Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 11 | |
From: Mar 21, 1998 |
To: Mar 28, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 17:21:02 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Don't Want To Be Worshipped Anymore... Message: VP mentioned some things revealing in Les' last post and I realized I hadn't read it. When I did, I noticed Les quoted Maharaji, in a satsang he said he gave right after he shut down the ashrams at which some of the former ashram premies were 'freaked to say the least.' He said someone was yelling at Maharaji from the audience and Maharaji responded that 'I didn't say you couldn't keep pictures or love me anymore, I just don't want to be worshipped.' My question is, did he REALLY say this? Can anyone else confirm it? Obviously, he has fallen off the wagon of this particular resolution. For example, you don't have thousands of people line up to kiss your feet if you aren't into being worshipped. So, maybe that was just another phase of the perfect master. I would also suggest that if I had been at that particular satsang, my question, as a 10-year celibate, ashram premie, 30 years old with no career and no prospects, I don't think my question to Maharaji would have been 'why can't we have pictures and love you,' rather, I think my question to him would be, 'what the fuck was that ashram trip about, anyway, you fat jerk?' By the way, I find Les' statement that the 'religion' that formed around Maharaji in the 70s was entirely the doing of the premies, to be a major revisionist lie, and quite offensive to the people who were sincerely trying to follow Mahraji's direction back then. But then, of course, any rationalization is possible for most premies to prevent the cardinal sin among premies of stating that Maharaji screwed up, and messed up the lives of a lot of people in the process. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:27:51 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Don't Want To Be Worshipped Anymore... Message: Joe: If premies really do believe that the craziness of the first 10 years of the guru in the West was the premies' fault then this whole scene is even sicker than I realized. I don't think they believe that though, I think they still believe he is God, that their lives are his lila etc. etc. This is a personality cult, pure and simple, what does it really matter what the premies believe he is, they still live their lives based on HIM, and his word is law. Ugh. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:14:38 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Don't Want To Be Worshipped Anymore... Message: Joe: If premies really do believe that the craziness of the first 10 years of the guru in the West was the premies' fault then this whole scene is even sicker than I realized. I don't think they believe that though, I think they still believe he is God, that their lives are his lila etc. etc. This is a personality cult, pure and simple, what does it really matter what the premies believe he is, they still live their lives based on HIM, and his word is law. Ugh. Agreed, John. But I think one of the aspects of being a premie is the ability (or the curse), to think entirely contradictory things and see no problem in doing that. For example, Les says it was all the premies who created the cult, but this, as you said, directly contradicts Maharaji's suppposed divinity, 'all-powerfulness,' 'all-knowingness,' and, as you said, his 'lila.' But now, most premies don't say Maharaji is god or all powerful, but I agree with you, underneath they still believe it. Hence, they have do rationalization back flips to explain anything, and much of what they believe isn't said because it makes no sense, or they think Maharaji doesn't want them to take about him in that way anymore. Either they have to say that M used to be all powerful, but isn't anymore, which makes absolutely no sense, or that he never really was and never claimed to be, which is just revisionist nonsense. I think it's particulary amusing (and sad, really) when premies just get so frustrated that they say they 'don't care' whether Maharaji is god or the Messiah or not, it just doesn't matter to them because they are enjoying their 'experience.' In my opinion, that statement just results from having done one too many rationalized back flips. I guess that's what makes discussing this stuff with premies so much fun. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 16:37:09 (EST)
Poster: master Email: To: Everyone Subject: service opportunity Message: If I don't have your email, send it to- bill52@rocketmail.com I have JW's Jim's Brian's Katie's and Mr. Ex's Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 20:03:32 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: master Subject: Re: service opportunity Message: Bill, What happened to that old music that you said you were going to send me about a year ago? CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:23:58 (EST)
Poster: sat guroovy Email: *.* To: CD Subject: CD=completely dense? (Re: service opportunity) Message: Bill, What happened to that old music that you said you were going to send me about a year ago? CD Hi Chris, In a moment of clarity recently I erased your email address. resend it. Ok chris, I am about ready to turn to the archives so I guess that will be when I finish your package. Mili too. By the way, turns out someone else is already doing my idea -thier style-, so thats good, I can relax about that, it is under the catagory of telling the truth. For a larger audience. What beer did you drink tonight? I had a harp. just one, don't want to take out to many brain cells! They might come in handy in my new life. Hartford has an excellent club scene-that I missed out on because I was-well, you know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 07:44:01 (EST)
Poster: Ron Email: To: Everyone Subject: Another Ex-Premie Checking In Message: Dear Ex-Premies, I found your site recently and I can hardly express the deep feelings of regret, strangely mixed with nostalgia, that swept over me. It was like lost youth, lost idealism, lost communalism, all mixed together. I was a premie around 73-75, living in premie houses in Miami and Tampa. I still meditate on my breath although I have found the other techniques less useful and convincing. The meditation on breath, for me, has just continued on as a kind of mindfulness meditation. The main reason I left the movement was because of what I perceived as a lack of intellectual content. I think it is good to let go of the mind at times and settle back into that energy, but I also think that we need critical thinking. I remember that in Tampa we decided to 'downgrade' from an ashram to a premie house and have our own money. The first thing I did was to buy BOOKS, science, philosophy, literature. My mind (yes, my mind)was so hungry! I look back on my experience as basically positive. The movement itself I eventually found to be flawed and I was disappointed in that, but I got over it. I really had no idea of how flawed it was until I found this site. I think it is interesting to compare Maharaji and Krishnamurti. Both were picked by adults when they were children to be Great Teachers,but Krishnamurti had the strength of character to renounce it when he became an adult. From reading the interview with the ex-President of Divine Light Mission, it seems that Maharaji came to that same point in his life but chose to continue with the charade. Best of wishes, Ron Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 09:50:48 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Ron Subject: Re: Another Ex-Premie Checking In Message: Dear Ron, Welcome to the forum. I had the same type of feelings, that you expressed so well, when I found this site, no very long ago. I to continue to find the meditation helpfull although I don't do them as much as I wish I did. I hope you find some thought provoking converstations and also some laughter here and you will surely find some anger to. Look forward to the addition of your 'voice'. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:37:34 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Ron Subject: Re: Another Ex-Premie Checking In Message: Ron: I have found this site very useful in that it has helped me recognize exactly what my feelings and thoughts are about that time in my life when I behaved like an idiot. I had totally swept the entire experience under the rug. For years I remembered my ten years following the guru as basically positive because of all the exciting and interesting and wild things we did as premies, but what I really refused to stop and come to grips with was: the guru himself. Why did I have no interest in seeing him again? If darshan had really been a chance to approach the actual body of the living Lord, why did I get slightly nauseous thinking about it, and why did I never want to have the experience again? And yet, I continued to talk, at least with a few friends, about the experience as being a positive one. Alexander Solzynitsin (sp?) wrote a great book about his spiritual growth in a prison in Siberia, 'One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich' (I think it was called that). So, spiritual growth can occur anytime, under any conditions, it has to do with ME, and my attitude. The fact that I got something out of my involvement was actually unavoidable. Everyone gets something out of whatever happens to them. Shining a flashlight into my memories of what happened 20 years ago has been really fun and educational for me. I now truly reject the guru and everything he stands for. And it feels great to rid myself of my wishy washy feelings about my experience. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:40:43 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John K. Subject: Re: Another Ex-Premie Checking In Message: John, Well said! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 14:35:48 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Ron Subject: Re: Another Ex-Premie Checking In Message: Dear Ex-Premies, I found your site recently and I can hardly express the deep feelings of regret, strangely mixed with nostalgia, that swept over me. It was like lost youth, lost idealism, lost communalism, all mixed together. I was a premie around 73-75, living in premie houses in Miami and Tampa. I still meditate on my breath although I have found the other techniques less useful and convincing. The meditation on breath, for me, has just continued on as a kind of mindfulness meditation. The main reason I left the movement was because of what I perceived as a lack of intellectual content. I think it is good to let go of the mind at times and settle back into that energy, but I also think that we need critical thinking. I remember that in Tampa we decided to 'downgrade' from an ashram to a premie house and have our own money. The first thing I did was to buy BOOKS, science, philosophy, literature. My mind (yes, my mind)was so hungry! I look back on my experience as basically positive. The movement itself I eventually found to be flawed and I was disappointed in that, but I got over it. I really had no idea of how flawed it was until I found this site. I think it is interesting to compare Maharaji and Krishnamurti. Both were picked by adults when they were children to be Great Teachers,but Krishnamurti had the strength of character to renounce it when he became an adult. From reading the interview with the ex-President of Divine Light Mission, it seems that Maharaji came to that same point in his life but chose to continue with the charade. Best of wishes, Ron Hello, Ron. I enjoyed your post. I think it really is true that Maharaji's cult was profoundly anti-intellectual. Such thoughts were considered part of 'mind' and were discouraged and considered suspect. I also felt a profound desert of anything intellectual while being in the cult, and it was very hard to accept. Maharaji fostered this himself, mostly because he was uneducated and put down those types of endeavors. I recall being grateful that I had a job in 'the world' because I got to read the newspaper and talk to people about things that interested them, without the premie-police, or the initiator-police, looking over my shoulder and saying I was in my mind and should just be meditating. I did feel guilty about it, though. It was like I was putting something in ahead of Maharaji, and that wasn't supposed to be happening. It was such a weird discipline of repressing things that felt right, for things that felt so wrong, but nevertheless I had faith in. I guess that is part of the definition of a cult. I also think you were fortunate that your involvement was only a couple of years. Some of us stayed a decade or more and hence we lost a lot more of our lives to the charade Maharaji has been playing. I guess I was like you, as well in the sense that when I left, I knew I never wanted to go back, and the whole thing made me feel sick, but I still described it as basically benign, maybe just a misguided discretion of my youth. Part of this was embarrassment, but part of this was the inability to look at how programmed I really was. But, in the course of therapy, I started to really look at it, and believe me, I didn't really want to. It was then that I realized what a charlatan Maharaji was and how he had ripped me off for his own selfish benefit. Then, for the first time, I felt the anger, I stopped blaming myself and placed responsibility and blame where is belonged and I began to feel free from it all. It was a terrific feeling. Now I feel like I can look at it all much more objectively, without fear, and see it for what is really is. Now, talking about it can be interesting and fun. I still feel some of the anger, but it is not in any sense overwhelming like it used to be sometimes. Thanks, again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 05:07:51 (EST)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Everyone Subject: just to say Hi Message: Hi to Jim Scott and all, Long time no write. I was reading and writing to this site quite frequently this time last year from Singapore, but I went away on holiday and when I came back everything had changed and I could not get access to the site or the newsgroup. Living in Singapore I suspected the worst , that the government was blocking access, as they do with quite a lot of stuff ( controlling the pollution from the west), but now I think there were probably more mundane explanations for my lack of access. Anyway now that I have moved to New Zealand I1ve been able to read the newsgroups and the forum, which is my favorite, It`s been a bit voyeuristic just reading , but really enjoyable seeing that all of the regulars are still contributing to this forum, a bit like catching up with your favorite soap. I was a bit disappointed to find that there was no blockbuster revelations from some high up premie spilling the dirt with dates and account numbers etc because there must be an awful lot of people out their with an uneasy conscience about what they have done in the name of the Lord. When I came to NZ looking for work I stopped with an old premie friend in Auckland, who still practices. He invited me to a program and I went, out of curiosity and good grace because I was sleeping and eating in his house. People came , watched the video and left , there was no human interaction. This was the highlight of the week for these guys and it seemed so soulless. The spark of `the lord has come ` seems to have been replaced by something akin to TM. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 05:23:04 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: just to say Hi Message: Nice to hear from you again Bill. Are you involved in flying out there in NZ? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 07:13:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: just to say Hi Message: Mr. Cooper! Welcome back! Last I heard you were going on summer vacation last year and never came back. Thought the move to and from Usenet threw you. Sorry to hear about the blocking in Singapore, but congratulations on your freedom. As for your adventures in Videoland, it's amazing how many people get so little out of something they have so little participation in, and yet continue to participate. TV is so passive. Remember sitting around at satsang talking about OUR experiences, rather than sitting watching MJ drone on about his? Keep posting, Mr. Cooper. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 14:46:33 (EST)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: just to say Hi Message: Nice to hear from you again Bill. Are you involved in flying out there in NZ? Hi Anon, Not done any flying here yet, my ppl lapsed while in Singapore. I'm busy working on my Murphy renegade spirit a 2 place biblane. It will be a beauty when its finished and I know that New Zealand will be a great place to fly in , beautiful scenery and mostly unresricted airspace. We are down in the south island, great mountains but its getting colder as winter is approaching, thats going to be a novelty after Singapore ! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 16:30:07 (EST)
Poster: master Email: *.* To: Bill Cooper Subject: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Hi Bill Cooper! There is plenty of dirt in the archives. By the way, maharaji has posted here. He posted under the name Student. After the weekend I'll pull up some of his posts and explain the ways in which you can tell his manner of speaking. Of course CD and Mili and even OP don't listen to him enough to recognise his arrogance and style. You might enjoy his definition of master- master-the most God-concious, God-like human alive at the time. The one who has assumed the service of a lifetime. The one who needs no clarification. God incarnate, although the potential was always there for every human being. Most of us are lifetimes away from this level of conciousness. Since being with him seems like lifetimes, I have reached the master level. He posts as student, I post as master. I will have to review the posts of others to see if he has posted before. People here have thier doubts about this because thier familiarity with him is either old, or, if recent, vague because they don't really pore over his videos like I did until quite recently. I am willing to make this claim, not that I care what others think actually, for me it removed the last obstacle between me and my (now) future actions. Hi Coops, It's the other bill, the burke. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 17:26:11 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: master Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: By the way, maharaji has posted here. He posted under the name Student. Bill, I really don't think this is true. I'm worried.I don't know how to put this, but your posts seem to have developed a tinge of...well ...frankly you're sounding a bit manic as of late old fellow (possibly even paranoid is not too strong a word) Maybe you need a relaxing break? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 20:55:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: By the way, maharaji has posted here. He posted under the name Student. Bill, I really don't think this is true. I'm worried.I don't know how to put this, but your posts seem to have developed a tinge of...well ...frankly you're sounding a bit manic as of late old fellow (possibly even paranoid is not too strong a word) Maybe you need a relaxing break? Hi Bill(s), I agree, Mr. Cooper, that it's a bit disappointing that more dirt hasn't yet spilled from high sources. Mind you, while you were gone we did hear some interesting stuff from Malibu Mole, not to mention all the really good info Mr. Ex has offered. I know that some scoff at evolutionary psychology's readiness to connect our dots but, I still like it and thus mention that many ev/psychs think we're hard-wired (i.e. have evolved) with an appetite for gossip. Face it, it's a primary appetite. Anon, I don't think Burke is losing it. He's always been like this. I DO wonder how he's satisfied himself that Maharaji is Student. But it sounds like he's about to tell us anyway. Really, Bill, it wouldn't be beyond imagination. Please state your case. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 22:07:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Bill Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Dear Bill - Like Anon, I am a little worried about you too. (I don't think Student is Maharaji. I don't think Maharaji can write that well, for one thing.) What's going on? Take care of yourself, Katie P.S. I understand why you're using the 'master' name to post under, but it does make me cringe. Not a very appealing name to us ex-premies! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 23:06:14 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: just to say Hi Message: Bill: Re: People came , watched the video and left , there was no human interaction. This was the highlight of the week for these guys and it seemed so soulless. The spark of `the lord has come ` seems to have been replaced by something akin to TM. How utterly extraordinary! Practically everything I valued in 'the mission' is gone. No Mahatma Gurucharanand jumping around and shouting 'I'm a crazy idiot!' No strange people to talk to at 3:00 AM. No standing around barefoot in our prayer shawls on a hot night looking at the stars. No Baskin Robbins after satsang. No sexual tension and expectant undercurrents. No half-mad trips across the country riding on the roof of a repainted and dilapidated school bus with more people than can fit on a jumbo jet. Oh well... I guess they still have Maha.. what's his name? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 23:16:36 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Jim: Regarding: I DO wonder how he's satisfied himself that Maharaji is Student. But it sounds like he's about to tell us anyway. Really, Bill, it wouldn't be beyond imagination. Please state your case. Well, he DID say that he has loved Maharaj Ji since we was a child. It fits. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 23:59:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Scott! Don't add fuel to the fire! Please! Seriously, Bill often suspects that anyone who is anon is someone other than who they say they are (except our Anon, that is). Maybe he's right, but 'Student' also said she was a 28 year old woman who got K when she was 13 from Ira Woods. She said she'd been going to satsang and programs since the age of 3, with her premie mom. I personally think that Student is who she says she is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:17:54 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Oh, please. Ever heard of sarcasm? Our BB has an incredible, dry sense of humor. His post is an excellent example of his abilities. Keep it up, Bill, I enjoyed it. I personally think that if this website didn't exist Maharaji would have to create it. We are all instruments in his divine plan, the point of which our primitive and unrealized brains cannot understand. His plan is to forbid the premies from giving satsang, and only allow ex-premies to do so. Pearls of wisdom from the anals of Guru Maharaj Ji: You know my Guru drives a Maserati And people say he's got an ugly body But when you turn around you will find That it was all designed to blow your mind No, you can't have conceptions Let me give you a tip Every time you got it figured out Maharaji blows your trip 'Oh the little people, don't they know? You can give away all the warm fuzzies and still have more than enough left!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:23:50 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: just to say Hi Message: Hi Bill, glad you were able to escape from Singapore, wher big brother knows what's best for you. Remember those discussions you used to have on the forum in the middle of the night? At least it was in the middle of somebodys' night. Glad to have you back! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:11:14 (EST)
Poster: sat guroovy Email: *.* To: Anon Subject: Re: welcome back (Re: just to say Hi) Message: Hi Anon, Patience, patience, the posts are coming, I'm just waiting for the new reset forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 22:22:52 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!! Message: Garland, Texas (CNN) - A Taiwanese cult leader who claims he fathered Jesus 2,000 years ago and now talks to God through a ring on his finger says God will appear on television at 12:01 a.m. (CST) on Wednesday. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 22:26:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!! Message: Jim - don't you think it's about time (again) that you published your 'millenium' letter to your mom and sister? (I'd never have the nerve, BTW, but I do respect you for it! Really!) Thanks, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 22:28:36 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!! Message: Jim - don't you think it's about time (again) that you published your 'millenium' letter to your mom and sister? (I'd never have the nerve, BTW, but I do respect you for it! Really!) Thanks, Katie I don't have it my computer, ma'am, or I would. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 03:03:37 (EST)
Poster: Here it is: Email: To: Jim Subject: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: SALUTATIONS AT THE SUPREME LOTUS FEET OF SATGURU MAHARAJI JI Dear Julie and Mom: The word of God is the supreme and conscious energy that has created the entire Universe, is keeping it alive in perfect harmony, and destroys it as each part of the divine plan unfolds. It is lila, God's play, a total act of his infinite love. The human body is the most precious gift in God's creation, for in it, our soul can realize God and finally return home to the infinite love and peace that is keeping us alive. For this reason we are alive and for this truth we are searching with each breath we take. If we are open like a child, if we have faith in love, like a child, then we are most fortunate. For that Word, that Holy Name of God, has taken a separate body to save us from separation, from all fear and suffering. When Christ lived, he baptized his disciples in the Holy Spirit. The trinity is spoken of in the Catholic church -- that the father, the son and the holy spirit are all one. The body of Guru Maharaj Ji is the son today. The Holy Spirit is that vibration that is making our breath move and keeping us alive. It is beauty, it is love, it is truly whe we really are. Every thought we have is our mind groping for truth; until we have received this perfect Knowledge of God, this is all we can do, and this is called, by great saints, suffering, damnation. But when we receive Knowledge for the first time in our life we have a choice: we can merge our consciousness, that which is asking to know its true identity, that is our real 'I', with the source of all life itself. This is freedom. This is salvation. This is the ONLY purpose for this human life. In these few months since I have received this very subtle and holy seed, I'm experiencing Maharaji opening me up to love itself, like a rosebud to the sun. [Yech!] It is oh so subtle and yet oh so real. I'm experiencing a thing that is infinitely more fulfilling than whatever all of my life's hopes and strivings, everything any friend or anything in the physical world, could ever do for me. And this is just the slightest of beginnings. Everybody who is practising this Knowledge and putting forth that effort is getting so high. It's fantastic. And Guru Maharaj Ji has said that he is going to reveal Heaven to the whole world. Millenium '73 (to which you should both come) is going ot be be the most important event in the entire history of mankind. It is spoken of in great detail in the Bible in Revelations. There, Guru Maharaj Ji will inaugaurate 1,000 years of peace on earth for the family of man. (next day --) Well I moved into the ashram last night and already I can sense how truly fortunate I am to be able to live in Guru Maharaj Ji's house and live under his schedule and serve under his direct orders. It truly is beautiful here. I didn't really think I would be moving in, before Millenium at least, but I had expressed to Ron, the genereal secretary, an interest to live here before and he called me yesterday and asked me if I wanted to move in. The whole hip movement, and really the whole values of our culture that we've grown up in, has always been based on the conception that the means for a person to find true freedom and this true happiness was in giving free reigns to his mind; that in allowing the mind to do whatever it might dream up in its groping for peace, once could eventually find the way of life that would appease us. But tihs is completely false. There isn't a thread of truth in it. In fact it is the very assumption that holds us back so much. Real freedom can only be experienced by knowing and practising that thing that can control our thoughts and allow us to experience our pure and perfect soul. And only the word of God is powerful enough and subtle enough to do this. Do you follow me at all? Because I've tried both, and every premie has. I've had complete liberty in my life to do whatever my mind wanted. Especially this past year or so. There were no restrictions at all on me and yet, without knowing how to control the mind, life is meaningless. Because there is nothing in the transient physical world that can satisfy our heart's lifelong call. It's like we can travel all over the world and have lots of money and time to do all of these things but the physical path, for all its apparent lusciousness and infinite wideness at first, is really very limited and very dry and, in the long run, at the end of a person's life spent in this fashion,one realizes that it can offer nothing. The path of love, however, the spiritual path, for all its seemingly dry qualities when first observed, is exactly the opposite in that it constantly opens up into the completely pure beauty, everything, everything, that life can offer. And this opening up is infinite. And nothing, not a thing, is lost. For the physical world was made neither for us to suffer in nor for us to escape from but to enjoy as a play, as a beautiful toy, an expression of love. So this knowledge is the thing that if practised with faith, all parts of it, Satsang, Service and Meditation and Darshan, or the physical presence of the Lord, that can satisfy us. But it's not as if our mind is changed after we get knoweldge [ha, ha, ha]. It's just that for the first time in our lives we know a place inside that is calm and full of love and bliss and, if we choose, we can experience it. But -- and this is how Millenium ties in -- we're completely missing the point if we expect peace to come and get us. You see, that peace is already here, it's keeping the whole universe alive. It's up to us to come to the peace, and then we can have the complete experience. And that's why Millenium is called 'a thousand years of peace for people who want peace.' Because Guru Maharaj Ji is really running the whole show and he is, right now, establishing peace, Heaven , on the planet. But dow we want to experience it? It's all up to us. The people who go to Millenium will be the ones who will experience the most amazing thing internally, but those who read about it in the papers will just be observers, scratching their heads and trying to figure out what's happening. So really it would be fantastic, fantastic if you two came. You know it's going to be very, very well run and all of the parents of premies are going to be in their own hotel (in which the Mahatmas wil be staying also) [funny, how that still wasn't enough]. And the charter costs only $225 including everything. Only premies and parents or children of premies can go on the charters so you're really lucky. [yes, well..] And after Millenium I won't be able to come back to Toronto anyway because there is so much to be done here and ashram residents don't get a chance to travel around. So please come to the most beaustiful and historic event in the history of the planet. Don't THINK THINK THINK about it, just come. It is by all means possible. Many of my friends' parents are coming. By the way Julie, Grant, Ivy's brother, received Knowledge when Mahatma Ji was here and so did Paul Gellman. You know this isn't the first time I've told you about Maharaj Ji, but how can I possibly do anything else? Soon, you'll be asking me how I could have only written letters to you when I knew that God was walking on the planet. Also,[my favorite part] in this material world this is the touchiest of all, but I am desparately in need of money myself, as I have no money for my own flight and the money must be in very, very soon. I'm working now, I have a far out job in a carpet store called Jordan's Rugs, but all of the ashram money goes into propagation and Millenium itself is in great need of money. So all ashram residents, and it's working out that most of the community for the same reasons, has to ask for money from family and friends. So please, I would very much appreciate it if you can send me whatever you can. Well I've written a fairly long letter now and the typing's getting really scattered. So much love to you both, Jim P.S. You should pick up the most recent 'And it is Divine.' It's fantastic. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 03:23:52 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Squirm, ugghh, oh the embarrasment! Did you family ever send you the money? I'm glad my parents never kept my letters about Maharaji plus all the pictures of M which I sent them with Maharaji dressed in his Krishna costume, crown and all and with my subtle caption, 'The Lord has come!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 03:36:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: David Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: David, I don't know about Jim (whatever people may say about him - the poor guy - we keep posting this letter and he allows it!), but I was quite fortunate because my younger sister was also a premie. Thus when we had to give up all our possessions to sell in order to finance Millenium, she supported me, and so forth. It IS still hard to think about though. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 09:57:52 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Jim, Is that really you? Oh, my God! I am finding it so hard to believe that this letter was written by the same person whose posts I have been reading on this forum. Thank you so much for sharing this with us (me). It sounds like so many letters that I myself received. As a friend getting letters like this was shocking enough, but to receive something like this as a parent, whoa! I'm glad that you have a good sense of humor about this now. I don't know how anyone could get on here and tell you that you weren't sincere in your heart to GMJ or that you weren't 'devoted enough.' Les was right, he wasn't prepared enough to enter into debate with you on this forum. VP P.S. Is the Millenium event the thing everyone raised money for and then M used the money to buy a jet instead? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:23:05 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Jim, Great letter. Very brave of you to show it to us. I wrote some letters like that, but I have no copies. I got painfully bored about halfway through and skipped down to the part where you're asking for money. That was funny. I'm taking it you didn't get any hundred dollar bills in the mail. You are certain to burn in hell for forsaking the guru. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:23:06 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Jim, I just picture your mom reading that and what must have been going through her mind which had me thinking of my parents thoughts on my involvment. The things kids do that freak their parents out. You were head over heels weren't you! Did non-premies ever try to shake some sence into you? If they did I'll bet your arguments would make A Sap, Les etc. very proud. It is so amazing to realize how much our reality changes, our perseptions of everything just by how our mind perseves things. Uh oh, there is that pesky mind directing even fanatical premies. Even then your mind made a desicion to 'go for it' with M and K. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 11:20:05 (EST)
Poster: Another Old-timer Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Shivers felt in San Diego. But wait a minute... I thought that when premies moved into the ashram, all their expenses were paid. Seemed like the only reason to move in was to stop having to deal with getting to and from programs. I remember talking a friend in going to a program in Denver. She had three little kids and we ended up with no way home afterwards. Her sister wired us money. Once there, I mentioned that we were planning to go to Florida for a program in November. She glared as she said, 'I'm not paying for it.' Little did she realize that she was a vehicle for grace (my rationalization). eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 11:59:41 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Robyn Subject: I wish they did, I wish they did (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Jim, I just picture your mom reading that and what must have been going through her mind which had me thinking of my parents thoughts on my involvment. The things kids do that freak their parents out. You were head over heels weren't you! Did non-premies ever try to shake some sence into you? If they did I'll bet your arguments would make A Sap, Les etc. very proud. It is so amazing to realize how much our reality changes, our perseptions of everything just by how our mind perseves things. Uh oh, there is that pesky mind directing even fanatical premies. Even then your mind made a desicion to 'go for it' with M and K. Robyn Robyn, You ask me if non-premies tried to shake some sence [sic] into me. If only. My mother and I got into a bit of an argument last year. She recalls siccing (sp?) some friends on me. One, Charles Templeton, was a big reformed Christian evangelist. My point was that even he didn't have the right intellectual framework to be effective. I have to wonder how I'd have reacted to an argument that: 1) was based, as are ours, on 25 years of vascillation, evasion, dissafection and dissent in the cult. 25 years of empty promises to prove anything of what Maharaji claimed was already in the bag. (Imagine a fund drive for United Appeal with their big money 'thermometers'. How effective would the UA be if the goals level never got higher but only dropped over the decades.) 2) was free of the anti-rational and wilfully naive fuax-youth cultural atmosphere of the late 60s, early 70s. 3) was presented by a bunch of disgruntled followers who had not grown horns and started bleating but who, instead, seemed to enjoy leaving the guru behind and had some very level-headed yet scathing opinions about it all. If only. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 12:02:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Oh, I forgot the best part (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Jim, I just picture your mom reading that and what must have been going through her mind which had me thinking of my parents thoughts on my involvment. The things kids do that freak their parents out. You were head over heels weren't you! Did non-premies ever try to shake some sence into you? If they did I'll bet your arguments would make A Sap, Les etc. very proud. It is so amazing to realize how much our reality changes, our perseptions of everything just by how our mind perseves things. Uh oh, there is that pesky mind directing even fanatical premies. Even then your mind made a desicion to 'go for it' with M and K. Robyn Robyn, You ask me if non-premies tried to shake some sence [sic] into me. If only. My mother and I got into a bit of an argument last year. She recalls siccing (sp?) some friends on me. One, Charles Templeton, was a big reformed Christian evangelist. My point was that even he didn't have the right intellectual framework to be effective. I have to wonder how I'd have reacted to an argument that: 1) was based, as are ours, on 25 years of vascillation, evasion, dissafection and dissent in the cult. 25 years of empty promises to prove anything of what Maharaji claimed was already in the bag. (Imagine a fund drive for United Appeal with their big money 'thermometers'. How effective would the UA be if the goals level never got higher but only dropped over the decades.) 2) was free of the anti-rational and wilfully naive fuax-youth cultural atmosphere of the late 60s, early 70s. 3) was presented by a bunch of disgruntled followers who had not grown horns and started bleating but who, instead, seemed to enjoy leaving the guru behind and had some very level-headed yet scathing opinions about it all. If only. I forgot the fourth difference a modern argument against Maharaji has than the ones we were exposed to did: modern science, in particular (for me), modern darwinism and evolutionary psychology. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 12:23:26 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Another Old-timer Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: No old timer. Us ashram premies really were poor. Certainly when I was in the ashram we had to find the money to go to programs and festivals ourselves as all our wages were handed over each week to the ashram secretary. We were allowed to do extra work besides our main jobs, in order to get money to go to programs. In one ashram I lived in we used to do casual labour in a bakery all night for about a week or two, to get the program money. And that was as well as working in the day at our regular jobs. I missed the Milliennium festival. I remember it was my 21st birthday at the time and I was happy to be knocking on people's doors selling Divine Times while you lot were in the blissful presence of the Lord. I wasn't jealous, honest. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 12:56:54 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Oh Jim, I haven't laughed so hard in years!! Brings it all right back! My mother, also, has a similar letter from me, which I saw last time I was at her house, and just died with embarassment, and will try and get her to send it to me, what a reminder of how it REALLY was for us back then. I was fortunate enough to be at IHQ in Denver most of my ashram days, where we got our fares paid to go to these big programs, though usually us 'peons' had to drive by car, six to a car (woe to whoever got the middle seats), and we drove nonstop from Denver to wherever it was, as there was no money for motels overnight. I can tell you that it's a 42 hour nonstop drive from Denver to Miami Beach, having made it a number of times in a car with five others. (My back hasn't been the same since.) I also remember going nonstop from Denver to Houston for Millennium, with Charles Cameron (the poet) in the car, at least he kept everyone well entertained. Then when we got to Houston we slept in some gawd-awful place called the 'Peace Plant' which was basically hundreds of foam mattresses (with no sheets) in a warehouse. It was so humid and hot in Houston, I could NOT sleep on that bare foam, it was just too uncomfortable, and found some friends who had a hotel room and crashed on their floor, much better. But the thing that annoys me most about Millennium was the shameless fundraising for the whole event, plus the massive debt that piled up afterwards, despite the fundraising. I was already in the ashram, and had given over all my possessions, jewelry, clothes, records, etc. with the exception of two 18-carat thin carved gold bangle bracelets which I wore continually, never took off, and hadn't for years, they were family heirlooms, a gift from my father, and were not to be given away, I had had them since childhood. They HOUNDED me relentlessly about these bracelets, the treasurers would not cease laying guilt trips on me about how I was holding out on the Lord, it was for peace on earth, how could I be so selfish, so eventually I took them off and handed them over in disgust, a move I regret to this very day. Recently my father asked me about those bracelets and I had to tell him their fate, much to my unending shame. So Maharaji or Michael Bergman if you're reading this, 'I want my bracelets back, dammit!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 15:21:33 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Joy Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Oh Jim, I haven't laughed so hard in years!! Brings it all right back! My mother, also, has a similar letter from me, which I saw last time I was at her house, and just died with embarassment, and will try and get her to send it to me, what a reminder of how it REALLY was for us back then. I was fortunate enough to be at IHQ in Denver most of my ashram days, where we got our fares paid to go to these big programs, though usually us 'peons' had to drive by car, six to a car (woe to whoever got the middle seats), and we drove nonstop from Denver to wherever it was, as there was no money for motels overnight. I can tell you that it's a 42 hour nonstop drive from Denver to Miami Beach, having made it a number of times in a car with five others. (My back hasn't been the same since.) I also remember going nonstop from Denver to Houston for Millennium, with Charles Cameron (the poet) in the car, at least he kept everyone well entertained. Then when we got to Houston we slept in some gawd-awful place called the 'Peace Plant' which was basically hundreds of foam mattresses (with no sheets) in a warehouse. It was so humid and hot in Houston, I could NOT sleep on that bare foam, it was just too uncomfortable, and found some friends who had a hotel room and crashed on their floor, much better. But the thing that annoys me most about Millennium was the shameless fundraising for the whole event, plus the massive debt that piled up afterwards, despite the fundraising. I was already in the ashram, and had given over all my possessions, jewelry, clothes, records, etc. with the exception of two 18-carat thin carved gold bangle bracelets which I wore continually, never took off, and hadn't for years, they were family heirlooms, a gift from my father, and were not to be given away, I had had them since childhood. They HOUNDED me relentlessly about these bracelets, the treasurers would not cease laying guilt trips on me about how I was holding out on the Lord, it was for peace on earth, how could I be so selfish, so eventually I took them off and handed them over in disgust, a move I regret to this very day. Recently my father asked me about those bracelets and I had to tell him their fate, much to my unending shame. So Maharaji or Michael Bergman if you're reading this, 'I want my bracelets back, dammit!' I can really relate, Joy. Some years ago my mom pulled out a STACK of letters I had written to her and my father prior to about 1976 while I was in the cult. Talk about embarrassment. I destroyed them, I hated them so much. Regarding fundraising for Millennium. It got SO bad that I recall that in the ashram I was living in, we had group meditation, and one by one, premies went to another room and called up their friends and relatives and asked for money. We meditated to support them in their fundraising for the Lord of the Universe. It was SO humiliating, but you simply weren't devoted if you didn't do it. I actually called college friends, several of whom sent me money. My parents refused, being somewhat sane. I had already turned over all my money and possessions, plus anything else I could get my hands on. They were not about to contribute anything addition to my insanity. And the astronomical debt after Millennium was pretty amazing too. And I agree, Jim has a lot of guts to print a letter like that. I particularly like the use of the word 'lusciousness.' Only a raving cult-member premie would come up with a word like that. I also LOVE this sentence. It was like we were all trying to speak and write like the verses of the Bible or something because it sounded profound that way: 'Real freedom can only be experienced by knowing and practising that which can control our thoughts and allow us to experience our pure and perfect soul.' Jim, that sentence is absolutely priceless. I can't stop laughing. By the way, Joy. Michael Bergman had a nervous breakdown while I was working at IHQ in Miami Beach in 1979. He was in charge of publicity and was working with Life Magazine to do a very 'positive' story about Holi Festival. The result made Maharaji look crazed and DLM the most bizarre cult in the world. Michael then had a nervous breakdown and I think was sent to some premie house in Michigan to recover. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 16:30:12 (EST)
Poster: Paul Email: To: Joy Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: I remember that horrible peace plant. I was in from the LA ashram and doing PR with Richard Profumo(?). I thought we were really letting the media in on the greatest historical event. They just humored us in order to get theinfo they needed to show how crazy we were. The PBS special using the fish-eyed lens was particularly revealing (though not to us at the time). Your bracelet story touched a nerve. I was on the darshan line at Montrose (guru puja 72) and I had nothing to give but the ring my parents had given me. So I did I, however, can not even claim any pressure from others. I had to show my complete surrender and devotion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 18:16:45 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: David Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: No old timer. Us ashram premies really were poor. Certainly when I was in the ashram we had to find the money to go to programs and festivals ourselves as all our wages were handed over each week to the ashram secretary. We were allowed to do extra work besides our main jobs, in order to get money to go to programs. In one ashram I lived in we used to do casual labour in a bakery all night for about a week or two, to get the program money. And that was as well as working in the day at our regular jobs. I missed the Milliennium festival. I remember it was my 21st birthday at the time and I was happy to be knocking on people's doors selling Divine Times while you lot were in the blissful presence of the Lord. I wasn't jealous, honest. David, you didn't miss anything at Millennium in the blissful presence of the lord. If you read Sophia Collier's book 'Soul Rush' she says Guru Maharaj Ji was so drunk that he could hardly get up on stage and blather his platitudes. Some day an archeologist will uncover a petrified Millennium candy bar and find it tastes just the same as it did 10,000 years eariler when it was made, such is the grace of the lord. We also sold flowers on the street to raise money, mostly for some extravagant luxury the lord wanted, like a new plane, or some fancy car. The moonies had nothing on us in that department!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 00:19:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Paul Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: I didn't stay at the Peace Plant (wasn't it an old Coca-Cola plant or something?), but I had friends that did, and I remember being really jealous of them because they were in the 'in crowd'! Can you imagine? I felt really out of it because I had to stay in a motel. So in an effort to fit in, I volunteered to do WPC service, which was dreadful. I worked directing people in the dining hall all day, and guarded (ha ha) a door on the upper level of the Astrodome during the evening program (at least it wasn't a piece of cheese!) I can't believe that I actually paid money to get to do this, but I did. By the way, the stories about Joy's bracelets and your ring were heart-wrenching. I thought you were supposed to give away things in the darshan line that were important to you, so I (stupidly) gave things that had great sentimental value to me, but were materially valueless, and they probably just got thrown in the trash. I never heard about the PBS documentary on Millenium - would be interested to hear more. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 01:31:53 (EST)
Poster: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Hi Jim, What a stunning piece! Your letter is an amazing testimony that really applies to all of us. Namely, we all have a sincere desire to know God, the problem is that there are just too many false teachers who can say half the right things and deceive us. Wow! If you ever want to share the real Word of God let me know. In reading through all the posts on this subject, something just came to me and I don't know if this has ever been discussed on this forum. Why not bring a class action suit against m? Would that be possible? I read about all these nice people who have given their last rings, or their last bracelets, etc. You could create a class action suit, claiming that m had actually entered into a contract with all of you, and as such there were specific performances that should have been lived up to. ???? Think about the publicity. Thanks again for sharing. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 01:31:57 (EST)
Poster: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Here it is: Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Hi Jim, What a stunning piece! Your letter is an amazing testimony that really applies to all of us. Namely, we all have a sincere desire to know God, the problem is that there are just too many false teachers who can say half the right things and deceive us. Wow! If you ever want to share the real Word of God let me know. In reading through all the posts on this subject, something just came to me and I don't know if this has ever been discussed on this forum. Why not bring a class action suit against m? Would that be possible? I read about all these nice people who have given their last rings, or their last bracelets, etc. You could create a class action suit, claiming that m had actually entered into a contract with all of you, and as such there were specific performances that should have been lived up to. ???? Think about the publicity. Thanks again for sharing. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 18:18:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: gumby Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Dearest Gumby, Thank you for your kind comments on my former slavish devotion. I'm not sure I agree with your inference. I don't think the letter shows we all want to know God so much as it shows we all can be seduced by people who promise to free us from the struggles and uncertainties of life. A class action suit against Maharaji wouldn't work, I don't think, for a number of reasons. Time, proof, religious freedom defences, that kind of thing. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 23:50:03 (EST)
Poster: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Jim's Millenium Letter (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: Hi Jim, You wrote: Thank you for your kind comments on my former slavish devotion. I'm not sure I agree with your inference. I don't think the letter shows we all want to know God so much as it shows we all can be seduced by people who promise to free us from the struggles and uncertainties of life. Your welcome! So am I to infer that the only reason you followed m was on a promise that he would free you from struggles and uncertainties in life? How long were you camping at his doorstep? A class action suit against Maharaji wouldn't work, I don't think, for a number of reasons. Time, proof, religious freedom defences, that kind of thing. I'm not saying it would be easy, but you of anyone would have the skills and the expertise. Maybe you could get him engaged to the point where you would be a pain, and that alone might cause him to look bad. I'm not a lawyer I don't know all the angles. Maybe small claims court, can you imagine if 1000 people took him to small claims court? Grace and God be with you, brother gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 00:39:18 (EST)
Poster: satguroovy Email: *.* To: Here it is: Subject: Jim's Millenium (Re: COME TO THE ASTRODOME - NOV. 8, 9, 10!!) Message: WOW that's a hell of a trip down memory lane. Thanks again Jimbo. Your satsang is endless, halarious, and helpful. I'll thank god for you since you won't have anything to do with mr. Amazing in the religious context. Did you notice that rawat is an athiest too? Just him, the god-incarnate, and the infinite nothing. Romans wanted to be worshipped as god's after thier deaths, temples and holidays and all. rawat would like history to view him that way also. At least the resource here will be a permanent block to any real widespread adoption of maharajianity as the premier religion in the west in the future. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 20:14:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: So what, if anything, does Les exemplify? Was anyone really surprised to see him abandon rational discourse as quickly and completely as he did? Really. Sometimes, talking with premies reminds me of some science fiction flick like 'Invaders of the Body Snatchers.' Or maybe 'Mars Attacks.' They come in all styles (the premies do). Inane smiley-faces like Chris, crass 'wild and crazy' guys from Zagreb like Mili, smooth bullshitters from the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji like OP and arrogant know-nothings like A Premie, Aesop or Student who are interesting more for their jaw-dropping self-righteousness than anything else. Les was one of those. Remember how determined he was to earn a little respect here? No one would ever be able to accuse Les of cutting corners or anything of the like. Yet how little did it take for that entire veneer to strip off and for the true brain-washed cult victim to show his true colours? 'A warning to fellow premies - even talking with these guys might get you to think!' Too bad no one warned Les first. Who knows if he'll ever be able to rid himself of the doubts he admits were seeded here? Poor guy, huh? Les was candid about a few things. One is that he yearns for eternal life which neither Dawkins nor Gould seem to offer. I thank the Guru Papers for spelling out so clearly how cults dangle this bauble, this relief against the inevitable. No wonder Les knows absolutely nothing about evolution (in spite of his overwrought jerry-rigged jargon). Evolution reminds us that, nice as it is to be here, we weren't the first and we won't be the last. And, apparently, much as we'd love it otherwise, the universe isn't a packrat. Les isn't the first premie who's argued that he can't possibly discuss Maharaji directly: I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. No, Les, it's not lengthier answers we need. This isn't satsang, fella. What we're looking for are honest answers. Oh well. Les, also gives a wonderfully whacked version of Maharaji's valiant 'cultural revolution': My entrance into the on-going discussions at this site probably was not done with adequate preparation. For one thing, I didn’t realize how many of its participants were disenfranchised ashram and Divine Light Mission premies. I don’t know if you were around when all that was going on, but it was crazy. The premies built up a religion faster than you could say bole shri. It had such momentum even God could not have stopped it without causing all the premies to go flying off the platform. But when things had gotten stale, and when Maharaji was strong enough, he stopped it cold. Assuming he really believes such drivel, I can see why Les didn't want to explain Maharaji saying: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? (An aside, my sources tell me that Tina Brown's gone Clinton sex scandal crazy and that's why the Anderson article got bumped again. Keep your spirits up, Maharaji, you'll see your name in heathen ink again before too long.) Les also revealed the real problem people in the cult having seeing past Maharaji, the sense that their 'experience' validates their faith: Besides, it usually seems like no one understands what’s said anyway. Why else would Jim have asked me once after I described the merging experience I love so much, how I knew I wasn’t just “thinking” I’d had such experiences; in other words, was I deluding myself. I believe I answered by saying he was revealing how little he knew about merging. I said that because if one knows what merging is, then one also knows that the mind is still then. How can one think something to the point of delusion if one isn’t even thinking? I mean, that’s the whole fun of the experience—the utter stillness, richness and unity of it compared to the incessantly moving and aggregate way consciousness normally functions. Like Bobby before with his impenetrable NDE's, Les and his fellow premies are content to enjoy meditation with ALL of the pre-scientific Hindu trappings imaginable. Kali Yuga? Why not? Re-incarnation? Hey, sounds good to me! What about the truth? Who cares? This just feels SO good! If only Maharaji really was the Lord, we could have stayed as children and left the thinking to him. What's so insidious is that he's kept his premies in that same thoughtless zone, unable to really make their way through the world, even while pretending to set them free to grow into adults. Les, if you're reading this, I know those doubts won't ever leave you. You're infected, Bud. Yes, you're right, you never should have come here. For before your brief sojourn in the land of disenfranchised DLM party cadres, where we sit in ramshackle cafes, smoking more cigarettes than Scientologists, where our brows are always furrowed and mouths downturned, where our only laughs are brief, cruel shards of broken glass as opposed to the heartfelt joy of devotion, before all that, Les, you actually thought you were strong enough to have it all. You THOUGHT you could think and talk like an adult and be treated accordingly. Indeed, your firsts posts here got you exactly that respect. How sad now to see that Maharaji doesn't translate well into reality. Good luck, Les, and thanks again for the warning. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 20:24:16 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: To Jim and all: I just can't get past the fact that premies are no longer allowed to give satsang! How strict is this rule and isn't that what they are doing in effect here on the forum. If so than how does that fit into the devotional image they hold of themselves. How can anyone be sucked in knowing you aren't even supposed to discuss anything with each other or non-premies to lure them in. I just don't see the logic M is using here. He is just illustrating that he is less confident in his premies now than he ever was. Premies, how does that demotion feel? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 07:38:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Robyn Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: I just can't get past the fact that premies are no longer allowed to give satsang! How strict is this rule and isn't that what they are doing in effect here on the forum. It's apparently one that they adhere to without question. The great taboo - talking about your own experience as if you actually had one of your own, rather than MJ's experience by proxy. Come! Hear him talk on TV about what I feel! How can anyone be sucked in knowing you aren't even supposed to discuss anything with each other or non-premies to lure them in. This amazes me too. What a bland, tasteless carrot they are being offered. The important part in offering the carrot, of course, is that the jackasses continue to pull the cart the fat man rides in. I just don't see the logic M is using here. He is just illustrating that he is less confident in his premies now than he ever was. I think you just answered your own question, Robyn. That's exactly what it means. And anyone who would go along with a policy that defined their life as not being theirs to talk about has to be just as stupid as MJ thinks they are. Premies, how does that demotion feel? Bet this one goes unanswered. Perhaps MJ will expound upon this for them. Then they'll have something that they can feel safe saying. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:26:43 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: I think that one valuable thing that Les had to say was that he himself could have doubts (I believe he called them 'mirrored' from this site, but doubts none-the-less) And 'danger here for premies' was a telling little tidbit. Secondly, I thought his interpretation of Maharaji's 'right turn' in his final post to Mili was interesting. I would have called that a 180 degree turn myself. I think he failed to explain to Mili that M said he was God, and then said that he wasn't. Jim, sometimes the questions that remain unanswered on this forum speak volumes louder than any answer could ever give. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 10:32:07 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Brian, How can a person being 'courted' by M and his video persona ever make that leap of faith. There must be some really gullable people out there. I always considered myself to be extremely gullable especially back when I was getting into this whole guru thing but without that human element I honesty don't think they'd have gotten me. Truth be told it was totally that human element that got me involved. I met this man where I worked, he was very handsome and spoke of M. I got K and we eventually had a relationship and a baby. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 18:10:16 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Jim, regarding the New Yorker article, did they give you any indication when it might run, or is it still up in the air? Speaking of the Clinton sex scandal, I thought the New Yorker's article last week on Linda Tripp was quite revealing and well done, although Kurt didn't write it. Talk about the co-worker from hell!!! I hope the Maharaji article is as incisive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 18:26:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re New Yorker (Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us?) Message: Jim, regarding the New Yorker article, did they give you any indication when it might run, or is it still up in the air? Speaking of the Clinton sex scandal, I thought the New Yorker's article last week on Linda Tripp was quite revealing and well done, although Kurt didn't write it. Talk about the co-worker from hell!!! I hope the Maharaji article is as incisive. The New Yorker told me only that 'they like the story' and 'haven't killed it or anything' but booted it out of the last two issues b/c ... well, they didn't say, but this friend of mine, who's a writer for GQ and knows all those guys said it was probably b/c of Tina Brown's great interest in affairs of state. So, no idea really. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 18:28:10 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Just got my system up and running again and looked at the archives to see the fallout from my last post. It's quite shocking. It's shocking how desperate ex's are to prove their points, and the measures used to do so! Sooooooooo, as I am not desperate to prove anything to you folks or have the time to waste on it, I'll take my leave. Just a parting shot to Jim. Jim you're one of the biggest assholes in cyberspace today. Too bad I wasted so much time talking to you. I really hope someday we meet so you can get to test your theories about being in the same room with me. As for the rest of you - you must grieve, I understand. You must get angry, I understand. And you must go through the process... so good luck. But if you think you must also be the harbingers of truth, you are just as big suckers as you claim us to be. Truth will always speak for itself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 18:51:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Just got my system up and running again and looked at the archives to see the fallout from my last post. It's quite shocking. It's shocking how desperate ex's are to prove their points, and the measures used to do so! Sooooooooo, as I am not desperate to prove anything to you folks or have the time to waste on it, I'll take my leave. Just a parting shot to Jim. Jim you're one of the biggest assholes in cyberspace today. Too bad I wasted so much time talking to you. I really hope someday we meet so you can get to test your theories about being in the same room with me. As for the rest of you - you must grieve, I understand. You must get angry, I understand. And you must go through the process... so good luck. But if you think you must also be the harbingers of truth, you are just as big suckers as you claim us to be. Truth will always speak for itself. Aesop, It doesn't matter so much that people are 'desperate' to prove their points. What matters is whether their points are true. Really, dude, for someone who's taken on such a 'wise' pseudonym, you really fall short, don't you? Listen, if you want to threaten me, you can do better than that. I'm not hiding. You want to come and share some more of your 'wisdom' I'd love to meet you. Just leave Mahatma Fakiranand outside, will ya? A final note to you, Aseop. The truth does not speak for itself. Anymore than lies do. But I guess that's just another empty saying, huh? Keep up the good work wherever you go. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 19:24:12 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Just got my system up and running again and looked at the archives to see the fallout from my last post. It's quite shocking. It's shocking how desperate ex's are to prove their points, and the measures used to do so! Sooooooooo, as I am not desperate to prove anything to you folks or have the time to waste on it, I'll take my leave. Just a parting shot to Jim. Jim you're one of the biggest assholes in cyberspace today. Too bad I wasted so much time talking to you. I really hope someday we meet so you can get to test your theories about being in the same room with me. As for the rest of you - you must grieve, I understand. You must get angry, I understand. And you must go through the process... so good luck. But if you think you must also be the harbingers of truth, you are just as big suckers as you claim us to be. Truth will always speak for itself. Hey, Aesop, if you come back will you be 'Aesop,' 'A Premie,' or use yet another name? Of course, whoever you are, you can continue to make threats in complete anonymity. Now that REALLY takes courage and a conviction in the truth of your beliefs! And I don't know of anyone around here who is 'grieving' so you don't need to take time from meditation, or kissing your lord's feet to worry your little head about that. For the most part, I think most of us are having a great time. You see, Aesop, this can be REALLY fun! Maybe not for you, but for a lot of us it really is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 19:34:50 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: JW and Jim Subject: The premies are bailing (Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us?) Message: Men (or women?) overboard! The titanic is looking pretty tame right about now. When reason and cults collide someone is going to end up in the cold water... Well, you know what my mama always said? 'If you can't run with the big dogs, get off the porch!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 21:40:46 (EST)
Poster: BC Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: So what, if anything, does Les exemplify? Was anyone really surprised to see him abandon rational discourse as quickly and completely as he did? Really. Sometimes, talking with premies reminds me of some science fiction flick like 'Invaders of the Body Snatchers.' Or maybe 'Mars Attacks.' They come in all styles (the premies do). Inane smiley-faces like Chris, crass 'wild and crazy' guys from Zagreb like Mili, smooth bullshitters from the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji like OP and arrogant know-nothings like A Premie, Aesop or Student who are interesting more for their jaw-dropping self-righteousness than anything else. Les was one of those. Remember how determined he was to earn a little respect here? No one would ever be able to accuse Les of cutting corners or anything of the like. Yet how little did it take for that entire veneer to strip off and for the true brain-washed cult victim to show his true colours? 'A warning to fellow premies - even talking with these guys might get you to think!' Too bad no one warned Les first. Who knows if he'll ever be able to rid himself of the doubts he admits were seeded here? Poor guy, huh? Les was candid about a few things. One is that he yearns for eternal life which neither Dawkins nor Gould seem to offer. I thank the Guru Papers for spelling out so clearly how cults dangle this bauble, this relief against the inevitable. No wonder Les knows absolutely nothing about evolution (in spite of his overwrought jerry-rigged jargon). Evolution reminds us that, nice as it is to be here, we weren't the first and we won't be the last. And, apparently, much as we'd love it otherwise, the universe isn't a packrat. Les isn't the first premie who's argued that he can't possibly discuss Maharaji directly: I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. No, Les, it's not lengthier answers we need. This isn't satsang, fella. What we're looking for are honest answers. Oh well. Les, also gives a wonderfully whacked version of Maharaji's valiant 'cultural revolution': My entrance into the on-going discussions at this site probably was not done with adequate preparation. For one thing, I didn’t realize how many of its participants were disenfranchised ashram and Divine Light Mission premies. I don’t know if you were around when all that was going on, but it was crazy. The premies built up a religion faster than you could say bole shri. It had such momentum even God could not have stopped it without causing all the premies to go flying off the platform. But when things had gotten stale, and when Maharaji was strong enough, he stopped it cold. Assuming he really believes such drivel, I can see why Les didn't want to explain Maharaji saying: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? (An aside, my sources tell me that Tina Brown's gone Clinton sex scandal crazy and that's why the Anderson article got bumped again. Keep your spirits up, Maharaji, you'll see your name in heathen ink again before too long.) Les also revealed the real problem people in the cult having seeing past Maharaji, the sense that their 'experience' validates their faith: Besides, it usually seems like no one understands what’s said anyway. Why else would Jim have asked me once after I described the merging experience I love so much, how I knew I wasn’t just “thinking” I’d had such experiences; in other words, was I deluding myself. I believe I answered by saying he was revealing how little he knew about merging. I said that because if one knows what merging is, then one also knows that the mind is still then. How can one think something to the point of delusion if one isn’t even thinking? I mean, that’s the whole fun of the experience—the utter stillness, richness and unity of it compared to the incessantly moving and aggregate way consciousness normally functions. Like Bobby before with his impenetrable NDE's, Les and his fellow premies are content to enjoy meditation with ALL of the pre-scientific Hindu trappings imaginable. Kali Yuga? Why not? Re-incarnation? Hey, sounds good to me! What about the truth? Who cares? This just feels SO good! If only Maharaji really was the Lord, we could have stayed as children and left the thinking to him. What's so insidious is that he's kept his premies in that same thoughtless zone, unable to really make their way through the world, even while pretending to set them free to grow into adults. Les, if you're reading this, I know those doubts won't ever leave you. You're infected, Bud. Yes, you're right, you never should have come here. For before your brief sojourn in the land of disenfranchised DLM party cadres, where we sit in ramshackle cafes, smoking more cigarettes than Scientologists, where our brows are always furrowed and mouths downturned, where our only laughs are brief, cruel shards of broken glass as opposed to the heartfelt joy of devotion, before all that, Les, you actually thought you were strong enough to have it all. You THOUGHT you could think and talk like an adult and be treated accordingly. Indeed, your firsts posts here got you exactly that respect. How sad now to see that Maharaji doesn't translate well into reality. Good luck, Les, and thanks again for the warning. All of the ex-premies sound so angry-angry as they lost control when the ashrams were shut down? with all the changes that happened in the early days? A cult, I would have to disagree.....it's all about a feeling within us all-and for many years have enjoyed this and am thankful that I was shown how to access this feeling...it has made me and my family who have Knowledge much better human beings...no strings attached, no money involved-just showing the true meaning of LOVE...you can always come back-if you want to. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 22:06:37 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: BC Subject: Come back? (Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us?) Message: All of the ex-premies aren't angry. BC, when you have devoted your whole life, existence and everything that you have and that you are to someone proclaiming to be the Lord of the Universe and then this person tells you,'only kidding'-well, I think anger is understandable. I would also like to say that I don't think that EV and DLM are even the same in some ways. How can you go back to something that isn't even there anymore? Okay, the cult is still there and the devotion to M trip is still there. The programs are still there. I don't think the human element that Robyn was talking about is there anymore. No Satsang, no Perfect Master bringing the Word that Jesus taught, etc. Only videos. I think I'll have to pass on this one, BC, but enjoy yourself and thanks anyway. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 12:04:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: JW Subject: Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us? Message: Just got my system up and running again and looked at the archives to see the fallout from my last post. It's quite shocking. It's shocking how desperate ex's are to prove their points, and the measures used to do so! Sooooooooo, as I am not desperate to prove anything to you folks or have the time to waste on it, I'll take my leave. Just a parting shot to Jim. Jim you're one of the biggest assholes in cyberspace today. Too bad I wasted so much time talking to you. I really hope someday we meet so you can get to test your theories about being in the same room with me. As for the rest of you - you must grieve, I understand. You must get angry, I understand. And you must go through the process... so good luck. But if you think you must also be the harbingers of truth, you are just as big suckers as you claim us to be. Truth will always speak for itself. Hey, Aesop, if you come back will you be 'Aesop,' 'A Premie,' or use yet another name? Of course, whoever you are, you can continue to make threats in complete anonymity. Now that REALLY takes courage and a conviction in the truth of your beliefs! And I don't know of anyone around here who is 'grieving' so you don't need to take time from meditation, or kissing your lord's feet to worry your little head about that. For the most part, I think most of us are having a great time. You see, Aesop, this can be REALLY fun! Maybe not for you, but for a lot of us it really is. JW, This is dissappointing. You were much better with your rap on tolerance and civil rights, REALLY. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 17:45:45 (EST)
Poster: Reality check Email: To: VP Subject: Re: Come back? (Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us?) Message: All of the ex-premies aren't angry. BC, when you have devoted your whole life, existence and everything that you have and that you are to someone proclaiming to be the Lord of the Universe and then this person tells you,'only kidding'-well, I think anger is understandable. I would also like to say that I don't think that EV and DLM are even the same in some ways. How can you go back to something that isn't even there anymore? Okay, the cult is still there and the devotion to M trip is still there. The programs are still there. I don't think the human element that Robyn was talking about is there anymore. No Satsang, no Perfect Master bringing the Word that Jesus taught, etc. Only videos. I think I'll have to pass on this one, BC, but enjoy yourself and thanks anyway. Slight correction VP, he never said he was 'just kidding'. Those are words the 'ex's' (and you) are putting in his mouth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 26, 1998 at 20:17:15 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Reality check Subject: Re: Come back? (Re: What, if anything, has Les taught us?) Message: I stand corrected for my figure of speech (I put this in quotes because it was a figure of speech made by me). These may not have been M's exact words, but this is what it felt like. Happy to make this clarification. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:30:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Petrou says a lot -- can he back it up? Message: Over on Forum 3, Petrou said: I firmly believe that GMJ has developed ethical values and that we should not listen to slander. Why, Ptrou, do you firmly believe that? And just what ethical values to you attribute to this powerful personality? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:41:19 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Les' admission -- worth the wait Message: Below, in a post ostensibly to Mili but probably directed at least as much to me and anyone else following Les' and my 'discussion', Les admitted the real impact of this nascent colloquy: But I see real danger here for premies. I found that the process of me answering the questions and doubts raised here created a sort of “mirror image” of those doubts in my own mind. Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:57:39 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim & Less Subject: Dark molasses (Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait) Message: More or Less: Regarding: Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. I frankly don't understand this comment. I thought morass was the byproduct of sugar production. So, you say you don't like getting sticky? Me neither! I prefer dark morass on my pancakes, as opposed to wearing it. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:00:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Dark molasses (Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait) Message: More or Less: Regarding: Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. I frankly don't understand this comment. I thought morass was the byproduct of sugar production. So, you say you don't like getting sticky? Me neither! I prefer dark morass on my pancakes, as opposed to wearing it. -Scott No Scott, that's MORASSES. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:37:23 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Jim Subject: Lesson #1 - Don't think! (Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait) Message: I don't believe this! Les sounds just like some initiators used to sound back in the 70's. When they warned me against asking too many questions. 'Don't open the door to mind!' And the guru says it even today, 'Don't let confusion in!' Meaning, 'don't think about what I am saying!' What is going on here!? Do premies and the guru really think that the experience of your true self is not possible just because one does not want to pay homage to the guru? Because isn't that what all this boils down to anyway? I don't believe in the guru, and yet I am still able to experience my true self and my true relationship with the mystery of 'this life'! And I don't have to worry about getting asked questions which throw me into 'confusion' and 'doubt'. 'This Life' is really much simpler and easier WITHOUT the guru. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 16:59:42 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Dark molasses (Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait) Message: More or Less: Regarding: Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. I frankly don't understand this comment. I thought morass was the byproduct of sugar production. So, you say you don't like getting sticky? Me neither! I prefer dark morass on my pancakes, as opposed to wearing it. -Scott No Scott, that's MORASSES. Jim: In truth, it 'more asses.' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 17:03:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: It's more asses... (Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait) Message: Sorry about the typo. Can't wait to get Forum III up and running for good. I can hardly see these little tiny letters. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 20:00:24 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Les' admission -- worth the wait Message: Below, in a post ostensibly to Mili but probably directed at least as much to me and anyone else following Les' and my 'discussion', Les admitted the real impact of this nascent colloquy: But I see real danger here for premies. I found that the process of me answering the questions and doubts raised here created a sort of “mirror image” of those doubts in my own mind. Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. All I can say is bloody well spotted. It kind of saves a lot of pointless engagement with a mind incapable of logical discourse. Life for premies has many 'real dangers', of course, but talking to Jim is hardly the same as climbing K2 without oxygen (hmm... well...?) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 13:51:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Hey, Les, scared of our mind, are we? Message: Sorry for the repost, but this got buried down at the bottom of the page and I think it's worth noting the questions that Les chickened out of answering. Ugly, pompous cowardice. (Pompous, cowardly ugliness? Cowardly, ugly pompousness?): Jim, You’re wrong about me falling into the “smarter that Maharaji crowd.” For one thing, I don’t equate experience and intelligence, but also I never thought Maharaji was making a mistake. 1) What do you mean, 'equating experience and intelligence'? 2) Are you saying Maharaji CAN'T make mistakes? 3) If M can make mistakes, tell us some he's made over the many years you've known him? 4) How many years have you known him anyway? 5) Was Maharaji mistaken when, at 12 years old, he claimed that he was the Saviour of Mankind, come with more power than ever before, and promised that he would establish peace in the world? 6) Was Maharaji mistaken when he said that his mother and three brothers were 'fully realized'? At the time, I thought it possible that Maharaji was letting things burn out (besides waiting to understand what to do). 7) Who told you that? 8) How do you know it wasn't just your 'mind''s view of life? 9) Where would Maharaji get this 'understanding' he was waiting for? 10) Did he ever get it? 11) What was it? 12) How do you know? In any case, I didn’t know what to do about it either except to protect myself from premies. That’s not to say they didn’t need protection from me as well, I just didn’t want to get involved in any religious or guru trips. 13) Did you trust Maharaji? 14) Did you think Maharaji was 'working' through everyone, including premies? 15) What 'religious' trips were you avoiding? 16) What 'guru' trips were you avoiding? 17) Where'd did you learn that you had to watch out for yourself so closely? 18) Did you think that other premies who simply thought Maharaji would take care of things were naive? 19) What did Maharaji mean by 'never leave room for doubt in your mind'? 20) What did he mean by 'always have faith in God'? You don’t have to quote Maharaji to me, I know what he said (not every word of course), and I don’t have a problem with his statements. 21) Why did Maharaji claim he was God? 22) Why did Maharaji say: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 23) Why did Maharaji say: Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 24) Why did Maharaji say: I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? And not because of blind, stupid faith, but because I believe I understand them. 25) How do you know what Maharaji means? 26) Have you ever been wrong in understanding him? 27) Have other premies ever misunderstood him? You accuse me of being shallow (at another threadsite) but your interpretation of Maharaji’s statements show someone obsessed with surface matters—short thoughts. 28) Can you turn me on to a good psychiatrist? It would be ironic for a person impressed by evolution (as you’ve indicated) not to notice the often chaotic elements of nature evolution consistently works with and through to achieve its stunning goals. 29) How familiar are you with modern evolutionary theory? 30) How about evolutionary psychology? 31) What books have you read in the area? Why isn’t it possible, then, for the force of evolution to manifest through a human being, and to not concern itself with initial messes out of confidence that in the end evolutiveness will prevail? 32) Who said that particualr fantasy fo yours is impossible? 33) Is that what YOU believe? 34) If so, why? Are you freaked out at the casualties? 35) What's that supposed to mean? Have you noticed that whether its creator or mindless evolution that propels creation, casualties and death are part and parcel of it all? 36) Where do you see the work of a 'creator'? 37) Where do you see the work of 'mindless evolution'? [If you want to know if I'm aware of 'casualties' and death, I'd have to say yes, I'm aware of death and 'casualties'?.... I'm not sure what you're talking about.] When you communicate, I hear someone taking things personally that have nothing to do with you. 38) What do you mean? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:14:11 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, Les, scared of our mind, are we? Message: Jim, No, just turned off by yours. Farewell. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:21:27 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Les takes the high road (Re: Hey, Les, scared of our mind, are we?) Message: Jim, No, just turned off by yours. Farewell. Les, all my mind did was ask you some questions. Was there something unfair about a single one of them? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 11:54:19 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: God really IS love Message: With reference to posts by Les and Anon I have written this post. God is love. We are all accepted lovingly by Him. The following is Debbie's NDE. She is not a premie. Just an ordinary girl with imperfections and faults, like us all. Here is her account: I was standing on the edge of the tunnel. I looked down and saw a beautiful blue-green river. Suddenly, I heard a familiar voice. ' Go back Debbie, it's not your time yet!'. I immediately recognized this voice as being of my great-grandfather Cecil Collins! He repeated this message several times. His voice came from across the river. Others who I cannot identify were also there waving and sending greetings. I knew they were my ancestors. Suddenly I looked up and saw a brighter light hovering above the waters. This light drew me upwards right out of the water into the 'sky'. Face to face with this light was an experience I shall never forget. This light was a person! I never saw a face however I had the knowledge or inner vision of a face. This face was smiling and very happy to see me. The peace was not to imagine. Then I knew what this person was saying: ' I Love You'. I looked behind me to see who this person was speaking to and then realized he was talking to me. I begged to stay there; pleading like a child to one's father. The person of light began to weep and without seeing his face I knew that he too was telling me that I had to return. Instantly I was back in the body I previously had seen laying on the bed. I did not 'wake up' as if I had been asleep. I was just there again. End of Debbie's account. Incidentally Brian, I can post a long message when I start a thread from the Unix operating system but the Lynx text browser doesn't allow for a very long reply to a message. For those who have access to Unix, the Forum and indeed whole of the web is MUCH faster to use in Unix. Whole web pages are imediately accessed and downloaded in one or two seconds, anywhere in the world. No pictures though, of course. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:44:24 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: David Subject: Re: God really IS love Message: David, What's with this UNIX thing? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:15:47 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Unix aspirant Subject: The Net is Unix - we're all one, brother (Re: God really IS love) Message: Unix is the operating system for most mainframe computers. The whole of the Internet uses Unix but is transfered into different systems when it is uploaded into file servers and PCs. My bulletin board system called CIX, which I can use to get onto the net, is using Unix. Unix feels a bit like Dos to work with and is text only, no graphics. I think when graphics are send across the net they are first tranfered into data which Unix can reckognise. When they are uploaded from Unix to a ISP or PC, the data is turned back into Windows/Mac friendly data. SInce the whole of the Internet runs on Unix, it is a lot faster getting round it using Unix, its base operating system. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 21:47:49 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Everyone Subject: For Jim and 'bill' Message: I thought about answering your questions -- I spent much of the weekend preparing a format in fact. But I’ve decided it will profit no one, and already I’m too distracted from my work. But possibly the following little story will give you an idea of one way I think of things, though it communicates little about what my experiences are. Maharaji recently said that not everyone can understand Knowledge. I think that’s true, and here’s why. It has taken the creationary reality that I believe is behind our universe fifteen billion years or so of evolution to bring things to this point; but it’s only been approximately the last three thousand years (that’s historically supportable anyway) that teachers have claimed the creator has joined with them for the purpose of revealing a new kind of consciousness -- oneness. Compared to fifteen billion years, that’s a drop in the bucket for evolution, and it’s not surprising (given the way evolution has always worked) that the new consciousness is very, very gradually being understood. The name given the teaching part of the creator, at one time and in one culture, was Maharaji, and the human counterpart teacher was, out of respect for the position, given that name too. When such “creationary teachers” come, there are those who want to learn the unified consciousness being taught because (setting the “feeling” of it aside here) it offers the opportunity of joining the oneness of the creator. There are others so attached to the composite awareness the brain and senses (CNS) provide, they either miss the oneness message altogether, or, sadly for them, may even go so far as to oppose it. They insist on evaluating the message and the teacher with composite consciousness and so, like a prism which cannot help but refract the light passing through it, miss the subtleties of oneness teaching again and again. The only people who know whether the creator and its teacher are “one” are those who actually realize oneness themselves, which is not easy. Until they do, devotees are still subject to the superstitiousness, conditioning, and unwarranted beliefs all humans are subject to. They do say stupid things, they do believe things they don’t know yet, they do act and speak foolishly sometimes (like everyone else). But they also have a secret which, if they persevere, will allow them to surpass all the dimwits who think themselves so smart, and who love to play devotees for fools. The composite brainslaves, stuck with fractions and pieces and disjoined views, cannot even imagine the tremendous conscious advantage of seeing, not thinking, the unity of things. Neither can they understand why the teacher’s oneness with the creationary reality might cause him to speak of it as though he were part of it. And incredibly, the times the creationary teacher refers to his unity with the creator, when he praises it, when he says it’s the greatest manifestation of God on the planet, and when he recommends complete trust in and total devotion to it, they think that he is calling his tiny, insignificant, quickly disappearing body and personality God!!!! If they don’t get that, forget them grasping the great difficulties of an effort to take oneness around the world for the first time. Anyone committed to staying so “gross,” as Jesus referred to it, is destined for that empty apartment of death awaiting everything else that’s too compressed and erratic to merge. In the past, when creatures failed to adapt, the creator/evolutionary impulse has let them become extinct, and of course each instant vast quantities of life come to an end on the planet, so the creator/evolutionary impulse apparently does not worry much about individuals’ cessation. And what are the devotee’s to do? Even if they love their stumbling comrades, it’s not worth risking personal failure by reaching out too far for those determined to die. Stay on target, stay on target, stay on target. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 22:00:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: How impressively rococo and empty (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, If I was less educated or younger, I might be impressed by your shiny little necklace of romantic sweet nothings. But, alas, I'm not. In fact, I can't get past the fact that you've broken your promise to answer my questions. 'It will profit no one' you say? I say you're less than honest with me, the crew here and probably yourself. You won't answer those questions because you can't. You lose, Lester. Both in substance and procedure, philosophy and integrity, you just look like another poseur. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 22:07:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Hey, this was supposed to be a reply to Les' post (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, I might add, arrogance in the world is usually tied to some strength or accomplishment. That's no excuse for a more gracious personality, but at least it's an explanation. 'Spiritual' arrogance, on the other hand, is bound only by the limits of one's own imagination. Your post below is one of the haughtiest bullshit screeds I've ever seen. Maharaji himself would probably ask himself ' where the hell did I pick up this pompous jerk?' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 23:39:06 (EST)
Poster: For less and student Email: *.* To: Les Subject: from composite man (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: I erased a lot of my post. I wonder if Student would agree with me that you are a perfect reflection of maharaji's present core beliefs. There is the master and there is the oneness. You are more frank in your dismissal of the natural wisdom of the masses of humanity than student is but you both show your distain. Somehow it still surprises me that Mili feels this way also. You and student say that one can just pose as the head of god on earth. That a self proclaimed master is real because you both truly don't believe there is a concious god beyond the limited perceptions of the self proclaimed master. You think it is just some personality-free energy that is waiting for you to just merge with it. I frankly think that student is a front for maharaji and I have decided that I want him to stay just as he is. This is my wish for the bookwriting Les and maharji/student ---Don't ever change. Stay as you are. You have it figured out. You are right. Thanks for showing up and all but I really don't want to play helper or ANYTHING to alter your present views. Please write your book. Please go talk to the Malasians. The opposeing of the glorious heroic false godhead will continue. Sorry. But it is right and just. goodbye, Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 23:44:12 (EST)
Poster: Saint Email: ** To: Jim Subject: James the athiest (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: its better that we aren't even in the same thread as these guys. we can thank paradise for that. my response to him also went up top. By the way, do you agree with me that student is maharaji? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:10:01 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How impressively rococo and empty (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, If I was less educated or younger, I might be impressed by your shiny little necklace of romantic sweet nothings. But, alas, I'm not. In fact, I can't get past the fact that you've broken your promise to answer my questions. 'It will profit no one' you say? I say you're less than honest with me, the crew here and probably yourself. You won't answer those questions because you can't. You lose, Lester. Both in substance and procedure, philosophy and integrity, you just look like another poseur. Jim, I answer, you ignore and pretend I don't, and then go on about the business of doubting. How does one get past such thickness? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:10:25 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Les Subject: Re: For Jim and 'bill' Message: Les: Regarding: Compared to fifteen billion years, that’s a drop in the bucket for evolution, and it’s not surprising (given the way evolution has always worked) that the new consciousness is very, very gradually being understood. Clearly then, one of the ways understanding works is to reject logic entirely. And that would lead us to: In the past, when creatures failed to adapt, the creator/evolutionary impulse has let them become extinct, and of course each instant vast quantities of life come to an end on the planet, so the creator/evolutionary impulse apparently does not worry much about individuals’ cessation. I beg you to consider the following by Hannah Arendt, for The Origins of Totalitarianism: 'Instead of saying that totalitarian government is unprecedented we could also say that it has exploded the very alternative on which all definitions of the essence of governments have been based in political philosophy, that is the alternative between lawful and lawless government, between arbitrary and legitimate power.... But it operates neither without guidance of law, nor is it arbitrary, for it claims to obey strictly and unequivocally those laws of Nature or of History from which all positive laws always have been supposed to spring It is the monstrous, yet seemingly unanswerable claim of totalitarian rule that, far from being 'lawless,' it goes to the sources of authority from which positive laws received their ultimate legitimation, that far from being arbitrary it is more obedient to these suprahuman forces than any government ever was before, and that far from wielding its power in the interest of one man, it is quite prepared to sacrifice everybody's vital immediate interests to the execution of what it assumes to be the law of History or the law of Nature.... The 'natural' law of survival of the fittest is just as much a historical law and could be used as such by racism as Marx's law of the survival of the most progressive class... If it is the law of nature to eliminate everything that is harmful and unfit to live, it would mean the end of nature itself if new categories of the harmful and unfit-to-live could not be found... In other words, the law of killing by which totalitarian movements seize and exercise power would remain a law of the movement even if they ever succeeded in making all of humanity subject to their rule. By pressing men against each other, total terror destroys the space between them; compared to the condition within its iron band, even the desert of tyranny, insofar as it is still some kind of space, appears like a guarantee of freedom.' I think your vision may have a flaw, or two,... or three. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, this was supposed to be a reply to Les' post (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, I might add, arrogance in the world is usually tied to some strength or accomplishment. That's no excuse for a more gracious personality, but at least it's an explanation. 'Spiritual' arrogance, on the other hand, is bound only by the limits of one's own imagination. Your post below is one of the haughtiest bullshit screeds I've ever seen. Maharaji himself would probably ask himself ' where the hell did I pick up this pompous jerk?' Jim, Why don't you just take it? You wiggle too much. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:28:28 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re:Totality (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les: Regarding: Compared to fifteen billion years, that’s a drop in the bucket for evolution, and it’s not surprising (given the way evolution has always worked) that the new consciousness is very, very gradually being understood. Clearly then, one of the ways understanding works is to reject logic entirely. And that would lead us to: In the past, when creatures failed to adapt, the creator/evolutionary impulse has let them become extinct, and of course each instant vast quantities of life come to an end on the planet, so the creator/evolutionary impulse apparently does not worry much about individuals’ cessation. I beg you to consider the following by Hannah Arendt, for The Origins of Totalitarianism: 'Instead of saying that totalitarian government is unprecedented we could also say that it has exploded the very alternative on which all definitions of the essence of governments have been based in political philosophy, that is the alternative between lawful and lawless government, between arbitrary and legitimate power.... But it operates neither without guidance of law, nor is it arbitrary, for it claims to obey strictly and unequivocally those laws of Nature or of History from which all positive laws always have been supposed to spring It is the monstrous, yet seemingly unanswerable claim of totalitarian rule that, far from being 'lawless,' it goes to the sources of authority from which positive laws received their ultimate legitimation, that far from being arbitrary it is more obedient to these suprahuman forces than any government ever was before, and that far from wielding its power in the interest of one man, it is quite prepared to sacrifice everybody's vital immediate interests to the execution of what it assumes to be the law of History or the law of Nature.... The 'natural' law of survival of the fittest is just as much a historical law and could be used as such by racism as Marx's law of the survival of the most progressive class... If it is the law of nature to eliminate everything that is harmful and unfit to live, it would mean the end of nature itself if new categories of the harmful and unfit-to-live could not be found... In other words, the law of killing by which totalitarian movements seize and exercise power would remain a law of the movement even if they ever succeeded in making all of humanity subject to their rule. By pressing men against each other, total terror destroys the space between them; compared to the condition within its iron band, even the desert of tyranny, insofar as it is still some kind of space, appears like a guarantee of freedom.' I think your vision may have a flaw, or two,... or three. -Scott Scott, Can't you separate from the shallowness of politics from the significance of existence? Jesus man, you all act like you have nothing to lose. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:35:44 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: For less and student Subject: Re: from composite man (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: I erased a lot of my post. I wonder if Student would agree with me that you are a perfect reflection of maharaji's present core beliefs. There is the master and there is the oneness. You are more frank in your dismissal of the natural wisdom of the masses of humanity than student is but you both show your distain. Somehow it still surprises me that Mili feels this way also. You and student say that one can just pose as the head of god on earth. That a self proclaimed master is real because you both truly don't believe there is a concious god beyond the limited perceptions of the self proclaimed master. You think it is just some personality-free energy that is waiting for you to just merge with it. I frankly think that student is a front for maharaji and I have decided that I want him to stay just as he is. This is my wish for the bookwriting Les and maharji/student ---Don't ever change. Stay as you are. You have it figured out. You are right. Thanks for showing up and all but I really don't want to play helper or ANYTHING to alter your present views. Please write your book. Please go talk to the Malasians. The opposeing of the glorious heroic false godhead will continue. Sorry. But it is right and just. goodbye, To Whom IT May Concern: Do you think I speak of oneness only as a theory? It can be done, you can find out, why argue theoretically? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:38:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Les Subject: Re:Totality (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les: Regarding: Can't you separate from the shallowness of politics from the significance of existence? Jesus man, you all act like you have nothing to lose. You don't get it. Totalitarianism isn't politics, it's 'the significance of existence.' Jesus man, you act like God has something to lose. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:50:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Les Subject: Re: Hey, this was supposed to be a reply to Les' post (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, you were set up from the beginning. Jim was a fanatic for Maharaji while he was a follower, and now he is the same kind of fanatic against him. Whatever you might have replied was destined to receieve the same treatment. Fortunately, there are still some people, like Scott or JW and others here who have retained their humanness, and are capable of having a decent conversation with. I strongly recommend that you ignore the obssesive-compulsive fanatics, anonymouses and other bizzare species and talk with the normal people. However, there's not much to talk about, is there? - everyone has had their own experiences, whether for good or bad, and it's not really right to pass general judgements about them. Anyway, have fun! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 04:41:32 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Les Subject: Re: For Jim and 'bill' Message: Re:Anyone committed to staying so “gross,” as Jesus referred to it, is destined for that empty apartment of death awaiting everything else that’s too compressed and erratic to merge. etc etc etc. Les, I believe that what you say is almost entirely wishfull-thinking and frankly, rather nasty nonsense. Do you tell your kids nasty stories at night too so as they will get nightmares? Well then. Can't you see that your version of things is chock full of intimidating concepts. How can one take seriously such rhetoric which clearly attempts to coerce through fear and not through love or inspiration? I believe that you yourself must undoubtedly be a slave to the fearful concepts you spout doomsdaylike to all. All this talk can have little foundation in reality, love or truth and represents a divisive belief system on the face of it. Your description of things smacks of the repressive religious models of the universe as touted by generations of believers whose contented countenances were often more the result of smugness than beatific vision. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 05:52:37 (EST)
Poster: Mother Theresa Email: bill burke To: Les Subject: To the lord and Les (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: No arguement! You are correct! All success to the lord master and his echoes! The way things are is just as you say! Thank you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 06:06:37 (EST)
Poster: March of the Email: *.* To: Les Subject: Merged (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: You and Student are Light in the darkness! Go forth and propagate! The personalityless energy will blot out those confused beings that are here on this website! Feel The Breath! Stay One! Time for a Video! By Feeling Your Breath You are part of the Infinite! You ARE the infinite! The great personality free thingee Awaits! You Are He! Take Mili and CD and Create The Heaven of Merged One's! Nothing Can Stop You! Let The March Of The Hero's Begin! Onward! Outward! Away! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 10:13:07 (EST)
Poster: Niggle Email: longhun@livhope.ac.uk To: Les Subject: Re: For Jim and 'bill' Message: fifteen billion years or so of evolution <\i> Where did you get that from? Life has been around for about three and a half billion years. It has about another 3 - 4 billion years to run, then it will be curtains for everybody. So we're about half way through right now. Natural selection makes all concepts of creative intelligence unnecessary for explaining change in the structure of organisms. Your theoretical viewpoint can thus only be described as The Argument from Accepted Theology. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 10:19:42 (EST)
Poster: Niggle Email: niggle@livhope.ac.uk To: Niggle Subject: Re: For Jim and 'bill' Message: fifteen billion years or so of evolution <\i> Where did you get that from? Life has been around for about three and a half billion years. It has about another 3 - 4 billion years to run, then it will be curtains for everybody. So we're about half way through right now. Natural selection makes all concepts of creative intelligence unnecessary for explaining change in the structure of organisms. Your theoretical viewpoint can thus only be described as The Argument from Accepted Theology. Sorry, I messed up the italics on that last one. Only 'fifteen billion years or so of evolution' should have been the quote. The rest was mine. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:32:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Hey, this was supposed to be a reply to Les' post (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, Why don't you just take it? You wiggle too much. If you can't answer my questions, be honest about it. Otherwise, I'll consider you just another premie incapable of communication. Join the ranks of the other cowards, Les? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:35:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: How impressively rococo and empty (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, If I was less educated or younger, I might be impressed by your shiny little necklace of romantic sweet nothings. But, alas, I'm not. In fact, I can't get past the fact that you've broken your promise to answer my questions. 'It will profit no one' you say? I say you're less than honest with me, the crew here and probably yourself. You won't answer those questions because you can't. You lose, Lester. Both in substance and procedure, philosophy and integrity, you just look like another poseur. Jim, I answer, you ignore and pretend I don't, and then go on about the business of doubting. How does one get past such thickness? Les, You're really being unimaginably deceitful here, aren't you, premie ji? I asked you some questions. Remember? You said you'd answer them and then you said you wouldn't. Now you say you did. What utter bullshit. Les, answer the questions or admit that you can't. Don't give me this kind of garbage answer again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: For Anon (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Re:Anyone committed to staying so “gross,” as Jesus referred to it, is destined for that empty apartment of death awaiting everything else that’s too compressed and erratic to merge. etc etc etc. Les, I believe that what you say is almost entirely wishfull-thinking and frankly, rather nasty nonsense. Do you tell your kids nasty stories at night too so as they will get nightmares? Well then. Can't you see that your version of things is chock full of intimidating concepts. How can one take seriously such rhetoric which clearly attempts to coerce through fear and not through love or inspiration? I believe that you yourself must undoubtedly be a slave to the fearful concepts you spout doomsdaylike to all. All this talk can have little foundation in reality, love or truth and represents a divisive belief system on the face of it. Your description of things smacks of the repressive religious models of the universe as touted by generations of believers whose contented countenances were often more the result of smugness than beatific vision. Anon, I said nothing new. Every being now alive will die. It's not my doing. But who else can offer uninteruptted life but the creator? And then, do you say, 'Me, and my way' or do you say 'your way'? I simply can't see how our tiny little brains can grasp it -- the creator is too evolved, too powerful, and too conscious to approach unless one listens and follows exactly. Was I hard? Well it just came out and I went along with it. Is this creation hard on those who don't realize the purpose behind it? Just look for yourself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:52:14 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Niggle Subject: Re: 15 billion (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: fifteen billion years or so of evolution <\i> Where did you get that from? Life has been around for about three and a half billion years. It has about another 3 - 4 billion years to run, then it will be curtains for everybody. So we're about half way through right now. Natural selection makes all concepts of creative intelligence unnecessary for explaining change in the structure of organisms. Your theoretical viewpoint can thus only be described as The Argument from Accepted Theology. Sorry, I messed up the italics on that last one. Only 'fifteen billion years or so of evolution' should have been the quote. The rest was mine. Niggle, I was referring to the estimated age of the universe. Even according to your theory the universe had to be in place before life could have evolved. However, there is one BIG flaw in natural selection that prevents it from accounting for creation if you are going to keep the creator out of it. Since life, according to the accidental evolution theory, must have spontaneously emerged from the chemical soup of early Earth's oceans, exactly what physical principle causes that? If you're going to build the whole of creation on the potential of matter to self-organize -- creatively self organize too, not just the mechanomorphic reactiveness expected from matter (as in polymers, catalytic reactions, etc.) -- hadn't you better first prove matter is capable of such things? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 13:01:09 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re:Blind as a bat (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, Why don't you just take it? You wiggle too much. If you can't answer my questions, be honest about it. Otherwise, I'll consider you just another premie incapable of communication. Join the ranks of the other cowards, Les? Jim, I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 13:11:21 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: March of the Subject: Re: Merged Poet (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: You and Student are Light in the darkness! Go forth and propagate! The personalityless energy will blot out those confused beings that are here on this website! Feel The Breath! Stay One! Time for a Video! By Feeling Your Breath You are part of the Infinite! You ARE the infinite! The great personality free thingee Awaits! You Are He! Take Mili and CD and Create The Heaven of Merged One's! Nothing Can Stop You! Let The March Of The Hero's Begin! Onward! Outward! Away! Poet, I don't know what to say to you, I'm just trying answer all these posts. But I did not say that the creator is personalityless energy. I don't think so personally, I can't see how it could be like that. I was talking about nature, which creation has emerged through, and it does seem to be both uncaring (or neutral anyway) and fairly automatic. The 'evolutive impulse' that seems to drive nature may be the way the creator maintains creation, but I don't believe the creator is involved in the details of creation any longer. I think the creator's involvement in creation is focused primarily on one place -- Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 13:16:02 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re:UnTotality (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les: Regarding: Can't you separate from the shallowness of politics from the significance of existence? Jesus man, you all act like you have nothing to lose. You don't get it. Totalitarianism isn't politics, it's 'the significance of existence.' Jesus man, you act like God has something to lose. -Scott Scott, I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 13:35:31 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, this was supposed to be a reply to Les' post (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Les, Let me tell you a few things about Jim. He is a lawyer. He also likes to take psychedelic mushrooms and wash them down with tequila. Then he goes to the local bars and plays punk rock with his band of other 50-yr olds. So, you see, he is an example of what happens to lawyers on 'shrooms. Jim likes to be in control and 'call the shots' and couldn't care less what you reply to his questions - you are guilty and going to jail anyhow. If you do not answer to his liking, he intimidates you with taunts like 'coward, idiot', etc. Actually, he is the one who is a paranoid coward. He thinks Maharaji is some kind of sinister cult leader who is going to hypnotize him and take all his money away. X-files stuff? You bet. That's why Jim is the original X-premie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:00:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re:Blind as a bat (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, Why don't you just take it? You wiggle too much. If you can't answer my questions, be honest about it. Otherwise, I'll consider you just another premie incapable of communication. Join the ranks of the other cowards, Les? Jim, I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. Les, You are unscrupulous. You did NOT answer my questions. You just talked at the subject matter. Your 'interpretative dance' in which you heroically express the wonders of the universe and the orgasm of cult consciousness is well and good. (Frankly, I enjoyed it and even told my girlfriend that that's probably how I would have sounded back in my cult days). But your little word dance is not a RESPONSIVE answer to anything. Try again. Look, I'm wrong. Your little dance is indeed an answer to this questions which, for me anyway, you can consider fully answered: What are your views about life, consciousness and human destiny? What do you think is the dilemna [assumed] concerning rational discussion about 'oneness', etc.? What should I do to prepare for death (or try to avoid it altogether)? These questions are nicely answered in your religious tract. Now, would you please answer MY questions? The ones you said you would? Fair is fair. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:43:30 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Les Subject: Re:Blind as a bat (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. Les, Since Jim has attained the status of lawyer he now always fancies himself attempting to win a case. He has become mature in his rationalizations. He now sees what a folly anything is without a precise explanation. Of course he may not have dined at the end of the universe just yet. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 14:59:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: CD Subject: Chris -- yet another dishonest coward (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. Les, Since Jim has attained the status of lawyer he now always fancies himself attempting to win a case. He has become mature in his rationalizations. He now sees what a folly anything is without a precise explanation. Of course he may not have dined at the end of the universe just yet. CD Chris, Having once fallen prey to Maharaji's words and promises, having based my life upon them to a large extent for a number of years, having realized that it's all a shell game and that his words are empty lies, I'm now quite wary of shadowy arguments that whisper their greatness but appear, for some strange reason, afraid of the light of day. You are no one to crticize, Chris. You've deflected any attempt at real communication people have offered you for over a year now. Your presence here is literally, by your own choice apparently, meaningless. Show me the scripture that says that truth comes only to those who agree to avoid rationality? You premies treat avoidance like it was one of the commandments, right after 'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' 'Avoid honest discussion.' Why are you here, Chris? See, you won't answer that. It's been asked before but it's a real question and you can't afford to be a real person here. You premies sicken me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:19:12 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: CD Subject: Re: for CD (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Jim, I maintain that I did answer you. If you have any interpretative skills at all, you should be able to get it. If you can't see what I've already said, why should I give you more. Maybe if you'd stop demanding everyone answer in ways that allow you to rip them apart you would get lengthier answers. Les, Since Jim has attained the status of lawyer he now always fancies himself attempting to win a case. He has become mature in his rationalizations. He now sees what a folly anything is without a precise explanation. Of course he may not have dined at the end of the universe just yet. CD CD, You see. Good luck and farewell. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 15:22:27 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Millie Gets the Last Message (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Mili, Thank you for the kind words before. What I said reflected only a moment of determination that was a bit on the angry side. It poured out, I thought about stopping it, but it seemed to have a will of its own. In truth I feel, inexplicably, real affection for all the people I’ve encountered here, including Jim. I invariably feel like I’m talking to premies rather than ex-premies (I’ll probably get blasted if any ex’s read that ) -- there always seems to be something special about everyone who’s ever loved Maharaji. My entrance into the on-going discussions at this site probably was not done with adequate preparation. For one thing, I didn’t realize how many of its participants were disenfranchised ashram and Divine Light Mission premies. I don’t know if you were around when all that was going on, but it was crazy. The premies built up a religion faster than you could say bole shri. It had such momentum even God could not have stopped it without causing all the premies to go flying off the platform. But when things had gotten stale, and when Maharaji was strong enough, he stopped it cold. I was at the Los Angeles program Maharaji held shortly after the ashrams were shut down. Former ashramites were freaked to say the least. In one poignant moment someone stood up and asked with sadness, “But why can’t we keep your pictures anymore, and why Maharaji can’t we love you anymore?” Maharaji answered, “I didn’t say you couldn’t keep pictures or love me anymore, I just don’t want to be worshipped.” Maharaji had made a “right turn” like he’d warned us so many times he might do. Some of us turned right with him, others did not. One reason, I believe, Maharaji made such radical changes was because of his mission to take Knowledge around the world. The more religious connotations attached to the message, the harder it is to take it to the great variety of cultures he’s aiming at. How is it going to work (and this happened to me many times) to tell interested people they don’t have join a religion to practice Knowledge, and then take them to an introductory program where everyone is acting religious? In India it may work, but a large part of the world’s population either belong to religions which make it sinful to check out other stuff, or are people who are disenchanted with religion. Maharaji’s desire to make it as neutral as possible was a brilliant and necessary communication move. This is my last day for posting. A friend allowed me to use his account to try out the internet, but the only thing really interesting to me were these discussions about Maharaji and Knowledge. But I see real danger here for premies. I found that the process of me answering the questions and doubts raised here created a sort of “mirror image” of those doubts in my own mind. Jim wonders why I don’t want to answer him point for point, but it’s to avoid the dark morass I believe he’s fallen into, and not cowardice, avoidance, or stupidity. Besides, it usually seems like no one understands what’s said anyway. Why else would Jim have asked me once after I described the merging experience I love so much, how I knew I wasn’t just “thinking” I’d had such experiences; in other words, was I deluding myself. I believe I answered by saying he was revealing how little he knew about merging. I said that because if one knows what merging is, then one also knows that the mind is still then. How can one think something to the point of delusion if one isn’t even thinking? I mean, that’s the whole fun of the experience—the utter stillness, richness and unity of it compared to the incessantly moving and aggregate way consciousness normally functions. Anyway, good luck to you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 17:35:18 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Les Subject: Re: For Anon (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: Re:Anyone committed to staying so “gross,” as Jesus referred to it, is destined for that empty apartment of death awaiting everything else that’s too compressed and erratic to merge. etc etc etc. Les, I believe that what you say is almost entirely wishfull-thinking and frankly, rather nasty nonsense. Do you tell your kids nasty stories at night too so as they will get nightmares? Well then. Can't you see that your version of things is chock full of intimidating concepts. How can one take seriously such rhetoric which clearly attempts to coerce through fear and not through love or inspiration? I believe that you yourself must undoubtedly be a slave to the fearful concepts you spout doomsdaylike to all. All this talk can have little foundation in reality, love or truth and represents a divisive belief system on the face of it. Your description of things smacks of the repressive religious models of the universe as touted by generations of believers whose contented countenances were often more the result of smugness than beatific vision. Anon, I said nothing new. Every being now alive will die. It's not my doing. But who else can offer uninteruptted life but the creator? And then, do you say, 'Me, and my way' or do you say 'your way'? I simply can't see how our tiny little brains can grasp it -- the creator is too evolved, too powerful, and too conscious to approach unless one listens and follows exactly. Was I hard? Well it just came out and I went along with it. Is this creation hard on those who don't realize the purpose behind it? Just look for yourself. Les, You begin by stating:'I said nothing new ' Is it not healthier to refrain from asserting beliefs about life that are second-hand or at least which cannot be proven or substantiated? I will only speak from my personal experience and I question the veracity especially of those who claim to have certain knowledge of a divine plan. You are however entitled to your beliefs. The fact that I am certain to die does not impress me to rush into some comforting belief. I would rather live in honest ignorance than that. Is this creation hard on those who don't realize the purpose behind it? Just look for yourself. From where I stand I see little evidence to suggest that the 'creator' is giving those who have certain 'realisations' an easier time than others. It is obvious that a wise/sensible person will better avoid some pitfalls than others but to suggest that the creator is hard on particularly wayward people is plainly not true. There are plenty of despicable and ignorant people on this planet whose life is relatively easy because of their abilities and skill at survival and getting what they want. Conversely there are many decent folk who are dealt a rough deal by fate. Anyway you say yourself that you 'simply can't see how our tiny little brains can grasp it' so why bother to illiterate such uncertain propositions as if they were pearls of wisdom? Isn't that rather irresponsible? You can't possibly really prove these things. I would urge you to desist this melodramatic tone which seems so righteous. I have been there. It is extremely ignoble to wield intimidating language as if it were a weapon of Truth. Nine times out of ten it is the resort of ignorant bullies who need to scare people into accepting their flimsy dogma. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 17:59:37 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Chris -- yet another dishonest coward (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: >Your presence here is literally, by your own choice apparently, meaningless. Jim, Perhaps to you and a few others. Certainly not to everyone. >'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' This is very common in books on success. For example 'Think and Grow Rich'. You are getting pretty good at twisting words and blowing virtual hot air. You even do a good job of pestering people away from this forum. Good work! >You premies sicken me. Too bad wimp! CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 24, 1998 at 18:55:14 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Les Subject: Re: Merged Poet (Re: For Jim and 'bill') Message: The creator's involvment in creation is focused primarily on one place -- Maharaji? What makes you so sure it isn't on that guy in Garland, Texas? I think that he has as much a claim to being Satguru as M! He says that God will look just like him! I don't think that you'll win many converts here, Les. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |