Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 10 | |
From: Mar 14, 1998 |
To: Mar 21, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 08:54:25 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset In 30 Minutes Message: Subject says it all :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 23:52:28 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Can it be this easy ? Message: Hi Everyone, I really haven't had any time to check the Forum for several weeks. I missed it, and tonight, I have read as far as time allowed. I started posting here in January, and had been following the Forum actively until the last 4 weeks. The 'real world' stuff that came up and kept me from coming here is still going on and what I am realizing, is, I am getting involved in life!! I missed reading and posting here, but I am wondering, what exactly is it I am missing? I think it's the unique situation that we can all communicate about, stuff the people close to me *now* have never experienced, by the grace of whatever watched over them and kept them from M The point of this rambling is, can it be that someone can decide M and his obsessive WOK can be forgotten *easily*!? ? - in a matter of months?, with the support of people at this great web site + a renewed involvement and committment to one's family, work, etc.? Can this be? I honestly feel like I am leaving all that premie stuff behind me, after only 3 months. Can it be this easy? If this is real, I have Katie, VP, Jim, Brian, John, a host of others that I am probably never going to meet, to thank. So what do you think? Can it be this easy? Things do happen fast these days. deprogramming on the net for free! Imagine that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 00:31:15 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Selena Subject: Re: Can it be this easy ?Yes! Yes! Yes! (Re: Can it be this easy ?) Message: Hi, Selena, Yes, I feel the same way! I have to thank you and everyone here for support and information. I think I said it before,"I feel like I'm no longer chasing the carrot." VP P.S. There has been some talk about a get together (for fun, not Satsang!) Maybe some of us will meet afterall... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 02:20:21 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: VP Subject: Re: Can it be this easy ?Yes! Yes! Yes! (Re: Can it be this easy ?) Message: Hi, Selena, Yes, I feel the same way! I have to thank you and everyone here for support and information. I think I said it before,'I feel like I'm no longer chasing the carrot.' VP P.S. There has been some talk about a get together (for fun, not Satsang!) Maybe some of us will meet afterall... Hello, Selena. No, it's not that easy. I've been away about 180 months, and it's still not easy. Yet I do believe, just a few months on this web site can do more good than years of separation from GMJ. You miss this websight because only a handful of people can ever understand what the hell you've been through...only those you can find here. No one else can truly relate to you as well as all of us. We're like Vietnam Vets who share a thrilling yet tragic experience as captive souls in a hostile land some time ago. Who else can understand where we're all coming from? Who else? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 04:39:35 (EST)
Poster: seymour Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Can it be this easy ?Yes! Yes! Yes! (Re: Can it be this easy ?) Message: Hello Selena, I am glad that you are finding the web site helpful. I think one of the most important aspects of this site/forum is giving support to premies who are thinking of changing their life style and adopting a more rational perspective on following a master, meditation, the 'Divine', etc. etc. yet still have the same wish as the rest of us to try and make the most of our lives. Yet I would venture a warning that it is not always that easy to become deprogrammed. They say that all lapsed Catholics are always looking for a new crutch to lean on, and once you have accepted certain things as true it is very hard to gain a new perspective without a little help. There is also the 'pendulum swing' effect which makes you distrust anyone else who may be in a postion to give advice - as, once you realise that you have been duped, you do not wish to get stung again. Then there is the fear that you might be turning your back on the only true path to 'satchitanand', or that you might suffer the wrath of the 'Guru who is greater than God'. It takes courage and time to really get over it. I think, after about 10 years I am still affected by some of the superstitious nonsense and ill-informed words of wisdom I heard whilst a premie - e.g. There is only one true Guru (Satguru) - all the others are like weeds surrounding a great oak, and without surrendering the reigns of your life to the Satguru you are wasting your time. Philosophy, Art, Psychology, Science, Sociology, Music ... and just about every other pursuit on the planet are all a waste of time unless they are somehow connected to knowledge Family and friends are just a distraction on the path to true enlightenment. "Friends are people you space out with" to give a direct quote - one of the countless 'unwise' pieces of advice that I still find hard to forget. That one is easy to dismiss but there were many more subtle ones that did not disturb me at the time yet are probably still lingering there in my subconcious influencing my present behaviour and decision making process. I do not mean to worry you Selena. Just be aware that you have been influenced by a very professional organisation whose main job is to convince you that their vision of this life is the only real one. Cheers, Seymour Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 22:38:51 (EST)
Poster: To Les Email: To: Everyone Subject: Bookman Message: Les, You mentioned that 'My ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain 'it' every day, and sometimes I experience 'it' all day long. I am willing to just talk about this alone. It interests me. would you mind getting more specific? What does merge mean to you, and also, what are you referring to when you use the word 'it'? You also said, 'I wont theorize what that something is.' OK, but please mention to me what you think or feel that something is. Sometimes word choices can be obscureing. I'll bet you can go on at length about this exact thing. Let's stick to this specific subject if it's ok with you. bill Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 01:08:15 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: To Les Subject: Re: Bookman Message: Les, You mentioned that 'My ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain 'it' every day, and sometimes I experience 'it' all day long. I am willing to just talk about this alone. It interests me. would you mind getting more specific? What does merge mean to you, and also, what are you referring to when you use the word 'it'? You also said, 'I wont theorize what that something is.' OK, but please mention to me what you think or feel that something is. Sometimes word choices can be obscureing. I'll bet you can go on at length about this exact thing. Let's stick to this specific subject if it's ok with you. bill Bookman, “It” is merging. The techniques are a means for turning one’s attention inward. With skill, one can learn to join attention with “something” that feels like it is at the root and heart of my existence, something powerful, still, and bright. I say attention and the something “merge” because while in the experience, distinctions between attention and the something disappear. During the day, the unity achieved sitting can endure and is quite different from the composite awareness that was my only choice before Knowledge. There is really nothing to “go on at length about.” Merging is a simple endeavor that carries one deep into a conscious, not mental, experience. It doesn’t prevent or hamper mentality, but it’s not mentality either. In all honesty, my ability maintain the experience outside of meditation is irregular. As I said, “sometimes” I experience it all day. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:16:49 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesops 'Dream of the Heart' Message: Aesop, regarding your post entitled "The dream of the heart" which I could certainly relate to. You wrote (in part): The flame to know the true promise of life still burns in those who dream with the heart of a child. In the end, all our dreams will fade when our bodies wither and die. Then only will we ourselves know for sure which dreams were true and which were illusion. etc. I have always been in touch with my childlike heart but I became sick of dreaming I was on the right track. It was precisely because I value my childlike heart so much that I refuse to let it be raped by illusion even if that means questioning my trust in Maharaji. I also was one of those who was desperately searching for Truth as a teenager and who really felt I had found my Lord when Maharaji came to London in 1974. I wrote this spontaneous prayer about 8 years ago when I was still coming to terms with the disillusionment I felt after 16 years of following Maharaji and practising knowledge. I surrendered to Maharaji, as he said to, in the ashram and felt bitter (at age 34) that my sincerity , dedication and heartfelt youthful energies had been wasted. This is reproduced exactly as I jotted it down in a notebook. I absolutely never intended to show this to anyone, it sounds rather naive to me now, but this was a real spontaneous outpouring of my feelings as I approached my mid-life. I think it reveals how I truly felt let down by my Lord and Master, Maharaji and how I desperately wanted to refind my lost childhood innocence and unembittered ‘longing’. It also shows that I longed for a truer revelation of God in my life. MY PRAYER All my life I primed myself for something great. To be a part of something ‘great’ is the cherished goal of the soul of youth in Man. I determined at an early age to give myself to a positive cause, thinking a mundane existence to be avoided at all costs. I jealously idolised those who achieved apparent success and awaited my turn to contribute, to be used, to be a part of a Great Cause. An elusive Great Cause it is proving to be. If life is a ‘giving back of love’ to my Creator, then let it be so in thought ,word and deed. Let the goal be clear, the faith be strong and the heart determined. Don’t allow thoughts of decay and age to depress the soul, to sublimate one’s body into a meaningless existence. Let passion rule where intellectual knowledge becomes impotent. Give the fire in the heart oxygen to burn and explode. Let me be in moments of Truth like the child I was/still am. Free me from the bonds of egoism and let my life be full of delight and wonder so that each day is filled sufficiently for a lifetime. Reveal thyself O mystery Don’t delay or let me be tricked into false sacrifice. The dangers of waste and bitterness are too great - Time is too precious and the need too strong. Open my eyes to the meaning of life that is there; Tear down the hated symbols and rituals that rape my pure innocent heart and murder the true love within. Arise inner God Child perfect and free, Awaken lover within to my trueself. Find strength and pure intent and behold. Let me be found as I am lost. Let my purpose be clear as I am unsure. Focus my emotion into everyday life, make it a practical force. Let me be a noble soldier fighting for a just cause. Let me feel the energy of youth flush through my body and mind. Let me train to achieve. Let me enter middle age with pride and integrity, not inner shame that I wasted my my time in delusion or gave myself in vain. Let me argue.... Let me use my intellect... Let me know why I must act... Let me be unafraid.. Banish fear altogether.. Let me laugh and cry... Let my heart be full as it is now hungry. Let my gratitude return for life as I have grown bitter... Let my soul live as my body lives. Let life be full of deep joy. Let me find the way to real faith and Knowledge. Let me live a full life. Let me turn over a million new leaves and let me blossom before I die. Let this be it ; the life that fulfils itself utterly, that turns it’s back once and for all on illness death and sorrow.. these hands respond to the power of love with absolute certainty, this mind serve the spirit with efficiency and excellence until the end... these eyes see with clarity the way ahead and perceive all the joy and wonder of the universe... these ears hear the undistorted voice of the Creator in the Creation. Let inspiration in at every turn, let time stand still and the heart awaken. Let a deep conviction grow where true logic has destroyed shallow meanings,. Let true Knowledge replace hope and let reality dawn and never set in this being - And fast! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:37:43 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Everyone Subject: New rules of behavior Message: To one and all: Robyn asks a question below that I don't know the answer to. I've been out of the divine lila hoop since '82.. so when was it that the guru outlawed satsang? That is, satsang by the premies? I know that satsang still happens via planting oneself in front of a video machine, but when did it actually happen that premies were not allowed to give satsang? And just for the record, how did that decree go out? I guess the 5 commandments had to be modified somewhat? You know the one that went 'never delay in attending satsang'. But then again I guess that could still apply to getting to that video machine without delay. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:58:47 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: John K. Subject: Re: New rules of behavior Message: [--- snip ---] when was it that the guru outlawed satsang? That is, satsang by the premies? [--- snip ---] Speculatively -- it is known that Bill Gates ignored the import of the advent of the Internet for what seemed an absurdity of a long time in missed opportunity. I think, in similar vein, you'll find the advent of VHS videocasettes and their mass market is pretty much concurrent with when Maharaji outlawed satsang given by rank amateurs (us premies). Until VHS and it's mass-marketing, there really was no other way -- let the premies give mindsang; let the initiators clean it up during their tours -- and let people feel relieved when they finally got the straight poop from Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Once VHS was firmly established (say, when one in 500 American families had at least one VHS videocasette player in the home) then I think the recipe was established to move all the satsang opportunities onto video media. Video had wonderfully darshanic impact during the late 70's -- we'd rent a "video beam" projection system, and use whatever video media player corresponded to the magnetic tapes borrowed from DLM or whoever -- and four times a year or so, we'd get videos. It was wonderful. It was much more immediate and less intermediary than a motion picture was. It was less theme and artwork and more documentary (well, not objectively documentary -- Maharaji shown much as you'd have access to him if you went to a program -- as seen on stage. NO USE WAS MADE of the technology to bring you better access to the man and his personality -- the few family scenes, backyard barbeque scenes, were entirely posed and of no in-depth profiling. Maharaji didn't choose to use an obvious tool -- video tape technology -- to bring himself closer and more accessible to premies. He used it, instead, as another platform to deliver speeches from. Which is fine, but I have to be honest and say I wondered why no other, additional use was made of it. Why not do "a day in the life of a residence premie?" and show all the darshan a residence premie gets? That kind of thing. Boy am I rambling today. :) ---- I came home in June of 1982 from the Air Force -- by then there seemed a definite diaspora. There was this weird psuedo-ashram over in East Hartford -- maybe it was the real thing, I don't know -- but it seemed there was no longer an organized nightly satsang. It was very strange. I felt like I missed the morning alarm clock ringing, and woke up late -- and slept through a nuclear war or something. The world had changed, overnight, and the new one more frightening. All because I went off on my own for a couple of years and lost touch with what was going on in DLM. When I tried to touch base again -- base was gone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:58:39 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Deja Vu (Re: New rules of behavior) Message: "All because I went off on my own for a couple of years and lost touch with what was going on in DLM. When I tried to touch base again--base was gone." I couldn't have said it better myself-VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 19:24:06 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: John K. Subject: Re: New rules of behavior Message: To one and all: Robyn asks a question below that I don't know the answer to. I've been out of the divine lila hoop since '82.. so when was it that the guru outlawed satsang? That is, satsang by the premies? I know that satsang still happens via planting oneself in front of a video machine, but when did it actually happen that premies were not allowed to give satsang? And just for the record, how did that decree go out? I guess the 5 commandments had to be modified somewhat? You know the one that went 'never delay in attending satsang'. But then again I guess that could still apply to getting to that video machine without delay. Aoa's post rings true. I can confirm that satsang was still a crucial ingedient during the first half of 1981, and that twelve months later it had gone forever. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:24:24 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Though All Your Friends Might Turn Away Message: Many many times I sang, along with others at the same moment: "Though all you friends might turn away, troubles surround you every day!" Those words were part of "Spread This Knowledge". It was sung that way as late as 1978, for sure; and on a regular basis. ALL your friends -- might turn away. What the hell were we thinking? Who thought up this song? Isn't this a crazy thing to make accomodation for? For all your friends to turn away for? I gotta hand it to my friends -- they didn't all turn away. Many did. Thank God! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:53:11 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: Though All Your Friends Might Turn Away Message: There have been things that were worth losing "friends" for in my life. I did something once that was the right thing to do and lost some people who I thought were my friends. (They really didn't have the same values or integrity that I had) I've got to say that following a Guru and sitting in a closet meditating is not something I would want to give up my friends for though. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 08:15:03 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Still unanswered question Message: I see that Participent moved his message up here so I'll do the same since he has not answered my question. I have asked this question several times on this forum but as yet, no premie has answered it except for Diver Dan who then disappeared when I pursued it further. So here is my question. To all the premies who are reading this, I ask you a question: Do you believe that Maharaji is the Lord God incarnate, the superior power in person, come with more power than ever before? What's your answer, premies? Yes or No? Please write your answer here on the forum. If you say he's God, then I'll accept that. But if you say he's not God then I'll have to ask you why the hell are you following him? In my own life I followed Maharaji because I believed he was the Lord God incarnate etc. When I stopped believing that, I immediately stopped following him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:43:10 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: David Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I see that Participent moved his message up here so I'll do the same since he has not answered my question. I have asked this question several times on this forum but as yet, no premie has answered it except for Diver Dan who then disappeared when I pursued it further. So here is my question. To all the premies who are reading this, I ask you a question: Do you believe that Maharaji is the Lord God incarnate, the superior power in person, come with more power than ever before? What's your answer, premies? Yes or No? Please write your answer here on the forum. If you say he's God, then I'll accept that. But if you say he's not God then I'll have to ask you why the hell are you following him? In my own life I followed Maharaji because I believed he was the Lord God incarnate etc. When I stopped believing that, I immediately stopped following him. David, In the time when you were a premie, and when Maharaji first came from India, there was a widespread belief that he was an Avatar, which is an Indian concept of an incarnation of God. This can be loosely translated into English as Lord God incarnate, but it doesn't really match the Judaeo-Christian concept of the Messiah. As you know, the Judaeo-Christian dogma fosters a linear concept of time, beginning with the Genesis, then lays a guilt trip on you for liking sex, and somehow takes Cain's sacrifice of Abel a step further by asserting that God (Jahve) made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone for our hypothetical sins. I see that more in line wiht the Aztec rituals of human sacrifice than with a religion that is supposedly based on divine love and mercy. No wonder that following the unspeakable atrocities of the 1st and 2nd World War, many intelligent people in the sixties and the seventies were either becoming atheists or looking to the East, with their traditions of Zen and Yoga and a promise of personal experience of the divine, as they were disenchanted with the above-mentioned myth. The Oriental traditions, that you have come to know, have a very different, world-view than our, Western one. In Europe, when a man dies, we say he gives up the ghost. The body is taken to be real. In India, they say he gives up the body. The soul is taken to be real. To the European, the world is made of ninety-two chemical elements. To the Asiatic, it is made of only five. The Europeans take science seriously, but they take philosophy with a grain of salt. After all, weren't the philosophers only guessing? But the Hindus take philosophy seriously, and they take science with some salt. also, time is regarded as ever/recurring, circular and not as linear in the Judaeo/Christian sense. The spiritual master, or Guru is also traditionally regarded as God, because he creates the right circumstance and provides inspiration for the sincere aspirant to have an experience (samadhi or satori), which can loosely be translated as an experience of God. This is well documented in the Buddhist and Hindu scriptures. It is advantageous for the aspirant to regard his guru as God, because it acts as a device for him/her to persist in their spiritual practice. These traditions are not -religions- in our sense of the word, but actually applied psychological practices leading to familiar and well-documented results. Anyway, I hope you realize that your confusion arises from trying to peg an Indian idea into a Western, Judaeo-Christian peghole. It is possible, but only with considerable effort, and it will never fit altogether. Why not just see things as simply as possible, without plastering all these concepts on them? If you were raised in a small village in a country where they never invented a word for 'God', what would you call Maharaji when he came and talked about Knowledge to people? Yet, he would still have something real to talk about, and something to reveal to people. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 11:16:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: So YOU'RE calling him a fraud, Mili! (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Mili, Time to connect the dots. You've seen more than one quote where Maharaji has claimed he was God. I've posted some, Mr. Ex has posted his more recent favorite ('Hari the pilot'). Yet, you clearly say here that that's not true and that the only reason a guru would perpetuate the lie is to 'help' his devotees: The spiritual master, or Guru is also traditionally regarded as God, because he creates the right circumstance and provides inspiration for the sincere aspirant to have an experience (samadhi or satori), which can loosely be translated as an experience of God. I guess you could quibble with my inference a bit, but that's all it would be. Your message here, Mili, is that a guru poses as God not because it's true -- which it isn't -- but because it helps the devotee get in the mood or something. You then suggest, to my mind anyway, that the only reason gurus have been able to get away with this deceit is because traditonally they've been duping the ignorant who are susceptible to such gross superstition: If you were raised in a small village in a country where they never invented a word for 'God', what would you call Maharaji when he came and talked about Knowledge to people? Yet, he would still have something real to talk about, and something to reveal to people. Mili, some premies must hate you more than they despie us ex's. Maharaji probably does. You don't know how damning you are for him. Think about it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 11:32:47 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Mili, you're wrong here too (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Mili, You're sublimely misleading when you say: In the time when you were a premie, and when Maharaji first came from India, there was a widespread belief that he was an Avatar, which is an Indian concept of an incarnation of God. This can be loosely translated into English as Lord God incarnate, but it doesn't really match the Judaeo-Christian concept of the Messiah. First, if the belief was 'widespread' it was only because Maharaji was spreading it. Again, read the quotes. Listen to those who were there when you weren't. Be honest for a change. Second, Maharaji was the one who was so big on touting the Avatar-Lord-Incarnate-Just-Like-Jesus-Only-Better trip. Again, you are indeed the worst p.r. he could have ever dreamed of. Keep it up, Mili. The effort's appreciated. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:07:56 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Mili, you're wrong here too (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Jim, Dave,(or David I can't remember) I think you hit on some important facts Jim, in responce to Mili's reply to Dave that would be very helpful for those looking into following M or those on the edge of leaving but can you see why premies would shy away from such discussions? I know when whomever it was posted to me that I was referring and that I should stop it hurt a teeny tiny bit and that was nothing really. If a premie does respond they have to know they will be blasted and aside from a fanatically intense, no one gets anywhere but frustrated discussion what do they gain? As I said the only one I can see who benifits is the aspirant or doubting premie and that is good enough for our purposes but what is the responding premie's motivation? Just wondering. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:56:02 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Mili Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Thanks Mili, that's a very good answer to my question and in fact, if I had not heard Maharaji say otherwise, I would accept your explaination as being extremely valuable. The only trouble, you see, is that I heard Maharaji say many times that he was God, the all knowing, all pervading and all powerful God. I have no argument with you Mili because you and I have obviously read from different pages in the story. In the seventies, the only reason I tried to devote my life to M was because I thought he was the God come in human form. He let this be known many times. I even have old satsang transcriptions here where Maharaji says that he is the Lord of the Universe. He says that when THAT Lord manifests on the earth, it is the greatest possible thing, to be His devotee. I have heard much of this from M's own lips. But you answered my question. You don't believe that Maharaji is God. Fine. In that case he is a religious leader or spiritual Guru and he is welcome to have a happy band of followers. However, if that's all Maharaji is, then what he says can only be seen in the true context as just another guru spreading his message. Why then, the claim of divine authority (even Billy Graham doesn't claim this) and why the divine copyright on some meditation techniques? Personally, I have nothing against people kissing his feet if they want to, after all, people kiss the Pope's ring don't they. The problem I do have Mili, is that when premies claim it is only the path that they are following which is the true path through life. That doesn't feel right. Especially since M is just another human like us. But here's the rub - I think most premies will say one thing and think another. They'll say Maharaji's not God but in private they really believe he is. Can you appreciate why we ex-premies find such double talk a little tiresome? Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:57:01 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mili, you're wrong here too (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Jim, Dave,(or David I can't remember) I think you hit on some important facts Jim, in responce to Mili's reply to Dave that would be very helpful for those looking into following M or those on the edge of leaving but can you see why premies would shy away from such discussions? I know when whomever it was posted to me that I was referring and that I should stop it hurt a teeny tiny bit and that was nothing really. If a premie does respond they have to know they will be blasted and aside from a fanatically intense, no one gets anywhere but frustrated discussion what do they gain? As I said the only one I can see who benifits is the aspirant or doubting premie and that is good enough for our purposes but what is the responding premie's motivation? Just wondering. Robyn Can I jump in? I always wonder why premies engage in some of these discussions, the way they do. When I was a good little practicing premie, I was aware of most of the contradictions presented here. I knew maharaji said he was the Lord and was aware of his backsliding on that issue (even then). I knew about all the money, stories about drinking and bursts of rage. I had some rationalizations in my mind for most of the stuff, but really didn't know facts. So I had to settle for not really knowing and considering that possibly some or all of the stuff was true. The circumstance that kept me going was the "experience", which I knew I had (to whatever small extent). No one could argue with that; maybe arguments could be made about how often, how long, or how much those experiences were, or what caused them. Sometimes I wonder what the premies posting here are doing, trying to debate about stuff that is obviously true or undebatable... things maharaji said or waffled on, techniques used to influence aspirants and the public, and so on. No one ever says, "Look, I'm fucking blissed out all the time. I'm just on top of the world. I feel so euphoric all the time" (probably because they're not). But that's the argument. I think we all knew we were following a young boy with Rolls Royce's, who said he was God, and didn't make much sense. It amazes me how anyone can argue with that. I often think the crux of a premie's delusion is how their experience is interpreted. It seems to be a complex system that can't be easily penetrated. Maybe the long arguments about all the extraneous stuff is a smokescreen to keep from looking at it. Maybe I should pretend I'm a premie and do the debate for Mili, Aesop, Les, etc. I might be able to do a better job. Maybe it was all those years of great satsang. Maybe that's why these premies are so lost. I imagine their motivation is the same as ex's; to help people who may be trying to decide about following maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 13:16:56 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Rick Subject: Re: Mili, you're wrong here too (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Rick, Jump in anytime. I've enjoyed your posts in the past. I just don't see the point to all this circular arguing but I guess I did say to another post that a circle is a good shape so what do I know. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:00:09 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: So YOU'RE calling him a fraud, Mili! (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Mili, Time to connect the dots. You've seen more than one quote where Maharaji has claimed he was God. I've posted some, Mr. Ex has posted his more recent favorite ('Hari the pilot'). Yet, you clearly say here that that's not true and that the only reason a guru would perpetuate the lie is to 'help' his devotees: The spiritual master, or Guru is also traditionally regarded as God, because he creates the right circumstance and provides inspiration for the sincere aspirant to have an experience (samadhi or satori), which can loosely be translated as an experience of God. I guess you could quibble with my inference a bit, but that's all it would be. Your message here, Mili, is that a guru poses as God not because it's true -- which it isn't -- but because it helps the devotee get in the mood or something. You then suggest, to my mind anyway, that the only reason gurus have been able to get away with this deceit is because traditonally they've been duping the ignorant who are susceptible to such gross superstition: If you were raised in a small village in a country where they never invented a word for 'God', what would you call Maharaji when he came and talked about Knowledge to people? Yet, he would still have something real to talk about, and something to reveal to people. Mili, some premies must hate you more than they despie us ex's. Maharaji probably does. You don't know how damning you are for him. Think about it. Jim, you're so predictable. I didn't expect any other response from you than this. You didn't try to understand a word that I said, but you read your trip into it instead. Talk of a one-track mind... The simple fact is - you think of him as a fraud, and I do not. That's because we have different criteria. To me a genuine spiritual Master is the one who has brought me into the experience of Knowledge. Maharaji has done that for me, WITHOUT requiring me to think of him as 'God'. 'God' is just a limited concept. Any 'God' that you can think of is not the real God, but just your imagination of God. In fact it is an icon that you create yourself, and perhaps worship it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:07:47 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: So YOU'RE calling him a fraud, Mili! (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Mili, Time to connect the dots. You've seen more than one quote where Maharaji has claimed he was God. I've posted some, Mr. Ex has posted his more recent favorite ('Hari the pilot'). Yet, you clearly say here that that's not true and that the only reason a guru would perpetuate the lie is to 'help' his devotees: The spiritual master, or Guru is also traditionally regarded as God, because he creates the right circumstance and provides inspiration for the sincere aspirant to have an experience (samadhi or satori), which can loosely be translated as an experience of God. I guess you could quibble with my inference a bit, but that's all it would be. Your message here, Mili, is that a guru poses as God not because it's true -- which it isn't -- but because it helps the devotee get in the mood or something. You then suggest, to my mind anyway, that the only reason gurus have been able to get away with this deceit is because traditonally they've been duping the ignorant who are susceptible to such gross superstition: If you were raised in a small village in a country where they never invented a word for 'God', what would you call Maharaji when he came and talked about Knowledge to people? Yet, he would still have something real to talk about, and something to reveal to people. Mili, some premies must hate you more than they despie us ex's. Maharaji probably does. You don't know how damning you are for him. Think about it. Jim, you're so predictable. I didn't expect any other response from you than this. You didn't try to understand a word that I said, but you read your trip into it instead. Talk of a one-track mind... The simple fact is - you think of him as a fraud, and I do not. That's because we have different criteria. To me a genuine spiritual Master is the one who has brought me into the experience of Knowledge. Maharaji has done that for me, WITHOUT requiring me to think of him as 'God'. 'God' is just a limited concept. Any 'God' that you can think of is not the real God, but just your imagination of God. In fact it is an icon that you create yourself, and perhaps worship it. Again, typical Mili, typical premie, typical cult member, you're afraid to stay on point. You lose, coward. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:44:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: David Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Thanks Mili, that's a very good answer to my question and in fact, if I had not heard Maharaji say otherwise, I would accept your explaination as being extremely valuable. The only trouble, you see, is that I heard Maharaji say many times that he was God, the all knowing, all pervading and all powerful God. I have no argument with you Mili because you and I have obviously read from different pages in the story. In the seventies, the only reason I tried to devote my life to M was because I thought he was the God come in human form. He let this be known many times. I even have old satsang transcriptions here where Maharaji says that he is the Lord of the Universe. He says that when THAT Lord manifests on the earth, it is the greatest possible thing, to be His devotee. I have heard much of this from M's own lips. But you answered my question. You don't believe that Maharaji is God. Fine. In that case he is a religious leader or spiritual Guru and he is welcome to have a happy band of followers. However, if that's all Maharaji is, then what he says can only be seen in the true context as just another guru spreading his message. Why then, the claim of divine authority (even Billy Graham doesn't claim this) and why the divine copyright on some meditation techniques? Personally, I have nothing against people kissing his feet if they want to, after all, people kiss the Pope's ring don't they. The problem I do have Mili, is that when premies claim it is only the path that they are following which is the true path through life. That doesn't feel right. Especially since M is just another human like us. But here's the rub - I think most premies will say one thing and think another. They'll say Maharaji's not God but in private they really believe he is. Can you appreciate why we ex-premies find such double talk a little tiresome? Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. Thanks for appreciating my effort to be sincere, David. I think I was too harsh in calling you 'confused'. Sorry. It's just the emotional tension from reading too many of these preposterous lies about Maharaji here. Fact is, we are all more or less confused, but the way to get 'unconfused' is to focus on things which are certain, and not dwell on ambiguity. Part of my first post here comes form 'Advaita Vedanta and Modern Science' by John Dobson. I'd just like to add the complete quote here: 'In Europe, when a man dies, we say he gives up the ghost. The body is taken to be real. In India, they say he gives up the body. The soul is taken to be real. To the European, the world is made of ninety-two chemical elements. To the Asiatic, it is made of only five. The Europeans take science seriously, but they take philosophy with a grain of salt. After all, weren’t the philosophers only guessing? But the Hindus take philosophy seriously, and they take science with some salt. After all, isn’t the world unreal? Yet, although these differences in interpretation are obvious to all, there cannot be two real worlds, one for the East and one for the West. Since there can be only one real world, it must be that our various descriptions and interpretations of it can be reconciled if we can understand the other fellow’s language and the observations on which his descriptions and interpretations are based.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:47:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Thanks Mili, that's a very good answer to my question and in fact, if I had not heard Maharaji say otherwise, I would accept your explaination as being extremely valuable. The only trouble, you see, is that I heard Maharaji say many times that he was God, the all knowing, all pervading and all powerful God. I have no argument with you Mili because you and I have obviously read from different pages in the story. In the seventies, the only reason I tried to devote my life to M was because I thought he was the God come in human form. He let this be known many times. I even have old satsang transcriptions here where Maharaji says that he is the Lord of the Universe. He says that when THAT Lord manifests on the earth, it is the greatest possible thing, to be His devotee. I have heard much of this from M's own lips. But you answered my question. You don't believe that Maharaji is God. Fine. In that case he is a religious leader or spiritual Guru and he is welcome to have a happy band of followers. However, if that's all Maharaji is, then what he says can only be seen in the true context as just another guru spreading his message. Why then, the claim of divine authority (even Billy Graham doesn't claim this) and why the divine copyright on some meditation techniques? Personally, I have nothing against people kissing his feet if they want to, after all, people kiss the Pope's ring don't they. The problem I do have Mili, is that when premies claim it is only the path that they are following which is the true path through life. That doesn't feel right. Especially since M is just another human like us. But here's the rub - I think most premies will say one thing and think another. They'll say Maharaji's not God but in private they really believe he is. Can you appreciate why we ex-premies find such double talk a little tiresome? Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. Thanks for appreciating my effort to be sincere, David. I think I was too harsh in calling you 'confused'. Sorry. It's just the emotional tension from reading too many of these preposterous lies about Maharaji here. Fact is, we are all more or less confused, but the way to get 'unconfused' is to focus on things which are certain, and not dwell on ambiguity. Part of my first post here comes form 'Advaita Vedanta and Modern Science' by John Dobson. I'd just like to add the complete quote here: 'In Europe, when a man dies, we say he gives up the ghost. The body is taken to be real. In India, they say he gives up the body. The soul is taken to be real. To the European, the world is made of ninety-two chemical elements. To the Asiatic, it is made of only five. The Europeans take science seriously, but they take philosophy with a grain of salt. After all, weren’t the philosophers only guessing? But the Hindus take philosophy seriously, and they take science with some salt. After all, isn’t the world unreal? Yet, although these differences in interpretation are obvious to all, there cannot be two real worlds, one for the East and one for the West. Since there can be only one real world, it must be that our various descriptions and interpretations of it can be reconciled if we can understand the other fellow’s language and the observations on which his descriptions and interpretations are based.' No amount of this tired, thin soup of spiritual nonsense could get Maharaji off the hook, Mili. It's fun to watch you try though. Keep going. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:52:35 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Mili Subject: Change in packaging (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Mili, The first premie who ever talked to me about M told me this. (Back in the 70's) He got a copy of the Bible and showed me all of the passages about the "light" and the "word" of God. He told me that many perfect masters had been on this earth before and that they had taught this knowledge; Budda, Krishna, and Jesus included. He said that Maharaji was the current living perfect Master and that if I wanted to know what all the fuss about Jesus was about, I needed to ask for Knowledge and accept GMJ into my heart. I heard the same speech over and over at Satsang and video programs. This premie friend of mine heard this from M himself and did not make this up. M wore these Krishna-like costumes and sat on thrones. I guess I cannot understand the change in "packaging" (for lack of a better term) that M has undergone with EV. Can anyone answer me-it doesn't have to be a premie. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:56:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Thanks Mili, that's a very good answer to my question and in fact, if I had not heard Maharaji say otherwise, I would accept your explaination as being extremely valuable. The only trouble, you see, is that I heard Maharaji say many times that he was God, the all knowing, all pervading and all powerful God. I have no argument with you Mili because you and I have obviously read from different pages in the story. In the seventies, the only reason I tried to devote my life to M was because I thought he was the God come in human form. He let this be known many times. I even have old satsang transcriptions here where Maharaji says that he is the Lord of the Universe. He says that when THAT Lord manifests on the earth, it is the greatest possible thing, to be His devotee. I have heard much of this from M's own lips. But you answered my question. You don't believe that Maharaji is God. Fine. In that case he is a religious leader or spiritual Guru and he is welcome to have a happy band of followers. However, if that's all Maharaji is, then what he says can only be seen in the true context as just another guru spreading his message. Why then, the claim of divine authority (even Billy Graham doesn't claim this) and why the divine copyright on some meditation techniques? Personally, I have nothing against people kissing his feet if they want to, after all, people kiss the Pope's ring don't they. The problem I do have Mili, is that when premies claim it is only the path that they are following which is the true path through life. That doesn't feel right. Especially since M is just another human like us. But here's the rub - I think most premies will say one thing and think another. They'll say Maharaji's not God but in private they really believe he is. Can you appreciate why we ex-premies find such double talk a little tiresome? Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. Thanks for appreciating my effort to be sincere, David. I think I was too harsh in calling you 'confused'. Sorry. It's just the emotional tension from reading too many of these preposterous lies about Maharaji here. Fact is, we are all more or less confused, but the way to get 'unconfused' is to focus on things which are certain, and not dwell on ambiguity. Part of my first post here comes form 'Advaita Vedanta and Modern Science' by John Dobson. I'd just like to add the complete quote here: 'In Europe, when a man dies, we say he gives up the ghost. The body is taken to be real. In India, they say he gives up the body. The soul is taken to be real. To the European, the world is made of ninety-two chemical elements. To the Asiatic, it is made of only five. The Europeans take science seriously, but they take philosophy with a grain of salt. After all, weren’t the philosophers only guessing? But the Hindus take philosophy seriously, and they take science with some salt. After all, isn’t the world unreal? Yet, although these differences in interpretation are obvious to all, there cannot be two real worlds, one for the East and one for the West. Since there can be only one real world, it must be that our various descriptions and interpretations of it can be reconciled if we can understand the other fellow’s language and the observations on which his descriptions and interpretations are based.' No amount of this tired, thin soup of spiritual nonsense could get Maharaji off the hook, Mili. It's fun to watch you try though. Keep going. Jim, what is this thing about evolutionary psychologists saying that the human brain is 'hard-wired' for religion? Is that good or bad? Maybe the ol' pineal gland is good for something after all, hmmm? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:04:20 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Interesting question. I'd love to reply but my aggrieved sense of fairness won't let me. You are ignoring other points and questions, Mili, such as about Maharaji himself claiming to be God. So, you want to discuss? Fine. I'm here for you. But first you owe a few answers, don't you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:19:32 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Interesting question. I'd love to reply but my aggrieved sense of fairness won't let me. You are ignoring other points and questions, Mili, such as about Maharaji himself claiming to be God. So, you want to discuss? Fine. I'm here for you. But first you owe a few answers, don't you? Jim, I don't owe you any answers. We are not in court and I am not the poor victim that you are cross-examining and are going to send to jail no matter what. I don't have to answers insults that you disguise as 'questions'. As regards Maharaji, I am not his spokesman here. If you have any grievances, take it up with him in person if you have the guts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:32:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Interesting question. I'd love to reply but my aggrieved sense of fairness won't let me. You are ignoring other points and questions, Mili, such as about Maharaji himself claiming to be God. So, you want to discuss? Fine. I'm here for you. But first you owe a few answers, don't you? Jim, I don't owe you any answers. We are not in court and I am not the poor victim that you are cross-examining and are going to send to jail no matter what. I don't have to answers insults that you disguise as 'questions'. As regards Maharaji, I am not his spokesman here. If you have any grievances, take it up with him in person if you have the guts. Mili, I'm merely saying that you expect answers to your questions. So do I. Also, you DO make apoint of trying to defend Maharaji here. If you're quitting, I don't blame you. Finally, I have tried to get an audience with the man. As you might now, he's a little hard to reach. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:43:04 (EST)
Poster: Memphis Bell Email: To: David Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I am new. I am very young, and I notice everyone else is in there 40's ro 50's. I do not believe that M is God. I don't know what to think of everything, even though I have just received K. I feel it was a beautiful and touching experience but I'm having trouble continueing because I'm tired of being yelled at all the time while watching M on the videos. How come he yells so much? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:43:25 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: VP Subject: Re: Change in packaging (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: [--- snip ---] He got a copy of the Bible and showed me all of the passages about the 'light' and the 'word' of God. He told me that many perfect masters had been on this earth before and that they had taught this knowledge; Budda, Krishna, and Jesus included. He said that Maharaji was the current living perfect Master and that if I wanted to know what all the fuss about Jesus was about, I needed to ask for Knowledge and accept GMJ into my heart. I heard the same speech over and over . . . [--- snip ---] I can corroborate this -- definitely was one motif for a conversion argument. Not the only one -- but it was one of them, for sure, as late as 1977. It was mindsang though -- it wasn't ever mainstream satsang, if I recall correctly (and I don't know that I do; I'm just saying.) You're the one who never got K, is that right? So you were excluded from all those premie-only gatherings (and there were lots of 'em) -- is that right? I'm not sure what to say about it [see your quote above] being in Satsang or in motion pictures and the early video technology that was out then. There was one wierd one and maybe it was the one called "Satguru Has Come" where there was a myriad of religious symbols shown on the screen, and an abstract segment with just wierd visual abstract patterns on the screen -- I can't be sure (it was a very long time ago). In "normal" satsang -- no. The Lord of the Universe stuff didn't much leak into normal satsang -- not even at programs, really. Not by 1976. We'd sing songs that made things perfectly clear, but it was amazingly not touched subject in satsang itself -- very few would dare to push too hard at the supernatural aspects during regular group satsang. Brian McDermott made a rare breach in the dogma-security unspoken rule and wept like a child, onstage, in the Poconos. It was pretty clear he was making supernatural claims to an ability to "call Maharaji to the Poconos" just by wishing, essentially. But that was rare. References to Jesus and the other boys were relatively circuitous and indirect -- only in And It Is Divine (pre-1976 editions I believe) that older premies had laying around, and in copies of Shri Hans' discourses, perhaps. I don't know; I dont' remember well. What I do remember is the sum total of the indoctrination was a lot of craziness, and pretty much 90 percent of the "bullshit" attributable to Maharajis and Premies in the 70's on this website, I'd heard many times and could corroborate. This isn't being made up -- not in 1998 it isn't! It was perhaps made up by premies, and allowed by Maharaji. In some instances, seeded by Maharaji. Certainly not corrected when in error. It got to a point a long time ago -- 1979, at the latest --- where for me the watchword was "if a premie repeated it, it was garbage mindsang; if Maharaji said it, he said it on video or audio somewhere and nothing less is acceptable proof he said it." That became a main focus -- did Maharaji say such and such or is some premie embellishing and interpreting? That problem made it intractible, for of course most of the bullshit being promulgated was in fact premie mindsang that never appeared in print or on video. Much or most of it had some "reasonable" context after you listen to all the crap in those devotional songs about the Lord of the Universe has come to us this day etc. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:48:46 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Memphis Bell Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I am new. I am very young, and I notice everyone else is in there 40's ro 50's. I do not believe that M is God. I don't know what to think of everything, even though I have just received K. I feel it was a beautiful and touching experience but I'm having trouble continueing because I'm tired of being yelled at all the time while watching M on the videos. How come he yells so much? Welcome, Memphis Bell. I think maharaji yells because he's trying to reach us. He's trying to get through to you. Of course, there's some debate about what he's trying to get through and what's standing in the way. The videos are of public programs, so actually maharaji is speaking to an audience in an auditorium. I always found that disturbing and in fact, had forgotten about his yelling. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:52:38 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com To: Memphis Bell Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Dear Memphis: The age question I can't really answer. It's one of those mysteries of life. Why do certain generations run off and do certain crazy things that other generations don't do? Beats me daddyo... I am curious how you heard about it, why you liked it enough to recieve K, how did it all happen? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:08:51 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Memphis Bell Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I am new. I am very young, and I notice everyone else is in there 40's ro 50's. I do not believe that M is God. I don't know what to think of everything, even though I have just received K. I feel it was a beautiful and touching experience but I'm having trouble continueing because I'm tired of being yelled at all the time while watching M on the videos. How come he yells so much? Maharaji, who used to be called "Guru Maharaj Ji" has always yelled a lot, on an off. I recall he would go through periods when he yelled all the time, and then there were periods when he seemed much lighter. And I'm not talking just about a loud tone. He would yell with much derision and disgust about the "people of the world", "human beings" and all the stupid things they do. Usually this yelling would be punctuated by a glaring look from those slits of eyes he has peering out of his fleshy face. The fact that he has such a squeaky, irritating voice doesn't help when he's screaming about that stuff. It can be extremely irritating, but most premies are programmed to sit and let it waft over them, hardly listening to any content. Instead, they wait for the stupid jokes he inevitively makes, and for the music and dancing to follow his rantings. This is programmed into premies anyway, because there is virtually no content in what he says, and the little there is, is just repeated, over and over, with lots of pauses. I personally think he rants and yells when he is feeling particularly frustrated that things aren't going too well, especially when he used to be thought of as "all powerful" and "all knowing." During all the money shortages during the Boeing 707 plane project, he was screaming a lot (Hans Jayanti in 1979 is of particular note.) I think, like most premies as well, he is incapable of or avoids, ever taking any responsbility for anything upon himself, and so he yelled at the stupid premies, the initiators, or "human beings" in general, for failing to recognize him and serve him properly. I think he gets a little pissed off and starts yelling when he realizes he is 40, and, despite his promise to bring world peace and knowledge to the entire world, only .00004% of the U.S. population, for example, is following and that he has fewer devotees now than he had 15 years ago!!! And this insult falling on the perfect master, and the guy formerly known as the Lord of the Universe!!!! Those reality facts, which are hard to refute or miss, I think, tend to make him a little cross. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:24:35 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: Change in packaging (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: AOAJ, Yes, that's me. The one without the knowledge. I remember(early 70's) at the mainstream Satsang hearing "perfect master" distinctly, but you are right there were not many references to Jesus at the preliminary meetings and mostly they talked about how wonderful "this experience is". But I recall the perfect master line especially at some of the later programs that I went to. The premies running a couple of the videos were the ones who also said "perfect master" in reference to the big guy on the screen. I don't ever recall that content being within a video itself. I think that I was excluded from all of the premie only meetings, except for the times when I snuck and watched from another room when I was supposed to be asleep and they were all singing arti and passing something around(?) or meditating or talking about the same stuff I mentioned above. The premies around me were not really very careful to avoid talking with each other about this around the children. They wanted us to receive K. They wanted us to know. That's why I think we may have gone to some of the premie only meetings. (The adults wanted to go and there was no sitter and we were all put into another room kind of thing) I was very young and the details of all meetings are very sketchy, (half of the time I was probably scratching my itchies and wishing I was at the movies) but the seeds planted in a young heart were real. The lines about "light" and "word" and "perfect master" were repeated to me over and over. That's why I am having a hard time here understanding how someone could still be a premie after the 70's and accept the new packaging unless they still believe that he is the perfect master anyway or unless they just like practising K and don't care. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:34:50 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Memphis Bell Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I am new. I am very young, and I notice everyone else is in there 40's ro 50's. I do not believe that M is God. I don't know what to think of everything, even though I have just received K. I feel it was a beautiful and touching experience but I'm having trouble continueing because I'm tired of being yelled at all the time while watching M on the videos. How come he yells so much? Hi, Memphis Belle! I am early 30's (that still may be old to you) and never received K although I have premie family members and I wanted to receive K for a long time. I used to see M yell and I never understood how the premies could stand it. I never understood how they could believe anyone who yelled so much was the "Perfect Master" or the "Lord of the Universe." This is one of several reasons why I probably never received Knowledge. Give a listen to some of these "old timers". (Just kidding guys). They have a lot of info that you were quite possibly never told before (if you are new to Maharaji and EV) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:35:39 (EST)
Poster: Memphis Bell Email: To: John K. Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: Dear Memphis: The age question I can't really answer. It's one of those mysteries of life. Why do certain generations run off and do certain crazy things that other generations don't do? Beats me daddyo... I am curious how you heard about it, why you liked it enough to recieve K, how did it all happen? I met someone who is a premie. The words I heard from that someone seemed so clear about life. I became interested and began going to videos. I was searching for God. I was curious about knowledge and I received it very lovingly. I have not practiced it like I should, EVERY DAY, and I'm wondering why. Is it because I am uncomfortable with M. Is it because I am not P right. I was very touched the first time I received K, I still remember what it was like to be quiet, to hear my heartbeat, to feel my breath - things I had not remembered to do for a long time. But now I am a little confused about the event programs and videos. They seem so distant to me, lots of yelling, the same things said over and over and over. Is it any wonder why I question? Am I alone? M may have taught me Knowledge, and it has gotten me to this point of finding God, so I am thankful. What I am looking for inside of me, not in M. God gave me life. I have to go, I'll write more next week. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:59:53 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Memphis Bell Subject: Re: Still unanswered question Message: I also wanted to say that I, too, was very touched by meditation and receiving knowledge when I did. I was pretty young at the time, I was 20. There is a lot to be said for searching for truth, and enjoying going inside, which meditation can allow you to do. If that was all Maharaji was about, things wouldn't be so back, but what Maharaji is about is much more than that. He is about devotion to HIM. Meditation is just the lure to get people involved. And I think he knows that only a few people will swallow the abuse for very long. In the past, he explicitly demanded total, 100% dedication and surrender to him. Now, he doesn't say that because he can't get away with it so easily. So, it's just more covert. I would suggest that the uneasy feeling you get from him, is that ulterior motive coming through what he is saying. The anger and yelling speaks louder about who or what he thinks he is (a god-like being) than the actual words, in my opinion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 21:17:42 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Memphis Bell Subject: Yelling & meditation (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Yes the yelling. I forgot about that. I once spent weeks persuading two friends to come and see M for the first time at a premie/intro program in Wembley. Eventually they relented, just out of curiosity and to please me, I guess. Maharaji was in one of his yelling moods and one of my poor friends just spent the time groaning as each shreak of Maharaji's voice blasted at his eardrums. Of course, I never spoke about M with them again after that. I have a business associate who is very good at starting businesses but once started, soon loses interest in them. I get the feeling that M revealing his Knowledge is a bit like that. These meditation techniques are ancient and have been around for donkey's years. Maharaji has just packaged them into his "Knowledge". The techniques are extremely valid and certainly can change one's awarness and bring inner peace. But Maharaji gives no instruction on how to proceed with meditation and no help is offered to people who receive the knowledge, other than an occasional knowledge review. If a person wants to practise this meditation then there is something there to be experienced. But it has nothing to do with Maharaji. Rather it is simply another experience of yourself, another exploration into what YOU are. Nobody can claim they have a handle on that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 02:55:49 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Mili Subject: Hi, Mili! (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Hi, Mili. How are you doing these days? I can say with some confidence that I understand both your Eastern European culture and your personality temperamant. You see I'm originally from Eastern Europe myself and lived there long enough to understand a few things. Anyway, I honestly think you're a bit on the edge of emotional insanity. Though you're I.Q. is relatively high and impressive, it has nothing to do with the rest of your behavior. I do respect your freedom to believe whatever you choose to believe: spiritually, politically or otherwise. I also presume that you do not actually practice Knowledge as perscribed by GMJ, and haven't in years. (Though it doesn't matter in this context.) You seem to be more or less a philospher who wants to test your theories on this forum through various forms and methods of written communication. English is your second language (I presume) and you do very well with it. I admire those who can speak with more than their native tongue. But I do wish to express to you without an ounce of animosity: FIND A NEW MISSION IN LIFE! ...other than fighting with former premies on a web page. You're a smart guy (despite many ex-premie's opinions). You can contribute to the world in much better ways than what you're doing here on this site, I'm sure. Go ahead. Dare to change for the benefit of those who can truly use you. Best Wishes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 05:06:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Hi, Mili! (Re: Still unanswered question) Message: Hi, Mili. How are you doing these days? I can say with some confidence that I understand both your Eastern European culture and your personality temperamant. You see I'm originally from Eastern Europe myself and lived there long enough to understand a few things. Anyway, I honestly think you're a bit on the edge of emotional insanity. Though you're I.Q. is relatively high and impressive, it has nothing to do with the rest of your behavior. I do respect your freedom to believe whatever you choose to believe: spiritually, politically or otherwise. I also presume that you do not actually practice Knowledge as perscribed by GMJ, and haven't in years. (Though it doesn't matter in this context.) You seem to be more or less a philospher who wants to test your theories on this forum through various forms and methods of written communication. English is your second language (I presume) and you do very well with it. I admire those who can speak with more than their native tongue. But I do wish to express to you without an ounce of animosity: FIND A NEW MISSION IN LIFE! ...other than fighting with former premies on a web page. You're a smart guy (despite many ex-premie's opinions). You can contribute to the world in much better ways than what you're doing here on this site, I'm sure. Go ahead. Dare to change for the benefit of those who can truly use you. Best Wishes. John, I replied originally to this thread specifically because David asked me to. First Jim butted in, tried a few of his 'questions', then threw a few insults at me and went away. Typical. Now you have a problem with my posting here. Why - am I interfering with some kind of group think here? Mucking up your 'deprogramming'? Sorry. Anyway, I know when I am not welcome, and I'll try and not irritate you in the future. I don't know what you mean by 'as prescribed by Maharaji', but I am having some nice experiences in meditation. 'Emotional insanity'? That's a new one. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 04:36:37 (EST)
Poster: Participant Email: To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Work Message: Ex-premies on this forum are continually insulting Maharaji in the most gross and disgusting manner. They do not seem to realise how hard Maharaji is working to spread this Knowledge. Here is a schedule of thirty three events in 1997 that I have put together from videos seen in our local community. This demonstrates both his level of committment and his need for the jet ex-premies are continually sneering about. It's not as if Maharaji enjoys all this travel and is participating in these events for his enjoyment. This list is not necessarily complete and it's indicative of his efforts that Maharaji needed a four month rest at the beginning of the year to recover from 1996. Baisakhi Festival, India 4/11-13/97 Universal City, USA 5/23/97 Washington DC, USA 5/25/97 Paris, France 6/1/97 Mannheim, Germany 6/4/97 Barcelona, Portugal 6/7-9/97 Milan, Italy 6/12-13/97 Leicester, England 6/15/97 Brighton, England 6/16-17/97 Copenhagen, Denmark 6/20/97 Wembley, England 6/22/97 Toronto, Canada 6/29/97 New York, USA 6/30/97 Oakland, USA 7/5-6/97 Miami Beach, USA 7/12-13/97 Vera Cruz, Mexico 7/15/97 Isla Margarita 7/17-18/97 Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 Buenos Aires, Brazil 7/23/97 Sao Paulo, Brazil 7/26/97 Abidjan, Ivory Coast 7/30-31/97 Durban, South Africa 8/5-6/97 Amaroo, Australia 8/23/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 9/6-7/97 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 9/10-11/97 Tokyo, Japan 9/29-30/97 Denver, USA 10/14/97 Long Beach, USA 10/18/97 Calcutta, India 11/4-5/97 Kathmandu, Nepal 11/8/97 New Delhi, India 11/14/97 New Delhi, India 11/18-20/97 Long Beach, USA 12/4-6/97 Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 05:08:47 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Ex-premies on this forum are continually insulting Maharaji in the most gross and disgusting manner. They do not seem to realise how hard Maharaji is working to spread this Knowledge. Here is a schedule of thirty three events in 1997 that I have put together from videos seen in our local community. This demonstrates both his level of committment and his need for the jet ex-premies are continually sneering about. It's not as if Maharaji enjoys all this travel and is participating in these events for his enjoyment. This list is not necessarily complete and it's indicative of his efforts that Maharaji needed a four month rest at the beginning of the year to recover from 1996. Baisakhi Festival, India 4/11-13/97 Universal City, USA 5/23/97 Washington DC, USA 5/25/97 Paris, France 6/1/97 Mannheim, Germany 6/4/97 Barcelona, Portugal 6/7-9/97 Milan, Italy 6/12-13/97 Leicester, England 6/15/97 Brighton, England 6/16-17/97 Copenhagen, Denmark 6/20/97 Wembley, England 6/22/97 Toronto, Canada 6/29/97 New York, USA 6/30/97 Oakland, USA 7/5-6/97 Miami Beach, USA 7/12-13/97 Vera Cruz, Mexico 7/15/97 Isla Margarita 7/17-18/97 Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 Buenos Aires, Brazil 7/23/97 Sao Paulo, Brazil 7/26/97 Abidjan, Ivory Coast 7/30-31/97 Durban, South Africa 8/5-6/97 Amaroo, Australia 8/23/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 9/6-7/97 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 9/10-11/97 Tokyo, Japan 9/29-30/97 Denver, USA 10/14/97 Long Beach, USA 10/18/97 Calcutta, India 11/4-5/97 Kathmandu, Nepal 11/8/97 New Delhi, India 11/14/97 New Delhi, India 11/18-20/97 Long Beach, USA 12/4-6/97 So, he's a work-a-holic businessman. I know plenty of hard working people intent on keeping the lifestyle that they are used to. GM has a very lucrative family business to maintain. ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 05:15:32 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Ex-premies on this forum are continually insulting Maharaji in the most gross and disgusting manner. They do not seem to realise how hard Maharaji is working to spread this Knowledge. Here is a schedule of thirty three events in 1997 that I have put together from videos seen in our local community. This demonstrates both his level of committment and his need for the jet ex-premies are continually sneering about. It's not as if Maharaji enjoys all this travel and is participating in these events for his enjoyment. This list is not necessarily complete and it's indicative of his efforts that Maharaji needed a four month rest at the beginning of the year to recover from 1996. Baisakhi Festival, India 4/11-13/97 Universal City, USA 5/23/97 Washington DC, USA 5/25/97 Paris, France 6/1/97 Mannheim, Germany 6/4/97 Barcelona, Portugal 6/7-9/97 Milan, Italy 6/12-13/97 Leicester, England 6/15/97 Brighton, England 6/16-17/97 Copenhagen, Denmark 6/20/97 Wembley, England 6/22/97 Toronto, Canada 6/29/97 New York, USA 6/30/97 Oakland, USA 7/5-6/97 Miami Beach, USA 7/12-13/97 Vera Cruz, Mexico 7/15/97 Isla Margarita 7/17-18/97 Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 Buenos Aires, Brazil 7/23/97 Sao Paulo, Brazil 7/26/97 Abidjan, Ivory Coast 7/30-31/97 Durban, South Africa 8/5-6/97 Amaroo, Australia 8/23/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 9/6-7/97 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 9/10-11/97 Tokyo, Japan 9/29-30/97 Denver, USA 10/14/97 Long Beach, USA 10/18/97 Calcutta, India 11/4-5/97 Kathmandu, Nepal 11/8/97 New Delhi, India 11/14/97 New Delhi, India 11/18-20/97 Long Beach, USA 12/4-6/97 People also continually insulted Hitler, and according to his wife, it was in the most gross and disgusting manner. Hitler worked pretty hard too. All of those countries in such a short time, ex-mug Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 07:14:05 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Ex-premies on this forum are continually insulting Maharaji in the most gross and disgusting manner. They do not seem to realise how hard Maharaji is working to spread this Knowledge. Here is a schedule of thirty three events in 1997 that I have put together from videos seen in our local community. This demonstrates both his level of committment and his need for the jet ex-premies are continually sneering about. It's not as if Maharaji enjoys all this travel and is participating in these events for his enjoyment. This list is not necessarily complete and it's indicative of his efforts that Maharaji needed a four month rest at the beginning of the year to recover from 1996. Baisakhi Festival, India 4/11-13/97 Universal City, USA 5/23/97 Washington DC, USA 5/25/97 Paris, France 6/1/97 Mannheim, Germany 6/4/97 Barcelona, Portugal 6/7-9/97 Milan, Italy 6/12-13/97 Leicester, England 6/15/97 Brighton, England 6/16-17/97 Copenhagen, Denmark 6/20/97 Wembley, England 6/22/97 Toronto, Canada 6/29/97 New York, USA 6/30/97 Oakland, USA 7/5-6/97 Miami Beach, USA 7/12-13/97 Vera Cruz, Mexico 7/15/97 Isla Margarita 7/17-18/97 Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 Buenos Aires, Brazil 7/23/97 Sao Paulo, Brazil 7/26/97 Abidjan, Ivory Coast 7/30-31/97 Durban, South Africa 8/5-6/97 Amaroo, Australia 8/23/97 Kaohsiung, Taiwan 9/6-7/97 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 9/10-11/97 Tokyo, Japan 9/29-30/97 Denver, USA 10/14/97 Long Beach, USA 10/18/97 Calcutta, India 11/4-5/97 Kathmandu, Nepal 11/8/97 New Delhi, India 11/14/97 New Delhi, India 11/18-20/97 Long Beach, USA 12/4-6/97 Participant: Ask a college instructor if giving the same lecture 35 times in a six month period is a tough schedule. It's not as though he had to come up with anything new, or do any additional research, or write anything in the meantime. There are quite a few academics with a much more demanding schedule that don't have a private jet to smooth out the travel fatique. How generous you are. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 07:42:19 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Ex-premies on this forum are continually insulting Maharaji in the most gross and disgusting manner. But then, kind and flattering insults are harder to find than people who believe that Maharaji actually works. They do not seem to realise how hard Maharaji is working to spread this Knowledge. Maharaji doesn't appreciate how hard we all are working here to spread our first-hand Knowledge of his being a fraud. You only have a place on the Internet to post such mindless drivel due to the fact that there are some people out here who think for themselves rather than accept his self-serving instruction. This demonstrates both his level of committment and his need for the jet ex-premies are continually sneering about. It demonstrates your ability to rationalize his wallowing in money that was donated to spread knowledge. Even televangelists make a better attempt at fleecing a world-wide flock than MJ does. It's not as if Maharaji enjoys all this travel and is participating in these events for his enjoyment. Please don't tell me he's been whining about it?!! He usually gets a pretty good seat saved for himself at these events, you know... Get a clue, Participant. MJ just raised the price of his videos by 25% at a time when video-production costs are dropping through the floor. Keep buying them, though. He really needs your support. Otherwise he'd have to support himself. And he's far too inept to take on that responsiblity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:23:54 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant,I'll ask this sincerely, not to start an argument but to make a point: Where is the listing for Elan Vital or for Visions International in the telephone book? This list of programs is impressive, but totally useless to someone who has no access to it and/or has never heard of Maharaji. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:12:48 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Participant, I don't get your point. If M wants to spread this K because it is love than shouldn't all those appearances and all that spreading have him totally blissed out of his mind every minute of his existance? Eh? Why is it so hard on him? Could it be because he sees it as his job, the way he gets to have the money and service from premies to get him the "things" he needs/wants/thinks he needs. M is blasted here because he has proved himself insincere and cruel to many that post here. Listen to them they speak from their hearts that M broke. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 13:59:35 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Maharaji's Work Message: Hard work. Yeah, right. Ever think that Maharaji loves to travel? I know I do. And yet, Maharaji doesn't have to subject his golden, pudgy form to thinks like airports, airline food, other passengers and other terribly burdensome things that make life so hard. I don't know where you get the stupid idea that what M does couldn't be loads of fun for him. Either way, it's certainly lucrative. I love to travel. Don't you? I might also like to be worshipped by thousands of people and get paid for it. That sounds like fun too. I don't know about having thousands of people kissing my feet, but, hey, whatever gets him off. I mean, he has servants waiting on him hand and foot, his own, private luxury aircraft (even first class is not good enough), wherever he goes he stays in one of his luxurious residences with even more servants, or in the best hotels or other accommodations that the place has to offer. He gets the very best food, is continually complimented, does not have to lift a finger to even carry his own baggage, and is transported to and from his luxury plane in private helicopters, or, at a minimum, luxury automobiles. He also sets his own schedule and if he decides NOT to do a program he doesn't get fired. He is in complete control of what he decides to do or not do. How many people have THAT luxury? He has never worked a day in his life. He has never had a boss, pay the rent, fear that he might not have the money to send his kids to the very best colleges, etc. When he gets to wherever he is going, he has the terrible ordeal of sitting and blathering repetitive, platitudes and stupid stories, which the audience acts like are some kind of precious pearls of wisdom, and who otherwise worship him in the most fawning manner. Then he gets love songs sung to him. No one around him ever criticizes anything he does or says, no matter how obviously stupid or incoherent it is. He wears $5000 suits and is fabulously wealthy from doing these arduous tasks. My, he works SO hard and suffers so much for a mere $6,000,000 a year. But then, if M was REALLY insterested in spreading knowledge he might be publicizing it just a bit. You know, by talking to the press, going on TV, maybe having an INTERNET web site? But he doesn't do any of that. That might be stressful and those people might not fawn all over him and let him get away with saying utter nonsense. He just flies around in luxury and preaches to the converted, who won't question him, and maybe to a few of the converted's friends who are carefully selected to attend an "introductory program." You're right. We exs just don't understand the terrible ordeals Maharaji goes through to spread knowledge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 14:32:47 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: JW Subject: Work!!! Ha ha ha!!! (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: Joe: Something participant says strikes me as so incredibly funny. Of course one aspect of this that is funny is thinking that the guru is actually working by going to these auditoriums and giving the same talk he has been giving for the past 40 years. One of the things he says in these talks is that if you do think about what he is saying you are inviting confusion in. In other words, don't think about it, just feel it. So it's funny to think that these unprepared and off the cuff and totally inane speeches are actually 'work'. I know, I used to give satsang. I know it's not work. You just get up there and let your mouth run. No preparation required. And no thinking about what you are saying is required either, and no explanation of what you have said is required. But what is even funnier is that the guru actually complains about it. And he does! One of the videos I went and saw last year, he did complain about how many hours he has to spend in this little compartment in the little jet. I mean what happened to the idea of blissful service? Isn't the guru doing the service that his guru gave him to do? Or has it already become a grind? And what about the fact that here in America, probably at most .0001 per cent of the population have and practice his Knowledge. So why is he flying all around the world? Why not just spread it here in his own little neighborhood? I know I am doing a real no no by actualy 'questioning' the guru's activities. But why not simply stay in one place for a while. I mean a soul is a soul is a soul, isn't it? And yes Participant, which one of us would not gladly take his 'job' or I should say 'position'? Now what someone like Mother Teresa was doing, I doubt any of us would like to do that, because we all know she was actually doing real work, giving real help to people who are really suffering. Not much glamour and glory in that. Not many people would want to do that now would they? (BTW, what kind of jet did Mother Teresa have?) But the guru's schedule? Thanks for the laugh! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:12:01 (EST)
Poster: Ever think about that? Email: aoa To: Participant Subject: Why those particular cities, Premie Ji? (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: [--- snip ---] Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 Buenos Aires, Brazil 7/23/97 Sao Paulo, Brazil 7/26/97 [--- snip ---] Maharaji picked out a few peculiarly-linked cities. And by linked, I mean, they all share some common demographics. Maharaji's programme for world peace is predicated on preaching to the percentage of the world's population willing or able or eligible to live in big cities. After all these years of carrying his message to Santiago, Chile -- how about the rest of that gigantic countryside? Why Santiago? It seems clear enough he's only going to places where he can find Premies of a very narrow demographic (as compared to all the demographic groups available to him in the form of living human beings on this earth). Can anyone guess or inform about what demographic he's focused in on? Is it people who need peace? Is it people living in any form of substandard conditions? People who live any distance from international airports? People who cannot rent large auditoriums and halls and convention centers? Is it any of them? There's a lot of people in this world who need peace, according to Maharaji's definition of both "peace" and the need for it. Most of those people have been overlooked; and in their stead, most of the people who get to hear his message -- have heard it ad nauseum. Where's the balance in that? Where's the prachar in that? Where is Knowledge "spreading" and where is is "rooting"? Isn't it rooting right next to the Money Tree -- doesn't it always grow in the same soil -- and no other? -And On Anand Ji Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:16:35 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: --- Subject: Re: Why those particular cities, Premie Ji? (Re: Maharaji's Work) Message: [--- snip ---] Santiago, Chile 7/20-21/97 [--- snip ---] Isn't it rooting right next to the Money Tree -- doesn't it always grow in the same soil -- and no other? -And On Anand Ji Oh but he's the Lord -- I forgot. He can do whatever the hell he wants. Sorry -- my mistake. I forgot he holds the "Lord's Lila" trump card -- nothing he does may be criticized -- none of it need make any common sense. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 20:52:45 (EST)
Poster: Steve A Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au To: Everyone Subject: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Following on from the thread below, I also enjoy reading your posts. I had better be very careful with my Abrev. in future. I am curious, can some ex-premies tell me of some of the positive things that have happened in their lives as a direct result of escaping DLM/EV. I think it would be good for some of the Premies who post here to hear of some of good things that have happened in our lives. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:26:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Steve: Good question. I left at the end of the '70s and finally got my BS (Bachelor of Science) in 1982, working with R. Buckminster Fuller's co-author of Synergetics, Arthur Loeb. I was an activist for Citizen Action for a number of very rewarding years and received my Masters in Public Administration in 1991, at Willamette University. I just received by Ph.D. in Public Policy working with Martin Lipset (Marty is sort of the Pope of Political Sociology, but the exact opposite of arrogant or "special." See the post about how he helped push my car when it broke down.) I have had the privilege of actually knowing a good number of my heroes and role models. I'm not rich, and I don't have a close family, although a number of close friends that I've known since I was a pup. Maybe that's next. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:33:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Thanks for the suggestion. I stopped pretending I loved a fat, little Indian kid who was part in corpus and part in my brain. I stopped breathing funny and started enjoying sex. I stopped wasting my evenings listening and spouting bullshit and began having some real fun and stimulation. I stopped giving over my paycheques and asking for a few dollars for snacks at lunch. I started spending my discretionary income discretionarily. I stopped thinking this fat little Indian guy actually understood and controlled my existence. I started playing more music. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:08:20 (EST)
Poster: Steve A Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Dear Jim and Scott Isn't it great to get rid of those feelings of guilt?. Whilst I was in DLM life started to feel very one dimensional, everything in life could only be seen in terms of GMJ and DLM. I missed so much in those years, it feels good now being able to enjoy life and to see it and people for what and who they really are. After DLM I gave more time to study and gained a degree in Mechanical Engineering and my life is challenging and rewarding and I enjoy it to the fullest. I rexamined my relationship with God and decided it would become deeper and more personal. I now have a deeper respect for myself and the people I relate to, and reading alot from the people who post here only strengthens my belief that God and good resides in us all. Perhaps we may have to look beyond the ego and prejudice both our own and in others to find the beauty within us all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:20:24 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Steve: Regarding: Perhaps we may have to look beyond the ego and prejudice both our own and in others to find the beauty within us all. I think you may have the key to something here. J. Habermas calls this "linguistification of the sacred," but I like your terms better. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 23:12:21 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Within a year of leaving DLM I met the woman to whom I have been married for twenty years (3/18/78), and I have helped raise two daughters. After that, I started playing music seriously and worked as a church musician and played in two bands in San Jose, CA, releasing records with both bands. I started a Musicians' Guild. I became a footnote in San Jose Rock History. I went back to school, earned a B.S. in Organizational Behavior from University of San Francisco, and am presently finishing a M.Div/M.A at the Graduate Theological Union. I live in a community which is intellectually stimulating, spiritually invigorating, and very loving. Everything hasn't always been easy, but I find it rewarding and exciting, and I am much happier than I ever was as a Premie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 23:38:39 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Steve A Subject: It's a Wonderful Life! (Re: VP, anon, Robyn) Message: Steve A., Good Idea! I like to hear the positives. I never actually joined DLM or EV so I can't tell you what happened after leaving, but I can tell you a bit of what happened in my life as a regular non-premie. My life has been very rich and rewarding. After hearing about M, asking for K and being turned down for being too young, I finished elementary school, went to high school, went to college (graduated with honors), went to graduate school(honors there), married, worked very hard in two different careers -so far,(asked for K again and got jerked around!) had a family, made lots of friends, had lots of sex, read books, traveled (a little, but hope to do more of that) played some music, made some art. I have money, time and freedom. I feel personally and spiritually very fullfilled and fortunate for the great life that I have. Who knows what may have happened to me if I had gotten involved with DLM on the level that others here have??? (I know that if I had been given K the first time I asked, I would have been grounded by my parents-ha ha!) Seriously...VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 23:59:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: Steve A Subject: Good Things (Re: VP, anon, Robyn) Message: dear Steve A - I can't say whether the good things that occurred in my life after I left Maharaji and DLM were a direct result of leaving, but certainly a lot of good things have happened. Actually one good thing that you commented on too is that I began to feel a lot less guilty about being who I was - maybe that helped some of the other good things to happen. I went back to school shortly before leaving DLM (actually this was instrumental in my leaving). I was 21 when I started but persevered and got a BS and MS and finally a decent job. I also had a lot of fun in college - I was very serious as a premie even though I was so young, and thus missed out on a lot of the fun part of growing up. I got a lot of the counseling and therapy that I needed after growing up in a very weird environment, and that has helped me more than my efforts to practice knowledge ever did. I married an very wonderful person who had never heard of Maharaji, but who is very supportive of me (and also encourages my participation in the Forum.) There's probably more, but what I really feel that I gained from leaving DLM was the freedom to be myself and to feel good about being who I was. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 01:48:07 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Following on from the thread below, I also enjoy reading your posts. I had better be very careful with my Abrev. in future. I am curious, can some ex-premies tell me of some of the positive things that have happened in their lives as a direct result of escaping DLM/EV. I think it would be good for some of the Premies who post here to hear of some of good things that have happened in our lives. The MOST postive thing that happend to me after I left the Maharaji cult (which is 15 years ago this month) was that I started to feel my own feelings again, instead of repressing them because I didn't think I was supposed to have them, or attribute them to some short, fat, Indian megalomaniac that I never even met. I stopped fantasizing that the guy cared about me, was taking care of me, and realized that he had absolutely nothing to do with my life, other that what I attributed to him. I realized that it was my "faith" that created the positive experiences I had with Maharaji and knowledge. I realized I could have those same experiences without all the negative things that went along with Maharaji and his organization. The feeling of freedom after leaving was exhilarating. And other good things happened. I re-established good relations with my family, I got a graduate degree, I got a good job, I bought a great house, I have a great long-term relationship with a terrific person who loves me, I got in good physical and emotional shape, I made great friends, I had lots of great sex (even if I had a bit of a dry spell in my 20s in the ashram), I travelled a lot, I developed a love for wilderness, developed a love for reading and music, and I felt really good about myself. I stayed away from anything spiritual, but I still felt very spritual inside myself, and now I go to a church because I like the feeling of community and because the church does wonderful things for people who need help. I feel no requirment to swallow any of the ideology, not that there is much. Since I left the cult, I have said many, many more times to myself, how terrific my life is and how glad I am to be alive. Those kinds of feelings were very rare as a premie, and yet I believed I was happy. And, oh, yes, one of the rewards for being in a cult is that you get to feel superior to all the stupid people who haven't recognized the Lord of the Universe, and all those, poor, poor, confused people, who have been given the supreme experience and rejected it. But that's a pretty limited reward, and ultimately extremely unfulfilling and ultimately, the joke is on you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 09:09:58 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Actually, since I jumped off the train, I have been stuck in a dry hot desert where I keep getting attacked and eaten by sharks and also there is a real strong smell of rotting vegies which I just can't seem to get rid of. Other than that though everything is just terrific! JUST kidding. Oops, I probably shouldn't have said all that. Aesop will probably believe it! Hey, my story reminds me of the story about the woman who lived in the crowded little house and went to the wise guru to ask for advice. The guru had the woman move her cow, goat, chickens etc into the house with her. So then when the guru let her move all the animals out of the house it felt so great because she had forgotten how crowded it was before. Moral of the story....uhmmmm gee I don't really know, other than maybe you shouldn't go asking gurus for advice? Sometimes I feel that way about my subjecting myself to living in the ashram, and trying to generate devotion to the guru, etc. For several years after I left it felt so great just to wake up ALL BY MYSELF in my OWN apartment that I was paying for with MY OWN money. Even though it was a lousy little apartment, it was MINE! I was free to think whatever I wanted and say whatever I wanted. OH man, it felt so great. We now live in a nice house in a wonderful neighborhood in a medium size city, and I now have an 8 yrd old daughter and two older kids that I helped raise who are now in college. Obviously my life has had it's ups and down, but really I have been very very lucky to have such a wonderful life. The best thing that I did for myself was start playing piano again and writing music. I also (like Mickey the Pharisee) play music (from time to time) in the church I attend, and I sing in the choir, where I get overwhelmed from time to time with awesome feelings of universal love for all of humanity. Also, I have just finished (or am almost finished) with writing a musical. My big goal at the moment is to find some way to get it produced. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:54:16 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Following on from the thread below, I also enjoy reading your posts. I had better be very careful with my Abrev. in future. I am curious, can some ex-premies tell me of some of the positive things that have happened in their lives as a direct result of escaping DLM/EV. I think it would be good for some of the Premies who post here to hear of some of good things that have happened in our lives. I really had to think about this one. My extrication from maharaji has been slow, over several years, and in different stages. I never went back to school or made big amounts of money, and although enough good things have happened, it's hard to attribute them all to directly leaving DLM. But... the first stage was leaving the city I lived in as a devoted premie. Although I still practiced knowledge, I was anonymous, and that provided separation and relief from all those pesky premies. After another move, some quasi-counselling from a family member, who was a fringe premie herself, freed me from alot of the cult thinking: That deriving satisfaction from worldly things like relationships, creativity, and occupations was "mind". I was confronted with my belief that I was superior to non-premies as a facade that made me feel better about myself, when I really didn't feel very good. Seeing how I didn't feel good was a big step, but that probably would've had to happen if I'd never followed maharaji. The demise of satsang in the eighties was another big step. The yoke of obligation to have to be at some hall or at the home of a person I didn't like and sit through hours of mental masturbation was stressful. Although there were some good moments I miss, the payments were very steep. Without the constant support of satsang to keep all the beliefs warm in my mind, going to programs became a non-issue. I was discouraged that the fleeting bliss would be possible to attain without a regular dose of mind control, and the cost of flying to programs was too high for a quick infrequent fix. The stage was set for the final escape: No longer harboring secret beliefs that maharaji was the Lord and actually being able to feel anger at him, without fearing some cosmic retribution. Discontinuing praying to him in my mind slipped away about 10 years ago, but the final thorough cut probably happened recently and with the great help of this forum (and you all), where I can finally say "Fuck You Maharaji, You Piss-Ass-Poor Guru... Fuck You - You Mislead Me". I suppose I'm just not a very positive guy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:16:24 (EST)
Poster: eb Email: To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Following on from the thread below, I also enjoy reading your posts. I had better be very careful with my Abrev. in future. I am curious, can some ex-premies tell me of some of the positive things that have happened in their lives as a direct result of escaping DLM/EV. I think it would be good for some of the Premies who post here to hear of some of good things that have happened in our lives. This may not sound so great, but while slowly extricating myself from DLM, I spent 12 years in therapy dealing with ACA, Mormon, Maharaji, co-dependence, along with violence and rape issues. (After M, I started feeling my feelings--depression and panic). Got divorced. Was homeless for a time. The good part: Married a wonderful man 8 years ago who is helping me raise all these kids (5 total--3 boys, 2 girls). Two kids are just about done with college--one is just starting; one is a gothic teenager who keeps me honest; the youngest, a joyful, spirited first grader. Got my bachelors in Business Administration last June. Have had a great job since 1990. Bought a house. Drive a car. Work out daily. (These things were beyond me as a premie). Spiritually, although I have chosen to stop trying to figure out God, I love to do hatha yoga, hypnotherapy, and several forms of meditation to achieve deep relaxation and peace. I have some pretty outrageous experiences in deep trance. As I stated before, M got me out of the Mormon cult and for that I am grateful. The contrasting belief systems allowed me to break away from some heavy early programming. In my case, M really did take on the weak and the weary. But there came a point where I had to deal with some heavy issues. Knowledge was of no use when it came to healing past trauma. It provided an escape but no resolution. One last thing--I just want to tell you all how much I appreciate this forum. Thanks to everyone. eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:20:55 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Steve, I am an ex-premie but I have mentioned and do admit to having positive experiences in meditation and due to the meditation but those good things can not make the bad, dishonest, shiester(sp?) things M has done. To erradicate those bad things and just glorify him because of the positive things meditation generates would be, for me, to deny the ability each person has in themselves to experience love, joy and peace. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:31:45 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Steve A Subject: Re: VP, anon, Robyn Message: Steve, I miss read your post, missed the word escaped totally. I thought you were a premie. Sorry. I've had an off week and today has been particuarly frustrating. I shouldn't have really even responded because I didn't leave DLM through any real decision process I just kind of drifted away, got on with my life. I have had many issues to work through other than DLM and have come to terms with a lot of that although I am still in the process and because of that I have gone on to school, graduated with honors also and am really just now at 42 am beginning a professional career but I have a wonderful relationship with my own neuclear family as a result of my efforts on that front. Sorry for the inappropriate response. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 19:50:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Why do some people become stupid, self-righteous hypocrites after only a few decades with an unprincipled cult leader? Below, I had a typical exchange with Aesop. 'Typical' in that a lot of premies share this mixture of brazen hypocrisy, self-righteousness and evasion. Here's what happened. Aesop said only the 'true of heart' (like him) get Knowledge for the right reason and stay with Maharaji. Someone like me, he offered with no uncertainty, didn't answer the same, genuine call when I got involved. I definitely wouldn't make the grade today. I called him on his pomposity as follows: The difference between you and me, Aesop, is honesty. Your version of premieship is a complete whitewash. Too bad it flies in the face of Maharaji's own long-standing description of the human condition. After all, the Maharaji that I listened to for years said a bunch of things you now contradict: 1) Beyond our egos, our 'false selves,' we were all the same. 2) Each one of us had a 'sincere thirst for truth.' 3) Each one of us had a dirty, poisonous mind, ready to trick us in a moment into deceving our heart. 4) No one could gauge their own devotion. That was a game only the mind played. Watch out! 5) No one was beyond 'falling.' 6) No 'fallen' premie was beyond redemption. 7) It was all a matter of Maharaji's grace, NOT our own inherent qualities. 8) 'Sincerity' meant, amongst other things, admitting that we didn't even know what 'sincerity' meant. Really, the most 'sincere' thing we could ever do was just drag ourselves to satsang, service, meditation and darshan, REGARDLESS of what our fickle mind wanted. If it liked it, fine. If not, do it anyway. Now, apparently, Maharaji's changed his tune a bit and you're jsut singing along. My guess is that this 'born-to-be-mild' theory you're pushing is Maharaji's best way to explain away all those who've left him. The more that leave, the more precious those who stay can feel. It wasn't always like that. It used to be the other way around (still a third description of reality Maharaji played with). When the cult was on the rise, Maharaji could afford to demonize those few who left as 'monmots', people who'd prticularly fallen prey to the evil mind. The rest of us were just plain, ol' regular. As the numbers change, the cult leader rationalizes to throw a mock shroud of virtue over the remaining, dwindling flock. That's all. [The only reason I'm reposting this here is because I hate to see conversations get buried 'below the fold', as it were, and I'd really like to get Aesop's reaction out in the open] Aesop then replied like this: That's all very high and mighty of you to claim that the difference between us is you are the honest one and I'm not, but just where the f__k do you get off challenging my integrity bud? Your post is such a gross example of malice-minded spin control to any onlooker with any sense of objectivity. Not to mention, you don't make any sense. Me now: Aesop, dear friend, who started off impugning others' integrity? I spent eight years in fatty's ashram and you have the audacity to say I was, unlike you, insincere all along. Your hypocrisy here is so utterly laughable, I really can't believe it. Think about it, before you respond, will ya? As for my 'malice-minded spin control', care to elaborate? Specifically, do you take issue with any of the eight propositions I say Maharaji indoctrinated us with? If so, which? Believe me, friend, I'm as sincere now as I ever was. Finally, you say I don't make any sense. Now that hurts! Again, care to explain yourself? I think I make perfect sense -- you claim to have a guage on your instrument panel for 'sincerity' that Maharaji used to say never existed. Moreover, if it did exist, it would be useless becuase, he said, sincerity was HIS gift. We were all losers before the Lord. You've gone back in time and painted everything that's happened in a very negative light even though it wasn't that way for you at one time. If it was, we have to talk about how gutless you were to have stayed when you weren't enjoying it. Me again: Well, Eugene, you've got me there. I've changed my mind! What are you going to do? Shoot me? (I'm not talking to you, Mili). Yes, I used to believe all sorts of things and yes, I even stayed a little longer than I might have. But really, Credo, 'enjoying it' wasn't what Maharaji set as any standard for staying put. What's wrong with you? Weren't you in the ashram or something? Maharaji made it clear to us more than once that the more our minds wanted to leave, the more we should stick it out. (Yet the more we did enjoy ourselves, the more we should stick it out too. Like a snake's gullet, it was a one-way street). As for my honesty I'm not trying to whitewash anything, but attempting to express what I feel happened... at least for me. You clearly interpreted things differently than I did. Me again: Whether you're 'trying' or not, you are, in fact, whitewashing all sorts of stuff. That could be a simple slip on your part, until, of course, it's pointed out to you. Then, if you don't correct the false impression you've made, you're plain, old guilty. But, speaking of interpretation, why not deal with the eight propositions I've mentioned? Did you or did you not hear Maharaji say each and every one of them? Knowledge is like life. At face value it's full of contradictions but when understanding exists the contradictions disappear. As I said before there's no way you would receive Knowledge today coming with the same motivation that you did then. Given that a sound foundation was not built for you, it's no wonder you had difficulties. Me for the last time: It's time for you to read the Guru Papers, Archimedes. Those contradictions you've accepted for so long should be telling you something. You're lost, Leroy. Or is it 'found'? Or maybe you're me and I'm you? Or maybe, nothing's certain but everything is? How much contradiction will it take befroe you realize you've simply been had? Please, deal with those eight propositions. If you don't, I'll take that as proof that you simply can't deal with anything beyond your own meaninglessness. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 20:17:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Aesop's big excuse: 'interpretation' (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: As funny as the Scientologists, with their insistence that the only reason one would ever take issue with any of L.Ron's blather is that one MUST have read past a word one didn't understand, are the premies with their big bugaboo excuse: 'interpretation.' Case in point: Aesop's idiotic complaint that John likened Maharaji to a racoon. Katie called him on playing dumb (as i he'd never heard a metaphor or analogy before!) but he tred to keep a straight face and chalk this up as just one more special example of 'misunderstood' communications: Sure, I'll assume the best. He was making an oblique reference to the raccon as an example of how his thoughts have on occasion been of a violent nature. However you surely must be able to see how one could draw a different conclusion at first glance. You gave him the benefit of the doubt, I didn't. So, perception has a bearing on how we interpret reality, once again. Now why do the premies do this all the time? Could it be that they're desparate to find some way to obliterate the obvious impressions their fat little cult leader once gave when he claimed to be the Lord and Saviour of Mankind? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 20:52:38 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Jim said: Why do some people become stupid, self-righteous hypocrites after only a few decades with an unprincipled cult leader? Below, I had a typical exchange with Aesop. 'Typical' in that a lot of premies share this mixture of brazen hypocrisy, self-righteousness and evasion. I say: Jim, why can't you engage in a discussion without being such a rude and condescending prick? Show me where I've evaded you, and please tell me why I should give you the time of day. Your tactics certainly do not engender any respect from me. Jim said: Here's what happened. Aesop said only the 'true of heart' (like him) get Knowledge for the right reason and stay with Maharaji. Someone like me, he offered with no uncertainty, didn't answer the same, genuine call when I got involved. I definitely wouldn't make the grade today. I say: Here's what happened. Jim gave his motivation for getting Knowledge (see below) as being caught in the trend of the day. I contended that if he were to come today, he would be turned down for K (sorry but it's a fact bud) because IT'S NOT THE RIGHT UNDERSTANDING. And I quote: >I grew up dreaming about girls. Then, when the eastern >spiritual circus came to town I, like many of my >generation, got enthralled and jumped on the wagon. So you didn't have a good foundation upon which to receive K to begin with. It's no wonder it didn't work for you. Over the recent years Maharaji has made painstaking effort to make sure people receive it with the right motivation. Jim said: I called him on his pomposity as follows: The difference between you and me, Aesop, is honesty. Your version of premieship is a complete whitewash. Too bad it flies in the face of Maharaji's own long-standing description of the human condition. And I say: Who the f__k are you to say I'm not honest in my account of my own life. Again you're such a condescending little worm. Jim said: After all, the Maharaji that I listened to for years said a bunch of things you now contradict: 1) Beyond our egos, our 'false selves,' we were all the same. 2) Each one of us had a 'sincere thirst for truth.' 3) Each one of us had a dirty, poisonous mind, ready to trick us in a moment into deceving our heart. 4) No one could gauge their own devotion. That was a game only the mind played. Watch out! 5) No one was beyond 'falling.' 6) No 'fallen' premie was beyond redemption. 7) It was all a matter of Maharaji's grace, NOT our own inherent qualities. 8) 'Sincerity' meant, amongst other things, admitting that we didn't even know what 'sincerity' meant. Really, the most 'sincere' thing we could ever do was just drag ourselves to satsang, service, meditation and darshan, REGARDLESS of what our fickle mind wanted. If it liked it, fine. If not, do it anyway. And I say: Yeah , what you are saying doesn't make any sense. Where are the contradictions? (I may be slower than you Jim so please explain.) Items 1 through 6 seem okay. Items 7 and 8 I disagree with your interpretation totally. And Jim said: Me now: Aesop, dear friend, who started off impugning others' integrity? I spent eight years in fatty's ashram and you have the audacity to say I was, unlike you, insincere all along. Your hypocrisy here is so utterly laughable, I really can't believe it. Think about it, before you respond, will ya? I say: So f__king what!!! So you spent eight years in an ashram. Give the man a cupie doll. What, you started the journey in the wrong direction and you thought somehow the ashram would set you straight? You didn't have a clue why you should be there but stayed on anyway. What a wimp! And you're still exercising the same gutlessness because you can't even admit for a second that you have any responsibility for having been there as long as you were. Jim said: As for my 'malice-minded spin control', care to elaborate? I say: No I don't care to - you wouldn't get it anyway. Jim said: But really, Credo, 'enjoying it' wasn't what Maharaji set as any standard for staying put. > I say: Sure it was. He's always stressed that one should enjoy K. Many who were not enjoying living in the ashram were encouraged to leave. You just didn't have the guts to leave when it wasn't working for you, and you don't have the guts now to admit it. Jim said: Me for the last time: It's time for you to read the Guru Papers, Archimedes. Those contradictions you've accepted for so long should be telling you something. You're lost, Leroy. Or is it 'found'? Or maybe you're me and I'm you? Or maybe, nothing's certain but everything is? I say for the last time: More cute standup gibberish from Jim. Say bucko why don't you stop trying to be cute, and be a little more respectful of others. I know, why not pretend the other person is sitting in the same room as you, and unless you treat them with common courtesy you could get your head knocked off. It's maybe one way you can overcome your problem. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 20:57:02 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop's big excuse: 'interpretation' (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: As funny as the Scientologists, with their insistence that the only reason one would ever take issue with any of L.Ron's blather is that one MUST have read past a word one didn't understand, are the premies with their big bugaboo excuse: 'interpretation.' Case in point: Aesop's idiotic complaint that John likened Maharaji to a racoon. Katie called him on playing dumb (as i he'd never heard a metaphor or analogy before!) but he tred to keep a straight face and chalk this up as just one more special example of 'misunderstood' communications: Sure, I'll assume the best. He was making an oblique reference to the raccon as an example of how his thoughts have on occasion been of a violent nature. However you surely must be able to see how one could draw a different conclusion at first glance. You gave him the benefit of the doubt, I didn't. So, perception has a bearing on how we interpret reality, once again. Now why do the premies do this all the time? Could it be that they're desparate to find some way to obliterate the obvious impressions their fat little cult leader once gave when he claimed to be the Lord and Saviour of Mankind? Jim my friend, are you having a bad day? Your negative rhetoric is becoming deafening. You're a piece of work! I sincerely thought John was advocating violence, and upon Katie's input gave him the benefit of the doubt. If that's not good enough for you... well, I could care less if it's not. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:02:02 (EST)
Poster: Aesop Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Jim said: Why do some people become stupid, self-righteous hypocrites after only a few decades with an unprincipled cult leader? Below, I had a typical exchange with Aesop. 'Typical' in that a lot of premies share this mixture of brazen hypocrisy, self-righteousness and evasion. I say: Jim, why can't you engage in a discussion without being such a rude and condescending prick? Show me where I've evaded you, and please tell me why I should give you the time of day. Your tactics certainly do not engender any respect from me. Jim said: Here's what happened. Aesop said only the 'true of heart' (like him) get Knowledge for the right reason and stay with Maharaji. Someone like me, he offered with no uncertainty, didn't answer the same, genuine call when I got involved. I definitely wouldn't make the grade today. I say: Here's what happened. Jim gave his motivation for getting Knowledge (see below) as being caught in the trend of the day. I contended that if he were to come today, he would be turned down for K (sorry but it's a fact bud) because IT'S NOT THE RIGHT UNDERSTANDING. And I quote: >> But Aesop disingenuously suggests that we somehow grew up looking for a 'master.' Not me, fella. I grew up dreaming about girls. Then, when the eastern spiritual circus came to town I, like many of my generation, got enthralled and jumped on the wagon. >> So Jim didn't have a good foundation upon which to receive K to begin with. It's no wonder it didn't work for him. Over the recent years Maharaji has made painstaking effort to make sure people receive it with the right motivation. Jim said: I called him on his pomposity as follows: The difference between you and me, Aesop, is honesty. Your version of premieship is a complete whitewash. Too bad it flies in the face of Maharaji's own long-standing description of the human condition. And I say: Who the f__k are you to say I'm not honest in my account of my own life. Again you're such a condescending little worm. Jim said: After all, the Maharaji that I listened to for years said a bunch of things you now contradict: 1) Beyond our egos, our 'false selves,' we were all the same. 2) Each one of us had a 'sincere thirst for truth.' 3) Each one of us had a dirty, poisonous mind, ready to trick us in a moment into deceving our heart. 4) No one could gauge their own devotion. That was a game only the mind played. Watch out! 5) No one was beyond 'falling.' 6) No 'fallen' premie was beyond redemption. 7) It was all a matter of Maharaji's grace, NOT our own inherent qualities. 8) 'Sincerity' meant, amongst other things, admitting that we didn't even know what 'sincerity' meant. Really, the most 'sincere' thing we could ever do was just drag ourselves to satsang, service, meditation and darshan, REGARDLESS of what our fickle mind wanted. If it liked it, fine. If not, do it anyway. And I say: Yeah , what you are saying doesn't make any sense. Where are the contradictions - I may be slower than you Jim so please explain. Items 1 through 6 seem okay. Items 7 and 8 I disagree with your interpretation totally. And Jim said: Me now: Aesop, dear friend, who started off impugning others' integrity? I spent eight years in fatty's ashram and you have the audacity to say I was, unlike you, insincere all along. Your hypocrisy here is so utterly laughable, I really can't believe it. Think about it, before you respond, will ya? I say: So f__king what!!! So you spent eight years in an ashram. Give the man a cupie doll. What, you started the journey in the wrong direction and you thought somehow the ashram would set you straight? You didn't have a clue why you should be there but stayed on anyway. What a wimp! And you're still exercising the same gutlessness because you can't even admit for a second that you have any responsibility for having been there as long as you were. Jim said: As for my 'malice-minded spin control', care to elaborate? I say: No I don't care to - you wouldn't get it anyway. Jim said: But really, Credo, 'enjoying it' wasn't what Maharaji set as any standard for staying put. > I say: Sure it was. He's always stressed that one should enjoy K. Many who were not enjoying living in the ashram were encouraged to leave. You just didn't have the guts to leave when it wasn't working for you, and you don't have the guts now to admit it. Jim said: Me for the last time: It's time for you to read the Guru Papers, Archimedes. Those contradictions you've accepted for so long should be telling you something. You're lost, Leroy. Or is it 'found'? Or maybe you're me and I'm you? Or maybe, nothing's certain but everything is? I say for the last time: More cute standup gibberish from Jim. Say bucko why don't you stop trying to be cute, and be a little more respectful of others. I know, why not pretend the other person is sitting in the same room as you, and unless you treat them with common courtesy you could get your head knocked off. It's maybe one way you can overcome your problem Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:11:34 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: A Sap: Regarding: I know, why not pretend the other person is sitting in the same room as you, and unless you treat them with common courtesy you could get your head knocked off. It's maybe one way you can overcome your problem. Jim is combative, but also very sharp. You've been skewered. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:22:57 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Aesop, Do you say that everyone who left Maharaji didn't have the right motivation to begin with? Yes or no? What about his mother and two eldest brothers? (The ones he told us at the Ally Pally in London in 1972 were 'completely realized' and could, any one of them, take over as Perfect Master if need be). If we were in the same room here's what would happen. We would start talking about Maharaji. I would point out your contradictions. You'd try to dance around them. I'd persist and then, as always happens with people not free to think for themselves, you'd get uncomfortable and stop. Believe me, Aesop, it always happens. Always. Your mind just can't talk openly about this fix it's gotten you into. Now, to be a little more specific, you asked me where you'd been evasive. Well, for one, I asked you how you could claim to know that you had the 'right stuff' in light of the following lines he fed us: 1) Beyond our egos, our 'false selves,' we were all the same. 2) Each one of us had a 'sincere thirst for truth.' 3) Each one of us had a dirty, poisonous mind, ready to trick us in a moment into deceving our heart. 4) No one could gauge their own devotion. That was a game only the mind played. Watch out! 5) No one was beyond 'falling.' 6) No 'fallen' premie was beyond redemption. 7) It was all a matter of Maharaji's grace, NOT our own inherent qualities. 8) 'Sincerity' meant, amongst other things, admitting that we didn't even know what 'sincerity' meant. Really, the most 'sincere' thing we could ever do was just drag ourselves to satsang, service, meditation and darshan, REGARDLESS of what our fickle mind wanted. If it liked it, fine. If not, do it anyway. You agree that he taught the first six. Fine then. Forget the last two. How can you say you were any more sincere than anyone lese in light of these 'truths'? You also avoided answering my question about apostate premies or, more interesting, returning prodigal sons. Finally, again, the question of Maharaji's one-time Holy Family. Come on, you understand the question. Deal with it. As for Maharaji encouraging people to leave K or the ashram if they didn't enjoy it, face it, Maharaji said all sorts of contradictory things. I'd be a liar if I pretended to not know what you're talking about. Yes, Maharaji, at times said just what you say he did. BUT you're a liar if you don't admit that he often said just the opposite. Were you at any of the closed ashram satsangs? Maharaji made it very clear that one good reason to not leave the ashram was because we'd basically go to hell if we did. Other times he said the opposite. Typical abuse of authority. We used to have a term for it in the sixties. Here's one for your fair consideration. Maharaji gave even heavier satsang to the initiators. Ever see the secret Initiator Satsang Book? Even us ashramies weren't supposed to see it, it was so heavy. One satsang I recall had Maharaji warn the initiaotrs that they were like glasses raised high off the ground. If they ever 'fell' (i.e. got into their egos, tried to take back their lives) they'd fall and shatter. Of course, a few years later they seemed to start calling his bluff and began leaving anyways. Just like the ashrams. You can only scare people for so long before they start testing the 'uminaginable horrors' a bit. At that point Maharaji changed the whole ball game and it became no big deal for initiators to give it all up and actually try to reclaim their lives in the world. Did he ever explain how his prior threats meant nothing anymore? No, of course not. He's never explained anything. Forget about being in person with a pious fool like you, I'd like to have a little audience with my former Lord and Creator, thank you very much. Of course, he's the biggest coward around. You know that. He used to give Q & A's. Then, when the Q's got a little heavier than he could deal with ('Guru, could you please tell us what happened with Pat Halley, the reporter who threw a cream pie at you?') he closed off. He's a coward, Aesop. Your creepy little cult leader is the epitome of cowardice. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll snap out of it one day. Then you'll see. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:27:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesop's big excuse: 'interpretation' (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: As funny as the Scientologists, with their insistence that the only reason one would ever take issue with any of L.Ron's blather is that one MUST have read past a word one didn't understand, are the premies with their big bugaboo excuse: 'interpretation.' Case in point: Aesop's idiotic complaint that John likened Maharaji to a racoon. Katie called him on playing dumb (as i he'd never heard a metaphor or analogy before!) but he tred to keep a straight face and chalk this up as just one more special example of 'misunderstood' communications: Sure, I'll assume the best. He was making an oblique reference to the raccon as an example of how his thoughts have on occasion been of a violent nature. However you surely must be able to see how one could draw a different conclusion at first glance. You gave him the benefit of the doubt, I didn't. So, perception has a bearing on how we interpret reality, once again. Now why do the premies do this all the time? Could it be that they're desparate to find some way to obliterate the obvious impressions their fat little cult leader once gave when he claimed to be the Lord and Saviour of Mankind? Jim my friend, are you having a bad day? Your negative rhetoric is becoming deafening. You're a piece of work! I sincerely thought John was advocating violence, and upon Katie's input gave him the benefit of the doubt. If that's not good enough for you... well, I could care less if it's not. Sad to say, I don't give premie's the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe you're right. Maybe you really did leap to a very silly conclusion, in which case, I'm wrong. Just goes to show how prone we all are to misunderstand one another, huh? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 21:43:48 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: A Sap, You're forgetting the Holy Name. Regain your center, and stop being so emotional. Focus. It's important for you to appear sincere if you're going to spread maharaji's mission. I've never met Jim so I don't know this for sure... but I'd bet that what he meant about his initial involvement with maharaji was that pursuing knowledge didn't grow out of a time honored imperative. His search for Truth was ignited by a trend but it was nonetheless sincere. I gleaned this from Jim's comments with a little perspective. I think it's clear that his committment was full and strong. You're discrediting yourself to not give him that; disagree with him as you may about other things. Perhaps according to your view he became confused and went off the correct path. But it does you no good to invalidate his dedication to defend your position. Also I really have to question your interest in maharaji growing out of a time honored imperative. Who honored it before you? Your father, grandfather? Did the whole A Sap clan sit around telling Hindu parables? Nahh. More likely it was talk of baseball and Chevy's, or something else. Most premies I knew took drugs to break the boredom and colorlessness that came out of the fifties, and eventually did acid and tried to find a way to stay "there". Underneath the facade were a bunch of confused hurting kids. The enmeshment with maharaji was complex. Maybe the search for Truth in the East is a time honored imperative but in the West, it's been survival for the poor, parties for the rich, and guilt-filled religions for everyone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:37:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: to Jim off topic (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Excuse me Jim - I hate to interrupt this very interesting discussion, but could you reveal your new e-mail address? Thanks! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:40:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: heller@bc1.com To: Katie Subject: Re: to Jim off topic (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Excuse me Jim - I hate to interrupt this very interesting discussion, but could you reveal your new e-mail address? Thanks! Sure, it's heller@bc1.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:51:55 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: I’d like to address what you contribute to the “atmosphere” of this website because it determines how well experiences and information can be shared. I’ve read several comments by you and a few others who seem prone to very quickly shut down any view besides their own, even becoming vicious when anyone challenges. The strategy appears to be to belittle the premie and his or her views using personal attacks, underinformed opinions, questionable logic and, consequently, dubious conclusions. For example, what you are doing in this thread is similar to how you responded to my thread, “Do you understand?” There, in the course of a few paragraphs, you called me wooden, sanctimonious, in need of a video wet nurse, and a joke. You said my points about how Maharaji, Knowledge, and openness on the part of the student were non-sensical without demonstrating what exactly doesn’t make sense, and concluded by writing off everything I said as a version of some wacky sect, again without evidentially supporting your contention. Then consider how you countered a main premise of my essay—that the core of humankind’s spirituality has been turning inward practices. You say, “Your unqualified belief that Knowledge has been practiced by all these miscellaneous groups is a quaint premieism. Yes, it’s possible that some of the techniques were bandied about by more than one supposed teacher . . . That doesn’t make it universal, let alone true.” For one thing, you and I have never met or previously communicated, so what could you possibly know my about my character? And how can you know my belief is unqualified and quaint premieism? Your implication, which is really just more belittling, is that the opinions I advanced in my essay were the outpourings of an ignorant, uninformed, and blindly devoted cult member. But this tactic, reminiscent of McCarthy in the ‘50’s labeling everyone communists to justify his forthcoming castigations, can backfire if the one alleging ignorance is himself uninformed. You expose your unfamiliarity with the history of inner practices by revealing that you don’t know just how universal the practice of turning one’s attention inward has been (whether it’s been called Knowledge, prayer of heart, the prayer of union, inner prayer, samadhi, etc.), and how exceedingly well documented it is. One of the books I cited, Evelyn Underhill’s classic “Mysticism” has been around since the turn of the century and is respected and regularly quoted by religious scholars; and I could have cited dozens more works. Furthermore, not only is my belief qualified, I am qualified to write on the subject having completed my undergraduate degree in world religions in 1976, having studied and researched the subject ever since, and having spent the last seven years working full-time on a book that examines the history of turning one’s attention inward for the express purpose of merging or becoming “one” with the soul (an understanding wife with a great job has allowed me this opportunity). My point is that if two contradictory perspectives are to enter into a dialogue, the meeting ground must be one that allows respect, reason, the rules of evidence, and sincerity to prevail. Yet intelligent, civil discussions do not have to exclude expressions of disillusionment, healthy doubt, or even anger as long as an avenue is left open for truthfully exchanging relevant information. Of course, some individuals at this website may not want to enter into discussions with premies, which is fine, but then another concern arises, a concern that has motivated me and probably other premies to write here. Since the discussions at this site can be read by everyone, including those who are contemplating receiving Knowledge, then shouldn’t truthfulness and accuracy be the rule? It would seem the absolute height of hypocrisy to find ex-premies violating “the standards about honesty and consistency regarding Maharaji” some have accused premies of. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 23:38:14 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: I’d like to address what you contribute to the “atmosphere” of this website because it determines how well experiences and information can be shared. I’ve read several comments by you and a few others who seem prone to very quickly shut down any view besides their own, even becoming vicious when anyone challenges. The strategy appears to be to belittle the premie and his or her views using personal attacks, underinformed opinions, questionable logic and, consequently, dubious conclusions. For example, what you are doing in this thread is similar to how you responded to my thread, “Do you understand?” There, in the course of a few paragraphs, you called me wooden, sanctimonious, in need of a video wet nurse, and a joke. You said my points about how Maharaji, Knowledge, and openness on the part of the student were non-sensical without demonstrating what exactly doesn’t make sense, and concluded by writing off everything I said as a version of some wacky sect, again without evidentially supporting your contention. Then consider how you countered a main premise of my essay—that the core of humankind’s spirituality has been turning inward practices. You say, “Your unqualified belief that Knowledge has been practiced by all these miscellaneous groups is a quaint premieism. Yes, it’s possible that some of the techniques were bandied about by more than one supposed teacher . . . That doesn’t make it universal, let alone true.” For one thing, you and I have never met or previously communicated, so what could you possibly know my about my character? And how can you know my belief is unqualified and quaint premieism? Your implication, which is really just more belittling, is that the opinions I advanced in my essay were the outpourings of an ignorant, uninformed, and blindly devoted cult member. But this tactic, reminiscent of McCarthy in the ‘50’s labeling everyone communists to justify his forthcoming castigations, can backfire if the one alleging ignorance is himself uninformed. You expose your unfamiliarity with the history of inner practices by revealing that you don’t know just how universal the practice of turning one’s attention inward has been (whether it’s been called Knowledge, prayer of heart, the prayer of union, inner prayer, samadhi, etc.), and how exceedingly well documented it is. One of the books I cited, Evelyn Underhill’s classic “Mysticism” has been around since the turn of the century and is respected and regularly quoted by religious scholars; and I could have cited dozens more works. Furthermore, not only is my belief qualified, I am qualified to write on the subject having completed my undergraduate degree in world religions in 1976, having studied and researched the subject ever since, and having spent the last seven years working full-time on a book that examines the history of turning one’s attention inward for the express purpose of merging or becoming “one” with the soul (an understanding wife with a great job has allowed me this opportunity). My point is that if two contradictory perspectives are to enter into a dialogue, the meeting ground must be one that allows respect, reason, the rules of evidence, and sincerity to prevail. Yet intelligent, civil discussions do not have to exclude expressions of disillusionment, healthy doubt, or even anger as long as an avenue is left open for truthfully exchanging relevant information. Of course, some individuals at this website may not want to enter into discussions with premies, which is fine, but then another concern arises, a concern that has motivated me and probably other premies to write here. Since the discussions at this site can be read by everyone, including those who are contemplating receiving Knowledge, then shouldn’t truthfulness and accuracy be the rule? It would seem the absolute height of hypocrisy to find ex-premies violating “the standards about honesty and consistency regarding Maharaji” some have accused premies of. Les, your post made we weep sweet tears of laughter. Thanks so much. Now, let me respond: I’d like to address what you contribute to the “atmosphere” of this website because it determines how well experiences and information can be shared. I’ve read several comments by you and a few others who seem prone to very quickly shut down any view besides their own, even becoming vicious when anyone challenges. I was a premie for many years and before and after steeped myself in the same spiritual teachings you speak of. I've got strong opinions in the area. It's not a new field for me so, forgive me if I get to the point without dallying. But, really Les, how can you say I 'shut down' opposing views? Is that like cutting the phone lines, stopping the presses, locking the doors, brandishing pistols? That would be 'shutting down.' I don't do that. I argue. Forgive me. The strategy appears to be to belittle the premie and his or her views using personal attacks, underinformed opinions, questionable logic and, consequently, dubious conclusions. Now that's not nice! Personal attacks? Yes, mea culpa. Underinformed opinions? Really, Les, shall we compare journals? What are you going to teach me that I don't already know about eastern mysticism? Not sure? Exactly. Maybe you know lots I don't (I doubt it) but you sure don't yet know that you do. Should we continue this in Sanscrit? Latin? Terence Mckenna-ese? Compare libraries? How bout this -- how many girls have you seduced with your 'spiritual' knowledge? That's got to count for something. Where were we? Oh yeah, 'questionable logic.' Hey man, nobody's perfect. You want to question my logic, please do. I'm all ears. Well? For example, what you are doing in this thread is similar to how you responded to my thread, “Do you understand?” There, in the course of a few paragraphs, you called me wooden, sanctimonious, in need of a video wet nurse, and a joke. Sorry, I should have said 'cosmic joke.' Then, of course, you'd have nothing to complain about, right? You said my points about how Maharaji, Knowledge, and openness on the part of the student were non-sensical without demonstrating what exactly doesn’t make sense, and concluded by writing off everything I said as a version of some wacky sect, again without evidentially supporting your contention. If I did that, I'm sorry. It's just that you seemed to be spouting that stupid nonsense talk called satsang, know what I mean? Listen, if you're actually willing to stand by the plain, semantic value of everything you say, and not just beg off as some sort of English-speaking mouthpiece for the eternal, ultimately inscrutable truth, I'll realte to you on those terms. Sorry, friend, I admit it. I'm prejudiced against premiethink. Then consider how you countered a main premise of my essay—that the core of humankind’s spirituality has been turning inward practices. You say, “Your unqualified belief that Knowledge has been practiced by all these miscellaneous groups is a quaint premieism. Yes, it’s possible that some of the techniques were bandied about by more than one supposed teacher . . . That doesn’t make it universal, let alone true.” What's your point? For one thing, you and I have never met or previously communicated, so what could you possibly know my about my character? The quote you just returned doesn't mention your character. What the hell you talking about, boy? And how can you know my belief is unqualified and quaint premieism? Ah! That's my belief. Did I ever suggest otherwise? Your implication, which is really just more belittling, is that the opinions I advanced in my essay were the outpourings of an ignorant, uninformed, and blindly devoted cult member. Yes, that's my belief. I think you could trade in all your spiritual mumbo jumbo for some modern Darwin-oriented scientific learning and be better off immeasurably. But this tactic, reminiscent of McCarthy in the ‘50’s labeling everyone communists to justify his forthcoming castigations, can backfire if the one alleging ignorance is himself uninformed. Oh, get real. This is just really stupid -- oops! sorry, I mean dumb... or, well, what would you call it? What you're saying is just silly. There is absolutely NO analogy to McCarthyism. None. Go ahead, prove me wrong... spell it out. So far you haven't done anything but used the term. You expose your unfamiliarity with the history of inner practices by revealing that you don’t know just how universal the practice of turning one’s attention inward has been (whether it’s been called Knowledge, prayer of heart, the prayer of union, inner prayer, samadhi, etc.), and how exceedingly well documented it is. Oh you prig, don't you know I was in charge of publications for Divine Light Mission ofr all of western Canada for a year or so? Do you ahve any idea what that means? No of course not. I'll tell you. I was in charge of ordering all the English, Canadian and American publications and distributing them to Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Edmonton, not to mention a few smaller centers of 'prachar'. I spent all my time slathering over the many scriptural references to the 'golden bough', the thread of universal blah, blah blah, what have you that the English premies kept coming up with. I am, despoite all appearaances, a former serious Premie Talmudic scholar! Beyond that I read. I read before, after and during my premie internment. The thing is, Les, I've read a lot MORE since then. You, I'd venture to say, have not. One of the books I cited, Evelyn Underhill’s classic “Mysticism” has been around since the turn of the century and is respected and regularly quoted by religious scholars; and I could have cited dozens more works. Holy cow! I had no idea. Really? Religious scholars? Wow. Furthermore, not only is my belief qualified, I am qualified to write on the subject having completed my undergraduate degree in world religions in 1976, having studied and researched the subject ever since, and having spent the last seven years working full-time on a book that examines the history of turning one’s attention inward for the express purpose of merging or becoming “one” with the soul (an understanding wife with a great job has allowed me this opportunity). I'll look forward to reading it. In another time, before ALL my thinking shifted dramatically, I might have relished your research. Now, my dear Les, I'm ready to dismiss it as just so much evidence of universal misguided religiosity. No truth value. You hear me? NO truth value! My point is that if two contradictory perspectives are to enter into a dialogue, the meeting ground must be one that allows respect, reason, the rules of evidence, and sincerity to prevail. Yet intelligent, civil discussions do not have to exclude expressions of disillusionment, healthy doubt, or even anger as long as an avenue is left open for truthfully exchanging relevant information. I agree with one caveat: respect is earned. I don't respect your viewpoint any longer. Been there, done it, don't respect it any longer. Doesn't mean we can't talk, of course. Care to come over to my house? Of course, some individuals at this website may not want to enter into discussions with premies, which is fine, but then another concern arises, a concern that has motivated me and probably other premies to write here. Since the discussions at this site can be read by everyone, including those who are contemplating receiving Knowledge, then shouldn’t truthfulness and accuracy be the rule? It would seem the absolute height of hypocrisy to find ex-premies violating “the standards about honesty and consistency regarding Maharaji” some have accused premies of. I share your concerns. Thanks for sharing them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 23:40:37 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Sorry - screwed up the html tags (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: oops Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 00:24:26 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: A Sap: Regarding: I know, why not pretend the other person is sitting in the same room as you, and unless you treat them with common courtesy you could get your head knocked off. It's maybe one way you can overcome your problem. Jim is combative, but also very sharp. You've been skewered. -Scott Regarding that same quote, I recall a day when Aesop had nothing but ugly words for every post I made on the forum. Maybe you should take your own advice on this one, Aesop. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 01:16:22 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Aesop Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Many who were not enjoying living in the ashram were encouraged to leave. You just didn't have the guts to leave when it wasn't working for you, and you don't have the guts now to admit it. In my experience, this is an absolute lie. Maharaji NEVER encouraged people to move out of the ashram, and, in fact, in ashram meetings he did the exact opposite and also scared the shit out of people who even considered leaving. He said leaving was like "moving into a cesspool" and that he was disgusted is a premie moved out of the ashram. If you believed what Maharaji portrayed himself to be (GOD incarnate, the messiah) you did what he said and didn't make decisions about whether something was "working for you" or not. You just surrendered to his direction, because that's what he said over and over and over. Especially if you were dedicated to, devoted to, and loved, Maharaji. Such was the nature of the cult. Somehow I wonder if you and I were in the same cult. I know he has changed his rhetoric these days, but that doesn't give you the right to be so dishonest in your revisionism of history. But then, I have no idea if you were even there. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 01:26:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Hello Les: I'm going to refrain from defending Jim for the moment, primarily because he doesn't need it. However, regarding: My point is that if two contradictory perspectives are to enter into a dialogue, the meeting ground must be one that allows respect, reason, the rules of evidence, and sincerity to prevail. I think that's pretty accurate, but I'd state it just a little differently. In order for the discourse to work each "side" has to have some confidence that the other is willing, under certain circumstances, to give up the sanctity of their position. All the rest is window-dressing. What I see on your part is someone that can't really afford to wander very far from a set of tenets that are relatively, if not absolutely, insupportable. It is not necessarily a given that stepping away from the sanctity of a belief will compel one to give it up. The best deliberator I know (of the Nobel caliber) is not only willing to step away from his position, but frequently provides a blueprint to opponents of the weaknesses of his arguments. This must seem foolish to you. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 06:34:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: Why do some people become stupid, self-righteous hypocrites after only a few decades with an unprincipled cult leader? Below, I had a typical exchange with Aesop. 'Typical' in that a lot of premies share this mixture of brazen hypocrisy, self-righteousness and evasion. Here's what happened. Aesop said only the 'true of heart' (like him) get Knowledge for the right reason and stay with Maharaji. Someone like me, he offered with no uncertainty, didn't answer the same, genuine call when I got involved. I definitely wouldn't make the grade today. I called him on his pomposity as follows: The difference between you and me, Aesop, is honesty. Your version of premieship is a complete whitewash. Too bad it flies in the face of Maharaji's own long-standing description of the human condition. After all, the Maharaji that I listened to for years said a bunch of things you now contradict: 1) Beyond our egos, our 'false selves,' we were all the same. 2) Each one of us had a 'sincere thirst for truth.' 3) Each one of us had a dirty, poisonous mind, ready to trick us in a moment into deceving our heart. 4) No one could gauge their own devotion. That was a game only the mind played. Watch out! 5) No one was beyond 'falling.' 6) No 'fallen' premie was beyond redemption. 7) It was all a matter of Maharaji's grace, NOT our own inherent qualities. 8) 'Sincerity' meant, amongst other things, admitting that we didn't even know what 'sincerity' meant. Really, the most 'sincere' thing we could ever do was just drag ourselves to satsang, service, meditation and darshan, REGARDLESS of what our fickle mind wanted. If it liked it, fine. If not, do it anyway. Now, apparently, Maharaji's changed his tune a bit and you're jsut singing along. My guess is that this 'born-to-be-mild' theory you're pushing is Maharaji's best way to explain away all those who've left him. The more that leave, the more precious those who stay can feel. It wasn't always like that. It used to be the other way around (still a third description of reality Maharaji played with). When the cult was on the rise, Maharaji could afford to demonize those few who left as 'monmots', people who'd prticularly fallen prey to the evil mind. The rest of us were just plain, ol' regular. As the numbers change, the cult leader rationalizes to throw a mock shroud of virtue over the remaining, dwindling flock. That's all. [The only reason I'm reposting this here is because I hate to see conversations get buried 'below the fold', as it were, and I'd really like to get Aesop's reaction out in the open] Aesop then replied like this: That's all very high and mighty of you to claim that the difference between us is you are the honest one and I'm not, but just where the f__k do you get off challenging my integrity bud? Your post is such a gross example of malice-minded spin control to any onlooker with any sense of objectivity. Not to mention, you don't make any sense. Me now: Aesop, dear friend, who started off impugning others' integrity? I spent eight years in fatty's ashram and you have the audacity to say I was, unlike you, insincere all along. Your hypocrisy here is so utterly laughable, I really can't believe it. Think about it, before you respond, will ya? As for my 'malice-minded spin control', care to elaborate? Specifically, do you take issue with any of the eight propositions I say Maharaji indoctrinated us with? If so, which? Believe me, friend, I'm as sincere now as I ever was. Finally, you say I don't make any sense. Now that hurts! Again, care to explain yourself? I think I make perfect sense -- you claim to have a guage on your instrument panel for 'sincerity' that Maharaji used to say never existed. Moreover, if it did exist, it would be useless becuase, he said, sincerity was HIS gift. We were all losers before the Lord. You've gone back in time and painted everything that's happened in a very negative light even though it wasn't that way for you at one time. If it was, we have to talk about how gutless you were to have stayed when you weren't enjoying it. Me again: Well, Eugene, you've got me there. I've changed my mind! What are you going to do? Shoot me? (I'm not talking to you, Mili). Yes, I used to believe all sorts of things and yes, I even stayed a little longer than I might have. But really, Credo, 'enjoying it' wasn't what Maharaji set as any standard for staying put. What's wrong with you? Weren't you in the ashram or something? Maharaji made it clear to us more than once that the more our minds wanted to leave, the more we should stick it out. (Yet the more we did enjoy ourselves, the more we should stick it out too. Like a snake's gullet, it was a one-way street). As for my honesty I'm not trying to whitewash anything, but attempting to express what I feel happened... at least for me. You clearly interpreted things differently than I did. Me again: Whether you're 'trying' or not, you are, in fact, whitewashing all sorts of stuff. That could be a simple slip on your part, until, of course, it's pointed out to you. Then, if you don't correct the false impression you've made, you're plain, old guilty. But, speaking of interpretation, why not deal with the eight propositions I've mentioned? Did you or did you not hear Maharaji say each and every one of them? Knowledge is like life. At face value it's full of contradictions but when understanding exists the contradictions disappear. As I said before there's no way you would receive Knowledge today coming with the same motivation that you did then. Given that a sound foundation was not built for you, it's no wonder you had difficulties. Me for the last time: It's time for you to read the Guru Papers, Archimedes. Those contradictions you've accepted for so long should be telling you something. You're lost, Leroy. Or is it 'found'? Or maybe you're me and I'm you? Or maybe, nothing's certain but everything is? How much contradiction will it take befroe you realize you've simply been had? Please, deal with those eight propositions. If you don't, I'll take that as proof that you simply can't deal with anything beyond your own meaninglessness. Jim, wasn't there an oil spill from a tanker in British Columbia some time ago? Your desperate struggle with your own mental quagmire here reminds me of those poor, dying birds all covered in tar. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:40:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: I realize it's pretty confusing isn't it? Sorry, Mili. Tell you what, don't bother to read it. Otherwise, read each paragraph first and then figure out if it was me or Aesop. Nah, don't bother. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 13:12:24 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Les Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: I think that discussions on religion with 2 oposing views rarely ends in a common conclusion. It may be this frustration that generates the insults. What else is there really left once you realize no one is going to "jump" to the other's point of view. It reminds me of the Jahovah Witnesses that come in droves to harass people in their homes. Trying to do thier designated "service" to their god. I've come to tell them that we have differnt views and we will never have the same views and they have to leave and not come back and that if I want them I'll call. They said they put me on a no call list and then months later I found they were coming back and INTO my home to harass my mild mannered daughter who did not welcome their advances but was to timid to tell them to leave. I had a $%)*(_ fit! Why do people want to engage in pointless arguments. By the way when they came to our home and my older daughter was there and I wasn't she screamed at them that we worshiped the devil and slammed the door in their faces! Not so timid, that one. Personally I find Les, so far to be a level headed, thoughtful person even though I don't share his love for M and I even think it is misguided. There are real benifits to those aspirants and near the end of their rope premies and of course to we the ex-premies but you current premies, why are you here? What do you expect to gain? Do you think you will save some of us, forget it. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 14:21:43 (EST)
Poster: JW -- Aesop has been here before Email: To: VP Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: VP, do you get the same impression that I do, that Aesop is the reincarnation of a Maharaji apologist who posted on the forum a few weeks back but has attempted to sound (unsuccessfully) a little less nasty under the "Aesop" name? I think the original tag was "A Premie" or something equally original. I think they are one and the same person, given the apparent inability of Aesop to refrain from spiritual condescension, the inability to cloak the nastiness, and the propensity to repeat self-serving parables over and over. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:13:54 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder Message: VP, do you get the same impression that I do, that Aesop is the reincarnation of a Maharaji apologist who posted on the forum a few weeks back but has attempted to sound (unsuccessfully) a little less nasty under the 'Aesop' name? I think the original tag was 'A Premie' or something equally original. I think they are one and the same person, given the apparent inability of Aesop to refrain from spiritual condescension, the inability to cloak the nastiness, and the propensity to repeat self-serving parables over and over. JW, Could be...I hope there aren't two of them out there! VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: VP Subject: Double Trouble!! (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: HO HO HO, oh Vic, that is a nasty thought. So now we know why M does not allow his premies to give satsang anymore. Can you imagine, if they all have the communication skills of the preachy, moral obsessed, Aesop? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John K. Subject: Re: Double Trouble!! (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: John, I swore I was just going to read, no responses, I've made to many stupid mistakes today but I don't know if I've just missed it but I see here that M "decreed" premies no longer to give satsang! How does this thing work now. No lord of the u. No ashrams. No satsang. I'd never heard of all these video shows either. How do premie's do service or is that out to, I doubt that! Do they all just donate a portion of their income? Where do they get a sense of being in a group with other like thinkers or maybe they don't and that is why they are here. Very strange. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:52:06 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Yesterday's answer (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Jim, It still seems to me that your sarcasm, pooh-poohing and desire to win the argument takes precedence over sincerity, reason and the desire to get at the truth. Otherwise, why not talk openly, without preconceived notions? I’m not sure how productive any conversation can be with someone who’s judged me to be a certain way, and argues from his assumptions rather than from interacting with me. If you don’t like the McCarthy comparison, how about those feminists who like to say “men” are like this, and “men” are like that? Being a man automatically makes one guilty of various crimes and misdemeanors. Possibly thinking of me as a premie is a problem for you; if so, maybe you could think of me as a human being who practices something or another. You probably have read in my other comments, and this has been my perspective from the first day I heard of Knowledge and Maharaji, that my sole interest is the practice of merging awareness and soul. That I wanted to learn, and that I have practiced without arrest; as far as I’m concerned, there is nothing else about Maharaji or Knowledge that interests me very much other than his desire and determination to spread Knowledge worldwide. Those people who got sucked into and chewed up by premie insanity in the early days did not include me. I saw it as Maharaji not having acquired sufficient experience with people and organization to act decisively, so I never let it get in the way much, though I fought at times to keep it away from me. After all, if it weren’t for his ambition to spread Knowledge everywhere, there wouldn’t have been the problems in the first place. Besides the fact that no master has ever done it before, the size and complexity of the organizational effort required to do it would overwhelm any inexperienced person, much more so a boy. It may have been a painful period for some people, maybe it’s too bad it happened, but its over now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 18:59:06 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Aesop: For Scott (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Scott, You say, “In order for the discourse to work each‘ side’ has to have some confidence that the other is willing, under certain circumstances, to give up the sanctity of their position . . . I see on your part someone that can't really afford to wander very far from a set of tenets that are relatively, if not absolutely, insupportable.” Why do you see me that way??? Because I practice? For about the umpteenth time since I’ve been addressed at this site, assumptions about how I will reason are pre-shaping any dialogue that might take place. For the record, I’d rather abandon my beliefs than hang onto untruths. Isn’t that how you are? If someone wants the truth, why should he care whether or not it includes Maharaji or Knowledge or anything else? I feel I must trust that the truth holds what is best for me, even it runs contrary to everything I want, or every understanding I have. Really, what possible good can come from false beliefs? But let’s be clear about what “stepping away” means. If every day I kiss my wife, you would not expect me consider propositions in which I must deny that. Years of experience have established the certainty in me that I do indeed kiss my wife every day. If, however, I believe that kissing my wife prevents earthquakes in the Sahara desert, that’s different because it is supposition, and I would “step away” in the face of superior reasoning and/or facts. In relation to these discussions about Maharaji and Knowledge, I know some of the discussion revolves around spiritual concepts - such as an earlier idea I proposed “a true master is absorbed into the creationary reality” - which are ultimately not defensible. They are models that have been used by teachers and saints in the past, but which “make sense” to many spiritually-oriented individuals. I, as student of philosophy, like to play around with these ideas to see if they help explain things, and sometimes they do. However, if you decide you want to press our conversation past what “makes sense,” or past the interpretation of historical and other types of facts, and into the realm of what I really know, then all such hypothesizing must be subject to “stepping away.” On the other hand, I will only consider propositions that do not require me to step away from what I’ve experienced sufficiently to establish certainty in myself. So what can I say with certainty that might have relevance to his website? About twenty-five years ago Maharaji showed me a method for turning my attention inward; I have practiced it virtually every day since then; through practicing I learned it was possible for my awareness to join or “merge” with something deeper inside me (I won’t theorize what that “something” is); my practice, when combined with regularly listening to Maharaji’s instruction, improves significantly over just practicing without listening (I did try it for many years without listening regularly); and lastly, for the last few years my ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain it every day, and sometimes I experience it all day. Now, what might honestly be inferred from that certainty, particularly about Maharaji and Knowledge, is the primary reasoning stance I wish to assume in discussions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 19:24:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Aesop: For Scott (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Scott, You say, “In order for the discourse to work each‘ side’ has to have some confidence that the other is willing, under certain circumstances, to give up the sanctity of their position . . . I see on your part someone that can't really afford to wander very far from a set of tenets that are relatively, if not absolutely, insupportable.” Why do you see me that way??? Because I practice? For about the umpteenth time since I’ve been addressed at this site, assumptions about how I will reason are pre-shaping any dialogue that might take place. For the record, I’d rather abandon my beliefs than hang onto untruths. Isn’t that how you are? If someone wants the truth, why should he care whether or not it includes Maharaji or Knowledge or anything else? I feel I must trust that the truth holds what is best for me, even it runs contrary to everything I want, or every understanding I have. Really, what possible good can come from false beliefs? But let’s be clear about what “stepping away” means. If every day I kiss my wife, you would not expect me consider propositions in which I must deny that. Years of experience have established the certainty in me that I do indeed kiss my wife every day. If, however, I believe that kissing my wife prevents earthquakes in the Sahara desert, that’s different because it is supposition, and I would “step away” in the face of superior reasoning and/or facts. In relation to these discussions about Maharaji and Knowledge, I know some of the discussion revolves around spiritual concepts - such as an earlier idea I proposed “a true master is absorbed into the creationary reality” - which are ultimately not defensible. They are models that have been used by teachers and saints in the past, but which “make sense” to many spiritually-oriented individuals. I, as student of philosophy, like to play around with these ideas to see if they help explain things, and sometimes they do. However, if you decide you want to press our conversation past what “makes sense,” or past the interpretation of historical and other types of facts, and into the realm of what I really know, then all such hypothesizing must be subject to “stepping away.” On the other hand, I will only consider propositions that do not require me to step away from what I’ve experienced sufficiently to establish certainty in myself. So what can I say with certainty that might have relevance to his website? About twenty-five years ago Maharaji showed me a method for turning my attention inward; I have practiced it virtually every day since then; through practicing I learned it was possible for my awareness to join or “merge” with something deeper inside me (I won’t theorize what that “something” is); my practice, when combined with regularly listening to Maharaji’s instruction, improves significantly over just practicing without listening (I did try it for many years without listening regularly); and lastly, for the last few years my ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain it every day, and sometimes I experience it all day. Now, what might honestly be inferred from that certainty, particularly about Maharaji and Knowledge, is the primary reasoning stance I wish to assume in discussions. Les, I'm with you all the way until you try to state the points you deem irrefutable. In particular, I don't agree that you're 'merging with something deeper inside' you. I say you just think you are. A guy by the name of Bobby used to post here quite a bit. He's based his entire current worldview on the assumption that he had a spiritual 'near death' experience. He and I used to to argue a lot. I've read a few things that have persuaded me that there are a several mundane explanations for the alleged NDE's. Bobby used to primp quite a bit about his fierce thirst for truth, his ability to test his own assumptions fearlessly, you know. The one thing he wouldn't do, though, is discuss the scientific studies that countered his philosophy. Maharaji really did a number on us. So did evolution. Evolution, some say, has set us up to indulge in some form of religious fantasy. Maharji, and all other religious leaders, whether intentionally or not, con their troops into thinking they're connecting them with the divine. Are you willing to really look at your 'practise'? It would take the open-mindedness needed to question what you now think is your very immediate 'sensory' perceptions. Well? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 19:37:28 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Yesterday's answer (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Les, I gather from what you said in your post you enjoy, or find fulfilling your practice of meditation and that listening to Maharaji helps you in your practice, which you value. Fair enough. I cannot hope to argue with your subjective experience, and it wouldn't do any good anyway. My question is: how much of your life do you feel you had to give up in order to get that subjective experience? I mean other than the actual time expended practicing? Did you ever live in the ashram? Did you strain your relationships with your family and friends after you became a premie? Did you abandon your career or educational aspirations, or put them on hold for years? Did you turn over all your money to Maharaji? Did you ever go through the process of trying not to think, especially if you experienced doubts? And feel endless of hours of frustration and feeling you were unworthy and incapable of directing your own life, like so many of us as premies did, especially the ones who tried to dedicate to Maharaji 100%? I ask this because I think anything of value has to be looked at in terms of the costs involved in getting that thing of value. In my experience, the internal meditation experience was fine, but Maharaji and all that went along with him just simply cost too much for the value I got from it. Accordingly, people who lived celibate, impoverished, miserable lives in the ashram for years trying to "surrender" are just a little less likely to let Maharaji off the hook, and just accept that all he is about is revealing knowledge and providing some inspiration to practice, which seems to be how you relate to him. If that is what he is about, why did he put us through all that expensive, damaging, miserable, extraneous stuff? And why did he for years preach something quite different from what you suggest, I mean during the years he hardly talked about knowledge or the practice of knowledge, and only ranted about devotion, total dedication, surrender, and loving Guru Maharaj Ji (him). And don't say he didn't do that, because I was there, and I heard it. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have taken what he said literally, or that we should have not believed what he said? How does that line up with his supposed perfect master abilities which he claimed to have? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 19:48:58 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Aesop: For Jim (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Scott, You say, “In order for the discourse to work each‘ side’ has to have some confidence that the other is willing, under certain circumstances, to give up the sanctity of their position . . . I see on your part someone that can't really afford to wander very far from a set of tenets that are relatively, if not absolutely, insupportable.” Why do you see me that way??? Because I practice? For about the umpteenth time since I’ve been addressed at this site, assumptions about how I will reason are pre-shaping any dialogue that might take place. For the record, I’d rather abandon my beliefs than hang onto untruths. Isn’t that how you are? If someone wants the truth, why should he care whether or not it includes Maharaji or Knowledge or anything else? I feel I must trust that the truth holds what is best for me, even it runs contrary to everything I want, or every understanding I have. Really, what possible good can come from false beliefs? But let’s be clear about what “stepping away” means. If every day I kiss my wife, you would not expect me consider propositions in which I must deny that. Years of experience have established the certainty in me that I do indeed kiss my wife every day. If, however, I believe that kissing my wife prevents earthquakes in the Sahara desert, that’s different because it is supposition, and I would “step away” in the face of superior reasoning and/or facts. In relation to these discussions about Maharaji and Knowledge, I know some of the discussion revolves around spiritual concepts - such as an earlier idea I proposed “a true master is absorbed into the creationary reality” - which are ultimately not defensible. They are models that have been used by teachers and saints in the past, but which “make sense” to many spiritually-oriented individuals. I, as student of philosophy, like to play around with these ideas to see if they help explain things, and sometimes they do. However, if you decide you want to press our conversation past what “makes sense,” or past the interpretation of historical and other types of facts, and into the realm of what I really know, then all such hypothesizing must be subject to “stepping away.” On the other hand, I will only consider propositions that do not require me to step away from what I’ve experienced sufficiently to establish certainty in myself. So what can I say with certainty that might have relevance to his website? About twenty-five years ago Maharaji showed me a method for turning my attention inward; I have practiced it virtually every day since then; through practicing I learned it was possible for my awareness to join or “merge” with something deeper inside me (I won’t theorize what that “something” is); my practice, when combined with regularly listening to Maharaji’s instruction, improves significantly over just practicing without listening (I did try it for many years without listening regularly); and lastly, for the last few years my ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain it every day, and sometimes I experience it all day. Now, what might honestly be inferred from that certainty, particularly about Maharaji and Knowledge, is the primary reasoning stance I wish to assume in discussions. Les, I'm with you all the way until you try to state the points you deem irrefutable. In particular, I don't agree that you're 'merging with something deeper inside' you. I say you just think you are. A guy by the name of Bobby used to post here quite a bit. He's based his entire current worldview on the assumption that he had a spiritual 'near death' experience. He and I used to to argue a lot. I've read a few things that have persuaded me that there are a several mundane explanations for the alleged NDE's. Bobby used to primp quite a bit about his fierce thirst for truth, his ability to test his own assumptions fearlessly, you know. The one thing he wouldn't do, though, is discuss the scientific studies that countered his philosophy. Maharaji really did a number on us. So did evolution. Evolution, some say, has set us up to indulge in some form of religious fantasy. Maharji, and all other religious leaders, whether intentionally or not, con their troops into thinking they're connecting them with the divine. Are you willing to really look at your 'practise'? It would take the open-mindedness needed to question what you now think is your very immediate 'sensory' perceptions. Well? Jim, I did not say my experiences were irrefutable by others, only that I know, after some degree of experience, with certainty. I did not say I was connecting with the divine, nor that merging had anything to do with sensory perceptions (I may be misinterpreting your meaning). How exactly can I become open-minded enough to realize I'm just a poor little ol' weak-minded premie, and somehow ignore all I've learned? Do you think merging doesn't take considerable skill? I wonder how much you know, from experience, about the potential for merging. By the way, I am scientifically literate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 20:03:48 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Yesterday's answer (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Jim, It still seems to me that your sarcasm, pooh-poohing and desire to win the argument takes precedence over sincerity, reason and the desire to get at the truth. Otherwise, why not talk openly, without preconceived notions? I’m not sure how productive any conversation can be with someone who’s judged me to be a certain way, and argues from his assumptions rather than from interacting with me. If you don’t like the McCarthy comparison, how about those feminists who like to say “men” are like this, and “men” are like that? Being a man automatically makes one guilty of various crimes and misdemeanors. Possibly thinking of me as a premie is a problem for you; if so, maybe you could think of me as a human being who practices something or another. You probably have read in my other comments, and this has been my perspective from the first day I heard of Knowledge and Maharaji, that my sole interest is the practice of merging awareness and soul. That I wanted to learn, and that I have practiced without arrest; as far as I’m concerned, there is nothing else about Maharaji or Knowledge that interests me very much other than his desire and determination to spread Knowledge worldwide. Those people who got sucked into and chewed up by premie insanity in the early days did not include me. I saw it as Maharaji not having acquired sufficient experience with people and organization to act decisively, so I never let it get in the way much, though I fought at times to keep it away from me. After all, if it weren’t for his ambition to spread Knowledge everywhere, there wouldn’t have been the problems in the first place. Besides the fact that no master has ever done it before, the size and complexity of the organizational effort required to do it would overwhelm any inexperienced person, much more so a boy. It may have been a painful period for some people, maybe it’s too bad it happened, but its over now. Les, You bristle at being treated like 'just another premie' but really, Les, from where I'm sitting you ain't nothing new. From your comments above, you seem to fall into the 'smarter than Maharaji' crowd which, I have to tell you, makes me laugh harder than any of the rest. So, let me get this right -- the young, inexperienced PERFECT MASTER was a little wobbly at first. You could see that but some of us other fools didn't. Unlike you, we got 'caught up in the premie insanity.' Well, first, Les, if you're trying to score any points for honesty here, you won't get far by trying to displace the insanity from Maharaji onto the premies. Should we play the quote game? I could show you a number of quotes where the young, fat Lord himself created and sustained the wildest notions. Not premies, Maharaji. So, should we play that game or are you willing to admit that Maharaji himself led the madness? Your choice. You admit it, get a little more credit for honesty and we move on. You don't, you end up wasting a little more time and looking like... well, like a premie. Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to assume you'll be honest and, without having to go through all these quotes (like the one where Maharaji introduces each issue of AIID with a few sentences explaining that there has never been a time when the Lord of Creation does not manifest in human form to save his true devotees). Instead, you will admit that Maharaji claimed to be God in human form and the saviour of mankind. It wasn't Mata Ji, Bob Mishler, Mahatma X or your local satsang hotshot. It was Maharaji. Take a look at the 'Peace Bomb.' That's just one guy talking. Now, once you've fairly admitted that, you're going to have a real problem. See, Maharaji was clearly WRONG about a lot. Not just small things, either. He obviously had some very strange ideas about who he is, what life's all about and what, specifically, HIS life was all about. 'Perfect Master'? Try very confused little boy. Look, you never trusted him then. You've already admitted that. Others did and you never had the chance to get as self-righteous in your piety as we, the faithful followers of Sat Guru Maharaj Ji. Now that it's SAFE, now that he's not asking you to do anything, you can pretend your not only abundantly pious but also clever and discerning. You don't know how many other poseurs have cropped up just like you since I've been discussing Maharaji on the net these last two years. You think you've got something new to say. I'm all ears but, so far, I've heard nothing original. I say you don't have a soul and your 'merging' is a figment of your imagination. Woudl you be interested in knowing if that's the case? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 20:08:04 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Les Subject: Re: Aesop: For Jim (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Scott, You say, “In order for the discourse to work each‘ side’ has to have some confidence that the other is willing, under certain circumstances, to give up the sanctity of their position . . . I see on your part someone that can't really afford to wander very far from a set of tenets that are relatively, if not absolutely, insupportable.” Why do you see me that way??? Because I practice? For about the umpteenth time since I’ve been addressed at this site, assumptions about how I will reason are pre-shaping any dialogue that might take place. For the record, I’d rather abandon my beliefs than hang onto untruths. Isn’t that how you are? If someone wants the truth, why should he care whether or not it includes Maharaji or Knowledge or anything else? I feel I must trust that the truth holds what is best for me, even it runs contrary to everything I want, or every understanding I have. Really, what possible good can come from false beliefs? But let’s be clear about what “stepping away” means. If every day I kiss my wife, you would not expect me consider propositions in which I must deny that. Years of experience have established the certainty in me that I do indeed kiss my wife every day. If, however, I believe that kissing my wife prevents earthquakes in the Sahara desert, that’s different because it is supposition, and I would “step away” in the face of superior reasoning and/or facts. In relation to these discussions about Maharaji and Knowledge, I know some of the discussion revolves around spiritual concepts - such as an earlier idea I proposed “a true master is absorbed into the creationary reality” - which are ultimately not defensible. They are models that have been used by teachers and saints in the past, but which “make sense” to many spiritually-oriented individuals. I, as student of philosophy, like to play around with these ideas to see if they help explain things, and sometimes they do. However, if you decide you want to press our conversation past what “makes sense,” or past the interpretation of historical and other types of facts, and into the realm of what I really know, then all such hypothesizing must be subject to “stepping away.” On the other hand, I will only consider propositions that do not require me to step away from what I’ve experienced sufficiently to establish certainty in myself. So what can I say with certainty that might have relevance to his website? About twenty-five years ago Maharaji showed me a method for turning my attention inward; I have practiced it virtually every day since then; through practicing I learned it was possible for my awareness to join or “merge” with something deeper inside me (I won’t theorize what that “something” is); my practice, when combined with regularly listening to Maharaji’s instruction, improves significantly over just practicing without listening (I did try it for many years without listening regularly); and lastly, for the last few years my ability to merge has so progressed that I can attain it every day, and sometimes I experience it all day. Now, what might honestly be inferred from that certainty, particularly about Maharaji and Knowledge, is the primary reasoning stance I wish to assume in discussions. Les, I'm with you all the way until you try to state the points you deem irrefutable. In particular, I don't agree that you're 'merging with something deeper inside' you. I say you just think you are. A guy by the name of Bobby used to post here quite a bit. He's based his entire current worldview on the assumption that he had a spiritual 'near death' experience. He and I used to to argue a lot. I've read a few things that have persuaded me that there are a several mundane explanations for the alleged NDE's. Bobby used to primp quite a bit about his fierce thirst for truth, his ability to test his own assumptions fearlessly, you know. The one thing he wouldn't do, though, is discuss the scientific studies that countered his philosophy. Maharaji really did a number on us. So did evolution. Evolution, some say, has set us up to indulge in some form of religious fantasy. Maharji, and all other religious leaders, whether intentionally or not, con their troops into thinking they're connecting them with the divine. Are you willing to really look at your 'practise'? It would take the open-mindedness needed to question what you now think is your very immediate 'sensory' perceptions. Well? Jim, I did not say my experiences were irrefutable by others, only that I know, after some degree of experience, with certainty. I did not say I was connecting with the divine, nor that merging had anything to do with sensory perceptions (I may be misinterpreting your meaning). How exactly can I become open-minded enough to realize I'm just a poor little ol' weak-minded premie, and somehow ignore all I've learned? Do you think merging doesn't take considerable skill? I wonder how much you know, from experience, about the potential for merging. By the way, I am scientifically literate. Your 'certainty' may, in the end, be just a psychological buffer you've erected against the unknown. You say you're scientifically literate. How up are you on modern Darwinism? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 23:28:45 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Robyn Subject: Robyn, On Insults (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Good point about the arguing and insults (and about who is really reaping the benefits here!) VP P.S. Someone in my family ALWAYS lets the Jahovah witnesses in (she even bought their magazine so as not to "insult them"!) I think I need to introduce her to your older daughter:) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 at 01:11:21 (EST)
Poster: Les Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Yesterday's answer again (Re: Aesop: Study in Premie Brain Disorder) Message: Jim, You’re wrong about me falling into the “smarter that Maharaji crowd.” For one thing, I don’t equate experience and intelligence, but also I never thought Maharaji was making a mistake. At the time, I thought it possible that Maharaji was letting things burn out (besides waiting to understand what to do). In any case, I didn’t know what to do about it either except to protect myself from premies. That’s not to say they didn’t need protection from me as well, I just didn’t want to get involved in any religious or guru trips. You don’t have to quote Maharaji to me, I know what he said (not every word of course), and I don’t have a problem with his statements. And not because of blind, stupid faith, but because I believe I understand them. You accuse me of being shallow (at another threadsite) but your interpretation of Maharaji’s statements show someone obsessed with surface matters—short thoughts. It would be ironic for a person impressed by evolution (as you’ve indicated) not to notice the often chaotic elements of nature evolution consistently works with and through to achieve its stunning goals. Why isn’t it possible, then, for the force of evolution to manifest through a human being, and to not concern itself with initial messes out of confidence that in the end evolutiveness will prevail? Are you freaked out at the casualties? Have you noticed that whether its creator or mindless evolution that propels creation, casualties and death are part and parcel of it all? When you communicate, I hear someone taking things personally that have nothing to do with you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 19:43:07 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Student Subject: Arrogance Message: Student, in his perpetual generosity, wrote: >>>People have questioned the notion of "good fury." Obviously >>>doing harm to living or even inanimate objects is not positive. >>>I always feel in retrospect like I should not have allowed my >>>outburst to happen. However, I believe sometimes a person >>>around me needed to see what kind of effect their actions were >>>having on me. Fury can address inconsideration, stupidity, >>>laziness... It is always damaging IMHO unless followed by love, >>>forgiveness, and growth or change in a positive direction. You may have a serious problem with arrogance and you may be dissociating from yourself. If someone pisses you off, it isn't necessarily unloving to get angry, without all sorts of explaining. In fact, it is more likely unloving if you don't get angry, if that's what you're feeling. If you're loving you express what you feel and it's okay. If someone feels hurt it's loving to apologize. But to think you're getting angry at someone for their benefit is arrogance. Perhaps you're having a guru complex, and it's time to change your name to Teacher. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 15:58:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: Where and what is Forum III? Message: It's been brought to my attention that some people on here might not know where Forum III is. For those who don't know WHAT Forum III is - it's a forum created with great effort by our Webmaster Brian (all hail the Web Master) in order to bypass some of the problems that we've experienced with Paradise. Brian wrote and operates the Forum himself (it is independent of Paradise). He's still cleaning up bugs, but people can and are posting on the forum. As soon as it's ready, we hope to move the entire forum to Forum III and close this one down. This should be the link to forum III, if I'm doing it right: Forum III Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 16:01:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Katie Subject: Re: Where and what is Forum III? Message: The link doesn't work right now, but it did before, so I think Brian may be working on the forum. The URL Is: http://www.ex-premie.org/forum3/forum3.cgi Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 16:26:20 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: But expect to see bizarre error messages (Re: Where and what is Forum III?) Message: Forum III is under development, so sometimes it's in an unusable state (i.e. I'm debugging some code that just isn't working right). I've added a way to lock and unlock it today, and have been having to make changes constantly. So it's a bit iffy today. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 19, 1998 at 22:03:28 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Katie Subject: One Caveat about Forum III (Re: Where and what is Forum III?) Message: If you post on Forum III, be aware that it's still under construction and will probably not be archived. Thus, if you want to preserve your messages for posterity, it might be better to stick to this here forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |