Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 3

From: May 7, 1997

To: May 14, 1997

Page: 4 Of: 5


Jim -:- Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:07:26 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:39:30 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:40:00 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:02:37 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:36:34 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:04:08 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:06:37 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:15:22 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:16:41 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:39:05 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:42:48 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 20:10:41 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:04:48 (EDT)
___Mili to JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 03:52:54 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 10:59:27 (EDT)
___Mili to JW -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:00:11 (EDT)
___JW to Mili -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:35:31 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:31:02 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 11:40:20 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 16:22:41 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 17:54:30 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 20:06:46 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Harlan's premie guestbook -:- Sun, May 11, 1997 at 11:36:36 (EDT)

Mili -:- Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 03:36:07 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 05:14:42 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 07:42:20 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:54:18 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:30:30 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:35:24 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:03:39 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:11:33 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:22:27 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:44:41 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 11:45:14 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 16:30:08 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate -:- Sat, May 10, 1997 at 17:59:19 (EDT)

JW -:- Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 02:16:11 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:03:11 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:16:29 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:07:49 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 14:52:34 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:12:23 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Drafted Into the Ashram -:- Fri, May 9, 1997 at 23:31:44 (EDT)

JW -:- Heavengate -:- Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:43:26 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Heavengate -:- Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:58:56 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Heavengate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 05:42:27 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Heavengate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 08:11:49 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Heavengate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:25:40 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: Heavengate -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:51:55 (EDT)

JW -:- The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:18:10 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:51:16 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:07:07 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:11:54 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:17:42 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:29:28 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:10:21 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:46:50 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:53:42 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 07:44:59 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:46:31 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate' -:- Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:10:34 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:07:26 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Am I the only one who goes there regularly looking for unintentional humour? Jus the other day some guy posted 'Every breath is different. Every breath is different.' I guess he would ahve really made his point clearer if he'd said 'Every breath is different. Every breath is different. Every breath is different.' but the joke's still there. Also, am I the only one who's been kicked off? Mili, how come you hang here all the time instead?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:39:30 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
This is just like your emoticon for heartfelt laughter. It loses real meaning on the Internet.

I hang out here because Scott has envisaged this place as a meeting point for premies and ex-premies. What drives me I guess is the same thing that drives you, in better moments - a desire for truth. Does it matter at all? I don't know. Or, maybe it's just become a bad habit I can't kick. I feel I should express my views over what I perceive to be blatant lies about Maharaji that are stated here here. My convictions based on my personal experience are very different from what you believe to be the facts about Maharaji. It's easy to see that the articles posted here are highly speculative and rumours and negativity are favoured. Some of the stuff in the Mishler interview is just lies. Besides, what would you do if I stopped posting - you wouldn't have as much fun, or as much to bite into, right?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:40:00 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Got a point Mili, it would definitely be less fun without you.
By the way, speaking of Mishler, weren't you the one who put up on the Internet that Bill Patterson satsang in response to the Misler interview? Given that Patterson dumped GMJ 5 years ago, don't you think its just a little hypocritical?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:02:37 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
What lies? Come on, Mili, one by one. Let's have 'em. You're absolutely right that you're a big delight here. But what about Harlan's page? Why don't you go there more? Why do you think no one really does? What do you think of the fact that I can't?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:36:34 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Look, either you are dumb, or you're playing dumb. As for Harlan's page, there is a nice civilized post by you there. The rest, which are offensive, are banned. Offensive means insulting our guru. Capisce?

As for the Mishler interview, the whole thing is dubious, a) because it is a testimony of a person who might have had dubious motives, b) it does not appear stylistically consistent, c) it is a very negative interpretation of events which could also have other interpretations. To cut a long argument short,why should anyone beleive a dubious transcript of an interview which could have been doctored at any time, when there are tons of video footage and testimonies of hundreds of people, along with loads of personal first-hand experience by yours truly, that testify to Maharaji as essentially a dynamic, intelligent, and benign spiritual master that he really is! Don't take my word for it. Watch some videos, or go to a program. Maharaji is not hiding out in some ivory tower. If you want to see him, it's very possible. Go see him and judge for yourself what he is really like. Quite unlike what Mishler describes, believe me.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:04:08 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Got a point Mili, it would definitely be less fun without you.
By the way, speaking of Mishler, weren't you the one who put up on the Internet that Bill Patterson 'satsang' in response to the Misler interview? Given that Patterson dumped GMJ 5 years ago, don't you think its just a little hypocritical?
Are you SURE that Patterson 'dumped' GMJ? Or is it just another rumour...
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:06:37 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Got a point Mili, it would definitely be less fun without you.
By the way, speaking of Mishler, weren't you the one who put up on the Internet that Bill Patterson 'satsang' in response to the Misler interview? Given that Patterson dumped GMJ 5 years ago, don't you think its just a little hypocritical?
Are you SURE that Patterson 'dumped' GMJ? Or is it just another rumour...
Anyway, it was what Patterson really meant at the time, which is historically close to Mishler. They had completely different opinions!
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:15:22 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Op confirmed it and I don't think she would lie about that. See her entry under Deena to JW.... I was pretty shocked myself.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:16:41 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
But don't you think that he dumped GMJ sort of lessens his credibility just a tad? Did you get his permission to put the satsang on the Net?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:39:05 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Op confirmed it and I don't think she would lie about that. See her entry under 'Deena to JW'.... I was pretty shocked myself. You know, that's cool. It just shows me how free people are to walk in and out of this. It's proof to me that it is not a cult. I walked in and out many times myself.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 19:42:48 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
But don't you think that he dumped GMJ sort of lessens his credibility just a tad? Did you get his permission to put the satsang on the Net? JW, stop patronizing me, or is it just pulling my leg? Did Scott ask MJ's permission to post his pictures on his site? C'mon man, give me a break. Besides, I took that page off, anyway. What he said sort of really matched my experiences, though. But I don't think I'll be heading for the techno stuff after Heaven's Gate happened.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 20:10:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Look, either you are dumb, or you're playing dumb. As for Harlan's page, there is a nice civilized post by you there. The rest, which are offensive, are banned. Offensive means insulting our guru. Capisce?

As for the Mishler interview, the whole thing is dubious, a) because it is a testimony of a person who might have had dubious motives, b) it does not appear stylistically consistent, c) it is a very negative interpretation of events which could also have other interpretations. To cut a long argument short,why should anyone beleive a dubious transcript of an interview which could have been doctored at any time, when there are tons of video footage and testimonies of hundreds of people, along with loads of personal first-hand experience by yours truly, that testify to Maharaji as essentially a dynamic, intelligent, and benign spiritual master that he really is! Don't take my word for it. Watch some videos, or go to a program. Maharaji is not hiding out in some ivory tower. If you want to see him, it's very possible. Go see him and judge for yourself what he is really like. Quite unlike what Mishler describes, believe me. Mili, dear, dear, Mili, the Mishler transcript is of a radio interview which I have a copy of. 'Stylistically consistent'? What the hell are you talking about? The fact that, for argmuent's sake -- and that alone -- someone 'might have had dubious motives' don't count for much. What if he didn't? Besides, your conjecture has no foundation. This is what you call 'lies'? Finally, your criticism about Mishler's interpretation. What re you talking about? His interpretation of how Maharaji was crowned in a slapstick shell game? Or how Maharaji was a drunk? How would you interpret those facts? (No, Mili, we're not back to your point 'a' or 'b'. We're jsut talking 'c'. In other words, Mishler's interpretation. Understand?)
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 21:04:48 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Harlan's page is as bland as the rest of the mental oatmeal dished up in the Divine kitchen. When I found this page I did't think it any better, since the only posts on it were you and Scott talking about the Icons. Turned out it was the first day it was up. I checked back in a few weeks and found that there was a real content posted by living people. Then I checked back at Harlan's page. Same old mush. I've been reading this ever since. Sometimes I check at Harlan's when I miss waiting for an applet to load... IMHO the reason that premies are posting here is that after watching videos, they are starved for content from someone who will personally respond -- even if it's just to say 'You are confused, Mili'. You know, company of the truth.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 03:52:54 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Op confirmed it and I don't think she would lie about that. See her entry under 'Deena to JW'.... I was pretty shocked myself. You know, that's cool. It just shows me how free people are to walk in and out of this. It's proof to me that it is not a cult. I walked in and out many times myself. As a matter of fact there were four or five years that I didn't practice at all. But life didn't stop! Actually not practicing was kind of beneficial. Looking back, what I called 'practice' was just my messing around. It was like stirring up muddy water in order to clear it up. After things settle down, it's nice to have a fresh start. I've said it many times on these pages, I haven't even SEEN Maharaji since 1982. But, I've watched a few videos. And that experience is as alive as ever.

You know, I've really made an effort to be honest in these posts, so it offends me when someone like Anon, or you for that matter, calls me hypocritical.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 10:59:27 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Mili, I'm not saying you're hypocritical. I said you would be hypocritical if you used Bill Patterson's satsang while knowning he had dumped Maharaj Ji. Since you apparently didn't know that, and since you've removed his satsang from the net, you action was not hypocritical in my book.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:00:11 (EDT)
Poster: Mili to JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Thanks, JW. That genuinely made me feel better (no kidding - I am as sensitive as the next guy.) And, you are right on the other point, too. I shouldn't get upset by what other people are feeling (or not feeling). As a matter of fact, I told Jim some time ago that I actually accepted his right to have his perspective, as much as it was difficult for me. I just hope that people really would be more responsible in what they say here and really check the facts. Maharaji as an arms dealer?! Why not throw in drug smuggling, too! See what I mean?
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 13:35:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW to Mili
Email:
To: Mili to JW
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Thanks, Mili. Yeah, I think premies, both current and ex tend to be a pretty sensitive group of people. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't have gotten involved in looking for truth and love in the first place, which I think we all were after, whether we feel we found it in GMJ or not.
As I've said before, many of the premies I knew in DLM were some of the finest people I've ever met, and I think my life is better for having known them. Sometimes I miss that feeling of community and common focus I felt while I was a premie. It's hard to explain to people what that's like when they haven't experienced it themselves.
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:31:02 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
What meat and potatoes do you dig your mind into these days? Science, medicine, philosophy, politics, law, business, logic, military strategy, sports, gambling, computer intelligence?
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 11:40:20 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Harlan's page is as bland as the rest of the mental oatmeal dished up in the Divine kitchen. Besides, oatmeal's pretty nutritious - chock full of vitamins, minerals, and comprehensive amino acids. Best way to start the day. And people have been known to live on oatmeal.
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 16:22:41 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
You know something? The basis of my post had to do with why premies are even reading these posts, let alone contributing to them. I realize that the tough questions posed in this forum just don't seem to show up on your screen when you read, any more than MJ has ever done anything in your constant presence to cause you any doubt. But still I have to wonder why Opie Magdalen continues here? Mili, I can understand. He lacks any first-hand experience with the floor behind MJ's couch to even make a personal evaluation of his own. Chris has a mind like a clothes dryer -- no matter what is presented to him, he lacks the ability to retain anything but the lint. But you, however, have a good mind. It seems to me that you choose selective blindness. You can be Mili, or you can be Chris. You can be 'the inside source' or you can be just another ignorantly devoted premie. And you flip-flop between those roles. You know that there is a difference between the cook and the recipe, yet you refuse to admit that the cook isn't inherently God just because the food tastes good. And you will probably not respond to this unless I dare you to. I hearby triple-dog dare you.
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 17:54:30 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Brian: 'Chris has a mind like a clothes dryer -- no matter what is presented to him, he lacks the ability to retain anything but the lint. ' You only seem to be offering rags to be dried. What's so hot about your intellect? What great theory are you considering?
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 20:06:46 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Chris: you weren't actually the main subject of that post. It concerned the evasive, or non-, answers to the question 'why do premies grownups prefer to post here rather than Harlan's page?' (I paraphrase) and other tough questions, and how some grownups only see the part of the question that they want to answer. My comment about you reflected my personal belief that, seeing that post, as you've seen other posts, you would probably respond with something that totally missed the main subject. Now go outside and play until dinner.
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Date: Sun, May 11, 1997 at 11:36:36 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Harlan's premie guestbook
Message:
Quite possibly this page might serve as a place where: 1.Former premies could connect with current premies to 'hash things out'. Obviously, we've been invited. You didn't have to triple-dare me. Especially not if you're going to be a grownup about it. This site IS more interesting than Harlan's page, but then the oj trial was more interesting than, say, a documentary on home office management. But which is more beneficial? I won't delve into your judgmentalism of other premies who post here except to say I often find that Chris simplifies and clarifies a lot of issues that I end up overcomplicating. Don't write him off that easily. Yes, I'm playing two parts here. Jim accused me of the same evasiveness and vacuous responses, so I said I'd stick to facts and he responded by saying he does like my opinions too. Certain items I don't respond to because they are beyond my personal knowledge. I refuse to acknowledge information that is based on rumor. When I see something that is blatantly wrong information, it urges me to post a response. When I see questions that appear to be a sincere thirst for information, and I know the answer, I post a response. When I see statements that are mostly conjecture, that may or may not have a basis in fact - but I don't know any details about the matter, I try to stay away from them. When we discussed the pie in the face incident a couple of archives ago, I think I was quite forthcoming about all I knew. You can be 'the inside source' or you can be just another ignorantly devoted premie. I'm not playing double agent here. Neither are all premies 'ignorantly devoted'. Again: if I know something, I'm willing to share it. If I don't, I'm not spending my time breaking into EV's information banks to produce results. And I think I've already given quite a few responses where I state what M means to me. At the very least, he is an extraordinarily dedicated individual who feels he has a gift to share with as many as might be interested in receiving it, and he spends virtually all his time seeking them out. It's mother's day and my family is insisting that I go have a meal with them, so gotta go right now. Let me know if there are specific items you want me to address or evade. Happy Mother's Day, Deena!
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 03:36:07 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
This is what Maharaji has probably said about Heaven's Gate, based on what I've heard him saying for the past 25 years:

'Here they have been given the greatest gift - life - and they threw it away. Instead of experiencing the greatest high of living life to the fullest by being aware of life itself, they chose death by drugging themselves with votka and barbiturates. Instead of seeing and appreciating the reality of the beauty of what the Creator has provided for us in this world, they chose the quagmire of their own sick imaginations. This is the ultimate result of alienation in a high-tech, consumer oriented, plastic-fantastic society. This is what happens when the dream world of Hollywood and watching too much Star Trek on TV is substitued for reality. Repressive scorn and ridicule on the part of the self-appointed zealots of society, instead of providing support and compassion, were in fact the decisive push that led the other poor souls to join their comrades on their escapist journey to the planet Zog.'

By the way, Jim, I just saw the photo of the surviving Heaven's Gater on TV. Strange, that's just about how I imagined that you would look like!
- Mili
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 05:14:42 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
You are confused, Mili. Very confused. This is my favorite gibberish by you so far, though. A Non-Quote! A Probability! Followed by an Imagine!! Hey, can MJ quote you???
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 07:42:20 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
Look, idiot, he has been saying exactly the same thing for 25 years, and that's what I based my 'quote' on. Get it?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:54:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
Look, idiot, he has been saying exactly the same thing for 25 years, and that's what I based my 'quote' on. Get it? Good try Mili! Brian, leave him alone! Mili, I think you're absolutely right. I think Maharaji would definitely say something like that if he hasn't already. But, I wonder if you don't agree that maybe his THOUGHTS are more along this line: 'Hmmm, that guy really fucked with his little sheep. Well, not really really but, ... yeah, well.....I guess I'm not so bad...huh.. yeah, I'm not so bad....he..he..hmmmmm. Cut their balls off?...Shit, I bet that hurt!'
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
Jim, you are constantly making the same wrong assumption - you are trying to understand him by comparing yourself to him, by imagining yourself to be him. Did it ever occur to you that it would have been easier for him to make a living as a pilot, or something, instead of the incredible task of taking the Knowledge to the whole world and having guys like you to deal with all the time? Airplane pilots make a pretty good living, you know, and MJ has all the ratings. But, he has undertaken a really arduous task of being spiritual master because he does have something substantial to offer, and beside he is doing it as a service to HIS guru. Man, if you were in his shoes, you wouldn't last five minutes.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:30:30 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
Yeah, I guess you're right. I'd never really thought of it that way.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:35:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
You are not serious.....do you mean a difficult path all the way to the bank? The guy has a 9th grade education for god's sake, and, from what I have heard, the attention span of a child.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:03:39 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
You are confused, Mili. MJ learned to fly AFTER he got his Perfect Master gig down. You are preaching to the people who helped finance his flying lessons, bought and decorated his plane(s) for him, set him up with a lifestyle that gave him free time to learn without having to flip burgers on the side like THEY did. No one is confusing MJ with themselves. Anyone can see by his outfit that he is a Satguru.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:11:33 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
Regarding the guru's arduous tasks I recall one satsang he gave at some festival after he had gone to Brazil. He was really put out because they drove him around in a FORD! Gasp! I remember him saying I guess that's what they think a luxury car is in Brazil. Poor, poor lord of the universe! How on earth could he be expected to drive around in a non-luxury car. He never even mentioned anything about premies in Brazil in his satsang, just about his deficient treatment there. That was the same satsang in which he bitched about the accommodations in Brazil as well.
He was all excited because they got a place for him with an indoor swimming pool, but then when he got there he found a bug floating in it!!!!! Again, he was very put out! Is that any way to treat the lord of the universe?
Also, once Randy Prouty told me that when GMJ travelled his clothes and related stuff, alone, not even his family's stuff, took fifty (50) suitcases! Randy said he used to bribe the baggage guy with $500 to get him to put in all the suitcases. Randy said as the plane taxied on the runway he would think: Boy I hope this thing takes off with all the extra weight! They also would usually buy all the seats in first class for GMJ and his servants, so he would have to deal with the common people. Obviously, this was before GMJ had his own Boeing 707. My, my how that man suffered for us.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:22:27 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
LIES! More Blatant Lies!! Tell him, Mili...
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 03:44:41 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
You are confused, Mili. MJ learned to fly AFTER he got his Perfect Master gig down. You are preaching to the people who helped finance his flying lessons, bought and decorated his plane(s) for him, set him up with a lifestyle that gave him free time to learn without having to flip burgers on the side like THEY did. No one is confusing MJ with themselves. Anyone can see by his outfit that he is a Satguru. Do you think the outfit is the reason the people who visited India in 1970,1971 were impressed by Maharaji? Why did those people set him up for success? So how many burgers have you flipped?
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 11:45:14 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
What's wrong with flipping burgers for a living? You guys are such elitists!!
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 16:30:08 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
What's wrong with flipping burgers for a living? You guys are such elitists!! 'Flipping burgers' is an analogy for earning your own way in life, rather than living high through panhandling the spiritually hungry with a line about being a simple Perfect Master who just wants to bring Peace to the World and needing a little help with the jet fuel bill.

But then you knew that.
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Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 17:59:19 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Maharaji on Heaven's Gate
Message:
What's wrong with flipping burgers for a living? You guys are such elitists!! 'Flipping burgers' is an analogy for earning your own way in life, rather than living high through panhandling the spiritually hungry with a line about being a simple Perfect Master who just wants to bring Peace to the World and needing a little help with the jet fuel bill.

But then you knew that. What is your occupation? Did you ever flip burgers at a job or dig a ditch?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 02:16:11 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
As has been documented on this site numerous times, I would suggest that the ashram premies, the initiators, and those who did service in places like DECA in building the Boeing 707, suffered the most in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult, probably because they gave up the most, in terms of personal freedom, material possessions, career and educational opportunities, family relationships, and years of their lives (and many, including myself, think those years were both precious and wasted). This does not include psychological damage and, many would argue, spiritual damage, which, while very real, are harder to measure and much more subjective.
There seems to be a widespread revisionist belief around among current cult members that people who were part of these institutions did so on a completely voluntary basis and that Guru Maharaj Ji really didn't care whether you lived in the ashram or became an initiator or not. But as those who were there can testify, that is utter bullshit.
As an example of how people were coerced into the ashram, take events in 1979 when I was community coordinator in Washington DC. Nearly the entire time I was there the resident initiator was Randy Prouty, and part of the time he was joined by Alan Imbarrato (god, was HE ever an idiot!). Randy continuously reported that it was GMJ's wish that everyone who could do so should fully dedicate by moving into the ashram. He, and I'm sorry to say with my assistance, embarked on a program to harass every available premie in the community to make that committment.
DC was probably an unusual community in the sense that many of the premies were very together, with successful careers in government, business and the professions. [Dr. John Horton, for example was from DC.] The ashram premies were by and large the exact opposite -- a pretty untogether, but dedicated bunch. I think many of the together community premies could not relate to the weirdness of the ashrams. Anyhow, Randy set up meetings with all the premies in the community who weren't married, or who were married but didn't have kids and basically inspired (read, harrassed) them to make the committment to the ashram. We also held pre-ashram meetings for these people as well. Randy related over and over things GMJ had said to him about the importance of total surrender through the ashram. As another incentive, anyone who began going to the pre-ashram meetings were allowed by GMJ to go to the ashram meetings he held at almost every festival. And we know the kinds of stuff GMJ said, now don't we? The pressure on these people was very intense and Randy said it was coming directly from GMJ.
Many of those people did move into the ashram and many of them ended up giving up their marriages and careers and going to Miami to work on the plane, into national headquarters and a number stayed in the community. I know several who feel pretty ripped off by that experience, and I must say I don't feel so great that I might have contributed to their problems.
I know the ashrams only lasted about 5 years after that, but I just want the record to be clear about how much Maharaj Ji was into the ashrams being there, how much people were harassed into moving in to them by GMJ's henchmen, at his direction, and that to premies who really wanted to surrender in the way GMJ asked, there really was no choice when it came to that commitment. It is also important to remember how much people gave up to be there. Some people may say it was a great experience, but many people feel they were really ripped off. I would just like to say again, that unlike what Mili says,it wasn't just some choice people made to be there, there really was coercion both to move in and to stay there.
It is also infuriating to me, as I have also said before, that after the premie moved into th ashram, like most other premies, Maharaj Ji had viritually no interest in them, apparently didn't give a shit what happened to tham, and then one day just ended the ashrams entirely, apparentl without explanation, after people had given years of their lives to be there.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 11:03:11 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
Okay, what do want? A Mili response, a Chris response? How about an OP response? No? A Mili Response? Again? Okay: Here's what Mili would 'probably' say: no - fuck that, I want to do a Chris response: 'I went to DC in junior high. Lots of nice buildings. Dr. John treated me when I had strept throat at a program. He told me I would get better.' Okay, here's Mili: Fuck you, JW! Why is it I never moved in the ashram if ther was all this pressure like you say. You guys just want to blame everything on Maharaji but I tell you I went to a video and it was fun! FUN! You hear me? FUN! As for Maharaji not caring about the ashram premies, that's what really got me about you guys. You guys always thought you wee better than us, like you deserved more attention or something. What Maharaji offers is for everyone. Everyone, stupid! Get it? EVERYONE! You know, sometimes I wonder why I even bother.'
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:16:29 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
Jim, I think you have quite a future in impressions. But you have to work on the GMJ one...
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 13:07:49 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
Jim, I think you have quite a future in impressions. But you have to work on the GMJ one... Yeah, Jim. Do Mili doing MJ! Please???!!!
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 14:52:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
Okay, what do want? A Mili response, a Chris response? How about an OP response? No? A Mili Response? Again? Okay: Here's what Mili would 'probably' say: no - fuck that, I want to do a Chris response: 'I went to DC in junior high. Lots of nice buildings. Dr. John treated me when I had strept throat at a program. He told me I would get better.' Okay, here's Mili: Fuck you, JW! Why is it I never moved in the ashram if ther was all this pressure like you say. You guys just want to blame everything on Maharaji but I tell you I went to a video and it was fun! FUN! You hear me? FUN! As for Maharaji not caring about the ashram premies, that's what really got me about you guys. You guys always thought you wee better than us, like you deserved more attention or something. What Maharaji offers is for everyone. Everyone, stupid! Get it? EVERYONE! You know, sometimes I wonder why I even bother.' Jim, how about a JIM response? How about YOUR personal experiences also? Personal testimony is very important, and very real and I (and Deena) shouldn't be the only ones doing it. It really brings things down to a human level. Can you and Anon and Scott and Brian be a little more specific about what happened to you in the cult and why you feel the way you do? [plus, you should do that other stuff too, which is also effective in its own right].
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 15:12:23 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
At a certain point it all breaks down, doesn't it? Maharaji's vacuousness through Mili's filter? I don't know. I'll see. No promises or anything, though.
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Date: Fri, May 9, 1997 at 23:31:44 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Drafted Into the Ashram
Message:
Jim already told his sad tale. He couldn't have any sex for 8 years. Combine that experience with a law degree and you get ...
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:43:26 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Heavengate
Message:
Another thing I've noticed in the press is that the Heavens Gate mass suicide is claimed to have left American spirituality confused about the difference between a cult and a true religion. Typical was an article in the New York Times entitled, A Fringe Millennialist Group That Used Disconnected Elements of Christianity. So, here is guide to the differences between a real religion and a cult.
1. A characteristic common to many cults is a belief in heavenly signs such as comets. Such pseudo-science should be carefully distinguished from credible miracles fully documented in the Bible, such as Ezekiel's Wheel or the Star in the East.
2. Modern cults often boast of contacts with exterrestrial entities, such as flying saucers or aliens, who bring them comfort or glad tydings from elsewhere in the universe. Such images are easily confused with true messengers like angels, whose reality is widely accepted by thinking people (see numerous gift shops, movies and televison shows).
3. Cults like Heaven's Gate teach that our bodies are mere containers of the soul, which death liberates to move to a higher plane of existence. These perversions of religion could easily be mistaken for the widely accepted Buddhist doctrine of reincarnation or the Christian belief of Heaven.
4. Cults also regard the body as a source of corruption. This extreme doctrine should not be confused with theologically sound tenets of asceticism found in many religions (cf. St.Paul)
5. Cults often urge their followers to live communally to avoid contamination by worldliness. This practice should not be conflated with well-established communities like monestaries, nunneries, Gush Emunim settlements on the West Bank, etc.
6. A pervasive characteristic of cults is their demand that members contribute money to the cause. Such pleas should not be mistaken for legitimate requests, such as those by respected evangelical ministers for faith offerings from viewers.
7. Cults also indoctrinate their followers. Such practices are different from demands that religion be taught in public schools, or that children attend parochial schools or religious acadamies.
8. Nearly all cults are dominated by a charismatic leader who claims to know the one true way to enlightment. This is an obvious borrowing of the Old Testament account of Moses receiving the Ten Commandments from God. (See also Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.)
Hale-Bopp? Well Hail Mary!
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:58:56 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Heavengate
Message:
[thunderous applause] This post merits publication - perhaps send it to the op ed page? (no, not the old premie ...) of the NYT - seriously. Perhaps rewrite number 7 a bit, it is the only weak statement.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 05:42:27 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Heavengate
Message:
No newspaper would have the cajones to print it, other than your basic Free Times type papers. Everyone else would be afraid that readers would actually GET the point, leading to a nasty paper-burning rally down at Saint Bingo's Cathedral.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 08:11:49 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Heavengate
Message:
Good morning Brian - Welcome to purgatory! (actually, your speech patterns have vastly improved from your first few posts. thanks for following up so carefully - I think you've answered virtually every thread on this page)
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:25:40 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: brian
Subject: Re: Heavengate
Message:
I did forget to mention one little thing, about balls - whether you're busting them (see re Do's woman friend, below) or using them: when you write about cajones, you're talking about dresser drawers. If you mean balls, say cojones.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:51:55 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Heavengate
Message:
Of COURSE I was referring to dresser drawers! You musta thought I'm a nasty boy :)
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:18:10 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
It was too bad Newt Gingrich was in China when the Heavens Gate cult crashed. He wasn't around to blame liberal Democrats, the welfare state and McGovernites in the White House for the mass suicide. But his fellow conservatives picked up the tar brush. The New York Post claimed that church-and-state separatists who oppose school prayer and such have so diminished the role of religion in American society that wackos like Marshall Appelwhite have easy pickings. David Gelernter of the Manhattan Institute suggested the same. Despite the media impulse to find great meaning in this act of madness, I think it is probably best to resist the urge.
But if you must have a theory, how about this one: Appelwhite was reported to be a repressed homosexual and possibily horrified by his own sexuality, taking cues from a homophobic society. He was so horrified that he had himself castrated and concocted a theology that denied all sexuality. Had he grown up in a land where gay people were not stigmatized, thirty-nine (now forty) people might be alive today. It also goes to show you that a cult can be formed around just about anything. Well, it's just a theory.
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Date: Wed, May 7, 1997 at 23:51:16 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Sorry to burst your bubble, JW, but you're theory's not new. In fact, that's the first theory I heard after they'd discovered the castrations and tracked down who the leader was. He met his soulmate (the woman, can't remember her name and don't have access to it now) in an institution that he'd signed himself into hoping to get cured of being gay. She was a heavy duty Bible-ogian who got him started on the Christ thing. Do you think she had anything to do with the castration? (no, Jim, I'm not trying to distract the forum. I'm really interested in the Heaven's Gate thing, too - and wonder how people could seriously believe that if they got themselves a roll of quarters and a five dollar bill, and stuck their driver's license in their pocket, they would be able to hitch their way to another dimension. No matter what you think about all the other 'cults' put together, this is the weirdest one yet. I can't even feel sorry for the victims, because their whole premise was so laughable. And they would have to choose a comet named Hey Lee Bopp!)
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:07:07 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Are you suggesting the woman was a ball-cutting bitch? How could a sweet premie suggest such a thing?
You see dear, the new theory is the homophobic society part. Get it?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:11:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
OP - you know you're inviting some obvious comparisons, don't you? What do you think we looked like lining up for hours to kiss the feet of a fat little Indian teenager who claimed to be the Lord of the Universe and Saviour of Mankind? Chopped liver?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:17:42 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Sorry again again. That WAS suggested in the article I read. I'll have to try to find it. I'm not home now - so no access to any of my usual sources.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 00:29:28 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Yes, I know all the comparisons you make. I'm not suggesting that the premie world was not weird to some people. To a lot of people. But there was some precedent - no? Even if it didn't fit into the culture of this country. And Catholic nuns and priests do 'pranam' during their confession. I can't really find justification in comparing anything that happened in DLM to: traveling around the country as a closed little group, speaking to virtually no one about your planned escape from the earth, physical mutilation, TOTAL and ABSOLUTE break from old friends and family, and belief that by breaking your link with the source of life in your body you will attain a higher existence. I read an article about their day by day activities about a week before the Deed, and they apparently flew to Las Vegas for a day of 'fun' just before the suicides. The author of that article was a little dense - he mentioned that they had all gone together on a gravity defying ride and said that at least they had a good time every once in a while! Obviously, their whole trip to Las Vegas was a test run, to see how they would do in zero G. Where in DLM have you seen that one?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:10:21 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
I don't think the differences between Heavens Gate and DLM are of a qualitative nature, just of degree. There were, and probably still are, premies who would commit suicide in a minute, the initiators and the ashrams premies would be prime candidates, if asked by GMJ, not that I am suggesting he would ever do that. I think GMJ likes the lifestyle he has on the good old earth, thank you.
Heavens Gate attracted a very select group of people who felt they fit nowhere in the world. GMJ attracted a more diverse group, but I think the core few (probably less than 10% of those who received knowledge) who remained and actually followed him had some shared characteristics. We can discuss the theories on that at another time.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:46:50 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Jim, we KNOW that everybody thinks we are in a 'cult' and it's a no-no to have a guru, etc., etc. This trip has been lain on us for at least 20 years. But don't pretend to have all these humane motives of saving us from ourselves. The jig is up. WE know and YOU know that you are in this just for the naked sadistic pleasure of harassing us.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 01:53:42 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Good Morning Mili! Welcome to purgatory...
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 07:44:59 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
Good Morning Mili! Welcome to purgatory... Yeah, it's midday to me already. Hmmm, purgatory... does that have anything to do with purgatives (laxatives)?
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 10:46:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
I went with a bunch of premies to Disneyworld where we gave satsang to people we lined up with for Space Mountain. It wasn't a whole lot different, beleive me. As for precedent, nothing looked whackier than Mr. M, the first of the Rolls Royce cult leaders, gorging at Baskin And Robbins even while his 'blissed-out' devotees sang the praises of the Lord who had come to save us all! True, we didn't break quite so much from our families. There's a small difference you can work with. Go for it.
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Date: Thurs, May 8, 1997 at 12:10:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Politics of Cult or 'Heavengate'
Message:
I disagree that the family breaks in DLM weren't in some cases just as great as those in Heavens Gate.
Also, if we'd had the money, instead of buying Boeing 707's for the lord, we'd probably have been going to amusement parks (looking like cult-idiots) as well. Besides, how do you think that colored water thing we did in the Orange Bowl looked? I remember Life Magazine did a spread on it in 1979 that made it look even weirder than it actually was. We looked like the weirdest cult in the world. [By the way, the guy at national headquarters--I can't remember his name, (dark, jewish, cute), worked with Life Magazine and really thought it would be a positive story. After the magazine came out and it made Maharaj Ji look like such a wacko, he had a nervous breakdown and was sent to some premie house, I think in Manitoba, never to be seen again.]
No, we didn't go to amusement parks or Las Vegas, instead, we listened to our chubby leader give satsang about going to Disneyland and bitching that it was too crowded there. What a terrible life he had to bear. Did the cult every buy him his own theme park so he didn't have to put up with that?
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