Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 3

From: May 7, 1997

To: May 14, 1997

Page: 3 Of: 5


Kurt Andersen -:- Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:47:46 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 17:23:08 (EDT)
___PSOK52 -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 17:42:46 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:15:10 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:36:36 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:41:17 (EDT)
___Bill Cooper -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:38:55 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 22:12:04 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 23:41:55 (EDT)
___z -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 11:39:24 (EDT)
___Premie -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 11:49:51 (EDT)
___Mili to z -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 12:54:10 (EDT)
___JW to z -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:46:51 (EDT)
___z -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:54:51 (EDT)
___JW to z -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 14:19:36 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 14:29:27 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 16:52:11 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 17:29:41 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 17:41:00 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 18:31:07 (EDT)
___Premie to OP! -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 19:05:16 (EDT)
___Anon -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:11:16 (EDT)
___irene morgan -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:19:01 (EDT)
___Anon to Kurt -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:40:28 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:54:20 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:54:41 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:59:11 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 23:20:12 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 02:15:06 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Sun, May 11, 1997 at 19:09:25 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Sun, May 11, 1997 at 19:22:11 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Sun, May 11, 1997 at 20:56:48 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Mon, May 12, 1997 at 15:35:15 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 11:43:43 (EDT)
___Anon -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 11:59:45 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 12:41:46 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 12:46:59 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 18:43:58 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 18:50:51 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 19:11:34 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Tues, May 13, 1997 at 21:26:00 (EDT)
___Dave P -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 04:48:21 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:19:37 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:39:28 (EDT)
___o p -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:54:07 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 16:53:43 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 17:47:01 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 17:50:54 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Giving $$ to the Guru -:- Wed, May 14, 1997 at 21:24:57 (EDT)

JW -:- Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:24:03 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:26:26 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:44:11 (EDT)
___Deena cont. -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:00:50 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:24:25 (EDT)
___Mili to JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:34:46 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:47:38 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:59:36 (EDT)
___Mili to JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:50:49 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:12:17 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:52:24 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:55:01 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 20:43:38 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Suicide -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:01:38 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Suicide -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 12:50:44 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Suicide -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:13:52 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:47:46 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
As I said here last month, I am writing a piece about Maharaji and his followers, present and past, for the New Yorker. I've had phone and email discussions with some of you; thanks for your cooperation. Now I'd appreciate all of your help in trying to nail down one factual issue. Some people who received knowledge in the 70s were apparently asked to fill out a form listing their financial assets, and some weren't. Who here was and wasn't solicited thusly? And apart from ashram premies, was tithing 10% of one's income the only financial support encouraged/expected of good premies? Thaks for your help.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 17:23:08 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Hi Kurt, Off the subject I want to ask if you received my e-mail? Deena
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 17:42:46 (EDT)
Poster: PSOK52
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Lived in ashram for 3 years(in 3 cities) was not aware of anyone solicited in this way. Saw you at David and Susan's wedding a few years back. P.S. I was the one who married David the first time (in Omaha)
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:15:10 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Kurt, I think those forms were definitely in the 70s. I filled one out and I think most of the ashram residents were asked to do so, but I don't know how extensive it was. When I was working at national headquarters I saw the files of completed forms. I recall the form asked not only about your assets, but whether you expected an inheritence and some stuff about your parents' assets. I recall filling out the form and describing my father's net worth.
I don't think those questionnaires were given to just anyone who received knowledge...I think they were only given to the ashram residents, and I don't know how many of them actually got them. I filled out mine when I was in Miami, and that was 1979-1980 or so. By that time, I am not aware that anything was actually done with them. At that time, the focus was on immediate cash, mostly for plane project, rather than money coming in from inheritence down the road.
Earlier than that, around Millenium time, ashram premies also were asked to fill out forms identifying relatives and others who might be sources of funds. Believe it or not, premies actually visited some of these people on occasion and asked for money, cold. I think in a few instances they even got some donations. Ashrams premies were also asked to contact relatives and friends for money prior to the Millenium festival (cringe)!
I also know that Joan Apter, and probably others, went around the country prior to Millenium asking that premies donate money including taking out personal loans to make donations, I think specifically for Millenium. [That was really before credit cards were so widespread.] I saw memoranda in the files at national headquarters she wrote describing how much money was raised, particularly in New York and Philadelphia. Who knows how many people actually did it. Also, during the fundraising for the plane, premies were asked to borrow money, take out loans on credit cards, etc. during the emergency fundraising that was all done in cash. I personally made such phone and in-person pleas in the satsang hall in Miami.
Later, both ashram and non-ashram premies were requested to fill out skills questionnaires. They were mostly used to locate people to work on the Boeing 707 plane project, also in Miami, also in 1979-1981 or so. I don't think those questionnaires asked about finances.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:36:36 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
In my community, Zagreb, Croatia, then former Yugoslavia, there were no formal demands for regular financial contributions. However, when a mahatma was coming in, or the country amd community coordinators were supposed to travel to a distant festival we made a collection. The collection for the mahatma and leasing of halls never bothered me, but I got irked by the 'top brass' and ashram premies expecting to be financed by the community. There definitely was a 'pecking order', but I think that irked Maharaji as much as it did us simple folks. Remember how he never forgot to rub in the noses of national and community coordinators at the festivals? I think he was/is always aware of the social status trips going on in the premie community and never condoned any 'special' status. In the darshan, especially, I felt that he was genuinely trying to use that opportunity of establishing a personal contact with each and every individual.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:41:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Oh, and also, the 10% tithing, also known as AMP or the Active Membership Program was supposed to support the ongoing activities of Divine Light Mission, as opposed to GMJ himself; supposed to should definitely be in quotes. Part of the money, 40 or 50%, stayed in the local community and the rest went to the national headquarters in Denver and later Miami. I can recall negotiating with national headquarters over the split whan I was a community coordinator, trying to get more money for the local community.
In the early years, DLM got tax exempt status as a religion such that people who donated could deduct it from their taxes. [In fact, in relation to some of the jobs I had while living in the ashram, I recall we were instructed to fill out our withholding (W-4) forms to have NOTHING withheld for federal income taxes, because we were considered monastics with no income. When I moved out of the ashram briefly in 1976, I had to actually had to pay taxes for a period of time while I was in the ashram and after the tax exempt status was lost.] Around 1976 or 77, the IRS eliminated the tax exempt status of DLM. Of course, donations to GMJ directly were never tax deductible.
Premies were also encouraged to send money directly to Guru Maharaj Ji. There was a p.o. box in Malibu to send the money to. Since there was no longer any tax advantage to contribute to DLM and since a lot of the premies sort of disliked DLM anyway, and were being told to devote entirely to GMJ, I suspect more and more money went directly to GMJ. I know that was the case with me. When I was ashram housefather and handled the finances, we made the 10% donations to DLM, but we sent more money directly to the GMJ post office box. The rest of the money went to basic food/living and going to festivals, which was a MAJOR expense and often put us heavily in debt. The heavy debt of the ashrams was sort of an ongoing joke in DLM. DLM was also usually short of funds.
Premies also donated indirectly by going to festivals, where there were entrance fees, which I recall being as high as $70, and using the premie travel agency (AIITA and later Travel Lite) for festivals. I think after Millenium, which lost a bundle of money, the festivals were often a big source of income.
I also know that money contributed by people during the darshan (kissing feet) lines was substantial, but I have no information as to how much it was.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:38:55 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
As I said here last month, I am writing a piece about Maharaji and his followers, present and past, for the New Yorker. I've had phone and email discussions with some of you; thanks for your cooperation. Now I'd appreciate all of your help in trying to nail down one factual issue. Some people who received knowledge in the 70s were apparently asked to fill out a form listing their financial assets, and some weren't. Who here was and wasn't solicited thusly? And apart from ashram premies, was tithing 10% of one's income the only financial support encouraged/expected of good premies? Thaks for your help. Yeh we were expected to give 10% but tjhen every couple of months we'd have a big premie meeting orchestrated by ashram premies with some big wig in DLM would come and talk none stop sometimes into the morning. The message was usually how much Maharaji loves us and how we treat him like shit letting him slum it in his own creation. It would be a very big guilt trip and the bottom line was always more cash, and this was from a community that lived by and large in the poorest accomodation and looked on the breadline.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 22:12:04 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Kurt
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I don't know if it's even worth it to try to clarify points on this page. But here goes: - in the 70s most of the people who joined DLM were reeling from the free-love commune style of existence, where everything was shared, there was often no personal property as such. A lot of people carried this over to the ashram existence, and it felt perfectly natural that we would live a socialistic existence that excluded individual wealth. Once the ashrams were established as a 'monastic order' the precedents were set. I don't think DLM was any different from other 'religious' organizations in the monetary demands it made on that order. That's not to say this is an ideal existence (see JW's post about religious confusion under Heavengate). But renunciates are expected to renounce. During the early times, there was a general lack of attention to the rules and regulations that apply to finances. Money was collected and distributed almost at random. A lot of money was spent on some of the prima donna ashram residents as well as on baubles for M and his family, all the instructors, etc. On the other hand, the money also went to support all the ashram residents, including medical bills, travel, etc. People were not turned away because of lack of finances (my college loan was partially paid off while I was traveling as a representative of DLM - Jim and JW may resent that as having come out of THEIR hard-earned funds; I never thought of such things at the time). Once the realization that tax exempt did not mean reality exempt hit, a lot of things were cleaned up. There has been a very direct effort to keep the finances of Elan Vital separated from Maharaji's personal finances. Back to the earlier days: That sense of money as a toy of the universe was widespread. I remember standing up and asking people to empty their pockets, and further. It seemed perfectly natural at the time. We were one big family, we did everything for each other and for Maharaji, and what came from one person would eventually come around and get back to him. About the airplanes, I distinctly remember that in the community where I lived, the fundraising became very cautious. Loans were asked for, yes, but with the intention that Elan Vital would repay them. Since I had virtually no credit and no recourses to any, I did not take out a loan, so I don't have personal experience of how well they were repaid. The process seemed at the time to be very well organized and there was a lot of care taken not to destroy anyone's finances with a bad loan. I was part of the AMP - it was a very systematized way of gathering money, but if someone didn't send in their donation they were never followed up. There was always a lot of talk about collecting money, but if someone didn't have it, they weren't held responsible even for a promisory note. As for the charge for events: Maharaji was never in favor of that (yes, Jim, I know that for a fact). The money was charged because DLM was always in the red. If someone showed up without money, however, they were always allowed to attend anyway. (There was a short period where they would be hassled quite a bit - asked if there was someone they could borrow the money from, asked if they had a credit card, post dated check, etc. - but in the end no one was supposed to be turned away for lack of money.) Maharaji was very unhappy with this way of running things, and eventually events returned to no charge. The usual cost for an event at that time was $20 to $25. $70 would have been for a three-day event. For the 1990 Rome event, three days at the Palazio de Sport, a $100 fee was requested. I know this has been said on the page before, but I'll reiterate in case it was missed: Currently, there is a seating fee of $15-$25 charged for the events. If one doesn't reserve a seat, there is no charge, although there will be a request for a voluntary when the person goes to seating. If one doesn't have the money, a seat is given anyway. There is an ATTEMPT at fairness in the distribution of seats - most are chosen by computer. A few people somehow always manage to get to the front, but there seem to be fewer and fewer of these repeated faces. At introductory events, seating is open and there is no fee charged. Now I have to get off line so I won't have time to proofread. Please forgive any spelling errors, etc. (there I go, apologizing again - oh Polish blood!)
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 23:41:55 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op and Kurt
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
There are just a number of things that need correction.
At least after 1976, if you had a debt you were NOT allowed to move into the ashram -- Just ask David Smith if you don't believe me. You HAD to be at least at break-even.
It's true that there was an attempt to keep DLM and Maharaj Ji finances separate, but it's not true that that happened. For example, in fundraising for the plane, millions of dollars of it went through DLM, illegally and we are talking 1980 and not 1971. The main reason DLM was abolished was because the IRS was hot on GMJ's tail.
I don't think OP knowa what she is talking about in regard to cautious fundraising for the Boeing 707. I, as a community coordinator was specifically instructed to suggest to people that they max out their credit cards and get cash in ASAP. Premies were dispatched by plane from Miami to the communties on more than one occasion to pick up the cash. They brought it back to the Alton Road offices and I helped count it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, all in cash. Checks couldn't be accepted because then there would be a record of the illegal fundraising. And that happened at least twice that I recall. It was deposited in amounts less that $10,000 at a time to avoid being reported under the U.S. Treasury rules. The idea that it was ever even suggested that any of these donations, whether they came from funds the premies borrowed or not, was ever going to be paid back is total fantasy and just plain untrue. Moreover, during the first couple of years of the plane fundraising, the premies were lied to and told the money was going to a world tour when it was actually going toward a Boeing 707 for Guru Maharaj Ji, which he was trying to keep secret.
As for the festival charges, the festivals were definitely used as fundraisers. The Miami Beach convention center, which we used more than any other location, was absolutely free to use on many occasions. The premies dropped hundreds of thousands of dollars into the Miami Beach economy at each festival and the city was happy to let us use the convention center for free. There were costs associated with the festivals (like we had to pay for the air conditioning), but they also made money, especially during the plane fundraising period. $70 times 15,000 people? You figure it out -- over a million dollars. And that was in the 70s.The $50-70 cost figure was really quite common, and it's true the festivals usually lasted at least a weekend. I also remember one time Maharaj Ji was so into the plane being finished that he offered the substantial funds from the darshan line for the plane. I don't know if he really gave it or not. I also was told by people around GMJ that he saw the festivals, at least during this period, as a source of money.
I don't know about the cost of festivals after 1983 and I agree that introductory programs were usually free for non-premies. I went to a program Maharaj Ji spoke at in 1990 that was also an introductory program in San Francisco. I hadn't seen him in 7 years. I was not charged to enter the program, but the person giving out tickets asked if I had received knowledge and when I said yes, he asked for a $25 donation. I declined and was given a seat in the fourth row, much closer than I had ever been at a program where GMJ was. So, no, the charge was not mandatory.
Sorry to be a stickler about this, but I think the record is important. Others will have to tell you about post-1983 activities. I have no experience with that.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 11:39:24 (EDT)
Poster: z
Email:
To: all
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Where I live it was suggested to us that we might like to set up direct regular bank drafts to DLM. I once raised the point at a fundraising event that having to tell one's bank manager that one wanted to give money regularly to a Divine Light Organisation may be a bit embarassing for some professional people and could they possibly change the name to something less religious sounding.. I was publically reprimanded for this suggestion by the premie in charge of getting the money out of us . He said I should not feel embarassed about telling my bank manager that I was associated with Maharaji's mission . This condescending tone was common. I increasingly gagged at the preciousness of the premies behaviour. They seemed to treat Maharaji with sickening obsequiousness.
Nowadays there are specific and regular fundraising local events worldwide targetting premies wallets. They are unashamedly trying to raise money for Maharaji's latest pet projects such as his forthcoming gig in Australia. They 'desperately' need a lot of money to furnish the place with the amenities required to accomodate the crowds that Maharaji plans to pull. The requests for money to finance Maharaji's 'work' as distinct from swelling his already bursting personal coffers, are obviously endless. It is a part of a premies lot, if he is to attend videos regularly, to eventually end up at these meetings where money is asked for, (usually with a lengthy pre-amble by someone who is skillful in publically soliciting funds).Of course you don't 'have to' give a dime. Maharaji himself receives money from rich private donors, businesses run by premies and by virtue of his enormous assets around the world. He is truly fabulously wealthy as befits the Perfect Master of course.
His accountant must have interesting stories to tell. I heard directly from one of his accountants secretaries (who left her job in disgust)that a premie, very close indeed to Maharaji, an instructor in fact, tried to pull off an arms deal of sorts through him in about 1983 (whether this had anything to do with MJ personally I do not know, these were her words). I do know however that the premie accountant wisely, refused to get involved.
If Mili thinks these are more lies I could privately furnish him with the names of these people and he could ask them himself. Also I could pass on to him the 'names' and all the details, of people covering for Maharaji's less than perfect behaviour. But then he wouldn't bother to check them would he? He is preoccupied with drawing the 'pretty'conclusions that he seeks.The truth in this case is not a vital issue worthy of any real investigation.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 11:49:51 (EDT)
Poster: Premie
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Talking of faces in the front rows at events.. who is that blonde with a powerbook computer on her lap who sits at the front and is always around Maharaji? What is she doing and what is her special service?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 12:54:10 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to z
Email:
To: z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Do you come from the planet Zog, by any chance?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:46:51 (EDT)
Poster: JW to z
Email:
To: z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
z, nice to hear from you.
Can you let us know anything more about this Australia project? Is he buying land? Is it a festival site? Will there be a residence there? Is fundraising going on specifically for that project?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:54:51 (EDT)
Poster: z
Email:
To: JW to z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message: z, nice to hear from you.
Can you let us know anything more about this Australia project? Is he buying land? Is it a festival site? Will there be a residence there? Is fundraising going on specifically for that project?
Yup, he's bought it already I think. It is a festival site and there is fundraising going on in a big way to develop the site. I believe that there is or will be a residence there, but the place is pretty wild (in the sticks) so it may not be that permanent. It's actually very beautiful there.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 14:19:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW to z
Email:
To: z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Thanks for the information, I guess I've been out of touch for a long time. If you don't mind, since you are pretty knowledgeable about this stuff, do you know anything about the following?
When the fundraising is going on, why is it said this site is needed? What's wrong with having programs in regular convention centers, etc, or on rented land in Florida or elsewhere where we used to have big festivals? Do you think Maharaj Ji wants to eventually use it as a place to live so he can have more privacy from the rest of the world?
Are there videos or pictures shown of the land as part of the fundraising?
Who does the actual fundraising? I don't know if you are in the US, but do certain individuals, like David Smith, make the pitch for the funds?
If someone makes a donation, can you make it by check, and if you do, who or what is the check made payable to?
Does the fundraising seem to be successful? Are there ever any emergency sorts of pleas for money?
Is there ever any suggestion that GMJ might invest some of his own vast wealth into the land/residence project?
Do you know if there are any ongoing businesses that are used to support GMJ and/or Elan Vital? And how much do videos cost?
Sorry for all the questions -- I guess i just find it all sort of interesting.
Thanks again.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 14:29:27 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
1) I suggest that the problem you had about DLO is rather in the past and no longer relevant, since DLM has not existed for years. Unless you suffered great unresolved trauma from the incident. 2) They are unashamedly trying to raise money for Maharaji's latest pet projects such as his forthcoming gig in Australia. They 'desperately' need a lot of money to furnish the place with the amenities required to accomodate the crowds that Maharaji plans to pull I think the amenities are relatively important: toilets, dining rooms, kitchens, showers, cabin/tents as living areas. They're also putting in electricity, running water. I gather you think people should rough it - sleeping bags on the ground, trenches for toilets, bathe in a stream? A lot of people would like to see the 'forthcoming gig' happen sooner rather than later. Maybe about 10,000 people. This requires money, unashamedly. Where did your quotation 'desperately' come from? I haven't heard it used recently. 3) The requests for money to finance Maharaji's 'work' as distinct from swelling his already bursting personal coffers, are obviously endless Care to comment on how often there are fundraising events? To my knowledge, they happen once, perhaps twice in a year within a community. There were a few years with none. There is no hidden agenda - people know ahead of time what the event will be about. As to his swelling coffers - see below. 4) It is a part of a premies lot, if he is to attend videos regularly, to eventually end up at these meetings where money is asked for, (usually with a lengthy pre-amble by someone who is skillful in publically soliciting funds).Of course you don't 'have to' give a dime. No, you don't. Not only do you not have to give a dime, you also don't have to go if you don't want to, since you knew ahead of time what the meeting would be about. It is part of the premie's lot to commit to practicing Knowledge and to stay in touch by watching videos. Period. Perhaps you could go to one of the fundraisers so that you can see how tactfully it's done. There is NO pressure - and those who can afford $10 a year are given the same respect as those who send thousands. 5)Maharaji himself receives money from rich private donors, businesses run by premies and by virtue of his enormous assets around the world. He is truly fabulously wealthy as befits the Perfect Master of course. How M manages his personal money should have no bearing on Elan Vital's message. He does have a personal life. And if he were tremendously wealthy, it would still have nothing to do with 'Perfect Master'. But, how do you know about 'rich private donors' and his 'enormous assets around the world'? Isn't this all speculation? Yes, there are people who make contributions to him, but 'truly fabulously wealthy'??? And, as has been stated before on this forum, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time basking in his supposed riches. He spends virtually all of his time flying from place to place, meeting with those interested in receiving Knowledge, practicing Knowledge, or helping him spread his message. I'm not a salesperson. I've always balked at selling ANYTHING. But to me, Maharaji's message is true, and although I don't always agree with the packaging, I am always willing to help in whatever capacity I can. 6) I also know of some offers for methods of receiving money that M personally refused. I don't doubt your story about a possible arms deal, and I'm sure it would have been nixed no matter what. 7) I won't comment about names - if you have sources, I'm sure they have stories to tell, some of which might be true, some not. Now that you've posted this, I'm sure you'll get a lot of takers.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 16:52:11 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I know, I know. You asked z and here I am sticking my foot in again. But you asked factual questions and I might have some factual answers. The land in Australia was purchased several years ago. There has been an ongoing project to get it together to use as a site for international events. Why not have regular convention centers, etc.? In some countries, they're not big enough. Why not Florida? Because not all premies live in the USA or northern South America. For some people, believe it or not, Australia is a more convenient trip. The land in Australia was a bargain (yes, M DOES consider the price). The premies don't feel like it's M's retreat - they consider it a place where we can FINALLY have our own space. Several people live on the site year-round and are working to develop the land to accommodate whatever events are held there. Last year a building was constructed there specifically as a Knowledge center and Maharaji had a Knowledge session there. There have been international events on the land for which premies stayed at hotels off site. It's hoped that the land will be ready to accommodate all ON SITE by the next event. If M were to use it as a retreat place, it would hardly hide him from the rest of the world, as it is not 'in the boonies'. Australia is a developed nation. Yes, videos AND pictures of the land are shown at the fundraising events. And of some of the current inhabitants: e.g. wallabys. David Smith does not do the fundraising. There are several specific individuals who do. Fun to listen to, of course, and well informed on all the aspects of EV's finances. See my post above - there is never a demand for money, it's definitely if you can and want to. Donations can be made by check. There is a specific fund for the Australia project, and donations made for that fund cannot be used for anything else. At every meeting, there has been a presentation of the current state of EV's finances. It has been mostly in the black, although immediately after some events it can end up owing a bit. There have not been any 'emergency' pleas for money in the past few years. Nor requests for special funds other than the Australia one. Most premies that I know are quite excited about Australia. As I mentioned above, they see it as their own. The last two questions I know less about. There is a temporary residence on the land, but M usually camps out when he is there. As for whether he himself has contributed financially to the project, I don't know. I think I've already said what I know about M's personal finances. Elan Vital is supported entirely by contributions. Visions is the production group that makes videos and tapes. They are a separate company. Proceeds from the videos are used to support EV, but I don't know percentages. Videos cost between $15 and $30 and range in time from about 6 min to 90 min, with most about 50-60 min.. There is currently a sale on the old stock of videos for $8 each. Audio cassettes cost $10 each. One can get a subscription and receive all videos distributed for $400/month. There is a guaranteed number of videos per month (I think it's 25), and any non-functioning videos are replaced. Most communities that have regular events are subscribers, and thus have new videos to show every couple of weeks. Communities that cannot afford the full subscription price receive videos at half price, and many of the third-world or poorer communities pay nothing. Videos are translated into approximately 80 languages. They are dubbed in stereo, so that the M's voice remains on one track, the translator's on the other. They cost the same as the one-language videos. Clear 'nuff?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 17:29:41 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
You know OP you should get a job in public relations, or, better yet, as a spin doctor for the Clinton administration. Nevertheless, I appreciate your answers to my questions --you certainly keep up on these things. You must be an extremely active premie.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 17:41:00 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Thanks, but I'll pass on Clinton. Lesser of two weevils is about all.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 18:31:07 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Thanks, but I'll pass on Clinton. Lesser of two weevils is about all. Finally!!! A freudian slip!
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 19:05:16 (EDT)
Poster: Premie to OP!
Email:
To: OP
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Talking of faces in the front rows at events.. who is that blonde with a powerbook computer on her lap who sits at the front and is always around Maharaji? What is she doing and what is her special service?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:11:16 (EDT)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: z
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Your talk about 'unashamed' things brings to mind another example. This website! which is of course an unashamed and revolting pit of satire and caricature. All at the expense of our beloved Master. It is a dreadful SIN to ridicule the Master.. and in the PUBLIC DOMAIN too! It is most against His wishes you know. Repent ye! Servants of Beelzebub!
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:19:01 (EDT)
Poster: irene morgan
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
As I said here last month, I am writing a piece about Maharaji and his followers, present and past, for the New Yorker. I've had phone and email discussions with some of you; thanks for your cooperation. Now I'd appreciate all of your help in trying to nail down one factual issue. Some people who received knowledge in the 70s were apparently asked to fill out a form listing their financial assets, and some weren't. Who here was and wasn't solicited thusly? And apart from ashram premies, was tithing 10% of one's income the only financial support encouraged/expected of good premies? Thaks for your help. Kurt, I've been going to Satsang and to see Maharaji in Australia for over seven years and not once have I ever been asked to give any money. Yes, there are donation boxes at the door but there are in my local museum and churches too. Mayby this happened years ago.. but I can not now and never to me here in Sydney
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 21:40:28 (EDT)
Poster: Anon to Kurt
Email:
To: Kurt
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Let's get this straight. As a sincere, known , trusted and 'working' premie of some long standing, I was invited many times (by phone) to attend specific fundraising meetings.OK. This subject is obviously very touchy. It's quite simple, money has been solicited over the years in many many ways , usually with due care not to attract adverse attention or to cause offence. In this latter respect it has predictably not always been a successful venture.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:54:20 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
There is a very nice video on the land in Australia in the $8 category that OP mentioned. It is titled 'Amaroo'.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:54:41 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Thanks, but I'll pass on Clinton. Lesser of two weevils is about all.Finally!!! A freudian slip! Where's the slip? A weevil eats away at its host plant. I've never yet seen a politician that didn't.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 22:59:11 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
All premies know about the Australian land - Amaroo. I know quite a few people who have been there already for events. I am going when the next big event happens. I have heard a rumour for September this year but it may be next year. The land is next to Ipswitch which is near Brisbane. CD
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 23:20:12 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Anon to Kurt
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Let's get this straight - g. I have also been to quite a few fundraising meetings. Big deal. They were always only for people who were interested in participating. There was never any attempt to herd the general premie to these affairs. I went to the meetings because I was interested in participating. Money has always been a touchy subject. The yearly Elan Vital budget is that of a very very small company. I personally feel that Elan Vital could use a lot more. A single high bond trader bonus beats all of Elan Vitals funds. I donate a very modest amount monthly to Elan Vital and also to our local group. I sometimes cringe when I go to a local participation event to hear about our finances. The amount of money discussed is so trivial that it is almost embarrassing. CD
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 02:15:06 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Let's get this straight - g Chris: misplaced '-g'? -- JW is the gay one. JW: no disrespect intended. Some of my best friends... (in fact, some of my best friends, premies AND non premies... and I know for a fact that M is not homophobic - can you grant him that much?)
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Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 19:09:25 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Let's get this straight - g Chris: misplaced '-g'? -- JW is the gay one. JW: no disrespect intended. Some of my best friends... (in fact, some of my best friends, premies AND non premies... and I know for a fact that M is not homophobic - can you grant him that much?) I have no way of knowing one way or the other and I doubt you do either.
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Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 19:22:11 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I know of at least one person who M helped take out of the closet - made him face his sexuality square in the face and, according to that person, freed him from fear and guilt.
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Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 20:56:48 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I know of at least one person who M helped take out of the closet - made him face his sexuality square in the face and, according to that person, freed him from fear and guilt. Names, please!!!
The guy who was GMJ's cook and he became an initiator. [This is frustrating; I knew him pretty well, his parents were also premies and I spent a lot of time with them in DC, too -- was his name Brown?]. Anyway, he told me (and this was before I was out, even to myself), that GMJ made fun of gay people and even told homophobic jokes, and preferred the term poofta to gay. It was his impression that GMJ just didn't understand how someone could possibly be gay and the whole idea was strange and repulsive to him. Of course, I never heard these things directly myself.
But GMJ might be like a lot of homophobic people I have encountered who make exceptions for people they know personally, and yet remain homophobic on a more general level. By the way, this discussion with his former cook came up in the context of whether we should target propogation in the very large gay community in San Francisco.
Just like a lot of seminaries, the brothers ashrams were full of repressed gay men. I won't go into the details, but it is sad that a number of them, when the ashrams closed, were really unprepared to deal with negotiating gay safe-sex life in the era of AIDs and a couple of them I had lived with died from AIDS within a couple of years after the ashrams were closed.
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Date: Mon, May 12, 1997 at 15:35:15 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Yes, it is incredibly sad. A few very good friends of mine suffered the same fate. If you have a private e-mail address, I can send you a few more details about some of the gay men (I don't know about women) I'm referring to. I don't want to post names for privacy and families' sakes.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 11:43:43 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Yes, it is incredibly sad. A few very good friends of mine suffered the same fate. If you have a private e-mail address, I can send you a few more details about some of the gay men (I don't know about women) I'm referring to. I don't want to post names for privacy and families' sakes. Yes, go ahead and send it to: Bluebirdd@aol.com Thanks.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 11:59:45 (EDT)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: ALL
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Everyone on this board please do not forget that the internet is a haven for people who enjoy misrepresenting themselves.OP I would find a way to check that this is really JW's net address, maybe he has two but it isn't the one I have for him. And it isn't in the city that JW says he is from. So I would ask you to make sure this is really JW before you send something confidential. JW I belive is a really nice man. I don't think that this post neccessarily came from him though.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 12:41:46 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
It's me. I'm using another e-mail address in Seattle because the one I have has my last name in it, and I want to retain at least some measure of anonymity. In any event, it is not big deal so if you have any doubt whatsoever, do NOT send any information to me. Come to think of it, I really would rather not know. Don't send it. Thanks, anon, I guess I wasn't thinking. [Remember in GMJ's world that used to be a good thing?]
ALso, OP, I remember the initator/cook. It was Dennis Murphy, with the shock of white hair.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 12:46:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Everyone on this board please do not forget that the internet is a haven for people who enjoy misrepresenting themselves.OP I would find a way to check that this is really JW's net address, maybe he has two but it isn't the one I have for him. And it isn't in the city that JW says he is from. So I would ask you to make sure this is really JW before you send something confidential. JW I belive is a really nice man. I don't think that this post neccessarily came from him though. Thanks, Anon, you're probably right. I've asked OP not to send the information because I don't want to use my own e-mail address at this point.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 18:43:58 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
thank you.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 18:50:51 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
no problem. One note though. It comes in very handy to have an anonymous 'handle' on the internet. You can probably create an alias for yourself with your server. And, depending on the server, no one need know where you're from, either. That way you can go hang out on the newslink and argue with a few MORE fanatics on either side.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 19:11:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Thanks, OP. Unfortunately, I don't have time for that these days. Working is such a nuisance.
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Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 21:26:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Yes, it is incredibly sad. A few very good friends of mine suffered the same fate. If you have a private e-mail address, I can send you a few more details about some of the gay men (I don't know about women) I'm referring to. I don't want to post names for privacy and families' sakes. Do you think maybe, just maybe, these guys who came out from total dedication to GMJ might have had a somewhat better chance if they had had a little more life experience, besides being celibate in the ashrams repressing their sexuality for years? Do you think GMJ might had SOME responsiblity for that, or do you think that that ashram experience, and the fact that it was abruptly ended, was no factor at all?
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 04:48:21 (EDT)
Poster: Dave P
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I was always led to believe that money collected for GMJ was to help him propogate his message. More fool I for helping (a lot) him collect fancy cars and a luxurious lifestyle (whilst most of us serfs lived in jumble sale clothing). The charity laws should really be changed to stop charlatans from ripping off trusting people in the name of GOD. I do take full responsibility however for alowing the myself to be con'd (lesson learned!)
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:19:37 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Dave P
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I was always led to believe that money collected for GMJ was to help him propogate his message. More fool I for helping (a lot) him collect fancy cars and a luxurious lifestyle (whilst most of us serfs lived in jumble sale clothing). The charity laws should really be changed to stop charlatans from ripping off trusting people in the name of GOD. I do take full responsibility however for alowing the myself to be con'd (lesson learned!) If you check it out you will find that Ms personal stuff is from personal gifts, not the general fund raising. There are several people into M who have a large personal wealth. Your post is looking a bit foolish. I contribute $ on a monthly basis to Elan Vital and a local event fund. I have heard the same $ gripes since 1972 when I first ran into M. No new news. CD
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:39:28 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Yes, it is incredibly sad. A few very good friends of mine suffered the same fate.If you have a private e-mail address, I can send you a few more details about some of the gay men (I don't know about women) I'm referring to. I don't want to post names for privacy and families' sakes.Do you think maybe, just maybe, these guys who came out from total dedication to GMJ might have had a somewhat better chance if they had had a little more life experience, besides being celibate in the ashrams repressing their sexuality for years? Do you think GMJ might had SOME responsiblity for that, or do you think that that ashram experience, and the fact that it was abruptly ended, was no factor at all? Last night, as virtually my last act before losing consciousness, I was writing you a wonderful reply to this - and then my son unplugged the modem line so he could use the phone (from another room - didn't realize I was on). No, I don't consider that cosmic - I was very happy with what I was writing and too tired to do it over and now I'm surrounded by work deadlines and don't have time. Maybe tonight...
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:54:07 (EDT)
Poster: o p
Email:
To: dave p
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
This thing about M's massive wealth is getting out of hand. There is ONE house owned in Malibu. There is one house in England. The residence in India is on ashram property, where a whole community lives. The residence in Australia is more like a cottage, and is also on communal land. The money donated to Elan Vital is used for events and to cover the costs of running an international organization. The money donated in the United States and Europe funds events in Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and the Far East. Individual donations to Maharaji have not been made by public solicitation since the early 70s. In other words, no one should ever ask you to donate money for 'residence support'. Maharaji doesn't share his private monetary concerns with the rest of the planet, but I do know of several times when there wasn't enough money to cover some very basic needs. And, I'll repeat this yet again - Maharaji scarcely has time to spend his life luxuriating in all the wealth he has presumably accumulated. He spends more than 80% of his time traveling and taking his message to those who would like to hear it. I think he was home all of three weeks last year.
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 16:53:43 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
I was always led to believe that money collected for GMJ was to help him propogate his message. More fool I for helping (a lot) him collect fancy cars and a luxurious lifestyle (whilst most of us serfs lived in jumble sale clothing). The charity laws should really be changed to stop charlatans from ripping off trusting people in the name of GOD. I do take full responsibility however for alowing the myself to be con'd (lesson learned!) If you check it out you will find that Ms personal stuff is from personal gifts, not the general fund raising. There are several people into M who have a large personal wealth. Your post is looking a bit foolish. I contribute $ on a monthly basis to Elan Vital and a local event fund. I have heard the same $ gripes since 1972 when I first ran into M. No new news. CD Chris, how does one check out that Guru Maharaj Ji's personal stuff is all from gifts. If you consider financial contributions gifts what is the distinction? ALso, was the Boeing 707 that involved years of general fundraising a gift? Does he publish is financial statements or tax returns? Are all his residences gifts? I personally know for a fact that his many residences, at least one helicopter, the Boeing 707 and other planes, the residence in Malibu, as well as the land around the residence in Malibu as well as host of other personal stuff came from general fundraising. To characterize it as anything else is a lie, or at least very misleading.
For that matter, does Elan Vital publish financial statments so people who contribute can see excactly where their money is going like virtually every other charitable institution does? If they do, please let me know how I can get that information.
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 17:47:01 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: o p
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
This thing about M's massive wealth is getting out of hand. There is ONE house owned in Malibu. There is one house in England. The residence in India is on ashram property, where a whole community lives. The residence in Australia is more like a cottage, and is also on communal land. The money donated to Elan Vital is used for events and to cover the costs of running an international organization. The money donated in the United States and Europe funds events in Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and the Far East. Individual donations to Maharaji have not been made by public solicitation since the early 70s. In other words, no one should ever ask you to donate money for 'residence support'. Maharaji doesn't share his private monetary concerns with the rest of the planet, but I do know of several times when there wasn't enough money to cover some very basic needs. And, I'll repeat this yet again - Maharaji scarcely has time to spend his life luxuriating in all the wealth he has presumably accumulated. He spends more than 80% of his time traveling and taking his message to those who would like to hear it. I think he was home all of three weeks last year. Has it ever occurred to you that Guru Maharaj Ji really LIKES traveling around the world? Especially since he is able to do it in private aircraft with his every need taken care of by subservient devotees? You make it sound like it's some arduous task or something. Please. I, personally love to travel, and would especially love it if I didn't have to put up with lines and airports and annoying passengers on commercial aircraft, and airline food, all of which GMJ does NOT have to deal with, and especially if where I end up going I stay in my own residence, or another lavish home, or at least in the most luxurious hotel,and if there are hundreds if not thousands of people who will sit and listen in wraped attention to my every word, whether what I say makes any sense or not. (And who will buy my videos.) I think I could get really used to that. I also recall that there have been long periods when GMJ didn't travel at all and I doubt the 80% figure happens every year. Many people consider traveling to be a part of luxuriating in wealth. The vast majority of the people on this planet will not visit one tenth of the places GMJ has been.
However, I imagine the less he travels the fewer videos he sells, and I assume that it is major source of income these days,- that, and interest on the millions he potentially put away while we were all writing out checks to Guru Maharaj Ji and mailing them directly to him in Malibu, but I guess that was before he was in the video business. And I guess we never really know for sure, because none of that is disclosed. Even in the mid-70s, when he was very young and didn't have kids (maybe one) Mishler said it was just amazing how much money Maharaj Ji could spend. Do you think that changed?
Yes I am very sure that the fundrasing stuff surrounding MJ is much more legit now than it used to be. As I explained to Kurt, we used to simply write out checks to Guru Maharaj Ji and send them to a P.O. Box in Malibu every month. As I said, when I was ashram housefather, we sent more money to GMJ directly every month than we ever sent to DLM. And that went into the early 80s NOT only in the early 70s, OP, you are just plain wrong there. He also raised a bundle every time he did a darshan line. I assume at some point it was appropriately invested in diversified holdings of stocks, bonds, money market accounts and real estate. At a certain point, you don't have to risk the threat of the IRS anymore by doing direct fundraising. I also assume he is paid a salary by Elan Vital, or maybe paid in the form of royalties off the videos sold. Do you ever see financial statements for that organization, like most other religions and charities produce for people who are considering a donation?
So, I guess he sold the residence in Miami Beach and the residence in Australia? There used to be a luxury residence in Austrailia as was the one in Miami Beach that had its own docks on Biscayne Bay. Does he still have the fleet of luxury cars and the helicopter, or did he sell those too? And how about the Wadi Sue, that luxury boat, and the motorhome with the gold bathroom fixtures, and that red Ferrari, and the Austin Martin we bought for him for his birthday, or that Citroen we bought for him for another birthday, or the helicopter for another birthday? You mention he was so poor he couldn't cover basic needs. What is that about? I think his definition and my definition of basic needs could be quite different, especially based on the fact that he gave a satsang complaining bitterly that in Brazil they made him ride in a FORD(!) instead of a true luxury car. I guess he would probably consider a luxury car a basic need. Frankly, I find it laughable that you would argue that he doesn't live a lavish lifestyle. Why don't you just come out with what you really believe: that he's the lord and he deserves the very best the world has to offer and who cares how he lives.
On the other hand, maybe GMJ has come into the 90s like a lot of the rest of use -- with reduced financial expectations. But I just cannot believe that he is not contiuning to live EXTREMELY well, better than 99.9% of the human beings on this planet. And since he never discloses his finances, how could you possibly know?
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 17:50:54 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
Yes, it is incredibly sad. A few very good friends of mine suffered the same fate.If you have a private e-mail address, I can send you a few more details about some of the gay men (I don't know about women) I'm referring to. I don't want to post names for privacy and families' sakes. Do you think maybe, just maybe, these guys who came out from total dedication to GMJ might have had a somewhat better chance if they had had a little more life experience, besides being celibate in the ashrams repressing their sexuality for years? Do you think GMJ might had SOME responsiblity for that, or do you think that that ashram experience, and the fact that it was abruptly ended, was no factor at all? Last night, as virtually my last act before losing consciousness, I was writing you a wonderful reply to this - and then my son unplugged the modem line so he could use the phone (from another room - didn't realize I was on). No, I don't consider that cosmic - I was very happy with what I was writing and too tired to do it over and now I'm surrounded by work deadlines and don't have time. Maybe tonight... It's okay OP. I wrote what I did for me, I admit it. And after I whipped it off, I relized is sort of chrystalized by I particpate on this webb page. I guess I feel renewed by it, and I feel more solid in myself.
You can react if you want to, but please don't consider it a deadline. I know you have some deadlines these days.
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Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 21:24:57 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Giving $$ to the Guru
Message:
JW, Thanks again for all your substantive input here. I know you criticised me once for not really describing my premie experiences in detail but I gotta tell you what I really think. My experiences were so regular. I was a regular ashram shmuck. (Movie title?). You and others like Anon do such a good job actually describing the realities of the situation I'm left enjoying poking fun at Maharaji and stadning righteous for good, solid rational thinking. Just thought I'd say that.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:24:03 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Suicide
Message:
This site is really causing some brain neurons to get re-connected. The memories are really coming back. This is one more thing I recall from my Miami days that the suicide discussion brought back. It was sad, but kind of ironically funny in retrospect.
At one point (I think it was 1980) DLM did a slick, colorful propogation brochure (8x10) that Maharaj Ji personally wanted and approved. It had glossy pictures of about 4 premies (all very together and good-looking) along with short bios and statments about how much knowledge and following Guru Maharaj Ji meant to them. The brochure also included Maharaj Ji's picture and a short satang by him.
The sad and ironic part was that between the time the premies were selected and the brochure came out, one of the 4 premies featured commited suicide. Not a good reflection on his experience in MJ's world would you say? The guy was from South America and I think we actually used the brochure for propogation for a while nevertheless. Ironic, no?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:26:26 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
Why should this be attributed to Maharaji? Some people are just suicide prone. It's in their psychological constitution. As a matter of fact, it has been proven that this character trait, along with a lot of others is inherited. For instance, there is an 80% probability that the offspring of mothers and fathers with criminal tendencies will have criminal tendencies themselves. Ref: anything by renowned psychologist Hans Eyseneck, Ph.D.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:44:11 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
If I'm right I remember that brochure too...the one I'm thinking of also had George Harrison's wife in it? Wonder what ever happened to her? It was a very slick presentation. JW, you have knowledge of so many of the things that if people who are checking out what Maharaji and the video event they've been invited to is all about then they certainly would have an eye opener. I mean, if I knew all this stuff (including the Mishler interview) I would have continued my spiritual quest and not stopped at what I EXPERIENCED as the perfect master. The Guru Papers are great. Here is a quote I'm very fond of: Surrender is one of the most poweful forces and emotional states that a human being can touch into. Passion literally means abandonment, letting go; thus surrender is a way to passion. It is one's art, a religion, a politiacal system, the revolution, and even the living moment. Surrender is so potent precisely because it shifts control to an arena that is free, or more free, from one's inner dramas and the conflicts involved in personal decisions central in my life. If I give may to music, spiritual realization, whatever, then that dictates my movement. It becomes the focus of my life, which eliminates many choices by making all else secondary. Surrender is a basic part of life, as is control. What is being examined and taken issue with is surrender as a part of authoritian control.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:00:50 (EDT)
Poster: Deena cont.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
Correction to the quote...If I give my life to music, not may to music as I so elequontely wrote. To continue with another quote ( I cut myself off the net ) Disciples usually become more attached to the psychological state that surrender brings a person. Repudiation of the guru (or even doubt and questioning) means a return to earlier conflict, confusion and meaninglessness. The deeper the surrender, and the more energy and commitment they put into the guru, the greater their emotional investment is. disciples will thus put with a great deal of contradictory and aberrant behavior on the guru's part, for doubting him literally means having their world fall apart. _This is why many who are involved in authoritarian suuender adamantly deny they are. Those who see the dissembling in other gurus or leaders can find countless ways to believe that their guru is different. It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender Great eh? I wish that this forum was more user friendly so that thoughts like these that are helpful to everyone could have their impact instead people having to sift through endless squabbles. Thanks Jim for telling me about this book. And for anyone who hasn't read it I highly recommend it Scott, have you read it? Oh, and thanks for the call,
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:24:25 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
I never said Maharaj Ji made the guy commit suicide. I don't know why he committed suicide. But, I guess GMJ wasn't being too all-knowing at the time he approved who was going to be in the brochure. How did that get past him? Also, why didn't the divine knowledge help that guy?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:34:46 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
'All-knowing' means different things to different people. To me it means knowing the essential thing, not super-natural powers. As for why the divine knowledge did or did not help that guy, my guess is that he might have committed suicide a few years earlier if it had not been for the Knowledge. So, he might have been given a reprieve. Who knows? Look, you well know, just as me, that receiving Knowledge wasn't a magical solutions to all the everyday problems. We weren't transformed into instant saints. I am still not one! In fact, a big lesson for me was to accept myself the way I am and to carry on from there; not to crucify myself trying to become something that I am not.
Maharaji's message has always been that life is a precious gift.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:47:38 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
I'm pretty sure that was the brochure. I don't know what happened to the other people in the brochure.
I had no idea I remembered all this stuff. I'm sure Jim, Scott, Anon, Brian, Matt and any ex-premie has plenty of stories to tell. I just wish they would.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 16:59:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
You're right. Crucifying yourself is not good. {How would you do it anyway?} Seriously, I was a fervent prmie at the time and I just overlooked the incident and didn't think much about it. I just thought it was sort of ironic in retrospect. You see Mili, you have absolutely no idea whether knowledge had any positive, or negative effect on that guy's life. I believe you when you say you like being a premie and appreciate knowledge. I just get a little skeptical about someone who rails against people who have a different experience. It makes me think you protest too much and maybe actually underneath is all, really doubt or are insecure of your experience.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 18:50:49 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
You're right. Crucifying yourself is not good. {How would you do it anyway?} Seriously, I was a fervent prmie at the time and I just overlooked the incident and didn't think much about it. I just thought it was sort of ironic in retrospect. You see Mili, you have absolutely no idea whether knowledge had any positive, or negative effect on that guy's life. I believe you when you say you like being a premie and appreciate knowledge. I just get a little skeptical about someone who rails against people who have a different experience. It makes me think you 'protest too much' and maybe actually underneath is all, really doubt or are insecure of your experience. I can assume it had a positive impact on his life because he posed for the photograph smiling, as you say. So it seems at least he was convinced it was positive. But we seem to be back to square one - my point is that if he was predisposed to commiting suicide, he would have done it Knowledge or no Knowledge. Of course, we will never know what went on in the guy's head. I am sure if he was in a supportive, positive environment, which is what the premie community generally was in those early days, it would have been an asset for the guy, and not a hindrance. But, then again, you are right, I have no way of knowing what really happened. But, somehow, you turned this whole topic around into a criticism of me personally, and I am afraid I don't see at what point this was warranted. I really dislike this patronizing attitude of yours. I don't protest. I am just trying to clearly state what I know. You should really avoid being so judgmental about other people. You are not perfect either, you know.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:12:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
No, I'm far from perfect. I just wonder why what Jim and I say upsets you so much. Why can't you just write it off by saying it works for you, but not for us? Does it bother you that we want to talk about the stuff that happened to us that we don't feel so good about? If you are happy with your experience with GMJ and knowledge, why do you care what we think?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:52:24 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
No, Mili, all-knowing means knowing all.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:55:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
Mili, your train of logic is loose, loose, loose!
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 20:43:38 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
I don't have plenty of stories to tell. I just did what everyone else was doing. My 'experiences' of MJ fall into the 'I kissed his feet' catagory. He never acknowledged me at any event that I attended. Hasn't responded to any posts of mine here either. Watching the entire 'external' experience flip-flop drove me away from it eventually. When I attempted to re-connect, I ran into the wall of secrecy that Maharaji has erected around himself: You have to become an 'aspirant' by the invitation of a qualified premie now to even have a source to the information. Wanna buy a tape? Ask an insider. I've had some here offer to get me one, or send me a catalog, totally missing the point of my original beef with the 'Lord' - that his earlier claims to establishing Peace On Earth have finally come down to merely running a private business complete with preferred customers gathered through referrals only. I'm not buying. I don't view him any different than I view any other TV evangelist huckster, and I came reluctantly to accept that was all he personally ever was: An Indian Marjoe Gortner, except that Marjoe dropped the act (and his coverage of Millenium for Rolling Stone Magazine packed more truth than the event he covered). As for statements I've seen here that MJ's only message is that 'life is a gift', the implication is always that he personally is the giver. Knowledge is 'received' from guess who? This is comparable to crediting your lover with giving you an orgasm. Like your capacity to experience it resides in the hands/organs of another. This isn't directly said, but the implication is there. That's why these people continue to buy/watch videos of MJ. Can't have one without him, ya know. He perpetuates this myth to foster and maintain a need in his followers to follow, all the while claiming full credit for their ability to experience themselves. Their appreciation of knowledge (their own personal lifeforce) is acted out in their loyalty to him. He has 'given' them this perfect thing: the gift of life - experiencable in your own living room at only $16.00 for 4 minutes. Ye, verily... Where there is no television, the people perish.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:01:38 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Deena cont.
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
Correction to the quote...If I give my life to music, not may to music as I so elequontely wrote. To continue with another quote ( I cut myself off the net ) Disciples usually become more attached to the psychological state that surrender brings a person. Repudiation of the guru (or even doubt and questioning) means a return to earlier conflict, confusion and meaninglessness. The deeper the surrender, and the more energy and commitment they put into the guru, the greater their emotional investment is. disciples will thus put with a great deal of contradictory and aberrant behavior on the guru's part, for doubting him literally means having their world fall apart. _This is why many who are involved in authoritarian suuender adamantly deny they are. Those who see the dissembling in other gurus or leaders can find countless ways to believe that their guru is different. It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender Great eh? I wish that this forum was more user friendly so that thoughts like these that are helpful to everyone could have their impact instead people having to sift through endless squabbles. Thanks Jim for telling me about this book. And for anyone who hasn't read it I highly recommend it Scott, have you read it? Oh, and thanks for the call, I agree. I think that quote had the most resonance with me in the whole book.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 12:50:44 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
Mili, your train of logic is loose, loose, loose! Yeah. It's a jazz, man.
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:13:52 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Suicide
Message:
I'm pretty sure that was the brochure. I don't know what happened to the other people in the brochure.
I had no idea I remembered all this stuff. I'm sure Jim, Scott, Anon, Brian, Matt and any ex-premie has plenty of stories to tell. I just wish they would.
I keep seeing negative stuff in your postings. Didn't you have any positive experiences? Was every festival and event you went to a downer? Was it torture every time that you tried to meditate? I know that you think Maharaji is fat, has zits and is money hungry. Did he ever say anything that made sense to you?
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