Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 8

From: Jun 18, 1997

To: Jul 15, 1997

Page: 5 Of: 5


Scott -:- 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 05:05:41 (EDT)
___bobby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 12:36:36 (EDT)
___Michael -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 15:49:27 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 15:55:02 (EDT)
___PS -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 17:38:54 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 18:15:52 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 18:29:31 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:18:06 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:36:07 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:57:08 (EDT)
___richard -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 00:44:50 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 06:05:52 (EDT)
___Anon -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:17:36 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:53:57 (EDT)
___jhvh junior -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:59:17 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 12:02:47 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 12:23:53 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 14:16:35 (EDT)
___Paul -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 17:06:19 (EDT)
___jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 17:53:25 (EDT)
___jhvh -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 19:45:23 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 20:17:18 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 20:30:02 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 21:27:30 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 21:58:01 (EDT)
___Bobby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 22:38:11 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
___Richard -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 00:47:07 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 06:48:57 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:32:48 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:35:54 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:43:25 (EDT)
___Richard -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 17:39:00 (EDT)
___Richard -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:11:24 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:43:39 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 19:38:58 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 19:48:59 (EDT)
___Jim to Booby -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:35:13 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:40:24 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:54:31 (EDT)
___Jim to BOBBY -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 21:10:38 (EDT)
___Richard -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 22:12:29 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 23:56:48 (EDT)
___brrck -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 01:25:48 (EDT)
___boik -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 01:48:38 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 02:15:06 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 06:00:22 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 16:59:41 (EDT)
___bezerk -:- Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction? -:- Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 18:12:51 (EDT)

some spirit guides -:- that do deliveries -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:14:40 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: that do deliveries -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:43:56 (EDT)

Channels and Psychic -:- and Angels OH MY! -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 22:30:33 (EDT)
___Scott -:- Re: and Angels OH MY! -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:09:45 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: and Angels OH MY! -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:19:23 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: and Angels OH MY! -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:49:17 (EDT)

Scott -:- A Conference Room Pow-Wow? -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 18:50:58 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow? -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
___tom -:- Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 12:28:32 (EDT)
___Scott -:- Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:07:49 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow? -:- Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:06:02 (EDT)

Scott -:- Archive #12 -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 11:52:13 (EDT)

Scott -:- The 'new look' and Archive #12 -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 11:47:15 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: The 'new look' and Archive #12 -:- Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 15:30:03 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 05:05:41 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Is 'Inner Peace' a delusion?
- As we all know, one of M.'s greatest, (and most troublesome), claims to fame was his claim to be able to reveal, 'Inner Peace'. That elusive 'El Dorado', or 'Shangri La', that so many would-be messiahs seem to dangle in front of their eager followers.
- So, now that we have all, (almost all), come to the realization that M.'s peace was the false peace of the ostrich with his head in the sand, pretending that his special messiah will take care of him, I have a question: Is there such a thing as a real and genuine 'Inner Peace' that does not involve self trickery, drugs, or having to die first? Am I deluded to still hope to attain such a state of awareness? Or could those who have given up on ever finding such an inner state be the ones who are out of touch with reality?

- Still seeking.

- Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 12:36:36 (EDT)
Poster: bobby
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
My own personal perspective is that we get "tricked" into walking the spiritual path and that the path is real. It is evident to me that the logical mind will never figure out "reality". Reality is elusive, ever changing and not quantifiable.

Chicanery and trickery is a part of everyday life, even natural systems. Witness the abundance of performances mimicry and camouflage amongst animals, insects and plants in the natural world. Of course humans trick one another all the time. And on the spiritual pathways there is a time honored tradition of trickery, impishness and general clowning around. Appearances deceive.

Anyway, the spiritual path to me is very real and the choices I have made at many junctures have taken me to where I am. I pray daily for guidance. Although I rarely "see" the presence of the Divine, I fairly often have powerful affirming experiences of this presence.

To me there is no ontological objective reality. To maintain that an objective reality is all there is I believe to be delusional.

The experience that Maharaji offered to me in the seventies has been a key part of my path. I am grateful for the gifts and support I received. I do not hold him to be the ultimate "source" of these experience, rather I see him as an instrument just as all phenomena are instruments of what I call wisdom/heart presence expression.

I have choices. I don't regret any of the choices I have made involving choosing Spirit. These choices have sometimes been difficult indeed, but I have developed. Sometimes the experiences involving the greatest personal suffering have been the greatest teachings.

I don't care to debate anyone as to the ontological reality of what I say. It is my conviction that as humans we are all deluded and lost in the dreams of our lives. I agree that it is possible to wake up.

What passes as "inner peace" comes and goes for most of us. For me "inner peace" is a shifting phenomenon. I have a vocation, a calling and I do my best to fulfill this calling. The path had not been easy but it is to use the words of that old trickster Castenada, the "path with heart".
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 15:49:27 (EDT)
Poster: Michael
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I think that 'inner peace' does exist, but I don't think that it is constant. Perhaps we attain it through years of searching, or through extensive spiritual practice, or maybe through just waiting long enough. I have met some aged persons who seem to have attained inner peace; maybe it is a sense of contentment with their place in things or with themselves.

I experience moments of inner peace and contentment, but they are fleeting and temporary at best. I also experience moments of grace (I don't mean this in that goofy premie sense) in which everything is working just as it should, and things click; those moments which the Hopi refer to as being 'on the pollen path.' I have even experienced 'the peace which surpasses human understanding' for short moments, and I am thankful for any of these experiences. I think that sometimes it is coincedence, sometimes sychronicity, and sometimes an experience of God. I, too, will continue to search.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 15:55:02 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
How ironic to see someone use his most elegant language skills and reasoning power to diss rationality.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 17:38:54 (EDT)
Poster: PS
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Just because the only secret 'knowledge' maharaji has is his personal net worth, doesn't mean there isn't a realm ob self-knowledge or awareness, which though not accessible by purely 'rational' means, is never-the-less experiencable.
Rationality is an artificial construct, and highly overated. I think in our rejection of maharaji, we can create a false dichotomy in which anything that doesn't fit a hyper-rational view of the world (which is just another subjective view anyhow), is labeled delusional or unreal.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 18:15:52 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Is 'Inner Peace' a delusion?

That's like asking 'Is contentment a shadow?'. There is no answer to a question framed that way. I suppose you're trying to ask 'Does inner peace exist?'. As opposed to what? Inner turmoil?. Inner war? It's a useless question, leading on a directionless quest to an undefined destination.

- As we all know, one of M.'s greatest, (and most troublesome), claims to fame was his claim to be able to reveal, 'Inner Peace'. That elusive 'El Dorado', or 'Shangri La', that so many would-be messiahs seem to dangle in front of their eager followers.

As long as any person can search for 'Inner Peace' without defining what the actually want, those guys make out like bandits. If inner peace is to be defined as a setting in a fictional work, then 'no, it doesn't exist' outside of the minds of the author and readers.

- So, now that we have all, (almost all), come to the realization that M.'s peace was the false peace of the ostrich with his head in the sand, pretending that his special messiah will take care of him, I have a question: Is there such a thing as a real and genuine 'Inner Peace' that does not involve self trickery, drugs, or having to die first? Am I deluded to still hope to attain such a state
of awareness? Or could those who have given up on ever finding such an inner state be the ones who are out of touch with reality?

I don't know how you can tell there's even a difference between 'M's Peace' and 'real and genuine peace'. People aren't ostriches. We have only our own mental sand to stick our heads into. If you don't define what you want, you can't have it. Period. Inner peace doesn't exist outside of your own ability to define it first. It's not like a real location that you just travel to, 'searching' until you stumble upon it by chance. Some people seem to just like the pilgrim lifestyle. It's got a certain romanticism connected to it by our culture. If inner peace (however you define it) is attainable, can you take it with you? Would you find it there anyway if you didn't bring along your own?

Personally I don't want inner peace. Or sexual satisfaction. I do enjoy the journeying there, tho. Some people just want to be full. Some like to eat. The person who only likes the eating part will always be happier than the person who only enjoys being full, since you gotta eat anyway. It's just life. Live it, don't measure it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 18:29:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: PS
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Just because the only secret 'knowledge' maharaji has is his personal net worth, doesn't mean there isn't a realm of self-knowledge or awareness, which though not accessible by purely 'rational' means, is never-the-less experiencable.
Rationality is an artificial construct, and highly overated. I think in our rejection of maharaji, we can create a false dichotomy in which anything that doesn't fit a hyper-rational view of the world (which is just another subjective view anyhow), is labeled delusional or unreal.
'Rationality is an artifical construct'? 'Hyper-rational'? Kindly explain, professor.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:18:06 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
How ironic to see someone use his most elegant language skills and reasoning power to diss rationality.

You have hit upon a long lived paradox of the beast.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:36:07 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
How ironic to see someone use his most elegant language skills and reasoning power to diss rationality.

You have hit upon a long lived paradox of the beast.
No Chris, I've hit upon proof that the 'argument' against reason is stupid.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 19, 1997 at 20:57:08 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Hi Scott!

An interesting post you put up.
I thought about it today and as I went through my day
I didnt want to refer to any scriptures.
Ed mentioned something that relates, he said the definition of the word enthusiasm is this--- the breath of god within you---. I liked that , I thought it meant --god within--.
either way, I thought , what is 'inner' ?
and the only thing I came up with is Life.
Life is the inner thing. It is the thing, the ocean I am always drinking off. It is like a liquid in a way, in that I can feel it moving its way in me and providing me with the stuff that makes this body a wonderful vehicle of expression, makes this body the experiencing machine that it is.

When I feel it for a while I begin to be really at home here.
I definately get saved from that old feeling of frustration that can really interfere with me enjoying this constant moment of life.
I dont thing I can overstate that last point. Sincerely, discomfort is such a thief. It is the thing that causes so much child abuse, so much marital discord, and a world of suffering. Being in a state of vulnerability to frustration and
disconnectedness,or emptyness or any of the rest (greed,anger,envy,hate,lust,despair,melencoly ect.)
is definately not necessary.
Since two things cant occupy the same space at the same time, If you are feeling the comfortable life that is moving inside us, then from my experience, the other stuff is one step away and thats where it should be.
I feel content. Kabir said something that applys, he said
I hear that the fish in the water is thirsty and that makes me laugh. He is directly referring to us and the fact that the thing we are thirsty for is the air we breath.

It baffles me that even though it is in me, If I dont conciously feel it, I dont feel it! That is a true statement and I dont know why it should be like that. But it just is.

It also baffles me that it gets no respect. People would rather think a million thoughts and be involved with ANYTHING else but the one thing that is our true self.

If its any easier to take, keep in mind that maharaji himself
completely ignored it and in fact discouraged people and gave it a bad name. In all the world there are very few people who get to recognise the value of it and dont get smothered by some of the religious hockum that people are so fond of incorrectly linking it to.
Well I dont know, there is certainly more to say, but I have to get on with my chores, Thanks for providing a way to meet you and the gang. Welcome back PS and BOBBY.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 00:44:50 (EDT)
Poster: richard
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Maharaj ji revealed at least one technique which if practiced extensively and at length reveals the next level of consciousness. It is the nectar technique. It turns the consciousness so deeply within that there is an actual experience of the expanded regions of consciousness. It is not necessarily a peaceful experience. Rudolph Steiner filled in may of the missing pieces to this puzzle for me only after it happened and after I tried to contact Maharaj ji for some help. I knew that I must be experiencing what the point of the whole endeavor was after about ten years of practicing nectar diligently. It is much more than tasting fluid. It is becoming fluid and slipping a part of consciousness into another place.

Maharaj ji never responded when I really needed him. I wonder if he even knows what this technique can do. I don't think so. I think that he would take some compassionate responsibility for the individuals who began to access other dimensions and provide some further guidance as is found in a talk given by Rudolph Steiner entitled The Virgin Sophia and the Christian Initiation. Steiner points out very clearly the seven stages of opening which occur during spiritual catharsis. It involves meeting the greatest fear that exists within each of our psyches. The path toward inner peace passes through a dark night of the soul. This is a very intense experience which can be easily confused with insanity in our present culture.

During two of these powerful openings I experienced periods of intense energy which made it impossible to sleep. I had an awareness of cosmic currents of energy flowing constantly throughout my body and I had a clairaudience, clairsentience, clairnescience, and clairvoyance. I heard everyones thoughts around me. I also heard and saw on another entire level of consciousness which can only be described metaphorically. Everyone that I knew thought that I was insane.

After I had decided that Maharaj ji was not doing his job as I saw it I was faced with confronting these experiences alone. The closest concept which I have found to describe them is Kundalini Rising.

I know that the practice of the nectar technique for several years was directly responsible for these experiences. The premies that I knew looked at me as if I was insane and even had me committed to a hospital where I was blasted out of the experience with halperidol.

One year after the initial experience which was very freightening because of the experience of two coexistent realities I had another experience begin. This time I moved to the woods and let it happen. It was the most glorious six weeks of my life.

I have lived a peaceful quiet life since then, about 6 years ago in total awe of what I saw.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 06:05:52 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Richard Steiner was incorrect.
There are no numbered stages anywhere.
He did not ride the life into those experiences of fear and
disconnectedness, and neither did you.
If you are not feeling the life you are subject to all kinds
of feelings and perceptions and life my come and rescue you during that time and you will think that the rescue is part of the lostness, that one is necessary for the other.
I also have had the experience of seeing what each person was thinking as they came into the room.
and my friends sometimes remind me of the times I could see through walls, I would say---I can see through the wall!
this is what is happening in the room. And they would go check and that is what was happening. I have seen the infiniteness. I used to incorrectly say---everything is infinite!---. But now I say---the infinite is in everything---.
Which is more accurate.
I saw a wall disappear and a glowing ball of energy was floating in space contained in a simple electromagnetic field. Isaid---thats that fission or fusion thing they are looking for--- and a voice said---It stores energy---- I kept looking at it and again I thought---thats that fission or fusion thing they are looking for--- and again the voice said----
it stores energy---.
So I am trying to build the damn thing right now. If you read about it, Well, you heard about it here first.

You picked the wrong technique to specialize in.
There is simple joy and you can have it.
Some people have leaned on drugs to provide a lift.
It has a real downside and is best left in history.
For real adventure, try staying with the ride of your life, what I mean is the ride of the breath, it has no down side.
Death is drumming its fingers on the table, eventually the ride in paradise will come to an end, Chris to me is the
type of guy with hero aspirations, well, the most heroic thing we can do in life is to conquer ourselves. What does that mean? To ride on TOP of all our capacities by riding
with the breath.
Children dont need 7 stages, they are feeling themselves.
Kabir correctly said---At one point in a persons life they forget, and they never remember again--- he is talking about you forgot the feeling inside and that is all you need to remember to regain the best part of childhood. So have a fresh start! Its never to late to have a happy childhood.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:17:36 (EDT)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: tom
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Its never to late to have a happy childhood.
No perhaps not. I had a beautiful childhood..no responsibility...generally just happinesss and innocence (with moments of pain and upset). Dear old Scott pointed out that to him, living in the ashram served to extend his childhood in some way.
I think that may have been some of the appeal for me too.
Unfortunately it turned out that MJ wasn't as attentive, loving or caring Father as my original one. I felt that he was quite remote and unavailable to me, who had become, in effect, his child. He was however sternly Victorian in the manner in which he unrelentingly disciplined us, his cowering and unfortunate charges.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:53:57 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Dear Richard,

What maharaji gives as the nectar technique is an ancient Hindu technique called Kechari Mudra. I believe that Yoganada also gave this technique as part of Kriya Yoga. In the book *Christ Consciousness*, Norm Paulsen, a man who grew up in Yogananda's school in California back in the fifties, describes Kechari Mudra.

I would say that the nectar technique and the ideas of Rudolph Steiner worked for you as doorways to other worlds. Sounds like you had a "spiritual crisis". Spiritual crises come in many forms. All can be taken as gifts if properly handled.

Unfortunately, and as you seem to have experienced first hand, there is not much help or support available in our society for those in spiritual crisis. I know many who have been psychiatrically hospitalized for these experiences. I too was, as you put it, "blasted out of my experience" with psychiatric drugs. Part of my life work is to educate people as to the spiritual nature of some experiences that are labeled psychotic, and to help people who go through such experiences.

I came to Maharaji *after* my spiritual crisis. He really didn't address my spiritual crisis at all. I had to come to terms with this profound experience on my own.

Please stop by my web page *Sacred Transformations* for accounts of my experience and those of others. There is a section on my page called Spiritual Crisis. What I have there so far is only the beginning of what I want to do with the web page.

I'm sure you have integrated much of your experiences on your own. Congratulations. It takes determination and courage to come to terms with such experiences in our culture. Best wishes to you.

Bobby
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 07:59:17 (EDT)
Poster: jhvh junior
Email:
To: richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Hey I like your email moniker
the tetragrammaton indeed!
the Lord comes in many forms

Pops, JC and Smokey
Father, Son and Holy Ghost
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 12:02:47 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Well it's nice to see that you guys learnt a little skepticism in your foolish years with the Pied Piper of Hardwar. God forbid the brain has capacities no one's yet aware of. Wow, that would really fuck up all this spiritual philosophy, wouldn't it?
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 12:23:53 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Actually Jim, I'm a very sceptical person.
And yes, I agree that the brain has capabilities very few are aware of.

It's just that for me, I'm also very sceptical of the ability of "reason" faculties to apprehend the totality of this wondrous universe. In my opinion, based on my own experience reason cannot even touch the dimensions beyond the reefs of consensus reality.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 14:16:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Actually Jim, I'm a very sceptical person.
And yes, I agree that the brain has capabilities very few are aware of.

It's just that for me, I'm also very sceptical of the ability of 'reason' faculties to apprehend the totality of this wondrous universe. In my opinion, based on my own experience reason cannot even touch the dimensions beyond the reefs of consensus reality.
Good argument against reason. I love it!
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 17:06:19 (EDT)
Poster: Paul
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I guess when I call 'rationality' an artificial construct, I mean that it is has no independent, objective reality aside from what we give it. One person's rational behavior is another's irrational behavior. I think we like to label our thoughts, behaviors, etc. as 'rational' because it is comforting and makes us feel secure.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 17:53:25 (EDT)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: Paul
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
'One person's rational behavior is another's irrational behavior' is wrong.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 19:45:23 (EDT)
Poster: jhvh
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: tom
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Tom
"There are no numbered stages anywhere.
He did not ride the life into those experiences of fear and
disconnectedness, and neither did you."

I would have to say that your remarks are very arrogant and that you are ill informed.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 20:17:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Richard,

How do you know your experience was what you thought it was? You say you practised the nectar technique 'dilgiently' for about ten years. Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else? I know you doubt that's the case; I wonder if you acknowledge the possibility. Then, if you do, I wonder how you dismiss it. If you don't, I wonder why your language doesn't reflect it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 20:30:02 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Jim says:

/////Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else?

what are you talking about Jim?
what part don't you understand?

The man clearly speaks of powerful altered-state experiences. I know exactly what he's talking about. I've experienced them myself.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 21:27:30 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Jeez Anon,
I feel sheepish about blabbing about my more outlandish experiences, They are true but I never mention them cause they are private I guess. I believe Richard had those experiences. Just the way he mentioned them.
The three guys helping me make the polyphase energy thing think I just thunk it up. Which is how I plan to leave it.
Sorry about your dad. You were lucky to have a talkative father. You probably really knew him. You missed time with him but Maharaji missed 19 years with his mom. It was a real shock for him to realize that he loved her and had banished her and now it was too late. That was the real wake up call for him. He has changed quite a bit. I am not sure he will relax and stop wanting people to view him any particular way and just spread the info to who wants it.
And I dont know if he will relax and just be a guy and
not be venting anger on the volunteers. I know he is evolving and am I nuts? I have friends that want knowledge and I would be glad to see them have it and I dont know who else will show it to them. Why cant Maharaji fully come out of the fog? I mean I work with three guys that are going to see maharaji in ny in july because they want what I got. Which to them is a solid feeling and the stuff that brings. And they are updated on the fact that he is not anybody special. I mean they know
quite a bit of my latest changes. Still, they are willing to get knowledge from a imperfect person. Ed said he doesnt think the premies at the video events are very with it but that he knows my family life and work life and he knows
that the knowledge is the only thing I have in my favor
and he sees how that makes me sail through happily.
He said that yesterday.
What can I say? I dont want to start playing knowledge revealer. All those guys in history that did that seem to be
plagued with problems that I dont want. If scott starts putting the knowledge on the net 24 hours a day I am going to run for cover. God is a very different employer
I dont want to get near that odd game of his. What do you think anon? The track record of messiah types spooks me. They do some good but they leave a nutty religion every time. Talk to me anon, I miss your in depth analysis.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 21:58:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Jim says:

/////Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else?

what are you talking about Jim?
what part don't you understand?

The man clearly speaks of powerful altered-state experiences. I know exactly what he's talking about. I've experienced them myself.
Bobby, let's talk about what we really know. The brain is a wonderful and powerful organ in our body which we barely understand. Maybe, just maybe, it's responsible for drumming up what we've traditionally considered 'spiritual' experiences. Anyone who believes there really are 'spiritual' experiences, besides what the brain hobbles together, has a seemingly endless grab bag to pick from, most options inconsistent with one another. Do you believe that Jesus guides the pope? Why not? The pope says he's experienced it. How about Robert Schuller? No? Not your cup of tea? Well you better be prepared to explain that to a whole lot of people who say that Robert Schuller has definitely guided baby Jesus into their hearts? And on, and on, and on.

Okay, so some think they've had 'profound' direct experiences. How do you separate them from the victims of profound illusions? By their jargon? What authority (besides the Bible of course) can you turn to? There's just a whole lotta shakin' going on and I, for one, favour the 'tricky brain' theory. Sure I've got no proof BUT, as you must agree, you don't either.

YOU say 'The man clearly speaks of powerful altered-state experiences' Sure, he believes what he's talking about. So what? Anyways, why didn't you answer my question above? DO you think it's possible that all this stuff is just illusion. Yes? No? I don't know? Maybe?
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 22:38:11 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
You are right. Science is wonderful. Science knows quite a bit about the brain. This is the decade of the brain. Science declares it is close on the molecular causes of all sorts of "brain disorders".

[As an aside I must say that I have seen again and again the horrific abuses of humanity in the name of medicine and psychiatry. This is the pragmatic side of the wonder drugs of molecular neurology. Horrible, horrible, destructive side effects. Not in all cases, but in many.

In psychiatry, spirituality is most often anathema. Folks experiencing spiritual phenomena are for the most part zapped stupid with high doses of drugs. It happened to me.]

Your bottom line is point-to-able proof. Molecular/energetic interaction. Awareness is a chemical reaction.

I have experienced otherwise. I have experienced awareness outside of my body.

You expect proof. I can't give it. How can I describe what is beyond form?

You say what I experienced during my near-death is illusion, or brain disorder. I say what I experienced was/is profoundly real, a wholly other dimension. I have no proof. You expect proof. And on and on we go.

I say all we experience is illusory. I can't prove it. I can point to words written in texts referring to non-ordinary states of awareness from many cultures in multiple times and places.

All of your proof is in the domain of measurable phenomena. I say I have experienced a state beyond time and space. Over and over I've read similar accounts of these sorts of experiences.

How can I measure what is beyond measure?

I suppose you propose time and space, the assumptions of a thing to be measured are fundamentally real. Then you are a fundamentalist. You will accept nothing as possible beyond your conceptual framework.

By the way, when I asked if you had read Robert Anton Wilson, you replied that you did. Your answer seemed to purport that you were well familiar with his work. What exactly have you read?

Illuminatus Trilogy?
Shroedinger's Cat?
Prometheus Rising?

Virtually the whole of some of his works deal with the illusory nature of phenomena. Have you read Wilson's cites and essays of the often precarious logic of Sagan and CSICOP and various other scientific fundamentalists?

You caught me in a spritely mood tonight. Usually these sorts of pontifications and word games appear tiresome and boring. I'm not going to prove anything to you. And probably all I'll get back is more "prove it" demands.
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Date: Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I like the statement that "air is not really hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and all the other molecules, it is just air" .

In fact, our rationalizations are our models of what we are trying to understand.

Now if science keeps peeling the onion skins of the mind what will they find?

Is the Universe only infinite in the outward direction?

CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 00:47:07 (EDT)
Poster: Richard
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Richard,

How do you know your experience was what you thought it was? You say you practised the nectar technique 'dilgiently' for about ten years. Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else? I know you doubt that's the case; I wonder if you acknowledge the possibility. Then, if you do, I wonder how you dismiss it. If you don't, I wonder why your language doesn't reflect it.
Jim
I am a bit taken aback by the certainty with which both yourself and Tom express yourselves. Believe as you will. I expressed myself in humility and for the sake of sharing. I have seen large numbers of friends with every spiritual book and concept that exists on their shelves and in their heads including the concepts which Maharaj ji proliferates.
There have been many times upon this earth when knowledge of the higher worlds was understood to be a human potential. You sound very much like a psychiatrist in your effort to have your questions answered. As your friend who calls himself Maharaj Ji has said "find out for yourself" but do not try to comprehend nor criticise that which you have not experienced for you may one day have to eat the bitter words of your own harsh judgement.
I owe you no rational logic nor answer. I simply offered a story. Deal with it in whatever manner you what you will.
If it ruffles your rational feathers and arrogance so be it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 06:48:57 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: jhvh
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Somebody did some early scripture research I see.

Well, If you ride a train that goes from hartford to new york,
you wont end up in India.
In the same way, If you are conciously feeling your life you wont end up in fear or strange wierdness and people dont think your insane no matter how out of the ordinary your experiences get.

It just flat out wont happen.
Its the safe place.
Its the ride that children safely ride. And when they wake up from a nap that is really them feeling thier life, They are really incredible to be with. All the people in the room love to watch a vibrating child. Even old frozen lifeless people
become happy just watching a small child who is close to his life. The child is in the kingdom of heaven according to a popular messiah named----hmmm, I think I fergot his name.
Kabir might have been a messiah, but his religion petered out in the face of his writings probably.
he said--can you follow your breath like a sleeping baby?---
I say I want to !
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:32:48 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Bobby, why must you always overstate things? To wit: 'You will
accept nothing as possible beyond your conceptual framework.

Sure, it's that [xxyxyxyxyx]. But, if you recall, I asked you if you agreed that it was possible that so-called spiritual phenomena are illusions. Can't you answer that? Really, for a guy who says: 'all we experience is illusory' I'd think that was an easy one.

As for all the harm that science has caused, you're way out of line and you know it. People have been bad, cruela nd stupid no matter what their level of technology. That's neither the fault of the technology nor the science that fostered it. Indeed, religion, on the other hand, has bred so much strif in it's name. That's worse.

Wilson? I've read a bunch of his essays here and there, and have this Wilson reader around here somewhere. It's got a smattering of his stuff from the books you mention and other s. He's clever, poetic, sometimes apparently visionary and stimulating and sometimes full of shit. What point of his, in particular, do you want me to consider?

I think I'll do a web search now for the Sagan article you mention. What about it?
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:35:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I like the statement that 'air is not really hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and all the other molecules, it is just air' .

In fact, our rationalizations are our models of what we are trying to understand.

Now if science keeps peeling the onion skins of the mind what will they find?

Is the Universe only infinite in the outward direction?

CD

Chris, it's comforting to see that your 'know nothing'ness extends to the world at large as well as your personal life. How romantic.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 15:43:25 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Richard,

How do you know your experience was what you thought it was? You say you practised the nectar technique 'dilgiently' for about ten years. Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else? I know you doubt that's the case; I wonder if you acknowledge the possibility. Then, if you do, I wonder how you dismiss it. If you don't, I wonder why your language doesn't reflect it.
Jim
I am a bit taken aback by the certainty with which both yourself and Tom express yourselves. Believe as you will. I expressed myself in humility and for the sake of sharing. I have seen large numbers of friends with every spiritual book and concept that exists on their shelves and in their heads including the concepts which Maharaj ji proliferates.
There have been many times upon this earth when knowledge of the higher worlds was understood to be a human potential. You sound very much like a psychiatrist in your effort to have your questions answered. As your friend who calls himself Maharaj Ji has said 'find out for yourself' but do not try to comprehend nor criticise that which you have not experienced for you may one day have to eat the bitter words of your own harsh judgement.
I owe you no rational logic nor answer. I simply offered a story. Deal with it in whatever manner you what you will.
If it ruffles your rational feathers and arrogance so be it.

This was the funniest post I've read in a while. Let's get this straight -- I ask you if you don't think that maybe, just maybe, you're fooling yourself. You then question my own certainty. Whether or not you 'owe' me a rational answer, I wonder if you can put one together. Well, forgive my arrogance. There I go again I guess.

That's what floors me about so many of you 'spiritual' types. You indulge in a level of hypocrisy that's so ludicrous I can't help but think it's part and parcel of your ideology. And why shouldn't it be? Any belief system that scoffs at logic when confronted with inconsistencies lacks any self-correcting mechanism. Too bad.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 17:39:00 (EDT)
Poster: Richard
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Richard,

How do you know your experience was what you thought it was? You say you practised the nectar technique 'dilgiently' for about ten years. Don't you think it's possible that you whipped yourself up a feverish smoothie of expectations and not much else? I know you doubt that's the case; I wonder if you acknowledge the possibility. Then, if you do, I wonder how you dismiss it. If you don't, I wonder why your language doesn't reflect it.
Jim
I am a bit taken aback by the certainty with which both yourself and Tom express yourselves. Believe as you will. I expressed myself in humility and for the sake of sharing. I have seen large numbers of friends with every spiritual book and concept that exists on their shelves and in their heads including the concepts which Maharaj ji proliferates.
There have been many times upon this earth when knowledge of the higher worlds was understood to be a human potential. You sound very much like a psychiatrist in your effort to have your questions answered. As your friend who calls himself Maharaj Ji has said 'find out for yourself' but do not try to comprehend nor criticise that which you have not experienced for you may one day have to eat the bitter words of your own harsh judgement.
I owe you no rational logic nor answer. I simply offered a story. Deal with it in whatever manner you what you will.
If it ruffles your rational feathers and arrogance so be it.

This was the funniest post I've read in a while. Let's get this straight -- I ask you if you don't think that maybe, just maybe, you're fooling yourself. You then question my own certainty. Whether or not you 'owe' me a rational answer, I wonder if you can put one together. Well, forgive my arrogance. There I go again I guess.

That's what floors me about so many of you 'spiritual' types. You indulge in a level of hypocrisy that's so ludicrous I can't help but think it's part and parcel of your ideology. And why shouldn't it be? Any belief system that scoffs at logic when confronted with inconsistencies lacks any self-correcting mechanism. Too bad.

When this happens to you, you question everything and everyone. You are in a rather bizarre state where you do not know what is real and what is not. You know that you are experiencing a state which might be referred to as insanity and you wonder if you are going to be able to hold it together at all. It no longer matters what you once thought was real. Had I not had at least some spiritual training I would not have had a clue what was going on.
This is what is amazing about the experience it was ten thousand times more real than normal life is.

It was so powerful that it was scary.

Did I whip myself into a fenzy and just pull it out of the recesses of my own mind. Who knows? Did I just pretend that it happened. Who knows?

All that I know is that I would give anything to be in that condition at will and under full control. I would truly appreciate friendship with others who had had their minds blown into a state of absolute humility. There is a movie in which Charleton Heston plays Moses. When he comes down off the mountain he looks like an absolute maniac. I doubt that my experience was that intense and I for sure don't want to pretend that it was in anyway parallel. All that I wanted to say was that I am a fairly genuine grounded person who has seen something that was just phenomenal. Just beautiful. I saw it as a result of practicing Maharaj ji's techniques, one of which in particular became a bridge to a less well formed world, a less familiar world. I do not know the laws of that world are, but I do know that the laws of this world do not encourage experiencing that world. Perhaps I went insane. Perhaps I am a mentally defective human being. All of that is possible.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:11:24 (EDT)
Poster: Richard
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Science attempts to explain anything we observe in terms of scientific principles that are in turn explained by deeper principles. Following this chain of explanations, we are led to laws of nature that cannot be explained within the boundaries of contemporary science. If science is to fully explain that which it seeks to explain, then the boundaries of science must change. If it does not, science, even at its best, will always remain incomplete.

Although current science does not understand the cause behind the creation of the universe, one thing is for certain. Whatever that cause is, its ESSENCE must underlie all phenomena of the universe. This statement needs no argument. It is self-evident. Since that is the case, then it is up to us to take the steps necessary in becoming conscious enough to observe that essence.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:43:39 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I like the statement that 'air is not really hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and all the other molecules, it is just air' .

In fact, our rationalizations are our models of what we are trying to understand.

Now if science keeps peeling the onion skins of the mind what will they find?

Is the Universe only infinite in the outward direction?

CD

Chris, it's comforting to see that your 'know nothing'ness extends to the world at large as well as your personal life. How romantic.

Jim, You think you know what you don't know. Cute.

So what is the value of PI and when will you die?

CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 19:38:58 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I like the statement that 'air is not really hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and all the other molecules, it is just air' .

In fact, our rationalizations are our models of what we are trying to understand.

Now if science keeps peeling the onion skins of the mind what will they find?

Is the Universe only infinite in the outward direction?

CD

Chris, it's comforting to see that your 'know nothing'ness extends to the world at large as well as your personal life. How romantic.

Jim, You think you know what you don't know. Cute.

So what is the value of PI and when will you die?

CD

Stupid argument. There's got to be a name for it somewhere amongst the other famous bad tricks. You point out that I'm not God (i.e. don't know everything) therefore, I suppose, I'm no one to criticise your own thinking -- or lack of it. Isn't there a name for this? There should be. Call it the fallacy of the romantic ostrich. When someone accuses the ostrich of denying common knowledge, the ostrich scrawks back 'what? you think you know it all, do you?' To which, the other replies 'no, stupid, I might not know everything but I know enough to tell you you've got your head in the sand.'

Here, Chris, your warm denial of the simple bit of scientific knowledge that air is so and so rather than 'just air' is a blatant dive into ignorance. How silly of you to accuse me of posturing as a know-it-all just because I claim that there are some things that you and I both know, whether you find it cuter, as you put it, to pretend otherwise.

But then, you've never been one for really looking at things have you? Your questions to me fall on deaf ears Chris and why shouldn't they? You've disregarded so many of my own that you're not taken seriously by anyone here as far as I can tell. But that's okay, isn't it? If that's what it takes to follow Maharaji, then that's what it takes. So be it. It's just that much funny when you start asking what you think are your own pointed questions. Who in the world do you think you are that you could get away with such glaringly inconsistent behaviour?
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 19:48:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Science attempts to explain anything we observe in terms of scientific principles that are in turn explained by deeper principles. Following this chain of explanations, we are led to laws of nature that cannot be explained within the boundaries of contemporary science. If science is to fully explain that which it seeks to explain, then the boundaries of science must change. If it does not, science, even at its best, will always remain incomplete.

Although current science does not understand the cause behind the creation of the universe, one thing is for certain. Whatever that cause is, its ESSENCE must underlie all phenomena of the universe. This statement needs no argument. It is self-evident. Since that is the case, then it is up to us to take the steps necessary in becoming conscious enough to observe that essence.
Richard, I'm not sure what your big proclamation here is all about. Are you? What do you mean by 'science' and 'scientific principles'? What do you call the 'boundaries of science'? How do you suggest they 'change'?

Without a little backup your statement doesn't make much sense to me. What's this 'essence' you're talking about that's behind everything? You sure it's there? Is it, by chance, chi? How 'bout Krishna? I heard he was everywhere and all. No? How 'bout the Holy Name? Hmm? Maybe? Baby Jesus, perhaps?

Come on, Richard, if this is something you know and we don't it's not very nice to keep us guessing. I'm sure there are a lot of nice folk in the so-called 'scientific' community (pshaw!) who'd love to get a little closure and move on with their lives and your holding out sure doesn't help things. Compassion, my good man, compassion.

By the way, do you have any other 'self-evident' big statements that 'need no argument'? I got a little wobbly-kneed when I read that and so did my girlfriend. (I found it scary but she kind of liked it! Oh no!)
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:35:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim to Booby
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Bobby, I've spent a little time reading excerpts from R.A.W. stuff on the web and can tell you now I'm not impressed. Puerile? Is that the word? Yes, I think so. Wilson is a joker. He's made a living playing to those who buy his 'scruffy but brilliant' iconoclast role. But, on closer examination, he really doesn't have much to say.

Take, for example, his defense of E prime. Now that's one of the stupidest proposals I'm aware of and, bless his heart, Wilson does nothing to advance it. (For those who don't know, E Prime is this dumb idea someone cooked up for eliminating the transitive verb, 'to be', from language. So one says 'Maharaji appears to be a fraud' rather than 'Maharaji is a fraud.' It's supposed to free up the mind from excessive compartmentallizing but of course it's just window dressing. Indeed, no less a publication than the earlier-mentioned Skeptical Inquirer [well, I mentioned it to a friend] has a good article debunking this ill-founded notion).

So, anyway, what's your big Wilson point you wish to convey? There's still a sucker born every minute?
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:40:24 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
There is a subtle understanding of the "true" nature of "air" that you are overlooking.
You seem to be basking in the model of reality.
A bit like that old story of stopping at the road sign pointing the way to the destination instead of reaching the destination.

I like the example of PI and the square root of 2 because to really understand what their values are takes a journey towards the nature of infinity.
They are simple examples of a trick that God has played on us.
Or looking at it another way, they are simple examples of a beautiful foundation on which existance resides.

I see no reason why the true nature of consciousness should not be a similar sort of puzzle.
I do experience that it is.

I have nothing against models, logic and reason.
They certainly can be very useful.

Now maybe you can tell me the reason why E = M * C ** 2 is valid.
Now that is some formula !

Did you say that you like to eat ostrich ?

Have fun at your band performance.

CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:54:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
There is a subtle understanding of the 'true' nature of 'air' that you are overlooking.
You seem to be basking in the model of reality.
A bit like that old story of stopping at the road sign pointing the way to the destination instead of reaching the destination.

I like the example of PI and the square root of 2 because to really understand what their values are takes a journey towards the nature of infinity.
They are simple examples of a trick that God has played on us.
Or looking at it another way, they are simple examples of a beautiful foundation on which existance resides.

I see no reason why the true nature of consciousness should not be a similar sort of puzzle.
I do experience that it is.

I have nothing against models, logic and reason.
They certainly can be very useful.

Now maybe you can tell me the reason why E = M * C ** 2 is valid.
Now that is some formula !

Did you say that you like to eat ostrich ?

Have fun at your band performance.

CD

Chris, thanks again. By the way, what exactly is the 'subtle understanding of the 'true' nature of 'air' that [I am] overlooking'? I'm just basking in so much reality here I can't think straight. And Einstien? Good point, you clever one, you!
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 21:10:38 (EDT)
Poster: Jim to BOBBY
Email:
To: Jim to Booby
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I just noticed my unintentional misspelling of your name. Honestly.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 22:12:29 (EDT)
Poster: Richard
Email: jhvh@geocities.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Jim

It has been an interesting exchange, encountering your challenging questions and remarks, telling me to come on etc. as of I were some kind of idiot child. I want to thank you for your deep personal investment in my case and wish you the best with your agenda. You are obviously a very advanced human being who probably has the answers to everything and is capable of helping everyone else see the error in their ways. You have certainly helped me see the error of mine.

fini
Richard
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 23:56:48 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
Jim

It has been an interesting exchange, encountering your challenging questions and remarks, telling me to come on etc. as of I were some kind of idiot child. I want to thank you for your deep personal investment in my case and wish you the best with your agenda. You are obviously a very advanced human being who probably has the answers to everything and is capable of helping everyone else see the error in their ways. You have certainly helped me see the error of mine.

fini
Richard

Don't mention it. The spiritual path is like that. Everywhere you turn there's someone warning you about a mad elephant coming your way. Anyways, it was nothing. Glad I could help.

P.S. Do you think you could send me a little money? Whatever you feel comfortable with. I'd rather have a million dollars from someone who really meant it than just one from a doubter. Think about it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 01:25:48 (EDT)
Poster: brrck
Email:
To: Jim to BOBBY
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I like your unintentional misspelling.
I think I am going to mess with my name for a while.
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 01:48:38 (EDT)
Poster: boik
Email:
To: Richard
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I really liked your comment about freindship,experience and humility.
Your comments about the essence were hitting an interesting area that , well, give me some feedback on this thought. Creation seems to be all motion and space (according to phyics types). Well some things are alive in this vibrating phenomina, and the life seems to be in the breath, and since the breath is a motion also, the leading
edge of motion is time, and so I think I would be in good form to be riding the time's leading edge, thereby being 'in the moment' and vibrating with the life vibration that rewards me with mental stability and good feeling.
I cant imagine any way to connect to or in some way contact smaller vibrating phenomina(I know that spelling is wrong).
I know some people think a mantra is supposed to just sort of slip you into some cosmic vibration, but I think a mantra is one of gods ways to distract us off his home address.
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 02:15:06 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: boik
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
You are made out of a subtle vibration.
You just have to become extremely stilled to experience it.
A bit like focusing in on a distant object in the sky that you can not see at first or experiencing a hidden picture in a noisy pattern.
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 06:00:22 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I want to change my vote on your idea a while back where you proposed a touchy-feely forum. You know, the one where people debate tthe existence of 'Inner Peace' and other subjects best left to insightful TV documentaries like 'Unsolved Mysteries'. I vote yes now. Even though I know that you already created that forum, and that you posted this here instead, and that after posing this 'question' you never even took part in the 'debate'. I'm only changing my vote on this because I'm hoping to be saved from future brain-dead threads like this. God, I hope this works...
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 16:59:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
I want to change my vote on your idea a while back where you proposed a touchy-feely forum. You know, the one where people debate tthe existence of 'Inner Peace' and other subjects best left to insightful TV documentaries like 'Unsolved Mysteries'. I vote yes now. Even though I know that you already created that forum, and that you posted this here instead, and that after posing this 'question' you never even took part in the 'debate'. I'm only changing my vote on this because I'm hoping to be saved from future brain-dead threads like this. God, I hope this works...
The voice of evil, Brian, pure evil.
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Date: Sun, Jun 22, 1997 at 18:12:51 (EDT)
Poster: bezerk
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: 'Inner Peace', fact or fiction?
Message:
ok I'm game, I'll give it a chance.
Are you referring to the feelings?
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:14:40 (EDT)
Poster: some spirit guides
Email:
To: ooops!
Subject: that do deliveries
Message:
A former premie that I know well has traded in feeling
herself for talking to spirit guides and they are always talking back. She is available for guidance for a fee.

Well, this is another true story, she was pregnant and her geynacologist (who I know) , said he wanted her to have it in the hospital.
Well her group of spirit guides said NO and so they all were with her at home for the home birth and guess what?
the baby died during delivery and the spirit guides didnt have a clue.

Illusion can kill you. I know three premies that committed suicide shortly after leaving the ashram, and mira bai in
miami who committed suicide after being banned from events ( basically just for being a real gopi)
I was quite a gopi but I was a guy so I wasn't so prone to emotional highs and lows like she was.

Sorry to be starting this fresh clean site with tough stuff but this web site is for me too
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:43:56 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: some spirit guides
Subject: Re: that do deliveries
Message:
God, that's quite a story. Were her spirit guides licenced? Some aren't and look at the kind of damage they can do. No, I shouldn't joke about this one, which is truly tragicomic. Did this disaster affect her beliefs much? At all?

By the way, who was this mirabai? I remember the one Maharaji used to joke about -- that was a joke wasn't it? -- the one who did the endless striptease of faith. AND I think I even remember a premie who went by the name. But maybe not. Who was she?

It'd be inteesting to count up all the premie suicides. I know half a dozen or so myself including one good friend, Dave Wiener, whom I've emntioned several times. Funny how funerals weren't part of mahatmaiji's duties. I never saw any short, fat guys in dark glasses at the back of the corwd either.
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 22:30:33 (EDT)
Poster: Channels and Psychic
Email: ask your channel
To: Clairvoyants
Subject: and Angels OH MY!
Message:
In western mass, there are thousands of channels
and psychics and people who have angels and poeple who talk with god--and god talks to them!
I know one guy who channels for saint paul. ed has him over for dinner sometimes.
I know others who have spirit guides and they are always talking to them and getting verbal responses.
at my sat morning mens breakfast some of the guys insist on saying --and god told me---.

Well, here is something that reveals how effective those
divine communication methods are.

In western mass, 3 brothers and thier 2 cousins are
sadist/masocistic leather boys and they abducted an
innocent partially retarded 22 year old and spent
3 months systematically tortureing this boy to death.
You will hear about this case in the media when the
court cases are done and all the info is out.

My point is that for three months no psychic managed to
hear his pleas for help.
No channeller was tuned in enough to pick up the signals
and the so called disembodied spirits were of no use,
for all the channelling that went on for those three months in that area nobody was of use.
No angels managed to find it in thier hearts to tell those that they talk to about this kid and send them to that address.
And all the guys at my mens breakfast that talk to god and get replys, well, god himself wasnt aware of this kid I guess.
Its bad enough I thought maharaji was the lord for decades
but all these people are daydreaming as well.
Its a vicious little story but its true and its real revealing to me. Needless to say all my cosmic freinds are going to get it from me big time. At least now I have the ammo to keep these people from demanding my respect.
Tom
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:09:45 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Channels and Psychic
Subject: Re: and Angels OH MY!
Message:
Dear Tom,
- True, isn't it a bit crazy to rely on angels and that like to swoop down out of heaven and end all of the sufferings of the world? I guess they could probably feed all the hungry and provide shelter for the homeless too while they were at it, why not?
- Still, I do tend to think that the 'inner peace' you have talked about so much is real, and is capable of steering us to a place of greater 'outer peace' as well.
- Something tells me, (could it be my acute psychic abilities?), that those sado-leather boys out there in west Mass. weren't exactly the meditative types.
- So, the question remains, what exactly is 'inner peace', and if there is such a thing, how to get there?

- Scott

PS: By the way Tom, I saw you there in the conference room and waited there for you while I wrote this. I guess you didn't see me.
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:19:23 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: and Angels OH MY!
Message:
rats, I was typing and I missed you.
but when I went to type it wouldnt enter in.
Ill have to read the directions.
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 23:49:17 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Channels and Psychic
Subject: Re: and Angels OH MY!
Message:
Good point , Tom. Psychics -- of course I don't need to warn you -- beware!
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 18:50:58 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A Conference Room Pow-Wow?
Message:
Anyone up for meeting in the Conference Room this Saturday at 1pm EDT, I'll be there, hanging out in cyberspace. Hope to meet you.

- Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow?
Message:
sure!
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 12:28:32 (EDT)
Poster: tom
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow?
Message:
scott, I cant be there at 1:00
and you are not there now at 12:30
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 18:07:49 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: tom
Subject: Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow?
Message:
Too bad, I was there at 1:00 but didn't read your note til just now. No prob, maybe some other time.

- Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 21, 1997 at 20:06:02 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: A Conference Room Pow-Wow?
Message:
Scott,

How does one get out of the conference room. I walked in by mistake and the door slammed shut behind me. I can't find anything to do there. There's some stale water in a pitcher on the table and a few corporate videos by the VCR in the console thing. Anyway, I've to go the bathroom and I've also got some other stuff I was planning to do this weekend. Our band's supposedly playing tonight and I've got to do some law shit. Besides, I've REALLY got to pee. Scott? Scott?
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 11:52:13 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Archive #12
Message:
Archive #12 is now uploaded and ready
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 11:47:15 (EDT)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The 'new look' and Archive #12
Message:
Dear Forum Participants,
- As a result of recent requests from Brian and Tom to somehow enable users to simultaneously monitor the status of the conference room on their screens at the same time as they are participating in the forum, I have added this feature to the forum site.
- For anyone who may not have a 'frames-enabled-browser' unfortunately this feature won't work. You can easily enable your browser for this by downloading and installing Netscape 3.0. Check it out by clicking on:

Netscape

- Any comments or questions about the new forum layout would be appreciated.
- Sincerely,
- Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 15:30:03 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: The 'new look' and Archive #12
Message:
Scott -
This is great! I can read forum messages and chat at the same time. There is a bit of jerkiness as I'm typing this, as the applet grabs processor time, but it's working great! Now if I could just catch that pesky Jim in here I'd straighten him out pronto. BTW, I am hereby warning anyone I catch in chat that I refuse to do the 'Composing/Done' thing. Tried it. Hated it. Love this setup though. Great job! (Tom, we shoulda suggested Scott furnish us with a couple of mute women instead. Think it's too late?)
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