Subject: so you think you're lost? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:55:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was 60. Now she's 97 years old and we don't know where the hell she is.

Subject: Forest Gump is Smart O/T From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I watched 'Forest Gump' last night again. Have you seen it? At one point Forest starts running. And running for over 3 years. People ask him why are you running? For the environment, women's right's, endangered species, etc.? He just say's 'I just feel like running.' Soon he has followers. About a couple of dozen people running behind him not knowing why he's running but thinking he has some great message to impart. After years of running from coast to coast to coast he feels like stopping so he does. Everyone behind him stops too. He faces the people behind him and say's I'm tired I'm goin' home. Forest always knew where his home was, Alabama. A few of folks who were 'following him' look at him and say ''What are we supposed to do now?'' It's a very good movie. I've seen it about four times. The first time I laughed at the improbability of all the things Gump accomplishes. I laughed at many silly satirical moments. This time I saw the satire as seriously funny and enjoyed that too. When Forest is a boy and his spine is crooked he has to get braces for his legs. His Mama played by Sally Field says: ''Forest don't let anybody ever tell you you're different, If God intended everybody to be the same he woulda had everybody wear braces.'' We had weekend guests and one is a brother to us. He is almost illiterate in that he reads and writes very slowly and has a tough time expressing himself verbally too. Yet he is a brilliant woodcarver and furniture maker. Brilliant. It's all up in his head. He sees a piece of wood in the forest, like today before he left to go home, and I just asked him ''what's that gonna be?'' He said, ''Looks like a bear to me.'' I love having friends of all kinds, shapes, colors and styles. It's a good day, spring is here (for now anyway) Love, Cynthia

Subject: A time to live and a time to die. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:04:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to Marianne and everyone for your messages of condolence. The older we get, the more we have to deal with death. Sometimes I think, “You die young and lots of folk come to your funeral, or you die old, go to lots of funerals, and nobody comes to yours, because you’ve already been to theirs.” I’ve said, “Good-bye,” to both my mother and father in the past couple of years. I’ve also helped to organise, and in some cases, conducted, the funeral services of several friends, and more sadly, for their children. When somebody close dies, it leaves a big hole. When I was a premie, I believed that this hole could be filled with “knowledge”, or “maharaji”. This was naïve. Helping look after an old friend, dying of cancer, for a couple of months, showed me that there was absolutely nothing Rawat or his yoga techniques offered to help the situation. It was on the same level as the priests, who hover around hospices and intensive care wards, hoping to convert a soul or two at the last minute- as welcome as a fart in a sleeping bag. I’m grateful and happy that I’d dumped Rawats mumbo-jumbo before having to deal with my parent’s deaths. It’s inane clutter, of no benefit whatsoever. It serves only to separate you from your feelings by telling you it’s all an illusion. Well life isn’t an illusion. It’s very real. And it’s spiced with joy, sadness, laughter and tears. Rawat wants to take all that away from his followers, and distill it into devotion to him. Well he can fuck off. Love isn’t some remote, long distance, one-way, spiritual relationship. It’s something that happens between two people who touch, talk, laugh, care for, communicate and share their lives together. It isn’t about supressing your individuality. It isn’t about bowing down to a wealthy, spoiled, self-centred, greedy materialist, or poking yourself in the eyes and telling yourself you’re looking at God. It’s about being yourself and sharing your life with someone you care for. And when that person dies, the tears, memories and sadness are part of the love too. Rawat never encourages anyone to love their families and friends. In Premie world, this is seen as a distraction. A Premie’s love (and money) should really be aimed at Rawat, and nobody else. This stinks. It’s anti-life, anti-freedom, and anti-love. But if you’re stuck in the middle of a cult, you can’t see it. The price of being a “chosen one” is your humanity. This is too high a price to pay for anything, let alone four yoga techniques and a ignorant master who’s after your dosh. Anth, glad to be back on Earth again.

Subject: Well said Anth. From: Kelly To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:22:05 (EDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Absobloodylutely! First of all, I'd like to offer my sympathy for the loss of your Mother. I too have said goodbye to a few friends lately, my husband has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, so I have been looking death in the face one way or another. I sat for a while with my dead friend's body....there was something missing!! But there was something present in abundance...there was love, there was peace...he had totally accepted death. He had said goodbye to fear. He embraced death as a new adventure. I am also so glad that I had shed the cult before all this happened....I was still in when my mother died. Apart from being told to let the dead bury the dead, I just didn't get to spend any time with her to say goodbye...So...30 years later, I'm still reliving her death. There are those who might argue that this is all my problem and nothing to do with my involvement with the cult, aka DLM, aka EV, aka the organisation. That my personal problems are my own and do not reflect upon the cult in any way. That the master's message is so simple and timeless and if I can't be blissful and grateful all the time, I'm just not doing it right. It's such a farce! you're right Anth, he has nothing to offer at a time like this but corny platitudes. In Rome '96, he told a story about someone who came to him very upset because his father was dying...How old is he 'M' asked? 82 was the reply. So then M made a big joke about how come you're surprised? Didn't you know this was coming? etc etc. What a bastard, what a sorry bastard.....talk about missing the point....I don't think he'll ever get it. My very best wishes to all who are recently bereaved, to Anth, to Pat D, to Gerry and to Vicki. Love Karen

Subject: A beautiful post Anth, thankyou [nt] From: Loaf To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:12:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks, Anth From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:49:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was the best Sunday sermon I've read in ages. You were lucky that you were out of the cult before your mom died. Unfortunately I was still a true believer and tried to satsang my mom as she was dying. The funny thing is that, as the words came out of my mouth, I saw that they were empty meaningless platitudes and could not compare with her strength and serenity in the face of her death. I think that was one of those subconscious drips because a year later I was out of the cult. What a treat to have you back. I hope you stick around for a little bit. There are four wonderful newbies from the UK all waiting for you to drink them under the table at the next UK Latvian night. :C)

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Sir Dave To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:33:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When my Father was dying, I cried on a nurse's shoulder and she had great love and understanding in that moment. My Dad had a smile for me on his face when I came back into his room and that was his last conscious act. After that he lost consciousness and slipt away. When my Mother died the nurses were also a great help to me. So to was my brother-in-law. He by the way, is making another attempt at becoming a Conservative MP. This time he might make it. The nurses who see it every day are truly remarkable. So too are the doctors. One doctor was very upset when all his treatment had failed and my Mum was dying. I was glad to be able to give him some kind, reassuring words. They're gone but not forgotten. We'll see them all again in the great theme park in the sky.

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: eb To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:21:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two of my close friends died during the time I was filtering everything through 'Knowledge'. When told of the first, I responded: 'I hope her next life is better.' News of the second received even less response (though we had been lovers). I went through the grieving process for each, and others, after being deprogrammed. The backlog of grief overwhelmed me, and, for a time, I adopted the philosophy that life is one, long grieving process (and god has a terrible sense of humor--giving us consciousness of life and death). I cried for 2 years after my father died, and experienced all the stages of grief including the acceptance and eventual feeling of peace and comfort. Strangely, I feel his essence always with me now... silently lucid. All this to say my thoughts are with you, Anth and Gerry. eb

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:15:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beautiful words Anth and David. This is such an uplifting way to begin my Sunday. I am flying to Florida soon to be with my 95 year old dad who broke his hip recently. He is recovering well and that's comforting. What is most amazing is his expressions of gratitude that his children really care about him. This is a guy who, until a few years ago, would never use the 'L' word. One of us would say 'Love you dad' and he'd reply 'Ditto' or 'Me too'. Now he feels his own mortality and knows that love of family and friends is most important. I am grateful that my heart is open to dad and mom in these last few years I'll be able to be with them. Love to everyone and especially to you who are feeling pain and loss. Richard

Subject: from exiting devotee of Muktananda(OT) From: Dave Punshon To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 06:52:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the last paragraph from an open letter to Swami Muktananda from an exiting devotee. I feel this way about PremRawat 'Previously, I had found it possible to rationalize most of your behavior, Muktananda, and to simply suspend judgement on the remainder. But I could find no way to rationalize such deceit, such duplicity, as you have apparently practiced on your faithful disciples over the years. I could find no way to make it fit my conception of 'human perfection.' I believe that when a Guru begins to lose sight of moral values--whether because of senility, madness, illness, or whatever reason--, and regards others as objects to manipulate and use for his own ends, and when he begins to resort to threats of violence to hide the lie of his personal life, it is a disciple's DUTY to leave that Guru. It is therefore with much regret and deep anguish that I feel forced to terminate my discipleship to you. May God protect and guide you. Sincerely, Stan Trout aka Swami Abhayananda

Subject: Who'd have thought... From: AJW To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:11:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, Who'd have thought that the followers would end up wiser, stronger and braver than the masters, most of whom seem to be disappearing up their own holy arses. Anth, if you meet a Buddha, kick him in the bollocks. (A sure test of enlightenment.)

Subject: yes Anth, it's called... From: Dave Punshon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:30:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bio-feedback when a master disappears up his own arse... atb Dave

Subject: Not really OT, Dave From: PatC To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:55:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like you, I agree with it and couldn't have said it better.

Subject: Yeah you are right Pat (nt) From: Dave Punshon To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 14:42:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: test nt From: test To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 23:45:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Abi To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 20:04:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Webmaster, dear all, over the last year my health has failed and I've been diagnosed with a life-thratening lung disease. My emotional and mental health have also broken down. It is with a full and deep respect for all the people who have supported me in the last few years that I must now request that the postings I have made on EPO be removed. Out of respect for my privacy and for my health, I also ask that people refrain from posting intimate details about my life. The traumas of the past have impacted on my present health which has in turn impacted on my ability to take care of my son. I cannot allow the traumas of my childhood to affect the quality of my sons childhood any longer. I need to heal and put the past behind me and it is for this reason that I request that the Webmaster remove my postings. I also ask that people refrain from posting my story on other websites or abusing intimate details of my life to further their own agenda. I will not change my position on this matter. Thank you all for your compassion, integrity, courage and wisdom. You helped me speak truth to power. I trust you will understand my position and respect my need for privacy. I do this for my son. Susan, you understand the sacred bond between mother and child and the importance of healing. I will always admire you. Abi

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Kelly To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 14:32:50 (EDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Dear Abi, I knew that your long courageous fight for justice had compromised your health, but I am so sorry to hear how bad it has got. The dynamics, which prevail within the cult, produce extraordinary levels of denial, obfuscation and dishonesty, and when faced with your simple tragic tale of abuse they went into overdrive. A year or so ago, I joined in your battle for a short time, I had some recent information to add to the picture. I know how this involvement affected me; I know how stressful it was. Trying to talk to premies about this is like bashing your head against a brick wall. At that time my admiration for you grew and grew. I realised then, what you had gone through day after day, month after month, year after year. I don’t think I could have done it. But I thank you from the bottom of my heart for fighting so long and so strong. You’ve done it for all of us and you’ve done it for every innocent victim of power abuse. I also understand and respect your decision to put the past behind you and concentrate on your healing. You must look after yourself. You have fought so hard, you need to rest and you need to look ahead to the future for you and your son. You’ve done enough Abi. Please look after yourself. However, if you ever feel you need to tackle this again, if there’s any unfinished business, just call on me…I know I’m not alone in saying that I’m here for you if you need me. Please phone me or e-mail me if you’d like to talk. With love Karen

Subject: Thanks Abi. From: AJW To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 08:59:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Abi, I’m sorry to hear about your health, and hope you are able to put all your energy into getting yourself back on your feet, living your life the way you want. I greatly admire your courage and strength, (and that of Susan), in standing up and speaking out against Jagdeo’s crimes. I know how difficult this has been at times, and I know how the cult have put pressure on you to keep your mouth shut. But you didn’t. And as a result, the skeletons have tumbled out of Rawat's cupboard and shown us all what a coward he was in allowing Jagdeo to carry on with his despicable business. You and Susan both did the right thing, and as a result, we’ve seen another, darker side, to Rawat and his cult. Exposing this pile of crap has had a massive impact in alerting everybody to what’s really been going on behind the “Perfect Master” trip. Both Rawat’s and Jagdeo’s behaviour has been despicable, and if it wasn’t for your courage, nobody would have known about it, and been warned about what a dirty, tacky little cult Rawat has been running. I’m sure you are doing the right thing, and as always, you have my full support and best wishes. Take care, Love from Anth, being lazy in the sun on the cliffs.

Subject: Love Always, From: in spirit To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 04:34:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: such

Subject: very couragious From: david m To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 19:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi..I have followed your story since the beginning..Abi My heart goes out to you..Good luck..and thanks..peace..Love...David

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Susan To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 11:59:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I am so sorry you are so ill. You do need to put yourself and your family first. I totally understand about not wanting the ghosts of your own childhood to haunt your son's. I am in the same boat. I have been really upset with the Catholic scandal. It has stirred up a lot of emotion in me. Mostly how they could, for so many years, cover up these horrible crimes against children, moving the pedophiles around. Obviously, I feel real anger when I read this. Sometimes I think about trying to do 'one more thing' to be sure they have heard us, and believe us, about what a monster Jagdeo is. Then I think I have done quite a lot and should just realize I can't change people whose whole belief system is built on denial. I like you, always wished more victims we know of, and those we don't, would have the courage to come out. I too Abi, admire you for fighting so hard. You have done more than enough. You do have someone who needs you more than anything in the whole world, and your priorites are in the right place My prayers will be with you for your health emotional and physical. My love, Susan

Subject: Susan... From: Cynthia To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 12:15:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Susan, I've been waiting for you to post. I'm very sad about Abi's health. I'm also angry about the Roman Catholic Church for what it's done after years of cover up, lies, and blaming victims. Several years ago when I found myself up to my ears in books about child sexual abuse while trying to heal, and becoming enraged each time I saw a report on the news, I came to the conclusion that I would not watch those reports or read those books anymore. The books I have are in a large box in a closet. I still don't look at them because I don't need them anymore. It was hard for me to do that being so hypervigilant yet I succeeded in getting in the habit of switching the channel or muting the report or leaving the room when a report came on TV. Even with this RCC stuff I have to limit it. It's so triggering. I'm not telling you what to do; I'm telling you how it was for me. These days I can watch a bit about it. Being raised in that church with priests and nuns in my extended family, as well as the many devout Catholics around me all the time immersed me into that religion for many years. I'm over the religion. I also feel gratified for those victims who have dared to speak truth to power as Abi and you have done. The RCC got caught and that's good. I wish you the best as I do for Abi. Nothing in life is worth losing ones health and the ability to care for a son or daughter. Nothing. I think healing is much more difficult in some ways for survivors with children. I'm often amazed at women survivors with children. You do have something to live for: the sacred bond of Mother and child is primal and primary. I'm rambling, forgive me. I'm feeling a lot of things right now but my heart is full of hope. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Bolly Shri To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:59:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I wish you the very best and respect your decision. Balancing the various priorities in life is always harder where there are children to consider. Look after yourself and best regards to your son. He has a mother to be proud of. Love and best wishes for the future, Bolly

Subject: Bye Abi From: PatC To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 04:02:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I am very sad to hear about your health problem but I am very glad to hear about your decision to retreat and be private once again. I never was happy about your very public stance and knew that it must be difficult for you. So I seldom ever referred to you here and I definitely understand your concerns and will honor them. Thank you for your courage and honesty and I wish you all the very best.

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Cynthia To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 00:55:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I'm saddened to hear of your illness. You always sober me with your honesty and fearlessness, Abi. I completely understand your request and be assured that I will always respect your wishes. I hope you know that what I've written regarding your childhood was always on your behalf. Turning this page is also your gift to me. Thank you. The most important thing is for you is getting well and being with your son in privacy. Live well and happy with love. Get better. You spoke truth to power with dignity and courage. I wish you the best, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Dermot To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:08:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's sad news Abi ..very sad. Very best wishes to you and your son Abi.I hope you are able to spend a long time with your son. I'm sure all here will abide by your wishes. Warm regards Dermot

Subject: Dear Abi From: PatD To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:47:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your story & posts were prominent on the internet when I 1st got connected getting on for 2yrs ago now. I never joined in those conversations because I never knew any of the people, or indeed had ever heard anything about what had happened to certain children.(you & Susan & others) I have my own children (7&9)& I sometimes wonder what I would do if they ever get entangled with the sort of business I & your parents got into. I know it would be something stupid. I'd swing for them,fuck deprogrammers......you know what I'm saying. You've done a great thing by speaking out,never forget that. He'll crash & burn one day,that's a certainty.In the meantime I wish you & yours all the best. If I knew who'd twisted your arm I'd twist his neck. Pat Dorrity : Stratford-upon-Avon,England

Subject: I respect you greatly, Abi. From: Richard To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:19:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi, Your courage has been an inspiration to me. I respect you for mustering the strength to stand tall and tell your story fearlessly. That has made a tremendous difference to many people. And now you are once again standing tall and making your own health and the well being of your son your priority. Admirable indeed. Much love, Richard

Subject: Abi- good decision and good luck. [nt] From: Zelda To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:00:01 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Hats off to JHB, Livia and others From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:53:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, I just wanted to say how much respect I have for people who, unlike me, are able to maintain their composure in the face of all the bullshit and just keep on going. Like I said, I'm not really like that. I mean, I can but I don't. So maybe that means I really can't. Who knows? But some of you -- JHB, Livia, Richard, Jerry -- oh God, now that I'm listing names I realize it's just about everyone -- no, that's not true. Some people just have a real knack ... Aw fuck it! How do I scrap this post? Anyone? I don't want to post it now because it's silly. JESUS CHRIST THIS IS PSSING ME OFF!! :)

Subject: Nice going, Laurie! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 13:36:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laurie, Either you've really gotten to Jim and convinced him to be nice or he's gone back to A Course in Miracles. Either way, he's obviously struggling with his Inner Bastard. Hopefully, he'll still feel the safety here on the forum to express his IB appropriately because we care. We really do! Richard PS to Jim: Thanks for the compliment Bub but I agree with others that you should have listed everyone, you stupid Canook schmuck. See, I'm not always composed. :)

Subject: Re: Nice going, Laurie! From: salam To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 03:43:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what sort of phobia are we talking about?

Subject: Not a phobia, Salam From: Richard To: salam Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:34:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really a philosophical question: If a premie posts on the forum and Jim doesn't read it and reply, does the premie really exist? ;)

Subject: I think you meant everybody, Jim From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 10:31:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I think you meant everybody there. The quality of debate etc has been fantastic here lately - from everyone. And don't worry about your sometimes abrasive tone - we all know where your heart is. BTW did I get a whiff of alcohol fumes from that uncharacteristic post of yours? Being a Friday and everything? Well they always say alcohol reveals a person's true nature and I always suspected you were a teddy bear underneath that gruff exterior. Love, Liv XX

Subject: Ditto what Jim said... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 08:28:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all of you who Jim mentioned and more...: You know, I just wanted to say how much respect I have for people who, unlike me, are able to maintain their composure in the face of all the bullshit and just keep on going. Like I said, I'm not really like that. I mean, I can but I don't. So maybe that means I really can't. Who knows? Some people just have a real knack ... I read you and do learn a lot from you who are able to be consistently civil and composed. I know I'm not on the list...I wouldn't presume to be... I'm honest but you all know I'm not always 'composed'.:) I'd add Marianne, too JimB) Cynth

Subject: Re: Hats off to JHB, Livia and others From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 06:10:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Jim I know it won't get the Nobel prize for posting but am I not worth a mention for effort in the face of adversity? Love and stuff Bolly

Subject: No, Bolly, You suck From: Jim To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 13:35:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Frankly, Bolly .... No, I'm just kidding. OF COURSE you do! In fact, .... okay no more jokes. Of course you do. I guess what had really touched me, honestly, was the way Livia and JHB and Dermot (did I even mention him? oh yeah [hey, I'm just waking up]) were wading in with the premies -- and Dog :) -- with such calm dispassion. Bolly, you're great. In fact - and this is completely honest now (and no, Liv, no booze, then or now -- wait, Laurie just pointed out I've got a little Baileys in my coffee here), I'm once again so impressed by the quality of people and expression here. The cult can go fuck itself. This is all real and you guys are great. Here, big air kiss Mmmmmm....WwaHHHHHHHHH!

Subject: Absolutely From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 14:13:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just saying to Chuck how great F7 is with all these feisty, sane and articulate newbies like Bolly, Livia, AV, Thorin, Crispy et al. And I know you didn't include me on your list of those who engage the cultweasels with ''calm dispassion'' for good reason. b)

Subject: What about me? From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 18:47:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm the embodiment of cool, civilised, discretion....always.. How come my name didn't drop off your tongue without a second thought? :) -Dermot

Subject: Well, Derm ol' buddy, it's like this .... From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:13:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot, Actually, believe it or not, I was thinking of you in this respect as well. Not regarding your flawed perspective on the middle east, of course, but rather in regard to all this cult stuff. You're a complete gentleman here and we here at the House of Heller do take note.

Subject: Re: Well, Derm ol' buddy, it's like this .... From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:04:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I was being a little tongue in cheek... I think I lose it sometimes and let rip hahaha....but 'gentleman' hey? Well, thank you Sir. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: What about me? From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 18:49:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are my hero and read your email! Your Yank pal

Subject: Ccheck yours too Marianne [nt] From: Dermot To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:02:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:46:14 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: This week, the California Supreme Court held that Nike could be sued for false advertising. The suit was brought based on Nike's advertising and press releases which assured the buying public that Nike didn't violate labor laws, didn't subject its employees to sexual or physical abuse, and paid a living wage. These statements were false. The California Supreme Court ruled that a public prosecutor -- the plaintiff's attorneys -- could sue Nike and if successful, require that all money obtained by Nike as a result of unfair business practices be surrendered. The California Supreme Court said: When a business enterprise, to promote and defend its sales and profits, makes factual representations about its own products or operations, it must speak truthfully. Does this ring a bell for anyone? Marianne

Subject: Re: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Bolly Shri To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 06:07:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for that Marrianne, it warms my heart to hear that justice can still triumph. There are so many instances of outright exploitation in progress that it's hard to take a stand always. But in fact when you do and see whats going on life is better when the snake oil in all it's guises is removed from our assortment of percieved neccesities. No more So Hung much more clear thinking, cheers for posting that Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Zelda To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 04:58:57 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Your post is amongst some delicate ones- Abi and the condolences. But the Supreme Cts ruling seems BIG. Refresh my memory- is there documentation re the relationship of Ratwads business and 'promote and defend its sales and profits, makes factual representations about its own products or operations' and 'must speak truthfully' ?????? Z

Subject: Condolences to Anth and Gerry From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:55:00 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Over the last month, both Anth and Gerry have lost their mothers. Heartfelt condolences to both of you, and your families. I know Anth and Gerry outside the forum, in the real world, and have spent time with both of them. I count them as close friends, and know them to be caring, humorous, intelligent folks. The loss of a parent is never an easy event. They deserve our kind thoughts during these times. Marianne, proud friend of Sheriff Lyng and Anth the anarchist

Subject: Re: Condolences to Anth and Gerry From: Roger eDrek To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 00:36:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Indeed. Carry on, young men.

Subject: Condolences to PatD, Anth and Gerry From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 20:50:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I'm back online for the moment at any rate and can now get email again. Hope it keeps on working.

Subject: Condolences to PatD, Anth and Gerry From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:15:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Much love to Gerry, PatD, and Anth. What else to say? Cynthia

Subject: Re: Condolences to Anth and Gerry From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 20:33:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My condolences to Gerry, Anth, and PatD during this difficult time. Padre Mickey

Subject: Condolences From: Barbara To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:10:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please accept my condolences also. Take care, all of you.

Subject: Yyes, condolences Anth, Gerry,Pat D. [nt] From: Dermot To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 18:42:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Love to Anth and Gerry From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:29:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth and Gerry, Sorry to hear about both of your moms' passing. Love and good wishes to you. My 95 year old dad recently broke his hip and I'm heading to see him soon. Gotta love my folks for putting up with youthful follies. I am grateful that understanding, foregiveness and reconciliation are part my relationship with family. Richard

Subject: Love to Pat D, as well. [nt] From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:20:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And from me too From: JHB To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:08:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am very fortunate to not only live with my mother, but get on really well with her, back in her homeland in Latvia. In the last few weeks she had a health scare which turned out to be not as serious as we feared, but certainly shook us up. I hope both Anth and Gerry were as fortunate as I have been to repair the hurt that cult membership caused between family members. John.

Subject: And from me too [nt] From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 20:22:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, completely From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:58:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, I knew about but Gerry, I didn't. Sorry for both of you. Indeed. Jim (and Laurie from the back porch sending you both her warm best wishes too)

Subject: Sympathy from me A and G From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:53:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My father died in February. He seems to have been away a long time. I'm still waiting for him to walk in through the door.

Subject: It often isn't easy, but ... From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 09:43:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Grieve, and remember your dead, but keep living and laughing. It's all they really need from you'. Echo, August 31, 1995. Bests to all of you, Chris

Subject: Re: It often isn't easy, but ... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 12:51:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Chris. Now I am in middle age and my mother and her siblings are very old with various health problems. The inevitable is coming but I don't dwell on it. In 1994 I lost a 32 year old brother-in-law to colon cancer in July and my lifelong best friend (who was my age) in December. During that last half of 1994 I found myself letting the grief happen through crying and laughing. My lifelong best friend was also Tom's best friend and we miss her but when we remember her, even right after her funeral, we laugh a lot. She loved to make people laugh and her humor and love far outweighs the grief now. Losing a parent is different from other losses and my Mom is almost 80. I've already lost her in pieces because of her Alzheimers but I talk to her on the phone a lot and she makes me laugh and I always make a point of making her laugh. I was the family clown or jokster. Still am. We enjoy eachother now more than before her disease onset. She still knows what's happening to her and pokes fun at herself. She used to be a devout Catholic but she never goes to church anymore but she always prays and at this point in her life I am happy she has fogotten a lot of the days she lived in pain while I was growing up. I've also had friends who died of AIDs years ago. I feel mushy today...sad and happy.

Subject: Here's a what if for you From: Today's Question To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:27:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seeing a cult member mention below that his experience could not be described in words So what if we had never been told by Ratso and his awful mahatamas that it couldn't be described in words? e.g. mango sang ad nauseum My feeling is we needed this thought implant in order to believe in this spiritual one size fits all. The vagueness of it all was/is essential to keep 'em wishin' and hopin'

Subject: re;could not be described From: AV To: Today's Question Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 10:54:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you think about it, actually NOTHING can be descibed in words, furthermore,there is NO WAY of telling whether somebody is having the same experience you think you are having. Like Liv was saying below, you can be utterly in love with a person, gaze longingly into their eyes, and your heart bursts as you feel that they are experiencing the same, and those feelings are reciprocated; so hands up those who ever got that wrong? I have,... it's a fact of life that we love to think we can SHARE a feeling or a common experience: a drunk will always offer you a drink! It's part of human nature to want to avoid isolation, that's why we marry, live in communities, gather friends with shared interests, post on forums, go to ball games, put people in solitary as a punishment; all so we can say; 'gee, I'm feeling this, isn't it great you're feeling it too, isn't it even better that we are all feeling it together!!! Part of the BEAUTY of human experience is the art and the joy of attempting to convey those feelings, describe the indescribable, sing of the unseen, and tell of the unspoken in as many ways as there are souls walking upon the earth. Knowledge is indescribable? yes and no, I can tell you in terms with which you are familiar, e.g. light, energy, peace, something of what I have felt, but I don't think I could convey what it meant to me at the time, or how deep was that experience. That's what makes me chuckle when I hear the old; 'you've obviously never experienced knowledge to say a thing like that' thrown around, as though the statement carried some weight. It is , actually , meaningless, because a person making a comment like that is assuming that the experience of knowledge is one and the same for all people, and represents some form of benchmark; if you've 'had that experience' it must qualify you to make all manner of statements about the nature of human existence,the goal of life, who is or isn't a master; and if you... 'haven't had the experience',... your words are irrelevant. The invokes an attitude that because one has had a certain experience, one MUST be right. Yet one can only guarantee that experience for one's ownself, in which case all one can EVER do is express an opinion. ps.I used to love hearing people talk about their experiences, when it was real and from the heart; where can you go to get that nowadays? Dunno.

Subject: Re: re;could not be described From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:23:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, but we didn't get that even in the premie world, did we? Not since Maharaji stopped premies giving satsang at meetings in 1983 or whenever it was... I've heard Quaker meetings can be good for people talking about their experiences...and I believe one of the exes who posts here is a Quaker although I've forgotten who. Also people who are involved in creative pursuits often spend time having inspiring conversations, especially artists. Do you paint or draw? Could you join an art class? I went to some classes for a while and met some great people with lots of insight but refreshingly lacking in spiritual pretensions. Just an idea. Lots of love, Livia

Subject: Re: re;could not be described From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:49:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thats funny Liv, I was listening to a prog on the radio about QUAKERS,sounded like a fairly cool bunch of people. apparently they get in a room, and sit in silence until someone is moved to speak. I studied art in my youth, these days my brain is pretty full with daily duties, but I do some pretty amazing doodles on long phone calls! Also write when the moment is right... LOLOL

Subject: Re: re;could not be described From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:16:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, writing is also good, and then you can also join writers' groups where everyone reads the same book and then you get back together to discuss the book. I've heard these can be very good, although I've never been myself. Plus of course the possibility of us all getting together for a British Latvian do or whatever, but we do all seem to live in different parts of the country. How about the phone? I think you already have my email but if you've lost it, it's liviadowte@hotmail.com. If you leave your number I'll phone you and then you could do some masterpiece doodles while we talk! I know bolly shri would love to talk to you too. We could have a 3-way conversation because bolly comes to my house quite a lot. Could be fun! Love, Liv

Subject: Re: re;could not be described From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:01:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Soz not been in touch yet....time will come, LOL to BOL!!! ((((( xx)))))

Subject: Hey, easy there, you guys! From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 15:24:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you leave your number I'll phone you and then you could do some masterpiece doodles while we talk! Is it really that simple? Is it safe? Safe for whom? Careful now! Time: When Doodling Becomes Deadly www.time.com/time/columnist/reaves/article/0,9565,234978,00.html

Subject: Re: Hey, easy there, you guys! From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:35:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez Jim, is nothing sacred! Guess I'll have to stick to drawing conclusions! LOL

Subject: Re: Hey, easy there, you guys! From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:45:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Honestly, Laurie and I both laughed out loud at that one! (Do I still put 'LOL' here? Not sure. Better do it anyway) -- LOL!

Subject: :0) From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:54:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: doodles From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:11:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe it - my Simpsons screensaver just came on and the word at the top were: 'from doodles to fine art' - weird or what?!? Look, Jim, all that up there was perfectly innocent... Doodle schmoodle - what's a bit of friendliness amongst exes. (Where do you find those websites....) Love, Liv

Subject: Food for thought From: Mili To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 07:18:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the June, 2002 issue of Discover Magazine, a popular science magazine, there is an article about John Wheeler. Wheeler, who is now 90 years old, was a contemporary of Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein, and was one of the mentors of Richard Feynman at Princeton. He had a heart attack in 2001, and this made him realize that he only has time left for one big question: How come existence? He is basing his speculations on such famous experiments as the double slit wave/particle duality experiment and the delayed choice experiment, in which the observer's choices retroactively affect the behavior of quantum phenomena. He now asks the question: 'Does the Universe exist if we don't observe it?' His tentative answer is that large parts of the universe may be in a state of uncertainty or potentiality and only become real when they are observed. Wheeler suggests that conscious observation is not necessarily required; that when potential phenomena interact with matter of any kind that the interaction causes the collapse of the possibility wave into an actual event. Andre Linde, a Russian physicist now at Stanford, goes even further; he says that inanimate matter is not enough; a quantum event is not real until it is observed. In this way, Wheeler and Linde have even suggested that the entire history of the universe is created by our observation of it in the present, in an enormous feedback loop; in other words, the universe creates us and we create the universe. These ideas are remarkably similar to the ideas of Amit Goswami, professor of theoretical physics at the University of Oregon. Goswami has been saying for years, much more emphatically than Wheeler or Linde, that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of being, the underlying cause of everything. Goswami declines to define consciousness, but he gives some idea of what he means by describing three different states of consciousness: ordinary waking life, dreaming, and dreamless sleep. Dreamless sleep is the most interesting to me, because it is what we usually refer to as UNconscious. But for Goswami, dreamless sleep is consciousness without a subject and without an object. He says that mystics describe a fourth state, 'Turiya,' which is similar to dreamless sleep but is much more dynamic and 'creative.' Goswami makes a distinction between consciousness and awareness; consciousness splits itself into subject and object in order to experience itself; this seems to be what Goswami means by awareness. Like Wheeler and Linde, only more certainly, Goswami asserts that even the simplest life form, like the first bacteria, retroactively created the universe by distinguishing itself from the rest of the universe -- by observing the universe.

Subject: Re: Food for thought From: Bolly Shri To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 06:36:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Mili thats deep for a Saturday morning and I do have to get to the supermarket. It's the same script we tossed around when I was young and (in the dark) beautiful, full of speculative and profound views and theories about the meaning of life. Now I live it and leave that adolescent boy boy speculation to the boy boys. They drift out on tangients and come up with nuclear weapons and other things I'd rather not have on my planet. Stick to what's in front of you. So there might be an afterlife, so maybe everything dissapears when you're not looking, so what? Live your life play with your own perceptions enjoy your thoughts

Subject: Re: Food for thought From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 18:52:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and if you enjoyed this thread half as much as I did, then I enjoyed it twice as much as you did.... now where's that teabag?????

Subject: Useless calories From: PatC To: Mili Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 15:12:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goswami is basically a Hindu playing at being a scientist - using pseudo-science to rationalize his Hinduism. Peter Lloyd says about Goswami: 1. THE HARD PROBLEM 1.1 Goswami's 'consciousness' versus mental consiousness My main objection to Goswami's philosophy is that he has defined consciousness in such a way that it no longer has its normal meaning of mental consciousness, but instead is supposed to refer to something non-mental. We might call this 'Goswamian consciousness' or 'quantum consciousness', as opposed to 'mental consciousness'. He says, for instance: ...consciousness transcends both matter and mind ... [Hard Questions, Sect. II] Conventionally, Western philosophers attribute properties of consciousness - experience and choice - to the mind. This has been corrected in quantum functionalism in which consciousness is defined to transcend both matter and mind. [Hard Questions, Sect. VI] In so far as Goswami's philosophy is a monism at all, it is therefore a neutral monism, not a mental monism (or 'monistic idealism' as he calls it). As I have argued elsewhere, any neutral monism is actually identical to a version of physical monism, just because the physical world is already as neutral as a world can be. For, the constituents of the physical world are defined exclusively and exhaustively by their logical and mathematical properties in relation to one another. As far as physics is concerned, the basic particles and fields that make up the physical universe have no intrinsic qualities but only extrinsic, relational properties such as mass and electrical charge. All such entities are defined by physics, however. You will not, for instance, spot any electrons by looking out of the window of the Clapham omnibus: we are acquainted with the basic constituents of the physical world only through the propositions and formulae of physics. So, those extrinsic properties are the only properties possessed by those entities. Hence, physicalism itself is 'neutral' in the relevant sense. Therefore, to say that a metaphysical theory such as Goswami's is a 'neutral' monism is just to say that it is a 'physical' monism. The non-mentality of Goswamian 'quantum consciousness' is again brought out in the following passage: Ordinary perception consists of the collapse of a possibility wave by consciousness (via recognition and choice) in the presence of awareness. But in unconscious (subliminal) perception, in which consciousness but not awareness is present, there should be no collapse of the wave. [Hard Questions, Sect. IV] It seems here that Goswami is using 'awareness' to mean 'mental consciousness' as opposed to 'quantum consciousness'. 1.2 Goswami's 'monism' is really a dualism Goswami claims that his philosophy is a monistic idealism. For instance: ... the new hypothesis is postulating a new psychophysical parallelism, but firmly within a monistic idealist ontology. [Hard Questions, Sect. VI] In fact, Goswami's philosophy is really not even a monism. He claims that that consciousness creates mind and matter, or subject and object. That, however, still allows that mind and matter are irreducibly different, and it still leaves unsolved Chalmer's Hard Problem of accounting for mental consciousness. He writes: ... the subject consciousness of the experience ... arises co-dependently and tangled-hierarchically with the chosen brain state ... both of which exist only as possibility until the collapse, and no dualism is involved. [Hard Questions, Sect. III] Both subtle and physical worlds remain in possibility until consciousness self-referentially collapses the possibility structure into actuality. [Hard Questions, Sect. VI] There is no reason given for thinking that the mind and the brain are not ontologically irreducibly different. Goswami repeatedly refers to mind and matter as two distinct things, and one can only assume that they have their normal connotations, in which case they are indeed fundamentally different for reasons given by philosophers throughout modern history from Descartes to Chalmers. In order for Goswami to claim that he they are 'one', he needs to address the well-rehearsed arguments that they are different. He does not do so. Instead, all he offers is the theory that they arise out of potentiality together: even if this were true, it would not be an argument for saying that they are one after they have arisen out of that potentiality. Depending on how it is interpreted, Goswami's philosophy might even be not dualistic but triadic, for he says: [Scientists] tend to think that any positing of consciousness collapsing a the possibility wave must refer to a dualistic consciousness - a consciousness separate from matter. [Hard Questions] What those scientists 'tend to think' is quite correct. Whether consciousness here refers to Goswami's quantum consciousness or the more usual mental consciousness of Chalmers, it must be non-physical - just because the existing equations that describe the behaviour of physical systems between successive measurements make no reference to consciousness. (Admittedly, 'non-physical' here means only that the consciousness to which we are referring is not part of the physical world as presently conceived. One could, however, envision some future extension of physics that incorporates a novel physical entity that objectively collapses wave functions. This is in contrast with mental consciousness, which is irreducibly non-physical because it involves qualia. But if we were to posit such an entity, a 'quantum consciousness' in Goswami's terms, it would nonetheless be separate from matter.) That Goswami has made no progress on the Hard Problem is clear from these passage: At this point consciousness collapses that component of the uncollapsed coherent wave superposition, all the neurons involved in that meaningful state simultaneously fire, and a perception arises (along with a subject). [Hard Questions, Sect. II] When consciousness collapses the possibility waves of this tangled-hierarchical system of the brain and mind, self-reference, the quantum experience, arises. [Hard Questions, Sect. II] This totally glosses over the very point that Chalmers' Hard Problem addresses: How could the collapse of the superposition conceivably give rise to a qualial perception? Why should that physical event have any quale associated with it? Given that the physics of the event does not entail the quale, we are left with an unexplained quale. Despite the title of his article, Goswami is just not addressing the Hard Problem: he is not tackling the deep question of why the neural correlate of consciousness (which he claims is a collapse of a wave function) should be associated with any quale whatsoever. That Goswami is not taking us anywhere is further indicated by his admission that his theory is a version of functionalism, a theory that is known to fail as an attempted solution to the Hard Problem: ... an idealist model of consciousness, quantum measurement, and self-reference called quantum functionalism. [Hard Questions, Sect. II] 1.3 Subjectivity considered as a hard problem As I understand Chalmers, the Hard Problem is that of accounting for qualia: to explain how qualitative properties (such as colours) that appear in conscious experiences could, even in principle, ever be produced by a piece of matter. Goswami disregards this and instead regards the notion of subjectivity as being the hard explanandum. In fact, he says there are a total of four 'hard problems', but the first one, which is supposed to be Chalmer's 'Hard Problem' is defined as: How does the one world of matter separate into two, subject and object? [Hard Questions, Sect. I] When he does eventually mention qualia, it is only the subjectivity that bothers him: How can a subjective quale be explained from a science which is avowedly purely objective? [Hard Questions, Sect. I.1] One reason why the problem of subjectivity is weaker than the problem of qualia is that it is not at all clear what subjectivity is, and indeed whether there is such a thing as a subject at all. In contrast, it is transparently obvious what qualia are because they present themselves vividly to our awareness throughout our waking lives, and we can mentally point to them. The subject of mental experience, however, is notoriously elusive. The subject cannot be known in the normal sense of the verb 'to know'. Hence there is an initial hard problem of articulating anything at all about the subject, which places us at one remove from even being able to state the problem of accounting for subjectivity in a physical world. In contrast, as I have said, the problem of qualia can be stated much more cogently and forefully - as it is, for example, in Jackson's argument about Mary's escape from the black-and-white room. 2. SELF-REFERENCE 2.1 The ontology of self-reference: a category error A key element in Goswami's philosophy is his claim to derive consciousness (that is, of the Goswamian not the mental variety) from self-referentiality. He says: The measurement [of a quantum-mechanical system] is tangled-hierarchical and produces self-reference. An example of a tangled hierarchy is the self-referential sentence, I am a liar. ... This tangled hierarchy causes the self-reference of the sentence. [Hard Questions, Sect. II] This involves a category error, to use Gilbert Ryle's term. Self-reference in this sense is a property of propositions. It is not a property of any physical things, or indeed of any mental things. So, it cannot be correct to say that a measurement 'produces self-reference'. Hence the metaphysical conclusions that Goswami builds on this also fail: Out of the self-referential measurement itself simultaneously arises a subject - which I call the quantum self - that measures, that chooses, that observes, and object(s) that are observed. Notice how, in this description, dualism is avoided because ultimately there is oneness (the division is only an appearance), allowing subjects and objects to be treated on the same footing. [Hard Questions, Sect. II) In this passage, Goswami has now added another layer of error. The first layer of error is, as I have said, to ascribe self-referentiality to the measurement. The second is to infer that the division into subject and object is illusory. Note, it is only the inference of identity, and not the assertion of it, that I am claiming is faulty here. Well, perhaps subject and object are indeed one: but we cannot be sure because Goswami has neglected to tell us what exactly the 'subject' is. Nonetheless the assertion that they are one just does not follow from the measurement's being self-referential - even if per impossible the measurement could be self-referential (which, as we have seen, it cannot be because it would be category error). 2.2 Self-reference in mysticism: not true For some reason that I have not fathomed, Goswami wants to elevate self-reference to the level of a mystical truth. Thus he says: ... transcendence, unity, and self-reference ... are also the characteristics of consciousness that mystics from every age have declared based on their direct realization ... [Hard Questions, Sect. II] Undoubtedly, the first two characteristics ('transcendence' and 'unity') are indeed commonly declared by mystics down the ages. The third characteristic ('self-reference') I have never seen mentioned by any mystic of any age, nor have I seen any like self-reference declared, nor do I think it is even remotely in keeping with the sorts of things that mystics say. I am therefore very surprised that Goswami claims self-reference to be a common mystical insight, and I would be very interested to see what references he could give to support this. 2.3 Self-reference in the mind-body problem: not true Goswami also wants to elevate self-reference to a pivotal place within the mind-body problem. He writes: This self-reference is also the most important brain-mind paradox - how is it that we can refer to ourselves? [Hard Questions, Sect. II] There are two points I would make about this. First, there is nothing difficult, mysterious, or problematic about referring to oneself, as it is a merely prosaic, mechanical, and easy thing to do. Second, it is perfectly possible to be mentally conscious without referring to oneself, therefore self-reference cannot possibly be the most important brain-mind paradox (even if it were a paradox at all, which it is not). Unfortunately, Goswami has neglected to say what he thinks is the problem or paradox in referring to oneself. It is actually very straightforward. One way of doing it is to get a sticky label, write your name on it, and stick it on your forehead. You can now unamiguously refer to yourself. If you want to make it clear that you are referring to your mind, not your body, then just think of your mind for a few moments, and say to yourself, 'I hereby designate this mind, Peter Lloyd' (or whatever your personal name is. Thereafter you can refer to yourself by mentioning that name. I do not see where Goswami finds any difficulty here. I can only suppose that he is conflating formal systems (where self-reference is indeed problematic) with things in the real world (where self-reference is unproblematic). 2.4 Self-reference implicated in qualia: not true Continuing to see self-reference in everything, Goswami ascribes to self-reference a central role in qualia. With regard to qualia, he says: This is the paradox of self-reference back again. ... The theory of quantum functionalism above, having addressed the paradox of self-reference, thus also successfully eradicates the paradox of the qualia of experiences. [Hard Questions, Sect. III] This is a non sequitur. Goswami has simply pulled this conclusion out of thin air, without any argument at all. 3. QUANTUM MECHANICS 3.1 Unity of mind: not attributable to quantum mechanics Goswami suggests that telepathy it might have something to do with the non-locality observed in quantum measurements of correlated particles (as in Aspect's experiments). He refers to a particular experiment by Grinberg-Zilberbaum, in which two telepaths are deemed to have 'synchronised' their minds by meditating together, and then engage in telepathy from isolated locations. In the following passage, however, Goswami himself points out one reason why this theory runs into difficulty. Referring to the quantum measurement of correlated particles and to consciousness in the brain, he says: ... the difference is that in the former case, as soon as the wave function is collapsed by measurement, the objects become correlated; but in the case of the correlated brains, consciousness maintains the correlation ... [Hard Questions, Sect. V] A more damaging criticism is just to point out that telepathy has often been established to occur without any such prior 'correlation' or 'synchronisation', therefore any theory that takes that as its basis cannot explain the overwhelming majority of the telepathy data. 3.2 Psi phenomena: not attributable to quantum mechanics Goswami is very confident that he has solved all the deep problems posed by psi phenomena: These problems have now been solved within the new paradigm of science within consciousness. [Understanding the Paranormal] He jumps to the conclusion that psi phenomena can be accounted for by quantum mechanics without giving any argument for it. He simply announces: Evidence for quantum non-locality of our experience abounds in the literature of paranormal phenomena. ... The straightforward explanation is quantum non-locality ... [Hard Questions, Sect. V] This is simply not true. The empirical data that exist (for instance that produced by the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research laboratory, which Goswami cites) indicate only anomalous channels of control and information. It is not directly indicative of non-locality as such, and certainly not of specifically quantum non-locality. Non-locality in general, and quantum non-locality in particular, are characteristics of possible models that could perhaps be formulated. As far as I am aware, however, nobody has yet even formulated a model of psi phenomena to a level of detail that enables the prediction of experimental psi results. Therefore the involvement of any kind of non-locality, let alone quantum non-locality, is far from being established. All that has been established so far is the mere existence of the psi phenomena. It is curious to note how Goswami tries to slide the quantum-mechanical interpretation into his report of the one experiment in telepathy that he mentions: A recent experiment by the Mexican neurophysiologist Jacobo Grinberg-Zylbernaum and his collaborators (1994) is even more telling. In their work, the researchers used subjects 'correlated' (after the fashion of quantum nonlocal correlation posited by Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (1935) and verified by Alain Aspect (Aspect et al, 1982)) by meditating together for twenty-minute [sic]. [Better Ontology, penultimate section] This is seriously misleading, as it suggests to the reader that Grinberg-Zylbernaum's procedure was derived in some meaningful way from the method of correlating sub-atomic particles. This is not so. Having the two subjects sit down in the same room and do a bit of meditating is emphatically nothing like the correlating of sub-atomic particles. Goswami is taking poetic licence too far here. 4. ATTITUDE I hesitate to say this, because it might sound like an ad hominem remark, but I notice a disappointingly simplistic attitude in some of Gosawmi's writing, bordering on arrogance in respect of both science and religion. For example, he writes: it [idealist science] integrates all the forces of psychology, and physics and biology. [Better Ontology, Abstract] which is an astonishingly sweeping statement, given the rather meagre evidence that Goswami gives to back it up. It also leaves one wondering whether the idealist science is also supposed to 'integrate the forces of' the other disciplines not mentioned, such as chemistry and economics. In respect of religion and spirituality, he writes: Have you ever wondered where the moral fortitude of Gandhi and Mother Teresa comes from? Or the love of Saint Theresa of Avila or Anandamayi Ma of India? Or the wisdom of Lao Tsu or Thomas Jefferson? ... The origin of their behaviour is the real freedom of the quantum self toward which their identities had shifted. To say that great human achievements can all be explained by the collapse of wave functions, it seems to me, is reductionism at its silliest.

Subject: here's what John Dobson says about it From: Mili To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:37:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The universe is made of hydrogen. The hydrogen is made of electricity. And the electricity takes the form of protons and electrons which hold their distance from each other. Why? We say that the proton is a positive charge and the electron is a negative charge, and we know that the attraction between positive and negative charges is surpassingly great. We may get an idea of the magnitude of that attraction if we consider two grains of sand each one millimeter in diameter and placed about seventy five feet apart. If one of these grains of sand were made entirely of positive charges and the other, entirely of negative charges, then the electrical pull between them would be equivalent to the pull required to pick up one hundred and eight, fifty-thousand-ton battleships strung together as a rosary. Since at half that distance the pull would be four times as great and at a thousandth of that distance it would be a million times as great, we cannot handily overlook the pull, even between a single proton and its electron, at the distance of their proximity in an atom. Yet the electron will not sit down. Why? It is simply because of this breath of uncertainty which necessarily plagues our perception of a universe of mass and energy time. The reason for the uncertainty may be simply illustrated. If three golf balls are placed on the floor near the center of a darkened room, and if several persons, each with a bag of ping pong balls, are seated around the edge of the room, then the people around the edge of the room can discover the positions of the golf balls by rolling their ping pong balls against them in the dark. The ping pong balls, being much lighter than the golf balls, will bounce off the latter without seriously moving them. It would be impossible, however, to discover the positions of ping pong balls by rolling golf balls against them since the impact of the golf balls would destroy the information being sought. The problem of determining the position and momentum of the electron in the hydrogen atom is quite similar. With what shall we bombard it so as to disturb it as little as possible and yet get back the information? Bombarding it with a proton is like rolling a golf ball at a ping pong ball. It's like trying to find out about butterflies with a hatchet. It's too destructive to the butterflies. Even another electron is too massive for our ammunition. And if we turn to radiation the problem is no nearer solution, since the radiation itself comes in discrete packages (photons), and the energy of an ultraviolet photon is enough to knock the electron away from the proton entirely. If we go to photons of lower energy we find that they are associated with longer wavelengths, and, when the wavelengths become long with respect to the distance across an atom, they can no longer carry information about the position of the electron within the atom. It would be like measuring the length of a beetle with an odometer. Heisenberg's famous uncertainty principle is the result of a careful investigation of the limitation thus imposed on the physical measurement of a physical system. Any apparatus which we may set up to allow us to measure accurately the position of a particle makes it impossible for us, simultaneously, to measure accurately its momentum. Likewise, any apparatus which we may set up to allow us to measure accurately the momentum of a particle makes it impossible for us, simultaneously, to measure its position. There is a necessary uncertainty in our measurements such that the product of our uncertainty in the position of a particle and our uncertainty in its momentum can never be less than a certain small amount designated as Planck's Constant, h, over two pi. Now if the electron were to sit on the proton, then the uncertainty in its position would be so small that the necessary uncertainty in its momentum would drive it off. Why? Because we cannot have a large uncertainty about a very small quantity. One could not mistake the weight of a mouse by a pound or a ton. If an electron is sitting on a proton, the uncertainty in its momentum must be so large that the momentum associated with that uncertainty is enough to drive it off. The existence of the hydrogen atom itself, then, depends on this uncertainty. And the uncertainty arises from the necessary interaction between the perceiver and the perceived, or, rather, between the instrument of perception and the object perceived. We know now, from our physics, that the perceiver is always mixed up in what he sees. Every portrait of the universe is signed. Every description of the physical universe is made from the standpoint of some perceiver associated with some instrument of perception. Now the very curious thing about this situation is that the behavior of matter is itself determined by what we can and cannot know. It is a little like the stock market. The behavior of the stock market depends on the ignorance of those who play it. The universe is made of hydrogen, yet the hydrogen atom itself, like any apparition, exists only because of this breath of uncertainty. It can easily be shown that nuclear energy is related to this uncertainty, and that only if our uncertainty in the position of an event in space and time were total could the momentum and the energy associated with that event go to zero. As George Gamow pointed out long ago, it is the increased uncertainty in the position of the charge in a deuteron (one electron on two protons) which allows the uncertainty in the momentum (and, therefore, the momentum associated with that uncertainty) to fall. An electron confined to a single proton will jump away, whereas an electron confined to two will not. The larger the nucleus the larger the uncertainty in position and, therefore, the lower the associated momentum. It is only the disruptive effect of the increased electrical charge that raises the electrical energy (not the nuclear energy) of larger nuclei, rendering them less and less stable beyond iron, and radioactive beyond uranium. If, and only if, our uncertainty in the position of a charge were total could its momentum fall to zero. And only if our uncertainty in the time of an event were total could its energy (the time component of the momentum) fall to zero. If you can know where something is in space and time, you've bought the whole can of worms. To know where something is to know where it is with respect to other things. And to know where something it is to know that it is small enough so that its position could be accurately determined. The only reason that the distances from city to city can be designated on a road map to within a mile is because the measurements are made from city hall to city hall, and the city halls are small with respect to a mile. To know where a proton is is to know its position with respect to all the other matter in the observable universe, and then the undividedness will show through as its gravitational energy. Also, to know where the proton is is to know that it is small, and then the infinitude will show through as its electrical energy. It has already been pointed out that its gravitational and electrical energies are the same thing. They are two sides of one coin. But if they are the two sides, the nuclear energy is the edge of that same coin. They are all the same thing. Energy is apparitional. Only its changes are transformational. To see anything in space and time is to see the universe which we see. http://www.geocities.com/milivoi/Vedanta/ Advaita Vedanta and Modern Science www.geocities.com/milivoi/Vedanta/

Subject: Isn't John Dobson a premie? From: PatC To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 13:12:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, Mili, I've enjoyed reading this stuff that you have posted but it's a bit theoretical for my tastes. It's a bit like when G was posting all his stuff showing that evolution could not be THE explanation and trying to use science to prove the existence of god. I can understand that theists (or religious people of all sorts) would like science to confirm their cosmologies, create certainties and meaning whereas I don't mind living with uncertainty and meaninglessness. I'd rather not draw conclusions just yet. Anyway I appreciate your recent posts. They sure beat some of your LG henchmen's really silly efforts.

Subject: Re: Isn't John Dobson a premie? From: Mili To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 07:40:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad you liked it. I am not even trying to prove anything here. Just sharing something that I enjoyed myself.

Subject: Only useful for picking up chicks From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 19:35:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This gobbledygook does have its purpose, I guess. And I did notice that in Mili's link the guy used the word 'primordial' so I have to concede he just might be right up there with Bal Bhagwan Ji in terms of giving us a scientific explanation of the universe. But the main thing is that girls just love this shit. No, seriously, I've seen it so many times. You just get a few drinks in a girl, tell her how beautiful she is and show her what a good dancer you are. Once you've got her in the car and on the way home, play something surprising, maybe some Nat King Cole or like that. Once you're back at Stud Central, you walk her in real nice and smooth like and then, just before you give her her drink, you tell her about the atoms. If you've got the whole thing memorized, recite it really slowly. Like a long, long song, kind of. Then see if she doesn't lean in and kiss you. No, that's not shutting you up, stupid. That's approval!

Subject: ONLY? :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 16:52:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOL, Deepak Heller ! ! ! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:39:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I was single, I'd use that one for sure. The Deepak Heller Tantric Quantum Physics ploy. Hi-freakin-larious!

Subject: Re: Only useful for picking up chicks From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 07:42:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I usually rely on my really slick moves on the dance floor and the style that comes naturally from just being yourself, but thanks for all the tips anyway. :)

Subject: I'll go with that. Thanks.nt From: Bryn To: Mili Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:35:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Food for thought From: Mirror To: Mili Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 08:24:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the interesting essay. However these ideas and observations are not new at all. They go as far back as human history and have been posed by scientists and philosophers through all ages. 'Does the tree in the forest actually fall if there is no one to witness it, or does it only become a fallen tree the moment someone witnesses it as such?' It might be a better idea not to waste too much time pondering these theories. They are fun to play with, perhaps even bring you a sense of euphoria the moment the mind is stunned (because it can't figure it out), however, neither these questions nor their answers serve any practical purpose in life whatsoever. Imho it is much more 'enlightening' to strive to be a better person, a wiser person, a fearless person, an honest person, a compassionate person as well as a ruthlessly just person. There is no need to encumber the mind with moebius loops such as whether or not 'I' is indeed the witnessing subject of the objective 'I', merely arising in consciousness as a result of interacting particles. Still these questions will keep the human mind busy for as long as there is a universe, and apparently it is your turn today. Good Luck! Mirror

Subject: Re: Food for thought From: Mili To: Mirror Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 08:52:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Does the tree in the forest actually fall if there is no one to witness it, or does it only become a fallen tree the moment someone witnesses it as such?' 'It's a fallen tree as soon as it falls because God witnesses it even when no one else does.' - Mili (paraphrasing Bishop Berkeley)

Subject: As I've heard it...It a tree... From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 20:05:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there does it make a sound? That's how I've always heard that one. Brain doodling is fun sometimes.

Subject: Re: does it make a sound? From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:42:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cyn, ''If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there does it make a sound? '' sure...it's the sound of one tree clapping.... weirdly yours AV :-) ps, for doodling, pencils make less mess.....eeuuch

Subject: You're very funny, AV:) From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:46:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One tree clapping....LOL!

Subject: Re: LOL! From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:43:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: haveyou seen those little buddhist figures of B 'contemplating his navel'?? well look again... he was actually meditating using a beragon, fell asleep, someone stole the beragon, he's stll asleep and hasn't noticed! sheeesh, is it only me that sees this shit??!! :) :) m m m m m m m m m m m e d i t a t i o n.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: Leaders mag put Rawat in limbo From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 19:08:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat's article has been removed from the front page of Leaders website and relegated to Page 164. Also the rest of the mag is now online. Leaders rag www.leadersmag.com/Editorial/Issues/April_2002/April_2002.html

Subject: Hes not on the page now !!! From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:00:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless its just me going blind, I cant find any message or link or page pic of Leaders in Self Knowledge' on that page Pat....could it be that they have seen sense and removed him from their website ??? And IF so, could we get a statement from them as to WHY ??

Subject: Contents, p11, bottom right corner From: JHB To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 06:41:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But no further detail.

Subject: I see him now... thanks From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:06:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a special report eh... can we find out if money changes hands for these special reports ? Anyone fancy posing as CEO of EPO Co International ?

Subject: But it was a Visions 'project' - right? From: Errr... To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:18:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you said Leaders mag was a pure fabrication of EV? You laughed and scoffed. Remember? Now want credo for your latest observation?? Oh yea. Well, yea, that's an oops alright!! But you guys are addicted to oopses so, carry right on.... and we'll look forward to the next excult revisionist backflip

Subject: Re: But it was a Visions 'project' - wrong! From: Richard To: Errr... Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:41:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Errrr..., Can you say authoritatively that the content of the 'interview' was NOT cream filling provided by M et al to fill the puff pastry that Leaders is? Do you honestly believe that M/Prem would leave himself vulnerable to real questioning when he wont even field the simplest questions from his own students? Many of us said from the big-ning that Leaders was a legit publication but are still skeptical as to the origin of the content. Others speculated that Leaders was an EV invention, were wrong and were told so on this forum. So what's your point? The appearance of the former SatGuru in this magazine welcomes all other press to explore M&K and they will surely be more diligent in their research prior to press time.

Subject: Hi, I just thought I have a look From: Pressman To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 08:54:47 (EDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: at what this Prem Rawat Foundation was all about so I did a search on Google.com for the ''Prem Rawat Foundation'' and the ex-premie.org site came up on the first page of results. However, this forum was not that easy to find. Might I suggest that a more prominent link to this forum be put on the homepage of ex-premie.org. I'm only a humble press man but I think this might help. Does the Maharishi still have a beard, by the way?

Subject: Re: Hi, I just thought I have a look From: cq To: Pressman Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 11:44:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Good suggestion re the prominence (or lack of it) on EPO of the link to this Forum. I'll mention it to JHB, the webmaster, next time I email him. Incidentally, the Maharishi might still have a beard (if he's still alive?) but you've got the WRONG guy. The bearded one was the Beatles' guru. Maharaji (and that's -raji, not -rishi)is a different conman altogether (though no doubt from a similar school). You thinking of putting an article together about gurus? Chris.

Subject: Sorry cq but From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 19:56:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you didn't notice my email address in Pressman's post. Pressman is me.

Subject: Is that so? From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 10:23:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do I look annoyed? Hm? www.madeyoulaugh.com/funny_photos/baby/baby.jpg

Subject: the big-ning! LOL. I remember it! From: Bryn To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 04:43:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no text sadly.

Subject: Chasm...... From: Bodhi To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 00:05:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With a soft CH as in church. That used to irritate the fuck outta me. No wonder I could never Realise Self-Knowledge. Love to All

Subject: what about nucilear and hairs ? From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:27:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no text here either

Subject: hairs From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:19:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually I thought 'hairs' was rather sweet. Sorry! Liv

Subject: Sheeps From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 15:03:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man wakes in morning and tooth brushes. Dinah Shores for dinosaurs as in: Jets make so much noise because it's the dinahshores screaming. Missing the point that petroleum does not come from decayed animals.

Subject: Surely nuculear? nt From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:48:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nowt

Subject: Does anyone remember? From: Sir Dave :p To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 08:43:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember when Maha twice said ''the sound of speed'' in his divine satsang when he should have said, ''the speed of sound''. This got me wondering, how could God make such an obvious mistake? I added this to all the other strange and ridiculous things he'd said, like about the animals suffering Hell etc.

Subject: within inside From: Livia To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:25:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Being something of a grammatical pedant (according to my partner), I always found his use of 'within inside' irritating, especially as he used it over decades. I even saw Sir Dave use it today, or was he being post-premieishly ironic? Didn't anyone ever tell him (Maharaji) he only needed to say 'within' or 'inside'? Or am I being tediously pedantic (again) ? But it was always annoying. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: within inside From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 01:00:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That one always irritated me too. Within inside (shudder). You're not being tediously pedantic either. I always wondered why people didn't correct his mistakes just so he would learn the language better. I also think it was part of a cult-speak as in other imitations premies would do: "it's like'' ''that experience within inside'' cult talking.

Subject: Re: within inside From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 10:37:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The most embarrassing thing was when you'd be with someone when they were giving satsang to a non-premie. They's say something like: 'There's this wonderful experience within inside you', and the person would look sort of baffled. Like, doesn't this person know how to speak properly? I'm glad to say my grammatical pedanticism somehow survived intact through all those years. Yours did too, by the sound of it, Cynthia. Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: What's wrong with you, Cynth?!??? From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 01:19:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, doesn't anyone listen to anything around here anymore? Sheesh! Like I said, Rawat told us, at least once, that it meant something special. You know, you got your 'withins' and you got your 'insides'. Right? Are you with me so far? Good! Now what's it take for your characters to realize that this was something different? This was like within inside. Shit, doesn't anyone understand anything spiritual anymore? Why, you guys sound like a bunch of ... what was that... pendants? Yeah, pendants!

Subject: LOL!! [nt] From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 10:38:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It was worse than that From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:34:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Being something of a grammatical pedant (according to my partner), I always found his use of 'within inside' irritating, especially as he used it over decades. I even saw Sir Dave use it today, or was he being post-premieishly ironic? Didn't anyone ever tell him (Maharaji) he only needed to say 'within' or 'inside'? Or am I being tediously pedantic (again) ? But it was always annoying. Love, Liv --- Livia, When asked, Rawat defended his quirky idiom saying that 'within inside' had a specific meaning that neither 'within' nor 'inside' fully captured. Honestly, he did. Sometime in the late 70s I think. But don't get me wrong, I don't think for a moment that's true. I mean, it's not as he actually had a coherent explanation or anything. Clearly, he was just trying to cover for an embarrassing mistake. 'My hat's on funny? Well, I knew that. I WANTED to wear it this way. Honest.' Yeah, right!

Subject: Re: It was worse than that From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:18:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe you; however, I can't think for the life of me why just plain 'within' or 'inside' wouldn't describe it exactly the same. A double affirmative doesn't make something any more affirmative after all.

Subject: Re: It was worse than that From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:33:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe you; however, I can't think for the life of me why just plain 'within' or 'inside' wouldn't describe it exactly the same. It's spiritual. And you're not. Na na na NA na! :) A double affirmative doesn't make something any more affirmative after all. Yes, true. :) By the way, talking about funny spiritual word games, a friend of mine unfortunately got sucked into an investment with these fundamentalist American paranoid anti-government types. Here's a link to a web site of theirs where they explain that, if one talks proerply (some opaque gibberish they've come up with) you'll find that the U.S. government has no jurisdiction over any of its citizens. Do you think this guy is really a judge? Ha ha ha! dwmlc.com/

Subject: Anyone remember the 'bullet gun'? (nt) From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:35:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone remember the 'bullet gun'? (nt)

Subject: Yes - as opposed to a spud gun perhaps? [nt] From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 08:31:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes From: Jethro To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 10:55:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always took it as a sign that he was soooooo blisssed out. He aslo often used to say shellfish instead of selfish. I just loved it. Oy vey.....I fell for a personality cult. My dad always said that I was easily led.

Subject: What holds a roof? From: Bryn To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:24:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember him doing this one, and saying roof as to rhyme with 'puff' as in derogatory slang for gay (respect respect). It went sort of: [High shriek] 'What holds a ruf? Pillar holds a ruf. But what holds the ruf?' I remember being thrown at this point. I'm sure he meant to say 'but what holds the pillar'. And also ther was (is?) that habit of throwing out a question, then repeating it verbatim with one word emphasised differently. EG: 'So what do you KNOW? (pause, bulge eyes)...What DO you know?. or ' Is it really LIKE that? (turn head) IS it really like that?' Oh what a stunt!!!! He had it sooo easy bless him. Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Leaders mag put Rawat in limbo From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:17:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Where was the article ever on the front page of their website? I just recall seeing the last issue until just now when, as you've pointed out, they've finally got this new one online. But the really funny thing is that they've got Rawat in this section 'Leaders in Self-Knowledge'. Who else might they profile in that department in coming issues? Sai Baba? Tony Robbins? Deputy Dog?

Subject: Re: Leaders mag put Rawat in limbo From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:16:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Where was the article ever on the front page of their website? I just recall seeing the last issue until just now when, as you've pointed out, they've finally got this new one online. But the really funny thing is that they've got Rawat in this section 'Leaders in Self-Knowledge'. Who else might they profile in that department in coming issues? Sai Baba? Tony Robbins? Deputy Dog? Richard Dawkins? Jim Heller? Ayn Rand?

Subject: Yes, glad you brought that up From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:44:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Where was the article ever on the front page of their website? I just recall seeing the last issue until just now when, as you've pointed out, they've finally got this new one online. But the really funny thing is that they've got Rawat in this section 'Leaders in Self-Knowledge'. Who else might they profile in that department in coming issues? Sai Baba? Tony Robbins? Deputy Dog? Richard Dawkins? Jim Heller? Ayn Rand? --- Very funny, Dog. But imagine the real interviews. First, do the various possible subjects even believe there is such a thing as 'self-knowledge'? For myself, I'd need some explanation of the term because, as it is, I sure can't do anything with it. You can because you don't ever get nto the real meanings of words. As you so carefully demonstrated last week, you believe that you're the kind of person who doesn't really get into that kind of stuff, analyzing or anything. You're too, what was the word? Gooey? So the interview with you would be worthless. All you'd do would be to regurgitate some of the spiritual names and ideas you gulped down all your life. Everything would be sublimely cliched and superficial because, like I say, you're too 'gooey' for anything else. Rand had some interesting ideas and I'm sure she'd expound on them. If questioned, I'd hope she'd at least try to respond honestly. If she didn't, I'd be disappointed. Dawkins, in case you don't know, is an excellent interview subject. Have you ever read any conversations with him? Here's a link to one such dialogue. I know you decided in the end you weren't interested in reading any of his books but perhaps you'd be willing to at least read this interview and comment -- substantively, of course. :) I think you'll find that Dawkins actually engages his questioner, seeks out the real pith of the questions being asked and, apparently at least, tries to respond. My whole point about the Maharaji interview is that it's quite obvious that he doesn't do anything of the sort. He slides off and around each question as if there really was nothing to explain once you know how to listen with your 'heart'. Did you catch that? Interview with Richard Dawkins www.skeptic.com/www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/dawkins.html

Subject: Ayn Rand can't be interviewed From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:33:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Rand had some interesting ideas and I'm sure she'd expound on them. If questioned, I'd hope she'd at least try to respond honestly. If she didn't, I'd be disappointed.'' Unfortunately she smoked herself to death. I can't find the name of the author (probably one of her ''Objectivism'' students) of this bit about her: ''Fighting and rejecting mysticism within one's own self is the greatest, most important of all battles. And the most ironic, tragic loser of that battle was the philosopher, Ayn Rand. For she developed and harnessed the greatest mind to battle mysticism since Aristotle. Yet, she could never collect her full rewards, because she lost the battle to personal mysticism on several fronts. The most irrational, emotion-driven mysticisms were her rationalizations, vindictiveness, cultism, and smoking. The consequences of those mystical indulgences? Unnecessary unhappiness, sycophants limiting her work, and nicotine killing her. ...While Ayn Rand was totally non-mystical in her work and ideas, she became increasingly mystical and unhappy in her personal life.'' (By Rand's ''cultism'' of course the author means the cult which she gathered around her.) I couldn't find a quote of hers that contained the word ''self-knowledge'' but Rand's hero John Galt in ''Atlas Shrugged'' says: ''I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.'' A few more quotes from Rand: ''To fear to face an issue is to believe the worst is true.'' ''To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one's thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one's mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.'' ''There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist.'' ''Man's character is the product of his premises.'' ''To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer.'' ''The only purpose of education is to teach a student how to live his life-by developing his mind and equipping him to deal with reality. The training he needs is theoretical, i.e., conceptual. He has to be taught to think, to understand, to integrate, to prove. He has to be taught the essentials of the knowledge discovered in the past-and he has to be equipped to acquire further knowledge by his own effort.'' She may have been a bit too ideal and abstract (and definitely was not a perfect mistress or even wife) but she put into words some very obvious things which needed to be said by someone. It took a refugee from Soviet communism to understand some basic rules of freedom.

Subject: Re: Yes, glad you brought that up From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 00:07:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You've got to read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You've got to read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You've got to read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. And if you don't, you are a coward. I'll buy it for you, honest. I'll buy it for you, honest. You can get it second hand. Send me your address. Jim, you are Ayn Rand. Like her, you've put all your eggs in the rational basket. I at least balance my head and heart. Do you know how many years I spent in academe? And I like meditation too. Many people feel that science and rationalism alone, aren't enough. They need to take a vacation from their mind now and then. They find thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, 24/7, boring and stultifying. They like to let loose and get a little crazy once in a while. Remember the 60s? IMO it's nice to transcend your mind patterns now and then and wipe the slate clean. But if want to stay mired in your story, fine by me.

Subject: You make so many assumptions, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:51:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How do you know that Jim doesn't get out of his mind now and then probably just as often as you do. Or maybe your way is the ONLY way. I meditate too and Ayn Rand still means more to me than Alan Watts, Richard Alpert, Tim Leary, Buddha, Jesus, Krishna and Rawat all rolled into one big spliv. Do you even know what she meant by ''mysticism'' or ''emotionalism?'' Wild imaginings and wishful thinking - spiritual concepts. Not everyone is willing to pay the price of the suspension of reason to dabble with an ephemeral bliss. Or do you experience satchitanand 24/7? If so - pranam, mahatma ji.

Subject: Re: You make so many assumptions, PatC From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:21:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, You've done it again! Completely misunderstood my message. Of his own admission Jim has put all his eggs into the rational basket, and he has no use for mysticism. When have I ever come across as a Knowledge chauvinist? Get out of your mind now and then using whatever means you like, mantra, The Landmark Forum, yoga etc. As long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else. My way is not the ONLY way. You ask, 'Do I know what she meant by mysticism or emotionalism?' Wild imaginings and wishful thinking and spiritual concepts are still concepts. Spiritual concepts are still concepts. You say, 'Not everyone is willing to pay the price of the suspension of reason to dabble with an ephemeral bliss!' What the fuck are you talking about? I use reason. I use all of myself. My mind and my heart. Do I experience satchitanand 24/7? No! Wouldn't want to. Let me finish with a quote from Anthem by Ayn Rand. For the coming of that day shall I fight, I and my sons and my chosen friends. For the freedom of Man. For his rights. For his life. For his honor. And here over the portals of my fort, I shall cut in the stone the word which is to be my beacon and my banner. The word which will not die, should we all perish in battle. The word which can never die on this earth, for it is the heart of it, and the meaning and the glory. The sacred word: EGO Well Ayn, maybe there are two sacred words. EGO and SPIRIT.

Subject: It's not your programs, it's your operating system From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:35:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Surely you can see that even your opinions about people who 'put all their eggs into the rational basket' is just another bit of spiritual software? Look at a couple of the implicit assumptions: 1) There are different kinds of people in terms of how they use their minds. I'm not sure this is true, are you? Maybe it is, but what are the parameters of the distinction? Are these differences deeply-engrained like handedness or are they arbitrary and given to change moment-to-moment? Say a group of pentacostal christians flying back from (where is it they're always going? Africa maybe?) Africa crash somewhere. Trying to survive, some will try to deal with things practically while others might just sit there and pray like crazy. But these were all extremely committed spiritualists to begin with. How would you divide them now? What about someone who, like yourself, eschews worldly knowledge. If that person changes their mind at some point, starts learning certain scientific explanations for things they once only considered in spiritual terms and then begins to believe that all of her spiritual beliefs must be re-examined in a scientific context has she now become the kind of person you're talking about even though she might have spent years and years disinterested in any such worldly understanding? Or on the other side of the fence, are you saying that, if you were in a group of the other kind of people, none of them would ever know anything about science? Would each and every gooey person like you turn a blind eye to science like you have? Are you sure? To what extent? And how long did it take for the gooey people like you to learn, for instance, that the world was round? Did they just pick it up in a gooey kind of way? The fact is, Dog, as much as you like to claim that you're not interested in such worldly affairs, you've incorporated untold amounts of such information nonetheless. Think of all the scientific studies about AIDS you've heard or read about over the last 15 years. How often did you close your mind to any of it in favour of a more 'spiritual' understanding? 2) Even if there are two kinds of people as you seem to think, what does that say about how the one kind can talk with the other? Do you believe that there's nothing that a more rational person can say to someone like you to get your attention? What if you had found what you believed to be the most beautiful, even 'sacred' spot to homestead, for instance? But what if some slide-rule carrying poindexter, you know, a real all-eggs-in-one-basekt kind of rationalist who worked for some government agency showed up to tell you that the place was available simply because there were dangerous levels of mercury and cyanide in all the water there? Would you listen to him? How do you know? And, even if you did listen to him, where would you draw the line in following up on his report? And what if you had a spiritual mentor or teaching giving you contrary advice? Can you even imagine, Dog? Can you speculate or is that, too, too rational for you? You're not being honest with us, Dog. You do use your mind, this way and that. You're working now and you and I both know that it's your mind that matters there, that's what your employer is counting on. That's what he relates to. If your work, for whatever reason, entailed you learning about evolution, you'd start cracking the books without a second thought. Well, that's probably not true. You'd probably have a second thought for sure, you'd probably be frightened that what you were about to read might threaten some of your cherished spiritual beliefs. But you'd read it. What I find so hard to take about you is your dishonesty about this. Why don't you just come out and tell the truth about how it's not disinterest but fear that stands in your way here? Or is that kind of honesty unnecessary for someone so gooey? (And no, Dog, Ayn Rand has nothing to do with this.)

Subject: Content and context! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:31:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where did I ever say to throw out the rational mind? Is that written anywhere in these messages? Have I ever said that? That would be just as half-assed the other way. 'There must be some way out of here Said the joker to the thief; There is too much confusion I can't get no relief.' -- Bob Dylan That's where Spirit comes in handy. That spacious, quiet relaxation from time to time. Not ALL the time, mind you. Just sometimes, you know, an hour a day or so, for those who want to. You need your mind. You need your mind. You need your mind. You need your mind. But not all the time.

Subject: Red herring From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:52:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, When did I ever say you need to use your rational mind for everything? (Well, actually, I believe you pretty well do, in some way or another. Even Jackson Pollack relied on it when he was throwing paint on canvass. But of course he was trying, at least, to express something more, um, something-or-other.) But there are some issues that simply require your rational mind. Understanding the scientific explanation for how people evolved in the first place is one. Or can you think of some other way, without the rational mind, for understanding all that? You're playing a shell game, Dog.

Subject: Re: Red herring - hogwash! From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 23:18:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I don't care how we got here. Evolution, people from outer space hiding souls in volcanoes, a divine being creating figures out of clay and breathing into them . . . I really don't care. I've got enough theories. It's books like The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People by Steven Covey, Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer, Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein that turn me on. These books are much more practical because they help me in my day to day life. And the Spirit? Aaahhhhhhhh! In the Spirit I am relaxed and at peace in the midst of the confusions, bewilderments, and perplexities of this life. The storm rages but my heart is at rest. I have found peace -- at last! This is a shell game? Hogwash!

Subject: Re: Red herring - hogwash! From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 23:43:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't care how we got here. Evolution, people from outer space hiding souls in volcanoes, a divine being creating figures out of clay and breathing into them . . . I really don't care. I've got enough theories. Why did you post that Alan Watts stuff then, if you don't care how we got here? Aw, never mind. It's pointless, isn't it? You're too 'gooey' to argue with.

Subject: No, you misunderstood me, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:29:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''You've done it again! Completely misunderstood my message. Of his own admission Jim has put all his eggs into the rational basket, and he has no use for mysticism.'' Okay, I confess - I always deliberately misunderstand you because you assume so much and then expect me to buy into your assumptions. You use spiritual concepts which we all understand but I chose not to understand them because they are based on assumptions. All you little New Age poochies think you understand each other but of course you don't. You're playing a game of ''let's pretend.'' It's just like the premies assuming that K is the same uniform, universal experience for all. But it's subjective and we will never know. Like Jim, I've given up ''mysticism'' for ''rationalism'' and objectivism but how do you know what either of us feels? Just because I don't keep on about it doesn't mean that I don't feel great and count my blessings every morning first thing when I wake up and stand in awe of this incredible universe and feel love and joy and gratitude. I just don't divide myself up into two people - ego and spirit - the way you do. Those feelings of wonder and bliss are me, my ego, just as much as my thoughts are. The difference is that I am not willing to use old religious concepts to explain it or make assumptions about it the way you do. I don't know and I'm quite content not to know. I don't need to use stale cliches to describe myself or my existence. No, it is you who always misunderstand me because you are still thinking in duality and making assumptions. You are trapped by your spiritual concepts. How about being really honest and simple and saying straight out that you value your feelings as much as your thoughts but that you don't know what those feelings of love and joy are and then stop labelling them with tired old mystical mumbo-jumbo? Do you really think that you are feeling more love than Jim or me? But you want to call love ''spirit'' and for me love is just love. Perhaps you think that love is eternal. That's another spiritual conceptual cliche. Who can ever know - unless of course you talk to dead people?

Subject: Good point, Pat From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:43:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not as if Dog wants to lead us into this better, more precise, realm where we can really discuss questions such as 'How did people come to exist in the first place?' First, he doesn't want to discuss that to begin with. He put up Watt's summary of the hindu creation myth like a porcupine as if to say 'See what I can come up with if you don't leave me alone?! Now scram or I'll put up the whole damn Gita. Then what will you do?' He didn't want to discuss it because that would mean using his rational mind and -- even though he uses it all the time anyway, just like you or me -- he somehow doesn't think he does -- or, worse case scenario, he knows he does but just doesn't want to admit it. Dog wants obscurity. There will be no meeting of the minds on anything for him or any other spiritualist like him because that's oh so limiting. But I can sympathize. It's always hard to look at my bookshelf and admit that some of the stuff there is sheer crap.

Subject: Yes, it was an oops From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:56:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right - it never was on the first page of their site. I realized that after I started looking around. Interesting how much they charge for reprints - $16.62 each if you order the minimum of a hundred or less than a dollar if you order 5,000. I bet Rawat ordered at least 5,000 and then had the gall to charge $19 a pop in Scamaroo.

Subject: Re: Yet another oops From: Correction To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 10:26:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, that was $19 AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS, as reported below by Bai Ji, which is the equivalent of $9.50 in American money. Not '$19.' Oops

Subject: Cyberattackers - do something worthwhile From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 18:12:54 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: This is a message to the cyberattackers who attacked EPO, my ISP, have sent me 60 viruses in the last two weeks, and have tried to gain access to my computer 48 times in the last month. You are wasting your time. EPO is on four sites in two countries. Safe copies of EPO, and the site passwords, are held by unnamed individuals in four countries. This is in addition to myself and Jean-Michel whom I am sure are well known to you. EPO is safe. May I suggest you use your energies to do something worthwhile in this world? I just watched 'This is your life' which was about Christina Noble who had an appalling childhood in Dublin, and now runs a foundation helping children all over the world. Do something worthwhile with your lives. John.

Subject: That's a sick Joke coming from you From: The Doc To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:36:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You who spends his entire life trying to stop somebody from spreading his message about a wonderful, inspiring and incredible experience that lies just beneath the surface of our concept ridden minds. Good luck Cyberhackers and..... KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

Subject: You're a sick joke... From: Cynthia To: The Doc Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:57:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your statement above was an incomplete sentence, btw. Too much cocaine running through your system, Roupell? You spend your entire life trying to stop people from their free expressions about exiting a cult, discussing the exiting process, and you post under many 'anonymous' names, including Cerise. How do you reconcile your nastiness and your 'wonderful, inspiring and incredible experience?' I'll never forget what you said to a Jagdeo victim under the alias 'Cerise.' Never.

Subject: whatever get's you through the pain Gracie From: Ah well To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 00:04:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But one day, you poor thing, one day you won't have a memory, and despite the world being an infinitely nicer place - you won't be able to recall your hate trigger on demand. Oh well, I guess you are so completely full of it that there'll imaginary targets a plenty huh... Didn't you read the stuff the girls and others said to you recently? I did. And I don't think I need to add anything at all really. You are a spent force of negative foulness. And that is a very good thing. Oh yea, BTW - It was Nigel who placed those words before a 'Jagdeo victim' not cerise. But hey, let's not allow this minor detail to spoil your hatefest!

Subject: Don't you have some toes to suck? From: Hey Doc-DR-Cerise To: The Doc Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:45:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Make yourself useful in servitude to The Foundation Leader and spread some toejam to ease the world's suffering.

Subject: is happy his daughter joined a cult [nt] From: Don't forget-this guy To: Hey Doc-DR-Cerise Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 04:49:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What is Rawat's ''self-knowledge?'' From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 14:58:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of us know what anyone else experienced from K other than that it was ''nice'' but what is ''nice'' for one guy is not necessarily the same for another. Rev Rawat's big con is making the premies think that they are experiencing some sort of uniform universal cosmic truth and, even worse, that it comes from him. The fact that he no longer says that his ''Knowledge is God'' but refers to it as ''Self Knowledge'' is still deceptive nonsense because he is still cloaking it with mystery and still implying that it is a universal truth. Why did the techs work for some and not others? Because they are not essential. What is essential is aiming for and achieving what one wants and how that is obtained really is very personal. What I learnt from my years with M and K is that I am the master of my own subjective happiness and that all of it came from either my own efforts at meditation or because of my love for him. Not, premies please note, HIS love for me (he didn't even know I was alive) but MY love for him. The techs by themselves are actually useless and even dangerous if people think that they are a substitute for rational thought and attaining and maintaining mental health. Bliss without a foundation of rationalism and equanimity is ephemeral at best and infantilising at worse. Now, I prefer to direct my love to my fellow humans, especially the good and kind and wise, as well as all the other beautiful creatures on earth rather than him.

Subject: What is my ''self-knowledge?'' From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:13:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat; I've known more love, serving other humans and animals than I ever felt serving Maha. Actually I did feel love when I was a premie but it was always love for people around me. I also felt devotion in a very powerful way but it was devotion to my imaginary Maharaji Christ/God figure in my head. When I truly believed that Rawat was God on Earth, I did feel very powerful devotion to God on Earth. Not to Rawat but to my imaginary God on Earth figure. Such love did not exempt other people though and my love for God on Earth was mixed in with my love and compassion for other people and animals. Now I've cut out the God on Earth bit but the love is still there and also has come responsibility, which is love in action. I was very irresponsible as a premie but now I feel passionately responsible to do what I know has to be done for those who depend on me.

Subject: Hallelujah Brother Dave! From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:57:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on brother! Nicely said.

Subject: Re: What is my ''self-knowledge?'' From: reflection To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:31:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i like your post, sir dave. i have been seeing how powerful is the desire to adore in us , humans. personally, i enjoy seeing and listening mj. but i know that i can only adore what is inside of me keeping me alive. that will not defraude me, never. people, our concepts of god, or masters......that is so relative, it can change any moment. the love i feel inside of me make me love even those that dont act acording to my concepts. i was responsable before mj, but ignorant. i was responsable after mj. the diference was to know where the love comes from, just from inside of me. thank you for reading me

Subject: Re: What is my ''self-knowledge?'' From: Sir Dave To: reflection Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:38:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why state the obvious? Everything you feel is inside. Love, hate, whatever. Are you saying you don't feel anything from other people, perhaps? Like you're not touched by other people or don't need other people? You don't need them to love you or help you or don't appreciate them? Seems to me if that's the case, you've taken on board an impossible or rather cold philosophy. Or maybe you think that love only comes from Prem Rawat and within inside?

Subject: Re: What is my ''self-knowledge?'' From: reflection To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 12:35:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sir dave, what are you talking about?..... im human, you are human. we human, in general are social beings, we need need each other, its wonderful to have friends, families, to talk and laugh, to discuss. we are not alone. thats my experience. what is yours? many times i need help. i always find a hand. many times people around me needs help. i give a hand. - prem rawat has nothing to do with the love i feel inside of me. if he doesnt exist, the love i feel will still flow

Subject: Why state the obvious? Nice one, Dave. [nt] From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:54:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You have to believe Pat. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 16:23:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Despite the propaganda telling us, 'It's an experience,' Rawat's 'Knowledge' is based on faith and belief. Without these it doesn't work. You have to believe that the pretty patterns you see when you poke yourself in the eye is your true self- formerly known as 'Divine Light'. You have to believe that what you hear when you push your thumbs in your ears is the sound of your true self- not blood rushing over your eardrums. You have to believe that the snotlike taste you get from the back of your throat is the taste of the divine- previously known as 'nectar'. You have to believe that when you concentrate on your breathing, you are experiencing true, inner peace. You also have to believe that Rawat is the Perfect Master and you should obey everything he commands. If you take away the belief, 'Knowledge' is just some more Yoga techniques that you can get out of a book, and the whole scam falls apart. The proof of the pudding is in the eating- which is why 95% of the chosen ones have left the table before the coffee. Anth, once lost, then found, now, happily lost again.

Subject: Re: You have to believe Pat. From: Al Schafer To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:44:06 (EDT) Email Address: aschafer@san.rr.com Message: Hi Pat, Despite the propaganda telling us, 'It's an experience,' Rawat's 'Knowledge' is based on faith and belief. Without these it doesn't work. You have to believe that the pretty patterns you see when you poke yourself in the eye is your true self- formerly known as 'Divine Light'. You have to believe that what you hear when you push your thumbs in your ears is the sound of your true self- not blood rushing over your eardrums. You have to believe that the snotlike taste you get from the back of your throat is the taste of the divine- previously known as 'nectar'. You have to believe that when you concentrate on your breathing, you are experiencing true, inner peace. You also have to believe that Rawat is the Perfect Master and you should obey everything he commands. If you take away the belief, 'Knowledge' is just some more Yoga techniques that you can get out of a book, and the whole scam falls apart. The proof of the pudding is in the eating- which is why 95% of the chosen ones have left the table before the coffee. Anth, once lost, then found, now, happily lost again. --- I can't believe that the same discussion has been going on for 30 years. I would have never believed that what Pat, Lenny and I did in my apartment on Canfield 30 years ago would lead to. Al Schafer

Subject: Discussion? We weren't allowed! From: JHB To: Al Schafer Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:57:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Al, What you, Lenny and Pat (Halley for those who don't know), didn't lead to this, but you sure were on the right track, many thanks, and I'm sorry I dismissed Pat's action. The problem with the cult is that once you were in, rational discussion was out. Then, when someone you knew got out, you shunned them. Then, when you got out, everyone shunned you. No, discussion for ex-premies only started when Jim and Scott and a few others started talking on the internet about 5 or 6 years ago. Jim's still around, and I've been here for about three years. Many have come and gone. Maybe we will still be talking about it in 30 years:-) Welcome, and all the best! John.

Subject: Re: You have to believe Pat. From: reflection To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:15:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where do you come from my dear expremie. the beauty of this experience is , in fact, that you dont have to believe anything. when you see the light, thats nice... when you become one with the light, you dont see it anymore, you are that light...if i had to believe... i wont be even meditating. you have never experience, or you wont be writing the way you write. life is much better and interesting once you know who you are. it is like that for me and for many others who have experience. i can only talk for me. it works for me . ithas given me an understanding, compasion, love , respect, for life, for my life and everybodys life. you are included. jus because you dont see the elephant, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. i wish you the best

Subject: Seeing the elephant. From: AJW To: reflection Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where do you come from my dear expremie. the beauty of this experience is , in fact, that you dont have to believe anything. when you see the light, thats nice... when you become one with the light, you dont see it anymore, you are that light...if i had to believe... i wont be even meditating. you have never experience, or you wont be writing the way you write. life is much better and interesting once you know who you are. it is like that for me and for many others who have experience. i can only talk for me. it works for me . ithas given me an understanding, compasion, love , respect, for life, for my life and everybodys life. you are included. jus because you dont see the elephant, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. i wish you the best --- Hi reflection, Whenever I press my eyeballs I see the same light I used to see when I was a believer. It does absolutely nothing for me. I also get the same snotty taste when I stick my tongue back. I practiced religiously for well over 20 years. You tell me 'I never experience'. I imagine you mean I never experienced anything divine, cosmic, or even deep and meaningful. I agree with you on that one. It was a complete waste of time. Maybe I should have kept going for another 25 years and then something might have happened. But I doubt it. Most people who've tried have had the same experience as myself and quit. It's only the true believers, like yourself that continue. So tell me, what are all those pretty patterns that I see (and saw) when I push my eyeballs in? Anth, who wanted to see God face to face and had to settle for pretty patterns and snot.

Subject: knowing who you are From: salsa To: reflection Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 10:49:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you implying that the rest of humanity doesn't know how? That is a RAWAT fallacy, as the many others he inculcated in our minds. Each person in the world, independently of their culture has the same needs. Maybe you need to go to the Public library and get a Sociology book to understand what in the hell you are talking about, because obviously you do not know. All humans are compelled to get sincere with themselves, simply because all humans need a sense of equilibrium and nobody can find it until they know themselves, until they grow, and for that, nobody needs a master; NATURE DOES IT WELL. We were not born incomplete. We have since birth all the tools we need to survive and to learn how to enjoy life. YOUR MASTER IS A LIAR. Maybe it was new to you, but I already was enjoying been alive before meeting LARD. Why did I STAY FOR 26 YEARS with lard? I was 18, young, and I made the mistake of buying his ridiculous religious claim he made in the 70s of LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Be your own Lord is my motto today, and it does wonderful for me. I have an incredible peace and a sense of sanity that I was lacking while I was an adoring devotee. Hoping you comback someday and tell us that you have truly awaken. I WISH YOU WELL. For somebody to be at top somebody has to be at the bottom. Salsa, who doesn't believe anymore in an imaginar friend.

Subject: Brilliant, Salsa. I hope Dep reads this. [nt] From: PatC To: salsa Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:34:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Brilliant, Salsa. I hope Dep reads this. From: Dep 8) To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 23:53:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC I wouldn't have read Salsa's post without this subject line. Have you gone mad? You are suggesting that I go to the public library to get a book on sociology to find out what truth is? You are as bad a Jim who accuses me of not 'wanting to understand life better' because I'm not interested in reading a book on evolution. Is that where life is? In some fucking book? Did you guys actually receive Knowledge? Did you ever look into the book of life? Do you still think that the Truth is in concepts, black squiggly lines on a page? Is that where you for looking for Truth? Outside in someone else's concepts! Jeeeeeeze! This is quite sad! Very sad and a little acary! You really didn't get it did you?

Subject: Dep' you've got the wrong end of the stick. From: AJW To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:02:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep' I don't think anyone here is suggesting you'll find 'Truth' in a sociology book. I'd suggest you won't find it by poking yourself in the eyes either. You talk about 'Knowledge' as if it is an experience of 'Truth'. This is of course, utter bullshit. It's patterns, noise, breathing and snot, with a layer of 'Worship and Obey' added. That's it Dep. And it only works if you believe. That's why, as soon as you stop believing, it stops working. You obviously haven't stopped believing yet. Maybe you should give it a try. Everyone else who's had the courage to do this agrees that the quality of life improves dramatically as soon as you do this. Do yourself a favour Dog'. Use your brain, figure it out. It ain't too difficult. It's a cult. Anth, who loves a good book.

Subject: Re: Brilliant, Salsa. I hope Dep reads this. From: Livia To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 07:53:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Honestly, Dep, sometimes you sound like a 20-year old who's just formulated a theory of the universe. Haven't you ever realised it's a good idea to be open to new ways of thinking, new ways of looking at things? Aren't you curious to examine life and the universe from other perspectives than your own? From what you say, it seems as if you've decided how things are, and you've crystallised your views. This is what fundamentalists do. Fundamentalists, dear Dep, can pop up in all sorts of guises. There can be fundamentalist Christians (obviously), fundamentalist Moslems (obviously), fundamentalist Jews (obviously) and fundamentalist members of cults(obviously to everyone except the cult members themselves). (Ditto all above fundamentalists) There can also be fundamentalists who adhere to a particular view of the universe and refuse to be shifted from that view. You are entitled to your view of the universe, Dep, the same as we all are. But please don't state your views as if they are concrete fact. You have had experiences in meditation - we have all had experiences in meditation, Dep, otherwise I doubt any of us would be here, debating on this forum. The crucial point of all this is the interpretations we have all put on our experiences. Premies tend to interpret their experiences as meaning that Knowledge is basically an experience of their inner self, and that Maharaji is worthy of lifelong respect and gratitude for 'having revealed self-knowledge'. Many exes are interested in questioning these assumptions and in looking at the reasons why people need to make these assumptions in the first place. Aren't you also interested in questioning assumptions, Dep? Questioning assumptions increases wisdom and understanding; aren't you interested in increasing your own wisdom and understanding? Or do you already think you have enough of both? Livia Some exes still meditate, some don't. Presumably the ones who do, still experience someting otherwise they wouldn't bother. But they don't interpret

Subject: Precisely, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 18:54:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Some exes still meditate, some don't. Presumably the ones who do, still experience someting otherwise they wouldn't bother. But they don't interpret...'' I do meditate and still have the exact same experience as I've had for nearly 30 years but I no longer think of it as ''god, truth, immortality etc'' as I had been taught by Rev Rawat to think. To me it is simply brain chemistry. JHB calls it neuro-masturbation. I like that. And anyone who knows me will tell you I give very good shaktipat - contact high, good vibes. :C) Dep really is afraid to look at it with his own intelligence and is still stuck with Hindu spiritual concepts.

Subject: Shakti Pat - new name! From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 19:03:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All this time we thought you were plain ol' Pat C. Now you let slip quietly that you are really the spiritual adept henceforth known as Shakti Pat. :) As my old pal Mahatma Coat would say Oh, bruzza. You are just being so really too much and I'm just so very blissing out.

Subject: You sound more arrogant everyday, Dep. Sorry. [nt] From: PatC To: Dep 8) Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 04:16:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: knowing who you are From: reflection To: salsa Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 12:43:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi, salsa.. whatever works for you, thats fine. im not against anything helps you though life. i agree with you that we all have the same basic needs., and that nature life itself helps you grow. why to fight, why so much hate. i accept that you dont need anybody. accept that for me it was esencial that somebody pointed the way inside. im happy with my life, pay my taxes, work, raise my children, love my parents. i feel completaly in this world. at the same time, i close my eyes and i experience something very nice. it's that simple.

Subject: I believe you, Reflection From: JHB To: reflection Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:07:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem with belief is not while you're meditating, but afterwards when the old pesky mind kicks in. Your mind then tells you that Maharaji had some special part in what you experienced, and you believe it. You then believe that without him, you would not experience meditation. You believe so strongly, you are willing to ignore all his moral failings as a human being to continue to believe. OK, that's your belief in Maharaji. Now for your belief in the experience. Before you meditiated you were told, and you believed, that it was an experience of your true self. You then had the experience, and afterwards, your belief was reinforced. Now I've asked this question many times here, but here goes again. What evidence do you have, apart from the very powerful feelings you have, that the experience you have is an experience of your true self, or has any other profound meaning? Yes, I know it feels profound, and it feels profound to me too, but what evidence other than the totally subjective experience, do you have? And don't point to the words of others who share your belief, because as far as I can see, they also have no evidence other than it felt profound to them. I look forward to a thoughtful answer. John.

Subject: Re: I believe you, Reflection From: reflection To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:11:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my husband used to ask me the same question. and get angry at my lack of thoughful answers. i understand your point . holding a pen between 2 finguers is registered by the brain as only one sensation. feelings, weather in or out are easily fooled. . to continue my answer i need to know what you really experience inside, wheather or not you use the techniquis

Subject: How about a 'felt' answer? From: DR To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:37:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You opine....to reflection (hey - use your own name - these people can't touch you) 'What evidence do you have, apart from the very powerful feelings you have?' What kind of fucking insane dumbass question is that?! you say...'APART FROM the very powerful feelings you have?' Get A Grip! What IS more powerful than that? Please tell us of great and wise one. There's a more powerful way? Like what...a powerful statement read from a book or heard from some wiseass philosopher? For GOD'S SAKE!!! What evidence do you have about that last orgasm you had?? SHOW US THE EVIDENCE PROVING IT WAS A GOOD TIME! SHOW US. PROVE IT! Are you trying to tell the world that YOUR EVIDENCE gained through your eyes and ears (to your mind brain) is MORE real than an experience that is felt without any input from outside? You have to READ something before it becomes Evidence? For fuck's sake... HOW did you con your way into a Knowledge session Brauns? You wouldn't get within 1000 yards these days. I GOTTA GO AND GET SOME SERIOUS DRUGS TO ERASE THIS AWFUL UGLY MEMORY

Subject: So you're saying it feels good? From: JHB To: DR Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:02:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, If you're saying it feels good, and that's ALL you're saying, then I believe you and I'll leave you to your neuromasturbation cult, because that's all it appears to be. All the best you neurow****r. John.

Subject: outside input From: Livia To: DR Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:47:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: an experience that is felt without any input from outside? What "experience that is felt without any input from outside?" None of us did our first ever meditation while or after receiving Knowledge without having listened to a fair amount of satsang beforehand. Our interest in and 'thirst' for receiving Knowledge was based on what we had already heard about it. This adds up to 'input from the outside', I'm afraid. None of us will ever know what the experience of Knowledge would be like without having any preconceived ideas about it whatsoever. And the remotest preconceived ideas amount to 'input'. Livia

Subject: Re: How about a 'felt' answer? From: Livia To: DR Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:39:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell, you only have to muse for a few seconds to work out that feelings are not evidence of anything very much. Think about it. People fall in love with someone wholly unsuitable, but for a while they are utterly swept away by their feelings. To them, that person they have fallen passionately in love with is the most wonderful person on earth. Further down the line, when all the evidence has kicked in, that person sadly turns out to be nothing like what the person had originally felt, often with all their heart. Christians have passionate feelings that Christ died for them, to take on their sins. Sai Baba devotees are so smitten by Sai Baba that when they see him, they feel without a shadow of doubt that he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever lived. I know a Sai Baba devotee well, and can assure you that her feelings about him are just as intense as the feelings of any premie, from how she expresses them. Believers in any ideology feel intensely that their ideology is the one thing the world really needs. Every day, people have 'gut' feelings that turn out to be hopelessly wrong. Hitler felt passionately that the Jews were the cause of all that was wrong with the world, for Christ's sake. If your feelings are that Maharaji is the one, and that the Knowledge is the truth, then what about everybody else's feelings, which can be just as intense and certain for them as yours are for you? Look, even if you were to see Maharaji vividly in your meditation, it's not proof of anything very much. Buddhists sometimes see Buddha and Christians have had intense visions of Jesus. It is most certainly possible to have an internal vision of something or someone you intensely believe in. I used to argue this point a lot with a non-premie friend. He always used to pull me up when I said that I 'just knew' that Knowledge was the truth. I used to get incredibly frustrated when he said that my feelings didn't ultimately amount to anything concrete, just as you are frustrated by this discussion. Look, if the meditation makes you feel great, that's wonderful, but your interpretation of it is based on faith, belief, surmise, projection and hope. But I can see that getting you to see this is nigh on impossible. Livia

Subject: Criteria for getting Knowledge - to DR From: Thorin To: DR Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:32:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR You said: For fuck's sake... HOW did you con your way into a Knowledge session Brauns? You wouldn't get within 1000 yards these days. Putting aside your obvious love of mangling the English language please could you inform us what criteria is currently used for determining who gets Knowledge these days. I understand that generally Charanand and Belkis make the final selection based on criteria that is vague and unpublished. Is it true that only people who make a verbal commitment that they will forever feel Gratitude to the Master actually gets selected? Just wondering... Thorin

Subject: reposting Livia's brilliant post from LG From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 19:19:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry I missed you, Anth. You must have posted just after I left for work. Hope you are well and happy. Here's Livia's response to Harry on Life is Great which I think addresses this issue very well: Harry, you obviously put a lot into that post. You quoted from a previous post of mine and called it 'drivel'. 'But these days the Knowledge seems to be the carrot that leads you towards the gratitude, and then the gratitude leads you into the mindset, and then the mindset turns you into a cult person who forgot they could ever think for themself.' Perhaps you didn't understand quite what I meant. After you receive Knowledge, you begin to practise the meditation shown. You may or may not experience something. I know plenty of people who did experience something, and you have to be honest here - there are plenty who didn't, even after months of effort, and many of those walked. I did experience something, I can't deny it. But one thing neither you or I or any of us have any proof of, is that that experience came by courtesy of Maharaji. Back then, when I was 21, I believed that it did, and I carried on believing it for 30 years. Do you think all that satsang didn't have any effect? Do you think all that surrounding ourselves with premies and premie activities didn't have any effect? You obviously don't accept that a belief system was created around this whole thing. But then it's a very difficult thing to see when you have been swept up into it yourself, and it becomes a part of you, and the filter through which you begin to see and interpret everything. We were told, over and over again, that the Knowledge worked only by Maharaji's grace, and the idea became a self-fulfilling prophesy - you only allowed yourself to have the experience through the vehicle of believing in him. Over a period of time, what began as an experience of something, turns into a belief in what that experience means and where it comes from. This then crystallises into a mindset, whether you like it or not. I'm sure you won't agree with me, but to my eyes, premies now subscribe to a mindset - that of belief that the Knowledge only works because of Maharaji (hence the gratitude). Of course when you are a part of that premie world, you can't really see this, because you are in the middle of it. Sai Baba devotees and Moonies don't see themselves as being in a cult either, because something very similar has happened to them. And born-again Christians. And anybody else who believes that what they experience is unique to the thing that they are a part of. Of course I remember what the experience felt like - not difficult, because I still do the meditation at times and it still feels very good. Maybe I still even feel some gratitude because Maharaji enabled me to receive Knowledge. But I just don't put the same interpretation on it that I used to. And please get a sense of perspective - if premies were really experiencing that much 'love, awareness and a moment-to-moment richness and heightened sense of EVERYTHING that's precious about your existence.' don't you think it would be a little more obvious to the people around them? Where is the 'buzz' around premies these days? The premies in my town look grey and tired; they certainly don't stand out as being people who have been touched by anything special. And this is after 30 years for some of them. They certainly don't look the way they used to. Why, I wonder? Premies glimpse something from time to time. Maharaji has been worshipped since he was 8 and expects and thrives on worship. This worship has allowed him to develop a personal charisma that can be intoxicating at times if you believe that he is the behind the experience you have in meditation. Look, I'm not saying that believing in him is necessarily a bad thing for you personally. Maybe it's been the best thing that ever happened to you. And I'm not going to argue with you about the meditation. When you manage to stop thinking, something that feels really quite profound can happen. But try to imagine how you would interpret that experience without all the trappings, without all the words, without all the ideas about it. Can you do that? Can any premie? Really, really honestly? Why should the experience need all those words and interpretations anyway? What I'm continually getting at is that it's all in the interpretation. Why is the interpretation of the experience so, so important - to premies? Could it be that once you have decided and pronounced on the interpretation, and continually reinforced it and believed it, it becomes incredibly hard to break away from because you've invested so much in that belief? Look, arguing back and forth is pointless. You have your view, I have mine. I have come to my view after much soul-searching and consideration. If you want to interpret your experience the way you always did, and that works for you, fine. And if you want to call what my views 'entirely wrong-headed, presumptuous, condescending and misguided', fine, that's up to you. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

Subject: Re: reposting Livia's brilliant post from LG From: reflection To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:23:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i like your post,patc. you are really honest. but here you have a person who doesnt believe that the tecnics work, or even that they work because of mj. mj's work-for me- is to open my heart, so then, when i look inside, or i listen inside, and i can do this even if i dont have hands or finguers- i can go deep enaugh, and trust an experience that that can not be describe with words. i wish you the best .

Subject: Hi, reflection From: PatC To: reflection Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:46:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you misunderstood Livia. Like me, so far as I can tell, she still uses the techniques and enjoys them but she does not believe that they reveal anything special like ''self-knowledge.'' I just don't believe the Maharaji religion anymore but sure I like to feel great.

Subject: Re: reposting Dermot's brilliant post from LG From: Livia To: reflection Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 10:06:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I loved this post... To be honest Carlos....I can only let rip against Prem Pal or try to get across my perspective to Premies in short bursts When it boils down to it, people are free to do what they want. I know that.IMO, there's plenty of info on EPO to make a reasoned, rational judgement about the whole shabang. Going right back to the general history of the whole thing (Radha saomi etc),onto Shri Hans, all the topsy turvy history of Guru Maharaji, Maharaji, Prem Pal,DLM, WPC,DUO,EV,TPRF etc. For me personally,though, EPO and reading the forums played a major part but, crucially, I really looked at my whole life history too. From the 22yo getting K, my ashram era,all the festivals.events.progs through the 70's, 80's 90's,my experiences in the communities, my experiences with the Premies, all the thousands and thousands of hours listening to Satsang.The 'Service' and meditation.... I was careful not to forget or avoid the good times, fun times, the positives...all that stuff....but also looked carefully, very carefully, at what was really going on. Looking back , I'm amazed it took me so long but in all honesty all I could see at the heart of the whole trip was a strange, almost perverse ....what's the word?....well basically infatuation with a person. Given the supposed Master/teacher dynamic postulated by Prem Pal and absorbed by us all at one time or another, the word 'infatuation' seems superficial. When I stripped it all down though.....in spite of all the devotional tears, ecstatic dancing,dedicated music,intense meditation,darshan,all night phone links, videos,etc etc etc etc ....I concluded that the 'infatuation' was leading nowhere fast.Once I stopped revering Maharaji then I carefully listened to the 'unknown' exes and their experiences and also the 'Mishlers', 'Dettmers' of this world.I'm not gullible but the overwhelming documentation of Maharajis habits, attitudes and behaviour in contrast to the usual stage image also hit home. For existing devotees I've no doubt at all that he can play the charisma card along with a whole set up of events/longings/expectations to convince them of his 'super special' staus.....but it cuts no ice with me now.I've lost my respect for him ....instead I see a clever charlatan, exactly as I see Sai Baba or any other person in the spiritual supermarket, pushing their own peculiar message that only through them is real love, depth and truth truly possible. It just rings hollow now. Really thogh, I know I would never convince anyone who still wants to follow Maharaji.Some people, who have serious doubts for one reason or another, no doubt would find EPO helpful and following on from that communicating with those who've left him behind. For many though his basic message to never doubt his purity and to never seriously question him, keeps them within his world. Also his continual reinforcement that people should be grateful to him keeps those in that sensitive, vulnerable space of deep allegiance. As for your point about exes wanting to convert me back ....well they'd have to start to discuss and debate in order to that ....as you know, that's not something Maharaji encourages.Ultimately a Premie believes what Maharaji believes but they think they believe it themselves So if he suddenly said I want you to go out there and bring back premies who've walked or go to non-premies and really debate and discuss life and M and K, then I'm sure you'd all be a bit non-plussed at first. Once his subliminal message had penetrated though, say, after a few weeks we'd never be able to shut you up)) AND...AND...you'd honestly believe it was the most natural, self-inspired thing under the sun.Remember you are just followers. He leads you. Not like a politician or a General but deep deep down in your psyche. Is that condescending enough Also, mate, remember this....we ex-premies received loads of satsang before getting K and loads as premies....we owe HIM thousands upon thousands of hours of ANTI-SATSANG before things are equal hahahahaha. Only joking....I don't think I could possibly endure such torture haha. .....maybe you premies should encourage me to bombard you with loads of condescending sermons because I usually feel like leaving the forums for good when I go into one First because its like talking to a brick wall, second because you're adults and if you (you onlines ones especially) haven't cottoned on yet then you probably never will and thirdly because I've got my own life to live and enjoy.....there's only so much I or anyone, ex or prem, can say without repating ourselves. For instance, all the above has probably been said by me, here on this forum.....how many times? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Yes, Livia, I liked Dermot's post too From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:46:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why are you guys wasting your sweetness on the desert air of Life is Great? The premies all read F7 anyway. :C)

Subject: the stale air of LG From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:02:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good question Pat! First time I went over there I couldn't believe so many F7 posters were bothering to go over there at all. The trouble is, though, you have a look, feel you just have to respond to a point and then you get caught up in a dialogue. But I'm getting a stronger and stronger feeling there is no point whatsoever in going over there at all. They are all very bound to their belief system over there and getting them to see it is a bit like talking to born-again Christians'; you just go round and round in circles with the Christians continually avoiding the questions they don't like. Perhaps we should just leave them all alone. And anyway, the air is so much fresher and clearer over here. love to you, Livia

Subject: Also, as Dermot points out today From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:34:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The atmosphere is dominated by the anonymous cultweasel cowards which by the way includes Roupell who did not chose to ''come out'' but was outed by one of his socalled friends in Oz. He would still be using one of his numerous aliases if that had not happened. Those who are known by their real names (Chris Dickey, Mili, Carlos and Jim Boeger from SF) are really fixed in their concepts but don't get a chance to talk sincerely as Roupell in one of his many guises jumps in and starts slagging. It's a cesspit of cult paranoia.

Subject: This is the perennial question From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 16:17:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which has been the subject of much conversation on this & previous forums. I fear the answer is as elusive as ever. I went into the k session with an open(ish) mind,because I got it just before the system was racked up to the extent that one had to invest a great deal of time, & believe in heem totally, beforehand. It was the recognition of having seen the 'light' as an infant that convinced me that,despite my misgivings about the bloater & the creepy people around him,he must be who he said he was. (they weren't all creepy,just some) I don't think that without that memory I would have been so sure,but that's academic now. Thing is,despite 28 yrs of practice,during which the number of 'highs' were very small,I mean anyone experience mahasamadhi,the core belief remained. Until the reality of himself & his doings,carefully hidden,was revealed through EPO,whereupon the rational mind responded with, 'this can't be true regardless of your own perceptions'. So what I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas,is how the light tek can trigger a memory that goes back beyond the threshold. Did this happen to anyone else?

Subject: Re: This is the perennial question From: Jean Valjean To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:37:27 (EDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Yes PatD, it did happen to me quite similarily as your own experience. I got quite an incredible light and salvation experience BEFORE i got in contact with The Guru Maharaji in 1974. Back then, and for many many years, that was the thing that kept me 'in touch' with The Master. I am a EPO7 freaklurker these days and i feel a lot of good and understanding reading you all guys and galls. All my very best

Subject: Any ideas From: PatD To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 19:32:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As to what that could be? I admit I'm lazy about trying to find out myself,but I am curious. My own theories are a kind of murky soup made up of brain chemistry,anthropology & all sorts of bits & pieces. Not that I'm particularly bothered anymore as to whether I find the 'answer'. Still,if someone has an insight ....I'm up for that.

Subject: That's cute Jean - ''freaklurker?'' :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 03:57:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: This is the perennial question From: reflection To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:45:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi, patd...when i went to mj i didnt like anything i saw. premis were irresponsable, full of ego -not all- all the staff of adoration was against my codes of conduct, i thought many premis were just inventing experiences. instructors -some- were so full of shit i couldnt believe mj can put this people to reveal 'K'. mj.message made click in me. he was talking a languaje that i understood. his satsangs were the only thing i could relate to. and when i went inside and melted in light, i just knew what he was talking was true. my head could say anything it wanted, i knew there was onlu one love. for a while, i was thankful to mj. because he pointed in the right direction, and i got into the trap of believing and adoring him, but the understanding came soon, everything begins and end with me.

Subject: You Cunt...... From: PatD To: reflection Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 19:07:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who the fuck are you? Who cares. Take the piss all you like,the evidence is there. Spend all your money(I'll bet you haven't the balls)& have a great time with the Bollixshwar next time round. Don't think you can rattle anyone who has seen through this shit. 28 yrs before the mast makes one more determined to uproot the little cockroach than you can ever imagine. As for you,o man of many voices,gibber away smartarse. Shit,I've just fallen for your ploy. We ever meet in real life.....I'll spit in your face.

Subject: Sounds like heroin From: Jim To: reflection Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:24:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only, heroin doesn't keep asking you to express your appreciation and gratitude for the rest of your life. Unless you're willing to use your brain and whatever relevant knowledge you can muster regarding how this all came about, you might as well be a puppy. You'll note that puppies don't use capital letters either.

Subject: a lovely posting NT From: jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 16:17:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: the Sheriff is back in town... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 12:48:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was away on some personal business and now I'm back and ready to kick some troll ass. Roupell, you're outta here. I mean it. You come back and you are toast. This anonymouse jerk premie from Lifes Grate is outta here too. I'm gonna go through things and yank their stupid troll posts off the board and do some IP blocking so if you want any of the junk you better save it soon.

Subject: Anyone seen anything so pathetic as that? From: DR To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:38:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unbelievable! Comon big Sheriff, see this nasty evil ex rustler outa your town!!!

Subject: God, you are so blind! From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:49:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell, You're really not the brightest guy around, are you? Over the last couple of days you have: 1) Boasted about posting here under a variety of fake personas and threatened to set up yet another, only this time posing as a vacillating, confused premie asking for help. 2) Congratulated whoever has been trying to send EPO all the viruses John's been talking about and urging them on to keep trying. Like I asked you before, where do you draw the line? Do you know?

Subject: well, like I said.. usually the coffee table From: Where do I draw the line? To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:02:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But if we're travelling overseas I ask the First Class flight attendant for a plate (crockery) and we cut the lines on that. In genuine party circumstances, such as a busy club at 2am, we often make do with the top of the cystern in the women's loo (after cleansing it with Vodka), a bit mucky, I agree. But by then we've sipped on enough Pol Rodger not to care anymore.

Subject: You abet IT crime and use cocaine, Mr Roupell? [nt] From: PatC To: Where do I draw the line? Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 04:01:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: the Sheriff is back in town... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 14:05:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry, Just wanted to say I love you!:):) Now puleese kick troll ass.

Subject: Re: the Sheriff is back in town... From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 13:45:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good, I ran out of hand-cuffs two days ago.

Subject: It's a good thing! From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 15:05:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things have gone to hell in a handbasket (just joking).

Subject: Re: It's a good thing! From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 15:13:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes. Sorry, Gail, I don't feel that I have the right to delete posts (other than the spam and libellous stuff) as it's Gerry's forum and I'm just the night-shift janitor. Unfortunately while Gerry was out of town and left me in charge, I let the mess build up a bit.

Subject: Yea but the trouble is Pat From: The Doc To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:10:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yoiu take all the 'mess' out of here... and all you're left with is this crazy confused jumble of convoluted polluted grimey mental hystrionics and perverted past memories of a lost paradise. An intellectual mutual masturbation session that must be a living hell to clean up!!!

Subject: The trouble, Mr Roupell, is you're a phony [nt] From: PatC To: The Doc Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 04:03:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: It's a good thing! From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 17:20:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, I wasn't criticizing!

Subject: Tea Time AV From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 07:25:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just saw your post about tea, where exactly should I bring the lemon drizzle cake. Do you have your own doilys or should I bring those too? Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Tea Time AV From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 16:52:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly put the kettle on Bolly put the kettle on Bolly put the kettle on, we'll all have tea! Oh yes, doilys a must, and lashings of Earl Gray to boot LOL

Subject: Anyone have Hamzen's website? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 20:58:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looking for Hamzen's website, like now, to show a friend who's moving to England next week. By the way, if any of you English exes want to meet a cool friend of mine, into music, graphics, web stuff -- around 25ish -- let me know. He's moving there, doesn't have many hookups. He's got a good sense of humour. Steals a bit though. Not big stuff, of course. :) I can't keep track of where all the English exes are. All somewhere in Wales or something, no? Anyway, if you're interested please email me: jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Re: Anyone have Hamzen's website? From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 16:01:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I just tried Hamzens URL and his site, (like mine) seems to be down at the moment. Whereabouts is your pal going to live in England? If it's Cornwall, I'm sure we can lead him astray and put his illegal talents to good use. Who knows, he may even be stealing big stuff by the time he gets back to the colony. Anth always willing to lead the innocent folk from the colonies off the straight and narrow.

Subject: Re: Anyone have Hamzen's website? From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 16:48:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, I had a piece of paper somewhere around here with Lee's itinerary but, silly bugger, I think he stole it. (Well, not intentionally. It was in a bag with some of my books and CD's he took last night but I don't think he specifically knew that I had some notes in there too). From memory, though, I only know that he's planning to go to London. There are lots of thieves there, aren't there, Anth? He's a little worried that he won't meet anyone. By the way, I don't know how to say this really, but, well, he's Dutch. He almost moved to Amsterdam where he's got a lot of extended family but he didn't. Anth, while we're talking about Holland -- and this part isn't a joke, by the way -- Lee tells me he knows nothing about the strange Dutch taste for uncooked hamburger which I seem to recall was popularly available in little storefront deli-type places, sold out of machines. What's that stuff called anyway? E-coli burgers? Anyway,

Subject: Dutch Hamburgers (ot) From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 07:30:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Dutch cuisine is a fascinating subject. There are loads of vending machines that sell hot food. Some of the 'restaurants' there consist of a room full of vending machines, open 24 hours, full of suspicious looking sausages, etc. I've never been drunk and hungry enough at the same time, so I've never indulged. The only raw meat I know about that they eat is herring. It's the only aspect of 'suchi' to reach Europe. They take the heads off, gut them, and sprinkle the inside with chopped spring onion. You hold them by the tail and lower them into your mouth. They are supposed to be excellent for hangovers. In the South of Holland (the best bit), where they have carnival (four days of riotous indulgence of every kind) the day after Carnival (Ash Wednesday for the Christians) is called Herring Day. Lots of the bars have big trays of raw herrings, free for the customers who have spent the previous four days boozing, toking etc. You should come over to Europe and find out what's going on over here Jim. It's an exciting place, what with dope being legalised everywhere and the Nazis on the rise again. Anth, DSHMAN (Dope Smoking Herring Munchers Against the Nazis).

Subject: Potoflaise? From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 17:18:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: True Love? From: Will To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 11:50:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'You think that your wife, your husband, your children will give you love? No. It is the love of selfishness. But we love guru without any selfishness. It is pure and perfect love.' -Prem Rawat, Dec. 1971 'We take for granted the ones we love the most. Ultimately, we care for them the least. So we have to understand the importance of the master - whether he is called guru, satguru, master or teacher.' -Prem Rawat, April 2002, as paraphrased and reported on ELK. Yes, Prem Rawat, your message has stayed the same throughout these 30 years. But, hey, speak for yourself, would you? Not everybody dishonors and distrusts the people in their lives. For example, not everyone disowns their own mother for their entire adult life. Not everybody goes to court against their own brothers. Not everybody acts as if their family members do not even exist. Not everybody cheats repeatedly on their wife. No, not everybody is lucky enough to experience that true and perfect love of the guru. Some people content themselves with ordinary human loving kindness. They share it with all the people in their lives who they honor and trust. They recognize the imperfectness of this world, but also recognize the futility of pursuing some false inhuman ideal of perfectness. Mature people learn to respect the boundaries of each person's individuality while honoring the underlying unity of us all. Therefore love is not divided into human and divine as if they compete with each other. Rather the one power of love is acknowledged in all its harmonies, large and small.

Subject: Human loving kindness From: Richard To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 13:21:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nicely said Will. I am grateful to be among those people you say . . . . . . content themselves with ordinary human loving kindness. They share it with all the people in their lives who they honor and trust. I just booked a flight to see my 95 year old dad who is recovering from a broken hip. Recently I attended my brother's wedding. Both are far more rewarding endeavors for me than a Gu-Gu Ga-Ga gathering. My heart is full when I give and receive love. Richard, glad to be alive and awake

Subject: Amen, brother. Amen. / nt From: Carl To: Will Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 17:04:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yowza

Subject: Love and Happiness From: Gregg To: Will Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 12:52:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beautifully put, Will. It is obviously in M's interest to downplay this kind of love; more love for him! He's more subtle about it now than he was then. But the subtext is still there: love and gratitude for the Master is the greatest love of all. I'm sure I'm not the only one who listened to love songs on the radio and transformed them into devotional songs. Similarly, we premies/PWK's transformed our instinctive thirst for genuine love into an imagined romance with a omnipotently loving Master. Not terribly healthy, was it. Perhaps there is room in the life of a contemporary Western mystic for love for a Master and love for God. But if such a love exists at the expense of one's family and friends, something is very wrong. (And even with today's Self-Knowledge Lite, there is an obvious tendency toward reserving one's quality time for the love affair with Maharaji.) As is pointed out in Will's message above, love is love and can suffuse all of life with its sweetness. Mahraraji's divide and conquer approach is not at all in the spirit of the Kabir he so loves to quote.

Subject: Re: Love and Happiness From: Bolly Shri To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 06:31:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will has put it very well. Give the dregs to those you are close to and save the best for Marge. No wonder so many prems are so loopy in their social relationships.

Subject: Pure primitive Hinduism From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 13:43:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Arjuna: ''But how can I kill them, Krishna? They are my relatives.'' Krishna: ''But, look, Arjuna - they don't have self-knowledge and are therefore like dead people. You can't kill them because they are already dead.'' The further I get away from the cult the worse it begins to look. I spent 28 years thinking that Rev Rawat's sermons about the evils of putting wife, kids and family first instead of him were fairly practical advice. Practical that is if you believed that the dumb superstitious ''self-knowledge'' is the eternal reality. When you begin to see that his Special K is simply a brain-warping piece of primitive crap of course the rest of his Hindu religion begins to look like insanity - on a par with worshipping cows which of course in India are valued more highly than wives (unless they're cash-cows) by primitive peasants.

Subject: Leaders From: Follower To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 07:26:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a list of the people with Knowledge who were profiled in the Leaders article- Richard Cooper= Vice President Grubb & Ellis Company. Neil Evans= Executive Director National Workforce Center for Emerging Technologies. He was formerly the CIO (1983-1994) of Microsoft. Marcus L. Munger Ph.D.= A nuclear physicist and R & D project leader for Lockheed Martin. Dr Sandy Hewitt= director of Business Excellence for Rolls Royce. Lauren Evers= CEO of Entellikey Labs. Dr Giulio Cossu= President of the Italian Society of Cell and Developmental Biology. Where do they get these people from?

Subject: Re: Leaders From: Bolly Shri To: Follower Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 06:37:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The English satirical mag, Private Eye has in the past carried stuff about Marge. I haven't seen the Leaders piece, but I imagine the rag would be interested to know that our satguru is now a respectable business figure. Now he's hanging with the bone fide Honchos of global capitalism I hope they are all kissing his feet and putting it into their CVs Love etc

Subject: Private Eye, Jagdeo and Cainer From: Livia To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 17:45:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The English satirical magazine Private Eye published a piece about Maharaji not all that long ago. It was about the Jagdeo issue, can you believe. An English daily called The Daily Express had got hold of the Jagdeo story and were going to print it. Jonathan Cainer, devout premie astrologer, ran a highly successful daily astrology column in the rival Daily Mail. I'm not sure of the exact details of how this all came about, but the upshot was that Cainer suddenly moved across to the Daily Express. What was behind it was a deal where Cainer agreed to go over there in exchange for them not publishing the Jagdeo story. The Jagdeo story was never published. Private Eye got hold of this and found out that when questioned, Cainer denied that he was a follower of Maharaji. Silly, really, because Private Eye then immediately looked up his website and of course it talks about M. So they wrote about that little deception too. Interesting, huh? Love, Livia

Subject: can you post that article? nt From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 00:49:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Livia, I responded to your earlier questions [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:17:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Livia, I responded to your earlier questions From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 09:54:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I just finished reading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey. Loved it! Fantasic book. I am simply not interested in evolution. I find it boring and won't waste my time reading about it. I also don't like tennis, or model airplanes, or mountain climbing. You have a problem with that? Fair enough, you're not interested in evolution, but then isn't it a subject that's hard to separate from the discussion you were originally having with Jim and others? You can hardly put evolution as a subject on a par with tennis, model aeroplanes and mountain climbing! I just thought you were demonstrating a certain rigidity in your thinking when you showed no curiousity in reading the Dawkins book, which, after all, purports to discuss some fundamental questions relating to human life and existence. Why not read it and then refute what he says if you don't agree? You would then give yourself a lot more credibility as someone who is curious to discover the truth rather than someone who already thinks they know it. As I said earlier: The more you think you know, the less you know. Livia

Subject: So well put, Livia! From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 13:46:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can hardly put evolution as a subject on a par with tennis, model aeroplanes and mountain climbing! Nor can you put it on a par with the kind of self-help books Dog's so enamoured with. No, evolution stands in a class of its own. It's the single most important breakthrough in the history of mankind in terms of understanding who we are and how we got here.

Subject: Re: Leaders From: Ben Lurking To: Follower Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 12:53:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a taxpayer I have a serious problem with a foot kisser (the guy from Lockheed Martin) being allowed any kind of top security - Hopefully he has truthfully divulged his religion to the appropiate authorities. How do you describe -went to australia for foot kissing on a security clearance document? Anybody know anything about this guy? Ben

Subject: Whoa....what's 'Intellikey Labs'? From: la-ex To: Follower Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 09:34:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Intellikey? Isn't that one of m's favorite pseudo-intellectual phrases that he there around for awhile? It means something like 'the inner drive to know oneself', or something similar... What is the lab all about? Cloning little m's and devotees? Creating a better cognac? Holographic M, for global darshan?

Subject: these guys.... From: Perhaps To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 11:20:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Might be a connection. Intellikey Labs www.intellikeylabs.com/pages/about_company_page.html

Subject: ah! so they likey Intel then (nt) From: Fu Manchu To: Perhaps Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 12:05:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ah! so they likey Intel then (nt)

Subject: Suing church for coverups (NOT OT) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:58:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wonder if the thought's crossed Maharaji's mind as he reads his local news: Abuse victims in Los Angeles sue church for conspiring to hide molestation Four men who say they were molested by a priest in the largest US Catholic community sued Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony for allegedly covering up sexual abuse by clergymen for years. The lawsuits claim the cardinal and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles effectively conspired to protect priests through racketeering, negligence and fraud. The alleged victims filed two lawsuits with the Los Angeles Superior Court, claiming they were misled about the fate of priest who allegedly molested them in the 1960s while he was allowed to continue ministering. 'We would not be here today if I was not lied to in 1991 by Cardinal Mahony,' said Andy Cicchillo, one of the four. The 46-year-old, who is suing along with his brother Joseph and two unidentified men, said he outlined the alleged abuse, which he says began when he was just seven, in a 1991 letter to Mahony. But instead of removing the priest from the church as he promised to do, the cardinal instead transferred him to another ministry and took no action until earlier this year, the lawsuit claims. The priest was forced into retirement and reported to police earlier this year following a complaint against him. Mahony 'engaged in a pattern of concealment, deception, obstruction of judicial process and the protection of pedophile priests,' the plaintiffs' attorney Jeffrey Anderson said. 'And he has done that for years.' The latest court action comes as the Roman Catholic church battles to control a snowballing priestly sex abuse scandal which prompted Pope John Paul II to summon 12 of his US cardinals to the Vatican last week. The emergency meeting resulted in a much-criticized 'zero tolerance' policy to handle future, but not past, sex-abuse complaints against priests. The two new lawsuits each seek unspecified compensatory and punitive damages against the cardinal and the church as well as costs. The plaintiffs, together with a group of abuse survivors, had planned to try to personally serve the lawsuits on Mahony. But the 66-year-old cardinal was hospitalized late Sunday suffering from a blood clot in his lung following his return from Rome, the archdiocese said in a statement. He is expected to be kept there for several days, the statement said. Mahony was at the centre of a controversy earlier this year after he sacked or retired seven priests accused of child abuse -- including the man accused in Monday's lawsuits -- but refused to divulge their identities. His silent and low-key approach to the growing global scandal sparked public anger and concerns that some abuse cases were covered up. In March, Mahony apologized for the 'sinful and deplorable' actions of priests who molested children, saying that the Church and the priesthood were being 'purified.'

Subject: Re: Suing church for coverups (NOT OT) From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:08:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Thanks for your support over there. Much appreciated. I watched the report on CBS last night about this lawsuit and two of the four plaintiffs are twins. Not only did the Cardinal do nothing, he transferred the pedophile to a pediatric ward in a hospital! Cardinal Mahony continues to lie about what he knew when just like Prem Rawat has been doing for years. He claims he had zero tolerance for this behavior of priests while protecting them from prosecution. The RCC thinks it is above the law. Same as Rawat. Very sick stuff... Cynth CBS News Last Night www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/29/eveningnews/main507546.shtml

Subject: Law says 6 y.o. boy partly to blame for his abuse From: Barbara To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 20:52:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried to copy this ABC article, but I couldn't. In a brief filed in Middlesex Superior Court by Law's attorney, Law says '...the negligence of the Plaintiffs contributed to cause the injury or damages complained of...' Whew boy, these guys really know how to shoot themselves in the head big time. How can a Cardinal who played Pedophile Shuffle for years, if not decades, call a six year old boy negligent for being in the presence of the very pedophile whom Law himself planted in the boy's parish? What, pray tell, or perhaps prey tell is more apropos, is wrong here? One lawyer commented that it would be remiss of Law's lawyer to not put forth every defense available. I guess the veracity of the accusation/defense is not an issue. But, then again, the entire Church is based on a lie, so why should I be surprised. It's not a long article, and it's worth the read. Cardinal Law Blames the Victim abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/priest020429.html

Subject: This is so revealing about the RCC... From: Cynthia To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 00:45:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Barbara, It's not surprising to me that the RCC lawyers would use this tactic. I read the article. The more I think about it the more I believe that because there has been so much abuse against children by the RCC by priests and nuns over the decades and centuries that it's all about money. Their liability insurance must be astronomical by now because they've already paid out so much to victims. It's pretty pathetic when a grown man who is supposedly a 'man of God' would allow his attorneys to blame an innocent 6 year old boy. There is some good that comes from all of this scandal about the church. That is that grown men are now no longer ashamed to admit they were sexually abused as boys and are taking action. When I first got involved in helping adults who were sexually abused as children it mostly involved incest committed against women. Men have had a long and difficult struggle to get to this point of saying 'enough is enough.' It's very good that men are able to overcome their shame and take action. And get so much publicity. This further validates that all child sexual abuse is not the fault of the child whether they were a boy or a girl at the time. How are you? I've missed your posts here. Cynthia

Subject: The bottom line is the bottom line From: Barbara To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 03:34:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia: About ten or so years ago, I read in the Los Angeles Daily Journal (the legal newspaper) that the RCC had been estimated to have spent at least $300 million in payouts to its victims. It was difficult to know the exact figure because the terms of those settlements included confidentiality agreements, which of course, is what allowed these henious clerics to continue molesting without them having to hit the brakes for a nanosecond. These priests, bishops and cardinals are Princes of Darkness masquerading as Men of God (what else is new?). I can't imagine any insurance company covering them at all, and now with evidence being revealed that the bishops and cardinals were complicit in the abuse and subsequent coverups, I can only hope that the insurance companies refuse to pay out damages, which puts the burden squarely on the Church itself. They're like maggots who feed on the wounds of the victims they create, and I do hope that the demise of the RCC is imminment (a girl can hope, can't she?), and if Cardinal Law's defense is indicative of the Church's intentions, then they are accelerating that very demise. Also, I agree with you about the men finally being able to come forward without shame being attached to them for doing so. As you well know, as I do, the RCC and other abusers know how to create, use and manipulate shame to maintain the silence of their victims, thereby creating the conditions for the abusers to perpetuate their abuse and the suffering of their victims. I'm doing well, and thanks for asking. You sound well also. Take care.

Subject: Re: The bottom line is the bottom line From: PatC To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 04:01:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They're self-insured, Barbara. I know - I was in the belly of the beast for two years. This is really disgusting blaming a six year old kid but I am not surprised. Nearly fifty years ago, when I was one of their victims in boarding school, it was not talked about. I saw it happen with a nine year old being blamed for ''seducing'' a priest and his parents went along with it and punished the kid for being ''dirty.'' He became an alcoholic and died when he was thirty-two - alone and living in a roach motel. I think, once we've got the Rawat cult shut down, I'll go after the RCC. They better start selling all that gold-embroidered drag.

Subject: That was luvverly, Nonymouse - LATWTTB From: Prem channelled thru PatC To: Patsy Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 14:11:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LATWTTB = laughing all the way to the bank.

Subject: The first half of the Leaders article From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:35:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the first half of the Leaders Magazine article about Maharaji. Although the cult tried to make the text impossible to copy on Rawat's new web site, they did a bad job. But I wonder, does anyone have the second half? I'd love to hear how he answered that last question, let alone the rest of the interview which, as I said before, is the most vacuous thing I've ever read (next to, perhaps, a jehova's witness tract which explains who God is by saying he's a good God or something.) People from different civilizations with differing aspirations have sought happiness through a wide variety of means. The exhortation “Know thyself ” has echoed through the ages. In almost all cultures, people have been told that the happiness they seek lies within themselves. Despite the simplicity of this message, the pursuit of inner happiness has proved elusive for most. Prem Rawat – also known as Maharaji, a title given to him in India where he began his work – maintains that having a fulfilling life is actually a birthright. He offers a specific means to make this hope a reality. He calls it self-knowledge, which he describes both as an inner discipline and a state of being that can be experienced by anyone with a sincere interest. “What I offer to people is not just talk,” he says, “but a way to go inside and savor the beauty that is within. I don’t create the beauty. It is not imagination. It does not come from ideas. It is within you. If it were not for the gift of self-knowledge, a practical way to be able to connect with that feeling inside, all my words would be empty.” Maharaji has worked with men and women on every continent, young and old, millionaires and those of lesser means, intellectuals and the uneducated. It does not seem to matter. As you speak with him, it becomes evident that he has a unique ability to speak simply of the most profound. It is his courage to keep his message simple that enables him to touch and be understood by such diverse audiences. With sparkling humor and unexpected insights, Maharaji has a rare gift for inspiring people to see life with a fresh perspective and to find within themselves a sense of personal freedom, regardless of circumstance. Whether people pursue self-knowledge or not, they are almost always delighted and enriched by listening to his discourses. Born in a small city in the Himalayan foothills of India, he grew up in a family where self-knowledge was a lifelong passion. From an early age, he traveled with his father throughout India, listening to his discourses on inner peace and contentment. Though he was only eight at the time of his father’s death, Maharaji embraced his work and soon began attracting audiences in the thousands. At the request of various Westerners, Maharaji traveled to London in 1971 when he was 13. After speaking engagements in Europe, he traveled to the United States with invitations to speak in several cities. During the ’70s, many in the United States and Western Europe linked him and his message with their fascination with Indian culture and Eastern philosophy. As he relates in the following interview, Maharaji realized early on that his teachings applied to all people, regardless of culture or belief. By 1974, Maharaji had settled in the United States but continued to tour and speak to audiences around the world. His message has remained consistent over time and is best summed up by his assertion, “What you are looking for is already within you, and I can show you how to get in touch with it.” In 1971, he told a Glastonbury, England, audience: “Isaac Newton only discovered the law of gravity; he did not invent it. In the same way, this knowledge is within you. I can only show you how to experience it for yourself so that your heart can be satisfied.” Those who have been exposed to self-knowledge have described it as a means to reconcile the often-conflicting aspirations of heart and mind and as a pathway to their own personal freedom. [See inserts.] For the last 30 years, Maharaji has continuously traveled to all six major continents, addressing millions who came to listen to him as a preeminent guide to achieving inner contentment and personal happiness. While he still maintains a grueling pace lecturing, he also reaches people via the Internet and through videotapes of his speaking engagements. People who practice self-knowledge say that it is precious, and yet Maharaji does not charge for it. When asked why, he explains that he has never seen helping people gain self-knowledge as a commercial undertaking. Far from “selling” selfknowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone. He cautions that people must choose it freely, be ready for it, and pursue it without obligation. “This is not for sale,” he explains. “It is a gift, in the truest tradition of a gift.” His work is supported entirely by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. Over the years, Maharaji appears to have become more passionate about his work. Despite the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge, he seems indifferent to fame and has avoided the celebrity circuit frequented by so many others who seek to gain adherents. Others who represent themselves as “self-help” gurus tend to achieve popularity by focusing on what people could have or do to achieve external success. Maharaji makes it clear that self-knowledge will not make you a movie star or a CEO, nor will it make you rich or improve your golf game. It may, however, bring you the fulfillment that these things alone cannot provide. We were particularly pleased to have the opportunity to conduct what is perhaps the first media interview with Ma- haraji since the mid-’70s. Unfamiliar until recently with his work or his thinking, we found his comments on the meaning of success and happiness provocative and were impressed by the story of the development of his global work. How do you define success? The way I see it, if you don’t feel successful within yourself, then it doesn’t matter how successful you are on the outside. There is always going to be a distinction between the two. Even if you are the CEO of a big corporation, you have to come home, and what happens then? You may have a big office, a lot of power, and a range of awards, but when you come home, you’re just yourself. You need to be a success there, too. Ultimately, you can be exceedingly wealthy and still be happy and satisfied, or not have a penny to your name and be equally fulfilled. Once you draw the distinction between you and everything else, it’s very easy to see that outward success is not what really matters. Is it difficult to convince people that inner success is as important as success on the outside? It’s not really a question of convincing them. Once you accept that success begins with you, everything else becomes secondary. People have to experience this fundamental shift for themselves and then, rich or poor, it’s very easy for them to start grasping the principles of selfknowledge. Do you see self-knowledge as essential to achieving success, or is it more a question of simply adding value to people’s lives? Well, you can look at it both ways. Whatever you are trying to pursue, selfknowledge will augment your chances of true success. And if a person is just trying to feel good within, then self-knowledge will definitely help. I can’t claim that it will make a person successful in business, nor that it has any particular health benefits. Some people say so, but I dispute that. What I do believe is that the journey toward joy, contentment, inner peace, or whatever it is you are pursuing begins with you. So what exactly does self-knowledge change in a person? I don’t say that knowledge will bring outward changes in personality. It may, but it may not. There are no guarantees. But self-knowledge will bring a fundamental change within you. There will be a shift, and you will find peace, joy, and harmony; and most importantly, you will find yourself – the real self. It’s as if you were in a boat being taken up and down by all the waves. Then, suddenly, the boat just takes off and glides on smooth, calm air. You stop being subjected to all the ups and downs that continue to happen. If you are able to find peace within yourself, then maybe you will become a better person, and that could make a difference to everything else in your life. But that will always be up to you. What does “Maharaji” mean, and why do so many people acknowledge you as the leader in the field of selfknowledge? Maharaji is a title given to someone who shows people a way to a fulfilled and centered existence. Why do many consider me a leader in the field of self-knowledge? It is not for me to say. I simply make an offer to people who are interested in fulfillment. When those who accept what I offer find that it satisfies them, they don’t have to look elsewhere. I have been doing this for a long time, since I was very, very young. And during the last 30 years, we have pioneered many ways of reaching people around the world, breaking down many of the boundaries of culture, language, and so many other kinds of conditioning that tend to trap or limit people in society. It has all been a remarkable adventure, beyond what I ever could have imagined from its simple and humble beginnings in India. The basis of my message is that fulfillment must always begin with you. Rather than tell people, “Look at all the possibilities the world offers, and see what you can achieve to be successful,” I simply say that I can show you a way to find fulfillment within yourself. You were speaking to audiences of hundreds of thousands at the age of eight. How did you find yourself in that type of situation at so young an age? I really feel it is a gift. I can’t imagine how all of this would have been possible otherwise. It’s a wonderful opportunity to come from the heart and to address the very simple nature of us all. At that young age, did you have any idea that you would dedicate your life to this type of work? Well, at that age, I could not possibly have known the consequences of what I was doing. I was too young. In those days, I would get up before groups and talk, and my father would support me in that. I would talk and enjoy it and that was it. After a time, I had the opportunity to come to the West, and from that point the potential of my work really began to grow. But in those early years, it was difficult to contemplate what the world was. I was living in India, and my world was very, very small. What were your expectations about how self-knowledge would be received when you came to the West in 1971? How did you build your work since then? When I first came to the West, there was a lot of interest in anything that originated in India, and what I was presenting was initially perceived as Indian. However, when I saw that this placed a limit on how much my work could grow, things really started to change for me. I saw that my message was indeed a global one, not one restricted to a particular group of people. I think we have seen such a lot of growth over the last 30 years because I had the foresight to adapt my message for people everywhere. How do you define self-knowledge, and how is it different from other forms of introspection? [To be continued?]

Subject: Re: The first half of the Leaders article From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 06:50:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry life's too short to read all that bollocks. But extremely glad to learn (having forgotten) that Issac Newton discovered gravity and did not invent it. Where does he get all this profound claptrap? 'All through the ages people have sought happiness' Well bugger me (and I don't mean that litterally) Do people smile when they're happy? The guy ought to tell us. Anyway I'm only posting to tell you the sun rises inthe east, with love.

Subject: What's this magazine on my desk? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 18:00:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are a few comments re this silly article. I'm sure the second half, if we ever see it, will have all the real content in it. It must, because this part sure doesn't. I think I start off as Jim and turn into some CEO somewhere or other. People from different civilizations with differing aspirations have sought happiness through a wide variety of means. The exhortation “Know thyself ” has echoed through the ages. In almost all cultures, people have been told that the happiness they seek lies within themselves. Despite the simplicity of this message, the pursuit of inner happiness has proved elusive for most. Okay, stop the presses right there. Am I reading this correctly? Are we not talking about the biggest, most fundamental goal of all, happiness? Yes, I think we are. So this is big, big stuff, then, no? Like ground-shaking, stop-the-press headline-making, holy-cow-Martha-there's-a-little-kid-at-the door-with-that-darn-Superman-comic-I-spent-my-whole-life-looking-for-and-plum-almost-gave-up-on-oh-say-at-least-thirty-years-ago-Martha-I've-got-tears-running-down-my-cheeks-and-I-might-need-a-new-Depends-Martha big, right? Okay, just checking. I just wanted to be sure we're on the same page here. This is no small cracking-the-human-genome thingamujigger. No mere peace in the middle east. This is the SECRET OF HAPPINESS! Alright! Prem Rawat – also known as Maharaji, a title given to him in India where he began his work – maintains that having a fulfilling life is actually a birthright. He offers a specific means to make this hope a reality. He calls it self-knowledge, which he describes both as an inner discipline and a state of being that can be experienced by anyone with a sincere interest. “What I offer to people is not just talk,” he says, “but a way to go inside and savor the beauty that is within. I don’t create the beauty. It is not imagination. It does not come from ideas. It is within you. If it were not for the gift of self-knowledge, a practical way to be able to connect with that feeling inside, all my words would be empty.” Well, seeing as we know your words couldn't possibly be empty, there must be something to this. But note how right off the bat they throw this litmus test of 'sincerity' down at your feet like a gauntlet. But what IS this stuff anyway? The Secret of Happiness is a discipline? A State of Being? And WHO, for god's sake, is this guy I'm starting to read about? Sharon, would you please hold on my calls. No, I know but listen, I've just found something amazing here and I need to concentrate. That's right, even Toykyo. Tell them to call back in an hour. I've GOT to read this .... Maharaji has worked with men and women on every continent, young and old, millionaires and those of lesser means, intellectuals and the uneducated. It does not seem to matter. Well, I don't know what this is but whatever it is the guy seems to be willing to work with just about anyone. Hell, even us millionaires. Hell, this is amazing! As you speak with him, it becomes evident that he has a unique ability to speak simply of the most profound. It is his courage to keep his message simple that enables him to touch and be understood by such diverse audiences. With sparkling humor and unexpected insights, Maharaji has a rare gift for inspiring people to see life with a fresh perspective and to find within themselves a sense of personal freedom, regardless of circumstance. What the hell IS this shit? First this article starts talking about the Secret of Happiness and I'm in. But what's THIS now? his 'unique ability to speak simply of the most profound'? His 'courage to keep the message simple'? COURAGE? His 'rare gift'? 'Inspiring people to see life with a fresh perspective'? This guy sounds like some sort of damn cult leader! What IS this shit? What magazine am I reading? Sharon, where'd this Leaders Magazine come from? It wasn't dropped off by some of them Hare Krishna guys or anything, was it? No, I'm just checking. Well, it's got ... um, never mind. Oh they did? Why didn't you put the call through? Oh I did? Oh yeah, that's right. Shit! Well, if they call back, yes I'll take it. Of course I will. Whether people pursue self-knowledge or not, they are almost always delighted and enriched by listening to his discourses. Okay, this is some sort of weird cult thing. I can see that now. But what's it doing in this magazine here? Funny. Hm, the guy looks like that Moon guy a bit. Freaky. He looks like a cross between that Moon guy and Chairman Mao. Hm, wonder whatever happened to Stacey's cousin ... what was his name? Got into that guru thing. This couldn't be the same guy, could it!? Holy cow, I think it is! What the hell ..... Born in a small city in the Himalayan foothills of India, he grew up in a family where self-knowledge was a lifelong passion. Oh yeah, I remember. The kid was some sort of God or something. His father was in the business is what I recall. Funny how they make that seem like a family hobby or something. This article's obviously some sort of slick, whitewash. I remember. We went with the kid to one of his cult meetings. The guru was promising world peace is what I remember. They were all glassy eyed, all of them. Stacey's cousin -- Robert! -- yeah, Robert, was such a lost kid. Wonder what ever happened to him. God, I'd forgotten all about this cult guy. From an early age, he traveled with his father throughout India, listening to his discourses on inner peace and contentment. Though he was only eight at the time of his father’s death, Maharaji embraced his work and soon began attracting audiences in the thousands. Now this is weird. They're making it seem like this was just some sort of two generation family vaudeville routine. But 'Secret of Happiness'? I dunno about this. It's obviously some sort of weird cult thing. You listen to the guy with reverence and hope that you can fool yourself into thinking that you 'got it'. Wonder what ever did happen to Robert. Stacey? Hi honey. Nothing. No, I'm at the office. Listen, you won't believe this but I got this throw-away business magazine, it's called Leaders something, and I'm leafing through it and, guess what? Remember that cult your cousin was in? What was it called? Yeah, that's it! Well, anyway, they've got this article in this business magazine all about this cult guy. Yeah, the Maharishi something. No, let me look, no it's the Maharaj Ji Ji, I think. Anyway, he's still around I guess and somehow he's advertising in this thing. Strange eh? Yeah, I'll bring it home, you can look at it. So what ever happened with your cousin anyway? Australia? Really, when? What's he doing there? Does he talk with Jody at all? God, what he put those guys through with all that cult shit! Okay, yeah, I know. No, I'll be back in time. Don't worry, we're not expected before 8. Fred and Gina aren't showing up 'til then, I know that. Anyway, I'll see you then. What? The red one. Wear the red one. You look beautiful in that. Okay, see you honey. I want to get back to this cult article. See how they try to suck me in or something. Stacey, if I joined a cult would you still love me? Ha, very funny. Okay, see you later. At the request of various Westerners, Maharaji traveled to London in 1971 when he was 13. After speaking engagements in Europe, he traveled to the United States with invitations to speak in several cities. During the ’70s, many in the United States and Western Europe linked him and his message with their fascination with Indian culture and Eastern philosophy. As he relates in the following interview, Maharaji realized early on that his teachings applied to all people, regardless of culture or belief. Don't any of these old sixties guru's take responsibility for their shit? I remember this guy now. He was the Lord of the Universe or something, wasn't he? Hey, bud, no one was putting a gun to your head. God, wasn't there something about his family? By 1974, Maharaji had settled in the United States but continued to tour and speak to audiences around the world. His message has remained consistent over time and is best summed up by his assertion, “What you are looking for is already within you, and I can show you how to get in touch with it.” In 1971, he told a Glastonbury, England, audience: “Isaac Newton only discovered the law of gravity; he did not invent it. In the same way, this knowledge is within you. I can only show you how to experience it for yourself so that your heart can be satisfied.” Those who have been exposed to self-knowledge have described it as a means to reconcile the often-conflicting aspirations of heart and mind and as a pathway to their own personal freedom. [See inserts.] Hm, I remember when Robert came to see us that weekend. You couldn't talk to the guy. His eyes were as glassy as Barbies and no matter what I said he just kept bringing up this guru thing. Hell, the kid wouldn't even let me watch the news without sounding like the Voice of the Doom talking about how fucked everyone was. Yeah, well if were so fucked why did we open our doors to him and all that? Hey, didn't we take him out to dinner at that place, what was it called? Doya's I think? And still he couldn't stop talking about that fucking guru. Self-knowledge my ass! And look at this guy now! Hm, he sure got ugly, didn't he? I kind of remember that he wasn't the prettiest thing in the first place but he was ... I don't know, young? A little cute or something? Now he's got this nasty fake smile. Yech! For the last 30 years, Maharaji has continuously traveled to all six major continents, addressing millions who came to listen to him as a preeminent guide to achieving inner contentment and personal happiness. While he still maintains a grueling pace lecturing, he also reaches people via the Internet and through videotapes of his speaking engagements. How the HELL did this get into this magazine is what I want to know? I've got to call these guys. This is amazing. They must have one of these cult guys on staff or something. What a crock! People who practice self-knowledge say that it is precious, and yet Maharaji does not charge for it. When asked why, he explains that he has never seen helping people gain self-knowledge as a commercial undertaking. Far from “selling” selfknowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone. What? Is this like a medical disclaimer? People with diabetes or certain heart conditions ... I remember now. There were these secret techniques I think. Well I know how these things work. Of course they don't charge for it. They're getting YOU in their pocket, why do they need your wallet? If you've got it on you, it goes into the pocket automatically. Is there anyone who can't see through this shit? I guess there must be.... He cautions that people must choose it freely, be ready for it, and pursue it without obligation. “This is not for sale,” he explains. “It is a gift, in the truest tradition of a gift.” His work is supported entirely by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. But, clearly, if I didn't already know what this garbage was through that whole thing with Robert and the pain he put his mother through, I still wouldn't have a CLUE what this is supposed to be. Instead, all these buzzwords talking about being 'ready' and stuff. But then that's how these cults work, isn't it? I can't believe this got published, though. Let's see what else is here. Over the years, Maharaji appears to have become more passionate about his work. Despite the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge, he seems indifferent to fame and has avoided the celebrity circuit frequented by so many others who seek to gain adherents. Others who represent themselves as “self-help” gurus tend to achieve popularity by focusing on what people could have or do to achieve external success. Hey, what is this? Isn't this the guru that courted the entire world's attention, just begging them to stop everything they were doing, wherever, however, and ask who this guy was? Robert gave us that book, I recall, Who is Guru Maharishi?. This guy was the biggest publicity hound I've ever seen. This article's amazing! Stacey's gonna flip! Maharaji makes it clear that self-knowledge will not make you a movie star or a CEO, nor will it make you rich or improve your golf game. It may, however, bring you the fulfillment that these things alone cannot provide. Well, seeing as I'm already a CEO and ain't really hurting money-wise, he can relax there. A bit disappointed about the golf game, though. Oh if only he had an Inner Game for me to work on .... naw, I remember that book. Just more of that stupid self-help stuff. Come to think of it, didn't the guy who wrote that have a guru too? God, I bet you can get that book pretty cheap these days. This really takes me back, this shit. Okay, let's see what else he's got going on here. We were particularly pleased to have the opportunity to conduct what is perhaps the first media interview with Ma- haraji since the mid-’70s. Unfamiliar until recently with his work or his thinking, we found his comments on the meaning of success and happiness provocative and were impressed by the story of the development of his global work. Story? What story? What kind of magazine is this? I didn't read any story. What are they talking about? Well, okay, let's see what this guru guy has to say for himself now. This should be good. How do you define success? The way I see it, if you don’t feel successful within yourself, then it doesn’t matter how successful you are on the outside. There is always going to be a distinction between the two. Even if you are the CEO of a big corporation, you have to come home, and what happens then? You may have a big office, a lot of power, and a range of awards, but when you come home, you’re just yourself. You need to be a success there, too. Ultimately, you can be exceedingly wealthy and still be happy and satisfied, or not have a penny to your name and be equally fulfilled. Once you draw the distinction between you and everything else, it’s very easy to see that outward success is not what really matters. Okay, now really, what kind of bullshit answer is that? Success is not just having material rewards? That's it? Hey, Yoda, relax. You got nothing to worry about, bud. This guy is NO threat whatsoever. An answer like that is almost as inane as what that Deepak Cobra guy says. Mind you, he's gotten loaded on this pablum. Hm, maybe he actually MEANS to seem so empty and facile. Wow, if that's the case.... Is it difficult to convince people that inner success is as important as success on the outside? It’s not really a question of convincing them. Once you accept that success begins with you, everything else becomes secondary. People have to experience this fundamental shift for themselves and then, rich or poor, it’s very easy for them to start grasping the principles of selfknowledge. Now that's simply ridiculous. I've never met a single person, ever, anywhere, who's ever argued that inner success', however they define it, wasn't as important as any other kind. Who the hell is asking these dumb ass questions? This is pissing me off. Do you see self-knowledge as essential to achieving success, or is it more a question of simply adding value to people’s lives? Well, you can look at it both ways. Whatever you are trying to pursue, selfknowledge will augment your chances of true success. And if a person is just trying to feel good within, then self-knowledge will definitely help. I can’t claim that it will make a person successful in business, nor that it has any particular health benefits. Some people say so, but I dispute that. What I do believe is that the journey toward joy, contentment, inner peace, or whatever it is you are pursuing begins with you. This is just like one those infomercials Stacey loves to watch. God, what's going on with this guy? He actually has people taking him seriously? What about that whole thing in Houston, I think it was? I thought he was gone, laughed out of anywhere and everywhere. We should call Jody. So what exactly does self-knowledge change in a person? I don’t say that knowledge will bring outward changes in personality. It may, but it may not. There are no guarantees. But self-knowledge will bring a fundamental change within you. There will be a shift, and you will find peace, joy, and harmony; and most importantly, you will find yourself – the real self. It’s as if you were in a boat being taken up and down by all the waves. Then, suddenly, the boat just takes off and glides on smooth, calm air. You stop being subjected to all the ups and downs that continue to happen. If you are able to find peace within yourself, then maybe you will become a better person, and that could make a difference to everything else in your life. But that will always be up to you. Outward change in personality? Did you SEE what it did to our Robert there? The guy was a fuckin' zombie for christ's sake! This is amazing, absolutely amazing. Who's in next month's issue? The Falun Gong guy? I heard he made millions and is living in New York while his devotees die martyrs in Chinese jails. Hm, maybe they should call it CULT Leaders Magazine. I can't believe this ... What does “Maharaji” mean, and why do so many people acknowledge you as the leader in the field of selfknowledge? Maharaji is a title given to someone who shows people a way to a fulfilled and centered existence. Why do many consider me a leader in the field of self-knowledge? It is not for me to say. I simply make an offer to people who are interested in fulfillment. When those who accept what I offer find that it satisfies them, they don’t have to look elsewhere. I have been doing this for a long time, since I was very, very young. And during the last 30 years, we have pioneered many ways of reaching people around the world, breaking down many of the boundaries of culture, language, and so many other kinds of conditioning that tend to trap or limit people in society. It has all been a remarkable adventure, beyond what I ever could have imagined from its simple and humble beginnings in India. 'Breaking down the barriers' is right, dude! You turned Robert into a jellyfish from what I recall. He was a pretty good kid too, I remember. Had a certain strength to him. I didn't see any of that when you got your paws on him, Mr. Maharaji or whatever you call yourself. The basis of my message is that fulfillment must always begin with you. Rather than tell people, “Look at all the possibilities the world offers, and see what you can achieve to be successful,” I simply say that I can show you a way to find fulfillment within yourself. Surely anyone reading this will see that this article has not said a single thing except this guy has a special way of 'touching' you if you listen to him 'sincerely' and that, somehow, you get this 'self knowledge' thing, which may or may not be for everyone and which may or may not change your personality. But what the hell IS it? This is like the emptiest thing I've ever read. You were speaking to audiences of hundreds of thousands at the age of eight. How did you find yourself in that type of situation at so young an age? Now, that's a good question! What's he gonna say? His father left him the keys to the car and he thought he'd take it out for a spin? I mean, how else can he explain how he became this little god guy so young? I really feel it is a gift. I can’t imagine how all of this would have been possible otherwise. It’s a wonderful opportunity to come from the heart and to address the very simple nature of us all. Holy shit! He didn't answer that one at ALL! Too funny, in a way, isn't it? We HAVE to call Jody. At that young age, did you have any idea that you would dedicate your life to this type of work? Well, at that age, I could not possibly have known the consequences of what I was doing. I was too young. In those days, I would get up before groups and talk, and my father would support me in that. I would talk and enjoy it and that was it. After a time, I had the opportunity to come to the West, and from that point the potential of my work really began to grow. But in those early years, it was difficult to contemplate what the world was. I was living in India, and my world was very, very small. Hm, I remember in that book, wasn't he already promising to bring peace to the whole damn world before he even left India? God, I wonder if we still have that thing. I know we had a whole bunch of books we never unpacked. I've got to look. But, yeah, I'm sure this guy was already on his big Saviour thing long before he ever left Delhi or wherever he was. This is just bullshit. Hm, I wonder, there must be some of his former followers out there too, huh? They must flip when they see this kind of revisionist shit. I am and I wasn't even in the thing! What were your expectations about how self-knowledge would be received when you came to the West in 1971? How did you build your work since then? When I first came to the West, there was a lot of interest in anything that originated in India, and what I was presenting was initially perceived as Indian. However, when I saw that this placed a limit on how much my work could grow, things really started to change for me. I saw that my message was indeed a global one, not one restricted to a particular group of people. I think we have seen such a lot of growth over the last 30 years because I had the foresight to adapt my message for people everywhere. I have to find that book. I KNOW this guy was on this whole I'm god-and-you-better-listen trip. What a liar! How do you define self-knowledge, and how is it different from other forms of introspection? Hey, where's the rest of the article? Sharon, you didn't take a few pages out of this magazine here, did you?

Subject: *****BEST OF***** From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 19:47:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, That's one of the funniest piece of satire I've ever read. This one must go into the Best of pages... Thanks so much Jim a real laugh out loud is just the best. Cynth

Subject: If not BEST, then certainly FUNNIEST [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 21:16:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What's this magazine on my desk? From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 17:42:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are amazing, Jim. I haven't laughed this hard for a long time. Thank you much!

Subject: Brilliant piece of satire [nt] From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 11:37:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Part 2 From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 20:29:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, A friend of mine has a copy. I'll have them send you a copy. What address should it be sent to?

Subject: Re: Part 2 From: Marianne To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 22:36:09 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Inside Edition: I would also like a copy. Please email me. Thanks, Marianne

Subject: Bilge. Impossible to read. From: Bryn To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 08:00:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this what the ruling elite consume in their leisure reading? Terrifying! Thanks for posting it. Yech Bryn

Subject: But where the hell's part 2? From: Jim To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 16:09:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just hanging on the edge of my seat for M's answer to that last question in the preview, what is self-knowledge anyway? And of course all the wit and wisdom that follows. Doesn't anyone have a copy yet?

Subject: Re: But where the hell's part 2? From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 05:10:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hullo Jim Its rather odd, is it not, that the editor who promised you a copy, has failed to deliver... to the point where you get the feeling that they dont want ANY attention lavished on their high quality investigative journalism by the likes of us. I reckon (IF they dont just view each edition as water under the bridge, and the interview as a paying stocking-filler between adverts) they would be pretty embarrassed about it. I mean what sort of World-Leader mag writes a glowing tribute to a Cult leader without doing ANY investigation ????# Make Darius send you a copy. Give barry his email address. He will crack, eventually.

Subject: Re: But where the hell's part 2? From: Bai Ji To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 19:23:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Part Two is available for a fee according to the prf. The full article was on sale at Amaroo for $19.00 Aud during the event.

Subject: Re: Bilge. Impossible to read. From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 15:35:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this what the ruling elite consume in their leisure reading? Terrifying! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - Of course they don't.This mag.is junkmail for parvenues. It'd be interesting to know how it's financed ; on the other hand maybe not,life's too short to stuff a mushroom. When the Bollixshwar gets favourable covereage in Time / Newsweek / The Economist / The Spectator / The New Statesman / Paris Match / il Giornale / add to the list, it's a very long one......that'll be the time to emigrate to another planet. Don't go down the conspiracy road,it's a dead end. All the best : Pat Dorrity , Stratford-upon-Avon , England.

Subject: Conspiracy road? From: Bryn To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 05:55:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat Sir! Bless you sir, I aint no mug. If anything I'm too ironic for my own good. Somewhere in the picture someone is selling the idea that this twisted bumf language actually IS what some leader class wants to consume. And they do it on the expectation, presumably economically justified, that it is a credible picture of the world situation to put about. It's terrifying at any level imo. Yes stuff those mushrooms. All the best from Bryn in the venerable city of York England

Subject: Irony From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 14:56:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,it's difficult to detect in cyberspace. I suppose I've just become hypersensitive to possible signs of lunacy. Sorry.

Subject: This part really , really cracks me up!!! From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 21:32:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q: 'What does 'Maharaji' mean'? A: 'Maharaji' is a title given to someone who shows people a way to a fulfilled and centered existence.' Isn't it funny how the titles, along with the claims change, as the cult shrinks, and M realizes how little interest there really is in this silly little personality cult? I always thought that 'Maharaji' meant 'greatest king'.....come to think of it, wasn't Pay Pal going to rule the Earth, as no King had ever before? And wasn't he also the 'Lord of the Universe'? And wasn't Millenium '73 the 'most holy and significant event in the history of humanity'? And of course it was the kickoff for 1000 years of pefect peace, right? Oh well, maybe I just imagined those things....or maybe they were just 'concepts' I had gotten from somewhere, certainly not from M.... At least I now know what 'Maharaji' means...isn't it all so 'fulfilling and centered'?

Subject: Re: This part really , really cracks me up!!! From: Bolly Shri To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 07:07:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's true he did say it was 1000years of peace. The way I see it is time flies when you're having fun. We think he said it 30 years ago , but hey who knows, didn't he tell us time was a concept? You think he might have been bullshitting , don't you?

Subject: Revisionist drivel and bilge From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 21:15:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first came to the West, there was a lot of interest in anything that originated in India, and what I was presenting was initially perceived as Indian. However, when I saw that this placed a limit on how much my work could grow, things really started to change for me. I saw that my message was indeed a global one, not one restricted to a particular group of people. I think we have seen such a lot of growth over the last 30 years because I had the foresight to adapt my message for people everywhere. !!! Shite or what from Mr Prat. (Gawd, I can't stand much more of this)

Subject: Talk about hedging your bets! From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 20:45:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don’t say that knowledge will bring outward changes in personality. It may, but it may not. There are no guarantees. But self-knowledge will bring a fundamental change within you. There will be a shift, and you will find peace, joy, and harmony; and most importantly, you will find yourself – the real self. It’s as if you were in a boat being taken up and down by all the waves. Then, suddenly, the boat just takes off and glides on smooth, calm air. You stop being subjected to all the ups and downs that continue to happen. If you are able to find peace within yourself, then maybe you will become a better person, and that could make a difference to everything else in your life. But that will always be up to you. Sorry, but I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that boats were not designed to fly. Oh, why the hell am I even bothering to deconstruct this utter bollocks!

Subject: Journo is an effing premie.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 20:31:29 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: No way would my late father (a real journalist) in a million years have written a paragraph like the one that follows, unless he had joined a mad cult (there but for the grace): Maharaji has worked with men and women on every continent, young and old, millionaires and those of lesser means, intellectuals and the uneducated. It does not seem to matter. As you speak with him, it becomes evident that he has a unique ability to speak simply of the most profound. It is his courage to keep his message simple that enables him to touch and be understood by such diverse audiences. With sparkling humor and unexpected insights, Maharaji has a rare gift for inspiring people to see life with a fresh perspective and to find within themselves a sense of personal freedom, regardless of circumstance. Whether people pursue self-knowledge or not, they are almost always delighted and enriched by listening to his discourses. What I find delightfully intriguing in all this is the 'almost' (tenth to last word of selected extract). Could this be some kind of peasant's uprising? DR getting uppity at the Amaroo picnic or something.. I mean 'almost', fer Christ's sake. Do you have any idea who you are talking about? Maybe the guy isn't a premie, after all. Or not only is the universe strange but - according to some astrophysicists - stranger than we could ever imagine. They're probably right, or something..

Subject: I dont think they have Journos From: Loaf To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 09:42:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They might have 'account managers' and editors and advertising people, but journalism + leaders do NOT go together. Its clearly a paid for advert masquerading as a critical interview. If it does get forwarded by the Prem rawat Foundation to the IRS as proof of status or supporting evidence,lets also forward our comments about the paper and its credibility (none)

Subject: I dont think they have Journos From: Loaf To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 09:42:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They might have 'account managers' and editors and advertising people, but journalism + leaders do NOT go together. Its clearly a paid for advert masquerading as a critical interview. If it does get forwarded to the IRS as proof of status or supporting eidence,lets also forward our comments about the paper and its credibility (none)

Subject: Knowledge is a Black Hole From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 21:05:44 (EDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Maybe the guy isn't a premie, after all. Or not only is the universe strange but - according to some astrophysicists - stranger than we could ever imagine. They're probably right, or something.. Well yes, too true. I once knew a Frenchman... and he was the first non-premie that I 'revealed' the techniques to. He knew someone who had just 'got Knowledge'. His take on this person was as follows: 'She used to be a strong person... then she got 'Knowledge', and since then has had a big hole in her....' Black Hole, I reckon.

Subject: Prem & Isaac From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:18:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: “Isaac Newton only discovered the law of gravity; he did not invent it. In the same way, this knowledge is within you. I can only show you how to experience it for yourself so that your heart can be satisfied.” Yeah, lazy old Isaac just happened to see an apple fall off a tree.He never spent his whole life using his brain,experimenting,thinking,deducing....he just 'discovered' the law of gravity.Who did he think he was? It's not like he invented it or anything. Prem on the other hand(with the help of his saddhu Dad) came up with this: Poke your eyes, stick your tongue back,put your fingers in your ears and most importantly....don't forget to breathe. Also, get on a stage and waffle away with a load of strict Hindu mumbo jumbo.....and as time goes on and you get a US passport...continue waffling but include any ole crap that you can think of. Always remember, though, to spout the same old simplistic bullshit but add pauses, voice levels....any effect to make you sound wiser than you are.Before all this though, make sure there's some relevant warm up music , slow mo vids of swans, clouds, people lining up to kiss your feet....all that sort of thing. Sure beats discovering the law of gravity ....and a whole lot more profitable too.With the tool of self-knowledge you get to own land in OZ (with a restaraunt your daughter can own and run), yachts, planes, houses all over the place....AND most importantly, the respect, adulation and worship you most certainly deserve. Poor lazy Isaac....clueless. -Dermot

Subject: Re: Prem & Isaac From: Bolly Shri To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 07:19:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does his daughter own a restaurant? Do you suppose she would like a recipe much favoured in 70s ashrams? Take all the left over rice and dahl, add a little humility, do the breathing thing, very important that. Slosh it together with some flour and maybe a bit of lurrve, stick it in the oven and stick your head under a blanket, This was one of the cheapest and most nutritious meals created in those loving houses. M obviously thought it was wonderfull and in his generousity allowed the premies to eat it all, while he poor lamb had to eat ion worldly restaurants.

Subject: Re: Prem & Isaac From: Moley To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 21:27:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Obviously no contest there!!!! LOLOL. Who needs the Law of Gravity when you can have boats taking off in mid-air, swans in hot pursuit etc (cue Andrew Lloyd Weber).

Subject: Re: The first half of the Leaders article From: Thorin To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:12:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, thanks for putting this up. Three particular excepts are particularly telling (chilling even). During the ’70s, many in the United States and Western Europe linked him and his message with their fascination with Indian culture and Eastern philosophy This is obviously a sop to all those Sari wearing gopis that infiltrated his mission in the early days. A similar tactic was employed in the Passages Video. No acklowdgement is given that Maharaji himself perpetuated this thinking for example by wearing Krishna outfits and permitting his followers to kiss his feet. By keep reiterating this point of how others projected this hindi thing on him, Maharaji hopes that anyone now coming to self-knowledge will place this in its incorrect perspective. As he relates in the following interview, Maharaji realized early on that his teachings applied to all people, regardless of culture or belief. and linked to this, but placed elsewhere: Far from “selling” selfknowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone. So we have an apparent contradiction here. Self-knowledge is for all, but then again is not. Presumably this is simply a set-up to allow for the possibility that during the aspirant process many will fail the Charanand-Belkis subjective tests. Tests, that we know, include the ability for aspirants to feel lifelong gratitude to the Master. So all in all a monkey trap from which the cult system and Guru belief system makes for it extremely difficult to leave. I think we have seen such a lot of growth over the last 30 years because I had the foresight to adapt my message for people everywhere. I think Maharaji is being a bit unfair on himself here. Methinks he did not actually have the foresight - he stumbled from one crisis to another, spinning like a toy top all the time. Thorin

Subject: Re: The first half of the Leaders article From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:59:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What does “Maharaji” mean, and why do so many people acknowledge you as the leader in the field of self knowledge? Maharaji is a title given to someone who shows people a way to a fulfilled and centered existence I thought Maharaj ji means (lit.) Great King, the 'ji' is an expression of respect and endearment, like Maharishi means 'Great Sage'

Subject: Re: The first half of the Leaders article From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:10:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Plus, it wasn't 'Maharaji.' It was Guru Maharaj Ji. Durga Ji. Raja Ji. And this newly coined self-knowledge is a joke. Most of the article is a lie and a joke. What a guy.

Subject: And here are the two testimonials From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:37:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Inner Discipline “Self-knowledge has given me a more objective point of viewabout the people and events in my life,” observes Neil Evans,executive director of the National Workforce Center forEmerging Technologies, an affiliation of Bellevue Community College, Bellevue, WA. Prior to his work in technology education,Evans was the CIO (1983 to 1994) of Microsoft, where he was recognized for three years by CIO magazine as one of the nation's leading 100 IT officers. He believes it has made a difference in his career. “I am constantly asked to take a leadership role because others can sense my objectivity and clarity,” he says. In 1974, when I was 26, I had been investigating a variety of different ways of learning more about myself. I had practiced martial arts for several years. This certainly helped, but I wanted to apply this understanding to all aspects of my life. Maharaji's self-knowledge has enabled me to have this understanding. Like martial arts, it takes constant practice and the results are cumulative. The biggest obstacles that I have had to overcome are ones that I have created. As much as I pursue my dreams wholeheartedly, there is always a voice within that tells me to stop, to go slower, or practice tomorrow. I try not to listen to that voice. Maharaji provides guidance and leadership on this path, reminding me of the value of my life and the importance of consistent practice of the techniques of self-knowledge. A Most Rewarding Effort Now a senior vice president with Grubb & Ellis Company, a global real estate services firm, Richard Cooper is responsible for charting and implementing real estate strategies for his firm’s corporate clients. Cooper reckons he always had a thirst to get at the fundamental nature of being alive. “When I first discovered self-knowledge,” he says, “I knew I had found something unique, but I had no idea how powerful that discovery would become for me.” Watching the paranoid John Nash in A Beautiful Mind recently reminded me of my own turbulent and sometimes insecure college years. My practice of self-knowledge since that time is directly responsible for my being able to not just ignore the fears that stymied me, but to completely eliminate them from my reality. In business, I find myself strong, confident, and unencumbered by personal agendas. My clients like that. People sometimes ask me for advice about finding contentment. There are all kinds of contentment, of course, like the kind that comes from eating a great meal or the kind that comes from closing a big deal. For those kinds of contentment, I might suggest a fine restaurant or a seasoned real estate adviser. For a person seeking sustainable inner peace, though, advice is not likely to help. That person, if anything like me, is not hungry for advice – but for experience! I first heard of Maharaji in 1971 while a student at Lafayette College in Pennsylvania. It was a significant year for me in many ways. At the encouragement of my parents, I had enrolled as a premed student, competing both for grades and for my professors’ considerations, but that year things changed. I worked to please others a bit less and started to do things for myself just a bit more. Maharaji was helping me to become both self-sufficient and truly content. Today, more than 30 years later, Maharaji is doing the same thing. He continues to inspire and is always there to help. I had always hoped that my appreciation of both self-knowledge and Maharaji would grow, but I could not have foreseen that it would become as profound for me as indeed it has. The pursuit of self-knowledge has not always been easy, but looking inside for that which is so elusive on the outside has been the most rewarding effort of my life.

Subject: This is sad, pitiful, and nauseating! From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:59:31 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: These testamonies are nothing less than pathetic when held up against the original declarations of the guru's earlier statements such as 'I will establish peace on Earth' etc. So now rather than all the ridiculous claims made in the past about knowledge like 'The knowledge of all knowledges' 'the knowledge you can't get in college', etc. ad nauseum, it's merely a tool to help give corporate achievers an edge in their capitalist schemes? As Joe pointed out previously, there are hundreds of vice presidents in real estate companies like Grubb & Ellis. Rawat is blatantly trying to decieve people into thinking that this guy Cooper is 'THE' vice president, not just simply 'A' vice president, one of scores or hundreds of vice presidents in his company. Read carefully, check the small print,etc. This whole testamonial thing is designed to appeal to business oriented, bean counting, 'get ahead at any cost' types just like Capt. Rawat himself. How utterly sickening.

Subject: Re: And here are the two testimonials From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:10:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quote:'My practice of self-knowledge since that time is directly responsible for my being able to not just ignore the fears that stymied me, but to completely eliminate them from my reality. In business, I find myself strong, confident, and unencumbered by personal agendas.' But the practice of 'SK' IS your personal agenda....please post here to let us know how meditating enabled you to overcome your personal fears...genuine request. The pursuit of self-knowledge has not always been easy, but looking inside for that which is so elusive on the outside has been the most rewarding effort of my life. It can be pretty elusive on the inside too, chum in my experience. Again , genuine interest, do you always connect with an inner source of whatever it is that is elusive on the outside? Or do you find your moods rise and fall in sync with your outer landscape, happy/sad days, success/failure days? Do you find SK enables you to find a kind of 'plateau' where things level out, or is it just disinterest with the world at large..? genuine question, like to know all peoples experiences.

Subject: European EV broadcast schedule From: Thorin (ex Opie) To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 05:22:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Every month Elan Communications puts out an email listing the next months broadcast schedule. Unusually this month they have gone to greater lengths to describe each broadcast and which gives a deeper insight into the direction Prem Rawat is taking. Very neat, very pat, very slick - so what's new? I emboldened certain sections that caught my eye. --- -- Detail of Broadcast contents: Sundays (20:00 CET) and Wednesdays (21:00 CET) Opening Night May 1st : Florianopolis day 2 - Taken from the event held in Florianopolis, Brazil on August 26th 2001 May 5th and 15th : Buenos Aires day 1 Taken from the event held in Buenos Aires, Argentina, on August 28th 2001 May 8th: Time, Remembrance and Fulfilment. This new production presents the themes of time, remembrance and fulfilment from Maharaji's talks in 2001. Maharaji speaks about the importance of remembering the gift of life, of valuing each breath and each moment, and finding fulfilment in one's life now. May 12th and 22nd : The Company of Truth (Florianopolis, August 25th 2001) This broadcast features the address given in Florianopolis, Brazil. Topics covered include: the gift of life, the human quest throughout history to find fulfilment, the opportunity to find that fulfilment inside, and the kindness of the Master. Maharaji also talks about the origin and meaning of the Hindi word 'sat-sang', the company of truth, and the choice one can make to keep the company of truth, to quench one's thirst, to recognize each breath. May 19th and 29th : The Universal Quest. Designed to be introductory in content, this new release features excerpts of Maharaji speaking to and interacting with audiences at events held in North America during November and December 2001. May 26th and June 5th : Quite Remarkable (Miami, May 4th 2000) This programme is an inspirational message from Maharaji. He poses the question 'what is this life worth to you'? He reminds his audience that life can never be overvalued, and appreciation is the key to its understanding. Tuesdays (20:30 CET) Journey of Discovery May 7th: Maharaji in Tokyo (October 22nd 2000) May 14th: Quenching the Thirst (Rome June 24th 2001) - Of all the things we do in life, how many of those things directly pertain to quenching the thirst of the heart? We have an opportunity to fulfil that thirst during our lives. In fact, isn't that what living is all about? In this broadcast from a talk Maharaji gave in Rome, Italy, Maharaji speaks both to people who practise Knowledge and to those preparing to receive it about how to quench the basic thirst of the heart. May 21st: Receiving Knowledge (Miami Beach, May 26th 2000) - This informative video combines interviews of people who have recently received Knowledge with excerpts from Maharaji's talks, including questions and answers. May 28th: Portland Q&A (March 19th 2001) - The Portland aspirant Q&A session provides a timely follow-up to the previous day's introductory broadcast. It consists of an interactive question and answer session between Maharaji and people interested in receiving Knowledge. Thursdays (20:30 CET) A Possibility May 2nd: Fulfilment (Sydney October 6th 1996) This introductory programme is taken from a public event in Sydney, Australia in 1996. A common theme in Maharaji's talks is present in this address: 'Within you is the domain where you will find your peace. Your peace. My peace is within me. Your peace is within you.' May 9th: Barcelona Public Event (June 1st 2001) May 16th: Knowledge: To Know (Rome, September 30th 2000) In this introductory programme Maharaji addresses the nature of life, common experiences, the desire for freedom and the simplicity and wonder of Knowledge in this introductory program. May 23rd: Lisbon Public Event - The introductory address Maharaji gave in Lisbon, Portugal on June 10th 2001. 'I bring you very good news: you are alive and within you shines a sun of joy, peace and tranquillity so bright that it can make the darkness go away'. May 30th: Within (Denver, March 2nd, 1994) This broadcast provides a closer look at what Maharaji offers. The theme of contentment is addressed by using a montage of photos and quotes from ancient times to the present. Maharaji is then introduced, and speaks about contentment, appreciation, consciousness, and the experience within. Saturdays (20:00 CET) Around the World May 4th: The Essence of your Life (Buenos Aires, August 29th 2001). This broadcast features Maharaji's talk from Buenos Aires in its entirety. He talks about the fact that each one of us has to be the judge of whether we are fulfilled in our lives. He also talks about being comfortable with your existence and with Knowledge. May 11th : Maharaji in White Plains, NY November 18th, 2001 - This broadcast is taken from one of the series of local events Maharaji gave recently May 18th : One World - This video uses the structure of the event video 'One World' which was used at Maharaji's events around the world this year. This version, however, features excerpts from Maharaji's addresses in Curaçao on September 2nd , 2001 and interviews with people with Knowledge from around the world spoken in their local languages. Topics include gratitude to the Master, propagation, enjoyment of life, appreciation for life and the gift of Knowledge, the Master, and people participating. May 25th : Recognizing the Master -Taken from the Barcelona event on June 2nd 2001. When a person feels the need for inner fulfilment, there is a friend who can help. This particular friend is the true Master, but recognizing him requires a certain understanding. Maharaji emphasises the importance of recognizing the Master in this talk.

Subject: Bravo, Loved it... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 14:21:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Is it OK to applaud in church Father Mickey? From: Richard To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 12:55:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very funny! Encore! Praise the Lord and pass the Cognac!

Subject: Re: Is it OK to applaud in church Father Mickey? From: Padre Mickey To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 18:05:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I guess it's okay to applaud in church, but, taking a page from the Lard's book, I prefer if the congregation throw money when pleased with me. Of course, coins can put one's eye out, and the paper money just doesn't seem to make it from the pews to the Chancel; it just flutters into the pew in front of the tosser!

Subject: Hey, what happened to Padre Mickey's song? From: Richard To: Padre Mickey Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 18:39:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess we didn't throw our appreciation hard enough or fast enough and the song by Mickey the Pharisee just vanished.

Subject: Re: Hey, what happened to Padre Mickey's song? From: Padre Mickey To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 19:12:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yow! I hope gerry's not mad at me or somthing! I mean, it wasn't the greatest thing, but I can't see why it would be deleted. Oh, hi, Richard!!

Subject: Yeah, what the hell (no offence, eh?)??? From: Jim To: Padre Mickey Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 22:30:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That parody was just excellent, Mickey, and I was meaning to say so. Sorry I didn't. But what the hell?? This must have been some kind of mistake. I can't imagine any other way it disappeared. Please, post it again. It was great, especially, of course, if one knew the original song which I recall from my early synagogue days. :) No, really, it was great. You could tell that you've written songs before. You still doing any music, by the way? Jim

Subject: Your wish is my command.... From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 02, 2002 at 23:25:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't you sing 'What A Friend We Have in Moishe' back in your synagogue days? :) The post returns: I found this passage particularly interesting: 'When a person feels the need for inner fulfillment, there is a friend who can help. This particular friend is the true Master, but recognizing him requires a certain understanding. Maharaji emphasizes the importance of recognizing the Master in this talk. ' Now that I know that the Master is 'the friend who can help' this old hymn popped into my head. Those of you raised in proper Christian homes will know the tune 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus.' The rest of you are out of luck. Yes, I am aware that the rhymes are a bit forced, but we can't all be Larkin. What a friend we have in Prem Pal A Friend whom with us nothing shares What a privilege to watch him On TV, babbling with out a care O what peace we often forfeit O what needless pain we bear All because we often forget To breathe and stick our fingers in our ears Have we trials and temptations? Is there trouble anywhere? Continue to give him all your money About your woes he does not care Has he a yacht, has he a Gulfstream? Golden toilets beyond compare? Prem indulges his every weakness But question his purity? Don?t you dare! Are we weak and heavy laden? Cumbered with a load of care? 'Neath a blanket squeeze your eyeballs And with him your paycheck share Take a plane trip to Australia Pay big bucks to camp out there Everything will be just lovely Prem will leave your wallet bare What a friend you have in Prem Pal. He doesn't know if you exist But he has a new Foundation To make loot hand over fist Do thy friends despise, forsake thee? Because his feet you have kissed? Why not leave the cult's prison? A world of free thought you have missed

Subject: sat sang From: Confused To: Thorin (ex Opie) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 06:55:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji also talks about the origin and meaning of the Hindi word 'sat-sang', I thought he was getting away from the hindi origins that everyone became confused about. Such as the saris, and being called the master, and incarnation of God. Now he either tries to dispel the myth of sat sang or is it something of the hindi culture he still perpetuates?

Subject: Re: European EV broadcast schedule From: Livia To: Thorin (ex Opie) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 06:25:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point, Thorin. If all this really was primarily about appreciating each breath, fulfilling your life and experiencing contentment, why exactly the need to 'recognise the master'? Why should recognising and being grateful to the master come into it at all? For what purpose? These are difficult questions for premies to answer without alluding to their belief of 'who he is', which they then often attempt to deny, resulting in the doublethink described by Marshall below. It all comes down to the core belief that the techniques of Knowledge somehow wouldn't work without belief in, devotion to or gratitude towards the master. And premies basically believe this because they have been told to. Where exactly is the evidence that the Knowledge wouldn't work in exactly the same way without all of that? Some exes have tried, and found that it is exactly the same. The problem is that none of this can be empirically proven, because the experience is internal and individual and can't be objectively examined. Premies seem to be positive that it's different for them, because of their belief in Maharaji. It's an interesting area because the whole thing revolves around this one core belief, that can't be proven, just - believed! But then belief is relief, so there you are. And I thought all along that it was all about experience, not belief, and that this is what made it different from a religion! Hmmm, for some reason the term "Hindu devotional cult" has just popped into my mind (again). I wonder why? Love, Livia

Subject: Different from a religion? From: The Doc To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 06:56:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: experience? belief? Are you mad? It's all about... FOLLOWING ORDERS! Geez, I dunno....you're bloody lucky you got lost by mistake... if you hadn't you would have been shot for desertion. Oh yea Liv, I answered your award winning post (about my post) ...... it's back aways

Subject: Is it because you're a premie.... From: PatD To: The Doc Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:44:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....that you're contemptible? Not at all,it's because you're just contemptible. That post you made a while back where you boasted about how you'd aided & abetted one of your ghastly little mates in stealing a picture from your own mother, so the proceeds could go towards one of the Bollixshwar's 'projects'. Then you more or less gave her address, for anyone who had half a brain. That's low....that's you.

Subject: DR's no Different from a scum bag From: DR (repost from below) To: The Doc Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:16:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DAVID ROUPELL FROM DOWN BELOW TO LIVIA You bet Ms psychobabble! Thanks for your constantly upgraded fully integrated wise and wonderful judgement of all that is cult, and your pet peevy version of ALL premies (how's that for meglodelusional?!) and their deep childhood related uneresolved teenage sexual drug and alcohol issues. My dad was just over here for 3 weeks, we had the best time ever. Funny that isn't it? He also mentioned that of all his kids, this black duck had the most exciting and fulfilled life of them all, with 'priorities' (sic) in the right order. Mmmm ...Yea, there's a real problem to work on there. Maybe I'll try the 12 steps, they seem to have worked well for you. But dear Libbie, the ego inflation comes from watching hyenas like you scrabble for the morsals of incredibility on this forum by pulling apart a post that was specifically designed to feed your debased, yet superior, mindset and allow your little F7 buddies to praise your great, inciteful work. Hey--they did!! Morons!!! You better ask Patsie about it's real value though, he's the idiot who picked up the bait and dangled it in front of you desperados. Hasn't he realised that all the Three (dozen) Musketeers do here (in internet chat rooms) is toy with youz all? Play Play Play. Geezus Cristoss! How many incarnations does it take?? Any more of this uninhibited moronic lunacy from you people and cerise is coming back. That's not a threat, it's a promise. And this time she'll have a loaded baseball bat. Don't worry but, there'll be another premuim grade post for you to pomouserize all over soon enough. So...be on the lookout for a new poster (name that is), a confused premie, on the verge of a breakdown and looking for help on F7--a perfect vict...sorry 'friend' for you to assist. In the mean time I would strongly suggest you KEEP reading articles about drug rehabilitation clinics, a very telling habit. (P.S. David, you're reading here too often. You are starting to pick up Jim's expressions. You really are a parrot. Now, I gotta run. I am having a personal, private phonelinkup with PremPal. I want to confront him about the quality of champagne at the latest event. It wasn't up to my standard and I'm always blunt and truthful with him, as you now know. A bit a confrontation is in order I reckon. Don't you? I mean, the Grace was premium quality as per usual, but by golly don't you agree that the booze should be as well. Fuck'n oath! Oh yea sirreee, there'll be some hot words flying through the international telephone lines in a minute....Malibu here I come!

Subject: Re: has nothing to do with DR From: Gail To: Above Post Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 10:12:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I moved this post up from below. The person who wrote this used DR and attacked Livia.

Subject: Re: has nothing to do with DR From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 19:02:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I admitted moving the post up. Whoever wrote this to you is a SCUM BAG for doing so. If it's not DR then my humble apologies. I have no way of knowing who wrote it. At any rate, it's a good thing you have broad shoulder, Livia.

Subject: To Gail re DR From: Livia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 13:15:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, Sorry I must be thick or something, but why do you think it's not DR? It was posted from a Mac the same as the one he normally uses and the vitriol seems pretty characteristic. Someone obviously thinks it isn't him but why? Love to you, Livia

Subject: Re: has nothing to do with DR From: Livia To: Above Post Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 06:05:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look you idiot, whoever you are (can't you even think of a pseudonym?) - the above post was posted down below by someone calling themself DR. Using a Mac of the type DR always uses. Where's the 'dishonesty' in responding to that person as if they are DR? Idiot. You lot expose yourselves more and more with your complete inanity. You do yourselves no favours. Go away. Livia

Subject: has everything to do with DR From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 14:09:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry that the cultweasels have begun to attack you too, Livia. This stuff is par for the course for the sort of minds which invented the CAC attacks. Thanks for what you said on LG re homophobia and anti-semitism.

Subject: Re: DR's no Different from a scum bag From: Gail To: DR (repost from below) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:33:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good Lord, David. Why are you so angry? I take that back. I'M STILL ANGRY, and I left nearly four years ago. There is one difference between you and I though. When I first came to this site I wanted to know how and why these ex-premies dared to speak such lies about my beloved. I literally felt sick. At that point, I really believe he was my Lord and saviour. However, these people were voicing the very doubts and fears I had been bottling up for decades. It didn't take to long for me to realize that the person I should be angry with is Prem Rawat. Long after he had a personal realizations as to his 'true identity' he didn't bother to tell the rest of us. How come? That's why I'm angry. I loved him. I believed in him. I worshipped him. I wasted nearly 25 years on him and his no-brain philosophy. So it is with the rest of the folks here to some degree or another. Think of this before you vomit on one of us. The chiding of premie writing is a way of laughing at ourselves. We used to believe this stuff, too. That's what makes it funny. I see myself in it all--right up to the eyeballs. Deep down, you are probably angry at yourself because you have a nagging suspicion that some of this stuff is true. You are attempting to set yourself up to never leave Prem. How could you ever leave now and save face. God knows we've grovelled. It's time to do it for the right reasons! I hope you feel better regardless of how you live your life. Gail

Subject: Don't waste your time on this jerk From: Marianne To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 21:05:55 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hey Gail. This guy Roupell isn't worth your energy. He first showed up here last year, madsquerading as a teenager named Cerise. When discussing how Jagdeo had raped Abi, he said that he didn't care if she was raped by a herd of wild elephants. That's the compassion he's learned at the feet of his master. Now he's making more threats. Nice guy, huh? Love, Marianne

Subject: Re: Don't waste your time on this jerk From: Cynthia To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 00:25:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Marianne for saying that. I envy and admire your level-headed approach and your compassion and your ability to be so damned honest without going off the deep end. Me? I just get pissed off. A few deep breaths, and now I'm okay... Lots of Love and a very big hug to you, (I'm a good hugger) Cynthia

Subject: I take it back DR.....(MK II) From: Dermot To: The Doc Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 10:21:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but I notice you've admitted to all sorts of lies, game playing and misinformation because we 'goons' are so gullible. I also notice you've threatened to bring back 'Cerise' .....that would be the 'Cerise' who scoffed at and poured scorn on a lady rape victim because she had the temerity to be raped by an ass licking Mahatma of that little, squat,greasy,big mouthed, self-obsessed guru cum LEADER you worship and adore, yes?. Let's hope all your lady friends, online & offline, don't ever have the sad misfortune to be raped and then sincerely turn to YOU (or one of your multitude of personas) for genuine understanding, comfort and support eh? Let's also be thankful that your daughter didn't come in to contact with Jagdeo eh? I guess you'd then have to decide between loyalty to your greaseball ' be grateful to ME, worship ME ME ME ME ' preacher man and your daughter huh? Very tricky one to call there, hey? As well as Cerise you also threaten another (or a multitude) of other fantasy posters......well, when you gotta do SERVICE (oh it aint called that now is it? What's the latest terminology? 'Help out' or something isn't it?)...... Basically you're just a deluded sad fuck. 'Hey, aren't the initials DR just the coolest?' hahahahaha.....getting in practise for 'Cerise' to take over hey? Young teen girl lingo.....just a warm up is it, for the 'real' thing? You are a total disgrace and discredit to Premies actually....such as the mother of my daughter....IMO she's conned and deluded by a personality worshipping cult and no doubt she thinks I'm conned and deluded by my 'mind'.....but still, all in all, she's a decent, loving person. But Prem pal ass licking game players such as yourself? Pathetic. .....and life sure is great that I can be caught in personality worshipping fantasy and, with the clear light of reason,find my way out of it... hope this wasn't too strong DR.....I mean , I know how SENSITIVE you are and everything :) -Dermot

Subject: Did you have M name your other daughters too? From: Tonette To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 12:02:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just curious. And pray tell, what name(s) did he use? Surely none of the lata's ones! You know, prem, nav, daya etc. Hey, your young daughter isn't blond by chance. Hope not.

Subject: No...You keep it!.....(MK II) From: The Doc To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 03:37:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's your shit. Dermot. You carry it with you. Before you post and, I'm afraid, after you post as well. And, as you admitted below, it's petty, vindictive and mean. Doesn't even touch me. Interesting though...with this 'mother of my daughter' bullshit. In your case... she thinks you're a twit and vice versa? Ok. Well...(he said pomposly, chin arrogantly poised skywards, fists clenched in self belief and sanctimonious pride and ego)... ....'The 'mother of MY daughter' is coming up to the Amaroo event in Sept - after an 18 year absence from the evil cult.' Interesting difference in modern couple communications eh? Oh well, one duff seed out of six isn't a bad average. :) Are you a musician? Hey, you could join Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds!!!

Subject: I'm not buying it DR From: Marshall To: The Doc Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 08:52:14 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Poop-el, So you expect us to believe that you planted your Amaroo report on LG simply to fool the ex's. You made it all up, and dumb ol' Pat C fell for it along with all us other 'rabid ex's', especially Livia. Not only that but you are responsible for any wavering premies posts of late, and you plan more of these ruses in the future, and it only took you the better part of a week to come up with this flatulence. Oh and let me get this straight, your father, the scion of a royal toilet carrier, with vast holdings in England and throughout the world, considers you to be the most well adjusted of his many offspring. Also your shining, exemplary life reflects on all premies everywhere, and most importantly everything is fine and dandy in the cult, I mean foundation of perm rawats. Wait I can't forget, also I am bitterly envious of your silver spoon, royal, noble jet-setter lifestyle, not to mention I'm illiterate and completely devoid of any life outside of this forum. Gee, I just stepped in a big pile of rotten dog shit DR, excuse me while I go get the hose and blast it off.

Subject: You bought it and you sell it... From: Cynthia To: Doc Kneeson Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:14:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why are you picking on Livia? What has she ever done to you? Shot for desertion? What's that, a threat? Go back to your geetars and pluck, bossy boot licker.

Subject: Re: You bought it and you sell it... From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:31:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, Thanks! He's picking on me because I went over to LG and asked them all a question about grace. No hostility, just a question. Needless to say they all piled in, some of them as intelligently as they could, and some of them with sarcasm and general ill-will. DR hasn't been able to let it go since and now appears to think I'm 'lost'. It would be funny if it wasn't so desperate. DR, get real. What you are involved in is and always was a Hindu devotional cult that features a meditation that some find quite effective. That's all. The vast majority of people who ever heard about it weren't remotely interested, especially when they heard about Maharaji's wealth, which generally put them off completely. To describe people who left that Hindu devotional cult as 'lost' because they left that cult and then enjoy coming on a forum and discussing and deconstructing experiences that they all shared over several decades, well, get yourself a life, DR. Why don't you go and find yourself some people who are really lost instead of wasting space here? Maybe there's some people out there bursting to hear about that experience that has apparently made you into the wise, conscious, fulfilled person you seem to think you are? Go and help them - they might need you. We certainly don't. Livia

Subject: Re: Different from a religion? From: Livia To: The Doc Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 08:30:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And if you're Roupell, I've answered your somewhat vitriolic post down below, (thread named "A thoroughly modern pwk in Amaroo?) although I probably shouldn't have bothered. Livia PS On reflection, talking with you makes me even gladder that I've left the world of premies. Or what the world of premies seems to have become. Sheesh!

Subject: Doublethink From: Marshall To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 21:27:02 (EDT) Email Address: nope Message: I've seen the term 'Orwellian' used here in this forum, in referece to the prem rawat cult so many times that I decided to read 1984 and see what the big deal about it was. Although I'd read it before when I was 10 or so, I had forgotten most of it and probably didn't understand the more subtle meanings anyway. George Orwell must have been an interesting guy, definitely not a non-thinker premie sort, that's for sure. Anyway the whole 'orwellian nightmare' thing was really something. There are so many parallels between 'The Party' in 1984 and the Maharaji cult. I mean really, what much difference is there between Maharaji's 'the mind is evil' stuff, now watered down to 'listen with your heart(not your mind)' and Orwells thoughtcrimes, and thoughtpolice? I also feel there is a parallel with being a good premie and being a good party member. They both require blind obedience, and tons of doublethink(love that word). What a cool book! Too bad rawat hates reading, oh well. Marshall

Subject: And don't forget Animal Farm [nt] From: Neville To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 04:53:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Book or the Forum? From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:16:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you talking about the book or the forum called Life's Great? LOLOLOLOL!!!!! Phew, I got out just in time. Very creepy over there...I seem to forget that and end up back here where it's safe. Cynth

Subject: There was a book? [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:41:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOLOL! Neville.... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Was there a fat cat in Animal Farm From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 14:20:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: like this one: !

Subject: take two From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 14:21:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.tubcat.com/tubbercat.jpg

Subject: Chris, please don't post Catweasel's pic here From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 16:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We don't want to stoop to CACweasel tactics now do we?

Subject: not even after his colonic? From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 14:14:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.karawynn.net/mishacat/photos/toiletfront.jpg

Subject: That's a well-trained pussy. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 14:19:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Now THAT's something special! [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 18:16:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Wow, was CW ever full o' shit (nt) From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 15:36:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: She's lucky she's holding it the wrong way roun [nt] From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:16:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: must get stuck in the catflap? [NT] From: Pauvre chat... To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 19:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: the inner game From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 18:19:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been reading the Inner Game of Music and it's quite good. Can't pick much fault with it, although I haven't read the whole thing yet. The book is recommended highly by all sorts of eminent musicians. It seems funny, though, for a premie to be telling people how to achieve a certain state of consciousness without telling them that they need to go and receive Knowledge. A bit out of character for a premie, do you know what I mean? It was published in 1986 by someone called Barry Green (does anyone know him?) and of course Tim Gallwey. The book is dedicated to Maharaji, as the tennis one is. Is this the only instance where premies have used the experiences they have presumably had in meditation to put forward a 'theory of awareness'? And of course, the book doesn't actually tell you how to stop 'self 1' from annoying 'self 2', so presumably the dedication to Maharaji is there to tempt you in that direction. Interesting, though. I guess if that's all it was supposed to be, not too many of us would have a problem with it, would we? But these days the Knowledge seems to be the carrot that leads you towards the gratitude, and then the gratitude leads you into the mindset, and then the mindset turns you into a cult person who forgot they could ever think for themself. Oh well. Any views, anyone? (I'll come back with more of my own when I've finished the book.) Love, Livia

Subject: Re: the inner game From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 18:46:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have'nt read the book Liv, but I picked up on the 'self 1 vs. self 2' idea, and at once felt that shudder; Why anybody can pose a course for self improvement in any field by perpetuating this concept of the divided self is at best a wonder, and a dangerous little game at worst. Music , tennis, brain surgery, formula one driver.......... FUCKING CONCENTRATE!! OK!!...... AM I GETTING THRU'?? People can make a lot of money on creating a divided self, then thinking of even more ingenious ways to accomodate or 'heal' the division..then take a load of credit for it.....(?) Er...you seen 'Saving Private Ryan'?? Imagine you were one of those guys on the landing craft at D-Day, first wave in......how many 'selves' do you think you would have time for , hmmmm? There's a lot of very gullable people out there; how do I know this? I'm one of them, I like to believe the best in people and am open enough to try new things, but now, after all I've been thru' , I tend to look for the simple...and question anybody who would make me run around in circles inside attempting to 'improve' myself...really, what the fuck does anybody REALLY know?? LOve to you, (in a rather gritty mood)... AV

Subject: Re: the inner game From: Bolly Shri To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:32:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV Sorry you are feeling so grouchy. Have you tried The Inner Cup of Tea, by Cuppa Chai? It takes you through the stages of aligning the inner tea bag with the public or ceramic cup. With the aid of some boiling water and the incantation 'Just brewing up love' some of our most ingrained angst evaporates and one becomes concious of a higher more tolerant state of being. This is available, depending on own brand offers and personal taste at most supermarkets and cafes. You may need to do this more than once. I practise several times a day and know it is working. Love and two sugars, Bolly

Subject: Re: the inner game From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:47:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, my littlte teasmaid (x), I tried Twinings Real-i-tea, but it gave me bad dreams, so I switched blends to etern-i-tea, and one bag lasted absolutely ages. A had a brand for years, called deevo-tea, but apparently it's been rebranded. Then someone suggested absurdy-tea, but I drank enuff of that to last a life time, so at the end of the day I'll probably go back to good ol' Simplici-tea! Bring the lemon drizzle cake and I'll put the kettle on! Love and two sugars, AV

Subject: Re: above to Bolly From: AV To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 11:52:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I dunno who you are AV From: Sir Dave To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 00:53:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but your post hits the nail right on the head. Self 1 and self 2 indeed!!! What a load of old tosh. I saw a good program on TV the other night about the great snooker players of the eighties when the game hit the big time. Great personalities and only one per person. In the sport I used to revel in - cycle racing, there was only one self and you had to push yourself as much as possible in order to beat the other guy who was punishing himself too. Ha, the one who was the greater masochist won!

Subject: Its the bloody language! From: Bryn To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 07:46:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, I agree totally, but no pedantry intended Sir D.: '..only one self, and you had to push yourself'. So where is the pushing coming from? As I say, I like AV's gritty sentiments, and I'm not trying to be clever. But language as we find it is simply set up to bewilder and divide. It is an ideal tool for salesmen and conmen in its unexamined form. I can't bear to listen to the flabby, self-congratulatory, pseudo statements of his Highness any more. Once upon a time I thought he was the most articulate man in the kingdom. How did that happen? Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Its the bloody language! From: Sir Dave To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 10:12:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The pushing is coming from one's self. Oneself is pushing itself. I am pushing me but I and me are the same thing. On a bike there's only one rider. A tandem has two, of course. The one at the back is called the ''stoker'' and that was always my position - staring at someone's arse. It could have been interesting but it was always my brother-in-law's.

Subject: Re: It IS the bloody language! From: Bryn To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 07:05:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your meaning is clear and in my opinion true true true. But it would require a radical re interpretation of the word 'push' for the sentence to hold water logically would it not? Ah bollocks to it-who cares, I know what you mean and you are right. Who wants to stare at their brother-in-law's arse. Answers please on a postcard to..... Love (in any sense of the word) Bryn

Subject: Re: I dunno who you are AV From: AV To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 04:09:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jaques Anquetil! my hero!

Subject: That name is music to my ears From: Sir Dave :p To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 07:01:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my teens when I rode time trials I'd be thinking about the great man who knew a thing or two about TTs; Jaques Anquetil - and in road races I'd be trying to emulate our great Tom Simpson, sadly lost on Mont Ventoux. And then, came Eddy Mercx...

Subject: Premie Snooker Player - Dean O'Kane From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Speaking of snooker players, anyone remember Dean O'Kane? He was the New Zealand snooker champion in the 80s and a premie. I think the best he did in a major championship was the quarterfinals which isn't bad. A headline in the papers was 'Dean thanks his Guru' when he was interviewed after a good performance. Because of this I used to support him in every competition he was in like he was my favourite football team or something. John.

Subject: Re: Premie Snooker Player - Dean O'Kane From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:41:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never followed snooker in the eighties. I was heavily into horse-racing at the time. I always seem to miss things when they happen and watch it years later on TV. For reasons known only to us, I missed most of the seventies films and TV programmes and am still catching up on them.

Subject: Re: catching up From: AV To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:16:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: s'funny, you see these retro music progs with chart-yopping bands from the 70s, and I think.....who the hell are they?

Subject: Hey AV, how come From: Sir Dave To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 17:00:39 (EDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: you know about Jaques Anquetil and why was he your hero? Are you French? Were you an Anquetil groupie? You've got me wondering. I mean, no non cyclist British, American or Oz person would have heard of him. You can email me if you want. (email address above)

Subject: Re: Hey AV, how come From: AV To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 17:25:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I liked bikes! ps who was that little spanish guy who went up the Puy de Dome like there was no gravity?

Subject: Re: Hey AV, how come From: Sir Dave To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 20:31:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Giminez, perhaps? There's been many great Spanish climbers and it depends which era you're talking about. Giminez was in the sixties and seventies, around the time of Anquetil.

Subject: Re: Hey AV, how come From: AV To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 16:12:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's it! flashback ! did he have a knickname? I seem to remember so

Subject: Re: catching up From: Crispy To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 15:45:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yea, but look on the bright side, AV. At least we missed all that disco music, and got really good at guitar arrangements for Arti! Crispy Got-Away-From-It-All: no-media-ashram-living

Subject: Re: the inner game From: Seeker To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 18:39:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My Inner Game of music and work book has no Dedication to M like my Inner Game of Golf does. Inner game of Music has a thankyou to m in the last sentence of the last page. Workbook has nothing.

Subject: Unauthorized to see EV website? From: Mirror To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 10:08:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi folks, Since I was the one that designed the original EV website for the Netherlands, I regularly check out this and other EV websites for updates. When I tried to view the EV AUSTRALIA website, a message came up telling me that I was not authorized to view this site. Anyone know how/when this happened? I know that about a month ago I was still able to access the site. Do people now need a password or a prem-cookie? I have not encountered the same message at other EV sites. Mirror EV Australia www.elanvital.com.au./

Subject: Re: Unauthorized to see EV website? From: Gail To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 15:06:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried to contact EV, Visions, etc. I am blocked from entering, making a contribution and so on. Lucky me, eh? Too bad that you can't demand the bare bones of your work back. Just another donation for Prem. Next, he'll be telling his minions that HE designed it, and He and He and He and He and He and He ....

Subject: Re: Unauthorized to see EV website? From: Richard To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 12:28:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That type of message usually means the site is down or they have changed the address or first page URL. If the site was password protected, a dialogue box would appear asking for User Name and ID.

Subject: Re: Unauthorized to see EV website? From: Salam To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 21:52:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: someone can do a ping or trace route it blah blah blah blah.....

Subject: Thanks and Sorry From: blondie the troll To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 18:08:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, about ten days ago I put up a fairly contentious post. Thanks to all those who responded; unfortunately I was over ambitious in thinking I could keep up with regular participation here and I've, quite literally lost the thread. So, sorry to all those who asked questions and made points, all of which deserved a reply.

Subject: I'm sorry too From: Sir Dave To: blondie the troll Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 01:03:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: since I've only just found your reply to my post. Yes, I'm very familiar with the Sex Pistols. And talking about those Eastern Celts - nobody was able to conquer the wetlands of The Fens and the people who lived there were a hardy bunch of tree-house dwellers who weren't averse to the rising damp and made a living from the swamps. The people who live there now are probably descended from the original Celts.

Subject: VISIONS - ARCHIVES (from below) From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:49:42 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: The 30-year works of Maharaji in film, audiotape, videotape, still photography and text are stored in the archives. You can bet Prem has copies of everything he has done! Archives are documented and preserved to be used over again. (AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN--YES WE REPACT THIS JUNK INTO VARIOUS COMPILATIONS TO BE SOLD AS THE LATEST VERSTION OF TOP HITS! Back in 1998, almost every video was a new extract of some old rehashed junk. Much material is deteriorating due to the ravages of time. Particularly the film and video produced prior to 1990, much of which is in jeopardy and some of the video material from 1986-7 has been found to already be shedding oxide. Why do they care? They already tried to recall all the old stuff anyway. Remember? We were asked to send in any old AND IT IS DIVINE mags,WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI, old video tapes, and any other crap that might be incriminating. Even though restoration has begun, in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. Is Prem pretending that he has lost videos of himself parading around as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Geez, Maharaji, you should have come EPO. We have lots of this garbage. Tell us what you need. We'll be glad to send it to you for a CONTRIBUTION. However, Maharaji we only have three of the 20 programs you did in Kissimmee, 1978 which we will be glad to send you a copy of. Why didn't we get to see most of these?. Was it because you were drunk for most of the 'event' or was it because of the preposterous claims you made? Archiving is a huge undertaking. The first step of extensive sorting and inventory of materials has been completed. The older archives are now being kept in a film and video vault. It is climate controlled, providing ideal conditions for the best preservation of media elements, and monitored for heat, smoke, fire, flood and intrusion. We are especially concerned about the intrusion aspect. Some of this material is highly controversial and meant for X-rated eyes only. Technology now allows us to convert historical records to digital and maintain them. Cataloging and data base design are projects now being planned, but are dependent on the level of contributions. Of course, Prem doesn't really need any achives if his message is all the same. How come he's not selling tapes of himself at 13-35 in their entire unabridged version?

Subject: oh, but I kept it all.... From: silvia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 19:30:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and when i'm done taking care of personal bussiness I happily will begin a website JUST WITH THE MATERIAL MAHARAJI/RAWAT WANTS TO BRUSH UNDER THE CARPET. I promised and it will be done. I have 400 and some videos. It is going to be so much fun....hehhehehehehehe ())

Subject: VISIONS ARCHIVES - corrected version From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 09:58:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TAKEN FROM VISIONSINTERNATIONAL.COM The 30-year works of Maharaji in film, audiotape, videotape, still photography and text are stored in the archives. You can bet Prem has copies of everything he has done! Archives are documented and preserved to be used over again. (AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN)--Yes, we repack this junk into various compilations to be SOLD as the latest version of TOP HITS! Back in 1998, almost every video was a new extract of some old rehashed junk. I don't know what the new releases are like. It is probably the same given the fact that he hardly does any new 'events.' Much material is deteriorating due to the ravages of time. Particularly the film and video produced prior to 1990, much of which is in jeopardy and some of the video material from 1986-7 has been found to already be shedding oxide. This is probably an out-an-out lie. Why do they care if the stuff is disintegrating? There was a frantic, general recall of all the old stuff anyway. Remember? We were asked to send in any old AND IT IS DIVINE mags,WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI, old video tapes, and any other crap that might be incriminating. Even though restoration has begun, in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. Is Prem pretending that he has lost videos of himself parading around as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE? Geez, Maharaji, you should have come EPO. We have lots of this garbage. Tell us what you need. We'll be glad to send it to you for a CONTRIBUTION. However, Maharaji we only have three of the 20 programs you did in Kissimmee, 1979 which we will be glad to send you copies of. Why didn't we get to see most of these? Was it because you were drunk for most of the 'event' or was it because of the preposterous claims you made? Archiving is a huge undertaking. The first step of extensive sorting and inventory of materials has been completed. The older archives are now being kept in a film and video vault. It is climate controlled, providing ideal conditions for the best preservation of media elements, and monitored for heat, smoke, fire, flood and trusion. We are especially concerned about the intrusion aspect. Some of this material is highly controversial and meant for X-rated eyes only. To be perfectly frank, even Prem doesn't want to see this stuff again, and he wouldn't dare let anyone else see any of it. This is just another ploy for money. Technology now allows us to convert historical records to digital and maintain them. Cataloging and data base design are projects now being planned, but are dependent on the level of CONTRIBUTIONS. Of course, Prem doesn't really need any archives if his message is still the same. How come he's not selling tapes of himself at ages 13-35 in their entire unabridged version? What is he writing? A BIBLE ... Verily, verily I say unto you, I am the Lord thy God!

Subject: gee- I have the whole cassette series From: janet To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 04:43:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have all the audio tapes from kissimmee 78 and 79. complete sets. yup. I kept em in static protected bagging. have only taken em out a few times in the 23 years I've had em. They played fine the last time I listened to em. that was maybe, oh, 5 years ago. I don;t think they've deteriorated. I can't hear any difference, anyway. what are they worth to ya, Prem?? How much will ya pay me for em?? You live fat You can afford it. How much are they worth to ya? Gee, PRem--I've been living on social security disability for, oh, 23 years now. 'Could YOU live on 500 dollars a month? Try it, I dare you. Could YOU survive on dumpster finds? I have. Its a acquired taste, honey. Ya gotta warm to the task, but after you dump your pride, it's really ok, honest. I had an inheritance of 10,000 dollars in 1976, Prem. You never knew about it, cause I never told you. I wanted to buy myself some land, live out in the woods, raise a family the natural way. Think that was too much to hope for? Well, thanks to you, I never saw that money sweetie. My family seized it and kept it from me because they didn't want me to give it to you. It ended up getting spent on mental hospitals and legal fees and oh yess, bail after your birthday party in Denver, when I dressed up as Krishna[ and Carlos as Rama- we went as a duo ya know--I have photos of us--blue skin and all] and I got a little 'out there' and shoplifted some costume jewelry from woolworth's downtown to complete the ensemble. I didn't have any money so I borrowed it for a day and was gonna bring it back the very nect day, ya see, but, well, the police didn't see it that way.... but my point is, I've lived broke on the margins of society all these years because you said money was illusory and success in the world was Maya, and I wanted to be Holy and Realize God, just like you kept saying we could, so I did just what I was told, and, well...I'm gonna be 50 this summer and it sure would be nice to be able to stop scrimping and dumpster diving and living so far down below the federal Poverty Line if I could just get back what you took from me before I die. I heve these tapes you say you need back. What are they worth to you? For me, they're just reminders of how I was forced to uproot and cross the country to stay out in a muddy, cold campgrounds just 4 weeks out of childbirth, and how I got left behind in the mud when the show ended with no way home and my newborn son in a rainy, 40° tent, while your obnoxious mucky mucks stonewalled me at the doors of their warm, plumbed, heated, well lit trailers and refused to let me bring the baby inside to change his diapers. Do you know that to this day my grown son shrinks away from cold water, and he doesn't even know why?? But I know why. I had to strip him and bathe him in cold water in that freezing tent when he was 4 weeks old because of your pompous, cruel orders to your henchmen. so I think, all things considered , you owe me something better. What goes around comes around, and as you do unto others, so shall it be done unto you. You do to me now, it will be done to you, next. So what's it gonna be, fatman? How much are these complete sets worth to you? IF you're not interesed, the FBI might be. RICO and all that. I wouldn't dream of destroying evidence. Why, that's against the Law! And besides--it's not just evidence of YOUR life. It's evidence of MINE, too. And despite all that you DID take away from me, that's one thing you CAN'T take from me. I know where I was and what I did, cause I lived it. Did you forget? You weren't there alone. There were 10,000 of us there with you!!! Do you really think the FBI is gonna take your word against 10,000 of ours????? C'mon, cirrhosis-boy. Make me an offer. cash only, in advance. bidding starts at 10,000 American. I just love it when men fight over me.

Subject: Re: gee- I have the whole cassette series From: Bolly Shri To: janet Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 06:55:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, I read your post with a sinking heart. The last few days it's been going through my mind how degrading a lot of events were for those of us bringing up the next generation. Hanging around for hours in rain and cold with a hungry baby is not a test of devotion it's a way of humiliating people. I cringe when I think about camping in that race course in England, putting up a tent in a country where camping ought to be banned it's so uncomfortable. Your son knows what you are, a mother who took care of him. So the guy wants his tapes and stuff back tough. But don't feel bitter. You are taking your life back now. I live a constrained existence due to chronic illness. Sometimes I resent that I had more energy for the guru git than I have for my own children. But I can't change the past, only learn from it. I wish you well, would you really want his tainted cash knowing where it came from? Much love, yours Bolly Shri

Subject: What's the deal these days? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:15:34 (EDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I checked the Canadian site and there are no contact people left. I took the liberty of sending Phyllis Brown a get-well-soon card at Elan Vital E-mail headquarters. How about George Legere? Is he still on the premie dole? Getting donations must be harder around Canada. As far as I know, the cult members (all four of them) are still holed up in their rat holes watch satellite broadcasts of their Lord. I see that Visions has stopped selling trinkets, or have they gone underground. What's going on in your neck of the woods?

Subject: My neck of the woods? From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:29:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, As far as I know here in Vermont nothing is going on. Lots of premies got their own dishes so they probably just stay at home and watch Prem Pay Pal Rawat. My neck of the woods? It's fucking snowing today. April 28th, buds are out and trying to bloom and it's flipping snowing. Now that's getting old.:( I want spring. Gee, I guess I'm bored.... Cynthia

Subject: Re: My neck of the woods? From: Mass. aspirant To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 06:29:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The local hall recently closed. Could not pay the $700/mo. costs to maintain it with only 3-4 people coming to listen to the same old shit. The locals now meet at a premies house to watch the same old shit on video or on dish. Having a hard time getting us aspirants involved. They raise many questions for which they have no answer, except to watch more videos until it sinks in. One of the premies told me not to believe what I read on the internet when asked about some of the things I have heard. I discovered the Ex- site and subsequently have been reading here. The local situation is in the state of disrepair.

Subject: Re: My neck of the woods? From: Baloney Bud To: Mass. aspirant Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 08:28:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must be talking about another Mass...... None of what you say about Massachusetts is true.

Subject: Re: My neck of the woods? From: Thorin To: Baloney Bud Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 10:58:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Baloney Bud Further to Livia's and my posts below. Common sense will show that there are current aspirants that want to know the Truth, many will have an internet connection and will be reading this forum and EPO with interest. You raised the possibility that what is said here and on EPO is false (partly or wholly). I think it is now your personal and moral duty to clarify these issues, not least to keep these aspirants on board. After all Maharaji said that his followers should be his 'hands and feet' in his mission to bring Knowledge to the world and his followers should not in any way obstruct his endeavours. The readers here await your rsponse with interest - presumably a non response by you will be considered an obstruction by Maharaji? Thorin

Subject: Re: My neck of the woods? From: Livia To: Baloney Bud Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 09:05:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Baloney Bud Well, fill us in then. What exactly is it like for aspirants in Massachusstts? What goes on there? How many premies on average participate/attend meetings/videos or have the satellite connection? How many aspirants are there? How many people have received Knowledge there in the last year/2 years/5years? If you can't come up with any specific answers then you don't have much credibility. Facts, please, not surmise! If you don't answer this post I'll draw my own conclusions. Livia

Subject: To Baloney Bud From: Thorin To: Baloney Bud Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 08:55:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Baloney Bud I was wondering if you could perhaps spare some time in giving us a better understanding of the aspirant process that prevails in Massachusetts. Like how many aspirants there are, what percentage pass the various 'tests' and go on to receive the Knowledge of Maharaji? You seem to indicate that premies assisting in the aspirant process in Mass. are willing to answers any questions put to them. Perhaps, for the sake of clarity you can answer the following questions. Assume, for a minute, that I am a sincere aspirant. 1. Maharaji presents himself as a unique leader able to reveal true inner happiness. In what way is Maharaji (sorry Prem Pal) unique and why can't true inner happiness be achieved in other ways. 2. In the past Prem Pal portrayed himself as the Lord of the Universe but now claims not to have. This presents me with some difficulty in understanding who he really is especially in the light of many of his existing followers still believe he is the Lord of the Universe. 3. There are various accusations leveled against Maharaji which are summarised on ex-premie.org. What specific reasons can you give me that I should not believe any of these negative accusations? In what way are these accusations untrue? Thanks Thorin

Subject: Aspirants Please Consider This... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 16:21:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Such EASY questions, I just can't resist: 1. Maharaji presents himself as a unique leader able to reveal true inner happiness. In what way is Maharaji (sorry Prem Pal) unique and why can't true inner happiness be achieved in other ways. Maharaji/Prem is unique in that He is the True Master/Teacher of our time. If you would just shut up and listen, and watch His videos for a long time and stop asking questions, then That Understanding will eventually dawn on you. True inner happiness is not possible without the Master, because no one has ever saved himself. There are other seeming ways to inner happiness, like other phoney meditations and teachers, but if you think they are of any real value, then perhaps Knowledge isn't for you. If you have questions, you need to just watch videos until you have no more questions. That is what Maharaji made the "Learning More" series of videos for, aspirants. As long as you still have questions, then Knowledge isn't for YOU. If that is the case, then please just walk on, and stop bothering us. We don't want to be bothered by people who are "like" dead people, if they aren't interested in becomming like "alive" people and being saved. 2. In the past Prem Pal portrayed himself as the Lord of the Universe but now claims not to have. This presents me with some difficulty in understanding who he really is especially in the light of many of his existing followers still believe he is the Lord of the Universe. The Mahatmas, and a bunch of western men and women who wore sari's and worshiped Indian Culture more than the Master Himself, made up a whole bunch of stuff. The Master fired the Mahatmas, and He won't answer the questions of former students, because they shouldn't be asking questions, because questions have no place in the World of Knowlege. If anyone wants to walk from Knowledge, they should just WALK. You said: "In the past..." Well, the past happened a long time ago, and it isn't even like that anymore anyway, so just ignore it, it's not important. We have The Master HERE and NOW, TODAY, not some creepy dead Jesus or some boring old book of scripture nonsense. He's HERE. That's all that matters, concentrate on that. Watch Videos. Once you cultivate That Understanding, and experience That Feeling, you will see that it has nothing to do with the past, or with questions, which is why you needn't bother focusing on either of them. "Lord of the Universe?" Where did you hear that? I think you must have overheard current students of Prem talking about that popular "Lord of the Rings" movie. Perhaps you've heard some old time premies refer to Maharaji as "LOTU". That doesn't stand for Lord Of The Universe, it's just an abrieviation of "lotus", a charming nick-name for Prem from the old days in India. That's why Prem is removing the Indian trappings, because they create this kind of confusion. 3. There are various accusations leveled against Maharaji which are summarised on ex-premie.org. What specific reasons can you give me that I should not believe any of these negative accusations? In what way are these accusations untrue? The people who make these accusations are a tiny, small group of people, who all have mental problems and used to take drugs and wear sari's in the 70's. Many of them had their photos, names, addresses and phone numbers appear (briefly) on some anonymouse "Citizens Against Cyberstalking" websites, along with profiles of convicted kidnapers and child molesters. The sites were taken down when these awful ex-students had the nerve to complain to the ISP's that hosted the sites. They actually closed down Anti-cyberstalking websites! Isn't that shocking? These ex-students also claimed that a "cult" run by The Master put those sites up. But what cult? I don't see any cult. I think they are still taking drugs, and imagining things. Why would you even want to consider what people like that have to say? I myself tried to address some of these silly "accusations" on my website, 'Please Consider This... not THAT', but the naughty ex-students wouldn't listen, and simply used it as an opportunity to ask even MORE questions. Maharaji/Prem made it very clear in Amaroo recently, that people don't need questions, they need ANSWERS. So as for the accusations on ex-premie.org, you should simply ignore that website and it's questions, because they won't help you. Just watch The Teacher's videos, untill you no longer have any questions. It couldn't be more simple. If you want to focus on questions, then Knowledge isn't for you. It's for people who want answers. I hope this clears things up for any aspirants who might be reading here. Andrea Eriksonn :) Who knows questions are a waste of time, when all you need is answers.

Subject: ..not THAT..........hilarious:) From: Dermot To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 23:12:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Aspirants Please Consider This... From: ex-aspirant To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 19:09:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Andrea, I read here often and post seldom, and you have inspired me to post. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but your overall advice for aspirants sucks. I say to aspirants never stop doubting, think critically at all times, and be weary of anyone who says: don't think-- just believe. Ever cult on the planet has the same line. Join Amway; you could get some free soap out of the deal.

Subject: Don't worry about Andrea! From: JHB To: ex-aspirant Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:21:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea Eriksonn is a rather good ex-premie caricature of Erika Andersen who posted here and later set up www.pleaseconsiderthis.com, which lamely attempted to counter ex-premies' allegations. The problem with the Andrea caricature is that at times it is hard to distinguish between the quality of the arguments of Andrea and Erika. Joe Whalen wrote some excellent rebuttals of the articles on Erika's site which are now on EPO. Look at the ashram item in the Major Allegations against Maharaji, and the section on whether Maharaji is the leader of a cult for some of Joe's analysis, which includes extensive quotes from Erika's site. All the best, and well done for escaping! John.

Subject: A 'caricature' you say?... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 17:08:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really? How very curious. You naughty ex-students are always saying rude things like that about me. But I know it's really just because the truths I speak are so confronting to you, that you have to try to diminish what I say by reducing me in your MINDS to a mere "caricature". But thats ok, I'm a nice person, and I understand. You go right ahead and do those little things you do. I take it from where it comes. Can you say "rotten vegetable bin?" :). (Giggle!) Just KIDDING! Remember, I'm NICE. :P And I really am not "just like" Erika Anderson, you know. We really are different in many ways. Erika IS a dear, she really is, but I found her website a wee bit too restrained, if you ask me. I hate to say this, and I hope she doesn't take offense, but I suspect that she really is a bit of a, you know, a Church Lady. For instance, she NEVER talks about The Master's bathroom humor. Most of the Church Ladies don't, because they are embarassed by it. I however, have no problem with it. For instance, remember when He talked about how when people will live on the moon one day, you will be able to tell whenever they fart, because the gas will propell them up out of their seats because of the low gravity? That was brilliant! The Dolly Lame-uh or Mother Tearaza never say things like that, because they are un-fun prudes who are embarassed by bodily functions. Remember that joke in Long Beach, about the Indian man who cured himself of homesickness, by collecting a bucket of his bodily fluids for a week, and then inhaled from it deeply? Prem predicted that the prudish Elan Vital/Visions International Church Ladies would edit that out, and of course, they did. Who do these Church Ladies think they are? The Master wisely knows that bathroom humor is a universal way to reach across cultural boundries. When will these selfish volunteers stop interfering in the Masters work? I have an artistic side too, not unlike that fine Student-of-Prem actress, Michelle Deredune. Her wonderful website inspired me so much. Yet I have my own quirky personality traits too, which make me uniquely me. Just because Prem Rawat wants us to be syncronized, and all be talking about Knowledge in the same way, at the same time, does not make us automatons. Well, not in other areas of our lives, anyway. And it certainly doesn't make us part of a cult. Prem is such FUN! Let's face it, weren't many of you attracted to Him in the first place because He was so NAUGHTY, with His watch-smuggling, cigarette smoking, jet-set lifestyle, and clever jokes? I know I was! If you were honest, you'd admit it too. Andrea Eriksonn :), Who can't believe you ex-student people can't see the most obvious stuff. (because you're filtering out the GOOD)

Subject: Are you saving these anywhere? From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 16:49:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All your posts are so enlightening, Andrea. I'd almost say funny but that's my mind. I think. Are you saving these anywhere? Hope so.

Subject: Re: My neck of the woods? From: Thorin To: Mass. aspirant Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 08:27:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Mass. Aspirant Many thanks for taking the time out to describe your neck of the wood. The picture you paint is one of desperation with no real answers - as you say a 'state of disrepair'. I, for one, would be very interested in knowing what brought you to possibly wanting to receive the techniques of meditation that Maharaji shows and what made you feel that Maharaji represented something unique - presumably you did? Also am very interested in knowing what reasons were given to you by one of the premies when s/he said you should not believe what you read on the internet. What questions did the aspirants raise that were not answered except that you should watch more videos? Judging from the tone of your post I assume you are no longer an aspirant? If this is not correct what motivates you to continue? I hope you find the time to come back here - I think you will find you have some eager listeners. :) Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 07:59:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beside the maha, do you have an idea of how many cults OWN a channel in these various places ? Who, where, how many ? What the cost of the ‘free’ Viaccess card provided by Elan Communications ? How does the system work ? Suggested donation ? I’m into writing an article on the issue.

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:18:46 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: J-M This info is for the Euro braodcasts. I don't know about the Dish network in US or what they do do down under. The Elan Communications channel boadcast on Hotbird 13 East. When it first started (as Visions) you needed a Viaccess card. Since May of 2001 Elan broadcasts as Free To Air and no longer requires a conditional access (viaccess) card. Previously, I think you had to pay something like €20 pm. Elan still reserves the 'right' to broadcast encrypted (i.e. viaccess). I had a look on various other satelites broadcasting across Europe. Found Maharshi (can't remember the channel title but prob under their University banner or somesuch). Actually Elan is very tame compared to Maharshi (or whatever they call him these days). They go on and on about the Vedic sciences, with lots of charts, world governments blah blah. All of the presenters are sharply suited fellows with the exception of the main man who continues to be garlanded like he was in the 60's. Yes there are many other 'cults' broadcasting - if you count the countless number of religious channels. Some Islamic channels broadcast via multi-channel languages (incl French, English etc). one channel in particular (sorry can't remember name) has this real neat middle-east chap who speaks impecable English giving guidance to his devotees about the right lifestyle. Usually catch him justifying the different roles that men and woman have in life. Ha! And of course the USA bible-thumping, happy clappy channels. Thorin

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:20:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. Do Jehovah Witnesses also have their channel ? What about Moon and other evangelists ?

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:12:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the name of the TM/Maharishi's channel ? Do Elan Communication issue a Viaccess card to anybody asking for one, or do you have to be on the EV lists etc ?? They say it's 'free', but nothing about it.

Subject: Re: Cults on TV - TV Rawat From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:58:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J-M Re Elan Communications. It is free-to-air. That is all you need is a dish pointed to the the relevant satelite, a digital receiver and thats it. No lists to join, no cards to get, no permissions to get. Hey even ex-premies can watch it if they really want to. But I must tell you that the content is vacous, mind-warping, and denuded of anything worthwhile. The channel seems to feature some Indian guy, who is getting rather long in the tooth, seems to have a serious skin problem but is great in remembering Hallmark card contents. Beyond that the channnel contains some new-agey supermarket type music and a pulsating thingy in the bottom right hand corner indicating that even non-English listeners are welcome. :) Nope never seen any Jehovah Witnesses TV channels. They seem to concentrate on books, booklets, newpapers and the like. Rev. Moon has a large collection of various websites but does not appear to broadcast regularly via satelites. They do seem to do a lot of web-casting and occasionaly book satelite time (I think to broadcast multiple weddings). Thorin

Subject: Maharishi via satellite From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:31:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's Maharishi channeling Maharishi. :) Maharishi via satellite www.maharishi-india.org/worldwide.html

Subject: Only Mahas on TV ? From: Jean-Michel To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is totally surrealist !!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Only Mahas on TV ? From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 19:20:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are all sorts of televangelists riding the big bird in the sky. Seek God lists many Christian televangelists: http://www.seekgod.org/truth/ Here's a Muslim televangelist: http://college4.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2001/12/24/892765.xml Whole lotta TV preachers www.cbn.com/700club/

Subject: Jim has wayy too much time on his hands From: An Observer To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:45:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: only option is death ! no time left [nt] From: bill To: An Observer Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 17:13:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pussy, you're chopped liver From: PatC To: An Observer Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:47:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said to ''James'' aka ''Quiet's mate'' below - I wasn't born yesterday. Sure you're using a couple of IP numbers BUT your slip is showing in a thread below. I'm sure you know what I mean. If any other ex IT sleuths are interested in this I will show them what a creepy little weasel you really are. Roupell said in his post re Amaraoo: ''If you can't be real with Prem - who can you be real with?'' It appears that you guys can't even be real with him with your fake egalitarianism - just one of the guys; your buddy (who me - brown-nosing?). So, I don't expect any cultweasels to be real when participating on the ex forums in a synchronized fashion. If you aren't a cult spin doctor, as I've said before, you sure are one fanatically dedicated dude. Do you think you are getting special brown-nose er sorry brownie points for being so committable er committed? Are you one person, a committee - the Borg? Don't you feel sick sometimes with the complicated deceit you have to endure all the while striving to be ''simple'' as His Holeyness advises?

Subject: No way J'ose From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:19:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Notme junior. I dont have the time or the inclination. Conspiracy theories - again? Give me a break Pat....

Subject: Re: No way J'ose From: James To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 01:47:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Catwasel, It seems as though Pat likes conspiracy theories. Oh well if he wants to think that its his choice. According to his theory, from what I can gather, if your spelling is bad you are Quiet`s Mate(what does that meen?). I dont get the joke. Can some one explain that for me?

Subject: Re: No way J'ose From: Bolly Shri To: James Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 07:05:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Think about it, Thats how you work ou things remember.

Subject: Oh, Jamesie Pie From: PatC To: James Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 04:25:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just because I accepted your handle of ''James'' doesn't mean I believe it's your real name anymore than mine is Thelma. In fact I don't believe a word of what you're saying. You're a fake - as big of a figment of a committee's imagination as Cultweasel.

Subject: The Borg speak with one voice From: The real Q from Star Trek To: James Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 04:20:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :C)

Subject: Cat.... From: Cynthia To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:45:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Go back to life's grating on you. Go meditate and get clear. Didn't you just see your Master? Are you emulating him? It shows.

Subject: Re: Cat.... From: Cat To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 04:59:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which one are you?

Subject: Go back to your litter box Cat... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 11:23:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Go back to your litter box Cat... From: Cat To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 16:01:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And you? [nt] From: Cynthia To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:26:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Jim has wayy too much time on his hands From: AV To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:48:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, is it because you haven't got time on your hands that you didn't bother to answer my response to your post below...?

Subject: You're right! :) [nt] From: Jim To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:47:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: then get a hobby other than putting people down From: An Observer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:49:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim is showing you true brotherly love From: Gail To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Believe it or not, Jim actually cares about you more than Prem ever did. He does great charity work here--true service. In all liklihood, you have had more interaction with Jim than you ever had with Prem. Jim's friend committed suicide because of his involvement with Maharaji. Jim doesn't want that same fate to befall you when you find out Maharaji is a fraud. I'd say that's pretty noble!

Subject: Jim's dirty little secret From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All joking aside......I know Jim uses humor to disguise his huge heart. But premies don't see that because they are so used to Rev Rawat's fake gushy sentimentality. Jim's dirty little secret - he's a good guy (which is why I never understood the ''Jim is a Bully'' campaigns that were launched here by three or four ex-premies several times during my tenure - but I'll let sleeping lady dogs lie.) When I first saw that the premies who ''participate synchronizedly'' on our forums cannot see his altruistic and philanthropic nature (albeit camouflaged,) I wondered if they were clever enough to deliberately pretend to misunderstand him but then I realized that it was probably because they are so ignorant of any form of love except that of the blowhard braggard puffed-up pompous pretentious two-faced Rev Rawat. Rev Prem's dirty little secret - he's an irresponsible greeeeeeeeeeeeeedy little piggy - oink oink all the way to the bank.

Subject: An Observer seems to be obsessed by Jim From: Alternate Observer To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:06:12 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Get yourself a name, observer [nt] From: Livia To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:56:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To Liv: His Name.. From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:07:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is Raven.... as in Raven bores....

Subject: Re: then get a hobby From: AV To: An Observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to whom are you talking?

Subject: Visions has a new hobby From: gail To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 30-year works of Maharaji in film, audiotape, videotape, still photography and text are stored in the archives. You can bet Prem has copies of everything he has done! Archives are documented and preserved to be used over again. (AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN--YES WE REPACT THIS JUNK INTO VARIOUS COMPILATIONS TO BE SOLD AS THE LATEST VERSTION OF TOP HITS! Back in 1998, almost every video was a new extract of some old rehashed junk. Much material is deteriorating due to the ravages of time. Particularly the film and video produced prior to 1990, much of which is in jeopardy and some of the video material from 1986-7 has been found to already be shedding oxide. Why do they care? They already tried to recall all the old stuff anyway. Remember? We were asked to send in any old AND IT IS DIVINE mags,WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI, old video tapes, and any other crap that might be incriminating. Even though restoration has begun, in the last year 22 original masters (including some events and two interviews from 1971) had already deteriorated and are lost forever. Is Prem pretending that he has lost videos of himself parading around as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Geez, Maharaji, you should have come EPO. We have lots of this garbage. Tell us what you need. We'll be glad to send it to you for a CONTRIBUTION. However, Maharaji we only have three of the 20 programs you did in Kissimmee, 1978 which we will be glad to send you a copy of. Why didn't we get to see most of these?. Was it because you were drunk for most of the 'event' or was it because of the preposterous claims you made? Archiving is a huge undertaking. The first step of extensive sorting and inventory of materials has been completed. The older archives are now being kept in a film and video vault. It is climate controlled, providing ideal conditions for the best preservation of media elements, and monitored for heat, smoke, fire, flood and intrusion. We are especially concerned about the intrusion aspect. Some of this material is highly controversial and meant for X-rated eyes only. Technology now allows us to convert historical records to digital and maintain them. Cataloging and data base design are projects now being planned, but are dependent on the level of contributions. Of course, Prem doesn't really need any achives if his message is all the same. How come he's not selling tapes of himself at 13-35 in their entire unabridged version?

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: AV To: gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:20:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a joke , right? burying information (the new dirty word), revisionism, and preserving the past at the same time, providing there are sufficient 'contributions........any body make sense of this? BTW, was M really pissed at Kissimee? (or kissed at Pissimee?)... Is THAT why I felt so f******g weirded out? Elvisly yours, AV

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:57:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember a bad night at Kissimee, but don't recall if it was 78 or 79. Maharaji yelled at us all night and told us we were all useless, or words to that effect. A lot of people cried and got upset and quite a few left. Is there a new theory about his pique that night, then? Love, the barren old hag

Subject: Livia--you are right - 1979 From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:17:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup. I made a mistake about the year. Kissimmee, 1978 is the right year.

Subject: Re: Visions has a new hobby From: AV To: gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:19:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a joke , right? burying information (the new dirty word), revisionism, and preserving the past at the same time, providing there are sufficient 'contributions........any body make sense of this? BTW, was M really pissed at Kissimee? (or kissed at Pissimee?)... Is THAT why I felt so f******g weirded out? Elvisly yours, AV

Subject: NO JOKE -CHECK Visions--archives new hobby From: Gail To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:47:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:19:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Every few years or so (no exaggeration!), CD deigns to speak. He's done so again. Here, from LG, are the words of a premie: [Jerry]: So what is he a guide for? Who needs him if he's not Perfect Master, if he doesn't have the power to reveal God? [CD]: There are those who question, question, question. And then there are those who listen and learn something. Note the unique commingling of Kung Fu 'Grasshopper' talk and Empire Strikes Back Yoda. I still think it would sound better if he did it right, maybe something more like: 'Those who question, question, question, there are' but that's just me. CD cannot, will not, EVER have a real discussion. Swear to God. Any of you newer people don't believe me, he's in rare open (for CD, that is) form on LG. Go try it. He will not, cannot do it. So that's why he hates questions. They're the pesky bait that he knows is just there to lure him out of his rabbit hole. Funny in the extreme, then, when he invokes the spirit of Socrates of all people a little further on! I have found Maharaji to be a good teacher. He discusses a subtle and difficult subject. I have not always understood what he said, not always believed what he said or not always liked what he said. Yet overall I have learned valuable lessons from listening to him. And practising K has opened my awareness to something beyond typical thinking. Well you can say that again, CD. He's opened your mind to cult thinking, buddy! You know, the kind where you don't even want to look in there because you've been told not to? That one? Anyway, if CD were a regular human being saying what he said there, you'd rightly think he's opened the door to all sorts of interesting questions. Like what exactly has Maharaji said that he didn't like? Or understand? Hey, what did Maharaji say he didn't BELIEVE? And after all that, what's left in Maharaji's words that make him a good teacher? What were his valuable lessons? Listen, I would just love to see any of you -- AV, Livia, Bai Ji, Boli Shri, or any of the other new people try to ask him any of this stuff. It's like talking to the Sphinx, you'll find. But, please, try ... prove me wrong. Hell, I don't mind. It's all entertainment. I don't think it can be proved that M is good or bad for you. The debate will take place but there will not be any winners. People who appreciate M as a teacher have usually understood something that is worthwhile to them. Yeah its a personal thing. A personal revelation. Not something completely explained in a book. The bottom line of what M has taught is look inside yourself and find answers in an experience. Some people will never beleive that such an experience is real. Some people understand that experience. Yes, it is too simple and eludes logic. But the foundations of our existence eludes logic. I have said many times that scientific theories and explanations are only models for an infinite reality that can never be comprehended with our ideas. The best scientists and mathmeticians know this. People knowing a bit about the subjects often don't. This, of course, is a COMPLETE and, by now I'll say wilfull, aberration of how and what scientists think. Complete. If logic was of no use there wouldn't even BE any science. No, CD is a liar herre and he knows it. One more reason why he won't -- never, ever, won't -- defend his ideas in debate. I read the other day that Pythagoras was starved to death after being forced to take refuge in a temple in his old age. Socrates was condemned by righteous intellectual type people. Certain ways of viewing the world are often not understood or welcome. Yes, and what a bizarro world this is, isn't it, when someone can use great, vibrant, courageous and persistent minds as poster boys for the biggest 'Know Nothing' scam of all time? Shameless, isn't it? The very last thing in the world that CD would ever even think of engaging in is a Socratic dialogue. How dare he even mention his name, the worm! The world today is in a chaos of ideas. These conflicting ideas are not leading to a better life for people. At this time I feel that the message to feel peace inside in a simple experience should be welcome news. We will not debate our way to 'peace'. That seems pretty obvious. This is CD in his Klattu ('The Day the Earth Stood Still') costume: 'Greetings, earthlings, I come in peace....' Can you imagine a world of CD's? I guess it's like imagining a world of Heaven's Gaters or any other cult members. People whose goal is to avoid thought scare me. It's such a compromise of human nature it feels like a betrayal or something. Pod people like CD can smile because they are in 'smile' mode. 'Are we not men? We are premies!' Jerry, you say M is a fraud. Fine, to you he is. To others he is a valuable teacher. We will disagree and each go with what our personal experience has been. I hope that people will find that there is a common unity and peace beyond ideas. Jerry, if one day in your meandering in the arrid desert you come upon a little boy, and you ask that little boy, he will show you the secret of peace beyond ideas. Until then, go and be with yourself. (I can't say 'go with peace' because peace is not yours. To have peace you have to be like the Sphinx. You're not even trying.)

Subject: He is on pot when he says a lot. [nt] From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 17:18:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:26:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Could you clarify something here? Aperantly M has never read a book, I don't want to go into the issue of adolescant males and their lack of reading at this juncture,but I do wonder about these great thinkers he so often quotes. Is it the case that in being surrounded by yes men and women, who would not wish to diminish him while in his company none of them has had the temerity to inform him that a few loose quotes from the back of a cereal packet doth no an insight into the philosophy make? When I read in an earlier posting how the anointed one never read a book and put this fact with the nodding dogs he is surrounded by it went some way to explaining why his diatribes have become increasingly meanmingless over the years. I assume that during his catholic school days he was like me made to read a little.

Subject: Re: Analyse this -- CD SPEAKS! (from LG) From: Unspecified Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:13:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall that at the Alexander Palace Guru Puja in London in '73 there were giant paintings hanging from all the pillars, supposedly of previous Perfect Masters. One picture was of Socrates, although how such a rationalist can be associated with the abandonment of mind defeats me. CD's comment, that Socrates was 'condemned by righteous intellectual type people' is a side swipe at thinkers, but CD is employing an unjustifiable spin: my information is that Socrates was actually condemned by a bunch of politicos trying to defend Athenian democracy. CD is twisting history to support his anti-mind stance. Neville

Subject: One should not speak ill of the dead. [nt] From: PatC channeling his dead mother To: Unspecified Neville Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:08:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Amaroo Day 3 (Final update): Bovine Dung From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:23:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the updated version of the report we've previously seen. Just a few comments: A matter of proportion As with all our Amaroo 2002 reports, what follows is an informal account which in no way reflects the full scope of the event. THE MORNING OF SUNDAY, 21 APRIL It was yet another captivating day to hear Maharaji talk. 'The preciousness of each breath,' he said sublimely, ' does not diminish with quantity.' That's sublime? Uh oh, looks like we're in for treacly-servility-on-a-stick again. It's a field report from a real Happy Clapper. Amaroo can be a noisy place - the early morning cacophony of bird song; but it can also be a quiet place - never more so than during events when the lingering silence of nature that spreads across the land is somehow amplified by the quiet concentration of thousands of people listening to Maharaji. On this, the last morning of the event, he talked about one of life's cruel ironies: that we take the ones we love the most for granted. 'Ultimately,' he said, 'we care for them the least...' Hm, could he possibly be referring to the wife he's humiliated for years by his quasi-open relationship with his mistress, not to mention other pecadillos with fish-farmed premie women or is he, rather, talking about his mother and siblings? Whoever he's talking about, it's a very telling high mark of cynicism that not everyone can relate to thankfully. Kind of like the guy who comes up to you says 'You know how nasty it gets when you've been up on a four-day bender on every drug you can find and you start to lose it so bad you can't even TELL when you're driving, let alone IF you're on the right side of the road?' Sorry, Maharaji, no I DON'T know what you mean. But we have to understand the value of the person who is 'kind enough to remind us that today is precious, so special. Not that it is going to unfold, but just that it is happening.' It was not important what you called this person – guru, satguru, master or teacher. Ah yes, true love indeed. Forget your OTHER loved ones. You never really loved them that much to begin with. Now your guru, satguru, whatever you call him, HE's a different story. 'Somebody criticises every one of them: 'Master reminds me of the slave days.' 'Teacher reminds me of the classroom…'' 'It is not as through the names creates the person. The person has to be there first.' Wrong! The concept was there first, everything else is just filler. That's how HE got there, after all. Big fat conceptual gaping hole when Shri Hans died and all the lost little premies are wandering around like the little chickie in the kid's book, 'Are You My Mother?' only it's more like 'Are You My Satguru?' He described how we are in awe of architectural marvels such as the Pyramids and the Taj Mahal, but 'do not have the eye' to see the wonders of the whole creation. 'Nobody looks at people and says what a great accomplishment… People don't realise it is the people who made the Pyramids…' Facile! Not worthy of further comment. Wrong in all directions. Wrong in fact, wrong in inference. 'Each one of us is living our life on this earth, wanting from the depth of our heart to be happy, from the depths of our heart to be content…' But 'who can remind you of that real responsibility' to find that happiness? So many people are keen to remind us of our many other responsibilities. And people say to me: 'What about the practicalities. I am torn.' THE REAL GEOMETRY OF JOY In response, he talked about the geometry of joy and the golden rule of proportions used by the great architect Frank Lloyd Wright in many of his works. It was important to establish the golden rule of proportions in our lives by remembering what is important, and making that a priority. Oh great! That's what I needed! A new, completely forced and useless metaphor to add to all the other completely forced and useless metaphors he's given me for the past thirty years. Yes, the Geometry of Joy, why didn't I think of that? Just goes to show, we're not all cut out to be gurus, or satgurus, or masters, or whatever you want to call them ... He advised that we don't be too hard on ourselves: 'Do not try to change the nature of your forgetting.' Ah yes, only the guru can bore you to tears in JUST...THAT...WAY... turning whatever boring homily or truism inside out or upside down, just for the hell of it. Yes, I know, this is the stock and trade of every dumb-ass sermon in every dumb-ass church on any given Sunday. But who does it best, eh? Credit where it's due ... Our minds tell us that we must never forget and thus do not offer an easy avenue out of such dilemmas. 'I've thought about this,' he said. 'And we do need to forget.' The same way as with a computer if we don't clear the hard drive it will eventually stop working.' Again prioritising our lives was the key. 'Write a note in the notebook of the heart, so that it will come up again and again. That is what love is all about. It is not a static thing. It needs to live. It needs to breathe. It is not a picture on the wall; it is something very real.' Hey that's brilliant! The Notebook of the Heart! And to think that I almost listened to those assholes at work trying to guilt-trip me for leaving them to finish the project while I came here -- again. What do they know? Well, tell you what. I'm just going to make myself a little note here in my Notebook of the Heart to show them just how incredible this all really is ... I know! I'll show them that Leaders Magazine article! 'Appreciation of Knowledge has to be there every day,' he continued, 'so does appreciation of that person who reminds us. Without that person Knowledge would just become a static thing.' Have you ever known anyone like this? Who spends all this time reminding you how you have to, above all else, keep appreciating him? Couldn't be a ... CULT LEADER, could it? No, that'd be too weird ... Returning to proportion he cautioned that because we have a limited amount of energy we have to ration it. The best advise is to say to yourself: 'What is important?' 'The art is not to rescue yourself from being angry – that's impossible. The answer is to rescue yourself before you get there – that's possible.' He used the analogy of Indian irrigation: 'They have to channel the water to their fields. They cannot move the canal. It is too big. This is what you have to do. This is your time, so now you have got to dig the channel so that you can drink the water.' Just another coded way of justifying stonewalling his critics, no? We come empty-handed but we don't have to leave empty-handed. 'What a powerful statement that is,' he said. ' I think about that so much.' Again the cosmological question, what the hell is he talking about? Door prizes on the way out? His salvation? What? Now is the time, he went on, to channel that water bring forth and raise those crops, to extract and receive. 'This is what you are good at. You are good at receiving, so receive. You are not so good at giving.' No, bud, that's YOU, you're talking about, with that not so good at giving thing BOVINE DUNG He described how he has coined a new and 'polite' phrase to replace the harsh description of all the nonsense that gets talked and passed along as authoritative information. To roars of laughter he introduced the audience to 'bovine dung.' Here's why I even bothered -- 'roars of laughter'????? At this completely nothing -- why, it's not EVEN a joke, it's not even a smile, it's, it's, it's worse than a lame pun, it's ... it's NOTHING!!! And it elicited ROARS of laughter?? He talked of two kinds of party. The first he described as an 'assortment of bovine dung.' Here, some people find it difficult to talk and have to break down their inhibitions by drinking because 'being sober they would never be able to do it.' Now, really, what would HE know about THAT? It makes them unconscious so that they can spend their time exchanging bovine dung. Don't tell me. I bet every time he said that, yeah, that's right -- ROARS OF LAUGHTER .... The other kind of party is going on within, and no liquid is required to break down any inhibitions, going there makes you conscious. What a brilliant illustration! He explained that the words we use such as service inhibit us in his work which is now global and breaking the boundaries of culture and how liberating it would be to break free from them. We don't want to be like the person who is driving a car while looking at the speedo and not out of the windows – and then after the inevitable accident, he justifies himself by saying: 'Well, I was driving at the speed limit.' We have to take a fundamental approach – 'to help in any which way I can.' Not: 'I have to do service…' 'Most importantly for the first time,' he explained, 'Knowledge is being offered. Before it was not being offered, you got lucky.' In Sri Maharaj Ji's day, people literally used to camp out where he lived because they knew that he would return there. 'All the words we are creating are inhibiting us. For a long time it was just Maharaji, I don't care what they call me. Don't just latch on to a new name. Modernisation is just to change the world. We don't want to modernise Knowledge. We don't want to make Knowledge more palatable; it is already palatable… 'We need to unstick ourselves from all the barriers we have created.' Yeah, like your history, your track record, your promises, prophecies, threats ... all them damn barriers. 'If you feel comfortable with Knowledge and have a wide palette of materials available everyone can take an interest in telling people or giving them materials.' I'm signing up. Anything with all those resources just has to be good ..... THE AFTERNOON EVENT Done. It was a truly 'lovely' afternoon In the heat of the afternoon sun, 3,000 people sat on the grass in a field - in absolute silence. They were awaiting the arrival of Maharaji - who had promised to come and hold a further 'interactive' session. Some were contemplating the things they might tell him about if they had the chance.. Others were contemplating something a little deeper - and more private stilll. You could almost taste the tranquility in the air - were it not already so sweet with the scent of eucalyptus bark from the trees on the edge of the clearing. And then, a golf buggy drew up silently - and Maharaji, resplendent in red casual shirt... walked straight up to the makeshift stage and began. One of the first people to take the Microphone was Maria from Vancouver. She explained how s he had never spoken to Maharaji before and her friends thought this was odd. He said: 'Well, now you have spoken to me!' She replied: 'Yes, now I can tell them we are really tight.' Raising what was to be the topic of the day, she spoke of her endless longing to speak to - and be near to her teacher. Maharaji asked her if she liked the feeling of longing. She said, 'I love it!' Next came an elderly lady from Japan who invited Maharaji to visit Japan. Maharaji complimented her on her English and then pointed out that he had so many places he wanted to go - and so many places he had not been to for such a long time. He went on to speak about how well the Portugese were doing for getting so many new people interested. He spoke of how 'political' it could become in a country when people fall out with one another. He spoke of the games we get caught up in: It is too easy to complain. Don't climb over people's heads. Work jointly. He described his aviation team... and how important it was for people to work together when flying. Likewise, he said, the area of propagation was no place in which to go making mistakes! Then he told a story. Once, a master was going for a walk. He heard cries of 'help, help!' He saw a man, caught up in a thorn bush. Ripped clothes. Crying help. The master untangled him and took him home. He gave him new clothes (his old ones were shredded.) The man was grateful. He ended up getting Knowledge. But then one day, he started getting into all his concepts. So the master said: 'OK, go to the jungle and get me some berries.' And then, again, it is 'help, help!!!' The master said: How come you got caught here. He said: 'I could free myself but you gave me those clothes and it would have torn them.' The master said: 'Never mind the clothes. They are like concepts. You need to be FREE! And so it is with us: we think we are immune from concepts - but we are none of us are invulnerable to fallling out with one another. A guy from Miami asked Maharaji if he could come and retire at Amaroo. Given the ages of some of his students, Maharaji said that he had been giving the subject of retirement some thought A young lady also from Miami stood up at the back. She said she would likke to get closer to Maharaji- so he invited her to come sit at the front... which after a little persuasion, she did. She said she had no family - but to her, Maharaji is everything. Maharaji described himself as being like a river, moving fast. He said there is never a dull moment around him... Later this proved very true as Gail from Melbourne said hello and Maharaji said G'day in reply. She told Maharaji about her kids, her friends, her plans to leave Melbourne and her dog, a border collie who doesn't like to wash.... much to the amjusement of all. The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk.

Subject: Amaroo stuff in bold and your From: Carlos-Thanx for putting the To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 20:19:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: reactions in regular print. It made it easier to read the parts I enjoyed! What is going on with you, Pat? You used to act as if you understood that anti-sang here is just as inapropriate here as satsang would be on F7. More and more you seem to have forgotten that.

Subject: I'm not two-faced, Carlos From: PatC To: Carlos-Thanx for putting the Date Posted: Wed, May 01, 2002 at 03:05:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I won't be posting over on LG anymore for that very reason. I say what I have to say in the same voice anywhere on the net. The thing is that I can say what I have to say anywhere and most people won't bat an eyelid. However the stupid new age guru crap that you have to say is only accepted and not challenged on LG. Everywhere else you would be laughed off the net as a silly adult stuck in a stunted infantile cult. You don't post satsang here, not because of your self-proclaimed adherence to ''netiquette'' but because you know you'd be laughed at. I posted unabashedly as an ex-cultist on LG because I don't mind being criticised but I think you don't like it too much. Anyway you seem to be glad that I posted the link so you could ooh and aah over Rev Rawat's Hallmark cliches. Where's your gratitude? :C)

Subject: Re: Amaroo Day 3 (Final update): Bovine Dung From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 22:08:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the laugh, Jim!

Subject: retard rawat is cruel From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 17:24:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post Jimmie He turns the screws on his hapless victims and burdens them with his false hopes. I'm glad you take the time. You make the cult death throes more educational and fun.

Subject: You missed it, Jim From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:06:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this one is OBVIOUS: '...On this, the last morning of the event, he talked about one of life's cruel ironies: that we take the ones we love the most for granted. 'Ultimately,' he said, 'we care for them the least...'' He's setting himself up for retirement. To insure an 'adequate' income, he's guilting the premies into making sure they 'care' about him. After all, didn't he deliver on every single promise he made?

Subject: I flunked geometry... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:15:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Here's Frank's quote: Architecture is the triumph of Human Imagination over materials, methods, and men, to put man into possession of his own Earth. It is at least the geometric pattern of things, of life, of the human and social world. It is at best that magic framework of reality that we sometimes touch upon when we use the word 'order.' - Frank Lloyd Wright, 1930, 1937 P.S. Architects have their own ''cult-speak'' :)

Subject: Re: Amaroo Day 3 (Final update): Bovine Dung From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:49:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Appreciation of Knowledge has to be there every day,' he continued, 'so does appreciation of that person who reminds us. Without that person Knowledge would just become a static thing.' Have you ever known anyone like this? Who spends all this time reminding you how you have to, above all else, keep appreciating him? Couldn't be a ... CULT LEADER, could it? No, that'd be too weird ... Bingo! 'We need to unstick ourselves from all the barriers we have created.' Yeah, like your history, your track record, your promises, prophecies, threats ... all them damn barriers. again...Bingo! The guy is clearly a self-serving, waffling simpleton who just so happens to know a good opportunity when he sees one. Curiously, he still has some adherents who think he's the wisest guy on the planet! That's showbiz folks! :)

Subject: You have no sense of humor, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:38:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''...fish-farmed premie women?'' That'll keep me giggling for the rest of today.

Subject: Blonde fish, I assume. [nt] From: The Other Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:11:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This wasn't funny either, Jim From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:44:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '...when Shri Hans died and all the lost little premies are wandering around like the little chickie in the kid's book, 'Are You My Mother?' only it's more like 'Are You My Satguru?' hehe

Subject: Is this stuff funny or what? (OT) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:45:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ted Danson (Cheers) is playing the 'medium' James Van Praagh in a movie and they both appeared on Larry King the other night. Danson's a full believer, which is kind of funny in a completely pathetic kind of way. At one point, Van Praagh starts taking calls. The results are hilarious. Really, anyone who can't see the sleight of mouth tricks below must not be looking. What do you think?: KING: You'll see it Sunday night April 28 and it concludes Tuesday night April 30. We'll remain with James Van Praagh and we'll take your calls. We go to Ontario. Hello. CALLER: Good evening, Larry. Mr. Van Praagh. My mother's passed away now. It has been four years. I was wondering if you might be able to tell me perhaps maybe if she's trying to get in touch with me some way? VAN PRAAGH: I will tell you something. I want to ask you, on your wall is there a picture that fell off the wall? Or that's loose and came down? That you remember, a frame that you picked up off the floor? CALLER: In the living room? VAN PRAAGH: Or a frame that fell down on a shelf or living room that came down on the floor. Because I'm being shown -- I don't know why I'm being shown this on a wall with a lot of pictures. You understand? And a lot of family photos, too. I'm seeing them altogether. One of them came down or fell off. CALLER: Well, there's a table where they fall off sometimes. VAN PRAAGH: I want to ask you, did you pick up the frame or picture that fell over? That's what I'm being told that she was there pushing some picture over that fell down. That's what I'm being told. KING: The mother was? VAN PRAAGH: Uh-huh. I want to ask you was there a facility you had to put her in or take care of her? CALLER: No. She was just in the hospital. VAN PRAAGH: The hospital. I don't know -- well, a facility is a hospital. I'm also being told that also I feel like two days before she passes over, she's completely out of it. CALLER: Yes, she was, yes. VAN PRAAGH: Completely out of it and didn't know where she was. But this picture thing is coming like pushing a picture down or picking up a frame. I want to tell you there's a small dog there with her. I don't know what this means. CALLER: There's a dog that my daughters walk every day. He's down the street a couple of doors down. VAN PRAAGH: I don't like that. It's a dog that's passed over. It's not a dog here, it is a dog that passed over that greets her when she comes into spirit. KING: All right. Thank you. To Clearwater, Florida. With James Van Praagh. Hello. CALLER: Yes. Larry? For your guest, James. VAN PRAAGH: Yes, ma'am. How are you. CALLER: I'm very good. Thank you. Good to talk with you. We lost our father about 19 months ago. Of course we're all very sad but we'd like to know if there's any unfinished business he'd want us to do? He was just that kind of person. And how he is. VAN PRAAGH: Are there three in the family by the way? CALLER: Yes, there are. VAN PRAAGH: Three of you get together. Two females and a male, that's what I'm looking at. This man shows me a lot of military. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: That was a big deal to him. He's having a reunion, reunited with people that were in the military with him. I like the water with this man, I like seeing the water, being around the water with him. I don't know if it was the oceanfront, but I see water with him. I'm going to tell you I feel it was a heart condition also. So now why he has a heart problem? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Who has a heart, chest condition. CALLER: No, he didn't. VAN PRAAGH: Hold on. Was there someone in the family that went for a cardiogram. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Who was that, please? A brother or something? CALLER: A sister. VAN PRAAGH: Would you tell her it's going to be OK? I feel she is worried about the heart and this cardiogram didn't -- it looks like she has to go back for another one. KING: That has nothing to do with the dead person, right? That's picking up something else, right? CALLER: He is worried about that? VAN PRAAGH: Yes, he's concerned about her. And he's telling me to let you know that she'll be OK. But it feels like it is not finished yet. But the heart thing, do you understand that? She has to go back in and finish it. CALLER: How about my mother? Anything for her? VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you something very much. I don't know if your mother has headaches, but there's something about her head that he's talking to me about with your mother. The head area he's talking about with headaches. CALLER: Head area. OK. VAN PRAAGH: I just want to tell you that this man comes to your mother a lot. He comes behind her. I don't know what that means... KING: When you say like headaches, what are you hearing in your head to say headaches? VAN PRAAGH: I'm getting a thought of headaches. And I'm seeing this lady and behind her head. KING: Do you see the man? VAN PRAAGH: No, not in that situation. KING: Sometimes you do? VAN PRAAGH: Sometimes I very clearly do. KING: Even though it is a spirit. VAN PRAAGH: They're very real, solid people. KING: Rochester, New York. Hello? New Hampshire, I'm sorry, go ahead. CALLER: I lost my husband in March of '99. I'd like to know if you could tell me something about him. Thank you for the privilege to be able to talk to you. Like a prayer being answered. Thank you, Larry and James. VAN PRAAGH: What is your first name? CALLER: Janet. VAN PRAAGH: When I tune into your voice, I'm going to tell you I have to give what I'm getting. I want to tell you it feels like there's some medical problems going on here recently with you. CALLER: With me? VAN PRAAGH: Yes. Do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because I want to tell you that there's concern about you with medical problems and seeing two different doctors. You understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: I want to tell you that there's a specialist that you just recently saw, do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: This man that is your husband, I believe he is, I am just telling there is two men behind you. He's helping you with this situation. I don't know why I'm going to your knees or legs. Did he have problem with the knees or legs? CALLER: Lately I have. VAN PRAAGH: There's some problem with leg or knee, which needs to be looked at again, but that is one thing. The other medical thing is something different. You know that. But be careful of the knee area. CALLER: All right. VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you something, there's two men there. One must be your father. Because there's two men coming in strongly. I also see a Jim or Jimmy person also. I'm going to tell you something to do with -- it sounds strange. Who collects rocks? CALLER: Who collects rocks? VAN PRAAGH: Boulders or rocks. I don't know what that means. If your husband had a rock in the house or rocks or collected something with rock collection. Geology. KING: Thank you, ma'am. We're back with James Van Praagh and don't forget the story of his book, 'Heaven And Earth' will be on CBS Sunday and Tuesday night. Tomorrow night on this program, King Constantine, the king of Greece in exile in Great Britain. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: James Van Praagh reminds me that this movie is based on his first book, 'Talking to Heaven,' and how it all started on this program, right? You came on this show. VAN PRAAGH: That's right, December of '97. We had 6,000 printed initially, because they didn't believe in the book. The publisher said nobody will buy a book about talking to dead people. I said, it will be a number one best seller. I'm a psychic. I know these things. Listen to me. And after your show, thank you, God, Larry, it went to 600,000 within three months. And now it's, gosh, 30 different languages around the world, millions of copies. (CROSSTALK) KING: I know when you were first booked, I thought what the heck is this? VAN PRAAGH: What the heck is this. KING: Winterhaven, Florida, with James Van Praagh. Hello. CALLER: Hi. How are you tonight? KING: Hi. VAN PRAAGH: Good. How are you? CALLER: Fine. VAN PRAAGH: How can I help you? CALLER: I lost a daughter in 1987, and I'd like to hear from her. KING: How old was she? CALLER: She was 15. VAN PRAAGH: Was this cancer condition at all? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Was it blood related? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: How was she killed? CALLER: Hit by a car. VAN PRAAGH: What's her first name? CALLER: Christy. Her first name or mine? VAN PRAAGH: No, her first name. CALLER: It was Christy. VAN PRAAGH: Let me ask you something, because I don't -- you know, I just get what I get and I can only give you something that I get. Was there a baby born after she passed over, in the family? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because this might sound very strange to you, but she wants me to tell you that she's a guide for this baby. I don't know if it's a brother's baby. CALLER: There's been three. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Does the brother have a baby? CALLER: Let me see -- there's been four girls born since her. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Well, there's a baby there that the brother has that she's a guide to also. I'm going to tell you that someone in the family is a teacher, OK, or wanted to go into teaching. All right? I'm going to tell you that this girl -- she forgives the person that did this to her, very much so. And I'm telling you she's telling me she came to your dreams just recently? CALLER: I very seldom remember my dreams. VAN PRAAGH: Well, she said she's been in your dreams. And I also see a kitten. And I don't know why I'm being shown a cat or kitten. But I don't know if she had a kitten or a cat? CALLER: I called her cat. Those were her initials. VAN PRAAGH: OK. Well, maybe why she's showing me this. But that's what I'm being given you. I'll tell you right now, she's there at night a lot around you in your dream state. I'm going ask you also, did you have a little vegetable garden when she was alive? CALLER: Her grandmother did. VAN PRAAGH: OK. And is her grandmother in the spirit now? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: OK. She's talking about helping her with that garden. Do you remember her helping with the vegetable garden? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: You remember that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: With tomatoes and carrots, and she's talking about helping grandma doing this. She's with this grandmother, which must be your mother or something. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: She's connected with her with you. CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: OK? I'm going to tell you something also. I don't know if there's a watch of hers you have and also a locket of some sort, but she's talking about that. I also want to tell you one more thing. Is there a footstool in your house? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Well, who puts their feet up? She helps someone put their feet up with a pillow underneath their feet. I don't know if she's helping grandma, but she's showing me putting a pillow underneath someone's feet. CALLER: May have been my mother. VAN PRAAGH: I think -- would you check that out? KING: OK. I thank you. Boy. Brownsville, Texas, hello. CALLER: Good evening. KING: Hi. CALLER: Hi. I had a cousin who passed away five years ago. She was taken away very quickly. And I was just wondering if she had anything to say to me or my sister who took it very hard. VAN PRAAGH: Well, you know, just because you want to contact someone doesn't mean that person is going to show up. So I got to tell you that first of all. And what I do is just tune into -- the way it works is I tune into your voice and whatever happens happens. I'm going to tell you something which I pick up around you, too. This might sound very strange. But I feel there's a man who committed suicide. And I don't know if your association with this person is through the school days, like a classmate of yours. And I want to go back a little bit, but I feel there's a man here who committed suicide. And I'm seeing it done with pills. OK? CALLER: With pills? VAN PRAAGH: Yeah. Now, do you have a younger brother at all? CALLER: Yes, I do. VAN PRAAGH: Would you please ask him if that's an association he has with suicides. Because he's talking about a younger brother of yours and a connection with him. And there's a suicide here. I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that. The message is to give his mother -- and I get the name Michael. CALLER: Yes, that's my brother. VAN PRAAGH: I'll tell you, he's telling me to tell Michael about a suicide. He'll know who he is, this man is, because he went to school with him. Now it's all coming in. CALLER: He said to tell my brother? VAN PRAAGH: Yes. CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: And would you tell Michael to tell this guy's mom that he's all right. CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: OK? CALLER: OK. VAN PRAAGH: And a message for the mother, too, from him. As proof, validation, would you please -- he's telling me that the mother just recently bought a new brush for her hair. It might sound strange to you. But if you please give that information, she'll know that's from her son. That little bit of information. Do you understand? The new brush. Tell Michael. Thank you. KING: We'll be back with James Van Praagh and more calls after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: James Van Praagh, Ted Danson with us earlier. The film, 'Living With The Dead' will air Sunday night, and conclude on Tuesday night on CBS. Tomorrow night, King Constantine of Greece. The next caller is Brunswick, Maine. Hello. CALLER: Hi. KING: Hi. CALLER: I had a brother who was shot in 1994. And in the beginning they said that it was suicide, but when my family -- we all went down to Texas, and then they said that it was -- they didn't know if it was murder or suicide and he was also robbed. Can you tell me if -- VAN PRAAGH: I feel there were two people involved here, and I feel there's a name Robert which is involved here. I don't know what that means. CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: No, do you know the murderer who murdered him? CALLER: Well, the kid was like 23. VAN PRAAGH: Do you know his name. CALLER: It was Sean. VAN PRAAGH: Who is the Robert involved? CALLER: I don't know. VAN PRAAGH: There's a Robert involved in this also. CALLER: Really? KING: Was he murdered? VAN PRAAGH: I feel he was murdered. I also feel there was money involved here. And I feel some drugs involved here, I really do. You know, your brother -- God bless him, but I don't think he wasn't telling you honestly... CALLER: My brother was a contractor in Dallas, Texas. And when our family all got down there, he was robbed of jewelry in a strong box. He was a major contractor and he made a lot of money building. VAN PRAAGH: Yes, I think that he had another lifestyle, also. I don't think he -- but it seems when he portrays -- KING: Is he telling you this? VAN PRAAGH: I'm feeling this, on an intuitive level. CALLER: Really? VAN PRAAGH: I'm not feeling him here. I'm not picking him up at all. I'm just telling her what I am feeling psychic intuitively. But I'm not feeling him. But I'm telling you that I know that this man led two different lives. And I really feel this way. And was he married once for a brief period? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: A very short period. Because there's something about this, I don't know why. CALLER: Yes. KING: Now I am amazed. Thank you, ma'am. When you pick that up, from where? Like you picked up that he was married for a brief period. From where? VAN PRAAGH: Well, it's energy. KING: Did he say to you that he was married for a brief period? Did a voice come into your head? Explain it to me. VAN PRAAGH: Well, you know, many times when I do this. I'll have spirits next to me or in front of me, and they'll talk to me, I'll get it very strongly. Or other times I'll just tune into on a psychic level, an intuitive level, which means this energy. I tune into her voice and I pick up these things. With him, I did not feel him next to me, saying this to me. It was something I was picking up. KING: Infeld (ph), Connecticut. Hello. CALLER: Hi, Larry. I love your show. Hey James. VAN PRAAGH: Hey, how are you? You have great energy. CALLER: Thank you. VAN PRAAGH: A lot of movement around you soon, but it feels like a move soon very much with you. CALLER: Really? VAN PRAAGH: Yes, geographically. I don't know feels like it. KING: What's your question. CALLER: My question is I lost my mom last year, and my daughter about ten years ago. And I was wondering if they're together. And I also wonder if it was my fault that I lost my baby? KING: How old was your daughter? CALLER: She was stillborn. VAN PRAAGH: Yes. You know, it was not your fault that you lost your daughter because that was a divine plan for her. She had to go through that. That was not your fault whatsoever, so you should not do that to yourself. Anybody who has had that experience, that situation, really should realize that it is not your fault. There's a bigger plan here OK? I want to tell you that I feel a mother around you and your sister, but there is also another lady there. And a man there. I really have to tell you that. I think there's a twin somewhere in the family, as well. OK? CALLER: A twin that has passed or... VAN PRAAGH: I don't know. I'm being told about twins in the family. CALLER: My sister has twin daughters. VAN PRAAGH: OK. There are twins in the family. And these people are around the twins. CALLER: Oh, good. I'm so glad. VAN PRAAGH: All right. Like guides of some sort to them. There is artwork. Someone is starting to do artwork. CALLER: I'm going to enroll my son and my niece in art. And my brother is a graphic designer. VAN PRAAGH: Well, that's art. They're talking to me about doing these things. I want to tell you that you're a wonderful person. You have a very good heart, a very big heart. And you're a healer. Also, I want to tell you that if you started playing the piano you should go back to it. CALLER: I want to learn to play. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I'm being told by your mom that you need to go with that piano, because she's been pressing you to do the piano. Do you understand that? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: And just a couple days ago you did something with a piano music or looking at a piano. And you thought about either playing it or calling someone about that. CALLER: Yes. With my little boy. VAN PRAAGH: Do you understand that? Just recently that happened. That is what she telling me here. KING: Good luck, dear. That was great. Now, Pittsfield, Massachusetts. Hello. CALLER: Hi, Mr. Van Praagh. VAN PRAAGH: Hello. CALLER: Nice talking with you. I lost my mom in December '97, my dad in January 2000. I was wondering if you... VAN PRAAGH: I'm going to tell you there's somebody here with a cancer condition. Was it your dad? CALLER: Yes. VAN PRAAGH: Because I feel cancer. And I feel lungs, also. I feel with him also, it could be emphysema at one point, too or trouble with his lungs breathing. CALLER: The lungs it was my mother. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I am getting lungs and trouble breathing here. I also want to tell you that these two are very connected. I don't know. Did you say they passed very closely in time? CALLER: Two years apart. VAN PRAAGH: One of them had a brother over there who met them when they passed over. Hadn't seen this brother for a very long time, OK. CALLER: Yes. That would be my father, he had a couple brothers. VAN PRAAGH: Well, there was a brother there for a long time. He hadn't seen him. He was very impressed -- he was very happy to see this guy. Your father, by your way, didn't believe in this sort of thing. Very skeptical of this sort of thing. But he is a true believer now. A name Joseph comes in also or Joe. And that's interesting, very strong in front of me. CALLER: I don't know who that is. VAN PRAAGH: Did you have to give your mother medications? CALLER: Did I have to give her? VAN PRAAGH: Who gave her the medications. She's telling me that there were medications that she had to receive. CALLER: She did have a lot of medications, nothing I gave her directly. VAN PRAAGH: But there was a schedule of medications she had to get. Every hour. She had to receive medications. I also want to ask you is there a box of hers you have, a jewelry box? CALLER: No. VAN PRAAGH: Who has a box of hers, like a jewelry box of some sort? CALLER: Oh, god, I don't -- I don't know. KING: We are running out of time. VAN PRAAGH: Well, I'm being shown it, and it has flowers on it. KING: Do you like this power you have? VAN PRAAGH: No -- yes and no. I like it when... KING: Brought you fame? VAN PRAAGH: That's nothing. That comes along with bringing the word out to people. The healing I can bring to thousands and thousands of people, and help to remind them who they really are as a spiritual being. That's the greatest part. The negative part of it is, you know, it is hard to be this responsible. KING: James, as always. VAN PRAAGH: Thanks Larry. KING: He started here. James Van Praagh, the famous spiritual medium, best selling author. The new book is 'Heaven and Earth: Making the Psychic Connection,' written after September 11th. And he starts his own syndicated show this fall. And the story about him with Ted Danson airs Sunday night and then Tuesday night on CBS. We'll tell you about tomorrow night and the weekend after these words.

Subject: Gullability, quantified From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:17:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: British scientist Sue Blackmore once went out on the streets with some dice, tested people's ability to calculate chances and asked them about their superstitions. She found a direct relationship between superstition and an inability to calculate chances. Like, for example, the chances that a picture once fell off a wall. The UK, no-placard Neville

Subject: Re: Gullability, quantified From: Cynthia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:21:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim and Neville, Neville, why do you keep calling yourself the ''Other Neville?'' You were here first and the Aussie Neville doesn't post here. Reclaim your name, Neville! :):) Jim: how the hell did you make it through that program? Were you rolling on the floor laughing? I couldn't take more than a click on to see who Larry had on (as usual) and passed right on by. Tom said, 'who's on Larry King?' and I said 'oh one of those beyond the grave guys.' Tom hates Larry King, but I like him. I couldn't figure out why King had the guy on. The Danson movie explains it. I hate those fucking 'other side' guys. They're so obvious. Plus they make money on folks who believe in them. SIcko stuff...

Subject: Reclaiming names From: The First Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 19:40:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not only is there some Aussie doing dramatic things at Amaroo, but a UK football player called Neville is grabbing headlines because of a broken bone in his foot. Whichever direction I turn I'm being upstaged, dammit. Signed:...some Neville or another...

Subject: It gets even worse From: PatC To: The First Neville Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:13:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Neville Brothers www.nevilles.com/

Subject: So, What's Left? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:32:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been flipping thru' some posts I'd missed and something pretty obvious suddenly struck me; what's left? what is there to do for the pwk? you can't contact EV and get any sensible info, there's no video events, the last ones I attended were snoring contests; there aren't any communities as such, so there's no camaraderie or get togethers, no premie celebrations on a local level as in the past. So what is there to tell people? Do you need a script? If people go to see M, the first thing they'll do is follow it up with a visit to the net to get some background, and if they find EPO, to whom will they address their questions, and what answers will they receive? You can't bury the past , you can't undo history, even if you want to re-invent yourself, there isn't a carpet big enough to sweep the dirt under. So what is there? an experience....yes, certainly; but where does it take you, what is the endgame, to worship M? despite the revelations that have been made. I'll say it again; If you place someone above question, you place yourself beyond reason, and if reason cannot find you, what is the value of your realisation? So whats left?

Subject: A few scraps for the loyal table dogs.... From: la-ex To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:29:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John Miller once told me that he liked to think of himself as one of maharaji's house dogs. He told me that he and John Hmpton used to sleep on the floor at m's residence sometimes and fetch him certain things during the day....said it made him feel like m's dog, and he liked that feeling.... However, what's left? Actually, still a few goodies for Pay Pal Rawat and the dogs... He can do his events in India, and get the 'royal treatment' that he thinks he deserves, that he gets nowhere else....so he's got the 'Indian festival thing' for morale boosting twice a year...funny how he likes to put the Indians down so much, but loves their devotional hoopla and their refusal to call him on his shit, because he's still 'lord' over there.... Also, he's still got amaroo, which I think he will preserve at all costs, if you think about it.... -land where he can do his projects,and promise instructors retirement at, although I know of at least instructor who told him politely that amaroo was the LAST place on Earth he wanted to end up in his retirement... -still a cash cow, even if it does take about a milion per year to keep it up.....if he does 2 programs a year, and only gts 5,000 premies between the 2 programs, if he can make $1,000 bucks off each one through registration, rentals, food, darshan donations etc, that's 5 million he just pulled in....add to that, maybe 2 'special' meetings each year for the 'big donor' list, and that's maybe 500 people at $2,000 each, so there's another mllion, just for he upkeep... He's still got the gulfstream V, and he can always tell the big donors how essential it is, with all of the terrorism stuff thse days... You know he'll keep the jet... He's got his malibu mansion, probably all paid in cash by the book company... He says he could retire today if he wanted to, so you know he's got millions in some sort of hard to access account...... He can call 'quickie' programs, and premies will pay huge entrance fees that they don't questiion, because they seem him only a few times a year anyway... So, I think the maha has it just like he wants it, at least on the material plane... Premies will still fork over millions per year....amaroo is where you can 'really' play with the lord... Regular fixes are dished out on the dish, for those who cannot afford methadone treatments... He's distanced himself from the organization, and any possible laswsuits (he hopes), and has high priced lawyers to protect him if need be.... So, he's still got a few poor suckers for devotees....indian festivals and amaroo to play lord at...some cash coming in....a few toys... He's been roughed up, but there's still a few suckers with enough money to keep the game going on, at least for now.... Now if he could just get rid of that damn EPO site, supress speech a bit more, revise history, get rid of the wife, and dust off the old Krishna crown and flute that he can't play, maybe, just maybe, he coul bring back the good old days, kinda like the way some of these old 60's rock bands make a comeback tour.... Naah, too risky...as long as the money's flowing, and monica,good cigars and cognac is around, he's gonna keep on trying to bring that good old fashioned world peace to the thirsty....

Subject: Hey, La-Ex From: Gail To: la-ex Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:55:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you doing in all this? Are you still involved on the surface? Are there still a ton of premies in Malibu ready to do Prem's bidding? Have you been over to the rez to serve sandwiches lately? What's the general morale of the local yokels?

Subject: Sri Chinmoy, of course. From: New-Age Redneck To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:09:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh wait, I think he's dead..... well there has to be SOMEONE that can be my guru, right? What if we had a world and no guru came? :)

Subject: Re: So, What's Left? From: Gail To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:48:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From what I can gather, Prem Pal is strategically planning to tap a new market--WORLD LEADERS. He will always have a few people from the old days around that he feels somewhat obligated to. For the most part, he is hoping the masses will slowly disappear and people will get on with their lives without blaming him too much. It was touching to read Cat's suggestion that I talk to some people who went to Amaroo. He doesn't realize that I was barred from every being involved again back in December, 1998. The door is not open. Soon, only a few will be involved at all. Who will hang around for satelite feeds and camping trips with Maharaji once a year? The cult is leaving the the premies. The train has left the station. It's all so sad. I feel badly for everybody, and most of all myself. It's not at all like I imagined in the early 70s. I figured the millenium of peace would have started by now and we would perpetually be in nirvana. 'I pick you up and I let you go. I pick you up and I let you go. One day, I will pick you up and never let you go!' What about it, Prem. We are all still waiting.

Subject: Let me qualify From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 22:18:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I no longer have any religious beliefs, but I miss the ideas at times. There is no god for me, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell. I don't disbelieve either. I don't know. I read that it is healthier to believe in a superior power, but I can't make myself. I miss having this magical, unseen force orchestrating my life. I've got to do it all myself now. You know, take responsibility for my own life.

Subject: ''I miss the ideas at times'' From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it's not easy being alone. When I was a little kid our village showed a movie every Saturday night in the town hall. They played the same music before the movie for donkeys' years. It was a big band LP (yes, I am dating myself - it was circa 1952) - all instrumental versions of forties ballads. One of the pieces is my favorite song of all time. Many years later I eventually heard the words to the tune - ''Someone to watch over me.'' I do miss that feeling. PS My second favorite song of all time is ''La vie en rose.'' :C)

Subject: Re: ''I miss the ideas at times'' From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:43:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, Maybe someone does watch over us, who's to say that ain't true; I like to think so.....maybe something wonderful still is going on like we all felt...this could be a storm cloud. We pinned that feeling on M, maybe there's a change of script.... ps old songs...I love 'stranger in paradise'....

Subject: ''Strange-looking parasite'' From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:00:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unfortunately I ruined that song in my crass youth. A friend and I used to see how we could changes the words of songs into something silly. I came up with: ''Hold my gland, I'm a strange-looking parasite.'' But the tune is still great. Well, if there is someone to watch over me, I feel sure he/she/it isn't petty and doesn't really mind if I ignore it and don't get my tits in a tangle about it. Anything smart enough to to create a universe isn't going to stand on ceremony or need to be worshipped or have dumb religions surrounding it. ''Love is a many splendid thing.... Two lovers kissed In the morning mist And the world stood still.'' I always wondered why Rawat did not get us to sing real love songs to him instead of ''Rock me Miragey.'' Now I know. He's not classy and his idea of love is cheap and tawdry. ''Some enchanted evening You may see a stranger. You may see a stranger Across a crowded room.....''

Subject: Evening, evening, evening, ...... From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:21:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, evening, ..... 'Someone chanted 'Evening'' I'll get my coat....

Subject: Reminds me of a joke From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 16:47:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The scene : the 1st day of term for the new intake at an expensive English public school........the English Master is warming up the class by getting the pupils to put a word into context. He picks out various Tristrams & Charles' & then asks Oliver, 'can you give me a sentence with the word 'contagious' in it? Oliver says, 'when Daddy took us on safari to E.Africa we had to wash our hands all the time because there're lots of contagious diseases there'. Well done Oliver. Then remembering the Headmaster's pre-term pep talk about the need to make sure the scholarship boys aren't left out, he asks Darren the same question. Darren says, 'when me & my Dad were looking out of the window one day the coalmen came nextdoor,but instead of taking it round the back they just dumped it all on the path. My Dad said to me ,'it'll take that cunt ages to shift that lot'.

Subject: Re: Reminds me of a joke From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 18:06:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's sexual harassment? ''Her ass meant a lot to me.''

Subject: Re: Reminds me of a joke From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 19:00:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A Punk turns up for an audition with a big band... 'OK '... says the band leader, 'I want you to sing'.. 'Life is just a Bowl of Cherries'. 'Sure'....says the Punk, 'In B flat?'...says the Band Leader, 'Sure!'... says the Punk. 'In 4/4 time? '... says the Band Leader, 'Nah,' says the Punk......'5/4 !' '5/4 ?!?'... says the band leader, 'nobody sings it in 5/4, there's one beat too many..' 'trust me..' .. says the Punk, and he counts the band in and starts to croon... '1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5..' 'Life...is just a bowl of fuckin' Cherries.....' hehehehehehe

Subject: No wonder I hated punk rock From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 20:37:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's got that fifth beat - that drugged-up brain-dead Tourettesque twitch. I prefer Doris Day singing, 'Ooooooonce, I had a secret love....'' Her too?

Subject: Re: twitch From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 04:17:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's got that fifth beat - that drugged-up brain-dead Tourettesque twitch. GREAT LINE...CAN I USE IT ...OH PLEEEEEEEESE.....sort of Far Side caption looking for an image XLNT!! Secret love? mmmm, wonder what that was code for in the 50s!! eh?eh?

Subject: secret love From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 17:51:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That phrase is yours. I give it to you. Yes, I always suspected that ''secret Love'' was about the ''love that dare not speak it's name.'' Once I had a secret love, That lived within the heart of me. All too soon my secret love, Became impatient to be free. So I told a friendly star, The way that dreamers often do, Just how wonderful you are, And why I'm so in love with you. Now, I shout it from the highest hills. Even told the golden daffodils. At last my heart's an open door, And my secret love's No secret anymore.

Subject: Re: Evening, evening, evening, ...... From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 16:25:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I'll start the car.. 'I'm just sitting on a duck in the bay......whistle whistle' :@)

Subject: Worst Side Story From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 19:35:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Diarrheaaaaaaaa, I've just had a case of diarrhea. And suddenly it seems, There's fudge pickels in my dreams, Diarrhea, diarrhea, diarrheaaaaaaaaa. Or When you kvetch, You kvetch all the way, From your first bar miztvah, To your last dying day. My older sister and I used to sit around making up warped lyrics to otherwise great songs. It's all her fault I sought escape in SatGuru's grace.

Subject: Re: ''Strange-looking parasite'' From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:36:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We did 'I'm a stranger with parrot's eyes', How about.. 'I threw a custard in her face'... still get chills from 'Laura' btw

Subject: ''Stranger with parrot's eyes'' From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 15:17:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I'm a sucker for all those old love ballads. I'm off to work now. Have fun.

Subject: ps. old songs, Je ne regrette rien [nt] From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 12:13:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I am not waiting for Prem Pay Pal... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:15:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail and AV, Here's a poem by Lawrence Ferlinghetti which I discovered with I was seventeen. (I didn't read Seventeen Magazine) B) I Am Waiting I am waiting for my case to come up and I am waiting for a rebirth of wonder and I am waiting for someone to really discover America and wail and I am waiting for the discovery of a new symbolic western frontier and I am waiting for the American Eagle to really spread its wings and straighten up and fly right and I am waiting for the Age of Anxiety to drop dead and I am waiting for the war to be fought which will make the world safe for anarchy and I am waiting for the final withering away of all governments and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the Second Coming and I am waiting for a religious revival to sweep thru the state of Arizona and I am waiting for the Grapes of Wrath to be stored and I am waiting for them to prove that God is really American and I am seriously waiting for Billy Graham and Elvis Presley to exchange roles seriously and I am waiting to see God on television piped onto church altars if only they can find the right channel to tune in on and I am waiting for the Last Supper to be served again with a strange new appetizer and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for my number to be called and I am waiting for the living end and I am waiting for dad to come home his pockets full of irradiated silver dollars and I am waiting for the atomic tests to end and I am waiting happily for things to get much worse before they improve and I am waiting for the Salvation Army to take over and I am waiting for the human crowd to wander off a cliff somewhere clutching its atomic umbrella and I am waiting for Ike to act and I am waiting for the meek to be blessed and inherit the earth without taxes and I am waiting for forests and animals to reclaim the earth as theirs and I am waiting for a way to be devised to destroy all nationalisms without killing anybody and I am waiting for linnets and planets to fall like rain and I am waiting for lovers and weepers to lie down together again in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the Great Divide to be crossed and I am anxiously waiting for the secret of eternal life to be discovered by an obscure general practitioner and save me forever from certain death and I am waiting for life to begin and I am waiting for the storms of life, to be over and I am waiting to set sail for happiness and I am waiting for a reconstructed Mayflower to reach America with its picture story and tv rights sold in advance to the natives and I am waiting for the lost music to sound again in the Lost Continent in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting for the day that maketh all things clear and I am waiting for Ole Man River to just stop rolling along past the country club and I am waiting for the deepest South to just stop Reconstructing itself in its own image and I am waiting for a sweet desegregated chariot to swing low and carry me back to Ole Virginie and I am waiting for Ole Virginie to discover just why Darkies are born and I am waiting for God to lookout from Lookout Mountain and see the Ode to the Confederate Dead as a real farce and I am awaiting retribution for what America did to Tom Sawyer and I am perpetually awaiting a rebirth of wonder I am waiting for Tom Swift to grow up and I am waiting for the American Boy to take off Beauty's clothes and get on top of her and I am waiting for Alice in Wonderland to retransmit to me her total dream of innocence and I am waiting for Childe Roland to come to the final darkest tower and I am waiting for Aphrodite to grow live arms at a final disarmament conference in a new rebirth of wonder I am waiting to get some intimations of immortality by recollecting my early childhood and I am waiting for the green mornings to come again youth's dumb green fields come back again and I am waiting for some strains of unpremeditated art to shake my typewriter and I am waiting to write the great indelible poem and I am waiting for the last long careless rapture and I am perpetually waiting for the fleeing lovers on the Grecian Urn to catch each other up at last and embrace and I am awaiting perpetually and forever a renaissance of wonder by Lawrence Ferlinghetti It was a favorite poem for many years....

Subject: Re: I am not waiting for Prem Pay Pal... From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 17:38:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cyn Jeez , that fucking beautiful, tears like that I don't mind crying I owe you , big time AV (x)

Subject: Well, good... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:32:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, It's a poem I've always loved. Ferlinghetti was born in 1917. Older than my Mom. When I bought his small book of poetry when a teen I was hooked. Good tears...are good tears... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Well, good... From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 18:49:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: check out an english poet, John Clare

Subject: Cult Leader From: Ebay Alert To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:56:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couple of 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji' Books up for auction. One is titled 'Cult Leader Guru Maharaj ji' Hmmmm, how did they know it is a cult? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1532476127 Cult Guru cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1532476127

Subject: premie psychology From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:13:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone below was talking about premies being unable to come clean with psychotherapists, if they ever visit one. It's true. Suppose a premie suffers from a certain amount of disfunction in his/her life, becomes aware of it and decides to have therapy. They are going to find themselves unable to discuss the one thing that is central to their life. The therapist is then unable to develop a complete picture of the person. How could a premie who believes in Maharaji implicitly be able to dissect and analyse his/her relationship with Maharaji with a therapist, who most likely isn't a premie? Strangely, that same premie would probably have no trouble at all discussing the intimate details of their relationship with their partner (if they have one). But to discuss Maharaji with the therapist would feel like an admission of doubt, and a disloyalty to Maharaji, and their reluctance to do this must come from fear. Out of interest, has anyone here had this experience themselves? (I haven't, for the record, but do know people who have.) As a result of this taboo for a premie on telling the whole truth, the therapist will then be unable to understand the amount of worship/projection their client is capable of. This will result in the therapist not being able to help very much, and the disfunction will remain undiscovered and untreated. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Mercedes To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:14:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia you are spot on, premies do not discuss their relationship with the maja with their therapists it would be so helpful if they did, I know I did and finally I got out of the bloody cult.

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Peg To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 06:15:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia I have just read this question. I got into therapy in the mid eighties. I never hid the fact that I was a premie, nor did I hide the fact of being in therapy from any premies, in fact there was a whole bunch of premies who did both and it didn't seem to be a problem.Of course there was disapproval from stricter premies. I remember one of my colleagues coming up with the analogy of 'rats under the floorboards' for the stuff knowledge didn't deal with but only transcended I think one of my reasons for entering therapy was the loss of magic and I embraced this new world with quite an evangelical fervour when it seemed to provide a magic of its own. I simply never presented my relationship with maharaji as a problem to be examined so it never was. As you have guessed I never gave away that I thought he was LOTU. I remember once, going to my therapist the morning after a programme, getting carried away and saying something like 'He loves me so much' and being shocked by my therapists response 'don't you mean you experience a lot of love and attribute it to him' I also was confronted again and again on the 'special' position I took which was very beneficial to me, especially when i finally came to ex. I think I could have left at this point were it not for the fact that all my closest friends were premies so it was too hard to contemplate. I became a therapist myself and would often have clients who were in some cult or group or had strong beliefs that they didn't want questioning. Sometimes they would want to look at them and then it would be made obvious. I think I probably had a blind spot here, looking back, and perhaps I missed some opportunities. I am pretty sure that my therapist knew where I was at without me articulating it but I was not giving her the deprogramming job and would probably have walked if she had tried to do it. A therapist only has as much power as we are prepared to give them (a bit like a guru in fact) Peg

Subject: Re: premie psychology nt From: Peg To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 06:14:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:47:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You've brought up an interesting issue. I went to a couple of therapists at various times while I lived in Hartford (back in the 70s as a premie) and never told them of my involvement with Maharaji, especially that I believed him to be LOTU. I was embarrassed and afraid to mention it so I kept that information hidden. Very weird in retrospect. I was conscious of not telling. It was a decision I made mixed in with quite a lot of denial. The crux of the matter was that I was suffering. Yet I was still active in SS&M and loving Maharaji. Those two things caused great conflict inside of me. But I don't see how a therapist could have helped more if I told because their job isn't to deprogramme. Worshipping another human being as a god-in-a-bod would have put me in a different light (no pun) for these people. The relationship between client/therapist is difficult enough. I don't see how I could be helped because I had a tiny voice always telling me just to surrender to m. Interesting subject, Livia. In the late 70s Maharaji was heavily promoting ashram life and ridiculting the need for a love partner on the 'earthly plane.' That alone was confusing me but I had a caldron full of problems I didn't even know about at that time. Holding back information from psychotherapists is not uncommon for people. Lots of people for various reasons don't tell their therapists the 'whole picture' of their lives. A good therapist will spot those issues and work around them until the client is ready to deal. When a member of a cult holds back information about their beliefs and involvement I don't know how or what a therapist would do. They might not pick up on it at all; they might notice some 'cult speak' and suspect. My experience is that many shrinks of all shapes and kinds don't know much about cult dynamics anyway. Many therapists are into a lot of juju type stuff themselves, like Reiki, etc. When I finally found my last therapist who took me through ten years with my MPD stuff I had interviewed many, many, many, and that's alot:) of therapists who had too many issues, philosophies, and problems of their own. I rejected them. I remember literally fleeing from the office of a woman 'therapist' in the hills of Montpelier during a terrible snow storm because she kept insisting that 'touching was important for her in her sessions,' as she edged her chair closer and closer to me until our knees were touching. I told her to back off. She was a crazy woman. I literally ran out of her office and got stuck in the snow with my car, got unstuck then, drove away until I came out of my panic. Oh do I have therapist stories! There are some doozies out there. Anyway, thanks for bring up this subject. It's right up my alley. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:31:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a sad fact that any premie who took 'knowledge' in the 1970s and 80s (maybe even after?) has had to become proficient at one thing - lying. Lying to themselves, and lying about their 'Master'. How else could they ever hope to reconcile the diametrically opposed beliefs that Maharaji planted in their heads - originally that he was the 'superior power in person' i.e. God in human form, then the belief that he now fosters which states that he 'never claimed to be God'? If these people are to have any hope of coming to terms with who THEY really are (not to mention the kind of deal they've tied themselves into with their so-called 'Master') then surely they've got to face up to that fact one day. What fact? The fact that they are capable of lying to themselves. Not that I'm suggesting they need to give themselves a hard time simply because of that realisation (after all, the ability to deceive oneself seems to be an integral part of the human condition), but if they really are to progress and grow as real human beings, and not just some kind of cloned, cookie-cutter cult apologists, then one day they're going to have to deal with it. But how do you deal with fhe fact that you are respecting/following a man who once got you to believe he was the Lord? Then denies it. How can an honest person still trust him? Self-deception can become a habit that has devastating effects on a person's psyche. Once the canker has taken hold, then further self-deception is made even easier. The end result? An erosion of the self that no self-respecting aspirant (however innocent) could have had in mind when they signed up to the Maha's trip. As things stand these days, I don't see how any of the old premies can think of themselves as being true to themselves. They're just chameleons who adapt their identity to whatever role-model the Maha says is currently acceptable. I wonder, - what is it about that kind of psychological profile that needs someone else to tell them who they are and what they should be? (I'm sure it's not a profile that only premies match).

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:52:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you said 'I wonder, - what is it about that kind of psychological profile that needs someone else to tell them who they are and what they should be?' First you have to believe that you are not who you thought you were (you are not your body/mind etc..) Once you've let that one in, you are pretty much putty ..... I think its easy to see how someone who is vulnerable and lacking in self esteem would be prepared to have the shit kicked out of their ego, and thus would be so susceptable to whatever was put in its' place. Although there may not be 'heavy satsang' for aspirants any longer, the whole thing of 'if you have any questions, just keep listening to the videos' is a subtle way (whether intended or not) of inducing a feeling of the individual being unqualified to voice an opinion or form sensible questions while 'coming to K'... its all about opening up, letting something in, letting down your guard, giving up your personal discrimination; and that means the in the context of the Master /disciple relationship,the Master has to have ; ((((THE PUREST MOTIVES AND INTENTIONS FOR THE HIGHEST GOOD OF YOUR SOUL ON IT'S JOURNEY TO COMPLETION, AND BE ABLE TO SAFEGUARD YOU, PERSONALLY THRU'OUT YOUR LIFE. ))) I believe most people I know thought that was the case when they found M. To recieve anything less is to walk into very dangerous territory.

Subject: Re: premie psychology From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:24:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv; re-premies with depression /dysfunction etc. from post below: And please don't say 'send people like that to a therapist'....what are they gonna say.?.... 'Well it all started when I found that God had reincarnated with more power than ever before....' 'Well, the entire focus of my life is just to be in that place within inside of me.....' And yes, I have had that experience myself, you feel like you are trying to water down M and K so that you don't sound completely absurd, 'cos if you were the living devotee of the living lord, how come you need a therapist (......Duuhhh..), so you feel you are betraying your Master. snake eating tail again...

Subject: Exactly, AV...! From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:55:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You put it in a nutshell, AV: And yes, I have had that experience myself, you feel like you are trying to water down M and K so that you don't sound completely absurd, 'cos if you were the living devotee of the living lord, how come you need a therapist (......Duuhhh..), so you feel you are betraying your Master. It's called denial but lying to oneself works. Your phrase above pins down the problem I had in the 70s. My solution was to join the ashram and bury myself deeper into the deception. Mind you, that did not take away suffering for any long period of time. I didn't realize he was a fake until much later on. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: The psychology of religious groups From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:29:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this kind of thing is common in religious groups. If the current regime is for everyone to walk around with happy smiles then any problems must be your own fault and people can't admit to having them. The Other Neville

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:37:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking the other day that to read the posts of Mili, Cat and everybody else on LG, they must all be walking around in a constant state of unbridled happiness and gratitude. But then they wouldn't post there if they were going to admit to anything else, would they? At least in the 70's and 80's I remember some honest and open discussions with other premies about what we really felt some of the time. Maybe premies don't do that any more? I don't know - just surmising. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 12:43:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At least in the 70's and 80's I remember some honest and open discussions with other premies about what we really felt some of the time. Maybe premies don't do that any more? I don't know - just surmising There is an entanglement that current premies feel. They really are geniune in wanting to experience that love, that experience ... and really want to share that experience with others (premies)and do - hey we all did eh? Part of that love of sharing prompts them in not wanting to cause any, and I mean any form of doubt in their fellow lovers and this totally disallows them to express any form of doubt. It all becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy, no doubt, no negativity, no questions. The inner turmoil is hidden. However give them just a tiny, just a weensy opening where they feel comfortable in expressing their questions then out it all pours. In my process of exing I took pains not to 'preach' my new found realisations to other premies as I was painfully aware of the anguish this had caused me. However, I found, that once they understood where I was at and that I would not confront them but was very open to listening then some (not all) grabbed the opportunity with open arms. They felt on safe ground, they did not feel that they would prompt doubt in me - I had crossed that sea of maya (huh!). Interesting dynamics indeed - I think that increasingly the community of pwks will interact with the 'community' of exes. Yes there will be the Cat, Mili, Lou type sparring but this will be increasingly a fringe element. Many thanks indeed for this most thought provoking thread all. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:39:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I don't have much personal contact with premies except a family member who is not willing to discuss it. S/he has read a lot of EPO and the Michael Dettmers pieces. Doesn't like the forum but knows I participate here. We came to K/M at the same time, etc... The reason for the reluctance of this person is because s/he's knows that opening the issue would be a big kettle of rotten fish to sort out and s/he's not ready to do that. Has admitted that much to me, by saying 'I'm not ready to look at this stuff yet.' I think it's honest and I accept that. So we agree to not discuss it although I will eek in a little something once in a while during conversations. Given the emotional repercussions that occur once the last drop has dripped I think that many premies hold back until they are ready within themselves to see the real truth about Maharaji. I think this is the case with those who were initiated during the 70s because of that heavy devotional period. Belief is relief sort of thing. Not to mention the heavy guilt trip Prem Pal laid out for everyone, ashram resident or not. Letting go of the belief system is hard. If there's a substantial break in time with contact with the cult (with all the revisions and changes) it is only a matter of time before the doubts overwhelm the beliefs and the exiting process begins. Often I forget that it's been two or three years since I exited. In the beginning it was awful. Some people just walk away. Those who are like my relative know there are deep issues to face and it's not fun. Maharaji has commited serial spiritual abuse and I think that's the big piece of this exiting process which causes so much pain, feelings of betrayal, and anger. It's just easier to ignore it. Eventually, it does creep up and bit one in the ass though. My personal experience was that I becamie very angry at M for betraying me personally. I really thought he knew me. It was a big fat lie.

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Thorin To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:00:18 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: And a big high to you Cynthia! I see I have much to learn. Agree that that this exing process has to come at a time that suits individuals, a time that makes sense given the depth of the imprinting, especially for those that went through the heavy devotional period you identify (I was an early 70's sucker). I am still pondering over those who simply walked away but did not get a clean exit. Perhaps it was me that required a clean exit, a proper understanding, whilst others can make the break without the 'droppings' remaining. Hmmmmm Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: The psychology of religious groups From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:41:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I wonder about those that just walk away. I don't think anyone can if they've invested their spiritual belief system into the god-in-a-bod thing without something popping up in their lives that doesn't make sense or causes confusion. Some premies didn't buy into the whole LOTU (I was naive, I thought everyone did:). The relative I mentioned above never got very involved in SS&M on an consistent level yet their belief was that M was Lord. Lila, darshan, seeing him--the whole package was there for this person. Thanks for your input... Cynthia

Subject: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:37:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 'qualifies' you as a narcissist... Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply). Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted. www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html

Subject: An open and shut case, I'd say [nt] From: The Other Neville To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:09:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: Sorry, here's link To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:41:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: imagine being happy about your daughter joining a cult Interesting site www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html

Subject: Narcissism... From: Cynthia To: Sorry, here's link Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:00:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a site I posted about a few months ago. It's quite interesting and fits Prem Pal to a T, IMO. Scroll down to read 'how to avoid the WRATH of a narcissist.' Best, Cynthia Narcissism www.healthyplace.com/communities/personality_disorders/narcissism/narcissism_defined.html

Subject: Re: is a narcissist?(interesting link) From: Thorin To: Sorry, here's link Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:00:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MoM Thanks for that link - seems very comprehensive. Some time ago I posted the following: Prof. Roy Baumeister of Case Western Reserve Univ. in Ohio did a study of narcissism and came up with the following 'tests' - I'm an extraordinary person - I like to look at myself in the mirror - People should recognise my authority - I wish that someone would one day write my biography - I find it easy to manipulate people - I insist on getting the respect that I deserve - I like to start new fashions and fads - The world would be a better place if I ruled it - I'm more capable than other people. Also Baumeister, in the article, was quoted as saying: 'Narcissists make fairly unpleasant colleagues. They want everyone else to do the drudgery while they take the credit. They crave opportunities for self-enhancement.' 'They believe they are entitled to special treatment because they are God's gift to the world,' 'But these people will shine in times of crisis when they have an opportunity to show off. For example, they are good when a crucial presentation needs to be done.' 'These people make good first impressions. But that soon washes over when people realise that their charm is shallow and ostentatious.'

Subject: This is worth a new thread From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 06:56:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below, Gail wrote: ''Cat: Your claws are showing. Where did our peace and bliss and harmony go, eh? I hope you had a good weekend. I confess I have never been as high as I was at programs. I miss the feeling and the nostalga but not the price. You got to see me in pretty bad shape in Amaroo. Longterm involvement broke down my self-esteem in the group although I never would have stood for that treatment in the 'Real World.' I remained hysterical like that for the rest of the 'event.' NOT A GOOD FEELING!" Gail's piece of writing can be added to - what have been your bad experiences at Maha festivals or programs, whatever they're called? I've already told mine before, about the Orlando swamp festival where I was in Hell for seven days. I was baked throughout the day and forced to listen to an endless stream of initiators giving satsang and then every evening until late, my eardrums were assulted by Lord Maha's gibberish, sometimes being screamed at me and worse than this, the final evening; I thought that perhaps if I got closer to the physical presence of the Lord, I would be able to more fully appreciate him so on the final evening, I managed (by stealth) to get to the front, right behind the row of seated dignitories and sat totally confused and freaked out as the Lord once again blasted my eardrums with drivel until it finally ended, or so I hoped but that wasn't to be as he then came out dressed in full flowery string vest and Krishna crown and to the strains of an endless number of Rich Neal hits, the Lord proceeded to wobble about on stage for what seemed like eternity as all around me, premies went wild with delight, waving their arms in the air in true Maha fashion. My seven days of Hell had now reached a climax - I was now totally freaked out and the fat brilliance of the Lord in his flowery string vest was just too much for me at such a close proximity and I slunk away, like a miserable wretch from Hell, to the back of the crowd of ecstatic premies, to go into one of the mobile toilets and hide away in the darkness to have a cigarette. Yes it's true, I walked away from the Lord in all his glory and to make matters worse and to just about seal my fate as a wretch from the darkest depths, the following day Ira Woods gave satsang and said that he just couldn't imagine how anyone could have been present at the festival for the last seven days and not felt something. That was it! I had to leave that minute and even though there was more Mahaness to come, I rushed to Orlando airport and got the first plane to anywhere - anywhere far away from that Hell, far way from those grinning premies... So what's your story? Was it all bliss? Was I the only one?

Subject: Re: This is worth a new thread From: Suedoula To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:35:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's mine: While walking to a program in Philly (late 70s, early 80s?) I stepped onto a manhole cover that collapsed (being the naive person I was, I didn't threaten to sue the city) but the thing that struck me was that I was in the path of many other devotees and NO ONE stopped to help me. Ok -- one person did. The rest just watched me pull myself up, crying and filthy, embarrassed and frightened, off the ground. I can only suppose that they didn't want to stop for fear of not getting a good seat. So much for the CIty of Brotherly Love. Oh, and the treatment I got at the first aid area once I got to the hall, was condescending, to say the least. My next drip was at a Miami Holi event when I managaed to get as close to the stage and that huge gun as I possibly could. Once M climbed on the stage and started to spray , I was nearly lifted off my feet by a crowd of South American premies, none of whom spoke English. I could no longer see in front of me and I was so tightly packed in by the bodies of those premies behind and around me that I couldn't move of my own free will. I became claustrophobic and panic stricken. The force of the water was powerful and took my breath away. I could no longer see M for the bodies around me. It was horrible and frightening and luckily someone recognized my cries as ones of fear and not of bliss and extricated me from the crowd. I spent the rest of Holi on a cot and then wandered around WAY far back until I could find the group I came with and make it back to my hotel room. I have also thought with great sadness of making my way all the way to Rome and being too focused on M to realize the true greatness and beauty that surrounded me in that great city. Hope everyone is well, Susan

Subject: Festivals were hell... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, I always had a huge knot in my stomach traveling to festivals. Once I would arrive I felt like a stranger in a strange land. The guilt would set in because I never wanted to do service at festivals because I was tired from travel. I'd wander around in a daze trying to get oriented in the crowds. Never liked crowds and still don't. So I'd sit and suffer through hours and hours and hours of satsang until I thought my head would explode. I never thought these things at the time. I thought there was something wrong with me. It was only at the end of programs that I'd feel a great sigh at getting out of there. I experienced these suffocating feelings during all programs and festivals. In a hall or out in the swamps. That's one of the many pleasures of being an ex-premie. I don't feel guilt about getting money together to attend any events nor do I feel anything about missing them. It's great to be free! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: This is worth a new thread From: The Other Neville To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:05:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, you're not alone. Programs were hell. M's greatest achievement is conning people into thinking this painful nonsense is in any way fun: yet more large-scale suspension of critical faculties. The no-placard, non-Australian (and no broken metatarsal) Neville

Subject: Re: 1. David Smith From: Zelda To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:39:30 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: and his goat eyes. I saw him up close after he spoke as he was observing the premies going out the door. 2. Charanands goat eyes when I spoke to him. 3. The premies fawning like gopies in their modern clothes. 4. The undercurrent of understanding that this 'knowledge 'is free but of course one realises that ;donations; are the best /preferred way to show gratitude. 5. Margi looking like a heavy drinker after a long night. 6. Margi getting milage out of inane phrases that imply that everyone else on the planet is worshiping materialism or pursuing happiness in a misguided way. 7. Premies using the same inane logic as Margi . 8. Premies stunted emotional developement due to the fact that Margi has trained them not to feel anything besides 'gratitude' for him . 9 Premies stunted mental developement due to the fact that Margi has trained them not to think . This means they are unable to interact with people.. They can only mirror or reflect back and they try to pass that off as interaction. 10 Premies stunted spirtual developement due to the fact that they are in a state of seige - held in a no-mans land of mindless meditation and projection of superiority. z

Subject: And what about premies' sexuality? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:13:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, I guess there's a serious question there but I was just kidding. Just seeing some of the recent videos I have, there's no doubt that premies are easily as sexy as any other group of Happy Clappers. Certainly sexier than members of the pentacostal Church of Jesus Christ the Christ Jesus down the street. Well, there IS one girl that congregation .... Okay, how about table manners? Can premies have good table manners?

Subject: Anti-Climatic From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 19:40:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sex pales is comparision when you consider that you have a direct link to the ultimate lover who even 'in your darest hour' will never leave you. Besides sex involves mucking about in the lowest charkra. You'll never realize K if you spend too much time in that swamp. No, sex is not necessary for 'the crown of creation' that we are. Reserved strickly for procreation. I don't know how the ashram premies pulled off the celibacy rule. I imagine most spent more time thinking of it rather than if they had just behaved like normal young adults and just engaged in sex. Tonette

Subject: Celibacy was no picnic From: Richard To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 20:26:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was the shy, sensitive guy and very inept at matters of the libido. It was extremely appealing to subliminate my normal human desires and 'lay it at the lotus feet' in the parlance of the day and pun intended. I suppose priests and monks feel the same glorified surrender but, as we've seen lately, it doesn't work out so well. I recently heard a therapist describing a typical Catholic priest's psychosexual development as that of a 13 year old boy. Celibacy wasn't possible for me so I had regular sex in the ashram. Initially it was strictly of the solo variety which was forbidden as well for us renunciates. Later, I found myself in situations that just seemed soooo right that I couldn't refuse. Neck rub became back rub became normal human sex. With such a strong emphasis on love, it was natural for 'that love' to also include romantic love. I was involved with a number of women while an ashram resident. Some were also in the ashram and others were not. Some premies and some not. In retrospect, I don't recall guilt as playing a big part. As I said, it just felt right so why fight it? When M&M were married in 1974, many of the Denver IHQ ashram residents coupled up and/or made their relationships more open. What's good for the guru, etc. I was living in 1263 Josephine Street ashram at the time and discovered there were several active gay and lesbian premies living there who were in relationships as well as straight couples. These relationships weren't flaunted and the atmosphere was don't ask don't tell but it was obvious. I think my choices were extremely healthy for me. My only regret is I was responsible for another ashram resident having an abortion while I was an ashram rsident. For that, I am occasionally filled with grief. It really is too bad that we hadn't met in a more free environment. But we made our choices as best we could given the situation. I've noticed many of my female premie friends still pine away for darshan and don't seem capable of giving themselves to another person. They are good looking, intelligent and witty people who just wont settle for less than divine love. Sad, really because they all say they would really like to find a partner. And, as I have discovered, earthly love is wonderful. I've been married for 18 years and with the same woman for 24 years.

Subject: nobody have been laid here for decades, if ever From: aha To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 07:43:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EVERYBODY I know in 'my' community is single and many were never married; most of the 10 remaining premies in the Detroit area never had serious relationships. All the few premies that got married are now divorced (Gery, Robyn, Kray, Jackie, Bill, George and Silvia)the rest? Well, they have only dreamed of sex; I'm almost sure they never got laid AT ALL. All consider maharaji the perfect lover. ROFL. The perfect blab.... I don't think there are many premies in touch with their sexuality, are there? According to premies we come to the world to find and love maharaji, ONLY. Doomed forever to love ONLY the blab....hmmmm.... I wonder how you ex-premies viewed sex when you were a premie.

Subject: I liked it, but was confused From: JHB To: aha Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 18:20:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My shyness about sex was one of the reasons I started the 'search' that led to Maharaji. I moved into an ashram and observed the celibacy rule. Afterwards I developed a more 'cosmic' attitude to sex, married a premie, but there was always this other person in our relationship. After we separated I had good relationships, but until I renounced Maharaji, there was always this question of how I was going to tell her that there's this other person in my life. I never actually did. It's really only since I became an ex that my attitude to sex has become what I consider healthy, but then that's the same as with my attitude to most things. John.

Subject: table manners? table grade !!! From: sleeper 786 To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:35:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The premie sense of humour? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:32:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Between reading the extremely lame joking around that got the premies rolling in the aisles at Amaroo and the extremely lame jokes premies level at me and anyone else who tries to engage them in dialogue, on LG, here or anywhere, I have to wonder, was I that bad when I was in the cult? I mean, so many of us seem to have really nice, sharp humour in us. That's what keeps me coming here as much as anything else. There's just a lot of humour at times. But the premies? For the most part, they seem about as funny as eight year-olds cackling over fart jokes. My theory is that real humour is so irreverent, it arises when you allow yourself to really sit back and consider anything and everything this way or that. I mean, it's wonky. Life's wonky, at least when you're seeing the humour in it. But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. Premies, as we know, can't risk that. Thus, they're left with the safe pablum Maharaji dishes out. And then, of course, their own tepid imitations like Roupell's 'wild and crazy guy' routine. Did he really call Maharaji 'bossy boots'? Oh my!!

Subject: another DISGUSTING post From: An observer To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:41:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, so many of us seem to have really nice, sharp humour in us. That's what keeps me coming here as much as anything else. There's just a lot of humour at times. Oh no! It's not because you are obsessed with Maharaji. Did you ever hear about stand-up comedy. I'm sure there's a comedy club near your home. Get out much? But the premies? For the most part, they seem about as funny as eight year-olds cackling over fart jokes. Ha ha, the problem is you are the butt of the joke at LG and that's why you crying out for attention. Pooo jimmy, widdle jimmmy is being laughed at LG. The premies have a bad sense of humor to make fun of you, don't they widdle jimmy. My theory is that real humour is so irreverent, it arises when you allow yourself to really sit back and consider anything and everything this way or that. Yea! Meditation works the same way. I mean, it's wonky. Life's wonky, at least when you're seeing the humour in it. You're wonky but you're not funny. Explain that! But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. As opposed to be pretty well free to go where the hair on your butt goes. This is unbeleivably lame. Premies, as we know, can't risk that. Thus, they're left with the safe pablum Maharaji dishes out. And then, of course, their own tepid imitations like Roupell's 'wild and crazy guy' routine. What planet did you come from? You never knew anyone funny when you were a premie? What a sad pathetic fool you are. No wonder no one with a sense of humor went anyone near you. And here is a sample of the ex-premie superior humor. Did he really call Maharaji 'bossy boots'? Oh my!! Oh, that was so funny. Oh my!! get it? get it? Oh my!! is the punchline. go with it. Now everybody, pretend that jim's post was hilarious. give it a standing ovation.

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: wonderfully irreverent mother To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:28:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I was Reverend Mother I would take you both over my knee and spank you! BUT I'm not, so I'll do otherwise and give you a quick lecture (read W.o.W). While you're busy rising to each other's bait and blowing your trumpets you make many off-sounding notes which are sweeping generalisations about groups of individuals. Please remember you do not speak for everyone - premie or ex. It is offensive when lighthearted wit spills over into sour sarcasm and then is stated as though they are sentiments shared by all. I don't know (throws hands up in air)... all this testosterone - son, you didn't get it from me - that's all I can say.

Subject: What in the heck is wrong with testosterone??? From: New-Age Redneck To: wonderfully irreverent mother Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 20:14:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look here missy..... without it YOU wouldn't be here, either. :) There wouldn't be any women, if there weren't men, ya know! he he he :)

Subject: Got any extra??? (nt) From: Gail To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:14:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You miss my point From: Jim To: wonderfully irreverent mother Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:55:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, why are you not posting under your regular name? What if we all did that? I don't know, is it really that complicated? If you've got something to say, you should be able to stand up and say it, I think. This wasn't a ransom note, was it? Slipping a robbery note to a bank teller? No one's going to come to your home and smother you with a pillow (well, at least I won't). So why hide? It just looks cowardly. Because it IS cowardly. Anyway, my whole point was indeed to generalize. That was what I was speculating about, the general impact cult membership has on humour. Lots of exceptions, I'm sure, but that was what I was talking about.

Subject: If you don't mind, you just proved my point! From: Jim To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:58:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'jokes' about me on LG are simply flat. They're stupid. They're childish. There's no real humour in them. I can take a good joke but there just aren't any there. And THIS: But in order to do that you have to be pretty well free to go where the mind goes. As opposed to be pretty well free to go where the hair on your butt goes. This is unbeleivably lame. is just what I'm talking about! That's NOT funny at all, but it's trying to be. Yuck! Was it ever any better for you? Ever?

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: Livia To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:20:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What venom there is in premies these days. You can't help but wonder.... Actually there was a lot of humour in premies - a long time ago. I had some fantastic times; can't deny it. But at some point along the line, things turned funny and the truly funny premies began to leave - in droves. Now premies' idea of humour is dirty jokes or laughing at the supposed ridiculousness of exes. Or the peculiar antics of people who haven't received Knowledge. Oh, that anyone could possibly find a richer life outside the premie mindset! One of the funniest premies I used to know now spends his time not being funny at all as his face goes all contorted when he tells me revisionist lies. All the light seems to have gone out of his eyes. You lot would be a lot more convincing if you dropped the contempt. Somehow, self-knowledge and contempt don't sit too comfortably together, know what I mean? Or maybe you don't. Livia

Subject: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:48:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now premies' idea of humour is dirty jokes or laughing at the supposed ridiculousness of exes. Or the peculiar antics of people who haven't received Knowledge. Oh, that anyone could possibly find a richer life outside the premie mindset! i know THEY think they're funny but do YOU? ARE they? Like does someone know any good premie jokes? Maharaji tells jokes all the time. Once in a while he can be a bit funny but not as much as your average stand-up comedian and certainly not as much as a really good one. And what we're seeing now .... these guys are just so .... dull? Example -- think of those good parodies that Joe and others do from time to time. The characters like Andrea Erickson or Pauline Premie. EV, back before it became a non-entity. They're brilliant! But where are the funny premie parodies, even if they're about us? I can take a good joke, I'm sure we all can. But are there any?

Subject: Re: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:48:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, No I don't think they're funny at all! I haven't seen a single premie post on LG or here that has made me feel like snorting with laughter or anything of the kind. I used to think some premies could be witty - some of the London people certainly were. Did you ever hear of someone called Malcolm Livingston? He was a cartoonist and a genuinely funny person. I don't know if he's still a premie. But most of the truly funny premies I knew seem to have drifted off. Their innate perception must have won out in the end, or something. The attempts at humour that I've seen over on LG are staggeringly inept; you're right - no one has attempted to (successfully) parody us or contribute in any way to the humour that appears on these forums. Some of the posts I've read from exes on the other hand has been humour of the highest order, and I really have found myself laughing out loud on occasion. Maybe there should be a section on EPO for 'best ex humour' - because some of it is memorable. If any premie from LG is reading this, head back to your drawing board or don't try and be funny - lame insults just don't cut it I'm afraid. Bests, Livia

Subject: Re: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: James To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 03:28:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, you dont understand the houmour. Its very simple if your an Australian or a kiwi. The jokes are helarious if you understand it. The jokes that you understand meen little to a person who doesnt understand what is ment. Its like, well it is an other language. James.

Subject: Re: Yes but are they FUNNY? From: Livia To: James Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 18:20:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er yes. Sorry, it must be because I'm not Australian or kiwi. Does Australian or kiwi humour consist largely of toilet jokes then? Wow, how subtle and witty, how utterly compelling! I must rush out and buy as many books of Aussie jokes as I can find if Aussie humour is that good!

Subject: Dear little sir Jamesy pie From: PatC To: James Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:29:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AKA ''Quiet's mate,'' you do'nt speel much beter than you're mate, matey. I wasn't born yesterday.

Subject: Re: Dear little sir Jamesy pie From: James To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:33:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse me?

Subject: Re: Livia From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:41:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Liv, I remember some really hilarious times, pretty irreverent too, didn't seem to matter as long as your heart was in the right place. But recently my experiences of things that come out of premies mouths and when anything vaguely (and i'm talking VERY vague) ctitical or questioning is met with a most worrying and inappropriate response; Is there something weird happening out there or what? It is a great concern when people and friends I have known for most of the last 20 years start to come out with quite venomous stuff with hardly any provocation. Rather than goad pwks about cult stuff, it would be interesting to see if any have something generally positive to say about any topic not specifically related to M? sorry P / K; you know , life ,in general, aspirations, hopes / fears, likes dislikes, dreams, anything motivating or exciting. What's there when the banter stops....????? Much Love

Subject: OK, AV, I have to tell you From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:40:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, I've got this tiny, tiny, tiny pet peeve with you. So small I'm probably an idiot to mention it. But, well, here goes -- why do you always just adress a person in your subject lines? Okay, you don't do it all the time but ... well, it looks kind of funny or something. Like, what? That post is ONLY for Livia? No, I didn't think so. So why not just keep the same subject line or say something relevant in your own? Now, what'd I tell you? Petty or what? Just a suggestion. Funny thing the kinds of stuff that ends up bugging you. I never would have guessed this might have but obviously it does enough for me to say something. By the way, I dig everything you're saying here. :)

Subject: Re: OK, AV, I have to tell you From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:23:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I tend to address my postings to the person whose point(s) I am following on....that way , it's obviously part of the thread, but specific to the person who made the point....like a TV debate where people on a panel speak person to person, but in front of an audience. If I wish to address 'the audience', I start a new thread, make sense?? Good. I'm glad you enjoy some of my stuff, it isn't always easy..

Subject: Re: Livia From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:03:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV - we must be online simultaneously. Good point you just made. It's hard to know, actually. From what I can see, the 'drifting' premies seem to have one foot in each world. They are making a life for themselves outside Maharaji's world and pretty much believe in all the values that come with that. But they haven't resolved quite where the Maharaji thing fits in. They still go to see him and have a fairly good time - can even feel quite nostalgic and emotional as old memories are triggered. They feel much the same as they always did when they meditate - either a lot, a bit or nothing. They've put their faith in Maharaji into a compartment labelled 'deal with later'. The premies who are still devout are a different kettle of fish altogether. I've spent time with two of them in the last few weeks and found them very odd. I think they actually find their own life quite odd, because they've taken on Maharaji's world view, which makes it very difficult for them to fully engage with the world or with the culture around them. Because of this, they tend to do what they have to in order to make a living, but then quickly return to the safety of the company of premies, because that's the only place they feel safe and understood. They see everybody else as somewhat lost and deluded and themselves as the only ones who know the truth, but somehow the reality of the premie world doesn't quite bear this out, so they are left with an odd dissonance that they can't quite admit to themselves or share with anyone else either. It's not a good place to be at all. One of the ways they deal with it is to attack exes as a way of convincing themselves that they are, indeed, right in their belief. The stronger the venom, the stronger I suspect the covert self-doubt. The self-doubt is so repressed that they probably don't even consciously realise it's there. It's obvious to anyone looking at them, though. Anyone seen 'Passages'? Wow. Much love to AV and all Livia

Subject: AV From: An observer To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:58:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But recently my experiences of things that come out of premies mouths and when anything vaguely (and i'm talking VERY vague) ctitical or questioning is met with a most worrying and inappropriate response; Confronting someone is not a reason to say a premie is not capable of being funny. What kind of logic is that? Didn't you ever know a premie who was funny? Yes or No If yes, than is jim's theory is lame?

Subject: Re: observer From: AV To: An observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 05:02:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: observer, I rek'n the tone of your reply speaks volumes... I wasn't talking in a confrontational manner, just trying with some people to take a broader view, not dissing M at all....but there is, I regret to say, an ingrown toenail of belief that people who have not 'come to knowledge' are lost in a twilight zone where they have no vision of reality,nor are they able to grasp any experiencial wisdom that exists beyond the realm of thought. This stems from a very deep incision made by M to divide the world of 'Knowledge and Realisation' from the world of 'illusion'. So let me ask you a question before I answer yours; If a person, after being devoted to M for most of their post-teens adult life, who meditates regularly and attends events, finds 'the world' a generally hostile place where they cannot feel comfortable, who gets extremely upset over small matters, and generally does not feel capable of engaging in life, and probably couldn't spin a joke, even if money was on the table.... would you consider that to be someone that needed some assistance in 'balancing' their life, and not always reverting to a solitary, inward seeking comfort zone that in over 20 years has done NOTHING to improve their outlook???? If M is a master of perfection, of truth and love, and is (tho' I don't have a problem with this per se) EXTREMELY wealthy, would it not be nice to have a retreat, or skilled councillors, or just some loving support in the form of an understanding helpline, so see help for people with these long standing problems which I BELIEVE are a result of that line drawn in the sand between the world we live and and 'the world of M'? Now that may be thought provoking to a premie, but I wouldn't say it was confrontational, I am enquiring after a solution to a specific problem within a particular organisation, that of depression and dysfunctionality. It exists, believe me. So why should such questioning invoke a 'venemous' response? Why no helpful answers? And please don't say 'send people like that to a therapist'....what are they gonna say.?.... 'Well it all started when I found that God had reincarnated with more power than ever before....' 'Well, the entire focus of my life is just to be in that place within inside of me.....' Come on observer....OBSERVE....LOOK....how would you help? Or maybe you just want to enjoy your club; YOU CAN'T SIT IN A CASTLE AND PREACH PEACE Of course premies are capable of being funny, what Jim was referring to was the accounts of Ameroo, where a fawning version of humour, a parody based usually at the mocking of another person , or mimicking Ms own fondness for dirty jokes, seems prevalent around M and premie events in general. It's a structured humour based on being safe, good comedien(ne)s are not safe, they are dangerous and break new ground, because they offer a new thought, new perspective. They tear down idols. Jim's theory is not lame, he is actually being observant.... you, the observer, have not observed , but jumped in with both feet on both our backs, and made yourself look a little ridiculous in the process. If you want to redeem yourself, you can always tell us a joke, we LIKE laughter here you know!

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: all sewed up? To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 04:08:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you both have done summed up the premie mindset based on your limited contact with them, afraid of the big wide world (while you guys stride ahead and have become highly successful?) Afraid to hear any ctiricism of M or K ? - bullshit, that's all we hear from you people. telling the wolrd what premies think deep down like livia does constantly is a sure sign of someone doing what she hopes premies are doing - trying to desperately convincer herself that she's right. the oinly reason anyone would do that is if they are constantly re evaluating themselves ie: lost! she isn't right at all and doesn't seem at all happy - as for humour - where? cat Is mili dr cd and lou run rings around you gormless LG intruders

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: Livia To: all sewed up? Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:37:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, where is the criticism of Maharaji exactly? Haven't heard a single word of it coming from you guys. And I never heard a word of it from premies while I was involved with them, which was over a period of 20 years. The only premies I ever heard criticising him were people who were beginning to question the whole thing. They were then regarded as being 'completely in their minds'. A few years ago I was beginning to have some niggling questions about certain things. I tried to express them to premies who I felt might be open-minded enough to enter a discussion. No dice. There was an enormous reluctance to converse in any manner that might involve them having to be critical of him. I gave up, because I couldn't find anyone at all prepared to discuss. It was only when I found EPO that it turned out that there were indeed many, many people who had had the same questions as myself for years, but had been keeping quiet. Are you suggesting that we were all imagining the minefield of attempting to discuss things with premies? For the record, in the last few weeks I have tried to discuss things with several premies and have had the same reaction every time: anxiousness followed by spin of every type imaginable. If there's a group of premies around where you live, openly discussing all their various individual attitudes and opinions, great! I'm glad to hear it! Sounds healthy to me...where are they? Livia

Subject: Re: livia and AV From: VA To: all sewed up? Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:49:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: jeez, thansk four puting me strait, wot mussed I hav bin thinnking ?

Subject: Re: observer From: AV To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:07:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Still no joke observer? Oh well, just to get the ball rolling: Q. What do you get when you cross a Jehovas' Witness with a Punk??? A. Someone who knocks on your door, then tells YOU to piss off!!! ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho hohohoho...... now your turn.... ;-) ;-)

Subject: Crass Joke--read if you dare From: Prem Pal (your pen pal) To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:11:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A woman was concerned with the length of her labia, so she opted for surgery. She decides not to tell anyone due to the private nature of the procedure. Afterward, she receives three roses. 'Doctor,' she rants, 'I told you not to tell anyone!' 'I didn't,' he exclaimed! 'One rose was from me. One rose was from the nurses on your floor to cheer you up. The third one came from Bill the Burn victim. He told me to thank you for his new ears.'

Subject: Re: observer From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:11:36 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: AV I always had you down as a serious sort of person. Now I am not so sure. That was hilarious. Thanks I remember when I first got Knowledge I had one of these Jehovas' Witness come to my door. After a couple of hours and lots of tea he was seriously confused about his beliefs. Gawd I tried - or did I mean trying! Also I managed not to purchase 'The Watchtower' Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: THORIN From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:17:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ta!!! We had some Mormon suits call unwittingly at the ashram one day....so we invited them in for tea and a full and frank discussion of the gospels, christian gnostics, the apocryphal texts, missing gospels of the Essenes, Cathars, you name it..... BOY WUZ THAT FUN...

Subject: Re: AV From: Livia To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:11:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi observer. (Don't you have a name?) Anyway, as far as I see it, premies used to be as funny as the next person, and yes, there were once countless numbers of basically irreverent, witty and humourous premies around. But most of them have walked, because their very quality of irreverance enabled them to see that something was awfully wrong. What you think is humour in the current premie world is the in-jokes that go with being part of a group. Most groups that share a particular mindset tend to share a particular sort of humour, if you can call it humour in the truest sense. (I don't.) I've seen it in groups of New Age people and I've seen it in Christians too. And it's only funny to the people who belong to that particular group. If you think that's humour in the universal sense - well, I guess you're entitled to your view. Livia

Subject: Bossy Boots From: PatD To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:06:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of the mouths etc. That was a good one.......

Subject: Re: Bossy Boots From: An observer To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:14:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Could you please comment on the rest of my post. Didn't you ever know premies who are/were funny, or does this not-so-funny clown speak for you, too?

Subject: Re: Bossy Boots From: Gail To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 22:58:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Observer: I've known lots of funny premies. One of the best was a guy by the name of Brian Sydall. That guy would have made a superb comedian instead of an ashram brother. People laughed and joked around a lot. We were young. We had the world by the balls. We knew the Lord of the Universe personally. We were the cat's meow! BUT there's not much to laugh about these days if you're stuck in the cult mind set where all natural intelligence has been strip-minded. In the old days, things happened spontaneously. Life is funny when you're living it for yourself. Nowadays, people watch their event at home. In fact, any reasons for staying in a cult/religion have been removed in Prem's group. It got a decade ago. I used to see friends from London, Ontario when I went to Miami. There were no swelling numbers around here (just a handful left). Scripted intros to present videos replaced even that menial task. I gave EPO the script that Padarthanon gave me. I laughed over that, you can be sure. He had us practise the whole thing several times each (no Oscar when we were done). No. Premies are funny anymore. The excitement is pretty much gone. Now there is the hope and dread of the NEXT TIME! The wait between fixes and the scripted lines and the emptiness from not having built an ordinary life that derives satisfaction from ordinary things. There is a fear of running in to ex-premies (folks who used to be your friends FOR REAL--NOT THE IMAGINARY MAN ON THE THRONE). Premies need magic and it's a scarce as charnamrit! WHOSE'S LAUGHING?

Subject: Hello Observer From: PatD To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...we're separated by minutes only,but we're on opposite sides of the moon. You ever read Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials'. All the best to you anyway.

Subject: Re: another DISGUSTING post From: Cat To: An observer Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:59:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read on LG where Pat said your sense of humour was really dry and none of the premies got it. Yeah ,so dry ,that the majority of those exposed walk away feeling like a salty crisp. You aren't dry Heller ,you are simply cruel. Pathetic and cruel. And a total hypocrite with a nose like a hoover...

Subject: What I said about Jim's wit on LG From: PatC To: Cat Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:37:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim said to Isabella: ''Well, yesterday was a bit weird, don't you think? Why, if I was the paranoid type I might have almost thought -- now, I know this is going to sound crazy but I DID say 'almost' -- that premies didn't want me talking to you here. Crazy, eh? Like I said, I know that's not really the case but, well, you have to admit the grace, or something just like it, was really shaking this place. I mean, LG was rockin'!'' I thought that was hilarious and posted to Jim: ''You are your own worst enemy, Jim,'' and continued: No one else except me and a handful of other exes understand your wit. It is too dry for pious premies whose acme of humor seems to be Maharaji's scatological and eschatological jokes. How are your haemorrhoids? My colon is fine. Life is great! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- The last sentence of course refers to the dumb insults that get flung at Jim about haemorrhoids and the homophobic colon/anus insults that get thrown at me. These are meant to be jokes and often evoke hilarity among the premies on LG. Some of Rev Rawat's fart jokes are funnier but not much and your ''Surreal Gym'' joke below was definitely a groaner. :( Now, I'm off to work. Don't have too much fun behind my back.

Subject: Jim's a F**Kwit? From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:56:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you actually haven't woken up to what is happening. The people who post hereand at LG (in particular) have had enough. The humour is very tongue in cheek and ,well not as literal as the gringo's think. But if you or Heller think you have carte blanche on reality statements - think again - you may well be handed your torch and be banished from the island...

Subject: Cat, what the hell? From: Gail To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:51:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat: Your claws are showing. Where did our peace and bliss and harmony go, eh? I hope you had a good weekend. I confess I have never been as high as I was at programs. I miss the feeling and the nostalga but not the price. You got to see me in pretty bad shape in Amaroo. Longterm involvement broke down my self-esteem in the group although I never would have stood for that treatment in the 'Real World.' I remained hysterical like that for the rest of the 'event.' NOT A GOOD FEELING! That was the final slap in the face for me. Why I left the cult: 1. The Daya's restaurant incident 2. vague answers regarding where the money was going 3. EVs failure to send me a tax receipt for $300 for the Toronto Office Supplies for a program (I was asked to buy them and submit a receipt for tax purposes--someone must have claimed it) 4. Videos being recalled by Prem 5. Scripts from Padarthanand to introduce videos 6. Lack of community 7. Maharaji telling us not to go out on the net (seemed fishy--he really did say that in Miami) 8. Hearing about this site and checking it out 9. Feeling depressed about this site (it felt like I crawled into a bucket that was spinning in circles at mach I when I checked in here 10. Hey! It isn't much better than it was, but I'm not living on a hope and a prayer!

Subject: what videos did he recalled? From: silvia To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:01:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when was that? thanks

Subject: Re: what videos did he recalled? From: Gail To: silvia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 22:14:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He recalled two of them in April, 1998. They were participation videos from Australia if memory serves me correctly. Also, on that note, I was surprised by the amount of editing for videos (live vs. video).

Subject: I missed it: What's the Daya Restr. incident? /nt From: Carl To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 09:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yowza

Subject: You Can Get Anything You Want at Daya's From: Gail To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:01:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Restaurant except respect ... 1998 - Amaroo I treated myself and four others (Susan D., Susan E, Lynn D. and Anne J.--in case someone wants to call me a liar) to a lunch at Daya's fine dining for $85 per plate. They were very short staffed and the service was terrible. I offered to do serve-us the next day. I worked from 11:00 to 16:15. The second event was starting at 17:00. This Spanish/Portugese? chef, who had just returned from DARSHAN, asked me to bring in all the trolleys (all the other slaves had sneaked away to eat in the back). I told him I had one table left and wouldn't have time for all that. I dragged in one of them for him and finished the table. A fellow slave labourer (British or Australian) suggested that I get two plates ready for us which I did. I didn't know it was against the rules (that's why this guy had me do it.) Apparently, the slaves were supposed to pay $5 for a plate of mac & cheese. I was leaving the restaurant with the plates of vegetables when the chef started shouting that I was a liar (for saying I was too busy to finish hauling in all eight trolley carts) and a thief (for stealing the food). I guess they were planning on reheating the vegetable, shrimp, lamb, and beef for the evening meal at $100 a pop--nothing is too fine for Daya's Fine Diners! Needless to say, I was floored. My preceeding bill of $425 and my five-hour gratis shift more than covered the two plates of veggies. Instead of smashing this man in the face, which is what he deserved, I started to cry and didn't stop for three days (I left Australia with two slits for eyes. I looked like I'd been to bury my daughter insteading of party with my Lord). About 100 people were in the back of Daya's watching the scene. I even had a counsellor chat with me and offer me an apple. Thanks to her even though I lost my appetite. I was very humiliated. DISGUSTING, EH?

Subject: GET LOST CREEP From: Marshall To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: You are a worm Ropeull. So why don't you go shove a vintage guitar up your phony richboy, moronic, pretentious ass. You likened ex-premies to 'shyte on the bottom of your shoe' Remember dumbass? You got it backwards, but you were close. In the same sickening tirade you used the racial slur 'darkies' isn't that similar to niggers? What is a darkie? Aren't the Rawat's darkies? what the fuck was that all about? Maybe, for all you know, I'm dark skinned you racist jerk! Believe me no one wants your phony sympathy or your idiotic, maverick premie, advice either. Fuck off loser! And yes I AM speaking for the whole damn group, I dare to do that, can you believe it! You are beneath worthless, I feel sorry for your unfortunate daughter, but what can you do, huh?

Subject: oh it's you Marshole From: DR To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:26:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he he the poor lonely illiterate who nobody takes seriously but who 'speaks for all'. you wish. Keep screaming son, you'll get it all out one day Envy is the destroyer of the soul you silly fuck

Subject: yea, that's disgusting From: DR To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:08:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should have punched the fucker Gail, but I can understand the mindset that stopped you reacting 'appropriately' on that sickening occasion. For what it's worth, people became aware of these and other atrocities and thankfully, the Amaroo of today is a smarter, kinder place. But one has to still be on the lookout, we had some stupid jerks come to the info booth and 'ask' us questions (read, play endless mind games). I told one guy where to get off and then explained my actions to the team, basically that we had the right to get rid of aggressive time wasters as quick as poss. Thankfully, they agreed and I wasn't thown out for 'inappropriate behaviour' he he. I don't subscribe to the holy humble mindless subservience that we thought we should employ in the past to get an experience of something. I may not be as 'wild' as Jim says I try to be, but I behave at Amaroo just like I do at home - unfettered and untamed. I don't try to be a rebel, it is just my belief that M appreciates those who feel at home - wherever they are, including around him. I hope you grabbed a large bag of Pistachio nuts and a bottle of Louis Rhoderer as you left Dayas.

Subject: GET LOST CREEP for DR (nt) From: Oops To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:56:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: z

Subject: GO FUCK YOURSELF GUTLESS TROLL From: AND YOU CAN To: Oops Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:19:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PUT YOUR MITTS UP BIGMOUTH

Subject: DR's right Marshall From: observer To: AND YOU CAN Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 03:39:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your instant home brewed hatred of him (because he comes from a 'different' background than you?) is all too obvious in your hate filled posts. If that isn't dogshit tell me what is. he is not half as pompous as the rest of his breed i can tell you. You never take any notice of what he says but attack on principle because you see yourself as inferior? it looks that way If you weren't so blinded by judgement you might actually read what he's written. It's obvious that 'darkies' means dark mindsets not dark skinned. and he didn't say us exes are all doggie do but the dark stuff is like dogshit and in your case he's is right on the button. You do NOT represent this forum, if you did we would all be in deep doggie crap. You know me but I choose to post this anon because you seem to be inclined to hold grudges towards people and not let go of them

Subject: Yeah, you're an ex alright. Sure you are :) From: Jim To: observer Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I say you're not. I say you're just another premie anonymouse trying to confuse people. And who's to say otherwise? You? HAHAHAHA!

Subject: The cultweasel thinks we were born yesterday From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 13:58:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My theory about why they think they can lie with impunity. If His Holeyness can get away with revisionist lies - so can they.

Subject: Are there other wild guys like you? From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 00:32:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, First, to answer your question (on LG), I don't practise nearly enough and I do this way too much. Good idea to bring one of my millions of guitars in here, put it on a stand by my computer and noodle at least while I'm sitting here. Second, I guess there must be all sorts of fiercely independent people in your cult now, huh? Sounds like independence is exactly what all those trainings and team-synchronization mind-fuck sessions are designed to foster, right? A bunch of rugged individualists who just happen to like to sit and listen to Maharaji say nothing. Hey, you don't happen to have an ear ring, do you? A tattoo? Too much!

Subject: yea plenty, and wilder From: DR To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:41:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No tattoo, earring or any jewelry. I even lost my cignet ring (complete with family crest) when I had my hair cut real short a few years back and used that fudge hair cream which made my ring slip off one day when I was applying it. Good you're getting one of your three guitars out - just sit it on your lap and strum away, it's great watching different posts bring out different styles of riff. Have you tried the modeling amps? I'm using a Johnson JT50 right now. Boy, it sure can cook up some tasty morsels. Since they installed 24bit processors the emulated sounds are indistinguishable from the old vintage amps. You're right about the team trainings et al - the net result of that was indeed a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose. Nothing wrong with good teamwork, but of course, there's always those jackasses who vie for senior positions and then abuse the system by formalising it to the point of nauseum (and the appropriate reactions to that.) Maharaji only says nothing to people who are already realised souls and have fulfilled the purpose of their life. We're not all as lucky as you Jimbo, show some compassion.

Subject: Re: yea plenty, and wilder From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 12:38:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: 'Maharaji only says nothing to people who are already realised souls and have fulfilled the purpose of their life.' Are you just rolloing out the same old same old, or do you accept that indoctrination? i.e that the individual has this 'soul' which has to be 'realised'.. and that the process by which this is accomplished is in fact, the entire purpose of one's life which may be fulfilled only in this way? and tell me, where did this idea come from? sounds like Hans Yog Prakash to me, do you really believe that? I am dead serious because if you do , it would be interesting to know what steps you have taken in your own life to achieve that, what has helped you on your way? do you feel you have a duty to help others to come to the same awareness as you, and if so, do you feel one has to make any form of personal sacrifice on an altruistic level to assist their own realisation and fulfilment, or is it 'everyman/woman for him/herself? Do you consider M to be the only teacher in the world that can assist the individual to reach the state of realisation, and from your contact with M, has he given any 'hints' as to what followers have achieved that state of being and fulfilled their lives? And on a personal note, do you use any of your own resources to help those not so endowed to get to events where they may be inspired on the path you endorse? Is that important or irrelavent IYO? Is this a good way to show compassion, or should compassion be free of motives aligned to your own beliefs? AV

Subject: Not quite sure I follow you there, Roupell From: Jim To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 11:59:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right about the team trainings et al - the net result of that was indeed a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose. Well, I was being faceitious and you're pretending I wasn't, but that's fine. Tell me, though, how this works please. I thought that the whole thing about the team trainings was to learn to align one's will -- and voice -- with the team's. You know, to stifle dissent or at least its expression. Were MacGregor and the others who've described this process -- wherein team members are trained to say 'black is white' basically if that's the team consensus -- lying? Please explain because right now, as it stands, it kind of looks like you are.

Subject: Re: yea plenty, and wilder From: Livia To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 08:15:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "a surge in the 'individual' and his or her unique experience - and the right to enjoy and express it the way they choose." What do you mean by that, exactly? The right to express one's unique experience to a potential aspirant, perhaps? I thought Maharaji's directive in that particular scenario is to refer them straight to a video of himself. Can you please explain? Livia

Subject: Well, I share Marshall's dislike of you, DR From: PatC To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 05:05:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You really are quite an unpleasantly phony person. You know as well as I do that there is no reason for you to be participating in a synchronized fashion on the ex forums but you are sooooooooo dedicated. Must be going on five years now - huh? Spin, disrupt, spin, lie, spin, play games. You've got a good Borg er team effort going there, chum, but it's as silly as Rev Prem's little scam. It's based on fear and superstition same as your little Pimple's trip. Is that BO I smell or primitive terror of damnation?

Subject: Aw shucks PC (yea, good team isn't it?) From: Dislike? To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 23:37:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great teamwork I agree....but we all know that when Pat Twoface Conman dislikes you...(me) Oh good god.....well THAT'S THE END OF MY FORUM GLORY ISN'T IT!!! It's been fascinating seeing you vomit and squirm all over LG lately Conlon. Like the girls are asking...what's eating you pal? It's not the fact that you're watching all you forum power, credibility and influence vanish in the haze? Na....... Don't worry we know what it is.......

Subject: It's a Heller thing From: Cat To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:47:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still feel just great.I didn't like Jim or his actinities BEFORE Amaroo and I still dont like him or his ways AFTER Amaroo. I think you might find it interesting to talk to a few of the people who went this time.

Subject: Gail, I want tell you ( not Jim :C)) that... From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 03:58:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really appreciate your posts lately. Thanks. You sound tough and cheerful, broadminded and free-thinking. I specially enjoyed: ''Premies need magic and it's a scarce as charnamrit!'' But your whole Bossy Boots post was great and this one too. My hat's off to you.

Subject: Thanks, buddy! (nt) From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 23:04:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Move Jagdeo to Malibu? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:31:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an article regarding Cardinal Law who's just one of the Catholic clergy under attack for essentially covering their own asses (no pun intended!) instead of protecting the kids. The parallel between him and Maharaji is just astounding. Maharaji, as we have every reason to beleive, despite his stonewalling and efforts to lie around the facts, did just what Law did in the emboldened section below. This is like the Twilight Zone:Report: Cardinal Law to take Vatican post BOSTON, Massachusetts (CNN) --Beleaguered Boston Cardinal Bernard Law is expected to be replaced by June and assigned to a new position at the Vatican, a Boston newspaper reported Friday. The Boston Herald quoted unnamed church officials saying Pope John Paul II would move the embattled archbishop to an undetermined post before a scheduled deposition of Law in a suit against the Boston archdiocese. Law has faced increasing public pressure to resign for his handling of alleged sex abuse cases involving priests in his archdiocese. In one case, he moved former priest John Geoghan -- now in prison for molesting an 11-year-old boy -- from parish to parish even though he knew of allegations Geoghan had abused children. Earlier this month, documents showed Law repeatedly transferred the Rev. Paul Shanley, another former Boston-area priest accused of sexually abusing 30 minors. Authorities say Shanley publicly endorsed sex between men and boys. In diary excerpts released this week, Shanley admits having venereal disease and helping young people use drugs. The excerpts were among documents turned over to attorneys representing people suing the church over sexual abuse allegations involving Shanley. 'Much of my life these last few years has been choosing not twixt good and evil, but the less of the two evils ... my God, I've even taught kids to shoot up properly,' Shanley writes. In another section, he says, 'One of the first things I do in a new city is to sign up at the local clinic for help with my VD.' (Full story) On Wednesday, at the close of a meeting between the pontiff, Law and other U.S. Roman Catholic leaders, the cardinals issued a statement saying they would seek to dismiss any 'notorious' priest found guilty of 'serial, predatory, sexual abuse of minors.' The statement did not endorse a 'zero-tolerance policy' -- in which no instance of molestation would be tolerated. Speaking at Rome's Fiumicino Airport on his way home to Boston, Law said he and the other cardinals helped draft the statement, but admitted he had not read the final version. He said he was 'particularly grateful for the [pope's] open talk' during the meeting. 'I thought it was excellent,' he said. 'Very good spirit, very frank, very open.' (Full story) Sex abuse is expected to be a top issue in June at the bishops' general meeting in Dallas, where specific proposals from the cardinals will be discussed. Eight cardinals are scheduled to gather in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Friday for a previously scheduled benefit dinner.

Subject: And check this out From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:39:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Priestly Sin, Cover-Up Powerful Cardinal in Vatican Accused of Sexual Abuse Cover-Up By Brian Ross April 26 — A trusted ally of Pope John Paul II has been accused of sexually abusing boys a half-century ago at an elite seminary for the Catholic Church. The alleged victims say the Vatican knew of the allegations against Father Marcial Maciel and chose not to pursue them. In fact, the pope has continued to praise 82-year-old Maciel, a Mexico native, as an effective leader of Catholic youth, despite detailed allegations sent to the Vatican four years ago saying the man was also a long-time pedophile. Maciel denies the charges and said the men made them up only after leaving the Legion of Christ. Maciel is the founder of the little-known but well-connected and well-financed Legion of Christ which has raised millions of dollars for the Church. Operating in the United States and 19 other countries, the Legion of Christ recruits boys as young as 10 years old to leave their families and follow a rigorous course of study to become priests. 'I think Father Maciel is one of the most powerful men in the Catholic Church today and also arguably the most mysterious,' said Jason Berry, author of Lead Us Not Into Temptation: Catholic Priests and the Sexual Abuse of Children. Hidden Abuse, 50 Years Ago Maciel is alleged to have molested some of the young men under his control, some 50 years ago, at the well-manicured seminary and headquarters of the Legion of Christ, a few miles from the Vatican. It is hidden behind high walls and a steel gate that warns of a watch dog inside. 'He pushed my hand onto his penis. And I didn't know anything about masturbation,' Juan Vaca, who was first abused when he was 11 years old, told ABCNEWS. 'And he says, 'You don't know how to do it. Let me show you.' And he gets my penis himself and starts to masturbate me. I was in shock.' Now 65 years old and a psychology professor at Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y., Vaca, the former superior of the Legion of Christ in Orange, Conn., says he was one of some 30 boys abused by Macial during his studies at the Legion in Rome. Vaca also told ABCNEWS how he was instructed to bring other boys from their bedrooms to Maciel's room. Vaca said Macial had different boys visit his rooms on different nights. 'In some instances, two were together with him — myself and another one,' he said. Vaca said Maciel rewarded him with special privileges, such as a private meeting with Pope Pius XII, who served as pope from 1939 to 1958. Maciel always assured Vaca he was doing nothing wrong. When Vaca admitted concerns of committing a sin, Vaca said Macial absolved him from his sin 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.' He told him not to worry and to forget about it. But Vaca said he could not forget. Eight Men's Allegations Went Unanswered Vaca is not alone. He is one of eight former students, now all in their 60s, who have signed sworn affidavits submitted to the Vatican that they were abused by Maciel. When they were members of the Legion, the accusers were devout followers of Marciel. But for the last eight years, they have been trying to get the Vatican to listen or even acknowledge their detailed allegations of sexual abuse at the hands of Father Maciel. They say they have not heard a response from the Vatican. In 1997, they went public, telling their story to The Hartford Courant, a newspaper in Connecticut. Courant reporters Jerry Renner and Jason Berry, who wrote the story, repeated the allegations to the Vatican, yet received no response from the Vatican. However, later that year, the pope took a step that surprised them. Maciel was appointed to represent the pope at a meeting of Latin American bishops, which Renner and Berry took as a clear signal the Vatican had ignored the allegations. 'He's Untouchable' 'I would say he has the pope eating out of his hand. Who is going to touch him no matter what he does?' said J. Paul Lennon, a member of the Legion of Christ for 23 years, who has since left and has been helping those claiming to be victims. 'He's untouchable.' Lennon said Macial is a master of Vatican politics: 'He's worked with several popes, knows the inner workings, knows monsignors, knows cardinals, knows maybe the men who are really in power, knows that so well, so well.' Then, four years ago, some of the men tried a last ditch effort, taking the unusual step of filing a lawsuit in the Vatican's secretive court, seeking Macial's excommunication. Once again they laid out their evidence, but it was another futile effort — an effort the men say was blocked by one of the most powerful cardinals in the Vatican. The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement. He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand. 'Come to me when the moment is given,' Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, 'not yet.' 'Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him,' said Berry, who expressed concerns that no response was being given to the allegations against the man charged with sex abuse. 'These men knelt and kissed the ring of Cardinal Ratzinger when they filed the case in Rome. And a year-and-a-half later, he takes those accusations and aborts them, just stuffs them.' Maciel Denies Allegations As for Father Maciel, he would not agree to speak with ABCNEWS this week in Rome, although he issued an emphatic, written denial of the allegations, in which he strongly denied the allegations of what he called 'repulsive behavior.' He said the men made up these allegations only after leaving the Legion of Christ. Click here for his statement. 'He has many other things to do rather than appear on a news program,' said Father Tom Williams, who said he would serve as Macial's spokesman. He called the allegations 'patently false.' 'I know Father Maciel very well,' Williams told ABCNEWS. 'I've lived with him for 10 years.' Williams has never asked him about the allegations, but when the Courant ran the story in 1997, Legion spokesman released a statement denying the allegations. Williams said the men making the accusations against Macial can't be believed because they didn't raise the sexual abuse charges in the 1950s when Vatican investigators were looking into other matters relating to Maciel. According to Williams, the Vatican investigated Marciel on counts of mismanagement of funds, drug and substance abuse and drug trafficking. The Vatican pronounced Maciel innocent of those charges and reinstated him as superior general to the Legion. In addition, Williams noted, a ninth accuser retracted similar allegations, claiming he was pressured to lie by the other eight accusers. Those men stand by their story, now an open challenge to both the pope and Ratzinger, who just this week proclaimed there is no place for pedophiles in the church during the Vatican meetings with American cardinals. 'It does not inspire much faith,' said Berry.

Subject: Sex scandal and religion: horse and carriage? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:49:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you think about it, isn't it rather fitting that sex of all things would be the thing to rock the foundation of all these religions and cults (Sai Baba, Hara Krishna, Muktananda, Buddhists this and that, now the Catholic church and, of course, the Prem Rawat Foundation)? Sex is the ultimate pawn or sacrificial totem for religion. But it's also the ultimate real drive for people exploiting the world for what they can get out of it. However it's used, it's the big gambit. But now, as information flows more easily than ever, in these modern times of legal redress and all that, sex and religion are meeting head-on and religion's losing. I think I'm going to buy an early Madonna album.

Subject: Italy and Spain are the only two countries.. From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:08:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....in the west which currently do not have pedophilia cases pending against priests. They are of course the most Catholic of countries and they also tolerate clerical sodaticism as long as it is only with little boys. Every other European country as well as north America have cases pending. Law need not get his clerical tits in a tangle in Rome as priests fiddling with little boys is tolerated there. They've been doing it ever since Nero fiddled with little boys while Rome burnt.

Subject: O/T From: Hope To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:59:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hockey coach child molester has just got a job in Spain as a Hockey Coach......Are they mad???

Subject: Are they mad??? From: PatC To: Hope Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:50:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hockey coach child molester has just got a job in Spain as a Hockey Coach......Are they mad??? --- Maybe. Cultures of the Sodatic Zone such as Spain, Italy, Greece and the Middle East tolerate male on male pederasty. They may not be mad but they are definitely behind the times.

Subject: Re: Move Jagdeo to Malibu? From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:09:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Vatican has no choice but to move Law (because he is so grateful and all) out of the country before the real Law charges him with CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. What do you think, Jim? Who could believe that a sane person would knowingly transfer paedophiles John Geoghan and Paul Shanley from parish to parish. I confess I laughed when I read: a) Shanley publicly endorsed sex between men and boys b) Shanley's diary excerpts 'Much of my life these last few years has been choosing not twixt good and evil, but the less of the two evils c) teaching young people the art of shooting up and d) 'One of the first things I do in a new city is to sign up at the local clinic for help with my VD.'

Subject: What's THIS all about? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The laughter continued when Maharaji started speaking to an English woman, who was true to the stereotype having difficulty expressing what she wanted to say. He said that she wasn't English - that was a language - but British - and that everything was 'lovely'. A truly British sort of word, that kept on being repeated and repeated topeels of laughter. And it seemed tobe quickly adopted by people of all nations as they walked away from the campground in the lucid air of a brilliantly clear dusk. First, Maharaji's wrong about the use of the word 'english': Main Entry: 1En·glish Pronunciation: 'i[ng]-glish, 'i[ng]-lish Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old English englisc, from Engle (plural) Angles Date: before 12th century : of, relating to, or characteristic of England , the English people, or the English language - En·glish·ness noun but what's new about that? He's wrong about half the stuff he talks about in the real world. But what's with this english people characteristically having difficulty expressing themselves? Funny, eh?

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's abject nonsense. So maybe our passports say British - that's because you can't get Welsh or Scottish passports. England is the piece of land south of Scotland and east of Wales and Ireland, and the people who were born there are at liberty to call themselves English, for the record. 'British' covers the British Isles. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:19:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what's with this english people characteristically having difficulty expressing themselves? Like, Milton, Keats, Shelley, etc etc

Subject: Re: What's THIS all about? From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:22:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV In that panthean of excellence you list you seem to have missed out people like Livia and AV :) Also T.S. Elliot warmly, Thorin

Subject: I don't think that From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:07:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: William Shakespeare had much difficulty expressing himself. Nor Churchill, Thatcher, Charles Dickens, Darwin... etc. They were all from England. However, this purile fascination with the word, ''Lovely''. I did wonder why premies on LG were all using it suddenly. The Prem Rawat fan club has become so ridiculous. I mean, there's no problem people sharing private jokes amongst themselves but to expect other people to see it as anything else other than a tiny cult of immature individuals... Well!

Subject: Re: I don't think From: Gail To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:29:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Sir David: Didn't English start in your country? one of the glutteral derivatives of German and well established after the Norman Conquest? I'm just a lowly commonwealth Cannuck, eh! Canadians have a generic accent which makes them easily understood by ESL persons, but the Brits ... sort of like Canadians and their hockey. When it come to the real thing (English) I take it from the horse's mouth, otherwise known as the Queen.

Subject: A brief history of English From: Sir Dave To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:42:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: English is derived from the language the Angles and the Saxons brought over from Germany and the Netherlands - Anglo-Saxon. So it is Germanic but has had a lot of foreign influences thrown into it. The Romans left their Latin of which some was mixed into the AngloSaxon. There's a lot of French in English from the Norman Conquest, some Danish and Norwegan from the Vikings who came before the Normans and strangely enough, quite a bit of Spanish although that may be because of the Roman Latin that's mixed in. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain as the Romans were hastily leaving in the 400s, the then English people fled to Wales and Ireland and some parts of Scotland and it is reckoned that the Welsh language is the closest language there is to the pre-AngloSaxon tongue that was spoken. So the original language spoken here around the time of Christ would have been closely related to Welsh and was Celtic, since the people living in England then were mostly Celts. The AngloSaxons brought their Germanic language which has been the base language spoken here ever since, although it has changed and been added to over the centuries.

Subject: Re: A brief history of English From: Blondie To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 17:45:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given that propaganda ain't much liked on this Forum - lets not give over everything to the Anglo Saxon scholars of the last century, whose denigration of the Welsh and Gaelic languages had them prefering Swahili as a contributor to modern English than to admit any Welsh, Scots, Cornish or heaven forbid, Irish influence in the creation of the English language. The Queens English - well the House of Saxe Coburg Gotha - our ruling elite, does indeed have its own language - stultified and strangled, just like a certain image that the English have for the last 150 years promulgated as good emotional health; stiff upper lip and all that. All bollocks of course. Ask anyone in England these days, what makes them English you would mostly get a blank stare. And the writings of Keats and Shakespear - vomitory expositions of aristochratic soft handed gentlemen. To understand English as she is spoken by the natives, and for the best indication of the spirit in which Anglo Saxon, Ancient Welsh and Old Latin got mashed into a tongue that only has rules that are made to be broken, that pathalogically rips off any useful word from any other language, that changes the meaning of words without any good reason, or explanation (and allows very, very long sentances gasp!) read the poetry of John Cooper Clarke or listen to the lyrics of the Jam or Sex Pistols. Oh and the Celts of Eastern England, couldn't runaway to Wales or Ireland -there were people there already who would not have welcomed a trebling of their populations. Some of the post Roman Celts may have been wiped out, but most probably just fitted in with a new regime and a new set of fashions.

Subject: Why I have no respect for Dog From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:21:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a long, ongoing discussion, where I was offering to send him a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker and he was either avoiding the issue or, when pressed, throwing up Alan Watts' version of the hindu creation myth, he finally posted this answer to my offer: Alan Watts was making a distinction between different types of people. A useful distinction IMO. No, I don't need another theory on how we evolved into human beings. I have enough theories. Unless, of course, you promise me that this theory will: - help me relax and feel better, - improve my health, - help me deal with the day to day stresses of life, and - help with the car payments. What Dog left off his list is 'better understanding who we are and how we got here' I think that should go somewhere between helth and car payments. :) No, Dog is most certainly afraid of KNOWLEDGE -- real knowledge and I can't respect that, especially from someone who feels entitled to offer us his own unsolicited sermons as he himself calls them. Frankly, that looks merely cowardly to me. Dog, just my personal wish, of course, but I do wish that you'd get lost from here. Everyone else that posts regularly is either a current cult member, and we know about them, or an ex who, unlike you, really does want to understand life better. You don't and thus are just a major irritant -- to me anyway.

Subject: Re: Why I have no respect for Dog From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:20:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must say it does look as if Dog would rather not read the book. When he says he's already got enough theories it sounds more as if he's decided how he wants to see it and he doesn't want to budge from that. It's his pregogative to see the world in whatever way he wants, but if he wants to come on and argue with atheists, then he has to be prepared to defend his arguments. It's no good just saying 'it's a feeling' or 'I just know' or 'because I feel it then it's true' or 'the Buddhist books say so'. We all did that for years and it won't do. After all, Sai Baba devotees 'just know' as do the followers of Sun Myung Moon and all the rest. And born-again Christians. And the followers of every religion and belief sytem. We had a serial killer in England named the Yorkshire Ripper who killed prostitutes because 'God told him to'. Dog, if you're reading this, you can only know for certain that you have experiences that are out of the ordinary (if you do), and that make you feel good (if they do). But you can't know for certain what those experiences are, or what they mean (if anything). You can have your private theories that tie up with things you've read, but if you put them into print, people will argue with you, because there's always the possibility that your theories are wrong. And anyway, have you forgotten the old truism 'the more you know the less you know'? or 'he who thinks he knows, knows nothing'? It's just concepts, more concepts, and yet more concepts. Over on LG someone said to me 'it's an EXPERIENCE, it's a FEELING' (as if I were a complete idiot). Of course I know it's all that, and I've been there and all the rest of it. But it's in the interpretation of the feeling and the experience that the trouble starts. Dog has a theory of the universe and doesn't want it shaken. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Why I have no respect for Dog From: Dep =) To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 19:12:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I just finished reading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey. Loved it! Fantasic book. I am simply not interested in evolution. I find it boring and won't waste my time reading about it. I also don't like tennis, or model airplanes, or mountain climbing. You have a problem with that?

Subject: That's the way things are, Jim From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 01:09:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I currently have a job that involves reading the internet and it hit me the other day how many irrational beliefs people hold. It's quite staggering. I want to shout at everyone 'Have you actually thought about what you believe?', but there are too many to shout at. But maybe it's worth shouting at Dog. John.

Subject: Yeah, I know what you mean From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 14:36:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night had a few friends over and someone starts getting into the 'Hunt the Boeing' hoax. I couldn't find the attached link which I'd seen before, the site where two guys just give a well-deserved bum's rush to this bullshit, so I was left listening to these guys go off on this stuff -- and I did, at time, wonder what this world was coming to. Oh yeah. No, it probably isn't worthwhile yelling at Dog but as long as he keeps showing up where I do -- namely here -- and sermonizes his stupid spiritual stuff, I'll keep reminding him that he was too cowardly to even peak at the scientific explanation for things. Why? Don't know. Maybe it just pleases me to do so. Maybe it's like automatic, kind of. Human nature? Debunking the Flight 77 hoax paulboutin.weblogger.com/2002/03/14

Subject: You are DISGUSTING man From: An observer To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:19:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do I have this right? This person doesn't want a book that will tell them there is no such thing as the heart, soul, or conscience is now forced to leave the forum. What do the rest of you people think about this post?

Subject: FA I think this thread should be deleted [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:36:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why should anyone start a new thread with a personal grudge ? If jim doesnt want to talk to Dep... then he can ignore him.. isnt it better to argue in response to a post or somewhere else ?

Subject: Not a ''grudge.'' Jim knows Dog well. From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:58:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, I talk the same way to SFJim on Life is Great because I know him well in real life. One can be more confrontational with someone you know well. It's not quite the same as some anonymous troll taking personal digs. But I'm staying out of their argument because I don't know Dog - although god knows I have tried. :C)

Subject: Re: Not a ''grudge.'' Jim told Dog to leave From: An observer To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:27:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not a grudge? He also said he resents him. That is a hateful and psychotic thing to say to someone who refuses to become just like him. Open your eyes.

Subject: Thanks, An Observer. I agree! [nt] From: Dep =) To: An observer Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:40:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So that was 'psychotic', Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 16:00:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what you agree with?: This is not a grudge? He also said he resents him. That is a hateful and psychotic thing to say to someone who refuses to become just like him. Open your eyes. Anyone who pontificates about human nature on the basis of every spiritual cliche in the world but who, at the same time, refuses to learn anything about the scientific explanation for human nature, is a measly coward, if you ask me. No, it's not personal. I'd say that about anyone like you. If that's psychotic, sign me up.

Subject: I resent that From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:50:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I completely resent your minimizing my conflict with Dep to the level of a 'personal grudge'. How insulting.

Subject: I think this thread should be deleted [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:31:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why? [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:32:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Cos its of no interest to me ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:37:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Then don't read it! From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:45:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Too Late ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 02:51:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Too bad! [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:49:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim Why Do you always put Shit........ From: Sir Real Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On People that dont agree with you?

Subject: Quit using my name -- FA? From: Jim To: Sir Real Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:59:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw off. FA, is there any way of telling who this is?

Subject: Re: Quit using my name -- FA? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:36:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''FA, is there any way of telling who this is?'' Not really. Hey anonymouse using Jim's handle, pick another handle and stick to it or else your posts will be treated as spam - ie deleted.

Subject: Re: Quit using my name -- FA? From: James is my real name To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:05:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But the majority of people call me Jim. Is James OK here?

Subject: Why don't I believe you? From: Jim To: James is my real name Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 11:20:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But the majority of people call me Jim. Is James OK here? --- Why do I have this niggling feeling that you're just trying to confuse people re who's posting? Could it be that that's exactly what you started doing, using my name in a very dull, premie-dull to be exact, way of trying to parody me? And now you're saying that Jim just happens to be your name too? You couln't possibly be a liar, could you?

Subject: Hi James. Yes James is fine From: PatC To: James is my real name Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:44:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Using your other handle ''Sir Real Jim'' causes unnecessary confusion. Thanks and welcome.

Subject: How about Surreal Gym? From: Cat To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I loved that play on words!

Subject: thank you PatC ! From: James To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:57:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Kissinger From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:04:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've decided, when Kissinger gets K and voluntarily presents himself to the human rights court in the Hague I'll go back to being a full time right on sister in prems lila. Oh, just realised he's not into that Indian nonsense any more shame.

Subject: Our Prime Minister Saw the Lard From: Gail To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:41:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep! Pierre Elliot Trudeau went to see him in Montreal. I saw him there twice, myself, and I heard he was there on another occasion! This was right after he lost his last election to the American rat, Brian Mulrooney!

Subject: pierre ellliot used to be a pothead too From: sleeper 786 To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:50:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Leno on Robert Blake (OT) From: Dep To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:06:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ask Jay Leno if Robert Blake is guilty of murdering his wife and he answers enthusiastically: 'Of course, he's guilty. Pull-ease! This is L.A.' Whether Blake will be convicted is another matter. 'They have the murder weapon, the motive, 900 pieces of evidence, 37,000 pages of documents and two witnesses,' said Leno. 'But, hey, this is L.A. You're going to need a lot more than that to convince a jury.'

Subject: I'll be right there with you, B. Shri (nt) From: Gregg To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:44:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: n

Subject: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:20:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David Roupell said on Life is Great premie forum: You pretty much said it all, that's exactly how it was for me and everyone else I know. The most hassle free, easy going, casual intimate, profound event yet at the rock. One of the pointers for me was seeing Cath and George (Amaroo CEOs) a couple of days before the event. They were really blissed out, things were loking good, this meant that all arrangements and organisation was running nice and easy. So it was indeed (I was in the busy information booth every day, no dramas.) I met bossy boots the day before the event and had a thrilling time. I am known for being blunt with him (hey, if you can't be real with him who can you be real with?) and this was no exception. While I was looking at him chatting away in his car I tried to recall some of the hideous things that ex-premies have said about him and ...well, I just burst out laughing. It was like holding a match up in front of a huge bush bonfire, hilarious!! He said 'Oh, I'm that funny this morning am I ? he he' 'No no', I said giggling, 'I was just thinking about what absolute shyte some people say about you!' Everyone cracked up. He laughed, then looked at me in the eye with one of those serious, sincere, slightly sad resigned looks and said... 'They always have - and they always will.' From then on until now I haven't given those daft darkies a second's thought. They'll always be around, like dogshit on your shoe. There was an added scenario that was a blast this time. My 20 year old daughter flew up to Brisbane, received Knowledge on 17th, celebrated her 21st on Saturday and met Maharaji on the Sunday. He chose her first name in 1981 so it was special for her to meet him as an adult. Some of these younger generation 20 somethings are a new batch off the lot, they are so focussed and one pointed towards love and truth, I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!! 7.30 one morning we did the bush walk up to the ridge between the two rocks with 150 people from all over the world, what a gas that was. Everybody chatted like old friends and it was really funny at times. On the last night we had a late night party in the Pavilion and Padarthanand shared some wonderful memories of Aussie old days with the new prems there, Lindsay F, Deni and some others sang fantastic songs, we drank, hugged and made very merry with a bunch of other partygoers. A great ending to another magical, timeless experience of being with the guy who has worked harder than any of us to make it all happen. Cheers Maharaji, I'll be speaking to you again in Sept. I replied: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, David. I think it's the most sincere thing you have ever written. Thank you. I got a real glimpse into what took place in Amaroo. I know it was beautiful for you and I honestly don't begrudge you that. Now, I'm going to say something to you that is not PC among exes. I have come to the conclusion that you (and the other premies whom I know personally) have exactly what you always wanted and that it makes you happy. It is good that us disgruntled premies have left and that you now have him to yourselves. The thing is that Rev Rawat's trip should always have been as small and intimate as your recent gathering. The tradition in Hinduism is for the guru to have only a small following so that he can give you all the personal attention needed from a teacher to a student. What is the use of a living master if you can't play with him? The problem is that he did stretch himself a bit thin for nearly thirty years by doing his messianic trip - bigger than Krishna, Jesus and Buddha all rolled into one - you know bringing peace to the WHOLE WORLD etc and some of us (who were never meant to be caught up in a guru cult) got sucked in by the hype. This is what our beef is. Well, we all dropped out and now you have your living master to yourselves and you are welcome to it. Seriously. I don't see you or him as evil or a threat. I don't want revenge on Rev Rawat. I don't hate him or you. I'm just glad that I finally figured out that I was not supposed to be involved with him. But I still feel like making a cheap joke at your expense just to get back at you for being Cerise. You said: ''From then on until now I haven't given those daft darkies (ex-premies) a second's thought. They'll always be around, like dogshit on your shoe.'' Good for you, David, and you really don't have to give any more thought to us ''darkies.'' If you don't like what the ex-premies have to offer - just walk . ;) PS I'm going to re-post your report from the trenches (and my reply) on F7 as I feel that it really is good and very precisely conveys the intimate experience you recently had with Prem. I'm hoping that it will bring exes up to date on the current premie scene. I know you'll get flamed but take it from whence it comes. :C) PPS Some of us seldom get dog-shit on our shoes. We're too conscious/aware/alert/observant. Or maybe it's because I always carry a pooper-scooper as I've got so many dogs. :)

Subject: 'Club Prem' is the BEST! :) (nt) From: Andrea Eriksonn To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Word from the Bottom of the Shoe From: Gregg To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:02:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, PatC, you've got a point. The PWK's are having a good time, and I don't begrudge them their fun. Maharaji isn't the worst of the cult leaders. He's not one of those guys who're going to lead his followers to mass suicide. Despite being psychologically crippled by his bizarre upbringing, he's not psychopathic. Sociopathic, maybe. The reports from Amaroo were pleasant enough. It kind of reminds me of what folks say about their born-again experiences in Christian groups. The knowing glances, the smugness that comes with knowing your group is saved by a special knowledge, the comfortable security, the smooth syrupy air of spiritual/trance states etc. I know this sounds elitist, but I only wish the PWK's could entertain the possibility that if they would only risk a little more they could really open themselves up to bigger experiences. So much growth can occur when one moves out of one's comfort zone. So, yeah, it must sound like sour grapes and elitist dogshit from the perspective of the PWK's. But in truth, a lot of what we say here is well-intentioned. We used to be premies and have benefitted from stepping out of the coziness of the club into the universe at large...and we'd like to encourage others to do the same. Not to follow us into another exclusive club, because we've all gone into different directions, spiritual, scientific...But freedom is freedom, and being in thrall to Prem Pal Rawat just seems a little limiting to those of us who have moved on.

Subject: more new terminology! From: Livia To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:56:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lots more new terminology to switch over to instantly! Out - programme In - event Out - darshan line In - greeting line Out - Maharaji In - Prem (but that one's old hat now) And that's just in the last few days! Sheesh! Love, Livia

Subject: Rock Campground for overgrown campers From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:29:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [This was the Rock's] most hassle free ....event yet. I met bossy boots before the event and had a thrilling time. I am known for being blunt with him (if you can't be real with him who can you be real with?) BLUNT????? Bossie boots is understated--how about tyrannical dictator with a captive audience who believes he's the Lord! This is real? I [observed] him chatting away . . . and tried to recall some of the hideous things ex-premies have said about him ... I was just thinking about what absolute shyte some people say about you!' Everyone cracked up. Ya, right! Premies only think about their doubts--they don't say them. Prem [gave a] serious, sincere, slightly sad, resigned look and said... 'They always have [criticized me]- and they always will.' Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because his LORDSHIP is a fraud. Maybe it's because he fleeced us for tons of money and 2.5-3 decades of our lifetime. We did the bush walk 150 people from all over the world. What a gas that was. Everybody chatted like old friends and it was really funny at times. This is exciting? He's from the ROCK--or under it! Maybe David's mother wouldn't let him go on organized camping trips as a youngster so he has to do it now as a senior! We had a late-night party in the Pavilion and Padarthanand [talked about the good ol' days] and we [drank, hugged and made merry]. This is because the new days suck! The throng was electric back then. It'hard to muster up the same exuberance after 30 years of lies, revisions and nothingness! Nowadays, drinks are required to elevate the mood--SSMD just don't cut the mustard with Prem's new partygoers! And, lest we forget ... Another magical, timeless experience of being with the guy [Creator] who has worked harder than any of us to make it all happen. 'Not a leaf moves ...' and 'Only Goomraji makes thingS happen.' Magic alright! The only magic going on at Rock Campground for Overgrown Campers is: SEE YOUR DOLLAR? NOW YOU DON'T! SEE YOUR DOLLAR? NOW YOU DON'T!--Watch for snakes and eat the pasta, bow and scrape, it's the MASTA...

Subject: Re: more new terminology! From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:11:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out - Satguru, Guru, Lord, Maharaji In - Bossy Boots Out - Divine Light Mission, Divine United Organization, Élan Vital In - The Prem Rawat Foundation Out - Company of truth, Satsang In - Dish Network broadcast

Subject: Prem love their WARDEN [nt] From: Of course, Prisoners of To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:40:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A throughly evolved cultist From: Tonette To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:29:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are several aspects of your excellent post that I would like to add my two cents on. However, I unfortunatly have time only for a quick reply. I just don't believe that this father, this David Roupell, would indoctrinate his daughter into the confines of M's cult. Appalling! What I am referring to is this: 'There was an added scenario that was a blast this time. My 20 year old daughter flew up to Brisbane, received Knowledge on 17th, celebrated her 21st on Saturday and met Maharaji on the Sunday. He chose her first name in 1981 so it was special for her to meet him as an adult. Some of these younger generation 20 somethings are a new batch off the lot, they are so focussed and one pointed towards love and truth, I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!!' What especially caught my eye was the referance to his own daughter as 'the new batch off the lot.' Despicable, revolting, dispiteous, disrespectful, repugnant referance to his own flesh and blood. And he obviously is as happy as a 'pig in shit' that his daughter has bought for now, committed to, a life of servitude to the worst sort of con, an unkind man, a charlatan. I wonder what her name is? Satganga or Sunita? Did she ever have a chance to make up her own mind since she was brought up in a home focused on one thing as the be-all to her very life. KNOWLEDGE. No doubt allowed, no siree, by Roupell's account. This is the way it is kid. It's true because well, you'll see one day when you get knowledge yourself. I wonder if there was a picture of M hanging over her crib as an infant? Family vacations probably consisted of travelling to events. And mention of her mother is curiously absent. She didn't have a chance. Join or forever never know the most important aspect of your own father. Good grief, I think I'll go vomit now. Tonette

Subject: Have you finished vomiting yet? From: DR To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:13:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, you definitely have some kind of a sickness. Your posts all reek of it. 1/ The new 'batch off the lot' is a general reference to today's 20 something generation, not the new people who receive K. I have many friends with children the same age, my observation has nothing to do with M or K. If you lived in the real world you would also have observed that today's 20 somethings are way way smarter and sharper and less full of doubt and fear than we were at that age. Open up. 2/ None of my three daughters were ever told to go to satsang or receive K. She rang me two weeks before the event and told me what she'd been doing and what she planned to do. It was the most delightful surprise for me (and her equally delighted and encouraging mother). Neither of us have ever laid a trip on any of the kids and they really appreciate that. The other two dig Maharaji but don't go to events or have K. Figure it out. Boy - does that dogshit stink...!

Subject: Ah yes, Satgqanga or Sunita... From: Jim S. To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:20:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette- I think it was our community coordinator in DC who's daughter was given the 'Sunita' name...and I remember hearing m say at a program that he had just named some poor suckers daughter 'Satganga'....I remember thinking at the time that this really was a cult, and a pretty stupid, lame one at that... It's amazing to hear the 'cat' talk about kids growing up in families that don't have fear or doubt....most premies I know have incredible fear about leaving the guru, and incredible doubts about themselves and their own abilities....10-12 years in he ashram has left some of these people with serious psychological problems that they are afraid to face.....the 'revisionist history' is amazing.... Pat C's comment is right on....the tiny personaity cult that is left is prbably what it should have been all along...I personally am quite OK with premies running all over the world to see and hear the latest jokes and expressions from the guru, if that's what they want....it's just a shame that maharaji didn't listen to a lot of his personal advisors 30 years ago, instead of playing the 'saviour' game for so long, and sucking so many people dry.... When you read some of the premies responses, it becomes so obvious that nothing profound is said, and the fan club aspect becomes sillier and sillier....it makes me wonder why some of these premies don't take 'the light' they have supposedly been shown and put it into their own life, instead of focusing it on the guru....I have one friend you probably remember from DC whose life is a joke, and will freely admit that, but continually runs back to the feet of the master, because he says that m and k are the only things that work for him...pretty pathetic, when you see the results in some of these peoples lives...

Subject: Re: A throughly evolved cultist From: The Other Neville To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:54:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Tonette, that's how I felt when the daughter was mentioned. Nauseated. The non-heroic, non-placard-carrying, non-Australian Neville

Subject: To the witty and endearing Neville From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:23:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Neville, you may not hold placards aloft, and you may not be brave or heroic - and you may never even leave your house as far as I know, but you sound very lovable. Big hug to you Liv XX

Subject: Ah, gosh, you're too kind [nt] From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, good point From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:20:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did Roupell encourage her to actually invesigate Maharaji for herself or did he just invite her into the same kind of warm bathwater he's been floating in for years? Interesting, isn't it?

Subject: Re: Yes, good point From: The Other Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:57:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Suddenly I find I highly value rebellion against parents. The non-Australian Neville

Subject: Re: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: Livia To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:23:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's also noticeable that in David Roupell's description of his exchanges with Maharaji, there are several things going on. His exact word-for-word reporting of everything that was said demonstrates an astounding sycophantism. 'I am known for being blunt with him.' Hmmm! What if David ever had a serious question that contained critical comment? How blunt would he dare to be then, I wonder? But then the occasion would probably never arise, because his projection onto Maharaji goes too deep. And anyway, how blunt, exactly, was his remark to Maharaji? It was abject praise that contained the word 'shyte'. Wow! How bold!!! Then he mentions the hilarity from premies that greeted his words. Wow! Positive re-inforcement from all the premies as well as from Maharaji! It must have been an ego-inflating moment that knew no bounds, really. But those moments are common in Maharaji's world - I remember them well. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the premies left are mostly if not all saddled with serious personality problems relaing to issues of self-esteeem, going back to childhood. They probably all had critical, neglectful or absent fathers (or mothers), and have projected all their needs to be loved onto Maharaji. They then imagine that he loves them in the way they needed to be loved, but weren't, sadly, when they needed to be. I was reading an article yesterday about drug rehabilitation clinics and how well the 12-step programme can work. It involves belief in a higher power, and apparently after leaving these clinics a lot of the ex-addicts turn to religion. Either that, or they return to their drug of choice. To a man/woman, they all suffer from poor self-esteem. Premies have similar problems, and have chosen Maharaji to be their 'higher power'. I once knew a premie who became an ex but then immediately joined AA although she didn't have a drink problem. (Strange I know, but there you go.) She had an enormous need for a self affirming group that believed in a higher power. When premies grow up, their need to believe in Maharaji begins to fade. They all suffer from arrested development. Love, Livia

Subject: An ego-inflating moment ? From: DR To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 06:30:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You bet Ms psychobabble! Thanks for your constantly upgraded fully integrated wise and wonderful judgement of all that is cult, and your pet peevy version of ALL premies (how's that for meglodelusional?!) and their deep childhood related uneresolved teenage sexual drug and alcohol issues. My dad was just over here for 3 weeks, we had the best time ever. Funny that isn't it? He also mentioned that of all his kids, this black duck had the most exciting and fulfilled life of them all, with 'priorities' (sic) in the right order. Mmmm ...Yea, there's a real problem to work on there. Maybe I'll try the 12 steps, they seem to have worked well for you. But dear Libbie, the ego inflation comes from watching hyenas like you scrabble for the morsals of incredibility on this forum by pulling apart a post that was specifically designed to feed your debased yet superior mindset and allow your little F7 buddies to praise your great, inciteful work. Hey - they did!! Morons!!! You better ask Patsie about it's real value though, he's the idiot who picked up the bait and dangled it in front of you desperados. Hasn't he realised that all the Three (dozen) Musketeers do here (in internet chat rooms) is toy with youz all? Play Play Play. Geezus Cristoss! How many incarnations does it take?? Any more of this uninhibited moronic lunacy from you people and cerise is coming back. That's not a threat, it's a promise. And this time she'll have a loaded baseball bat. Don't worry but, there'll be another premuim grade post for you to pomouserize all over soon enough. So...be on the lookout for a new poster (name that is), a confused premie, on the verge of a breakdown and looking for help on F7 - a perfect vict...sorry 'friend' for you to assist. In the mean time I would strongly suggest you KEEP reading articles about drug rehabilitation clinics, a very telling habit. Now, I gotta run, am having a personal private phonelinkup with PremPal, I want to confront him about the quality of champagne at the latest event. It wasn't up to my standard and I'm always blunt and truthful with him, as you now know, so a bit a confrontation is in order I reckon. Don't you? I mean, the Grace was premium quality as per usual, but by golly don't you agree that the booze should be as well. Fuck'n oath! Oh yea sirreee, there'll be some hot words flying through the international telephone lines in a minute....Malibu here I come!

Subject: Re: An ego-inflating moment ? From: Livia To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 08:27:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goodness,DR, you do sound hot under the collar today. What's your problem I wonder? I seem to have aroused considerable ire from you guys for daring to go over to your rather sad little forum over there and asking what I thought was a perfectly valid question about grace. My mistake obviously. I should have known better than to even attempt to debate with any of you guys, with the exception of maybe Isabella, Rachel and sfjim who at least have the decency to respond with respect to people whose views differ from their own. Funny that - it actually inspires you to respect them back. But you, DR just get hotter and hotter under the collar. Those who protest too much - why don't you just lighten up a little? And if you dislike this forum so much why do you bother coming over here? I've been called a 'barren old hag', 'lost' and now you imply that I've done the 12-step programme because I quoted from an article about the subject (that I'd read in that very day's Sunday paper.) Wow! That must mean I've been/am an alcoholic!!! Reading and quoting from that article that day was such a giveaway, I should have known better!!! And you've got a great relationship with your father too! So my theory that every single premie who ever drew breath has got a dodgy relationship with a parent has been well and truly pulled apart by your insightful self. Have you never encountered a tendency my dear friend? Have you never noticed that many, many premies suffered from bad relationships with their parents? poor self esteem? problems in functioning in the real world? a disproportionate need to have the world explained to them rather than deal in an adult way with life's uncertainties? For the record, there are plenty of premies out there who are the only disfunctional one in highly successful, fulfilled families. And I mean plenty. Maybe you DR, and your merry bunch of friends and acquaintances are unique exceptions, but out of the literally hundreds and hundreds of premies I have known over a 20 year period, from every walk of premie life, the above descriptions have a certain relevance. There is a pattern. Attempt to deny it but you'll fool no-one. A bit like the racist who has plenty Jews and black people for friends. Yeah, yeah. And ego boosting on the forum here? It's called sharpening up your thinking, duh, something that was never exactly a priority in the premie world. It's debate, ditto. It's attempting to work things out and recognise that things are not always what they seem. To you it's all ego boosting crap - well, there are plenty reading who don't see it your way, even if there may be equal numbers of grateful premies reading and shaking their heads with disgust at the amount of naked mind and ego they see here. People will see what they see through the filters of their prejudices and boy you premies have more prejudices than most, although you're unable to see it. Go back to your shrinking cult, DR. Livia

Subject: addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:56:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just realised that you may have thought I was referring to myself when describing the woman who joined AA after becoming an ex. My reading the article seemed to back this up, for some reason. (??) Well, sorry to disappoint you but no, it wasn't me, it was a dear friend who, as it happened, has since died. You smell far too many rats. Livia

Subject: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: The Other Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good analysis of the psychology, Livia. I have another take on it the subject: M teaches pantheism, a system within which God is essentially impersonal and every aspect of personality--the ability to love, feel, respond etc--is seen an error, something to be stamped out. (Does this sound familiar? Do you know any premies suffering from triple personality bypass?) I recall Bal Bhagwan Ji (prior to his fall from grace) saying of our souls that, 'The only attribute of atman is that it is attributeless.' This is the picture of the human heart that underpins M's teaching. But it is wrong: we are people, and we need other people. Hence pantheistic cults are, paradoxically, centred around a cult leader (this seems to be the pattern in India, where such a figure is the norm), someone who can put a human face on the harsh, impersonal visage of God. (Non-pantheistic cults also idolise leaders, but I would contend that it is in a different way.) Hence the concept of Darshan. Hence the desperate need to be in M's presence. Hence the exaggerated reaction to anything 'human' M does--the Krishna dance, the weak jokes etc. In a sense, an event like Amaroo is the only opportunity premies have to be human, which is probably why their attempts seem so clumsy: they are very out of practice... The non-Australian etc Neville

Subject: A most enjoyable read, Neville. Thanks. [nt] From: PatC To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:05:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: Livia To: The Other Neville Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:45:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very good point, Neville. You're right; it's bhakti yoga, plain and simple. I wonder how many gurus there are in India claiming to be Satguru? Does anyone have a rough idea? The theory is, though, as Shri Hans Ji pointed out, that the Satguru must be of impeccable character, otherwise the whole thing doesn't work. The premies project so heavily onto Maharaji and are so convinced of who they think he is, that any objective evaluation of his character went out the window years ago, if it was ever there in the first place. Their own characters then become corrupted through the long-term worship of someone who is all too human. it happens over a period of years. This is why, as someone reported here a week or so ago, the new premies are still relatively clear and bright. It's the older ones that have gradually lost the plot through a too-long association with someone who is not what he purports to be. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: After the psychology...the philosophy... From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:34:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'the new premies are still relatively clear and bright' hey, they always were; its a few years down the line you need to check'em out......always play the long game; there's no such thing as a quick fix, and certainly no such thing as a free lunch! When you put somone beyond question, you put yourself beyond reason; and if reason cannot find you, what value are your realisations? Luv AV

Subject: How many Satgurus are there? From: PatC channeling Prem Rawat To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:19:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You asked: ''I wonder how many gurus there are in India claiming to be Satguru? Does anyone have a rough idea?'' At one of the Q and A sessions (printed up in one of those little booklets) that Prempal held when he was still a little pimple around 72 or 73 someone asked him: ''I've heard that there are many gurus in India who claim to be Satguru. How many Satgurus are there?'' Rev Pimple answered: ''365 - one for every day of the year but I am YOUR Satguru.'' Pure bhakti yoga - primitive rubbish. Belief is relief. We may have been conned BUT our testimony here will make sure that this con is not perpetrated again in the west on such a messianic scale as Rawat's and it's time will soon be up in the east too. I hope. What silly feudalistic nonsense.

Subject: More than enough satgurus From: Richard To: PatC channeling Prem Rawat Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:07:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Google turns up more SatGurus than you can shake a forum at. This link is a site featuring 3, count 'em 3 Satgurus. One was even born and raised in California. LOL Here's one glorifying a Sat Guru's Mahasamadhi (a bit ghoolish): http://www.poonja.com/mahasamadhi.htm Satgurus www.gurudeva.org/index.shtml

Subject: Yes, isn't Roupell funny that way? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell's a real piece of work with his 'wild and crazy kinda guy' act within the safe nrusery room walls of his cult. You're absolutely right, Liv. His 'I'm known for being blunt' is a farce given the servile attitude he has for the guy. I don't know. Some people actually bought designer, stone-washed jeans and some didn't. Roupell's swagger is as funny as Cat's version is as funny as Mili's is as funny as CD's. They're all comedians in a way. Can you imagine a road-trip movie with the four of them in a car together, perhaps following Maharaji around Europe or something? Oh god, I'm starting to laugh to myself now .... oh no, I'm like really laughing now .... LOL!!!!! :)

Subject: Re: self esteem From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:24:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could write abook on what you just said Liv, god, the low self esteem thing is set in concrete as a pwk, some terminology substitutes would not go amiss for 'higher power', read 'all-pervading power' maybe. the only way pwks seem to have of overcoming the self esteem thing is by sudden and irrational shifts into anger, aggression , and worse ,full scale manipulation by hi-honchos; why do I say this? because I've seen myself do it over the years, and only recently have started to be like a REGULAR GUY WITHOUT ANY 'HIGHER AGENDA', and you know what, people like being around me more....there's a f*****g suprise huh???

Subject: Addendum - brainwave! From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:47:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The personality problems that premies tend to suffer from (low self-esteem, etc) are the reason it is pretty pointless debating with them. They have projected so powerfully onto Maharaji that their need to maintain this projection overrides any foray into rational, objective thought. This need will compel them into a pick-and-mix list of rationalisations from which they will draw almost at random. You can attempt to refute each one with rationality but they will spin and deflect at every turn. I know this, because I did it myself for years, and recognise every argument I hear these days coming from premies. I used to use the exact same arguments myself. The only time it's worth debating with premies is when they're beginning to grow/wake up, and withdraw their projection onto Maharaji. They then begin to become free to examine him as he really is, not how they'd like him to be, which is, of course, the ideal father figure; the father who really loves them, really cares about them, really knows about them (and understands everything else to boot.) This is when the scales begin to fall from their eyes and everything falls into a different order. Premies are terrified of this happening to them, because the scariest thing for them is to learn to live without the imagined but desperately needed total love of a perfect father. Even abused children cling to the belief that their abusing parent actually really loved them; so it's not difficult to see the mechanism at work in adult premies too. Where there is manipulation, the abused child sees love. Where there is indifference, the abused child sees love. Where there is manipulation, the premie sees love. Where there is indifference, the premie sees love, because he/she needs to - plain and simple. The problem facing premies is that unless they find a life outside Maharaji's world, and start making true friends who aren't premies, they are unlikely to be able to break the spell. They imagine that their only true friends are premies and that the only real love they will find in this world is through Maharaji, hence their need to stay where they are. Speaking personally here, the scales began to fall from my eyes when I began making friends with adults in the adult world, who didn't need to imagine that a person they had never met really loved them. They seemed to be leading lives full of humour, intelligence and creativity and they weren't afraid to question and explore. They might not have had grandiose ideas that they had a direct link to the truth, but their lives seemed to reflect something far deeper and more substantial than I was seeing in premies by then. Understandably, I began to prefer their company. Premies grappling with the idea of maybe leaving shouldn't be afraid. The world doesn't fall apart; you don't feel abandoned. The thing you feel is going to abandon you is imaginary anyway. We don't really know what we're here for, but we can go on surmising if we really want to - no one can stop us. And if you love meditation, well, you can still do that too! And if you had great experiences in meditation, well, guess what? They won't be any different, I guarantee you. The alternative is to stay in a shrinking world that lets less and less of the real world in because it cannot afford to. The disbelief you had to suspend when you were waiting for Knowledge is the same disbelief you need now, to recover and develop the sense of who you really are. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Addendum - fabulous (nt) From: Gail To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:40:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Wonderful! Great letter to pemies for EPO!nt From: Jim S. To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 10:32:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: WOW [nt] From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:07:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Very insightful post there, Livia From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:59:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And let's hear it for those premies who are slowly realising that the cheese of 'Knowledge' (now cunningly re-marketed as 'self-knowledge') leads directly to the mousetrap of - as you put it so well: 'a shrinking world that lets less and less of the real world in because it cannot afford to'. Does Maharaji still tout the mantra: 'Belief is relief'? Shouldn't that be 'No brain - no pain'? And this insight of yours needs a prominent placing on EPO, IMO: 'The disbelief you had to suspend when you were waiting for Knowledge is the same disbelief you need now, to recover and develop the sense of who you really are' amen to that!

Subject: Brava, Livia - **Best Of** From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:43:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a wonderful essay on the PWK to Ex conundrum. You have really said it so well and compassionately. Your post communicates much care for our fellow human beings who are still doing the Gu-Gu Ga-Ga. I know your words will be of help to many who are afraid to let go of the rotten branch they've clung to for so long. BTW: Did you and AV know each other before posting on the forum? You two carry on very deep and meaningful conversations that I always enjoy reading. It's as if you've done that for years. It's good to see you and other relatively recent arrivals bring fresh ideas to keep the forum interesting. Richard

Subject: Re: Brava, Livia - **Best Of** From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 20:19:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard and thanks for your kind words. I always love reading your posts too and always like it when you're here - in fact, I think this forum has been a fantastic read lately - a heartfelt thanks to everyone. XXXX Mwah!!! No, AV and I haven't met and I agree, we do have great conversations -sometimes we seem to be working through very much the same stuff. AV, if you're there and you live in England (do you?) it'd be great to meet up sometime and chew all this over in person - with maybe Opie (oops - Thorin!) and others. What do you say?! Love again, Livia

Subject: Class of 2002 From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 21:49:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You, AV, Thorin and a host of others make up the EPO Class of 2002 because all of you started posting around the same time. Or maybe you began late last year, whatever. I have a lot of affection and affinity for the Class of 2001 that I started posting with. Pat C, Chuck, Brian, Marianne, Francesca, Cynthia and myself, among others, all started posting around the same time. Like you, I look forward to seeing these people in person one day soon. Hey, I've almost forgotten about the 30th Millenium Reunion in the Astrodome. This time we'd probably be able to do a better job of filling it with former followers in contrast to the cospicuous no-shows in '72. Hotels this time so no one has to sleep on the floor of the Peace Plant. It would be soooo cool to have Rennie Davis give the keynote address. Richard, dreaming

Subject: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ivory Rock Conference Center is supposedly available to be rented for conferences by non-cult folks. Perhaps we should reserve it for a weekend so we can have an international Latvian bash. But it sounds like Anth, Nige, Moley et al need to organize another UK Latvian night for all the new pommies to meet each other. Meanwhile closer to home we could always have a Left Coast bash in San Francisco or maybe Portland since that's halfway between the Pacific Northwest contingent and the SF bunch. We can invite the poms if they promise not to drink us under the table.

Subject: Next Latvian event: SF, August From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:08:28 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Since the next Latvian Night is being discussed, it appears a poster from across the pond -- whose identity will remain anonymous til the plans are certain --- will be visiting San Francisco in August. Looks like that will be the next get-together on the west coast. Interested attendees should email me. Marianne

Subject: Re: Next Latvian event: SF, August From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 14:18:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and I will all be there. ;) Richard

Subject: promise not to drink us under the table. From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: FAT CHANCE!!!!!!! :~)

Subject: Re: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 07:34:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC We can invite the poms if they promise not to drink us under the table An acknowledment at last from a yank (or are you Suid Afrikanse?). Every time I go over to the States I always wondered why the natives there seem to sip their booze so slowly and then want to go home so early. Weak livers eh? Love. Thorin

Subject: Re: Can we rent Amaroo for a Latvian do? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:28:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the Californian teetotal thing. They're all super concerned about their health. (I think it's different in New York.) Apparently people in LA someimes get told off for smoking out of doors!!! Didn't know they thought of us as heavy drinkers though! (But I suppose a lot of us are.) Love, Liv

Subject: Yanks are puritans From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 13:11:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer Saunders (of ''Absolutely Fabulous'') was asked if she would like to live in Hollywood. She answered: ''No thanks, the people are nuts. They all belong to AA, don't drink, don't smoke so they can live forever but they live on an earthquake fault-line where they could be killed any minute.''

Subject: You know Livia, From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:18:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read all your posts when I can, when I have time. I have come to a conclusion. You really are an awesome woman. Love, Tonette

Subject: to Tonette From: Thorin To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:35:09 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Tonette Ya gotta believe it - Livia is really an awesome woman - whoever she is. To think that we live in such a topsy-turvey world where premies can call her a 'barren old hag' and say that she is lucky that M has not 'pulled the plug' on her is truly unbelievable. I am sure that Livia (and you to Tonnete) have brought much clarity and wisdom to fence-sitting premies. In fact several people who read F7 but do not post have said to me how much they enjoy reading Livia. Long live the power of love and clarity. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Tonette From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:03:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You lot are sweet, you really are. I can't tell you how much I've appreciated you all these last months. I would love to meet you all, I really would. Through this forum I have been able to slowly unravel a 30-year mindset....and it's not over yet. We need to have a big, big party one day! Lots and lots and lots of love to all of you great people Liv XXXXX

Subject: Time for another love-fest From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 04:42:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last year in May, the class of 2001, had a love fest. Jim was even infected and made friends with several premies like Andrea Erikson or was that Erika Andersen? Postie ''came out'' as Richard and we all began to post our pics. Part of this had to do with a little campaign that I ran to get people to post under their real names which is what distiguishes us from the paranoid anonymous premie trolls. Unfortunately it backfired and our pictures were published along with some hideous lies on CAC. As a result I no longer encourage people to be as open about themselves as I am BUT I still think it was worth it as the cult is not to be feared. It really is a silly little outfit not worth worrying about. They can't do much harm. The world of premies and exes is very small and insignificant to the rest of humanity.

Subject: You know Livia, From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:15:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No more than a club From: Sir Dave To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:33:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and now I can see why I never liked those Maha events. I did not fit into the club. So why is it marketed as more than a club? Why is it sold as The Truth? It really is just a social club for people who worship Maharaji Prem Rawat as the Living Lord. It has got nothing to do with meditation and that's just the pretence to get new people to join. So when people do join they will eventually realise they've been deceived. Or maybe they will also believe Mr Rawat is God and stay in the club. The trouble is, Maharaji Prem Rawat rules the lives of the members. Personally, I think it pathetic that people's lives are centred around Amaroo once or twice a year and seeing Maharaji. But then I never could make myself a fan, even though I tried, many times. The Prem Rawat fan club. That's all it's come to. Definitely not something that people are going to want to join and no saving the child from crawling into the fire or declaring to establish peace in the world? No way. The whole thing has become, dare I say it, so pedestrian now. If you don't like Rawat, his stage act and his hypocritical philosophy, you won't become a member. Nothing to do with truth or knowledge. Nothing to do with universal love...

Subject: Re: A thoroughly modern PWK in Amaroo From: Bryn To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:17:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pat, What a good exchange. You are spot-on right (imo) when you say small is how it should always have been, and DR is obviously charmed and inspired by his relationship with M (P?). Love and peace to all. It is striking how DR feels free to comment on those who have removed themselves from his beloved, in terms of 'dog shit'. I can get it though. I saw some premies the other day and immediately went in to 'observe' mode.It wasn't long before detatchment had turned into antipathy. I soon realised that I had developed a fullblown religious hatred for these two innocent folk, based around my feelings of how spiritually deluded they were! I don't see many pwsks and these two I spotted in a restaurant. As you say, Exs, well me at least, simply no longer belong with a guru, but I think exs and pwsks still share in common a ferocious desire to define themselves as being part of some elite group of 'knowers'. I'll admit to it, it has been a major theme of my life to date. Nice post. Thanks, Love Bryn

Subject: Newbies From: Doubt To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:34:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think they know much at all about 'doubt and fear'. Why should they when they've been brought up by people who don't either?!! They have been told over and over and over.....have no doubt. They were brought up by people who were told over and over and over....have no doubt. I was told over and over and over......have no doubt. I researched my doubt and discovered EPO and this Forum and after 2 years of listening to premies and rawat say.....have no doubt....over and over and over.......I walked away. I am glad for the ones who stay and have no doubt in their minds, no doubt that rawat is the one true master of our time, the perfect master (which is what he called himself when I attended his events and videos). I recently read his interview in Leaders magazine and he has personally answered my doubts. Thank you Mr. Rawat, Maharaj ji, Perfect Master, Meditation teacher of self knowledge, or whatever your title is this week, thank you for your sincere candor and coming out (as it were) from hiding from the 'press'. Can I look forward to hearing more from you soon in a more popular press article? I doubt it.

Subject: No Doubt About It! From: Gail To: Doubt Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 17:20:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are lucky to have doubts. We don't believe all the advertising we hear about a car (and that junk is gov't regulated) so why wouldn't we have doubts about the guy who claims to be THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE (kind of tough to prove false advertising here). Congratulations on maintaining control over the rest of your life. If you are curious about the Four Hindu Techniques Prem Rawat has stolen and packaged as his own SELF-KNOWLEDGE, check them out on EPO--much ado about nuthin' really!

Subject: Welcome, Doubt. I welcome doubt! :) From: PatC To: Doubt Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:22:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Leaders article really showed Rev Rawat's true colors. I'm glad I'm out of it and that you are too. Welcome.

Subject: They always have, and they always will From: JHB To: PatC re-posting DR's report from Amaroo Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:32:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So said Prem Rawat to David Roupell at Amaroo. Well, he's right - there have always been people who saw through his con, and those who were conned will ensure that the truth about him is available to prevent others being conned. Of course premies will interpret this as meaning that the Perfect Master has always had his critics, every time he has come. But this demonstrates one thing, in that it is clear how inward looking the cult is. Maharaji once said that we were all standing in a circle looking in, but one day he will ask us all to turn around and face the outside. Not sure what he meant but I assumed he was talking about some big propagation push in the future. Well now it's become a private club with a strict membership process, and is even more inward looking. I believe that many at Amaroo had a beautiful experience, but I also believe that many were there out of fear, and would prefer to be out once they know there's a real choice that doesn't involve damnation. Also, the cult is now totally hedonistic. The fact that everyone there had a good time is justification, in the minds of devotees like DR, that the cult is a good thing. John.

Subject: Re: They always have, and they always will From: The Other Neville To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:31:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes: hedonism. Another interesting take on what has been going on at Amaroo. The non-Australian, non-heroic, non-placard carrying, stay-at-home Neville

Subject: Catch the part about having a few drinks first? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:34:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it Roupell or Cat who talked about having a few drinks before settling in for some of Maharaji's satsang. I know I must sound like an old purist or something but, well, can you imagine walking around Amaroo with a big, fat copy of Hans Yog Prakash lecturing drinking premies like an ultra-orthodox jew in Tel Aviv? But what? Are they going to start having cocktail waitresses serve drinks at programs now? Maybe young Miss Roupell can get a job there. What colour's her hair?

Subject: Hey Mr Twister! From: Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:05:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a few drinks at the end of a long day. You dont approve? Yeah sure...

Subject: Apologies on that one From: Jim To: Cat Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 23:33:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I looked again and see that I was wrong. I thought I'd read something about having a beer or so before Phlegm came on the stage but I guess I was wrong. It was after. My sincere apologies. :)

Subject: Jim, now that's funny! From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:36:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I pray for reincarnation, so I may be reborn with your brains and wit and my good looks. I roaring here. Phlegm. Poor Cat! That one's tough to beat. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Subject: Groan... From: Cat To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To me it's just more dribble from a very unfunny man. It's actually quite juvenile Gail. Yeah the guy is Quick as a whip....not;)

Subject: The ''spirit'' of Amaroo came out of bottles [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 16:39:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Moley To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 19:11:56 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: O.K. confession time you lot... Just curious as to what we all did whilst under the blanket, grappling with our beragons (who invented them anyway?). I'll go first: 1: In most sincere mode, genuine attempts to transcend 'mind'. These consisted of sincere finger-poking exercises (in my eyes, honest). 2: Almost sincere efforts, i.e. writing 'poetry', 'divinely inspired' - no. don't ask. 3: Not very sincere efforts at all, mostly involving writing shopping lists/planning dusting and hoovering. 4: Not sincere at all, involving very unspiritual fantasies about other premies (always came to no good if propped up in bed at the time).

Subject: I got bored shitless [nt] From: The Other Neville To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 18:39:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: True story From: Richard To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the early 70's, a premie friend was meditating on the roof of 1263 Josephine Street in Denver. It was summer and he was using a sheet over him. He described how he was really getting into 'word' when his whole conciousness was flooded with light. This lasted for a few minutes and then he heard a voice calling to him. 'Hey you down there, are you OK?' He pulled off the sheet and there above him was a police helicopter with spot light on him. They apparently thought he was a body wrapped in a sheet. LOL!!! BTW: the blanket/sheet thing was so the uninitated wouldn't see the secret techniques. I was reprimanded by WPC at Montrose because I was flagrantly practicing out in the open while uncovered.

Subject: Re: True story From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 19:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I once knew a premie who was meditating in LA one day when he started to have the most extraordinary experience. Everything was vibrating and he was filled with the most extraordinary sensations of his life....... Then he heard shouting and the pounding of feet. He lifted his blanket and saw scenes of utter panic all around him. 'Holy shit!!!' he exclaimed as he realised what was happening. 'It's a ****ing earthquake!!!' Love, Livia

Subject: Seriously? Okay but it's a little blunt. From: Tonette To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:13:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it was in the morning I usually went back to sleep. I've never been a morning person. Funny how my Knowledge of God was not able to transcend easily my nature. If it was at night, I patiently waited under my blanket for my devout husband to finish so I could seduce him. No, it didn't always work, usually he was too 'tired' from meditating! Did anyone ever wonder about the blanket scene? Now, was the blanket used so non-premies would not see the techniques or was the blanket devised so premies could jolly well do whatever they wanted to while under it? Lots of day dreaming, some sleep, numb arms, patterns from my eyes, crickets when I plugged my ears, sore tongue, that's what I remember. Meditation, one of the things I never got the hang of although I did try. Some here swear by the experience. I have never seen the value in it frankly. I remember very well when M altered the light technique. Hubby came home from knowledge review and informed me, since I did have knowledge after all, good news, Tonette, you don't press your eyeballs anymore and proceded to show me the revisions in all the techinques. I thought well thank god for that, you won't be risking a retinal detachment any longer by squishing all the aquaeous humor out of your eye. Praise the lord! I tried knowledge 'lite' version, the revision. Still didn't work for me. It was 100% boring! Another fun post that cuaght my eye. Take care Moley and happy nuptials! Love, Tonette

Subject: Re: Seriously? Okay but it's a little blunt. From: Moley To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 19:19:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it was at night, I patiently waited under my blanket for my devout husband to finish so I could seduce him. No, it didn't always work, usually he was too 'tired' from meditating! Oh YES!!! I remember that space so well - as an aspirant, waiting for my premie boyfriend to finish meditating!!! Yep - and the whole hiding under the blanket scene... total paranoia that anyone would see you doing the techniques!. And crickets - heard them (!) at fog-bound Lingfield UK. And that whole you-no-longer-have to-press-yer-eyeballs crap! You take care too and yes am having happy nuptuals ****xx Moley

Subject: re: the end of eye gouging From: John G To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:11:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, The fat boy made us all promise not to tell anyone about the change in the light technique and it is true you are not a morning person

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:18:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Moley, I think dusting and hoovering are both universal divine experiences. I too contemplated these activities along with composing shopping lists and poetry which were of a similar quality to each other. More recently my meditation has been on planting schemes for the garden. These are extremely blissfull and I am thinking of starting a religion based on the concept of the inner gardener. Anyone wishing to find the gardener within can join for a small fee and see me from a great distance . I promise to blame the weather and a lack of faith for any experience falling short of absolute bliss. Jai and compost, Love Bolly

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: janet To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shut out the world and went far, far away. except to get riled and indignant if someone else in the room or out in the street made annoying noise. then I wasted time being pissed at them until I could gather up my wits and get back on the stick . literally. got in the habit of not being able to go to sleep unless it was from the blanket first. still sometimes do it to this day out of sheer conditioningL when I find I can't settle down and go to sleep, or when I wake up but can't get the body to move yet, I haul myself upright to sitting half lotus, pull my shawls [I still have them after 23 years, I sleep with them] over my head like the virgin mary[it makes me feel holy] and sit there like a lump with my eyeupturned and closed until I geel coalesced enough to either get up and make it down the hall to the bathroom, or I fade far away for god knows how long, and later if I rouse just enough to realiZe I've been sitting like that for a long time, I can lie down again and sleep for real without my mind terrorizing me like it sometimes does in the twilight between lying down and actually going to sleep. this last has been a serious phobia at times. I developed a new ptoblem in 1981 after being forced to take Navane, an antipsychotic, when my father trapped me in a mental hospital for 9 months. I had never had a fear of heights before the stay. the Navane induced a bizarre compulsion in me when I stood near windows on high floors, that made me feel overwhelmingly like I desired to shatter the glass and jump out. I had to stay away from windows and keept o the inner rooms to head off any possibility of acting out this strange new urge. I only had to take the stuff for 3 weeks before they dropped it, but the fear permanently became part of my subconscious and conscious. Ever since then, in the twilight wile sinking into sleep, I get these terrifying flashes outta nowhere of myself falling out of the sky from airplanes or skyscrapers or cliffs, and I can't shut them out. They utterly destroy my peace. The only thing I know to do to wipe them out is to sit up and pull my shawls over me and 'go away' as described above. I was taking zoloft for 2 years for anxiety attacks, and it didn't stop these invasive bursts that came at me when I was least in a state to get out of them. never ever did anything under the blanket but meditate, fume, or pass out and go away. PS--my cats love the shawls. they knead and tread them when they crave comforting. they all fight with each other, but every one of them thinks the shawls are theirs alone. I bought them in the Krishna temple gift shop in Miami when my son was an infant, intending to use them as slings to carry him in. That idea never quite worked out, but they became my meditation shawls, bed jackets , and all purpose security rags instead.

Subject: shaking rythmically? From: Moley did you see my blanket To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 23:25:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At least I think that is what you are hinting at!

Subject: Re: So what did you do under that blanket? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:08:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tried to meditate, and on the rare occasion actually had an 'experience.' But most often I drifted a bit or fell asleep. I did my share of list writing, too.

Subject: Oh! And it wasn't a blanket From: Mickey the P To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:12:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a cheap Indian print bedspread from Pier One Imports in San Jose, California. I did have a fine berrogan, with padded armrest and the table leg unscrewed from the armrest for easy packing. I have no idea what ever happened to that thing; probably went the way of the many framed photos cut out of 'And It Is Divine.'

Subject: Re: Oh! And it wasn't a blanket From: bill To: Mickey the P Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 21:45:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried once to use a sheet, about 3 minutes into it I didnt like the air quality. That was it for a cover. Too bad I wasnt quick with discarding the bad air out of rawats mouth.

Subject: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Moley To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:44:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All those sheets, blankets, throws, shawls etc.... maybe we were all just oxygen-deprived. Explains a lot. Gawd knows how we had enough air to make that blanket shake rhythmically :)

Subject: Re: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:50:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That blanket shaking happens a lot if more than one of us is gathered in his name under the covers.

Subject: Re: Bad air quality - no kidding From: Moley To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:57:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1+1=11... isn't that what he said?... the mind boggles!!! :) :)

Subject: Will the real god please sit down… From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 17:08:38 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Lower down we were talking about how M (sorry, ‘Prem’) could make next year’s Amaroo even better than this year’s ‘best ever’ event. And I was thinking about one of the UK’s most popular and irritating TV programmes called Stars in their Eyes’. The format is simple: a parade of wannabe pop-stars each get five minutes to emulate some established act – the winner supposedly being the best lookalike/soundalike. It has to be said, however, that in many cases the performances are at least as good as those of the heroes they impersonate (the only true indicator of quality being those cases where the original artist had a measure of creative talent or originality which sets them above being mere talented stage performers in the first place). And was also thinking of this UK TV pop quiz (Never Mind the Buzzcocks) where the best round is the one where some faded has-been from a decade or two ago – maybe the guy from Mungo Jerry or Kajagoogoo – lines up in an identity parade to see whether the contestants can pick them out from these similar-looking nobodies. Potentially very humiliating for the stars involved, but it certainly makes you like them more for their willingness to confront the possible ignominy of no longer being recognisable as stars.. And I also remember changing flights in Singapore a while back and seeing Maharaji, right there in the departure lounge. Seriously, this guy was truly M’s double: the facial features, the figure, skin-hue, gut, designer suit… everything. I naturally did a double-take before realising the ‘real’ M would never subject himself to mingling with ordinary business class travellers who don’t even own their own planes, let alone fly them. (But if this guy were to turn up at Amaroo and wander about, he could have an absolute ball with premies fawning and grovelling right, left and centre.) That was my first time in Asia and I quickly realised how Prem’s kind of physical features in that part of the world are fairly commonplace, and having spotted this first lookalike, soon started noticing them all around me – not exact matches like this first guy was, but pretty close. (I am perfectly aware that Asians or blacks see white westerners as tending to look alike, more so than we do – just a familiarity thing) I know I have proposed a similar experiment before (can you tell real M from Fake M?) - but more in the sense of can you tell a Master’s bullshit from a non-Master’s? But anyway, wouldn’t it be interesting – nay, hysterically funny - if Prem teamed up and vied with five or so dead ringers and they did a joint Amaroo stage act? It could be part entertainment and part science .. think about it: The thing is, unlike with Stars in Their Eyes, Prem has no conspicuous creative genius that would distinguish him from his imitators. Can you imagine the poetry round? The bajan singing event? The funniest / most humiliating gags at the pewks’ expense..? The climax, of course, would be where they all come together, don Krishna-garb and snake around the stage in a Madness-style, wobbly conga line… And picture the multiple darshan scenario: six luxury air-conditioned armchairs randomly ordered in a blue tunnel, their incumbents wearing sacks on their heads for added anonymity, identical tooters luxuriating on identical cushions… ‘So tell us premies - which of these heavenly hooves belong to the THE LOTUS WITH THE MOSTEST!!? Whose toes ooze the kosher juju juice? Then picture the elimination round as the rejects leave the stage, one by one, ushered off to a chorus of ribald jeers… If I were a practising premie I would honestly love this sort of thing. Who wouldn’t? Aside from the fun factor, there would be the sheer joy of affirmation in being able to witness the authenticity of the divine shining like a precious jewel among dull pebbles; to feel the uniquely cosmic presence of the REAL incarnation of God amongst the upstart nobodies. To be able to prove to myself, once and for all, that the ‘presence’ of the Master goes way beyond any conditioned biofeedback process or projection on my part. Or would I..? The truth is, I honestly believe if anyone were to look the part, walk the walk, talk the talk, learn to ad lib and ramble in that characteristically unstructured way, run the odd Self-Knowledge session, they could easily master being a Master, and in so doing capture the sum total what Maharaji is - ie, a a stage act and nothing more. Admittedly a stage act which, by now, is well-honed (how could it not be?) and guaranteed to press certain emotional triggers within the audience; but a stage act nonetheless - learnable skills. There would be no special mystery ingredient to distinguish the real from the imitation (or I challenge any premie to explain what that ingredient might be). One day Prem will die (not a threat – just a fact of life) and, inevitably, someone will step into the lotus boots and learn the part. I imagine at that moment the average pwk will experience the greatest inner turmoil of their devoteeship: persuading themselves that such a mystery ingredient had indeed been passed on in some miraculous ‘transfer of knowledge’, to use Prem’s phrase from this week’s Amaroo. Fact: Charlie Chaplin once secretly entered a Chaplin lookalike contest and came third! But at least Chaplin - actor, scriptwriter, singer, composer, all-round creative genius - was way more than a mere performer. Closer scrutiny of the contestants in questions would have rapidly established him as such. More to the point, even without those added qualities, he was ultimately just an entertainer with no pretence to being anything more than that. Unfortunately premies have no yardstick for evaluating the scope of their own favourite entertainer’s messianic delusions. And they risk – at their peril - sharing those delusions by imagining Amaroo to be anything more profound than a (very expensive) stage show.

Subject: If belief is relief ... From: cq To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:10:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If belief is relief ... (as apparently the Maha says, though in my day belief was seen as a cop-out: the 'knowledge'/experience of 'God' being preferential to any belief-system) ... but, of course, it isn't 'Knowledge of God' any more, it's just another belief system. Which, for your average premie simply means: 'No brain - no pain'

Subject: Great post, Nige From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:36:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent, really. And John's point was interesting too. That Charlie Chaplin thing's amazing, by the way.

Subject: a far better ruse: From: janet To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:57:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good raw concept. But for better PsyOps impact, i think it would have even more impact, if rather than try to invite him to be a willing participant, wouldn't it be even better to start quietly searching in asia, auditioning for 'dead ringer' doubles of him? take out ads all over asia with pictures of Mj and the caption ' Do you look like this guy? Do your friends think you could be him? We need you' and then explain to the candidates who answer, that this is to be both a practical joke, and a serious challenge to the cultists beleifs? train the winners to impersonate him to the maximum degree-- with videos to capture his mannerisms, his speaking voice, etc--and then one by one, quietly set them loose to walk Amaroo at festival time, all over, go anywhere they like, act the part, and create absolute havoc for security, the guests and the Man Hisself? Doppelgangers everywhere. He would literally see himself coming and going. Imagine the rumors. The conflicting reports. The confusion. Especially if when Prem was actually out there himself and saw one of the doubles getting the mobbing and sycophancy treatment, and no one noticed him yet. And then when they did, the confusion and hesitation. This could be soooooooooo good.....what a bomb to drop, to prove the point.

Subject: Still laughing... From: Nigel To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 19:05:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doppelgangers everywhere. He would literally see himself coming and going. Imagine the rumors. The conflicting reports. The confusion. Especially if when Prem was actually out there himself and saw one of the doubles getting the mobbing and sycophancy treatment, and no one noticed him yet. And then when they did, the confusion and hesitation. Brilliant ::-)

Subject: Sounds like 'Being John Malkovitch'! (nt) From: cq To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 14:51:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like 'Being John Malkovitch'! (nt)

Subject: Oh yeah! That's FAR BETTER!! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:17:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a genius, Janet! :)

Subject: Re: Will the real god please sit down? From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:07:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good one, Nigel. When stripped of the stage aura, could M still draw the adoration of the faithful or would they they reject him as a fake and worship the postal clerk from Patna or mechanic from Beijing? If you see the Master on the road, would you know it was him or would you have to be told? I know for myself that, in the beg-ning, the extreme focus on one young boy from India certainly made him more believeable. When I mentioned GMJ's golden, glowing skin to my world-wise Brit grandma her reply was 'In the East, there's lot's of people with skin like that.' Sure, grandma but he's the SatGuru! She knew the truth.

Subject: Stage Presence From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 17:28:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great Post, Nigel. Of course he would never subject himself to this, but your post reminded me of something I've noticed about stars that survive. It seems to me that they get better at being stars. I've noticed this about singers and comedians that I didn't particularly like. After 20 or so years, they seem to shine on stage, with a confidence that I guess comes from knowing what they are doing. Even though the content of their entertainment product is still not to my taste, I grow to admire their style. I don't quite know what this has to do with Rawat who I am sure I'll never see again (unless it's in court), but I'm sure it fits in somewhere. John.

Subject: My Momma Knew Better, too! From: Gail To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:55:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I went to see the Lord in NYC in 1974 for his birthday (although Prem never showed up) along with Terry, Anne, Gwen, and Simon. I'd been going to cult meetings for about four months at this point. Due to carbon monoxide poisoning, and the non-stop drill of my premie friends, I proudly announced that Guru Maharaj Ji was the 'Lord' to my mother. Needless to say, she was mortified. The worst of it was that she sent me there due to a cablecast program she'd seen about the four techniques. She thought it sounded interesting. Little did she know that insteading of gaining some wisdom she would be losing half her daughter (begruding duty to visit my mother after that). From that point on, until the day she died, she begged me to leave the cult. If only I could tell her I had!

Subject: Sneering contempt of Maharaji. From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: I briefly dipped into an Elan Communications broadcast the other night and realised why so many PWKs adapt such a high handed and contemptuous attitude to non-premies and in particular ex-premies. This stems directly from their (and previously our) conditioning that Maharaji placed on us through his warped and very frightening view of the world. Maharaji was speaking about how dead people just prior to their burial were prepared in such a way to be presentable to relatives and friends. In his usual jocular manner he described in detail the methods of how this was done and concluded that that this was an absolute waste of time seeing that the person was dead and had no further use blah de blah. Presumably he was saying all this to make the apparent grander point that there was something more precious in life than looking after the dead and that people ought to focus on these higher things (presumably gratitude to him). This was all said in his usual sneering and contemptuous manner using pregnant pauses to make his point. I think we all know how he does this. As usual Maharaji received the typical applause from the audience thanking him for his great clarity and profundity - although I must say the applause was slightly muted on this occasion. For me this is a typical, but perhaps extreme example, of the utter contempt and hatred he has for so many things that we hold precious. In this example the fact that we pay respects to the dead is to acknowledge the beauty and compassion that that person has brought too many and to honour their memory. Also to assist us in the loss we suffer - a loss that is genuine and by undertaking this grieving process (with all the symbols that Maharaji sneers at) we are able to overcome that loss and to grow into fuller human beings. All Maharaji was able to display was disrespect and shallowness. No love, no compassion, no understanding - just sneers. Truly shocking. Now I am sure we can all come up with many other examples of how much Maharaji detests this world, its various cultures and endeavours but one thing is clear that this does and that is it conditions his followers to adapt a similar sneering, contemptuous and frightening worldview. A worldview that only allows for inclusion of his belief system and excludes all else. A sad state of affairs. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Sneering contempt of Maharaji. From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:26:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sneering and contemptuous - you are spot on. Add arrogant to the list ('we are the only ones to possess self-knowledge') and premies end up even more unpalatable than born-again Christians. I spent some time with a premie not long ago who was talking about an aspect of a primitive culture he visited recently. He spoke contemptuously of this particular traditional custom, and it was glaringly obvious that his view stemmed from his premie mindset. In other words, he said exactly what he thought Maharaji would have said. It showed such an arrogance and an ignorance of history that some of the other people in the room (not premies) were left somewhat stunned. How strange that the thing that was supposed to have set us free has ended up trapping people into an extremely damaging mindset. Love to all, Livia

Subject: re: damaging mindset. From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:39:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently invited a life long dear friend and pwk to look at a creative project with a 'devotional/religious' theme; 'as long as it does't involve any of that god crap', was, in part, the response. ((((((((((!)))))))))))

Subject: A glaring example of what he's really like From: Tonette To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:17:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just take a gander at how he treated his own mother. Shunned her for years, she never knew her grandchildren by him, probably didn't even make any sort of ammends even after she was old and sick. Ah but it's all about the heart and knowing ain't it? Yeah right. He really is the worst sort of person. I'm not talking arrested developement nor selfishness, the core of M's heart is full of hate. How can he dwell so continually on how awful this world is and human beings in general unless that is how HE thinks and acts. You hit the nail on the head with your post Thorin. Well said indeed. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: well put (nt) From: Susan To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 23:22:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Great post Thorin. Yes, utter contempt From: Moley To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:44:28 (EDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: for human emotions.... I can't count the number of times god-in-a-bod poured utter scorn on our 'ordinary' human feelings. What utter shit. I remember (Hans Jayanti Rome '77) a premie couple whose baby had just died. They were smiling for Chrissake - and who can blame them - rationalising like crazy that all was fine and dandy cos the 'Lord' was on the planet. Ironic, really, what a lot of rationalising premies have to do to 'get out of their minds'. Love Moley

Subject: Re: Great post Thorin. Yes, utter contempt From: Bolly Shri To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:29:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well put Thorin. Moley thats's not just sad it's sick.

Subject: relationships From: silvia To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 15:04:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many times maharaji has talked BAD about human relationships? I remember many in the 26 years i was in the cult. Always saying that the oNLY relationship worth of having is with him!!! maharaji, you know what I feel for you: ROT IN HELL, IF THERE IS ONE, FOR ETERNITY, BASTARD!!! hi thori

Subject: Very true From: Sir Dave To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:17:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and one of the main reasons why I found it increasingly impossible to follow Maharaji until my final exit in 1983 was because of his contempt for all things that ordinary people hold dear. He really is a most horrible man and I could not bare to listen to any more of his contemptuous drivel beyond '83. It is beyond my comprehension how people these days actually enjoy listening to him and following his every word. But as they say in Yorkshire; "There's nowt so queer as folk."

Subject: Re: Very true From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:05:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Dave, it's so good to read this stuff. It's exactly what I was feeling at that time. I used to try and discuss it with premies and they would usually say it was all in my head. They's say you can do whatever you want in your life as long as you practise Knowledge. But I would say 'but why does Maharaji have to rubbish everything else if that's the case?' And as your Master, you would just wish he would acknowledge the value of different aspects of the world, like literature, art, music, you name it. But he never would. It was all secondary, and explicitly (or implicitly) rubbished. I think this attitude of his has been very confusing for premies, because if they find themselves engaging with the world with any enthusiasm, they are left either with confusion or with a sense of guilt. But the world of Maharaji is too narrow and life-denying to have enough to offer, so the premies are caught between a rock and a hard place. Love, Livia

Subject: LIV re:, like literature, art, music, y From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:18:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe apart from the odd book (Milky)and the endless New Age Elevator Music, there ain't been much manifestation of THAT GRATITUDE thru' the arts....I wonder why, no I really do, I'm genuinely stumped on that one.....

Subject: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Loaf To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:29:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he talks with utter confidence. He appears confident and happy in the face of lifes great mysteries He offers not an answer to the big questions, but a way to avoid them, which removes the need for an answer. He talks of a knowable proof and about trusting yourself. He appears to be life affirming. It feels good to be 'open' to his company because he is funny, successful and seems happy. He talks about an answer to a lot of niggling doubts and problems He knows how to expertly 'play' an audience. He is also skilled at alarm-bell avoidance.. like a cat-burgler he can charm and carefully avoid triggering off alarms by NEVER addressing particular issue, but Always addressing the context. (This is a blind spot which we have... we are unused to having our CONTEXT addressed... we tend to deal with life as a series of events, but he places these events in a context to which we have NO comparison. This wrong foots us.. and becomes a self-serving prophesy.. the more we accept his context (Cos we never had one of our own, not conciously) the more events will prove him right. This seems to me to be a good point. (Although I say so myself).

Subject: Re: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Dep =) To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 11:42:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay Loaf, How do you explain this. There was a guy who came around to the small community I was in who seemed really lost and out of it. He was poorly dressed, grubby, paranoid, hunched over, shifty-eyed, and I heard through the grapevine that he was on welfare and receiving counselling for something or other. He watched videos for well over a year and I could see gradual, positive changes in him. He became more relaxed, friendlier, cleaner, more confident and moved a little faster. Then one day I saw him and had to look twice to see if it was the same guy. He had received Knowledge and he now looked entirely different. His was much better dressed in a sort of hippie/preppie style, his posture had changed and he had a twinkle in his eye. It was amazing. The scientist in me had seen it happen. It wasn’t a matter of my opinion, it was objective observation. I had seen this guy change, and to my mind his transformation was nothing short of miraculous. How do you explain or devalue this? That’s why I can’t find myself hating PR or ridiculing K because I’ve seen it work! Okay, time to rip the old Dog.

Subject: Re: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:44:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to know a woman who was a complete wreck until she discovered Jesus and gave him her heart. She then became this radiant being, overflowing with love and strength. She would hold forth at meetings about her miraculous conversion and convinced many that she was a 'woman of God'. Does that mean Christianity's the truth then? Livia

Subject: Re: I'll tell you why people listen now.. From: Dep =) To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 30, 2002 at 19:34:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to know a woman who was a complete wreck until she discovered Jesus and gave him her heart. She then became this radiant being, overflowing with love and strength. She would hold forth at meetings about her miraculous conversion and convinced many that she was a 'woman of God'. Does that mean Christianity's the truth then? Livia --- Hi Livia, I'm going to make this 'real' easy for you. Whatever turns you on, okay? As long as you don't hurt others. Maybe this woman is having a geniune experience, who am I to judge? And no, Christianity is not the truth. That woman's experience is the truth. And IMO Jesus did not come to start a new religion, he came to re-introduce the old one, the religion of Spirit. Then people started to parrot his sayings, and pretty soon you had dogma and 'Onward Christian Soldiers' and the Inquisition and the kind of insanity you now have in the Mid-East. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, There is a difference between the concept of and the experience of!!!! But maybe most people aren't bright enough to get that. Too bad.

Subject: Superficial and gullible beyond words From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:54:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're constantly amazing me with your lack of insight, Dog. Constantly. Do you actually think that any church group in town couldn't claim the same 'success stories'?

Subject: Re: Superficial and gullible beyond words From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 01:14:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you are a sick man.

Subject: I'm NOT a knocker !!! From: Loaf To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:49:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would never devalue something like that. BUT explaining is NOT devaluing !!! A fundamental thing which Maharaji taught me.. 'the ordinary IS miraculous' which I now see the truth of : If the ordinary is Miraculous then the miraculous = ordinary = miraculous ! So understanding or examining the psychological and social foundations of GRACE is NOT to devalue it... but to allow my MIND to be filled with light. I thought you'd understand. Let us consider now your redeemed friend : There are good influences in a persons life which are not entirely magical... having an interest in life, in FEELINGS, having Maharaji as a supportive and inspiring teacher... meditation... all these things can mean a LOT to someone. They did (and still do) to me ! I am not making a direct comparison, but ANY faith can move mountains. Troubled and depressed people also get religion and they and their fellow Christians applaud their transformation as proof of the power of Jesus. Is it Jesus ? Or perhaps something they have done between them. A crutch is all well and good... but there comes a time when continuing to use it will actually do you harm. Its OK for me to move on. I do NOT hate or knock Maharaji, he is a partof my life... but also the process of analysis and examination which I undergo now is exceptionally healthy for me. No 'mind' problems.. no doubt... no barriers, just the flow and patterns of life and information, and the steering of an inner 'sense' which responds, reacts and adapts to inspiration from my fellow explorers. I have no vested interest in any club... I wish Maharaji all the best, and am in NO way against him.. i am simply sharing my perspective as freely as is my right and priviledge. I benefit enormously from many peoples perspectives in my life.. maharaji's as well as the exes... and I feel free to take courage, hope, inspiration and meaning wherever my heart and mind find it. I wonder why you think me a knocker ? was I not fair in my analysis of Maharaji's undeniable and immense charm ?

Subject: Deppie didn't mean you! [nt] From: Christina -) To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 14:58:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Deppie didn't mean you! From: Dep To: Christina -) Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:49:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, Christina is right. Don't take it personally. If anyone I was referring to Jim. Christina you are like a guardian angel. A true angel you are. If you don't mind my asking, how old are you? =) =)

Subject: I understand and agree with you, Dog From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:03:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Almost the exact same thing happened here with an aspirant named Rainbow. In fact Cosmic Traveller posted last week on Life is Great to celebrate Rainbow's first year birthday of having K. This guy also was on welfare (still is) and the church-ladies were very reluctant to take him seriously as an aspirant. He also has improved a lot but he still dresses hippie not ''hippie-preppie'' (what IS that BTW?) M and K have obviously been a positive force in his life. You said: ''That’s why I can’t find myself hating PR or ridiculing K because I’ve seen it work!'' Well, I don't hate Rev Rawat and I still enjoy meditating BUT I do not agree with you when you say, ''I've seen IT work.'' What you and I have seen in these two old crusties is THEY have started to work. Maybe not real jobs - but at least they have started to make SOME effort and not sit around depressed and apathetic on their bums all day long on welfare. It is their effort which has improved their lives. Sure Rawat provided the hope and inspiration. That's why I won't knock premies - because some people are not self-motivated and do need someone to inspire them.

Subject: to Dog From: Thorin To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:05:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dog I know your post was addressed to Loaf, I hope you don't mind me jumping in. Your objective observation (your bolding) is based on a fallacy, the fallacy that you believe that M and K was the direct cause of this guys improvement, which no doubt occurred, no one would argue with you on that. I would put it to you that this guy, through his own self-motivation, picked himself up by his own boot straps. The context he used was watching videos, receiving the meditation techniques and going from there. There are many other contexts that this could have happened. I can't remember when you took Knowledge (I did in early 70's), I do remember many poorly dressed, grubby, paranoid, hunched over, shifty-eyed people coming to M&K and getting the improvement you speak of. However it is clear that is was through their own motivation that they made the step-change. Question for you? Do you believe that the self-serving, delusional thinking and narrow belief system that M displays is healthy for his followers in the long run? I personally don't think hating PR or ridiculing K is what is happening here. What is happening here is understanding the dynamics of cults, what damage cults can do and providing a forum for rational discussion and, hopefully, assisting others who no longer feel comfortable in following Maharaji. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Dog From: Dep =) To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 13:45:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response Thorin. You said, 'However it is clear that is was through their own motivation that they made the step-change.' Well my answer to that is, 'So what!' They got better didn't they? Who cares how it happened. You also asked if I 'believe that the self-serving, delusional thinking and narrow belief system that M displays is healthy for his followers in the long run?' Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. Thanks Thorin.

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Thorin To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 15:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog You said: Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. What's that meant to mean?! Does anything justify the means? Really?! There is a moral and ethical dimension here that absolutly has to be considered. I hope you will. Here is a man that has shown over and over again that he cares not one jot about morals and ethics (witness his behaviour on the Jagdeo situation, his walking away after killing someone, his.... no you go and read EPO once again). Can it be justified that people follow a man of such shallow integrity? A man that only serves himself (and the sycophants that he surrounds himself with). Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, in fact I feel truly sorry for him as he is totally trapped and there is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that he may change. Do you not consider the possibility that by following him, and adjusting oneself to his worldview, that one can be tarnished in a negative manner? It is not only about me, mine, I and myself and that experience - it is also about understanding something more. I hope you 'get it'. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Dep To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 00:35:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog You said: Doesn't work for me, but hey, whatever turns you on. What's that meant to mean?! Does anything justify the means? Really?! There is a moral and ethical dimension here that absolutly has to be considered. I hope you will. Here is a man that has shown over and over again that he cares not one jot about morals and ethics (witness his behaviour on the Jagdeo situation, his walking away after killing someone, his.... no you go and read EPO once again). Can it be justified that people follow a man of such shallow integrity? A man that only serves himself (and the sycophants that he surrounds himself with). Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, in fact I feel truly sorry for him as he is totally trapped and there is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that he may change. Do you not consider the possibility that by following him, and adjusting oneself to his worldview, that one can be tarnished in a negative manner? It is not only about me, mine, I and myself and that experience - it is also about understanding something more. I hope you 'get it'. warmly, Thorin --- Thorin, I think that most premies (I may be wrong) relate to Maharaji (I mean Mr. Rawat) on the level of meditation. On that level, there is no entropy, no right and wrong, no morality. It's beyond all that. They don't relate so much to the man, as they do to their inner experience. Mr. Rawat's behaviour is not divine but their experience of their own inner purity is.

Subject: Re: to Dog (again!) From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 08:58:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog that's completely wrong. I know some extremely devoted premies who have hardly ever meditated, yet they adore Maharaji with a fervour that is almost fanatical. And for the premies that do meditate, if their experience really did give them wisdom, they would easily be able to see that it doesn't come from him but from themselves. It wouldn't lead them to have feelings for him. Their feelings for him are closely related to the fact that they have decided he is something truly special - if not God in human form, then something along those lines. The sycophantism says it all. They don't relate so much to the man, as they do to their inner experience. How can you say that, Dog? If that were true, why do you think they travel all the way to Amaroo so they can hang on his every word? Please get real! Love, Livia

Subject: Another keeper, Loafie. Fabulous! From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:55:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you save your posts - well some of them.

Subject: gmj hates books From: Marshall To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 00:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: I read that gmj once said that he tried to read a book once and became bored with it and threw it away. Then in the same tirade he put down movies and all fiction in general. Can you imagine? Prim-pal is such a bore!

Subject: Re: gmj hates books From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:13:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AArrrgh!!! He hates books! So of course the premies I talked about a while ago who mysteriously seem to echo Maharaji's tastes in Applemacs, dirty books, astrology and tarot cards probably reject books as part of the same syndrome. Unless he liked books, of course, in which case you'd catch them all reading avidly. One massive aspect of culture rubbished in one fell swoop by this 'teacher of self knowledge.' I know he used to take a dim view of modern art as well, but don't know if this is still the same case. I have certainly noticed that when you talk to a premie about any aspect of culture, many of them will do a quick mental check - 'What does Maharaji think about this? Does he approve?' before they answer. Oh dear, it's very sad. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: gmj hates books From: Thorin To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 05:59:41 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: and pretends to be very knowledgeable about various subjects. Often I have heard him spout off on subjects that I have a good understanding on. He always shows a very thin understanding and most often gets the wrong end of the stick. Then to cap it he uses his limited understanding to conclude something significant about life and this world. And the merry dance continues with the PWKs feeling that they are useless, have understood nothing, prompting a false sense of gratitude to the massa. It is all so connived and transparent. Love, Thorin

Subject: HE didn't seem to hate movies From: Hal To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 02:35:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hypocracy is his speciality though.... We hired a cinema , the Odeon in Elephant and castle , London, so that he could watch Star Wars 17 without being contaminated by ordinary human beings. Around 20 premies with him and the kids. We also hired his favourite Hollybood Indian films, from the film companies direct so he could watch them in his home cinema. Anyone remember going to the circus on Hansi's birthday? We hired the whole circus for a private performance!

Subject: Re: HE didn't seem to hate movies From: Livia To: Hal Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:56:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things seem to be coming out about how worried Maharaji gets by the idea of being 'contaminated' by ordinary people. Echoes of Michael Jackson? Maybe it's something that can happen to people when they're treated like a god, as Jackson pretty much was for a while. Does anybody here have any first-hand experience of this aspect of Maharaji? Love, Liv

Subject: Yes I was there From: Jethro To: Hal Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:23:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only the ashram prenmies and 'very special' community premies were allowed to come. Georgr Blodwell was in the act there somehwere. And so was prem in his godfather suit. all the best Jethro

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:43:29 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Jethro Only ashram and special community premies? I too remember being there at the circus with Hansi all dressed up - what a gas that was. However I never was in the ashram not was I a special community premie - I always kept on the fringes. For the life of me I can't remember how I got an invite or indeed when or where this happened. Any ideas? Also do you remember the time we all went to the Brighton auditorium and had Leslie Crowther the comedian do his stand up show with M sitting in the front row? If I remember correctly some relation of Leslie Crowther (his son?) was a premie. Thorin

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:06:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I may have got the Brighton event slightly wrong. I was just chatting to someone and he said that M may not have been there. In any event it was a 'celebration' of M's birthday or somesuch. Leslie Crowther GuruPuja! :) Thorin

Subject: Re: Yes I was there (circus?) From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:48:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was Brighton in the early to mid 80s, I remember because I had to trail a pushchair through the the place with my youngest ( I PUKE AT THE THOUGHT i EVER TOOK MY OFFSPRING TO ANY OF IT ) Nicholas Parsons who is a very witty and urbane gentleman led the birthday fest. Premie offspring were given trinkets as Christmas presents from the Lord. None of them got a plane or anything dangerous as they were too little to fly alone, so just a few dinky cars and dollys etc. I recall it was more lucky dip than presents from uncle prem. Strangely now you mention it I can't remember if God was there either, and it's the sort of thing you'd expect to notice isn't it? Love etc. Bolly

Subject: Recollections and memory From: Thorin To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 08:25:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, sheesh my memory really is failing me. yes it was Nick Parsons. I got all my comedians mixed up. Same thing with Maharaji, Mahaheshi, Sai Baba, Osho and Free John. All comedians the lot of them. Re offspring. There was a strong consensus at that time that any child born to a premie was truly blessed, would have a fast-track to realisation of K and become pure devotees. Do you remember listening to satsang from children who received K at a very young age (some below 10 years) - we all got very inspired in our cult impregnated days. Amazes me that so many children made it through those dysfuntional times with many going on to lead normal lives. One exception I know of however was very sad - ultimately led to his suicide after many years of trauma. A recollection for another time perhaps but directly connected, in my mind, with the imbued sense of irresponsibilty that was around the cult and that we all immersed ourselves in. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Recollections and memory From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:33:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you remember him once saying: 'All my mothers are hand-picked?' I used to think about the premie mothers who had abandoned their children or had them taken into care, or were quite honestly irresponsible parents, and think 'Duh????'

Subject: Re: Recollections and memory From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 10:47:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv Nope don't remember M saying that but he spouted so much drivel that I am sure I filtered that out reasonably well. :) But you do raise an important point about irresponsibility. There was a sense (still is?!) that to be irresponsible was a responsible attitude to take as it demonstrated our surrender to Maharaji. The surrender that would allow M to take care of things (not a leaf moves ...) and by his grace (sore point for you I know) our worldy cares would be solved. We could absolve ourselves of these - and greedily did. No wonder so many careers were either broken or not started. Back to children. I once was invited to help out for one week various premie children on a vacation they had at Torpoint (the Premie School that AJW started). That was a brilliant week with much love and joy. However I was struck by how so many of these children (about 30 in all at the time) had very strange attitudes, were sorely dysfunctional and simply craved to have a fair orderly structure around them. I knew many of their families, the parents of whom by and large spent their lives (and their borrowed money) trawling one M event after another. No wonder huh! Love to you Liv, Thorin

Subject: Metamorphosis From: Thorin (ex OPIE) To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:22:52 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Due to recent confusions with a historical poster name OP (Old Premie) and OPIE who sometimes abbreviates to OP a new phantasm Thorin is transmutated today from OPIE. +) Of tales of yore the mission of Thorin will be to find and retrieve the lost treasure that was snatched by the dragon of Malibu and bring it all back home. Thorin will continue to take lessons from braver and wiser souls with a similar path. Thorin, in fact, is not a phantasm but a real life simpleton who is known by many inhabitants of this land, the land of F7 where truth and wisdom prevail. :D Love, Thorin

Subject: Thorin Oakensheild? From: janet To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:03:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he of the Dwarves of Middle Earth?

Subject: Re: Thorin Oakensheild? From: Thorin To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 06:06:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: snap! love, Thorin

Subject: Reminds me of Noggin the Nog OT From: Moley To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 18:46:41 (EDT) Email Address: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Where are you Loafie??

Subject: There and back Again From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 00:53:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here I am Moley ! Hows ya keeping ? Loafie formerly known as Ian Warburton

Subject: Re: There and back Again From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:37:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Keepin' fine. Off to Mole and Ratty's place today - again! Catch yer next week for a cuppa? Moley formally known as Moldy Warp formerly known as Mad.

Subject: Re: Metamorphosis From: Richard To: Thorin (ex OPIE) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:53:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And we will be thorin' to new heights together.;) Always good to see what you have to say Thorin formerly known as Opie. Richard formerly known as Postie

Subject: Prashad From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 04:15:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahhh Richard who channels Postie, Postie who is infinitly realized and has merged with the void of nothing. I did in fact receive the prashad of half-eaten tofu burger that Postie in his infinite kindness sent to me at Anacapa View Drive, Malibu CA 90265. Thanks for organizing that. I have, sadly, forgotton Postie's ten-fold path to nothing and continue to be attacked by the sharks of maya. :) Love, Thorin

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