both sorts of communication between you and Mili. I don't think Mili trusts you and that's why he often insults you when you ask him an 'fair, reasonable' question. I agree that you do make 'fair reasonable' statements, etc. to Mili, but I think your history of communication with Mili is such that his hostile responses aren't all that unwarranted. Katie, I've said a lot to Mili over the last two years but I don't think I've ever done anything but talk straight with him. It seems that you're saying that's not the case and that there have 'probably' been times I've been less than clear with him. Again, I admit that AFTER he squelches the prospect for a real dialogue I sometimes give him shit. Is that what you're talking about? If not, please tell me what you mean by 'I think there are probably both sorts of communication' between Mili and me. You're right that Mili doesn't trust me. But why is that? Again, Katie, what are you saying? Have I done something untoward to Mili to deserve his mistrust? Or could he possibly be all screwed up trying to defend the superbly indefensible fraud, Maharaji? Please don't damn me with ambiguity. Your last sentence actually, quite frankly, pisses me off. Who knows? Maybe you can prove the point in which case I'll have to take stock of things. But, if not, I'd expect one of those rare public apologies. Wouldn't you? Thanks sis, Jim
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:38:03 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Well, I'm criticizing YOU, aren't I? And don't I do it often enough? Hell, what do you want? As for befriending the 'other side.' Katie, of course. I love my fellow premies, ex and otherwise. My ever word to them is an attempt to share that love. Now, I feel so hurt. Like, what? You didn't KNOW that or something? Jim, I just don't know what to say! You're making me laugh, so I guess you win this round. Take care, Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:41:26 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, Jim, Mili, I wrote my response to Mili and then read Katie's so mine was a kind of duplicate but stronger because that is how it made me feel so I'm not sorry I wrote it. As far as the name calling, I to feel it is at an extreme level and counter productive from my point of view but most of the men seem to thrive on it so I put up with it but if I don't have time I often skip over posts by people who I've come to know as those who engadge in it. I'm not saying that none of you ever have anything good to say because that is not true for me but I could do with less name calling as I don't feel it does any good. Do any of you who read this think there is some good that may come out of it? Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:48:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Jim, I am sorry I made you mad, but what I meant was not that you hadn't been 'clear' with Mili, but that you had said a number of insulting things to him. Furthermore you are better at arguing than almost everyone else on the forum, so many of the premies are afraid to answer what seems like a simple question for fear you will trap them into some sort of admission that they didn't mean to say. I'm not sure if I can prove the point, and I will apologize if necessary, but check out the communication between you and Mili in Gumby's thread 'Who. Do You Think...' below. Please don't call me 'sis', if you would. It brings back bad memories.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:51:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: To Mili (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Robyn, In fairness to Mili, he did apologize for saying that.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:52:36 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Swinging along, singing a song (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Ah, an interesting insight Katie. You mean we all have the potential to swing either way? Hmmmm... I personally have been wanting to come on this forum and pretend to be a premie and argue with Jim. No premie has yet used what I think should be the correct line of reasoning for defending their belief in the guru. You think that David's admission to feeling 'love' for the former guru indicates that he still has a bit of the premie somewhere inside of him? Of course there is no arguing that every premie has a tremendous potential to be an ex premie. A plethora of doubts must abound in their consciousness. So far, do we know of any proclaimed premie who has become an ex premie due to this web page?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:59:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Swinging along, singing a song (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
No, I didn't really mean that we all had the potential to swing either way (being an ex-premie must be a higher entropy state, cause I feel like it can't be reversed.) All I meant is that there have been both premies and ex-premies who posted on here who had all kinds of opinions about Maharaji. A couple of people have said that they are neither premies or ex-premies (even though they had knowledge). I guess that's the middle of the continuum. I cannot think of any self-proclaimed premie who has become an ex-premie because of this site. I do know a number of people who were sort of sitting on the fence regarding Maharaji and have now definitely become ex-premies. By the way, I'd love to hear your 'premie' argument, and I imagine that Jim would too. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:13:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I think there are probably examples of both sorts of communication between you and Mili. I don't think Mili trusts you and that's why he often insults you when you ask him an 'fair, reasonable' question. I agree that you do make 'fair reasonable' statements, etc. to Mili, but I think your history of communication with Mili is such that his hostile responses aren't all that unwarranted. Katie, I've said a lot to Mili over the last two years but I don't think I've ever done anything but talk straight with him. It seems that you're saying that's not the case and that there have 'probably' been times I've been less than clear with him. Again, I admit that AFTER he squelches the prospect for a real dialogue I sometimes give him shit. Is that what you're talking about? If not, please tell me what you mean by 'I think there are probably both sorts of communication' between Mili and me. You're right that Mili doesn't trust me. But why is that? Again, Katie, what are you saying? Have I done something untoward to Mili to deserve his mistrust? Or could he possibly be all screwed up trying to defend the superbly indefensible fraud, Maharaji? Please don't damn me with ambiguity. Your last sentence actually, quite frankly, pisses me off. Who knows? Maybe you can prove the point in which case I'll have to take stock of things. But, if not, I'd expect one of those rare public apologies. Wouldn't you? Thanks sis, Jim Jim, I'll give it one more last try. You say you hurt and you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. Have you ever wondered if there is a connection between those two things? Why not try and 'connect the dots'? Maybe you hurt because you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. I don't see him as a fraud, and I don't hurt! If you are so intent in seeing him as a fraud, you'll try and find all kinds of 'proof' to support that. But, you seem to be having a hard time doing that. Try to relax, and see things more objectively. It's all in your head, man.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:22:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I'll give it one more last try. You say you hurt and you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. Have you ever wondered if there is a connection between those two things? Why not try and 'connect the dots'? Maybe you hurt because you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. I don't see him as a fraud, and I don't hurt! If you are so intent in seeing him as a fraud, you'll try and find all kinds of 'proof' to support that. But, you seem to be having a hard time doing that. Try to relax, and see things more objectively. It's all in your head, man. Mili - With all due respect, this argument doesn't make sense! (Plus, where did Jim say that he 'hurt'? I think he might have been being sarcastic.)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:27:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Jim, I am sorry I made you mad, but what I meant was not that you hadn't been 'clear' with Mili, but that you had said a number of insulting things to him. Furthermore you are better at arguing than almost everyone else on the forum, so many of the premies are afraid to answer what seems like a simple question for fear you will trap them into some sort of admission that they didn't mean to say. I'm not sure if I can prove the point, and I will apologize if necessary, but check out the communication between you and Mili in Gumby's thread 'Who. Do You Think...' below. Please don't call me 'sis', if you would. It brings back bad memories. Oh, you mean when I said to Mili, 'I'm sure you think quite the opposite but really, your answer here was stupid. It really shows you don't communicate clearly and, to your great misfortune, find some sort of paltry pride in banal word games.'? What's insulting about that? See, Gumby had simply asked who people thought was the 'most outstanding personality of all time.' Simple question? Without question. Mili's long reply started 'I'm sure you think quite the opposite but really, your answer here was stupid. It really shows you don't communicate clearly and, to your great misfortune, find some sort of paltry pride in banal word games' and ended with 'So, to answer your question - when you have all these different cultures which even have different perceptions of time, and their different histories of which you know next to nothing about, isn't it presumptuous to say that you-know-who is the greatest personality in history?' So, what do you think? Do you think Mili's answer was the least bit responsive to Gumby? I don't. I mean, it's not as if Gumby had asked anything about 'history' anyways. Mili was so quick to try to avoid the question (thus not having to answer 'Maharaji') he threw up a silly smokescreen. That is, he used the wrong color smoke. Katie, you have to get clear on something: there's a difference between trapping someon into saying something they don't mean (bad) and trapping them into saying something they don't mean to say (sometimes good, often interesting). Of course the premies don't want to admit anything difficult about Maharaji. They are in the nile, as they say. You appear to cringe at the prospect of calling them on that. Hey, I agree with John. No one twists their arm to post here. If it's that tough they split. How many have already done that? Like Maharaji says, the door is always open. Mili, on the other hand, hangs in, hangs on and hangs out. If the confrontation with his own inability to discuss Maharaji cleanly is too hard for him he can split. It's absolutely wrong to blame me or anyone else for not making things 'easier' for him.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:35:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I'll give it one more last try. You say you hurt and you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. Have you ever wondered if there is a connection between those two things? Why not try and 'connect the dots'? Maybe you hurt because you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. I don't see him as a fraud, and I don't hurt! If you are so intent in seeing him as a fraud, you'll try and find all kinds of 'proof' to support that. But, you seem to be having a hard time doing that. Try to relax, and see things more objectively. It's all in your head, man. Mili - With all due respect, this argument doesn't make sense! (Plus, where did Jim say that he 'hurt'? I think he might have been being sarcastic.) Come on, Katie, we are all familiar with Jim's and others' 'broken hearts', 'need to express anger', etc. Well, if they don't feel hurt, all the better! Then it's just a matter of having a nice example to go along with reading 'The Guru Papers', and Joel Kramer is going to make a fortune selling his books to ex-premies.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:36:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Big mistake (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili's answer to Gumby did NOT begin 'I'm sure you think quite the opposite but really, your answer here was stupid. It really shows you don't communicate clearly and, to your great misfortune, find some sort of paltry pride in banal word games' That was my answer to Mili. What Mili had said to Gumby was 'Which 'history' do you mean, Gumby? History is just petrified concensus opinion.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:38:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: That's not what we're talking about (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I'll give it one more last try. You say you hurt and you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. Have you ever wondered if there is a connection between those two things? Why not try and 'connect the dots'? Maybe you hurt because you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. I don't see him as a fraud, and I don't hurt! If you are so intent in seeing him as a fraud, you'll try and find all kinds of 'proof' to support that. But, you seem to be having a hard time doing that. Try to relax, and see things more objectively. It's all in your head, man. Nice try, Mili, but that's not what we're discussing right now.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:42:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Name calling, Robyn, my dear, has its place. As does ridicule, scolding and their opposites.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:43:19 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Swinging along, singing a song (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Lay it on us John.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 16:43:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That's not what we're talking about (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, I'll give it one more last try. You say you hurt and you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. Have you ever wondered if there is a connection between those two things? Why not try and 'connect the dots'? Maybe you hurt because you perceive Maharaji as a fraud. I don't see him as a fraud, and I don't hurt! If you are so intent in seeing him as a fraud, you'll try and find all kinds of 'proof' to support that. But, you seem to be having a hard time doing that. Try to relax, and see things more objectively. It's all in your head, man. Nice try, Mili, but that's not what we're discussing right now. OK. Bye, see you around.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:12:52 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Jim - I did NOT 'blame you for not making things easier for Mili'. The whole argument started because you called me on accepting an apology from Mili, and said that he called you a rabid dog. Then we started arguing about whether he was justified in comparing you to a rabid dog, right? You called Mili's answer 'stupid' in the post above, which basically was an answer to his reply to Gumby. In other words, like they say on the playground, you started it. So maybe that's why Mili compared you to a 'rabid dog'. They're both value judgements of a sort - I'm not sure one is worse than the other.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:45:04 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Mili: Of course that German Shepard you tell about seems to hate humans, so maybe dogs who hate people used to be ex-premies who just love to hate everything, becuase of course ex's are totally negative and hateful and angry at the world. I don't see 'ex-premies' as totally negative and hateful. If that was the case I wouldn't visit this site. I don't know if Jim 'hates' me. But, if so, maybe a few beers and a guitar jam could loosen things up. When I was in the grocery store today the checkout lady commented that I looked really happy. I believe that we all have happiness deep inside. Regards, CD
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:04:01 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Actually, Jim, I have talked to Mili off line about the thing he said to Gunther's mom, and we have gotten it straightened out. We've never discussed the stuff about Deena. I'm not sure if he understands the reality of the Mahatma problem completely. Of course I don't think you and Mili are two peas in a pod (what was that supposed to mean anyway?) I was just pointing out that you and Mili insult each other quite often. Do you not think this is true? Regards from Katie Also, Jim, I feel that the quality of the communications on this forum is such that it makes it very hard for people to publically apologize or show any kind of vulnerability or doubt for fear of ridicule. The forum also seems to get polarized between the premies and the ex-premies, and this creates a situation where no one will publically criticize anyone in their particular camp (or say anything nice to anyone who is not). I personally get very tired of this situation - not sure how everyone else feels. Hi Katie, The hardest thing for me in deciding what to post is choosing what topic to post or respond to. There are times I would criticize an ex, or be friendly to a premie, but I don't, because the main subject (maharaji) is complex and thick enough to keep my mind full-up. There are plenty of interesting subjects that are off-topic that I hestitate to post about for the same reason. Also, I try not to buddy up to anyone because I'm too turned off to the premies, and don't want to appear to be colluding with ex's. I think the ex's who post here have a strong enough case without teaming up, and that this case should stand on it's own merit. I'm really careful not to team up or side with ex's for the sake of 'winning' an argument. There are more ex's here than premies, and 'winning' an argument that way wouldn't prove anything. Insults are another story. It's a bit like driving in traffic... if I'm in a hurry, everyone's going too damn slow, and if I'm not, everyone's in too much of a hurry. When I disagree with someone, I don't mind seeing them insulted, but otherwise I don't like it. I suppose I just have to take my lumps. I don't like unfair insults, though. Mili's reference to rape was crude and below the belt. It would have been unfair for an ex to make a similar insult to a premie. As far as polarization, personally I think that's the idea. I want to be polarized away from maharaji, and any kind of insanity. I'm like the opposite of a people-pleaser; just as much of an abberation but in a different way.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:20:38 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Swinging along, singing a song (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
>>I personally have been wanting to come on this forum and pretend to be a premie and argue with Jim. No premie has yet used what I think should be the correct line of reasoning for defending their belief in the guru. If not for the dissolution of premie satsang, I could have made a decent argument as a fake premie. Maharaji really shot himself in the foot with that one. There's really little left... no real support, no crew to plug into, no testimonials. I mean, shit, I probably do almost as much as some premies. I still meditate. That's most of it now. Watching videos is absolute bullshit, in terms of experience; I always thought that. When they showed films of maharaji at nightly satsang I always thought that was a waste.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:35:29 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Robin wrote: >>Do any of you who read this think there is some good that may come out of it? Hi Robyn, I think some good does come out of really expressing oneself and being emotional. We're limited to text here, so there's no voice intonation or sound volume or any of the emphasis that comes with speaking. We can't make facial expressions; frown, roll our eyes, tsk tsk, or any of that. Adults do less name-calling in person than in cyberspace. Sometimes all were left with is calling someone an imbecile. I'm all for it, if it's an honest expression, and not with a specific intent to hurt someone. I don't think that being expressive (i.e., frustrated, exasperated, loud) is a male thing. Men are obviously more violent and use anger as a way of dealing with things more than women. Maybe that's part of the name-calling thing. Rick
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 18:56:03 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim: Re: 'Potentiality' is only used by Tony Robbins and various other new age hucksters eager to impress. Good point. I think 'potentiality' is a term in electronics. I might be wrong, but I think the appropriate term is 'potential.' -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:09:50 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I disagree (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie: I certainly disagree with some of the ex-es pretty seriously. For the most part, however, I don't think any of them are idiots... and there is also the possibility that I'm wrong, though frankly that is very difficult for me to imagine most of the time. -Scott
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:10:29 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Fudge! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Why don't you go do something more useful than write these inane posts here, like go get raped by a mahatma or something... Dear Mili - PLEASE don't make jokes about rape and so forth. It's not funny, and can be hurtful to people who have had an experience like that. Katie OK, Katie, sorry about that. As I was saying, M would sometimes speak about reincarnation, but it was always tongue in cheek. My theory is that consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter which gets its fuller expression in higher life forms. A rock is less conscious than a sponge. Stephen Jay Gould, on the other hand, is denying the belief that any life form is inherently 'superior' to any other. Who's to say that sharks, for instance, are not superior to human beings. They have evolved perfectly into a niche of the eco-system where they did not have the necessity to evolve further for millions of years. The chemical elements of which the Earth is made required billions of years of galactic and stellar evolution for their manufacture in the stellar interiors, for their distribution through interstellar space by explosions and stellar winds, and for their subsequent accumulation in the clouds of dusty hydrogen from which our sun was born. Then, following the formation of the Earth from that solar nebula, the development of such a complicated organism as man required another several billion years of genetic evolution, from the blue-green algae through the simple poly-celled organisms, the mud worms, the chordates, the vertebrates, the fish, the finbacks, the mammals, and, finally among the mammals, the primates, including man. (There is, of course, nothing final about it. We think of it as final only because we see it from our own point of view.) All these things arise by transformational causation from hydrogen but how can the hydrogen exist without perception? Is there an objective universe existing without perceiving subjects? First we must ask: What is perception? We think of ourselves as perceivers, but we are smart enough to understand that our sense of perception is associated with the consciousness of a highly evolved, multi-celled organism with an elaborate brain made up of billions of individual cells. And we also understand that we are not, in any way, aware of the consciousness or the perceptions of the individual cells of which our bodies or even our brains are composed. Is perception limited to such poly-celled organisms or do the individual cells have their own perceptions? We know that the individual cells do have their own perceptions, or at least that they respond to the same sort of stimuli as those to which we, as poly-celled organisms, respond. In fact, our own sense perceptions depend entirely on the fact that even single protoplasmic cells respond to gravity, kinetic energy, radiation, electricity and magnetism. The interesting thing is that just as our sense perceptions depend on the perceptions, or at least the responses, of single protoplasmic cells, just so the perceptions, or responses, of the individual cells depend on the responses of the individual atoms to those same five forms of energy. Even the primordial hydrogen atoms respond to gravity, kinetic energy, radiation, electricity and magnetism. Mili, excuse me butting in here, but you really do seem to mix and match some mutually incompatible concepts in a glorious fudge of a theory that is full of logical non-sequiturs. You also make frequent passing references to scientists (including one of my heroes Stephen Jay Gould), in what looks like an effort to lend credibility to your ideas. I am not sure whether you really understand some of the people you cite. According to your theory ‘consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter which gets its fuller expression in higher life forms.’ Why should we expect this to be so? Surely the main reason that a rock is less conscious than a sponge is that a rock is not conscious at all. It is also a pretty dubious assertion to make that a sponge is any more conscious than a rock. Sure, it has a very primitive nervous system, but one whose behaviour could be explained in terms of simple physical and chemical reactions. (re-read your Blind Watchmaker here, page 7 , where he discusses Mont Blanc’s credentials as a ‘complex thing’). You ask how can the hydrogen exist without perception? Is there an objective universe existing without perceiving subjects? What kind of a question is that? It sounds like something a Scientologist would come up with. There is certainly no subjective universe without perception (by very definition), but that, I think most people would agree, is the opposite of what you are asserting. We know that the individual cells do have their own perceptions, or at least that they respond to the same sort of stimuli as those to which we, as poly-celled organisms, respond. Again the ‘perception’ of a cell may be analagous to human perception, in that there are apparent similarities in the way something appears to respond to external stimuli, but it is a million miles from being homologous , ie., involving similar processes. Consciousness and perception are the products of living, waking, brains. The rest is just chemistry. The interesting thing is that just as our sense perceptions depend on the perceptions, or at least the responses, of single protoplasmic cells, just so the perceptions, or responses, of the individual cells depend on the responses of the individual atoms to those same five forms of energy. Even the primordial hydrogen atoms respond to gravity, kinetic energy, radiation, electricity and magnetism Ditto my last comment (+ physics!) Just for the record, Gould hates this sort of thing. In 'Life’s Grandeur' he rips to shreds a similar theory by M Scott Peck contained in that godawful, perennially best-selling paperback 'The Road Less Travelled.' (In this, Peck tries to explain evolution in terms of an underlying consciousness that powers life forward against the natural forces of entropy). Similar ‘purpose-driven’ accounts of life’s origins have been fudged together by people like Gopi Krishnan (‘Kundalini’), and Teilhart de Jardin (‘Omega Point’). In each case it is the psuedo-scientific work of the true believer, trying against all the evidence to the contrary, to smuggle their religious views into the equations. It looks like you might be trying to do the same.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:13:32 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Fudge! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
BTW, 'protoplasm' went out with the Ark.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 19:33:41 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, I'm interested in getting to the bottom of this. You seem to have justified some of Mili's behaviour here on the account of mistrust you suspect he feels. This mistrust, if it exists, would be attributable to mistreatment he's received in the past, by me, in particular. Of course I think that's complete and utter bullshit. Would you please tell me when I or anyone else here has been less than fair in their discussion with Mili? Then, would you take a moment and tell me when Mili's ever been fair (talking about Maharaji, I mean)?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:08:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim: Re: 'Potentiality' is only used by Tony Robbins and various other new age hucksters eager to impress. Good point. I think 'potentiality' is a term in electronics. I might be wrong, but I think the appropriate term is 'potential.' -Scott Come on guys, if Tony Robbins says it (and he's a native English speaker), I certainly don't blame Mili for using the word. Mili said: 'My theory is that consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter...' If I were grading his paper, I'd correct this to say 'My theory is that consciousness is intrinsically potential in matter... But I don't speak Mili's language (Croatian?) well enough to grade papers in it yet!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:14:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, You telling me that you can't spot new age bubblespeak when you see it?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:23:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Grrrrr! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim - I never mentioned the words 'mistreatment', 'fair', or 'unfair'. I don't even know how to interpret those statements:'less than 'fair' in their discussion with Mili' and 'when Mili's ever been fair in discussing Maharaji.' What is 'fair', anyway? That's a judgement call, which probably should be made by you or Mili, as the injured parties, not me. I'm not sure if Mili has ever said he'd been treated UNFAIRLY on the forum, although he has said a number of other things. What I said is that you have criticized Mili (especially by calling him 'stupid'), on the forum a number of times, thus he probably doesn't trust you enough to engage in discussion with you and resorts to calling you names instead. I believe this to be a fact. Mili has started the name calling on a number of occasions (like the time he called you a 'stupid Nazi lawyer' without provocation), so if you didn't wish to engage in discussion with him, I'd stick up for you too. I'm not saying that your criticism of Mili was unprovoked, I'm just saying that if I were Mili, I'd be wary of engaging in discussion with you too. I probably didn't answer all your points, so let me know. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:31:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, You telling me that you can't spot new age bubblespeak when you see it? Probably not.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:33:47 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Rick Men are obviously more violent and use anger as a way of dealing with things more than women. Maybe that's part of the name-calling thing I do think it is more male or maybe just not me. I don't think I have ever resorted to name calling even when, just one example, I was very angry at Mili for saying that rape thing. Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:34:55 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: I disagree (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie: I certainly disagree with some of the ex-es pretty seriously. For the most part, however, I don't think any of them are idiots... and there is also the possibility that I'm wrong, though frankly that is very difficult for me to imagine most of the time. -Scott Dear Scott - I didn't quite understand what you meant here - care to elaborate? Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:42:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: You're right. You didn't (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim - I never mentioned the words 'mistreatment', 'fair', or 'unfair'. I don't even know how to interpret those statements:'less than 'fair' in their discussion with Mili' and 'when Mili's ever been fair in discussing Maharaji.' What is 'fair', anyway? That's a judgement call, which probably should be made by you or Mili, as the injured parties, not me. I'm not sure if Mili has ever said he'd been treated UNFAIRLY on the forum, although he has said a number of other things. What I said is that you have criticized Mili (especially by calling him 'stupid'), on the forum a number of times, thus he probably doesn't trust you enough to engage in discussion with you and resorts to calling you names instead. I believe this to be a fact. Mili has started the name calling on a number of occasions (like the time he called you a 'stupid Nazi lawyer' without provocation), so if you didn't wish to engage in discussion with him, I'd stick up for you too. I'm not saying that your criticism of Mili was unprovoked, I'm just saying that if I were Mili, I'd be wary of engaging in discussion with you too. I probably didn't answer all your points, so let me know. Katie Katie, First, how do you get away with using regular quotation marks? I thought we'd die or something if we did. Second, you ask what 'fair' is in a discussion? Katie, really? Are you really saying you don't know? Third, you say that whatever it is it's a 'judgment call best left to the participants. Again, do you really believe that? Why? I sure don't. What you're saying, Katie, seems extremely wrong, if'n you don't mind my saying. You're saying Mili doesn't trust me... for whatever reason. Katie, that's just bunk. Mili won't talk straight with anyone here when it gets right down to it. It's the questions he's avoiding, not the questioner. If you don't believe that, why not see for yourself. Go ahead, YOU ask Mili to reconcile the fact that he said Maharaji's NOT the messiah with the quote I threw at him where Maharaji said he most certainly was. But don't just ask him once and leave it at that. Follow up and don't get sidetracked. Follow up, follow up. See where it goes. I predict that, like every other premie we've ever heard from, Mili will bail. He has to. How in the world could he possibly put it all together? And when Mili bails do you think he'll say 'Shucks, Katie, I've got to admit, you've got me there. I'm confused and don't know quite what to say.'? Yeah, right. Mili, being the kind of person he is, will blame YOU for his dilemna. It will be YOUR rabid obsessiveness, YOUR tricky deciving questions, YOUR inability to understand, that he'll blame. Maybe, if he's lucky, he'll have someone waiting to make excuses for him.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:43:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Rick - you're probably going to dislike this because I know you're allergic to certain concepts, but I think it's really important for people to use 'I' statements when doing things like calling each other imbeciles, for example. Instead of 'You're an imbecile', I much prefer 'I think that what you said was imbecilic (or whatever. Guess that might not be a word.) I used to do a lot of name calling without even realizing it. I used to hurt my husband's feelings a lot by saying 'You're ____.' and so forth. (I could dish it out but I sure couldn't take it.) He pointed this out to me, and it took me a long time to learn not to do that. But it's helped me a lot to learn to use 'I' statements instead. Of course, it's a lot easier for me to do it on the forum than in real life!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:51:31 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Rick Men are obviously more violent and use anger as a way of dealing with things more than women. Maybe that's part of the name-calling thing I do think it is more male or maybe just not me. I don't think I have ever resorted to name calling even when, just one example, I was very angry at Mili for saying that rape thing. Robyn Robyn, Why wouldn't it have been a good way to express yourself, to name-call when Mili said the rape thing? You can't show anger in your facial expression or your tone, on the Internet. People often think it is preferable to not get angry, but I think it is healthy. If your response to something is to be angry and you don't let it out and express it, then the communication is limited to mental (something men are quite notorious for). If you just say 'I am angry' or 'That made me angry', it's like a textbook and not passionate. If I said something dumb I'd prefer a gentle touch, but if I kept saying incredibly dumb things over and over, like Mili, and kept being absolutely frustrating, what would be the harm in saying 'You dimwit'. Why is it a higher communication to just be mental and not emotional? If I had a low IQ, it would be cruel. But if I was just being difficult and trying to wind someone up, what would be the harm? Mili doesn't seem terribly harmed and neither did Aesop, or A Premie. They all seemed totally oblivious, which may account for the some of the barbs.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:56:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You're right. You didn't (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim, you wrote: 'First, how do you get away with using regular quotation marks? I thought we'd die or something if we did.' I think this is only in forum III, and I think that Brian our divine web master has fixed it even there. Jim then wrote 'Second, you ask what 'fair' is in a discussion? Katie, really? Are you really saying you don't know?' Jim, I have come to the conclusion that I don't really know what you consider to be fair. Why don't you spell it out? Then Jim wrote 'Third, you say that whatever it is it's a 'judgment call best left to the participants. Again, do you really believe that? Why? I sure don't.' I meant that you thinking that Mili was unfair, or Mili saying that you have damaged his trust in you, was better left to you and Mili, respectively. Look, I certainly don't intend to get in between you guys! Then Jim wrote 'What you're saying, Katie, seems extremely wrong, if'n you don't mind my saying. You're saying Mili doesn't trust me... for whatever reason. Katie, that's just bunk. Mili won't talk straight with anyone here when it gets right down to it. It's the questions he's avoiding, not the questioner. If you don't believe that, why not see for yourself. Go ahead, YOU ask Mili to reconcile the fact that he said Maharaji's NOT the messiah with the quote I threw at him where Maharaji said he most certainly was.' Goddamit, Jim (oops, swore before Passover!), there's a million ways premies can get out of that. Mostly because Maharaji talks about himself in the third person. Then Jim said 'But don't just ask him once and leave it at that. Follow up and don't get sidetracked. Follow up, follow up. See where it goes. I predict that, like every other premie we've ever heard from, Mili will bail. He has to. How in the world could he possibly put it all together?' From what I've read of Mili's answers, he doesn't know if Maharaji is the Messiah or not (please correct me if I'm wrong, Mili.) I think he, and almost all the other premies on here are afraid to say what they think for fear Maharaji might not like it. Jim, I was a premie and so were you - can't you have sympathy for that? Jim continued: 'And when Mili bails do you think he'll say 'Shucks, Katie, I've got to admit, you've got me there. I'm confused and don't know quite what to say.'? Yeah, right. Mili, being the kind of person he is, will blame YOU for his dilemna. It will be YOUR rabid obsessiveness, YOUR tricky deciving questions, YOUR inability to understand, that he'll blame.' You may be right, Jim. The problem is that I'll never ask Mili those questions because I don't care if Mili believes that M is the messiah or not. I don't care if he's a premie or not. You know how I feel about this, cause I've said it a million times. Jim said 'Maybe, if he's lucky, he'll have someone waiting to make excuses for him.' Hey, personal foul! Anyway, thanks for the TITLE of your post, Jim! Love you (really), Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:09:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Rick - I have appreciated the thoughtful nature of your posts, and wish mine could be more like that. You often seem to have the correct insight into what is going on on the forum, whereas I tend to be more reactive. You said that the subject of Maharaji is complex enough to keep you interested. I find the opposite to be true. I get really bored with Maharaji and am more interested in the individual people who post on the forum. I probably go off topic too much because I'm sick of talking about Maharaji. Perhaps I shouldn't be posting on here - who knows. I left Maharaji almost exactly 21 years ago, and I have really never looked back. I can't summon up much feeling, pro or con, towards Maharaji's role in my own life. The reason I started posting on the forum is because a friend of mine - a former ashram premie - committed suicide, and I felt really bad about it. I thought maybe I could be of help to people in similar situations. And once I started posting, I began to really like most of the people on the forum, and enjoy talking with them both on the forum and via e-mail. I can understand your feeling about wanting to be polarized away from Maharaji. Somehow I never thought of it working like that, and I think that's a good thing. To me, Maharaji is so far in the past that I don't feel that - I feel like I just CAN'T go backwards, ever. I agree that Mili's reference to rape was crude. He did apologize, though, and I don't think that he would have done so if someone had called him a stupid asshole or something like that. That's another thing I mean by polarization - a violent statement tends to provoke an equally violent reaction, which, IMHO, solves nothing. Anyway, glad you are on the forum. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:09:59 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Rick - you're probably going to dislike this because I know you're allergic to certain concepts, but I think it's really important for people to use 'I' statements when doing things like calling each other imbeciles, for example. Instead of 'You're an imbecile', I much prefer 'I think that what you said was imbecilic (or whatever. Guess that might not be a word.) I used to do a lot of name calling without even realizing it. I used to hurt my husband's feelings a lot by saying 'You're ____.' and so forth. (I could dish it out but I sure couldn't take it.) He pointed this out to me, and it took me a long time to learn not to do that. But it's helped me a lot to learn to use 'I' statements instead. Of course, it's a lot easier for me to do it on the forum than in real life! Katie, I get what you mean, and I know the idea of addressing someone's behavior versus their integrity. On the other hand, I have a hard time talking like a textbook, which is what controlled communication is like for me. I know words can hurt, and I've often felt hurt when my girlfriend calls me names. It's taken me a while but I've finally understood she doesn't mean I'm an imbecile, she means she thinks I said something imbecilic. But what about when you're not communicating with someone you really know and love, but with someone whose integrity you do question. What about when you do think someone's an imbecile? Should one just be polite and pretend they think differently? Even if they know the person won't be hurt? If I were Mili, I'd be long gone from this site; my skin just isn't that thick. I believe you once said that Mili will take any kind of attention he can get (when he tried to shut down the newsgroup). So why is it important to use I statements, to protect someone who doesn't need it, and in fact has already been 'over-enabled'? You're really getting the third-degree today. Rick
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:17:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Rick, you said 'So why is it important to use I statements, to protect someone who doesn't need it, and in fact has already been 'over-enabled'?' It's probably not that important, in Mili's case, if you don't want to have any kind of communication with him. He seems to put up with insults quite cheerfully. I feel like I have been able to communicate (a little bit) anyway, with Mili, by telling him how I felt about certain things - like his statement about rape. To me this is progress, for both Mili and myself. P.S. I'm assuming that you think Mili has been 'over-enabled' because he tried to shut down alt.cult.maharaji with no repercussions, and won't apologize for it?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:37:06 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Rick, you said 'So why is it important to use I statements, to protect someone who doesn't need it, and in fact has already been 'over-enabled'?' It's probably not that important, in Mili's case, if you don't want to have any kind of communication with him. He seems to put up with insults quite cheerfully. I feel like I have been able to communicate (a little bit) anyway, with Mili, by telling him how I felt about certain things - like his statement about rape. To me this is progress, for both Mili and myself. P.S. I'm assuming that you think Mili has been 'over-enabled' because he tried to shut down alt.cult.maharaji with no repercussions, and won't apologize for it? Katie, Actually, the reason I think Mili's been over-enabled is because of his general behavior in discussions. At first I thought it was a language barrier, but now I think Mama Mili and Papa Mili never put their foot down and said, 'ENOUGH, BOY! Make some sense!'. Rick
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:40:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Like swallows in a chimney or alligators in the sewer -- yes, I know Mili; I'm giving you this one -- Mili and Chris have nested here. Anyways, I'm not saying they'd have to quit fooling around. Jim, I know, a couple Wise Owls. Regards, CD How about Mutant Ninja Turtles, rising from the sewer of the ex-premie forum? I mean, M did say that if you moved out of the ashram, you might as well move into a cesspool, so I guess this is it. You'd be a great Donatello, Chris, and Mili could be Michaelangelo (or Raphael, but probably not Leonardo.) Take care, Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 21:43:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Yes, he does seem to discuss from the heart and not the head at times!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:04:04 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Like swallows in a chimney or alligators in the sewer -- yes, I know Mili; I'm giving you this one -- Mili and Chris have nested here. Anyways, I'm not saying they'd have to quit fooling around. Jim, I know, a couple Wise Owls. Regards, CD A few interesting books - for the mind of course. Hi CD, I was looking at your list of books. I noticed that you didn't have Soul Rush on the list. I would think that would be a fine book for you to read. GAGBWY -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:26:41 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Katie, HaHa!! Michaelangelo and Leonardo didn't like women as much as I've read that Mili does...but Rapheal, now THERE was a ladies' man!! Chris would make a nice Donatello. VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:34:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie totally off topic
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Katie, HaHa!! Michaelangelo and Leonardo didn't like women as much as I've read that Mili does...but Rapheal, now THERE was a ladies' man!! Chris would make a nice Donatello. VP Hey VP - I am thinking about the turtles (my nephew was really into them several years ago), but you're right about the original Michelangelo and Leonardo. Raphael was always my nephews favorite turtle - don't know why. Anyway, Mili definitely seems to be a ladies man, so Raphael it is. Donatello the turtle always seemed like a California kind of guy - I don't know all that much about the real one! (too long since I took Art History).
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 22:57:36 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie totally off topic
Subject: Renaissance Turtles (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, Leonardo Da Vinci was actually arrested and imprisoned for homosexuality. He was blonde and stunningly handsome in his youth. There are well documented reports of Michaelangelo Bunoratti having trists with some of his young male assistants. Raphael Sanzino apparently idolized Michaelangelo's work and career. (He was younger) Raphael was scandalized on more than one occasion with a wealthy female patron. (Wish I had access to certain books right now and I could be more specific.) Donatello was the oldest of the four, not really even a contemporary. He did sculpture only, whereas M and L did both sculpture and painting. M and L were fierce rivals. They competed for commissions and spoke (and wrote) very uncomplimentary things about one another. I always thought it was interesting that they were so chummy on the cartoon. Bet they are rolling in their graves...(but then again, you probably know all about this already)VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:04:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Renaissance Turtles (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, Leonardo Da Vinci was actually arrested and imprisoned for homosexuality. He was blonde and stunningly handsome in his youth. There are well documented reports of Michaelangelo Bunoratti having trists with some of his young male assistants. Raphael Sanzino apparently idolized Michaelangelo's work and career. (He was younger) Raphael was scandalized on more than one occasion with a wealthy female patron. (Wish I had access to certain books right now and I could be more specific.) Donatello was the oldest of the four, not really even a contemporary. He did sculpture only, whereas M and L did both sculpture and painting. M and L were fierce rivals. They competed for commissions and spoke (and wrote) very uncomplimentary things about one another. I always thought it was interesting that they were so chummy on the cartoon. Bet they are rolling in their graves...(but then again, you probably know all about this already)VP Thanks VP - I knew a little, but not all that you said about the artists (I took art history approximately 20 years ago...). Of course, I had to learn ALL about the ninja turtles (Leonardo was the oldest turtle, Donatello liked pizza, etc.) I played the turtle video game a number of times with my nephew. Now my other nephew (age 4) is very into them again so I guess they've made a comeback - beware! Anyway, Mili should definitely be Raphael (if he's a ninja turtle, that is).
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:11:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Fudge! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Thank you for the book recommendation, Nigel. I'm not sure what Mili was trying to say (Mili ended with entropy), but I really don't like 'The Road Less Traveled' (I can never figure out WHY it is a perennial best-seller - can you? My dad, who was actually a scientist, used to buy it by the dozen and give it to all and sundry for Christmas). I would be happy to read Stephen Jay Gould's criticism of it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:12:26 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Entrophy, Is this what Jim was referring to when he said that the Universe isn't a pack rat? Off topic: I went to the bookstore and took a look at 'Be Here Now'- What a riot. I had to get someone to help me find it and I could tell she was trying hard not to laugh at me. The darn thing was $14.00 -Sheesh-and after reading something like 'Before one must die, one must learn to live. To truely live, one must die.' I decided that the money was better spent elsewhere. (It was a bargain at $3.00, I'm sure:) The drawings were far-out, though. I think some psychedelics would enhance the reading of this book, but I kind of missed that boat the first time it sailed...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:21:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Entrophy, Is this what Jim was referring to when he said that the Universe isn't a pack rat? Off topic: I went to the bookstore and took a look at 'Be Here Now'- What a riot. I had to get someone to help me find it and I could tell she was trying hard not to laugh at me. The darn thing was $14.00 -Sheesh-and after reading something like 'Before one must die, one must learn to live. To truely live, one must die.' I decided that the money was better spent elsewhere. (It was a bargain at $3.00, I'm sure:) The drawings were far-out, though. I think some psychedelics would enhance the reading of this book, but I kind of missed that boat the first time it sailed... Dear VP - I can't believe you had enough nerve to ask for that book in a store! The book was (as I recall) in two or three parts. The most interesting part was sort of an autobiography of Richard Alpert a.k.a. Baba Ram Dass. I think it was in the middle. The beginning was drawings and large print text, and the end was quotes. As I think I told you, there were LOTS of copies of Be Here Now in the DC 'Divine Sales' store. Anyway, VP, if I see it in the Salvation Army or at a garage sale, I'll get it for you. Ditto for any other hippie classics from that era. 'Living on the Earth' is the only one I can think of right now! 'Even Cowgirls get the Blues' by Tom Robbins was very popular when I was in college in the late 1970's, and my best ex-premie friend swore that reading it deprogrammed her! P.S. Have you read 'Franny and Zooey', by JD Salinger? This was more of a beatnik book, I think (although I don't know).
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:24:10 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi VP, This book Be Here Now, where did you see it? -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:28:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi VP, This book Be Here Now, where did you see it? -gumby Dear gumby - I have not checked, but I am 99% sure that you'd be able to get it from Amazon.com (the on-line bookstore). If you want it, that is! Regards, Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:34:19 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: To John K.-you arsehole, you (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Going to jump in here and interrupt this fascinating topic...I have been wanting to tell you all evening that I don't think that you are an 'arsehole', John... But now I think you are crazy... for wanting to argue with Jim, of course. If you decide to do this, please let us know who you are afterwards, OK? VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:46:04 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi Katie, I would actually like to track down a copy of Soul Rush, do you have it, or have you read it? GAGBWY -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:48:40 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie and gumby
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, Yes, that is the one that I picked up, with the three sections. Thanks for the offer, I hope that you find it. I have never read anything else that you mentioned. (Only The Catcher In the Rye-of course- by JD) I also saw a hilarious book in the children's section on meditation for children. It was so funny. I could tell it had been written in the 60's or 70's. It had a kid in there saying something like, ' My parents meditate, are they freaks?' Also it was trying to explain what meditation is, but it never did. It was black and white and tiny (very appealing to children, I'm sure) gumby, I got found it at a local bookstore-large chain. Amazon would have it, also Barnes and Noble.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:52:04 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Yes, he does seem to discuss from the heart and not the head at times! Katie, You are the milk of human kindness. Who said anything about heart. REALLY! HMFFF! Rick
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:52:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
No, it is out of print and I haven't read it (but would love to). I did see that they had a copy at the university library where I used to work in Virginia, but at the time I wasn't interested in reading it. So if you have access to any kind of university library, that may be the best bet. (Also, other libraries might be able to get it on interlibrary loan). The author is Sophia Collier. Good luck! I'll look for it here, too. Katie P.S. Thanks for the help with the links. I am really just too lazy to memorize that HTML, but I should!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:55:09 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi VP, thanks... -gumby
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:55:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
I never liked 'Catcher in the Rye' (I found it almost excrutiating to read it), but 'Franny and Zooey' is good, and sort of relevant to ex-premies. I'll see if I can find a copy. The meditation book sounds great - I can't believe it was in a Barnes and Noble!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 23:57:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie very off topic
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Gumby, you are not from Wisconsin, are you? Just wondering. Katie
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:00:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Yes, he does seem to discuss from the heart and not the head at times! Katie, You are the milk of human kindness. Who said anything about heart. REALLY! HMFFF! Rick Rick, honey - what other organ were you considering? Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:10:34 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
I never liked 'Catcher in the Rye' (I found it almost excrutiating to read it), but 'Franny and Zooey' is good, and sort of relevant to ex-premies. I'll see if I can find a copy. The meditation book sounds great - I can't believe it was in a Barnes and Noble! Katie, I agree about the 'Catcher In The Rye'-but it was required for school. A preppy little book and very depressing. Actually, it was another semi-large chain much like Barnes and Noble. I think it's regional, so I'm not sure I want to mention it here. I know you can order anything from Barnes and Noble, though. VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:14:19 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: Katie very off topic
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi Katie, No, Why do you ask? -gumby
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:36:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
It's sort of dumb, but the only other person I know named Gumby is from there. I'm sure there's a bunch of people all over nicknamed Gumby, but just thought I'd check!
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:52:08 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Yes, he does seem to discuss from the heart and not the head at times! Katie, You are the milk of human kindness. Who said anything about heart. REALLY! HMFFF! Rick Rick, honey - what other organ were you considering? Regards from Katie Katie, That's cute. Rick
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 00:53:30 (EST)
Poster: gumby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi Katie, Not dumb at all. It is a small world. I hope that you may hook up with your gumby friend sometime in your life. :) Thanks for the enquiry. GAGBWY -gumby
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:10:24 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: gumby
Subject: Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?
Message:
Hi CD, I was looking at your list of books. I noticed that you didn't have Soul Rush on the list. I would think that would be a fine book for you to read. -gumby Now why in the world would that be a fine book for me? I enjoyed the Millenium event and also the swim in the Ganges in 1972 at Prem Nagar. Yes, I did swim across to the other shore. I was born in California after all! CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:25:15 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
The darn thing was $14.00 -Sheesh-and after reading something like 'Before one must die, one must learn to live. To truely live, one must die.' I decided that the money was better spent elsewhere. VP, Are you really that poor? The line 'Know Thyself' from Socrates is also pretty wierd. Or 'The unnameable is the source of the universe' from the Tao Te Ching. But, the earth does float in the middle of infinity. And thats a fact! Check out the book by Bhagavan Das on my list. It is quite a story. He is the guy who got Ram Das Ram Dased. Probably not your style though. But who knows - g? Regards, CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:32:29 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi VP, This book Be Here Now, where did you see it? -gumby Dear gumby - I have not checked, but I am 99% sure that you'd be able to get it from Amazon.com (the on-line bookstore). If you want it, that is! Regards, Katie Be Here Now or else. CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:44:16 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
I'm sure there's a bunch of people all over nicknamed Gumby! You've got to be kidding!
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:53:47 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim: Re: 'Potentiality' is only used by Tony Robbins and various other new age hucksters eager to impress. Good point. I think 'potentiality' is a term in electronics. -Scott I don't think so - g. And I worked as a Teaching Assistant for an electronic circuits class with a professor who worked on the A-Bomb. The example of the use of 'potentiality' from Websters dictionary is: 'Atomic destruction is a grim potentiality'. CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:54:04 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Entropy and Off Topic: Be Here Now (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
No, not poor. Just choosy about how I spend what I have. The book was worth a certain price, but not another. There are other ones I'd rather have. I'd rather go on a trip, or get a new CD,etc...VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 01:57:50 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Links (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
CD, How DO you do that? It seems like magic to me! VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 02:13:36 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mili's funny jargon (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Jim: Re: 'Potentiality' is only used by Tony Robbins and various other new age hucksters eager to impress. Good point. I think 'potentiality' is a term in electronics. I might be wrong, but I think the appropriate term is 'potential.' -Scott Come on guys, if Tony Robbins says it (and he's a native English speaker), I certainly don't blame Mili for using the word. Mili said: 'My theory is that consciousness is an intrinsic potentiality in matter...' If I were grading his paper, I'd correct this to say 'My theory is that consciousness is intrinsically potential in matter... But I don't speak Mili's language (Croatian?) well enough to grade papers in it yet! Mili's use of the work was quite excellent and proper! Its a good thing you weren't in one of my classes - g. It seems that a clear head is needed to sort these issues out. See my other posting for the details. Regards, CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 02:24:22 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Links (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
CD, How DO you do that? It seems like magic to me! VP 1. Its pretty simple 2. I use my brilliant mind to great advantage 3. It's Here Now 4. Brian will offer a class soon 5. Premies can have fun CD
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 07:53:56 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Links (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
CD, 1) I'm sure it is, I haven't learned how yet,though I think the instructions are here somewhere... 2) You make me laugh sometimes (this is not sarcastic) 3) What is this book about? 4) Me thinks he is too busy, though he helps me a lot 5) I never doubted this:) VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:38:58 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: Renaissance Turtles (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
VP, Well I didn't know all that. I tell you I learn so much here, not only is being here bringing me understanding and introspection about my time with M but also into myself in reference to my continuing path and other just plain interesting facts and a lot of laughs as well. It is just a great place to be isn't it everyone? Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:48:49 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Rick, I'll have to go back and read my post to Mili again but at the time it did release my anger. I remember saying something about how totally dissapointed I was in him and even if that didn't strike him as strong, since he isn't seeking my approval in the first place, it was equivalent to an insult in my heart I guess. I am trying, through asking and now reading these responses, to see another point of view and even though I don't plan on adopting it as my own it has helped me and I thank you all for that. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:54:23 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Katie, What you said is very true because I have called my kids names in heated arguments and it has really hurt them. It suprized me at the time because the words hadn't held all that much meaning to me the name caller but I could see how hurt they really were and because I don't want to hurt them I try hard never to call them names except when we are joking and can all have a laugh about it. I guess that is at the crooks of this whole thing for me really but you said it for me. Thanks. If you've gotten my e-mail from today you'll know you are drawing things out of me big time today missy. But it is good and needs to be done. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 10:58:11 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Rick, I just want to state that even though what Katie said hit home for me, about name calling really hurting the other person, I still stand by my previous post in that I see it here as another point of view and consider it a vaild one even if I don't subscribe to it. Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 11:21:13 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: And furthermore (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Dear Rick, I'll have to go back and read my post to Mili again but at the time it did release my anger. I remember saying something about how totally dissapointed I was in him and even if that didn't strike him as strong, since he isn't seeking my approval in the first place, it was equivalent to an insult in my heart I guess. I am trying, through asking and now reading these responses, to see another point of view and even though I don't plan on adopting it as my own it has helped me and I thank you all for that. Robyn Robyn, Well, I'm glad you insulted him, nonetheless. Unfortunately, he loves it. Oh well. Rick
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 15:48:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Fudge! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Thank you for the book recommendation, Nigel. I'm not sure what Mili was trying to say (Mili ended with entropy), but I really don't like 'The Road Less Traveled' (I can never figure out WHY it is a perennial best-seller - can you? My dad, who was actually a scientist, used to buy it by the dozen and give it to all and sundry for Christmas). I would be happy to read Stephen Jay Gould's criticism of it. I couldn't STAND 'The Road Less Traveled.' Trying to read it made me crazy! I talked to Joy about it once and she agreed and said the only good use for the book was a starter for a fireplace log. But it's a best seller for the same reasons that Jonathon Livingston Seagull, The Bridges of Madison County, and other such drivel are best sellers. It's the same reason people listen to Yanni and Kenny G.
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 16:25:38 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
JW, M Scott Peck did have one good thing to say in that book. (IMHO) I agreed with him when he wrote that having a loving relationship entails some work. It is not all about a feeling. You may have this feeling in the beginning of the relationship, but it even as it wanes, you can still continue to love the person and care for them in a different way (more mature?) Relationships change, but that doesn't always have to be a bad thing. I did like this little pearl of wisdom in the book, but doubt that it is original to him. I have to agree that the people whose stories he quoted in there were a bunch of whiners. He could have said what he needed to say without quoting all of those boring stories! Did anyone hear the story that he denounced that book and really went off of the deep end? (I heard that he is a right wing religious zealot now. Can anyone give any info on this?) Did anyone ever read that other book he wrote 'People of the Lie'? Was that the name of it? I never read it. VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 17:38:10 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
JW, M Scott Peck did have one good thing to say in that book. (IMHO) I agreed with him when he wrote that having a loving relationship entails some work. It is not all about a feeling. You may have this feeling in the beginning of the relationship, but it even as it wanes, you can still continue to love the person and care for them in a different way (more mature?) Relationships change, but that doesn't always have to be a bad thing. I did like this little pearl of wisdom in the book, but doubt that it is original to him. I have to agree that the people whose stories he quoted in there were a bunch of whiners. He could have said what he needed to say without quoting all of those boring stories! Did anyone hear the story that he denounced that book and really went off of the deep end? (I heard that he is a right wing religious zealot now. Can anyone give any info on this?) Did anyone ever read that other book he wrote 'People of the Lie'? Was that the name of it? I never read it. VP I read 'People of the Lie'. I thought it was a great book; actually groundbreaking. It dealt with the subject of evil and defined it quite well. It gave examples of evil that Peck had observed as a therapist, that were eyeopening. Peck did spend some time talking about his Christianity. The first chapter had heavy religious overtones, and some drew some strange conclusions. Also there was a chapter that dealt with the My Lai massacre and military careers. It was too forgiving for my taste. I can imagine Peck becoming very right wing.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:22:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
As a premie I thought I was a puddle of love from Maharaji's ocean, stuck behind a dusty barrier of ego and ignorance. Now I think I'm my body.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:24:30 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, that was supposed to be a reply to Rick ! (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
As a premie I thought I was a puddle of love from Maharaji's ocean, stuck behind a dusty barrier of ego and ignorance. Now I think I'm my body. really
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1998 at 22:38:25 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
As a premie I thought I was a puddle of love from Maharaji's ocean, stuck behind a dusty barrier of ego and ignorance. Now I think I'm my body. Got a smile out of me.
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Date: Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:53:19 (EST)
Poster: sat guroovy
Email: *.*
To: Mili
Subject: purrrrrrrrrr (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Hi Mili, how about this? Let's just say rawat is not right that he is god incarnate for the sake of this next discussion, say you are the power, you like somebody, they like their life, and they like you, they die, and so you put them somewhere else that you think will be nice for them because you love them. plausable? I think so. Much nicer view and probably more accurate than all the talk about mergeing and wheel of karma and all the eastern type approach. You, to me, are actually a love oriented guy. I think the real god is too. Mr. Amazing and all that. Just as kind as you are to your mom and friends, that power is probabaly to us. That's what makes me think that we are here to enjoy it and learn right from wrong, and not label that as just duality. I am not saying you said that. Do you drink beer over there? Friday night is beer and bar and music night for CD.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1998 at 04:50:48 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Rick
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
Of course, a premie is both a body and a mind. How could a premie donate time and money to Maharaji without being a body and if they were not their mind, they would soon forget that Maharaji ever existed! Our dear premie friend in the friend above has to be in their mind, otherwise they wouldn't be able to type on their computer. Simple logic, as they say.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1998 at 10:45:56 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: The Road Less Traveled (Re: Chris and Mili: are they ready yet?)
Message:
'...So the question is... who did you think you were as a premie? And who do you think you are now?' Rick I dealth with this one myself in the first year with M. and Knowledge. Of course 'who / what we are' is something one must realize along the path (for whoever interested to spiritual growth). It's not our personality self that was the subject although we all have our personalities, no two person the same. We all have careers, and we all have a mind which is extremely useful and needed. The flaw with this 'who we are' thing is in the IDENTIFICATION at the subconcious level. With the amount of years we lived, and with no one to remaind us of that truth, we begin to think (subconciously) that, what we do (career) and our personality is what we are, and we forget about our true self which is something else. Dont't get me wrong. We have to live with all of our 'selves' and denie no one because all these parts makes the totallity of us. We need our personalities to express ourselves in this world. Besides that, there is this identification thing, that needs to be solved. My life was not as depressing when I corrected this problem. I stoped being the victim, cause I was not the problem. I started to see life in a different light. To come back to your question 'who did you think you were as a premie? and now?' As a 'premie', and 'now' there is no difference in what I think I am as far as 'identification' is concerned. (I had this realization within 9 months of being with the cult.) My personality is the same, before and after. Only my perception changed.
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:12:22 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: and another letter from 1976....
Message:
Rural England, Summer 1976 Written on return to England from USA. I have changed some names and added some parenthesis containing info as to what subsequently became of the people, if I know - Anon (Picture of Maharaji on head of letter adorned with comments from self) God in a human body.. The Foreman.. The Boss.. Our Daddy.. Our Father which art in Heaven... Dear George, I have just been meditating and feel so much love that I decided I should write to you post-haste! There has been an indescribable uplift in the hearts of premies since the festival at Leicester. I got back from LA feeeling Guru Maharaj Ji everywhere pouring that bliss into me in meditation on the aeroplane. It was funny 'cos I never expected to leave the USA but He wants me to be here in England to help and share in the work of spreading Knowledge with all these incredible brothers and sisters here. Everywhere is the same, I am convinced of it, Malibu or Manchester! Guru Maharaj ji is not limited it is that are limited - completely hopelessly limited- without the Grace of this Knowledge. Before the festival I really tried to sincerely meditate with extra effort and on seeing and hearing Maharaji Ji my experience of Darshan was so perfectly fulfilling and I received a lot of faith which can always get more and more and more on the firmest foundation ever- of Knowledge. Peoples hearts are really singing here, yes. Speaking for all of us I can honestly say that the explosion of pure love here is really manifesting. I've been really blisssed out by the ever increasing intense enthusiasm of devotees here. I know you will be blissed out to hear of the news of these people as it is such an exciting thing to see those whom you have shared this life experiencing the same the very same consciousness as you. Jim (1998-no longer practising-works as a surveyor, 2 kids) is meditating and getting back into Knowledge with help and loving attention from Tom and I. I worked with Jim and gave him lots of Satsang on a building site!(1998-Tom is into Firewalking and Astrology and is known as 'Cosmic Tom', considered a bit of a 'bongo' by some 'respectable' premies, but still vociferously pro-Maharaji and furthermore claims to have met other disembodied spirits too). Harry (1998-now a professional musician, very cynical about MJ)has completed about 3 Knowledge Courses and is on the brink of receiving Knowledge as are many(really) other shining Aspirants who are a huge inspiration. Rowan,(1998-into drugs and Maharaji) Simon,(1990's- Heroin addict)Stephan,(uncertain about MJ) Mart,(1998-totally cynical about MJ)Jane (1998 doesn't practise, 2 kids, physiotherapist), Pete, (1998-successful producer, doesn't practise Knowledge never goes to see MJ, married 3 kids, quite cynical about Maharaji) a girl called Marion and others. Even Mark (1998-married, writing a book, musician, totally disinterested in Maharaji, says MJ is just a good businessman) says he will receive Knowledge and comes to Satsang as does Shawn who is very into Knowledge a bit like you were a couple of years ago! (1998-Shawn never received Knowledge, blinded and brain damaged by Meningitis, severely depressed, told me recently he would like to learn how to meditate but is almost totally housebound) God knows how far we can come in two seconds with Grace. Jane is engaged to Donald! Tarantara! (1996-Donald was killed in motorcycle accident) and Julian is around.(1998-permanently stoned on dope and struggling along with kids-still goes to the odd program), Brian is well (199?-committed suicide, very talented artist, always had many guilt complexes and was often tortured by his inadequacies, of course Maharaji and Knowledge also became an issue of intense inner struggle for him although I don't know exactly what drove him to suicide in the end) We have lots of far-out musicians including a lovely guy called Nicholas whom you'd love (sings plays guitar) (no longer around) Other premies include Mick and Sarah Sparrow (very far out in Bliss) (no longer married..Mick is still a solid devotee I expect, he is a real old-timer)), Sue (ditto), another Sue , Nick and Mary en famille (extremely radiant have satsang there every tuesday- a really beautiful change here)(1998-no longer together, Nick,eccentric, other wordly-Mary vanished ) Gerald, Nick and Jane (ditto-very hard meditators). Tom and we have a mother called Minnie (1980's suffered serious mental breakdown-thought she was married to Maharaji etc. )with two kids, one a nine year old premie girl-they are all really beautiful premies. I am moving into a house with them, Tom, Dennis and Sue where we will run a Knowledge Course have Satsang etc. (hopefully). We have lots of satsang every night at different places and due to the beautifully hot sunny weather we have had parties and picnics every week. More premies are Claire and Nigel Smith (1970's Nigel in and out of mental hospital)Ron (very active meditator, Satsor,Servor,WWA etc.)Carol (Yea,she's really beautiful living with her mum, I had a Knowledge review with her) (1998 - renounced Maharaji , married 2 or 3 kids) Another guitar playing Tom who is very far out and meditative. Its really far out 'cos the aspirants especially Richard are totally comitted and involved in Satsang and Service all the time-John is around too looking for a settlement- He was in India and got back recently (1998-no longer practises-farmer-quite cynical about MJ). Cameron was here too for a few weeks for Leicester and he is really sincerely trying to propogate and to hang on to Maharaji all the time with a great love and effort.(1998-very cynical about Maharaji and his set up, knows many 'Premies around Maharaji' personally, in USA, has told me many things that directly confirm the scandals and rumours I have read of here) There are many other aspirants and premies here too, in fact I have surrendered a lot more and now my one desire is to meditate constantly and sincerely and to go to satsang every night, and to help bring Knowledge to the myriad aspirants by running a Knowledge Course in this town. I have become a member of AMP (Active Membership Programme) also. Guru Maharaji wants us to really share love and here it is manifesting with the gentle growth of a flower- The concepts in our minds are gracefully vanishing and the face of love is shining in the hearts of people whom I meet all the time. 'Together we can give Guru Maharajis Knowledge for Him to this world' is the feeling we are sharing. Graham and Richard cry a lot- David is very blissed out and gives Satsang and shines with a new understanding that he feels is marvelous (I believe that he too since committed suicide) Pete (1998- no longer interested)is sworn to getting on a Knowledge Course too and Henry (1998-my brother, never recovered from being tortured at the Palace of Peace in London at the hands of sadistic premie Service co-ordinators, hasn't spoken to me for years, although he lives nearby -never received Knowledge) has developed a gentle understanding which is growing with Grace. I meditate with my mother a lot and she too is blown out by the love (1998- I don't know where I got this idea from. Mum was a Christian Scientist who certainly I would meditate with, but she was very disturbed by the hypocrisies and selfishness displayed by us premies. She never wanted to receive Knowledge, but allowed us kids to hold Satsang on the lawn of our family home) We have parties here, Satsang outside, music etc. Personally I think its partly the beauty of the little premie Susie and Janet that softened her heart. Love is the answer. To give our our love to Guru Maharaj Ji. Love is 'perfect concentration on a perfect thing' Understanding comes only through totally sincere humble concentration on the Holy Name, Light, Music, Nectar, Satsang and Service. All are so integral and necessary for Peace. Peace comes only through dedication of every part of our attention to Knowledge. Every moment is the opportunity to give thanks to Maharaji through attention and care. Meditation is the only way to become pure enough to be a true devotee, as it is the direct experience of purity in its most powerful infinite essence. It's so nice to sit here and sing onto paper the glories of Guru Maharaji- and I will write again- please write back immediately and tell me when I will see you again in that radiant loveable physical body of yours!. Don't ever forget Guru Maharaji.. Yours sincerely. Yours Truly. By His Grace. In His Love.By the light of the Lord. By the beard of Allah. Bolie Sriiiii Satguru DEV Maharaji Kiii JAI. Au revoir. Salut.
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:19:02 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: anyone
Subject: Take 2..sorry (Re: and another letter from 1976....)
Message:
Rural England, Summer 1976 Written on return to England from USA. I have changed some names and added some parenthesis containing info as to what subsequently became of the people, if I know - Anon (Picture of Maharaji on head of letter adorned with comments from self) God in a human body.. The Foreman.. The Boss.. Our Daddy.. Our Father which art in Heaven... Dear George, I have just been meditating and feel so much love that I decided I should write to you post-haste! There has been an indescribable uplift in the hearts of premies since the festival at Leicester. I got back from LA feeling Guru Maharaj Ji everywhere pouring that bliss into me in meditation on the aeroplane. It was funny 'cos I never expected to leave the USA but He wants me to be here in England to help and share in the work of spreading Knowledge with all these incredible brothers and sisters here. Everywhere is the same, I am convinced of it, Malibu or Manchester! Guru Maharaj ji is not limited it is ourselves that are limited - completely hopelessly limited- without the Grace of this Knowledge. Before the festival I really tried to sincerely meditate with extra effort and on seeing and hearing Maharaji Ji my experience of Darshan was so perfectly fulfilling and I received a lot of faith which can always get more and more and more on the firmest foundation ever- of Knowledge. Peoples hearts are really singing here, yes. Speaking for all of us I can honestly say that the explosion of pure love here is really manifesting. I've been really blisssed out by the ever increasing intense enthusiasm of devotees here. I know you will be blissed out to hear of the news of these people as it is such an exciting thing to see those whom you have shared this life experiencing the same the very same consciousness as you. Jim (1998 no longer practising-works as a surveyor, 2 kids) is meditating and getting back into Knowledge with help and loving attention from Tom and I. I worked with Jim and gave him lots of Satsang on a building site !(1998, of no fixed address, Tom is into Firewalking and Astrology and known as 'Cosmic Tom' , considered a bit of a 'bongo' by some 'respectable' premies, but still vociferously pro Maharaji and claims to have met disembodied spirits too). Harry (1998-now a professional musician, very cynical about MJ)has completed about 3 Knowledge Courses and is on the brink of receiving Knowledge as are many(really) other shining Aspirants who are a huge inspiration. Rowan(1998-into drugs and Maharaji) , Simon,(1990's Heroin addict)Stephan,(uncertain about MJ) Mart, (1998-totally cynical about MJ)Jane (1998 doesn't practise, 2 kids, physiotherapist), Pete (1998-successful producer, doesn't practise Knowledge never goes to see MJ, married 3 kids, quite cynical about Maharaji) a girl called Marion and others. Even Mark (1998-married, writing a book, musician, totally disinterested in Maharaji, says he is just a good businessman) says he will receive Knowledge and comes to Satsang as does Shawn who is very into Knowledge a bit like you were a couple of years ago! (1998-Shawn never received Knowledge, blinded and brain damaged by Meningitis, severely depressed, told me recently he would like to learn how to meditate) God knows how far we can come in two seconds with Grace. Jane is engaged to Donald! Tarantara! (1996-Donald was killed in motorcycle accident) and Julian is around.(1998-permanently stoned on dope and struggling along with kids-still goes to the odd program), Brian is well (199?-committed suicide, very talented artist, always had many guilt complexes and was often tortured by his inadequacies, of course Maharaji and Knowledge also became an issue of intense inner struggle for him although I don't know exactly what drove him to suicide in the end) We have lots of far-out musicians including a lovely guy called Nicholas whom you'd love (sings plays guitar) (1998-no longer around) Other premies include Mick and Sarah Sparrow (very far out in Bliss) (no longer married..Mick is still a solid devotee I expect, he is a real old-timer)), Sue (ditto), another Sue , Nick and Mary en famille (extremely radiant have satsang there every tuesday- a really beautiful change here)(1998-no longer together, Nick,eccentric, other wordly-Mary vanished ) Gerald, Nick and Jane (ditto-very hard meditators). Tom and we have a mother called Minnie (1980's suffered serious mental breakdown-thought she was married to Maharaji etc. )with two kids, one a nine year old premie girl-they are all really beautiful premies. I am moving into a house with them, Tom, Dennis and Sue where we will run a Knowledge Course have Satsang etc. (hopefully). We have lots of satsang every night at different places and due to the beautifully hot sunny weather we have had parties and picnics every week. More premies are Claire and Nigel Smith (1970's Nigel in and out of mental hospital)Ron (very active meditator, Satsor,Servor,WWA etc.)Carol (Yea,she's really beautiful living with her mum, I had a Knowledge review with her) (1998 - renounced Maharaji , married 2 or 3 kids) Another guitar playing Tom who is very far out and meditative. Its really far out 'cos the aspirants especially Richard are totally comitted and involved in Satsang and Service all the time-John is around too looking for a settlement- He was in India and got back recently (1998-no longer practises-farmer-quite cynical about MJ). Cameron was here too for a few weeks for Leicester and he is really sincerely trying to propogate and to hang on to Maharaji all the time with a great love and effort.(1998-very cynical about Maharaji and his set up, knows many 'Premies around Maharaji' personally, in USA, has told me many things that directly confirm the scandals and rumours I have read of here) There are many other aspirants and premies here too, in fact I have surrendered a lot more and now my one desire is to meditate constantly and sincerely and to go to satsang every night, and to help bring Knowledge to the myriad aspirants by running a Knowledge Course in this town. I have become a member of AMP (Active Membership Programme) also. Guru Maharaji wants us to really share love and here it is manifesting with the gentle growth of a flower- The concepts in our minds are gracefully vanishing and the face of love is shining in the hearts of people whom I meet all the time. 'Together we can give Guru Maharajis Knowledge for Him to this world' is the feeling we are sharing. Graham and Richard cry a lot- David is very blissed out and gives Satsang and shines with a new understanding that he feels is marvelous (I believe that he too since committed suicide) Pete (1998- no longer interested)is sworn to getting on a Knowledge Course too and Henry (1998-my brother, never recovered from being tortured at the Palace of Peace in London at the hands of sadistic premie Service co-ordinators, hasn't spoken to me for years, although he lives nearby -never received Knowledge) has developed a gentle understanding which is growing with Grace. I meditate with my mother a lot and she too is blown out by the love (1998- I don't know where I got this idea from. Mum was a Christian Scientist who certainly I would meditate with, but she was very disturbed by the hypocrisies and selfishness displayed by us premies. She never wanted to receive Knowledge, but allowed us kids to hold Satsang on the lawn of our family home) We have parties here, Satsang outside, music etc. Personally I think its partly the beauty of the little premie Susie and Janet that softened her heart. Love is the answer. To give our our love to Guru Maharaj Ji. Love is 'perfect concentration on a perfect thing' Understanding comes only through totally sincere humble concentration on the Holy Name, Light, Music, Nectar, Satsang and Service. All are so integral and necessary for Peace. Peace comes only through dedication of every part of our attention to Knowledge. Every moment is the opportunity to give thanks to Maharaji through attention and care. Meditation is the only way to become pure enough to be a true devotee, as it is the direct experience of purity in its most powerful infinite essence. It's so nice to sit here and sing onto paper the glories of Guru Maharaji- and I will write again- please write back immediately and tell me when I will see you again in that radiant loveable physical body of yours!. Don't ever forget Guru Maharaji.. Yours sincerely. Yours Truly. By His Grace. In His Love.By the light of the Lord. By the beard of Allah. Bolie Sriiiii Satguru DEV Maharaji Kiii JAI. Au revoir. Salut.
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:32:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Take 2..sorry (Re: and another letter from 1976....)
Message:
Anon, That catalogue of then-and-nows is incredible. Are you serious that your brother STILL won't talk to you? Really? Maybe YOU'RE the biggest asshole in cyberspace. No, seriously, that's terrible. Can't you fix it (assuming you want to)?
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:40:14 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Take 2..sorry (Re: and another letter from 1976....)
Message:
Anon, That catalogue of then-and-nows is incredible. Are you serious that your brother STILL won't talk to you? Really? Maybe YOU'RE the biggest asshole in cyberspace. No, seriously, that's terrible. Can't you fix it (assuming you want to)? Yes, it's sad but true. I am working on it though. He may well still think I am going to attack him with a blissfull smile again. I believe that he sees no-one we both know except for my eternally caring mother. So he may indeed be unaware that I am no longer liable to mention the unmentionable and set off his dreaded anxieties.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:08:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Take 2..sorry (Re: and another letter from 1976....)
Message:
Dear Anon- thanks for putting these two letters on the forum - they are great. I know I used to write stuff like this too, but fortunately no one saved any of the letters (and I didn't write as well as you did, either!). Sorry about your brother - that must be hard for you. What happened to him in DLM that made him so angry? (if you don't mind telling, that is.)
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Date: Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:00:43 (EST)
Poster: sat guroovy
Email: *.*
To: Anon
Subject: good post anon! (Re: and another letter from 1976....)
Message:
Thanks for posting that Anon. wow what a flashback. The satsang programming was so insidious.
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: One of my old letters!
Message:
1975 Los Angeles Dear George, many thanks for your great letters. Its nice to keep in contact with you as in a sense its a service to communicate with everyone we know as it seems when premies write or talk anything, we just seem to have inspiration to hang tighter to Guru Maharaj ji's finger. Knowledge is the most natural thing ever, if only we could retain the faith and understanding and devotional love to be constantly connected we would be much happier than we could ever think. Los Angeles (Hollywood) is a very heavy city if you're sensitive to mind vibrations, as there are many unkind loveless and drained people negativing about, lost in a jungle of mind - you are lucky to have such proximity to nature. We are humans though and even in places where nature is abundant we will only see it naturally- ie in the Light of Truth- when we have gone beyond the seperate power of the mind. In LA I am forced to do a lot of meditation or very quickly drown in the uncomfortable feelings I get when I go outside. Really we are both in the same situation only different if you see what I mean. We are both experiencing the neccessity to trust Guru Maharaj ji and follow His instructions. It's great here if I take the constant opportunities I get given to serve and give satsang.In fact I've been getting really blissed out going to satsang here most nights and playing and coming together with people. I am grateful to be able to share all these experiences. Fleetwood Mac have been coming to satsang and there are millions of musicians here. It's a very intense thing you know whereby you really have to be practical about Knowledge like in most cities only more. The band is not coming together in the way I thought but I am being shown how to let go of any expectations of this world and just manifest love as much as I can in the present. That way I feel happy. To live in the past or future is very confusing! I am getting higher and higher in the Truthful consiousness though, which is so serene in this muddled world. My part in Guru Maharaj ji's play is only to be realised through meditation. It's like a big challenge to be in this city or rather.... (illegible bit..) like the Lord is sitting in a lotus flower playing his flute and beckoning us to join him floating free above the stagnant pond. Sulakshna Bai is coming tonight which is inspiring. Guru Maharaji gives us all just the amount of pleasure and pain we need and teaches us through every experience that our true home is the consciousness He revealed. We must really concentrate on Meditation and realise this Truth. I have met some of the best musicians here! As yet the Lord has not allowed me to play a consistent role in any one band though there are so many musicians milling about. I feel that we just have to be open to receive whatever he gives us and be grateful. Jai Sat Chit Anand!
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:23:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Love it! This is a great idea (Re: One of my old letters!)
Message:
1975 Los Angeles Dear George, many thanks for your great letters. Its nice to keep in contact with you as in a sense its a service to communicate with everyone we know as it seems when premies write or talk anything, we just seem to have inspiration to hang tighter to Guru Maharaj ji's finger. Knowledge is the most natural thing ever, if only we could retain the faith and understanding and devotional love to be constantly connected we would be much happier than we could ever think. Los Angeles (Hollywood) is a very heavy city if you're sensitive to mind vibrations, as there are many unkind loveless and drained people negativing about, lost in a jungle of mind - you are lucky to have such proximity to nature. We are humans though and even in places where nature is abundant we will only see it naturally- ie in the Light of Truth- when we have gone beyond the seperate power of the mind. In LA I am forced to do a lot of meditation or very quickly drown in the uncomfortable feelings I get when I go outside. Really we are both in the same situation only different if you see what I mean. We are both experiencing the neccessity to trust Guru Maharaj ji and follow His instructions. It's great here if I take the constant opportunities I get given to serve and give satsang.In fact I've been getting really blissed out going to satsang here most nights and playing and coming together with people. I am grateful to be able to share all these experiences. Fleetwood Mac have been coming to satsang and there are millions of musicians here. It's a very intense thing you know whereby you really have to be practical about Knowledge like in most cities only more. The band is not coming together in the way I thought but I am being shown how to let go of any expectations of this world and just manifest love as much as I can in the present. That way I feel happy. To live in the past or future is very confusing! I am getting higher and higher in the Truthful consiousness though, which is so serene in this muddled world. My part in Guru Maharaj ji's play is only to be realised through meditation. It's like a big challenge to be in this city or rather.... (illegible bit..) like the Lord is sitting in a lotus flower playing his flute and beckoning us to join him floating free above the stagnant pond. Sulakshna Bai is coming tonight which is inspiring. Guru Maharaji gives us all just the amount of pleasure and pain we need and teaches us through every experience that our true home is the consciousness He revealed. We must really concentrate on Meditation and realise this Truth. I have met some of the best musicians here! As yet the Lord has not allowed me to play a consistent role in any one band though there are so many musicians milling about. I feel that we just have to be open to receive whatever he gives us and be grateful. Jai Sat Chit Anand! Anon, Your letter was more fun than mine but then I'm so much younger than you, let's not forget. I met Mick Fleetwood in a bar one night when I lived in L.A. He wasn't too friendly, was really in his mind. I think it'd be great if more people posted their old memoires and correspondence. One reason, I have to admit, is that it gives me a nostalgic hit for the spirit of pending world domination we felt (by His Grace). I wonder if Muslim Fundamentalists get that same hit ('Oh my brother, God is great. We await your arrival next month with sober glee. Don't forget the ammunition.') So, there are three guys all slated to die on a set date two years hence. One is left in the dark. Another is told the truth. The third is not only NOT told, but is mislead to believe that he'll receive a few million bucks then. Obviously, the third guy will enjoy the time the best. The second will have the most knowledge and will be able to prepare, if that's at all possible for the end. The first will live the most naturally. Who's luckiest? Who would you rather be?
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:29:46 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Love it! This is a great idea (Re: One of my old letters!)
Message:
So, there are three guys all slated to die on a set date two years hence. One is left in the dark. Another is told the truth. The third is not only NOT told, but is mislead to believe that he'll receive a few million bucks then. Obviously, the third guy will enjoy the time the best. The second will have the most knowledge and will be able to prepare, if that's at all possible for the end. The first will live the most naturally. Who's luckiest? Who would you rather be? The second guy. No question about it. At least then I could attempt an escape.
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 22:31:58 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
Anon, Some great nostalgia! At least you weren't askin' for any money like poor Jim below. However the sentence, 'like the Lord is sitting in a lotus flower playing his flute and beckoning us to join him floating free above the stagnant pond.' more than makes up for this! I also like the part about 'many unkind loveless and drained people negativing about, lost in a jungle of mind.' What a riot! I feel as if I know you better already. Thanks for the laugh, VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 11:50:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
Gee, Anon. Sounds like you were a 'heavy' premie. I probably was too. What amazes me about your and Jim's letters (as well as those that I wrote) is how we summarily judged the entire world population, except for premies (sometimes) as confused and 'lost in the jungle of mind' and how we believed we had to use meditation to guard against the influence of other people, and of course ourselves. Hence we were in many ways isolating ourselves from much of any contact with the rest of humanity. Maharaji speaks this way too, so it isn't surprising that we as premies repeated it. It's unbelievably arrogant and offensive when he speaks that way. The last time I saw him speak, in 1990, he once again started criticizing 'human beings' as being stupid and confused in the most sarcastic manner. I got offended and walked out in the middle of his talk. I didn't think he had ever done much to contribute to the betterment of humanity, despite being in a position where he could have encouraged his followers to contribute, and hence I didn't think he was in any position to judge others. Especially because he had played a fraudulent 'god trip' all the way to the bank, and still does. I also noticed from these letters how we as premies coined words. 'Negativing???' 'Lusciousness???' Being a closed system, sometimes these words got repeated over and over, almost becoming 'code words' in the cult, although the meanings of the words were not discussed and hence vague or objectively meaningless. 'Mind' was certainly one, as was 'surrender,' 'devotion,' 'understanding,' 'grace,' 'experience' and of course, the litany of 'thats:' 'that place, 'that experience,' 'that love', etc. Using 'that' as an adjective, Maharaji took ordinary words and tried to act like there was some distinct specialness about what he was saying, when he wasn't really saying much of anything. Premies, of course, repeated endlessly what he said. Coining words, by the way, is one of the textbook symptoms of Schizophrenia. There are other similar symptoms to cult programming and Schizophrenia as well. [Regressive behavior, paranoia, delusions, comparmentalized thinking, simplistic responses to sophisticated and complicated questions, distorted perception of reality, believing that another entity is controlling or 'taking care' of you, cognitive dissnonance, extreme rationalization (usually unexpressed), etc.] Some psychologists have noted the similarities between cult programming and certain other symptoms of schizophrenia as well. It isn't surprising that people who already had schizophrenic tendencies when they got involved with Maharaji had them enhanced by the rigid, paranoid thinking engendered in Maharaji's cult, especially the fear of your own 'mind,' whatever that was, and desires, especially sexual desires. This may account for the relatively large number of premies who eventually committed suicide, and several others who attempted things like castration, like one of my ashram roomates.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:28:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
Gee, Anon. Sounds like you were a 'heavy' premie. I probably was too. What amazes me about your and Jim's letters (as well as those that I wrote) is how we summarily judged the entire world population, except for premies (sometimes) as confused and 'lost in the jungle of mind' and how we believed we had to use meditation to guard against the influence of other people, and of course ourselves. Hence we were in many ways isolating ourselves from much of any contact with the rest of humanity. Maharaji speaks this way too, so it isn't surprising that we as premies repeated it. It's unbelievably arrogant and offensive when he speaks that way. The last time I saw him speak, in 1990, he once again started criticizing 'human beings' as being stupid and confused in the most sarcastic manner. I got offended and walked out in the middle of his talk. I didn't think he had ever done much to contribute to the betterment of humanity, despite being in a position where he could have encouraged his followers to contribute, and hence I didn't think he was in any position to judge others. Especially because he had played a fraudulent 'god trip' all the way to the bank, and still does. I also noticed from these letters how we as premies coined words. 'Negativing???' 'Lusciousness???' Being a closed system, sometimes these words got repeated over and over, almost becoming 'code words' in the cult, although the meanings of the words were not discussed and hence vague or objectively meaningless. 'Mind' was certainly one, as was 'surrender,' 'devotion,' 'understanding,' 'grace,' 'experience' and of course, the litany of 'thats:' 'that place, 'that experience,' 'that love', etc. Using 'that' as an adjective, Maharaji took ordinary words and tried to act like there was some distinct specialness about what he was saying, when he wasn't really saying much of anything. Premies, of course, repeated endlessly what he said. Coining words, by the way, is one of the textbook symptoms of Schizophrenia. There are other similar symptoms to cult programming and Schizophrenia as well. [Regressive behavior, paranoia, delusions, comparmentalized thinking, simplistic responses to sophisticated and complicated questions, distorted perception of reality, believing that another entity is controlling or 'taking care' of you, cognitive dissnonance, extreme rationalization (usually unexpressed), etc.] Some psychologists have noted the similarities between cult programming and certain other symptoms of schizophrenia as well. It isn't surprising that people who already had schizophrenic tendencies when they got involved with Maharaji had them enhanced by the rigid, paranoid thinking engendered in Maharaji's cult, especially the fear of your own 'mind,' whatever that was, and desires, especially sexual desires. This may account for the relatively large number of premies who eventually committed suicide, and several others who attempted things like castration, like one of my ashram roomates. ...spoken in all sincerity by someone who had never had 'that' experience.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:42:18 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
JW, God, someone tried to castrate themselves! I saw a video of that cult that comitted suicide to hitch a ride behind the comet and one of them was castrated voulintaraly but I assumed it was by a doctor but maybe not, what doctor would do that! I saw a section on a magazine show last night about a cult. The woman must keep their gaze downward and the men hunt for food in trash cans! They do not marry unless the leader allows and he hasn't for 8 years. There were 3 sets of parents, all persuing their children. It was very sad to see their pain and to see the children turn from their parents, not for any reason other than that is what the leader says they should do. The camera team approached one of the followers who said they run from their parents because they don't want to be abducted. The also ran into the leader, who hadn't been seen in public in 20 years. He was very uncomfortable answering questions nonsencicly and very jumpy. He said he'd answer questions at another time but when asked how and when of course mumbled and jumped on the bus. There were a lot of dissimilarities but many similarities also. I am again so thankful that I wasn't more sucked into everything in DLM and apparently was in with other premies who weren't so controlling and when they did try to control me, when I first left the premie house and they came after me, I told them to get over it and they left. On the show they said one of the things that gets people into cults is an open mindedness encouraged by good parents and that other than explaining and warning our children there isn't much else to do to protect them. Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 13:21:09 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
With all due respect, Mili, I did have THAT experience. In fact, I still have it. It's all the crap the surrounded it in the cult that I don't have anymore and I'm so glad that I don't. Mili, as you have admitted in the past, you weren't as deeply into the Maharaji cult as some of the rest of us were, and so it didn't cost you a hell of a lot. I guess you were just lucky, and maybe not quite as gullible as some of the rest of us were in a fairly vulnerable time in you our youth.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:31:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: One of my old letters!
Message:
JW, God, someone tried to castrate themselves! I saw a video of that cult that comitted suicide to hitch a ride behind the comet and one of them was castrated voulintaraly but I assumed it was by a doctor but maybe not, what doctor would do that! I saw a section on a magazine show last night about a cult. The woman must keep their gaze downward and the men hunt for food in trash cans! They do not marry unless the leader allows and he hasn't for 8 years. There were 3 sets of parents, all persuing their children. It was very sad to see their pain and to see the children turn from their parents, not for any reason other than that is what the leader says they should do. The camera team approached one of the followers who said they run from their parents because they don't want to be abducted. The also ran into the leader, who hadn't been seen in public in 20 years. He was very uncomfortable answering questions nonsencicly and very jumpy. He said he'd answer questions at another time but when asked how and when of course mumbled and jumped on the bus. There were a lot of dissimilarities but many similarities also. I am again so thankful that I wasn't more sucked into everything in DLM and apparently was in with other premies who weren't so controlling and when they did try to control me, when I first left the premie house and they came after me, I told them to get over it and they left. On the show they said one of the things that gets people into cults is an open mindedness encouraged by good parents and that other than explaining and warning our children there isn't much else to do to protect them. Robyn Very interesting, Robyn. I agree that idealism and open-mindedness got many of us involved with Maharaji. In addition, most of us were very young, and grew up in the 60s, which I think was a particularly idealistic time in the world, at least in the U.S. I don't think it's any coincidence that most of the premies were white, middle or upper class, and hence had lead relatively protected lives. I think kids from the lower economic classes tended to be more skeptical of this stuff, and hence fewer of them got involved. By the way, my roommate who tried to castrate himself -- he said he did it because he was so worried about his sexual desires (caused by his evil mind which was trying to knock him off the path of devotion)interferring with his ashram vows and his ability to surrender to Maharaji. And do you know the 'help' this guy got for his obvious problems? He was told to do 'satsang, service and meditation.' That was the recipe, as we all know, for absolutely every problem there was.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 14:51:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Yeah, one of my roommates DID (Re: One of my old letters!)
Message:
JW, God, someone tried to castrate themselves! I saw a video of that cult that comitted suicide to hitch a ride behind the comet and one of them was castrated voulintaraly but I assumed it was by a doctor but maybe not, what doctor would do that! I saw a section on a magazine show last night about a cult. The woman must keep their gaze downward and the men hunt for food in trash cans! They do not marry unless the leader allows and he hasn't for 8 years. There were 3 sets of parents, all persuing their children. It was very sad to see their pain and to see the children turn from their parents, not for any reason other than that is what the leader says they should do. The camera team approached one of the followers who said they run from their parents because they don't want to be abducted. The also ran into the leader, who hadn't been seen in public in 20 years. He was very uncomfortable answering questions nonsencicly and very jumpy. He said he'd answer questions at another time but when asked how and when of course mumbled and jumped on the bus. There were a lot of dissimilarities but many similarities also. I am again so thankful that I wasn't more sucked into everything in DLM and apparently was in with other premies who weren't so controlling and when they did try to control me, when I first left the premie house and they came after me, I told them to get over it and they left. On the show they said one of the things that gets people into cults is an open mindedness encouraged by good parents and that other than explaining and warning our children there isn't much else to do to protect them. Robyn Very interesting, Robyn. I agree that idealism and open-mindedness got many of us involved with Maharaji. In addition, most of us were very young, and grew up in the 60s, which I think was a particularly idealistic time in the world, at least in the U.S. I don't think it's any coincidence that most of the premies were white, middle or upper class, and hence had lead relatively protected lives. I think kids from the lower economic classes tended to be more skeptical of this stuff, and hence fewer of them got involved. By the way, my roommate who tried to castrate himself -- he said he did it because he was so worried about his sexual desires (caused by his evil mind which was trying to knock him off the path of devotion)interferring with his ashram vows and his ability to surrender to Maharaji. And do you know the 'help' this guy got for his obvious problems? He was told to do 'satsang, service and meditation.' That was the recipe, as we all know, for absolutely every problem there was. Actually, as I've mentioned before, one of my ashram colleagues DID cut his balls off for the Lord. You know how the bible says 'some men are born eunuchs, some men are made eunuchs and some men become eunuchs for God'? Well neither did I, luckily!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 15:53:46 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yeah, one of my roommates DID (Re: One of my old letters!)
Message:
In light of this news I guess name calling isn't so bad! Robyn
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