Subject: to: JHB From: Salam To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 19:59:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried to access the forum archives for F5 and they are not there. Any Idea? Maybe Jim removed them to hide the evidence that he wants to control the Xs [just thinking to myself ;) ]

Subject: They are there From: JHB To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 01:17:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, They are there if you follow the link from the home page. If you have them bookmarked then you may need to update your bookmarks. John.

Subject: If they are there then they got to be hidding From: Salam To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 04:02:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because this is the link to the archives http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/archive5.htm from the site map on epo and there ain't no archives. Someone either removed them or they got siphoned out. Non of the links work. But then I could be on the wrong page.

Subject: Apologies From: JHB To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:57:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, The site map is incorrect, but there is a link from the home page, under the Best of Forum link. I'll fix the site map shortly. John.

Subject: Sitemap corrected From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 12:26:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The link to the forum archives on the Sitemap page has now been corrected. Thanks for letting me know. John.

Subject: Queen Mum died today (OT). From: Carl To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 13:14:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even though I am not British, I always rather liked her; she seemed kindly and good-natured, at least based upon the scant information we'd get in the U.S. (Of course, there always is the PR spin put out by the palace spokespeople, but still . . . ) It also seemed that the affection was mutual between the average British citizen and the Queen Mother. The people loved her for some reason. Why is that? Could it be she expressed herself as a simple human being, without constantly reinforcing upon her subjects her position as figurehead, as "royalty", insisting upon deference and adulation? Or did she? There was the whole regal history and apparatus to do that job. I'm reminded of a verse from the Tao Te Ching: "The great rulers -- the people do not notice their existence; The lesser ones -- they attach to and praise them; The still lesser ones -- they fear them; The still lesser ones -- they despise them. For where faith is lacking, it cannot be met by faith." Carl

Subject: Of course, Carl From: Dermot To: Carl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 10:37:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't judge general UK popular opinion of the 'ole Duchess' by the outporings of us mixed band of Irish Nationalists, lefties,misfits,ex-weirdcultists,whingers,class rebels,non-conformists,anti-imperialists, republicans,no doff the cap-ists,cynics,atheists or whatever..... :) :) Sir Dave is more in line with general mood I guess. I think though, mainly, it was the war generation who related to her most. She can't help the fact that she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth from day one.....in fact, I've just watched a C4 profile of her (much better than the drivel of the other channels including the BBC) and I understand her better BUT I still stand by what I've already written. Nevertheless,a life is a life and whether it's a priveleged one or not...I can only wish anyone bon voyage into nothingness (or something else ness....perhaps).I hope my mother gets to over 100 and still retains her mental faculties and zest for life as the Queens mother did. My mother's in her early 80's and still sharp-witted. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Queen Mum The Procuress? (OT) From: Nottm Bunny To: Carl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 09:22:49 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: What a sentimental lot we Brits can be. However, the Queen Mum was not quite the sweet old innocent that she is portrayed according to the following article in today’s Sunday Times. Bunny March 31, 2002 Tragedy of the princess she created and discarded 'She is the most successful sex symbol the British monarchy has ever known,' wrote Penelope Mortimer in her biography of the Queen Mother. That judgment, from an intelligent and responsible writer, gave rise to no dissent when it was published in 1986 but was balderdash by 1997. In the intervening years Diana, whom the Queen Mother chose as a suitable consort for her beloved grandson, had soared into mega stardom and replaced the woman who had befriended, promoted and finally discarded her. It is yet another Greek tragedy in the troubled story of the House of Windsor. In its destinies the Queen Mum had till then played a heroic and beneficent role. One error of judgment, well nigh impossible to foresee, destroyed much of her lifetime's dedicated work. It was a tragedy that had begun with the very best of intentions.Prince Charles, who by his own testimony on all our television screens, had felt uncared for by his parents, had one sterling ally in his grandmother. In her eyes he could do no wrong. Like each Prince of Wales before him, he was feted wherever he went. The most eligible girls in the world were his for the taking. But it was a condition of his good fortune that he must marry and give the nation an heir. His 30th birthday came and went. The time was ripe for him to fulfil his dynastic destiny. Now his grandmother made her ill-fated move. One of her oldest friends was her lady-in-waiting Ruth, Lady Fermoy. She had a granddaughter, Lady Diana Spencer, who was 11 years younger than Charles, shy, beautiful and innocent. In his shattering Westminster address at her funeral Earl Spencer reminded the world that his sister had been named after the ancient goddess of the chase. He did not add that she was also the goddess of chastity. In retrospect we can see that it was folly to throw such a child into the maelstrom of monarchy; at the time it seemed charming and romantic. The two elderly ladies could congratulate themselves on a match made in heaven. It was, however, a match predicated on a fatally outmoded notion of morality and honour. For a royal to take a mistress was in the eyes of the Queen Mother par for the course. Edward VII, for example, had famously kept mistresses and his wife, Queen Alexandra, had turned a blind eye to them. The Queen Mother liked Lady Furness, one of Edward VIII's mistresses, and had been incensed at the cowardly way he got rid of another, Freda Dudley Ward, by instructing the switchboard operator at York House not to put her through. So she was tolerant of her grandson's continuing idyll with Camilla Parker Bowles. She went further. She helped the clandestine lovers keep in touch by installing a private line at Birkall Lodge, her Scottish home on the Balmoral estate, for them to use. That line was in constant use, often twice a day when Charles was holidaying at Balmoral with his sons. When the news got back to Diana it was just one of a whole string of shattering betrayals she felt she had suffered at the hands of the House of Windsor — but one of the most bitter. 'I now have a hate-love relationship with the Queen Mother,' she told friends. 'I thought I could trust her. But this news makes me realise what a fool I have been.' Yet there were deeper reasons for the rift between them. The Queen Mother, reared in the trammelled Edwardian world, did not believe in the overt display of emotion; certainly not in its tactile expression. Diana was soon to find that she had an extraordinary gift for reaching out — to the sick, the poor and the disadvantaged. All the Queen Mother could do, in contrast, was smile and wave. It was no contest. Diana effortlessly upstaged her. 'One thing the Queen Mother does not care for is competition,' wrote her biographer Michael De-la-Noy. Diana, he claimed, 'discovered gifts she had no idea when she married that she possessed, and in a journey of self-discovery she determined to exploit them for the benefit of herself and others . . . it was a dazzling virtuoso performance such as the beloved Queen Mother herself might have envied. Which, unfortunately, she did.' The final rift came with the publication in 1992 of Andrew Morton's book Diana: Her True Story. It painted a vivid and distressing picture of Diana's marriage, and portrayed Charles in a less than attractive light. The Queen Mother saw it as the ultimate betrayal of her beloved grandson. 'At the Trooping the Colour in 1992 Diana was in the room from which the Queen Mother and other members of Royal Family watch at Horse Guards Parade and was virtually ostracised,' wrote De-la-Noy. 'You could have cut the atmosphere with my sword,' commented a senior army officer who was on duty there that day. Small wonder that in her celebrated television interview Diana referred to her battle against 'the enemy'. So we come to the ghastly denouement of the tragedy. The Queen Mother, who had meant so well, done so much good to the monarchy and then unwittingly so much harm, walked gamely on her stick but otherwise unaided into Westminster Abbey for Diana's funeral service. She sat stony-faced as Diana's brother, once a royal page, castigated the royal family in front of a billion people. The romantic dream the Queen Mother had spun for her favourite grandson had ended in a waking nightmare.

Subject: Hi Easter Bunny From: Kelly To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:30:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know its not very nice to speak ill of the dead, but I've been to so many funerals in the last few weeks that it doesn't really seem to make a difference. We're all part of eternity anyhow. But, my point is, I seem to recall some terrible old skeletons in Queen Mum's cupboard, a sister or two locked up in mental asylums? Can anyone elaborate on this? Hows the chocolate fast going? Kelly

Subject: A right Royal snob, racist and bigot From: JohnT To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 15:02:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Establishment British press have reported this, but it was very hard to turn up anything at all. Here's a snippet from an article I eventually found by dint of remorseless searching (emphasis added)... WHEN THE Queen Mother married into the royal family in 1923 she was hailed as the first 'commoner' ever to have done so. She was not exactly 'common'. She was the daughter of the Earl of Strathmore, and her full name was Lady Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon. Hers was a typically caring aristocratic family. Two of Elizabeth's nieces were disabled at birth and secretly locked away in a mental institution for the rest of the lives. The public were told they were dead decades before it was true. She married Prince Albert who was second in line to the throne. Elizabeth was also keen on Albert's brother, the man directly in line to throne, who would later become Edward VIII. You can read the full, ah, alternative view of this particular Royal at the linked url Socialist Worker www.socialistworker.co.uk/1706/sw170614.htm

Subject: Great link JohnT. Thanks (NT) From: Nottm Bunny To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 15:30:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: Sobering stuff Easter Bunny! From: DR To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 09:49:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks very much for that. A fascinating and enlightening read. It is a sad fact that the British aristocricy behaves in very much that kind of a way. Senior members of my family considered Diana to be a 'complete embarrassment' and that her final destiny was a 'relief for all'. Holy fucking bejeebers!! I live the opposite side of the planet to England - such is the repugnace I feel for that mindset and other simliar jewels that darkened the days in the green and pleasant hills. A British 'lady' is the most accomplished manipulator within the human species. Behind the perfectly set cutesy smile of the women aristocrat (circa pre-war) lies a steel jawed vulture. Just like the ones that mothered the last generation of English slaughtermen who set out across the globe to overun innocent tribal nations with their guns, their education their religion and their dicks. What a wonderful world. Ho Ho

Subject: So? [nt] From: JohnT To: Carl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 03:22:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The commoner who became Queen by mistake From: Sir Dave To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 20:32:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She always had the common touch and that wasn't suprising since she wasn't of royal blood. She was reluctant to marry into the royal family and turned down the proposal of marriage twice before finally accepting Prince Albert's proposal. Even then, she was not in line for the throne and it was only by Edward's abdication when he refused to give up Wallis Simpson that she and her shy, retiring Prince Albert were both plunged headlong by events to take the throne of Britain. She was the real power behind the throne both in Prince Albert's (renamed King George VI) reign and also her daughter, Queen Elizabeth's reign. Prince Charles has often admited that she is the real boss behind the present monarchy. I'm sure she has been the oldest, monarch who has ever lived. The life of Elizabeth the Queen Mother www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/queen.mum/stories/bio.part1/index.html

Subject: Commoner? Get out Dave! From: DR To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 02:30:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's nonsense Dave, her original family came from Hesse Cassel where my ancestors also lived (according to the 3rd edition of Burkes Landed gentry 1858) 'flourishing in great importance for centuries'. Hardly commoners. Burkes continues... 'Amongst the signatures of the 'great officers and servants' of the Royal household on the association roll taken in 1696, Conrad Roupell is mentioned as the 'Royal Cupbearer, 'Mundschencken or Tassel decker (oderschenken)'. 'In addition to Royal Cupbearer, Conrad was also known as groom of the Ewry, concerned with and in charge of the Royal basins, jugs etc. This may be a sinecure for which he received 40 pounds a year, his wages being 2 pounds and board wages 37pounds six and fourpence a year.' Burks Peerage. Which may explain why, several centuries later, a lowly servant named David R was seen at a large estate in Queensland and was noted as written in the logs as the 'Ewry of the Portaloo' (concerned with the emptying and cleaning of such items situated in royal pents close to the King's residence). It was noted that Mr R developed an infatuation with his favorite client, a Ms M L and deliberately hung around her Pent waiting for another chance to chat and the possible procurement of a dinner date. It was only later, when he was relieved of his duties, that he became aware that he had been competing for her affections with half the Royal Household and was a little out of his league. Needless to say he is no longer the Ewry of the Portaloo but still cherishes fond memories of her bright early morning chatter and delightful evening strolls around the palace grounds, a true princess amongs the gum trees. Back to Mum Queenie as we used to call her (and yes, she was always very very sweet whenever we were 'presented' to her). The cynics are saying 'how interesting to see the two Gin soaks departing within a month of each other. Like Mum like daughter eh?' As my youthful memory recalls, apart from her mother Margaret was always the most palatable and 'real' member of the Royal household. I was often enraged by the scoffing opinions proffered around the dining tables of London town, especially during her heyday with Roddy Lewellen and the Rolling Stones (who, incidentally, were more awed in her presence than the other way around, contrary to what the press let us know at the time). No, she was a social powerhouse and had all her sister's wit and wisdom but was allowed to demonstrate it in a much more 'exhuberant' and forthright fashion. As well as being able to quaff considerably more spirits that her sister was allowed! Phil wil be next, then we'll get ....what, a new age herbal tea and homeopathic royalty? They shoot ducks don't they?

Subject: you made him what he is From: janet To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:38:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you mock charles and his homeopathy and herbal tea, yet we as premies went gung ho into that whole lifestyle, headlong, pushing it on everyone everywhere, as part and parcel of our belief in salvation thru purification. we are as much to blame as anyone is. Charles is what you have made him, as well as what he has made of himself. you mock him, you mock yourself first. and perhaps fate will intervene, and charles will never get to ascend. what will you do if his son has to step up and take over ? are you going to sneer at him, too? you know, if icared to, i could pull all these airs and snobbery as i see you strut around here. I am a direct descendent of Robert the Bruce, on my mother's side. and my son's father's line carries their coat of arms from the 14th century for service to the royal family, as well. so f'g what? you distinguish yourself as a human being, by character and deed and spirit and heart. the pedigree is yours to raise or ruin in your own lifetime. I don't consider Prem Pal singh Rawat a king. He's a coward surrounded by sycophants.And Marolyn Lois Johnson Rawat is a suburban daughter of working American Parents , a stewardess who married a pilot who did'nt pay for his own flyng lessons or his plane. Shri Hans was no king either. He was a politically cynical young hothead who met his comeuppance in the face of one far more advanced person and hung around till that individual died, and then he took off barefoot and destitute, and fashioned himself into a tinsel doll, to be worshipped by ignorant countrymen, who treated him as divine because he told them to. No more. I find it laughable that you think taking your centuries of pompous yet servile heritage, and subjugating it, to these ego-deluded, grabby, vain, pretenders to greatness, is a noble and venerable thing. you're a waterboy, David. Wake up. They can get their own damned water. They're Americans, for crissake. Marolyn, at least, was raised with modern indoor plumbing. Prem pal, well....he came up with somewhat less sanitary surroundings, didn't he.

Subject: Re: Commoner? Get out David! From: PatC To: DR Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 04:19:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon may not have been a commoner but both her and her dead daughter, Margaret, were sure ''common'' - they did not pay there bills. I know because I worked in the pharmacy in Kensington that they both frequented. (I, the lowly pill-pusher, and they, the high and mighty, who used to have the the joint closed so that they could shop in private.) They bankrupted the pharmacist who had owned it. It was bought by South Africans which is how I ended up there. In fact the Queen Mum was infamous for not paying bills. Margaret's then husband, Lord Snowden, once came in at 7 am on a Sunday morning - yes I had to work weekends - saying he had a horrible hangover and a dry throat from smoking too much the night before and asked for some remedies. The old pharmacist who had gone bankrupt still worked there (they kept him on because he knew all the royalty and peers) but he was stone deaf and often said tactless things in what he thought was a whisper but could be heard by all. He advised Lord Snowden (a real commoner if ever I saw one) to take some aspirin and blackcurrant pastilles. Snowden said: ''I've got aspirin but how do you use the pastilles?'' The pharmacist replied in what he thought was a whisper that only I could hear: ''Stick them up your arse.'' I bent down to get the pastilles from a low shelf and Snowden patted my arse. Well, that was 34 years ago and it was still.....well. Royalty is a much worse scam than the Rawat Family Circus. At least the Rawats had more than one gene.

Subject: Rapacious Royals From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 15:58:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know someone whose grandmother remembered big arguments between her parents about what to hide when Queen Mary came to stay(Queen Mother's mentor)as she would expect to go home with whatever took her fancy in the house. I have to say that I'm a Royalist;in the constitutional sense as per the arrangements in GB. What's interesting to me in the notion of Royalty is how deep seated it is,even amongst yankee rebels.This is one of the things that Rawat hijacked to his own advantage. I'm still trying to understand how a bunch of iconaclasts shoehorned a little prick from the back of beyond into the King of King's slot. Don't tell me premies:it's the experience.(I know)

Subject: Re: Commoner? Get out David! From: DR To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 10:23:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't surprise me Pat, You're right, all in all they're a bunch of cads. Snowdon was always considered an 'outsider', poor fucker didn't stand a chance any more than Diana did. Your friend should have given them some Lisergic Acid Dithelamide. That would have sure done the trick. We just saw the last gripping and shocking episode of a TV series called The Six Wives Of Henry V111. That fat ugly prick set a whole new standard for love and courtship, loyalty and trust. What a great role model for us future generations of his most noble and Royal Kingdom to read about in our classrooms. My elder brother has a lovely looking coloured and finely scrolled binding of a suitably enlarged 'family tree' hanging on the wall of his formal drawing room. This unsubtle eye catcher chronicles our glorious ascent into the heady clouds of nobility. Half way up the page is the scrawled caligraphic entry bearing the letters Henry Tudor, (V11) with his descendant a few twigs down bearing our name. I don't believe a letter of it. Grandpa would have told us years ago! And we would be even bigger pompous pricks than we already are towards our lowly fellow Englishmen, and completely insufferable to the rest of the world. Hey, if you pay enough you could probably get any old duck into your family tree these days. Think I'll re-incarnate myself as Edward Van Halen's admiring younger brother. That'd be pretty neat. The Rawat family are a gas. Though I must confess I only know three of them. I met Wadi last year. She was smart, sexy, funny and had a very humble bearing considering her social position at Amaroo. Daya is a lot of fun to watch when she's rehearsing her songs for the night. She does short but hilarious send ups from a raunchy blues singer to a shmoozy night clubber. Great sense of humour, fine musician and also a spunk.

Subject: Oh Dave!! From: Dermot To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 23:35:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She always had the common touch and that wasn't suprising since she wasn't of royal blood. That's if you call being born into an aristrocatic semi-feudal Scottish, Royal hob-nobbing family.......COMMON :) :) :) She was born into exceptional privelege ( at a time when kids in the north of England especially but all over the UK generally were starving, shoeless rakes:) ) and she lived every one of her 102 years in incubated privelege.....while the people with the real COMMON touch had to endure whatever. OK the UK now is a rich, modern country with a bit more meriticoracy and a lot less aristocracy but ....let's not get carried away .....she was about as common as a trillion pound note :) Cheers me old Knight of the Realm ( oh we're off to Dublin in the green in the green With our bayonets flashing in the sun We're off to join the IRA To the echo of a Thompson gun..... :) :) -Paddy murphy Almost puking listening to the hushed, sycophantic tones of the UK media.

Subject: ...a long life From: Dermot To: Carl Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 16:57:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Though I'm not a loyal Royalist by any stretch of the imagination...too much Irish repulicanism in my blood for that. I guess she was ok as far as people go, pleasant enough and all that.....but very priveleged and fawned over...not my cup of tea really. Recently an old woman of 102 was in the news because she went on a protest to the PM's office in Downing Street. Some big business org was gonna take over the old folks home she was living in,more or less throw out the residents and redevelop it, sell it and make a fast buck. A fine old, dignified working class lady she was too. Tony Blair was 'too busy' to see her. Tonight Blair is filling the screens with his ever so serious face blabbing on about the Queens mother as if she was almost divine or something....blah blah blah blah. Now if as much attention was given to all old folks instead of a priveleged few this place would be a better country.....as it is...roll on the Republic. Incidentally, the old 102 year old lady's protest paid off....the biz behind the affair pulled out. Probably due to the publicity. Cheers Dermot

Subject: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 08:20:13 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Here’s a report written for Ros Sutton, then head of EV’s International PR team, by Glen Whittaker, head of EV in the UK, in August 1997. The report outlines the major emerging PR threats to Maharaji’s work. It was OCR scanned for me by a very recent ex - thanks Konni! The first of this document’s two sections is on the growing awareness of Maharaji’s apparently forged ‘lineage’, and the damage this might do to his work. This section is long - and some may find it a little boring. To avoid information overload, I’ll post it separately within a week. What follows is the intro, and the second section, which deals with the threat to Maharaji’s work from EPO and the forum - and with strategies for neutralising this. Best Regards, John PR CONSIDERATIONS - AUGUST 1997 REPORT BY G.W. FOR R.S. It seems to me Ros that the two major areas where adverse PR could occur over the next period, say the next two years, are (1) the growing interest in and knowledge of the so-called Rhadasoami Tradition which would claim thart M is just one of several teachers forming part of a new Indian religious tradition, giving out a similar message and teaching similar meditation techniques, and (2) the rapid growth in discussion on the Internet on M, which has several negative aspects. I will address both of these briefly and comprehensively, so that you can have an understanding of what is out there without spending too much time delving into it yourself. 1. The Rhadasoami Tradition. [To be posted soon.] 2. INTERNET Much of the Internet material concerns, firstly, what is seen as M's profligate use of money during the late '70's, particularly in relation to Dacca, with potentially damaging stories of how it was collected and processed, and secondly, as I reported after my first meeting with Patrick Wilson, the very bad feeling many people seem to have still as a result of their life in the ashram from 1978 till they closed, around 1983. Both these concerns will need addressing at some point, one feels, they are so strongly expressed and felt, they will not go away. If they, and particularly the second, are ignored, they will continue to fester as an ever-present source of potential damage to M's present work. Stories about M's personal life, in particular the interview with Mischler, can be handled easily by pointing out the by and large exemplary life he has led, especially compared to the extreme abuse visited on disciples by other 'masters'. In any area of comparison, M comes out far, far ahead. Even the heavy drinking reported by Mishler at the time of the family break-up, and we have to assume exaggeration to beef up the drama of Mischler's tale, is understandable in terms of the incredible stress M was going through at the time, combined with his own need to live a normal life with its own growing pains and youth experiments. The story of the 707 can only be answered, in my view, by not hiding it, but freely admitting (if faced with questions on it by journalists) that Maharaji had the intention of creating a travelling headquarters, which is true, whereby he and a large group of initiators and organisation aides would move from country to country in an effort to spread Knowledge far and wide. The plan was therefore honorable, but was found to be unworkable in practice and was jettisoned in Maharaji's attempts to find the right formula to continue his work. It is worth saying that shortly after this he closed down the ashram system as being unworkable in the west, and spent two or more years in semi-retirement while he thought out how to go forward. As the New Yorker journalist points out in a riposte to the angry letters about the ashram at that time, he thinks it to M's credit that rather than get stuck in the old rut like so many other so-called gurus, M had the courage to change things, and in his case he 'got his sister back' as a result, as a functioning human being taking on a family role again and ceasing proslytising on M's behalf. This is a very positive point. So the 707 can be seen as a wild but valid attempt to do things in a different way. What is more difficult to explain is the sumptiousness of the decor of the plane - gold-plated taps etc. When one internet person who worked on the plane claimed it had a diamond encrusted toilet seat, he says it as an exaggeration, but one senses the opulence was not far off . This we have to accept and shrug off - yes, M did want it appointed to very high standards of comfort, is our answer, but only because he would be living in this plane for most of his time. The ownership and funding of the project might cause further complications,, was it owned by EV-US? If not there could have been an illegality and Virgil needs consulting on where we stand on this. The ashram question is even more difficult to deal with. Many of the correspondents appear to feel they had been badly abused and taken advantage of, losing years of their life in something they were promised would be worthwhile and permanent, but was not. In particular, David Smith is criticised for what was seen as his inhunman disregard for personal feelings as he implemented (as it is understood) Maharaji's instructions to encourage married pwk's to end their relationships and move into the ashram. Most of all, constant reference is made to a meeting of ashram pwk's with M at Kissimee where he was understood to have said the ashram is permanent, its inmates are his chosen fast-track people, but at the same time impressed his 'divine' credentials by saying he could, if he wished, 'turn them all blue and make them fly'. Shortly after he closed the ashrams, leaving an enormous sense of let-down. What is asked for on the internet is for Maharaji to acknowledge what happened, and either explain it or apolgise for it. We can of course point out that 1 - life in M's ashrams, even in those 'dark' days, as they are perceived, was respectful of the individual, beautiful and after all voluntary compared to the real abuse visited by almost all other so-called masters on their devotees. 2. it was again an experiment where M was trying for the first time to bring the traditional way K was taught and practised to the west. He found it did not work but only by trial and error, and then had the courage to abandon it, in effect to cut his losses, even knowing this would cause pain to those who had become reliant on the ashram system. Now all this experimentation has led to what we have today, a way of spreading Knowledge which combines efficiency with humanity. If some people resent being 'trapped' in the ashram at that time, it is regrettable, but it was their free choice. And far from blighting careers, etc, a few years in a monastic environment, dedicated to the inner beauty, cannot be claimed to be time lost or wasted; it has another value which ought to be given some credence. The only real answer to this is that M himself lent his full authority to persuading people to adopt this lifestyle, which did come close to a negation of personal liberty and choice, and this has led to strong resentment against him personally. It is as if they want him to acknowledge that he may however unintentionally have misled them, and even apologise. I do not see how he could do this as 1. fundamentally it is their own misunderstanding that caused their problem, and 2. there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising. But it might be an effective way to neutralise this violent feeling for M in some way to address it. If this sting is drawn, much of the rest of the Internet criticism would begin to deflate. The pwk defenders of M in the correspondence make matters worse with their intemperate devotional righteous anger. Even Linda Gross does us a disservice by allowing herself to be reported as saying words to the effect that 'you will not get your questions answered unless you give him the respect he deserves', which led to much predictable derision.

Subject: To John From: AV To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 07:59:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I made a quick comment on the Glen posting below and have just noticed that the report was dated 1997, some 5 years ago; I was wondering what on earth is going on today behind locked doors?? Is anybody out there actually interested in K, however is it repackaged and the past history re-invented...? If there is to be a tumbling of the house of cards, it would be nice to think there are some truly compassionate souls out there to help some very damaged hearts and minds, if it comes to that. I used to have some very beautiful experiences, hence a lot of this is difficult to swallow, to say the least.

Subject: his abusive behaviour From: konni To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 20:33:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stories about M's personal life, in particular the interview with Mischler, can be handled easily by pointing out the by and large exemplary life he has led, especially compared to the extreme abuse visited on disciples by other 'masters'. --- this got me thinking, remembering first hand darshan stories, one in particular - does anyone else recall it: '...a premie blissfully watching Maharaji repeatedly slam another premie, who had fucked up, against the iron gates at the residence while he wished it was him being graced with this new method for getting rid of the mind...' this premie then came back to Australia to share his 'amazing darshan story'. I remember hearing other similar stories, but this one stuck because I could verify it was true and it felt distasteful - a drip.

Subject: Hi Glen From: PatW To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 20:13:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Glen! (I just by co-incidence met brother Glen down the pub - It was hard to talk above the band but we touched base - a nice vibe actually - I told him to look in here for a real cringe). Glen, despite our differences I always enjoy chatting with you because you aren't like these premies who deny all this stuff happened etc. and put an aggressive 'wall' up. I sense that you have a better understanding of , and even sympathy for, ex-premies' misgivings. As I just said to you, I personally appove of John posting this - in the spirit of 'No Secrecy' and I am sure that is why he posted it. I'm sure there's nothing personal going on here. Anyway I sense that deep down, you appreciate how openess and facing facts is ultimately cathartic for everyone concerned, from ex-premies, through current premies, and ultimately for Maharaji himself. I hope you don't get into any trouble for fraternising with the enemy! Remember your integrety matters. Good to see you and thank's Tim Hain for some good blues playing! Patrick

Subject: Hi Pat W, Glen and Ros From: Kelly To: PatW Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 12:01:00 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Hi Patrick, Very interesting to hear your voice so loud and clear in Glens letter to Ros. I know you have been very instrumental in revealing the truth about the Radhasoami Whammy. By the way , I still have your book, 'Radhasoami Reality' I will return it this week. I've just been doing a sort out and came accross it. Sorry I've held on to it so long. Hi Glen and Ros, we're old friends, I was Karen Ellison in those days, K. Elli(son) Hence Kelly, a real nickname. Ros and I shared a cupboard in the Reigate residence and spent many happy hours exploring the South Downs. Glen and I spent a lot of time together circa 1978, but I'd better not go into that! Cheers Glen. If you speak to Ros, I'd love to hear from her. She gave me her my phone number when I last saw her at Wembley but I've lost it. I'd love to talk to her now. Kelly kelly

Subject: You and Glen!?!?!? From: Nottm Bunny To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 13:40:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Glen and I spent a lot of time together circa 1978, but I'd better not go into that!' Hi Kelly, Go into it, go on, go on! Naughty Easter Bunny

Subject: Re: You and Glen!?!?!? From: kELLY To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 14:21:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: lOOK, Bunny, You have to remember the flavour of the times. I don't apologise and anyway I can't explain. I'm still trying to sort out the fundamental anomalies of being in a totally devotional cult. Poor Glen, He's such an innocent really, and many of us remember his humour and very funny anectdotes. I enjoyed his company. Kelly

Subject: Yes, hi from me too From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 20:46:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glen, If you're reading this, I'm not wrong, am I, about your welcoming the opportunity a few years ago to stand in our shoes for a few moments and talk about Maharaji honestly for a change? Tell me truthfully, did you ever think it would come to this? I mean, there you are, trying, at least, to find some possible escape route through the facts for your venal cult leader. All he's got to do is bite the bullet, admit a few unpleasant things, lie about a few more and ignore the rest and maybe, just maybe, he can keep on puttering along, slowly but surely saving the world and bringing peace to mankind. But even that proves too much for him. Tell me you're not extremely disappointed and even slightly ashamed yourself. Funny where life takes us sometimes, isn't it?

Subject: JM, 'grab' the above post! Thanks JMGNT From: silvia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 18:29:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: trial and error From: AV To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 16:37:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This may be an inappropriate comparison, but anyway..... If you go to buy a new car, you have a choice; accept everything the nicesalesman tells you, part company with your dosh , and hope all goes well, or.... read some reviews in motoring magazines, get on the net for user reports, and check with consumer advise bodies that the dealer is kosher...then if all still seems well, hand over the hard-earned and drive away, secure in the knowledge you did your best to check out the pitfalls... the only difference now with regard to M, is that all sorts of information is freely available to the seeker of truth, behind the scenes stuff where before most people only got to see the showroom.... and btw, what's all this 'trial and error' stuff, er, scuse me , thought we were talking about an ancient knowledge from a blood-line of perfect Masters?? would have thought the need for human guinea pigs had been dispensed with centuries ago.... And why couldn't ashrams , or at least some kind of retreat be kept in place at some level?? they are common to most disciplines or paths, and provide a valuable refuge thru' times of 'spiritual growth' or 'healing crises' or whatever is the favoured language of the day, And whats efficient and human about the knowledge is spread today, exactly?? I went abroad a while ago, and was interested at the time to see what events were on; not a thing on EV site, no events, no vids, not even a local contact number , and that was for THREE MONTHS!!! so much for efficient, and human??? DVD??? am I missing something, be glad to know If I am...

Subject: lila, lies and videotape..... From: la-ex To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 14:37:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this report, almost 5 years old now, points to the 2 major points of concern, at that time, about the growing criticisms of m... Isn't it funny how 2 videos appeared in the last few years addressing BOTH of these points? 1-As far as the lineage goes, a premie friend told me about a year ago that the video chronicling m's lineage was a 'must see' for anyone with knowledge... I'm sure it was, especially for its ability to inoculate the premies from the ever growing epo interest... 2-The gripes about the ashram and deca....funny how the new video glosses over the 'ashram era', and also tries to insinuate that if anyone has a problem with the way they were treated, it was their problem, not anything to do with m or the ashram itself.... Of course, this comes after Glen's famous 'revisionist histroy' about the early days, on one of m's early internet sites, which came down shortly after many, many exes quite accurately pointed out it's many lies and decetions... These people shold be ashamed of themselves... They should examine what it is in their own psychological makeup that causes them to defend such an obvious liar and manipulator like m...... Every time they try to hide behind another fabrication, it only digs the whole lot of them in, deeper and deeper.... It's fascinating, illuminating, liberating, and sad all at the same time.... M's world is unravelling and being exposed more each day......

Subject: Re: lila, lies and videotape..... From: Peter Howie To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 16:42:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Jim, I thought this post of yours is great. And it has sparked me into some lateral mullings that may be relevant here. I do a lot of work with public servants or civil servants, as they are termed elsewhere. Now often these people are required to defend and explain certain policy decisions that come down from on high. From their political masters. Some of these policies are termed 'red wine' policies because they were cooked up between politicians and their advisors over a red wine after a too long day. Which means they are virtually undefendable. However because of the nature of governance of the system and who is to whom etc, many of the people I work with somehow manage despite their own inclinations to develop a OK spin on what is otherwise not a good idea. They can also insinuate their own good ideas to ameliorate the otherwise loathsome effects of the policy decisions. That is they can make them work. Now this takes heaps of time, eats into budgets and causes many of the problems around the place. Not least of which is when the politician realises their error some months/years away and then sets about changing it with nary a 'sorry' or an 'oops' for the earlier snafu. So then the busy beavers have to set about finding a way to proceed with this new problem. The old way which we have been trying to sell for some time, which you haven't been buying - is now being superceded - and please believe us this time. Credibility becomes the major problem followed by cynacism. People in ENRON and listening to ENRON are coming to grips with things like this in the US, HIH(Insurance) in Australia etc Anyway I am seeing these PR guys as a bit like these public servants. They are MJ's public servants who will always and continually try to pull his fat out of the fire. I think it is impossible for them to ask what I call double loop questions. Double lop questions are questions like 'Why am I doing this' asked in such a way in such a way that they don't come up with the answer 'Because he is the lord' but rather answers of more depth like 'Because I want to make the world a better place' which would then lead to an examination of the way a person is doing it with MJ. Anyway when reading your email I thought of the lifers in any organisation who have the job of defending the undefendable. If I think of them as lifers in MJs world or MJ's organisation I can access a bit of interesting data. A few years ago some research done locally showed that only 3% of public servants changed Departments during their career (apart from Name changes while they worked there). It also reminds me from a corporate point of view that when executives stuff up it is the foot soldiers that suffer. In one of our premier firms BHP executives bought as dud which costs 1.5 billion too much. Another dud was a refinery with untested (on a large scale) technology which cost a further 2.5 billion. All written off. Far outweighs the miniscule savings squeezed out from some of their employees. The executives lost nothing except a few bonuses one year. They then got out with great dollars and continue to work at the lucrative director end of town. They then merged with Billiotn and everyone made money from bonuses(except the employees). Despite any protestations by CW and co there is a lot more keeping people close to MJ than just the K and their lurv for MJ. About which much has been written here previously. Cheers Peter

Subject: Above post to you LA-ex:apols (nt) From: Peter Howie To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 16:47:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: This is explosive -- absolutely explosive From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 13:51:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is amazing stuff, John. For all Catweasel's idiocy about 'spin' this is it, this is the real spin-machine at work, the pathetic, futile efforts of Humpty Dumpty's best soldiers to figure out a way to put Humpty together again. It deserves a permanent place on EPO hands down. Amazing. Stories about M's personal life, in particular the interview with Mischler, can be handled easily by pointing out the by and large exemplary life he has led, especially compared to the extreme abuse visited on disciples by other 'masters'. In any area of comparison, M comes out far, far ahead. Very funny to see how Glen can think no further than hiding behind the relative weaknesses of all the other hypocrites running the guru scam. All the more so now, five years later, when the cult leader institution itself, if you can call it that, is rocking from scandal. There's not much currency these days in proving that one isn't as bad as a murderous pedophile like Sai Baba, is there? Anyway, even that doesn't work as Maharaji hasn't lived anything close to an 'exemplary' life, no 'by and large' nothing! Even the heavy drinking reported by Mishler at the time of the family break-up, and we have to assume exaggeration to beef up the drama of Mischler's tale, is understandable in terms of the incredible stress M was going through at the time, combined with his own need to live a normal life with its own growing pains and youth experiments. This is like a memorandum drawn up by some law clerk to show how, if need be, to best argue the case. This is, in fact, pretty much the tack the premies have taken with they tested the waters with their apologist sites. Unfortunately for them, those trial balloons exploded forcing the cult to retreat all over again. Why? Because the kind of superficial, spin-jobs (sorry, Cat, we're taking the word back. You never used it right anyway) Glen's proposing fall apart once people start actually discussing the issues and, try as the premies might to avoid them, discussions are inevitable, especially when the whole exercise is supposedly to clarify suspicions, historic grieavances and s-called 'misunderstandings'. People, even premies, want to talk. Once they start talking about the real Maharaji and start exploring the real facts about the man, he soon appears entirely indefensible. The story of the 707 can only be answered, in my view, by not hiding it, but freely admitting (if faced with questions on it by journalists) that Maharaji had the intention of creating a travelling headquarters, which is true, whereby he and a large group of initiators and organisation aides would move from country to country in an effort to spread Knowledge far and wide. The plan was therefore honorable, but was found to be unworkable in practice and was jettisoned in Maharaji's attempts to find the right formula to continue his work. Glen reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live character, can't recall who, whose shtick was being a pathological liar who never gave up, no matter how absurd and transparently untenable his position was -- um, yeah, that's the ticket! It was a ...a... a TRAVELLING HEADQUARTERS, yeah, that's it, that's the ticket! ... And, and there'd be all these instructors, you see ... It is worth saying that shortly after this he closed down the ashram system as being unworkable in the west, and spent two or more years in semi-retirement while he thought out how to go forward. As the New Yorker journalist points out in a riposte to the angry letters about the ashram at that time, he thinks it to M's credit that rather than get stuck in the old rut like so many other so-called gurus, M had the courage to change things, and in his case he 'got his sister back' as a result, as a functioning human being taking on a family role again and ceasing proslytising on M's behalf. This is a very positive point. No, Glen, it's a very pathetic one. Talk about accepting damanation with faint praise, these guy's are so desparate they're willing to concede these implied insults about how UNnormal premies are so long as they can think premiedom somehow just clears the bar as something not quite cult-like. Yes, we used to be non-entitites to our families. Yes, we used to proselytize like crazy. But, we're better now ... aren't we? The New Yorker reference must be to some emails or were they even posts to and from Kurt Andersen, David and Erika's brother who wrote a piece for the magazine that never ran. As he told me himself, he had to walk a very fine tightrope as he didn't want to piss off his premie siblings. It seems like David and Erika read it although neither Joe nor I, who both were interviewed for it and spoke with Kurt several times, ever saw the article. So the 707 can be seen as a wild but valid attempt to do things in a different way. Easy with those concessions, Glen! Wild? Where's that going, fella? :) What is more difficult to explain is the sumptiousness of the decor of the plane - gold-plated taps etc. When one internet person who worked on the plane claimed it had a diamond encrusted toilet seat, he says it as an exaggeration, but one senses the opulence was not far off . This we have to accept and shrug off - yes, M did want it appointed to very high standards of comfort, is our answer, but only because he would be living in this plane for most of his time. Now he sounds like some pr hack for a petulant movie star, figuring out how he's going to deal with some embarrassing sign of shlocky greed on his client's part. I get the sense that writing this kind of a memo -- something only the 'strongest' devotee should ever be tested with -- was a bit of a strange pleasure for Glen. Finally, after decades of suppressing his doubts it's his temporary service to articulate them, carefully remembering, of course, to attribute them to all those 'internet persons' who've made issues of all this garbage. Did you get to dress up as an ex, too, Glen? What did you wear? The ownership and funding of the project might cause further complications,, was it owned by EV-US? If not there could have been an illegality and Virgil needs consulting on where we stand on this. God, wouldn't it be something to read that correspondence! The ashram question is even more difficult to deal with. Many of the correspondents appear to feel they had been badly abused and taken advantage of, losing years of their life in something they were promised would be worthwhile and permanent, but was not. In particular, David Smith is criticised for what was seen as his inhunman disregard for personal feelings as he implemented (as it is understood) Maharaji's instructions to encourage married pwk's to end their relationships and move into the ashram. Most of all, constant reference is made to a meeting of ashram pwk's with M at Kissimee where he was understood to have said the ashram is permanent, its inmates are his chosen fast-track people, but at the same time impressed his 'divine' credentials by saying he could, if he wished, 'turn them all blue and make them fly'. Shortly after he closed the ashrams, leaving an enormous sense of let-down. What is asked for on the internet is for Maharaji to acknowledge what happened, and either explain it or apolgise for it. Sorry, but unless I'm completely imagining things, Glen is slipping perilously close to identifying with the enemy here. You can just feel it. He's not just mouthing other peoples' objections, he's marching in the parade himself, if only for a block or two. Too much, huh? But he's got it wrong a bit -- the 'turn them all blue' quote was something Maharaji said to everyone at one of the regular satsangs there. Reminding us how he really was the Lord of the Universe and certainly not bound by any so-called physical laws, he cautioned us that, if he wanted, he could turn everyone blue, lift them in the air and turn them upside down until they realized Knowledge. The ashram meeting was either that afternoon or the next day. We can of course point out that 1 - life in M's ashrams, even in those 'dark' days, as they are perceived, was respectful of the individual, beautiful and after all voluntary compared to the real abuse visited by almost all other so-called masters on their devotees. There's that crazy desparation again, trying to justify the trip in these terms. Too funny! :) 2. it was again an experiment where M was trying for the first time to bring the traditional way K was taught and practised to the west. He found it did not work but only by trial and error, and then had the courage to abandon it, in effect to cut his losses, even knowing this would cause pain to those who had become reliant on the ashram system. Clearly, even Glen got caught up in some minimal expectation of reasonablness and minimal accountability in Maharaji. Perhaps he thought Maharaji might really be interested in conceding something here -- LIKE the 'pain'. Maybe he forgot what kind of selfish coward he was working for. Or maybe, unlike Maharaji, Glen didn't think thise through well enough to realize that if Maharaji ever did make these kinds of apologies, his entire authority would collapse without question. Damned if he does, damnded if he doesn't. Maybe Glen didn't see that -- or maybe, just maybe, Glen didn't care. Maybe he just wanted himself to urge Maharaji to say something real for a change. Just speculating ... Now all this experimentation has led to what we have today, a way of spreading Knowledge which combines efficiency with humanity. If some people resent being 'trapped' in the ashram at that time, it is regrettable, but it was their free choice. And far from blighting careers, etc, a few years in a monastic environment, dedicated to the inner beauty, cannot be claimed to be time lost or wasted; it has another value which ought to be given some credence. Here's Glen snapping back into full-on bullshit apologist mode. I swear I see a difference between this last paragraph and the one before it. It's like reading Pravda in the last days of the Soviet Union. The only real answer to this is that M himself lent his full authority to persuading people to adopt this lifestyle, which did come close to a negation of personal liberty and choice, and this has led to strong resentment against him personally. It is as if they want him to acknowledge that he may however unintentionally have misled them, and even apologise. I do not see how he could do this as 1. fundamentally it is their own misunderstanding that caused their problem, and 2. there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising. Now this is hilarious! Glen swings so quickly through these two disparate 'reasons' it's almost a joke. It's as if the first reason is the set up and the second the punch line. What a guy! But it might be an effective way to neutralise this violent feeling for M in some way to address it. If this sting is drawn, much of the rest of the Internet criticism would begin to deflate. Yes, Glen, come on, admit it, man, you just want to see somethinhg happen, no? Just goes to show that inside every premie is a closet ex just crying to be rescued. The pwk defenders of M in the correspondence make matters worse with their intemperate devotional righteous anger. Even Linda Gross does us a disservice by allowing herself to be reported as saying words to the effect that 'you will not get your questions answered unless you give him the respect he deserves', which led to much predictable derision. Ouch, eh Linda? This refers to something Linda must have said to me back when she was president of Elan Vital and I'd contacted her trying to reach Maharaji. She (mistakenly?) became quite friendly with me and several times conceded that I had some valid questions and concerns. She even tried to get Maharaji to talk with me, leaving messages to that effect with certain nameless dignataries even higher-placed than herself. I guess I was getting impatient at some point and these words were probably her caution to me that I won't get anything without patience. Of course, she herself stopped waiting for any sort of answer soon after. Maharaji had stonewalled both of us.

Subject: peter Howie - Channelling CW From: Peter Howie To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 17:04:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Jim - I'm going to try to channel CW and I'll probably include a few unstated thoughts in the process as well. This was in response to your opening line. The rest is great by the way. CW via PH Ahh! Whingers and whiners all. get a life. This stuf, if it is credible, and coming from old uncle you-know-who there may be some doubt, is years old and written by a couple of cretins considering what lame stuff they might get up to in 'the name of MH'. This is exactly what I've been trying to tell you thick heads for years. People dream up ideas, then throw in their own ideas about what MJ wants and then try and say that their ideas are all coming from the lord. Then they act in this unilateral manner and MJ cops all the blame. Get it through your heads - there is only you and him. Right here, right in front of everyone, where does MJ appear in all this stuff. You write this as though it was MJ saying it. MJ hasn't said it. MJ hasn't approved it. MJ wouldn't know anything about it. So this is typical forum behaviour - take what someone else says, give greater credibility than it deserves, add endless inuendo, supposition and inference and then regurgitate it up as fact. HAH! Losers. This will probably be referred to for years to come and probably make to the EPO site. What a bunch of tossers. How about some people being concerned about people not seeing and appreciating the person they love and adore in a good light? Is any protection of MJ and his work and good name from a PR point of view meant to be evil and the work of soon to be exes? Can't MJ plan his campaign. I mean in Australia they are considering legislation to limit the marketing of fast food because of its effects on health and eating patterns. Why don't you get on this band wagon. I mean more people die of heart disease in Austrlaia each year than are probably premies in the world outside of India. etc, etc, etc NOTE: IT IS RATHER EASY TO DO AND GIVES ME SOME REAL INSIGHT INTO WHY CW ET AL HAS SUCH DIFFICULTY. ESPECIALLY AS I WAS IN THIS HEADSPACE FOR REAL FOR MANY YEARS. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Yes, exactly From: Jim To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 21:56:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's right, Pete. Cat's play must be that Glen Whittaker and Ros Sutton are just a couple of more rogue PAM's -- sorry, make that PAM Wannabes -- gumming up the works in the Hamster's love machine. Of course it is. :)

Subject: Brilliant, Peter/Channelling CW [nt] From: PatC To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 18:08:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Linda G's post to Jim From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 14:08:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim...I found this...I think it was posted in about '97. Also my reply. From Linda Gross Maharaji has asked me to point out the following; 1. He has not written anything on the internet. Anyone pretending to impersonate him should know that we will issue legal proceedings should we discover the culprit. 2. You should not expect any response to any of your questions unless you treat him with the respect he deserves. 3. You were given the greatest gift by Maharaji and you chose to turn against it. Your obvious sufferings are proof of the conse quences of your own actions. Mr Heller, you are a thoroughly disreputable person and should be ashamed of yourself. Maharaji has sacrificed his life to bring peace to anyone who asks for it. What have you ever done in your sad, miserable life? We would appreciate it if you would refrain from attempting to contact us again. The answer to all your problems lies within. Look there. Linda G I replied: 'Mr Heller, you are a thoroughly disreputable person and should be ashamed of yourself. Maharaji has sacrificed his life to bring peace to anyone who asks for it. What have you ever done in your sad, miserable life?' Mr Hellers rudeness is met with a similar riposte. Mr Heller, along with others it seems, seeks a way to express his anger and frustration (directed towards Maharaji) in this open forum. Because Maharaji proposes to exclude 'angry' people from any correspondence, Mr Heller speaks angrily here instead, from where he can evidently be loudly heard by all. Mr Heller asked for peace too. He, unlike many others, doesn't feel that Maharaji gave it to him. Mr Heller has, in his 'sad, miserable life' , sacrificed (apparently) eight years of it trying to find the peace, without success. He thinks Maharaji is 'disreputable' for misleading him. That is his standpoint . He is now a lawyer, and he speaks in the tones of one. I think a lot of the disrespectful tone should not be taken so seriously. What exactly is it that he is doing, or saying, that you think is so reprehensible? Does everybody have to swallow their doubts and tacitly agree with Maharaji in order to qualify for his Master-Class? Please explain.

Subject: Thanks, I'd forgotten From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 14:22:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I forgot about that. Well, at least no one could ever accuse me of being obsessed with this stuff. :) Hey, I wonder, did Maharaji really tell her to insult me like that? I'm honoured.

Subject: You have a sad, miserable life Jim From: Ddermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 14:50:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. You negative BASTARD. Ahhhh fucking hilarious post from Linda.....too much ....too much. :) -Dermot

Subject: Yeah, for sure. But how come ... From: JohnT To: Ddermot Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 03:09:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he's so damned funny? I bet that's what really bugs the Fat Rat. A sad miserable really humourous bastard on his case. Wicked, or what!

Subject: na, this is funny From: mitz To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 10:33:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I'm a gutless troll. Like my master, Prem Rawat, I have nothing to say but want lots of attention.

Subject: Yeah , you missed the whole point From: Ulf To: Ddermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 14:55:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No ,, you made some really great points , thanks for being here ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ulf

Subject: Dear Mr ''Whitewash'' Whittaker From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 13:10:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (First thanks John and Konni for this great document.) I'm sorry, Glen, but this makes you look like a cynical spin doctor. I was hoping to hear some sincerity in your words since I can't believe that you have changed all that much in the 20 odd years since I first met you. I was hoping that I had wrongly pinned the epithet ''Whitewash'' Whittaker on you but it seems that it fits you only too well. Of course I do sense your love for Rev Rawat but, when you wrote this, you were at least 50 and should have known better. It really is the most deceitful and cynical spin I've ever read. Stories about M's personal life, in particular the interview with Mischler, can be handled easily by pointing out the by and large exemplary life he has led, especially compared to the extreme abuse visited on disciples by other 'masters.' Exemplary life compared with other masters? Okay, it's true that he didn't molest little boys like Sai Baba....but what about the blondes? In any area of comparison, M comes out far, far ahead. Even the heavy drinking reported by Mishler at the time of the family break-up, and we have to assume exaggeration to beef up the drama of Mischler's tale, is understandable in terms of the incredible stress M was going through at the time, combined with his own need to live a normal life with its own growing pains and youth experiments. Fair enough, he was a confused youth in a strange culture. In my view that would immediately disqualify him as a ''master.'' That was when it should have been obvious to all, especially you who were an adult at the time, that the kid needed to ''live a normal life'' and give up the ''master'' BS game. Spin me another. That one didn't cut it. ''....life in M's ashrams, even in those 'dark' days, as they are perceived, was respectful of the individual, beautiful and after all voluntary compared to the real abuse visited by almost all other so-called masters on their devotees.'' This is the third time in as many paragraphs that you have said Rawat comes out looking better than the other ''masters.'' The trouble is that the socalled ''masters'' that you are comparing him with were all really trashy people. Sai Baba fiddling with little boys; Rajneesh fiddling with everyone to the point of death by AIDS. How about comparing Rawat's behavior with some ordinary decent folk and see how it looks then. It is as if they want him to acknowledge that he may however unintentionally have misled them, and even apologise. I do not see how he could do this as 1. fundamentally it is their own misunderstanding that caused their problem, and 2. there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising. Ah! Finally the truth: ''...there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising.'' Yep, you would be out of a job; Rawat would be sued penniless and the whole charade would be over. That's the bottom line.

Subject: Bbut Catweasle said [nt] From: Dermot To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 10:52:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EPO/ ex forums etc are just totally insignificant, irrelevant backwaters in the nether regions of cyberland. I dont understand. Why should they bother with PR reports and such like? It's really bafling....it's not like we are worthy of note or anything. :) I'd like to see the reports from then to now....that'd be interesting.....right down to the dismalnting of EV, the crappy new M web site etc. Cheers for the report Dermot

Subject: Actually texted post above...for what it's worth:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 10:53:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Damage Control From: Jennifer To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:17:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only real answer to this is that M himself lent his full authority to persuading people to adopt this lifestyle, which did come close to a negation of personal liberty and choice, and this has led to strong resentment against him personally. Well, hot damn! An actual admission of guilt on the part of Maharaji. Good going, Glen. It is as if they want him to acknowledge that he may however unintentionally have misled them, and even apologise. I do not see how he could do this as 1. fundamentally it is their own misunderstanding that caused their problem, and 2. there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising. Same old spin which does not make any sense: It's the premie's own fault for misunderstanding Maharaji when he said they needed to give their life over to them. What happened to your earlier statement? And of course, you must protect the bottom line at all costs. Thanks for posting this, John.

Subject: Re: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:02:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even the heavy drinking reported by Mishler at the time of the family break-up, and we have to assume exaggeration to beef up the drama of Mischler's tale, is understandable in terms of the incredible stress M was going through at the time, combined with his own need to live a normal life with its own growing pains and youth experiments. Explain that away? When none of us had the remotest idea at the time that it was going on, and would quite possibly have walked if we had? When Maharaji was continually and emphatically stating that Knowledge was everything to him, whilst strongly advocating the drug and alcohol-free ashram life? Give us a break!!! Christ!!!! Stories about M's personal life, in particular the interview with Mischler, can be handled easily by pointing out the by and large exemplary life he has led, especially compared to the extreme abuse visited on disciples by other 'masters'. One can't help wondering if Glen knew about the premie sex partners Maharaji had had when he wrote that. Probably not. He found it (the ashram system) did not work but only by trial and error, and then had the courage to abandon it, in effect to cut his losses, even knowing this would cause pain to those who had become reliant on the ashram system. Sorry, Glen, that just doesn't look good at all. He 'cut his losses, even knowing this would cause pain'. Why no apology, then, when it could have lessened the pain? How can one draw any conclusion other than Maharaji never, ever admitting to being wrong, for fear of losing his divine staus in premies' eyes? Even if it caused intense pain in some cases? How can one draw any conclusion except that he just didn't give a jot about the pain he caused? If some people resent being 'trapped' in the ashram at that time, it is regrettable, but it was their free choice. How free a choice is it, when you promise on receiving Knowledge to attend satsang, and in those satsangs delivered by Maharaji you hear constantly that you are effectively blowing it to some extent by not dedicating your life by moving into the ashram, particularly if you are single? It was Maharaji's continual message that it was the best place to be, for practising Knowledge, that resulted in so many moving in. He absolutely cannot abnegate responsibility for this. fundamentally it is their own misunderstanding that caused their problem I beg your pardon??? Misunderstanding of what, exactly? How can you say this, Glen? I categorically remember you too encouraging people to move into the ashram in England, but funnily enough don't see you acknowledging this or taking responsiblity for it either.. But it might be an effective way to neutralise this violent feeling for M in some way to address it. If this sting is drawn, much of the rest of the Internet criticism would begin to deflate. Too right, Glen, too right. But he didn't, did he? Nor did he publicly address the Jagdeo issue either, which I remember reading somewhere that you felt he should. Shouldn't you be asking yourself why? Or would that cause you to have to examine why he didn't, in both cases? And then you might have to look at some very uncomfortable things that will then cause you to reevaluate the last 30+ years of your life.......and admittedly, that's not an easy thing to do. Have you the courage, Glen? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 15:00:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How could anyone be accused of misunderstanding something they had utterly surrendered themselves to?, and furthermore surrendered under the direct implication that unless you were married (i.e. householder premie) then you had no reason NOT to surrender to ashram life,unless of course you were completely ruled by your mind that is, in which case you weren't even worthy of K and best crawl off somewhere quiet and die...what kind of FREE CHOICE IS THAT, or am I bongo , and just imagined that level of peer pressure??? OK maybe that was a little unfair, but the whole inference to the 'relative abusiveness of masters' is astonishing, and more than a little frightening...a bit like 'Animal Farm'..'all animals are created equal,but some are more equal than others'... All Masters are abusive but some are less abusive than others???? Why would a Master of Love and Humanity resort to abuse to get his point across...beats me; in fact, WORRIES me greatly that this whole trip has still got the potential to upset me so much.. I know there are some crazy postings on this Forum, but there's also a lot of real care and understanding, a rather underspent currency imho

Subject: Re: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:02:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: my take From: John Macgregor To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 09:31:50 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: This report on ex-premie internet activity is IMO a fairly ‘difficult’ document for EV, and for Maharaji: • The criticism of M is refreshing, so far as it goes - and will do little for Glen’s career prospects: “David Smith...implemented (as it is understood) Maharaji's instructions to encourage married pwk's to end their relationships and move into the ashram.” “The only real answer to this is that M himself lent his full authority to persuading people to adopt this lifestyle, which did come close to a negation of personal liberty and choice...” “...the 707 can be seen as a wild but valid attempt to do things in a different way.” “What is more difficult to explain is the sumptiousness of the decor of the plane - gold-plated taps etc.” (However what is striking is a failure to draw reasonable conclusions from those observations.) • The criticism of Linda Gross will no doubt make for some difficult conversations on the next international PR team conference call. • Written acknowledgement from Glen, a senior EV official working at the international level, that EV may face a legal liability for its past activities may put EV’s lawyers into a flurry - and some ex-premies into thinking mode: “The ownership and funding of the project might cause further complications, was it owned by EV-US? If not there could have been an illegality and Virgil needs consulting...” (Virgil = EV’s international lawyer.) “It is as if they want him to acknowledge that he may however unintentionally have misled them, and even apologise. I do not see how he could do this as...there might be claims for some kind of compensation arising.” • Perhaps most significantly of all, the doc tells us that M was warned several years ago that the ’Internet’ situation could get out of control (as indeed it now has), and that he needed to tackle it: “...these concerns will need addressing at some point, one feels, they are so strongly expressed and felt, they will not go away. If they, and particularly the second [EPO and the forum], are ignored, they will continue to fester as an ever-present source of potential damage to M's present work.“ “But it might be an effective way to neutralise this violent feeling for M in some way to address it. If this sting is drawn, much of the rest of the Internet criticism would begin to deflate.” Ros Sutton - International PR Team boss - who received and presumably commissioned this report, was something of a ‘supremo’ in the PR area: there wasn’t much of a ‘team’ in today’s sense. And Ros reported directly to Maharaji. So it’s highly likely that Glen’s suggestion that M face the music was relayed to M. Four or five years later - nothing. The silence grows more deafening with every passing month. Best Regards, John

Subject: To John re-'Deafening silence..' From: AV To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:09:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that J, If statements from EV ever do emerge, (five years is a long pause for breath, wouldn't you say?)...I wonder how it will effect those pwk's who are oblivious to the internet revelations etc. etc. A bit like the naughty kid who runs into the class shouting 'I didn't do it, I didn't do it...!'... to which everyone replies 'didn't do WHAT??????' BTW I don't think the ashram issue is the only 'bete noire' of EV, it just represents a convenient line in the sand, and convenient debating point as the issues are reasonably clearly defined. What is of greater importance IMHO and a long term psycological issue, was brought into the light by Glen's remark about the benefits of taking time out for a period of ashram life (approx. quote).. if those were the reasons, I see no harm in that, but was that ever the motivation? Certainly in early days it was more an issue that everyone with K, elevated by their first faltering footsteps into a path of inner mysticism, were swept up on a messianic tide of emotion around M where there was an incredible compulsion (albeit delivered within the blissful wrappings of formal satsang), to devote one's life, mind body and soul to M. Perhaps inner beauty was an attractive side effect one hoped for, but surely the emphasis on ashram life was all about the need to recognise the OPPORTUNITY IN THIS LIFETIME TO EXPERIENCE THE GIFT OF DEVOTION TO THE LIVING PERFECT MASTER. The foundations of EV cannot be sidestepped.. even at Nottm, there was a video called 'ADORATION OF THE MASTER'.. and if anybody wants to adore a master thats their own private business,period. what catches in my throat is the attempt to make the whole thing look like some cool upper middle class way of bringing about world peace, and the day I start giving up my holidays to work in a homeless shelter soup kitchen or start giving chunks of money to humanitarian organisations is the day I will feel qualified in talking about world peace. K has only ever been about changing peoples concious perception of theirselves , their 'inner world' and their relationship to their Master. How can you bring about world peace if you constantly refer to the world as an illusion? put me staight someone if I've got this wrong, but you don't try and change illusions, you ignore them. (btw Livia, was it you who said your partner thought premies in a video looked mentally ill? Not much fun living in an illusion is it?)

Subject: silence grows more deafening From: mitz To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 10:51:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not if you had listened to what he said last week it isn't do you honestly believe he's going to come here and talk to you, write you a letter, make a radio broadcast...what? it's all about self importance as far as I can see, delusions of it what glen also said last week is a fuck site more interesting than what he said five years ago, catch up dude

Subject: fine-let's hear it. From: janet To: mitz Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:50:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bring it.

Subject: to Mitz From: AV To: mitz Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 11:16:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what DID Glen say then?

Subject: Raja Ji's blast from the past From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 04:49:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check out how Raja Ji believes we are all nobodies, how we all should lose our personalities and that really our sole aim in life is to attend as many festivals/programs as possible. Seems to me that Raja Ji has achieved this happy state of affairs! :) Excerpts of satsang given by Raja Ji (now known as Rajaji Rawat) from the Guru Puja Festival, Miami Beach, Fla - July 31, 1977 Printed in 'Divine Times' Vol 7, Number 4 'Guru Puja Special' June/July 1978. And that was so beautiful. Because if you start thinking about these things (desire etc), it obviously can get very complicated. But the easiest way out of it is just surrender. Just let go. Just let it happen. Flow in that Love and surrender to his (Maharaji's) feet. Surrender yourself to him. And the moment you surrender, everything is beautiful. Because 'surrendering' itself means you don't have a personality, you have lost yourself, you are one. ...... And that is what we have to realize. In this world we have two choices: either to go the way of the world, or to be in Maharaj Ji's world. It's like the darshan line was happening, and it was really beautiful. Every premie comes and does pranam, and the connection happens, and goes, and it really flows. But we have to realize the most important thing is to surrender. In Indian mythology, 'Oh, Guru Maharaji Ji, without your Grace even leaves cannot move. Even the leaf doesn't move without your Grace.' And how is it we move from you even sometimes? It is all destined. It is already programmed to happen that way. And so all we can really do is really surrender and meditate in our lives, really realize the importance of meditation, really realize the importance of satsang. It is that connection that joins me and my Guru Maharaj Ji. There is no middle dogs, big dogs or small dogs, one or two. There is Guru Maharaj Ji and his devotees, and that connection that joins. Then we have to realize in our lives the importance of satsang, that is a constant company of Truth that we need. .... And for that we have to really meditate, because that's the only way that we can really see who Maharaj Ji is. That's the only way. The only connection that joins me and Guru Maharaj Ji is that meditation. And that's what you really have to do: satsang, service and meditation. The moment we start doing that, and surrender, everything really starts happening for us. The same life we used to live a long time ago - something blessed comes it is. A certain spark of that Love comes in. .... And as powerful as that Love is, the mind is as powerful. Mind is there inventing its games, and the only thing we can really surrender our mind, lose our personality. And the moment we lose our personality completely, it's beautiful, because we have entered the world of Guru Maharaj Ji. And in Guru Maharaj Ji's world, all we really have to do is get rid of the mind, get rid of all the concepts, really be open. Just our being open is beautiful, will really help us. .... And Maharaj Ji said once that if he was a devotee of the Perfect Master, all he would do in his life is one thing: to get ready so that he could have darshan. He would spend all the time, all he had, to get ready for the next program. And if we had just a spark of the devotion he has towards his Guru Maharaj Ji, we'll be okay. Because like he said, Hans Jayanti, where it's going to be - that's a surprise. Life is full of small surprises, as a matter of fact, and you have to just be ready for the next Hans Jayanti wherever it's going to happen. ... We have this Knowledge. He has done his thing. He has given us this Knowledge. We asked for it. Now it's our turn to repay him by our devotion and surrender to him. And once we start doing that, once we start doing that, once we start flowing in that process of really having that devotion towards him, really surrendering towards him, that Grace will start to flow, that Grace will automatically...It's like the moment we take that step, the Grace starts coming. There's plenty of it where it comes from, so all we really have to do is that one primary step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, towards the Lord, and really realize in our lives our purpose of being here. Because if you say, 'Well, Maharaj Ji has a purpose of being here,' to tell you the truth, we have a purpose of being here too; we are, after all, nobodies. But we are devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji, and that a pretty good title because it's a pretty exclusive item in the world these days. And so we have to play our part really well. Our part is just to be good devotees, and that's to do satsang, service and meditation, and come to the festivals, like Maharaj Ji said. .... Phew!!!

Subject: Thanks, Opie - another good doc for EPO? [nt] From: PatC To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 13:27:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: JM-great quotes for EPO....Best Of...nt From: la-ex To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 07:54:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: New newage From: AV To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 19:25:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sayings revisited...(tongue in cheek and very lighthearted).. 1. When two or more are gathered in my name , I will be there also, However, when two or more THOUSAND are gathered in my name, maybe someone should ticket the event. 2. Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven , and all else will be added unto you; however , a regular pay check and a roof over your head sure helps ease the pain... 3. Love one another with a pure heart, fervently (St.John)...right on John, IMHO 4. If you are going thru' a crisis of faith, then you have no problem, because you've already recognised the importance of faith.. 5. There is nothing that cannot be healed, but the healing may take a form which we may not immediately recognise... 6. If you didn't like what was on the menu for today, don't despair, tommorrow there's a new menu Happy Easter, A time of New Beginnings

Subject: Zen thoughts From: Opie To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 04:09:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV Here are some more tongue in cheek stuff - apologies to those who have seen this before. You know who you are :) Zen Thoughts A day without sunshine is like, night. On the other hand, you have different fingers. I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Honk if you love peace and quiet. Remember, half the people you know are below average. He who laughs last thinks slowest. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol. Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have. Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your week. A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. Change is inevitable, except from vending machines. Get a new car for your spouse. It'll be a great trade! Plan to be spontaneous tomorrow. Always try to be modest, and be proud of it! If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments. How many of you believe in telekinesis? Raise my hand... OK, so what's the speed of dark? Save the whales. Collect the whole set. How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. What happens if you get scared half to death twice? I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out. I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder. Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened.

Subject: Re: Zen bones Zen bones Zen...dry bones From: AV To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 06:55:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx Opie, I'll be dining out on those for a good while!! also..... If you wake up in the middle of the night an' yo' woman dun gone, then u know Mr. Blues dun called.. But if you wake up in the middle o' the night and find a horses head in her place....yo'all know Mr.Mafia dun paid yo' a call.... an'if yo' wake up in the middle of the night an' your woman dun gone and a large fish is in her place with an apple in its mouth an' wearing a bowler hat... you can bet yo'sorry as Mr. Surrealist dun paid yo' a call... (to be said in low slow drawl over a walking bass line, preferably in saturated black and white, and with a telefone voice filter in place...) er... helicopters can't fly , they are so ugly the earth repells them... An optomist is a pessimist who hasn't been given the facts.. ...a dyslexic amnesiac atheist woke up up in a blind panic questioning the existence of Dog.... an' if you enjoyed the show half as much as we did, then we enjoyed the show twice as much as you did.... (drum roll + cheap cymbal crash f/x)

Subject: Today is . . . From: Postie :) To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 23:22:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Today is the last day of the first of your life. Do unto others before they do unto you. F * * * ing is not Jesus' middle name. If you see Buddha on the path, ask him where the good restaurants are 'cause the dude surely looks like he would know. Sant Postie Ji The 8,000 year old disfunctional alcoholic as channeled by Richard.

Subject: Re: Today is . . . From: AV To: Postie :) Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 03:23:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd rather have a full bottle in front'a me than a full frontal lobotomy..... Q. How do you get an evangelist offa your doorstep??? A. Ya pay for the pizzas... ((((((mmmmmmmmm c-r-i-s-p-y))))) Right thought.....right action....write your name on the bottom of this cheque....

Subject: orange girl From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 09:24:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody remember an American premie woman with red hair (I think) who ate nothing but oranges? She was extremely neurotic, probably anorexic if I think about it, and totally, utterly and obsessively fixated on Maharaji. I shared a tent with her in India (1972) and saw her around many times after that. I've often wondered what happened to her. Love, Livia

Subject: you probably mean From: janet schwartz To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 00:55:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: jan buchalter from new york city. very short, very tiny, always rolling her head and compulsively cracking her neck? real direct gaze if she looked at you, had that new york quickness about her. she's just as obsessed as ever. follows the fatboy all over the world.i watched her phone him repeatedly one night in denver. when he finally took the call, he shut her down cold. i was there watching in the same room. wonder what it will be like when she finally realizes what all the experiences over the years have been trying to tell her. I slept in her manhattan home apt once. too bad she threw her intelligence away on this. she had a great base of affluence from which to go into life. she could have been a real carreer notable in the City if she had'nt gotten detoured into this. she's thrown her entire adult life away chasing fatrat. wonder when she's gonna realize it.

Subject: Re: you probably mean From: Livia To: janet schwartz Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 15:25:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep that was the one. Jan. It's coming back to me. Very interesting what you say about her, and terribly, terribly sad that she's still in the same place. I kind of thought she still would be. She will need some serious help one day. With love, Livia

Subject: sorry! From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 12:45:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, sorry, nothing to do with orange girl..I posted a reply to you on the 'mindset' thread below...forgot to address it to you..phased etc. btw...if you get a chance , play 'learning to fly' by Tom Petty really loud!!!!!! thatworx2 :~) mmmmmmmmmm

Subject: Amaroo updated From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:58:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: Amaroo registration and accommodation update Date: 3/28/2002 12:12:28 AM Eastern Standard Time From:    mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Please Note: At times Rapid Communication may send out information via e-mail. If your personal information should change, you need to save this announcement, which contains the link to update that information. You may also request to receive the Satellite Broadcast Schedule by clicking on the 'To unsubscribe/change profile:' link below. Thank you. Warm Regards, The Rapid Communication Team Update on the Amaroo website (www.Amaroo.org) and on Regonline There has been a wonderful, enthusiastic response to tent accommodation for this event. This has booked out all the pioneer tents and means new pioneer tent bookings cannot be accommodated. New accommodation category for new bookings There have been many requests to provide more on site accommodation. Using all the existing equipment an additional category of accommodation called Blue Gum is being offered. This will be available for bookings from Wednesday March 27th until Sunday April 7th for new bookings. Blue Gum camping will include: A two room tent without power A double bed Sheets Doona/duvet    Blankets Pillows        Towels It does not include Airport transfers The cost including registration is:    Single    (including registration)    US$630    per person    Double (including registration)    US$440    per person If you have already registered and wish to avail of this option please email your name, confirmation number and choice of either Single or Double Blue Gum accommodation. If you book Double please provide the name of your tent mate. We will assume that you want this payment processed to the same credit card you used to register unless you advise otherwise. For Double bookings please make sure that you identify your tent mate and that your tent mate also registers for a Blue Gum double. Exiting twin pioneer bookings A number of people have booked a pioneer twin but their partner has not registered or booked yet. To accommodate these people the pioneer twin option is reopening from Wednesday March 27th until Sunday March 31st to allow the second person in each of these tents to register. Unfortunately we are unable to accept new pioneer bookings in this period.  If new bookings are attempted, they will be automatically processed but subsequently will be cancelled and refunded. Thank you for your cooperation. Day registration Registration to attend the event but not stay on site will also be extended to April 7th.  Everyone is encouraged to register before they come to the event to keep the waiting and queuing time as short as possible and avoid delays.  On-site registration is provided on April 17th and 18th from 9am to 5pm for people unable to find a way to register via the web. Thank you.

Subject: Sounds like hell to me From: Roger eDrek To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 01:16:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gawd, how I hated each and every damn 'event' that I went to for nearly 25 fucking years. The cheery blurbs about how wonderful everything was going to be and how this program was going to be the 'most important of all time'. And how 'they', the 'Team', could sell the most lame and miserable conditions as the most fantastic and wonderful accommodations, all while Guru Fatso basked in his pampered powdered nose priveledge private compound. And then, get this, Maharaji would have the audacity to complain how difficult his life really was and how we, the Premies, shouldn't even bother with saving for our retirement years and how we, the Premies, shouldn't go to school and shouldn't care about careers or families and children and everything that is LIFE. What a fucking bag of shit, it was! So, fuck you Deborah. Yeah, I'm going off topic here because you're fudging things up. I really don't know you, but I do know these other people and I believe and trust them. I think that you are nothing but a huge drama-queen and we've seen enough of your kind around here to last a lifetime or two. Why don't you and Catweasel and all your other good buddies just pay for your own forum and you can talk about whatever the hell you want to. I think that you're just another fucking crazy and it's time to let the spotlight shine where it needs to and that's on Maharaji and all his bullshit like Amaroo.

Subject: Ditto, amen and hallelujah, Rog [nt] From: PatC To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 20:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And did you see how expensive? From: Sulla To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 10:16:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amaroo was and is an impossible dream for so many premies. And for one who could have the 'incredible grace' to go without money, one thousand more didn't go and will never have the opportunity.

Subject: Holi From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:26:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the phase of the moon, it's Holi time. I really enjoyed Holi for it's human Easter Egg and world's largest wet T-shirt gathering. It was a festive, psychedelic and erotic atmosphere. At the first Western Holi on Key Biscayne, Florida March 1974, I had an interesting experience. As a Divine Times photographer, I was hanging around in the secure area changing film. The door to the travel trailer slammed open and out ran GMJ. As he ran towards me, he said 'Excuse me, Mata Ji is chasing me!' and flew by. The trailer door flew open again and there stood Mata Ji with her face covered in red Holi powder. I can only conclude that GMJ had shoved her face in it. She stood there shreiking 'Maharaji, come here!!!' obviously upset. As GMJ ran away, he was yelling 'Noooo, Mata Ji, noooo.' On that trip I had heard about Marolyn and concluded that the Mata Ji had found out and ladhu had hit the Holy Family fan. This last was an intuitive assumption on my part but history has shown it to be accurate. As Holi play progressed, GMJ stood on a semi-truck trailer bed along with a few mahatmas. I strategicly positioned myself sitting on the corner of the trailer to take photos. At one point, a can of spray Silly String rolled across to me. I picked it up and, after the previous close encounter, thinking I was hanging with my pal GMJ, I shot him with the Silly String. As the string arched through the air, GMJ slowly turned towards me and blasted me with the gun. Everything went slow motion, I sort of collapsed/pranamed onto the trailer bed and he walked over and blasted my back with the gun. Here's the odd part. As I lay there soaking wet and in 'such bliss' having been singled out by my Lord, I had a regression to infancy and imagined I was a child laying there in a wet diaper. A few days later I was visiting my family and it took everything I could muster to carry on a conversation. Many years later I was doing a cathartic breathing process called Rebirthing. That process was not so much about regression but one would have experiences similar to my close encouter of the Holi kind. Going in, I believed that M was omniscient so I assume I was psychologicly primed for and had a spontaneous regression of sorts. Similar to the breakdowns that occured in darshan lines. Expecting that M was all knowing made it easy to release deep feelings. Here are some Holi links for interest and amusement. Play Holi: http://send.greetings.yahoo.com/greet/send?.id=152028023&.catu=/browse/Holidays/Holi/ Holi email greeting cards: http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Holi/ History of Holi and more cards: http://www.holihangama.com/holi/history/index.html Holi, Holi, Holi time! 64.45.46.159/photo/holi6.gif

Subject: Re: Holi-I miss having Holi... From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 01:45:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read the site you linked to richard --- too bad. theydidn't give the whole legend of Prahlad. They left out the boon of the king supposedly not being able to be killed day or night, indoors or out, by man nor beast --- and his heating the metal pillar white hot, and asking prahlad if his lord was in everything, (prahlad said yes) asking him if his lord was in the glowing pillar (prahlad said yes) and his father commanding him to 'embrace the pillar and thereby embrace his Lord, then, sneering. they left out the part about the pillar exploding when prahlad moved to embrace it, and Vishnu appearing in a form half man and half lion, on the steps of the porch neither indoors nor out, at the instant before sunset, neither day nor night, and devouring the king alive dragged over his knee. they left out the really cool part even maharaji never told us:: the first HOli was a spontaneous food fight!!! yes! the whole palace was so released by the ravaging of the cruel King, they didn't know where to put all that energy, and the sideboard was laid with all kinds of delicacies for the King's supper, which of course he would never eat again, but the littler kids started it by throwing handfuls of berries (which stained) and yogurt (in the traditon of Krishna and the gopies and the yogurt pots) and juices at each other, and soon everyone was wildly going at it in the mélée, and it didn't end until all the food was gone, hurled at one or another. It was, shall we say, an intense release of freedom. I didn't leran this in DLM. I had to go to the Krishna Temple to learn the real history. There, they do it with real food. I think my favorite Holi of all times was the ORangle Bowl in Miami, in 1979. I loved the completely insane convening of massing in pure whites to be blasted into stoned transcendency and wander out into the city of MIami at the end in plastered tie dye, not caring *what* the locals thought of our blown away demeanor. and if you walked into the ocean, your stained whites would set in the salt water and you'd have them to wear forever. or at least until the next time. :) yah...we're missing something, definitely. hmmmm... ya know, I live on venice beach. now THERE'S a place just crazy enough that we could resurrect the tradition down here at the beach every year. they could never stop us. it's our religious freedom of expression. i could just see the LAPD rolling out their riot squads and getting plastered in yogurt and fruit juice in the crossfire as we heedlessly enveloped them in the fun. and the hindi community would roar in indignation if arrests were made for celebrating Holi. it would become an issue too controversial to prosecute. hmmmmm.... I'm getting an idea , here.... hee hee.

Subject: Re: Holi-I miss having Holi... From: Kevlar To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 15:14:20 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Wow, thats a cool story, Janet. I liked the 'not indoors or outdoors, not day or night' part the best. Right now I'm listening to Elliot Smith on Sunday afternoon, life is good. I can make it to Venice! Quicklike. Are you monitors putting this together? Marshall=Kevlar + Southern California =? Almost there!

Subject: Re: Holi From: Anandaji To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 00:27:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, Richard -- I did rebirthing once. I had a similar experience to yours. I regressed to the dark calm of the womb, then saw the delivery room, then a nursury. I felt an ache in my stomach. I became very scared. I saw nurses standing around with clip boards. Later I realized that I had been hungry and had no way of communicating, but I bet I was crying. Suddenly, I became very peaceful. When I came out of the rebirthing session all I could think about was a chocolate malt. I headed right to a restaurant and savored it like never before or since. Pretty amazing.

Subject: Re: Holi From: Mercedes To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 19:34:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, who knows, but I feel these days that our former guru was not kind to us in his actions, yeah we attributed him powers beyond human and put up with abuse so I am not surprised that his offender behaviour triggered you into some memory or something. Anyway it's good to read your thoughts, I am not reading the forum so much these days. Mercedes :)

Subject: Re: Holi Wet T - Shirt Batman!!! From: Marshall/Kevlar To: Mercedes Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 12:44:12 (EST) Email Address: huh? Message: Hi, I, for one am having a very strange transitional phase right now. I noticed the full moon in the middle of the strangenes and said(to myself), hmmm, then...later(the same day/night)... I realized that that day, of all days, last Wednesday actually, was the exact to the day one year anniversary of a personal drama/trauma that has finally been processed(nearly). Trippy. Regarding fun lovin' little big M and Holi 'prank It's been reported here by many that while 'testing'(gawd I love quotation marks and ( )'s) the water guns at DECA. Little Big M, hurt(pretty badly), various gopi's and gawkers! Oooooops. By the way... Richard, good point about the 'world's largest wet t-shirt contest'! Gotta Love it!! So much repression, So much revisionism! Check out www.pervertedhornyholihippiefreaks.com for the best 'pics' Good Day All! Marshall (A.K.A. Kevlar)

Subject: Re: Holi Wet T - Shirt Batman!!! From: Richard To: Marshall/Kevlar Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 12:59:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Holi really took on the intensity of some Pagan rite of Spring with pulsing music and perfumed colored water. Had we sacrificed virgins we may have turned M into Pan in a flash. :) Marshall, I was one of those who was hurt during water cannon practice at DECA. At the time I thought, oh well, the closer to the fire the hotter it is or, similarly, only in the eye of the hurricane is there calm but just outside the calm eye are the fiercest winds. Or some other such cosmic rationalization. Now I see M was just a reckless and irresponsible adult child having a lark. If he truly believed that we were just his 'creatures' to toy with, that is even more terrifying.

Subject: Ex-premies are whiners From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 15:08:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was posted on the premie forum, Life is Great. I also think the ashram woe stories are repulsive after twenty years. I am not alone in this opinion. Believe me. The other night I was talking on the phone and this topic came up. We both agreed on the following: Didn't the ashram premies live in nice to extragant homes without paying rent? Didn't they earn their keep without needing to find a job, while taking care of babies, trying to get to programs on grace rather than money handed out by the community coordinator. Didn't some of the ashram premies get 'priviledged meetings'? Didn't they get darshan related service, ie DECA, RESIDENCE, etc? Any comments? I loved the bit about living ''rent free.'' Don't you? It was actually posted by the new revised Deborah.

Subject: Pat, why repost this crap? From: Observer To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:49:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah has urinated her insane, infantile rantings extensively into Lifes Grate. The pathetic handful of premies who frequent that place are drinking her urine and LG has become a dying cesspool, floating off into the sea of dying chat boards, linked nowhere. Let it die; avoid LG and the virus that is there; don't drink the putrid water, and just ignore the criminally insane. But most of all, please don't bring her delusional crap over here.

Subject: Here's why From: Sir Dave To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 22:09:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You get full marks for descriptive writing! I think that it was relevant to put it here on this forum. Not only could you excercise your literary talent but also it shines light into dark corners.

Subject: Re: Pat, why repost this crap? From: CD To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 22:09:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >The pathetic handful of premies who frequent that place You are a typical ass. Its exactely your kind that has made a mess of LG recently. CD

Subject: I think From: Sir Dave To: CD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 22:13:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the only way for the premieforum to be as you'd want it would be to have it password protected. It's a sitting target for ex-premies and that's not going to change.

Subject: Who wants it to change? From: Sharpshooter To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 10:35:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LG isn't a sitting target. Not from our perspective. It's a shooting range. With rabid exes the targets. I love target practice! Send over your best rabble, someone's always on duty with a well oiled 303.

Subject: silver hammer went down on the exes head From: Dermot - Bang , bang Fakiranands To: Sharpshooter Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 11:07:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bang, bang Fakiranands silver hammer went down and the ex was- DEAD:) .......ahhh, sticks and stones may hurt my bones but metaphors don't phase me.

Subject: Hi Dermot, don't forget that sharpshooter From: Jethro To: Dermot - Bang , bang Fakiranands Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 13:47:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the rest of the ring are into these things as well as protecting paedophilles and changing history. Their human senses have long been numbed to reality. alll the best jethro

Subject: Hi Jeth... From: Dermot To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 15:59:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....well I hope Sharpshooter was joking,,,,,then again,you never know:) Best wishes to you too, Jethro -Dermot

Subject: LG intent From: CD To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 23:19:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >It's a sitting target for ex-premies and that's not going to change. I have no intent of forcing LG into an exact formalism. It will be closed down before it is password protected. I maintain LG for the eventual suprises when people have something positive to express and share that comes from their own revelation the Life is Great. I know and don't care that LG is a sitting target. Thats the way it is. I can't swim against a riptide. But I know which direction to swim to survive and will continue to attempt to be a catalyst for better. Kinda like a patient parent that has to watch the child keep falling down until the day when the child walks a few steps. Only LG is not my child. I just happen to have the admin password and pay for it. CD

Subject: Re: Ex-premies are whiners From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:43:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If anyone has ever worked labouring in a Staffordshire pot bank (pottery) to hand over their wages to the ashram secretary every week, and slept on a hard wooden floor with only a sleeping bag for comfort and subsisted on low nutrition meals of overcooked rice (al soggy) and anihilated vegetables and spent their evenings selling Divine Times door-to-door - well, that might be luxury for someone in Afghanistan but not for most Western people. Did Deborah really write that post regarding the ashrams. If so, could you please put a link to it since I can't find it. Thanks.

Subject: Deborah's luxury ashrams From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 19:08:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Luxury! When I lived in Scunthorpe ashram we had to get up at 3.30 am, sing arti and then sit under our blankets for a 4 hour group meditation. Then we'd take a cold shower before eating a breakfast of last night's reheated gruel and lentil mush and then off we'd go to work 15 hours down t'coalmine. Then back home for more gruel and lentil mush followed by 3 hours sitting on the floor at the local church hall listening to Jagdeo. Anyone who tried to creep out would be immediately shipped off to Wolverhampton ashram with no remission. Then back to the ashram for arti and another 3 hours under the blanket. The ashram secretary would pace around the room and beat anyone caught nodding off with an iron beragon. Then 3 hours sleep before getting up to do it all over again. Revisionism or what!!! Love, Livia

Subject: Yer don't know yer born, lass From: E Bai Gum-Ladd To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 21:11:53 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: Eeee, you 'ad it easy. We 'ad to get up half an hour before we went t bed after doing' all night meditation sitting ont bed a nails, an then we were whipped by ashram secretary before goin' off t work up ut mill fer 18 hours with only an ashram packed lunch of home made rock and cardboard burgers (if we were lucky) an then we 'ad to walk back t ashram an sell 500 copies of Divine Times ont way before another whipping from ashram secretary and heavy satsang before we finally had our evening meal of charanamrit and arti flame. Eeee, yer tell that t these new premies today an they don't believe it.

Subject: Te he! Any more elaborations? [nt] From: Livia To: E Bai Gum-Ladd Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 08:57:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Ex-premies are whiners From: Here it is To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:02:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's about halfway though a post to Dermot. Sounds like Deb has no core...takes the shape of whatever container suits her and her agenda best. Luxury Living www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=14163.328270261670

Subject: Re: Ex-premies are whiners From: Voyeur To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:29:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you call sleeping under the kitchen table nice and extravagant! Sheeeesh!

Subject: New article on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:44:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where is Guru Maharaj Ji ? Fifth Estate Magazine - February 1974 (203) Including a pict of Fakiranand .....

Subject: Terrific. Thanks, J-M [nt] From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:09:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Maharaji Training transcript From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 08:14:33 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Below are notes taken from Maharaji’s talks during the Amaroo training which I attended in September 1999. I don’t believe this transcript is very remarkable. Its interest, IMO, may lie in its departure from what really happens in M-world. If you read it and knew nothing of the real dynamics, you’d probably be impressed. But it’s probably good to post for the record - and in the interests of breaking down the culture of ‘confidentiality’ which Maharaji has engendered. I had this doc scanned with OCR software, so there may be the odd typo from that, plus there are some typos in the paper copy. Personal meltdowns, divine tantrums and expletives have apparently been deleted. Regards, John NOTES FROM THE AMAROO TRAINING 18-23 SEPTEMBER 1999 PLEASE KEEP CONFIDENTIAL Joy of Service Do your service, whatever that service is because you want to. Because you can do it, because there is your chance, your opportunity to bring excellence that comes from a fulfilled life, to not just some ethereal thought, but something real and practical. And when something is done properly, the joy of that, you get to keep and enjoy. Nobody can take that away from you, You can't offer it to anybody. - The knowing that this was done properly and beautifully and the right way. There is a tremendous joy and pleasure in that and that you get. And that joy when it comes out whether it is making a program, an event possible, whether it is to talk about Knowledge to someone, maybe the end result is that more people come to Knowledge. The joy that that brings happens to be a very very special joy. Need for a team No one person can know all the answers. That's why there is a team. The deficiencies of one person can be made up. The team can accomplish what no one individual can. Whether its food, registration, stage, transport, video distribution, no one person call do it. There is a need for a team. For a long time there were teams but they were never acknowledged. If we can acknowledge the team, strengthen the team, then the team can thrive. When there's a trust, an understanding, a team, you have a great opportunity for experimenting, trial and error and nothing has to be a mistake. Individuality Individuals come in there, I'm the one who pushes individuality the most. But when you come as a team, that individuality has to drop, that has to go away. Because, what is best for the team, will be what is hopefully good for all the individuals too. As soon as the members of the team become individuals, you do not have a team anymore. When the football player says forget the coach and these other guys, I'm going to play my way, that's the end of the team. And these are people who have chosen football as their career. But they don't get to go outside the parameters set by the coach. Ok boss, that's what happening, Up until now, because of individual protection system, propagation has suffered. There is no longer any protection. Your protection is in synchronization with the team, that's your protection. It's simple. When did it get complicated'? When individuals wanted to be in the white shining armour. That's always when it gets complicated. If you want to be sitting on a white horse in shining armour, you are going to be in real trouble. In WWII, you know how many of those loose cannons got people killed? Off they'd go and people would get killed. In the Gulf War, they have taken that leadership issue away from the field. Everybody communicates with the main boss and the main boss says do that because the boss has the big, picture. You want to do service? There's only one way. Be a part of a team. Unanimous decisions You can reach unanimous decisions. If my objection will help the team, I make it, If my objection is only to impress somebody or because I don't like the person who made the proposal, then it won't work. But you are not visualizing the team at this point. When that transition happens, I will help the team. In a watch, a clock with all those moving parts, they are all different shapes, sizes, but they all come together to make that clock show the correct time, that's teamwork. The second hand doesn't say, I'm not moving. Or to impress everybody, I'm going to move really fast. Yes I have an objection but my objection is so trivial, it doesn't really matter. Teamwork really starts to happen when people start saying I retract my objection. Unanimity forces you to abandon those cages and look through other people’s eyes and listen through other people's ears, seeing things from other people's perspectives. It is a life enriching experience, no less. I wonder what he sees that I can't see. Leaders You don't need a team leader. The only reason you would need a team leader is abdication of responsibility. (Question: how do we avoid being leaders?) First of all you should realize the negatives of a leader. Why do people want a leader'? So they don't have to think. So they can blame somebody. So based on just those two issues, do you want to be a leader? All right. If those two issues are so intolerable to you, then even if they want you to be a leader, turn it back on them. What do you think? Start a process where they take responsibility. Everyone thinks his or her managers are full of it. Even if you have a fresh person coming in, within 7 days they're turning around and doing the same things everyone else is. Always be happy with the people you're going to work with. It's better to work with a small number of competent people, than a large number. (What if you're not happy with a person in your team?) How should a situation arise where you get stuck with a group of people you don't want? That means you allowed someone else to become a leader and tell you to work with a bunch of people you don't want to work with. Taking Responsibility There's only one way it's going to happen, you taking responsibility, not abdicating responsibility by saying let's elect a leader to fix everything. You have to take responsibility to change things. And that opportunity is in front of you, but you have to recognize it and you have to take it. Don't abdicate responsibility. At the same time don't sit there and hold onto your personality. It's a dance. Sometimes you have to step forward - sometimes YOU have to step back. If you feel something is wrong, say so. You can just say, I'm not comfortable. You think you can't say that? I don't know if you remember the bus analogy - the bus going from point A to point B breaks down. You've got a bunch of people in the bus; ten really healthy strong individuals, 5 people who are just 450 pounds each - eating chocolate, ice cream, 5 kids - running around, and there's some old people in the bus. The driver says the bus is fixed, but we need to push start it, the starter engine is broken. Who is going to push the bus? Ten healthy guys? Next question - what constitutes the team? Those fat people are not going to be pushing, how can they be part of the team? The idea basically is that they get off the bus and that helps - they're assisting. The ladies are keeping the 5 noisy kids out of the way. They are a team. All teams are at infancy stage. They're not even born yet. This is a slow attempt to start to coerce the consciousness of people to start taking responsibility. It will take awhile before you see a big effect. I'm making the effort because I believe in Knowledge, in the human potential. Professionalism What is so wrong with the idea of a professional premie? A premie who has love in his heart and the desire to serve and do it right. No compromises, with excellence, with great dedication, great devotion. Happy Family Syndrome. The Happy Family Syndrome is such a darkness - because it convolutes reality. Premies come to do service and they just want to be one big family. Not realizing that when they try to bring the family into the service, they bring all the problems of the family into the service - going behind people's backs - all the other problems. So we have to get everyone to stand on their feet. Don't try to choose a leader so you can lean on them, so you can keep trying to do everything unconsciously. So let's come together and let's be unanimous. We're responsible for the decisions that we take collectively. That's not part of the Happy Family Syndrome. If we collectively make the decisions there's no room for anybody to complain. Loan Rangers You all realize that your lone ranger attitude has gotten you into trouble many, many times, hasn't it? Starting from your mother, father, aunt, and cousins. And yet maybe you never saw a good reason to change. Here is a good reason to change. Lone rangers are the ones who mess up everything. They mess up a program. The only way to stop this chain of errors is to try to form a team, acknowledge the team. Let people bring their strengths forward instead of their weaknesses. Fear of being wrong How many of you are afraid of being wrong? Why? Fear of being wrong means that at some point you will find out you were wrong. I always say that at some point if a person acknowledges they are lost, they have turned the corner of not being lost. But a person who doesn’t acknowledge they are lost hasn't started the recovery process. You have to realize that this fear that you have is much more of a thing that you have grown up with. That's a big difference between some of us who are willing to accept mediocrity. I'm not going to accept mediocrity. And I'm not afraid to make mistakes. Most of us will keep doing the same things instead of being able to overcome our fear of making mistakes. And that is the difference between those people who succeeded versus those people who fail. So do you want to succeed or fail? Then you have to overcome the fear of being wrong. Judgement When people judge us, we don't like it. I'm not talking about work performance. As a human being, I will not judge you. Because that judgement that we don't like, we do sometimes place it on other people. We know what it is like to judge, and therefore we know we don't want to be judged. And so many times that's the thing that prevents the cohesion taking place. I'm not talking about work performance. I'm talking about human being to human being. Because as human beings we cannot become a team if we are judging people left and right. Work performance will be judged. That's always going to be there. The issue is, as human beings, are we going to judge people or not. Bad Habits - computer analogy We're like a computer that's full. We don't trash things out. It takes a real discipline. I keep my applications in one place, documents in one place, systems stuff in one place. When I back up I won't back up any applications or system stuff. I keep it nice and clean. Trash what's not good, Don't just hold onto it. Identify what is important to you. Knowledge is important. This feeling that Knowledge brings is important. The Master is important. Those can go in a place where they won't be disturbed. That's not what is being asked to change. Service is important. It's a way to express our gratitude. More you express it, more it comes. That's not what's being asked of each other. Then comes the human stuff. Stuff that we have some control over. Unfortunately, that's the folder we locked away. My bad habits, my unconsciousness is there. Saying 'I don't know' There was a time in my life when to say 'I don't know' was shocking. I realised there were people around me who didn't expect me to say I don't know. Then I realised I don't want to be that way. Now I really enjoy saying I don't know. It really leaves me off the hook. What we have visited there is that locked folder. When we started to get into it, everybody said that's my private folder, you can't go into there. I feel angry, I feel other people are incompetent, I don't want to have to ever think in my life. I've gotten older. Now I really don't want to think, and then you take that and open the folder up and say oh my God, this is bad stuff, this is the stuff that's crashing the computer all the time. Excuses Excuses become the padlocks to the doors. And the doors are locked. And you're in it. And you want to get out. Something beautiful is happening outside. And you're locked inside. We've made our excuses. This is how I work. This is me. Something comes along and says, this is not you. That's a very painful separation. Dark Thoughts. We all have Dark Thoughts. This can't be done - why not? Maybe not all of it call be done but maybe a part of it can be done. Team needs to have an understanding that it will forge ahead - not to decide it can't be done. If all the team decides is can't be done, then what's the purpose of the team? Respect Sometimes the person will not give us the respect because we are not giving them the respect. Respect has to be earned. Familiarity breeds contempt. Clarity breeds respect. Not the Happy Family Syndrome, I don't recommend it. But workplace respect. I'm going to need you. There's no greater axle grease than respect. Your life should be clear air, wide-open roads. But we allow people to push life into these narrow lanes and you can hardly walk. Claim your territory. Keep things clear, simple. Beautiful. Not living in fear. You wake up in the morning and you say the objective is to really enjoy. Not waking up and dreading things you have to do. It's a disease of premies, leaving things half-finished. You live with that bugged feeling, living with that list of things half-done. Either trash the list, that's a perfectly good option, because there's not much on it. You just love that bugged feeling. For the first time it's a unified effort. You get to play a part in it. Just think - what has been proposed here - that we work consciously, with respect - to be conscious and do things with respect. If everybody did that, India to America, Japan to New Zealand, if everybody did that, all the premies doing service, do you think there would be some significant impact? Trust Let's take a look at a person who goes to art school and does oil painting. First painting is garbage, does he give up? What does he do? Another one? So why should he try? It's going to be another garbage. Why should he try? Paintings are coming out garbage. He trusts that he will improve. That's the only reason. If he doesn't trust that he will ever improve, it's finished. He has to trust implicitly. More reservations, the more they will show up on his paintings. Don't look back Don't worry about what's happened. Life has no rewind button. Don't look back. Remember in the stories, if you look back you'll turn into stone. When you look back you get so petrified you can't move on. You learn. You don't have to look back. It doesn't matter how unconscious you've been. The day you realized I don't want to do that any more, that's how simple it is. And the day you stop giving yourself lip service, your whole world will change. Responsibility If you tell someone to do something, and you feel relieved, you've just made a mistake. If you tell somebody to do something and you are not going to follow up, that's abdication of responsibility. Don't get confused between trust and abdication of responsibility. If I've given someone something to accomplish, I will follow up with him or her. And if they can't do it, no problem, I'll get somebody else to do it. Reversible Investigation All you have to do is some reversible investigation. Whatever you do, make sure you can go back to exactly this point, as though nothing was done. Reversible investigation is the greatest asset that a manager or team can have. You can poke your head in the future and if the future doesn't look good, then you can come back without consequences Reversible investigation begins with a very clear strategy. Reversible, which signifies the group that doesn't want to do anything, and investigation, which signifies the group that does want to do something. The heart of the matter is reversible investigation. Why do the doctors love cat scans? It's like going inside but not having to cut the person. So it works really well. If there isn't anything there, no harm done. And if there is, you find out. So how could you do that? Don’t go with the solution, stay with the core. It has to carry in it the element of reversible investigation. It's reversible investigation. You have to have a very clear strategy for that. You have a life and a wonderful opportunity to enrich it. Not be able to take a trek on a mountain, but to enrich it in a very deep place, and have variety, and be involved in cutting edge technology - and different and fun. I think everything should be fun. The Business of Communications So what are we in the business of? We are in the business of communicating. That's how we give Knowledge. That's how we inspire people. A whole bunch of activities are taken care of by communication. Knowledge is given purely by communication now. People look at a screen. Not by interacting with a mahatma. To how many people does that come as a shock that we are in the business of communication? We inspire people, give people Knowledge through communication. What is our weakest element amongst us? We're in the business of communication and the weakest thing we do is communicate. Clarity Work with clarity. Don't look at each other as enemies, separate entities. Look at each other as being able to come together and accomplish the impossible. If you can show that kind of determination and clarity in anything you do, you will succeed. That's when everything marches in, grace, every power in the world aligns with you. Impossible becomes possible. Mountains shift. Oceans part. There is a clarity, a want, and a will, there's no hesitations.

Subject: Re: Maharaji Training transcript From: Happie Frenchie To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 17:19:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good to see you that you guys are still going at it full steam. I've been non-communicado for a while -- like two or three years... maybe four ? What can I say ? Time flies... As a matter of fact, I may have been posting under another pseudonym. Therefore, I had a lot of catching up to do here. You've certainly dug some more dirt on M. and shed still more light on his greedy ways and megalomaniacal behaviour. Going thru this transcript, I felt like I was reading excerpts from Orwell's '1984'. It sounds so much like fascist slogans, it's sickening. I'm particularly fond of the following passage of this monument of inanities : Don't look back Don't worry about what's happened. Life has no rewind button. Don't look back. Remember in the stories, if you look back you'll turn into stone. When you look back you get so petrified you can't move on. You learn. You don't have to look back. It doesn't matter how unconscious you've been. The day you realized I don't want to do that any more, that's how simple it is. He's giving advice to whom ? Himself ? Having read many PAMs accounts of this site, posts and journeys, I find it both funny and pathetic that HE, out of all people, should trumpet such nonsense. But it applies so much to him, it's frightening. It's sooo convenient for some to forget of the past.. I guess no memories, no remorse.... and no sense of accountability... As he says : 'it's simple'...

Subject: Re: Maharaji Training transcript From: AV To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 19:08:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Simple?? chilling I'd say...

Subject: Will he ever stop selling bullshit?? [nt] From: Dermot To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 00:01:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Will he ever stop selling bullshit?? From: happie Frenchie To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 17:38:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The anwer is simpe. No, as long as there are suckers to buy it -- unfortunately.

Subject: Hahahahahahahahaah love the 'leader' advice. [nt] From: Dermot To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 23:58:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Absolutely hilarious From: hamzen To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:47:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The guy doesn't have a clue, the irony of these quotes are just too much. He obviously never actually reflects on what he's saying at all. Beautiful, just too funny.

Subject: What a relief.... From: Bryn To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:42:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...not to feel the need to make sense of this stuff. What a mix it is! The need to be part of an elite makes you try to contextualise it. It is actually formless guesswork, validated by charismatic self assurance. It hurts my mind to read it now. Prem Pal you are a bluffer.Bluff on, I can't bear to hear you any more. Love Bryn

Subject: 'It hurts my mind to read it..' From: Crispy To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 11:04:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice line, Bryn. Can I use it, too? cuz that was my reaction as well. It sure was another insult to intelligence, and I lost count of how many times he contradicts himself. And I thought Knowledge was supposed to teach us how to stand on and live from our own experience and understanding. So much for thinking for oneself. I guess it's back to being programmed idiots, like the BORG. John M, this was consistent with the stuff that was passed thru the Knowledege Info Training, too. The only sense one can make of it is he's trying yet again to re-stake his boss status and sharpen his control. BTW, teamwork in 2001: In Canada, as a result of Mj's wish for teamwork, community coordinators resigned and local events and activities were run through teams of volunteers (Knowledge Intro Steering Committees)

Subject: says: From: Private Eye To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:10:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You want to do service? There's only one way. Be a part of a team. You want to serve me? - There's only one way - do it my way - whatever that happens to mean at the time. At the moment the buzzword is 'Teams'. It's meaningless really - just my latest attempt to get you lot doing what I want. Tomorrow I might say: 'There are to be NO TEAMS' and that would be the Service thing to do. Yes I have an objection but my objection is so trivial, it doesn't really matter. Teamwork really starts to happen when people start saying I retract my objection. Your objections are bound to be trivial, I mean that's just sooo predictable. And heaven help you if you do dare to raise your stupid little objection because you will have to suffer the humiliation of retracting it in front of the whole team. In WWII, you know how many of those loose cannons got people killed? Off they'd go and people would get killed. In the Gulf War, they have taken that leadership issue away from the field. Everybody communicates with the main boss and the main boss says do that because the boss has the big, picture. And we're fighting a war here aren't we premies? I mean, if you think for yourself people will DIE. You have been warned. You don't want that responsibility on your shoulders do you? You don't need a team leader. The only reason you would need a team leader is abdication of responsibility. I am the only leader! The only reason you would need another is if you don't want to think for yourself! Oh um...by the way don't think too much for yourself or people will DIE! Remember? You have to take responsibility to change things. And that opportunity is in front of you, but you have to recognize it and you have to take it. As usual, there is ,of course, no opportunity whatsoever for you to change anything - but let's pretend that there is and that you have to recognize that opportunity and that you have to take it. When you do think you've found an opportunity to change things you will naturally screw it up royally and once again, you will all realise how only I can change things. You will of course look really stupid which is good. Don't abdicate responsibility. At the same time don't sit there and hold onto your personality. It's a dance. Sometimes you have to step forward - sometimes YOU have to step back. If you feel something is wrong, say so. You can just say, I'm not comfortable. You think you can't say that? Sure, you can say you're uncomfortable if you feel something is wrong but you better be prepared for everyone looking at you like you're an idiot. But go ahead..speak up.. at least the team will know who IS the Weakest Link. Look this is just a Dance where you will make a fool of yourself OK? This is a slow attempt to start to coerce the consciousness of people to start taking responsibility. It will take awhile before you see a big effect. I'm making the effort because I believe in Knowledge, in the human potential. I, unlike anyone else on the planet, believe in the human potential, aren't I just wonderful? and I have invented the idea of coercing you stupid unconscious people into starting to take some responsibility for my mistakes. Don't expect immediate results but it WILL be wonderful one day because of MY HUGE EFFORT. I mean it was really hard reading that training manual and sooo boring learning the 'corporate-training-speak'. You all realize that your lone ranger attitude has gotten you into trouble many, many times, hasn't it? Starting from your mother, father, aunt, and cousins. Your Lone Ranger Attitude (you know what I mean don't you? - you thinking for yourself again) has gotten you into trouble many, many times, hasn't it? HASN'T IT?? Come on...somebody?? Anybody?? Please someone... And yet maybe you never saw a good reason to change. Here is a good reason to change. Lone rangers are the ones who mess up everything. They mess up a program. The only way to stop this chain of errors is to try to form a team, acknowledge the team. Let people bring their strengths forward instead of their weaknesses. Look guys - I'll level with you. I don't want any individuals on my team. I just want a bunch of automatons who do what I- The Perfect Lone Ranger wants. I want strong automatons NOT weak ones! How many of you are afraid of being wrong? Why? Fear of being wrong means that at some point you will find out you were wrong. You guys are all afraid of being wrong --know why? let me tell you. It's because you all are completely barking hopelessly wrong that's why. I always say that at some point if a person acknowledges they are lost, they have turned the corner of not being lost. But a person who doesn’t acknowledge they are lost hasn't started the recovery process. ...completely pathetically wrong and also...to make matters worse...abjectly lost. Lost and wrong is what you are! I of course am right, and know exactly where I am going and can guide you. But you understand, first I must convince you that you are lost and wrong otherwise you'll just carry on to your doom won't you? So do you want to succeed or fail? Then you have to overcome the fear of being wrong. If you don't confess to being wrong you will fail! We're like a computer that's full. We don't trash things out. It takes a real discipline. I keep my applications in one place, documents in one place, systems stuff in one place. Listen, I know you lost, wrong idiots can't operate, let alone afford a Mac like me. I have the very latest one and let me tell you...I know how to keep a good Mac! I have it all figured it all out - but it takes real 'Self Discipline'. Something you shabby lot know nothing about. You know what? - I keep my applications all in one place, documents in one place, systems stuff in one place. Now how many of you were wise to that little trick? Not many huh? When I back up I won't back up any applications or system stuff. I keep it nice and clean. Trash what's not good, Don't just hold onto it. Hey..when I, the Perfect Master 'back up' I really 'BACK UP' - know what I mean?! I do it so clean..poetry in motion..sniff. ...I do it with such consummate Grace..sniff..I even move myself to tears. Identify what is important to you. Knowledge is important. This feeling that Knowledge brings is important. The Master is important. Those can go in a place where they won't be disturbed. That's not what is being asked to change. Service is important. It's a way to express our gratitude. More you express it, more it comes. That's not what's being asked of each other. Nothing is important except Knowledge. THAT FEELING. THAT LOVE. THE MASTER. OK? Put those in a folder marked 'SECRET' - -Oh I forgot SERVICE is important too and GRATITUDE. That's a biggy.. the more you say 'thank you' the more you will convince yourself how grateful you are. That's just the way things are OK?.. Don't worry 'bout it. By the way.. . put all your own agendas in the trash. There was a time in my life when to say 'I don't know' was shocking. I realised there were people around me who didn't expect me to say I don't know. Then I realised I don't want to be that way. Now I really enjoy saying I don't know. It really leaves me off the hook. In the past if I confessed that I didn't know something people were shocked and split so I didn't. I just pretended I knew everything and guess what?..they believed me! Idiots. Anyway I got bored playing that game and anyway, nowadays I can do and say anything and people just accept that I'm perfect without question - they just think it's a Lila if I say 'I don't know' so what the hell? Actually it's a new game I play with them to say 'I don't know' because they stop pestering me with questions which I'm buggered if I know the answer to! Whew - got out of that one..clever old me! Respect Sometimes the person will not give us the respect because we are not giving them the respect. Respect has to be earned. Familiarity breeds contempt. Clarity breeds respect. Listen, normally if you respect someone they will show you respect. Respect has to be earned. I of course am exempt from that principle. That is not the dynamic between I, The Master and all the humans that are beneath me. They need to adopt an attitude of respect from the get-go even if they don't have any experience yet. I DEMAND respect and if your questions aren't put to me with enough grovelling subservience and dripping with sycophantic gratitude -I will make you look a complete idiot in my court of admirers. Don't look back Don't worry about what's happened. Life has no rewind button. Don't look back. Remember in the stories, if you look back you'll turn into stone. When you look back you get so petrified you can't move on. You learn. You don't have to look back. It doesn't matter how unconscious you've been. The day you realized I don't want to do that any more, that's how simple it is. And the day you stop giving yourself lip service, your whole world will change. Look let's forget about the past shall we? It NEVER HAPPENED! Hey...how about this to put you off..(Deep scary voice) 'IF-YOU-LOOK-BACK-YOU-WILL-BE-TURNED-INTO-STONE'! I mean don't try and do a reality check ...I mean ..the truth is so SCARY...I mean... you're so high up now you''ll fall and break into a thousand pieces...no 364 trillion and one pieces to be precise (at least that's what my Dad said and his Guru before him - going all the way back to the famous Guru Nanak and...and TotaPuri. That's right. 2 very respected sages. Tota Puri= 'Totally Purey' . that's the meaning. I am their sole descendent actually. OOPs there I go looking back! Mustn't do that. Remember YOU-CANNOT-LEARN-FROM-THE-MISTAKES-OF-THE PAST. YOU-CAN-LEARN-NOTHING-FROM-HISTORY-UNLESS-IT-IS -MY-REVISED-VERSION. Got it? Responsibility If you tell someone to do something, and you feel relieved, you've just made a mistake. If you tell somebody to do something and you are not going to follow up, that's abdication of responsibility. Don't get confused between trust and abdication of responsibility. If I've given someone something to accomplish, I will follow up with him or her. Responsibility. If things go well it was my responsibility. If they go badly it was someone else's. Simple enough? OK, so I told a bunch of people to surrender their lives to me in the ashram, giving up all their own stuf like - you know..their 'rat holes' - families and crap...anyway I was blowed if I was going to follow that up and take any responsibility for them when I realised it had all been a mistake, that could prove costly to me. I mean these guys trusted me but that was their stupid fault wasn't it? I mean I only said that The Ashram was the Only Place that they could Realise Knowledge and that all sincere single premies should go there for life - promising them that I'd look after them ad infinitum. I warned them of the dire consequences of not taking my advice too. OK so I managed to take away as much choice from their life as I possibly could but I left them with a tiny little bit didn't I? Anyway it's their fault for being suckered and anyway they failed to accomplish what I'd given them to do so I'm not following up that one. Knowledge is given purely by communication now. People look at a screen. Not by interacting with a mahatma. There is no real communication when Knowledge is given now. People just look at a screen. They don't interact with any real people. It's better that way. If you can show that kind of determination and clarity in anything you do, you will succeed. That's when everything marches in, grace, every power in the world aligns with you. Impossible becomes possible. Mountains shift. Oceans part. There is a clarity, a want, and a will, there's no hesitations. The Maharaji that is God (Big Maharaji) will make miracles will happen for you if you do as I say. Have you not noticed how many mountains I've..whoops..He has shifted? how all my premies are marching along so in step? How much Grace I've got? How many oceans He has parted for me? Be resolute like me - just don't question what you're being so resolute about.

Subject: Hey ''Eye'' . . . From: Carl To: Private Eye Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:30:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time! But so on-the-mark. Expose that subtext! Now I really know what LOL means. (Larfing Out Loud, yes?). Or is it Lots O' Lub? Either way, it's cool. Carl

Subject: Re: Hey ''Eye'' . . . From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 18:44:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'scuse me for being thick, but what IS this all about???? what's this TEAM supposed to do???

Subject: How the mighty have fallen From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:35:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These are the words of wisdom which future generations will study when they're trying to decide what Krishna,Christ,Buddha,Mahomet,Dawkins....add to the list(I'm not one of your exclusive bastards),had to say about the human condition. Then the greatest of them all,the Satguru,Lord of Yogi's,Lord of the Universe, comes out in middle age,at the peak of his wealth & glory...sounding like a toaster salesman. You can't believe that's even superficially impressive,can you? Never trust these guys John,although I'll admit they're easier to dismiss when they're wearing polyester ties rather than silk ones.

Subject: It will NEVER work From: Will To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:26:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji obviously is trying to get his mission going. He has a vision. In this vision there are PWKs leading fulfilled lives who offer him their dedicated service. These fulfilled people come together in harmony, enjoying the feeling that Knowledge brings, and they work to bring about the success that Maharaji is trying to achieve. What is the success? How is it measured? Has it been achieved yet to some degree? Obviously, what Maharaji wants is the success of himself as the Master and the success of his devotees in feeling fulfillment in being his student, and the continuing growth and propagation of this group of people. But the very fact that he is giving a peptalk and a training session indicates how far from success he and the premies are from Maharaji's vision. The main problem is that Maharaji doesn't seem to recognize some basic facts about life and human nature. People do not find fulfillment in being a student, a follower, and a member of a team. Only in the development of youth do such things offer comfort and support and instruction. Eventually, a person must grow into mature individualism, self-reliance, and personal freedom of expression. Nobody can remain a cult member and lead a mature, realized, fulfilled life. That's why premies abhor the term cult. And yet Maharaji calls upon these premies to subjugate themselves to a team effort, a team whose direction and voice they have no personal control over. The impersonal and harmonized group that Maharaji is trying to get the premies to participate in is the very thing that PREVENTS personal liberation and self-Knowledge. No matter how many training sessions Maharaji conducts, no matter what strategies he will ever come up with to support his idealized vision of the Master, the Knowledge, and the fulfilled students, he will always fail. All attempts at such utopias have always failed. The unity that they seek is already there, in life itself. And when they try to impose the smaller unity of their own little group, they lose out automatically on the real unity. What Maharaji wants to bring about already exists in every human being - it doesn't depend on him as the Master and the four techniques. When love and inner fulfillment is attempted to be reached by Maharaji's methods, whatever already is becomes lost. The very act of imposing a particular way leads the student away from where he is. The Tao that can be Taoed is not the Tao. The real unity unifies the premie and the ex-premie. Everything that defines a person as a premie is an odd-on, a mask, a false identity. Liberation cannot come when a person is wearing any such masks. To identity as a premie is a juvenile act. To accept one's own real identity is both liberation and fulfillment. It's nothing more, really, than growing up, which every person is bound to do. To end, I must say that I appreciated one thing that Maharaji had to say in that training session. I congratulate him on now being able to say 'I don't know.' He should do so more often.

Subject: His 'don't know' From: Ddermot To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 00:49:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seems to me, was based on having to PRETEND for years on end that he did know. So from that admission of his now enjoying the liberation of saying ' I don't know', is his confession that he colluded in fakery, indeed encouraged fakery for years. .....and still they listen to his crap in these pathetic training seminars. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Another excellent post, Will From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:30:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good from beginning to end. Thanks.

Subject: What if Maharaji practiced what he preached? From: Richard To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:09:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am struck by the irony of these guidelines as set forth by M. If M actually practiced what he's telling others to do, he might have had a chance at changing the world. No one person can know all the answers. That's why there is a team. The deficiencies of one person can be made up. The team can accomplish what no one individual can. Some of M's closest aides have told us that M takes all the credit for success and scapegoats the mistakes. Unanimity forces you to abandon those cages and look through other people?s eyes and listen through other people's ears, seeing things from other people's perspectives. It is a life enriching experience, no less. I wonder what he sees that I can't see. There's a website you can go to Maharaji.:) First of all you should realize the negatives of a leader. Why do people want a leader'? So they don't have to think. So they can blame somebody. So based on just those two issues, do you want to be a leader? All right. If those two issues are so intolerable to you, then even if they want you to be a leader, turn it back on them. What do you think? Start a process where they take responsibility. Good idea, Maharaji. So that means you'll take responsibility for Fakiranand, Jagdeo and the ashram closings? Wonderful and thank you for being the living perfect team member and doing the right thing. When people judge us, we don't like it. ... as human beings we cannot become a team if we are judging people left and right. Hmmmmmm. Sorry, didn't mean to interfere with your team by judging you. Sometimes the person will not give us the respect because we are not giving them the respect. Respect has to be earned. Familiarity breeds contempt. Clarity breeds respect. We're waiting for the clarity oh he who wants respect but can't give it. And this last bit is at least honest. Calling K a business. The Business of Communications So what are we in the business of? We are in the business of communicating. That's how we give Knowledge. That's how we inspire people. A whole bunch of activities are taken care of by communication. Knowledge is given purely by communication now. People look at a screen. Not by interacting with a mahatma. God forbid there be any actual human interaction. It's best to have it be from M's mouth, bounced to the bird in space and down to the waiting Dish Network subscribers. Less confusion from the unsychronized that way. Thanks John for taking the time to post that.

Subject: Re: What if premies practiced what he preached? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:36:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The perfect living leader opines: ''First of all you should realize the negatives of a leader. Why do people want a leader'? So they don't have to think.'' Yup. The premies should take his advice - but then they don't want to think for themselves.

Subject: Another document for EPO From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:05:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''If you read it and knew nothing of the real dynamics, you’d probably be impressed.'' No, I wasn't impressed at all. It sounds like he is talking to a bunch of entry-level middle-management types. People learn this stuff in their twenties when they go to work for their first corporation and some even learn the basics in kindergarten. Sounds like remedial work-dynamics for dysfunctional people. Then of course there are also whiffs of the man's insanity such as: ''Up until now, because of individual protection system, propagation has suffered. There is no longer any protection. Your protection is in synchronization with the team, that's your protection.'' What in hell does that mean? Just a convoluted way of blaming others for his failures? The man is certifiable. I loved this bit: ''What is our weakest element amongst us? We're in the business of communication and the weakest thing we do is communicate.'' He said it. What an idiot! But thank you, John, for scanning and posting that. I hope it ends up on EPO under cult documents.

Subject: Re: Maharaji Training transcript From: Gail To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 13:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fear of being wrong How many of you are afraid of being wrong? Why? Fear of being wrong means that at some point you will find out you were wrong. I always say that at some point if a person acknowledges they are lost, they have turned the corner of not being lost. But a person who doesn’t acknowledge they are lost hasn't started the recovery process. The Lard should read his own words. Obviously, this analysis doesn't apply to him. He's not wrong. He's not lost! It's all a divine LILA (LYE-LA)!

Subject: Hellstrom's Hive? From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I'm sorry but I have to disagree; these notes are extremely interesting. Thanks for going to the trouble. It all reminds me of a Frank Herbert book I read before becoming a premie that spooked me from time to time when I 'got in my mind' during my tenure in the cult. This is just one more version of Maharaji's attempt to crush the human spirit. Judging by the premie trolls we've seen recently, his experiment's gone awry. In fact, perhaps the better analogy is The Island of Dr. Moreau. Here's a review of Hellstrom's Hive: Incredible. How imaginative for Frank Herbert to take a popular documentary movie of the late 60's about insects, the famous 'Hellstrom's Chronicles', and turn it into a science fiction novel ! In this story, the movie-making lab of Dr. Hellstrom is just a cover for a more sinister plot to overtake the Earth with humans bred with a hive mentality... human insects ! For Dune fans, the connection will be immediate: Dune's Bene Jesserett sisterhood could well have been forming in Frank's mind when he wrote Hellstrom's Hive. The engineering of the human species is the basis for this novel and Dune (not to mention other Herbert novels). I couldn't help but feel that Hellstrom's Hive was the embryonic stages of Dune coming to life. For a true Herbert fan, this book is a blessing. Oh, the ending is not your typical fairy-tale ending either ! Quite scarey actually. Good luck finding a copy. Boy, am I glad I'm out! Hellstrom's Hive www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553259806/qid=1017331831/sr=1-36/ref=sr_1_36/104-6183573-2235129

Subject: Poor Prem, I believe you have fallen into the MIND From: Ganjanand Ji To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:14:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How can you live in all this MAYA? From: Ganjanand Ji To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:27:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: MAYA? WHAT MAYA? From: Sulla To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:44:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe my Spanish soap operas? The ones from Brazil are so good! And the one from Colombia 'Pedro el Escamoso' is also good and veery funny! Thanks God I never, even as a premie, listened to my relative who wanted to convince me and my husband, who sometimes joined me, that they were kind of evil because that took us away from the holy name. We got the wrong message, she got the right one since she was trying to be focused in her breath every second. Lately I was trying to convince her that she can watch TV in peace because M. does it an enjoys it. But she is like the bird that doesn't want to fly away even when somebody left the door open, because M. is M. (He is God, but don't tell anybody) and she is what she is. For us there isn't much Maya available, anyway.

Subject: Quite easily From: JHB To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 06:31:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: GJ, All you have to do is value the important things in life like your friends, family, your vocation, hopes, making your dreams come true, this planet, honesty, integrity, our minds, friendship and love. When these things are important to you, then living is a joy. John.

Subject: Those who don't live in maya From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 08:04:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are always repeating the mantra 'it's all illusion' thus numbing themselves to those things you mentioned. This numbness the enlightened ones call 'being out of the illusion'. It's very very sad. Jethro

Subject: Pardon me? From: Ganjanand Ji To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:16:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Pardon me? From: Gail To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:05:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Pardon me? From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:09:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My post got lost. Maharaji's Whirld is the Maya. We chose to believe in his make-believe world because we were afraid to take responsibility for our own lives. If you want to get into what's real, consider this: The world is real (relatively permanent-hence 'real estate'). The rest of the stuff is temporary, but fun if we don't live our lives with our heads burried in the sand!

Subject: What exactly is MAYA? (nt) From: hamzen To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 13:49:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a

Subject: Those who don't live in maya From: Jethro To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are always repeating the mantra 'it's all illusion' thus numbing themselves to those things you mentioned. This numbness the enlightened ones call 'being out of the illusion'. It's very very sad. Jethro

Subject: Close encounters of the 3rd kind.... From: Crispy To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:29:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To Gananandji, How can I live in all this 'maya'? Kind of like the scene in Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind: the van-load of visitors to the rendez-vous point in Wyoming - all wearing gas masks because they were told the air is contaminated. But one guy doesn't buy it, takes off his mask and is relieved to discover the air is okay.

Subject: Re: Close encounters of the 3rd kind.... From: Jethro To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 18:29:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one Crispy

Subject: Short article on SaiBaba From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:49:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sai Babas devotees commit suicide www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/280801/detfro06.asp

Subject: Another Baba? From: Sulla To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 16:49:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So this is not the same Baba or Muktananda as the one from Siddha Yoga? Because this one is already dead.

Subject: He's alive and is probably From: Jethro To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 18:31:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the biggest godman in India.

Subject: Susan Johnson ( part one ) From: Ulf To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 17:21:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is another satsang From Susan , remember her ? Wonder if she is still with M ? I hope it is okay ,,I learn more about my own involment, and my english is getting better and better by doing this. Wow . I just know that this body was made to have that experience. I dont think it was made for any other experience . And these eyes are just to see that glorious sight of guru. maharaj.ji . These ears are just to hear guru maharaj.ji. These lips are just to kiss his feet . This heart just beats for guru maharaj. ji. Because really there`s just no other experience in this world . There`s just nothing else. This worl is empty without this this experience. This life is completly useless without guru. maharaj.ji. It`s such a divine experience, guru maharaj.ji is. Such a beautiful experience . so beatuful. I just know that the puepose for this life is loving guru maharaj. ji, is feeling that love of guru maharaj ji , being filled with that love of guru maharaj ji And every time i come to a program , every time i see guru maharaj ji , i just never want to leave. I never want to go away . And yet it just seems like he always sends us away. And it`s kind of like those balloons that were sent off today at the beginning of the program . We just get spread out into this world . And it`s almost like we`re radioactive. We sort of leak this love. Guru maharaj.ji just fills us up so much that it sort of comes out of us , everywhere . And little by little it spreads into this world . And i know for myself , if it were up to me -- because i`m so selfish - i would just always want to be with guru maharaj ji . But he loves this world so much . He loves his children so much, that he wants everyone to know how beautiful he is. And i`m so glad that he found me and picked me up. Somehow he catches me whenever i start to crawl away. And he`s kept me. And i know he wants to keep all of us , all of the time. Because he knows how beautiful this life can be. There`s so many things that go on in this world , and yet around guru maharaj ji , food loses its taste, friends lose their importance, sleep loses its effectiveness. Everything becomes irrelevant in the face of guru maharaj ji, every experience. And all i can do is just beg ´´ guru maharaj ji , please never let me go . Please protect me. And help me to become more and more that true lover Because some people in this world , it just seems like they`re lovers already. And some people he has to teach . And i feel like mayby i`m one of those people that he has to teach how to love, how to love him and how to appreciate him. And there is nothing else i want in this world . Nothing. And i know that`s true for all of us . Because i know that that`s what this life was made for , to have that experience of experiences, wich is guru maharaj ji. Guru maharaj ji , you are so beautiful- the way you move, the way you look , the way you talk , the way you are ... you`re so beatiful.

Subject: Re: Susan Johnson ( part one ) From: Livia To: Ulf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 14:17:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you sure you don't mean Anne Johnson? The Canadian woman who left her husband and children to follow Maharaji, and was recently(?) heard of being in effect told to go away by Maharaji because her obsession was becoming too much? She was basically told to "get a life", which, at the age of close to 60 (I assume) and after a lifetime's following agya, was, I feel, a bit much. I remember Anne well; she came to stay in the ashram I was living in once and was like some kind of a nun. I wonder what became of her children. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Susan Johnson ( part one ) From: Ulf To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 12:09:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No , for sure Susan Johnson was her name , she was around for years . She was a nr, 1 devote . i do not know about Anne . Best Wishes Ulf

Subject: Re: Susan Johnson ( part one ) From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 14:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the time I was told she (Ann) had a miniature garden/altar planted in the ashtray of her car, and insisted all her bedlinen should be starched and ironed (eeeeuuwch)...(i must have a weird memory)... Once I got really freaked out at Rome when some guy did some unauthorised spontaneous cranial 'healing' on me, she comforted me by saying I'd probably been 'freed from thousands of years of karma'....boy wuz I relieved ;-)

Subject: Ashtray of her car...... From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 17:24:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...reminds me of a great song I'm sure you'll like. Plastic Jesus,Plastic Jesus,riding on the dashboard of my car, Plastic Jesus gotta go,his magnet's ruined my radio, Riding on the dashboard of my car. ps.Country & Western lilt.

Subject: country AND western..?! From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 19:06:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yessiree bob....wurz mah shobud!!!!

Subject: Thanks for posting that, Ulf From: PatC To: Ulf Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 22:41:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, thank you typing it out. I just hope that Susan isn't too embarassed by it. She doesn't have to be because most of us early premies thought like that.

Subject: Re: Thanks for posting that, Ulf From: Ulf To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 15:35:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Infact nobody should be embarassed by it. This was the very soul of us all. That is the very reason i was typing it . We all , was a part in this . We all belived that it was just a matter of time, before everyone would understand... lol. all my best to Susan then and now . Ulf ,

Subject: Re: Thanks for posting that, Ulf From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 13:34:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember feeling that I wanted to be that devoted, too! How I prayed to have that determination. Geez, people don't even talk about their children, spouses or lovers that way. We sure were over the top. Is Susan Johnston the one whose father was a senator? Remember Durga Ji's chat at Tuscon in 1978.... And where is your determination. Think of the determination it took to learn to walk .... blah, blah, blah Looking back on it all now, I had the same difficulty buying into the cult as I did learning to smoke. After months and months of practice, I was addicted.

Subject: My theory, Gail From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:18:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Looking back on it all now, I had the same difficulty buying into the cult as I did learning to smoke. After months and months of practice, I was addicted.'' My theory is that the only ones who are left in the cult now are the ones who never had any resistance to cult-conditioning in the first place. They swallowed the bait hook, line and sinker right from the gitgo and still have the barb stuck in their throats and have been wriggling at the end of the fishing-line ever since. Ouch! I was always so envious of the gopis and devotees because I couldn't quite drum it up in myself and (is my face red?) sometimes even faked it. Yes! Yes! Ooh baby!

Subject: faking it From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:22:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I faked it sometimes too. Sometimes it was just too uncomfortable to admit you weren't feeling anything. Once at a programme in Rome I was feeling monumentally pissed off and told someone how I was feeling. She was feeling blissed out at the time and basically told me to get away from her. (I've told this before - it must still rankle for some reason!) And other times I owned up to feeling pissed off I'd then be subjected to an endless, (pitying) dreary lecture. It's all coming back to me now! So what do you do? You end up keeping quiet and grinning and bearing it. But now I come to think of it, how many of us were faking it how much of the time? Fakers step forward please! Love, Livia PS Oh and please, any lurking premies, before you come on and accuse me of having never 'got' Knowledge, sorry, I can't oblige there I'm afraid. I also felt bliss, devotion, peace, the lot. But it didn't lead to all the things that a true Knowledge of God should/would/must. Sorry. And I can't see it in any of you guys either. (Anyone seen Passages? Sheesh!!!)

Subject: Fakers step forward please [nt] From: PatC- LOL To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 13:32:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Susan in 1999 From: Will To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:54:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Susan was the coordinator for aspirants in Los Angeles in 1999. Our old friend Daneane had several dealings with her. I suppose Susan must have moved on from that particular service since the aspirant numbers in Los Angeles are in the negative figures.

Subject: Hi Will, nice to see you here. [nt] From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 15:04:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Those were the days, my friend... From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 01:51:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... we thought they'd never end. Susan may have articulated it but we were nodding in agreement at the time. Cheers, Ulf and thanks. I can't imagine how difficult it would be for me to try to post in Danish. You do very well in English.

Subject: Dearest Mahatma Coat Ji From: Bai Gosh Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, we thought they'd never end. What is this maya coming too, I ask you very sincerely and with both my hands on my hearts? You and I dear old sainted friend never thought that there would come a day when we could no longer wear saris, sing bhajans, dance gharbas and would be told that we could not sing the prasies of the blissful born lord of yogis who is greater than Lucy I mean Brahman in the sky. Now I have to be trained in Malibu mext week how to sing the praises of our lord without getting to warm and fuzzy and not bow and scrape and they say that my accent is too Indian. Excuse me I learned Englush very fluently in school in Delhi. How I miss the days so very muchly when we could openly sing the praises of the living lord and not have to pretend to be ashamed of him. Pat:C)

Subject: Dearest Bai Gosh Ji From: Mahatma Coat To: Bai Gosh Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:56:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh my dear Bai Gosh Ji, It seems like only yesterday that we were young devotees sharing big fat chillum out by banks of great Mother River Ganga. We danced among the stars knowing our Balyogeshwar would catch us if we ever fell. Best wishes for your training how to speak for the Lord of Lords. It is only perfect that now you are able to be giving something back to He who is the One who has always and will always be the One who is giving and is always giving everything that flows from only the One who is . . . Guru Maharaj Ji!!! Are you gifted by wealthy local premie ji's to go to Amaroo? It would be so very much nice to again share blissful Satsang with my dear Bai Gosh Ji. I saw Sant Ji in a dream the other night. First he was flying aeroplane trying to get away from shrieking woman named Jwa. Then he was sitting in big chair at Amaroo as we sang arti and kissed His Holy Lotus Feet. Bhole Shri!!! Mahatma Coat (aka Richard)

Subject: premie mindset From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 12:29:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just spent a couple of days, for work-related purposes, with a devout premie. First time in ages that I've spent any extended time with one. And what an eye-opener it turned out to be.... I didn't tell him I was an ex (he didn't ask - didn't in fact seem interested either way) because I wanted to draw him out without making him defensive. Also because I still don't feel ready to come out to devout long-term premie friends as an ex - otherwise I'd be posting under my real name, I suppose - no other reason not to. Anyway, it was interesting, very interesting. What struck me the most was his strange and quite disturbing inabilility to engage in what I would call a normal, healthy way, with the real world that we were encountering in the work-related situation we found ourselves in. He seemed strangely removed from it all, whereas I felt, and must have seemed, fully engaged. He seemed to be unable to appreciate the beautiful scenery or the frankly fascinating humanness of the people we were encountering. I suspect it all seemed flat to him, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to help engaging in a more natural way. The only way I can describe it is that he seemed at one remove from everything around him; almost as if nothing had intrinsic worth unless it seemed closely connected to Maharaji's world. In fact, it seemed like a form of blinkered contempt. I actually began to feel a little sorry for him, because he seemed quite lost and adrift from himself. We had time to talk a lot, and I brought up loads of subjects to see what his response would be, and in every area, except when we spoke aboout Maharaji, his response was flat and without any enthusiasm. At one point he said words to the effect that it was a weird world we lived in... And I saw that to make Maharaji your priority actually has the effect of pretty much alienating you from the world as other people live and see it, but without replacing it with the truth, bliss and consciousness that was originally promised. A mind-numbing calm (read flatness) maybe, but who needs that? I asked him if he's read EPO but of course he hadn't - his attitude was that it's all written by people who are 'in their minds', needless to say. He finds relationships very difficult, even a nuisance, because they 'bog you down' etc. Basically, then, he seemed to me to be living in a parallel universe. To him the other universe, the one I'm happy to live in, is inhabited by people who are generally 'in their minds', engaged in pursuits that have no intrinsic value, because the only intrinsic value is in Maharaji's world. To him, human love is all selfish and illusion, creativity is ego, you name it, it's all hollow if it isn't directly Knowledge-related. I suspect the only time he's truly happy is when he is in the presence of Maharaji, and I would also suspect his only aim or ambition is to be a PAM. (He has PAM possibilities.) But he'll probably never become one so he must feel, and certainly seems to emanate, a sense of intense disappointment. Next time I spend time with him, I'm going to attempt to ask him some direct questions about his experience and how he sees the world. I'd like to see if he articulates what I sensed. I didn't feel like questioning him on this occasion as he actually seemed quite fragile. I must say I found the whole thing very odd and disquieting. Has anybody else here spent time with a premie/premies and felt or noticed anything similar? With love, Livia

Subject: to Livia From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 19:16:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia,this is very scary and close to me because I am in the process of healing my state of mind of that very syndrome, in fact what I would like to express would run into a long and probably deep posting which , alas,I cannot manage just now; But in brief ( I think the odd isolated memories speak volumes) I recall a day walking with my then partner and young daughter thru' the countryside on a perfect summers' day, and being totally bummed out that I wasn't experiencing 'holy name',which of course I should have been remembering, and feeling , as I had for many years, a terrible background angst and tension that my conciousness was not 'in that place'.......I later thought of this story ;l a man spent his whole life in prayer and service to God ,never venturing out into ' the world', but with his mind fixed with rapt attention on his devotions.. at death he finally came to God, who rather than being an Ancient Bearded Wise One, was actually young, frisky and excited...'so what what did you think of the Playground?' said God , eager to see how His wonderful Creation had been enjoyed..... 'PLAYGROUND!!!!! d'oh!!!' How sad to have missed those sunny days...

Subject: A perfect summer's day.... From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 20:36:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but still there's something missing,because there's got to be more to it than that,& you know what the more is, it's sat chit anand,but how can you feel that when you're out in the sunshine instead of being in the inner sunshine when the clouds come between you & divine bliss. I know what you're talking about,wish I had more time to write:the important thing to realise imo,is that Guru Maharaji isn't worthy to kiss yourfeet. What's done is done & fuck him.

Subject: I see it as an anaesthetic From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 13:45:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only way you can hold on to the fact that a non-premie actually might be more realized than yourself, but I also think it's about being over sensitive to a certain vibe, like bogus old school politeness. The only way to protect yourself is that numbing distancing technique. One of the first changes I noticed when I started dumping large parts of that premie crap was how alive my skin started to feel, as though I had distanced myself from my body. The next thing I noticed was that when I dropped the superiority pose how much more wise were the people I was hangin about with than I thought they were, but also more wise than myself in certain key areas, once that crack starts appearing you realize that even if you are very aware in certain areas because of our one dimensional focus, how many other areas completely by-passed us.. We missed out on all the changes in reality models that get argued through the generations, as though society was static, and truth was fixed..

Subject: ...or a pain-killer From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:23:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi ham! Most of the prems I know now are addicted to the pain-killing aspects of M and K. Go to see M; get fix; feel fine for two days; pain returns; practice, progress and participate frantically to try to get the same fix as going to see the master but the pain-killing effects are never as good and it's sad. Like seeing junkies using cut horse.

Subject: Thank you for this post,Livia From: Ganjanand Ji To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:06:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when I read it, I was so overjoyed to hear that there are still such devoted premies in this world of illusion.The way he is so absolutely aloof of this mundane existence and always into the true world of Knowledge makes me feel very happy. This Premie Ji has understood the true purpose of this creation, what a blessed guy! You know as is stated in the Holy Book of our Muslim brothers, the Holy Qu'ran: 'Thus speaketh the Lord: when you are in trouble you call out for Me, but once I have saved you from it, you turn away from Me and take the credit and say: I accomplished that.' This is a very bad attitude my friends, as our brother Rajeswaranand Ji said in London in 1974: oh humanity, if you do not prostrate before Guru Maharaj Ji now, you will not do so in a million years...Worse even, with your bad attitude you may even get sent to the bottomless pits of hell for countless eons, only to be reborn after that as donkeys and monkeys, well, by the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji maybe as a holy cow in India (hopefully not on Muslim territory ). But I am confident this will not happen as long as such devoted premies as the one mentioned in your post are on this planet. Do you know, the whole Universe would explode into bits and pieces if not for the Presence of Guru Maharaj Ji and His Premies on this Earth?So I will always sing the praises of such a devoted Premie Ji! Bolie Shri Unknown Premie Ji Ki Jai! Oh you lucky people, you see, you get all such precious teachings from this old Mahatma Ji FREE OF CHARGE on this website... well hmh maybe some of you guys got brothers and relatives or friends fighting for democracy and freedom in Afghanistan? and maybe they can get some of those ugly nasty Taliban and rip them off a couple-a-keys of that charas!!Them guys grow some of the finest, yah know.... In this sense, truly yours in His Service your brother Ganjanand Ji. Roll another one just like the other one....

Subject: I'm not surprised From: Shane Gould To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 22:58:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you found it very odd and disquieting. That's because of the very nature of your thoroughly dishonest, underhand and sneaky agenda at the time. Of course you didn't enjoy the experience - who would? Your right though, that particular premie is asleep. He should have seen right through you in the first two minutes.

Subject: Re: I'm not surprised From: Livia To: Shane Gould Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:53:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear! Dishonest, underhand and sneaky am I? As a matter of fact, the premie was fully aware that I have been 'drifting' for years, because he had to correct me on some outdated terminology I used. The reason I didn't tell him exactly where I was at was because I am not ready to jeapordise a 30 year friendship. This is not to say that I won't attempt to engage him in a deeper debate the next time I see him. It was actually the first time I'd seen him since exing. Now tell me something. Was I really any more 'dishonest, underhand and sneaky' than the premie concerned who said nothing whatsoever about his true preoccupation to any of the non-premies we were with? I am certain many of them would have recoiled from him had they known he was the devout follower of the 'guru with all the money' that they would probably remember having read about some years back. I'm afraid premies do this all the time. They jolly along with non-premies, silently and covertly dismissing much of what the non-premie believes in and lives by, while keeping very quiet about what they really believe. This, they feel, is their prerogative. And they don't mention Maharaji because they know the response they will probably get. For the record, way, way back, I used to tell virtually everybody about Maharaji and Knowledge. Some were interested, some even received Knowledge. And some were alienated by me, and I even lost a couple of dear friends. Over and over again I found myself having to explain, justify and account for Maharaji's wealth, the smuggling incident, even the Fakiranand incident, as I'm sure we all did. I used to quote the story of Jesus and the expensive oils: 'the poor you will always have with you' etc etc. Didn't we all! I didn't know there was going to be a $7m yacht then. I thought he really needed the plane for propogation purposes. Anyway, I'm going off the point here. Shane, I found the experience disquieting because I saw just how far this particular premie has gone from the place he used to be. He is a fully participating, daily practising premie who hasn't wavered or drifted in all these years. And what has he become? Somewhat alienated from the world, somewhat confused, unable to enjoy simple pleasures for their own simple sake. Completely unable to keep a relationship together or to appreciate the value or worth of human love. A life actually adrift from depth, purpose or genuine ethical values. This is what he is left with after 30 years of serving his master. For your own sake, I hope you don't recognise any of this in yourself. If you do, then do yourself a favour and get out. Life is so, so much better when you do. With regards, Livia

Subject: Amen! [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:56:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Shane please tell me.... From: Peg To: Shane Gould Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 05:57:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what course of action you would recommend? I have been in a similar situation. Having a good long term friendship which had as a background a mutual regard for Maharaji. When I read epo and lost that regard I was loathe to tell the people I cared about, one because it was very upsetting for me and so I was reluctant to start that process in my friends, two because I imagined they would reject me as a deluded and dangerous, and I would lose a friendship that I wanted to keep. However, as you pointed out I did feel sneaky, dishonest and underhand. I hope you don't reply to this too flipply as I am asking a serious question. How would you react if a good premie friend came out suddenly but honestly with something like 'I have found out a lot of things about Maharaji that have been hidden. I no longer respect him. I have been freed from the premie group think and now feel that Maharaji leads a cult, probably has a personality disorder, and that the knowledge is no more or less than 4 meditation techniques that do not need to be revealed but can be learnt from books or on the internet and do not need any input from Maharaji to help practise them. As you are my friend and I respect and care about you, I hate to see that you are being deceived in this way, let me share what I have discovered...etc. etc....' I have the same respect for honesty that you have (I think, hope) but although that would be the truth for me I have not come out with it all of a piece with any of my friends. I have just let it be known(eventually) that I am no longer a premie and answered any questions. Often, which always surprises me, there are none. Tell me what would you like your good friend to say, if this happened to them? Would you find yourself less comfortable around them? Would your friendship founder? Would you withdraw? If you wouldn't and would stay and discuss this openly, honestly and with your friendship intact, do you think you are perhaps unusual? My feeling is that most premies would recoil at such direct treatment. I think I would have. Hope you will answer. Peg

Subject: Nice one, Peg [nt] From: PatC To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:51:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ''blinkered contempt'' From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 22:44:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Livia. Another great post from you. Have I told you before that I think you are a wonderful writer and thinker? Well, I'm telling you now. Your posts are much appreciated. Thanks.

Subject: To PatC and all From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:18:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks sweetie! I love your posts too, in fact I enjoy it here hugely. There's so much stimulating stuff to read here and it has caused me to reevaluate my entire life. It's such a relief, too, isn't it, to be able to articulate thoughts and feelings after so many years, and to have them intelligently mirrored back and elaborated on. Wonderful stuff. Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: Thanks Livia, Peg and all From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:53:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have added a lot to the discussion here and I thank you for taking the time to share it with us.

Subject: Re From: bill To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 16:43:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You might consider printing out some EPO info. THe Mike Dettmers Mike Finch interview might be a good choice. Do talk to the guy. You could really save his life.

Subject: Re: premie mindset From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 14:13:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must say I found the whole thing very odd and disquieting. Has anybody else here spent time with a premie/premies and felt or noticed anything similar? Dear Livia Very much indeed - twas one of the major drips for me over the years. The convoluted mindset that is required to believe in the Maha and yet be in the world requires very negative mental gymnastics that that leads to a dis-harmony, a flatness as you describe (flatlining - thanks Lesley). I think that many premies (not all) dare not acknowledge to their work colleagues that they are followers of Maha and pretend that they are just 'ordinary' people. This disjointed perspective gives rise to a mental flatness which there is no escape from. Certainly this was my experience for many a long year. Why not acknowledge that one is a follower of Maha? I think because innately pwks recognise that their belief system is unbalanced and has no intrinsic merit. Not something that they recognise consciously but there nevertheless. All in all it sets up a dynamic that is unhealthy, even destructive. My contacts with 'commited' premies, like you, indicate that there is a lack of enthusiasm for anything other than Maha. Even when enthusiasm is shown for something of this world it has to be described as being in the context of Maha. There seems to be a geniune fear of being committed to anything unless it has this context. I must say, however, that once some of these premies (some of which I have known for years) get to know that I am an ex and understand that I am not going to force anything on them they are happy to explore their dissonnce. Some - not all. Interesting nevertheless. Thanks for your post - enjoyed reading it. Love Opie

Subject: Another good post Opie From: PatC To: Opie Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 22:49:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you said: ''Why not acknowledge that one is a follower of Maha? I think because innately pwks recognise that their belief system is unbalanced and has no intrinsic merit.'' Also they are embarassed to say they have a ''master'' and ashamed of that master's greed and obvious failure to give them the peace that they sought. Most of the premies I know are not happy at all and are struggling with life.

Subject: Re: struggling with life From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 05:43:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know any people that I have recieved K recently, but certainly amongst long term pwk there is an inbuilt emotional comfort zone implanted that says 'The Lord Is Here and he will make everthing alright..' But when everything patently ISN'T alright,(whether it be traumatic events, or mental depression, anxiety etc, when it becomes impossible to derive relief or guidance from K) the person cannot point the finger at M, as that would involve the (almost impossible ) removal of the deeply embedded comfort zone, so there is no choice but to point the blame at one's self, or to be exact, one's 'crazeee mind'. This sort of convoluted thinking produces statements along the lines of; ''Its M's mercy that we received this K, because if we knew how difficult it was to practise, to surrender that nasty little ego, then we would never have bothered, and then we would never have come to know HIM (uppercase-bold-underlined).'' And if the seeds of doubt about your own thought processes (i.e I believe one thing, but my emotional profile is a mess, and this doesn't add up) have reduced your capacity to make any kind of clear decisions about your own future, i.e. you just drift along, spaced out,waiting for some little synchronicity to prove that GRACE is still somehow working for you, then you really HAVE surrendered control, and have little chance of pulling through unless you are prepared to abandon the comfort zone, and tough it out. I also know only too well the problem of committment to anything 'worldly', and have regularly walked away from business and personal involvements because of a really heavy primal fear that I would be 'wedding myself to Maya (mire!!!)' and that would lead to my inexorable decent into madness and destruction...in which case 'flatlining' was the only 'safe' option. There IS a harmony in this world, a flock of birds turn together in the sky without sign or instruction, trees give up their fruit unconditionally, whether anyone is there to eat them or not, and each individual has their own song to sing, their own story to tell, and it is their very uniqueness and variety which make them beautiful beyond price. This is what I personally am trying to rediscover.

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 08:55:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, that was two very beautiful and heartfelt posts from you - they speak of the crux of what I became acutely aware of during my time with this premie. I have also been aware of it in myself, as you (painfully) are, and probably some of the rest of us here. I noticed it not long after receiving Knowledge, in fact - it was a numbing feeling, that seemed to dull the intense waves of emotion I used to feel at simple things like the sound of rain falling on a late summer's evening. (Has anybody else noticed this sort of thing? I'd be very interested to know.) That's not to say that I haven't felt proper emotions since receiving Knowledge - obviously I have, especially in the context of relationships, but there is also a subtle flattening that I still haven't been able to overcome. Maybe this will happen when I start posting under my real name and come out to all premie friends as an ex! This remains to be seen. I said in a post to Dep the other day that he should maybe consider creativity of some sort as an alternative to the (quite possibly futile) attempt to spend his life seeking spiritual enlightenment. In my own experience, and I think in the experience of many others, not just premies, the pusuit of enlightenment for its own sake brings a lot more grief than joy. I loved your story about the man at the end of his life and the playground. It reminds me of a quote I once read by an old lady who said if she could have her life again she would have spent more of it dancing barefoot in the woods.... I went to a programme in my home town a few years back and had a very bleak experience. All the life, love and joy seemed to have gone, to be replaced by unquestioning, blind belief. I knew I didn't want to be a part of it any more, and that what had once been there no longer was. I couldn't understand or explain it at the time, I just knew I had to get away. From that time onwards, I began to find the pronouncements of premies robotic, parroted and meaningless, but at the same time I couldn't disengage from the belief I had of who Maharaji was. None of it quite seemed to add up, so I put it on the 'back burner'.....until discovering EPO.... The problem for some of us, as I see it, is that over those years of involvement we have subscribed to a world view and a sort of magical thinking that is incredibly difficult to shake off, particularly as a lot of us became involved while we were still in our formative years. I was only 21 when I received Knowledge and was going through an 'existential crisis' at the time, which Knowledge then seemed to solve by giving me easy answers and a code to live by alongside the meditation, devotion and everything else. What we will never know is how would we have solved these existential crises a lot of us were going through in the absence of Maharaji? Would we have chosen options that would have taken us forward into a more fully engaged life? Would we have developed stronger characters as a result? We'll never know the answers to these questions, though I must say they have been haunting me lately. The only way forward, though, it seems to me, is to unravel the layers somehow, through a continual process of examination, retain the good, and find a new way of living. For me personally, Dep's idea of pursuing an alternative spiritual path doesn't appeal to me at all, but each to their own. Psychotherapy can be very helpful for examining one's childhood and discovering the drives and needs that may have been partly responsible for driving some of us towards a devotional path. Much more to say on all this but I've got to go now. Lots of love to you AV, Livia

Subject: To Livia From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 14:43:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia Drop me a line sometime wudya please. Blank email will do. Love Opie opie6121@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: To AV From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 11:06:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, we seem to be unravelling the same thread, your post made me quite tearful, not for pity, but for knowing that my voice can be truly heard, as so can yours, and so many others who may not be able to express their feelings at this time. About your numbness, I want to write this as succinctly as I can, but if I sound faltering, its because I am breaking uncharted waters also; do you know the idea of Father sky and Mother earth?; Consider for a moment that these are our archetypal heavenly Parents; parents that have borne us into existence from the pure and endless spirit of eternal giving, the giving of life itself; and that our heavenly Father is charged with the care of our seeking, our discovery of all that is heavenly and unseen, our inspiration, our creativity and our wisdom from above. And our Heavenly Mother is our connection with the earth in whose garden we play, who gives us the fragrance of flowers, the softness of rain, the power of sacred sites to transform and transmute ourselves, where our ancient forbears erected circles of stone at these nodes of the sacred energy, the very pulse of the Earth itself. What child could ever choose one parent over another?? What use is there of discovering the law of Heaven if we are strangers to our own garden ?? What is the point of becoming so enlightened that we are 'no earthly use to anyone' ?? Your Mother and Father love you equally, without condition or second thought, when did you last greet them equally and tell them of your love and of your pain...?? We are still in the energy of the full moon, if you go out alone and find a place in nature which is still and calm, you may talk , and cry if that's what is needed, and tell your story, you will be heard. We are not alone in creation, how could that be when my breath is your breath?, and even the most cynical mind has the dull remeberance of a forgotten dream which aches to be recalled, of a time when laughter filled all of our eyes, silently and without false emotion. Let your Mother remind you once again of the sound of rain, and the magic of birdsong where a thousand voices beckon you to be part once again of your own magic kingdom. With Love. AV

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:50:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, that was beautiful, you are a sweetheart. I'm sorry to hear you are in some pain. It will all come right if you keep on unpeeling the layers, one by one. I showed the 'Passages' video to my (non-premie) partner last night. He's always been scathing about Maharaji and the whole thing - smelt a rat as soon as he first encountered it in the late 70's. I've been talking to him about the forum and wanted him to see it to fill him in on the history. He now says he has an even lower opinion of it than before, and felt the premies on the video looked and seemed mentally ill. I have to say I agree - I could hardly believe it the first time I saw it. They also seemed fundamentally dishonest to me, not least Ron Geaves going on about Maharaji's asceticism. OK OK, maybe that was true in 1971 but how about now? Or 1973 or 1975 or in fact any time after the first few weeks in the West? After reading Glen's thing posted by John McGregor today, it's obvious that 'Passages' was made to counter EPO etc. Any premie falling for it needs to look at themselves very, very hard, because what they are believing is basically a revised pack of lies from start to finish. But back to you, AV. That post you just wrote was beautiful - thanks. I felt a lot of warmth from you, and kindness, and it's much appreciated in these strange, deconstructing times. You are very right about enjoying the fruits of the earth, I may not put it the way you did, but I recognise and appreciate the sentiments behind what you are saying. On that working trip last week it was most noticeable that the devout premie amongst us was the only one unable to fully experience and open up to the beauty of the scenery we found ourselves in. The feeling of the sadness of summer rain that I used to feel, was, I think, tied up with a feeling of the mysteriousness of life. That feeling disappeared when Knowledge appeared to answer that mystery. I then thought I had an explanation for the mysteriousness, so the feeling disappeared. As we slowly deconstruct the ideas we imbued along with the experience, I think and hope that those old feelings will return. But after 30 years, there is an awful lot to deconstruct. Bit by bit by bit, we'll get there in the end. Lots of love to you, Livia

Subject: To Livia and AV From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 13:26:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been following your dialogue with interest. AV: I don't know any people that I have recieved K recently, but certainly amongst long term pwk there is an inbuilt emotional comfort zone implanted that says 'The Lord Is Here and he will make everthing alright..' I noticed this in Long Beach after having not practiced K or seen M regularly for 7 years. As I sat in the hall, listening to M, I began to think 'yeah, it would be really nice to just let go to That Place and be swept into a world where I would be cared for on all levels of existence.' Having had developed some self awareness and descrimination, I snapped out of it. Since that very graphic moment, I've referred to that feeling of wanting to be saved as the White Knight Syndrome. One day, the White Knight in shining armour will save me. It's very Christian actually. Livia:I noticed it not long after receiving Knowledge, in fact - it was a numbing feeling, that seemed to dull the intense waves of emotion I used to feel at simple things like the sound of rain falling on a late summer's evening. (Has anybody else noticed this sort of thing? I'd be very interested to know.) YES!!! As I've posted (probably too often), since 9.11.01 I have been dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The silver lining in all that has been a reclaiming of my emotions. These days I can cry at a movie or even watching the orphan orca that swims near our island ferry dock. My heart is open and I feel compassion where I used to feel pity. I have been musing lately that, had I still been practicing K when 911 happened, I might not have had such a strong reaction. It's not been a picnic at times but well worth a bit of discomfort to become more whole. I am very grateful that I've been able to become a more emotional person. Love, R

Subject: Re: To Livia and AV From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 10:05:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My heart is open and I feel compassion where I used to feel pity. I thought you saying that was very interesting. Do you think one of the things that happens to you as a result of living in Maharaji's world is that you feel pity rather than compassion? I think it might be. Think of the way premies laugh derisively along with Maharaji when he has a laugh at someone's expense. It's really quite ugly. Think of the way premies generally find it pointless helping anyone unless there's the hidden agenda of bringing them to Knowledge. Sure, they can think of that as the ultimate altruism, but is it, really? Or is it borne of the need to convince other people of something that they are not, in their heart of hearts, totally sure of themselves? As a way of convincing themselves? Pity, yes, you've got it. Pity along with condescension. Pity along with a smug feeling that premies are the fortunate ones who have a superior knowledge. Pity because we were open, and they, poor souls, weren't. Oh dear! With love, Livia

Subject: Re: pity/compassion/smugness From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 12:09:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think one of the things that happens to you as a result of living in Maharaji's world is that you feel pity rather than compassion? I'm not sure I can draw that conclusion, though it might have been true. Funny that thought just popped out so I must be feeling it. Your take on pity/compassion/smugness is quite good so I'm glad my comment sparked your thoughts. Gosh, are we having satsang as in the company of truth? For myself, having the rude awakening (pun intended) around 911, gave me a chance to open up to my emotions in a way M&K did not allow or foster. In fact, emotion was considered 'mind' or 'maya' so any expression other than a bliss, longing or gratitude was frowned upon. Funny that M uses the phrase 'Only By Compassion' on bone China teacups and such but, for the life of me, I see no compassion forthcoming from his world. He may think that compassion is lowering himself to try and hammer some sense into his devotees. But to be compassionate, one has to empathize as in having a real life experience of what suffering is. To do that, one needs introspection and I see know evidence of M being introspective. Narcissistic but not introspective.

Subject: Re: To Livia and AV - great stuff From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 13:56:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With all these great new writers like AV and Livia, I think we can now retire, Richard. Thanks guys. But could you stop posting on weekends as I have to work. :C)

Subject: Re: premie mindset From: wolfie To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 13:31:02 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, good describtion, it's easy to relate to. Of course I watched similar behaviour, it's one symptom. I see this mindset, to act like one lives in a parallel univers in someothers people lives too. I think M is only the excuse not to leave it and come down to earth. Premies are a gathering of people who have simalar neurotic conditiones. Somehow it is not so easy to accept our human nature, so it is more easy to drift away in ideas, who or what we are. We have the tendency to be not the one we are supposed to be. The world is full with that problem. M fullfills the need to stand irrational or not integer behavior. M is the giver of the illusion that we can participate with divine power and this pleases the weary and weak ones and that brings glory to even wasted lifes. What a pitty....it happend to me too. But it happend to me because I gave permission to, because I thought the highest goal is the only goal I should percieve, how elitaer. thanks for your story....ciao .wolfie

Subject: doing overtime, wolfman? From: unohoo To: wolfie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 02:12:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or 'ave yah gotchyr self a 'puter?happy easter und dicke eier !!

Subject: Mischler's ideas, does gm have an LD? From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:54:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nearly thirty years later and what is so different from the way Mischler suggested he change his image and the org? Maybe we should be gratedful that gm is a little slow, if not intellectually challenged. If Mischler can see what's happening he must be pissing himself with laughter!

Subject: Yes. And I remember when I heard about him. From: Sulla To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 10:50:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember when I heard the story about Bob Mischler long ago, back in South A. and how the subtle moral was: Did you see what could happen with the ones who mess with the Lord? and it was like, Oh my God! M. must be very powerful, and I got that chill in the spine and bumps in the arms. I can feel it now, even the scary sensation. I can't believe how I can feel it now. Gosh! How did the plane crash? My husband and I were wondering if it was really an accident, or something similar as in Fakiranand episode with the journalist, a plain case of revenge.

Subject: No Sulla From: Richard To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 13:34:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please, don't imagine a conspiracy around Bob, Eileen and their unborn child's deaths. They were vacationing (in the Florida Keys I recall) when Bob had a heart pain. They were being MediVacced to a hospital when the accidental crash occurred. You are not the first to have wondered about the coincidence and tried to overlay Karma, etc on a tragic loss. IMHO it is not appropriate to seek conspiracy in this accident, though.

Subject: It's good to know that it wasn't as we were told. From: Sulla To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 21:34:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were not imagining a conspiracy, we were wondering since we didn't know how that happened. For that reason I asked. Thanks for the information.

Subject: And also in Argentina in the 70's... From: Sulla To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 11:17:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My husband told me how during a big program in Argentina (in the 70's) Bob got so mad with M. that he even threw things on the floor, in front of everybody making a lot of noise. My husband and the other premies were paralyzed, in shock, terrified witnessing that, in complete disbelief. After that, Bob left and M. went on with his satsang as if nothing had happened.

Subject: Re: Allah sees the black ant From: Al Chidr To: Guajira Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 05:36:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: go ahead man, enjoy your trip, pass on some of the stuff you're on !!

Subject: FA, where's Guajira's original post ? From: Al Chidr To: Al Chidr Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:07:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the post I reponded to?? 2 far out 4 u?

Subject: Guajira posted under too many names From: gerry To: Al Chidr Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 10:34:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, posting under several names especial when one has a browser identical to Dave Roupell's bodes poorly for the poster.

Subject: A small Davidoff.... From: PatD To: Guajira Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:31:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you cheap fuck, what's this small shit,don't you know how to entertain the Lord?

Subject: that's OK Guajira From: cq To: Guajira Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:09:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when I first started posting here, my posts were just as incomprehensible. You'll get over it.

Subject: what you're relying know no limits??? From: cq To: soltera y sabrosa Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 14:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if it helps you to see me as a 'brother in deviation mode', then ... if it helps us communicate, I guess that's a start. No limits you say? No, bro, (sis?) it may be sub-liminal (under the threshold/limit) but it's still limited. M conned a lot of people with his 'knowledge is eternal, unchanging' spiel. So how come the techniques have changed? Insurance liability perhaps? Keep breathing forever, if you can.

Subject: Anth see the sycophant. From: AJW To: Guajira Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:48:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guajira, You seem to be preaching semi-comprehensible shite. You remind me of the Jesus freaks who speak in tongues. One of them tried to strike me down dead in Nottingham market square once, while frothing at the mouth. What's this, 'It's all an illusion bullshit.' You need a good kick in the bollocks to bring you back to reality. Are you saying this beautiful creation doesn't really exist? And that the only reality is the sound of blood running over your eardrums, the patterns everyone sees when they press their eyeballs and the taste of snot? Your diatribe reads like you want to be a poet, but you can't hear the muses over the noise of the crickets, due to having your thumbs stuck in your ears. You're in a tacky little religious cult, with a screwed up, Mickey Mouse Guru. It's time to smell the bacon and eggs and come out from under your blanket. Were you on drugs when you wrote your message? Is there anything you wouldn't do, if Captain Rawat asked you? And where have all the premies gone? Anth the illusion

Subject: Re: whaaaaaaa???? From: AV To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:48:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sounds like Rumi on unspeakably bad acid to me.......

Subject: Re: whaaaaaaa???? From: who is RUMI? To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:03:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: defensive sht . Gee easy out people all the responses are of low gards. Come give me something else other than resentment of unspeakable proportions in the make. In your senses i take the bad acids and you trip.

Subject: Re: whaaaaaaa???? From: Gail the Wailler To: who is RUMI? Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 19:02:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji admits that he is a meditation teacher and his message doesn't change. After 28 years, why do you still bother to go see him. (Because you still believe he is the Lord of Lords, Host of Hosts, Messiah, etc. ... Do you really think you'd still be involved if it weren't for that?) I got less and less out of my cult activities over time. Think back to the early days. We were so full of optimism and enthusiasm; how enthusiastic can you get about Sant Ji on the satelite? The cult has just about run out of steam. I believe I was duped by Maharaji--you bet I'm bitter. I could have done a lot of other things with my time.

Subject: Re: whail no more,GAIL From: Livia To: Uirapuru Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 13:01:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Methinks you would have been a sweet person whatever you got into, Uirapuru. Just keep enjoying it, what you feel, if you really do feel this. As long as it doesn't make you feel apart from the rest of the world... With love, Livia

Subject: ME THINKS YOU TROLL [nt] From: gerry To: uirapuru Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 14:42:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: whaaaaaaa???? From: this is Rumi.... To: who is RUMI? Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:20:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: RUMI?? a sublimely beautiful mystic poet whose writings overbrim with love and joy, a source of perennial inspiration and clarity

Subject: I thought he was an Inca warrior. From: Sulla To: this is Rumi.... Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 17:51:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I thought he was an Inca warrior. From: AV To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 05:56:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If he was, he kept damned quiet about it! But , hey, waddoo eyeno

Subject: Re: whaaaaaaa???? From: Gail To: this is Rumi.... Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 20:49:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know that. Maharaji bored me to tears with Rumi's diatribe over the years until 1998. Rumi was just another dude in the GOD BUSINESS! Speaking of which, why don't you answer the questions I posed?

Subject: Rumi From: Nottm Bunny To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 23:47:53 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Yes Gail, but it was probably the way he told them. Rumi's words have inspired millions and stood the test of time - unlike Maharaji's poetry (aaaaarrrgggh)! Even some the most dedicated premies admit to squirming when he starts that. The quoting of Rumi and others is an attempt to give substance to otherwise empty rhetoric and the endless cockpit reminisces. I wish he’d quoted Rumi instead of those countless stories about Dung Beetles. Wonder what Rumi might have thought about M’s use of his poetry though? Bunny

Subject: Re: Rumi/nott.bunny From: AV To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 03:04:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yep, Bunny.......that's why I cited RUMI, he just emptied his heart and soul onto paper, and he's rescued this heart more then a few times, so where's the harm in that? you could also listen to Billie Holliday and weep, that does it too, and I don't think anyone would say she was in the God business (....not as we know it captain...)

Subject: Re: Allah sees the black ant From: OTS To: Guajira Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:36:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two questions: Didn’t you think that Gweneth Paltrow really needed a second opinion on her dress for the Oscars? And do you think the National League will adopt the designated hitter rule? Thanks.

Subject: Exactly! From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 21:06:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn’t you think that Gweneth Paltrow really needed a second opinion on her dress for the Oscars? Laurie and I said just that last night. By the way, don't be such an asshole. :)

Subject: By the Way FUCK YOU, JIM [nt] From: OTS To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:52:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Have you always had this anger problem? From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:33:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Always given to these uncontrollable outbursts, OTS, or is this just something you're going through?

Subject: Re: Have you always had this anger problem? From: OTS To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:52:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse me, Jim, but my outburst was in response to you calling me an asshole. I apologize if my response was not appropriate in your all knowing opinion. SHMUCK

Subject: Come on, OTS, get a grip From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 20:05:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, fella, I posted in complete if trivial agreement to your observation about Gwyneth Paltrow's dress. My point was light, as was yours (I think) and friendly. But then I added that comment, asking you to quite being an asshole -- punctuated, don't forget, by a :). I was trying to be friendly but also getting back at you -- in a friendly way -- for, well, for being an asshole. So what was that all about? Well, obviously it had to do with the lower thread where I had the audacity, you must think, to defend myself against Fran's agreement with some troll who was, after all, posting for one reason alone, not to make any meaningful 'points' but to try to derail the discussion about Fakiranand, that: [she] wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' I'm sorry, fella, I have every right to take issue with that just like you would. So what do you do? You post in block letters: SHUT UP ALREADY, JIM and that, my friend, was most definitely uncalled for. This isn't the first time you've done just that to me either, by the way. So, yeah, trying to respect the fact that you've recently left the cult, that you're obviously far more tender than me or other long-time exes, I would like to cut you some slack. I was trying, believe it or not, to tell you to knock off that crap in something of a joking way. But all that either passed you by or you just want to fight with me or something. I don't get it, frankly. When I first asked you for some sort of background, you accused me of trying to pry. I've tried to be friendly to you before but to no avail. You really do have an anger problem, fella, and I'm not going to back down from you, no way. Play it however you wish. It's up to you.

Subject: Jim, OTS - big hug. From: Leo Buscaglia To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 12:41:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We all see how very much passion you each have. It's time to remember where that passion needs to be directed. Now stand facing each other and take 10 deep, cleansing breaths. Aaah, that feels good doesn't it? Now repeat after me: I (your name) am an asshole and angry schmuck just the way I am so fuck you. You, (other peson's name) are an asshole and angry schmuck just the way you are so fuck you. But the real reason we are here is to acknowledge and help others to see that Captain Rawat is an asshole and angry schmuck just the way he is so fuck him and the swan he rode in on. I (your name) now release the need to attack others or be attacked by others. I am free to be uniquely me. Now a big hug and express your love and respect for each other. Audience, a round of applause for these two brave, honest and passionate men. Peace to you all, Leo Buscaglia (Not!)

Subject: No Hugs today From: OTS To: Leo Buscaglia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 15:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, thanks for your attempt at mediation/reconciliation. I know you only want the best for our readers here and perhaps are embarrassed by my standing up to Jim’s attitude that all human beings are worthless idiots compared to lawyers. [They can’t help it.] However, I don’t buy the whole “I’m sorry” package you propose. Sorry. Canadian lawyers are of course welcome here, but I don’t have to take Jim’s name-calling lying down. Neither does anyone else. I really don’t give a shit about Jim Heller or his non-spiritual agenda or whatever the fuck is eating away at his psyche. Nor do most who read here, it appears obvious. However, he’s welcome to post to his heart’s content. I know he’s in the right place, except his head is up his ass. I will respond to Jim in whatever way I choose whenever I feel he is being too overbearing. I don’t care if anyone doesn’t like it. You don’t have to read it. And unless I’m speaking like our dear departed friend Guarji, I will not be blocked by our FA. That said, thanks, Richard, for your continuing efforts to bring peace even here.

Subject: In your imagination, you mean From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 20:08:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You forgot to mention that your opinion that I look down on non-lawyers is in your imagaination only, OTS. You should mention that for completeness.

Subject: I'm soooo busted! From: Richard To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 16:45:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS, Was it really that obvious that it was moi who posed as LB? I should have forseen your response would be similar to what it is. I totally support you, Jim and everyone else in posting as you please. No problem there. I was just trying to use a little humor to diffuse the tension. I originally saw both Jim's and your response as sort of a mix-it-up buddy thing. Not real animosity but boundry setting which is healthy. So my posting as LB was, I thought, a continuation of that mood. OK, gentleman. Keyboards from 100 paces. Ready. NOW! Richard, can't we all get along and fry the fish we came to fry?

Subject: have you joined the JIABB, OTS? From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 16:20:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JIABB = Jim is a Bully Brigade? I could have sworn that you were the one who posted some insulting one-liner about the thread on meditation and I've seen you sneer at other spiritual mumbo-jumbo with your dry sense of humor so what's with this sudden about-face: You said: ''I really don’t give a shit about Jim Heller or his non-spiritual agenda or whatever the fuck is eating away at his psyche. Nor do most who read here, it appears obvious.'' I sure hope the JIABB have not been getting to you via their little email gossip groups because this seems to be a very strongly worded putdown of Jim that does not jive with your on-line interactions with him. In fact it was you who started the name-calling by telling him to shut up first. Okay, that may not be name-calling exactly but it was insulting. Speaking as someone who is also hated and loved by opposing factions, I would advise you to be very cautious about arriving at conclusions based on email gossip behind the scenes. Unless of course there is something else that we don't know that is ''eating away at your psyche.'' You anger would be better directed at Rawat and not at someone who started something that has helped us all get free of the cult.

Subject: Thanks Pat From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 16:44:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I AM angry. I was angry at Jim for riding Francesca and did tell him to shut up. I've reached no conclusions. I'm angry at Rawat and his whole sick trip. I'll just chill for a few months and get back to you off-line because I believe you may be 100% correct. I guess I'm doing more harm than good here. So, Peace everyone. Have a great Spring. (or Fall in Australia) Thanks for your concern about me. Catch you later.

Subject: My dear OTS From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 17:35:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you were being the chivalrous gentleman riding to Fran's defense but I also know that you're probably still feeling rather raw and emotional. I acted and over-reacted on the forums for mnay months before I cooled off. You know I wish you only the best in life.

Subject: One thing, please, everyone From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 20:14:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, Thanks to both Pat and Richard for trying to mediate. Sincerely. However, I think that any fair reading of that thread would never lead to any conclusion other than that I was defending myself against Fran's criticism that the troll was right and that I did speak out of turn. Fran bristled at my response but that's not my fault.

Subject: Thanks Jim From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:40:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said to OTS above in so many words, I value both of your intensities and diverse opinions. I'd hate to lose either of your contributions by seeing an unwinnable pissing match continue. It was not my intent to tell anyone what to post. Just trying to be the funny mediator - an old family pattern as 4th of 5 kids. The same goes for Francesca's and your disagreement. I hold no illusions that we'll all get along. In fact, it is in our diversity that we are strong. (Jesus, I sound like a freakin' politician.)

Subject: Sorry, I forgot -- to OTS From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 20:15:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Leave if you want but don't ever say I wasn't supportive of you here because I was. I've enjoyed and respected much of your input and tried at various times to be friendly with you.

Subject: Hey, what you got against the swan? (nt) From: cq To: Leo Buscaglia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 14:45:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: FA - it's time to dump this troll. From: Richard To: POROSSO, Guajira, et al Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 13:45:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: POROSSO, Guajira, soltera y sabrosa and uirapuru are screen names apparently being used by one poster. He-she-it(?) was amusing to play with for awhile but now is obviously here to disrupt. Even though his-her-it's first post was responded to, he-she-it has not chosen to speak in a language recognizeable to anyone but him-her-it. So far this person hasn't been coherent, choosing to speak in mystical metaphore rather than engaging in conversation. Sorry anonymous mystical one, but there is a conversation going on here and you're not conversing. Now don't start in on calling this a hatefull club or something. Premies, R2 for example, are conversed with if they at least attempt familiar language useage and stick to a consistent screen name. Your post above shows you to be a pathetic drive-by name caller. Perhaps your time would be better served foregoing the hallucinagenics and doing more 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Subject: Ooops! FA From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 15:04:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't mean to gut the thread. Now the remaining posts look like we are talking to the wall. Sorry about that. I just wanted to see if he-she-it could be persuaded to adhere to forum guidelines. A warning may have been in order. Sorry to push the panic button.

Subject: It's only Roupell, don't sweat it From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 15:16:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talking to Roupell IS like talking to a wall. Deletion is the only thing that 'works.' I let him post for a while and then he goes ballistics posting as several different 'people.' Homey don't play that game no mo'.

Subject: Your Lying Mr LYING From: DR To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 23:17:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to prove your 'honesty' and 'integrity' to the forum ? You know fucking well that poster isn't me. Very simple son - just post the Full IP address of the poster and compare it to mine. I don't need to play weirdo games with words. Mine hit exactly where they are targetted - and with spectacular success. BTW. You don't 'let' me do anything. I do as I do. You have nothing to do with it. Sorry.

Subject: You're right, Roupell From: PatC To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 23:31:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe gerry couldn't be bothered to look for the IP number because all of you premie trolls are Borg anyway. you all sound the same. For instance funny how you and Quiet both use the phrase ''band of budgies'' a lot. Now you are Quiet, aren't you?

Subject: You're right, Pat From: jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:02:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: they are 'one heart loving their Lord'(but comically unsyvchronised). I haven't been around much lately and have just read thru some of the recent nessages on these forums. dr, quiet , deborah, cw...all obviously premies, they may as well be the same person. All the best Jethro

Subject: Thanks, Jethro - much appreciated [nt] From: PatC To: jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:39:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Me, an ex premie law student??!! From: The Doc To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 23:53:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Comon Pat, you know I've been 'myself' for months now...ahem, errr...um 'Quiet' said some really naff, tasteless stuff a few weeks back, he ain't no friend of mine. I chose to use his 'Budgie' expression to gain continuity in the thread that's all. By the way, the name is 'David', if you would be so kind.

Subject: I'll be kind, David From: PatC To: The Doc Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:43:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It does seem very harsh to call you by your surname like you were when in boarding school although, if I were your prefect of dormitory, I'd... Why? Because you are incorrigible and HAVE posted as many different people lately. Don't tell me you forgot your bull elephant reference on LG? And Quiet wears the same after-shave as you. Well, actually he smells more like Cerise after she's been for a horse-ride.

Subject: My non-logic based, paranoid theory Pat From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 23:52:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is that it's one of two people. Mr Roupell aka Cerise Aka another thousand names OR Mr Bjorn. Now if it's Mr Bjorn, he's in cahoots with either DR or Cat (or both) for whenever some OZ reference is required. A simple matter of comp redirecting via servers or whatever.Hell, he may have even emigrated hahaha. I've got no real info to base this on ......and ultimately, couldn't care less anyways hahaha. Ones the same as the other, pretty much:) Cheers Dermot

Subject: Occam's razor, Dermot From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 04:17:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can eliminate Bjorn as he does post from Scandinavia. This one posts from Oz and DR lives there and has invented several semi-credible characters in the past which all end up sounding fake because DR has more imagination than writing skills. My theory is that it is the Goober drunk as a skunk and pissed with us party-poopers. I better say that's a joke before someone who doesn't know me thinks I'm serious. Hmmm? b)

Subject: Thanks, Gerry - about time [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 15:59:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Guajira, ever heard of using ... From: Richard To: Guajira Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:28:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... spell check? (Pun well intended.) Guajira, I can only imagine what you were trying to communicate but your post didn't say much at all. OK, I'll guess. Assuming you are a premie, you are saying that it's all illusion anyway so nothing matters. You don't care about M not taking responsibility for himself because nothing is real except your precious experience. Nothing is real but somehow it matters that your master is being criticized. Don't worry, it's just Lila or maybe Grace. We're all merely phantom Orcs and your pal, Frodo Rawat will win in the end. Taking your meds may help, too. A Beautiful Mind is a terrible thing to waste. Richard, bored of the rings

Subject: Casting away the shadows. From: uirapuru To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:37:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dont' take it personal richi ji. You got the first part right, but the rest i'm just realizing that you are unware that you dont' even breathe for yourself. It's where i'm coming from. Maybe you should try this med: Grab you hands, then close your nose and try to stop this living from happening then, realize why is not up to you. About matters of reaction on seen you all tryng to cover the sun with a bolter, it's a natunal flick of HU mans. Me love FRODO R. Me real. No phantom in lamentations. Bored in your only absemptiom of comtemplation of what is imutable, therefore worried about the responsability of your own existence would constitute a remedy for your boredom . The beauty of the mind lies in the fact that is only an accessory not a ruling medium. About your assumption of my premieship cannot fit a guess. About LILA and GRACE it's like water and thirst. My Pal is a cool CAT above all critiz and glitz . Admiral of reflections. The ideia of every moment being unique constitute a hokum to your analitical and minimalized process I see. Somehow you dare 'cause you know this paradiso hold no keys. Go on children in venture disorder, do your number and rest then in the laps of acceptance. Fend off poverty of judgemental order. Fuel creativity . Abundance . And last remember and salt away casting the false notion that darkness exists for itsel and not for the absence of LIGHT. Jai satchitanad for the sake of your revival. Guajira y gitana.

Subject: A bad side effect of the F7 habit From: Joy To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 06:22:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night I had the wildest dreams featuring M in a starring role. I was with him and a whole bunch of 'PAM's' and in the dream I had magically became a 'PAM' also. Only I was really pissed off at M, and letting him know in no uncertain terms (something that would never happen in real life). This only had the effect of making him get closer to me, and want to know and hang out with me more (also something that would never happen in reality). Then he was flying his big airplane with everyone on board real low through a city, dodging trees and power lines, and was trying to return it to where it took off, and I became furious with him afterwards because the only reason he had given for this behaviour was that he didn't like the food where we were going and it was better back where he had been! I was screaming and shouting at him that he'd risked all our lives just because he didn't like the food and cursing and swearing at him. Then when he was backstage getting ready to come out in full drag, I was telling some of the other PAMs that they really should think about getting their own lives and forgetting about him, as it was a dead-end street. I guess this was a subconscious way to let out my anger at what M had done in my life all those years ago. But needless to say, I was SOOOOO glad when I woke up that none of this was 'real'. For me, this is the one bad side effect of having a Forum habit, it insinuates M into your consciousness when otherwise you would never have thought of him. I found particularly disturbing that photo that was put up recently of him in the cockpit playing pilot, looking back over his shoulder (which no doubt initiated this dream), for some reason I can't get the image out of my mind. I want this jerk out of my life for good!!

Subject: The truth will out From: Lesley To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:15:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't had any dreams of that nature, for quite some time now, apart from one I had recently. Again in colourful sharp edged imagery, it told the story of my exiting. By the time I woke up, we had left the darshan bus and were headed for our own, nicely cared for, car. Though I, as so many of us, was not a part of the 'Byzantine Court', but was a member of the un x rated caste, and therefore did not observe the workings of the inner circle, nonetheless, I was affected by them. I obediently turned a blind eye to Mr Rawat's way of living, but that does not mean that it did not affect me. I lived his lie too. It's as bad as it is, and no worse. The truth, in this instance, definitely falls into the gut category of 'better out than in'!

Subject: Only for so long Joy From: hamzen To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:50:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know if this is permanent for me, but it has lasted a good few months now, if not longer, but I feel quite detached from it all now, and feel like I'm visiting here just to do my bit. Never think a moment about it when off forum, can even meditate without thinking about any connection if I fancy it, all part of the process I think. After all we do have one or two neuronal connections to sort out, so it has to take time.

Subject: Dream on, Joy ! ! ! From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:15:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, You're certainly the darshan junkie. :) I recall, back in Those Days of innocence and wonder, a darshan dream would be told with much reverance and listened to in rapt awe. Many of us saw no difference between the dream world and waking reality so a darshan dream was assumed to have great importance and meaning. I really got a kick out of you yelling at M. That must have been cathartic or at least felt good. I agree that your subconcious really needed a good rant at M and what he represents to you. Healthy indeed. Dr. Postie says to take a long walk in the English countryside and feel how great it is to be alive and free. Richard, using my Junior Shrink Club Membership Card

Subject: the more it itches! From: The more you scratch it, To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:08:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: the more you know! Read on. [nt] From: The more you lurk, To: The more you scratch it, Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:18:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How much is Maharaji to blame? From: PatW To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:09:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am responding to Bunny up here 'cos I hope that Mike Finch will respond to my questions soon, and don't want the thread to disappear too fast. Bunny wrote: Hi Patrick , I thought Mike's point was that there was no inner circle and hence no 'powerful position' in the very early days. It wasn't until the mid-eighties and instructordom when Mike had any of the privileged access to Maharaji again. That he did seem to enjoy, but I cannot remember him as one who 'Lorded it' above other premies in that superior and abusive way My memories of Mike at that time were as one who remained personally accessible and down to earth, generally well liked by most premies. His 'satsang' was more likely to contain anecdotes about his struggle with chocolate and the fridge than pretentious 'emperors clothes' drivel about how cosmic knowledge was. As far as any gloating premies are concerned, how sad for them, don't you think? - Bunny Bunny I always knew Mike as an accessible normal guy despite his 'honcho-status' (whatever that meant). In Brighton ashram he was a major source of stories about M and I often 'milked' him for all his tales. I did get his point anyway. The reason I brought up this likely scenario of current premies gloatingly dismissing Mike as another example of someone who excluded themselves from M's court because of his own agenda (as per Mischler etc.) is because I thought that Mike may have actually rather left himself open for this kind of judgement by suggesting he did actually have aspirations to 'honchohood' and omitting to blame Maharaji - for example when he says: I have been both in the inner circle, and in the outer darkness, and I found that whole dynamic very painful. The despair of being cast into outer darkness (ie losing your honcho job or M withdrawing access to him personally), and the desperate attempt to climb back up the ladder into the inner circle, for which you will do anything, is humiliating, obscene, de-humanising, and plain manipulative. Of course, we did not have to buy into it, but that goes for all our involvement. I don't think Mike deserves the predictable premie epitaph - ' Here is one who lost the plot because he valued his high position - one whose pride led to his fall - behold now how confused he has become' Ideally I would invite Mike to clarify (for these guys) how much he thinks Maharaji personally holds responsibility for encouraging people to be a part of this dehumanising hierarchical charade. Premies and Maharaji don't seem to want to look at this closely - they like the idea that it was 'our involvement' that put the spanner in the works. It's good if people like the 'Mikes' can make it crystal clear that their 'honchoness' wasn't something that they alone 'cooked up' but that Maharaji fed this attitude and did NOT have the wisdom, or wish to prevent it - in fact possibly the opposite. Mike seems to skirt around blaming Maharaji and is not clear about who exactly he thinks was 'humiliating, obscene, de-humanising, and plain manipulative'. In fact he almost sounds as if he is blaming himself by going on to say 'Of course, we did not have to buy into it, but that goes for all our involvement.' So I would repeat my questions to Mike: Mike, are you critical of DLM 'honchos' or Maharaji personally for the fact that this hierarchy of priviledged 'inner circle' types came into being and thrived? Do you think Maharaji cultivated this inner circle for some particular reason or was it just human nature to form one? Did he encourage some sort of sick 'court' dynamic do you think? As you know premies will all say that Maharaji himself has been always keen to cut out the organisation and to talk directly to 'his premies'. I am not quite sure what you think what you have described tells us about M if anything. Obviously it tells us that most premies (like yourself) easily fell into the trap of wanting to be a part of a 'special' inner circle and that those dynamics led to pain for those who became excluded. I can't help thinking that premies will just be gloating over your words - 'Oh yes, Mike -how typical - he's just moaning because he couldn't be in a powerful position any more - it's just sour grapes etc. He should have been more humble' How would you answer this accusation? Maybe some of our other occasional 'honcho' posters (also usually by the name of 'Mike'!) would like to add their comments too. Also what do current premies think about M's part in this culture of exclusivity - was it really all our fault?...care to comment?

Subject: He is the managing director after all. From: hamzen To: PatW Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:44:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What would you say of any MD who'd failed so abysmally through so many incarnations over a 30 year period to get a functioning organization. Either all the workers are completely stupid, in which case why does he attract such followers, or he is COMPLETELY useless. Any normal org and the shareholders would have sacked him more than two decades ago. Have a medieval despot run an org, and you get a medieval org. Organizational cultures don't thrive in a vacuum, they are set from the top.

Subject: Re: How much is Maharaji to blame? From: Mike Finch To: PatW Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 13:09:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK Patrick, here is my answer to your questions. Do you think Maharaji cultivated this inner circle for some particular reason or was it just human nature to form one? Did he encourage some sort of sick 'court' dynamic do you think? ... are you critical of DLM 'honchos' or Maharaji personally for the fact that this hierarchy of priviledged 'inner circle' types came into being and thrived? I would characterise M's 'court' as Byzantine. A Byzantine court means a court where you have one undisputed ruler who is untouchable, and who rules by absolute decree, whether his decrees are whims or well thought out directions. One of the main characteristics of a Byzantine court is that everyone feels unsafe of their position, for two reasons: first, because they have that position due to the decree of the ruler, which can change at any time for any arbitrary reason; and second, because everyone in the inner circle feels the same, there are constant plots and sub-plots and general upheaval as everyone jockeys to keep their position, or better it, or prevent others from usurping it. Some political leaders use this as a deliberate strategy to keep themselves in power, reasoning that the inner circle are too busy keeping their own position to challenge the leader (Hitler is supposed to have done this - a good example of a modern day Byzantine court). As far as M is concerned, I believe that once you have the characteristics of an absolute unassailable leader, whose word is absolute, and is the sole source of decrees, then a Byzantine court is close to being unavoidable. So in your words, it is 'just human nature' for one to be formed given the leader. So I don't blame M in the sense that I don't believe that when this all begun in around 1972, he deliberately strategized 'in order to keep my Perfect Master status safe, I will form a Byzantine court...'. However, I do think he understands clearly the dynamic, and uses it, and spends a considerable amount of energy keeping it in place. Are the DLM honchos to blame too ? Yes of course. M has often said 'the student needs the master, and the master needs the student'; in a like manner, a Byzantine court needs the buy-in of both the unassailable ruler and the sycophantic courtiers in order to function. (M has also said the student needs the master, but the master doesn't need the student' but we will let that pass!) I can't help thinking that premies will just be gloating over your words - 'Oh yes, Mike -how typical - he's just moaning because he couldn't be in a powerful position any more - it's just sour grapes etc. He should have been more humble' ... How would you answer this accusation? Well, the short answer is that I couldn't give a damn, and wouldn't waste any energy answering this. For the record, I no longer believe that Maharaji has the special power I attributed to him for 30 years - that of being able to reach into me in some way in order to make my practise of Knowledge work. This is what defines a premie I think. It has always been the defining belief - whether you think of M as being the Lord, Perfect Master, just a regular master, or whatever - he is what he is because of this belief. Because I no longer believe it, there is also no need to practise the Knowledge - it is just another meditation practise, and stands or falls on its own merits; it is no longer backed up by Maharaji's grace, since there is no such thing. That is why I am no longer a premie. If others want to attribute it to sour grapes, then so be it. I really could not care. -- Mike

Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM****Thanks, Mike [nt] From: OTS To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:57:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well said Mike, nt From: Tim G To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 05:58:06 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message:

Subject: Thanks Mike. From: PatW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:00:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Mike. Interesting reply. I especially liked the 'Byzantine court' bit. You seem to have 'detached' from the whole Maharaji trip rather 'neatly' may I say. (in the original English sense of the word 'neatly' ie. 'not fussily'). You don't give a damn what people think about you and you seem confident - nay positively basking in your new-found 'enlightenment' (can I use that word? No? - well you think of a word then!). I am quite inspired by your ability to move on and enjoy other meditations etc. and indeed to put M squarely behind you with apparently little resentment or bitterness. I confess I am still haunted by the whole thing and smarting about the injustices. I guess I have that streak of Scorpionic vengeance or possibly the Libran need to See Justice Done (Taran-tara). Something inside me still wants Maharaji to apologise. For my friends who 'Will Not Hear The Truth' to have their eyes opened - for the remaining prisoners of the Pied Piper to be freed! Am I really too sick for words? I know I should get out more.

Subject: 100% From: OTS To: PatW Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:28:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, I’m not sure where this thread is headed because it’s so clear that everything that happened was the result of the Rawats wanting to become filthy rich Westerners. For instance, what does Rajaji do in 2002? Does he have a business? A job? How does he support himself and his family? How does he have time to do a tour all over Europe if he has a business to run? I don’t get it. I cannot dismiss the memory from my mind of when I first moved into the ashram and dedicated my entire life for the rest of my life (Ha!). I don’t know if you understand what that means to a person -- to make the conscious decision to dedicate your entire life to the Living Lord who has incarnated himself in this terrible Vietnam War era to save the world. The omniscient and omnipotent one. Come to save us. Come to free us from our minds. Come to save the world! I was on his side. I was blessed, I thought. I was living with 12 other people -- 10 young men and 2 young women. The house was a tiny tiny three bedroom 1-1/2 baths in a funky college-town neighborhood. The two sisters slept in one tiny bedroom. The second bedroom was made up with a bed but was ONLY used by a travelling (Indian) mahatma. OFF LIMITS! Nine of the 10 young men (including myself) slept on the first floor. That’s right: ON the first floor. No bedding. The first floor had a kitchen, half bath, and a small room that was the living room/dining room. The first floor had been turned into a satsang hall with a large altar with chairs for and pictures of The Holy Family -- RajaJi, Bal BhagwanJi, Bole Ji, Mata Ji. There was a multicolored parachute tacked to the ceiling of the entire first floor with the center coming off of the altar. Wow! The third bedroom was for the other young man -- the General Secretary. What a title! He had a bed, a private bedroom, the keys and title to the house’s automobile, a subscription to TIME Magazine (for his eyes only), and a Telex, which only he could operate. He was in contact with the National Headquarters via Telex. (If you don’t know how a Telex machine operates, you punch a tape with holes in it; and then feed the tape into the reader which sent your Telex.) This was in December 1972. Now, you tell me. Wasn’t that General Secretary a little above the rest of us lousy ashram premies -- poor, worthless, mini-saints? You bet. He was the one in contact with Arthur Brigham, the regional coordinator. He was the one in contact with the Denver international DLM headquarters. We were in touch with our vacuum cleaner and the dirty dishes. The General Secretary loved power. He demanded respect. He controlled your service, your future, your physical life. Honcho? Yes. These General Secretaries were all cut using the same scissors out of the same mold. Bob Mishler and his anointed friends, including a few sycophant women. Look, don’t be blind. See what is going on and what was going on. It has not changed in 30 years. Divine Light Mission stunk. Maharaji stinks and is a rich son of bitch. Elan Vital is toast. Raja Ji is a loser, but a fun dining companion, I’m sure. The Rawat Family is responsible and to blame for EVERYTHING. We premies were just schnooks and got taken. It happens. I hope all premies will read EPO and find out what really is up.

Subject: Re: 100% From: PatW To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:41:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what does Rajaji do in 2002? Does he have a business? A job? How does he support himself and his family? How does he have time to do a tour all over Europe if he has a business to run? I don’t get it. RajaJi was just in London I gather doing an 'Introductory event'. I suppose Maharaji must think he is particularly clear to send him on the road doing this! My take is that they have a fine income from investments. They probably call themselves 'investors' these days don't you think?

Subject: Exclusion and M's blame From: PatD To: PatW Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 20:52:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only person I ever knew who'd been close & then given the cold shoulder was the Robert guy I mention in the thread below. I don't know why he was excluded because at the time being a good(maybe not so good) little premie I didn't want to listen to stories about M from someone who was clearly mentally unhinged. It was the mutual friends who were trying to help him who told me that he'd been Rawat's bag man in the very early days....I didn't really want to hear that either to tell the truth,just fire up the next chillum,& put off the guilt for spacing out & mixing with people who were totally anti-M to another day. Now I'd guess from the recollection of 20yr old fragments of conversations that I was uneasy having, + what has come to light as a result of the internet,that poor old Robert was given the bum's rush when a less risky way of laundering the money was worked out. However,being excluded from the presence of the Lord led to insanity & an attempted suicide in his case. Seems to me that the blame for that lies squarely on the shoulders of the boy god, whose actions,whether directed by others or not,were entirely self serving. The occasional 2 minute chat wouldn't have held up his mission in life. How can anyone get close to a psychopath anyway? Whatever he was as a child, by the time he came West he was already ruined imo,& then it just got worse.

Subject: Guru mania From: Fan To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 10:56:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat D, I have read your remarks just after reading the darshan stories posted on Life's Great. Quite a juxtaposition. Guru mania is indeed a scary phenomenon. From the age of eight, Prempal has been treated with adoration. He takes the escalator at a mall and shops for toys and he is treated literally like a god. People bliss out just to catch a glimpse of him, or they sit for hours just gazing at his face. If you are, in fact, a god, then such treatment would be healthy, I suppose. But what does this kind of treatment do to an ordinary human being? The Beatles knew that Beatle mania was all fun and nonsense. They kept their heads on their shoulders, more or less. But what happens when you actually believe the lie!?! Mr. Rawat tells his 'lovers' that he cares about them, not personally, but in a way that is more real than the personal. To all appearances, he actually believes that when a person does him service of any kind, it will be to their benefit. Does he really believe that? Does he ever leave room for doubt in his mind? Prempal once took the $200,000.00 inheritance of one of his young female followers, leaving her destitute. He seemed to have no qualms about doing so. Such stories are repeated over and over again throughout the years, just as the blissed-out darshan stories are repeated. And all of this is supposed to have something to do with the Infinite reality behind the maya. Mr. Rawat's mind is a scary thing to contemplate.

Subject: More on Guru mania From: Fan To: Fan Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:14:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another juxtaposition: An aspirant considers whether or not to approach the guru. She is advised, by the guru himself, that she should not do so unless she is prepared to be undone. She is further advised, by an ex-follower of that guru, that 'being undone' will mean giving more and more to the guru and getting back less and less - an ever-increasing demand that crosses a line of voraciousness that no teacher or helper should ever think about crossing. The guru is the anti-Buddha, he is the anti-liberationist. He violates the essential integrity of the individual. Beware, those who are attracted to the process of undoing yourself to devote to the guru. Beware of the human being who acts as a god. -Paraphrased from the Daist Forum, at lightmind.com/daism, posted by Elias in response to Ginger on March 25 and 26.

Subject: More on Guru mania-watch 'Being There' From: Gail To: Fan Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 17:15:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The movie, 'Being There' with Peter Sellers explains the whole phenomena really well. The little lie--that the Lard was the Lord of the Universe--became the centre of a misshapen, black pearl. We kept trying to put good layers on, but what can you do when the core is rotten!

Subject: Re: rotten to the core From: AV To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 17:44:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got an apple in darshan line once, when I bit into it it was rotten inside, thought I was being told I was rotten inside too, and was freaked out for a long time after wards..

Subject: My view on the kings' courts From: Jean-Michel To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:05:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From what I understand, the Rawats family has been more or less treated like a king's court for a couple of decades before Prem appeared. It was a cultural thing. I assume they were not wealthy people coming from a wealthy or aristocratic background, in spite of their 'residence' in Dehra Dun and maybe a couple of small ashrams at that time, and in spite of Hans' supposed 'charisma'. I doubt that Hans' family was aristocratic, maybe his wifes' were, and brought some money when they married Hans. They 'played' kings for all the devotees - what else could they do, didn't have any clue on how to play the game, and were surrounded by lots of strange and illiterate people - see all the stories Prem told about that time. This is not a healthy environment. Take into account that Prem became more or less a leader when he was a teenager, surrounded by western freaks. Maybe he could play his game with his small court, but according to testimonies he was and still is a sociopath. I guess he also had to protect himself from the very guys he needed to be surrounded by, and had a very dysfunctional system working for him. I guess he kept playing with these people around him like a child. Maybe it took him a couple of years to learn this, from 1970 to 1972/73. That very immature game kept going on, and still is very likely. Who is responsible for this ? It's always been obvious that what was going on around Rawat was unhealthy and sick. But WE stayed there, fascinated by the godly figure, finding all the excuses for the situation. You couldn't expect anything 'good' coming out of such a situation. Specially because there is NO wisdom or ethics to expect from the 'teaching' offered to the devotees. I guess we can try to find every historical detail to fill the picture, and that will not change anything to the foundations, the format of the situation. Well, maybe all this is useful to illustrate the situation. Many people came and left before us. They sanw and understood quickly. We didn't. What kept us there and our blindness is what's interesting IMO.

Subject: Re: My view on the kings' courts From: wolfie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 12:59:27 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, I fully agree with your conclusion in the last sentence, that the real interesting fact is, what kept us there so long and why we were so blind. It was a symbioses between us and the whole system. When we want to analyze what has happend we should not forget, that some surrogat need was satisfied in the time we followed M. It does not lead me anywhere to blame M. Of course he acts like a king and if we put his lifstyle in relation to the Rajpuren, this are the Indian Earls and blue bloodies, it's amazing. But why I fell in the trap, to accept middle age structures? Of course it's facinating to be somehow in a kings court and still many people like it. We have a pope, the queen and we have people who believe in Mr. Bush. Hard to rationalize human behavior and the hardest thing is to see my own motives. As a premie I thought I help to bring people to a higher conciousness, I was so concvinced, but it looks like I have helped to make people more blind or at least I helped that people could make a fool out of themselfs. Now we are here writting away on this forums and we glance in our eloquents and our supreme intellctual capacaties and my statement is maybe we serve the same narcissm in us as we did in times with our sweet Lord. We want to be something speciall. My post has to be something speciall. My view has to be interresting. Now I'm not a premie any more and thís makes me very speciale, and so we go on to serve the special monster......isn't a bit like this? just what I'm thinking about.........but what is it good for.............ciao ...wolfie ...........how doI feel? Like always, with or without M, I only think different.

Subject: What kept us there.... From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 15:07:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...that's straightforward,the meditation which does do something,whatever one's explanation for the 'something',pitched as the experience of truth within. That was a good binder to the feet,then of course the total lack of information about what the supposed Incarnation was really like. I'm only speaking as one who was never near the court.Those who knew him in the flesh,as it were, will have to speak for themselves. Those who were in the ashrams have already spoken,& left when they were chucked out onto the streets. Those who resisted the pressures to join up & were looked down on for it,stepped forward into the gap to take their place in the changed divine solar system,where old friends were finally allowed to talk to one another over a pint or a spliff after being in the presence. Those who came & left quickly were maybe people who weren't susceptible to the meditation in the same way. Who knows. Just thinking out loud.

Subject: Spot on J-M From: hamzen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:38:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many people came and left before us. They sanw and understood quickly. We didn't. What kept us there and our blindness is what's interesting IMO Quite, in the hippy culture I was opart of anti-gurus was quite the norm, in fact for 18 months I did so myself. Maybe we were just that much more desperate for 'bliss', ie we'd do almost anything to not have to face this world, when his world was absolutely no different, ire completely corrupt and fucked up, quiute medieval.

Subject: Re: Spot on J-M From: OTS To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:50:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many people came and left before us. They sanw and understood quickly. We didn't. Ham: Reminds me of the recent story I heard from my wife whose client arrived at Prem Nagar back in 1969 or 1970 with the travelling hippies from UK/US: Glenn, Peter, Joan, Gary, etc. She saw through this shit in two minutes and left her friends with whom she had travelled overland all the way to Asia after only two days. She knew right away, she said. She is today a famous radio personality who has a show broadcast throughout the U.S. regarding astrology.

Subject: NO wisdom or ethics? From: Illiteraate devoteee To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 09:12:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Specially because there is NO wisdom or ethics to expect from the 'teaching' offered to the devotees.' I think it is up to each 'devotee' to decide about that for themself.

Subject: Precisely ! From: Jean-Michel To: Illiteraate devoteee Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 09:16:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's why I left, so many before me too, and so many didn't even STAY !!

Subject: The fuzzy ended finger of blame From: Lesley To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:56:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can you blame Mr Rawat for what his parents did to him? That he has turned out to be a grubby style of businessman with a predilection for playing mean games at other people's expense, thinks he's some kind of a god, or somehow worth more than everyone else, is, I guess, just being a product of his upbringing, and the environment he perpetuated around him. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that he has benefitted not one whit from the very fine people that gathered around him, and I wish him a fine mid life crisis.

Subject: Nothing fuzzy about it From: Tonette To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 09:57:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The man is middle aged, actually 44 to be exact. If he doesn't know right from wrong by now it ain't going to happen. Yeah, let's all sit around the kitchen table at age 80 and blame our deprived upbringing and messed up parents for our short comings, our mistakes and by all means our ethics. Kinda gets us off the hook, don't you think? The buck stops here. And Maharaji is very good at that. Tonette

Subject: Re: The fuzzy ended finger of blame From: Patrick W To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 06:14:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I can see that the need to blame is tied up with not fully understanding the historic and complex imfluences that made Maharaji and his father 'play king' as JM so rightly puts it. That incidentally sounds very much like the whole 'Lila' idea. I think Guru's Divine Lila is a down to earth 'role playing game' . The finger of blame is something that exes and premies point at each other and I agree that to try and pin the blame for mistakes on one person or group of people is often done naively and maybe to strengthen one's position rather than look at the whole picture sensibly. I'm afraid David Roupell presents us below with an example of the latter when he says of his premie chums who became 'superior': I reckon they traded the simple experience of bliss, humilty and grace (and the social stigma of being a nothing, run of the mill premie) for a position of power where they 'appeared' to be closer to the action -but have since proved themselves to be masked invaders bent on gathering envy and admiring looks from innocents like us. These people were extremely unnerving and ugly. Posing as 'higher' beings to exert personal power games over the weary and the weak. We had monitors at my bording school just like that. David seems to be falling into the simple (be divided and conquered by the hierarchy) trap of concluding that his school prefects (whom he likens to co-ordinators in DLM etc.) were inherently bad and that they somehow aspired to authority and then abused it. My experience of prefects at school was that when any kids were given authority (whether they had aspired to it or not) it usually corrupted them in some way in that they became part of a social model that necessarily 'looked down' on their lower peers. To their equals however they were more acceptable and understood of course. It is clear to me that once you have any type of organisation with a hierarchical structure, that this is absolutely inevitable for us humans to feel a certain amount of envy etc. for those who have 'earned' more privilege and also of course, it is natural to at least exercise some 'self congratulation' when ones efforts to rise in the hierarchy are rewarded. Remember one relies always on the leader to award promotion -Maharaji did not particularly favour 'self-promotion' although I have to say that it certainly went on to some degree -with varying amounts of sucess. I therefore would take some issue with David Roupell when he sweepingly says that coordinators etc.'traded the simple experience of bliss, humilty and grace (and the social stigma of being a nothing, run of the mill premie) for a position of power'. Maharaji certainly encouraged us to be all those things and those 'co-ordinators' usually started as those very humble premies etc. I did. Maharaji made it very clear that an equally important part of the path for allpremies was to do 'service'. This is where, without any social-climbing or mixed motives required, the simple humble premie found him or herself under pressure to act as a part of an organisation with all the attendant dynamics. Also remember that Maharaji made it very clear that to be closer to him (in any service capacity) was a blessing. So it was a Catch 22 really. He told us to aspire to service positions in effect. So the more you surrendered and gave your time to M via the organisation, the more that you were envied or conversely (as Roupell does) accused of wanting to be superior. You couldn't win. As soon as you were given service that involved co-ordinating others or giving a lot of 'satsang' you became 'privileged' whether you wanted to or not. And the gulf was there between you and former friends who maybe didn't surrender as much of their lives. Remember that us premies did not invent our services, at least I didn't, you were told what to do. It was a lot like school actually. Personally I am very well aware that I started out as the humblest of the humble - but even now some old premie friends accuse me of having sought power because I went into the ashram. Nothing could be further than the truth. I felt that Maharaji was giving me no other option as a humble devotee. The irony is that often those 'run of the mill premies' that David Roupell admires, never had the 'humility' to give up everything to do service all the time, like they too were told, and now they are the saints and the poor old ones who made huge sacrifices back then are the 'villains'. The fact that Maharaji is content to sit by and let his former most sincere and active followers be made scapegoats in this way suggests that he is more concerned with maintaining popularity than looking after individuals who gave up their lives totally for him.

Subject: Re: why so complex??? From: AV To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:15:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I you put someone on a pedestal they have no option BUT to look down on you....unless of course you build yourself a higher pedastal and hop on it yourself! Once up there, its almost impossible to get someone down, especially if several thousand people are holding their pedestal in place....that applies generally; politicians, pop stars etc. Now most peoples credentials exist partly through ability, partly through a conpiracy of consent; if enough people conspire to agree that you are the President of the USA, then you WILL be president... But Avatars need no such consent of opinion....so who's got a guru-o-meter???? mmmmmm

Subject: M can't be challenged From: Jean-Michel To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 10:22:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would add that in a 'healthy' environment, the rules of the game would be very clear, the organization would also have some kind of philosophy and politics, and you would have a clear and accepted hierarchy. The problem is that Mr Rawat wants to rule an authoritarian way, with all the shortcomings that we know, and would never accept to have people with some power around him. That very idea seems ridiculous to me. M is so far from that perspective ! Things are bound to be this way around M. Most people in his organizations would never accept that type of environment at work. They accept it with him, up to a certain point.

Subject: Whoa Patrick From: DR To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 09:33:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've made too long and complicated a saga of my casual and admittedly 'general' comments. Please spend more time and edit your posts, we haven't got all day and night. There are good and bad apples in every basket. We simple meek folk had to deal with the more prominent egos who desired postions of importance and power - simple fact - that's all. Many of them played stupid games with us - simple fact. I don't admire run of the mills any more than I resent people in powerful, hard working positions - I have several friends in HP, I'm one of them, good people too, one doesn't have to become an arshole when given responsibility. Why defend those fools that did? One important delusion needs to be addressed - 'Anyone who gave up their lives totally for him' does NOT mean 'Anyone who did exactly as they were told and followed all rules and regulations to the letter.' I hope you agree. Does this mean that you are not interested in the Gretsch White Penguin 1958 model? It's an early electric, the familiar big solid bodied beauty, white with single cutaway, gold sparkle bound, gold plated hardware, 2 pickups. There were less than a hundred of these excellent instruments made. It's yours for $82,000 plus my commission.

Subject: Re: Whoa Patrick From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:28:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: surely you mean the Gretsch white Albatross , with groove-o-matic pickups, bi-focal whammy bar with night vision lenses (powered by military spec KT88's), 'wundaweave' comfort pad back, and split parallelogram mother of toilet seat inlays and faberge tuners.....$82k? bargain I'd say...

Subject: No From: Dr To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 23:14:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you are thinking of the White Falcon, there are single and double cutaway versions in white, silver or black. I can get you a White Falcon Custom, single cutaway, DynaSonic pickups, gold sparkle appointments, rhinestone embedded knobs and a solid spruce carved top. It's a steal at $5000 +MC. Or there's the Rancher with that large falcon style winged headstock. Daylight robbery at a measly $1600

Subject: Re: No From: AV To: Dr Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 03:11:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember one of the first white falcons in town, it took the medics half an hour to prise my nose from the music store window..(mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......g...r...e...t...s...c...h...)...

Subject: Re: Whoa Patrick From: PatW To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:38:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've made too long and complicated a saga of my casual and admittedly 'general' comments. Please spend more time and edit your posts, we haven't got all day and night. Sorry 'bout that. I reckon my post wasn't that long really - takes maybe a coupla minutes to read. Maybe it was a bit rambling I dunno. There are good and bad apples in every basket. We simple meek folk had to deal with the more prominent egos who desired postions of importance and power - simple fact - that's all. Many of them played stupid games with us - simple fact. Yup. I don't admire run of the mills any more than I resent people in powerful, hard working positions - I have several friends in HP, I'm one of them, good people too, one doesn't have to become an arshole when given responsibility. Yup again. Why defend those fools that did? I wasn't. I was maybe asking Mike Finch to defend himself a little better though against people who call him a fool. I don't think he is a fool and from what I've heard from Mike Dettmers I don't think he was or is either. One important delusion needs to be addressed - Let's do it! 'Anyone who gave up their lives totally for him' does NOT mean 'Anyone who did exactly as they were told and followed all rules and regulations to the letter.' I hope you agree. Show me anyone who totally gave up their lives for him. I don't think they probably exist. Maybe I should have said people who tried the most to surrender like he said - in ashrams. Maharaji defined the ashram once as the only place that you could surrender your life to him. I heard him say that. Ashram premies had to meet certain strict standards set by Maharaji and if you broke the rules and didn't follow the regulations, you could hardly be described as someone who gave up much of their own agenda. Does this mean that you are not interested in the Gretsch White Penguin 1958 model? It's an early electric, the familiar big solid bodied beauty, white with single cutaway, gold sparkle bound, gold plated hardware, 2 pickups. There were less than a hundred of these excellent instruments made. It's yours for $82,000 plus my commission. That wasn't my meaning no; but as it happens $82,000 for a guitar is way out of my league I'm afraid David. I have a question though about another vintage guitar that I'll email to you.

Subject: Ta Pat From: DR To: PatW Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 23:45:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yea well, if M said that to you about ashrams I guess you'd have a point of contention. With someone like me he would say..'There's no hope for you, stay away from my ashrams!' I never believed that 'surrender all' stuff (from him or anyone else) and I certainly don't now. Until he wised up to the west I think he sprouted a lot of firmly entrenched Indian concepts that I sort of felt didn't really apply to me, so I ignored them. In fact I broke every rule I could and, rather conveniently, when I started to feel a touch guilty, I heard from a PAM that M realy likes individuals who think for themselves, do their own thing and break all the rules. So I've been fairly smug about that area ever since! Yes, the Gretsch is completely beyond my reach too and I'm not convinced those early models were made THAT much better then their modern counterparts. The Japs have got it down seriously well, particularly Tama Industries who own Ibanez amongst others. My 'lawsuit' Les Paul is a whole lot better than every Gibson LP I've owned. I know there are some genuine Gibson beauties out there but also a lot of second rate models. I thought I'd found a reasonably priced '59 last month. Turned out to be a 're-issue', no thanks. I'm composing an e-reply about the ones you did mention - the Byrdland will be a nice inheritance for one of your kids! I presume it's a sunburst? I'll mail you the price.

Subject: Re: Ta Ta & tut tut old chum... From: Marshall To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 05:19:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR, I really am not sure what compells me to 'jump in' here and basically trash you, but... You are so patently pompous and pretentious(3 p words!) that I can hardly believe you are actually real, and not some caricature invented by a demented ex-premie to make current pwk's look like empty, boorish cartoonish, bafoons. Really David, Boarding school, inheritance, mummy and daddy, the estate, prepatory school, large sums of money, trust funds, family heirlooms, titles, etc. Previously you derided me as something along the lines of an envious pauper or something(haha). what do you know? Maybe I'm just a bit more low profile than, say, a predictable, low self esteemed, dare I say, snob? Maybe it's an American vs. British type thing, but I know cool, humble(normal) Brits though? So... Now it's $82,000 vintage guitars, and guitar snobbery(can you even play one well?) Whatever, if that runs foul you should try stand up comedy, You're quite a funny guy, and such a maverick premie! Bravo! You have a Narcisuss complex second only to Master Ratrot, congratulations!

Subject: Sorry Marshall From: DR To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 08:23:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I use Mesa Boogie, Hughes and Kettner and a Johnson Marquis for amplification which I consider to be substantially superior to you Marshalls which in my esteem are highly overrated, rather gross and loudmouthed. Oh, and a cute little Danelectro 30 for dragging all over the place.

Subject: Jagdeo's various ramblings From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 15:06:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some excerpts of Satsang given by Mahatama Jagdeo as appeared in 'Divine Times' Vol 7, Number 4 'Guru Puja Special' June/July 1978 The Words 'Guru Puja' means the worship of the Guru. And you know 'Guru' means one who dispels darkness and reveals the Light, dispels ignorance and imparts Knowledge of the soul, of the true self within inside. ........ But what is the truth right now? The Truth right now is revealed by our Guru Maharaj Ji. He has revealed that true self. He has revealed himself - that univeral self which is present within all of us. And so, for that clarity about who we are, what purpose there is to be in this human body, we turn to Guru Maharaj Ji. And not only we premies. Really, every human being needs Guru Maharaj Ji. Total ignorance exists when a person does not understand what his need is. That is the greatest ignorance in the world. What is his need? What is the need of human beings? To fulfill this belly? Yes, that is a need: to be alive. And when what is the need to be alive? Why to be alive? What is the need of his spiritual life? It is that Light, that Music. Life can give you the opportunity to enjoy anything of this world: Pleasure or pain or suffering or enjoyment, whatever. Without life, you can't experience anything. But who gives you life? He can give you some more beautiful experiences. And the Giver of life knows that mystery of life. If the Word can create everything in this world, then the Word can create one human body for itself. And that is called the Word made flesh. So he comes in the human body, to the human beings. To those who created in the image of God, he also comes in a human body. And when that happens, then life becomes Guru Puja. Guru Puja, every day, within inside, every moment. With every single breath there can be Guru Puja. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- So there you have it girls and boys, the true Lord is with us once more, by his Grace, know him and you will know yourself, all ignorance will be banished - forever! Mahatma Ji has spoken. Sheeesh - did I really believe all this bullshit?! The very idea that God, as some outside force, would choose to 'appear' in this way and then have Jagdeo as some sort of divine 'Apostle' to spread the message is horrible, just horrible. Here we have a man who by all accounts sexually exploited various under-age girls taking an extremely patronising tone in his 'speeches'. And talking about a man that has proved himself to be total jerk. Someone who could not organise a drinks party in a brewery. :) And now we are led to believe that Maharaji was never ever presented as the Lord of the Universe. Pure revisionism, pure gobbly-gook, pure lies. Thankfully the cult is dying as we speak The cult that now seeks to present Prem Rawat as some of meditation teacher, as some form of humanitarian leader, as some form of business leader. So what is it Mr Rawat? Lord of the Universe or meditation teacher? If you ain't the Lord of the Universe then I rather go and buy a 'Teach yourself meditation' book. Oh well .... Opie

Subject: Re: Jagdeo's various ramblings From: Marshall To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 20:44:23 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Jagdeo is the second largest slimeball on the planet (well in 'M world' anyway). Anyone who identifies thenselves as a 'follower of the master' or whatever self debasing way premies are using to describe themselves lately, should seriously, seriously check themselves. Pathetic is an incredible understatement. Being part of this cult/club/cult is practically criminal, morally and, ironically spiritualy speaking.

Subject: Re: Jagdeo's various ramblings From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 16:34:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember Jagdeo rambling on, and on, and on....with a sort of machine gunfire-type delivery. I know this could be put down to hindsight, but in all honest truth he was one of the mahatamas I just couldn't stand. There were a couple of others too, but he was one of the worst. He just used to yell and yell like a complete maniac, and people used to make their excuses and leave. (Hey! I think I need to go out and sell some Divine Times!') I used to make sure I never brought any new people when he was in town. Love, Livia

Subject: The air is thick with anticipation! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:28:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Ljubljana: Event with Raja Ji On Sunday 17 March 2002, about 150 people with Knowledge from Slovenia, Croatia and Italy gathered to listen to Raja Ji tell us about the possibility of Maharaji's Europe's events this summer. It's now 11 years since Maharaji came for the first time to Slovenia and its capital Ljubljana and held two unforgettable events. Since then many things have changed, Balkan wars have left some new states, yet that fervency to host Maharaji again has never been abandoned by those who had that privilege before. Raja Ji advised us to get as many aspirants as possible as that is the best invitation to bring Maharaji to any country. The anticipation is already in the air. Exactly how much effort and enthusiasm we are going to generate now only depends only on us...

Subject: Starting to feel like the Seventies again From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 14:15:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prague: starting to feel like the Seventies A recent introductory event in Prague attracted 22 people. It was advertised at the art gallery where the event was held. For nine of the people who came it was their first introduction to Knowledge. Local organiser Jaromir Rindler said: 'It is starting to feel like the Seventies again.' Get your hankies ready to be 'WEEPING IN MY JOY.'

Subject: Re: The air is thick with anticipation! From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 13:49:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Raja Ji advised us to get as many aspirants as possible as that is the best invitation to bring Maharaji to any country. The anticipation is already in the air. Exactly how much effort and enthusiasm we are going to generate now only depends only on us... Good grief! I touched the Lard's brother. I am truly blessed!

Subject: big time mindfuck From: Ulf To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:17:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here is something from a satsang in Marbella, Spain, april 29, 1979. I was there , and i remember the `feeling ` There are about seventy - five, seventy - six applicants who have applied to be initiators. I was going thourgh these files. And one after another- and this is only from Europa- it`s such a sad story . Because there are these premies , living in the ashram , having a beautiful experience. All of a sudden the mind comes in, kicks them out, even for three days. YOu know what i look for in an application ? The section that i look for when i am looking at the application is where it says , `` Have you ever left the ashram since first moving in ? `` I almost feel like closing it when it says yes. I mean WHY ?? How many times , for how many agés, for how many centuries, are you going to let that mind dominate you. ? This obscene thing cant always keep on going. And Guru Maharaj. JI has given us everything to stop it. Stop it rigth now. He has givin us knowledge , he has given us opportunity, he has given us grace to do satsang , service , and meditation. And we have to all get togheter an do it. everyone of us , individually . Because who in this world ,who wants us ? who in this world wants us for keeps ?? Maybe when we are little our father says `` Oh i love you , i want you ` What is his ambition ? He wants to teach you. Its an investment,,,,he says ìts an investment. So that when i retire you shall be able to work and feed me and your mother`` A concept . WHo want us for keeps ? Nobody in this world want us really . nobody Our father doesnt want us , our mother doesnt want us , our brothers dont want us , out uncles dont want us , our aunt doesnt want us ,,,nobody want us in this world . Except guru maharaj.ji. Guru maharaj.ji `s the only one who says `` come , come now and you can stay forevever.

Subject: Ulf? Mail it to me? From: Jean-Michel To: Ulf Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 03:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here's my email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Subject: A different tack this time From: Peter Howie To: Ulf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 17:29:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there, As I read that I remembered the feeling that goes along with it. And one of the reasons that the message is so powerful is becasue it taps into some pretty primordial human issues. I reckon that MJ at this point was really hitting some top notes and sustaining them. I remember thinking that I was really the only human and that everyone around me was put there by aliens. I remember asking my brother about 'who are they' those that sent you here. I was about 8 at the time and going to boarding school. Quite frankly I would love it to be true what MJ is saying. I know that I relish feeling loved unconditionally. I know that at the time at the age when he was saying this (22) that I was pretty negative towards my parents. So he was really tapping hard into a vien of my psyche. I reckon what he has written is a type of poetry - it falls into the,,, I can't quite remember the words for it - kind of old testament teacher role - the really wise sage role - the 'this is the truth even thought it hurts' role - the Kabir style - and then he neatly finishes it with a flourish about MJ being the one who cares. I respond in the moment now as I read it, by considering whether those I love know that I really love them and act accordingly. I may have some of the 'user' aspect that MJ talks about. Maybe not in terms of money and security in my old age - more in terms of a sense of satisfaction - I have children in my life because I want to and it enriches my life. I'm also able to notice that they want to be in my life and they are benefitting in many substantial ways from being there. Anyway - I moved to give him his due - this stuff is really potent. Mind you there would be many people who find it absolute drivel at the best of times. But most of those people never went near MJ for a second. And thanks Ulf for digging this up. As others will say - this is a great piece of historicla refutation of those who want to rewrite history. I wonder whether MJ ever read 1984? Cheers for now. Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia Irregular serious visitor

Subject: R U the bloke who married Collette? (OT) From: Pullaver To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 18:23:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: just wondering. You're name is kinda familiar.

Subject: Collette who??? (nt) From: Peter Howie To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:28:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (nt)

Subject: Collette P From: Cityscape member To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 00:12:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: pakulski, Pete's wife - remember? No you wern't married to her. she's doing great and lives in Canada. Pete's still rockin too, their daughter got K last year.

Subject: I remember this... From: Bryn To: Ulf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:21:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is chilling stuff. The feeling of it is awful. Who was I to be taking stuff like this on-board? I tried so hard to live it. I was a young family man at the time too! What a dreadful feeling of conflict this reawakens in me. Ouch ouch ouch. Love Bryn

Subject: THIS is AWFUL!!!! From: Francesca :~) To: Ulf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:59:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much Ulf. The reality check was refreshing. Those ashrams that Elan Vital used to say on its web page were, ahem, only there for refugees of the drug culture, so it was so easy to close them all in 1982 when there were no more drug fiends left in the world. St. Paddy chased the snakes from Ireland, and St. Rawat chased all the dope fiends from the US and the Europe. But for some reason, up until 1982, M chose virtually ALL his instructors from the ashram. Hmmm. Only dope fiends could get close to the Lard and spread his word, up until 1982. Or did Elvan Vital lie to us all? bests, --f

Subject: John/J-M/ On EPO? From: Joe -- thanks Ulf To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:28:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ulf, thanks for that. Like Francesca said, this is important, damning stuff. Is this on tape or in print? I hope this can go up on EPO. Thanks again, Ulf.

Subject: Re: John/J-M/ On EPO? From: Ulf To: Joe -- thanks Ulf Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 13:25:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is from Divine times , july / august 1979. I agree this is awful, and if there are someone who would like this magazine , and publish it here ,on this forum, i will be happy to send it along It is a very long satsang , 10 pages , but there is a lot of ``good `` stuff in it . Best Ulf

Subject: way back From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 07:44:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are there any posts from people who recieved K and practised before DLM organisation in the west started to influence premies' lives, i.e. around 70/71? how did it work back then?

Subject: Re: way back From: ex WPC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:39:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was introduced to the firm in 1971, thought it a bit tame, went back and got 'knowledge' in 1972. In 1973, got recruited as housemother to the wpc electronic guys, they who bugged the palace. Factions were forming, Glen was acting for god at Woodside Ave. Raja Ji for god in the WPC. The house in Reigate was aquired as a retreat from the strain of loving so many people!? There was a chain of command based loosely on a Hollywood movie called The Godfather. All premies were bongo and this meant that a quaisi militaristic regime was needed to keep the show on the road. This is where we all have to look at are own collusion in the the game. M had been part of a family business in India, and now the business was expanding in the west. An unworldy but astute boy of around 14 years old was being stage managed by a group of men in their mid to late twenties. Satsang ended at 9pm so premies could return home and meditate, and the honchos' could go trolling the nightlife of central London showing the boy god a good time. I don't have a precise calender of events but when an adult woman turned up and became an item with m, I don't recall any one voicing misgivings about the liason, only that Mata ji was pissed because she had an Indian girl lined up for him. Looking back nobody comes out of this with any honour. The couple wed, the mother fled, the business flourished. Then we grew up, and here was m ceo to a thriving business, no product few overheads, a capitalist succes story. I don’t know them well, and only shared their house for a short time..Ask yourselves a 15/16 year old boy has the world at his feet a bunch of grown men doing his bidding. I’ve known a lot of 15 year old boys to get quite carried away on their fantasies, the job of the adults is to guide and check their behaviour focusing their energies towards making a meaningfull contribution as adults. This task normally falls to the parents, ms father was dead, and his mother? Hey what an awkward old bint she was being. Ridiculed and tricked she went back to India and put together the business with her remaining loyal son. Ms loyal brother Raja ji continued to work and play with the brothers. So put yourself in their position baring in mind that by now the sixties are well and truly over and the only respectable 80s game is making money. No doubt the marriage in the cold light of day, like many relationships had no substance. They did however have 4 children whom they love and a thriving cash cow. How to keep the assets without losing all credibility is always difficult for those in the public eye. About the premies, is this the only thing you ever bought that turned out to be a rip off? You pay taxes, are you totally content about the contribution you make to the arming bombing and desecration of the planet your money goes towards? What I got from my involvement in the early 70s was a buzz and bond that comes from being actively involved in something I believed in. Working together to bring peace to the world. We all lost the plot. Since that time I have been involved in various social/political/environmental things usually by default. An injustice festering under my nose. Being human involves doing things, most of us put our time and energy and money into things of no real value. Maybe m succeeded in his mission by default, he sold us to ourselves, older and wiser now I’m sure we all think twice before buying that Rolex watch for a tenner from the bloke looking over his shoulder. Sorry this is a bit long, love and stuff to all.

Subject: Re: way back From: Gail To: ex WPC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 13:58:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is a problem with your logic me fears! About the premies, is this the only thing you ever bought that turned out to be a rip off? You pay taxes, are you totally content about the contribution you make to the arming bombing and desecration of the planet your money goes towards? First of all, when you buy items you can exercise your warranty. At the very least, you can exercise caveat emptor for future reference. However, when you are stupid enought (I was) to buy into a a fraudulent belief system that is being promulgated by God in a Bod, it takes 25 years to get your life back. That's what I resent. That's what anyone who realizes (s)he has been imprisoned in a cult resents. Ya, ya. Politicians have always been pulling the wool over, but is John Q. Public really fooled? We certainly were!

Subject: Re: way back From: ex WPC To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:13:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry Gail, maybe it came across that I feel what was done by m was of no significance and that nothing should be done about it continuing. This was not the point I was making. In the early 70s the whole thing functioned in an hysterical way. It was however choreographed by a group and not a lone individual. I'm saying that where a con is operating on a large scale people get hurt. I also bought into it, and continued to participate until fairly recently. The Reigate house was initially posited as Raja jis des res. It was after his gig in Bristol a couple of years ago that I realised I would no longer go beyond my own front door to hear any of their bilge. I find the guard/prisoner experiments quite pertinent to what went down in DLM and in my view goes for virtually any large corproation/institution. The basic premise is that the group authorises behaviour that participating individuals would not condone. The knowledge factory is like any corporation/political party, in that it seeks to capture the aspirations of participants. Once commited to the cause be it workers rights, selling labels atached to goods of neglible merit whatever, if someone feels dissillusioned they will weigh up the pro's and cons of staying with it, leaving it, relative to how it impinges on their own circumstances. I know personally people whose lives have been shaped by their affiliation to political parties in England, who since 1997 have felt used and betrayed. It will affect ms proceedings not one iota why or how I became an ex. If I want that nobody else should become a future dupe I have to acknowledge how easy it was to accept corruption, and continue to participate in the set up. Take a look at some news footage from the 1984 miners strike, yes people do put their faith in politicians. What I'm trying to say is that wherever we drop our brains and pick up someone elses' trip we get hurt. Seeing it in the context of our overall culture as yet another empty answer to inner turmoil is not to diminish the pain you feel but to point out that in our very messed up society m is not the only culprit. There are many power crazed individuals whose decisions will kill people they never met. They will do it in your name and mine because your vote whether you excersised it or not gives them a mandate to act ie you may not personally want to bomb Afganistan, or anywhere else, no problem they do it for your safety. Sorry about the long winded response, love and good luck enjoy your life

Subject: Re: way back From: Sir Dave To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 19:57:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received K in the Spring of 1972 and after a while I did leave DLM and did my own thing for a while. I did meditate in that period when I had nothing to do with DLM and yes, meditation did have an effect then although I have to admit that I wasn't ''practising knowledge'' as is prescribed but simply doing meditation my own way, as and when I wanted to. These days I meditate sometimes - certainly not all the time but as and when I feel like it. At times, I do get the same effect from it as I got way back in 1972 at the time mentioned above. In fact, my own experience of doing my method of meditation which is very loosely based on the third technique although far removed from formal meditation (it's more like a relaxation technique) - my experience of this has continually shown me that Maha hasn't a clue as to what he's talking about.

Subject: Re: way back From: Mike Finch To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are there any posts from people who recieved K and practised before DLM organisation in the west started to influence premies' lives, i.e. around 70/71? how did it work back then? Yes, I got Knowledge on June 1 1970. Thanks Livia for drawing my attention to this post. The main difference that I remember is that there was no 'inner circle' then. By 'inner circle' I mean that group of premies who either have access to Maharaji personally or who are honchos in the organisation (or both), and thus feel and act vastly superior to the rank n file. This is a sore point with me; I have been both in the inner circle, and in the outer darkness, and I found that whole dynamic very painful. The despair of being cast into outer darkness (ie losing your honcho job or M withdrawing access to him personally), and the desperate attempt to climb back up the ladder into the inner circle, for which you will do anything, is humiliating, obscene, de-humanising, and plain manipulative. Of course, we did not have to buy into it, but that goes for all our involvement. So my memories of 1970, and when M was first in England in June/July 71, where that everything was very open. Anyone could gain access to Maharaji as long as they just came to the house he was living in. There was no organisation, and so no honchos. Whatever organisation there was - to pay bills or arrange M's events - was done by people who did not feel superior. There was no inner circle. As far as I remember, everyone was pleasant, respectful and supportive to each other. Of course, this may just be my nostalgia ! I think it changed gradually. When M returned to England in October 71, there was more of an organisation - more people being more together about organisational things, and arranging the first jumbo to India made people realise that if you were organising things M wanted done, you got more attention - but again, no 'inner circle' mentality that I remember. I think it really changed in 72. I would put Guru Puja in Montrose, Colorado (July 72) as the turning point. Bob Mishler, as the US honcho, up to then was friendly and accessible. He told me at the festival that M had talked to him about ramping things up and getting together a real organisation. Very quickly after that, honchos became honchos, and staring wearing suits and thinking they were privileged. I remember the first time I encountered the inner circle phenomenon, I felt quite sick. Actually it was meeting Bob again, who recognised me but ignored me - he was in his suit and I was sweeping some floor I think - but I instantly saw what the whole inner circle thing was about. Really, I should have left then - the impulse to do so was greater then that it would be for a long time to come - but of course I didn't. -- Mike

Subject: Re: way back From: berni To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 17:31:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, Always good to read your posts as I too was around in the old days. However I disagree with your statement 'Whatever organisation there was - to pay bills or arrange M's events - was done by people who did not feel superior. There was no inner circle. As far as I remember, everyone was pleasant, respectful and supportive to each other. Of course, this may just be my nostalgia !' I was always hanging around the house at Hanwell and hated it - but because everyone I knew was doing it I tagged along. Peer pressure I guess and and desire to do the right thing. There was then, as there is now, a superior stance taken by those who had received knowledge. Those who were 'in with the in crowd'. I know that many premies in those days genuinely felt that they had the answer to everyone's problems and rather than gloat at the rest of us poor ignorant unfortunates, they wanted to turn us on. However it used to turn me off. I wish I had gone with my gut feeling and not given in to the lure of infinite bliss and the promise of understanding what this life is all about. Oh well :( berni

Subject: Re: way back From: Mike Finch To: berni Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 10:27:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: However I disagree with your statement 'Whatever organisation there was - to pay bills or arrange M's events - was done by people who did not feel superior. There was no inner circle. As far as I remember, everyone was pleasant, respectful and supportive to each other. Of course, this may just be my nostalgia !' I was always hanging around the house at Hanwell and hated it ...a superior stance taken by those who had received knowledge. Berni, you don't say whether you were a premie then, ie had Knowledge. In fact, your post suggests that you were not. I am certainly not suggesting that premies as a whole didn't feel and act superior to the rest of the human race, and if you were as aspirant then the arrogance of premies was (and is) appalling. My remarks in my post about an 'inner circle' was an inner circle of premies vis a vis other premies. -- Mike

Subject: Re: way back From: berni To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:18:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, You are right - I was not a premie in the Hanwell days, more a reluctant aspirant, and I understand your point about the 'inner circle' and the lack of hierarchy in those days. It was the subtle message 'if you don't have knowledge then you know nothing' that I remember feeling annoyed with in those pre-premie days - and it seemed to take months to go through the process of asking for knowledge (you had to have the ego knocked out of you). Of course once I had received it, although somewhat bemused as to what it was, I soon adopted that same 'I know something that you don't attitude'. Still, thinking about it, there was always a hierarchy even amongst those in the know. The lord, the mahatmas, the ashram premies, those who did regular service, those who regularly attended satsang and the 'spacers'. You only rose up the ladder by surrendering the reigns of your life to serving Maharji. But I know what you mean. In those days some of those mahatmas, ashram premies etc. were sincere and fellow seekers of enlightenment. Most of them did not wish to propogate their ideas of how you should conduct your life. That soon changed however and the heavy premie satsang was soon flowing. Despite that, which I must admit to taking with a pinch of salt, I miss those days in some ways. The naive attitude to life, the lack of worldy responsibility, the hopes for the future, the excitement of being in the vanguard team who were saving the human race. Shame it was all a pipe dream. All the best berni

Subject: You're a country member (nt) From: Joker To: berni Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:11:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, I remember From: DR To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:37:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For me it was in late 1972 when M was coming to UK. There was a fairly large event at Acton town hall. I was one of those 'privileged' speakers who sat at the front of the auditorium facing (yes facing!) the audience for the entire show. That was a centering (or highly discomforting experience) to say the least and one which I realised immediately created a distiction between 'us' and 'them'. Hey, that's life! I'm ashamed to say a part of me enjoyed it thoroughly. As a musician I was acustomed to being addicted to public attention and this was more of the same. When I spoke it was the usual nervous splutterings followed by a letting go to the flow and then that lovely warm fuzzy peace and nice words about knowledge etc, a great buzz. The applause was a treat and the after show questions from excited aspirants even better! After one such night, this really smooth looking guy sidles up to me and say's 'hey man, you know, if you, like got yourself a decent suit and, you know, you could..., you know.' That's how it went. I stood and nodded enthusiastically but later at home told everyone about it and we laughed at what a jerk he was etc. It was strange to see FBI like figures emerging at the events and I realised then that I would probably always stay as a minion. Security was important, obviously, but not the province of a spaced out hippie muso. Not sure how one managed to survive decades being surrounded by so much unbridled and seemingly endless ambition, showing off and manipulation, not to mention the lunatic SA gopies who would practically kill for a tenth row seat! I think we survived by laughing at them and even (at Kissemee) hating those arrogant bastards strutting around with their fucking walki talkies pretending to have a direct line to God or his Mahaship. When Amaroo became like that it was the end for many people's involvement in the organisation, I hated it. Yet still the show goes on and I for one, haven't a clue how. The deeply embedded internal microchip just says 'event = party time' and it's always been right to date. My only explanation is that there is something else going on at a much deeper, more primal level that we never can or will truly understand. My worldly excitement, peace and fulfilment comes from buying guitars now. Just bought an exquisite G+L 'Bluesboy' for a client in UK. It's a limited edition Telecaster made by Leo Fender (yea the one) and is as good as that style of guitar ever gets. An absolute stunner. The end buyer is over the top with excitement and I don't blame him! If anyone knows any rare guitar collectors...I have a handle on some absolutely magnificent instruments. They cost a fair bit, but they're also unique and irreplacable. Great investments and a joy to play in the meantime! cheers

Subject: DR-guitars (totally OT) From: PatrickW To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If anyone knows any rare guitar collectors...I have a handle on some absolutely magnificent instruments. They cost a fair bit, but they're also unique and irreplacable. Great investments and a joy to play in the meantime! DR- could you email me patrick@patrickwilson.com with a list or whatever.

Subject: Re: Yes, I remember From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 02:25:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'My only explanation is that there is something else going on at a much deeper, more primal level that we never can or will truly understand.' I guess that has been my belief/experience too, I received K before M was around much, back then I had some truly wonderful experiences away from external influence, some of which will carry me thru' life, in later years I experienced guilt and anxiety big-time, felt as tho' I somehow had to anhialate my mind 'so the individual self could merge into the ocean' etc. etc. I never took the heirarchy of suits and haircuts seriously, figured K must draw some kind of org round itself, and that for most people was socially acceptable image, everything has to look like something afterall!

Subject: Yea, me too AV From: DR To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 23:26:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's funny, because I got off on K some time before I met or saw M. When I did I wasn't overawed at all, in fact I found his high squeky voice really annoying! The odd thing was, despite the strange pantomine going on and M's young wisdom sprinkled with Indian concepts sprouting out, every time the events ended, we were all flying!! I really didn't understand it at all as it certainly wasn't the 'buzz of the crowd' we had been so used to at rock gigs or festivals - it was very clearly an entirely different, more clarity filled, high. I too can remember the 'serious guilt and anxiety big-time, felt as tho' I somehow had to anhialate my mind 'so the individual self could merge into the ocean' etc. Yea, what the fuck was all that? I tend to satisfy myself with 'stupid Indian concepts' and leave it at that. I know some people say M made us feel that way, but I'm not comfortable with that conclusion because every time he'd speak (once he'd learned to speak 'western style') the rebel hippie muso inside me would rise up and say 'Right on!' while the pious Christian inside me cringed and waited for a suitably weak moment to assail me with more doubts and fears. My parents gave the damn thing more than a helping hand at that too.

Subject: Re: a clearer high From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 03:35:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My experience also. I must say also the feeling from some of the mahatmas at that time (pre FBI!) was extraordinary at early meetings, Acton, Queens way ,Palace etc. I used to walk out totally warm , elevated , clear and secure. It used to worry me when I saw M I would often fall asleep or completely lose the thread, like you said I assumed something indefinable was getting thru on a deeper level. I often wonder about those guys like Krishnasukanand and Gyanyoganand, I'd sure like to know how they are; at least somebody with that perspective for some councelling for all the anxiety and mental debris and stuff....or maybe some total shift is called for, dunno.....

Subject: I agree AV From: Ganjanand To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:24:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the experience of Knowledge is blissful as long as you don't allow yourself being drawn into this circus ...after all it is about learning something, thats why we went to a Master in the first place. But one should feel free to quit the whole ball game once one has understood the mechanisms involved, but real premies are not interested in that at all, they just want to adore their Guru Maharaj Ji and what's wrong with that? They keep the ball rolling and we can enjoy the show....

Subject: Nicely said, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:58:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I never took the heirarchy of suits and haircuts seriously, figured K must draw some kind of org round itself....'' Yes, the suits never bothered me too much either, not when I was away from satsang at the Palace of Peace and with my dope-smoking premie buds. The ''firm'' still gave me the creeps but, like you, I figured that God-in-bod needed a worldly organization, money, movers and shakers, cars, planes, mansions etc. All of it was weird in my book but understandable since this was the living lord not a dead one in the scriptures raising the dead. This avatar raised hard cash. But this bit is also important - as you said: ''....in later years I experienced guilt and anxiety big-time, felt as tho' I somehow had to anhialate my mind 'so the individual self could merge into the ocean' etc. etc.'' Show me an oldtime premie who did not experience this and I will show you someone who was not paying attention or is now lying through his teeth er sorry - resorting to revisionism and grandfathering. Now, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for a post from you with paragraphs. :C) Hey, at least I read your posts!

Subject: Re: Nicely said, AV From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:06:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry 'bout lousy presentation Pat C...this is all a bit nerve wracking to say the least....I guess when you've had profound experiences, its natural to accept the interpretation that 'This is the living Knowledge revealed by the Living Master'..... what would anybody have to compare it to anyway??? To me it (what I felt in meditation and early attempts at satsang, which were unexpected outpourings that suprised me as much as anyone..!) felt like ME, the missing part, the long lost soul finding itself home once again, if it didn't feel completely pure and natural, I would have run a mile, I'm not crazy. How come something so beautiful turned so many good friends into automatons; I remember meeting up with chums that had become instructors or somesuch 'rank', and they hardly gave me the time of day,looked straight thru me as tho' I didn't exist; upsetting aside, don't you think that's scary??? I'm not posting here to bad mouth anybody...I can get that anyplace, but I do look for the accounts of people who know something profound has touched their lives, but are now grappling with how their lives have become 30 years on, and how to be happy.

Subject: I reckon they were faking it AV From: DR To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 23:37:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So many good friends 'into automatons; I remember meeting up with chums that had become instructors or somesuch 'rank', and they hardly gave me the time of day,looked straight thru me as tho' I didn't exist; upsetting aside, don't you think that's scary???' I reckon they traded the simple experience of bliss, humilty and grace (and the social stigma of being a nothing, run of the mill premie) for a position of power where they 'appeared' to be closer to the action -but have since proved themselves to be masked invaders bent on gathering envy and admiring looks from innocents like us. These people were extremely unnerving and ugly. Posing as 'higher' beings to exert personal power games over the weary and the weak. We had monitors at my bording school just like that. But those holy rollers really take the cake - they should be sent to San Francisco where a well known restauranteer will give them what they deserve. Without lubricant!!

Subject: That's not very civil, Roupell From: gerry To: DR Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 18:32:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nor rational, for that matter. You broke the rules. Now go back to your own forum.

Subject: A joke doesn't have to be civil, Lyng From: DR To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 23:55:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for your command..... Have you forgotten what a nine foot grizzly does in the forest? He goes where the fuck he likes.

Subject: No, but it should be funny, Griz From: gerry To: DR Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ya gotta feel good to laugh first off From: the joker To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 23:39:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Humour is only a reflection :)

Subject: Or nervous [nt] From: Jim To: the joker Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 11:25:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Show me an old time premie From: Ganjanand Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:30:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here's one ! I have never been into this guilt trip or felt I was unworthy or whatever...this Christian bullshit has never entered my intoxicated mind......chilum bam bambouleee

Subject: I'm curious From: Dear Mike To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 17:46:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How did Maharaji treat you in the early days? What was he like to be around?

Subject: I have some questions Mike From: PatrickW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:51:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the first time I encountered the inner circle phenomenon, I felt quite sick. Actually it was meeting Bob again, who recognised me but ignored me - he was in his suit and I was sweeping some floor I think - but I instantly saw what the whole inner circle thing was about. Really, I should have left then - the impulse to do so was greater then that it would be for a long time to come - but of course I didn't. Mike, are you critical of DLM 'honchos' or Maharaji personally for the fact that this hierarchy of priviledged 'inner circle' types came into being and thrived? Do you think Maharaji cultivated this inner circle for some particular reason or was it just human nature to form one? Did he encourage some sort of sick 'court' dynamic do you think? As you know premies will all say that Maharaji himself has been always keen to cut out the organisation and to talk directly to 'his premies'. I am not quite sure what you think what you have described tells us about M if anything. Obviously it tells us that most premies (like yourself) easily fell into the trap of wanting to be a part of a 'special' inner circle and that those dynamics led to pain for those who became excluded. I can't help thinking that premies will just be gloating over your words - 'Oh yes, Mike -how typical - he's just moaning because he couldn't be in a powerful position any more - it's just sour grapes etc. He should have been more humble' How would you answer this accusation?

Subject: Re: I have some questions Mike From: Nottm Bunny To: PatrickW Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:58:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Patrick I thought Mike's point was that there was no inner circle and hence no 'powerful position' in the very early days. It wasn't until the mid-eighties and instructordom when Mike had any of the privileged access to Maharaji again. That he did seem to enjoy, but I cannot remember him as one who ‘Lorded it’ above other premies in that superior and abusive way My memories of Mike at that time were as one who remained personally accessible and down to earth, generally well liked by most premies. His 'satsang' was more likely to contain anecdotes about his struggle with chocolate and the fridge than pretentious 'emperors clothes' drivel about how cosmic knowledge was. As far as any gloating premies are concerned, how sad for them, don't you think? Bunny

Subject: Playing a Hindu god in a modern Camelot From: Lesley To: PatrickW Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 15:58:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IMO, it was His Excrescence, Mr 'Krishna' Rawat who set up his court. The last time I listened to him speaking, April 2000, he was coyly informing us that he had reversed the totem pole, putting the community premies at the top and the instructors at the bottom...plays a lot of games, doesn't he.

Subject: Thanks for this, Mike From: Francesca To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:29:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I came along in 1973 in the US and the org and inner circle were definitely entrenched. Many westerners went to India in the late 60s and early 70s looking for spiritual enlightenment or drugs, or a combination of both. It seems like more than a few of the early 70's honchos got their organizational experience by dealing drugs. Maharaji was the stuff everyone wanted, and they (the dealers) had access to it. There was a smugness of the 'haves' and the 'have nots,' sometimes kind condescention. Things have changed from that phase too. The premies got experience in either Maharaji's org or in 'real world' jobs instead of relying on the skills they learned as hippies. (LOLs) But I did hear stories back then of the days you spoke of, when things were looser and Maharaji was way more accessible. --f

Subject: Re: Thanks for this, Mike From: PatD To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 16:33:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I 1st went to Golden Manor London to check it out in mid Jan.72,having heard about K in late 71, & got it in Mar.72 during a week's holiday from work,as you had to be able to say you'd listened to satsang for a consecutive period. M was in an adjacent room to the session & we were all told to go in afterwards to make our obeiances,which I didn't do. Maybe there were just too many people around for him to handle by then. I never went to the Montrose bash,but later that year in India he was certainly inaccessable to the likes of me. It's interesting the social milieu you mention....yeah lots of amateur dope dealers,& some not so amateur,but wideboys though they were,nothing like the professional criminals who dominate the trade now. Not too many people have come forward to explain the nuts & bolts of the early days(not surprisingly)....like who set up the entity WB.Stores that most of the donations received by DLM(UK) went to for 'services'. I met a casualty from the early days(inner circle or before?)years later through mutual friends(non-premies). Guy called Robert,I don't know his surname & wouldn't divulge it if I did. He carried M's money around the world in briefcases,walked it through customs,& ended up stabbing himself in the neck several years later because the birds were giving him satsang.(he lived) He got excluded at some point back then & couldn't handle it. ps : anyone notice that message below from Moll of Mole about Amaroo being owned by a company called Myrine registered in Jersey.

Subject: Re: Thanks for this, Mike From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Mike, I also enjoyed your reminiscences and hope for more but don't expect them. But you know we're all terribly curious. Maybe you could practice on us with your anecdotes and keep notes for a book. PatD said: ''....lots of amateur dope dealers,& some not so amateur,but wideboys though they were,nothing like the professional criminals who dominate the trade now....'' We call them ''white-collar crimninals'' in the States, PatD. In other words criminals with lawyers - which the oldtime dope-smugglers who bankrolled Rawat's western venture did not have - yet. You ps'ed: ''...anyone notice that message below from Moll of Mole about Amaroo being owned by a company called Myrine registered in Jersey?'' Yes. The sleuths are onto it as we speak. :C)

Subject: You need to talk to Mike Finch [nt] From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: don't give god a face From: Konni To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:42:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw the god concept (thanks Lesley) and some people have tried and still do, as if god were a being. Depending on which slant you follow either the partriarchal view of history/evolution or the femina view or even believing the whole bun fight was contrived can moot the idea that god might be hardwired into the system. Try not saying god and he as if they were somehow linked, then maybe such notions of 'filial loyalties' or good or bad feelings don't take on historical or evolutionary significance. Words, meanings...hmmm. Spiritual for me is akin to creativity in that it is a sense of ourselves that inspires and motivates but I just don't buy that we need religious experience for survival. It was a con. A lie. We stopped evolving a long time ago. Loyalty is an interesting topic all by itself. Why would I have a need to ask loyalty of my children? (and to redeem myself from being too OT - am I?, I'll add..) Why does M. require secrecy and loyalty - he must have many doubts. Perhaps our longings, and feelings are just ways of making sense of our being. Anyone's reality is what they have created it to be. Setting aside any argument that a person creates their origin of birth, we use whatever is at hand to create meaning and identity to our existence as we travel the path from point a=origin to z=current reality. Except for when I pray to win the lottery, I just don't see a need anymore for a god or a realisation other than of my own. As for religious experience the only one I might need is a FatBoySlim epitaph.

Subject: I have seen a great wonder.. From: Ganjanand To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 23:38:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: while traveling thru the vast expanse of the cyberworld also called internet which is in fact the hell realm created by man himself. I can now see with my very eyes how the glories of our Supreme Lord Shri Guru Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe are being spread in the pits of hell also by you devoted people. Truly great is your Service that you do to mankind and the word has been fulfilled that our beloved brother Gurucharnanand Ji once said: if our Guru Maharaj Ji sends us to hell , we should gladly go there because He will transform hell into heaven for us. And that is exactly what s happening! the poor lost souls wandering thru the hell realms of the internet will by His Grace come to this site and learn about the wondrous deeds and the Divine exploits of our Supreme Lord Shri Guru Maharaji and thus be anxious to get toone of His festivities to be in the Holy Presence of the Lord of the Universe and eventually get initiated into His Divine Knowledge. I am now absolutely positive that you good people will never leave the shelter of our Lord and will ALWAYS remain and His Truly Holy Lotusfeet.Oh how blessed are you! By His boundless Grace and Compassion Our Lord has found a way to accomplish His Divine Mission also in the realms of Hell and you are His blessed tools. Oh how lucky you are, my beloved brothers and sisters! BOLie Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Prem Rawat Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Gerry Lyng Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Ganjanand Ki Jai! BOL BOL BOL (there is a secret in this world that only the true devotee realizes!) Greetings from the non-dual state, yours truly in His Service your brother Ganjanand Ji...don't bogart this......

Subject: Bhole shri, Ganjanand Ji!!! From: Mahatma Coat To: Ganjanand Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:21:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My dear brother Ganjanand Ji, Finally, after swimming through this shark infested infinite ocean of shark filled maya, someone has the vedas to come here and speak the truth. I'm not sure if I ever met you but anyone with ganja and a Ji in his name must be very holy premie. You are so wise in saying there is a secret in this world that only the true devotee realizes! Surely you have realized this most Holy of all Knowledges and know that you are one of few who can go Home with the Master. It is so totally obvious to this old soul that you never, ever doubt the purity of the Master. That's the only way you can stay with Him, yes? Very wise, no doubt. Ha, ha! By His Grace, this old Mahatma Ji will maybe soon be gifted the rupees from premies for flight to Australia and I will once again be close to Balyogeshwar, the Born Lord of the Yogis. Ganjanand Ji, perhaps at Amaroo we can share chai and have blissful satsang. And if we pray to Sant Ji, we may be blessed to again sing Arti and kiss His Lotus Feet. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Leaving Your Lotus Feet, where would I goooooooooooooo? Eternally dust beneath His Guccis, Mahatma Coat

Subject: ''someone has the vedas'' - LOL![nt] From: Bai Ghosh Ji - that is wonderful To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:15:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: h

Subject: good idea mahatma ji.. From: Ganjanand Ji To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:51:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..and maybe we could also share the money that devoted premies might- by His Grace-donate to you to make it to Tupac Amaroo....best regards

Subject: What should be done with Amaroo From: Gail To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 15:56:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the place should be turned into a prison-for-profit (not prophet). Young offenders could be kept (at the Aussie taxpayers' expense) on 'THE LAND.' They could study in the knowledge hall, rustle up their chow in fine dining, etc. It wouldn't cost much if Bobby set the menu for vegetarian pasta as a daily staple. The only meat served would be fresh rabbit stew. All the profits could go to the Lard to fix his ailing coffers. Of course, the bi-yearly cult meetings could be serviced by the prisoners and guards. Another possibility would be to turn it into a movie set or a venue for week-long rock festivals. The truly devoted premies could work there year-round for minimum wage. Of course, the Lard could also turn the facility into a biz school. The school's specialty could be an MBA in 'HOW TO MAKE MEGA BUCKS IN ANY ECONOMIC CLIMATE--THE GOD BUSINESS.'

Subject: Re: What should be done with Amaroo From: Nottm Bunny To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:19:56 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Gail Interesting ideas: Are you suggesting there is a great need for such expansive prisons still down under? (Only Aussies can be a bit touchy about their ancestors being deported Limey convicts :) ). I do have a problem with the rabbit stew though and must register my protest on behalf of my fellow bunnies everywhere (as I did when the news broke about Maharaji's Amaroo bunny shooting habits). Bunny

Subject: Re: What should be done with Amaroo, eh Bunny From: Gail To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:46:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bunny: I never thought of that aspect. The joints in Canada for young offenders are full (at least around here). I toured a facility for ages 12-16. They have three to a room built for two (one on the floor). Amaroo would be like heaven (no pun intended) for them!

Subject: Re: What should be done with Amaroo From: OTS To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 14:45:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a matter of fact, my dear wabbit, there is no such need. Just 15 minutes from Amaroo is a new (within the last 8 years) private prison just built with shinny new barbed wire fencing, so this idea for Amaroo without a doubt should be placed in the dumpster.

Subject: Bunny Haven From: Nottm Bunny To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:33:34 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Glad to hear it OTS. My cousins can frolic and siflay (Watership Down) to their hearts content for a little longer. Perhaps the land should be given back to the custodianship of Aborigines. There is an ancient sacred site on that land. Funny that, can’t remember seeing many Aborigines when I was at Amaroo. Bunny

Subject: Re: Bunny Haven From: Gail To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 16:49:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a great idea. Give it to people who would use it wisely. Geez, the Lard could even get a tax break for his donation and would finally be doing some humanitarian work!

Subject: That was really wonderful... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Ganjanand Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... I really do agree with the sentiments expressed, it's the nicest thing I've read here in a while. Bravo. However, the language used really is a tad unsyncronized. Actually, quite a bit more than just a "tad". A real blast from the past, but you see, the past isn't like that anymore, The Master has improved it, and now wants us to be syncronized with the improved version. For instance, we are the students, and He is The Teacher. It's much less confusing to aspirants and nosey reporters that way. Have you ever considered attending some of the two or three day seminars that The Master has been recommending, to teach us how to talk about Him so that we are all syncronized and saying the same thing at the same time, and in the same way? They only cost several hundred dollars, and not only will you learn how to speak about Maharaji correctly, you'll learn how to apologize to Him, too! It's important to help Maharaji in His work, in the way He wants us to. The seminars help us to do that, I highly recommend them! :) Yours in That Feeling, Andrea Eriksonn, ''A cult? Ewww, Yucky! I'd NEVER join one of THOSE.''

Subject: ..is that those seminars From: Ganjanand Ji To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:38:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are only for the unenlightened westerners that Prempal has to deal with. Old hats like me prefer to not get involved with all that prachar business that Prem has pledged to promote. I rather sit back,relax and enjoy that beautiful gift that Lord Shiva has granted us...

Subject: Re: ..Shiva From: AV To: Ganjanand Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:46:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah!!! Lord Shiva, the cosmic musician and destroyer of the Universe!! now THAT would be a gig....

Subject: my humble opinion.. From: Ganjanand Ji To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:58:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'the past isn't like that anymore' From: JHB To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant line, Andrea (any relation to Sven Goran?). Did you make that up or quote it from somewhere? If you made it up, you're wasting your talents! John

Subject: The Best Explanation So Far (IMO) From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:47:32 (EST) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: The attached paper Traumatic Abuse in Cults: An Exploration of an Unfamiliar Social Problem by Daniel Shaw, is a must-read for all who wish to gain insight into the psychology of the master/student relationship; the master apologist (R2 et al); the manipulations of the master; etc. Here's a teaser excerpt: What Is a Cult, and Why Do People Get Involved in Them? Cult experts estimate that there are about 5,000 cultic groups in the United States today and that about 10 to 20 million people have at some point in recent years been in one or more of such groups (Langone, 1993). The Cult Awareness Network reports that it receives about 18,000 inquiries a year (Tobias and Lalich, 1994). Michael Langone (1993), a psychologist who has worked with approximately 3,000 families of cult members, defines a cult as: a group or movement that, to a significant degree: exhibits great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing; uses a thought-reform program to persuade, control, and socialize members (i.e., to integrate them into the group's unique pattern of relationships, beliefs, values, and practices); systematically induces states of psychological dependency in members; exploits members to advance the leadership's goals; and causes psychological harm to members, their families, and the community. I would add to this definition that a religious cult is led by a person who claims to have reached human perfection or unity with the divine, and who claims therefore to be exempt from social or moral limitations or restrictions. Within this autocracy, the leader is not held to normative societal standards of conduct and is not subject to any system of checks and balances. Behavior that would in any other context be considered amoral, if not psychopathic, is idealized by devotees as indicative of the leader's transcendent perfection and enlightenment. Seduction The questions most often asked of former cult members, usually with incredulity, are 'How did you get into something like this? And why did you stay so long?' The unspoken subtext seems to be, 'How could someone like you end up in something like this? There must have been something wrong with you.' Certainly most former cult members were not seeking to be controlled, made dependent, exploited, or psychologically harmed when they first committed themselves to membership. One reason cults are so successful is that they have mastered the art of seduction, using techniques of undue influence (Cialdini, 1984). As Hochman (1990) notes, cults, by employing miracle, mystery, and authority, 'promise salvation. Instead of boredom -- noble and sweeping goals. Instead of existential anxiety -- structure and certainty. Instead of alienation -- community. Instead of impotence -- solidarity directed by all-knowing leaders' (p. 179). Cults prey upon idealistic seekers, offering answers to social problems and promising to promote bona fide social change. Recruiting addresses the anxieties and loneliness of people experiencing personal problems, transition or crisis, by holding out the promise of transformative healing within the framework of a caring and understanding community (Tobias et al.). Cult recruiting often takes place in sophisticated settings, in the form of seminars featuring persuasive, well-credentialed speakers, such as successful professionals, respected academics or popular artists, writers and entertainers. Cults target members from middle-class backgrounds, often directly from college campuses, and the majority of members are of above average intelligence (Hassan, 1990; Kliger, 1994; Tobias et al., 1994). In recruiting programs, speakers and members present various kinds of disinformation about cult leaders, including concealing their existence altogether. Otherwise, the leader may be represented as a humble, wise and loving teacher, when in reality he or she is a despot in possession of a substantial fortune, generated from member donations and (often illegal) business activities. The apparent leader may be only a figurehead, while the identity of the actual leader is concealed. False claims of ancient lineages may be made, or the leader is falsely said to be revered and renowned in his or her own country. Cult leaders rewrite and falsify their own biographies. Recruiting programs do not, for instance, inform participants about leaders of the group having criminal records, or a group's history of sexual abuse of members, or the group's involvement with illegal activities. Seduction in cult recruitment always involves strict control and falsification of information Thought Reform, or Mind Control Thought reform, or mind control, is another important component in understanding why cults are so prevalent in our society. The psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton (1987) studied the methods used by the Chinese Communists during the Korean War to turn war prisoners into willing accomplices, and called these methods thought reform (see also Hinkle and Wolff, 1976; Schein, 1956; Singer, 1979). Thought reform (also known as mind control) is the foundation on which cults are built. Lifton identified 8 phenomena that were present in the systems of 'ideological totalism' that he studied, all of which can be found in cults: 1. Milieu control - control of communication within an environment. Maintained primarily by increasingly isolating members from non-members, this sets up what Lifton calls 'personal closure.' One is constantly receiving reinforcement to suppress personal doubts and struggles about what is true or real; 2. Mystical manipulation, or planned spontaneity - a systematic process, covertly planned and managed by the group leader, whereby others come to invest him with omniscience, omnipotence, or divine authority. This gives rise to the embrace of an 'ends justify the means' philosophy, since the behavior and directives ofthe leader are always and only interpreted as having a divine origin and purpose; 3. Demand for purity - the call for a radical separation of pure and impure, of good and evil, within an environment and within oneself. This creates a world of guilt and shame in which devotees become obsessively preoccupied with hope of reward and fear of punishment; 4. Cult of confession - linked to the demand for purity. Required confession sessions, ostensibly for the purpose of purification and spiritual evolution, manipulate the guilt and shame mechanisms of followers, expose them totally to the group, and deepen their sense of being owned by the group; 5. Sacred science - a set of dogmatic principles which claim to be a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology. These principles must never be questioned, and all experience must be filtered through them; 6. Loading the language - reduction and distortion of complex concepts, thoughts, and feelings to simplistic clich‚s and slogans, which are used to still and limit mental processes of judgment and critical thinking; 7. Doctrine over person - one is made to feel that doubts of the doctrine are a reflection of one's own inadequacies, defects, or sins. The dogma is truth, and one's subjective experience must be aligned with the dogma. To do otherwise is to risk exclusion from the group. Since the doctrine is created to serve the purposes of the sociopathic leader, followers must split off or dissociate parts of themselves, and jettison their own values, to justify actions or tenets of the leader which would otherwise be intolerable to them. 8. Dispensing of existence - in the totalist vision of truth, one who disobeys, or deviates from the dogma, is false, deluded, or evil, and therefore instantly dispensable. The leaders are the judge of who is deviant, and can change their criteria at whim. Cults use the fear of banishment and shunning to control and contain members. To fear rejection by one's absolute ideal is tantamount to the profound dread of annihilation. (See also Singer and Ofshe, 1990; Tobias et al. For other theories of social control relevant to cults, see Festinger, 1964; Gramsci, 1973; Zimbardo, 1988.) Traumatic Cult Abuse hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm

Subject: It Doesn't Hoit From: Pullaver To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 00:46:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to read the remarkably similar journeys of other former cultists who believed that they too had found the Perfect Master of the Age (only to awaken to their folly) . . . The Muck on Muktananda The Maya of Gurumayi Swami Shyam May be a Sham but he Ain't Shy Siddha Sid on Dis 3H0 or HOHOHO 108 Names of God Sexy Baba Taking it on the Chin with Sri Chinmoy Dark Side of the Moon

Subject: Thanks Pullaver - o boy, more reading From: Crispy To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:52:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a great link, thanks. I've only read half of it so far, so I immediately saved it and look forward to reading the rest later, - 'cuz I've got an obsessive appetite these days :p for these kinds of insights! PS: let me know what you think of the book I loaned you as well ? Cheers, 'Crispy'

Subject: Could you please address this, Donner? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:34:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, In the thread below about Flethcer and Fakiranand, there's this big discrepancy between Nick's report: As I have posted here a few times before, I can vouch for certain that Fakiranand spent a few months in Switzerland (and maybe a few days in Austria) in the months leading up to the Millenium Festival (i.e. after the brutal attack). I was his driver and can clearly pinpoint the timing of his touring in Europe. Again, as I have stated here, the Pat Halley incident was in no way reported to the premies who were tending after Fakiranand. Maharaji may have been angry, but he clearly was not concerned about my and others' well-being at the hands of a possible psychopath (and I am not being dramatic here). and your own: also, fakiranand was sent to india, not europe. i do not remember that fakianand ever left india after that. not completely sure however. but he went from detroit to chicago by car...i was in that car...and ticketed to india via london. How likely is it to you, given what Nick says, that Fakiranand re-routed once he got to London? Would you have necessarily known? And who could have orchestrated that change without your knowledge? Where would Maharaji fit into any of this? How about the rest of his not-yet-estranged family? Also, Mike, did you have any contact with Richard Fletcher, the other assailant? Where did he go? How? Why? Did anyone, as far as you know, ever talk with these guys and get their version? Mike, as you know, many of us are extremely curious about this stuff and, at least at this point, you are the singularly best-informed witness by a long shot. No one even comes close to sharing your vantage point. For example, you talk about your speculation that Raja Ji might have incited the attack. We former rank-and-file premies might also have guessed that just based on his WPC bullshit and all that but I bet that if you're guessing that you've got more, maybe much more, to rely on. Maybe you saw things, heard things, details that, in context, are extremely significant that the rest of us just don't know. Please, Mike, don't just leave us with your conclusions but rather 'take us there', if you can. Likewise, you mention, almost in passing that: rajaswar was also in on the meetings with two other mahatmas to plan the attack...which i learned later To me, though, that's nothing less than a bombshell. Again, what exactly are you talking about? I know it's been a long time but it's just going to get longer. :) You're the man, Mike. Until Maharaji, or maybe Raja Ji or Fakiranand himself, publishes his candid memoires, you're the best we got. Please, if you could fill us in with as much detail as possible, I know many will be grateful. Thanks Jim

Subject: Fakiranand's schedule in Europe? From: Jean-Michel To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:37:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do have piles of magazines of that time, and I've planned to do some research this week to find his schedule in Europe then. Mahatamas schedules were publicised at that time, and I'm sure I'll find it somewhere. It should be end 73, beginning of 1974.

Subject: Many of us are extremely curious? From: The Inner Circle To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:09:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'many of us are extremely curious -many will be grateful' How many of you are up there in that busy head of yours Jim? Fo God's sake grow up, be honest and say ' I, JIM, WOULD BE GRATEFUL' Why do you always subtley boast about representing this huge and grateful crowd? To swell the power and significance of your words? No-one else gives a fuck! WHY do you think you're the only one who asks these inane questions of the goofballs who sulked around M a few decades back? Sheesh! Your pining is pathetic and embarrassing man...look at it. 'Please, Mike, don't just leave us with your conclusions but rather 'take us there', if you can....Please, Mike, take us there, don't just leave us... Please Mike, please, take us there!' Sorry....but this is just the best.... the very best jimbogrovel so far!! Don't you know Jim... ONLY SATGURU CAN TAKE YOU THERE!! Seriously though Jim, are we witnessing the sad and pathetic end to an illustrious forum career? We didn't think 'Laughing Stock' was what you had in mind for your epitaph.

Subject: I am curious, Inner Circle? From: Gail To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:18:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think 'Laughing Stock' was what you had in mind for your epitaph either, but 'LS' you are. Everyone you preached to will attest to that. Aren't you a little old for fairy tales? Hey Virginia, there ain't no Santa Claus and no Lord of the Universe, either!

Subject: PS: Who are you--Richard Fletcher? From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:21:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha!

Subject: *BEST of FORUM* [nt] From: LOL To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 16:02:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh please Mike. you're the man :) and I'm not :(

Subject: A true Classic! From: Circle admirer To: LOL Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:25:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, that's a real beauty. Whoever you are, 'Inner Circle', please keep posting. Whether Jim does or not, you CERTAINLY speak for a very large number of lurkers and those who can't write what we have observed in such a clear way. Keep it up!

Subject: you lie: I give a faak From: Francesca :~) To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:44:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More people than Jim care about this issue. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. I wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' However, whether Maharaji would not only sneak the lunatic Fakirinand out of the USA but also foist him on other unsuspecting premies with no warning, when he was obviously a loose cannon indeed, is an important issue. This seems to be a part of a pattern of irresponsible behavior for one who claims to have so much authority and necessity in people's lives. Have you heard about the scandals going on in the Roman Catholic Church for example -- I mean, I hope 'the inner circle' reads the news? It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. In fact, going back and showing a pattern of insensitivity for the safety of premies is a viable point indeed. You'd rather that people grovel in confusion with no facts, I suppose, just something in the back of their minds saying, 'do I really have to listen to the fatGuru? Does he really care about his fellow human beings.' Yes, he is an ordinary human being, and accoutable for his actions, just like all the rest of us.

Subject: Jim can speak for many From: JHB To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:16:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After five years, the purpose of the ex-premie forums is pretty clear, as is the interests of most of the participants. It doesn't require a great leap of imagination to know that the details of an incident in Maharaji's life such as the attack on Pat Halley, is clearly of interest to many of us here, so it's obvious that Jim wasn't speaking out of turn when he said that. John.

Subject: Thanks, John From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 20:18:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll say this, I have no doubt at all that Francesca has a chip on her shoulder about me because of various differences we have. This was just an opportunity for her to somehow support what I was saying while simultaneously kicking me a bit. No question about it. By the way, I want to publically say something to you about you. I am just abundantly impressed by how you've been stick-handling some of the arguments with Deb and her new premie friends on LG and elsewhere. You've got a lot of patience -- more than me obviously -- but you really aren't falling for any bullshit and your way of dealing with it is truly admirable. I mean that sincerely, John. I know I used to give you a bit of a hard time for being what I thought was too reserved or timid in some of your opinions but, if that was ever the case, which it might well have not been, it sure isn't now. You should be proud of your participation here, John. It's commendable and exemplary. So when I see some idiot like Carlos [sorry, I'm still entitled to talk my way :)] even suggest that you're less than fair and even-handed, I can only laugh and shake my head. Good work all 'round, John. I just wanted to say that.

Subject: How wrong you are From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 00:49:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You said: I'll say this, I have no doubt at all that Francesca has a chip on her shoulder about me because of various differences we have. This was just an opportunity for her to somehow support what I was saying while simultaneously kicking me a bit. No question about it. There is no way I will be able to convince you otherwise, but you are totally wrong. There was no jab intended. I called it like I saw it, and you don't like how I saw it. You add insult to injury by insinuating malintent. Here is the innocuous comments for which you are taking such great offense: I wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' Can't you take the slightest, mildest criticism without jumping all over someone? You have enough friends to defend you, as if you needed them. Leave me alone, Jim.

Subject: Why don't I believe you? From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:37:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fran, I don't believe you in the slightest. Not the slightest. As others have said, it was an obvious point I was making that I'm far from the only one who cares to know all that I can about the attack on Halley. In fact, you yourself said as much! So why you had to agree with an anonymous troll that I even seemingly stepped out of place is beyond me. You're busted on this, Fran. What's wrong, can't you take the slightest, midlest criticism without jumping all over someone? :)

Subject: SHUT UP ALREADY, JIM [nt] From: OTS To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:43:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That was helpful :) [nt] From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 19:32:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, I can sleep now! From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 20:30:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I'm up late (it's 3.23 here) contemplating what to do with a job offer I had today which basically pays peanuts (but evolutionists say I'm a monkey anyway..). I want to help my local community, so I think I've decided not to accept the peanuts and do it for nothing for a while. Anyway, the reason I can handle all this is that I know it's not real. This world is just an illusion. Didn't you know that? No? You didn't? What the hell were you doing under your blanket for eight years? Playing with the one eyed snake? Just editing this to say thanks in case someone doesn't catch the vibe of my post:-) John

Subject: LOL! From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 20:33:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was just the right joke to get me out of my chair and on my exercise bike. See you tomorrow. :)

Subject: Oh really, Fran? What point is that? From: Jim To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 17:52:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More people than Jim care about this issue. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. I wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' What kind of bullshit, unnecessary dig is that? I'm just stating the obvious to Mike and you know it. Just like you're perfectly ready, willing and able to say that more people care about this than me, that's what I was saying too. Thanks for the criticism anyway. Was that fun for you?

Subject: answer the question From: hey bozo :p To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:42:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why do you have a problem asking the hard questions? don't want to hear the truth? attack the insignificant point as a red herring to the criticism, and force someone to argue over little detail making them look petty it's getting old, Jim

Subject: Hey let's discuss JIM From: Dermot To: hey bozo :p Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:08:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: let's forget about attempted murder and it's relation to fanatical devotion, a gurus response etc......those are trifling little matters.... who gives a FUCK?? ....and they happened SOOOOO long ago, too. Now JIM ....well that's IMPORTANT......so I agree, let's sidestep Fakiranand and shift focus a bit huh? Agreed?

Subject: Re: sooooo long ago.. From: AV To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 17:42:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw aTv documentary about the suriviving prisoners of war from Japanese camps in ww2, when questioned about their need for some kind of apology, the reporter said, 'after all, this was a long time ago..' the reponse was ' no it wasn't, it was yesterday '...the guy was cracking up with tear fiiled eyes full of pain and rage. Now many will say the FAKIRANAND incident ( I'm not picking this out as exceptional, just folllowing this thread..) is of a different level and I shouldn't make such comparisons, you may be right, but the pain of abuse DOES NOT GO AWAY WITH TIME...time is not always a healer. Trifling??? only if empathy has died.

Subject: Re: Hey let's discuss JIM From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:23:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot you're wising up to the trolls' game. :C) I hope we all do soon.

Subject: Quit fighting with everyone Jim From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No it was not fun. Get a grip. Even when I basically agree with you you've got to fight. Sheesh. Don't you have better things to do than nitpick people to death? That's the last time I'll bother backing you up. Life's too short. And who the heck is the Mike you are talking about? --f

Subject: Re: Quit fighting with everyone Jim From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:36:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No it was not fun. Get a grip. Even when I basically agree with you you've got to fight. Sheesh. Don't you have better things to do than nitpick people to death? That's the last time I'll bother backing you up. Life's too short. And who the heck is the Mike you are talking about? --f --- Fran, You took an unfair swipe at me by agreeing with that anoymous cult member that I shouldn't have spoken for others and I was responding to it. In fact, it was rather funny to see you do the exact same thing I did -- speak 'for' the 'more people than [me]' I mean, how would you know, right? Anyway, if that's what you call 'back up', don't do me any favours.

Subject: I'd back you anyday. You were there for me. From: Gail To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 16:07:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I left the cult, you (and others) took the time to help me out of my mollified fog. A few times, you were a bit harsh, but I needed it!

Subject: who's Mike? [nt] From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:32:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, I forgot. It's Donner. [nt] From: Francesca To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:39:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'd DEFINITELY like to find out From: Dermot To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:10:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as much as possible about the incident. To me , it doesn't matter if it happened yesterday or thirty years ago. I conveniently dislodged it from my conscious attention ( the flimsy amount I knew about it)because it didn't gel with my staus as a follower of Prem Pal. Now I'd like some first hand accounts of as many people as possible. Why? Well, surely you know why. It's not about some ' Mahatma/saint' saying' this is the true path not the religions in the world' or ' don't eat meat' or ' follow the path of devotion and don't listen to your mind'....yeah that stuff is bullshit but it's hardly momentous.....however when some poor sod was nearly bludgeoned to death in the name of devotion.....well that's a whole different ball game. Then Maharajis whole response (and his other mahatmas and brother) DOES matter. If you can't see why that should matter then ....well, as I say, I shelved it too, so I know where you're coming from BUT....it ain't the right place. Like so many things it's been covered up and conveniently forgotten......some things though are too important for that. From that one brutal incident and the resulting response, a lot can be learned.

Subject: Re: I'd DEFINITELY like to find out From: Livia To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:57:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can add me to the list. i'd definitely like to know. I remember the whole thing when it happened - think I was in the USA at the time, and to my shame I relegated the incident to the part of my premie brain labelled at that time 'do not examine'. Yes, it was covered up and conveniently forgotten, but why should any of us not want to know, 30 years on, what really happened? With love, Livia

Subject: Afraid to find out, Roupell? From: Jim To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Donner, like other PAMs, can fill in the picture that you're afraid to look at. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that many of us indeed want to know just how Maharaji really did act during this suspicious scandal. People are still interested in the Nixon white house tapes. Why? Because he was an important figure who lead a fascinatingly sleazy and duplicitous life. The tapes and first hand accounts from various PANs do indeed 'take us there'. Well, Maharaji was a very important person in our lives. He, too, lead a fascinatingly sleazy and duplicitous life. Figure it out.

Subject: How many times do you have to be told? From: Come on Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 00:51:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that IP 144.134.223.80 WNPP-p-144-134-223-80.prem.tmns.net.au Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC/ doth not a Roupell make! Sure he may be one of the sharpest knives in the drawer, but you are affording the guy demigod status. Why? Do you think we are all computer ignoramuses? There is no way, short of an intimate knowledge of the Hacker's Black Book, that you can isolate a single person from the information above. No, don't try and pretend that it's HIS computer (that someone else may or may not be using), I'll repeat - there is NO way you can correctly assertain that the above code refers to any given computer. If you keep brandishing his name all over this denizon of hate and loathing he may well do something about it. That's my information at this point. Remember, there are many pwk's as sharp, clear, witty and having a similarly good time in their lives as R is. It's annoying to see so much freedom and joy manifested I know. But there it is. Anyway - care to explain to us how PAMS can take us anywhere but down the dim dark corridors of their own highly subjective and biased memory lanes? Please, we're itching to know...

Subject: Well, while you're being picayune... From: E.B. White To: Come on Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:38:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: allow me to point out that 'If you keep brandishing his name all over this denizon (sic) of hate and loathing...' a denizen is a person not a place. I guess you're a duller knife than Roupell.

Subject: Re: Well, while you're being picayune... From: Strunk To: E.B. White Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:02:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually DR is only semi-literate too. This troll is obviously either too thick to understand Jim's sense of humor or is deliberately misunderstanding it for the purpose of debasing and insulting him. And I speak from experience of having my words either sincerely misunderstood because of a lack of subtilty on the reader's part or deliberately misunderstood for malicious reasons. PatC

Subject: 'denizen of hate and loathing' From: Dermot To: Come on Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: come off it .....

Subject: who, unlike me, enjoys being a troll. From: Carlos - To my fellow premie To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:26:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm interested in knowing the truth about the Halley/Fakiranand incident, too. I don't know if that's really possible or not, as if 1/4 of the stories I've heard (usually at 5th hand or further) are true it was done thru so many small 'cells' that, absent some tapes like those that tripped up Nixon surfacing and being authenticated, I don't see how enough of the truth to paint the complete picture can come out. But maybe it could. And, tho I hate to be defending Jim, his statement that many would be interested seems to me to just be common sense. By the way, my take at the time was 'F comes from a culture where it's thought to be OK for a Sadu to beat up someone who disrespects his Guru, so I can understand his action, but Boy! was he wrong to do it! It could hurt the Master's work in the West!' I acknowledge the insensitifity. My only excuse is I heard about it after Halley was out of danger, and it was when I was probably most gung ho as a premie, back when I was part of DLM Puerto Rico.

Subject: TAM back online (for a while) From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:47:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've no doubt that Maha & Co will get this shut down yet again so it's on a throw-away site that's dispensable. Read it now while it's online. (see above link) The Truth About Maharaji realmaharaji.mybravenet.com/Truth/truth.htm

Subject: Thanks Dave..... From: PatD To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:51:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you do have a fine collector's eye for a bloodstained carpet. That site was the one which really blew me away when I got my 1st internet connection less than 2yrs ago, began to revisit my forgotten younger self,& started to wonder why I had been such a fool for so long. Highly reccommended to all lurking premies.

Subject: CD Rom of site also available From: Sir Dave To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:28:52 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: Thanks PatD. If you or anyone wants a CD Rom (PC not Mac) with the whole site on, just email me a snailmail address where I can send it to and I'll get it off to you, pronto! It doesn't matter where you are in the world, I'll post it to you by the quickest and most secure method possible which will probably be by ''Swiftair'' to people in continents outside Europe. Of course, I won't divulge to anyone, the snailmail address you give to me and it goes without saying, your email address and name will be confidential. My email address is above on this post.

Subject: Scientology critics taken off the web From: Francesca To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:15:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Google restores web page critical of scientology. There's also related articles in the sidebar. Yahoo news Fri Mar 22, 1:30 AM ET By Elinor Mills Abreu SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Google (news - external web site) Inc. restored a Web site critical of the Church of Scientology on its Internet search engine on Thursday while free speech advocates slammed the company for removing the site in the first place. Google said the company had only removed certain pages from the site because of a copyright dispute. 'Certain pages of the Xenu.net Web site were removed from our search engine earlier this week in response to a copyright infringement notification under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (news - web sites) (DMCA),' Google spokesman David Krane said in an e-mail. The home page for Xenu.net was 'inadvertently removed' along with a long, two-page list of associated Web pages on Wednesday but was put back on Thursday, said Google spokeswoman Cindy McCaffrey. Neither she nor Krane were available for further comment. On Thursday evening, the Web site was listed fourth under Google search results for 'Scientology' and 8th under 'Church of Scientology.' A lawyer representing the Church of Scientology accused Xenu.net of 'wholesale, verbatim copyright infringement' by allegedly reprinting large amounts of material on the site. 'We don't abuse this act,' the lawyer, Helena Kobrin of the Los Angeles firm of Moxin & Kobrin said of the DMCA. 'We go very strictly by what the copyright laws are.' Copyright law allows people to use pieces of copyrighted material for personal, education and other purposes under a so-called 'fair use' provision. However, Kobrin said the Web site used more than was allowed under fair use. 'We will do whatever we can to protect these copyrights,' she said. 'The real story here is my clients are constantly the targets of some really horrendous stuff on the Internet.' The Church of Scientology, whose members include actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta, has mounted challenges to Web sites and organizations that are critical of it in the past. STIFLING CRITICISM Robin Gross, staff attorney for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the Church of Scientology was trying to use copyright law to stifle criticism. 'A lot of the cases using copyright to quell critics are Church of Scientology cases,' she said. The DMCA protects companies that host or link to Web sites from being held liable if they notify allegedly offending Web sites that there is a complaint about them and give them a chance to respond, Gross said. Google did not have to remove Xenu.net immediately, as the company claimed it did in a letter to Andreas Heldal-Lund, the Norwegian Web master of the site, attorney Gross said. 'Had we not removed these URLs (uniform resource locators, or network address of Web pages), we would be subject to a claim for copyright infringement, regardless of its merit,' Google said in its letter. Don Marti, an activist who protested the arrest of a Russian programmer under the DMCA last year, said he and other activists met with Google on Thursday to discuss the situation. 'Google invited us right in,' said Marti, whose ad hoc group is called 'Mountain View, California, Xenu Independent Study Group.' Google had the Web site back up before the group arrived at its Mountain View offices on Thursday afternoon, he said. 'We're discussing Google's DMCA policy and trying to keep this from happening again,' Marti said. 'Google should be a fair and accurate representation of what's on the Internet.' Scientiology, the BIGFOOT story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020322/wr_nm/tech_google_dc

Subject: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Roger eDrek To: Francesca Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 21:18:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was Marianne who directed me to the EFF when Maharaji and his lawyers (Bob Jacobs) illegally used the DMCA to order my ISP to shutdown the House of Maharaji Drek in the fall of 2000. I jumped 4 feet into the air when I received notice from my ISP that Maharaji and Company had backed down and the House of Drek was still alive. My ISP had put it into quarantine. I did have to remove some of the links to allegedly acquired internal documents. The bad part of it all is that Maharaji and Company know exactly who I am and that I live in Seattle, Washington and work at Microsoft. Oh, well. But, having Freedom of speech is vital and important to all segments of society. It was very interesting taking part in a small personal battle for that right and I'm glad that I did. My ISP, a small fish, really didn't want to have any controversy at all and they wanted to just boot me off. I had to threaten to sue them as well as Maharaji. There were a lot of lawyers involved, Robin Gross and Marianne for me, the ISP lawyers, and Maharaji and his.

Subject: Re: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Marianne To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:13:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: drek: I don't think it was an accident Robin Gross ended up involved in the Scientology webfight. Sounds like she's developing an anti cult subspecialty in her practice at EFF. Marianne

Subject: you are probably correct, Marianne From: Roger eDrek To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:48:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, Robin is the person for these issues.

Subject: Re: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Francesca To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:46:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is great that Robin Gross is developing this speciality. I think she also helped some people who spoke out on a bulletin board in a case about a year ago. As I recall, the lawsuit was dropped once she and EFF became involved. Thanks for the story Drek and Marianne, and thanks for standing up to the Evil Empire. And in this case, I don't mean Microsoft -- LOLs! --f

Subject: Re: Scientology's tactics (another source) From: janet To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 23:31:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just about to start a new thred when I saw that you had already put this up, Fran, so I am posting my findings under yours. I wa sjust reading this at slashdot. when you click thru to the article, take the time to read the accompanying links. they are conveniently listed in the right side menu so you can read each one in turn. Slashdot's coverage of this slashdot.org/yro/02/03/21/0453200.shtml?tid=99

Subject: I love a story with a happy ending... [nt] From: gerry To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:44:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thank you, Maharaji! From: Gregg To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:52:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharajism does work, in a sense, and here is why it works, in a word: Gratitude. Feeling grateful is one of the surest keys to happiness. If you can feel grateful for EVERYTHING...wow. And this is what religion offers: a person/entity to whom you can direct your gratitude. In this particular religion, there is a particular person, a real live person to whom you can say 'Thank you, for this gift of life.' Meditation is part of it, of course, but gratitude to the master becomes a basket where you can throw all the confusing bits, and the master becomes, as in the song Arti, a father, a mother, a brother and a friend. Thus providing an omnipresent emotional secuity blanket. So what could be wrong with this path of devotion? Obviously, being an ex-premie, I must have a beef with this whole thing. (BTW, not having been in the cult for a while...are PWK's still vegetarians?) One strain of thought among exes is that the whole guru system is corrupt and wrongheaded. (See the book 'The Guru Papers.') I think a guru can communicate/transmit valuable info,although most of them, even the 'authentic' ones, seem to end up corrupted by the power they assume over their follower's lives. And if a guru helps you out, the natural gratitude you feel can help you in the process of developing an unproblematic orientation toward your life and the world. The problem with unlimited devotion to Maharaji is that the reality of who he is does not enter into the formula at all. As premies, we attributed omniscience to him which he most definitely does not have. Our devotion was untethered to reality. If you believe all religion/spiritual work is fantasy, fine. But for those of us who meditate, ex-premies and PWK's, it should be crucial that whatever beliefs we have are not held out of emotional needs irrespective of real-life facts. Spiritual work is supposed to help us remove emotional and cultural blinders and see life as it is. It was my experience as a premie that I was simply entering a different 'trance state,' a 'spiritual' one, to be sure, but not a state of increased awareness, the ostensible goal of the path of Knowledge. It's called Knowledge, but that is a terrible misnomer. You don't learn anything about 'ultimate reality' or the 'non-dual state' or 'God' at all. All you learn (and boy, do you learn it well!) is a set of beliefs about this Divine Master named Maharaji and your relationship to him. It is a comfortable cocoon, but that is all it is. A real Master would challenge you, not lull you into trance. A real Master would care about you more than he cared about his material possessions. And a real Master would not call himself a Master, in my opinion. I'm going to New Mexico for a week...happy spring to y'all!

Subject: Gratitude to God in a Bod From: PatC To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:04:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aldous Huxley said that the highest happiness - heaven - was gratitude. I agree. This world is awesome. But there's no need for god in a bod. It's an easy way out for peasants whose lives are bleak.

Subject: Re: Thank you, Maharaji! From: Disculta To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:40:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, indeed, this is a point that has been made before, but is crucial I think. The 'Knowledge' is a particular set of yogic techniques that produce a particular kind of phenomenal experience (light, etc.) - or don't work at all. It is all about creating or accessing an energetic phenomenon (light, music, Snot - which isn't snot in my experience sorry Anth) and using them as portals for a kind of trance which one is taught to label as spiritual experience. Another view of spiritual experience would say that this is merely the experiencing of phenomena, similar to any other phenomena, and while anything can work as a point of focus to help relax the mind (prior to driving you crazy with boredom after a few weeks, months or years), we were taught that these phenomena were actually 'God.' Which meant that the rest of life other than these phenomena was 'not God.' Of course the God word is loaded, but there are zillions of people out there meditating in many very, very different ways, with no bells or whistles like 'knowledge' to distract them. It's a bit glamorous, the old Knowledge. Like just being with your own awareness is somehow not quite enough and so you have to have these dramatic inner Bollywood experiences. Some people do, perhaps once or twice (although I bet more people fake these experiences in K sessions than fake orgasm on spring break). When you're in the whole carefully doubt-pruned and belief-conditioned field of being a premie, you come to believe that these strange little cracks in the body lead you to the divine experience. Yet we know from our experience and from talking to people who've been doing it for years, that a remarkabe dearth of actual equanimity, compassion, real acceptance and so on actually seem to arise from these practices. The best might be that one is focusing a bit on breathing which can center the mind and be healthy (and is nothing special nor unique to K). 'Knowledge' is just 4 techniques out of a smorgasbord of many Radha Soami techniques. MJ picked 4 for the west. Even his brother teaches 6 I think. They are even more pathetic when they involve holding your arms in the air, or scrunching up on your knees. Completely block the life energy moving through the body. If you are still in the unfortunate conditioned belief system that believes there is something very very special about MJ and 'his' knowledge, know that it's just a conditioned belief system. There is definitely, in my experience, a possibility of experiencing higher consciousness and great expansiveness while human. But these pathetic pieces of techniques, not even understood or mastered by their so-called master (who even gets defensive when asked if he meditates!) are not much of a portal to the self, imnsho. love ktd

Subject: Thanks Gregg - BEST OF (nt) From: Crispy To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:59:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Thank you, Maharaji! From: AV To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:23:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember at Central Hall westminster 1971,M saying something to the effect of (a reference to color-prejudice)'you are not accepting me, you are accepting my knowledge, knowledge hasn't got a color...'If one had a 'spritual teacher' who enabled one to have an enriched life and wiser, broader vision of existence, then I imagine it would be completely normal to feel love, respect admiration, and perhaps that is natural response; if I were a young violinist and had been taught by, say, Yehudi Menhuin, how could one not feel a sense of 'devotion' (if that is the right word). it can appear disturbing when that love , respect etc. is demanded as a pre-requisite for the process to work, and is in fact promoted via videos etc. Such a relationship surely is private , almost sacred in that respect, and to market 'adoration of the master'as if it were a product comes across as indiscrete and tacky, and only has merit if one is 'preaching to the converted'.I can't help but feel saddened...

Subject: Yes, it is tacky, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:11:01 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: You said: ''...it can appear disturbing when that love, respect etc. is demanded as a pre-requisite for the process to work, and is in fact promoted via videos etc....'' Instead of renaming Knowledge to Self-Knowledge maybe Rawat should have called it K-Mart. Have I talked to you before, AV? If not - how do you do? I'm Patrick Conlon of San Francisco.

Subject: Oh Waiter, cheque please! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:06:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I almost forgot. A couple of weeks ago I registered for the second greatest event in the history of the planet: the next gathering of the Tribe of Rawat in Australia. Yes indeedy, those sharp as nails coordinators of the Greasiest Show on Earth have accepted my request to visit the Lard Incarnalate at his abode in Jonestown, I mean Amaroo. The door is truly always open and my heart soars like a swan! ...except now I'm getting dunning e-mail for my payment by 'cheque.' Oh Lard won't you buy me a ticket to Oz!

Subject: The dower is open for me! From: Gail To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 13:45:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lucky you! You can still bask in the sunshine of the Lard's love. Unfortunately, as we all know, the door was closed in my face in December, 1998 in Toronto. I am not welcome at the Lard's feet. ... Leaving your lotus feet, oh where would I go? Why to sanity, my Lard!

Subject: The cost of doing business! From: Gail To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 14:29:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Registration and Onsite Accommodation Options for Amaroo PLEASE NOTE THAT PIONEER TENTS, BOTH SINGLE AND TWIN, ARE NOW FULLY BOOKED AND NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Please select ONE of the following options. If you are choosing an onsite accommodation, you do not need to select registration, because registration is included in your package. All costs are per person, in US dollars. Costs are inclusive of the mandatory 10% Australia Goods and Services Tax (GST). If you choose twin or double, please enter the name of the person you are sharing with in the space provided below the options. Registration Only -- US$156 (includes $14.18 GST) Cost: $156.00 Deluxe Single--US$1,510 including registration (includes $137.27 GST) Deluxe Double--US$ 1,210 including registration (includes $110 GST) What a business, eh? How much does it cost to sleep in a tent? Wouldn't these minions be better off at a hotel? Meanwhile, I think Aussie dollars are worth about 50% less than US dollars. This equates to about $225 for registration only, $2 250 for a deluxe sleep in a single tent, and $1 800 for a deluxe double. I slept there once. It was so cold at night that I had to get a down comforter. Of course, I didn't want to leave 'the land' and miss the chance to run into the Lard.

Subject: Excellent idea From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:39:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about taking up a collection so that Gerry, John, or Marge Large, or maybe Pauline Premie could attend the 'event' in Amaroo, with the proviso that they must report back every detail here and on EPO. Perhaps we could also invest in hidden recording equipment/video cameras? On requirement, you MUST go through the darshan line, but actual contact of lips to the pudgy feet of 'the speaker' would not be required. I think this is an excellent idea, and I would be happy to donate. Now, does anyone have the stomach to actually go?

Subject: MiniDisc recorder w/stealth mics From: Francesca To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:51:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If the person who goes has a minidisc recorder they can use stealth mics. They are very small (but not cheap) and can be put into a pair of 'croakies' sunglass holders. Francesca Minidisc stealth mics www.soundprofessionals.com/

Subject: I love this 007 stuff... From: PatD To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:36:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...let's get heem really paranoid. A telescopic blowpipe hidden in a a packet of Marlboro,with the curare tipped dart inside a pen. Probably only work from the front row,kind of like a suicide mission for the perp. but shit,what a way to go......poooft.....I just offed the Lord of the Universe 'cos he's spent my trust fund & anyway he never said he was the Lord of the Universe,so I plead insanity. Then there's the......I'm joking of course. Love : PatD

Subject: Where's Your Smart Card? From: Dumbass To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No SmartCard needed, Dumbass From: gerry To: Dumbass Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:05:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I've got two weeks to submit... payment. JOE, LET'S GET THIS PARTICIPATION CONTRIBUTION THINGY ROLLING ! I'M OFF TO SEE THE WIZARD !! VISA AND MASTERCARD ACCEPTED !!!

Subject: How much? From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:42:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the cheapest, erd I mean, most economical, Amaroo plan available? I think that requires sleeping in a basic tent right next to a heavily-used toilet or something, but, hey, it's for a good cause.

Subject: I got the 'Pioneer Twin' From: gerry To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:03:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the cheapest, erd I mean, most economical, Amaroo plan available? I think that requires sleeping in a basic tent right next to a heavily-used toilet or something, but, hey, it's for a good cause. --- I happened to pick just that plan in my registration. I felt this was modestly priced at $235 dollars US, of course, for two nights. And I'm dying to meet my new roommate. Hope's she's the chatty sort and doesn't snore too much. We have to discuss a food budget. I'm absolutely not standing in those horrid lines for hours in the heat to eat some sloppy dahl over mushy brown rice again ever in my life! No,it's whatshername The Torch Singer's Restaurant or nothing for me. my reg at EV www.regonline.com/reports/profile.asp?eid=4946&aid=83497

Subject: volunteers are putting them up - From: Wrt your 'Pioneer Twin To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 21:14:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When is someone going to forward this information to the volunteers who set up those tents at $32 (Aus?) each? Tent city boggles mind OVER several weekends in March and April about 154 SES Volunteers and SES Cadets from Ipswich, Boonah, Esk and Redcliffe erected 850 tents at the Ivory Rock Convention Centre near Ipswich. Volunteers had to erect the tents according to specifications set out by the hosts, lay internal carpeting and flooring in each tent and fit out the tents with bedding, cupboards and other furniture. Over 2000 tents were erected to accommodate 4000 delegates from more than 60 countries in what is believed to be the largest open air convention ever held in the southern hemisphere. The Elan Vital conference was lead by the Indian spiritual 'guru' Maharaji, who taught delegates the 'four secrets of his non-religious way to enlightenment.' 'The SES Units receive $32 per tent,' said District Manager Brian Scotney. 'While the work is time consuming (not to mention back breaking), the outcomes definitely make it worthwhile,' 'Our work is just a small part of this operation - the total infrastructure is mind boggling!' he said. (if you have PDF, you can see a picture!) http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/ses/PDFs/SES_News/SES_NEWS-Mar-Apr_2001.pdf http link www.google.ca/search?q=cache:8Pa4mMEPzGEC:www.emergency.qld.gov.au/ses/PDFs/SES_News/SES_NEWS-Mar-Apr_2001.pdf+guru++tent+volunteers+australia&hl=en

Subject: It's a darn good thing I booked when I did From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:24:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because, look at this: Registration and Onsite Accommodation Options PLEASE NOTE THAT PIONEER TENTS, BOTH SINGLE AND TWIN, ARE NOW FULLY BOOKED AND NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Please select ONE of the following options. If you are choosing an onsite accommodation, you do not need to select registration, because registration is included in your package. All costs are per person, in US dollars. Costs are inclusive of the mandatory 10% Australia Goods and Services Tax (GST). If you choose twin or double, please enter the name of the person you are sharing with in the space provided below the options. Registration Only -- US$156 (includes $14.18 GST) Cost: $156.00 Oops, i missed this one Deluxe Single -- US$1,510 including registration (includes $137.27 GST) Cost: $1,510.00 Deluxe Double -- US$ 1,210 including registration (includes $110 GST) Cost: $1,210.00 The cheapest flight from Seattle to Brisbane is $1462. plus $A40 for transport from Brisbane to the uh, compound. Hey this is getting expensive and we haven't eaten a thing!

Subject: I know someone who From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 00:46:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: walked in the front gates for free, three years ago. He told me the whole money threat is vaporware. If you show up at the roadway, and babble a bunch of well known names from over the years, and toss off a couple of famous events you went to down the years, they shrug and let you walk in for nothing. there's nothing that says you HAVE to travel by THEIR agency. If you could get to OZ leaving early, migrating across the pacific on the cheap, you could get there in advance of the event and probably weasel your way right in as ground staff. The money up front, the registration illusion--it's all sheer holographic projection. It only looks real. When you walk right up to it, it turns out to be insubstantial and you can put your hand right thru it. And then your body. And walk in, free. NO card, no reg, no fee, no nuttin. They haven't got the heart to turn anyone away. They can't afford to! They need to fill seats. They need to look like they have numbers! The have to hope that money will be spent once inside the grounds! And the fewer people show up, the worse it looks. You don't really think that if a premie shows up at the gates of amaroo and tells them he managed to come all the way for america, or canada, or anywhere, that they're gonna actually not let him enter??? think about it. who else in the whole world even knows who mharaji IS? Isn't the whole urge driving the phenomenon, the yearning to get more people to come? Bring more people in on the secret? Make the audience bigger? Be able to share the same thing with someone else who knows the same secret?? Given the leader's fatal weakness for an audience, I would bet that the very notion of keeping a premie out, would be impossible to reinforce in the end. Leave no room for doubt in your mind: Walk in like you own the place. Really--we do.

Subject: They won't let me in From: Gail To: janet Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 17:08:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got turned away for posting on this site back in 1998.

Subject: He might have got in free, but ... From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:41:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could this be the Amaroo equivalent of having to wash the dishes ... (ie washing the shit out of all the premies' heads?) www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/amarooouthouse.jpg

Subject: Was this used at Orlando, 1975 for darshan? From: Gail To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 17:02:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It looks like the one he used when he had two lines kissing his toe-toes simultaneously.

Subject: I think Richard has it (nt) From: Joe To: Dumbass Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:35:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Here it is From: GetSmart (aka Richard) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:55:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We here at GetSmart facilitation and synchronicity synchronization facilities are always ready to go beyond industry standards to identify our non-members in a facilitated synchronicity. Notice that we've gone beyond the worn out technology of printed cards. We now use web-based cards exclusively. EPO GetSmart Never a membership since whenever Joe Got Smart 64.45.46.159/photo/getsmart_jw.jpg

Subject: GetSmart facilitation/synchronization facilities From: cq To: GetSmart (aka Richard) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:49:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: er ... is that a mobile phone in your hand, Agent Smart, or are you just pleased to get close to your sole? i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1150/5926_0014.jpg

Subject: Have no fear From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:16:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elan Vital is a registered charity in many countries. I'm sure they'll help you out.

Subject: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Dep =) To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:38:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the loneliest moments of your life did you look to the intellect for the answers or guidance? I doubt it. Historians tell us we live in the 'age of anxiety.' There have been few times in history where human beings have been subject to so much fear and distress. So where do we look for guidance? How about political freedom? IMO political freedom has not led to a better world. Most Western countries have political freedom and democracy yet the angst remains. How about education? Maybe political freedom plus education would do the trick. That will lead us down a bright, well-lit sensible path won’t it? Has it? We are the most informed people in the history of civilisation and yet the most confused. Most high school students know more about the physical laws of the universe than the greatest scientist in the days of Aristotle. But while our heads are crammed with data, our hearts are empty, and the angst remains. Well how about a higher standard of living? Perhaps that will make us happier and more content. Yeah that’s the ticket - more stuff. But look around. At this moment in history the West has political freedom undreamed of years ago, an extensive public education system open to all, and an unparalleled standard of living. Have these things brought us the satisfaction, happiness and contentment we were seeking? I don’t think so. Do all these modern wonders bring us a sense of completion, do they explain why we are here, and give us a sense of belonging? Or do people feel more empty, alone and helpless than ever. Does the antidote for human fear and hatred and evil lie in some laboratory test tube or some computer circuit? If you want the answer check out your daily newspaper. Like a spider we have become ensnared in the web of our own thoughts, trapped so cleverly that we can no longer see either the cause or the cure of the disease that is inflicting such lethal pain. Skyrocketing suicide rates among teens, divorce, alienated children, bored people constantly seeking to be entertained, constantly buying more stuff, watching more videos, taking more pills, all in a misguided attempt to lose that awful, frightening, hollow feeling of being lost and alone. So what is the cure for this emptiness and suffering? More science? More stuff? I think not. IMO the answer is the Spirit and belief in God, however you choose to define that higher power. Filling ourselves with science, education, better living and pleasure, filling ourselves with the many things we thought we wanted or were told by advertisers we wanted, simply doesn’t fill the emptiness. Materialism is leading us nowhere but down - and eventually out. We will never fill the distressing emptiness in ourselves unless we acknowledge the Spirit, that higher power, and turn it over. IMO we will never end the angst and confusion until we contact and experience that which is unchanging within. The intellect is limited. During WWII, Dr. Reinhold Neibuhr wrote the following prayer, which happens to be my favourite: God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change Courage to change the things I can And wisdom to know the difference. Are there things in this life that we cannot change, that we just have to accept? I think so. Spirit is the answer. =)

Subject: Re: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about trying creativity? Writing, playing music if you're that way inclined, painting (ditto), or sculpture, or learning to act, or learning any new skill for that matter? It sounds as if you've fallen prey to a particular type of nihilism that tends to beset so many premies after years and years of listening to Maharaji imply that human activities, such as those I named above, have little or no intrinsic value. I know a lot of people, not premies, who lead deep, rich and fulfilling lives. They are often creative people. They often set things up that are of huge value to their communities. They dispense much warmth and humour. Try to see beyond that premie-ish way of looking at the world. It's basically a very negative and, I think, erroneous view. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Jerry To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:38:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IMO the answer is the Spirit and belief in God, however you choose to define that higher power. And what if there is no God, Dep? Do we just pretend there is because it makes us happy? What about a longing for truth? Do we stifle that to find a nice, warm, snuggly cocoon to hide in. Seems to me that's what you're suggesting.

Subject: Having a heart From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:38:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't equate to belief in fairytales, Dep. Imagination is a poor substitute for reality and an even poorer substitute for intellect. When I need comforting, I look to my wife, my child and my friends. They never disappoint, especially when it's obvious that I require some TLC. What's more.... it's R.E.A.L! They REALLY love me.... they REALLY care.... M couldn't care less if he tried.... god doesn't care because to care requires something that cares (e.g. he/she/it must exist). Imagined love and caring are the absolute poorest subtstitute for intellect, Dep. Think about it this way.... EVEN JIM cares more about you than M ever did..... how can I say this? Hey, at least Jim TALKS TO YOU and he's a real human being, too.

Subject: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:02:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not.

Subject: Re: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:24:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know.

Subject: Now you sound like an apocalyptic christian From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know. --- Yes, Dog, there must be a spiritual realm given all the troubles in the world -- which, I agree, are completely unprecedented. I had my doubts but when I thought of NASDAQ I realized that you, Hal Lindsey and Pat Roberston all must be right. These really are strange and ominous times. There are problems in the world, says Dog, so why not be spiritual? As for what I did under my blanket and why I stayed, I say this with all due respect, if, after reading this forum for the last couple of years, you still have that question, you really don't get nothing. You are entirely oblivious to the entire cult conditioning that caught you, yes, but left you dangling for the last two and a half decades with your head hanging out the net. Put it together for us, Dog. Spell it out. You think that Knowledge is real, right? What does that make Maharaji? Hm?

Subject: apocalyptic christian no just guardedly optimistic From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:49:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know. --- Yes, Dog, there must be a spiritual realm given all the troubles in the world -- which, I agree, are completely unprecedented. I had my doubts but when I thought of NASDAQ I realized that you, Hal Lindsey and Pat Roberston all must be right. These really are strange and ominous times. There are problems in the world, says Dog, so why not be spiritual? As for what I did under my blanket and why I stayed, I say this with all due respect, if, after reading this forum for the last couple of years, you still have that question, you really don't get nothing. You are entirely oblivious to the entire cult conditioning that caught you, yes, but left you dangling for the last two and a half decades with your head hanging out the net. Put it together for us, Dog. Spell it out. You think that Knowledge is real, right? What does that make Maharaji? Hm? --- I woulda stayed 8 months tops! TOPS!

Subject: Re: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:14:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this is classic: '....It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge'....' Isn't that part of what the whole premie cult-trip was supposed to do? Make it possible to 'just forget' about everything and everyone you considered important without batting an eyelash? After all... we are on this secret, sacred, most-holy journey to never-never land.... that we get to experience...... LATER! he he he :) I agree, I don't think dep is really an ex, yet. When he discovers that you must equate the 'teacher' with 'that which is taught,' THEN he/she will be an ex.

Subject: A fear-based appeal to ignorance From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:42:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fancy talk masking fear and ingorance. You should put a collar on, Dog, and start a church.

Subject: i don't see fear in that. From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but I don't think the ending is the answer either. I think the 'answer' is much vaster, more variegated, and the discussion ought to be far more eclectic than this.

Subject: Jim, you are shackled to logic [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:52:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excuse me??! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not the one who just now, after years and years of every warning sign flashing like crazy, literal years, in fact, right here on this very forum, disputing the most obvious truth with the stupidest apologist arguments, has finally realized that the one-time teenage Lord of the Universe is fake. And you're going to tell me how to think properly?! You're a joke.

Subject: logic isn't all, Jim From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:18:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the very idea of telling another how to think makes my hackles go up, and probably others' as well. there is an offensive arrogance to telling someone else how they should think, or in treating them dismissively because of how they think. every organism has to think for itself, by itself. you don't know what it is to be anyone but you. and while you crusade as if you wanted to meet up with a whole society of people who would think just like you do, in truth, you would be ego- offended unto madness if you met even one other 'you' face to face. you have no idea how much of your sense of yourself comes from the fact that you are the only one of you ever made. you think yuo want others to be like you but actually, you don't. newsflash for ya, JIMbo-- each one of us, out here, is also the only one of us, ever made, and we like the way we are. I see no need to duplicate and be like you, do what you're doing, and expecially, to think as you think --- BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY DOING IT AND WHY BE REDUNDANT IF IT'S ALREADY BEING DONE? there is far more to the organism, and to life, than logic. I wish you would lose the use of your left brain for just a couple of months. Just long enough to transform your addiction. and using dep's particular timeline and process to exit , contrasted with yours, doesn't make for a genuine example. there are other processes, other realizations, other feelings, besides your logic, which move a person to a decision in life.

Subject: 'Logic' would be a damned good start From: Janet To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:29:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, despite Jim's 'strong' response to silliness, per se, I don't believe that he is TELLING anyone 'what' to think, but rather 'how' to get started. For those that have thought of the 'mind' as the 'enemy' for so long, someone HAS to do that, at the very least. Do you really believe that, without proper secular schooling, you would have thought up the proper way to think? I don't! I'm really happy that I was taught 'how' to think, not 'what' to think. If someone is telling you 'what' to think, then thay are anti-thought, right? I don't believe for a second that Jim could ever be accused of being anti-thought. Anyway, I digress.... logical thought is a 'way of thinking,' not 'what to think.' It is something that needs to be 'exercised' to be effective. I would say that us 'cult folks' can use all of the exercise we can get. I'm glad that people take the time to remind me/us of this, aren't you?

Subject: Re: 'Logic' would be a damned good start From: PatC's Mom To: Janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:09:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC: ''Maharaji shows you that the mind is the problem.'' PatC's Mom: ''But how do you know what he's talking about without your mind?'' Goya, the Spanish painter: ''The imagination is what makes us different from the animals. Imagination without reason leads to the creation of impossible monsters. Imagination wedded to reason leads to art.''

Subject: Oopppssss! (the above is mine) From: New-Age Redneck To: Janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:30:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've almost 'done that' several times today..... I finally did it! :)

Subject: Try the edit button. It works. From: Richard To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 19:29:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum Tip #37 If you want to correct a post, add to it, edit, practice revisionism, whatever, you can. Just click the (edit this message) button at the bottom of the message box when you read it. You can edit your message for a certain time frame after you post it.

Subject: One point I agree wholeheartedly on From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:26:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One point I agree wholeheartedly on, Janet. You say: 'there is an offensive arrogance to telling someone else how they should think, or in treating them dismissively because of how they think'. Yup, but you see, Jim gets paid for doing just that. I guess it's only natural that his legal training leaves very few qualms about honing his professional skills (or sharpening his teeth) by taking on virtually ANY argument, ESPECIALLY an argument he has a natural (well, natural given his disillusionment with the likes of the Maha) dislike for.

Subject: Janet's at it again! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 09:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is so funny. Janet, I must say you have your very own form of hypocrisy that's simply ...um, out of this world maybe? Here you are lecturing me for telling Dog how to think or talk, but then look at you: Take the time to reach into yourself, Dep. When you speak to someone, give them something real, from you alone. Describe what you have come understand using your own words and meanings. It may take practice. You may find that you slip into the urge to throw convenient quotes all too often. Be rigorous with yourself. Be authentic. Be genuine. Be original. Be new. You're too much, Yoda. I wonder, though, why you can't see this. Oh well, I guess there's a lot going on in that head of yours. Must get a little busy at times, huh?

Subject: Re: Well excuse me??! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:42:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not the one who just now, after years and years of every warning sign flashing like crazy, literal years, in fact, right here on this very forum, disputing the most obvious truth with the stupidest apologist arguments, has finally realized that the one-time teenage Lord of the Universe is fake. And you're going to tell me how to think properly?! You're a joke. --- Jim, I will never tire of your insults. The inner experience of Knowledge is real. The Spirit is the most real and lasting thing there is. Everything else changes. You know, the law of entropy and all that. Excuuuuuuuuse me? I'm not telling how to think properly. I'm telling that thought is limited. But if you want to put all your eggs in the 'rational basket,' go right ahead, feel free - if that's possible.

Subject: A Third Way? From: gerry To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:57:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK granted, materialism leaves gaps in our experience. But is the gawd and spiritualism really any better? Look at what the gawd and 'spiritualism' hath wrought-read the papers. Not much better than materialism I would say. Perhaps we need to make a sort humanism-and this is an undeveloped thought on my part- our model for living. I think it's fairly well fleshed out philosophy, but then I'm not much of a philosopher. My 'gut' feeling is if we concentrate less on material things, ignore the gawdism, and really learn to love one another we will be living in the Magic Kingdom. But then there's that damn pesky human nature, right bill? Nice essay though, Dog.

Subject: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: Crispy To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:45:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These two have been fighting with each other forever it seems - they should get married ;) Seriously I think they both have their own merits and dangers; but I can't imagine going for either AT THE COST OF or in place of, separate from, the other. Kind of like man's technological growth - it's good as long as his spiritual growth stays on par..... Now spirituality and religiosity - those two have been married WAY too long and should have been divorced long ago....

Subject: Sorry, but that really mean something? From: Jim To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 14:23:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These two have been fighting with each other forever it seems - they should get married ;) Seriously I think they both have their own merits and dangers; but I can't imagine going for either AT THE COST OF or in place of, separate from, the other. Kind of like man's technological growth - it's good as long as his spiritual growth stays on par..... Now spirituality and religiosity - those two have been married WAY too long and should have been divorced long ago.... --- What is this, Crispy? A regurgitation of Maharaji's old bullshit line about the west having a long material leg and the east having a long spiritual one and blah blah blah blah blah? Does this kind of talk actually mean anything? How do you define spirituality anyway? To me, it's belief in the supernatural. If you don't have that, you don't have spirituality, you just have being nice and stuff. We can all be nice and stuff without going anywhere near ideas like 'spirituality'. Just ...... be nice. :)

Subject: Re: Sorry, but that really mean something? From: Crispy To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:23:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Shite yes, I'm not surprised to get a response/question like yours. I'll try my best to clarify, although you probably won't like what I have to say. First of all, I'm guilty of using the term 'spirituality' very loosely. But the last thing I will ever do is try to define it as one thing for everybody, because I know it means many different things to different people. It further complicates defining when so many attempts at further understanding & improving who we are in any way other than the physical body & thoughts have been lumped under the 'spirituality or borderline spiritual experience' umbrella, i.e. - - from a Raiki healing session - to a supernatural hogwash psychic reading - to 'studying Zen without studying Zen' - to some nice brain chemisty (I think this is what mine was mostly) - to falling increasingly in love with the ugly, hairy thing next door with each additional mug of ale (?) - respect for life (and other's rights) - creative expression, i.e. a soul-purging song or beautiful piece of music - some good weed or acid - a near death experience - a 'coffee break' from spinning thoughts - a yoga relaxation exercise or a placidified (such a word?) central nervous system - arriving in one piece at the end of a whitewater run you were scared shitless to attempt (don't agree with this one) - making it with someone you love - recalling eternity in the moment with a breeze rustling in some neutron-giving trees that seem to have been there forever (er, at least long before, and after, you) - attending a sweat lodge session at a 1st Nations gathering - right down to slow-cooked food and environmental responsiveness Seriously, you can bet that after running from his feet, I've been going thru some major redefining of my own of what spirituality is to me, myself & I alone. And you can be VERY assured I'm not about to equate it with any of Mj's bullshit lines. Let alone with another 'master', thank you very much. I'm taking the cliche 'enjoying life' to new dimensions of my own, and I'm calling it MY OWN spirituality. Speaking of cliches, I also get 'sick to my stomach' (there's 1 4 u) upon hearing more cult-conditioned terms and definitions, repeated so frequently that I immediately feel the urge to go for a nap upon hearing first word of such lines. So I, too, appreciate someone who's unafraid to dig under a conditioned idea to say what they honestly think and feel for themselves. BTW, but I won't forget that a cliche, yes, can still contain an applicable truth. I won't chuck something on the premise alone that it's a coined phrase I've heard before, if it happens to still contain something credible. But this is a side note... Backtracking, when I used the words 'spiritual growth' in my line above in comparison to technological growth, I was referring to respect, reverence for and preservation of life and others' rights. And that's a very basic & loose reference, I admit. However, to clarify, these virtues are sorely needed hand-in-hand with our leaps in technological know-how, with which we can do much good, but can also wipe ourselves out pretty quickly. That's all I was getting at there. And I stand by separating anything spiritual (in whatever way it means to anyone - even if it's just some enjoyable brain chemistry) separating it from all manner of religious practice. By that I mean, whatever a person does experience, it's theirs alone and needs no homage to anyone else or any set of rules or belief system (BS). Jim, I know you regard all things relating to 'spirituality' as hogwallup since it's never proven. However, I'll continue to redefine it for myself. For now, my spirituality is a no-answer reality check of sorts - getting on with what's still good in my life & being thankful I can take from the cult what I will, move on and get stronger. I'm far from finished and will likely continue redefinining and reclaiming my spirituality until 'my spirit gives up on my body' ;) or 'I kick the bucket' or 'I pass on' or 'the grim reaper drops by for a cuppa' or 'I get hit by a bus' or 'my bagpipes finally do me in' or 'death comes knocking at my door' -......- you can fill in the blanks with as many cliche phrases you like for the word 'die'. You'll probably keep writing back until I also think of all spirituality as hogwash. But I'll tell you now not to waste your time because I'm keeping the redefining process my own. But thanks for prompting me to at least try to say what I mean more clearly! The term was indeed used loosely, but I hope the context is clear.... Cheers to ya, Jim (& by that I mean 'congenial goodwill' :) Crispy, clan motto: 'My mind remains unmoved!' - Aye! After 27 years in a cult it's still there B)

Subject: a little secret for Crispy From: a long time lurker To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:49:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't waste your precious time :) He's nuts.

Subject: great observation Crispy! lol! (nt) From: cq To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:17:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great observation Crispy! lol! (nt)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: gerry To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 17:55:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm torsin' out the whole bath water these days. I think the concept of 'spirituality' is bogus ALSO, and based on personal interpretation and a dirth of any real information, or, hate to say it, scientific understanding. Liked your first line, though :)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: Dep To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:06:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm torsin' out the whole bath water these days. I think the whole concept of 'spirituality' is bogus, as is religion, and based on personal interpretation and a dirth of any real information, or, hate to say it, scientific understanding. Liked your first line, though :) --- Gerry, did you hear what you just said, 'The whole concept of spirituality' is bogus.' Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. Spirituality is 'nothing' special. Dep =)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: ex WPC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:59:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Get real dep who ever you are there are more concepts about spirituality than any other subject. Once you voice any so called spiritual trip through the medium of spoken language you conceptualise what you wish to convey. Anyway my god is bigger than your god and has a longer pedigree and is better looking so there. Just off inside to have a nice long luxurious think about life, not its' meaning its' intricacies. Have fun but don't do anything I wouldn't aprove of

Subject: You say the stupidest things -- always! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:35:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you?

Subject: Re: You say the stupidest things -- always! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 22:52:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you.

Subject: I've asked you this before, Dep From: JHB To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 14:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The experience is one thing, the interpretation is another. Can you honestly say you are not putting a conceptual interpretation on your experience? For me, the experience is a result of brain chemistry where the part of the brain that deals in size and/or time has no input and shuts down. So you experience infinity and timelessness, for example. Unless you can produce some evidence that something else is happening, apart from you personally feeling that it is, then Iïl stich with brain chemistry. And without the interpretation that the experience is one of spirituality, it is just another high. Last time I said something like this, you ignored me, so I'd appreciate a response this time:-) John.

Subject: Re: I've asked you this before, Dep From: Dep =) To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I agree totally. The experience is one thing, the interpretation is another. In order to communicate about the experience I have to put a conceptual interpretation on it. I wouldn't be able to talk about it otherwise. If you see the experience is a result of brain chemistry fine. Sounds more likley than leprechauns. So stick with brain chemistry. Perhaps it is just another high. But it is a valuable one. When I meditate I feel safer, better, smarter, and like I am really me. I don't care so much about the mechanics of the experience. I like electricty too but I have no desire to know how it works. Flipping the switch and getting the light is good enough for me.

Subject: So the obvious question is... From: JHB To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:49:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? You accept that you have no evidence of anything other than a great feeling that helps you feel 'safer, better, smarter, and like you are really you', and yet you then make this leap to a spititual realm. I contend that that leap is the result of the concepts you have acquired growing up in a world where people frequently refer to spirituality, god, religion, soul, etc. Had you not been exposed to such concepts, you could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. John.

Subject: Re: So the obvious question is... From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 07:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? You accept that you have no evidence of anything other than a great feeling that helps you feel 'safer, better, smarter, and like you are really you', and yet you then make this leap to a spititual realm. I contend that that leap is the result of the concepts you have acquired growing up in a world where people frequently refer to spirituality, god, religion, soul, etc. Had you not been exposed to such concepts, you could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. John. --- ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? Mind! All concepts are stored in and come from the mind. The concept of spirituality comes from our mind just like all the others. A concept of spirituality is still a concept. When we experience something it immediately get recorded in our brain. The sights, sounds, feelings, etc. These recordings collectively make up our mind. Wilder Penfield did some experiments on this during open brain surgery. By touching the exposed brain with an electrode patients had vivid recollections of experiences of childhood. It was as is they were suddenly 'there.' We are always recording even when we sleep. These recordings get re-interpreted by the other recordings to make sense of them. A Kahlahari Bushman would probably not understand football game as you would but would probably make up some kind of off the wall explanation. Agreed! Had I not been exposed to spiritual concepts, I could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. You can enjoy a meal without seeing a menu. There is a difference between a recording of an experience and the experience. Most people live in their recordings and don't see things freshly.

Subject: So it's just a nice feeling then? From: JHB To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:26:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad we got that sorted out. Now what is you're arguing with Jim about? John.

Subject: I'll respond.... WELL SAID From: New-Age Redneck To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB: this said it ALL: '...Unless you can produce some evidence that something else is happening, apart from you personally feeling that it is, then Iïl stich with brain chemistry....' Well said, and right to the crux of this 'spiritual thing.' No one has ever produced your requested 'evidence' and they never will..... I DO love brain chemistry, especially now that I know that's what 'it' is...... :)

Subject: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 23:45:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you. --- First, you're concept-free. Then you're all tucked in in a new-age cradle imagining E.T. or Yoda or someone reading you all these spiritual fairy tales. What was I doing in the ashram? I was in a cult, stupid! I was chasing my tail. I was praying to an imaginary god and imagining his imaginary presence in my life, courtesy of the grace of the Lord of the Universe. You know what? You're just plain dumb. There is such a major disconnect happening with you, I can't believe it.

Subject: Re: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 00:21:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you. --- First, you're concept-free. Then you're all tucked in in a new-age cradle imagining E.T. or Yoda or someone reading you all these spiritual fairy tales. What was I doing in the ashram? I was in a cult, stupid! I was chasing my tail. I was praying to an imaginary god and imagining his imaginary presence in my life, courtesy of the grace of the Lord of the Universe. You know what? You're just plain dumb. There is such a major disconnect happening with you, I can't believe it. --- I am free of concepts sometimes when I meditate. Most of the time I'm in the mind spin, but I do get a break now and then, which is more than most people I suspect. A person is sleepwalking when he is lost in his story. That is tail chasing. Around and around you go, stimulus-response, stimulus-response. Effect, effect effect, the wheel of samsara. Oh I forgot, you don't like new age concepts from 2,600 years ago. You are not your story Jim. That's not who you are. That's not life! If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket for 8 years, no wonder you are so pissed off. These concepts aren't the truth either. I don't claim that they are. Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger. Thoughts are like photographs, they are not really the thing. The intellect filters our experience and sometimes it fucks us up. Can't you see that? Spirit brings happiness and clarity. In the Spirit we transcend our conditioning and glimpse the very essence of our being. At least that's been my experience.

Subject: Uh Oh! Not the 'WHEEL OF SAMSARA'!!!!!!! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:18:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A person is sleepwalking when he is lost in his story. That is tail chasing. Around and around you go, stimulus-response, stimulus-response. Effect, effect effect, the wheel of samsara. Oh I forgot, you don't like new age concepts from 2,600 years ago. Wow, Dog, I had no idea that your belief system was that old! I now have much deeper respect for you. Hey, fella, that's one very old religion you got. Tell me, do you have any ancient texts or anything I can look at? Coool!

Subject: Re: Uh Oh! Not the 'WHEEL OF SAMSARA'!!!!!!! From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 15:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A person is sleepwalking when he is lost in his story. That is tail chasing. Around and around you go, stimulus-response, stimulus-response. Effect, effect effect, the wheel of samsara. Oh I forgot, you don't like new age concepts from 2,600 years ago. Wow, Dog, I had no idea that your belief system was that old! I now have much deeper respect for you. Hey, fella, that's one very old religion you got. Tell me, do you have any ancient texts or anything I can look at? Coool! --- Couldn't help laughing when I read the subject line. The 'Wheel of Samasara' is a metaphor for compulsive behaviour. Most of the world is stimulus-response and compulsive behaviour can range anywhere from being a shopaholic to a serial rapist. Most of the shit we experience on this planet comes from demon circiuts in the human brain. These are thought patterns that the individual can't short circuit or transcend. People with compulsive behaviours are run by their mental machinery like robots. Meditation, therapy, diet, exercise, love etc. can help people get over these thought patterns so they can be self determined rather than being run by their past memories. BTW I do vipassana meditation these days and haven't practiced K in months. =)

Subject: Re: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:00:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, BELIEF in an imaginary 'Spirit' brings ignorance and obsfucation. If we quit our BELIEF 'In the Spirit' we transcend our ignorance and see the world for what it is. We 'glimpse the very essence of our being,' which is a physical, relatively fragile, one-time and precious thing. Don't you realize that all of this stupid 'spirit' belief, the belief that there is something 'better' and 'more' is the very thing that 'causes' a disrespect for life? Why care about 'this life' when there is so much more.... AFTER.... LATER.... PIE-IN-THE-SKY.... NO, this IS it! It's all you've got and it is all you will ever have. So wake up and appreciate it and appreciate those around you. Stop 'believing' and imagining and start actually living. Tick, tick, tick.... do you hear that? It's all the time you've spent imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world. WAKE UP!

Subject: Re: NO YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Dep =) To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:56:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, BELIEF in an imaginary 'Spirit' brings ignorance and obsfucation. If we quit our BELIEF 'In the Spirit' we transcend our ignorance and see the world for what it is. We 'glimpse the very essence of our being,' which is a physical, relatively fragile, one-time and precious thing. Don't you realize that all of this stupid 'spirit' belief, the belief that there is something 'better' and 'more' is the very thing that 'causes' a disrespect for life? Why care about 'this life' when there is so much more.... AFTER.... LATER.... PIE-IN-THE-SKY.... NO, this IS it! It's all you've got and it is all you will ever have. So wake up and appreciate it and appreciate those around you. Stop 'believing' and imagining and start actually living. Tick, tick, tick.... do you hear that? It's all the time you've spent imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world. WAKE UP! --- New-Age, I am not asking you to believe in Spirit any more than I am asking you to believe in gravity. Both exist independent of your belief. What happens if you don't believe in gravity and jump off a roof? Beliefs take place in the domain of mind, beleifs are concepts. I am asking you to experience Spirit, to transcend your mind, if only for a minute. It's refreshing! Spirit is not a belief, Spirit is an experience. When we meditate we get clear and we really see the the world as it is. We transcend our robot conditioning. It's like hitting the 'clear' button on a calculator. If we use a calculator and get an answer to our problem, we hit the clear button before going on to a new calculation, don't we? If we don't, we are going to get some wierd and very innacurate answers. I happen to 'believe' that the very essence of our being is not physical. Ever see a photograph of yourself when you were a kid. Ever compare it a photograph of yourself now. Ever notice that you look different? I firmly 'believe' that only when we are centred in Spirit, connected, uncluttered, can we truly respect life. I don't believe in PIE-IN-THE-SKY. As Muhammed Ali once said, 'I'm not interested in pie, high in the sky, by and by. I want something sound while I'm around on the ground.' Spirit is real. I'm a practical kinda guy. I don't even know if there is a life after this one. Spirit helps me to enjoy this one. If I have been 'imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world,' then I've probably been daydreaming and not in the Spirit. Imagination is okay IMO, but it's not life. 'What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?' Soul is that connection to what is real and unchanging, the Rock of Ages, the Tao, the ground of being. Build your house on that New-Age. You ask me to WAKE UP! From what? The mind spin? My soap opera? Cultural hypnosis? The subliminals pounded into my head by advertisers? Meditation or the Spirit does wake me up, thank you very much. I don't know how much meditation you have done or if you even have Knowledge but Spirit is not a belief it is an experience, an EXPERIENCE of clarity. I can't speak for anyone else but Spirit brings me aliveness, happiness, clarity, love and self-expression. I can't force you to have the EXPERIENCE of aliveness, happiness, clarity, love and self-expression Spirit brings. I can't meditate for you. All I want you to know is that concept and experience are DIFFERENT!!!!

Subject: Re: NO YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Stonor To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 23:15:57 (EST) Email Address: stonor21@hotmail.com Message: Hi Deputy Dog, You're sounding quite well. I would appreciate it if you'd email me. I have some questions about Vipassana meditation. I've looked into it because, oddly enough, there's a centre east of Montreal, on the mountain road that goes to my father's home in the country. Anna

Subject: Show me, then! From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 18:54:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep: '....I am not asking you to believe in Spirit any more than I am asking you to believe in gravity. Both exist independent of your belief....' PROVE IT! Gravity, as such, is demonstrable and repeatable. You don't have to, nor did you ever have to, believe in it to experience it. Spirit, however, is a different story. If it exists, then I shouldn't have to even acknowledge its existence, if we are going to do an apples-to-apples comparison. BUT NO...... we have to 'believe' in it and thus prime our mind with fantasy, prior to being able to experience it. What's more.... we can't share the experience with anyone.... WHY? Maybe because it's a fantasy? Maybe? Gravity, on the other hand, can be shared.... even between two humans... it exists, it's results are measurable. Give me metrics concerning spirit. Where are they?

Subject: Re: Show me, then! From: Dep =) To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 12:33:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They have done all kinds of scientific tests on yogis and meditators measuring brain waves, galvanic skin response, heartbeats, blood lacate levels etc. When we meditate measurable physiological changes take place. How could they not?

Subject: trying original language From: janet to DEP To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:38:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, it doesn't help your clarity to use timeworn expressions that didn't originate with you. You are repelling Jim by speaking in other people's words, not your own. It makes you sound like a programmind puppet. Strive instead to describe your perspective using your own words, your own expressions, your own observations. I made a vow back in the 80's to ditch all the parroting of commonly recited phrases when trying to converse about this subject. Jargon weakens one's efforts to share themselves genuinely with another. If what you want them to understand is important enough to you, you will communicate from your self, using new words, and not pass out photocopied leaflets of the words of someone who is neither present, nor a party to the discussion. Take the time to reach into yourself, Dep. When you speak to someone, give them something real, from you alone. Describe what you have come understand using your own words and meanings. It may take practice. You may find that you slip into the urge to throw convenient quotes all too often. Be rigorous with yourself. Be authentic. Be genuine. Be original. Be new. If you find you can't, perhaps there is no original experience THERE. And THAT is a worthy question to scour yourself with.

Subject: Sometimes you're smart, Janet From: PatC To: janet to DEP Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:14:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I enjoyed your post. I hope Dep figures it out. I especially enjoyed your typo: ''a programmind puppet.'' Now, if only I can impress upon you to tame your imagination. Okay, I'm nagging. :C)

Subject: the last word? From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:26:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I'm used to one of my comments being the last on many a thread, y'dig? (;)) But what's with this VERSUS trip? Why does spirit HAVE to be 'versus' MIND???? We've got both. Both can be used. Or ignored (if you're into tail-spins). Two wings to fly, no? (and before anyone gets too smart - don't even THINK of suggesting that rockets don't need 'em. They're just called stabilisers, is all).

Subject: Re: the last word? From: Dep To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 13:07:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I'm used to one of my comments being the last on many a thread, y'dig? (;)) But what's with this VERSUS trip? Why does spirit HAVE to be 'versus' MIND???? We've got both. Both can be used. Or ignored (if you're into tail-spins). Two wings to fly, no? (and before anyone gets too smart - don't even THINK of suggesting that rockets don't need 'em. They're just called stabilisers, is all). --- Versus no - oscillation yes.

Subject: You don't oscillate From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look up 'oscillator' and you will readily see that you can't oscillate. The word you are looking for is VACILLATE. :)

Subject: Re: You don'y oscillate From: Dep =) To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:28:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: New-Age, My dictionary defines oscillate as: to swing or move to and fro as a pendulum does; to vary or vascillate between differing beliefs, conditions, or states. Want to call this one a draw? =)

Subject: Re: You don't oscillate From: Dep= To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:24:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:37:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're correct about spirituality being 'nothing special.' It isn't. It's just another meme, if you prefer. If spiritual isn't a concept, (and I believe it is) than just what the heck is it?

Subject: What IS spiritual, you ask? From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:43:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: spiritual is being true to your whole self. Which is why religions will always fail.

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual, you ask? From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 21:00:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its interesting, I always assumed every one was having the 'same experience'...it's only later when u talk openly that u find a whole variety of experiences going on; from 'bliss' to 'freaked-out', and possibly alot of freak outs were from people convinced they were 'in their heads' and therefore excluded from the divine goodies that everyone else (except them) were graced with...I'm no intellectual or expert on any of this, but I do observe how religious (and I guess other 'like-minded' groups) attempt to define or organise the 'collective-experience'; i.e. if you're having 'that experience' you're in, otherwise you're out...we are all utterly unique, do ANY two people have the same experience from appreciating a piece of art or music or whatever? I believe I was harmed greatly be being forced to accept there was an ultimate common experience of 'truth-conciousness-bliss' that I SHOULD be embracing, and that was the same for all, and all else was meaningless; therein lies the undermining of self worth 'all these guys are getting so blissed out,whats wrong with me???'what two people ever had the same experience I wonder? I can remember coming out of programs (interesting choice of word)years ago feeling very exalted, feeling an overbrimming real love, and everyone else seemed to be feeling it too,I guess you could call that spiritual, I would say at the time it was pretty well priceless; but dogma, group mind sets and rigid zeolotry (is that a word??) is turbid , the difference between a poet and a word processor. perhaps its healthier to look at the spirit and intellect as two tools in the box, both requiring skillfull and patient handling, rather than the spirit and intellect being two opposing armies, otherwise a self divided will be the result.

Subject: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: John Macgregr To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:29:31 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Might jump in on this thread, because the one I wrote about ‘What is the Knowledge?’ and the ‘God of evolution’ is now way down. BTW, there are replies to Lesley, Jim, et al down there. And the below kind of fits in with this thread anyway. Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. But our problem is that since the Middle Ages we have crossed the Rubicon into a rational worldview, and we can’t ever cross back again. To do so exposes one to “archaism” (childishly returning to old values), which is IMO even more damaging to the psyche than, say, atheism. Knowledge was kind of cutting edge in its day, at least in some ways: it took us rapidly and at times joyously out of old ways of thinking. (Yes, I know about all the downsides too: no need to remind me.) But thesedays those downsides are all that’s left: the Maharaji paradigm has become ossified. Those clinging to it look increasingly like conservatives, archaists, backwards-lookers, clingers-to-the-past. Anyway, in acknowleding AV’s excellent observation of the double entendre “program” - i.e. they were what we attended and what happened to us - I’ll try and jump on the “what is spiritual” thread again... The experiences we got from, for example, “Knowledge”, are precisely the effects we would expect from calming the central nervous system. In other words, no explanation involving “spirit” - let alone a master or his grace - is required. The phemonena are perfectly explained by known mechanisms. Worse still, we are starting to comprehend where these experiences - including their self-deceptive aspects - might have come from in an evolutionary sense. Well, I’m developing some theories of my own in this area, but I wouldn’t be surprised if others with more knowledge have reached the same conclusions. The more I think about it, the more I think the circumstantial evidence stacks up for God having entered the human genetic code. Firstly, like the genetically installed urges toward hunger, sex and violence, he is ubiquitous and ineradicable. Secondly, he appears from archaeological evidence to have been around for hundreds of thousands of years - perhaps enough time to have entered the genome. Thirdly (and this is my theory), once our brains grew larger than those of any other animal in history, he provided us human animals with meaning: that is, he answered the questions which our unique cortex had started to pose to us. Other animals had no need of such answers - in other words no need to conjure such a being as God with other, pre-logical parts of their brains - because their brains were too small to construct questions for them about morality, suffering and death. But we we were developing rationality, and so our brains were asking such questions. Because survival is uppermost for every species, we had to have those questions answered as a matter of urgency. Whether the answers were “right” or “wrong” was of no interest to evolution (a “watchmaker” who is blind not only to the future but to morality). They merely had to be convincing. So evolution gave us the various types of religious experience - what could be more “real” than euphoria, peace and numinosity? These exquisite feelings must have seemed a lot more concrete to our ancestors than logical considerations about whether the “great spirit” behind these feelings existed or not. They certainly seemed a lot more concrete than logic to me, in 1972, and I’d had a liberal education. Finally, as I pointed out in my last post taking issue with Lesley’s idea that God serves us merely as a “father”, he is complex. He invokes in us not just filial loyalties, but also feelings of euphoria, acceptance, calm, numinosity, timelessness, expanded boundaries, sharpened consciousness, ineffability, deep “knowing”, love, self-love - and so on. This complexity is a hallmark of an evolutionary product. To quote two subjects dear to Lesley’s heart - Richard Dawkins and orchids, or more accurately one talking about the other: “Mark Ridley quotes Darwin on orchids, in a letter to Asa Gray: ’It is impossible to imagine so many co-adaptations being formed all by a chance blow’. As Ridley (1982) goes on, ‘The evolution of complex organs had to be gradual because all the correct changes would not occur in a single large mutation.’” To me this suggests that God did not arise suddenly (say in the agricultural era), but was assembled gradually and unconsciously and through the process of natural selection, as a response to the otherwise unanswerable problems posed by a large brain capable of understanding that it will one day suffer and die. Given that the necessary human encephalisation (brain-growth) appears to have been taking place for two million years, this process probably began an awfully long time ago, and (under my unproven scenario) has likely now entered the genetic code. Thus we have ended up with one part of us (probably the frontal cortex) which tells us God is a fairy tale, and various other parts lovingly installed over eons by evolution, which tell us in so many very compelling ways that God is real. Forum 7 appears to be a cortex-driven enterprise locked in fatal embrace with premie-world, which is fuelled by the various pre-logical parts of the brain. The above, if all true, does add strength to my belief that Maharaji is sincere in his beliefs about who he is. At least so far as all these pre-logical parts of his brain are concerned, anyway: what his cortex is telling him is a different matter. It would be reasonable to assume that someone in his position might - for example - drink heavily, to keep those whispers from the cortex inaudible. Or - when the whispers come in from outside sources - to have developed a “furious anger” defence. When a Brisbane newspaper article in 1997 suggested he was rich at the expense of his devotees, for example, he furously blamed the PR team for the article appearing. They should have somehow “stopped it”. I’d observe by way of a postscript that Maharaji’s rational side - consistency, logic, objectivity, judgement, accountablity - is rather weak. This may explain a lot about the last 30 years, when you think about it. John

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: bill To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 22:01:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, As you have read in Dawkins writings, DNA has some rules it follows without diviation. Although the evidence has crucial gaps, I see the DNA rules operating and I personally am willing to grant ALL lifeform development to DNA operations. Animal instinct fits right into the DNA rules. Where I see the DNA rules flipped on thier head is in human nature. There is no possible way to explain human nature using evolutionary psycology, and no possible way to explain the limitations we humans face in life by using any DNA rule logic. I cant wait for Dawkins to see this, I dont have 700 years to live. Besides, he is paid by his college courtesy of a grant from a Microsoft exec, to champion the idea that enough evidence is in to proclaim that it is a done deal that conciousness sprang from matter, and all other ideas that there is somegodthingee are just ignorance and DONT YOU SEE !!! The DONT YOU SEE part of his writing annoys me. He pushes me to GET IT that there is nothing DNA cant do. Well, no self respecting strand of DNA would EVER step out of line and run amok and tweek instinct and come up with human nature. Just cause folks have hairbrained ideas, and wala, a religion is born, and just TRY to get rid of it, and aint it ridiculous, and surely such idiocy couldnt have some shred of accuracy..... human nature, and our limitations, stand there going, ahem, when you are looking for the non DNA part of creation, look at human nature and the limitations all men are under, there is a story there.

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: bill To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 26, 2002 at 23:00:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Look at what a tight ship DNA runs here in the lifeform structure. A billion years of, well, we have no RNA evidence, but let us just assume the RNA would not throw the analysis. DNA is super strict. It has firm rules and it has no room for deviation of the rules. Now THERE is an area of no evidence ! NO evidence whatsoever that DNA has EVER slipped up and well, forgot about its rules. So, in order to enjoy constructing out of thin air a reason why DNA slipped up and lost control of it's own creation, I will have to just frankly ignore the very serious issue I am raising by claiming DNA gapped out and lost control of creation itself and we are milling about crazily on earth because DNA slipped up, lost control of the one creature that has not only opposable thumbs, but isnt stuck in water, or stuck with some limited sound making device like say a cow, or stuck with some limited capacity to eat various foods, ect, what a hell of a creature to lose control over! And to have no way to get back in control ! NOW THERE is a fuck up royal ! Not only does this creature run amok, disobeying all the DNA rules, it has dangerously flipped rule number one on its head and endangered the whole damn world of lifeforms DNA has spent a billion years building. Now there is a story for you. And this runamok lifeform has it down to pushing a button and the world is destroyed. Now THAT is extremely threatening to DNA everywhere. And with a track record of one billion years without a fuckup, for DNA to slip up that bad for no reason at all................NO reason at all. none. No need to lose the instinct control mechanism, none. I have too much faith in the impeccability of DNA to ever accuse it of such a planetary size screwup. Dawkins should have more respect in DNA, really, all the work done so well for SOO long. And to blame it for human nature. REALLY. That should be how Dawkins talks about our situation ! Instead of him trying to impress me with his 'I know something you dont know' attitude, and jeeze dummy, are you with ME or those idiots that JUST DONT GET IT ! CANT YOU SEE ! He really bothered me with that stuff. He hides it, or tries to, using enthusiasm as a cover. But a thin cover it is. Anyway, it IS a wonderful subject.

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: Dep =) To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:41:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John you said, Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. But our problem is that since the Middle Ages we have crossed the Rubicon into a rational worldview, and we can’t ever cross back again. To do so exposes one to “archaism” (childishly returning to old values), which is IMO even more damaging to the psyche than, say, atheism. Didn't the Greeks and Romans have a rational world view? Wasn't Christianity a reaction to the sterility and stultification of the rational mind? Read Saint Augustine.

Subject: Our Father who art in Heaven From: Lesley To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. M'Lud, I rest my case. Seriously, John, I am not really ready to argue the case, the idea, as I presented it in response to your previous thread was fresh off the press for me, and I have not really come to grips with it yet. One thing I will say, though, is don't be too quick to dismiss it. You argue that there are all these amazing qualities that go along with the 'god experience', that are not associated with the qualities of the parental bond. I'm not so sure. Firstly, I am suggesting the parents, not just the father. Next time you see a baby being breastfed, try telling yourself that that baby is not having a blissful numinous experience that strikes to the core of it's being. I passionately agree with Jim that entertaining the construct of a 'spiritual existence' steals all the best stuff out of life, out of your day to day relationships. It is my biggest beef with god. You love god at the expense of everyone else in your life, those very special qualities we have, that really we need in our interactions with eachother to help get through life, become reserved for our interactions with 'god'. Bah, humbug! I read somewhere that the development of the cortex meant that human beings were able to ask the question 'what if'. And this has given us a huge survival advantage, (not to mention the ability to procreate to plague proportions, as we answered the question what if there is a bad season.) As you ask the question what if I get hurt, it seems, overall, that the qualities of commonsense and courage are required. Along with the ability to pose the question, as you stand poised at the edge of the cliff, what if I am wrong, and strapping feathers to my arms will not make me capable of flight, leading to a more careful selection of place to make the jump. Along with such foresight, inevitably we have faced the understanding that pain, loss and death are in our future, a fearful prescience indeed, and obviously we have been thinking about it a lot, testing just how inevitable it really is, what we can do to ameliorate our circumstances, and just generally trying to wrap our laughing gear around such a weighty and sad dint to our natural ebullience and zest for living. But does this add up to gaining a hard wired need for god, what do you mean by god getting into the human genome, John? I accept that having an ability to absorb and live by the beliefs that prevail in the society you are born into will increase your chances of survival, and hence procreation, but I really wasn't born with a God, just a couple of parents, a couple of brothers, a dog and a cat who sometimes had kittens. Spose he could have been lurking in an untold gene, just waiting his moment to unfold, but what a horrid thought, John, eeek, go wash your mouth out with soap, go play with a sabre toothed tiger........or tell me more, lol!

Subject: Bless you, Lesley From: John Macgregor To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:33:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley said: 'You argue that there are all these amazing qualities that go along with the 'god experience', that are not associated with the qualities of the parental bond. I'm not so sure. Firstly, I am suggesting the parents, not just the father. Next time you see a baby being breastfed, try telling yourself that that baby is not having a blissful numinous experience that strikes to the core of it's being. ' You're right of course - and it may well be true of 'timelessness', 'boundlessnes' and the rest of the ‘spiritual complex’. Okay, so assuming for a moment that these are not different qualities: I think the fact that these qualities are so revivable in adulthood - and so endlessly revived in adulthood, by perhaps most of the world's population - suggests they serve some evolutionary function for adults. I mean, all of today's hunter-gatherer tribes, so far as I know, have religious beliefs and experiences. (Just about the same thing IMO.) 'I passionately agree with Jim that entertaining the construct of a 'spiritual existence' steals all the best stuff out of life, out of your day to day relationships. It is my biggest beef with god. You love god at the expense of everyone else in your life, those very special qualities we have, that really we need in our interactions with each other to help get through life, become reserved for our interactions with 'god'. Bah, humbug!' Yes, that's my feeling too. It's analogous to the 'heart-mind split' you often complain of M engendering. It may even be the most ghastly of all the things that the cult did to us - which is saying something. Certainly I feel that for me. The joy of rejoining the world has been the best thing of all for me these last 18 months. Not just no longer feeling like a freak, but entering into relationships with things knowing they are real, not 'maya' - and not wondering when they are going to disappoint me. What a crock we were sold - and it was ideal for reinforcing the power of the one who could save us from the illusion - an illusion which turned out to be an illusion, if you get my drift. Anyway, I was abstracting 'spirit' off from 'the world' purely to try and draw attention to the specific neuro experiences I spoke of - experiences which have usually been thought of as 'spiritual'. But seing as you mention it, I’d guess that in evolutionary situations these qualities may have been much better integrated with 'worldly' ones (no split) - just as I suspect that in our brains they are far better integrated with banal, everyday consciousness than we who have been brainwashed by the idiocies of Indian mysticism - higher self, lower self, and all that claptrap - would have realised till recently. The whole Indian ethos which generated Maharaji is a horror, if you ask me: that spirit/world split is highly damaging to all but the priestly and guru castes. 'But does this add up to gaining a hard wired need for god, what do you mean by god getting into the human genome, John? 'I accept that having an ability to absorb and live by the beliefs that prevail in the society you are born into will increase your chances of survival, and hence procreation, but I really wasn't born with a God, just a couple of parents, a couple of brothers, a dog and a cat who sometimes had kittens. ' Well, yes, except that our generation was an historical first (tho as DD mentioned somewhere, you could partly except the ancient Greeks in their brief rationalist period). What I’m saying is that most people most of the time have had gods, and this appears to go back 3-400,000 years. That is possibly enough for a predisposition for religious experience to enter the genetic code. Certainly today, despite the advances of science, the spread of education, the popularity of Richard Dawkins, and all the rest, the vast majority of people even in liberal democracies like the US and Australia believe in the spirit in the sky. (90%+ isn't it?) We, too - as you suggest - jumped feet-first into being god-lovers approximately 37 minutes after we'd broken free from our parents. And look at how God bounced back in Russia five minutes after godless communism fell. So my belief is not so much that we adopt the beliefs of our parents (theist or atheist) - tho obviously this plays a role. I’d go further and suggest we may have a specific predisposition to God - not just the father aspect, but the whole complex most likely. I think there's some evolutionary evidence for this (the meaning derived from religion seems to be adaptive; religious worship seems to go back 3-400,000 years), and also some proximate evidence (most of the world's popuation, educated or otherwise, stubbornly, intractably believe in God). Best, John

Subject: Straw man? From: Jim To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:50:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. Interesting post, John. One thing, though. I don't buy this dichotomy of some hyper-rational, scientifically materialistic existence set off against something called 'spirit'. I think that's bogus. It conjurs some flat, cartoon image of a square, poindexterish distopia where no one can dance and the root beer's always flat. Then it sets this off against some vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses. The contrast is useful for shampoo ads -- shoot the first part in black and white -- but doesn't really reflect the real world. Instead, it's a sop to this vague notion of 'spirit' which really doesn't mean anything on its own and has to rob the real world of all sorts of wonderful, human qualities to even pretend it does. Really, what is 'spirit' and how in the world could either science or rationality ruin it?

Subject: Re: Straw man? OH MY GOD!!!! From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 08:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. Interesting post, John. One thing, though. I don't buy this dichotomy of some hyper-rational, scientifically materialistic existence set off against something called 'spirit'. I think that's bogus. It conjurs some flat, cartoon image of a square, poindexterish distopia where no one can dance and the root beer's always flat. Then it sets this off against some vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses. The contrast is useful for shampoo ads -- shoot the first part in black and white -- but doesn't really reflect the real world. Instead, it's a sop to this vague notion of 'spirit' which really doesn't mean anything on its own and has to rob the real world of all sorts of wonderful, human qualities to even pretend it does. Really, what is 'spirit' and how in the world could either science or rationality ruin it? --- I'm amazed, stupefied, dumbfounded, astounded, flabbergasted, shocked, staggered. Here is a man who spent 8 years in an ashram meditating two hours a day and he thinks that spirituality has something to do with nice pictures . . . pictures of waterfalls, love birds, and butterflys, no less. . . with presumably some sort of droning synthesizer music in the background. Amazing! He associates spirituality with mental movies from a shampoo commercial! Well at least we know what Jim was doing under his meditation blanket all those years. He was picturing beautiful scenes and humming a pleasant tune. I give up! =)

Subject: Yes, Dog, Knowledge is real -- of course From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said above, you are completely lost when it comes to understanding anything about how the mind can be fooled into thinking that these little sensory deprivation tricks constitute any sort of deep, profound experience of 'spiritual truth'. Your sarcasm just reveals how oblivious you are to the issue, even. You are quite something, Dog. You never understood at all what being a premie was and, now that you say you aren't one, you can't get the stuff off you.

Subject: Re: what is spirit? From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:18:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is perhaps more cogent to talk about what spirit 'does' than what spirit 'is'..you know the thing about scientists analysing light; is it a wave or a particle?; well.... set up the test for a wave and , yep,light is a wave; set up the test for a particle and lo and behold it's that too! so light is both a particle and a wave ,and neither (d'oh!): could we just say 'light illuminates', because that what it does for us, and leave it at that; the words 'inspire, aspire' etc share the same root as spirit, and that gives us a clue as to the role of 'spirit ' in human experience, historically. When a set of principles is attatched to the 'attunement' to spirit, there is the inevitable danger that these principles created in time and space will be difficult to cleave from the psyche as time moves us on, possibly causing anxiety and distress ; does any body rub wooden sticks together when they can throw a light switch? But in both parallels, there is a moment when there is no light (or fire), and then there is light;there is no spirit, then there is spirit, the body is inert, then life enters the body; and attempting to unravel that mystery can lead to incredible visionary breakthru's, realisations, but it can also drive you nuts.

Subject: The problem with this is that... From: JHB To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 19:50:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...by using the word 'spiritual' the way it is normally used is to take away those inspirational qualities of life from the real world of human feelings and thoughts, and ascribe them to an apparently imaginary separate world of 'spirit'. Let's keep the good things of life right here where they belong until someone comes up with some evidence that there really is something else. John.

Subject: Ask Pat D...he likes a tipple or two:) [nt] From: Dermot To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:30:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Rubbing sticks together? From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:30:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did someone mention rubbing wooden sticks together to make light? Interesting thread but I couldn't resist sharing this cartoon again. Why Stick People Are Extinct. www.teamhouse.tni.net/stickpeople1.html

Subject: Man of Heaven, man of dust From: John Macgregor To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:41:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I presume you know I was using 'spirit' as shorthand for 'the neurological effects which pre-scientific humans took to be spirit'. I don't have evidence that there's an actual etherial entity called spirit. I accept that the real, rational and scientific world is a joy to behold, and it's more or less enough for me most of the time. However by my theory we may also be primed by evolution for that irrational set of experiences known as 'spirit' (or 'Knowledge' by premies) - experiences which tell us, untruthfully indeed, that there is more to the world than we see and perceive with our cortex. That our consciousness stretches beyond the Earth, our life does not end with death, we are linked by a universal force - and all manner of literally fabulous illusions. I accept that the dichotomy I have set up is unreal, inasmuch as rational and irrational effects are very intertwined, both in our brains and our lives. As I think you're pointing out, 'spirit' is not the opposite of 'the world' - except when you abstract both qualities out artifically. And world without spirit is hardly hellish - indeed the colours are brighter and the birds sound chirpier to me post-cult than in-cult. But that may be because the cult was made so dysfunctional because of Maharaji's abuses, callousness and blindness. The actual set of neurological experiences that propelled us into the place many years ago may have been quite ancient ones, and quite natural to our species. Indeed when you think about it, why else would meditation, chanting, worship, ritual, et al produce peace or bliss, other than if such experiences had been installed by evolution? I know there are other potential answers, but surely the answer that such 'spiritual' experiences are inherently human is the most logical candidate? If something - like hunger, sex drive or bliss-potential - simply exists, and is ubiquitous among humans, I always start thinking along Darwinian lines. I'm sure that some proportion of these experiences - maybe a large proportion - can be accessed through riding Triumph motorcycles or playing guitar. But I do nevertheless conjecture that most of them arose because of the existential crisis an expanding cortex thrust upon us. Best, John PS' What's a 'poindexterish distopia', exactly? I liked the 'vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses'. I think you should mail the concept to Visions.

Subject: Re: Man of Heaven, man of dust From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:30:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I read stuff like this I realize that no one can say that their time in the cult was completely wasted. It was an interesting cult once upon a time and attracted the most interesting people. Those people can now analyze and record their cult experiences and share their knowledge (the real thing) with the rest of the human race. I think we're still doing what we thought Rawat and all of us were doing 30 years ago - bringing knowledge to the world - knowledge that may actaully do some real good. At the very least parts of the ex-premie archives will be required reading one day for students of eastern mysticism. The pen is mightier than the sword (it's effects are longer lasting)and the pen in this case is the deconstruction of Maharajism. The sword of course is - oh well, for instance - smearing Rawat in a tabloid. And I think you know what I mean, John.

Subject: identity crisis From: WPC Girl To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:51:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh! shit, they've rumbled me and my several identities. It's being back in the world of duality and that crazy mind, I don't know who I am any more. Just joking. Not sure how you can tell I use a Mac I don't even know what this one is. Be Happy , love from ex wpc. ps are there any others out there who followed the superior path of 24 hour service rather than contemplating their navels, oops sorry I mean light. ex WPC

Subject: Robbie Williams and the church From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:22:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well after reading how Robbie Williams became a priest in two days on the internet, I wondered how copyright laws apply to charities and priests, like using Elan Vital and Maharajji as names to flood the internet with, under different church and personal name variations. Any legal beagles who could give us the lowdown?

Subject: Rev Elan Vital From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:23:05 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Hamzen, Rawat and the Churchladies could be the band. Send me an Email about the remix idea if you have a mo. The files are packed and ready. All the best The Very Rev Dr S Strange

Subject: Father Strangely Strange ... From: cq To: Tim G Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:45:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Father Strangely Strange ... ... forgive me, for today I have not sinned. (can your wages take the downturn in demand?)

Subject: the hardest question(OT) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:19:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Xena: 'Well cq, do you want a big prick or a little one?' www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/cq_xena.jpg

Subject: Go for the jugular,cq From: Lesley To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:18:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and ask for a big one! Now, don't mess with my mind, cq, is this a real darshan opportunity, or a, um, clever photograph?

Subject: Re: Go for the jugular,cq From: cq To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 07:56:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: darshan? - oh, you mean was she the real Xena? Hmmmm, I thought so at the time, 'til we bumped into Marilyn Monroe and Groucho Marx in Finnegan's bar around the corner. Ah, Universal Studios, Florida '99 - what a holiday that was! Happy memories ....

Subject: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:30:39 (EST) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I can't believe how much the cult has changed. Geez, I don't read for a few weeks and presto--another cog in the Lard's wheel is gone! What gives? Is Rawat on his last legs? Look at what's gone: 1. No more trinket sales. 2. No community get-togethers to focus on the Lard. Now you could just subscribe to the broadcast and pretend you watched to be a member in good standing. 3. No more knowledge chairs. 4. No more Maharaji.com for people who don't have an up-to-date computer with 5.0. 5. In fact, not much of anything that would attract new blood (or keep the dinosaurs for that matter). What do you guys think? Another year at the most?

Subject: 'Cause it has sure gotten boring From: Good question To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:43:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know what you mean...same old stuff rehashed over and over again. People seem to be stuck in outdated, cyclical, static traps. Meaningless, petty power trips. Deviations in thought and attitude are mocked. Megawatts of intelligence and energy are wasted on odd, tribal rituals that only make other people feel marginalized or outcast. Extensive lingo and members-only jokes. Membership growing at the rate of about 2.8 people per month, worldwide. Lots of infighting, with people leaving in a huff. Grandstanding galore. Obsessive types, reciting old quotations and starting to feel portions of their real-world lives slip away. Expressions of feelings, perceptions and experiences inconsistent with the consensus reality of the group are barely tolerated or showered with abuse. Loss of long-time friends and loved ones, who all-of-a-sudden seem very different then they were for many years. Lots of self-congratulations on one's superior outlook & discrimination. People going downright nutty from the thinly-veiled nastiness, steel-reinforced me-tooism and claustrophobia. Highly selective memory usage with large gaps and revisions. Tell-tale symptoms all. Yep. I don't know how long this place will last.

Subject: The only people who get bored are bores but.... From: PatC To: Good question Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:19:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you post was still most enjoyable and funny. Thanks.

Subject: Ooooo, you sure put us in our place From: Joe To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:36:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can we possibly go on? I mean, with people here, acting like....people, who disagree and stuff, it can't last long. Cute. Loved this comment: Highly selective memory usage with large gaps and revisions. Why is it the Maharaji cult members say this kind of stuff, but are never, ever, able to point to anything anybody says here about Maharaji and his cult that are incorrect? Face it, whoever you are, you can't do it because there is no defense for what your cultleader has done over the years. Pity he doesn't have the integrity to defend himself, and leaves you guys to having to write sarcastic put downs because you don't have anything else to say that is actually on point. It is a pity, and it must be very frustrating for you.

Subject: is that it then? From: Bryn To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:23:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear'good question', Are you an insider? Can an insider answer my wonderings? What do 'pwks' 'do' now? Are there still versions of 'festivals' or 'programs'? Do people get a version of 'knowlege'? Is there still a 'master'? An 'experience?' is there anything? Do people do 'propagation' still? If so what sort of 'concepts' are put before ' aspirants'? What must a current premie believe in? Is the exceptional status of Mr Rawat of LA in the mix somewhere still? How? What about 'this world' and 'non-premies' how is one supposed to bring oneself into relationship with all that as a second phase PWSK. What does Mr. Rawat claim to be offering or hinting at these days? What is 'that connection' supposed to be these days? Is some amazing counter-blast being planned? Is he re-grouping for the big offensive? What is going on in premieland? It just looks like Mr.Rawat is retiring himself on full pay to me, despite his promise not to. Love Bryn

Subject: strategies for the corpulent one From: la-ex To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:03:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think m will go down easy...too much face to save, too many donations to still depend on, too many tough questions for both the reverend and the premies to ponder if he completely gives up....no,no,no....much easier just to 'downsize, reorganize and re-invent' and stay in the game, at least for now... I believe we will now see the advent of the new, improved 'Maharaji Lite' for the new millenium.... (However, the really important question for the new 'maharaji lite' program will be; Does it: 1-Taste great, or 2-Is it less filling?) Only time will tell on the answer to that one.(I'm betting on 'less filling', myself...) However, I think that his rotundity will probably take a few new tacks like this; 1-Streamline, streamline, streamline.... 2-Get fancier technology, digitally based ways to 'spread the word' about maharaji and 'his message'....maybe a few people will trickle in, hopefully to offset the hordes taking one step back or silently leaving.. 3-Destroy all remnants of the 'old days',make fun of the old days if you have to, blame any of the embarrassing stuff, and the out and out lies, on premies, holy family members, mahatmas, indian premies, and stupid premie/hippie 70's concepts.....(of course, m did nothing wrong, as usual...) 4-Label critics as 'hate club members', epo as a 'hate site'.... 5-Cover your own ass and your family. Everyone else can fend for themselves. 6-Go into 'semi-retirement', because as shri raja said, maharaji has never done anything for himself before. It's now time to do a few things for himself, isn't it? After all, world peace could have already happened if those stupid 70's hippie premies hadn't screwed it up, right? So, fatso will 'semi-retire', and will occssionally give a lecture in different communities around the globe, sort of a 'pro bono' thing he does on the side for non profit charities like elan vital... This will ensure that he doesn't get too rusty in the 'rambling boring monologue department', the Gulfstream stays well oiled and ready to go, and premies will keep up the longing, not to mention the donations.... On the practical side, don't we all need to be reminded to breathe and be greatful to be able to feel the gratitude of feeling gratitude? Surely a few hundred bucks a year and an annual pilgrimage to some city to hear 45 minutes of new age fluff is not too great a price to pay, is it? Think about it...what would happen to you if you DIDN'T breathe? Isn't this a small price to pay for these valuable 'instructions for life', and to get a 'tune up' twice yearly? OK, back to strategies...sorry... 7-Keep amaroo at all costs.... He can have one big bash each year...if he can make a thousand bucks off each premie,between admissions, tent sites, food, donations, darshan etc., he makes a million dollars for every thousand suckers, er, premies, that attend. He also makes money off of hotels, which give a special 'elan vital rate', which is actually a Markup! (too funny, isn't it?) Besides one big bash per year, he can have one or two 'special' meetings each year, for 'special people', probably to the tune of $5,000 each....let's see, that's one million bucks for every 200 special attendees, isn't it? So, amaroo is not going anywhere, especially when it costs half a million/year for overhead, right? 5,000 premies at one big festival=5 million bucks... 400 'special attendees'=2 million bucks (maybe 4 million, if twice/year) Plus, amaroo is a good place to chill out and make more new age elevator music and videos of clocks,birds and thousands of indian peoples feet as they pilgrimage to get darshan.... 8-Keep India also, even if it doesn't bring in big bucks,.... it's good for keeping up the unofficial 'lordhsip' there, with darshan, hash laced drinks and a general good time for all....keeps up maharaji's moral, lessens the need for other speaking engagements, unless needed to raise some quick cash....got to get that regular 'devotion high'.....remember, it's all for him, but it's packaged as something for you...and if you don't do it, who knows what the 'mind' might do to you?....oh no, let's play it safe and not rock the boat with those wierd ideas.... 9-The yacht? May have to go, unless First mate John Miller can bring in a few 'big donors' to keep it alive, and also to keep up 'first world prachar' in Long Island Sound, Miami Beach, and the poor Malibu diaspora who have to live in delapidated shacks along the malibu coast.... OK, John, keep those dontions coming in if you want to see rich man propagation happen and also get a seat at the table on the good ship maharaji, even if it is sinking...(Question: Would maharaji,as a good captain, 'go down with the ship', or would he get on the first life boat with Monica and head for dry land?....) 10-Go corporate, get in that CEO magazine with some sort of bizarre interview that skirts all past things and responsibilities, and keep on developing that new persona....every little bit helps with this tricky business of world peace.....

Subject: Re: strategies for the corpulent one From: Pullaver To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 22:16:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoyed your post la-ex. Here's a chicken or egg question for you. Does Captain Rawat have the most expensive corporate jet money can buy in order to fly himself to programs, or does he continue to do programs so he can continue to fly the most expensive corporate jet money can buy? Also, can you doubt for one moment that M has thought long and hard about how he can squeeze the maximum profit from his shows? Perhaps the big attraction about Amaroo for Maha and why he was always so keen on getting his own piece of land for programs was that it held the potential to be the total cash register. The tent city was only meant to be a temporary situation until he could build permanent motel-like structures and really rake in the dosh for VIP 'darshan' suites, room-service, mini-bar and the like. So instead of premies' cash going into various local economies as tourist dollars it would all flow to him. Travel agency cut, food, drink, registration, accomodation and salvation - the complete package. It now appears that the Marji Motel won't get built after-all. Or if it does it will happen in time for a pwk retirement residence - where the diehards go to be fleeced to kingdom come.

Subject: Great Post. Re CEO Magazine: From: OTS To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:43:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MY GUESS: I was thinking that the CEO Magazine article will tout his many successful 'side' businesses (book-buying AMTEXT, etc.) and what a great CEO Mr. Rawat has become, what with his 8th grade education. It will also tout his aviation skills, which are amazing, I'll give him that. It might mention his guru bidness, which is now just a new age seminar thing like the rest of the whole crappy genre. He will use the article to announce to the premies that the show is over. That he's now just another new age seminar speaker and have a nice day. It'll talk about his early retirement from the guru bidness, but his ever growing strength as an American businessman CEO extraordinare. What a guy! I could just kiss his .......

Subject: Business Skills/Piloting From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:44:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, OTS, Maharaji may be a competent pilot, but that's because you and I paid for it. Very few people can afford to have a fulltime pilot instructor on staff to train him in piloting (paid for by his devotees) for years and years doing whatever it took to get Maharaji his license. Plus, he had access to expensive aircraft (also paid for by the premies) to get flying time and practice, and he was able to take as much time as necessary to learn to fly, because he is supported in luxury (also paid for by this devotees), and didn't need to have a real job, unlike other people who become pilots. Plus, he sets his own schedule and does exactly what he wants. In that kind of situation, anybody who couldn't be a good pilot would have to be an idiot. I would be surprised if he took credit for Amtext of any of the other cult businesses, because they only happened and survived because of ashram slave labor in the beginning, and rabid devotion later on, and not because of M's management skills, which I have seen no evidence he has. Plus, there are those around who claim Amtext was STOLEN by the cult from another person. Maharaji might want to avoid somebody pointing out those kinds of details.

Subject: CEO Magazine: From: Crispy To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:24:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, #10 on La-Ex's list - Mj doing an interview for a leading business CEO magazine - this really grabbed my curiosity, too Why, after over 20 years of avoiding media interviews like the plague, would he all of a sudden chose a leading BUSINESS magazine as his target audience? Surely its readers would be more interested in ways to EARN money for their own businesses than in what guru to DONATE to? Maybe Mj is hoping he'll catch some rich recruits with more cash to donate? good luck to him.... He's up against assumingly intelligent managers who would research him first, i.e. an internet search: Maharaji Knowledge .... that's all it would take to turn their stomachs I will be VERY interested to read his article and see what response it gets....

Subject: Very witty, but this is just a forum From: JHB To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:17:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is just a place where people can talk about the Maharaji cult. The vast majority of people who have left the cult are getting on with their lives, which I applaud. I for one don't particularly care if ex-premies post here or not as long as the information to help them become ex-premies is available. John.

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Anandaji To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 03:01:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There can only be one logical outcome. Already plenty of signs: the garage sale of videos, etc., the shutting down of local video halls, the pitiful attempts at revivalist web sites. As we type, I would guess he is deciding, if he hasn't decided already, into which hole he will silently slither with his cookie jar. The biggest problem for him will be how he can do this without giving up his toys, which ultimately he will have to do. Perhaps he will settle upon some island with a little Cessna and a dingy with a sari sail. He will wile away his days masturbating in solitude to euphoric recalls of the good ole days. Alas, his loneliness will become unbearable and he will make a feeble attempt at philosophy. He will share it with other lizards on the beach. Like his own, their eyes will bulge and twitch. Pray tell: What other outcome could there be?

Subject: LOL Ananda Ji!!! From: Richard To: Anandaji Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:59:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Ulf To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:58:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, for the die hard premies , this makes completly sense . they understand all this , like a big step forward This even makes m , more powerfull. in these peoples outlook. Just talked to a premie friend , 30 years in the cult, he was very happy that elan vital was closed . most premies hate each other , now there is no reason to come togheter about anything, nobody can doubt your motivation Now ,finally,, it is only me , and m ,, nobody,,at all,, in betwin Scary , scary ,, scary .... m has finally , made the premies completly isolated just waiting the word of the master.........

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: OTS To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is serious shit for cult members, the ones who’ve been around a long long time. Since leaving the ashram and divinginto money-making careers for the past 20 years, they’ve been even more closely embraced by M and his minions. These sincere souls are confused now. What is happening? Money talks; Devotion walks (to the back of the hall) has been the Yorem cult’s message for the past few years. Yes, the cult is wobbling on its last legs in the West, it seems. This is serious for the many really really devoted ones. They are no longer being given attention based on the amount of their donations. And they're feeling it so much that they are beginning to rethink the entire fucking trip. There is no longer a disgusting “Resource Team” (Major Donor Program) with their own special events and darshan lines (Amaroo September 1999 and 2000; Arizona September 2001 -- $5,000 minimum donation for each event per person). M apparently was embarrassed by the darshan-for-sale / sort of prostitution racket carried out during the past few years. He’s had it with the special benefits for the rich. No more seats up front. No more special meetings and phone conference calls for the big givers. No more wine and cheese parties where they try and recruit new rich premies to become part of the “Team” (Resource Team). No more special silent auction gatherings by the local Teams with wine and cheese to raise yet more funds for M. For What? After 30 years more is now urgently needed? Again??????????? What is he going to do with the money? [Don't ask.] Of course, since we’re in the yearly December - March period where M goes on vacation and does no events, sees no one, talks with no one, nothing is happening. I guess everyone is just guessing what’s next. No more videos, video events -- broadcasts only. No more hotel programs, instructors, initiators, mahatmas, saints, favored ones. How will the money change hands? I think he’ll live off his already donated business interests and a few close very rich patrons. But how will they be able to keep up on the yearly rental payments and maintenance fees for the Gruman Gulfstream V airplane [the world’s number one executive jet] that M needs to carry him and his family around the world to do his work (bringing in new people). It’s his only reason for being -- to fly around world in luxury, staying at his many homes or other first class accommodations. His number of followers is dwindling. The end game is in sight. He’s fulfilled his agya, and can now retire, in his humble opinion. Good. Enjoy doing nothing for the rest of your life, like you did for the first 40 years, but this time on the interest on the donations and business donations rather than just on our direct dime. Thanks. Syanora.

Subject: I won't be afraid From: Blind Faith To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 08:34:39 (EST) Email Address: none Message: I have dream in my heart, all are go away from Maharaji and that this then is my great time for to show my deep devotion and friendship to him. I not care when all leave the ship I will stay with my captain of the heart. Then I will have chance to be close with him. No no I won't be afraid just as long as I stand by him. That is the promise I once and everyday give. love you all!

Subject: The boy stood on the burning deck From: cq To: Blind Faith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:15:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The boy stood on the burning deck Whence all but he had fled. Twit. (c) Spike Milligan. Eternal Father, strong to save, Whose arm hath bound the restless wave, Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep Its own appointed limits keep; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea! William Whiting, 1860

Subject:  I fixed the last line From:   To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:04:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There once was a guru from Hardwar Well stocked was his bar and his larder He longed to go fishin' and Monica kissin' Last call for Darshan and Prachar, har.

Subject: No, there's a beat missing  From: cq To:   Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:38:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love a good limerick. And that was almost there, but for the missing syllable at the end. Now, magnanamous muse of the inter/ether/either/or net ... feets don't fail me now. This is live. And spontaneous. The Lord of the Universe said If you don't kiss my feet you'll be dead The premies all prayed, And then they obeyed, but he was talking to Monica instead. Boom boom.

Subject: Stand by Him, but downwind From: OTS To: Blind Faith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (by Ben E. King) When the night has come And the land is dark, And the moon is the only light we'll see. No I won't be afraid, Oh I won't be afraid, Just as long as you stand, stand by me So darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Oh stand, stand by me, stand by me. If the sky that we look upon Should tumble and fall, Or the mountain should crumble to the sea. I won't cry, I won't cry, No I won't shed a tear, Just as long as you stand, stand by me. And darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Whoa stand now, stand by me, stand by me. Darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Oh stand now, stand by me, stand by me. Whenever you're in trouble just stand by me, Oh stand by me, Whoa stand now, oh stand, stand by me. PLEASE GET A LIFE and some glasses

Subject: Stand by Him post above has text From: Richard To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:20:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the lyrics OTS. It's truly great to be reminded that I have real friends, family and lover that do stand by me and I stand by them. As for Blind Faith's post, I assumed it was parody and not a real PWK. I could be wrong.

Subject: Maharaji has sucked everyone dry. From: Tonette To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:23:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, donations have been falling steadily for the past few years. In fact, the amount of time and effort and money it takes to feed these devoted and donating premies is more than what I receive. Therefore, I have fulfilled my end of the bargain (and am filthy rich to boot) so I don't need to do anymore of this shit. I'm walking away, closing the non-money making agendas. Sure I'll need to have a program or two for an influx of cash but for the most part I'm walking away. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, in other words, the few programs I'll have will be worth millions to me. I'll see to that. Unless of course something nasty happens with the Jagedo affair. Look at what is happening with the Catholic church. Even more reason for me to disappear into the woodwork. Have a nice day, SUCKERS!

Subject: Sounds right to me From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He definitely seems headed to retirement of some sort, although I think he will try to move heaven and earth to keep the Gulfstream, which is more of a fancy toy to him (and status symbol). If it was just about transportation to 'events,' he could do it quite comfortably in a much, much more economical (and environmentally friendly) way if he wanted to. I think he really sees his image as a 'successful businessman' and a 'successful religious/humanitarian leader' who needs the status symbols of success, like the jet, to keep his image up. I don't know what magazine his interview is about to appear, but according to Yoram Weiss, it's one that goes to CEOs. So, that kind of fits the image that I think M has of himself as well. I wouldn't be so sure that the 'Major Donor Program' is really gone. I mean, it was a PR disaster for M, and it's been the fodder of a lot of criticism of him on EPO and the Forum, so he might get rid of the official program and keep the various strings to get big donations and offer other kinds of perks that aren't so obvious. I think if there is anything consistent about Maharaji, it's that if he thinks he needs money, he will milk the premies in just about any way he can, from overcharging to sleep in a tent, charging $20 for a $1 video, charging the premies for 'propagation kits,' making god knows what off some kind of 'satellite system' which is mostly just playing videos over broadcast system, etc. [Not to mention selling clothing, jewelry and tea cups, etc.] Maybe he is set financially, but the Gulfstream will drain his money unless he keeps a funnel of cash from the premies. So would Amaroo I would imagine.

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:55:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: joe, i agree with all you have said...amaroo is not on his dime, and he puts noting into it from his personal money, so it does not drain him personally. he has such fear around security (hence control) that he never wants to touch his personal money and personal resources...rather to always have some external stucture to get what he wants. no matter how large his personal fortune is, he will always see it as not enough.

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: michael donner Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:27:10 (EST) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: I spoke to one of my ex lovers recently about amaroo (she lives in Australia and still does service at the place) She said that it was owned by a company from the Channel Isles . This is what she said anyway “ The land content of amaroo is owned by a company based in Jersey UK (Myrine Investments) The company then lease the land to elan vital in australia for 99 years. Elan vital owns the company ivory’s rock conference center and has given the company the rights to run and develop the property. Elan vital raises millions of dollars in loans from its members to develop the place via ivory’s rock conference center. If elan vital goes belly up the there is no liability to Myrine Investments as it has simply leased the land . It would walk away with a property that could be easily developed into a residential development or housing estate” She also said that his guruness was not directly linked to Myrine Investments but controlled it at arms length. MoM

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 02:33:05 (EST) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: test only

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:37:01 (EST) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: test only

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 03:42:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mn

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:53:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sgrt

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 28, 2002 at 14:58:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cxbvzb

Subject: 'Personal money'? Oh, right. From: Carl To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:29:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, as though he had worked for it, or even inherited it. Who remembers Phil Silvers as Sargeant Bilko? I couldn't help thinking of the verb 'to bilk'. Now he has a sweet nest egg generating beaucoup interest, yes? He and his issue are set for life: Grabbed the golden ring, an American dream story. Daddy done good. I wonder if there'll be an Enron-like implosion when his house of smartcards starts to collapse. Stay tuned.

Subject: 'You'll Never Get Rich' [nt] From: Private Duane Doberman To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:59:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Did PRem Rawat inherit big money? From: gerry To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:34:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Premies sometimes claim RawRat's wealth is the result of a large family inheritance and his subsequent investment and business skills. Other believers also say he came to the West with $20 in his pocket. I wonder if he really did inherit any money. Does anyone know the real story?

Subject: Just speculating, but From: Carl To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:57:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the family already had several land holdings and a number of ashrams around India: Dehra Dun (private home), Satlok, Prem Nagar, Punjabi Bagh, places mainly in the north. But there were centers in most of the main cities, at least by the late 60s, I believe. They had been collecting funds, rupee by dedicated rupee, for years under Shri Hans's stewardship. But the story was told that they always ran a shoestring operation because of all the festivals and other propogation=related activities that they were involved in, which included the acquisition of land and the building of ashrams. Still, in rupee terms, they were among the very well-to-do in India, sending the kiddies to private schools, owning cars, traveling by airplane, and so on. This in a country with a huge, unfathomably abysmal poverty-stricken population. But compared to what could be gleaned in the western currencies, it couldn't have been that much . . . certainly not the staggering opulence and waste that it soon became. For getting fabulously rich, he certainly worked the system cleverly. I almost said brilliantly. But the story ain't over. History loves a scoundrel.

Subject: Amaroo/Money/Enough From: Joe To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:42:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right. If you just look at it objectively, his own personal money has always been his numero uno priority, despite the bizarre comments by Ron Geaves to the contrary in the Passages Video. He has never gotten anything together propagation-wise, and is still basically an unknown, but he somehow has planes, residences and tons of money for himself. It's clear what the priority is. And that quote on EPO about needed millions to protect millions you already have, and how hard that is, was so telling, indicating what you said about never having enough. I wondered if Amaroo, due to its isolation, might be seen by M as a place of safety and retreat, and a place where he can 'play God' like have darshan lines, etc., without anybody but the die-hard premies knowing about it. I can't see him getting away with that in the States without some publicity, and 'security' will always be a problem for him in regular venues. Donner, did you ever talk much with Maharaji about money and the need to raise it? If so, what were those discussions like?

Subject: Re: How much longer e cult survive? From: WPC Girl To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:22:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subliminal Arti Will I stop breaking into little verses of arti when that happens? Just yesterday as I was spreading compost on the Barlotti bean bed I found myself singing away, about my saviour. It bothers me because last year the crop suffered after high winds and I don't want to find this years crop doing pranam to the Basil plants. Hope it's soon Gail, and have a good time whichever way it goes love etc. WPC Girl

Subject: Another 'knowledge' reveales online From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:18:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Heritage Society Presents... BRAHAM PRAKAASH (SELECTED VERSES ONLY), BY PEER SHAMSH It's all there .....

Subject: Re: Another 'knowledge' reveales online From: Opie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:15:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [The 'BOL' given by the Satguru has a pronounciable sound which eventually becomes 'non- pronounciable'. It develops into 'Divine sound vibrations' and becomes 'Ajampia Jaap'(non pronounciable word) as said by Peer Sadardeen in some other geenaan. After three months of constant practice, the 'BOL' develops into a 'Divine Sound' or 'Primordial Sound'. This primordial sound existed long ago before the invention of any language and could only be communicated to people by Haazar Imaam and through Him by His appointed successor. According to most religions, long before the creation, there was only 'Primordial Light' and from the light came the 'Word' and the 'Word' was 'God'. After three months of constant practice, one does realise the significance of the 'BOL', as explained by Peer below.] JM, incredible - thanks for that link. I see that it only takes 3-months to realise BOL using their methods. I wished I had known this before, would have saved me countless wasted years. 'BOL' = the word of GOD or, perhaps, Bullshit-on-Line :) Opie

Subject: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:39:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Songs of gratitude I would like to express my deepest thanks to you, Maharaji. You have given me the most genorous gift one could ever give and I. the biggest fool on earth, (I am sure) not only have failed to open the gift but also i keep forgetting to thank you. Since Yoram was here in israel there was a great change in me: it's just that he cleared away a whole amount of dust and now I can see again. David Sevitt Jerusalem, Israel

Subject: Re: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: gurucharnanand To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:20:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahhhh good fuck wwwith blonds too

Subject: Re: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: oezmer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:18:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: goerum duerum allahhhhhhh allalalallalallala huhuuhuhuuhuuhhuuh akbar is dancin in the strip bar

Subject: Hey Yoram, gotta job for you good buddy! From: George 'W' Bush (aka Richard) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:37:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While you're over there in the Holy Land clearing away dust from people's eyes, do you think you and your Guru could do something about those tacky Palestinian suicide bombers and trigger happy Israelis? Those guys really do distract from my 2004 campaign goal of kicking Evil in the butt. Your pal, W. Disclaimer: The President of the US did NOT just post here.

Subject: I am not an idiot From: George W. Bush (aka Joe) To: George 'W' Bush (aka Richard) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:10:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Despite the fact that I was caught on tape waving repeatedly to Stevie Wonder in front of an audience of people a few days ago, some of whom were laughing, I am not an idiot. [You have to read the foreign press, or an obscure item in the Washington Post to know this happened.] In fact, according to the US press, on September 12, 2001, I was transformed from being a dufus and woke up as the reincarnation of Teddy Roosevelt.

Subject: Stevie Wonder is blind. From: Joe To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:30:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In case you didn't get it. Hey, I thought it was funny! The president waving at Stevie Wonder? :)

Subject: What about the nukes? From: Bob Doyle (Gail) To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:42:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless they are being dropped on a certain empty residence in Malibu. . . Don't you think it's a bit harsh to start bombing millions of innocents because they have biological weapons. God, we Yankees didn't even destroy our smallpox strains (which is probably the most successful virus--way better than anthrax) even though we promised to over a decade. Our boys said, 'Why bother. The USSR has misplaced some of its virus and countless renegade states probably kept theirs. Our word is no good either.' It seems to me that this new world order sucks big time for John Q. Public. Maybe they are abusing their new powers to weed out wackers like the Lard.

Subject: Yeah, right From: Jim (aka Jim) To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:26:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [You have to read the foreign press, or an obscure item in the Washington Post to know this happened.] What would you expect? A headline? Do you think the powers that be negotiated the placement? Or is it just subconscious compliance on their lackeys' (i.e. journalists') part to accomdate them while pretending to really be journalists? Scandalous, however you look at it, I'm sure.

Subject: Jim, lighten up, okay? (nt) From: Joe To: Jim (aka Jim) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:31:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Barf Bags From: Pass the To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:55:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You must have a stomach made of steel to read this site!

Subject: What Was That Experience? From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:06:56 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Quoting from my own post of March 2: 'I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when Maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again.' In fact I remember feeling extremely good from that moment until I 'received knowledge' three and a half months later. At that point my life went from kind of static but very very nice to dynamic and sometimes confusing. From my post of March 15, Journey Entry Fifth Installment: 'I must have heard voices too, because I jumped off the second floor balcony of my apartment, not once, but five times. The fifth time I balked, tried to stop myself in mid activity, and ended up breaking some bones and ending up in a hospital, mostly the psychiatric ward, for quite a while.' When I decided to stop the jumping activity, I felt energy leave me and, in fact, from that moment on I could never practice the techniques again. Can anyone explain these experiences to me? I'd be happy to provide clarification to any serious enquirer. Thanks, Steve

Subject: Re: What Was That Experience? From: konni To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:00:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an interesting life story you have. I am guessing that you must have been quite young in 1977. Your description reminds me of the experiences that many young people have which is loosely defined as schizophrenic. Please don't be alarmed by my suggestion. In our teen years we experience heightened hormonal activity (designed to stimulate growth or evolution and perhaps also to balance out the rapid physical changes). Throughout life we have experiences which set us apart. We then experience reactions (physical, emotional, mental) as we make sense of and order the new stimuli in our lives. These reactions are chemical/hormonal and may be experienced subtly, grossly or not at all. The mind/brain is a delicate organism and in youth we are at a delicate stage of development. Foods, additives, light or heavy medicants or drugs, stressful situations have their impact on our finely balanced systems. Some of us have very sensitive metabolisms or sensitive natures and it takes very little to experience an altered state. This can be such an overwhelming experience that it is easy to conclude that - 'I am struggling'. This in turn stimulates more hormonal activity and I guess depending on our circumstances, self esteem, strategy for coping, supportive environment etc. we either assimilate our highs and lows over time or the experience gallops away with us. There are still many unexplained mysteries about our biological nature - physical, spiritual and mental. People see what they want to see, cosmic or otherwise. It probably doesn't matter if you or anyone else wants to deem it real or not, meaningful or not. For me the bottom line is - what are our experiences and beliefs designed to achieve? Are we hanging on to them through habit, or guilt, or belonging or whatever? Does it matter if we change our beliefs? Maharaji's paradigm represented a huge shift in thinking, beliefs, actions etc. and could be experienced on all sorts of levels as cosmic, euphoric etc. you name it. Perhaps for our biological system to accomodate what he was offering, and it was very attractive for a lot of us, we had to create some very tangible experiences. Coming out of that paradigm is also having a huge effect wholistically on people. Premie or not, humans are capable of a diverse range of experience seemingly beyond their creation or control. (refer posting on long list of side effects and John Mac's What is knowledge). It is a tragedy that many people (especially young) have understandably mild or even severe psychotic episodes as they experience the increasing pressure on their understanding of the world and themselves. Tragic because there is still a dreadful stigma associated with this which I believe further pushes ones self confidence over the edge. In my association with sensitive people I have observed that many of those who can roll with the punches or ride the wave without or even while resorting to disorienting, corrective medication or becoming dependent on external support systems etc., will gradually regain a comfortable relationship with themselves, life and all its complexities. They atune, balance, they feel OK about things. They feel a sense of reward in growing older and knowing there's still more to learn. Others panic, feel a sense of failure, grasp at straws and tip towards increasing disorientation, their wonderful biological systems respond by pumping out more helpful hormones. Extreme highs and lows, flashes of brilliance, cosmic moments - we flirt with mind altering substances and jump off balconies. I see that humans continually shift their weight to find balance. We shift our perspective to find balance. Our biological nature is a creative nature. We create perspectives and call them reality.

Subject: A lot of your energy and From: Gail To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:46:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wistful thinking! Sure it felt real. It's rather like listening to a drug addict nonstop for about three weeks straight. The experience starts to sound really good and the next thing you know you're trying it. By listening to all those lies, we lied to ourselves and manufactured the whole trip. Talk about brain farts (brain chemistry), eh?

Subject: Barbara Kolodney? From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:35:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anybody know whatever happened to her? I was told in the early 80s that she left the Maharaji cult with a fairly strong statement. Is anyone in touch with her? She is one of the first people who gave me satsang, BTW.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 22:46:22 (EST) Email Address: mmdonner@shaw.ca Message: hi joe, i have asked about her to many folks and no one seems to know where she is. for awile she bought books for amtext after she left miami, being dumped as an instructor. i would be very interested in being in touch with her...i have very fond memories and regards for her. so, if that happens, my new email address is here.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: Joe To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:32:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always liked Barbara, although I didn't know her well. She seemed to have a sense of humor and was smart. Michael, anything more you have to say on the 'instructor dumping' would be appreciated. Did Barbara leave the cult at that time?

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:13:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: joe, yes, she left at that time. she was devastated to be told that 'she could/should go anywhere and do anything that she wanted'. she and probably most of the other instructors at the time felt that they had 'given their lives to m', that there was a mutual promise to be connected in that service for the rest of their life...that it was a life long commitment they had been asked to make and they made it....to have it pulled out from under them without any consultation or notice. in most cases, they heard from me not from m directly...though there was this expected mutual direct relationship 'no one between us' understanding that m was careful to develop with the instructors. but, as has been said so many times before on this and other forums, m has always been avoiding taking personal responsibility for the systems, institutions and proceedures that he creates. when they go 'bad' or he feels they need to change (usually due to financial reasons in large part) he uses others to do his 'dirty' work. now, i'm sure that m's point of view is that these people gave their lives to him and he could do whatever he wanted to/'with them, including changing their service from that of instructor to that of nothing, anywhere. afterall, obedience is obedience and some instructors viewed the whole sudden change as a 'test' of their loyalty and devotion...blind faith, as they certainly did not understand what he was doing nor why he was doing it...especially why he was doing it to them. so, there was lots of confusion, anger and real sadness during that period. and of course, little or no support for any of them. very little money was allocated for this transistion..like few hundred per instructor, no counselling (that was considered tabo then of course). we managed to get some copies of 'what color is your parachute' and give them out to these 150 people. remember, during that time frame, m was having his marital difficulties and was emotionally, and practically unavailable.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney ps From: michael donner To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:16:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i must say, i cannot speak for barbara's feelings, motivation or experience at that time, nor since as we have not talked since before it all came down. i do know that she did not want to be contacted by anyone and very very few people knew where she was or what she was doing then..or still. (as to why, it would be pure speculation)

Subject: Barbara was great -- From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:02:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unfortunately, I can't help here as far as finding her, because I haven't seen her in years. I would be interested in knowing more about where she ended up after I last saw her. She was in Los Angeles for one or two 'tours' of duty when I lived in the ashram there, and then she came to stay with us for a little bit in the Bay Area ashram in the early 80s. She was pretty down to earth and was well liked by everyone. She had spent some time in Africa living fairly primitively, so she wasn't a 'princess.' --f

Subject: Re: Barbara was great -- From: michaedonner To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:19:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: she was in the peace corp in kenya for some time. she certainly was not universally liked as she was a pretty hard core devotee and expected dedication and devotion from those she spoke to, especailly in the ashram.

Subject: Michael: Oops, busted! From: Francesca To: michaedonner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:15:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, When I knew her I was a 'hard core devotee' myself, although always with a rebellious streak. But now that you mention it, if I had been around her when I was in another space, things might have been different. But that "not floating on a bliss cloud" as Richard said below describes her well. If she was hard core, there was a lot of core to it, rather than fluff. And there's something to be said for having integrity about the whole thing and not being halfway about it, although that integrity and devotion was foolishly misplaced on all our parts. I have to remember that many folks I consider "good people" now were also "good premies," and paid the price dearly for their sincerity. And in LA, I think I got a rep as being a 'hardass' myself for a while. I was ashram coordinator for at least a year or so, somewhere between 1978 and 1980 (when I burned out and was ultimately transferred to SF). The position was created mainly to mobilize the ashrams to pay off a debt that was incurred through Kathy Gliebe for some project or other -- I think it was to purchase the Loyola Theater, an old art deco movie theater, as the local satsang hall. It was also big enough for small programs with Maharaji. Kathy got called to OGM and they needed to pay Kathy's mother off on the loan in a timely manner without any negative impact on her mother's impressions of the guru. So they needed someone who could tell a house coordinator in Malibu that they would have to eat rice and beans all month and still pay off their portion of the debt even if half the brothers in the house weren't working and were going up to the residence every day to do service. That sort of thing. We city folk were more practical than those Malibu gopis (tongue somewhat in cheek). The majority of my ashram sister-ji's were also on a devotional roll, so, ha ha, we didn't find Barbara to be too hard core. With the Maha often in LA (until he left us for Miami), there was a rabid devotional core in the ashram and the community. Thanks for the reality check and the flashback! --f

Subject: Barbara's ashram satsang From: Joe To: michaedonner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:30:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know Barbara could be pretty heavy in giving ashram satsang. At Kissimee in 1979, she gave satsang at that incredibly intense ashram meeting just prior to Maharaji arriving. She talked about how we were all 'beggars' and that 'beggars can't be choosers' and that we had no right to expect any kind of anything in our lives. Part of the reason I recall this, is that the video of that ashram meeting was made available, and it began with the ending of Barbara's satsang, which sort of ended mid-sentence when Maharaji arrived and we all started with the bohle shri's. Then, of course, Maharaji's intense satsang was even worse, but we have all talked about that many times.

Subject: Is that Kissimee event transcribed? From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:42:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't think I've seen a transcript of it - or the Atlanta Instructors' meeting where M talks about marriage. Wasn't Francesca typing it up?

Subject: No, but the Rome Ashram meeting is online From: JHB To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:42:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why read a transcription when you can download Maharaji's own voice instructing ashram premies in Rome. I must link it on EPO sometime, but even with the advertising here, 700 MB has been downloaded from this directory. John. Maharaji's wisdom for ashramers www.ex-premie2.org/download/

Subject: John that NEEDS transcribing From: cq To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:44:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John that NEEDS transcribing - - and I'd only be too willing to do it, except that the audio quality is so dire, I can't make out half of what he's saying! Could you email me if you've got an audio tape or CD which I could work with? Cheers, Chris

Subject: Re: Is that Kissimee event transcribed? From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:45:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia is typing up the transcript of the Atlantic City Coordinators Meeting from December, 1976. And I think she's pretty much finished with it. That's where M talks about marriage (very disparagingly). I'm not aware of the Kissimee Ashram meeting being transcribed, but I know it was recorded and available, at least to the ashrams, and it may have even been published in some edited form in the 'Elan Vital' publication or Divine Times around 1980. If anybody has tapes or magazines from around that time, they might check to see if they have it. Francesca remembers the "suck the rat" comments, etc. M also talked about getting land in Florida, which he said was already identified, where we were all going to live. For some reason the word "Jonestown" entered my evil mind right at that point, if I recall correctly, and I had to remember holy name to get rid of it.

Subject: Here's one volunteer for transcript duty From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:54:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'suck the rat' ??? What the hell does that mean?

Subject: Francesca? From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:24:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to explain? I think it has been enough time since breakfast, but remember, it's lunchtime in the Central Time Zone. :)

Subject: Suck the rat From: Francesca To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:29:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I should have saved this somewhere on my hard drive. Thinking back up the moment when the Maha uttered, no ANGRILY SCREAMED the words 'suck the rat!!!' it was the clearest bell I ever should have heard rung that the guy is nuts. At the ashram meeting at Kissimmee he was working himself up into a positive froth on the theme of us giving our devotion to anything but him. How dare we!!! He started going on about reading books, I think, but anyway, he segued into food. And he started positively ripping us as traitors for eating substitutes for the foods that we, as ashram premies were not supposed to eat. Fake mayonnaise, etc. Then he worked his way into us enjoying any little worldly pleasure, and how pathetic we were in our little enjoyments. Then he started berating us for enjoying Coca-Cola. He said something like, what if you were drinking a Coca-Cola and 'thunk' (he did say 'thunk') there was a dead rat at the bottom of the bottle. He asked if we would love our Coca-Cola then. And he uttered the now famous words, sneering and screaming, 'Suck the rat!!! It's full of Cola-Cola!' No wonder my dedication to the Lardass feet just wouldn't stick. I think it's against human nature to truly dedicate your life to a person as wacko as that. He came ungled with the concept that we would love anyone but him. Some of that theme certainly made its way into the public satsangs at Kissimmee. I think it would be great if someone spliced some old audios and videos and made tapes of Maharaji getting red in the face and screaming. We could call it the Ted Patrick Special in memory of the valiant but misguided efforts of old 'Black Lightning.' If K-lite folks were to watch or listen it would certainly blow their hair back. --F

Subject: It is kind of funny, though From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:06:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is all sick, for sure. I just listened to the first audio clip of the Montreal satsang and the guy is a horrendous oppressor. Even the silences -- God, don't we remember those! -- those silences were our instant, silent confession booths. But, having said that, as ugly as he was, as ugly as he is, you have to admit that, if you accept anything he was saying (which no rational person out of the cult ever could) -- okay, enough quailifiers? It IS kind of funny. You know, just conjurs this cartoon image of someone who really liked their coke. Got to be honest, I laughed when I heard it the first time and I laughed today. Oh well.

Subject: I didn't laugh From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:33:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, maybe I chuckled on one level, but one thing it did for me big time was play right into my guilt for having any desires, or even natural human feelings. Mind you, by that time, my guilty pleasures living in the ashram had been pretty much reduced to: 1. Coffee -- when I could sneak into a coffee shop; 2. Ice cream and occasionally a milk shake; 3. Sneaking a read of the New York Times when nobody was looking; 4. Listening to NPR or an FM music station when I drove my DLM-issue blue, Plymouth Valiant, instead of a droning satsang tape or trash cult-music; and 5. Okay, okay, maybe a very occasional spank or two of the monkey in the ashram bathroom. That was it, really, and Maharaji did his best to make me feel guilty about any of it. That satsang was pure psychological torture and the ultimate in mind-fuck, mind control. It was Maharaji at his most megalomaniacal, sadistic worst when it came to trying to control other human beings.

Subject: Of course From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:25:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I'm saying, Joe, which even you concede, is that it was funny. I mean, I just saw the Mamet flick, 'Heist', the other night. [WARNING -- SPOILER] Danny Devito's shot and Gene Hackman's standing over him about to finish him off. Devito asks 'Don't you want to hear my last words?' to which Hackman replies 'I just did' and shoots him dead. What can I tell you? It was funny. The rat was funny. But it was funny in the cruel, cruel way he toyed with his subjects. I'm telling you, I've listened to only two of the clips now and it's the silence that gets me the most. Because it was in that silence that we tortured ourselves most with self-recrimination. By the way, talking about 'guilty pleasures', my big one was reading Time once a week. That was pretty much it.

Subject:   From:  : To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 21:14:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the way, talking about 'guilty pleasures', my big one was reading Time once a week. That was pretty much it. Is that it Jim? you never spanked your monkey (LOL) in the ashram? May I remind you, you are under oath here...

Subject: I WOULD trascribe that tape From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:24:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't believe what a drone slave I was. Jim had it right about those silences -- our little private confessional booths where we prayed to be worthy. But to hear his creepy voice delivering that sermon would probably have the most effect, although a trascription would tell a lot of the tale. I agree with you Joe. Maharaji's 'jokes' were often at our own expense. We would laugh heartily with the 'Lord' at what worthless, hopeless, unworthy humans we were. Sickening. Absolutely. Francesca

Subject: Re: Francesca? From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:54:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could have sworn that Fran was transcribing something you'd sent her. (thinks ... or was it something I'd sent her?) Only one thing for it - help!

Subject: Nope, not doing any transcripts From: Francesca To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have some tapes a friend sent me, but I haven't even wanted to listen to them. Just reminiscing about all this stuff here is about as much of it as I can stand. When I walk away from the computer, I also walk away from thinking about all of this too much. Bests, --f

Subject: Now I remember! From: cq To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:44:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or should I keep this off-Forum? oh shit, what a quandary. (wasn't there a small matter some proof-reading you were going to do?) Beans spilled. Are beans like milk?

Subject: E-mail me From: Francesca To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:40:29 (EST) Email Address: notinherent@yahoo.com Message: I didn't see the beans! --f

Subject: Agree, Barbara was great -- From: Richard To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:12:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall Barbara as being down to earth, intelligent and friendly. Alway available for real conversation and not floating on a bliss cloud. In other words, a real human being. I hope she is healthy and still embracing life fully.

Subject: mysterious occurence From: WPC Girl To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:38:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read the debacle about aliases and am chastened also a little worried as I don't know who reads this. I'd like to know if anyone can shed light on an incident that occured in the late 80s. Winter 86-87 or87-88. About a week after atending a programme in Wembley (marge not football) a cid inspector knocked on my front door. He had my name and said he was investigating an attack on a young woman who had attended the programme in Wembley. It was late afternoon and I was sending home the neighbors children and feeding and watering my own. I did not have any reason to assume his enquiries were anything other than what he claimed. He stayed for what I later realised was a very long time asking lots of questions. Basically they boiled down to did I know any iffy characters who had attended the event? As far as I knew at the time there weren't any practising rapists or murderers in the darshan line that night. I gave him the names of friends I'd travelled there with and those I remembered seeing there. He never called or visited any of them. I was not registered as having been at the event, people who were never got a visit as far as I know. On and off down the years it's bothered me as I never heard anything in premieland about an attack and wonder if it actually happened. It was the 80s and anything ouside theCBI the Masons or the Tory Party was seen as a subversive organisation so he could have been checking something altogether different from his stated objective. If anyone knows anything about it, did an attack occur? whatever I'd like to know. Maybe he just called for the pleasure of my company. WPC Girl is not the name on my birth certificate, I have lots of reasons to be paranoid. WPC Girl

Subject: Re: mysterious occurence From: blondie To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 19:10:26 (EST) Email Address: mulderssister@hotmail.msn.com Message: The British intellegence services and Police Special Branch have a long history of being interested in any groupings outside of the social norm. This goes way back before Thatcher and the 1979 Government; any organisation that was seen to motivate opinion and /or control financial resources outside the usual business model would have been a prime target for investigation - I'm afraid most of us who spent time in a British ashram will be on a list of potential subversives, somewhere in the intellegence machine. No need to be too worried about this though, promoting squatters rights would get you on the same list. The visit from a CID Officer you describe sounds like a fishing trip - probably if you had offered something that sounded like inside information with a suggestion of some discontent on your part, you may have been asked to give regular insights into the workings of DLM or whatever it was by then. Personally I don't worry about appearing on the subversives listings, if the watchers are actually doing their job properly I'm on their lists not only as a cult member but as an animal rightist and and a trade union activist, which I suspect would confuse the poor dears if they ever thought I was worth looking into (sorry lads if you're reading this, I don't mean to be patronising). 1987 was an election year and numbers of ordinary coppers would have been seconded to intellegence gathering around anything remotely political, in the run up to the election. A friend, since retired from the police told me how he came by a £1000 worth of camera equipment in 1983, when he was told to keep it after being on surveillance, because 'there was no inventory on which it could be entered'. If there was no attack and your CID visitor was not simply spinning out your 'interview' to take him through to the end of his shift, he was probably a secondee to Special Branch and probably way out of his depth in dealing with a cult. My advice take it as an amusing and harmless encounter with one of the more peculiar aspects of the British (not so)secret state. If you are the same WPC Girl who has posted previously - ta I found your writings insightful. (For the Plods thats insightful not inciteful OK)

Subject: I also had a visit form the cid From: Jethro To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:39:51 (EST) Email Address: jed53@hotmail.com Message: I was doing security at that program(late 80s). I presume that's how they got my name. According to the cid blokes, a girl after the program was severly attacked, but had a complete memory block as to what happened.She ws in a coma for a while. She was found in a park. I don't know who the girl was, but I know it was a genuine cid investigation because I checked with cid before I agreed to talk to the bloke. I told him all I could about the program(and of course gave him satsang{barf}). I remember them commenting on how everyone they spoke to at the program talked about m. I don't think he got any helpful info from any of the premies. I never heared from him again. Sorry I couldn't provide you more info. If you want to chat my email is above. Take care Jethro

Subject: Re: I also had a visit form the cid From: Wpc Girl To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:42:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jethro. I hope she made a recovery. I didn't feel like I gave any usefull information to him. Be good to know if the bastard perpetrator got his just rewards. I f the girl, now woman is reading this it didn't happen because of a shortfall in your devotion to m. It happened because there are a lot of dysfunctional scumbags around. I hope you have recovered and moved on and have good support in your life. Sorry none of us was with you to prevent it. Love and good luck, That sounds feeble not sure what I can offer but my thoughts are with you. WPC Girl

Subject: Paranoia...... From: PatD To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:17:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....is corrosive to understanding,I know,I've been there. 1st off I never heard anything about an attack,but as I was well out of the loop then & not even living in the country that's not surprising. You'll never know why the cop came to see you because you never asked him who gave your name. The fact that he never followed up on the names you gave him... maybe they'd already caught the attacker before that was neccessary. How do you think the agents of the state get their information? It's not by reading newspapers,it's by talking to people who are involved in stuff. As you were. I'd say that the state rightly concluded a long time before the '80's that premies were no threat. Maybe your cop had never heard of the Lord of the fucking Universe & was just sussing out the group you were into,maybe he was bored ,maybe he fancied you,maybe who knows.....but you'll never know because you never asked him. A thing that always struck me in the 90's when I started going to events again(usually Brighton conference centre)was the way the blissed out multitude would spill out onto the Promenade & block up the traffic with never a cop in sight. Obviously they knew that premies as a group were not at all subversive & moreover they(the cops) didn't give a shit about people out on the town getting delayed.Bastards. Somebody put them up to it I reckon,probably one of those Tory capitalists with the funny handshake. Get well soon : Pat Dorrity,Stratford-upon-Avon,England.

Subject: Re: Paranoia...... From: WPC Girl To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:32:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey come on Pat, you think having a rational thought goes along with having a baby on your breast, six kids sliding down the stairs on matresses, a nourishing meal burning in the oven and the filth cluttering up your dining table with the accoutrements of criminal investigation? The paranoia is from putting my ore in on a local environmental issue, asking questions I've checked possible answers to. Is it the left trouser leg rolled up that goes with the apron I can never remember , see you at the lodge. Regards and thanks WPC Girl

Subject: Good unintentional pun From: Jim To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:42:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The paranoia is from putting my ore in on a local environmental issue... Hey, how come all your posts have 'link' turned on?

Subject: Re: Good unintentional pun From: WPC Girl To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I knew the answer to that one I'd be as technologicaly proficient as the rest of you seem to be. My normal computer is a wind up steam number with a running board, I wear goggles and have a bloke walking in front with a flag when I use it . Cheers and Jai WPC Girl

Subject: The case of the unmissing links From: cq To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:49:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happened to me once. Apparently if you even just click in the 'Link Name/Link URL' fields (below the box where you type your reply) the system thinks there's link been added, whether you've typed anything in those fields or not. (thinks - now watch everyone try it ;( )

Subject: You're doin' just fine From: gerry To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 18:00:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Verrry interesting post, indeed. Unfortunately I have nothing to add that might help solve the mystery but wanted to add that you are very welcome to stay anonymous and post to your heart's content. Anonymity is an acceptable status here. It only becomes a problem when people post under multiple aliases for purposes of creating havoc and disruption.

Subject: Re: You're doin' just fine From: Bob, Ted, Alice, Bill, Sally To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:30:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How come WPC Girl and Bolly Shri are the only two people whose posts ALWAYS SHOW A LINK but there's no link and also have the same MAC computer. Therefore, WPC Girl and Bolly Shri must be the same person, but one who wants two aliases. Thanks, Bob, Ted, Alice, Horatio, Juan, Izzy, Sarah, Felipe and Carla

Subject: You can't tell by the browser From: gerry To: Bob, Ted, Alice, Bill, Sally Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:53:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And the IP numbers don't match. I rarely look at IP's to see who is who. My natural inclination is to allow people their privacy, especial new posters who may have some privacy concerns. In this case the IPs are different for each post so perhaps WPC girl has a dynamic IP. Maybe she is trying out 'handles' I really don't know. Of course most of us like to know who we are talking with even if it is an anonymous person and consistency in using a name is a courtesy most of us appreciate. I do understand your concern and thanks.

Subject: But why the links icon, Gerry? [nt] From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:55:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: thank you gery From: WPC Girl To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:43:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WPC Girl

Subject: To WPC girl re 'links' From: Livia To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A bit of technical advice: you don't need to click on the 'link name' box; this is for adding a 'link' to another website. It's enough just to put your name in the box at the top of your posts. Otherwise the 'link' icon appears next to all your posts telling everybody there's a link when there isn't. With love, Livia

Subject: Aliases can be OK. From: Richard To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:03:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WPC Girl. The alias thread I started was mainly to do with posting under other people's real names. I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name. Many here do and have for quite some time. I respect your wishes to remain anonymous while contributing here. Your reasons are your own and that's good enough for me. Richard aka Richard

Subject: physical signs of spirit shift From: janet To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:21:18 (EST) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: i got this as a link in my mail this morning. the person who sent it to me knows nothing of my cult years. the person who wrote it knows nothing of either of us. say all you want about it being bunk. I have had all these happen to me, whether or not I was practicing knowledge or living my life as a premie or as a renouncing, denouncing ex. 'hon y soit qui mal y pense' --- --- For the past several years, many of my friends, students, and clients have described experiencing a multitude of changes, strange feelings and physicalsensations. I myself have been passing through an unusual period of my lifethat, in many ways, matches that of my friends. At first, I labeled what was happening to me as a mid-life crisis and/or menopause. But I began to observe similar conditions among men and all age groups. At that point I began to compare notes with others and do some research into this subject. What follows is a compilation of my findings. Many of these may seem bizarre to some readers, but I can assure you that these conditions exist among healthy, mentally and emotionally sound adults from around the world. One note of caution: I am not recommending that anyone ignore major physical or emotional conditions requiring professional attention. So please do not overlook any serious medical condition . But if this list is in anyway helpful to those of you who are confused and worried about some of these symptoms, so be it. The advice given for many of the symptoms is also gathered from various sources (books on traditional spiritual practices as well as channeled information) and may not reflect my own personal experience. As with anything, use discernment: if it's useful, fine; if not, ignore it. One excellent book to read is What Is Lightbody? Archangel Ariel channeled by Tashira Tachi-ren. OrJack Kornfield's A Path with Heart. We all experience our spiritual development in our own unique way. For someof us the changes occur slowly; for others a series of events can trigger sudden growth. We do not all share the same symptoms or changes. And certainly we hold our individual spiritual beliefs. We are as different as snowflakes, yet we share a common essence and general shape. Some of this informationmay resonate for you. Other concepts may not be comfortable for you. Each of us must examine new information and discern for ourselves what is truth and what does not serve us. So I ask you to do this for yourself as you read this list. You are responsible for your own interpretation. Peace and Love, Ellen ellen@hevanet.com SYMPTOMS OF SPIRITUAL AWAKENING 1. Changing sleep patterns: restlessness, hot feet, waking up two or three times a night. Feeling tired after you wake up and sleepy off and on during the day. There is something called the Triad Sleep Pattern that occurs for many: you sleep for about 2-3 hours, wake up, go back to sleep for another couple of hours, wake again, and go back to sleep again. For others, the sleeprequirements have changed. You can get by on less sleep. Lately I have been experiencing huge waves of energy running into my body from the crown. It feels good, but it keeps me awake for a long time, then subsides. Advice: Get used to it. Make peace with it and don't worry about getting enough sleep (which often causes more insomnia). You will be able to make it through the day if you hold thoughts of getting just what you need. You can also request your Higher Power to give you a break now and then and give you a good, deep night's sleep. If you can't go back to sleep right away, use the waking moments to meditate, read poetry, write in your journal or look at the moon. Your body will adjust to the new pattern. 2. Activity at the crown of the head: Tingling, itching, prickly, crawling sensations along the scalp and/or down the spine. A sense of energy vibrating on top of the head, as if energy is erupting from the head in a shower. Also the sensation of energy pouring in through the crown, described as 'sprinkles'. This may also be experienced as pressure on the crown, as if someone is pushing his/her finger into the center of your head. As I mentioned in #1, I have been experiencing huge downloads of energy through the crown. In the past, I have felt more generalized pressure, as if my head is in a gentle vise. One man related that his hair stood on end and his body was covered with goosebumps. Advice: This is nothing to be alarmed about. What you are experiencing is an opening of the crown chakra. The sensations mean that you are opening up to receive divine energy. 3. Sudden waves of emotion. Crying at the drop of a hat. Feeling suddenly angry or sad with little provocation. Or unexplicably depressed. Then very happy. Emotional roller coaster. There is often a pressure or sense of emotions congested in the heart chakra (the middle of the chest). This is not to beconfused with the heart, which is located to the left of the heart chakra. Advice: Accept your feelings as they come up and let them go. Go directly to your heart chakra and feel the emotion. Expand it outward to your all yourfields and breathe deeply from the belly all the way up to your upper chest. Just feel the feeling and let it evaporate on its own. Don't direct the emotions at anyone. You are cleaning out your past. If you want some help with this, say out loud that you intend to release all these old issues and ask your Higher Power to help you. You can also ask Grace Elohim to help you release with ease and gentleness. Be grateful that your body is releasing theseemotions and not holding onto them inside where they can do harm. One source suggests that depression is linked to letting go of relationships to people, work, etc. that no longer match us and our frequencies. When we feel guilty about letting go of these relationships, depression helps us medicate that pain. 4. Old 'stuff' seems to be coming up, as described above, and the people with whom you need to work it out (or their clones) appear in your life. Completion issues. Or perhaps you need to work through issues of self-worth, abundance, creativity, addictions, etc. The resources or people you need to helpyou move through these issues start to appear. Advice: Same as #3. Additionally, don't get too involved in analyzing these issues. Examining them too much will simply cycle you back through them over and over again at deeper and deeper levels. Get professional help if you need to and walk through it. Do not try to avoid them or disassociate yourself from them. Embrace whatever comes up and thank it for helping you move ahead. Thank your Higher Power for giving you the opportunity to release these issues. Remember, you don't want these issues to stay stuck in your body. 5. Changes in weight. The weight gain in the US population is phenomenal. Other people may be losing weight. We often gain weight because many fears we have suppressed are now coming up to the surface to be healed. We react by building up a defense. We also attempt to ground ourselves or provide bulk against increasing frequencies in our bodies. Advice: Don't freak out, but just accept it as a symptom of where you are right now. You will release/gain the weight when all your fears have been integrated. Release your anxiety about this. Then you might find it easier to lose/gain the weight eventually. Exercise. Before eating, try this: Sit at the table with an attractive place setting. Light a candle. Enjoy how the food looks. Place your dominant hand over your heart and bless the food. Tell your body that you are going to use the food to richly nourish it, but that you are not going to use the food to fulfill your emotional hungers. Then pass your hand from left to right over the food and bless it. You may notice that the food feels warm to your hand even if the food is cold-- I like to think that the food is good for me when it feels warm and nourishing to my hand. I have also noticed that when I practice blessing the food, I don't eat as much. It is important not to let yourself off the hook when you forget to bless the food before you eat. If I've forgotten and I've nearly finished eating, I bless the food anyway. That way I don't slip out of the habit. Another thing you can do is to stay present while eating -- don't watch TV or read. Heartily enjoy what blessings are before you. 6. Changes in eating habits: Strange cravings and odd food choices. Some find they are not as hungry as they used to be. Or hungrier. Advice: Don't deny what your body tells you it needs. If you are not sure, you might try muscle-testing before you chose a food to see if it's what your body wants. Also try blessing the food as described in #5. 7. Food intolerances, allergies you never had before: As you grow more spiritual, you are more sensitive to everything around you. Your body will tell you what it can no longer tolerate, as if it, too, is sloughing off what doesn't serve it anymore. You might be cleansing yourself of toxins. Some people find they often have a white residue in their mouth, much like that of runners at the end of a race. Advice: An acupuncturist told me that this film can be removed by sloshing 2 tablespoons of cold-pressed olive oil in your mouth for 10-15 minutes (don't swallow, whatever you do), then spitting it out into the toilet -- not the sink, for you just removed toxins from your body and don't want them in the sink. Brush your teeth and do the same. Then clean your brush. (Sorry this is yukky, but it works.) 8. Amplification of the senses. Increased sensitivity. 8a. Sight: Blurry vision, shimmering objects, seeing glittery particles, auras around people, plants, animals, and objects. Some report seeing formerlyopaque objects as transparent. When you close your eyes, you no longer see darkness, but a redness. You may also see geometric shapes or brilliant colors and pictures when eyes are closed. Colors appear more vivid -- the sky might look teal or the grass an amazing green. Often I see grids running across the ground. As you become more sensitive, you may see shapes or outlines in the air, especially when the room is almost dark. When your eyes are open or closed, you may see white shapes in your peripheral vision (these are your guides). Advice: Your vision is changing in many ways -- you are experiencing new ways of seeing. Be patient. Whatever you do, do not be afraid. Hazy vision maybe relieved by yawning. 8b. Hearing: Increased or decreased hearing. I once thought I would have to pull off the road because of the painfully amplified sound of my tires on the freeway. Other symptoms are hearing white noise in the head, beeps, tones, music or electronic patterns. Some hear water rushing, bees buzzing, whooshing, roaring or ringing. Others have what is called audio dyslexia-- you can't always make out what people are saying, as if you can no longer translate your own language. Some hear strange voices in their dreams, as if someoneis hovering near them. You can either ask the presence(s) to leave or ask Archangel Michael to take care of the situation. Again, there is nothing to fear. Advice: Surrender to it. Let it come through. Listen. Your ears are adjusting to new frequencies. 8c. Enhanced senses of smell, touch, and/or taste. I notice I can now smell and taste chemical additives in some foods in a rather unpleasant manner. Other food may taste absolutely wonderful. For some people, these enhancements are both delightful and distracting. You might even smell the fragrance of flowers now and then. Many of the mystics did. Enjoy it. 9. Skin eruptions: Rashes, bumps, acne, hives, and shingles. Anger produces outbreaks around the mouth and chin. I had a dermatitis on my extremities for several months that accompanied healing an episode from my past. When I had worked through most of the issue, the condition was released. Advice: You may be sloughing off toxins and bringing emotions to the surface. When there is an issue to be released and you are trying to repress it, your skin will express the issue for you until you process the emotions. Work through your 'stuff'. 10. Episodes of intense energy which make you want to leap out of bed and into action. Followed by periods of lethargy and fatigue. The fatigue usually follows great shifts. This is a time of integration, so give into it. Advice: Roll with the nature of the energy. Don't fight it. Be gentle with yourself. Take naps if you are tired. Write your novel if you are too energized to sleep. Take advantage of the type of energy. 11. Changes in prayer or meditation. Not feeling the same sensations as before. Not having the same experience of being in contact with Spirit. Difficulty in focusing. Advice: You may be in more instant and constant communion with Spirit now and the sensation may therefore be altered. You will adapt to this new feeling. You are actually thinking and acting in partnership with Spirit most of the time now. You may find your meditation periods shorter. 12. Power surges: All of a sudden you are heated from head to toe. It is a momentary sensation, but uncomfortable. In contrast, some people have felt inexplicably cold. I have experienced both. More recently I experience waves or currents of energy rolling through me. Sometimes the energy seems so intense when it first comes into my body that I feel a little nauseated. But if I think of the energy as divine and let go of fear, I feel wonderful and enjoy the sensation. If you are an energy worker, you may have noticed that the heat running through your hands has increased tremendously. This is good. Advice: If you are uncomfortable, ask your Higher Power, that if it be for your best and highest good, to turn down/up the temperature a bit. 13. A range of physical manifestations: Headaches, backaches, neck pains, flu-like symptoms (this is called vibrational flu), digestive problems, muscular spasms or cramps, racing heartbeat, chest pains, changes in sexual desire, numbness or pain in the limbs, and involuntary vocalizations or bodily movements. Some of us have even had old conditions from childhood reappear briefly for healing. Advice: Remember what I said about seeking medical help if you need it! If you have determined that this is not a medical condition, relax in the realization that it is only temporary. 14. Looking younger. Yippee! As you clear emotional issues and release limiting beliefs and heavy baggage from the past, you are actually lighter. Your frequency is higher. You love yourself and life more. You begin to resemble the perfect you that you really are. 15. Vivid dreams. Sometimes the dreams are so real that you wake up confused. You may even have lucid dreams in which you are in control. Many dreams may be mystical or carry messages for you. And in some dreams, you just know that you are not 'dreaming' -- that what is happening is somehow real. Advice: You will remember what is important for you to remember. Don't force anything. Above all, stay out of fear. 16. Events that completely alter your life: death, divorce, change in job status, loss of home, illness, and/or other catastrophes -- sometimes severalat once! Forces that cause you to slow down, simplify, change, re-examine who you are and what your life means to you. Forces that you cannot ignore. Forces that cause you release your attachments. Forces that awaken your senseof love and compassion for all. 17. A desire to break free from restrictive patterns, life-draining jobs consumptive lifestyles, and toxic people or situations. You feel a compelling need to 'find yourself' and your life purpose -- now! You want to be creative and free to be who you really are. You might find yourself drawn to the arts and nature. You want to unclutter yourself from things and people that nolonger serve you. Advice: Do it! 18. Emotional and mental confusion: A feeling that you need to get your life straightened out--it feels like a mess. But at the same time you feel chaotic and unable to focus. See #45. Advice: Put your ear to your heart and your own discernment will follow. 19. Introspection, solitude and loss of interest in more extraverted activities: This stage has come as a surprise to many extraverts who formerly saw themselves as outgoing and involved. They say, 'I don't know why, but I don't like to go out as much as before.' 20. Creativity bursts: Receiving images, ideas, music, and other creative inspirations at an often overwhelming rate. Advice: At least record these inspirations, for Spirit is speaking to you about how you might fulfill your purpose and contribute to the healing of theplanet. 21. A perception that time is accelerating. It seems that way because you have had so many changes introduced into your life at an unprecedented rate. The number of changes seems to be growing. Advice: Breaking your day up into appointments and time segments increases the sense of acceleration You can slow time down by relaxing into the present moment and paying attention to what's at hand, not anticipating what's ahead. Slow down and tell yourself that you have plenty of time. Ask your Higher Power to help you. Keep your focus on the present. Try to flow from one activity to the next. Stay tuned to your inner guidance..You can also warp time by asking for it. Next time you feel rushed, say, 'Time warp, please. I need some more time to --- --.' Then relax. 22. A sense of impendingness. There is a feeling that something is about to happen. This can create anxiety. Advice: There is nothing to worry about. Things are definitely happening, but anxiety only creates more problems for you. All your thoughts -- positiveor negative-- are prayers. There is nothing to fear. 23. Impatience. You know better, but sometimes you can't help it. You want to get on with what seems to be coming your way. Uncertainty is not comfortable. Advice: Learn to live with the uncertainty, knowing that nothing comes to you until you are ready. Impatience is really a lack of trust, especially trust in your Higher Power. When you focus on the present, you will experience miracles -- yes, even in traffic. 24. A deep yearning for meaning, purpose, spiritual connection, and revelation. Perhaps an interest in the spiritual for the first time in your life. 'Constant craving', as k.d. lang says. The material world cannot fulfill this longing. Advice: Follow your heart and the way will open up for you. 25. A feeling that you are somehow different. A disquieting sense that everything in your life feels new and altered, that you have left your old self behind. You have. You are much greater than you can possibly imagine. There is more to come. 26. 'Teachers' appear everywhere with perfect timing to help you on your spiritual journey: people, books, movies, events, Mother Nature, etc. Teachers may appear to be negative or positive when you are trapped in polarity thinking, but, from a transcendent perspective, they are always perfect. Just what you need to learn from and move on. By the way, we never get more than we are ready to master. Each challenge presents us with an opportunity to show our mastery in passing through it. 27. You find a spiritual track that makes sense to you and 'speaks to you' at the most profound levels. Suddenly you are gaining a perspective that you would never have considered before. You hunger to know more. You read, share with others, ask questions, and go inside to discover more about who you are and why you are here 28. You are moving through learning and personal issues at a rapid pace. You sense that you are 'getting it' quite readily. Advice: Keep remembering that things will come to you when they are ready to be healed. Not sooner. Deal with whatever comes up with courage and you will move through the issues rapidly. 29. Invisible presences. Here is the woo-woo stuff. Some people report feeling surrounded by beings at night or having the sensation of being touched or talked to. Often they will wake with a start. Some also feel their body orbed vibrate. The vibrations are caused by energetic changes after emotionalclearing has taken place. Advice: This is a sensitive topic, but you may feel better blessing your bed and space around it before you sleep. I rest assured that I am surrounded only by the most magnificent spiritual entities and am always safe in God's care. Sometimes, however, the fear gets to me, and I call in Archangel Michael and/or Archangel Uriel. I don't beat myself up for being afraid sometimes. I forgive myself for not always sovereign at 3:00 a.m. 30. Portents, visions, 'illusions', numbers, and symbols: Seeing things that have spiritual importance for you. Noticing how numbers appear synchronistically in your awareness. Everything has a message if you take the time to look. I enjoy the experience of 'getting the messages.' What fun! 31. Increased integrity: You realize that it is time for you to seek and speak your truth. It suddenly seems important for you to become more authentic, more yourself. You may have to say 'no' to people whom you have tried to please in the past. You may find it intolerable to stay in a marriage or job or place that doesn't support who you are. You may also find there is nowhere to hide, no secrets to keep anymore. Honesty becomes important in all yourrelationships. Advice: Listen to your heart. If your guidance tells you not to do something, speak up and take action. Say 'no'. Likewise, you must also say 'yes' to that which compels you. You must risk displeasing others without guilt in order to attain spiritual sovereignty. 32. Harmony with seasons and cycles: You are becoming more tuned to the seasons, the phases of the moon and natural cycles. More awareness of your place in the natural world. A stronger connection to the earth. 33. Electrical and mechanical malfunctions: When you are around, lightbulbs flicker, the computer locks up, or the radio goes haywire. Advice: Call on your angels, guides, or Grace Elohim to fix it or put up a field of protection of light around the machine. Surround your car with bluelight. Laugh. 34. Increased synchronicity and many small miracles. Look for more of these. Advice: Synchronistic events tell you if you are heading in the right direction or making the correct choices. Honor these clues and you cannot go astray. Spirit uses synchronicity to communicate to you. That's when you begin to experience daily miracles. See #30. 35. Increased intuitive abilities and altered states of consciousness: Thinking of someone and immediately hearing from them. More synchronicities. Having sudden insights about patterns or events from the past. Clairvoyance, out-of-body experiences, and other psychic phenomena. Intensified sensitivity and knowing. Awareness of one's essence and that of others. Channeling angelic and Christ-consciousness energies. 36. Communication with Spirit. Contact with angels, spirit guides, and other divine entities. Channeling. More and more people seem to be given this opportunity. Feeling inspiration and downloading information that takes form as writing, painting, ideas, communications, dance, etc. 37. A sense of Oneness with all. A direct experience of this Wholeness. Transcendent awareness. Being flooded with compassion and love for all life. Compassionate detachment or unconditional love for all is what lifts us up to higher levels of consciousness and joy. 38. Moments of joy and bliss. A deep abiding sense of peace and knowing that you are never alone. 39. Integration: You become emotionally, psychologically, physically, and spiritually stronger and clearer. You feel as if you are in alignment with your Higher Self. 40. Living your purpose: You know you are finally doing what you came to earth for. New skills and gifts are emerging, especially healing ones. Your life/work experiences are now converging and starting to make sense. You are finally going to use them all. Advice: Listen to your heart. Your passion leads you to where you must go. Go within and ask your Higher Power, 'What is it you would have me do?' Watch for synchronicities. Listen. 41. Feeling closer to animals and plants. To some people, animals now seem to be more 'human' in their behavior. Wild animals are less afraid. Plants respond to your love and attention more than ever. Some may even have messages for you. 42. Seeing beings of other dimensions. The veil between dimensions is thinner, so it is not surprising. Just stay in your sovereignty. You are more powerful than you can ever imagine, so do not entertain fear. Ask your guides for help if you slip into fear. 43. Seeing a person's true form or seeing loved ones with a different face -- past life or parallel life. 44. Physically manifesting thoughts and desires more quickly and efficiently. Advice: Monitor your thoughts. All thoughts are prayers. Be careful what you ask for. 45. Left -brain fogginess. Your psychic abilities, your intuitive knowing, your feeling and compassion, your ability to experience your body, your visioning, your expressiveness all emanate from the right brain. In order for this side of the brain to develop more fully, the left brain must shut down a little bit. Normally the left-hemisphere's capacity for order, organization,structure, linear sequencing, analysis, evaluation, precision, focus, problem-solving, and mathematics dominate our often less-valued right brain. What results are memory lapses, placing words in the wrong sequence, inability or no desire to read for very long, inability to focus; forgetting what you are just about to say; impatience with linear forms of communication (audio or written formats); a feeling of spaciness, being scattered; losing interestin research or complex information; feeling bombarded with words and talk and information; and a reluctance to write. Sometimes you feel dull and have no interest in analysis, lively intellectual discussion, or investigation. On the other hand, you might find yourself drawn to the sensate: videos, magazines with photos, beautiful artwork, movies, music, sculpting, painting, being with people, dancing, gardening, walking, and other kinesthetic forms of expression. You may search for spiritual content, even science fiction. Advice: You may discover that if you allow your heart and your right brain to lead you, the left will then be activated appropriately to support you. And someday we will be well-balanced, using both hemispheres with mastery. 46. Dizziness. This occurs when you are ungrounded. Perhaps you have just cleared a big emotional issue and your body is adjusting to your 'lighter' state. Advice: Ground yourself by eating protein. Sometimes 'comfort food' feels right. Don't make any food right or wrong for you. Use your guidance to know what you need at any given moment. Take your shoes off and put your feet in the grass for a couple of minutes. 47. Falling, having accidents, breaking bones. Your body is not grounded or perhaps your life is out of balance. Or your body may be telling you to slow down, examine certain aspects of your life, or heal certain issues. There is always a message. When I recently broke my ankle, I understand that my ankle was taking on what I myself refused to deal with. And that was all of the above. Advice: Stay grounded by taking your shoes off and putting your feet in the grass; even better, lie down on the grass without a blanket under you. Feelthe earth beneath you. Get out in nature. Slow down and pay attention. Be mindful about what you are doing. Feel your feelings when they come up. Stay in the present. Surround yourself with blue light when you are feeling shaky. 49. Heart palpitations. A racing heart usually accompanies a heart opening. It only lasts for a few moments and means that the heart is re-balancing itself after an emotional release. I had one episode that terrified me: I woke up in the middle of the night, my heart pounding. I thought it was going tocome right out of my chest. It only happened once and was, I understand, a huge heart-chakra opening. But I did check it out. There is nothing wrong with my heart. Advice: Remember what I said about getting medical attention when needed. Consult your doctor about any conditions you are not comfortable with. 50. Faster hair and nail growth. More protein is being used in the body. Too bad we can't tell the body where to grow the hair and where not to grow it. (Or can we? Hmmm.) 51. A desire to find your soulmate or twin flame. More than ever before, the idea that we can have a relationship that matches who we are seems more desirable. Advice: The truth is, we have to be the kind of person we want to attract. We have to love ourselves and where we are right now before we can attract a more 'perfect' mate. The work begins at home. Here is how I think it works: Hold the desire for this person in your heart, but without attachment. Expect that someday you will meet someone who is more suited to you, but let go of any expectations as to who this will be and how it will happen. Focus instead on cleaning up your own life and being the kind of person you want to be. Be happy now. Enjoy your life. Then you may see..... 52. Memories surface. Body memories, suppressed memories, images of past lives and/or parallel lives. We are healing and integrating all our 'selves', so expect to have some of these experiences. Advice. Keep in mind that it is best to recall what only what comes to mind, leave the rest alone, don't analyze everything to death (because you will be stuck in the tape loop of infinite issues to process), and feel your feelings as they come up. Ask for help from your guides. View Guestbook Sign Guestbook couldn't ccp both--sorry

Subject: Re: physical signs of spirit shift From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:49:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You want to unclutter yourself from things and people that no longer serve you. Advice: Do it! Hmmm! It all sounds like the symptoms of growing older, becoming more selfish (see above), menopause, and the growing awareness of possibly not having enough time left in which to do all the things we've always wanted to! Methinks the person who originally wrote it read too much phony 'spirituality' into it all... With love, Livia

Subject: Complete garbage. Madness, really [nt] From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:27:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: faster Nail and Hair growth? [nt] From: bill-- Jim, you got something against To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:33:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Of course, Bill, I'm a guitar player [nt] From: Jim To: bill-- Jim, you got something against Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:04:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Janet From: Peg To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:53:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just having a quick lurk before bed and half read your post before I realised how long it was. Most of the first ones applied to me. I had also ascribed it to the menopause. I probably still do as i am very sceptical about this idea of awakening (as I am about practically everything these days). I would like to have a proper read and think about it though so will come back to it later. Peg

Subject: Re: physical signs of spirit shift From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:04:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wondered how that stain appeared on my coffee table. It must have been when I spilled my scotch as I was shifting the bottle of spirits.

Subject: how bout your internals? From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:55:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ha ha--very funny--now read it again. had any interior stains disappear lately? like -no matter how much you drink, you can't get drunk? or losing your taste for it entirely? and missing it but knowing that doesn't work anymore?

Subject: Yes, I get hangovers from very little booze From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:06:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's because I have a big piece of my colon missing which used to re-absorb water and now I get dehydrated easily.

Subject: Worthless, but thanks, Janet [nt] From: OTS To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:43:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: no, you don't underSTAND... From: janet To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:26:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this isn't worthless , not when you've been battling stuff like this for years, haappenning to you when you don't want it to, or when it gets in your way all the time! cases in point: for the last 4 years, I have been frustrated by my increasing inability to sleep in a normal pattern. I can't sleep the full all night expected regimen. i tried pills. I tried herbs. I tried alcohol. I tried music. I tried you name it. couldn't fall asleep when I had to, kept falling asleep when I didn't want to. caffeine put me to sleep at ten AM. my doctor couldn't nail it down. lately I just gave up trying to control it and let it do whatever. Now I wake up like a shot at dawn, get up, feed the cats, clean up the kitchen or my room a bit, get online till i get hungry, eat, and drift back to sleep thru midday. wake in early afternoon about 4 hours later, go out and work in the yard, come in at sunset, eat supper, and a half hour later, crash again for around four hours. wake in mid evening, go online some more, stay at it until deep drag of sleep knocks me out at the keyboard. wake some time later just long enough to kill the lights and the screen, lapse back under. wake like a shot again at sunrise. lather, rinse repeat. i get the sped up time sense. i get the emotional eruptions that pass. i get the energy surges and drops, at really fucked up times. i beat myself up for not being able to 'perform' when i think i should. I had a fight with myself out at the washing machine two days ago, bashing on the machine like thunder, spewing invective at myself for being so mired down and ineffective, then responded to myself in seething, enraged protectiveness, and vowed to kill the abusive side of me who would threaten the blameless innocent half of me who had done no wrong to anybody! If there had been two bodies, there would have been a fistfight on the spot. not psycho. was totally aware of the ridiculousness of the whole scenario. couldn't walk away from it or break in and silence it either. had to let it play out. this monograph helps put a name to such strange experiences and put them in a bigger context. we live in such a pompous, egotistical little world that we are jeered at from childhood about anything we do or say, and we get so we hide , deny, defend or keep silent about our inner world in order to appear cool, normal, together, in control, lto look like everybody else. it's isolating and ignorance-increasing. when something like this makes known that numerous others are experiencing the same things, it breaks the wall down and gives a place to be honest about it sorta like the forum does for people sick of maharaji's world. you know? break the tabos and call it what it is? so your mileage may vary, but I put it here so anyone else who might be having these could know it's not just them. it's far from worthless. instead of jumping in, first thing, with your dismissive and unhelpful take, how bout you stand back and watch, now --- and see who else weighs in? it's a big world out there. and bigger on the inside than even on the outside.

Subject: Re: no, you don't underSTAND... From: Loaf To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello It sounds to me like a natural raction to a number of social and physiological changes. 1. the pattern of family life has changed so that people 'do their own thing' more 2. Economics means that you are not out working in the field for as long as their is daylight. 3.People are worried about the future and the state of the world. This affects priorities and the flight or fight syndrome means that the tribe is getting ready (being manipulated) into either upping sticks or bedding in. 4. There are lots of chemicals in the air and our food which make our hair and teeth grow etc. 5. There is no higher power we all agree on.. so what people end up doing is splintering off into unique bubbles of unchallengable faith Its good to have a context.

Subject: Re: From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:59:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I have liked a lot of your creative writing. You do somehow have the luxury of sleeping when you want. If you were compelled to work an 8 hour scheduled workday, and had compelling activities that kept you up during the early evening, and had a walk, I bet your body would do a shift to adjust. Fiermyalgia folks have trouble sleeping and it really screws them up. Thier bodies trouble them greatly and I hope you arent headed for that. I have heard that protein as the last meal is best for sleep. Deep sleep that is, check what you are eating and maybe adjust it and the times you eat also. If my kids or wife get to bed late, I hate to see them the next day.....or two!! Because it does effect them. And they are not themselves if you ask me. I do have to fight that fight more often than I want certainly, because I DO have to interact with them, and lack of sleep makes them crabby and worse. At least you can cat nap. Nice that you can sleep when you want. But we do need that deep rem sleep, and hopefully you get enough. Me too!

Subject: You guys, honestly!!! From: justanotherdumbbroad To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 06:22:47 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Just read that piece Janet, and its one of those sort of points that sticks in my throat when 'Big Bad Jim' and the other blokes just dismiss it all completely out of hand, like oh well just anotherdumbspiritualtrip/broad/blah. Of course its sounds New Agey and I don't advocate we all join in, but hey can't you guys listen to anybody else's 'truth' Did too many years at the lotus feet dim your powers of perception entirely. We are not talking rational thinking here. Too much is already made in the western world of logico-deducto, in fact so much, that the world, people, society if you like has lost its creative edge. Where does that creativity come from guys?? What struck me was the bald faced macho aggression that said 'shite' it must be shite. Hey we don't understand this with our logico-deductive minds it must be shite. Why did it strike me this way. I just finished reading John Lennon's last interview. Made 20 years ago, released a couple of years ago, it still sounds prophetic even 20 years later. Another bubble burst for me. Like it did when I left the 'master's' feet, my hero John was a woman hitter. In these last words he was sounding kind of remorseful for what he had done that in his life that was bad. That his hard macho aggression allowed him to do that. So he spent the last five years of his life getting in touch with his softer side. His feminine side. Did I say you all had to become pansies now. No. What I am saying is that we already live in a world so hard edged that we are killing ourselves constantly, spiritually, morally, physically, we are fighting to survive and in the end if all there is is a macho 'let's get 'em boys' attitude will we be any better off when the final slaughter has been perpetrated!!! So what then blow the smoke off your throbbing barrel' Is it still loyalty over full discourse? No questions asked, we're better off not knowing, think about it Jim, where are you leading us with your black and white, no nonsense, no room for discussion sort of attitude. Your a clever man. Is there no spirituality whatsoever?

Subject: I wish Gerry enforced SOME identity rule From: Jim To: justanotherdumbbroad Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:34:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too bad people can just hide their identity like this. It's completely rude, not to mention confusing and cowardly. Some bulletin boards require passwords and the like. The concensus among the exes seems to have always been to avoid doing so so that, on any given Sunday, some new person can just pop in and say hi and anway we go, another poster finding the voice that was suppressed along with their mind at the feet of the Master. But this is ridiculous. For all I know, you're someone who'se been posting for years! Hell, you might even be Janet herself, for all I know (although I doubt it). This kind of abuse of anonymity reminds me of ransom notes. If you don't believe in what you're saying enough to come out of the shadows, maybe you shouldn't bother saying it, no? Anyway, I obviously don't share your concerns. There's more than enough to occupy ourselves with here on planet earth for the few decades we've got left that we have to indulge in that kind of nonsense. I also think there's absolutely no truth whatsoever to your claim that we've somehow lost our 'creativity'. If you mean that, in growing up, we leave behind the anything's possible world of childhood imagination, yeah, that's true. It's called growing up.

Subject: Re: I wish Gerry enforced SOME identity rule From: Justin Other To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:59:02 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Jim I don't necessarily want to hide my identity and I dont necessarily want to be rude to you in particular. Its two things, firstly, I get annoyed by anything that's just dismissed out of hand, we did that so often as premies, oh its only ... this world. I think we should let those who have their beliefs have them. It may be nonsense to you, but it isn't to others. Yes we do feel strongly about things but its the way that you dismiss everything that doesn't tally with your beliefs that gets me. I am afraid to post under my real name. Yes it is painful. Secondly, posting anonymously, what difference would it have made if I had posted in my real name. Would your response be any different? I actually meant that as a race we are so busy thinking in straight lines and making everything fit that we actually don't stop enough to take time to be creative. You know what creative means, its not just a childish thing. Its about inventive, new, different, even taking time to see the world in a different way! How else would painters paint! I don't usually post and its so strange that when you actually disagree with someone you want everyone to agree with you, but when someone does is dismissive of you then somehow it becomes a forum issue. Have anonymity banned, etc. Wishing you well . . . PS I am not a troll and I don't post here often.

Subject: No honour in what you're doing From: Jim To: Justin Other Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:59:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim I don't necessarily want to hide my identity and I dont necessarily want to be rude to you in particular. Then don't. What is this? Are you saying that you just can't control yourself? Really, there is no way you hve any right to do this at all. In fact, I think you should be outed. If you've got an identity that we all know and, for some reason, you choose to hide it at one instant just to take pot shots at another poster, why in the world should that kind of anonymity be respected? Go ahead, tell me. I'm all ears. Because personally I see this abuse of anonymity as an entirely different kettle of fish than its normal use. Its two things, firstly, I get annoyed by anything that's just dismissed out of hand, we did that so often as premies, oh its only ... this world. I think we should let those who have their beliefs have them. It may be nonsense to you, but it isn't to others. Yes we do feel strongly about things but its the way that you dismiss everything that doesn't tally with your beliefs that gets me. I am afraid to post under my real name. Yes it is painful. This is faulty reasoning. I got my first Visa card as an ashram premie, believe it or not. Does that mean I shouldn't use credit or, if I do, I should stick to Mastercard? The world is full of stupid nonsense that most definitely deserves the bum's rush. Not surprisingly, people who were once silly enough to join the cult we did might from time to time drop some of that crazy idiocy at our doorstep here. Fine. Get a broom, open the door and sweep that garbage away. Hey, if I'm wrong, tell me how. Think. Speak. Prove your point, if you've got one. Or try this -- change your mind. Whatever. There is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in the process -- if, indeed, you're interested in the truth on whatever's being discussed. And pain? I have no idea what you're talking about. Secondly, posting anonymously, what difference would it have made if I had posted in my real name. Would your response be any different? Give me a break! You posted to me partly, if not entirely, because you knew it was me you were talking to. Why shouldn't I enjoy the same privilege? Especially when you insulted me? I actually meant that as a race we are so busy thinking in straight lines and making everything fit that we actually don't stop enough to take time to be creative. You know what creative means, its not just a childish thing. Its about inventive, new, different, even taking time to see the world in a different way! How else would painters paint! Well, your creativity, if that's what it is, has made you too frightened to post under your own name and bleating about the 'pain' you feel. If that's a product of some fuller vision, who needs it? I don't usually post and its so strange that when you actually disagree with someone you want everyone to agree with you, but when someone does is dismissive of you then somehow it becomes a forum issue. Have anonymity banned, etc. Do you think that other forums or bulletin boards liek this one tolerate your kind of abuse of anonymity? My understanding is that they normally don't. Maybe they're too busy thinking along 'straight' lines but I think they're right. This is an abuse of the medium, no doubt about it. Who are you? Wishing you well . . . PS I am not a troll and I don't post here often. Well, as Forrest Gump said, 'Troll is as troll does'.

Subject: The point was ...... From: OK JIM To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:59:51 (EST) Email Address: none Message: was not about you - the point about the original post was that it ssemed to me to be about there being less of kind of honcho macho aggressive dismissing things out of hand attitude. Why should we just judge everything right or wrong, one can privately, but is it necessary to dismiss things out of hand without some sort of discussion because it doesn't tally with one's own view. You make me out to sound evil and malevolent. I had no intention of aiming anything personally at you whatsoever, you just came with the swathe of others who also dismissed the Janet post without rhyme or reason. It was aimed at all those who just off handedly dismiss everything that doesn't tie in with their reality. Not just you Jim. I have nothing personal against you, no grudge, couldn't really care less what you think. Just want to give others a chance. You seemed to miss the point entirely about my post. The bit about Lennon's remorse at having been such a reckless macho... I am not evil or have any intention of hurting anyone. My concern is with healing the damage done by the cult mindset, in myself and others, and seeing everything for what it is. No big views. Just want a humanitarian kind of outlook now, after years of being sucked into some mindless shit with censorship taking place all the time then, it sort of comes difficult to accept that now. And I am answering despite the fact that you have made your response to me very personal and attacking.

Subject: 'Personal'? That's a joke From: Jim To: OK JIM Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 15:08:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You did indeed direct your first post to me, read it again. And you now completely avoid whatever I've said about the inherent wrongness of your violating the forum rules, few as they are, like this. I have to laugh, though, at your whining about me being too 'personal' with you. That was a joke, right?

Subject: Re: 'Personal'? That's a joke From: me again To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:43:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Big bad Jim and the other blokes ... seems to be the reality of what I said, you because you want to lead from the front, and the other blokes because I was talking about all guys who were posting in the same vein. Now I cannot see how this was aimed directly at you because it wasn't. I'm can't be bothered to discuss the semantics anymore you want to understand what you want to understand and that's fine if thats what you want to do. But I never meant it to be taken in such a heavy way. So it's better I say no more because I will never ever ever be able to feel that my viewpoint will be seen by you, not even accepted, by you, I'm not asking for that, but to be heard. That is all. I don't expect you to agree. That was the whole point of this, I just want people to be heard, not dismissed categorically out of hand. Wishing you well M

Subject: Oh shut up already From: Jim To: me again Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:56:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quit snivelling already. This forum has rules, they're not good enough for you. You're special becuase you've got that right amount of creativity that lets you feel the pain or whatever ..... boring!

Subject: There is no honour in what you' From: Jim To: Justin Other Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:44:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Your forum should enforce SOME individuality rule [nt] From: here's a better idea To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 00:16:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'm open to suggestion From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:00:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can we enforce identity rules? I wasn't able to install the new software I have which does what you are saying here. I could try again, though. It does seem unfair to you though, this type of post. Hey, maybe it's Ned Kelley! :)

Subject: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:04:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ger, Maybe someone can help you figure out how to install it, etc. What's it all about anyway? Can you describe it better, show us, something? I'm not the one but I'm sure someone here's up on this stuff.

Subject: Re: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's easy enough to check who it is by the IP# but it's time-consuming and boring unless something really bad is happening. I did my stint being forum sleuth to protect someone who shall be nameless from trolls and it was exhausting. Well, of course I was dumb enough to fall for the game - they wanted me to run around sleuthing - both sides I mean. If you or anyone who is being insulted anonymously feels that it's essential to know who it is, just ask and I'll tell but not now - I'm ready for bed. Richard 2 is, as I've said before, Turner's new incarnation.

Subject: Re: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:28:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a program from Anyboard.com The software was great, with over a quarter million users out there and very refined. Then I purchased server space from these turkeys in NY somewhere to host it and got ziltch help from them. A couple of nice folks here tried to help me but we basically got nowhere. AnyBoard is a powerful forum software with following main features: 1)Post by email. User can post by emailing to a mail box, AnyBoard will retrieve the mail along with attachments and post it into the forum. This feature along with email notifications allows a user to interact with the forum by email alone. (2)Personalize the boards to fit your site design. You choose threaded or non-threaded, aligned or non-aligned formats, inlined or linked pages, framed or single page for the forum, you set different fonts, colors, labels, image icons. You can abitrarily layout the message page. High performance, handle millions of page views per day. 3) Ultra stability. Many sites have run AnyBoard for years without any problem. Smart and strong anti-abuse capabilities let you sleep well at night or on vacation. 4) Complete customization on security levels. Fully featured user type management allows you to control user access individually. 5) integrated file upload (post message and attach files of any type in one submit), auto thumbnail creation for uploaded images 6) private discussions, instant private message alert for recipient. 7) poll creation and management, including mutliple-choice polls. Detect duplicated votes by IP, username, and cookie. 8) rolling news feature. Put selected posts into rolling news linked directly to the message or the board. 9) event scheduling and sign up 10) link submission. also allow user to delete their links 11) chat room, with emoticons message editing. 12) close/open thread. collapse/expand sub-thread rating. Auto-hide low rate messages 13) email validation/notification email alerts to admin. prevent duplicate alerts. tell a friend via email. a feature can be used for the whole site 14) selective moderation. Allow by-passing moderation by user type. extended member profiles unlimited message categories 15) form mail and file upload generic multi-site search engine (go to http://netbula.com for demo) spell checker for major western languages. 16) Tag transformation allows one to enter a symbol to be substituted with html code, such as an image. generate and email vcards from member profiles. 17) Track who's online and their activity in realtime. 18) Site management. Create recursive categories of forums. The problem was with the server not the software, so maybe it's time to try again. I just got very frustrated the last time.

Subject: Re: You guys, honestly!!! From: OTS To: justanotherdumbbroad Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 09:51:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I win the bet. I says to my wife last night: Just wait for those Brits to wake up and read this in the mroning! I bet they'll slice me into cheese cubes. Winner gets a free ticket to Ron Geaves' next Utah seminar. All expenses paid! Let me channel this as clearly as I can. To me, all New Agey stuff is new agey shite no matter the wrapping or warpping. It's some people's pleasure, others' useless pain. Sure, I CAN listen. I skimmed the shit. BUT CAN'T I COMMENT THAT in my humble opinion IT'S ALL CHANNELED CRAP? I think I can here. Why not? I'm glad you stated your opnion that it's not. I stop no one from forming their own opinion about this stuff. I stop no one from posting or reading anything. That's ridiculous. In fact, in discussing with my wife last night the fact that I've been a bad boy again on F7, she then read Janet's post AND GOT SOMETHING OUT OF IT. She's having about, oh 36 or 37 or so of the symptoms lately and can't get a handle on it. She's really feeling a change since she exited less than three months ago. And some of the changes are stupidly manifesting in weird shit. So, thanks, Janet, for assisting my wife. However, I was just dumbfounded that more people haven't sent in 1,000 word essays in response. P.S. Thank God, I'm still not Jim today. Though I may channel him in the next life. Yeah, sure.... Namaste, sisters. To you fellow bullies. BOOOOOOO

Subject: Re: You guys, honestly!!! From: Konni To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:50:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can't help myself... (imagine icon of smiley winking face - 'cos I don't know how it's done) ... maybe the wife is manifesting a realisation that there's something 'blokey' about 'blokes' and their responses to such stuff. Despite the length of the post, it had some interesting and worthwhile angles.

Subject: Thanks From: OTS To: Konni Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 17:53:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Konni. Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your take. The wife ain't on my case, however. But I'm glad you're feeling fine and unable to stop from participating here. Good news. Again, the worthwhileness was for the mrs. -- not me. Welcome to you

Subject: STAND BACK, EVERYBODY [nt] From: OTS To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:32:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I said 'you'. please permit others in now. From: i didn't say 'everybody', OTS-- To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:52:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that makes twice, you've tried to shoot it down before people who might find it useful can read it. there is not a uniform code of experience and Groupspeak here. trying to suffocate others from reading a post or speaking honestly what has happened to them is more of the same cult mentality we walked away from in order to come here. you've had your turn, now step back and see what others say. Or is there some reason why you feel you need to dominate this thread and try to keep others from reading and replying in it??? does something in it scare you? janet, the original poster of the topic.

Subject: You [nt] From: OTS To: i didn't say 'everybody', OTS-- Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:55:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I've been a little weepy lately... From: gerry To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:50:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ever since I was blocked from reading or writing on Life's Grate, that is. I guess they didn't like my recipe for a hearty winter's soup...

Subject: what's the recipe, ger? From: oooh soup! To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: stop crying and tell me. I'm really into soup lately! janet, being for real

Subject: Well, it's more of an infusion, I guess From: gerry To: oooh soup! Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:10:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: janet, you might not like this soup. It was for cult members only! I know, I'm awful... Soup does sound good though. It's a blustery and cold first day of spring here in Grays Harbor county.

Subject: SOUP??? Did somebody say SOUP??? From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:07:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q 'What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup?' A 'Anyone can roast beef.' The cannibal wiped his mouth daintily and said, 'My wife makes great soup. But I'll miss her.' When their little boy wouldn't speak, mom and dad took him to the doctor, who was also baffled. Finally one day the boy said, 'My soup is too cold.' His parents were ecstatic. 'Why haven't you spoken to us up to now?' 'Because the soup was never too cold before.' A guy sat down in a restaurant and ordered a bowl of bean soup. 'I'm sorry,' the waitress said, 'but the customer next to you had the last bowl.' The guy could see that the other customer had left most of the soup. 'Could I have that?' he asked. 'Sure.' So he started eating--but halfway down he discovered a dead mouse. 'Ugh,' he said, 'I just found a dead mouse in the soup.' 'That's as far as I got too,' said the other man.' soup, soup, nothing but stuff about soup www.soupsong.com/index.html

Subject: Maharaji on Women From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:28:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last week was 'International Womens' Day' and in honor of that, below is Maharaji, who now says he never claimed to be God, on 'women.' This is from Maharaji's satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' given in Johannesburg, 3rd May, 1972: 'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.' There you have it, in celebration of International Womens Day. Maharaji says he is God, God came through a woman, and because He came through a woman, He comes in the form of a man, to 'equalise.' Isn't that special and just so....fair and equal? Hey, that makes sense And I'm sure there was a MAHATMA standing over Maharaji just FORCING him to spew those 'concepts.' As Maharaji pontificates in the Atlanta Training video, it was all the Mahatmas who spewed these kinds of concepts, and poor Maharaji in a manner he finds "pathetic" is still having to clean up the mess. Do you think it might have been Fakiranand holding a hammer under his dohti?

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: Gail To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 02:59:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He revised that about ten years ago. 'There have been women perfect hamsters, doncha know!'

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:09:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What happened to my message above?-nt From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:14:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What happened to my message above?-nt From: PatC To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:51:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you out it in the QUOTED MESSAGE field in error. It's happened to me before.

Subject: Uncle PremPal on women - reprise From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:15:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ((((((((((( ring-g-g-g-g ))))))))))) ***pick up*** 'Hello?' 'Hi, honey, this is Daddy.... is your Mommy near the phone?' 'No, Daddy, she's upstairs in the bedroom with Uncle PremPal,' After a brief pause Daddy says 'But you haven't got an Uncle PremPal, honey!' 'Oh yes I do, and he's upstairs in the bedroom with Mommy right now!' 'Uh, okay, then......here's what I want you do. Put down the phone, run upstairs and knock on the bedroom door and shout to Mommy and Uncle PremPal that Daddy's car's just pulled up outside the house.' 'Okay, Daddy!' A few minutes later the little girl comes back to the phone. 'Well, I did what you said, Daddy.' 'And what happened?' he asks. 'Well, Mommy got all scared, jumped out of bed with no clothes on and ran around screaming, then she tripped over the rug and went flying out the front window and now she's all dead.' 'Oh my God!!!!! And what about your Uncle PremPal?' 'He jumped out of bed with no clothes on too and he was all scared and he jumped out the back window into the swimming pool.....but he must have forgot that last week you took out all the water to clean it, so he hit the bottom of the swimming pool and now he's all real dead too.' ***long pause*** Daddy says, 'Swimming pool? Is this 555-7039?'

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:07:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll play devil's advocate for Rawat. Remember, Joe, he was talking to an audience in Jo'burg where 99% of the premies are Indian. He was just trying to make the women feel wanted in a culture in which they are second class citizens. And none of them were blondes - just brown baby-making machines.

Subject: Second Class Citizens From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This satsang was put into the 'Guru Puja' Book, or whatever it was called, bound, and sold at Festivals all over the West for a number of years after he said it. So, Maharaji approved wide dissemination of what he said there. On the other hand, maybe it only applies to Indian woman and not Western women.

Subject: Re: Second Class Citizens From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:09:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you know as well as I that one of Rawat's biggest failings is that he seldom looks at the longterm consequences of his words. He thinks he can just rewrite history. And we swallowed all his Hindu sexism in those days blithely because he was god.

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: bolly shri To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:05:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what about transexuals? bolly shri

Subject: Selling the K chairs? What chairs? From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:50:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A premie friend of mine sent me this: Subj: Knowledge chairs Date: 3/14/2002 1:29:36 PM Eastern Standard Time From:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net The Knowledge chairs have become available for sale to the community. The chairs will be available to be seen this Sunday, March 17, at 1965 Opa Locka Blvd., North Miami, FL between 12 noon and 2 pm. The price is $100.

Subject: THE charis From: Seat Cushion To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:58:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These, my friend, are the chairs upon which aspirants sat to receive the K from M in person. These wing-backed off-white specially made chairs (numbering about 150-200, I believe) were manufactured in the 90's to be used during the Knowledge sessions. They were individually boxed and kept in a warehouse, the address of which is in your notice.

Subject: Re: THE charis From: anti macassers To: Seat Cushion Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:13:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: will my bum absorb enlightenment if I sit on one? will I be absorbed into nirvana? are they worth $100 thats a lot for an old chair with unless it has a lifetime darshan guarantee. How do you spell anti macasas? Love to all

Subject: Selling off holy relics From: Richard To: Seat Cushion Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:58:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now I know I should have kept M's Kissimmee straw hat I picked up at Raja Ji's garage sale in Miami Beach. Even though a house guest sat on it and crushed it, I'm certain it would have netted a fat retirement nest egg. Richard aka Richard

Subject: Re: Selling off holy relics From: bolly shri To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:19:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a fragment of one of mata jis saris somewhere, what am I bid for this peice of silk worn by the then mother of god? It's. from the free for all at Reigate in the mid seventies when she left for India with the other satguru bolly shri

Subject: Anybody want the Lard's Sweater? From: Gail To: bolly shri Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:03:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bidding opens at $500.

Subject: Re: Anybody want the Lard's Sweater? From: Crispy To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:04:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi ya' Gail! How 'bout a trade: I still have an empty flask of perfume he supposedly wore (?!) (according to SS) ;) Chris Rotten Trade

Subject: Flea Bay From: Francesca To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:42:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, Flea Bay, the flea market for all devotional knick knacks. I have a piece of one of his hairs, given to me by Anne Johnson. It's on a little card she made that says 'A gift from your Lord.' It was so sweet of her. We were all crazy. --f

Subject: Geez, Francesca, we could clone the Lard! From: Gail To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! How old is the hair. We could replicate him before he became so corrupt and reprogram him to set the PWICKS free!

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: cq To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: has it got any fleas on it? (if the hair sells, just think what I could do with the fleas' offspring) oops. just given away another money-spinner.

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: Crsipy To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:26:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cq, I think she was referring to flea MARKET (Francesca ? - if I read you right) - a sort of 'premie flea market for trading used trash-treasure'.... besides, LICE would be found in hair... And having survived kitchen service training once with Anne Johnson, I can just bet she would have lye-soaped that strand of hair thrice over to get rid of its fat lice! ....but what about all his fat LIES? I'll be lye-soaping those out of my life for years.....

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: Francesca To: Crsipy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 01:06:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, kind of a car crash (er, plane crash?, er yacht crash?) between a premie flea market and eBay. Lord of the fat lies. Also known as Lord of the f-lies! I'd better stop! --f

Subject: 'scuse my dyslexic fingers! (nt) From: that's CRISPY To: Crsipy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Other SatGuru? From: Opie To: bolly shri Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 18:10:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....left for India with the other satguru What, where?! other Satguru? I thought there could only be one at any one time. Sheesh ya gotta be joking? Oh I see PremPal - SatPal, all oneness, merged in brotherly love. That's ok then. :)

Subject: What is the Knowledge? From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:24:22 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Having narrowly survived a terrifying rocket attack by the forces of evil on last Saturday’s local ex-premie dinner, I’m of a mind to contemplate, and try to comprehend, a subject which profoundly pre-occupied me for my entire adult life: the experience of Knowledge. (Just joking about the rocket attack: I actually went to bed chuckling about it.) I was talking to a premie last night about this “experience of Knowledge”. She reminded me that there is such a thing: over the last 18 months I’ve forgotten Knowledge as a discrete entity, and have assimilated the nice feelings I once associated with it into everyday consciousness. A little more specifically, the extreme highs associated with meditation, events, etc have become a thing of the past. I’m glad about this, as they always brought more than their fair share of accompanying lows - to say nothing of having these “lows” magnified by the feeling that one is “not in that place”. This in turn brought guilt, lowered self-esteem, and in time the kind of emotional flattening that (dare I say it?) I see in many premies. (Lesley, my new guru, eloquently describes it as “flatling on Mr Rawat’s meditation”, or words to that effect.) Anyway, I think few people here would argue that there is such an experience as “Knowledge”, tho I’d guess that most no longer attribute it to anything metaphysical, let alone to the grace of Guru Maharaji - the King Farouk of contemporary cult leaders. So what is it then? I posted an article on “neurotheology” here a while back, which reinforced my view that “Knowledge” is more or less the same - no doubt there are differences of detail - as all techniques which calm the central nervous system. In recent times I have experienced “Knowledge” during a relaxation technique taught to me by my doctor, during times of particularly lucid communication with others about deep subjects, during walks on the beach in the sunshine, when trying out a yoga meditation that a holistic healer suggested to me, and - strangely enough - when drinking beer recently with an instructor friend. (He’s a charismatic guy, but I don’t think it was a darshan experience (-: ) (Others have had apparently the same experiences from brushes with death, starvation, high altitudes, etc.) Anyway, despite the fact that there were four very different techniques, and many separate effects on my psyche, Maharaji had somehow always convinced me that Knowledge was “one thing”. I guess one’s brain goes into neutral when one is a confused 20-year-old who knows nothing about projection, and when you take on a master who seems to have an answer for everything, and who fits in with all the eastern ideas you absorbed in the hippie era, and who trades heavily on the significant psychic energy projected at him from an audience - but that’s another story. I’m not a fanatic for the rational mind - we surely have vastly more to us than that - but I have learned after extricating myself from the psychic malaise and cultural drek of Prem-world that the rational mind is something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you could lose yourself - just as surely as you can lose yourself by ignoring the needs of your emotional self or your body. (I’m not saying these are separate systems, BTW. The emotions permeate the body via peptide networks, the ‘rational’ and ‘emotional’ aspects of the brain are endlessly interconnected, etcetera.) So, what my new friend the rational mind has helped me to see since abandoning M’s apparently sinking ship is that Knowledge is not, after all, “one experience” - but several, with each of these experiences being accorded more or less “volume” depending on circumstance, modality (meditation, satsang, service, darshan), meditation technique (1, 2, 3, 4) and probably dozens of other things, like time of day and maybe even digestion. So far as I can discern, the “experience of Knowledge” - that is to say, the brain activity, or sometimes lowered activity, induced by the four techniques, sitting in videos, attending events, et al - and more subtle things such as having faith and becoming receptive to the idea of devotion - is actually a number of experiences. So far I’ve been able to identify six: 1. Calm, peace, reduced anxiety and fear 2. Euphoria, bliss, joy 3. Feeling in the sway of a superior power 4. Reduced concern about time 5. A reduced feeling of separation between myself and others, or the world 6. A sharpened consciousness: increased “focus”. Bearing in mind that I’m not wedded to this breakdown, but am putting it out as a kind of draft proposal to get feedback, I’d describe these six attributes as the things that go to make up “the experience of Knowledge”. (And probably the experience deriving from most other central nervous system-calming approaches.) (I hasten to add that whilst the above does derive from my own experience, most of it has been written up by neurologists et al. I.e. I’ve plundered a lot of other people’s ideas in this “neurotheology” area.) There seem to me to also be sub-attributes to the above six experiences, such as: ineffability (it being beyond words) a deep “knowing” or certainty transiency - it comes and goes acceptance love (of self, others, guru) [and more] To me, the sub-attributes on the second list are secondary: they derive from the first. For example you feel an “inner certainty” because the experiences of timelessness and/or euphoria (etc) are so undeniably real to you. I don’t know whether there is a God of any description who plays a role in all this - I might have to be God to know that. But what I am increasingly confident about is that these six primary attributes of “Knowledge” derive from very specific brain activities, which are mediated by meditation and other Knowledge modalities: 1. Calmness and reduced anxiety appear to be related to inhibition of the amygdala (part of the cerebellum) and its projection pathways. 2. Bliss, I’m guessing, will derive from good old-fashioned serotonin release. 3. Presence of a superior power: If you apply the right electrical frequency to the temporal lobes, you can induce the “sensed presence” which people interpret as grace, or God’s presence. (Subjects even do this in a lab wearing a hat full of magnets and electrodes, and having been forewarned of the effect - so you can imagine how easy it is to believe in this “sensed presence” when it is engendered by meditation in a darkened room, after you’ve been inculcated with ideas about the Truth within, as revealed by your friendly local incarnation of God.) This “presence” is achieved (scientists think) when the left temporal lobe - where our sense of “self” is chiefly housed - becomes “separated” from the right. The left thus perceives the right as a separate entity - but still something within us: thus the “sensed presence” phenomenon - which we as premies called God. This science is getting so good now that researchers can statistically “predict”, from his brain patterns, a subject’s past history with paranormal experiences, as distinguished from God experiences, as distinguished from neither type of experience. 4. The sense of timelessness is believed to arrive when the brain’s “orientation association area”, which calibrates time, is derived of data (as it is in meditation). 5. Reduced separation of oneself from world: In SPECT imaging analysis of meditators, their superior parietal lobes darkened (i.e. quietened right down). This lobe is responsible for handling information about the body’s orientation in space. Deprived of data, this region will ultimately delete the ability to separate one’s body from the rest of the universe - a sense of infinite space. 6. Sharpened focus: In SPECT imaging, the brain’s prefrontal cortex - the “seat of attention” - lights up during meditation. (The above explanations are a bit simplistic: there are overlaps I haven’t mentioned, and doubtless many things which haven’t yet been discovered.) Anyway, does anyone else agree that “Knowledge” is not one phenomenon but several? Should the experience of seeing light be added to the “primary” list? What about the tunnels and divine beings of near death experiences? (Traceable to the Sylvian fissure in the right temporal lobe, BTW. I know two premies who have died on operating tables and talked to Maharaji about whether to “go or stay”.) Visions of Maharaji or the Holy Family? (Some premies had them, in the 1970s at least.) Finally, given that these experiences are so ubiquitous through human history - and if today’s hunter-gatherers are any guide, they go way back beyond history - what purpose do they serve? When I say purpose I mean evolutionary purpose. Perhaps the leading researcher into the “God-in-the-brain” field is Dr Michael Persinger, who says: “The God Experience has had survival value. It has allowed the human species to live through famine, pestilence, and untold horrors. When temporal lobe transients [a phenomenon underlying some of the above] occurred, men and women who might have sunk into a schizophrenic stupor continued to build, plan, and hope.” I find that fairly persuasive - tho I admittedly don’t really know whether the God experience is yet in the DNA. The ancestors of a few of us (25%?) mutated an enzyme to digest milk in less than 6000 years - so it may be possible. (The earliest evidence of religion I can find is a sacrificial altar 3-400,000 years old.) On the other hand the psycho-neuro complex of experiences we call “God” is probably much more - well, complex - than milk. The first human tools were made a staggering 2.6 million years ago, by Homo habilis (“Handy Man”). With them must have been created the conceptual nexus been creator (tool-maker) and creation (tool). The natural world surrounding Homo habilis must have seemed an endless source of marvel, as the frontal cortex expanded, thus expanding his ability to aesthetically appreciate, intellectually understand and physically control that world. IMO it may have been a short conceptual jump from “I make tools” to “Something big and powerful made me, and all this.” From “I can appreciate, understand and control my world” to “Someone appreciates, understands and controls me”. So I wouldn’t be too surprised if one day we get archaeological evidence suggesting that God goes back a million years or more: if so, amply long enough for him to have entered the genome. (Of course there would have been large differences in God-susceptibility between individuals, just as experiments today yield wide variations in emotional response to religious images and suggestions between individuals.) For a moment, let’s assume it’s true that the spiritual impulse is encoded in our hardwiring. That’s bad news for anyone who wants to get a friend or relative out of Maharaji’s or any other cult, for obvious reasons: to a reasonable extent we’d be fighting entrenched nature rather than overlaid conditioning. Indeed it may well explain the apparent stupidity of even highly intelligent premies - and there are many - in resisting common sense and the evidence of their senses with logical dead-ends, teleological loops and magical thinking. (You should see some of the emails I get.) Anyway, I went off on a loop of my own there. Let’s return to the question of the “God” installed by evolution - and finish by looking at what has happened to it. We might infer from modern hunter-gatherers that this earlier God was less hierarchically inclined, and was less often manipulated in the causes of human greed and power, than today’s God. So what departure from evolutionary lifeways allowed him to be hijacked by individuals and institutions - from Sumerian priests to the fourth century Catholic Church, right through to (tin drumroll, scattered applause, party whistles) his holiness Shri Guru Maharaji - for the purposes of personal power and gain? Was it the agricultural revolution, whose more concentrated, less mobile populations had to be welded together and controlled more tightly than did nomadic tribes - by authoritarian structures? What better authority, and authoritarian, than God? Are monotheism, and religious oppression - and of course the serfdom they enabled - the result of the agricultural revolution? Are Maharaji, and the $A100 million in resources he has accumulated for himself - that is, deprived his serfs of - the end result of the domestication of rye? That’s my answer, but I’m open to argument. Regards, John

Subject: WOW!!! A ***BEST OF FORUM*** nomination? [nt] From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:20:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: bill To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:31:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Thank you for your great posts that I have sent to others. You cover so much terrain in your post but on re-rereading, what occurs to me is that your lifelong identification with m and this so called 'knowledge', effects your take on normalcy. You said: ''In recent times I have experienced “Knowledge” during a relaxation technique taught to me by my doctor, during times of particularly lucid communication with others about deep subjects, during walks on the beach in the sunshine, when trying out a yoga meditation that a holistic healer suggested to me, and - strangely enough - when drinking beer recently with an instructor friend. (He’s a charismatic guy, but I don’t think it was a darshan experience (-: ) (Others have had apparently the same experiences from brushes with death, starvation, high altitudes, etc.)'' Just regular folks that look pretty beat walking past us in the local Mall have also had many elevated experiences that were unconnected with any concept of knowledge and didnt require extreme activities to trigger. We of course figured we were on to more than the average bear would experience in thier day to day, but I have been humbled into seeing that well, no, I was just stupid, and regular folks had me beat in just about, well ALL catagories. The 6 pillars of the light of rawat, Were trumped by the worldly idiots in thousands of ways. Although I would diss thier experiences as mundane, and hardly reflective of enlightenment or capable of enjoying life as it is MEANT to be enjoyed. ''1. Calm, peace, reduced anxiety and fear-- Increased anxiety because no 'that place' was attained once again during time spent 'inside'. Fear that No completion was happening and 'this life' was being wasted and the masters carrot was always too far away and unintelligible. No peace because the foundation of my self perception was tied to Nothing except a 'vibe' that was 'IT' but didnt offer anything. 2. Euphoria, bliss, joy The 'euphoria' had all the same attributes of any person around me gushing about thier favorite rock musician, (dead heads) ect, people who just saw a celebrity (even a local politician) or people that I saw shake hands with a rich person and get all effected, people that see a baby, ect ect ect. 3. Feeling in the sway of a superior power Folks watching tv! Women responding to thier dominating husbands, Husbands responding to thier dominating wives, people at work ! all the religious folks, 4. Reduced concern about time prison can help provide that ! Also, friday afternoon and the paycheck is in your hand, It is 5 minutes after work.. someone is working on your privates ! 5. A reduced feeling of separation between myself and others, or the world THAT one came perhaps because m gave us such a seperation in the first place, and you were young when you got hooked, and so you didnt have the normal adjustments to the world around you that other kids worked out in thier twenties. Joining any group, even a group at the bar would have provided the same comraderie or even way better. 6. A sharpened consciousness: increased “focus”.'' It is only because of the lifetime involvement with the cult that would make you say such an arrogant thing, I know you were trying to just comment on results of meditation, but ''INTEREST'' in any subject or activity automatically increases our concentration. OR even the threat of consequence will sharpen our focus, say, you just were told your writing work of late was lacking and your boss suggested you were on thin ice and better shape up. Automatic sharpening of focus ! And without any cult related help ! Wringing the cult out of us takes time.

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: Dep =) To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:01:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I’m not a fanatic for the rational mind - we surely have vastly more to us than that - but I have learned after extricating myself from the psychic malaise and cultural drek of Prem-world that the rational mind is something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you could lose yourself - just as surely as you can lose yourself by ignoring the needs of your emotional self or your body. Agreed John, The rational mind is definitely useful, something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you lose an important part of yourself. IMO, however, to be happy, we must recognize the limitations of mind and learn to live with contradiction and paradox. The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. The child is father of the man.

Subject: Not true, Dog From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 20:33:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. I know that you never read anything beside old, new agey garbage but, if you did, you might want to expose yourself to some of the advances in brain science of the last decade or so. We're getting there, Dog, slowly but surely. We understand sooooooo much more about moods and emotions than before. That's why we can regulate disorders and imbalances better. And as for the deeper questions about love and happiness, we're learning much about that too, in a scientific sense. It's funny to hear you go on and on about the limitations of the 'intellect'. You're in the dark by your own choosing.

Subject: Re: So true, Dog From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 23:06:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez, here we go again. I say the intellect has limitations and you go ballistic. IMO we are more than just our rational mind. But hey, if you want to spend the rest of your life shackled to logic, go right ahead. To me, that's like living in one room of your house. Why limit yourself? Throwing out heart and living in only in mind is just as bad as throwing out mind and living only in heart. Both are half-assed? Use both mind and spirit, logic and intuition! The Egyptian pharaohs thought they had it all figured out so did the Romans so did the Incas etc. They didn't. We are creatures not the creator. We will never figure this trip out. The planet has been here for what, billions of years. We've been here as a species for about 200,000 years, and we've had science and technology for about 200 years. And we have the arrogance to think we can figure it all out! That kind of arrogance makes me want to puke in my soup. And what makes you think we are equipped to figure everything out? A bee sees 200 skys and we see only one sky. Maybe we are physically incapable of figuring it all out. I like you to figure out logically why you fell in love with Laurie. And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? No thanks! I’ll use both logic and intuition. I’ll use both mind and spirit. The mind is a good servant but a lousy master.

Subject: Wow, Dog, how astute From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:39:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? Main Entry: New Age Function: adjective Date: 1956 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for nature, spirituality, and metaphysics Get it?

Subject: Re: Wow, Dog, how astute From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:04:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? Main Entry: New Age Function: adjective Date: 1956 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for nature, spirituality, and metaphysics Get it? --- Wow, 2600 years! That's a long time.

Subject: Here, from today's National Post From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:00:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an article from today's National Post as just one of millions of examples of how we're learning about the brain things we never dreamed of. Don't get hung up in the specific, arguably trivial aspect of this. Think of the implications. And ask yourself if there's a single book on your bookshelf that even begins to touch on this process of inquiry and learning. My guess -- there isn't. I bet all you've got is Shakti Gawain (sorry, Dog, don't know where she came from. Somewhere in my right parietal cortex, I guess. But you get the idea.) Grocery bill too high? Blame right parietal cortex Roger Highfield The Daily Telegraph LONDON - Scientists think they have figured out what goes on in the brain when a shopper browsing in a supermarket decides to buy something. The mind's 'shopping centre' -- the part that becomes active when a customer selects one brand of ketchup, cola or whatever in preference to another -- has been pinpointed in the right parietal cortex, a region of the brain just above and at the back of the right ear. This finding could push back the frontiers of consumer science. Researchers speculate they could reveal the brain processes that control more important choices people make, such as spouse, house and career, quite apart from helping to shape advertising and marketing strategies. In the not-too-distant future, manufacturers of cereals, soft drinks and ketchup could be screening their customers' brains, as well as consulting conventional consumer and taste panels, to discover why one brand sells better than another. The study will be published in the journal Neural Plasticity. The researchers measured electrical activity in the heads of shoppers browsing in a virtual copy of a supermarket. They found that when a choice is made there is a crackle of activity in the right parietal cortex. This brain region seems to reveal 'brand equity,' the worth of a product. Researchers are now studying whether this region is bigger and more active in women than in men or compulsive shoppers. A team from the Open University and London Business School relied on a technique called magnetoencephalography (MEG) to measure brain activity in four men and four women during the second or so it takes for a person to select a product. The MEG scanner looks like a glorified professional hair dryer and is too bulky to be portable. Instead, the shoppers went on a virtual tour of the supermarket and, as the scanner watched what was going on in their heads, they were invited to choose between different brands by pressing a button. The team found the brain was hugely active during the 2 1/2 seconds it took for the button to be pressed, revealing a flow of activity, starting at the back of the brain and moving to the front. 'Within 80 milliseconds the visual cortex, where information from the eye is processed, responds as we perceive the choice items,' said Professor Steven Rose, one of the team's leaders. 'A little later, regions of the brain associated with memory and speech become active, when we begin to interpret the image and vocalize it silently -- saying the name of the brand in our heads -- especially if we don't have a strong preference. 'Finally, after about 800 milli-seconds -- and this was the surprising thing -- if and only if they really do prefer one of the choice items then a region called the right parietal cortex becomes active. This lights up if and only if you actually do prefer Coke to Pepsi or Pepsi to Coke.' The right parietal cortex is the region of the brain involved in making conscious decisions -- 'in this experiment about shopping choices, but maybe for more important life choices too,' he added, listing holiday destinations and choice of mate as examples. MEG uses an array of 344 devices known as SQUIDs (superconducting quantum interference devices) that work at very low temperatures -- they are actually bathed in liquid helium -- to measure minute fluctuations in the magnetic fields that dance around inside a living brain.

Subject: Forget about this is your brain on God . . . From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:36:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is your brain on a shopping spree. Of course! Here we were looking for God in the frontal lobes and meanwhile marketing and adverstising executives have already mapped out the right parietal cortex to help them sell more Coca Cola. Can a bar-code implanted in our forehead to tell us where God is, who we are and most importantly, what to buy, be that far off?

Subject: We men are screwed... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:14:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another tidbit from similiar research shows that when a man sees a pretty face, the same regions of the brain light up as are stimulated by a hit of cocaine.

Subject: Cherished experiences From: PatD To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:20:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. The intellect knows they exist & has even put names to them in order to distinguish them from ...say,hate & fear which also exist of course. I'd suggest to you that if you want to deepen your understanding of what makes human beings tick,that you abandon 1st off all the mental detritus that goes with Rawatworld. The principal assumption to dump is the notion that it is in some way possible to plug yourself into the mains & have God blow up your brain,whereupon you will really understand all there is. You ever read the story about the guy who passengers on a broken down train spotted fucking a goat..well the case came to trial last week or so,& the judge doubted that anyone could get to the bottom of his motivation. So there's another conundrum you can add to the list.

Subject: Rawat is a prostitute From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:41:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very interesting for all sorts of reasons,but doesn't I feel get to the bottom of Rawat's con. Or indeed really explain the religious instinct: the 2 things are joined at the hip. I came across this quote the other day,it's from a book Some Dogma's of Religion(McTaggart) which I haven't read but intend to. ''a conviction of harmony between ourselves & the universe at large'' is the definition of the religious instinct. The 'at large' is the thing that struck me because in Rawatworld the universe is within. 'at large' also implies a connection that can only be made through the intellect,so philosophy,theology,science,all things which were denigrated in his world, are important to understanding even though it's through a glass darkly. I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious'to begin with. His con is to offer a physical explanation to the question 'why'. Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to. Power without responsiblity is the prerogative of the harlot down the ages. That's what Rawat's K is really all about. ps. you ever read Guns,Germs & Steel, explains why you guys don't get on with the abo's.(joke)

Subject: Re: Rawat is a prostitute From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:59:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious' to begin with.'' That's my take on it too. I know I'm a moralist and not very consumerist. If Rawat had been a basically decent person and not the greedy sleaze that he is, I may still be in the cult because I enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. I might have continued to forgive him all his neo-Hindu New Age nonsense if he'd been mensch. No, I couldn't stand the master crap most of all.

Subject: Re: Rawat is a prostitute From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 23:15:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious' to begin with.'' That's my take on it too. I know I'm a moralist and not very consumerist. If Rawat had been a basically decent person and not the greedy sleaze that he is, I may still be in the cult because I enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. I might have continued to forgive him all his neo-Hindu New Age nonsense if he'd been mensch. No, I couldn't stand the master crap most of all. --- PatC, My sentiments entirely. I too enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. But M was a little too much. I read somewhere that people who attend religious services live an average of seven years longer than those who don't. So this type of community has health benefits too.

Subject: community has health benefits too From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:46:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, Here in San Francisco people form their own weird and wonderful communities. It's the most community-minded place I've ever lived. I guess that's why most premies left ages ago and went back to the communities that suited them best - gay, artsy, activist, spiritual etc. Yes, Rev Rawat is definitely not community-minded. He was always in it for himself only. I like reading history more than anything and every leader seems to have been deeply flawed including Gandhi and King and obviously Napoleon, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and the current crop of Muslim Madass Insanes. Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: Guns, Germs and Steel From: Jim To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:10:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I got a couple of chapters in and got distracted. Should I get back in and swim to the other side? It was really quite interesting, most of what I read. In fact, I think I will. Okay, never mind. Nice talking with you, I'm sure. :)

Subject: Thanks, John. Lots of food for thought From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:15:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You concluded: ''Was it the agricultural revolution, whose more concentrated, less mobile populations had to be welded together and controlled more tightly than did nomadic tribes - by authoritarian structures? What better authority, and authoritarian, than God? ''Are monotheism, and religious oppression - and of course the serfdom they enabled - the result of the agricultural revolution? Are Maharaji, and the $A100 million in resources he has accumulated for himself - that is, deprived his serfs of - the end result of the domestication of rye?'' Maybe we should blame it on Gilgamesh. The ancient Sumerians were polytheistic. Certainly we know that cities, laws and contracts arose from agriculture - specifically from the need for cooperation in irrigation projects. Gilgamesh, like all the former kings of Uruk, was preordained to marry Inanna, the Queen of Heaven, after which he was destined to be chopped up and used as sacrificial ferttilizer. Well, Gilgamesh rebelled and, after many adventures, returned to Uruk to reign justly and wisely for the rest of his life thus establishing the first male-dominated kingdom. Till then the main ''deities'' had been Venus-like fertility goddesses to whom males were sacrificed. Of course it wasn't as neat and chronological as that but, after Gilgamesh, living male kings were regarded as the representatives of the deity on earth. (At the same time that this was happening in Mesopotamia, the Jews were evolving into monotheists too.) I thoroughly enjoyed your theories of brain-chemistry and am doing my own reading on entheogenic (god-awareness-inducing) drugs, devices and other triggers. Maybe K was many different separate experiences but we will never really know because I can't know what you felt and vice versa. The most important thing that you said for me was that you had integrated the good feelings that you formerly associated with K into your everyday life. Without all the Hindu guru mumbo-jumbo, feeling great, enjoying life and being happy is so much simpler and honest.

Subject: My new guru From: Lesley To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:51:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting post, John, I can see that you have also been engaged, as I have, in trying to understand what this god thing is all about. As your new guru, I must request, though, that you quote me right, the term is emotional flatlining, and no typos are tolerated! I am indebted to my new guru, Xena Warrior Princess, for a spirited and colourful telling of the story known as Hinduism. It was fascinating, and very helpful to have that particular story told back to me with such verve. After all, it is the story that Mr Rawat and his indian mahatmas grew up on, it is the story upon which the story they told us is based. Drawing a wider bow here, bear with me, just recently I saw someone interviewed on the telly, she had been nominated for an oscar and he was asking her how she felt about it. She said something along the lines of, I inhabit a place called Planet Oscar, which she described a bit, she also added it did not have a lot to do with the real world, and that it was temporary. I had to applaud her, that was a pretty impressive effort to assimilate what was happening to her, and retain a measured perspective on life, to avoid being swept away from her own commonsense on the tide of blissful feelings and new experiences, that somehow she knows are not safe to base her emotional security on. Do you not think it is possible, John, that these stories, with their devilish aspects as well as godly ones, are nothing more or less than our attempts to assimilate the, at the time, being such small children, overwhelming experience of learning what our parents were. I am suggesting this as an alternative to your idea that we might be genetically programmed to revere a mythical entity called God. Maybe just genetically favoured by our ability to sit at the feet of our parents! In other words, evolutionarily inevitable in that people who listened closely to their parents survived, and therefore procreated, more readily than those who didn't.

Subject: neuroKnowledge From: Gregg To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 13:14:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fascinating recapitulation of neurotheologic speculation as it applies to 'Knowledge.' (Funny, actually, the use of the K word to describe an ineffable experience...in a sense it's like the yearning of a lot of Hindus (esp. the Maharishi) and New Agers to be taken as seriously as scientists in their effort to describe the nature of reality.) Have you read Pascal Boyer's book 'Religion Explained?' (or, as his critics would have it, 'Religion explained away.') I found it fascinating and along the lines of your comments above. As someone who finds nothing more commonsensical than evolutionary pschology yet has more of a soft spot for mystical experience than most of these realist/materialist/scientist types, I have another theory about why we seem to be hardwired to yearn for those experiences. We all have pretty strong feelings of identity, mostly derived from identification with our name, our body and our memories. Some meditative disciplines deliberately undermine this identity mechanism, and i believe the resulting state can be one of alignment with our true potential. I even think one can become a better hunter and a better gatherer and a better dancer and a better mate once one becomes less selfish and more open in every sense of the word. Sure, there are some selfish and violent rulers of men who give 'Social Darwinism' a bad name. But, being social animals, those of us who are more efficient at creating a rich and nurturing social environment would have genetic advantages. And, John, I gotta agree that those things that make up the 'experience of Knowledge' can only get better and realer after leaving the Fraudulent One. Gregg

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: wolfie To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:37:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, puh, no argument, just roll another one and lets talk the night away. No honest, I don't know where you wanna go. We can rationalize everything, why we can digest milk and since when, why we like to dance and where and when we started to like it. That to love someone is brainchemestry based on whatever. This can be an intersting and sophisticated conversation. You will end up with the question when did the univers begin. The Big Bang. Why is a why a why and does not mean and, where all those names came from, there are explanations why we speak different languages, good intersting and maybe this can help me here and ther but it is completly useless to think about how the world would look like if the Big Bang would not had happend, anyway then it would not be possible to ask a question like this. I think we can and should anylyse what we have done in the time where we followed M and it is obvious that thinks still happend very individual. Why am I not completly crazy, or am I completly crazy and don't realize it. Can anybody give me the proof that I exist. Maybe that is acidphilosophy. But how humanevolution has been affected by acid, more in a destructive way or more emancipation. I don't know, my prespectives are changing. I would like to say that knowledge is the same for me it is based on that feeling how it feels for me when I'm aware of my breath this is the same in one way how it feels when I walk on my feet. This is what I can feel, but it feels differenet when my feets are cold but still I know that I can trust the ground I'm walking on. Nomands believed that they keep the earth moving by walking, funny to see ist like that. So far I know you are living in Aussiland, very intersting cultur the natives there. What does it need to understand and respect a complet different culture. How can I respect another culture that is based on magic when I deny any magic. Is there something holy we share all toghether. I mean yes and this is that we should respect the unknowing. We are nonknowing creatures and this we should celebrate, maybe this is more fun then to celebrate the knowing. Okay enough is enough....this is my wednesday 5 o'clock philosphy and I thank you very much for your wonderful post cause it left me completly unknowing where you wanna go. .......just roll another one......or do you have some good wine.....ciao........wolfie......to be or not to be????????????????

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: AV To: wolfie Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:11:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmm, story of guy who loves to go to the ball game, he really enjoys himself,he's quite happy, absorbed ,no problemo; then one day someone comes along and discovers the nodes in the brain that are stimulated by watching a ball game can be accessed by acupuncture points, and the only way they can be triggered is by a cattle prod up the left nostril....ball game? cattle prod? u decide ;~) (interesting article tho')

Subject: Responses From: John Macgregor To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:09:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley said: “Do you not think it is possible, John, that these stories, with their devilish aspects as well as godly ones, are nothing more or less than our attempts to assimilate the, at the time, being such small children, overwhelming experience of learning what our parents were. 'I am suggesting this as an alternative to your idea that we might be genetically programmed to revere a mythical entity called God. Maybe just genetically favoured by our ability to sit at the feet of our parents! 'In other words, evolutionarily inevitable in that people who listened closely to their parents survived, and therefore procreated, more readily than those who didn't.” Well, you don’t say which stories you are talking about. (I didn’t write anything about stories.) Assuming you might be referring to something like the God story in general, I think the answer to your question might be unknowable. Clearly we’re programmed to love our parents. Are we programmed to love God in addition to that - or merely as a by-product (perhaps a pathological variation) of parental love? I’m biased toward the idea that God is a separate bunch of code - tho no doubt reinforced by the parent-love code. Partly because the God experience feels somewhat different, from the inside, to the child experience. And partly because the God experience and the childhood experience can be parsed into innumerable elements, surely only a few of which will overlap. E.g. I mentioned six separate brain activities alone which help to make up the God experience, none of which have been identified with childhood so far as I know. And that still leaves devotion, faith, excitation of the CNS via over-stimulation (chanting, singing) and more. Joseph Campbell - who had as good a handle on the God of the psyche as anyone - talked about God’s “father aspect”. I’d guess that you are talking about that aspect - as being common to children and, say, premies. Insofar as that aspect goes I’d imagine you’re right. I just think there is quite a lot more to God than the father aspect, and this argues for separate coding to me. Pat D said: “That's very interesting for all sorts of reasons,but doesn't I feel get to the bottom of Rawat's con. Or indeed really explain the religious instinct: the 2 things are joined at the hip.” I wasn’t setting out to explain the Rawat con, Richard D. I was trying to understand what the experience of Knowledge is. I think the Rawat con revolved around the experience of Knowledge, but the experience was a discrete thing. “Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to.” Hmm, I’m afraid you lost me. I don’t think I tried to explain Rawat’s explanation for anything. I just looked at the experience of Knowledge, as we called it. I finished with a bit of a digression about the cultural origins of modern, exploitative (as opposed to tribal) religion. If that’s the explanation you’re disagreeing with, please give your reasons. Gregg said: “As someone who finds nothing more commonsensical than evolutionary psychology yet has more of a soft spot for mystical experience than most of these realist/materialist/scientist types, I have another theory about why we seem to be hardwired to yearn for those experiences. “We all have pretty strong feelings of identity, mostly derived from identification with our name, our body and our memories. Some meditative disciplines deliberately undermine this identity mechanism, and i believe the resulting state can be one of alignment with our true potential. I even think one can become a better hunter and a better gatherer and a better dancer and a better mate once one becomes less selfish and more open in every sense of the word. “Sure, there are some selfish and violent rulers of men who give 'Social Darwinism' a bad name. But, being social animals, those of us who are more efficient at creating a rich and nurturing social environment would have genetic advantages.” I think you’re on to a good subject: looking at the adaptive advantages of religious experience and religious faith is something evolutionary biologists haven’t done much of, so far as I know. I’m not so sure about the advantages of undermining our identity thru meditative disciplines, tho. I found that to have made me less effective as a “hunter” (achiever in the world), not more so. The country where these disciplines are most practised, India, wasn’t functioning too well last time I was there. In fact I was in a group of 60,000 people who were having it explained to them why the rotund personage on the stage at that moment was the reincarnation of Krishna, a Hindu god who never historically existed. They cheered wildly. On the other hand I imagine evolutionary biologists may one day start to put in their own context the massive repatternings which take place throughout our lives - realisations, growth, expanded consciousness, call it what you will - which is sometimes “spiritually” mediated. This ability to intellectually, cognitively and emotionally - but not biologically - “mutate” in the course of a single lifespan is something I’m keenly aware of since leaving Maharaji - because so much of it has happened for me in that brief time. It’s a huge factor in life, and one which is so far as I know not much-addressed by evolutionary theory to date, presumably because they haven’t even got an agreed picture of humans as static entities yet, let alone as dynamic ones who change so vastly within a single lifetime. Richard Dawkins is pretty wedded to the idea of Nature being “red in tooth and claw” - i.e. something of a perennial bloodbath - so I doubt if he’d agree with your idea that becoming less selfish is adaptive. I’m not saying he’s right, BTW. I agree that people who create nurturing environments would probably have better reproductive success. But I’m entirely unclear how much religious experience - so counter-productive to nurturing environments in our recent experience - would have contributed to these nurturing environments. Maybe Maharaji gave entrenched spiritual instincts a kind of postmodern spin, and manipulated them to simply enrich himself and further his own power. In fact, he did, right? Maybe there was always an evolutionary arms race between these instincts (which historically helped most of us) and the other instincts to manipulate them for personal advancement - the ones which M acted on. Maybe the 30-year Maharaji experiment was simply a microscopic tilt of the evolutionary see-saw, and now EPO and F7 are applying a microscopic tilt back the other way. On the other hand I could be talking complete bollocks. McDuck tells me that Terrance McKenna has a theory that humankind's motor skills and technology evolved through hunter-gatherers taking psychotropics. I’ve got evolutionary psychology on my list for investigation: maybe those guys have something to say about it. I certainly think that religious experience should be fairly and squarely on the evolutionary agenda. Clearly when we signed up for artis, ashrams, bliss and celibacy we were responding to some pretty deep - and I’d guess ancient - human imperatives. Deputy Dog said: “The rational mind is definitely useful, something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you lose an important part of yourself. IMO, however, to be happy, we must recognize the limitations of mind and learn to live with contradiction and paradox. “The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect.” I actually think that that love and happiness can be perfectly understood by the intellect - tho not experienced thru it. We can easily explain why love and happiness lead to cohesive societies and thus reproductive success. (And we can map much of the brain activity which generates them.) But, naturally, comprehending an evolutionary text on this topic will not in itself furnish us with love or happiness. To experience love and happiness we might have to walk the evolutionary road - i.e. find lovers and families and lifestyles that excite and nurture us - rather than merely comprehend the Darwinian mechanisms involved, with our cortexes. Jim responded to Dog: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. “I know that you never read anything beside old, new agey garbage but, if you did, you might want to expose yourself to some of the advances in brain science of the last decade or so. We're getting there, Dog, slowly but surely. We understand sooooooo much more about moods and emotions than before. That's why we can regulate disorders and imbalances better. “And as for the deeper questions about love and happiness, we're learning much about that too, in a scientific sense. It's funny to hear you go on and on about the limitations of the 'intellect'. You're in the dark by your own choosing.” Jim’s right about the brain science and the science behind love and happiness of course. I’m not quite so down on the New Age as Jim is, having been the recent recipient of some very effective energy medicine - for which there is no scientific explanation as yet. (I was put onto this energy medicine by a well-known brain biochemist, BTW. I’m also normally fairly immune to the placebo effect.) Homeopathy - which has become a part of the New Age approaches, and is itself a kind of energy medicine - works extremely effectively in double-blind clinical trials - dozens of them - and there’s no mechanism presently known for this either. On the other hand I went to an energy medicine lecture last night, at which an Indian yogi type announced that he had gone into meditation for 14 hours, stopped breathing for 12, and emerged able to write four 13,000 year-old languages, including Hebrew, Egyptian and Sanscrit. I pointed out that writing was only invented 5000 years ago, and that 13,000 years ago there were not even any settled cultures - let alone “Hebrews” (Jews), “Egyptians” or “Indians” - just illiterate nomadic tribes. And that everybody else in human history who had stopped breathing for 12 hours had continued to do so for the rest of eternity. This did not dull the enthusiasm for what he was saying by the others in the room, who appeared to regard him as a great being. It was a scary reminder of how credulous humans are, unless they have been inoculated. We ex-premies have been significantly inoculated against psychic contagion, magical thinking and bullshit in general, and I always say that this is one very positive outcome of our cult involvement. (Perhaps this belongs in the “Have we sacrificed our gifts?” thread.) Unless I get to him first, I’m willing to bet good money that this yogi will have his own cult here within a year. Any of us could tell his followers how to avoid years of stupidity and ignorance, but they may pay no more attention than we would have to similar remonstrations in the 1970s. They’d say we “just don’t understand”. Regards, John

Subject: Re: Responses From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:54:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: “Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to.” What I was getting at is the fact that K according to our beliefs was The Answer To Everything. Your speculations about how the meditation works were obviously not intended to be the ATE,but maybe they were a stab in that direction. Seemed so to me. I don't understand why prehistoric religion(which is what I guess you mean by tribal)shouldn't've been exploitative.The Golden Age...... Lots of dusting to do in the mental broom cupboard,& you've got in there with a vengeance. Good luck to you Richard,shit,sorry John. All the best

Subject: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:54:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below, I posted as Jack Kornfield who is a real person. It was not my intent to deceive anyone but to insert a bit of humor. I told a friend about the post and she thought it really was Kornfield until she read the post. Someone else (Jim?) posted in another recent thread as Kornfield. There are often similar humorous posts using real people's names as the author. I enjoy those lighthearted posts. The funniest case of mistaken identity was when an avid new Ex began arguing with Pauline Premie, a purely fictional character. Question: Do we need to be more obvious when using the names of real people? Maybe we could put AH for Attempted Humor in the subject line similar to OT for Off Topic. Or AA for Alias Author. A note in the forum introduction would clear things up. Or the poster could simply come clean somewhere in the post. Scott recently posted as a cartoon character, Cartman. In one post he put 'Cartman (aka Scott)' as the author. No rational person would think a cartoon was posting here but there is risk of misunderstanding when using a real name as I did. What do you think? Is this an issue or am I just bored today? BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back. Richard Rogers

Subject: Clarification From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:08:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I started this alias thread mainly to discuss posting under other people's real names. It's not my intention to discourage anyone from posting anonymously. I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name as long as disruption isn't their game. Some here do use aliases and have for quite some time. I respect their wishes to remain anonymous while contributing here. Their reasons are their own and that's good enough for me. Richard aka Richard was Postie but now I'm Richard

Subject: Re: Clarification - for instance From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 22:27:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name as long as disruption isn't their game.'' This is a very good guideline and I just wish Richard 2 had stuck with his first name of Turner because he totally detracts from your brilliant postiness with his new silly moniker.

Subject: Thanks Pat, but . . . From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:58:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's been helpful for Richard2 to stick with his current R2 screen name. At least he is developing a recognizable personality and, for better or worse, he has to live with that. Love his ideas or hate 'em, at least we and he knows where he stands. That's in stark contrast to the drive-by critiques so popular among the non-thinking zealots. It's my experience that when a real conversation happens we all benefit - PWK and EX alike. Richard aka Eternal Optimist

Subject: aka .... and aka .... From: Chris To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:27:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi y'all, I'm back from an all-too-short March break and have missed everybody's postings. I'll try to catch up. This is a start, thanks Richard, aka Jack Kornfield, Postie, Mahatma Coat, etc. and especially like your alias Brother Hal N. Back First item - I'm sure y'all know by now Chris is my alias, although I've revealed my real name to about 10 other 'souls' (*) so far. I'm another person who's glad that writing under an alias is an option, since being a fearful recent ex, I would never have started posting about the KIT, etc. in January using my own name. I chose 'Chris' as a nice, neutral-sounding name as a 'fear' stepping stone. Then I modified it to 'ChrisP' to differentiate from the other Chris (cq), then yet again to Crispy (how the cult has toasted me). Egad, sounds like Mj's compulsion for constant name and identity revision is actually rubbing off on me - yikes :o 2nd item - I used the word 'soul' in reference to R2's comparison a while back on souls vs. humanity. Having exed, I definitely still consider myself a 'soul' with appreciation for anything conducive to life and inspiration. I know my soul is my own for life, and a saved-from-the-cult one at that, I might add. I have to admit in hindsight, at times my 'humanity' had been put on a back-burner on a few regretful occasions during my time with Mj. However I'm relieved at witnessing it returning to prominence again after exiting. Yes, a few friends have told me they notice a difference. I'm more 'there' with them than before. BTW, this phenomena (of how an adopted cult personality/identity can suppress the individual's original personality that, thankfully, does resurface when exiting a cult) has been described in Steve Hassan's book as well. Last item - Another post brought to my attention a while ago was Sir Dave's re his friend's fear (which I also experienced just before posting on F7 this year). Methinks an individual has his/her own right to decide if K is for them or not. For me, it had crossed the line too far into the ridiculous zone to want to hang onto it anymore. The shred of truth I'm leaving with is the 'inner experience' (even if many other paths reveal it as well, and even if it is tributed to nice brain chemistry). Could be that all roads do lead to the same city even if each road gives it a different name on its own mileage sign - I don't know. But the experience is still there for me, untethered and strictly on my own terms and needs, now. It's mine to do with what and when I wish. The water is indeed very fine, and I like where I am. PS: Also keep in mind that one of the criteria in assessing a cult, according to Steve Hassan, is 'are members free to leave if they wish?' okay, I'm 'floating' off the path again ;) I'll end it here, but thanks again for the opportunity to toss my 2 more lentils worth in. Continuing cheers from Crispy

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Larkin To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:35:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Larkin's not really my name It derives from a famous dead poet To leave you no doubt With this larkin about That when it's a poem you'll know it...

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: lord of the universe To: Larkin Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:33:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is only one name, the holy name remember that yours sincerely PremPal Singh Rawat (Mr.) My freinds call me god lord of the universe

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Joy (aka Jwa) To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:56:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having never had the urge to post under aliases, I can't quite understand people's fascination with doing it. As if this medium weren't abstract enough, I don't understand why people feel the need to add additional layers and dimensions of unreality to it. (With some obvious exceptions like PatC's hilarious Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch persona, and of course Pauline Premie, whose author will remain anonymous!) But actually I really don't mind the posts by the various aliases, but like someone said below, don't tend to read them much. Too much of it and I feel it kinds of junks up the Forum. Perhaps a good compromise would be to put your real name in the signature line, sort of like (Mahatma Coat aka Richard) or something like that. That way people could scan the post before deciding to read it to see who it was by -- I don't know about others, but I tend to just read my favorite people (usually ones I've known personally, and there are at least seven of them on this Forum, but with two or three entertaiing exceptions who I also think have great insights). Just my two cents. Love, Jwa (so called because Mahatma Jagdeo and the other Indian ones couldn't pronounce Joy, couldn't get their accents round the OY sound, and it somehow stuck)

Subject: OY, that says it all! From: Francesca :~) To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:11:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hee hee. I agree about the alises. With so many of them the alias itself is a better punch line than the post. But where has Ted Farkel gone? I guess they dismantled TRAC before EV ever thought of it. Those guys are just late on the dime. No more hub cap arti trays for David Smith. Seriously I only read certain posts and agree totally that multiple aliases are a pain. However, I do know why it is tantalizing to use them. It's like acting out a part of you rather than being yourself, role playing and all that. If you've ever done any acting, you'd see why it could be a lot of fun. I have excercised restraint in not joining in the fray with several fake personalities because this medium really lends itself to that. But the real dialogue gets lost. Love, F

Subject: The embarassing thing, Joy.... From: PatC To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:12:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....is that I first posted as Thelma because I was afraid of cult retaliation. I only had to out her because the drunken bitch fell on her face the first day of posting.

Subject: Jwa, you are in your mind From: Pauline Premie To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:44:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How dare you accuse me of being an imposter. How do we know you are for real? First, you make fun of the poor Mahatmas like Jagdeo because of their speech difficulties, who not only had to deal with being waited on hand and foot by less-than-competent and subsurvient Westerners, who never did really learn how to grovel appropriately to somebody like Jagdeo, but they also have to live with the guilt that they were the cause of all the concepts and confusions that poor Maharaji is still having to bear and correct. Haven't they suffered enough without you making fun of them? But I heard one time those gulab jamins you made for Jagdeo gave him the TROTS, jwa, and I had to show him my skills at using potted plants to relieve himself in an emergency. By Maharaji's grace, I just happened to be there to lend my skills. Even a holy mahatma from India can only handle so much of a desert that tastes like soggy, disgusting, over-sweet, pancakes. No wonder Jagdeo had rotten teeth! And now, on top of all that, he is accused of the most awful, scandalous things, which nobody has a film of him actually doing, so there, and even if he did do something like that, he probably doesn't do it anymore, and he disappeared into some remote village and is completely inaccessible to anyone in the entire world, and there never was anything Maharaji could do about it one way or the other. I mean, I received knowledge from Mahatma Jagdeo, and he only stuck his hand down my blouse and into my pants about three times during the knowledge session, and I heard all the Mahatmas revealed the nectar technique the way Jagdeo did, using his own tongue down my throat, while laying on top of me. That was only normal, and in a knolwedge review Rajeswar did exactly the same thing! You ex-premies just twist everything around. You are just wicked and mean. I mean, Maharaji is all-knowing and the Perfect Master and all, but he never even once claimed to be God, no not ever, no way. I mean there is a big difference, you know, between being an all-knowing Perfect Master and 'God.' Big difference, and you are just so lacking in that understanding. He just didn't know Jagdeo ever did anything wrong. I am now taking an inventory of my remainng bodily organs that I might sell to make to the next Amaroo. It's just so blissful, because I get to sleep in a tent in the 100 degree heat for only $150 a night! I also invested in track shoes and shoulder pads, for when the seats open up at Amaroo, to help me get a better seat! Maharaji is just so merciful, so merciful and beautiful.

Subject: I posted as BOB AGWANCCI below From: OTS To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 10:23:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, JWA. Yes, those saints couldn't say your name if they were on with Regis for the million rupis (Who Wants To Be A Croropati?). Your post has lead me to confession. I replied to Pauline Premie below as Mr. Bob Awgancci. Take care, dear. Please get these hats to a speech therapist.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 02:12:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The alias thing pretty much works fine the way it is. Recently however, we have been getting **** troll posts which are typically one liners. When 'Cartman' posted (WITHOUT) the aka 'Scott' and the title of the post was 'I hate you guys' and the message of the post was 'I hate you guys' well, I thought it was a troll. Sure looked like a troll post. I had no idea who 'Cartman' is. I have seen 'South Park' one time and that was at Jim's house. It was pretty funny as I recall. I don't watch much TV. I don't think we have a problem here. I believe the old saw applies in this situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Subject: I know! I know! From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:25:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do you think? Is this an issue or am I just bored today? Bored. :)

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Roger eDrek To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 00:10:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am what I am and I ain't who anybody thinks I am - that's fer sure and that's the god honest truth. Maharaji knows who I am and so does Jim Heller™ and a small circle of fiends. But, everyone else (I love you all) and God need not know my true identity.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 17:20:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You asked: ''Do we need to be more obvious when using the names of real people?'' Yes, if you want people to appreciate your sense of humor. :C)

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Jennifer To: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:51:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with Pat. It's more fun if you are in on the joke. I usually do the aka thing if I'm using another name. Then again, it's okay if I don't know the identity of long time posters like Roger Drek or Larkin because they have already created an entire persona of their own. (I think I know who Larkin is anyway...) Jennifer, who sometimes poses as 'Mizz Magnolia'

Subject: No hock Sherlock! :C) [nt] From: Richard channeling Watson To: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:44:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: With a name like Richard Rogers . . . From: Upton O'Goode To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No wonder you are sensitive to this issue. I imagine you get asked all the time about The Sound Of Music and Oscar Hammerstein, Lorenz Hart, et al. (I know he spells it 'Rodgers', but still...). Anyway, he be dead, so you are safe. I enjoy the punning and cuteness in some of the fake names, although it gets cluttery and confusing if one doesn't know with whom one is conversing, imo. It might be a small courtesy to come clean somewhere in the post. I mean, what if the real Jack Kornflake wanted to post here? Anyway, it's the rabid premies who use fake and changing names, or no-names, all the time, apparently from both shame and malevolence. It distinguishes their 'contributions'. Cheers, Upton O'Goode (aka Carl)

Subject: Anyway what? From: Got Chabitha Ballz To: Upton O'Goode Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 21:59:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You read this... 'BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back. Richard Rogers' Then you say this... 'Anyway, it's the rabid premies who use fake and changing names, or no-names, all the time, apparently from both shame and malevolence. It distinguishes their 'contributions'. ' And you wonder why no-one takes you seriously?? Listen Fritz, them Stukkas were ok for hari kari dive bombing, but they can't match our Sptfires in a dogfight. The war 's over pal. You thinking of becoming a farmer? Well you can now because I've just given you a couple of achers, right between your legs.

Subject: Hey anonymous ghost. From: Richard To: Got Chabitha Ballz Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 23:10:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post above makes no sense and has no point. There's a difference between humor written under an alias and anonymous drive-by criticism. But to understand that you would need a rational mind. Oh, sorry I forgot that having to think and reason is beyond 'that place'. If anyone didn't know my aliases before, they do now. So who in Hardwar are you? Are you ashamed of yourself and your master? If not, why are you afraid to reveal your identity? At least pick one screen name and stick with. You might find a conversation and respect for your point of view. Potshots are cheap. Conversation takes effort but it's well worth finding out more about yourself. Don't worry about us. We're just loosers and whiners who never got it. Thanks for trying to save us from not being able to go home with the Master. (WARNING: The last Two sentences were meant as parody and/or humor.)

Subject: Yes Mr multiple aliases? From: Ball C Rusher To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 23:58:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey you're playing that same old tired broken record again pal, not one original line in your entire post. zzzzzzzz Try logging on to Napster, downloading some new tunes and getting with it.

Subject: Mr. Front Seat Rusher From: Richard To: Ball C Rusher Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:35:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 99% of the time I post as Richard. Once in a mirthful while I'll post using another alias. Those aliases are known to almost everyone but at least are known by the FA's. The spirit of this thread was to help maintain integrity of the forum in light of my JK alias confusing a few people. This is the only time anyone has been thrown by my using an alias so I made a point of being clear. Richard - Old Fart in The Hood, Ancient Kid on the Block and 2 Live for You

Subject: Re: With a name like mine From: Richard To: Upton O'Goode Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:17:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, my friends always tortured me with 'Where's Oscar?' as in Hammerstein. When I got a cat in 1983, I named it Oscar so I'd always be able to say where Oscar was. And ever since the composer died, the royalty checks have stopped coming. Love your non de forum, Upton. Richard (aka Sam 'n' Janet Evening) imusic.artistdirect.com/soundtracks/albums/southpacific.jpg

Subject: hey don't link me with sam! From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:50:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will not have my good name besmirched with the likes of being linked to sam!! or brad, for that matter! or planet! or dammit! dammit. don't you get it? I'm special.

Subject: Re: hey don't link me with sam! From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:14:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh no, I forgot to check my 2002 Revised Orthodox Forum Etiquette Manual before posting! What was I thinking? :) Actually, when I was a wee lad, my sister would sing the Rodgers and Hammerstein song Some Enchanted Evening as Sam and Janet Evening. No besmirchment intended but I'm glad you're paying attention. Richard

Subject: J/K richard From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:36:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: like you, I too have been followed around all my life by the same jokes about my name. and since this thread is about real names and aliases, I was having fun reading everyone else's posts until you went and invoked MY particular name hell. no worries. it was all in fun. i get sam and janet. i get janet and brad. i get Janet Planet. I get 'dammit, janet'. now, how could i fail to rise to the occasion and let the challenge go unanswered, i ask you? i mean, I AM the only Janet on this board, so....i heard my name, and i just HAD to answer. altho, I DO like evenings. Just not with sam.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:26:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say 'BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back.' Haven't had a problem with them, Richard, they've all been obvious aliases, and not someone else's real name. Posting using someone else's REAL name MIGHT be OK, - only IF you've got their permission. Did you get Jack Kornfield's? In which case I have to wonder what he might think of the deception (unintended or not, on your part). Perhaps you thought it would be obvious to all who read this Forum that you were he. But why? I responded to your posts thinking it was the real Jack Kornfield (of whom I know next to nothing, other than what you've told us about him) and responded honestly. Now you tell me it wasn't Mr Kornfield. How do you think that affects both him and me? I dissed the guy thinking the corn-filled crap 'he' apparently posted was worthy (if that's the right word) of my disrespect. You think he'd buy me a drink if and when we meet? Or that he'd refuse my offer of one. You're on dodgy territory here, Rich, in my honest opinion.

Subject: OK, cq From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:26:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've confirmed my thought that what I did could be misunderstood and not considerate of the real person. I'll stick to obviously fake personas if at all. No I did not check with JK before posting. Drink-wise, I've never had a drink with JK but what I've seen of him in action, he's generous, has a sense of humor and would probably welcome irreverance. For myself, I owe you a drink. Thanks for being a sport.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:09:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No no no no no!!! Don't put AH or any such thing! I think it's really funny when people respond in all seriousness to humourous posts - they always work it out in the end, (though I must admit I was fooled by your Jack Kornfield posts.) Otherwise don't you things will just get a bit too earnest? Just a typical English view for what it's worth.... Love, Livia

Subject: Livia and Kelly From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:37:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I've decided it's not cool to use a real name as nom de forum even post-humorously. You and others took me seriously as being someone else and that wasn't my intent. Plus it's not fair to the real person. Kelley, Loving wife and I read After the Ecstacy to one another to keep our connection beyond the ordinary. Haven't had it with toast yet. Hmmm, ecstacy and toast. Sounds good.

Subject: Livia,I recommend Kornflakes for breakfast. From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:29:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I happenned accross his book ' After the Ecstasy, the Laundry' very soon after emerging blinking into the cool clear light of reality, and found it helpful and illuminating, especially on the subject of the corruption of gurus. I'll post it to you in the morning. It's great with toast and marmalade and freshly ground coffee. Cheers! Kelly

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Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!