Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 3 | |
From: May 7, 1997 |
To: May 14, 1997 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:44:57 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Dear Anon & Jim, - Thanks for providing me with far more entertainment than I've had for a long time Anon. I do truly wish I was on the invitation list to your little convention! - I would just love to present a very fancy paper to you all that would give you all ample time to catch up on your missing jet lag sleep. Since I know you already slept through my last paper, I will try to clean up my act here and do some quick summarizing: - I am in no way suggesting that results we gain from our use of the modern scientific method are untrue. What I am suggesting is that these results may not the whole truth'. - It seems to me Jim, that you have decided that all knowledge that might derive from our inner experiences' is essentially worthless, (aside from the study of various psychoses, perhaps.) Anon, you are not quite as quick to write these experiences off, yet still you believe that these experiences speak to us of things that are so distant, that they are essentially of no value to consider in our day to day lives. - What I am suggesting is that perhaps there need not be such an antagonistic' relationship between science and spirituality. Maybe it's time we reconsider the possibility of there being some real value in listening to our inner selves. Perhaps it is somehow possible to utilize both spirituality and science, such that they compliment one another. Is that so far fetched of an idea? Sincerely, Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:13:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Spirituality's probably -- and again, I'm only guessing -- just a function of ignorance. The more we know the more we erode the domain that once belonged to the 'spirit.' We've been walking down this path, step by step, for a long time. Scott, do you agree that science is continually chipping away at spirituality's turf? I'm not asking you if you think there's some sort of core protected zone that science will never invade. That's a different question. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:17:11 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Dear Jim, - Absolutely, I agree. Superstitions and power games have almost always gotten folded into the brew of the exploration of the inner realms. I think that it is only good that reason and common sense be used to 'defrock' these common pitfalls of the journeys into such inner realms. - To me, however, it seems like our debate must sound much like the debate that raged in Europe just before Columbus sailed for America. - 'Don't go!' said a veteran sea captain. 'I know personally of many a ship that has gone that way, only to fall off the edge of the Earth, never to return!' - 'True.' said Columbus, 'But did they bring ample provisions, ample ships, and proper crews?' - 'Enough for 60 days at sea.' Said the veteran captain, 'Enough for any voyage known to man.' - 'Then we shall take provisions for 120 days.' Said Columbus. And off he went, into a world of strange enchantment. A world he had been told was inhabited by murderous monsters, strange mermaids, and possibly a great tumble when he reached the 'edge'. Yet he had seen enough and reasoned enough to know which stories were true and which were false, and he had enough personal conviction to bet his very life on his inborn ability to sort fact from fiction. - Of course Columbus' story is the story of a man who was driven by greed as much as the next man and who used the modern scientific method to convince himself of the truth of his convictions. Still, Jim, the inner world that you seem so wary of seems to me to be a great unexplored and uncharted territory. - We are all folks who have made attempts to find that 'New World', only to be turned back after facing great peril. You have decided never to sail those seas again. Some of us have chosen to sail them, but to never lose the comforting sight of land, admitting that there may be 'another world', but that it's simply not practical. Still others have chosen not to give up on the vision of a better way across the sea of those uncharted inner realms. - Your fears will not stop me from probing into this great unknown. But your advice still helps me 'provision' myself with a healthy skepticism and the awareness that folks like Maharaji have never even been there themselves! - Yes, science has 'defrocked' many a charlatan claiming to know the way. But just because there are charlatans out there doesn't mean that we should all give up and go home. To me it means that we should examine ourselves and find out why we allowed ourselves to fall prey. Then we should proceed on with this new knowledge, prepared to steer clear of the treacherous shoals of any future such pretenders. But give up the journey? Never! Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:35:45 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Scott, think for a sec. It's the other way around, isn't it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:12:01 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: That's the spirit Scott! Sorry not to engage more here but I am rather busy at the moment. Enjoy reading all you folks though..I confess some of my former posts (now thankfully archived) were a bit over the top. I think I may back off for a while in the hope that others will contribute more. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:50:50 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Dear Jim, - Whatever fulfillment you hope to achieve by your choice to denounce your inner self, I wish you the best of luck. While I feel I have not always understood the true yearnings of my own inner self, and have obviously been led astray more than once while trying to decipher the true meanings of these yearnings, still I will not denounce these inner yearnings. - I must apologize but I think I am in the same boat as Anon. I have to get back to work these days and catch up with the rest of my life a bit more. I do appreciate the opportunity you have provided me to process so much that I have been sitting on waiting for this opportunity for so many years. I will continue to read and enjoy this forum, I am sure. Take care, Scott
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 20:37:06 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The Mad Scientists Convention Message: Dear Jim, - Whatever fulfillment you hope to achieve by your choice to denounce your inner self, I wish you the best of luck. While I feel I have not always understood the true yearnings of my own inner self, and have obviously been led astray more than once while trying to decipher the true meanings of these yearnings, still I will not denounce these inner yearnings. - I must apologize but I think I am in the same boat as Anon. I have to get back to work these days and catch up with the rest of my life a bit more. I do appreciate the opportunity you have provided me to process so much that I have been sitting on waiting for this opportunity for so many years. I will continue to read and enjoy this forum, I am sure. Take care, Scott
A gracious retreat? Okay, if you insist.
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 19:43:43 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Deena to JW Message: JW- Did you see the post I wrote in, under White Light, in the last archive concerning David Smith? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 20:20:48 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: JW- Did you see the post I wrote in, under White Light, in the last archive concerning David Smith? Yes I did, and thanks. I didn't mean to scare you about smith, but I would be careful if you have any dealings with him. Also, I believe people do change, so maybe he has; at least I hope so. I guess I have some of the same questions for him that I have for GMJ. What does he think about what he did back then? Since he doesn't appear to have any direct control over people's lives anymore, he might be harmless, but boy, I would sure be wary. And there are one or two things I would enjoy saying to his face, to tell you the truth. I also remember something else. David actually carried around a little black book in which he kept notes about the ashram premies. I secretly got it once and read some of it when he wasn't looking. God, was that scary. I think he really considered me a subversive individual because I talked back to him and he said so in his little book. He also kept notes on who might be deviating a little from the straight and narrow, like who had a special friend or not, who failed to pick up the sword of service (actual quote that I still remember), who, like me, was a little too wordly; what was also weird is that he got premies to talk about other premies and a lot of people really identified with him and actually kissed his ass, basically. I think it was that phenomenon in which hostages and prisoners begin to identify with and emulate their captors. I think that was what was going on there. What was also weird was that it was only about two years later that the ashrams were shut down completely. One thing I have to thank David Smith for, however. His gross inhumanity and abusive behavior was kind of the last straw that got me out of the cult. I hung around for about 2 more years, but that really destroyed my faith for good. Also, Deena, I'm interested in hearing more about what you said about GMJ having axed the initiators. What is that all about? Is Smith the only one left? Are there others? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:26:43 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: There are only a handful left of instructors now worldwide. I don't know a number but he gave alot of them their walking papers and has talked about alot over the years. He came to the conclusion that they were not able to do a very good job of giving knowledge and that he could do it himself. Funny part is he had part-time instructors for a while and even had training sessions that one premie I know went to. Then he stopped using them (this was just before he started taking over the whole process himself) Even stranger was a few years ago I was at an event and he teased and hinted that he was going to make new instructors. Application forms were available and I even filled one out. Shortly after that he axed alot of instructors. OP probably knows (and will correct me ) more. Charanand, Balkas, Smith, these names I know because they've toured in Canada. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:52:44 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Deena et al Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: For a while there were no 'instructors' as such in teh West. I later found out that in India, the mahatmas' posts were never quite taken away. In the west, a couple of years later, Charananand and Belkis were the only instructors. then he reinstated a few more, who tour and spend time with aspirants. Belkis and Charananand are the only ones who do Knowledge session preparation - i.e., interviewing aspirants. Several international instructors have been touring in various areas - Dayalanand, Indra, Pow Ming (don't laugh, Jim & JW - she's Chinese). Sometime between September and December last year, Maharaji asked a few others if they'd like to become instructors. These people met with him in January and some are now touring in various areas. I'll try to keep my posts to facts. You can make your own interpretations. You will anyway. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:54:28 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: How are thesse people supported? Do they also have jobs? Does Elan Vital support them and if so, where do they live? Ashram-style? On their own? Does Smith get a salary from GMJ? I can't help but think that the lot of the reason GMJ got rid of initiators was financial. If they had to be supported it would leave less money for planes and expensive cars. Are any of the initiators married? Are they supposed to be celibate? I also know one guy who I lived in the ashram with that I talked to a few years ago. He told me that both he and his wife were instructors but that David Smith fired him but not his wife and that his marriage was on the rocks because his wife (whom I also knew) was more into the instructor inner circle and cared more about that than about him or their marriage. He was really upset about it. Ironically, he was one of the guys in the ashram that Smith had terrorized years before. All I could say was how could he continue to be a part of all that and continue to take shit from David Smith, whom he hates, and didn't he have ANY self respect? And do you know what he said? He said he still trusted that GMJ was in control of his life and knew what was best for him and hence he had to take what was dished out. Can you believe the drivel? That was just a few years ago. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:57:06 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Did Gurucharanand ever get married? If not, does he still have affairs like he used to? Who is Belkis? I don't recognize that name. Isn't Bill Patterson still an instructor? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:06:37 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Guru Charananand, from what I can see, prefers tennis to girls. He has his own small but convenient apartment, where he lives alone. Belkis (Bobby - do you remember Belkis?) received Knowledge in 71. She and her sister are from somewhere in the middle east - one of the Arab countries, perhaps even Iran, but I'm not sure. Belkis used to be known as Billy. Did you really miss all the posts about Bill Patterson, or are you pulling my cyberleg? Bill Patterson is experiencing virtual nirvana with some sort of techno techniques. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:16:00 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: OP - don't get all sullen on me! I WANT your opinion. In fact, I thirst for it. BUT -- I only want your honest opinion and I want to force you to address inconsistencies in your opinions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:25:45 (EDT)
Poster: op to Nigel Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: By the way, talking about people from the past - you asked about John Horton - yes, he's still a practicing premie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:33:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: How are these people supported? Do they also have jobs? Does Elan Vital support them and if so, where do they live? Ashram-style? On their own? Does Smith get a salary from GMJ? I can't help but think that the lot of the reason GMJ got rid of initiators was financial. If they had to be supported it would leave less money for planes and expensive cars. Are any of the initiators married? Are they supposed to be celibate? I also know one guy who I lived in the ashram with that I talked to a few years ago. He told me that both he and his wife were instructors but that David Smith fired him but not his wife and that his marriage was on the rocks because his wife (whom I also knew) was more into the instructor inner circle and cared more about that than about him or their marriage. He was really upset about it. Ironically, he was one of the guys in the ashram that Smith had terrorized years before. All I could say was how could he continue to be a part of all that and continue to take shit from David Smith, whom he hates, and didn't he have ANY self respect? And do you know what he said? He said he still trusted that GMJ was in control of his life and knew what was best for him and hence he had to take what was dished out. Can you believe the drivel? That was just a few years ago. With all due respect I now offer you some Mili-type answers: (Mili answer #1) Well I'm not married and even if I was I can 't imagine any woman who was getting it regularly from me caring more about anything. (Mili answer #2) If that guy was stupid enough to believe this Smith guy then he deserves to lose his woman. Besides, what's any of that got to do with Maharaji? I thought it was Maharaji you guys keep blustering about? (Mili answer #3) The guy was probably just a wanker like the rest of you weaklings who joined the ashram. Who knows? He might not have even met this girl in the first palce if it weren't for Maharaji. (Mili answer #4) Anyone that let's anyone else take control of their life is a real loser, man! (Mili answer #5) You know what you guys need? You need to see what real tragedy's like. Too bad you missed our own four-year festival here. Then you wouldn't come off so whiny. (Mili answer #6) All I can say, man, is that Maharaji's fun and so are the videos! I'm going to one tonight and no one's gonna stop me. (Mili answer #7) Why should we believe you, you lying scumbag? (Mili answer #8) JW, man, I hear what you're saying. But I bet if Maharaji knew for a minute what this guy's going through he'd give him his wife back. (Mili answer #9) Well, maybe if the guy meditated a bit instead of whine all the time, he never would have gotten fired in the first place! (Mili answer #10) What do you care about marriage, anyway? I thought you were gay. Anyways, why don't you guys just leave us alone already? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:37:25 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: You asked Deena and not me, and anyway I don't know many details about the financing of instructors. But I can tell you what I know: some instructors work part time for living expenses the community still hosts an instructor - i.e., is responsible for transportation, food, and lodging Elan Vital pays for some instructors' international travel expenses, but I don't know how that is decided One thing that is kept very clar - and it should be understood. Elan Vital does not pay for Maharaji's personal expenses. It pays for the event budgets - and I know that quite often they barely break even. I don't know details of how full-time instructors and/or workers in Elan Vital are supported. I know that there are a few positions that pay salaries, but have no idea of the dollars and cents involved. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:39:49 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: So how does Maharaji get money? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:01:20 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Maybe I'm thick here, but I didn't see any posts about Bill Patterson and I don't understand the comments about techno techniques. He's not an instructor? Not a premies? What! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:04:24 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: I seriously don't know his finances. There are personal contributions (not made to Elan Vital). There might be a percentage from some premie run businesses - again, not Visions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:11:18 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: He left, from what I understand, about 5 years ago. Others can tell you better what frame of mind he was in when he left, as I just found out about it last summer. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:13:07 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Sorry (again) - forgot to explain the techno techniques. Apparently he discovered a group that does some kind of mindbending stuff using computer technology, and that's what he's into at the moment. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:13:21 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Well, will wonders never cease. If there was one person who could put up with endless crap and contradictions and come up smiling, I would have thought it would be Bill Patterson. I would have thought he would never leave GMJ. Did GMJ ever say anything about it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:17:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: So, I assume Gurucharand is supported by Elan Vital or GMJ, as I assume he doesn't work. I also assume he has no obligation to be celibate and also isn't allowed to give satsang. True? It was pretty common knowledge that he was screwing around in the early 80s when he wasn't supposed to be, but maybe he's too old for that now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:21:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: You know, Jim, Mili is the best example of all the negative aspects of a cult I can think of. Just let him rant, he reflects so negatively on Maharaj Ji as someone extremely insecure in what he believes -- you don't need to do it for him, although you do it well. Oh, by the way, gay people are interested in marriage, and gay marriage may soon be legal in Hawaii. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:44:16 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: not in public. don't know about in private Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:52:13 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Let's call it 'he doesn't have an outside job' - he spends most time traveling. I don't know if you would define what he says as 'giving satsang' - I do. Yes, he's allowed to speak. So are all the mahatmas in India. Generally, the instructors do speak at the events set up for them. I also 'assume' hes supported by Elan Vital, since I've never seen a paycheck, etc. However, as I stated above, the communities to which instructors travel are responsible for all costs of the trip. Don't know about his sex life. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 06:46:11 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: He left, from what I understand, about 5 years ago. Others can tell you better what frame of mind he was in when he left, as I just found out about it last summer. His frame of mind? To leave the Lord??? Lemme guess... If the information that the President of Whatever quit takes 5 years to leak out to the faithful, and the information about MJ's current Way gets passed pronto, do you note any inconsistancies in the pipeline? Perhaps Charanand's still working on his old stroke, using tennis for a cover... Guess I'll know in 5 years... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 07:00:55 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: I seriously don't know his finances. There are personal contributions (not made to Elan Vital). There might be a percentage from some premie run businesses - again, not Visions. Previously: One thing that is kept very clar - and it should be understood. Elan Vital does not pay for Maharaji's personal expenses. It pays for the event budgets - and I know that quite often they barely break even. It's one or the other, right? How do you do it? Repeating
spoonfed 'facts' that are kept very clear, while on the other
side admitting that you don't actually know?
Really, Opie, this is pure bullshit. Premies repeat what they are
told, I know. How does that sit with you that you find yourself
doing it? Aren't you even concerned about your own mis-givings?
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 00:18:56 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Deena to JW Message: Pretty simple Brian, Elan Vital money is public info. It is a non-profit status organization. Maharajis personal expenses are not connected. They are not public. There are quite a few millionaire premies that I am aware of who could support M privately if they felt like it. Why all this fuss about money? The big questions are: What is Maharaji really up to? Is there anything to the experience of practicing Knowledge? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 19:08:53 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: Archiving & Archive Tricks Message: Dear Forum Participants, - The latest archive is now fully operational. Here are some Archive 'tricks' which I have compiled together here for convenience's sake: 1. If your links aren't set to expire every 5 days and you would like your forum links to properly show up as 'visited', now is the time to expire your visited links. Sorry, this would mean expiring all of your visited links, including your links outside of this forum. 2. While getting your first download of an archived forum may be a rather lengthy process, please be patient and don't try to move areound in the archive until your browser tells you it is DONE downloading. Otherwise, you may experience a few 'bombs' as your computer begins to recede into the computer 'Twilight Zone' of crashes and fatal errors. 3. Once your computer notes that it is 'done' downloading, you can then once and for all, save the archive to your own computer. In Netscape this can be done using the commands: File | Save As . 4. With Netscape, once you have saved an archive to your own computer, you can then easily call it up at a later date, by using the commands: File | Open File. Using this command, you don't even have to be logged onto the internet, yet you can still browse an archive from your PC. 5. Once you have loaded up an archive from your own computer in this manner, you can then utilize the hyperlinks and the threaded discussion index to move around within an archive. I have found that after sitting around and waiting for the slow and tedious loading process to end, my patience is soon rewarded. Jumping around from article to article is much quicker than before, expecially if I use my 'Back' button each time I want to return to the main index of discussion threads.
Good luck, and watch out for the 'bombs',
Scott
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 19:03:57 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Everyone Subject: why op apologizes... Message: So. All I have to do is leave this site for a few hours and you start a whole thread about me? Filled with theories, gossip, conjectures that you take as fact. First of all, I'm nobody worth making all these conjectures about. Second - Jim - why do you hold me to a higher standard than anyone else on this forum? A lot of questions are ignored, forgotten, dropped down the hole into obscurity. If I accidentally forget to address ONE of your caterwaulings, you follow me all over the page holding up the query until I deal with it. Third - my mother was Polish. I was informed by a very good source last winter that women with Polish mothers are always apologizing for everything they do. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 19:18:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: So. All I have to do is leave this site for a few hours and you start a whole thread about me? Filled with theories, gossip, conjectures that you take as fact. First of all, I'm nobody worth making all these conjectures about. Second - Jim - why do you hold me to a higher standard than anyone else on this forum? A lot of questions are ignored, forgotten, dropped down the hole into obscurity. If I accidentally forget to address ONE of your caterwaulings, you follow me all over the page holding up the query until I deal with it. Third - my mother was Polish. I was informed by a very good source last winter that women with Polish mothers are always apologizing for everything they do. Sorry Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 20:18:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: So. All I have to do is leave this site for a few hours and you start a whole thread about me? Filled with theories, gossip, conjectures that you take as fact. First of all, I'm nobody worth making all these conjectures about. Second - Jim - why do you hold me to a higher standard than anyone else on this forum? A lot of questions are ignored, forgotten, dropped down the hole into obscurity. If I accidentally forget to address ONE of your caterwaulings, you follow me all over the page holding up the query until I deal with it. Third - my mother was Polish. I was informed by a very good source last winter that women with Polish mothers are always apologizing for everything they do. OP - You said I was: obtuse, scatterbrained [and] irrational. Care to back any of it up? How about 'obtuse'? What? I'm not clear enough for you? What's not clear? Indeed, I thought your problem with me was I was too clear, painfully clear. 'Scatterbrained'? Please.... 'Irrational'? Come on, OP, you look like you're flailing. As for holding you to some higher standard, I don't think that's true. I can't think of any one but a few guru-lovers who've quibbled and evaded at every turn. But please, maybe I'm missing something. Where? Okay, let's cut the shit a bit. You yourself have said as eloquently as anyone that Maharaji is a study in contradictions. That closes the book for you but for those of us interested in taking a closer look at the guy that's just an introduction. We're INTO looking at him like we never did before, without rose-coloured glasses. You're not. You'd as soon hang out, laugh a bit, share some nostalgia and make some new friends. I can't speak for everyone here, just me, Bobby and Mili, but I bet most of us are digging all those aspects of Scott's ex-premie mixer too. But that's not why we're here. We're here to try to understand. No, not by following Maharaji's prescription. He changes it all the time and, besides, he's been busted for practising medicine without a licence. No, we're following our good ole common sense this time. You know, 'common sense is uncommon'? What are YOU really doing here, OP? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 20:26:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: And you STILL haven't answered my question as to whether you consider your participation in this site a service to Guru Maharaj Ji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 21:10:02 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: And you STILL haven't answered my question as to whether you consider your participation in this site a 'service' to Guru Maharaj Ji. nope - I don't. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:30:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: OP - do you think Maharaji is happy about your chatting with us? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:32:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Mili - to answer your question which was left on the archive, yes I think premies are a lot like Heaven's Gaters. You should have ssen the guy on CNN last night describing why he wanted to join the others. He really sounded just like a premie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 22:57:57 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Well thank you for saying so. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:01:37 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Mili - to answer your question which was left on the archive, yes I think premies are a lot like Heaven's Gaters. You should have ssen the guy on CNN last night describing why he wanted to join the others. He really sounded just like a premie. Like which premie? One of the new agers who lives in a commune in Idaho? Or one of the yuppies at HBO productions in New York? Or the headshaved noseringed teenager in Houston? Or the dentist on Long Island? Or the South American travel agent in Venezuela? The false tooth manufacturer in South Africa? ... etc. etc. etc. I know, I know. I just went back on my promise at the top of the page about keeping to facts. But these ARE all real people, so that's factual. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:45:34 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Jim, we KNOW that everybody thinks we are in a 'cult' and it's a no-no to have a guru, etc., etc. This trip has been lain on us for at least 20 years. But don't pretend to have all these humane motives of saving us from ourselves. The jig is up. WE know and YOU know that you are in this just for the naked sadistic pleasure of harassing us. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 02:00:19 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: sometimes. sometimes not. I'll let you know if I get any communication. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 06:04:04 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: op Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Jim: OP - do you think Maharaji is happy about your chatting with us? Opie: sometimes. sometimes not.
I'm a bit disappointed with this response. I was expecting
something like: 'I make my own decisions in life. Maharaji
encourages that...' or 'Of COURSE he don't like it!! Why do you
think I don't use my own name???' But instead I find this
response. What a letdown. I realize that using (or even choosing
for that matter) a name like 'Old Premie' to post under carries
the heavy burden of built-in credibility that accompanies the
image of an old battle-hardened veteran who speaks with
authority. Sometimes that's gotta be a heavy burden for you to
wear. Maybe you could just 'take off the mask' and post as a
person instead. Then I wouldn't feel so disappointed with purely
human responses from you. Or maybe I just need to start posting
under the name 'Skeptic'...
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 06:32:36 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: You are confused, Mili. This is not a 'convert the faithful' forum. It's not even a 'warn the newbies' forum (although they'd do well to read it to balance the videos). It's an EX-premie forum. For those wanting to deal with having thought just like you in the past.
You know what, Mili? I get nervous around people like you who use
the first-person plural as liberally as you do. You choose the
word 'WE' a lot? Are you a true multiple, or just a self-chosen
spokesperson for the confused in general?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:38:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: Thoughts have their own way of fighting for air. I can't say exactly why I want to convince anyone of anything. It's kind of like it just happens. You say New York's bigger than Mexico City and I find myself arguing. Know what I mean? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 00:25:05 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: why op apologizes... Message: I disagree with you here. I think that Jim has a problem and he is trying to work it out. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 17:26:08 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Harassment Message: I just read an interesting post from Anon to Bobby in the previous archive. Basically, what he is saying is that premies are pitiful and hypocritical (strange combination!), and that their peaceful demeanour and contentment is something that should be shattered by revolutionary ex-premies in order to save their (the premies') lives!? What bugs him is that we appear too peaceful and content and that this is not socially desirable. Now, if ever there was a kookiest ideology that I came upon, that has to be it! So, Anon is inciting peaceful Bobby who, in his view is not bloodthirsty enough, to join in the harrassment. Anon, what's your problem? Leave us alone. Why does it bother you so much that we are peaceful and content? I can't help but remember the scorn with which you describe premies at the program in Australia having a good time, getting a suntan, having the odd romance, etc. while you were busy gnashing your teeth with envy and contempt hiding behind some bush. What were you doing behind the bush? Are you another one of those anti-social types that were described in the psychological checklist a few posts back? Get off our backs, man. We don't need no saving from you! Capisce? And leave our guru alone. We all lead, and want to lead completely normal lives - and we do. Labeling us as cult members certainly is not helping our careers. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 17:42:15 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Harassment Message: Mili, you are the one who chooses to participate in this site. If you are feeling harassed, just go elsewhere and I'm sure no one will harass you. The only reason people get on your case is that you are fun to harass because your outbursts are so irrational .. harass,harass, harass. I must now remove my fingers from the keyboard so I can wring my hands together and laugh feindishly. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 19:20:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Harassment Message: Yeah Mili, you're right again. Anon, fuck off, will you? What do you think this is anyways, an ex-premie page? God, some people. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 20:31:11 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Harassment Message: I'm telling you we need to develop some major laughter emoticoms. I know what you mean, JW. But how, tell me how, can we share our laughter with the world? And let's not fool ourselves. There is some really powerful humour happening here. I know. I've felt it myself. Well, first, there are the doubters, the mentators. Sometimes we get really funny. All of us. Why even the other day Deena made a funny. But then there's Mili. And Chris. Yes, we need a new language. A language of the heart. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:35:26 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Harassment Message: Well, at least we know what this is all about, now. It's not about a sincere search for Truth. It's a campaign of sadism and harrassment. You are making one fundamental mistake, though. You assume that premies are idiots and helpless. That mistake will bury you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 02:23:44 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Harassment Message: Well, at least we know what this is all about, now. It's not about a sincere search for Truth. It's a campaign of sadism and harrassment. You are making one fundamental mistake, though. You assume that premies are idiots and helpless. That mistake will bury you. Mili, I think you are supposed to bang you shoe on a table at the United Nations when you make that speech. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:40:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Harassment Message: Well, at least we know what this is all about, now. It's not about a sincere search for Truth. It's a campaign of sadism and harrassment. You are making one fundamental mistake, though. You assume that premies are idiots and helpless. That mistake will bury you. Okay, Zorro, you're going to have to explain that one. Unless we're into more Mili threats....HOW will we be buried? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 16:48:32 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: The Raising of the Titanic Message: Dear Forum participants, - This time the Titanic didn't sink. I should have the newest archive ready some time later this evening. In case you were wondering how often to expect this procedure: Whenever the total number of messages displayed at the bottom of the forum reaches between 300 and 350. It seems that with increased traffic, I had to archive after only 5 days this time. Please remember to 'expire' your links at this time in order to be able to read the new forum correctly. I am still working on the 'expired link problem' with the folks at Paradise. Sincerely,
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 16:51:48 (EDT)
Poster: Scott: PS Email: To: All Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: PS: Concerning some of the lost portions of Archive #5, OP has been kind enough to send me the first third of the archive, I should have this added on to the existing archive some time soon. - Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 14:53:06 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: I've sat here and waited through two archivings, one of which, as you will have heard, was sunk. When are you getting back? In the last set of posts, I had to share the spot with a dithering JW who'd just lost his mind and was blaming it on me. So get back already, won't ya???? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 02:51:12 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: op Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: odl, so sorry; I only got back from my week away on Friday. It's now Sunday morning as I write this. I tried to find a response from you to my question about REALISATION but everything had changed. What's Scott been up to? I tried to search on the old archives but drew a blank so I assumed you'd disappeared into the ethers. So before Scott manages to bury us in another of his filing cabinets, did you manage to discover the answer? Does Realisation (or Realization) still figure in the Maharaji's book of 'Life, the Universe and Everything'? Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 13:52:49 (EDT)
Poster: odl Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: Sorry to hear you got rejected from the chat room. After all, signing on under a different tag keeps your true personality in check (cheque?). Did you see Chris' summary above? I don't mind answering your question, but I really don't want to get into heavy arguments and cosmic theorizing down here. After all, this spot is sanctuary, and the only squabbles should be over elbow room. Ok? I'll just do a preamble here, and then you or I can start a thread up at the top: M hasn't spoken about 'realization' as a be-all and end-all state recently. I do seem to recall that he's used the word a few times. I'm going to do some research for you, and will let you know what I discover. In the meantime, remember the hotel at the end of the journey satsang? Where he reminded us that the destination is not some fantastic place at the END of the journey where you can relax after the agonies of traveling, but that the journey itself is meant to be enjoyed? That message still holds. In fact, he recently did a series of videos called 'The Journey is the Destination'. Welcome back - I'm glad you're not Gunther. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 14:28:02 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: Hi odl; thanks for pointing out Chris's summary - is he the same Chris as CD? I'm very easily confused. It's a throw back to when I believed a 14 year old Indian kid was Master of the Universe. I never quite managed to get my brain cells back into any semblance of order! You'll have to forgive my cosmic theorising, but that's really my only interest in this little corner of the www. I hope you don't find it too heavy going and I promise not to squabble. I await the fruit of your enquiries on the 'realisation' question with great interest. The title of the most recent videos you mention 'The journey is the destination' does make me feel that BigM has moved the goal posts a little since my time. In those days, Realisation was the destination. Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 16:15:56 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: Hey, odl, are you going to the next chat-up party? They do seem a pretty up-tight bunch. Can you believe they rejected anon's 69 in his phone number? Reminds me of how the Victorians used to cover up piano legs! But it may well be going on way past my bedtime. Have you any idea how Pacific Standard Time relates to Greenwich Mean Time? I'll have to dig out my old atlas! As a little test, I'll time this message at around 21.15GMT and check it against the EDT shown in the heading. But what does EDT stand for? And how many hours is EDT behind/ahead of PST? This new technology is all very well but it can get very confusing to an old technophobe like me! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 17:21:16 (EDT)
Poster: odl Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: EDT= eastern daylight [savings] time. One hour later than standard eastern time. PDT = pacific daylight time. Pacific time is always three hours earlier than eastern time. Generally, Eastern time is five hours earlier than Greenwich time, but there used to be a time warp where the spread changes because England's daylight savings calendar is different from the US's. I don't know if the UK has changed that calendar in the past twenty years, it hasn't been a high priority on my Must Be Known list. According to your posting time, you're on summer hours now, thus 5 hours ahead of the east coast and 8 hours ahead of California. So if you want to get onto a 4pm chat line, you'll have to burn the midnight oil. What time is an old fogie like yourself's bedtime anyway? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 12, 1997 at 17:49:13 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: >What time is an old fogie like yourself's bedtime anyway? Hey, hey... less of the insults odl. Many thanks for sorting out the question of time zones. I'm very impressed. But if I'm 8 hours ahead of sunny California, surely I would need to log on at 8am for a 4pm PDT chat. Or have I got that wrong? BTW, did you get anywhere with the Realisation question? I find it amazing that it seems to have disappeared from view. If the knowledge is just another relaxation trip, why do so many premies still believe that BigM is Lord God Almighty? I hope you won't mind my asking you the $64,000 question but I'd be interested to know where you put BigM on the cosmic scale of 0 for a fraud to 10 for God come to lead us sinners to the promised land. Or am I getting heavy again? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 12, 1997 at 19:11:13 (EDT)
Poster: odl Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: If it's 4 pm in CA, it's 7 pm in NY and midnight in Merrie Olde. i.e. if you're ahead of the US, you've already gone through the time frame they're just getting to. I was just using Brit terminology: the phone operators in England say 'the US is 5 hours behind Britain' if you ask them. I've got some heavy HEAVY work deadlines between today and Wednesday, so have to postpone my own realization until then. Can I postpone your realisation as well? Seriously, I really mean to research as many of last year's event videos as possible for you, so it will take some time. Once I have an answer for you, I'll start a thread up above - agreed? One further note - 'sinners to the promised land'? I'd be hard put to give a rating on that one, since I don't believe we're all sinners in the first place. (I do know what you mean - just don't agree with the fire-and-damnation insinuation.) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 13, 1997 at 14:22:48 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: So I'd have to log on at midnight for a 4pm PDT chat? Well I might be able to make that. I could face CD et al far better after a couple of evening snifters than at 8am in the morning! I await your thread on Realisation with great interest - perhaps it would be better to wait until the magic 300 comes up and Scott cranks open another filing cabinet. But how come you have to sit through hours of video to find the answer? But, hey, I understand the problems of a HEAVY workload, so I'll leave you in peace. But before I go, do me a favour; ignore my heavy sarcasm about sinners to the promised land and just give me a number from one (Big M's a fraud) to 10 (he's god in bipedal mode). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:23:37 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: What's in the snifter glass? Cognac? You mean I have to be straight for the chat and you can be pissed - g ? CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 15:36:53 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: The goal is still the same as when you first got into M. Remember that it was always described as being impossible to describe. (Mango story ...) The words change at every talk, but what the words attempt to inspire just exists irregardless. The fundamental is still practicing Knowledge and having fulfillment by means of experience not rationalization. M said something like: Will people try to understand it? Yes, of course. Will they understand it? No. So wether you call it realisation, destination, peace or whatever, the goal has not changed. Something does exist to be discovered. CD (Chris) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 20:57:12 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: MJ used to say that he had meditated on Knowledge and just 'realized' it. I, and many others, took it to mean that there was a threshold of sorts that you could meditate past and not return to an 'un-realized' state. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 14, 1997 at 21:15:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The Raising of the Titanic Message: MJ used to say that he had meditated on Knowledge and just 'realized' it. I, and many others, took it to mean that there was a threshold of sorts that you could meditate past and not return to an 'un-realized' state. Well Brian, you obviously haven't gotten the jist of Maharaji's damage control. Like so many other mortals, quick to 'assume' but slow to truly understand, you might have misunderstood. See, words are tricky. You can't take them out of context. It's all subjective anyways. It's true for me. When did he say that? Oh he said a lot of things. His message never changes but it's always evolving. I don't approach Maharaji that way. You and 'many others' probably thought a lot of other stupid stuff, didn't you? That, more than anything, proves why we always need a master. The mind is tricky. Words are tricky. Maharaji's tricky. Seriously, you're absolutely right. Here's an instance where he didn't just move the goal posts back. He cancelled the game and tried to have the entire league history excised from the akashic records. My first couple of years as a premie were spent feverishly trying to do just that, REALIZE the Knowledge. Remember his parables about the ant scaling the wall, or the plane approaching 'mach two' or whatever? He had us jumping for a while. Leaping for a fruit that was illusory. Is there a single premie who would dare claim Maharaji's enlightened them? How about all the 'high' premies, the special premies? Guys like Garnet, or Joan or Maharaji's friends like Donner? Hardly? Well then how about the instructors? Nope, not no more. Well, how about the holy family? Nope, broke up. Well how about the faithful holy family members? Raja Ji? Durga Ji? Nope, they're not even allowed to give satsang anymore. Well who's left? Maharaji? Nope. Apparently, even he just keeps on learning. How about Shri Hans? You mean the renegade guru who broke away from and fought all the other gurus (who in turn broke away from and fought their corporate head offices)? Yes! Now there was a realized soul? How do you know? Well he looked so cool in slo-mo in the movie Satguru Has Come. Isn't that enough? Nope. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |