Subject: Dedication and Responsibility From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:42:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was watching this documentary the other day about this rock band that was trying to garner a following by touring across North America in a van with all their gear. Three sweaty guys, sleeping sometimes in the van, eating in fast-food joints, determined to visit most large and mid-size urban centers . Playing in places like Toledo, Ohio; Buffalo, New York. Music is their life and they are dedicated to getting out there and getting people to listen to them. Then I flashed on one of Dettmers' stories about Maharaji, about how one time actually enroute to a program on the east coast of the U.S. he caught the sniffles and ended up turning the plane around, cancelling the program, and heading off to the Bahamas or some similar spot for a vacation. It got me to thinking how when he does do programs he goes first class all the way. Flies his own Lear jet. Stays in the best hotels. Has people waiting on him hand and foot. Mistresses, cognac. Speaks for an hour or so and sits down for a sumptious meal. I thought about Maharaji blaming the instructors and organizers for getting it all wrong. I thought if Maharaji was so concerned about really getting it right he could have made the effort to actually visit the communities, at least a cross-section of them, to see how they were doing, back then. See for himself how programs were being handled, ashrams run, etc. I know that he had plenty of meetings with his organizers and instructors, what was he doing if not setting the course? But in the end he just ended up blaming the lot of them for screwing it all up. No one now is allowed to say anything about anything but himself. Feedback has been eliminated. Individuals thinking for themselves has been eliminated. Sounds like an Orwellian nightmare to me. What will happen now that Maharaji has no one to point the finger at except himself?

Subject: Sometimes an apology isn't enough OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:17:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man Lives 2 Days Stuck In Windshield Hit-And-Run Victim Eventually Dies In Driver's Garage FORT WORTH, Texas -- A man who was the victim of a hit-and-run lived at least two days trapped in the driver's broken windshield before dying in the driver's garage in Fort Worth, Texas, police said. 'I'm going to have to come up with a new word. Indifferent isn't enough. Cruel isn't enough to say. Heartless? Inhumane? Maybe we've just redefined inhumanity here,' a prosecutor in Fort Worth told Fort Worth Star-Telegram about the October 2001 incident. Share Your Thoughts Is A Murder Charge Too Harsh? Police arrested a 25-year-old woman Wednesday -- a nurse's aide -- on murder charges in the man's hit-and-run death, according to the Telegram. Police told the Telegram that Gregory Biggs spent at least two days trapped in the broken windshield of the car that hit him. They said the woman who was driving the car, Chante Mallard, drove it home and kept it in the garage -- and heard Biggs begging for help before he finally died of blood loss and shock. According to a police statement, Mallard panicked, and with the man still lodged in the windshield, she drove a few miles to her home, parked in her garage, and ignored his pleas for help until he died. His body was later dumped in a park. The mother of the homeless man, Meredith Biggs, said she wonders how the woman could have let him die the way he did. Police said Mallard told them she had been drinking and was on drugs at the time she struck the man, and that she panicked. But Meredith Biggs told the newspaper that she wants to know why the woman didn't call for help after the drugs wore off. Mallard told police she occasionally went into the garage, apologizing to the victim. The impact had hurled him headfirst through the windshield, his broken legs sticking out onto the hood. Mallard's attorney said police are overreaching in charging her with murder.

Subject: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:20:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must of meant is a murder charge harsh enough. I agree with the prosecutor, he's going to have to invent a new word for the action and cruelity by this 'nurses aid.' Yikes! To associate the word 'nurse' in any way shape or form with this individual makes my skin crawl. I have to ask you Jim, as a defense attorney, would you be able to launch a defense for a person like this? Can you refuse clients? What would you do if you had to be her defense attorney? I'm curious. Tonette

Subject: please ignore nt From: test To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:25:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: xx

Subject: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The infuriatingly enigmatic goofball poster who calls himself Quiet makes the following strange claim: I was approached by people, over three months ago now, about going back to the 'fold' so to speak. There is supposed to the meetings before Amaroo. I know other people who are in the areas of law, accountancy and information technology who had been approached. Other people, I also know, have not been approached. This is not a local occurrence, I know that happening at least three states. We Aussies move around a lot but we keep contact with our friends. To me, this seems ridiculous for several reasons. Mind you, the whole cult's ridiculous, then, isn't it? So could anyone who's more up to date on the inner workings comment? Is there any possible way this could be true, this bit about people like illiterate law students and other people in the fields Q mentions ever being 'approached' like that? I'm probably foolish for asking but, well, any ideas?

Subject: Re: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: The Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:08:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, I'm goimg to stick my neck out on this one.You can choose to believe me or not.Q's claim to the contact he mentions is as you aptly described it RIDICULOUS! The team here is just not that organised and frankly,not that pushy. He may well be confusing a few well meaning people's personal efforts with some kind of zealot push. It's pretty simple.You like? - you stay.You dont like? - goodbye.. I have my own opinion and I'm afraid Q wouldn't like it. There are no meetings.There is no agenda.Any-omn involved has known what they are doing for some time. Q's perspective is fascinating to say the least. You could find yourselves chasing foxes down the burrows.....And as you seem to be aware I am in a position to know what's going on.. Sorry Q but you simply can't shine shit.. The Cat

Subject: bullshit From: St. Piligram To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:54:19 (EST) Email Address: St Piligram@hotmail.com Message: Now that I've had a chance to read this I can say almost all of your facts are wrong and you need some psychological help.

Subject: Re: bullshit From: Sir Dave To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:16:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fine. Which facts are wrong? Maharaji's excessive drinking, smoking, drug taking, procuring of premie women for one night stands? Maharaji's inability to stop Jagdeo from sexually abusing children or Maharaji's failure to bring Jagdeo to justice or help the victims of said abuse? I mean, you should be more explicit if you refute what people say, otherwise your words are meaningless.

Subject: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:19:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below Livia talks about how local programs have been deader than a door-knob without the spontanaiety of pwks speaking. Maharaji's videos/DVDs/satellite transmissions have been doing all the talking about the possibility (sick) of knowledge for what, the last 10 years or so. His followers of thirty years apparently haven't got a clue. Quite the indictment. In m's supreme arrogance he thinks that the reason propogation has dried up in the west is because of pwk's concepts. Nothing to do with his use 'em, then lose 'em approach to his servants. Nothing to do with the regal opulence he has grown so accustomed. Nothing to do with the never-ending funding missions for M's latest whatever. Nothing to do with the facts on EPO. Although I haven't seen the Atlanta Training video yet I read Joe's account of it here. I read John MacGregor's account of the training sessions at Amaroo and CrisP's account of the local KITS. I feel that these corporate trainings with their emphasis on team-work, synchronous synergies, suppressing individualism and (god knows) linguistic profiling, might work well in the manufacture of widgets but in terms of presenting knowledge, the only purpose it is probably serving is that no one thinks for themselves and/or questions the master. In other words, the corporate trainings are the new-fangled way for Maharaji to control and exact obedience from his followers. Corporate training in the wrong hands becomes a sinister form of manipulation and mind control. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: McDuck To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:06:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my opinion, the corporate training model fits in better with Mr Rawat's worldview than the earlier Hindu devotional model, though hanging on to 'the perfection of the master' helps keep his position as CEO inviolate and unquestioned. He has been influenced by the models of 'success' of corporate America, and the pathological perfectionism has been reinforced by the rigorous demands of flying a plane. He even writes a list of the toiletries to take with him, fer christ's sake. He has expressed his admiration for the efficiency of the Coca-Cola corporate model, and Japanese workers laying cable at breakneck speed. There is obviously something to be said for the 'synchronisation' achieved by Japanese gangs and Coca-Cola, but examination of the philosophy behind the effort doesn't seem to come into play in Mr Rawat's model. Having allegedly dispensed with the Hindu training, which doesn't fit the corporate model, the Hippies which first adopted it in the West had to go, too. He has described the Hippies as 'incredibly irresponsible', no matter it was they who arose from their psychotropic stupor to spread the good word and organise the first infrastructure. So it's a training model, in which everyone is dispensable (you give your individuality to the team, after all), fuelled by generalisations. Actually, it's probably an ad hoc scat jazz training model, informed by the law of the jungle. When Dr Pascotto has outlived his usefulness, some strange new flower will rise from the undergrowth to replace him. Whatever gets you through the night…

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Livia To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:57:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to state the obvious, but I had to take a deep gulp when reading above that Maharaji thought the hippies were 'incredibly irresponsible'. If responsibility is such an important ethic for him, what about the Jagdeo issue, which will NEVER, EVER go away unless he deals with it, and which will ultimately play an enormous part in his downfall. But then Maharaji was never one for practicing what he preached - in more ways than one. With love, Livia

Subject: CyberMeister From: Pullaver To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:43:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I gather M is big on 'efficiency'. He likes to flatter himself that he is CEO of Rawat Inc. Conveniently forgetting that he obtained his obscene wealth on the backs of slave labour and continued emotional extortion not because of some slick e-Knowledge. When he said that he has come with more power than ever before we just didn't know he meant that in terms of his digital interface. I was surprised that Moody Blues song opened up the Passages video but I guess one of his fart-catchers hasn't completely forgotten just who has been buttering his bread these last 30 years. Talk about manipulation. The funny part is that he hopes to attract a new generation of seekers (suckers?) with this model, but it's still the old hippy generation that is smart-carding their way into programs. There's a parable in here somewhere - something about pouring old wine into new wineskins.

Subject: Has anyone heard from Brian S? From: gErRy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:05:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't want to have to make this public but you remember that night a couple of weeks ago when brian and I were in SF? Well, that seems to be the last anyone has heard from him. Brian was last seen on Castro street, dressed in a pin stripe suit with white knit shirt and wearing orange alligator boots, walking arm-in-arm with a tall dark skinned man in a long leather coat. Brian, if you're lurking, please call home. It's OK man, really, it is...

Subject: yep From: an email friend To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:56:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear gerry, according to my email friends, Brian is hanging in there, but he's physically ill and undergoing treatment for his liver problems. Those who give any credence whatsoever to the extensive medical studies of the Harvard University Medical School and other leading medical schools and research institutions [regarding the power of non-sectarian sincere prayers (and even agnostic positive affirmations) - both verbal and silent], might consider doing so for those people who are currently having a very difficult time right now, medically. btw, I also heard from suchabanana briefly recently, who has been going to the hospital for treatment for his heart and arteries and some major skeletal problems. (Dealing with the cumulative shock of the maharaji cult betrayals, and on behalf of others, also wore him down considerably and affected his health very badly.) Please, let's remember Steve Quint and Cynthia, too, in our thoughts and best wishes. Thanks, one and all.

Subject: Kelly and George too From: Marianne To: an email friend Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:06:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When sending good wishes and healing thoughts for people, please also include Kelly's husband, George, who is quite ill with cancer. Marianne

Subject: The Story Never Ends From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:58:07 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I've been in a psychiatric hospital for the last three months. The program with charanand last fall was the event that led to my breakdown last November, but I also did too much crack cocaine last year. This morning I was looking at the two 'learn Hindi' books that I got out of the library last week. One guy in the smoking room of my word ask me to say something in Hindi and I coudn't say very much - told him about the Hindi videos I used to go to. He said 'Jai Sat Chit Anand'. Received knowledge from Mattias in 1979 and hasn't been to any satsang program in 22 years but still practices the four techniques to this day. Opposite to me - who regrets going to a program last November but hasn't practiced the four techniques in 23 years when they drove me to serious psychosis. The fellow's name is Jimmy Larocque from Ottawa and remembers Jimmy Heller. Hope these stories help someone in some way. I'm going in for hernia surgery tomorrow - please send me your prayers and blessings. With gratitude and love, Steve Quint

Subject: Hernia surgery, should be a piece of cake From: Tonette To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:11:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll be thinking of you. Hernia surgery is quite straight forward and not a difficult procedure. You should do just fine but I know that any surgery is a little scary. Just think of all the great drugs you'll get. And speaking of drugs, mixing crack with any sort of mental illness is like mixing nitro glycerine in a blender. Stay the hell away from that stuff. All of it. Pot included. I hope now you know better when making choices on how to treat yourself. Crack makes everyone nuts and unbalanced. Geez. I'm glad to see you are getting the help you need. Healing from a breakdown can be a long involved process but when you come out the other end the srides one makes from the ordeal can last a lifetime. I'll be thinking of you, Take care and hang in there, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: All the best with your surgery From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:43:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, I wish you the very best with both your physical and psychological healing. From what I've read from you so far, you appear to have the strength and resolve required to heal completely.

Subject: All the best with your surgery, Steve [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:05:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: March 2002 Scheduled From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Date: 3/4/2002 2:34:49 PM Eastern Standard Time From: infoevsofl@earthlink.net (InfoFlorida) Reply-to: infoevsofl@earthlink.net To: infoevsofl@earthlink.net March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Sunday 3 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Learning More Event 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Phoenix, Arizona USA Nov. 21, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 55 minutes Sunday 10 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Toronto, Canada June 14, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 14th. Duration: 49 minutes Sunday 17th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Preparing for Knowledge Event: This event is for people preparing to receive the techniques of Knowledge. People who have already received Knowledge are also welcome to attend. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Enjoying Knowledge Alexandria, Virginia USA June 17, 2000 Taken from an event held in Alexandria, Virginia on June 17, 2000. Duration: 44 minutes Sunday 24 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA Nov. 19, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 52 minutes Sunday 31 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Boston, Massachusetts USA June 12, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 12th. Duration: 44 minutes aprox. TWO IMPORTANT CHANGES TO BROADCASTS 1. Important! New Broadcast Times! Beginning on Sunday, March 3rd all Sunday broadcasts will move to a new time slot. The broadcast will begin at 5:00pm PST (8:00pm. EST). 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE Anyone who subscribes to DISH can access the broadcasts. The channel number and the time to tune in are all one needs. There is no need to contact Visions in order to view the broadcasts. The broadcasts are generally on Channel 9602 and occasionally on 9601. Go to the DISH on-screen programming guide and select the program titled łMaharaji.˛ Broadcast schedules are posted on the Visions website at www.visionsinternational.org SPONSORSHIP These broadcasts are supported by the Visions Broadcasts and Materials Sponsorship program (regular monthly donations) as well as through special contributions. Sponsorship is available at any level to anyone who wishes to support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharajiąs message to people all around the world. For information, please call the toll free sponsorship line at 1-888-610-0500 or visit www.visionsinternational.org. Your support is greatly appreciated. To confirm information on video events, call: (305) 270-4768 English (305) 270-4770 Spanish For recorded information about events that Maharaji will be attending: (818) 889-0500 English (818) 889-1717 Spanish For those interested in finding out more about Maharaji and Knowledge: (818) 879-1500 English National Mail Order Library Phone #: (800) 603-0319 Other resources available: http://www.maharaji.net To order video and audiocassettes or satellite transmissions, contact: Visions International at: (805) 496-4777 or visit their Website: http://www.visionsinternational.org Thank you very much Info Miami Miami Communications Team infoevsofl@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: March 2002 Scheduled From: PatD To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. He never could be bothered to show up,loadsa times,back when he was starting out. This is where I came in... Never judge the master.Hang on,I've seen this movie before.

Subject: Those videos From: Lesley To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:56:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, they were pretty much just straight records of Maharaji talking at an event. Not literal exact records, no doubt, obviously a fair bit of editing goes on, but nonetheless, they were just of Maharaji giving one of his speeches. Then we started to get compilation videos, with grabs of Maharaji's speeches interspersed with photographic essays. M flying his plane, M driving a tractor, M walking away from the camera, M mooching around looking at the sky, M flying a kite, M going through customs, M driving a car. Also, there was M, the family man. And those retrospectives, with their double edged sword of reminding the oldies of their premie roots whilst making newbies feel they missed the boat. It wasn't long before there was a fair amount of waterfalls, waving grass, leaf floating on water, close up of flower, bird on grass stalk, sea breaking on shore added in too. Followed by ticking clocks, babies faces, city streets, renaissance art. And, of course, shots of devotees started to appear in increasing numbers. From the odd shot of a blissed out premie responding to his Master at a program, we progressed to long photographic essays of Indians lining up for darshan, Africans dancing for joy, M graciously attending a Japanese tea party, M graciously answering a devotee's question (usually how can I serve you), M being serenaded by his African cooks, M being waved to as he drives away. A video that sticks out in my mind is one where M's portrait, framed with fuzzy yellow is interspersed with waterfall and beautiful Japanese woman saying thank you and bowing her head. This was repeated for various nationalities, each one with someone saying thank you, and either implicit or stated, I love you. I think the thing that you have got to remember is that we wanted to like what we were watching. Of course there was a part of you that was thinking 'I don't believe this is happening, why am I sitting here watching water fall, why am I watching a film which is nothing but person after person saying thank you to Maharaji' but, with repetition, one accepts it. And, when you think about it, the only way to accept what you are watching, is to accept that Maharaji is worthy of that love and gratitude. Talk about empty calories! What a powerful, yet singularly unsubstantive way to reinforce the emotional bond a premie feels towards Maharaji. A funny funny aspect to this is that the photographic essays were popular with the regular video viewers, you didn't have to strain your brain around the speechmaking!

Subject: God's gift to humanity From: Will To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:26:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What kind of human being has the capacity to get up on a stage and tell people that he is God's gift to humanity? And keep a straight face? And what kind of person can actually believe that about himself? Even for a moment. Who, in their right mind, would offer countless videos of himself speaking, or walking, or driving, or just gazing about? The answer is that such a person is defitinitely not in his right mind. Any normal human person would be overcome with embarrassment to act like that. What does it feel like to sit on the Amaroo stage and have all those middle-aged ignoramuses standing there adoring you? Wouldn't it be wonderful if, instead of Rawat's face on the big screen, there could be a written print-out of the thoughts going through his mind. What can he possibly be thinking???? And what are those people thinking? They're nuts. I should know. I was one of them. It's nothing but fantasy, pretend-playing. 'Oh there is my true Beloved, the Beloved of us all!!!' It's a game for children, who refuse to grow up. It's so easy to become an ex-premie. All you have to do is be honest with yourself. Be authentic. Don't allow wishful thinking to lead you. Not even one more step. It doesn't hurt to give up the fantasy, (just a wee bit at first). It doesn't hurt to be authentic. Premies like Richard II claim that, to them, Maharaji and his gift of Knowledge, is indeed God's gift to humanity. They claim that the gift that they enjoy is so precious that all the 14 objections just melt away into oblivion. But what about the objection that Maharaji has nothing to offer people, nothing to give, that we don't already have by our very nature and the nature of the universe? What has Richard II experienced with Knowledge that is so studpendous? I'd wager that he hasn't even stuck his big toe into Truth. If Truth came and played peek-a-boo with him, he'd run away screaming. Here is Rawat's lie: 'It has to be a gift from one person to another person, from the Master to the student.' Rawat sells people their own watch. His students are the biggest fools on the planet. I'd like to take a big wake-up stick and hit all of my premie friends over the head with it. But since I don't own a wake-up stick, I might just take an ordinary stick and use that. Or maybe I'll just vent on Forum 7. But no, waking up is a gift we give to ourselves, when we're ready. Self-honesty is what we acquire when we grow up. It doesn't hurt, when we're ready. Yes, it's so incredibly easy to become an ex-premie, so much easier to take off that cloak than it is to put it on, and to continue to wear it as it disintegrates. And when you do, it is the devotion directed toward Prempal Rawat that melts away into oblivion as if it never existed, because it never really did.

Subject: Re: God's gift to humanity From: Lesley To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:03:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My guess is that while he is talking, he's okay, but the hardest bits must be the darshan line and the meditation review sessions, when he just has to sit there and take it, lol! Well said, Will. He must think he's god's gift to humanity, the idiot.

Subject: Re: Those videos From: OTS To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:07:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Lesley. I couldn’t agree more. After a while, there was no more enjoyment from the videos at all because the editing was so heavy. All jokes, stories and curse words removed. No laughing allowed, I guess. (Easy sleepin listenin.) But it was those slow motion shots of him from his compound in India -- in ironed silk pajamas with brown shoes slowly walking, walking, walking . . . those brown shoes and the souls of the brown shoes, over and over and over; mesmerizing -- that were the final drips for us. For a few years, we always used to say afterwards, “If I have to watch one more slo-mo video of him walking, I’m going to scream.” Finally, I thought, why get hoarse? Just leave. Easy. As an aside, I got a call this week from my former service supervisor at Amaroo wanting to know if I’d received my “invitation” she’d sent to me to come and “work” again this April there. I had to tell her that I was no longer a premie or EV volunteer. I still love her and her husband. They’re great. It was so much fun working with them last year. She wanted to know if it were anything that she had done that had turned me away. I told her, no, I still love my premie friends. I hope I’ll see here again, and we agreed that our belief systems are no barrier to our friendship, but I doubt I’ll ever see her again. I’m very close now to finally paying off the debt on my 1999 and 2001 trips to Australia and looking forward to better financial health. My outlook on life has definitely improved.

Subject: Re: Those videos From: Lesley To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:31:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, I take my hat off to the people here who have watched the recent videos. I figure it was enough for me to have gone back one last time and watched him in action, no more videos for this lil black duck. I remember when I was newly exited saying to a premie friend that it had turned into a well packaged spiritual path for the wealthy. What about all the Indians, and Africans, he asked, with a smile. Wallpaper, I replied, part of the packaging. Like the shot taken of me listening in rapt attention, someone pointed out to me that it was used in more than one video. Good to be out, isn't it, now I think I'll go and watch my own waterfall which is running again with the recent rains, or perhaps a bird perched on a swaying palm frond, or perhaps I can follow, with rapt attention, the footsteps of the man up here to clear the branches from the powerlines, now that's not a bad idea...... All the best, Lesley

Subject: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Sara Porter To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Ex-Premies, The purpose of this letter to you on this forum is to explain something important about Cynthia. She has asked me to write on her behalf because Cynthia is unable to address these issues herself at this time. She has made this request of me and together we decided it was appropriate for me to write this. My name is Sara Porter. I met Cynthia when I was ten years old. Now I am twenty. I don't have the ability to speak. My only means of communication is to write. What I am going to explain to you will sound weird. Everything I tell you is true. I never was a premie or a devotee of Guru Maharaji Ji and I never received the Knowledge. It's important that you note that because it is true. I never met Guru Maharaji Ji and I only heard about him through Cynthia. I am one of eighteen alters or personalities who live inside Cynthia's head. Multiple Personality Disorder is real. Last night after a long conversation between all of the adults which exist inside our body and head we discovered that another alter or personality has emerged who is an eight year old child. That is as far as we got in this discovery and more exploration has to be done. This child has been preventing Cynthia from functioning well by causing insomnia for many weeks by causing disturbing nightmares. It's a girl who is enraged about something also undiscovered and her characteristics besides her age are yet to be known by Cynthia and the rest of the group inside Cynthia's head. Cynthia is afraid to write this letter because she has been ridiculed in the past for being too emotional here. The emotional aspects that have erupted on this bulletin board were not a search or quest for sympathy or even empathy-Cynthia knows how unbelievable MPD is to many here and in the world. It is a stigma to have such a strange disorder. Most people who have it keep it a secret because of the disbelief and ridicule. Cynthia is a fearless woman. A long time ago Cynthia revealed her situation about her diagnosis of MPD and was then banished from Forum 4 because some people did not believe in MPD and Cynthia's admission. Some did not believe that Cynthia even existed. She was placed under a microscope and accused of making letters here under too many names and it was not true. What happened at that time is in the past. Cynthia has never overcome that however. That is why she has always written her letters here with her real life name, Cynthia J. Gracie, not a fake one or alias as you call it here. The only exception to that is sometimes she would post as Scorpio-II, Chief of Security. She communicated this to the forum administrators to avoid confusion about the second alias. Scorpio-II is not an alter it is just a made up name. Cynthia is in a deep depression right now. She takes medications but often they do not work. It is hard to explain about that. Often when someone with MPD takes medications for depression and anxiety and phobias they do not work for other parts. It is not the fault of medications. It is the difference in the needs and characteristics of all the parts that cause these medications not to work sometimes. Cynthia thought she was finished with therapy but is not. Cynthia worked long and hard to discover all the parts inside her head and brain and is saddened and exhausted by the discovery of yet another child part who needs attention. This has caused many of the recent eruptions of misplaced rage that have been written by Sydney. Sydney is a warrior and she has been the ultimate rescuer and protector of Cynthia since early childhood. Sydney is the part that swears like a sailor and globalizes all the rage and smears it anywhere without discretion. Sydney does not apologize for anything she does or says. Cynthia does that for her because it is her job as the core or host person. Sydney has grown up a lot over the past few years and with Cynthia agreed to remain in her room inside Cynthia's head. It was not that Sydney was banished-people with MPD cannot banish alters. This plan was for Sydney to live quietly and learn to behave appropriately. Recently Sydney has stormed out and taken over causing a lot of chaos within Cynthia's internal system of alters. Whenever Sydney comes out inappropriately it gives Cynthia bad headaches. Bad headaches are a characteristic of switching. Lately, because the alters have been in chaos it has been like a revolving door. That is how Cynthia describes frequent switching between alters. No medication helps these headaches. No medication helps with sleep. Cynthia does not expect anyone to believe in MPD. Some people do and some people do not. It is a lonely way to live because of the disbelief however. Cynthia has not left her house for three months. She has been practicing stepping outside and taking about ten paces from the door. Her husband Thomas loves her very much and encourages her and helps her to feel safe even when panic hits so very hard she is so very scared. Cynthia will not be posting anymore on the forums. This decision was also made last night during our inside conference. On the outside Thomas also agrees it is not good for Cynthia to be logging on to this place even though Cynthia is so very commited to the abused ex-premies. Why did Cynthia choose me to write this? That is easy. I never was a premie. Cynthia was the premie. Cynthia is ultimately in charge but as I told you she is very ill right now. Cynthia does not want sympathy. She does not even expect anyone to believe all this even though it is all true. Cynthia has given up trying to explain MPD here and everywhere else. She does not consider it her responsibility anymore to try to convince anyone about a real emotional disorder. She gives that responsibility to you and others in her life who have rejected her because of her honesty. Cynthia wishes with all her heart and soul that scientists would do research on MPD because it is a real thing. She does not hold bad feelings for anyone here except for some of the mean people who are called trolls who wrongly have called her psychotic. That is untrue. Cynthia wishes that the ex-premies here would learn not to call names by using terms related to mental illnesses or emotional disorders. She also wants you to know that she does not have any organic mental illnesses like schizophrenia. That mental illness is different and often people confuse it with MPD. Therefore, on behalf of Cynthia J. Gracie I am saying good-bye. She won't be back to respond so you can answer this however you wish. That may not be polite in a forum but necessary to Cynthia's health. Some day when she is feeling better and able to function and is feeling whole again maybe she will return. There are no guarantees about that. She asked me to say good-bye for her. Sincerely, Sara Porter, on behalf of Cynthia J. Gracie from Vermont

Subject: MPD is very real and very rare From: Tonette To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:40:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! What must she be going thru? I hope and pray that she is allright. Thank God for her husband. Take care of her Tom, she's a beautiful person. I'll miss her. Tonette

Subject: Re: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Sir Dave To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:21:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have MPD but I do suffer from chronic fatigue syndrome (also called M.E.) and fibromyalgia and consequently my state of being is often bad and I don't feel part of the human race, more like a raised corpse. The reason why such long term illness can make one feel seperate from others is that one can't do the things that other people take for granted - like have an active day without feeling totally exhausted for days afterwards. It is that feeling of ''seperateness'' from the rest of the human race that can make long term illnesses difficult to cope with. Having understanding friends really helps and I appreciate such friends tremendously. In your case, you certainly have that here, in spades and hopefully in ''real life'' too.

Subject: To Thomas. From: PatD To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:19:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always admired your wife's point of view here & the information about hidden things that she brought to light. Good Luck: Patrick Dorrity,Stratford-on-Avon,England.

Subject: Re: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Lesley To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:25:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Sara, Give Cynthia, and all, my best wishes. She is a brave and caring woman who despite insisting on her lack of education knows rather a lot, and has been very helpful to me. Best regards, Lesley

Subject: Love to Cynthia J. Gracie From: Francesca To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:10:07 (EST) Email Address: notinherent@yahoo.com Message: And love to each and every one of her alters, because they are a part of her. I don't have any reason to doubt what she, or you, is saying. Peace and love, Francesca

Subject: Big group hug for Cynthia and friends From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:22:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks again for being tough enough to stand up and tell us like it is for yourself. And thanks to Sara for bringing us the news. My email inbox is always open. Love you Cynthia. Richard

Subject: Be Well +) From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:38:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Sara and Cynthia: Please be well. Barbara +)

Subject: :O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O) From: Bert,Ernie and Big Bird To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:08:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHOA:P :O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

Subject: Hey Cynth and Sara and all From: Gerry gErRy and gerry To: Bert,Ernie and Big Bird Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:57:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We love you. Come back when you are feeling better.

Subject: To Cynthia From: Livia To: Gerry gErRy and gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 06:04:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cynthia, I don't know if you are reading this any more, but if you are, this is to say how much I have appreciated your clear, passionate and heartfelt posts over the last few weeks. You have responded caringly and lovingly to many of us here, myself included, and I'm certain you have helped many in more ways than you can possibly imagine. You have been very much appreciated and will be missed. Take good, deep care of yourself - our thoughts are with you. With much love, Livia XX Email me if you you ever want to at liviadowte@hotmail.com

Subject: Raskolnikov 'R' Us From: Gregg To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:26:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dostoevsky's 'Crime and Punishment' is known as one of the earliest of 'psychological' novels. Whereas most novels had been plot-driven, this one is mostly about Raskolnikov's inner turmoil. The main event in the novel is his murdering an old pawnbroker, and this occurrs just one-fifth of the way through the novel. Rereading the novel, I am seeing it especially as a masterful exploration of not people in general, but the psychological states of people in their early twenties. Exploring one's sense of self, especially in relation to friends, family, authority, etc., is what adolescence is about. After age eighteen or so, one's concerns expand to one's place in larger society. It is in one's early twenties especially, I've noticed, that people tend to take a theory or philosophy or social movement or religion and totally immerse themselves into it. You can see why I'm posting this observation here, of course. Most of us were of that age when we got hooked into Maharajism. You can think of (or observe) many other manifestations of this twenty-something radicalism. Yesterday I was having lunch with a fifty-something leftist who's still very active in anti-globalization movements etc. Usually he complains about people his age, aging leftists still passionate about esoteric historic splits in the commie/labor movement...as a result, the average person with deep misgivings about the current system wouldn't come near a 'leftist' group. But today he was complaining about the twenty-something anarchists, who like to wear black masks and break things. Where will that get the movement? Well, that question poses issues beyond the ken of those who are caught in the throes of passionate creative nihilism, or whatever they imagine themselves to be caught up in. Raskolnikov killed the pawnbroker, in part, because he so believed in his 'rational' equation about how much better the pawnbroker's money would serve the people than it would sitting around in this old lady's trunk. We, too, were so convinced the power of Truth was behind us that we had no trouble rationalizing the unwholesomely cultic nature of our involvement, something that is obvious to us now, in retrospect. Many of these messianic/apocalyptic/all-explaining philosophies that so gripped us in our twenties lose their allure as we grow older and learn the real value of selfless love, family, work, nature and other such 'worldly' things. But the rewards of submerging oneself into a default family and subsuming one's ego to an all-loving Master are so great, for many, that, decades later, there are still quite a few aging boomers still getting their dopamine rush from the myth of the Lotus Feet. So count your blessings. None of us are still stuck in our twenties (or in The Seventies), nor have we taken an axe to the head of an old pawnbroker's head. BTW, how old are the current aspirants/PWK's? (I realize the sample may be too small to be statistically significant, but still...are they boomers falling apart at the seams, or are they young lost ones?)

Subject: that's a *BEST* From: Roger eDrek To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:24:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent! Good points on the excessive indulgencies of misspent youth.

Subject: Aspirants:Youngish with mental problems........ From: PatD To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:34:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....in my limited experience.

Subject: Premies' secret secret From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:56:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on LG some premie reckons that Gerry's secret ID, which is only known by Gerry is also known by the premie. This secret ID is something to do with Gerry's heart or something-or-other. This secret exclusiveness is mind numbing. Do premies really believe that they have a monopoly on the heart? Who made them think this way? Of course, it's all those Maha videos they're watching every week, year in, year out. You know, it's not doing them any good. Someone should tell them.

Subject: And the 'heart' is just a squishy word From: Francesca To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:17:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I sometimes use the H-word myself for lack of a better word, it is the word for a range of emotions or a particular state of mind/feelings. If you sat individuals down and asked them to define it, it's different for everyone. Merriam-Webster's has several definitions, including: * the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature; * one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations; * the central or innermost part; * the essential or most vital part of something. All those descriptions certainly indicate that whatever it is, everyone has one. And I've got hands too, and a head also, and feets that were made for walkin'. I know what you mean Sir Dave. Like whoop-de-doo! Francesca

Subject: Maharaji's trampled all over the English language From: Sir Dave To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:06:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Expressive words are reduced to mere platitudes by the Lord of Trite. Trouble is, his devotees all copy his sayings and don't realise how silly they sound.

Subject: Jim from below, 'god' as reality' From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:16:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember on acid having any 'cosmic' experiences, universal one love ones etc? Same in meditation? We were so naive that if we thought we'd experienced 'god', then it must have been because 'god' is real. This generation are much more advanced. If they experience 'god' on chemikals or whatever, they know it's their brain chemistry, and they know that they themselves are key to their interpretations. We were always more literal, Be Here Now, Leary, etc sold because we believed 'that' reality was external to us, a 'real' thing. That's one of the reasons premies who have had very 'real' experiences can be so swayed by gm's 'interpretations'. They are still stuck in our generations literal acceptance of what we experience.I know for myself that those experiences let me ride the 'lila' thing for way too long, because I was so certain it was really permeating the universe. Nowadays people laugh at such stuff, or at the worse casrry question marks much further into that territory. No accident so few of this generation get sucked into gurus.

Subject: Hi Hamzen: Weened off Lilas From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:08:27 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Been enjoying this debate. I like the idea of being 'weened off Lilas'. But I don't think 'maturity' or 'wisdom' is much to do with fashion or movements although they do of course play a part in a person's life. I don't recognise Lilas anymore but I do get pleasantly surprised by the unknown and it's spontaneous way of popping in. To quote H.L.Mencken: ' Penetrating so many secrets. we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking it's chops.' Neither linguistic phiosophy nor drugs nor religion nor belief can light a candle to the empty handed leap into the void. BTW, did you get my Email? Peace and Love Tim

Subject: You can quote Mencken to me anytime, Tim:) [nt] From: PatC To: Tim G Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 03:47:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: H.L.Mencken

Subject: Seeing as you asked, Pat From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:13:10 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself. H.L.Menken

Subject: It's different nowadays Tim From: hamzen To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:37:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Feel this generation have taken style to another level, they use it as a way of authenticating whether something is real or not when you have neither the skills or any other way of knowing, and I must admit, concepts blown, that I have learnt bigtime from it. If you think about gm, using that concept we would have seen through him in a mo, his dodgy so thatchererite/reagan suits, his dancing, his music, his poetry, etc etc etc, I took a mate of mine to a video during the early rave days, someone who would have been up for it if it had been authentic, and he was bemused. His exact comment (well as nigh on as memory can allow) was 'that guy is like the worst second hand car salesman I could ever imagine, he's so obviously fake, how the fuck did you ever fall for that.' Still can't explain to him the level of our naivete and openess to possibilities, whatever. We have just accepted that he will never get it, and this geezer has maximum respect for me. I certainly did get your e-mail, and we are well up for it this end, just checking with everyone how they feel about the royalties issue and will get back to yer soon. I must say the timing is PERFECT. Can't wait for the postie to deliver, and to be radically honest, thought I'd already sent an email saying as such, whoops overload this end, if not age & memory. Ain't music glorious, well unless it's the embarrassing doodles prepared by gmj in his VERY expensive studio, what a sad fucker he is, and how embarrassing that no-one is in a position to tell him, and that even if they did he wouldn't hear. The guy doesn't have a clue how much he exposes himself through his 'artworks'.

Subject: Thanks. Got it. Agree? Maybe From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:17:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Ham I guess that's true to some extent although I bet there are still a lot of people who have and then interpret psychedelic visions in the same spiritual light we once did. But I hve your point. I'll think about it.

Subject: Re: Thanks. Got it. Agree? Maybe From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:23:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the % of people who will get sucked into stuff now is tiny, certainly in this country, and certainly with e culture. Round 90-92 here the whole e culture thing was getting very 'lovey' 'one love' kind of thing, lots of 'spiritual' or close to spiritual samples used in songs, thewn at the end of 92 there was a massive and very fast change in the other direction, I'm talking VERY fast. They would rather let go of that bliss than get sucked into that shit, street wisdom at its very best, at the moment that vibe is coming back for the first time since then, BUT it is so grounded now, no risks at all. Now I'm sure there will always be kids who are really really vulnerable who will get sucked in, but running alongside the street wisdom has been one about confidence. Remember in the 60's how in hippy culture you'd find so many over sensitive wimpy kids, lacking social confidence, the % now is minmal in comparison. The interpretation of those 'god' experiences now is the street level version of Dettmers academic approach, had a number of chats with people over the last 10 years that made this painfully clear. I had to use that systems/relational approach to ween me off lila and realize it was my construction, and that gm had fed that construction, whereas for these younger people it was built into their social norms.

Subject: E generation didn't pluck ideas from thin air From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:16:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hamzen said: ''This generation are much more advanced. If they experience 'god' on chemikals or whatever, they know it's their brain chemistry, and they know that they themselves are key to their interpretations.'' Of course they are more advanced. They have had the benefit of learning from their parents' mistakes. They saw how we were duped by Hindu gurus and a lot more is known about psychedelics now than was known 30 years ago. None of this stuff was known by us so of course we fell for it. They're only smarter because more research (including joining cults and leaving them) has been done. Their smartness did not appear in a vacuum. It is thanks to pioneers of our generation who REALLY experimented with our lives, brains, drugs, goofy spiritual ideas etc. These kids know that drugs are only drugs not god and gurus all turn out to be conmen - all! Each kid may not personally have read about the effects of entheogenic drugs but perhaps their dads did or their teachers and the skepticism is now part of their paradigm. They got where they have because our generation fried our brains on entheogens and joined cults AND left them. And some people wrote about it especially on the net. We didn't have the knowledge now available and we didn't have the net. No mystery.

Subject: If only human beings were that logical From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:37:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I don't think they are. They got here via a long youth culture debate over 25 years which was more based upon reaction to style than logic. Certainly here the punk anti-hippy stance was a style reaction, and one based upon self value and self worth. They saw how vulnerable and over sensitive we were and reacted against. Hippy shit was then buried here til e culture in the early 90's, and they got very close to going down that route, in fact the extreme hippy end of goa trance is identical in the terms used to us, though more independent thinking than we were. Check out the texts of a web site I'm working on at the mo, http://www.interdimensional-artform.com No I think a lot of it is down to the drugs of choice now, people prefer l;ess psychotropic drugs now in general, but their weakness now is the level of physical risks they take as against psycho risks, as I know only too well from the near death through stupidity of one of my closest friends last year which appalled me. Trying to understand it afterwards, EVERY single one of the people I spoke to, all under 35 had taken regular physical risks that were scary. They might be wiser in one area, but they are stupider in another.

Subject: Re: If only human beings were that logical From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:46:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi ham. You said: ''They might be wiser in one area, but they are stupider in another.'' Too true but, being an optimist, I hope they'll get wiser as they get older. I watched ''The Anniversary Party'' a few nights ago about a bunch of Hollywood types in their 30s taking E at a party. It was an interesting view of how E has become mainstream. Talk about dumb people! Highly recommended movie. Two thumbs up!

Subject: Re: If only human beings were that logical From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:18:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well certainly the near death, and we are talking near death, of one of my closest mates, love her madly, 7 months down the line and she's only just spending her first time on her own has hit her crowd big time. But she was 30 and I couldn't believe how stupid she was, and the guilt she's going thru now is enormous. Gurus no way would they contemplate it in a million years, and she's exactly the kind of person who would have been cult driven in the 60's, loves jesus madly but won't have anything to do with a church, but on alcohol the craziest things, especially the women, some of the stories I heard were insane, 7 floors up the outside of a building for a shag with someone they didn't even care that much about was the worst, but I heard plenty of other horror stories, madness. But for all that I do love the alternative dance crowd, exactly the kind of community and reality and honesty I would have died for during our premie days, jesus rawat was so stupid, any brains at all and he would have followed mischlers ideas, he might have been bogus but it would have been sweet as, and he would have raked it in much longer, ahh but his ego was too big, what an idiot.

Subject: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: Tonette To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:58:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Guru's are out and I agree the young people today are more savy in smelling a fraud but not immune to falling prey to a cult. Especially if said cult is aimed at the issues that are fore-front in today's struggle and correctly identifies a weakness prevalent in our youth. Youth is the single most important ingrediant in order for a cult to take hold by and large. I don't think any generation is immune. We were easy pickings though. Ripe for the taking. Primed by the Beatles, wanting to stop the world from what was surely self destruction, believing in love, idealistic, naieve, inexperienced, ect. ad nauseum. Yep I remember 'cosmic' experiences. I think one of the most powerful was when I mainlined cocaine. Talk about instant knowledge, the experience with coke was similar but much more intense. Instant love, instant clarity, instant truth. And just like knowledge, it was forever transitory, here now, but gone in a flash. And I knew quite quickly from that experience with coke that it was just a ruse. Fun, interesting, but not something I would spend my whole life pursuing. Knowledge however, since it was attached to a cult, was alot harder to discount and disconnect from even after I knew that it too was another ruse. Anyway, just part of my path. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: Sulla To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:55:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But remember that as those part of the brain that were stimulate by drugs made possible for you to experience all that, there is the possibility that the manifestation of God, in the case that he exists, through your brain, could do the same thing. As in meditation, or contemplation or whatever. Remember the Neurotheology experiment? It help me to detach M from my experience, and made me doubt if God had something to do with the experience and also of God existence. I simply don't know anything and I don't have any impulse to look for anything that could fill the empty cup. But I miss that feeling of a superior power taking care of each of us, taking care of me and the ones I love, even when a lot of times it was hard to believe with all this people suffering of hunger, violence and many other things. But maybe is like it's not all God's responsibility, if he exists, since humans are the ones in charge, and responsible for both good and bad in this world. Who knows.

Subject: The Neurotheology experiment From: Livia To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:33:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Sulla, what was the Neurotheology experiment? Sounds interesting... Best, Livia

Subject: Free Will is what we have supposedly From: Tonette To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:31:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never had a divine intervention personally so I can not say whether there is a God or not. I'm glad lots of people believe in God. The threat of ever having to answer to him it makes man more likely to mind his p's and q's. Try to be good, don't do anything too terrible. Then again, it would be hard to measure the benefit of belief in God against all the war and killing and enslaving that has transpired in the name of God. It's a fact that humans need each other. God does turn a blind eye to suffering, if indeed he does exist. It is up to us to make the best of our world and ourselves. That's just my take without being to whole heartly answer the question. But one thing I do know, without a shadow of doubt, Maharaji ain't the answer and his little circus stunt knowledge trip ain't the truth.

Subject: Re: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:25:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many 20 year olds will fall for all this corporate training crap and quasi-scientific mumbo-jumbo like neuro- and bio-feedback and orgone boxes or their modern equivalents? And they still join the christian churches their parents belong too including that one where Jesus hovers three feet above the ground so as not to come too soon - what's it? Oh the Mormons. And the RC church is sucking kids up in Africa by the thousands still. Those are all mind-bending cults.

Subject: The game never changes From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ability to hogtie and hoodwink a person into the dogma of a particular belief is probably as old as man himself. Executed under the guise of spiritual heath or growth the game is still the same only the wrapping it comes in changes. There really are lots of mind numbing cults when you look at it. I guess it just depends on how dangerous and destructive they are or they become on whether or not a particular cult gains society's attention. I'll never forget the time when the Pope came to Washington, DC. I happened to work with a cardiac surgeon that night after he had been to the pope's event at a large stadium that day. He couldn't shut up about how wonderful it all was and here's the clincher, he actually said 'There's no doubt in my mind now that the Pope is truly a divine being.' And the look on his face and in his eyes, the dazed, glazed bliss look that I can recognize so well was exactly what I've seem in premies faces one two many times. I remember thinking 'there's no doubt in my mind that you, doctor, are being had by a cult.' God, no one is immune. What is it with humans? Are we really that lazy and insecure that we don't want to think for ourselves? Cults seem to be devised to accord power and wealth to one person or a select few by sucking it out of the participants. What do the members get out of it? A belief system, a sense of security and belonging and sometimes that dazed, glazed bliss look. It will be very interesting and quite alot of trouble when all those male Afghan children grow up. Talk about an indoctrination by the Taliban! Maybe we should send the born again Christians over to Afghanistan to reprogram them. What is the RC church btw? Take care Pat Kind Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: The game never changes From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 03:58:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, You asked: ''What is the RC church btw?'' Let me answer it with a quote from your post: ''I'll never forget the time when the Pope came to Washington, DC. I happened to work with a cardiac surgeon that night after he had been to the pope's event at a large stadium that day. He couldn't shut up about how wonderful it all was and here's the clincher, he actually said 'There's no doubt in my mind now that the Pope is truly a divine being.' '' That's the RC church - the Roman Catholic cult to which I once belonged. It's an old and respectable cult which is why it's okay for cardiac surgeons to belong to it. I find it hard to beleive but it seems that otherwise sane people believe in the infallibility of the pope and that he is Christ's top rep on earth as well as the Immaculate Conception, The Ascension, The Assumption and Transubstantiation. Oooh boy! Yep, they worship the pope too.

Subject: may be engaging in illegal advertising? From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 06:59:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a sample but much more info at the link including bait and switch: FALSE ADVERTISING AND DECEPTIVE TRADE PRACTICES Introduction New York law contains a number of provisions designed to protect consumers from deceptive business practices. New York law does not allow for an implied private right of action, which means that the applicable statute must expressly create one.1 False Advertising Any advertising which is misleading in any material respect is considered to be false advertising. An advertisement is considered misleading if it fails to disclose facts which are important in light of what is stated in the advertisement, or facts which are relevant in the light of the customary use of the product. Consumers who have suffered damages from a business' use of false advertising are entitled to file a civil suit for recovery. The Attorney General is also empowered to sue for false advertisement on behalf of the State of New York.2 The use of false advertisement also carries criminal penalties to the extent that it is a misdemeanor under the Penal Law.3 It is also a misdemeanor for an advertiser to overlook or refuse to disclose whether it is a dealer in the goods being advertised. The same penalties apply to advertisers who fail to disclose to the media carrying their advertisement the true name ad address of the advertiser.4 Newspapers, television, and radio stations can not be held liable for false advertising for the false statements in an advertisement. You be the judge www.consumer.state.ny.us/clahm/false_ad.htm

Subject: From: aussie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:26:48 (EST) Email Address: eastfront74@hotmail.com Message: just found a video called 'windows in time'any ex or current prem. interested.

Subject: Postie's Ten-Fold Path :) From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 21:58:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, a word of explanation. This is embarrassing folks but here goes. Unexpectedly, I will occasionally go into a trance and channel an ancient entity named Postie. These teachings should not be confused with my previous forum persona, also named Postie. What follows was written down exactly as it came through me the first time that Postie blessed me with his/her wisdom. He/she called it Postie's Ten-Fold Path. This isn't some cheesy Eight-Fold Path like you may have seen elsewhere. Postie gives us two bonus folds. Richard Postie's Ten-Fold Path I - Always act like you've just heard the cosmic joke. Everyone loves people with a sense of humor so let them know you are a funny person who can laugh at himself or herself. Hey, nobody's perfect so stop trying. II - Never delay in attending to your carnal needs. If God had wanted us to be like angels, She wouldn't have given us genitalia or allowed us to get hungry. As real estate people remind us: 'Get a lot while you're young'. And Postie's favorite aphorism on the subject 'Eat chocolate now, there's none in heaven'. III - Sacred cows make the best hamburgers. In India, cows are treated with love and affection and are fed the very best treats so naturally they would be tasty. The same is true of our most preciously held beliefs. Go ahead skewer those outdated infantile concepts and live a little. IV - Don't hold your breath. This may seem obvious to many but you would be surprised how many people hold their breath in tense situations. Besides your face turning blue, holding your breath can make blood vessels pop in your brain and that's no picnic. V - Never pay full retail. Also known as the Costco Corollary. It would be foolish to spend more than necessary of the green energy you've created. You'll need plenty for your golden years of Postieness. VI - Always wear clean underwear. You've heard this one before but the real reason has nothing to do with what your mom warned you about being embarrassed in the emergency room. The real reason for wearing clean underwear is because it just feels better, silly. VII - Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. Why stress over the small stuff? Relax and you'll live longer. VIII - Laziness is next to Postieness. As we all know, Postie is the living incarnation of laziness. So the lazier you are, the more you become like Postie. And that's a good thing. But remember, the Postier you get, the Postier Postie gets so you'll never catch up to Postie. IX - Always doubt the purity of your drinking water. Remember in school when you first looked at drinking water under a microscope? Think about that ghastly image before you take a drink. X - You can't come home without your car keys. If this one isn't obvious, you shouldn't have a driver license anyway. Now take a few moments to close your eyes and focus on your second chakra. Hmmm, very good. Now you are warmly invited to say the Postie Prayer along with me. The Postie Prayer Postie's Ten-Fold Path is all the wisdom I'll ever need. May I always follow Postie's amazing and humble example. I thank God who, in Her divine wisdom, created Postie for the benefit of all humanity and huwomanity. Amen and Awomen That concludes the teaching for today. If you lovely earth creatures find any value in these words of wisdom, FCFA happily accepts gratitude in the form of Cashier's Check, Money Order, Visa and MasterCard. US funds only please. FCFA also sells quality water filters should you require one. Peace and blessings to everyone, Postie Founder and Spiritual Leader, First Church of the Faulty Assumption FCFA is a non-gender-biased 501c3 charity. All contributions are tax deductible.

Subject: Re: Postie's Ten-Fold Path :) From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 02:47:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What could we want that Postie cannot give? Do we want happiness a quiet mind, A sense of true contentment money cannot buy? All this Shri Postie offers us and more. We owe it to ourselves to dig deep and commit ourselves tenfold, no, one HUNDREDfold to this ten-fold golden way, which only by his/her grace we can walk. Also I have set an example by signing up for his/her (only Postie knows fer sure!) water filter downline. It's so easy! We travel around college campuses buying up old water filters and recondition them for resale by Ampostiefilter. Enthusiastically his/hers, Dissing the culta

Subject: When the Student is Ready , the Master Appears! From: Joy To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 04:47:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At last, some spiritual guidance I can relate to. My gratitude check is in the mail! Do you require a Lear Jet, oh wise one? A fleet of Rolls Royces and Mercedes and Maseratis? Mansions? Darshan tunnels? Your wish is your devotee's command! We will all do our best to make sure this wisdom gets spread to every corner of the globe (or at least that your bank accounts do). What do your devotees get to be called? Post-Its? Infinite pranams at your Lotus (narcissus? tulip? daffodil?) Feet, Jwa P.S. Hi Disculta!

Subject: Joy and Disculta, thank you from Postie From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:00:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie has told me (in mini-trance last night) to express his/her heartfelt thanks that you two have completely understood his/her message. Pity the rest of those who do not have the eyes to hear or ears to see. Disculta, Postie says to tell you that he/she thinks you are truly wise because you have joined his/her mission of bringing the possibility of pure drinking water to all of humanity/womanity. Surely you will prophet. And dear Joy, Postie says to thank you for so wisely naming his/her devotees Post-Its. Although Postie does not admit to having devotees, he/she actually LOL'd on that one. Important message from Postie: Any vicious and hateful rumours you may have read on the Ex-Postit website to the effect that Postie is really a scam artist is just plain wrong. Richard Spokesperson for The First Church of the Faulty Assumption Never a cult, honest Injun

Subject: Are Ex-Post-its Post-Toasties? [nt] From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:03:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: b) From: Richard To: Barbara Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:16:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Journey Entry Second Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:26:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: While hanging around krishnasukanand I walked out of two knowledge sessions. The first time I had too many questions and was too excited to sit still. The second time a few days later I wanted to do service watering the garden and was too antsy and excited to sit still. We were told that when the garden came into bloom maharaji and his family would show up in Montreal. Of course it never happened. I was practically living in the ashram and one day I received a message from krishnasukanand that I should go back to the ashram and that if I could, I should go to see him in Ottawa. I had donated all my money to maharaji and and ashram to buy colour tv's for the 'holy family' and didn't even have bus fare to travel the 100 miles to Ottawa. I thought that I already had 'knowledge' so I didn't pursue it until after Peace Flight in April 1977. A lot of confusion over the word 'knowledge' and a bad choice of words for an 'initiation' ceremony in my opionion. I received knowledge from Nadine Lebas on August 15, 1977 after telling her my story. I later found out this was India's 30th anniversary, another strange and 'cosmic' coincidence. I remember the day of my last bachelor's degree exam - April 23, 1977, as upon arriving home from that last memorable exam, in law, I got a call from my sister informing me that Peace Flight would occur next week - another cosmic coincidence, so I thought. Some people expressed the interest to hear more of my story - I'll post more laster if there's still interest. Thanks everybody for your feedback and of course, more is very much welcome. All the best, Steve

Subject: Yes more, more From: Francesca To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:42:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, Definitely this is interesting, and has encouraged me to get started on mine soon. I did a bunch of writing that I never finished, and maybe I should try the installment method as well. By the way, you said: . I received knowledge from Nadine Lebas on August 15, 1977 after telling her my story. I later found out this was India's 30th anniversary, another strange and 'cosmic' coincidence. I don't think you meant India's 30th anniversary! Bests, F

Subject: Re: Yes more, more From: Steve Quint To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:08:49 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: What you mean? I've tried to put in a link, but links don't seem to friendly or easy to use in this bulletin board. In case it doesn't work try: www.itihaas.com/independent/15aug47times.html or type August 15, 1947 into a good search engine like Google.com All the best, Steve Itihaas Times www.itihaas.com/independent/15aug47times.html

Subject: Ask a question, learn some history From: Francesca To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, you meant India's independence. Thanks for the info. Oh, and hey, the link worked fine. You've finally got the hang of it. It works super actually, if you only have one link. With more than one, you have to do the html just like on F5. Saw your post above. Hope all goes well. Best wishes, Francesca

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Second Installment From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:37:21 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Above shoudld have read: 'I was practically living in the ashram and one day I received a message from krishnasukanand that I shouldn't go back to the ashram and that if I could, I should go to see him in Ottawa'. I really wish that there was a law about how words are used, in particular the word 'knowledge' in this case. I'd like to see some attempt to objectify how the word knowledge is used and justify how it has been used in maharaji's world. What kind of marks would a good professor give maharaji's people for the use of words such as knowlege. I hope to see some interesting discussion on these web pages. Steve

Subject: More! More. Thanks, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:28:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I will email soon. I've been very busy over on the Sat Chit Chatroom eating some crow.

Subject: pat, if anyone could From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 02:39:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: take crow and prepare it so it tasted good enough to eat, it would be you.

Subject: Yes Steve, More... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:32:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, I too would love to hear more of your story. Cynthia

Subject: Yup From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:00:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me, too, Steve. Might as well tell the whole story. In fact, I had this inter-departmental religion and law class when I was at law school, called 'The Rights of Groups'. My project was writing my whole 'journey'. I really got into it and wrote a long, long piece based on my understandings then in 1988. I wish I had a copy but I don't. You could do yours, though. I just know that in the writing itself a lot of things come to light you might not have thought of.

Subject: Agree, yes Steve, More... From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:58:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said previously, thanks for telling us about yourself. Please tell more as you feel to do so.

Subject: Pathological Perfectionism From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:20:21 (EST) Email Address: Kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Following is an excerpt from a report written by Daniel Shaw, a psychologist who has studied perfectionism and following a guru or master. His basic theory is that a motivation for those following a master is a kind of pathological perfectionism, attempting to devote and attain perfection which is impossible, self-defeating and a miserable experience. His theory is that this tendency is the result of distant, unresponsive, controlling parental behavior. He also says, that these people have as their greatest fear the removal of the preceived love of the master, and hence cling even more strongly almost completely out of fear, and not because they are enjoying the experience of doing so. In fact, the 'joy' and 'love' or 'bliss' people experience is the temporary removal of the fear for brief periods, sometimes in the presence of the master, usually as part of some group experience, or just through constant "reminders" that the perfect love exists. Sound familiar? I can relate to this quite a lot. I think many of us who lived in the ashrams, as well as others, had these tendencies, and I also believe I remained a premie for years despite being quite unhappy, because I feared losing whatever 'perfect love' I believed Maharaji had for me. Anyhow, here is what Shaw says in applicable part: Idolatry and pathological perfectionism can be readily observed in some spiritual paths led by self-proclaimed 'fully enlightened,' or 'perfected' masters, who are worshiped within their communities as perfect, living embodiments of God. This premise, that the master and God are one, sets a standard within the group for spiritual perfection which only the master has achieved. Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets.... While many participate in master-oriented groups for a wide variety of reasons, striving toward the goal of enlightenment through attachment to a perfected master can be particularly alluring to those seeking a miraculous antidote to intolerable feelings of worthlessness. With these people, when the shame-driven, compensatory need for redemption and salvation (and with it, the hope for relief from suffering), it is possible to observe in their attitudes and behavior the workings of an internal masochistic slave, striving desperately to meet insatiable demands for perfection from a sadistic internal master. For them, to be imperfect means to be shamefully bad and defective. Unfortunately, striving for perfection as an attempt to ward off shame only perpetuates, rather than relieves, suffering, for perfection can never be attained. People with this organizing theme who have masters or gurus, either religious or secular ones, have often found in the guru's system the perfect hook to hang all this on. These gurus demand obedience, worship and submission, which are all elements of the 'purification' process required in order to be deemed worthy of serving the master. Those who get caught up in efforts to meet these demands will find any tendency toward pathological perfectionism greatly exacerbated. Such gurus hold themselves out as an example of a person who has attained perfection, which the follower is led to believe he may eventually expect to attain as well, provided he exhibits sufficient effort and devotion. However, since absolute perfection is in fact humanly impossible to attain, there is no amount of devotion or effort that can ever be sufficient to attain what the master is said to have. The disciple, therefore, always comes up short in this situation, no matter how hard he tries, because the game is rigged. The master dangles the carrot of perfection, but gives only the painful blows of the stick of greater effort, ad infinitum. [Common in the background of people who follow masters with this kind of perfectionism] is a history are highly unstable, narcissistic parents, who were both extremely controlling and shaming, as well as neglectful and often grossly unattuned to the emotional needs of their children. Most individuals have great difficulties in thinking about and feeling connected to the traumatic emotional lives they led as children, each almost completely omitting associations to their parents and childhood experiences. Instead, they usually see their suffering and their bad luck as all their own fault, certainly not the fault of the master or guru. Some of our analysands approach spiritual leaders seeking a safe haven and a new beginning (Balint, 1932), a chance to surrender (Ghent, 1990; Benjamin; Maroda, 1999) their rigidly defended, wounded selves to a transforming, opening, healing other (Bollas, 1987). These hopes, when laid at the wrong feet, are too often met with a confusion of tongues (Ferenzci, 1933), a bait and switch maneuver, where instead of finding the longed for facilitation of a safe and transforming surrender, one is met instead with ever-increasing demands for total submission. Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an analyst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation.... I believe it is the withdrawal of love and human connectedness. Such withdrawal is an immensely powerful weapon in the hands of those who are in a position to dominate and control others. When this withdrawal has been traumatic early in life, the search for love that will never be withdrawn, for perfect, miraculous love, becomes desperate. For many, and I stress that I am not suggesting for all, the quest for enlightenment and perfection is accompanied by an underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness. It expresses a wish to magically avoid or escape agonizing disappointments in people by loving only a person or an ideal that is perceived as perfect, someone or something that seems to offer a guarantee of constant, unconditional love. Such guarantees too often come at the price of endless longing, self-punishment and submission.

Subject: It's like a composite From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:18:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dont' think all of it would describe any one person, or that everyone had all these issues, but it certainly is an aggregation of many things said by different individuals on this Forum in the one year plus that I've been reading it. Different lines just jumped out at me when I read it. Thanks for posting it. Bests, F

Subject: Why this doesn't ring true to me From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:11:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, yes, yes, another interesting theory. The problem, though, is that, as far as I recall, the Maharaji cult recruited -- successfully recruited -- people on a much simpler, broad-sweeping and less discriminate basis. One might just as well ask why any new, hot religion spreads the way they do. It's not a matter of the unique, indeed 'pathological', psyches of the new members so much as the social circumstances of the day. For example, all those early mormons joined their church for no other reason than that it was a new fad in a time and place where everyone seemed to be jumping onto one new religious bandwagon or another. When I was 18 living in Vancouver before I joined the cult, everyone I knew was either into some sort of spiritual trip or at least intrigued and talking about them. It was cool. It was exciting. Anyone who was young enough and part of the supposedly hip 'counter culture' was playing along. Why did we do acid? What was the pathology behind that? What kind of parents did hippies have? Really? Yes, I'd agree that if someone in today's typical western environment sought out a guru like Maharaji, something they'd be doing without riding any particular cultural wave, that'd likely say much about their personal motivations and what lies behind them. But that wasn't the case back then. We were just promised a very, very simple path to happiness. It was gilded with all sorts of fake eastern mystic authority, we didn't have to pay for it (or so we thought), we were challenged to see if we were 'open' enough to even check it out and -- big surprise -- we did. By the time we did that, of course, the cult had its hooks in us and many of us took years wriggling free. Simple.

Subject: Two different things From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 12:54:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I think you are mixing up the initial reason somebody might even check out Maharaji (the latest fad, cool thing to do, etc.) and certain psychological reasons why someone would get in and stay in. Plus, I think it's simplistic to say there is just 'one' reason that people would joing a cult like the Maharji cult. And, I'm sure you don't really believe that people became, and remained, Mormoms SOLELY because it was a 'new fad.' Motivations are usually a lot more complicated than that simple explanation, and there is a big difference between reasons for even listening in the first place and sticking in for years. I, for one, was not looking for anything spiritual or religious when I joined the cult. I had had enough of religion and spirituality and had mostly rejected that. True, the fact that there was a sort of coolness to the Eastern influence made it somewhat more attractive than, say, one of the Christian cults, but that wore off pretty quickly, and it was something else that kept me in, this need to strive for perfection and that M would 'perfect' me was certainly a factor, although not the only factor. But even as the author said, that isn't true for everyone.

Subject: No, I don't think so From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:32:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, As I said, I think the main reason people became premies is because of social circumstances that made Maharaji's purported spiritual answer to the mysteries of peace, love, happiness and God realization seem extremely momentous. 'The meaning of life? Yeh right, man, I'm really into that too'. In some sense, asking why people received Knowledge is like asking why they tried acid (which, as you know, Maharaji equated to Knowledge, the latter being superior in that one need never come down on it or so he claimed). As for why people jumped on the first Mormon bandwagon, here's what that New Yorker article had to say about the religious climate then: In 1820, in the little town of Manchester, New York, a fourteen-year-old named Joseph Smith had a visitation. It was a fertile and turbulent time in American religious history. Old beliefs were losing their influence, and new ones were arising that were more responsive to America's revivalist spirit. The upstate region where Smith was living was known as the 'burnt-over district,' because of the religious fevers that continually swept through it. One morning, Smith, who was trying to sort out the claims of truth that each denomination put forward, went into the woods to pray for guidance. He had no sooner knelt than he sensed the presence of a higher power, and felt himself surrounded by darkness. 'Just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the Sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me,' he wrote in a brief memoire. Out of the light stepped two 'personages' hovering in the air, whom he took to be God and Jesus -- 'beings of substance, of form, and of personality,' as Hickley [the current 'prophet' or head of the church] described them to me. Smith managed to ask these beings a question: Which of all the sects was right? 'I was answered that I must join none of tehm, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that 'all their creeds were an abomination in his sight' ' he wrote. A moment later, he found himself lying on his back, gazing up at the empty sky. He went home and told his mother, ... this next part kills me 'I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.' Sounds like a religious feeding frenzy and everyone was geting caught up in it. Well, I know that among my peers in '72, '73, that's not far from the truth either. Now, as to why people stayed, there, too, I would be very, very wary about grafting a theory about why people join, such as Ash's, onto the problem. I think most of us stayed because we believed the bullshit in the first place. Many of those who left left confused, thinking that, yes, it well might have been true but, for, some reason, they'd take their chances. I don't know how much you can read into others being more 'conservative' in the circumstances.

Subject: Speaking for yourself From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:43:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, then it didn't apply to you, Jim. But it did for many others -- just look at the ex-premies here who relate to that theory. And it IS about staying, not just joining in the first place. So many people joined, the vast majority dropping out very quickly. There had to be some other motivation to stay in, and 'believing the bullshit' included, for some at least, believing Maharaji's bullshit that we needed to be purified of our minds.] And your quote about the Mormons doesn't support your initial argument that people joined SOLEY because it was a fad. Sure, there was fertile ground then and in the early 70s, but so what? As I said, the social environment that got you to be open to listening to the trip in the first place, isn't necessarily the same as what keeps you in, despite unhappiness, repression, and all the other negative stuff that went along with it. So, I think Shaw's theory is a good one, but maybe doesn't apply to you.

Subject: Speaking for yourself isn't enough From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:54:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even if people think that the theory explains why they themselves got involved or stayed involved it doesn't mean it's true. Some people just have a real soft spot for these kinds of psychological theories, true or not. For example, look at all the people who get off on the John Bradhsaw 'shame' stuff. Yeah, they'll tell you it's their life story writ large. Doesn't mean it is, though, does it? I think the main reason people stayed is the same reason people stay in any religion: fear. But, whatever, if you want to think it was because we were pathological perfectionists, go ahead.

Subject: Fear -- exactly right From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:06:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, fear was the motivation, of even those with the pathological need for perfection, as Shaw says. Exactly right.

Subject: Re: Why this doesn't ring true to me From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:12:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, why do you have such a problem accepting ideas of theory of personality? Joe's description may not have ressonances for you; fair enough. But it certainly seems to for a lot of other people here including myself, and I'm sure a lot of us received Knowledge in the 70's... If our attraction to M and K was merely because it seemed like a cool thing to do at the time, what about all the other people of our generation (most, in fact) who heard about it at the time but got a funny feeling about it and weren't drawn in? I can think of many, and I'm afraid to say they were often the pople with the strongest sense of self. I remember them well. I could virtually predict mentally which of my friends would be open and which ones wouldn't. The people who were the most rooted in their sense of self would come along to satsang and smell a rat immediately. I just thought their egos were too big! Maybe their egos were just too healthy, although I'm afraid to say that never occurred to me at the time.. Joe that was a brilliant post, and clearly explains why some of us have such a hard time totally detaching from this whole thing, even in the face of all the hard evidence. Thank you. With love, Livia

Subject: That's not accurate From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:27:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, It's not that I 'have such a difficult time accepting theories of personality' so much as I was there and remember what happened. For example, I lived in Vancouver in a communal house of ten people. Some were from Montreal, some of the rest of us had met that core group the summer before on the 'free camp' in Jasper, Alberta in the Rockies. We were a city commune with dreams of getting land, starting the ultimate rock band, etc. A hippie grab bag not unlike many other houses in the city. When I came back from getting Knowledge in Colorado, everyone in that group plus several other friends we'd picked up along the way got Knowledge too. The only one who didn't was the one kid who died that same weekend from a freak heart attack. No, Knolwedge was a big, fat fad then and many, many people were getting sucked in. Yes, there's always a question as to why one person bites the hook and someone else might merely nibble the bait but I don't think that 'pathological' perfectionism enters into it. But then I guess I'm just not open-minded enough or something. :)

Subject: Okay, Okay, it's agreat theory, I From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:18:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Pathological Perfectionism From: Disculta To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 04:55:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post and quote, Joe. The idea of 'underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness' is very poignant. And the idea of sadistic domination being all too easily confused with benign love. That kind of sums up the mistake I made. love ktd

Subject: Erotomania and blind love From: Jean-Michel To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 03:48:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Erotomania IMO plays also a big role for many lovers/premies. They totally fantasize their master's love for them (when he doens't even know them in most instances), and keep acting and behaving like they were in love. This ends up in disappointment - but how long will it take to get there - and desire of revenge or hurting the uncaring lover .... like erotomania. Of course most disciples are not of this type, but I'm sure we'll find it in most long term premies and PAMs.

Subject: Re: Pathological Perfectionism From: PatD To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:39:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets.... Until the followers find out the master has rigged the standard in his own interest. Interesting article,but it doesn't have any bearing on my own family background. The sucker punch in all this(for me)is the physical trick of the meditation. Apologies for the short response,dinner is called.

Subject: A Must Read... From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:16:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, The analysis you posted by Shaw hits the nail on the head. Thanks. Also interesting thing to note is that children of alcoholics seek perfection in their own behavior in order to please their parent's, whether one or both are alcoholics. One may be the alcoholic, the other the co-dependent party. This causes havoc in a child's life into adulthood because, as Shaw stated about perfectionism, it's impossible to reach. Many others who have studied alcoholism in families have mentioned the perfectionist qualitiy required. I wonder about m's kids in this regard. They can't have been protected from his drinking all their lives? I wonder if anyone knows about their exposure to his alcoholic behavior? Maharaji is notorious for shaming premies. Work done is never good enough (the strive for perfection), not loving him enough (again, impossible to achieve), not devoted enough (another shaming tactic) are all ways in which m uses people to his own ends. Excellent article.

Subject: Powerful stuff From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for posting that, Joe. Shaw's ideas can be directly applied to M&K. Striving for perfection coupled with the subsequent shaming by M for never being able to achieve it is the fulcrum point that keeps his lever of devotion in operation. This brings up another point. I've noticed that, when confronted by M's lack of real authority, premies will lash out in a childish way. 'Vicious lies! You're all so hateful!', etc. Using Shaw's thesis, this could easily be explained because the challenged premie is really acting out deep childhood pschological issues and defending M&K as a way of defending their own childish perfectionism. Richard, just renewed my Junior Shrink Club membership

Subject: Re: Confusing love and abuse From: Diz To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:15:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very interesting, Joe. I think the general thesis applies in an MJ/premie context, ie that dynamics like this have a role in bringing people to MJ, and in keeping them there. Certainly applied to me to some extent. Mind you, I think much of this is unconscious - premies don't see that this is part of what's holding them in. I think it may even be part of the equation for premies who have some psychological trick for deflecting MJ's demands - and many do, or they wouldn't survive. The need for daddy's love hold people in the fold, even if they manage to tell themselves that Mj's not talking about THEM when he says that premies need to apply more effort etc. This sentence stuck out for me: 'Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an anlayst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation....' Ain't that the way it is. Premies have a hard time in service, Mj tells them they've stuffed up, they may kinda notice that there's elements of what happens around MJ that isn't all that wonderful BUT he 'gives that love'. Not to mention many exhortations to focus ONLY on your own experience, the meditation one that is, NOT on 'externals' like whether his behaviour is ethical, or whether people are getting hurt. Pretty strong hook, and one explanation why logical explanations don't necessarily move premies towards becoming ex-premies. Diz

Subject: Hi Diz From: Joe To: Diz Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are doing well. I think you are right about premies mostly being unconscious that this is a motivation for keeping them in the cult, no matter how unhappy striving for perfection makes them. It reminds me of stories of people in abusive relationships who amazingly think they 'deserve' the abuse or that it's necessary to 'improve' them and that the abuser is doing them some kind of service by abusing and belittling them. I thought what you said was interesting: I think it may even be part of the equation for premies who have some psychological trick for deflecting MJ's demands - and many do, or they wouldn't survive. What kind of psychological tricks are you thinking of? I can recall accepting all the put-downs Maharaji inflicted on us as devotees who couldn't get it together to surrender or devote, about how we were so confused and that it was the general state of humans in this dark age, to always get distracted, and I kind of used that to rationalize why I was unhappy and needed to be 'perfected.' It seemed that the worse I felt about myself and my ability to do much of anything, the more I had to cling to Maharaji and beg him to 'perfect' me. It was so insidious, because the more miserable I was (the opposite of what was promised by Maharaji which got me to receive knowledge in the first place), the more I put on blinders and dug in. So much in the cult is internalized, but there exists this the illusion that people really are making objective evaluations of their 'experience' and their involvement. If they really did, they wouldn't be involved anymore. That's the process that finally breaks the bond. I know I had to get completely out of the cult before I realized that the abusive, strive-for-perfection phenomenon had been going on. While I was still in, towards the end, I just had a vague feeling something was very wrong, but I wasn't aware of what it really was.

Subject: Tricks and vague feelings From: Diz To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 02:07:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, good to hear from you. I don't think ALL premies had 'psychological tricks' for side-stepping MJ's demands. I didn't, I took it all seriously - seemed the only sincere thing to do. I suspect many ex-premies were the same, and that it's partly because we sincerely tried to follow what MJ said that we ended up figuring out that it wasn't real healthy. But I do know premies who would say things like 'how come you take Maharaji so seriously?' I remember once Maharaji himself complained that some premies were taking him literally - this made me mad, because for goodness sake he never STOPPED telling us to listen to him and not our minds, in various different ways. Including all those stories of devotees who used their own judgement when the Master did something really dippy, like using a bucket with holes to get water out of a well, and ended up caste into darkness. Seemed to me he wanted it both ways - to be the one that was always right AND to not have to take any responsibility if he wasn't. This type of mind-fuck was at the core of why I left. However for some premies, not talking MJ literally is an 'out' - if MJ says you should meditate an hour a day, and you don't feel like it, well that's cool. I've heard premies say that MJ's words may be contradictory, or confusing, but that that's just part of the process of muddling the mind so the heart can come through - kinda like the 'lila' argument. And then there's the argument someone was running below that since nothing matters except the experience of K, that what MJ does doesn't matter. I guess it's only a small step then to saying that what he SAYS doesn't matter either. I do think that many premies, particularly those that get close to MJ and see first-hand that he's demanding to an extent that they wouldn't accept from anyone else, have various ways to deal with it. We could probably think of many more. Otherwise what are they doing still there? PS I did put paragraphs in this post, but they haven't shown up in the preview. Apologies if they're not in the post.

Subject: Deserves a place on EPO From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:51:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Insightful observations there, Joe Let's not forget that the selfsame carrot and stick scam which has profitted so many self-styled gurus and avatars, is painfully evident as being an integral part of almost every orthodox religion too. Remember the 'unworthy sinner' that Xtianity (and many other religions) forces one to identify with? And what of the self-effacement that is implicit in the Buddhist ideal of no-ego? Such exhortations to submissiveness actually exascerbate our inherant feelings of 'worthlessness' (ours, courtesy of a history of having powerful religions in control of our various societies) which, as the good Dr Shaw says, cause many people to seek out these 'Saviour' figures in the first place. As for the gurus and avatars themselves - well, guess what game they're playing too?

Subject: Cleansing From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:09:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm also a recovering Roman Catholic and so I know what you are saying about the 'sinner' element being part of the Catholic ideology. It was indoctrinated into me as a little kid that my soul had to be purified to make me worthy of salvation. Have you seen the movie 'Mermaids?' Whynona Rhyder plays the daughter of a wild woman played by Cher. The daughter is always striving for religious perfection, and humiliated by her mother. That was me until I was about 12, although without the Cher-like mother. I went to mass every day for years, gave up candy for Lent, and confessed all my sins. But then by about 13 or so the desires got too great, and then I had to accept that I couldn't do it. It was then I was on my way to secularism until Maharaji came along. Huge relapse there. Of course, Whynona realizes she is a lot like her mother when she meets her hunky boyfriend. I really liked that movie.

Subject: Re: Cleansing From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:48:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Joe! I really liked that movie, too. My husband says I cook like Cher in Mermaids--always serving appetizers and party food. Do you ever watch the show 'Six Feet Under'? One character Michael seems to suffer a bit from religious perfectionsim --- though in the last couple of episodes he seems to be getting over that. Take Care, Jennifer

Subject: Six Feet Under From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:57:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jennifer. Yeah, Cher was always serving snack food, and bizarre hors de vours like hot dogs rolled up in bacon and marshmallows on toothpicks. Appetizers can be great. Be sure to invite me to your next party. :) I think Six Feet Under is one of the most creative shows on TV, although I haven't seen it lately. Yeah, Michael is striving for perfection. Good luck. Thank God for HBO.

Subject: HBO--very OT from goomradji From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:51:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The season premiere was Sunday. It was good. Without giving too much away, the mom was reading a book about how to be accepting of her feelings towards her gay offspring (Michael finally came out to her) and she made a total ass out of herself trying to be 'open' about sex with her kids. I was laughing out loud! (Claire gets in a good line about Jane Fonda.) HBO is the only TV I have time to watch these days: Sopranos, Sex in the City (my personal favorite, because I want to be Samantha when I grow up) and 6 feet under. Television has come a long way since 'Leave it to Beaver.' BTW, the party is here everynight that I cook, so come any time. Mississippi Sin Dip, Chili Con Queso, Jezebel Sauce, Blue Cheese Bites...Food should be fun! snicker. Jennifer

Subject: Six Feet Under correx - OT From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:59:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David is the gay funeral director. He's played by Michael C. Hall. I really dig (pun intended) Six Feet Under. I think the show is primarily about relationships and secondarily about death which IMHO is the most taboo subject today. Every character is wonderfully flawed and the stories are engaging. Six Feet Under www.hbo.com/sixfeetunder/cast_and_crew/index.shtml

Subject: Re: Six Feet Under correx - OT From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are right, Richard! David is Michael's character's name :) I agree that the show exposes flaws and dysfuctions in characters and in relationships between people primarily. When they get into talking about some of the things the funeral business does to corpses, it makes me want to be cremated. Not like it will really matter...

Subject: religion has always kept the priest in power From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:16:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and what is the Maha, but 'SuperPriest' personified! PS I'm aware that a lot of well-intentioned people have trust and faith in their various creeds. i just wish they'd examine them with a bit more objectivity.

Subject: Roman Catholics... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:29:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am also a child of the RC church. I left it at age 15 because I just couldn't stand the way priests and nuns behaved. Have you ever noticed how so many of them speak the same way, their intonation, the 'above it all' attitude? I have. Yuck! One of my sisters told me that in the 'old school of teaching priests,' prior to Vatican II, priests-in-training were taught not to touch women because women were considered unclean. I had never known that and was astonished. This particular sister of mine knows a lot about this topic. Now with all the pedophilic priests in the news, whose victims have been boys, it makes sense. In New England, Boston, in particular, there has been a lot or reports in the news about these priests and how the church protects them. They (the RC church) behaves as if these abusers don't have to answer to the law of the state(s), but the law of the church. A we'll take care of our own mentality. The archbishop of the Boston diocese (sp?) refused to step down recently, explaining that ''we must keep this and deal with this in the congregational family.'' So they've set up a toll free line, confidential (yeah right) for any abused child or adult to report these priest(s). This sound familiar?

Subject: Got to learn to weed. From: Sulla To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:57:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think any human being, including a priest can turn to a pedophile, only because they were told not to touch a woman because they are unclean. A pedophile is a sick person. You can't say that priests, or coaches or teacher are pedophiles, but you can say that a pedophile always finds the way to be in touch with children, the object of their sexual desire and obsession. For that reason pedophiles find jobs as teachers, priests, coaches, or any other one in which they are in contact with children and people who trust them. I have had my crisis with the Catholic church also, and I was never a fanatic one. By now I don't even know if God exists and don't have any impulse to find out, I wouldn't know from where to start anyway. But as I remember the few nuns and priests I didn't like too much (I never said I was perfect) I also remember the very smart ones, the nice, wise, open minded and strong ones who taught me a lot of good things and principles that I also learned at home, the ones that made me decide to leave M. after I knew the real truth about him. I also remember the nuns from the mother Theresa of Calcutta center, where my younger brother, just finishing school, was doing volunteer work. They were so vibrant, full of life, their eyes so bright, some of them very young and always smiling and laughing. Their work was to do errands in the worst of neighborhoods to find and bring the neediest amongst the needy to the Center. They had many children who suffered of retardation and were found living in chorals like animals, or abused by their poor and ignorant parents, this being many times the cause of their mental sicknesses. They taught them to eat by themselves and took them under their care, taking them to the movies and places any normal children like to go to. My brother once told us how the nuns carried to the Center, a man that they found almost dying in the middle of the garbage, and after pulling off of his body, one by one, a great amount of white worms, they bathed him and put him in bed with clean clothes. He didn't last long, he was rotting, but surrounded by those who were not his relatives but took care of him until he died. And the only reason they did it is because they were good souls who heard the voice of love from their hearts. And that kind of love, you won't see in words coming out of dry mouths and falling on the floor as empty droppings. It is love in action, in motion, it belongs to the brave, who see no limits, religious or not, it sings a song that overflows barriers, flying always higher and beyond our own comprehension. Not all that we are not capable of doing or that we cannot comprehend has to be a task impossible to be accomplished by others. Don't let our ignorance destroy what remains good, we better learn to pull out the bad without removing the good with it. We are in a process of evolution, we've got to be wise, to learn to weed in the right way, there is enough bad in this world already.

Subject: Re: Got to learn to weed. From: PatD To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:21:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is love in action, in motion, it belongs to the brave, who see no limits, religious or not, it sings a song that overflows barriers, flying always higher and beyond our own comprehension. Great words: without vision the people perish.

Subject: er, just for the record ... From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:17:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was brought up (or rather an attempt at indoctrination was made on me by the) C of E. (Church of England) - i.e. to many Catholics that makes me an unwitting apostate and enemy of the true Church. I would have thought that a common respect for J.C. would have led to a less antagonistic relationship between the two faiths! But that kind of enmity seems to be pretty common in religious history. Thank (thinks... thank who? ... not God, nor Christ, nor Mr Bean) anyway, thank our lucky stars we don't need our lack of religion to be the cause of any prejudice between us. Maybe that's part of the appeal of atheism? Who knows. Anyway, back to the topic you raised: the paedophilic tendencies of the priesthood seem to be out of proportion to the majority of the population, wouldn't you say? Which leads to the question: what is it about the role of priest/mahatma that makes it attract the likes of Jadgeo and other abusers? Big question.

Subject: Pedophiles/Jagdeo From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:45:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pedophiles are notorious for getting themselves into positions in which they have access to children. Makes sense, no? Priests have both access to children and usually have the respect of the parents who would never believe they would abuse their kids. Same for Jagdeo, but Jagdeo seemed to have an even more deliberate modus. Apparently Jagdeo held special 'childrens' satsang' at which he molested some kids and then he seems to have also singled out little girls for more private sexual abuse. What a bastard. Even more than Catholic parishoners, premie parents were much more susceptible to Jagdeo's deception, because of the absolute nature of the Maharaji cult, and the cult-belief that mahatmas like Jagdeo were holy men who were experiencing total bliss, and that Maharaji was "taking care of everything." In the case of Jagdeo, Maharaji appears to have done little or nothing, and it's almost beyond belief that he didn't know about it. Some say that the fact that Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate contributes to pedophilia among priests, but I don't believe that. Many pedophiles are married (mostly) men. But I think some men become priests partly because they don't have a socially acceptable sexual outlet, so it's a way to avoid dealing with it, until that becomes impossible. So, if a priest is attracted to children he might become a priest in order to try to purge those unacceptable desires. Then perhaps the desires become too great. I think that's one reason there are so many gay priests, probably about 40% or more. If they can't accept being gay, they might enter the priesthood as a way to avoid facing it. I think studies show that most pedophiles were sexually abused as children, most likely by their own parents.

Subject: Re: er, just for the record ... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:30:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cq, Anyway, back to the topic you raised: the paedophilic tendencies of the priesthood seem to be out of proportion to the majority of the population, wouldn't you say? Which leads to the question: what is it about the role of priest/mahatma that makes it attract the likes of Jadgeo and other abusers? In answer to the first question, I simply don't know. The rate of child sex abuse in America is quite high, but not everyone who sexually abuses is a pedophile. For instance, an incest perp isn't necessarily a pedophile. Unfortunately, there is a myth that abusing priests are homosexual, thus they choose boys. It's just not true. The majority of males who sexually abuse any child, including boys, is heterosexual. That's one myth that just makes me see red. And of course, it has nothing to do with sex. In response to your second question I believe it is because these Mahatma pedophiles or other sex offenders feel, and rightly so, protected by their status, whether it's a cult or a mainstream religion like the RCC. It's certainly true in the M cult. Look at how much work EV and M have done to cover up the Jagdeo matter? Same in the church. Cynthia who doesn't have all answers but wants them

Subject: Re: er, just for the record ... From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:24:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as brought up (or rather an attempt at indoctrination was made on me by the) C of E. (Church of England) - i.e. to many Catholics that makes me an unwitting apostate and enemy of the true Church. You're 40 yrs out of date on that one.

Subject: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt) From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:34:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt)

Subject: Re: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt) From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 16:24:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those attitudes have largely gone. Now they lend each other their Churches where necessary & generally get on. Maybe not so much in places where the happy clappies are revving it up,but out in the sticks the old diehards of both persuasions now realise they have more in common with one another than with anyone else. Ecumenism is the new 'I spit on your grave', sad really,as there are very few younger devotees around to reap the benefit. Village life in Old England ,dontcha love it,at least we don't live in one where polishing the dustbins is a social requirement. When the townies stop people chasing Charlie(the fox),that's when big doo doo will happen. Sorry to digress.

Subject: Maybe I just know the wrong people From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 03:43:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking time to explain that, Pat. Perhaps change happens a bit slower up here in the North-East. One acquaintance of mine asked me just last week whether I was Catholic or Protestant. Atheist, I told him. Oh, that's all right, he said, as long as you're not one of those damned Protestants. (Admittedly this guy is a bit of an eccentric - he even wants a return to Jacobism and the Divine Right of Kings!).

Subject: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:18:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was just cruising round EPO and found these great lines on instructions to MCs introducing a program. I don't know how old this stuff is but it is certainly my experience that MCs treat the audience like complete simpletons, simpletons that are not expected to have any real questions and to be treated with total disdain. Also the instruction not to repeat, clarify, interpret or add to Maharaji's message must go down as an all-time sick joke or evidence that Maharaji thinks his followers are dangerous to his so called mission. ============================== IV. Things to avoid: A. Repeating, clarifying, interpreting or adding to M's message. B. Being a salesperson; coaching or encouraaging anyone. C. Soliciting and/or answering questions from the audience. D. Using example, stories, personal statements, humor. E. Overloading the audience with too much information. VII. Dealing with questions: A. Do not directly answer questions regarding M's message, such as, 'What is thirst?', 'What does he mean by Knowledge?'. Direct them to continue to listen to M. B. Respond to questions regarding informatin and schedules (be aware of any upcoming instructor visits and events M is attending). Monkey Read, Monkey Say www.ex-premie.org/pages/scripts.htm

Subject: Ironic, isn't it From: Sir Dave :p To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that the premies probably know far more about knowledge or meditation than Maharaji will ever know. The day the premies were silenced was the day that propogation stopped, never to be started again. It was people who spead the message, never Maharaji.

Subject: Re: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:54:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spooky and how very different to the early programmes I used to attend that were full of magic, laughter and sponteneity. What on earth went wrong that Maharaji stopped trusting the premies to be able to talk about their experience? It was premies talking in a particularly inspired, really rather moving way about their experience that first attracted me. It took me rather longer to enjoy listening to Maharaji talking about it, to be honest. Does anybody know why he stopped trusting the premies to be able to talk about it? Surely the point at which propagation was at its height was when the premies did all the talking! And the point at which premies began to drift off was when he stopped us from giving satsang... Love, Livia

Subject: The Master and the Doo-Doo Ladus From: Pullaver To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:52:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia. Yeah, it's funny how Maharaji decided that it was all the premies' fault for the lack of propogation. In his wisdom they are responsible for the attrition rate as well. The master's perfect arrogance and ignorance must be on full display then, in reaching the following conclusion: Propogation isn't happenning because after thirty years of experience premies simply have no idea of what they are talking about. This might be so but what an indictment! Fifteen years ago it wasn't happenning because of all the eastern concepts they were responsible for spreading. In Maharaji's world it is his followers who have been scapegoated as being responsible for the decline in revenues, er, membership. In Maharaji's world, Maharaji himself couldn't possibly be responsible for the lack of interest. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with his profligate lifestyle, his constant pleas for donations, his pattern of using people and abandoning them when he revises his agenda or decides he doesn't need them. Take heart though, we are in end game. Finances have dried up. The organization is being let go. Maharaji has now nothing to hide behind and blame. It's now clearly all on his shoulders and he's in desperation mode. The spin is out there that he has already in fact completed his mission. So he thinks his derriére is covered and so it is, with his own doo-doo ladus.

Subject: Re: The Master and the Doo-Doo Ladus From: Livia To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:31:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pullaver, Well said. And when you come to think of it, why did M not see his staggering wealth as an obstacle to people becoming interested? It certainly put off most of the people I knew, who would probably have been a lot more interested if he had lived a simple lifestyle. I thought at the time that those people were letting their concepts get in the way. I suppose M had enough people at the time to keep him in the style he had become accustomed not to worry too much about the rest... Makes you think, huh? Love, Livia

Subject: Opulence, Arrogance and Filaments From: Pullaver To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:17:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, and as has been noted here a few times, Maharaji himself has always been the biggest obstacle to any kind of 'propogation'. The fact is that had he listened to Mishler and not gone the devotional/opulent route he probably would have done really well in the west like TM or est in their hay day. Without all the people he badly burned with his arrogance, crazy schemes and concepts - who knows - there might never have been a need for EPO. Oh well, his loss our gain. Maharaji has the classic Krishna complex, common to the offspring of avatars, especially if they were brought up in India and ascended to the throne at 8 years old. Even a high priced Beverley Hills psychiatrist to the stars couldn't cure it. A curious facet of this disease is never being able to admit to being wrong about anything. True to form he has unleashed his anger and blame on the very followers who stuck around way past bed-time to listen. Most people I know (myself included) were simply embarassed to say that it was him they were following. Mentioning his name, meant having to launch into a lengthy defence of why he is not a greedy, fraudulent con. I used to think that this was just part of the lila. Shit, my mother was right all along. How embarassing.

Subject: Jesus, you musta gone to diff satsangs than me From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:12:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the satsangs I heard were about projecting what a premie was supposed to be and was way off beam, and obviously fake, loads of hyperbole about gm, and loads of leakage that they were fucked up & unhappy. About one in ten I reckon was from peeps having strong meditation experiences and integrating it in their life. From my perspective it also seemed that a lot of people used it as a crutch to keep their faith going, when I thought the faith if it happened, ought to come from the experience. At the time it made total sense to me that he stopped it. The only period I excuse from this was 76-77 when it got a lot more honest and real, and the faking it level dropped drastically. But then he was in a right double bind, since the practice of k was never his priority, so how could he make it so. If the practice of k HAD been the core, then there would have been no need for the messianism and personality cult. If the focus had been on k, and gm was for real then the whole cult would have been a lot more glowy, and naturally self-selling, as any real product is. Even then he knew how fake the personality cult was and that it needed to be hidden. Poor sod, what an emotionally barren existence he must have.

Subject: Shmucks and peas From: Sir Dave :p To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:09:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad satsang stopped here in 1983 because when it did, I was painfully awoken from my stupor and thrown back into the real world from whence I'd come back in 1972 (when I received K). But those satsangs (not the Maha's) did have a real value and were the only thing which created communities and of course, devotion to M and practise of K. Much of the satsang was crap, especially the heavy sort. But then much of it wasn't. I remember Chris somebody-or-other who was married (partnered?) to that nice midwife lady (I always forget names, never faces). One night I remember in the Palace of Peas flat, he gave satsang and I was blown out and we all were. I can't remember a word of what he was on about but we all were high. Except one guy, who suddenly got up and left after telling Chris he was a shmuck or something. One day, I was with the girlfriend of the guy who'd walked out and I gave her satsang or kinda just talked to her and she said she was higher than she's ever been, even with the Maha. So what the hell was going on? What was that communication that we'd tapped into? I used to get as high as a kite when I gave satsang.

Subject: satsang trippyness From: hamzen To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:05:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's why I got so pissed off, because when it was good, it was really really good, and good for me was really trippy. Call me naive and an old hippy, but we were pushing our conceptual boundaries/reality models, trying to break out of social conventions, trying to talk from a place of love & the heart, honesty, truth, trying not to be judgemental, trying to lessen ego control mechanisms(all at its best I mean), when you've got that happening you start releasing loads of chemical shit of a certain kind. The same stuff you're talking about from satsang I got more from meditation, but I'm certain it's the same or related shit. Patrick W was talkin elsewhere about how he didn't meditate for ages, nor smoke dope after he left. Then when he starts meditating again, getting a good vibe, he suddenly starts thinking of smokin hash again. Same shit. And in the end isn't it just an appreciation of how mind blowingly amazing it is that life exists at all, that the universe with all it's magic exists. Look at love, how many people you known who've got really solid relationships that have lasted, whose communication style you really respect, where there is a load of self worth and equality? In my experience very VERY rare, I've met the two couples in the last ten years and they are the first ones. Yet that drive is way out of proportion to the likelihood of it being reached for each of us, yet we consistently deny the likely reality outcome. Love, being open and receptive, they're biological basics I reckon, whose drive is phenomenal, as all biology is. And I don't think for a moment that lessens it. And I think coming from the sixties culture that had large overlaps conceptually with that be here now, mind of a child, everything is bollox socially and politically meant we were VERY open to altered states, throw in acid (and VERY strong acid at that) and you've got a reality model that is unbelievably experientially based, at the expense of other concerns as we now know. That shit about the mind of a child etc, was all about that surely, ie at it's best, I remember as a kid realizing I was losing some fundamental experiential level when `I began to adapt to social conventions, and it bugged me. I didn't want to lose that trippy nature of the moment, REALLY feeling alive, not just sleep walking and adapting to social pressures. I really do think trhat really trippy shit was down to that experiential naivete of ours, when it was working, but then so was that hippy social chaos too. What I like about this generation, especially those who would have been hippies in the sixties is how much they've learnt to integrate the two sides, and produced a different kind of hybrid, that superficially is less, but is much more consistent and long lasting.

Subject: The Lies of Omission From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right Liva. I was talking to somebody recently about how in the old days, at least the cult was pretty honest about things. People found out about devotion, and darshan, Arti, rituals, and Maharaji's wealth right from the start. We didn't try to omit things because we thought it would turn people off. Premies could give satsang, sing, etc., and express whatever they wanted. Plus, we were right out there with who we thought Maharaji was. He was the perfect master. He was the incarnation of god, come to show you god, so we said. But no more. Now 'interested' people are lied to by the Maharji cult. They are not told about all the 'devotion' stuff until they are hooked enough to want this supposed wonderful 'experience' so they might swallow it just to get knowledge. It's so bad and so controlled that even if an aspirant or 'new person' were to ask about this stuff, or even about knowledge, the premie isn't supposed to tell them. They are told to just watch a video. It's so deceitful if you think about it, and so insulting to premies, some of whom have practicied knowledge for 30 years but are considered incapable of even talking about anything other than the 'possibility' of knowledge existing, not their actual experience.

Subject: Re: The Lies of Omission From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:15:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point Joe re: it being insulting to premies to be told not to talk about M&K. A few years ago, we had some good friends over and the talk turned to mediation and such. We mentioned M&K and they said they would like to know more. For fun, we showed them a video of Holi festival in the Orange Bowl and they went wild. We had to tell them that was part of the past and then showed them an intro video. They responded in a lukewarm way and were disappointed M&K were so bland. They were enthusiastic about what they saw as our own fondness for M&K but were turned off by the canned sales pitch. Another friend expressed interest in K so she went to an intro video with my wife. She was still interested so she showed up on her own for another video. She was turned away because it was not an intro night. She also wanted to go see M when he was here but was again rejected because it was PWK only. Her response was that it seemed like an exclusive, secretive cult to her. If M's message was so great, why hide it? M has insulated himself so much that it is now all but impossible to receive K. I can't wait to see the much anticipated media coverage EV has been teasing the PWKs with.

Subject: Re: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Jerry To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:01:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like the answering questions part. What kind of 'knowledge' is this if you never learn anything so you can answer other people's questions about it?

Subject: To the good Deputy From: Richard II To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:30:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said in one of your coming out posts that as a premie there are two conditions concerning the EPO accusations, with each of them giving rise to different courses of actions. You said, if the accusations being leveled by ex’s are not true then this site is doing a disservice to man, and if they are true there would be no alternative but to stop following him. I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master. To entertain this possibility you need to have an appreciation for what a Master means to a student. And to understand that, you need to be a student. If I ask what in life matters, the responses to this question would be entirely subjective. That is because we each have our own reference point that determines what is valuable to us. To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what? Okay, let me get poetic for a minute. To see what occupies the void. To hear what is heard in silence. To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Does this kind of stuff matter to non-students? Of course not. Most people don’t believe such things are even possible, so they don’t value it. Instead they come up with other icons to revere: country, community, family –- you know the story. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? If you were to believe for a moment the scriptures and poets who describe these things as being the true riches of life, then you would have to value them absolutely -– intellectually at least. So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. So Dep, here’s what happens. You stop experiencing. Maybe you stop practicing. Or maybe you practice but those nagging doubts don’t let you go much deeper a freckle. That stops you from believing. Then like most other people in this world, that stops you from valuing. And what then of the Master? That’s easy. At first he just gets relegated to the same level as the rest of our leaders. And if he fits our model for a leader – which is probably a collective mix of political, religious, professional, and cultural leadership -- we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. So here’s an interesting thought. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Something would have to give, eh Dog?

Subject: So in other words you are saying........ From: Tonette To: Richard II Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:17:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The master shows the big Truth. He is 'priceless,' therefore it doesn't matter what he says, doesn't matter what he does, doesn't matter what he is. The meditation, the knowledge, is the big truth and to hell with the rest of the human race. It's only my experience that is reality and Maharaji has ownership of it. I gotta have this master, and a fine example he is, to stay on this path of the big truth. 'That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.' Yeah, right. Ever heard the saying, actions speak louder than words? I guess it wouldn't matter if one of your children was raped by one of his instructors and 'the master' just brushed it away. I guess it doesn't matter that he can't even be bothered to read his fan mail from premies. Bonk every woman from here to Calcutta while married. Hit a stupid person on a bicycle? He is so above any decent accountability or honesty. He's the MASTER! And what's with this enamouring of the experience of meditation? Listening to the buzz of your nervous system, that's truth to you? That's love, that's the purpose of your life? You need to get out more. I feel sorry for you. Your belief system is well armored by years of conditioning and investment. Gad, you are in a fix allright. You could just as easily believe, with the proper dose of propaganda that Ted Bundy was a nice guy, the Pope is truly a 'holy man,' the Earth is the center of the universe. Good luck.

Subject: Re: So in other words you are saying........ From: R2 To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:17:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess it wouldn't matter if one of your children was raped by one of his instructors and 'the master' just brushed it away. You were not there when he heard about the accusations against Jagdeo. You don't know how he took the news, or what he did about it. You are therefore in no position to make the statement, ''the master' just brushed it away'. I guess it doesn't matter that he can't even be bothered to read his fan mail from premies. First of all, premies are not in some fan club. So except for the likes of Michael Jackson, where do you get off demanding he read your freaking letters? I mean, did he ask you to send them? Second, just how busy a man do you think he is? Do you think he's just lounging pool-side and instead of reading People he should be reading your letter? Third, and I'll speak for myself, every answer I ever got regarding Knowledge was through its practice. Writing letters to him felt good, mostly because it clarified to ME what I felt and wanted to say to him. Whether he read it after that was kinda irrelevant. Of course it would of been cool to have him send me a reply, but that would have been a bonus. Bonk every woman from here to Calcutta while married. Every woman? God, how you folks like to exagerate! Look, it has been reported he had affairs. Why the f--k do you care so much? What moral high-ground do you so proudly occupy that you are in a position to judge such things? Hit a stupid person on a bicycle? He is so above any decent accountability or honesty. He's the MASTER! Tell me, have you been to India? Do you know the customs there. Do you understand the dynamic within the social hierarchy. Just an FYI, in many cases a man of influence in India cannot afford honesty and accountability. Why? Because the system is corrupt. You Tonette have no idea how one navigates those currents in order to survive. YOU try baring your soul to a system fueled by corruption and see where you end up. Besides, the man's family was compensated far beyond what is the norm in India. Whether Maharaji fit your western mould and did the 'right thing' or not, made no the difference to the family, or the man for that matter. And what's with this enamouring of the experience of meditation? Listening to the buzz of your nervous system, that's truth to you? That's love, that's the purpose of your life? You need to get out more. You clearly are oblivious to what lies within you my dear. You need to get in more. You could just as easily believe, with the proper dose of propaganda that Ted Bundy was a nice guy, the Pope is truly a 'holy man,' the Earth is the center of the universe. Hey Tonette, lighten up! If you've got any answers share them. If not, then at least don't spread vitriol. In the end, it's how much kindness you sow that will determine the riches you attained in life.

Subject: Lighten up? Follow your own advice Richard, From: Tonette To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:42:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, Richard, do you ever go by Dick? You speak of kindness relating to riches, what does that have to do with Knowledge? I don't see lots of kindness and nuture or any good works arising from Maharaji and his mission. Can you tell me anything that he has done for others? Other than showing people how to plug up their senses, if you want to count K as the ultimate kindness. That aside, what has he done? Name me some of the kindness he has given to someone that wasn't attached to some sort of reward. Any example will do. I for instance, to clue you into what I may be looking for, do kind acts because well, that's just the way I am. A few examples: Making a dinner for the children's choir once a month Sending maternity clothes to a 16 year old pregnant girl $24 dollars a month to sponsor a child in poverty Contributed to the 9-11 disaster Donating blood ect So, Dick, I mean Richard, with my meager lot compared to Maharaji's millions, surely he has been able to contribute something really noteworthy. What might that be? You're in the loop, you know him so very well, tell me what he has done. Listen, you can believe anything you want and will. Some people just have better developed ethics and morals. You want to invest in and nuture your little trip with Maharaji and the all powerful Truth (snicker)he reveals, has given you, be my guest. But in case you haven't noticed this is a chat site for people who no longer BELIEVE! From the wealth of testimony recorded here on a daily basis, the information on EPO, the paper documentation and the fact that I was there and I did hear and see specific behavior on M's part only a fool or a cult addled moron would continue to empower the likes of M. Believe what you want, you're not hurting anyone I suppose, but why not take your theory to Life's Great for some real dialogue? Keep spreading that kindness Richard, or is it Dick? I felt so much sincerity and truth and love and kindness in the way you replied to me. Look at what Knowledge and Maharaji has done for you. Isn't it great? A real evolution. Pathetic really

Subject: Thanks Richard, but..... From: Bryn To: Richard II Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:31:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...your post is interesting to me, but not, I'm afraid, because of its content. Rather because of the valiant attempt it represents to appear rational/logical. Mike Dettmers does tidy your thinking up politely and helpfully I have to say. So what then remains that is so interesting to me in your post? It is your evident enthusiasm to hold forth in the grand manner on the subject of life the universe and everything, armed with such a flimsy and unexamined set of concepts. I realise that they don't appear as such to you, and that I probably sound patronising; but nevertheless there is a remarkable difference between the authority with which you obviously want to express yourself and the depth of insight at your disposal. Speaking as someone who spent years clinging to every word of the master, I recognise the above limitations from personal 'experience'. I have to tell you that Maharaji deals his devotees a very low hand indeed when it comes to playing in the real world of conceptual expression of inner 'experience'. I was a victim of over-validating his platitudes, sayings and thought forms and I think you are too. He is a charismatic man whose statements derive meaning from his charisma and your relationship to it. Their apparent ability to stand on their own is only apparent, and thats why your post is interesting. You obviously regard (as I did) his intellectual guidance as an adequate vehicle with which to attempt to present your own experience of the world. What you actually convey is a mix of naivety, enthusiasm for self-publicity, and signs of having been severely duped.That is what your post actually and in reality proclaims to the world about your master's influence on it and you. Did you know that? No malice here intended,love. Bryn Ps.About the side effects of devotional listening. It used to be said by aspirant co-ordinaters and instructors that the name of the game was to get people to 'love Maharaji', and all else would follow. I can see the truth in this. But it is obvious now, that he does not make sense unless you DO love him. The sad consequence for many an enthusiastic 'student' is that their master's worked-in thought forms, words and structures are absolutely incomprehensible in the world at large. Bye again.

Subject: Another possibility From: Michael Dettmers To: Richard II Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 06:58:20 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Richard II, as you’ve raised the subject of considering other possibilities, it might be worth looking at some of the 'taken for granted' assumptions contained in your post that pre-date the arrival of Maharaji in your live. For instance, you say, “To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what?” You continue, “So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever.” What appears to go unquestioned in your argument is a deeply engrained and unexamined belief about how human beings “know” anything, let alone that we can know “truth” or “reality.” I suggest you put Maharaji aside for the moment and take some time to examine your concepts of truth, reality and perfection? We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. In the old paradigm, 'reality' is considered to be permanent and external. Change happens within this assumed permanent reality. In the new paradigm, reality lives in language, the language of a community. The world is a permanent emerging conversation in which commitment and interpretation happen. It is a world of possibilities. In the old paradigm, language describes reality. It conveys representations of internal realities (thoughts, feelings, beliefs etc.) as well as external realities (nature, behaviors, institutions etc.). In the new paradigm, language brings forth reality. The old paradigm emphasizes prediction and control. Information is crucial. The new paradigm underlines anticipation and skillful coping. This change is essentially a shift in emphasis from accumulating descriptions and representations towards an emphasis on action. Committed communication lies at the center of the new paradigm. The old paradigm does not recognize the basic human phenomenon of 'cognitive blindness' -- not knowing and, at the same time, being unaware of one's ignorance. The new paradigm acknowledges cognitive blindness and, therefore, a new opening for learning arises. In the old paradigm, leadership is associated with charisma, omniscience and paternalism. In the new paradigm, leaders are like gardeners. They nurture other people and they produce the mood of a community. The essence of the new paradigm is the emergence of a new human being. Emphasis is on action, innovation and creativity. Human beings are assumed to be historical creatures whose identities are not permanent, but open for design. We invent and re?invent our identities in a 'dance' of coordination of action with other members of the communities in which we work and live. In the new paradigm, there is no such thing as a reality independent of language. Let me make this point clear. I am not saying that there is no reality beyond language. I am not denying the existence of an external reality. What I am saying is that about that reality we know nothing, since all knowledge itself is completely linguistic. Reality always shows up within a 'linguistic clearing.' Language also constitutes significant dimensions of our reality. Social realities are normally linguistically generated. We go to war because we hold certain interpretations; we fall in love and build our relationships and marriage out of stories that we make in language; we play power games such as politics from our capacity to generate new realities through language; we develop our identities as stories about ourselves; and whenever we develop a written narrative as in a text, we are also inventors of reality. Within this emerging understanding, Maharaji is increasingly irrelevant. We no longer need leaders who claim to be the embodiment of truth or the keepers and dispensers of ultimate reality. Once we transcend these concepts, we will not longer seek leaders upon whom to project these illusions.

Subject: Just a small comment From: Tonette To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 09:52:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To a lenghty, seemingly intellectual post. I disagree with just about everything you wrote in your post. What hyperbole. An example would be; 'In the old paradigm, language describes reality. It conveys representations of internal realities (thoughts, feelings, beliefs etc.) as well as external realities (nature, behaviors, institutions etc.). In the new paradigm, language brings forth reality.' The author of this theory left out one very important detail, language arises from the intellect and is devised to express and describe the reality that is happening within a specific time period. So, in actuality, language is defined by the period of time in which it was formed. It is language, not reality, that is continually shifting, always has and always will. This is not new. An example would be the continual rise and fall of slang, 'cool man, far out, tripping, what's up', to name just a few. Reality, and our intrepretation of it, our definition of it, has changed, maybe(if at all), due to man's explosion of growth in science and math. Language serves to describe our new understandings. Language will never bring forth a new reality. Our intellect and science will continue to change reality, well maybe not change, but redefine it. For instance, 6 million people haven't died of the flu this year. Language is just a servant, a bystander, a historical marker of man's progress, it has not, nor will it ever change reality. You've got it backwards. Anyway, you can believe anything you want. I'm sure this little twist that interests you so, serves you well in your line of work. But to me it's alot of mumbo-jumbo and downright hogwash. Lots of talk, big words, woven expertly. Tonette

Subject: Just a small reply From: Michael Dettmers To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:02:28 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: It would appear that you subscribe to the passive interpretation of language - namely that it is the symbolic representation of reality. In other words, reality exists and language allows us to speak about it or describe it. To emphasize your point you state that, “language will never bring forth a new reality.” I disagree. There are certain speech acts (language) that are generative as distinct from passive that, strictly speaking, don’t describe anything – a promise for instance. For example, what if you and I agree to meet next week to finalize the creation of a new education building for the Wild Life Center of Virginia? The moment we make a promise (commitment) to meet on Thursday March 14, 2002 at 10:00AM our respective futures are altered. In other words, our future reality is shaped (brought forth) by the linguistic act called a promise. We may, of course, also use language to report on (describe) what took place at our meeting, but the meeting itself constitutes a new reality, one that would not have occurred if we did not commit to meet. The whole world we live in is shaped by this phenomenon. In this way, we, as linguistic beings, create or invent reality. Thursday, March 14, 2002 is linguistic construct. My dogs, whom I love dearly, do not coordinate their futures around such linguistic constructs, because they don’t live in language. And please don’t confuse language with communication. Clearly my dogs and other animals communicate. I’m referring to the phenomenon of language which is more than communication; it is the coordination of the coordination of action. This meta domain of coordination is only possible for beings who live in language and it has profound implications for our ability to bring forth reality. You go on to say that “our intellect and science will continue to change reality, well maybe not change, but redefine it.” I agree completely that our intellect and science will continue to change reality, but not because language is a bystander to the process. It is my contention that our intellect, that is, our ability to think, is inextricably linked to the phenomenon of language. Can you imagine thinking anything without being a biological being that lives in language?

Subject: hope you stick around MD From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:28:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just printed all your posts on the thread and I would guess it will take some reading and rereading and rereading ! Thanks for weighing in. Perception and reality are cetainly not OT for the forum, and I was looking forward to your updated thoughts on this subject. You did first come here with some posts where you took some of your thinking on the subject of perception and words and had at the time incorporated them also in your view of m. I thought they were interesting at the time, but tied to m, they got brushed aside in the pursuit of other issues we had with m. Glad you are in the mood to discuss them with us. Thanks again for your Stand Up approach to the whole m issue. Any of your clients who, if they were to review your involvement with m, and finish up by reading your interview with Mike Finch, would respect your growth and handling of the issue. For a couple years here we dearly wanted someone of your involvement level to come put thier cards on the table and you did it in spades. Thanks of course to Mike Donner also !

Subject: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:32:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I looked at your website (nice revamp) and tried to make my way through your FAQ and some of your other copy there but, Mike, my brain started bogging down in seconds. Honestly, is there really any 'there' there? Quite honestly, it really does look like gobbledygook. I'm sorry. I know you're not alone, that there seem to be lots and lots of people all swimming in those waters (Tim Gallwey, Mike??) but it just looks like a bizarre mixture of corporate training buzzwords and, like I said earlier, science fiction psychobabble. As far as I can tell, a table's gonna be a table no matter what kind of fancy verbal footwork one indulges in. It's a table for god's sake! You know? As in 'table'? Sheesh! So what do to? Should I feel bad for saying this? I don't know, Mike. Everyone here (except the premies, of course) seem to have great respect for the stand you've taken for truth here. I'm not exception. And you've written a number of excellent, cogent posts that have been of inestimable help for people trying to make sense of the Maharaji phenomenon. The last thing I'd ever want to do is put you off in any way whatsoever. However, when you utter such grand prophecies as you have here, I, for one, can't just say 'oh, that's nice' and leave it at that. No, it's more like ... 'what??' Anyway, is there some place in particular on your website or one of your links where I can learn why you think that we're in the midst of this major 'paradigm shift'? Or is that something that maybe I'd get if I took one of Gallwey's workshops? :)

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:27:46 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I suggest you let it go. I certainly don’t take offence if you think it is bullshit. I respect your skepticism. If this is a topic you really want to pursue, I suggest we take it off-line.

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:39:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I don't really want to pursue it. It's your thing, obviously. But tell me it isn't a bit funny you touting Gallwey at the same time as we're ridiculing him for his continuing support of Maharaji right down to buying Abi's plane ticket to meet with Valerio. I mean, do you still talk to the guy? What's that like?

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:06:45 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: No I don't talk with Gallwey. As you must know, I am a persona non grata in that world and that is fine with me.

Subject: In Theory Yes Humberto From: Francesco Varela To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:16:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem is, as you know too well yourself, is that teachers of the new relativity get treated as the new royalty by those too old, too entrenched, or too desperate to be riding the next wave. Cynthia's post about the Fernando Flores training course above perfectly amplifies that point. When there's big money involved there will always be problems, big business so likes to eat up and consume new paradigms when a profit is at stake. At street level thankfully that gets bypassed.

Subject: From Hierarchical to relational From: Barbara To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:25:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael: Thank you for your trenchant commentary. I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, which your comments seem to delineate. The 'Master' model, which is the epitome of hierarchy, certainly is outmoded and, rather than performing a service to 'students,' it does a disservice by crippling the students' ability to participate fully in life, IMO. R2 infers that, by not devotedly following and devotionally listening to the Master, we 'stop experiencing,' when in fact the opposite is true. One of the hallmarks of a paradigm shift (I know that phrase has been beaten to death, but it is accurate in this instance) is that once vaunted truths in the old paradigm can be, and are, turned on their heads and can be seen for the illusion(s) that they are/were. Further, R2's comment that '... the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master' reveal a cognitive canyon which no leap of logic can bridge. To me, R2's thinking displays the contortions of a mind fighting the shift from a hierarchical mode of communication to a relational mode. By abdicating personal responsibility under the guise of being a good student to a Master, both the Master and student feed and maintain the illusion and delusion that the Master/Student two-step is what it's all about. The darkest hour is just before dawn.

Subject: Help me play catch-up From: Pullaver To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:41:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you say I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, I presume that you are talking about how we communicate. For instance, when you say that the essence of language is hierarchical, I presume you mean that our 'manner of communication' can be hierarchical, not that this is the actual nature of the structure of language itself. And if I misunderstand you, and you are actually saying language itself is hierarchical, how do we move to communicating relationally given we're still left with the medium of language? Pullaver - an actual class clown but asking sincerely (guilelessly), relationally (or am I being old-school hierarchical?) and hopefully without a trace of irony.

Subject: Re: Help me play catch-up From: Barbara To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:48:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Guileless Pullaver: You got it right. I think the essence/purpose of language is communication, but you're correct in that I meant the mode of communication can be, and usually is, hierarchical. Language itself isn't, imo, but I sure ain't no expert on this. :)

Subject: Am I reading the wrong paper or something? From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:32:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hoyl cow, another one! I go to bed last night thinking I'm in this world that I've kind of gotten to know these last, what am I, 35? Yeah, 35 years, and I wake up to a paradigm shift. Is that in the LA Times or something? We didn't see anything about it up here. Mind you, that's Canada for you.

Subject: Once again, you're not trying hard enough :) From: Barbara To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:38:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must've been those damn primaries in the States.

Subject: Or you're trying too hard maybe? :) From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must have been the milk.

Subject: What milk? :) [nt] From: Barbara To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:44:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Aw, nothin' :) From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 18:08:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What in the world are you talking about? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. Where are you getting this from, Mike? That's a pretty strong, if vague, statement which just cries out for an explanation. I mean what is this? Frankly, and I say this with all due respect, it sounds to me like science fiction psychobabble. I mean, unless you can tell us more about when this 'new human being' is going to emerge and how, I'm sorry, but this just sounds weird. Even if you're right about the blind spots in our communication where do you get the idea that we're on the verge of such a radical 'paradigm shift'? And why, if this is all so real and imminent, doesn't the academic community join you in your prediction? Sorry, Mike, not sure what kind of response you expected or wanted. I, for one, am curious as hell as to how and where you're getting this stuff.

Subject: To Jim, Cynthia, et al From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:07:33 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I am not asking you to believe me or accept what I say. I am simply offering a different interpretation to that proposed by Richard II. Even though I no longer put any teacher on a pedestal I, nevertheless, continue to learn from several different teachers whom I respect for their specific expertise. If you are really interested in how I came to this way of thinking, and how it impacts my life and my work, you are welcome to visit my website and scan my list of suggested reading. I think Barbara captured the essence of my argument when she said, “I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, … The 'Master' model, which is the epitome of hierarchy, certainly is outmoded and, rather than performing a service to 'students,' it does a disservice by crippling the students' ability to participate fully in life, IMO.” My intention in this thread is to reflect upon the socially embodied concepts and beliefs that made it so natural, for me at least, to look upon Maharaji as a Master capable of revealing truth and perfection.

Subject: Re: To Jim, Cynthia, et al From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:01:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not asking you to believe me or accept what I say. I am simply offering a different interpretation to that proposed by Richard II. Yeah, fine Mike, but you must admit your comments raise some pretty big questions, chief among them being 'What's he talking about?' and 'How does he know?' To be quite honest with you, I'm not so much interested in how you came to think the way you do as to what it is you're thinking.

Subject: Thanks, Michael... From: Cynthia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:21:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, You know I appreciate you. I simply had a bad experience with Flores and his group. As I said, I don't discredit anything you have said here about your life around Maharaji. Far from it. I do thank you for your invitation to look at your list of suggested reading. Best, Cynthia

Subject: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? [nt] From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:25:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael Dettmers To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:45:04 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Sorry, about the two blank posts. My website address is: www.gylanix.com

Subject: Re:your links From: hamzen To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 15:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazed you've got Capras one there but no Maturana or Varela, and very surprized Checkland's 'Soft Systems Methodology' isn't mentioned, especially considering you're coming from a business angle specifically. Although I'm quite up on modern systems thinking it is still surprizing to me how the whole issue of power is left out of the equation. The relational approach from a scientific or personal angle can be very useful, but in a business environment it can still be used as a stick on emplyees, especially when considering who pays for the hiring of training consultants. In the systems community it took years before it was acknowledged as a problem.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: Michael Dettmers To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:40:27 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Maturana and Varela have written an excellent book entitled “The Tree of Knowledge.” Varela’s book, “The Embodied Mind’ is also a great read. Varela, who died within the last year, is well-referenced in Jaworski’s book, “Synchronicity – the Inner Path of Leadership.” Linguistically, power is not a substance nor a mysterious property that some people have and others don’t, but rather an assessment – an assessment of a differential capacity for action. In other words, power has no meaning outside of the social context in which it is referenced. In business and in every other domain of action, accumulating power is connected with one’s capacity to invent or create offers that produce results that are assessed by others as more powerful, or relevant, or useful that those made by others.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: hamzen To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 18:53:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Tree of Knowledge I found absolutely superb, the Embodied Mind pretty good as well. Sorry to hear Varela's died, out of all the systems community I held him in the highest regard, the Jaworski one I will check out., thanks for the ref. Re power, of course that is the definition, but it leaves out the most crucial issue. Maybe this is because your income depends on it's use, but those in power who set up business agenda's such as training of staff know that there is the issue of job security and financial security involved in employees attitude. This gives leverage for the kind of social pressure and guru enhancement of the kind that Cynthis was talking about in her job training. It is even more true when company re-organization is taking place using systems modelling of the relativity type approach, because it can be used to cover up the power issues, and make the whole process appear to be more democratic and based upon multiple realities than is the case. It can give good cover for wolves in sheeps clothing, and I cannot believe you haven't given this issue some thought, or have not been aware of situations where you are seen as being a useful cover for this kind of issue, or are not aware of the literature within the systems community dealing with this very issue. Technically of course people always have a choice to resist or not, as Solzenitzyn so superbly showed during his internment, but equality of choice is not just about choice but social weightings of those choices. Bosses do not build up power bases being unaware of this.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: Michael Dettmers To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:29:43 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I understand your’s and Cynthia’s point, and I share the concerns you have raised. I am my own person, not anyone’s puppet; I have my own company, and if you read my website, you have some idea about the values I bring to my work. My approach to organizational transformation is to ensure that the CEO and the senior team (of the company/group/division, etc.) are part of the process. Only when the principles have been firmly established, understood and accepted at that level, are they implemented throughout the rest of the organization. My purpose is to help organizations accelerate the process of learning so that they become more entrepreneurial in their responses to rapid changes in the marketplace. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you e-mail me so we can take it off-line as this has now become an OT discussion,IMO.

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:43:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael Dettmers To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What in the world are you talking about? From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:09:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. Where are you getting this from, Mike? That's a pretty strong, if vague, statement which just cries out for an explanation. I mean what is this? Frankly, and I say this with all due respect, it sounds to me like science fiction psychobabble. I mean, unless you can tell us more about when this 'new human being' is going to emerge and how, I'm sorry, but this just sounds weird. Even if you're right about the blind spots in our communication where do you get the idea that we're on the verge of such a radical 'paradigm shift'? And why, if this is all so real and imminent, doesn't the academic community join you in your prediction? Sorry, Mike, not sure what kind of response you expected or wanted. I, for one, am curious as hell as to how and where you're getting this stuff. --- I read it to mean the academic community already agrees with this idea and that the implications reach far beyond the academic research community. I think business will be the first place the new paradigm will take hold, mainly because they support this kind of linguistic research and hope to use it to improve their bottom line, which is fine with me. And that shift is away from hierarchical structures and the language that supports them, to more relational ones. That would be refreshing. I might even be employable under those circumstances...

Subject: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:14:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just like any philosopher or guru. A new paradigm of guru-ism in America. Great. Pity the emloyees of those corporations who take this shit, shove it down employees throats who have to eat it whole because they are employed! That's why I didn't leave that Flores workshop that Friday night. I needed the freaking job. Barf bag, please. I had my experience with the business management trainings once. That est like workshop shit the bed. Excuse my workin' class language, but I'm sick of scholars and their speak.

Subject: The Working Class.... From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 19:54:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...Can lick my ass, I've got the Foreman's job at last. (sung to the tune of the red flag) I've got a big problem with language reinventors myself,must be something to do with having read 1984 at an impressionable age. I'm convinced that a lot of this new age mind control in the workplace comes from former executive officers of cults setting themselves up as management consultants. Shit,they know the mechanics of it all don't they. The day someone tries to make me believe that the potato on my plate can be a negotiated reality with all the other diners around....I don't know. I'm getting away to Co.Kerry soon(holiday).Now there's a place where people know how to set their dogs onto gobshites. Maybe I'll come back refreshed as to the possibilities of resistance to those who want to crush the human spirit in the name of profit. Love: PatD

Subject: Re: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:29:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I kinda figured you had to sit through some management training EST thing. The ones I've nheard about sound terrible. I trust Michael has gone beyond that type of tripe. I believe he has some valueable things to say about employee management relations and consensus and team work building. Of course, I've been self employed since 1984 and the last time I was exposed to the corporate environment was with the now defunct computer manufacturer Wang Laboratories, in NYC. I'm hoping that this linguistic change leads to more freedom and participation for employees in the decisions directly affecting how they do their jobs.

Subject: Re: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:52:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, I wasn't working for a large corporation at the time. It was a tiny architectural office with 3 employees and an worshipper of a philosopher who still lives! I'm not trying to degrade Michael Dettmers here. I'm simply trying to point out that the new rage in corporate America is team training. And because employees are forced into it because of the fact they are employees, it's like sending someone to the wolves. Linguistics and it's study is a philosophy. Michael is free to say anything he wants here. I respect his honesty. I just don't want philosophy shoved down my face on an ex-cult forum. That's all. It pisses me off. Especially when spoken in terms of academia-speak, which for us common folk, is a total turn-off. Sometimes I think that certain conversations here are valuable, but very, very exclusionary. IF that's how you spell it. Cynthia

Subject: Linguistics/Chomsky From: Joe To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:13:47 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Cynthia, That must have been a weird seminar to have to attend. This is where I come out on this. No matter what 'good' there is in any philosophy, if somebody takes it and uses mind control in regard to it, and if there is some kind of a revered leader, then it's a cult. In your case, this whole idea that you can't question the teachings is mind control, pure and simple, no different from the mind control in the Maharaji cult that you aren't supposed to 'doubt' knowledge or Maharaji. The revered leader bullshit is another huge red flag. But there is a legitimate study of linquistics about how people learn language, how the brain works in processing language, and the whole relationship between language and the human mind. For example, Noam Chomsky at MIT, in the late 50s and early 60s, in the middle of the 'BF Skinner' era, proposed the then radical idea that at the heart of most human cognitive operations is a fixed, structured, biological directiveness. Rather than the 'blank slate' Skinner model, Chomsky's theories were revolutionary, that there is a very definite structure of concepts and of meaning intrinsic to our nature and as we acquire language they sort of grow in our brains, the same way we grow arms and legs. He thinks it's wrong that questions of the mind are studied differently that questions of the body. He says that systems of knowledge are directed substantially by our biological nature. Chomsky has been a big critic of Kuhn. Chomsky disputes Kuhn's notion that scientific knowledge is the product of community consensus and periodically changes in 'paradigm shifts.' In fact, he says that the 'second congnitive revolution' of the mid-1950s was a regression from advances made in earlier times, back to Descartes. So, he says the talk of 'paradigm shifts' is sort of bullshit and sees his own 'Chomskyan revolution' in linguistics as 'just normal progress.' Chomksy's theories are now widely accepted, resulting in the understanding that there is a certain developmental "window" during which humans acquire language, like from age 0-7. So, this is just a long-winded way of saying that there are linguists who don't accept Kuhn and who aren't about to start a cult around some linguistic theory, like what you apparently observed. And one thing being an ex-cult member gives you, IMO, is a super-sensitive ability to spot cult-bullshit a mile away. That's for sure. Thanks, Cynthia.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: janet To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 04:50:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey joe: re your comment 'Chomksy's theories are now widely accepted, resulting in the understanding that there is a certain developmental 'window' during which humans acquire language, like from age 0-7.'-- actually the window is open for a much smaller amount of time. there was research that was cited in a series in the Los Angeles Times a few years back, a weeklong feature on how the brain works, in which they made it known that along with inabilities which we already know, titled 'illiteracy' and 'innumeracy'[ being, respectively, the inability to read or write or understand symbols for spoken language, and the inability to understand or symbolize mathematic, arithmetic events], a newer and more disturbing disability has been emerging from recent studies- the failure to absorb and use verbal language for communication. the cases cited focused on families in which the youngest -the babies in arms-were handled and fed and diapered, washed, clothed, carried around or left in a pen, a stroller, a carseat, but no one ever spoke to them, interacted with them, spent time with them in unbroken attention, or worked with them intently to give them the understanding that hearing or making specific sounds meant specific things. The babies were just handled like they were dolls, things, extra baggage, something to be 'done to'. Not interacted with as a live, awake, aware, intelligent human being wanting to make sense of the world and other people around them. The results of these case studies revealed that babies who are not talked to in intently communicating, specific one on one attention fashion, grow up largely nonverbal. by age three, they cannot talk and cannot learn to talk. the chache is lost. no amount of 'remedial work' after that can reach them. the implications of this are stunning. you can forget worrying about illiteracy or innumeracy. If the person never absorbed and came to grasp language in any sense, the later skills are moot. It doesn not have to be audible lauguage, either. Babies born deaf have just as much craving and ability to absorb and master communicating in a language with those they see around them, and therefore deaf parents with hearing babies, or hearing parents with deaf babies, are being urgently told to use sign language and the same unbroken individual attention with their babies from the very beginning of life, to communicate with them and help them learn to communicate themselves back. babies hands are far more eloquent than most people appreciate, and signing babies prove to be astonishingly articulate in their use of the gestures they see and understand, and can 'speak' with their hands much earlier than babies whose language is verbal. a baby must hear a spoken word 5000 times before it can isolate it as a word and tries to utter it in recognition. a signing baby will reach that benchmark earlier than a speaking baby. personal history to support, here: i come from a very verbal family. very articulate. my son did not appear to understand sppoken language until he was at least 5 months old. I remember watching hard for any indication that he understood anything I said, and feeling a sense of despair from day one of his birth until a day when he was perhaps 5 or 6 months old, nursing in my arms, when I had this pang of sadness and wondered if he was ever going to understand what I was saying to him. to my shock, he suddenly stiffened and his eyes flew open and he fixed me with a look, took his mouth off the nipple, and very clearly said the closest thing his infant mouth could shape, to utter his own name: 'teppan'. [his name is Stepan] he grinned, watched my eyes for a reaction, and then laughed! satisfied that he had allayed my woe, he happily went back to nursing and didn't utter another recognizable word until he was 9 months old. he babbled, he tried out various mouth sounds, but no words until the next landmark, when he toddled up to his father who was ill in bed, and in the same intonation i always used, clearly looked him in the eye and said 'Da-vid' and regarded him, expecting a response. It was perhaps a month after that, at 10 months, when he first clearly reacted to a verbal command and we knew [he and I] that he had broken the code of talking. We were in a store and saw his brand of diapers in a stacked display. He recognized the box from our stash at home, and from my arms promptly reached over to grab one from somewhere not at the top of the pyramid. I blurted out 'NO!' in panic, afraid the display would come down, and for the first time, he froze in mid reach, looked at me acutely, and pulled his tiny hand back. I was thrilled to realize he understood the word. I hugged him and exclaimed 'you understood me! you got it!' and danced him up the aisle, laughing. he was laughing too. Then i immediately took him back to the display and tested him, so he could show me and i could find out if he really did understand. I 'd tell him 'ok-get the diapers' and he'd reach for them, and I'd suddenly utter 'NO!', and he'd pull back, and look at me to see if he did right. and I'd nod. Then I'd tell him again to get the boz, and he'd reach, and I'd say' No!' again, and he'd pull back and look at me. we made a game of it. I walked him up to other things, and he'd point at something, and i'd nod, he'd reach, and I'd say'no' again. so he went from understanding 'no' for the diapers in that one breakthrough instance, in that display, to understanding that 'no' applied to anything around, to understanding that getting it right was an occasion that made me happy that he understood, to his trying it out for himself. he didnt realize it, but he got 'yes' at the same time. we ended the day in the stor by me taking him back to the diaper pyramid and letting him point at different boxes, look to me and watching to see if i said no, pulling back and picking a different one and watching what I'd do and say to that one, and when he finally pointed to one that was safe to pull down and throw in the basket, i nodded and said yes and indicated he could pull it down and throw it in the cart. it may have looked silly to anyone watching us, but it was a landmark 'paradigm shift' for both of us, where we crossed from the estrangement and isolation of being unable to know what one another meant, thought, knew, wanted,desired-- to suddenly being able to move into the same reality and know that we were communicating about the same thing. we had come a long way from the day when he was still too small to crawl or sit up alone, when he sobbed in my arms for something I could not figure out, and i too began to cry from not being able to understand what he was trying to tell me. that was a paradign shift day for him. it was the first time he realized that I didn't know everything and couldnt do everything for him, and that I was unhappy about not being able to. i remember the look of shock in his eyes when he saw me start to cry. he got very serious and studied, then finally leaned out over my arms, indicating that he wanted me to put him down on the carpet, and he slithered over to whatever it was he wanted, learning self sufficiency and that mom didn't know everything. --- --- --- - all that said, nonetheless, I have aproblem with this assertion that we are in a paradigm shift by virtue of language. which i will take up in some other posts.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: Joe To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:51:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Janet. I hadn't heard about that, although it does make sense about the need for verbal stimulation at such an early age. And I also agree that there isn't a 'paradigm shift' by virtue of language. Like Chomsky says, I think it's more likely just normal progress as we find out more information.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: Barbara To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:46:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: all that said, nonetheless, I have aproblem with this assertion that we are in a paradigm shift by virtue of language. which i will take up in some other posts. Hi Janet: Pretty scary the thought that there are kids out there who don't learn to speak because they're not spoken to. As for your above statement, I'd surmise that language reflects a shift rather than creates it. Something interesting to think about though.

Subject: You ought to get out more From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:04:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talk to ravers about their drug experiences and even on psychedelics they don't experience it as anything but a psycho construct whereas we had a strong tendency to experience that shit as real, see Leary, BeHere Now etc. Made us perfect fodder for a 'guru' whereas now gurus are so passe.

Subject: I have no idea what you're talking about From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:13:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Ham, I don't know what you mean. If you do, kindly advise. :)

Subject: The New Gurus: Intellectual Snobs! From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:09:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With no respect for us common folk. I'm so sick of academia-speak I could puke. I don't like it, that's probably why I steer clear of educational institutions. YUCK!

Subject: Fernando Flores, Thomas Kuhn, and Linguistics... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:50:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, with all due respect, You are talking about linguistics, a philosophy of both Fernando Flores and Thomas Kuhn, correct? Both involved in linguistics, both were at MIT and Stanford? I attended a weekend workshop in 1989, at the request of my employer, it was a Logonet (Flores' company) workshop about team building. Now it's called Business Design Associates. Fernando Flores is founder. The first Friday workshop was conducted in a manner very similar to est (but we were allowed bathroom breaks). During the long Saturday workshop, after one man was berated and demeaned for over two hours by the workshop leader (until he agreed with the philosophy and made personal admissions in tears in front of about 60 workshop participants), I questioned what the hell was going on. The group-speak was obvious, weird and cultish. I was told that questioning was ignorance. If anyone refused to succumb to the training line of thinking, they were told to leave the workshop immediately. (Or, in the case of that poor man, berated until he submitted.). The group leader was treated with awe, like a saint or something. I was told that because I didn't know (hadn't taken enough courses to understand) I would never know, so had no right to question the philosophy. Now I know that it what I was questioning was mass therapy. To me, a cult is a cult, or mass therapy disguised as a business team-building workshop. That Saturday night, because I was staying with one of the Logonet's employees (which was also weird), I went out to dinner with Flores' inner circle, including the group leader (who everyone deferred to and treated like a mahatma). I was told by my hostess that I should be honored to be in his presence. That group had 'group speak' that was stranger than the Maharajism cult. Instead of saying things like 'I hear what you're saying' they would say 'I listen what you are saying.' Inventing and creating their lives were involved too, but it's been a long time so I don't remember all their group-speak. 'Paradigm' took up a lot of the vocabulary, though. Flores was worshipped, too. I remember one day I was at work here in Vermont, and my boss and his wife got a call from Boston (where Logonet had their company at the time) and were told that Fernando Flores was coming to Boston for dinner at another follower of Flores, who happens to be extremely wealthy, and they were invited. It was dinner with Flores and his inner circle. My employers literally dropped everything to go, including their kids Whenever Flores was anywhere, available for these people to meet with him, they literally dropped their lives for him. And then I got follow up calls to sign up for their computer intranet courses which ran from $5,000 to $10,000 per. I told the woman I wasn't interested. She told me I couldn't possibly know if I was interested until I took the courses! That I was ignorant! Michael, thanks for sharing, but I think you need to be clear about what you're sharing here about your current beliefs. Linguistics is a philosophy, a way of looking at things, which, in my one experience, sent me running the other way. Cynthia

Subject: Sounds like M's trainings From: Francesca To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:34:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This sounds a lot like John MacGregor's Amaroo training descriptions and Chris P's descriptions of other trainings. I think part of the difference we are talking here is philosophies and ideas v. people who make themselves gurus by creating teachings and trainings which are corrupted (and co-opted) versions of the same philosophies and ideas. Corporate trainings that I've heard of are often (but not always) pass-the-barf-bag stuff, and to me is the new version of corporate guru-ism. Not only that, but employees' jobs are often cut to pay for the likes of the Tim Gallways of the world to come and teach you something you didn't really need to know. I heard that several large corporation had paintball wars with their executives for 'team building' as part of a training seminar. Corporate 'retreats' is another version of the same. The content can be valuable or can be more filler. Michael D sounds like he's talking about food, and Flores' seminars are what happens after the food passes out the bod and into the crapper. What a horrible experience you must have had! LOLs Francesca

Subject: Neuro-linguistic programming by any chance? [nt] From: Are you talking about To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:23:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's NOT 'linguistics'.

Subject: Yeah Neuro-linguistic bullshit... From: Cynthia To: Are you talking about Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 18:50:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bullshit is bullshit. However fancy you want to say it. However dumb you want to make me sound. Big fucking deal. Crooks are crooks. I'm out of this fucking place. Academic snobs!

Subject: Hey i hope yer not mad at me... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:13:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Neuro-linguistic programming by any chance? From: gerry To: Are you talking about Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:54:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...there's one more thing girl, give back your ring to me and I will set you free...go with him. Ah ah ah ah, all of my life I've been searching for a girl who'll love me like I do you...ah ah ah ah but every girl I've ever had, breaks my heart and leaves me sad what oh what am I supposed to do? uh uh uh uh uh oh.... How are ya? Tis the season, I'm grazing already and sophia is attracting all sorts of attention now that she's blooming... And don't be so darn pedantic, he he.

Subject: Re: Neuro-linguistic programming by any chance? From: Are you talking about To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 19:46:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does Patty know you're singing my song?! ;) AND it's OT and not marked as such ... I will bring it to the attention of the administration! I'm good. I've started my first round of seeds in the basement and we've hardly had a winter this year for some strange reason, but it's not spring yet. I'll be getting my rebar and PVC tubing for my cloche clips on Friday. Ahhh, Sophia is blooming! Did she bloom last year, or is this the first time? The pedant who can't sit back and shut up when something as creepy as neuro-linguistic programming is being called linguistics!

Subject: Alas Sophia is Pregnant... From: gerry To: Are you talking about Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 18:15:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And her twin off spring are increasingly jaundiced each day. So the answer is of course she not a virgin and of course Patty doesn't know that... :) Weather update: The sun is shining and it's snowing. NO kiddin'

Subject: the FATHER?!!! From: Are you blah blah blah ... To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:57:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations!!! I won't tell Patty anything about the birds and the bees, ever! I believe you ... it was about 55 degrees F last Sunday afternoon, and I put out my hammock and relaxed in a ski jacket for an hour and a half. :) The next day it was 0 degrees F. :(

Subject: T. Kuhn From: Barbara To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:07:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia: The link is one of Kuhn's obits. He was at MIT for some time. I've read Kuhn, but never heard of Flores, and I'm really ignorant of linguistics. From your description, Flores sounds like you know who which must've been pretty strange (and costly) for you to run across. It's pretty abstract stuff and definitely comes across as a total non-sequitur in this thread. Gotta run. Hope you're well. Kuhn the-tech.mit.edu/V116/N28/kuhn.28n.html

Subject: Hi Barbara... From: Cynthia To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:12:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I already look up both Kuhn and Flores. Two peas in a pod. And Flores rakes in the $$ for his pod. Actually, Kuhn is dead, so he's off the hook except for his philosophy of which he has many followers. It's about linguistics, the study of computers/man/language and is bunk.

Subject: Nice little essay, Michael From: gerry To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had to read it a couple of times, but I found it well worth the effort. Hopefully, R2 and others will give it some thought.

Subject: Turning on a paradigm From: Pullaver To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:11:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I am saying is that about that reality we know nothing, since all knowledge itself is completely linguistic. Reality always shows up within a 'linguistic clearing.' But Michael, Maharaji is purported to be the revealer of the Word that cannot be spoken. He deals in experiential phenomena with which he attaches metaphysical significance. You know, 'In the beg'ning was the Word; the Word was with God; and the Word was God.' You can mount a linguistic argument against the cosmological theory but any good devotee worth his salt will tell you it's all in the experience.

Subject: Re: Turning on a paradigm From: Michael Dettmers To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:40:42 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I’ve made the following point a few times in the past, but perhaps it bears repeating. As biological beings, our nervous systems cannot distinguish between perception and illusion. Just go for a 3-D ride at one of the Orlando theme parks to understand what I am talking about. Of course, intellectually we may know it is an illusion, but our nervous system experiences it as “reality.” Hence, to address your point, it is necessary to distinguish between a phenomenon (experience) and its interpretation (the story we have about it). I don’t waste time arguing about anyone’s experience. People experience whatever they experience (whether perception or illusion). However, the whole argument proffered by Richard II is an interpretation – an interpretation that “the Master’s value is priceless.” No interpretation is the “truth.” Remember my analogy to the phenomenon of “gravity” and it’s various interpretations over time, most notably by Newton and subsequently by Einstein. Each had a different interpretation of the same phenomenon which, in the old paradigm, compelled its adherents to claim the interpretation as the “truth.” What makes an interpretation powerful or relevant, as distinct from being the “truth”, is whether or not it enables people to take effective action. My argument is that the whole concept of a Master who dispenses or reveals the “truth” is an anachronism.

Subject: Turning on a paradigm From: Opie To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:14:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My argument is that the whole concept of a Master who dispenses or reveals the “truth” is an anachronism. Brilliant Michael. Was chatting to an friend a few days ago and we wondered where and how the concept that there could only be one Perfect Master at any one time came about. Now, of course, it is easy to understand why there are so many masters out there claiming perfection. :) Was wondering if GM ever gave any insight into this exclusivity beyond just making the banal statement that it is so. This was simply a hook. BTW I was vaguely aware of Thomas Kuhn. Did he precede or follow Karl Popper in the discussions of linguistics? I find your posts very interesting and inspires me to do some more research. Think I may go to the following link but if you have other suggestions I would be glad to hear of them. Opie's next reading project! warmly OP

Subject: The Master's morals are not relevant From: PatC To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:27:42 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: Actually, Richard ll, I enjoyed your post. I felt that it was respectful and not really seething with the anger one often gets from reading a real cult-apologist's stuff. You said: ''I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.'' Right from the beginning when I first heard of M 30 years ago, I personally thought that he was a conman. Most of my friends at the time did too. Slowly over the next two years many of those friends succumbed to M and finally out of desperation so did I. I spent the next 28 years telling myself that the M's morals were not relevant because he had shown me god. I don't know exactly when I began to realize the following stuff in perfect chronological order but it accumulated over the past few years until I am now an ex-premie. I always detested the cult but tolerated it because it was helping M to spread Knowledge of God. Then I left and had nothing to do with premies for many years until a couple of years ago when I decided that I wanted to part of spreading K because I enjoyed it so much. The remaining premies all seemed to think that the cult had gotten better but it seemed to me that it had gotten worse and that the premies were much less happy than they used to be. I began to question, read a bit of EPO and realized two things immediately. Rawat was not the owner of the techniques or even the experience and that there was big possibility that he was not THE master and in fact was probably a fool and a fraud. When I first started posting here I still thought that he may in fact be the Big Cheese but his lack of morals pissed me off so much that I figured I'd oppose him no matter what (yes, it was scary.) In fact I said to a premie who used to post here that I didn't care of he was god almighty - he still had to obey the rules of democracy and common decency. The reason that I still thought he may be The One was because of the concepts that I had about K - the Maharajism religion that he had fed me - that it was god, eternity, The Truth etc. Slowly as I got rid of the concepts that he had stuffed into me, I began to see that K may be none of those things. I still meditate but I tend to think of it as brain chemistry, brain yoga, relaxation. Sure I still see some pretty amazing things but I also know that I really can't put a dogmatic label on what it is. I simply enjoy it without having religious concepts about it. If you can still reconcile your own morals with M's lack of ethics, responsibility and respect for his students, that's fine with me. I could not. As long as you can sleep well at night and look people in the face and announce proudly that he is your master then I have no quarrel with you and wish you only well. I know he is not as evil as Hitler which is why I don't feel that much anger and hatred for him anymore (I did when I first began to realize I had been duped) and why I wish him no harm - but that will not stop me from criticising and condemning him as a greedy and superficial person who has done more harm than good.

Subject: To be aware of the timeless. From: PatD To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:21:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice touch R2. Move those mirrors & blow that smoke. Glad to know someone has finally realised knowledge.Get out there & shout it from the rooftops...Satguru has come. Never mind that He has chosen to manifest Himself in the all too human frame of Prem etc Rawat,paradox made flesh(hypocrite is for non students),never mind,He's the master regardless. yeah,what if heisthe true master......we're all fucked,& you too for having the nerve to disobey him by posting on the internet. Sayonara motherfucker.

Subject: Re: To be aware of the timeless. From: R2 To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:37:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice touch R2. Move those mirrors & blow that smoke. Glad to know someone has finally realised knowledge.Get out there & shout it from the rooftops...Satguru has come. Never mind that He has chosen to manifest Himself in the all too human frame of Prem etc Rawat,paradox made flesh(hypocrite is for non students),never mind,He's the master regardless. yeah,what if heisthe true master......we're all fucked,& you too for having the nerve to disobey him by posting on the internet. Sayonara motherfucker. --- Sweet.

Subject: Powerful post Richard II From: Deputy dog =) To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:04:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said in one of your coming out posts that as a premie there are two conditions concerning the EPO accusations, with each of them giving rise to different courses of actions. You said, if the accusations being leveled by ex’s are not true then this site is doing a disservice to man, and if they are true there would be no alternative but to stop following him. I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master. To entertain this possibility you need to have an appreciation for what a Master means to a student. And to understand that, you need to be a student. If I ask what in life matters, the responses to this question would be entirely subjective. That is because we each have our own reference point that determines what is valuable to us. To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what? Okay, let me get poetic for a minute. To see what occupies the void. To hear what is heard in silence. To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Does this kind of stuff matter to non-students? Of course not. Most people don’t believe such things are even possible, so they don’t value it. Instead they come up with other icons to revere: country, community, family –- you know the story. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? If you were to believe for a moment the scriptures and poets who describe these things as being the true riches of life, then you would have to value them absolutely -– intellectually at least. So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. So Dep, here’s what happens. You stop experiencing. Maybe you stop practicing. Or maybe you practice but those nagging doubts don’t let you go much deeper a freckle. That stops you from believing. Then like most other people in this world, that stops you from valuing. And what then of the Master? That’s easy. At first he just gets relegated to the same level as the rest of our leaders. And if he fits our model for a leader – which is probably a collective mix of political, religious, professional, and cultural leadership -- we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. So here’s an interesting thought. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Something would have to give, eh Dog? --- Excellent post Richard II. You raise a very interesting point that I quite frankly had not considered. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Hmmmmmmm. Sheeeeeeesh! What a question! A few nights ago my wife told me that she doesn’t mind what I feel about Maharaji as long as I 'strive to be like a lotus.' I think this is excellent advice. Is that a good enough answer? I think I can be a student of life without being a student of Maharaji. Suppose I accept your premise that the Master’s only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. Shouldn’t he also teach us by example, and not simply by imparting meditation techniques? Shouldn’t he have to work a little bit to earn our respect and admiration as well? And how can I tell my friends about this man. 'Here take this video. Maharaji will show you how to go inside and contact the truth. Oh and by the way, he also drinks excessively, smokes like a chimney, runs around on his wife, killed a guy with his car and had someone else take the blame, continually asks for money to spread Knowledge but uses this money to live an obscenely extravagant lifestyle . . . etc.' How special is that? How many students is this Master going to have? If anything, having a lousy reputation is bad for business. He should know that. And what if the allegations have no relevance concerning Maharaji as Master? Well IMO character is important even for a true Master. I simply can’t take advice from a person who says one thing and does another. Some might even call this type of behaviour hypocritical. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But if Maharaji decides to come clean with his followers, who knows, I might even consider returning (I said consider). After EPO, however, I definitely find it difficult to look at Maharaji as I did before. Sorry Richard II. See I’m a simple 'walk your talk - practice what you preach' kinda guy. And if the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master, that would mean I would have to devalue my values and lower my standards. I don't feel like doing that. I have weighed the stories on EPO and their relevance to my personal first hand experience and I have done what feels right for me. Something has changed. I no longer feel the same way. I have walked, not from Knowledge, but from Maharaji. When I meditate I want emptiness, spaciousness, the void. I have had enough controversial thoughts about Maharaji in my head. If anything, he is now getting in the way. So I now consider myself a post-premie (to use a phrase coined by Mark Appleman). From now on it’s just between me and God. The worst thing that can happen to me is that I don’t go to any more programs. Fine, I can live with that. The past is dead and gone, we can’t bring it back, and we can’t change it. And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. I also choose to believe that everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us. So instead of fussing and fretting about this predicament, I asked myself, 'What I can get out of this that will serve me? How can I turn this lemon into lemonade?' Well, I can thank Maharaji for finally turning me to Buddhist practice. The emptiness and cleanliness of Theravada and Zen Buddhism has always been more suited to my temperament than bhakti yoga. I also feel safer and more confident when I practice vipassana because no fallible human personalities are getting in the way. In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus.

Subject: And what if there ISN'T karma? From: Jim To: Deputy dog =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie.

Subject: the justice system Jim??? From: then why are you in To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 05:50:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that seems like a really disingenuous question, coming from someone who's a criminal defense lawyer. if you didn't beleive in karma, you would never have gone into Law.

Subject: DO YOU KNOW THE RULES HERE OR NOT? From: Jim To: then why are you in Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:29:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw you, posting with out a handle. Anyway, you're absolutely right, no one could possibly get involved in the law without believing in karma. What was I thinking? LOL!

Subject: Re: And what if there ISN'T karma? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 22:36:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma.

Subject: Get real, Dog From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:12:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma. --- Here was your FULL quote: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. I was merely making the obvious point that if the rest of us had felt that way, you'd still be a premie. In other words, no EPO, no forum(s), no disclosure, no endless parade of exes concerned enough to try to knock some sense into you. So don't give me this bullshit about how 'woefully ignorant of the concept' (I thought you didn't have those, by the way?) I am. By your own words, you're content to just let things happen however they will, without your involvement. When you say stuff like this: In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus. it sounds like you aren't exactly the person who'd ever do anything for the woman with the broken leg. Why bother, eh? Let's face it, Dog, you might not want to admit it but you owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Can't you see that?

Subject: oo gratitude. debt. too familiar From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 06:01:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: watch out JIm. ou're turning into maharaji, there. it isnt enough to set someone free? they have to now turn around and chain themselves in guilt and shame to the agents to set them free? Dep had the freedom [and the perversity] at all times to believe or not beleive what we presented him with. thousands seem to be reading this board. they all see the same postings. but no one knows what they think as a result, save , they themselves. it drives you nuts when you can't get someone to see things your way. now it drives you up a wall when someone finally does? Jim, no one else on earth is you. you can't make little tin soldier copies if yourself out of the whole world and then march your army of clones upon the Enemy. there are many ways to Leave. 50 ways to leave your lover? remember? Dep has gotten it right for him. he isnt you. he doesnt have to be. and there is a hell of a lot of wisdom in what he says of his own choices. he arrived at his change freely of his own process. not because you harangued him to. what is on the site for one and all speaks for itself. i know you love to go after people and argue them like a dog chasing cars, and then think that because you chased them, they left. but like those car i hate to burst your bubble: they were headed in that direction regardless of your barking. you wanna feel important. you wanna take the credit. but even without you, they would arrive at their own decision, anyway. this gratitude refrain is just a little too much like the 'knowledge is free'' now you owe the master forever, give give give because i freed you and I want want want.' you're still in the clutches of the ashram/propagation/spread this knowledge' mindset Jim. only difference is, the knowledge you want to spread is now the knowledge About maharaji, not the knowledge techniques as shown By maharaji. take a look at yourself, there. deep programming, still unbroken. making you act and talk the same as it made you do when you were a full blown ashramie. dep's broken free. you could gain a lot by listening to him.

Subject: Janet, you're mad From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:35:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely mad, Janet. Maharaji does not own 'gratitude', stupid. When someone like Dog, who only finally sees through Maharaji because of the certain efforts of those who put together EPO and those who drove the relevant points through his new age-muddled head for the last several years, finally leaves, it's a bit much for him to then lecture the rest of us about how he is not going to get stuck in negativty, blah, blah, blah by 'attacking' Maharaji. Were it not for many of us thinking otherwise, thinking that we should do something, Dog would still be a premie. Anyway, don't bother responding.

Subject: Re: Janet, you're mad From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:22:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely mad, Janet. Maharaji does not own 'gratitude', stupid. When someone like Dog, who only finally sees through Maharaji because of the certain efforts of those who put together EPO and those who drove the relevant points through his new age-muddled head for the last several years, finally leaves, it's a bit much for him to then lecture the rest of us about how he is not going to get stuck in negativty, blah, blah, blah by 'attacking' Maharaji. Were it not for many of us thinking otherwise, thinking that we should do something, Dog would still be a premie. Anyway, don't bother responding. --- Jim, here is what I said: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. We pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. You can attack M all you like, just don't let it affect your health. Just don’t let this situation continue to negatively affect and sour your life. Come to think of it, perhaps in your case it’s already too late. IMO one of the biggest killers in the world is not cancer, heart disease, AIDS, malaria etc, it’s grudgitus. Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot That it do singe yourself. -- Shakespeare

Subject: You stupid ingrate! From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:35:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point stands. You would still be a premie if it weren't for a lot of us and all you can do is lecture us about our 'sour lives'. You're not putting it altogether, Dog. But then that's really no surpirse, is it? You played dumb as a premie and now you're playing dumb as an ex. Whatever.

Subject: Re: You stupid ingrate! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 18:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point stands. You would still be a premie if it weren't for a lot of us and all you can do is lecture us about our 'sour lives'. You're not putting it altogether, Dog. But then that's really no surpirse, is it? You played dumb as a premie and now you're playing dumb as an ex. Whatever. --- Our sour lives? I'm saying that we pay a price for our resentment and hatred. We pay for it with high blood pressure, heart ttouble, stomach ulcers, our health and our happiness etc. Most exes are civil, well-mannered, and gracious.

Subject: Re: Get real, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:23:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma. --- Here was your FULL quote: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. I was merely making the obvious point that if the rest of us had felt that way, you'd still be a premie. In other words, no EPO, no forum(s), no disclosure, no endless parade of exes concerned enough to try to knock some sense into you. So don't give me this bullshit about how 'woefully ignorant of the concept' (I thought you didn't have those, by the way?) I am. By your own words, you're content to just let things happen however they will, without your involvement. When you say stuff like this: In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus. it sounds like you aren't exactly the person who'd ever do anything for the woman with the broken leg. Why bother, eh? Let's face it, Dog, you might not want to admit it but you owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Can't you see that? --- As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. Am I? Or am I simply acknowledging the fact that there is nothing legal that can be done. Do you think M will end up in jail? I don't. Okay I admit it. I owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Thank you all.

Subject: Deputy Pup, since yer a baby ex... From: Gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:55:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, wasn't that what they used to call the new fish, er premies? 'Baby premies?' Anyway, let me transpose two letters in this paragraph and we'll upgrade your essay to a 'B-:' If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. Dog is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated.

Subject: Re: Powerful post Richard II From: R2 To: Deputy dog =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:54:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best of luck Dep. Hey, maybe we’ll bump into each other somewhere along the way and chat some more.

Subject: Re: Powerful post Richard II From: Deputy Dog To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:15:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks R2. People often poke fun of me here because I like to include quotes in a lot of my posts. Here is one that I think is particularly appropriate for you: This above all--to thine own self be true. . . Thou canst not then be false to any man. -- Shakespeare Goodspeed. And best of luck to you too.

Subject: R2-a coupla questions... From: Jim S. To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1-What if m is 'the true master'? Can you explain this one? How would you qualify this? How would you really know whether or not m is 'the true master'? (Is it because he told you he is? Because of the techniques that you can now get on a dvd, or from hundreds of other gurus?) Just curious how you can make a statement like that.... 2-Do you think maharaji is a liar? If you don't, I'd like to point out a few things to you. How can you follow a liar? How can you believe him? 3-Why does maharaji tell premies to tell others about him, and try to entice new people into his trip, when he knows what a slime-ball he really is. Are you proud of the fact that he does this, which can embarass and possibly ruin certain aspects of premies lives.

Subject: Re: To the good Deputy From: michael donner To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:49:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow. i am no longer a 'student' of that master you refer to and yet i value those things you mentions...a great deal. are you impling that m is the only way to those things/? seems so as you continuously use the singular not plural master (s). is he the only one in your book? also, how does one evaluate a true master (assuming there is such a thing)? if it is by the gift given then ask around and see how many folks that still follow him are really having the kind of experience advertized. but, i think its more then just the fruit he would give others...its what having eaten the fruit in his own life looks like and feels like that might also give an indication of the master's value to others. m has a history of blaming others, creating co-dependent relationships that disimpower others, of being greedy and self serving while pose as the opposite. i experienced during the years around him that he 'seemed' not to practice the knowledge he 'taught/preached'. i cant help but think that if one practices rubbing against the real truth/love/peace (what ever) that one would become a bit of those things... it is clear that the practice of this master has not made him a better person...nasty judgement i know...but by most common standards m is not a wonderful man. it hasn't seemed to help him deal with his adictions, his projecting constantly, his paranoia, etc...could we reasonably expect a master to be living a decent life? i still can't shake that imagination that the practice of knowledge should affect positive change in ones character.

Subject: Rubbing the 'real' From: Jerry To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 11:49:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Here's what I wonder. If Knowledge is all THAT, wouldn't it lead to better character in an individual? So here's what I'm thinking. Let's say you're practicing K and you're becoming a better person because of it, your backbone is growing stronger daily, and you begin to see that Maharaji doesn't have much of a backbone himself. Wouldn't it only follow that people who's character is growing stronger from practicing K are sooner or later going to see that Maharaji is a fraud? So, why does it take so long for people to see that, if K really is all that people crank it up to be?

Subject: Re: Rubbing the 'real' From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:38:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point about character. I've been thinking today, why do so many premies have dubious morals? Is it because M has so little apparent respect for the mores of the 'world'? And premies just follow suit in all sorts of little ways? I remember getting on a plane with a bunch of premies once to go to a programme in America, and a premie I was with managed to get on without a ticket. 'Maharaji's grace' he murmured as he sank into a seat. It happened all the time, and I wasn't innocent either (although I didn't go as far as stowing away on planes!) - I just thought none of it really mattered, because it was only M's world that really counted. I've read some books about near death experiences, though, and whatever they are, people often come back with a deeply felt sense that what really matters in life is to give love. To be kind and generous-spirited. Those experiences are often quite life-transforming and the people who have them can be fundamentally changed for the better. Does the practise of Knowledge transform or ennoble people's character? I would say generally not. And surely it's reasonable to ask why not? If the Knowledge really is what R2 is claiming it to be? Why doesn't character really matter in Maharaji's world? Best, Livia

Subject: Great point, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:19:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I don't particularly like this R2 person but I wanted to resond to your question: Why do so many premies have dubious morals? My experience while in the cult included intense programming, repetition, exhaustion, and fear. I had to believe that I had the 'Knowledge of all knowledges.' The 'knowing' part rather than a 'belief' that m is the living lord contributes to this immoral or amoral behavior. I did things while very close to m that I knew were illegal, not just immoral. It was in direct resonse to his requests. I firmly believe that it's part of the cult-programming that places a person in a position of being fearful of not following orders. In the instance of a premie who is not physically close to m, the mentality is the same and explained as 'lila' or 'by his grace.' I'm not proud of the things I did on m's behalf that certainly could have gotten me arrested (and I probably would have lied at that time to hold maharaji harmless), yet I know that my mind and my system of morality weren't hooked up at the time. I certainly take responsibility, as all adults must, for my actions. This issue of morality among premies is an important one. Striving to be like the Master (perfect, enlightened, or realized) the knowing part of Maharaji as 'Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer' also instills great fear of not doing the right thing, even if that conscience in the back of our heads was saying 'no, no, no' this is wrong. It's a type of spiritual ego for followers of a personality cult leader which is simply false because maharaji is so amoral himself, and the facts on EPO bear this out. I think that meditation (as taught by m) also plays a large part in placing people in a vulnerable state of mind (or lack of mind) and character, so morals fly out the window. Deference to the god-in-a-bod. He is quite tyrannical and scary. Btw, have you read Joe's post above about Shaw? It's quite good. I think you'd relate. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:24:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, Thanks, I've just read Joe's post about Shaw, and yes it's brilliant, and yes I do relate. I shall bear all that information closely in mind when attemting to engage with current premies about all this stuff. It explains so much. Love, Livia X

Subject: Conventional morality, the Gita, and M From: Carl To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:13:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow I ended up with the notion, reinforced by the mahatmas, that 'remember Me and fight' -- Krishna's famous battlefield dictum to Arjunu -- meant one could and should practice holy name in all situations, even those entailing assaults upon conventional morality, and one would be essentially or spiritually free of the moral consequences. Actions performed under 'agya' were understood as liberating no matter what the conventional judgments of society or the legal system would be. Arjuna's kin, whom he was about to slay at Krishna's behest, were all dead anyway, presumably because they did not recognize Krishna as Lord and revealer of the Knowledge. Jesus propounded much the same with his 'Follow me. Let the dead bury the dead' and his other challenges to Pharisaic law. This notion that a devotee and a master transcend mere conventional, 'worldly', moral choices of right and wrong is deeply ingrained in M and his premies world. This is probably true for Scientologists and most other cults. This gives them the chutzpa to flout or skirt any laws as may $ituationally $uit them. And maybe, just maybe, that is not an altogether bad thing in theory. That is, there is a need for outmoded thinking to be challenged and laws changed from time to time. Otherwise we'd still be burned at the stake for believing the earth revolves around the sun. But it can also happen that the 'master is above it all' concept, as self-servingly interpreted by a shallow master and his venal cohorts, is merely the justification (consciously or not) to abuse and swindle the gullible. And most of us were 'had'. C.

Subject: great nutshell Micheal From: bill To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 00:15:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: m has a history of blaming others, creating co-dependent relationships that disimpower others, of being greedy and self serving while pose as the opposite.

Subject: A comment RII From: Richard To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:23:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard II, If you can take an honest and open-minded look at the 14 Objections and then sit before M and take him seriously, then you're the devotee he wants and he's the master for you. I haven't said that to anyone in quite awhile but you seem sincere. In fact, the last time I said it was to SHP(aka Sandy). Anybody know where he is these days? Richard, Original Postie Recipe 14 Objections www.ex-premie.org/pages/objection.htm

Subject: RE: your comment From: R2 To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:09:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have joined the same choir as mr. donner (who doesn't believe in capital letters because everything is equal) and others in this thread, who sing a song so imbalanced that Maharaji is actually compared to the likes of Hitler. Or the owners of the pit-bulls that mauled to death that lady in SF. Now that just amazes me. Why? Well because there are quite a number of people -- people who have spent more intimate time around him than mr. donner -- who paint an entirely different picture. One of kindness, compassion, respect. Staggering disonence, don't you think? Look Dick, as for those 14 objections, they are a compilation of a group of disgruntled people who desperately needed to articulate the venom and spite they were feeling. There is no objectivity. No fairness. No answers given. Just a lot of bile. Bile that you all make a steady diet of every freakin' day of your freakin' lives. Jeezus! And besides, you missed the point of my post -- surprise, surprise. That being, compared to the priceless gift my Master reveals to me, those objections don't even register on the scale. If it does for you, I have to ask: did you experience much more than just the surface stuff? The little I've seen of the potential in a moment makes me highly value Maharaji's insight, clarity, and kindness to take the time to teach me about it. I don't mean to sound arrogant but one thing I know for sure is that there is so much beauty that goes untapped due to unconsciousness. And I cut him a lot of slack just to keep learning about it. But hey Richard, forget about it -- if you don't get it you don't get it. But one thing, you guys really gotta get a grip about. He's not Hitler or anything resembling that. How out of touch is that? Not to mention, the fact you guys have forgotten -- or explained away -- the beauty you once felt, shows me how out of touch you are with your own self. Say, did my explanation of how a premie loses sight of the value in their lives of a Master ring true for you at all?

Subject: Re: RE: YOUR commentS TO RICHARD AND MICHAEL From: janet To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 06:57:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, do you have any idea who you're speaking to, here? Do you know who Michael Donner was, in his days in the organization? Do you have the slightest knowledge of what he does now? Or Richard Rogers? do you know his history in the organization either? Obviously not, or you would never make the ignorant statements that you just did. Michael reported directly to maharaji, one on one, both at the residence and at the office. I remember those years. I lived there, I saw him, I remember him. Richard Rogers too. Both of them, wonderful guys. I never saw either of them angry, nasty, pompous, never saw either of them abuse anyone else or put on airs or get swelled heads as a result of their nearness to the center of things. Both of them were dedicated premies, devout meditators, practicioners, truly sincere friends and fellows without a dark doubt or questionable tendency about them. You reveal your blindness and utter unknowingness when you say what you do about them. For that reason alone, all else that you so predictably recite falls flat. Oh, and by the way, I, too, experienced everything you hold up in your query. 27 years of it. But I have finally reached the tipping of the balance where none of it justifies what maharaji does, says, wants, is, has or asks for. I did my part. He squandered and wasted everything I rendered him. I took what he gave me. I did what he said. I watched what he did. And no more. I owe him nothing now. He's a master, all right, but not of what he's gulled you into believing he is. His is a seduction of the lewdest kind. Let me be perfectly crude: I liken what he plays upon to being the same as being wowed and overcome by [take your pick] a slick pimp or a smooth drug lord. When you're new and inexperienced, he can divert your attention and wrap you up and float you away into a lovely trance where you feel no pain and the world is far away. He knows how to do it to you. anytime he sees signs that you're getting restless, anxious, that you're beginning to become aware of things around you again, all he has to do is reach over and stick it to you again and you dream off and lose your hold and for a while, it works. But ya know, there comes a point when the stench in the rest of the house gets too strong. The place is filthy, the vermin are rampant, you smell, there's no food, if you have kids, they are neglected and imperiled..the house might even catch on fire or the police arrive and break the door down. He's gonna try the same old tricks on you to get you to forget and fall under his spell, but at some point, you start refusing. You get up and go look at the mess. You fight him off. You see what you've let him do to you. I don't care how great a lover he thinks he is. Maybe he doesnt know how to handle life with anything but his dick and his needle. But I have a brain and I do know how to handle life with more than that. And at some point, when the real world breaks in on me and i realize what he's been slipping his filthy fingers up my slit to keep me from noticing, I get up and leave for the last time. And no amount of his slippery smooth words can get me to turn around and come back. He's just a pimp daddy with no life, living off whoever he can trap, for however long he can trap them into doing for him. and he feeds off luring others down where he is, selling themselves for him, debasing themselves for him, believing without him they'd be nothing, making them afraid to leave him, bringing him all their money and taking all his abuse. There aint no gift, there, honey. The secret is, there aint no secret. As long as you believe he knows something you don't, he's got the power over you. He doesn't know anything special, honey. Anybody can squeeze your eyeballs and stick your thumbs in your ears and suck on your tongue. Anybody can breathe. He don't know nothing more than you or me. He's got you bamboozled. I don't care how good the drug is., I don't care how ggood the sex is, it can never be as important as making sure the rent is paid and the house doesnt burn down and the kids are safe and I am clean in myself, inside and out. Hit the road, Jack. one by one, you need to break each of the seductions he holds you prisoner with. that's all they are. if you leave him, you lose nothing. you keep all that you are. he needs you. you dont need him. if you leave him, he's the one who will panic and suffer. his income will dry up. his job in life will die. he will have no life, no meaning, no importance. he will have to face himself. there'll be no one left to fool, including himself. The illusion is broken.

Subject: My comments to you. From: R2 To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:34:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course I know michael donner. Many people report directly to Maharaji. They are not absolved from confusion because of that. Nor are 'dedicated premies, devout meditators, practicioners, truly sincere friends and fellows without a dark doubt or questionable tendency about them'. And may I say, neither is janet from Venice Beach.

Subject: Don't mind Janet, R2 -- she's a bit of a yard dog [nt] From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:01:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know that Janet's been giving you a hard time but it's that old ashram conditioning, I think. Not that she ever actually lived in one but, you know. It's that tendency to harrangue. I think she got it from Maharaji, frankly. Sure hope I don't catch it. :)

Subject: Can you spell 'hypocrite', Janet? From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:19:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You really crack me up, Janet. On the one hand, you criticize me for arguing with Dog and then, god forbid, ever thinking it makes a difference: he arrived at his change freely of his own process. not because you harangued him to. what is on the site for one and all speaks for itself. i know you love to go after people and argue them like a dog chasing cars, and then think that because you chased them, they left. but like those car i hate to burst your bubble: they were headed in that direction regardless of your barking. you wanna feel important. you wanna take the credit. but even without you, they would arrive at their own decision, anyway. Then, I look a little further in this same thread and, lo and behold, you're the EPITOME of the 'harranguer': Hit the road, Jack. one by one, you need to break each of the seductions he holds you prisoner with. that's all they are. if you leave him, you lose nothing. you keep all that you are. he needs you. you dont need him. if you leave him, he's the one who will panic and suffer. his income will dry up. his job in life will die. he will have no life, no meaning, no importance. he will have to face himself. there'll be no one left to fool, including himself. The illusion is broken. Must be all that ashram programming that you haven't broken free from, huh? Or maybe you think YOU are Maharaji! LOL!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: RE: your comment From: . To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 18:04:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .

Subject: You assume the objections to be invalid? From: cq To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:19:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, you say of the 14 objections that they are 'a compilation of a group of disgruntled people who desperately needed to articulate the venom and spite they were feeling. There is no objectivity. No fairness. No answers given. Just a lot of bile.' There's also been no attempt at an answer to these objections. Care to have a go? The 14 Objections An Open Letter to Prempal Rawat's Followers This letter presents the concerns and objections of a group of former followers of Maharaji and Knowledge. You are being offered this letter in hopes that you will carefully consider all the information provided. These 14 objections are very briefly outlined here, and we hope that you will obtain the whole story behind each of these objections, by visiting this website. 1. The Lord of the Universe When Mr. Rawat came to the West in the early 1970's, he proclaimed himself to be an Incarnation of God, equal to Jesus Christ and Buddha, the Satguru, the Avatar, the Perfect Master of our times. He claimed that salvation depended on complete surrender to his grace. Mr. Rawat now tries to cover-up and mitigate these earlier claims. He blames others for misrepresenting him. But hundreds of direct quotes from Mr. Rawat put the blame squarely on himself. See the ex-premie website for a collection of these quotations. 2. Finances Throughout the history of DLM/Elan Vital, Mr. Rawat has continually demanded monetary 'contributions' from his followers in order to support his obscenely lavish lifestyle, complete with several mansions, private jets, etc. 3. The Ashrams Mr. Rawat instructed his followers to abandon all family, sexual relations, education, and career goals to devote their lives entirely to his service, by living in his ashrams. When the ashrams became a financial liability to him, he closed them, leaving many of the ashram members in debt and poorly prepared to return to society. 4. The Jagdeo affair Mr. Rawat was informed by two of his close associates that his instructor Jagdeo was sexually molesting premie children. Mr. Rawat did not prevent Jagdeo from continuing in his service, traveling around the world, with access to more children. Two of the victims speak out on the ex-premie website. 5. The four techniques Mr. Rawat teaches what he calls Knowledge, which consists of four techniques of meditation. He claims to have the sole privilege of teaching these techniques. But in fact, these techniques are centuries old and are now taught by hundreds of gurus in India, and by several Western gurus. 6. The false history and lineage of DLM/Elan Vital Mr. Rawat claims to be the current master in a direct and unique lineage of masters. His website indicates that this lineage proceeds from the Master Dayal Ji (born 1846), to Swarupanand, to Shri Hans (Mr. Rawat's father), to Mr. Rawat himself. But this is a false claim. Swarupanand did not name Shri Hans as his successor and Swarupanand's devotees did not follow Shri Hans after Swarupanand's death. Instead, Shri Hans broke off from this organization and started his own new mission elsewhere. Swarupanand's mission was continued by several other mahatmas. Currently, several organizations claim a direct heritage to Swarupanand, including the Advait Mat, the Shree Nangli Sahib, the Radhasoami group, and the Manav Dharam. 7. X-rating Mr. Rawat has always enjoyed a lifestyle exactly opposite of what he teaches. The followers who are invited into his inner circle are 'x-rated', meaning that they are privileged with the information of Mr. Rawat's true materialistic and reckless lifestyle, promising to never divulge the information to the rank and file members of the Elan Vital cult. Former x-rated devotees have posted their experiences on the ex-premie website. 8. Several sexual affairs with premie women Mr. Rawat is known to have had several sexual affairs with his own female followers from 1984 to the present. First-hand accounts of these affairs are available at the ex-premie website. 9. Hit and run Mr. Rawat accidentally killed a man in an automobile accident. He instructed one of his followers to take the blame for the accident, and he himself fled the scene. A first-hand, eye-witness account of this accident is available at the ex-premie website. 10. Alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs Mr. Rawat has struggled with addiction to alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs. Eye-witness accounts of his drug use and his drunk driving are available at the ex-premie website. 11. The yacht Mr. Rawat recently purchased a 7-million-dollar yacht, named 'Serenity', yet he continues to charge substantial fees for his lectures and programs. Full information about the yacht is available at the ex-premie website. 12. Front row seats for sale What is mostly unknown to the rank and file member of Elan Vital, is that front row seats to Mr. Rawat's talks are for sale for thousands of dollars. 13. The inner experience Mr. Rawat encourages his followers to believe that anything they experience in meditation is due to his grace and influence. He teaches them to depend on him for all inner experiences for their entire lives. 14. Human relationships Mr. Rawat tells his followers that they should rely solely on the 'inner friend,' and that all other love relationships are secondary, imperfect, and not to be trusted. By following this teaching, his followers develop a toxic relationship with their own humanness.

Subject: Reply to R2 From: Richard To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:31:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, I'm not a Dick. My name is Richard like yours. Second, you do sound incredibly arrogant, judgemental and paranoid. Where in my very simple comment to you did I mention Hitler or offer you a bile sandwich? I thought my challenge to you was respectful and considerate. From what I glean from your extremely defensive and angry comments in this thread, you don't care at all about any of the objections raised here. If that is true, as I said above, you and M belong together. Go in peace and enjoy your life. Yes, I understood what you said about how a premie loses sight of the value of the Master. I just don't think that's what has happened to myself or any of the individuals here I've communicated with. Rather, M has lost sight of the mandate given him by his father and master then blames his failure on those closest to him. To borrow a phrase from M, if there is no master there can be no student. No, I didn't lose sight of the Master, I awoke to the reality that I was responsible for the love and pain in my life. The same goes for the one you consider your Master. Has he taken even a shred of responsibility for what harm he's done or only taken credit for what others have done for him? I don't think M is a Hitler, just the leader of a personality cult and people should know more about him than just the party line. Richard (aka Postie)

Subject: Re: Reply to R2 From: R2 To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:08:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny you would read into my personality paranoia, anger, and judgement. Farthest from the truth. Maybe me calling you Dick added a certain color to what you read. Okay okay, I only tried to cover a bunch of responses to me in one post, and painted you all with a broad brush. My apologies. So you don't liken him to Hitler personally, cool. But read the rest of the thread -- some of these people you don't know but speak so highly about have stated as much. As far as the objections...no I don't care. I've seen them all, weighed them against my personal touch-stone and concluded that you guys have really missed the boat.

Subject: Re: Reply to R2 From: janet To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:11:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in other words. nothing else matters, so long as you can get high. ok. that tells me what YOU are. look me up when you get sober. if you live that long.

Subject: Janet, I'm with R2 on this one From: Dep =) To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:01:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in other words. nothing else matters, so long as you can get high. ok. that tells me what YOU are. look me up when you get sober. if you live that long. --- But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33 and Luke 12:31 The meditative state comes first.

Subject: Spiritual Ego From: hamzen To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:04:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, in my world if even one tenth of the accusations about jagdeo and gm's knowledge of and cover up of are true, then even if a few people merged with god himself would be a side issue of little relevance. That you do not agree says a lot about spiritual arrogance, spiritual self absorbtion, and basic up your own arseness. You also, as do so many followers of different gurus I've known who've experienced the sublime, assume that their guru is unique, and that the act of psycho surrender isn't independent of the guru. For your information my experience of the practice of k too was sublime, but I know where that was generated from. I accept that in your case you obviously needed more reminding, but as usual with guru followers of any persuasion you have no idea how much you have blocked out to achieve that state. Thankfully in our society guru worship and personality cults are old hat now and way out of date. I know plenty of people now who are on a similar route, ie seeking certain experiences, but have benefitted from the social changes of the last twenty years past the kind of dependencies and surrender some of us needed, and just identify and readily embrace certain states as a natural part of living. By the way, the hitler comments were about the similarities of effects on their followers, and their similar self delusions. No-one has even suggested the effects on the jews was similar to the effects on premies, so lets cut out the specious arguments eh. I know the very thought for you of hitler and gm in the same sentence is too appalling for words, but that does not excuse you then missing the whole point of the argument. I refuse to patronise you in that way. Oh and by the way, thanks for this thread, best discussion I've seen here in ages.

Subject: Re: Spiritual Ego From: R2 To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:36:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, in my world if even one tenth of the accusations about jagdeo and gm's knowledge of and cover up of are true, then even if a few people merged with god himself would be a side issue of little relevance. Does your world include a god, or God? Do you think merging with God is a trivial thing? Do you care at all what God's values might be? Or you so full of your own you couldn't see them if he laid them out in front of you. In your world does a cover up require substatiated proof? As for the Hitler discussion, it's a non-starter for me. I could also draw parallels between Hitler youth and the boy scouts but that would be just as foolish. Oh and by the way, thanks for this thread, best discussion I've seen here in ages. Hey, no problem.

Subject: You prove my point From: hamzen To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:32:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly my point spiritual ego, immediately you can only fall back on such an issue as god consciousness being the be all and end all, because child abuse and it's avoidance don't count in comparison. And there was me thinking it was about truth, and love and compassion. Obviously I completely misinderstood knowledge, even though I had a beautiful time practicing the meditation. That and defending the person behind the personality cult, someone so infallible that not one word of criticism can be allowed. Sounds remarkably like the infallibility of the pope and any other religious leader. Are you interested if there had been a cover up? Does it matter one iota to you that gm himself arraged for an attempted murderer to escape justice, I suspect not. But leaving these things aside what about gm's avoidance of the jagdeo issue NOW. He has done nothing to help the victims, has put no pressure on EV to deal with the victims with compassion, the only thing he has done is drive a wedge between one of the victims and her father. His whole behaviour in this affair has been callous. As a premie I was appalled at the way the roman catholic church covered up the sexual abuse that priests had committed, and EV and GM have behaved in EXACTLY the same way since it all became common knowledge. Rather curious for the person supposedly embued with the grace of god on this planet. Of course you will not be able to deal with these issues because you are in a personality cult and a religion, and you will react like the followers of any other personality cult and religion. This site, if has done nothing else, has at least given a voice to various abused people who during the news blackout and propaganda spin of the last thirty years did not have one. And what about this'Or you so full of your own you couldn't see them if he laid them out in front of you.' You've already used this line elsewhere in reply to someone else, are you so out of touch that you still think the only alternative to being a premie is to be in 'your mind' and your 'ego'? Thankfully the people with learning disabilities I've slaved away working for for years, under appalling conditions, organizational abuse, and low wages, would find that comment laughable, as would all of my mates. My ego as a premie was a lot larger, because I was full of exactly the kind of spiritual ego you have been displaying here. I bet you also think no follower of any other guru could have the kinds of experiences you have, and that no other guru would stand comparison to gm.

Subject: I prove bugger all From: R2 To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 01:01:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you stop being such an irritating church lady. Go ahead and get appalled by all the wrong doing on the planet, and while you're at it make sure you find somebody to blame. Sheesh, after a while you just gotta tune people like you out.

Subject: but this guy's a 'church lady'. uh huh. From: so there's no place for God To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:22:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but of course, you're godly. no time for such worthless activities as helping the disabled, no; screw them; they're just in the way. you wanna squeeze your eyeballs and block up your ears. the people have no bread; let them eat cake.

Subject: Highly amusing From: hamzen To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 03:10:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: coming from you and your holier than thou god consciousness. Too much to expect any values other than pure self indulgence, and as usual not a single point answered. Pure troll

Subject: Follow up to R2 From: Richard To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:41:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I've misjudged your character, then accept my apologies. But telling us that you know the Truth and we've missed the boat does sound arrogant to me. Thanks for your apologies re: painting with a broad brush. There is no group think here, just a good number of individuals who feel free enough to tell our stories. And thanks for your honesty in saying you don't care about anything that has been said about M here. If you can live with that, enjoy your life. Far be it from me to try to convince anyone otherwise. But, having lived in his ashram for 3 years, served him by designing his publications for 6 years and practiced K faithfully for 14 years, I do have the obligation to say what I know from my own experience with M&K and let others decide for themselves.

Subject: R2-Here's my take on the 'beauty', the 'value' From: Jim S. To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:46:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey R2- I give you credit for being civil and trying to engage in some dialogue here. In fact, you're even willing to admit that your master might have a few character flaws, and a propensity to tell a few 'whoppers' from time to time that he now tries to pretend he never said. Few premies will do that, which tells me something about them, but you're willing to admit the possibility of these things, and I give you credit for that. A few comments about your post: 1-Mr. Donner, as well as Mr. Dettmers and the deceased Mr. Mischler were 3 of the closest people ever, to m, for many, many years. Mr. Mischler was around m for about 6-7 years, constantly. My understanding is that Mr. Donner was one of the 'inner circle' (and head of the initiators for 4 years, I believe) for about 12-15 years. It is also my understanding that Mr. Dettmers was one of the most trusted 'inner circle' members for about 12-15 years as well, and actually ran the organization and had special access to m for many of those years. I'm assuming that those three men had far more access to m than you did. I'm also quite certain that at times m can be quite charming, loving, funny...maybe even caring, although I'm not sure about that one at this point. The point is that maybe you should listen to what these men are saying. M may have nice qualities...I'm sure he does, as we all do. But the fact is, he has lied, deceived, used, manipulated and misled thousands of people all over the world by his false statements and actions. He has taken in hundreds of millions of dollars over the last 30 years through this 'bait and switch' operation. He now refuses to acknowledge any of this, and when confronted, either retreats or blames others for the mess that he has created. The 'staggering dissonance' that you refer to, between the 2 faces of m, might just come from the fact that in every day life he is one way, and on the stage an idealized 'perfect master' persona is presented, upon which all kinds of indivual projections may take place, that present quite another face. Every good actor or rock star can and does enact this stage persona, and some of them are quite good at being someone they are not,especially when the crowd is good,the lights are up, and they are being adored or worshipped by a few hundred or thousand people. Once again, they are revered for presenting an image of someone they are not, but that the crowd needs and loves to see presented in and by someone else. When the crowd realizes that THEY can be the image they are worshipping on stage, the play ends. It is my belief that a real teacher encourages this in the student, rather than continuing the master-slave dependency relationship. What kind of 'master' is this, who refuses to take responsibility for the harm he has done, and only takes credit for what good he thinks he has done? What kind of 'truth' is this, that can't be questioned? What kind of example is m, when he refuses to answer the simple question 'Do YOU (m) practice everyday? End of rant, now back to the beauty and value statements... I agree, much of the beauty in life is lost, due to unconsciousness. However, my experience has shown me that I am far MORE conscious in life, by NOT hitching my wagon to the master. My overall experience of day to day life is FAR more conscious, happy, human and simple by simply being myself each day, rather than always trying to be in 'that place' or in m's 'agya' or waiting for him to manifest his 'unique vision.' When I stopped trying to do it his way, I realized that I already had it myself....I became a free man, and a happier one as well. I've had far more of what we used to call 'satsang', or speaking the truth, with the ex-premies on epo, than I've had in over the last decade with premies. The communication is far more inspiring than listening to the latest video where m tells you to appreciate life, remember the breath or to feel gratitude. Put simply, life is far more beautiful without m, than with him. He is a drag to the system, and his methods create a dependence on him rather than foster your own self awareness. Ironically, while proudly proclaiming that he (m) doesn't need any 'middlemen' between him and his creator, his teaching implies that YOU do. While setting the example that he has no intermediary, he then proceeds to tell you,the student, that you MUST have one.....remember, no one goes home without the master, right? As far as the value of the master in ones life goes.....for me, when I let him go, that's when I awakened to the true possibility of how nice life could be WITHOUT the anchor of devotion to him bringing me down. While m would probably say that devotion to him is the 'anchor' in your life to what is real, I would say that his 'anchor', like all anchors, keeps you stuck in one place, keeps your boat from sailing and seeing what it's real potential is, and keeps you tied to a place where you once were, but may not want to be now, or in the future. So the 'value' in having a 'master' in your life? I gues I might pose the question back to you in another way.... 'Does the explanation of how a person gains sight of the value of NOT having a master in their life, ring true for you?' Just wondering.... PS:About those 14 objections-can you explain specifically which ones you think are filled with bile, are unfair, or not objective? As far as the 14 statements giving answers, they are not supposed to! They are questions and statements that we are waiting for your master to answer!

Subject: Re: R2-Here's my take on the 'beauty', the 'value' From: R2 To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:26:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your respectful reply Jim. My comments are below. 1-Mr. Donner, as well as Mr. Dettmers and the deceased Mr. Mischler were 3 of the closest people ever, to m, for many, many years. Closest? Really? Z’at true mike? Sounds like Dettmers was closer to Divine Light Mission than to Maharaji. I'm assuming that those three men had far more access to m than you did. Unquestionably. The point is that maybe you should listen to what these men are saying. I listen to a lot of things Jim, including these guys. I also temper it with what I know of human nature. But there’s one thing I listen to that seems to have eluded you – although you would probably be loath to admit it. And that is what I’ve seen with my heart. They say the heart cannot be fooled -- sorta like a baby can tell when someone is not nice to be around. So what about it Jim, did your heart let you down or did you just stop listening to it? M may have nice qualities...I'm sure he does, as we all do. But the fact is, he has lied, deceived, used, manipulated and misled thousands of people all over the world by his false statements and actions. He never mislead me Jim. As a matter of fact he told me exactly what to expect in life. Maybe you didn’t hear that part. He has taken in hundreds of millions of dollars over the last 30 years through this 'bait and switch' operation. Bait and switch? Say, why don’t you get the IRS to do an audit on him. Really! If there’s something nefarious going on don’t you think they would be in the best position to find it? He now refuses to acknowledge any of this, and when confronted, either retreats or blames others for the mess that he has created. Quotes please. One where one of you brave souls “confront” him, and he “retreats and blames others”. And Jim if there’s a mess with what he has done it is only in the minds of ex-premies. What I see is someone continuing to spread a message of hope that thirsty people still appreciate, in spite of a small group of people who have lost faith in that message and are bent on being a thorn in his side. The 'staggering dissonance' that you refer to, between the 2 faces of m, might just come from the fact that in every day life he is one way, and on the stage an idealized 'perfect master' persona is presented, upon which all kinds of indivual projections may take place, that present quite another face. Every good actor or rock star can and does enact this stage persona, and some of them are quite good at being someone they are not,especially when the crowd is good,the lights are up, and they are being adored or worshipped by a few hundred or thousand people. Once again, they are revered for presenting an image of someone they are not, but that the crowd needs and loves to see presented in and by someone else. Nice dissertation Jim but I wasn’t talking about those of us on this side of the stage. I was talking about premies who may have lived with him for many years. People who are perhaps a step or two closer in than was Mishler, donner, or Dettmers. They present a totally different picture than these guys have. Ah…except of course for Dettmers who, as you know, started out speaking very highly of Maharaji. What kind of example is m, when he refuses to answer the simple question 'Do YOU (m) practice everyday? Huh? Is this the kind of stuff that bends ex-premies all out of shape? Is the music teacher wrong in advising their student to practice every day? Even if he himself plays now mostly for the joy of it? Because, by the way, therein is the best “practice” for one who has mastered an art? Something once Mastered is approached quite differently than as when a novice. This applies to any artistic endeavor. Not to sound arrogant but I know something about this. End of rant, now back to the beauty and value statements... Thanks. However, my experience has shown me that I am far MORE conscious in life, by NOT hitching my wagon to the master. My overall experience of day to day life is FAR more conscious, happy, human and simple by simply being myself each day, rather than always trying to be in 'that place' or in m's 'agya' or waiting for him to manifest his 'unique vision.' If you are happier now, that’s great. But you must be open to the possibility that this could be for one of two reasons. Either, you were not getting it and you are now better off, or you were in fact getting it and it was crap. I know you believe the latter Jim but there is that other possibility. When I stopped trying to do it his way, I realized that I already had it myself....I became a free man, and a happier one as well. I came to a similar realization Jim but it happened a little differently for me. My story is I was happier when I stopped doing it the way I thought he wanted it done, and just let myself be. I remember the freedom I felt, and I was extremely grateful I didn’t have to abandon something that had enriched my life immeasurably for so many years. As far as the value of the master in ones life goes.....for me, when I let him go, that's when I awakened to the true possibility of how nice life could be WITHOUT the anchor of devotion to him bringing me down. Cool, but you are still anchored to him only you are hanging over the other bow now. You probably think about him as much today as you did as a premie. So the 'value' in having a 'master' in your life? I gues I might pose the question back to you in another way.... 'Does the explanation of how a person gains sight of the value of NOT having a master in their life, ring true for you?' Just wondering.... No, for the reasons I’ve explained above. PS:About those 14 objections-can you explain specifically which ones you think are filled with bile, are unfair, or not objective? As far as the 14 statements giving answers, they are not supposed to! They are questions and statements that we are waiting for your master to answer! Couldn’t remember wasn’t there one similar to, “What kind of example is m, when he refuses to answer the simple question 'Do YOU (m) practice everyday?” Just an example.

Subject: R2 - about babies From: Disculta To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 04:12:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi R2D2 You responded to the question: 'The point is that maybe you should listen to what these men are saying.' with this: 'I listen to a lot of things Jim, including these guys. I also temper it with what I know of human nature. But there’s one thing I listen to that seems to have eluded you – although you would probably be loath to admit it. And that is what I’ve seen with my heart. They say the heart cannot be fooled -- sorta like a baby can tell when someone is not nice to be around. So what about it Jim, did your heart let you down or did you just stop listening to it?' ______________________ I don't know who 'they' are who say the heart cannot be fooled. This may be true after a lot of conscious exploration and deprogramming of one's own heart or of what I would prefer to call the emotional body or limbic brain. But about them babies: Babies don't 'know' who is safe and worthy of love, as any family therapist knows, who has seen a baby crying for return to a parent who was beating her to death. The 'knowing' of the heart is much more mysterious: early in life, or in new life-stages, we 'imprint' like goslings, on whoever seems to be our parent, who nurtures us, no matter how sparsely. This imprinting goes very deep and comes to feel like the deepest truth of love. It's what makes the juices flow. All of us who are or were premies experienced a bonding with MJ, or our idea of him, which created neurological pathways of intense attachment - all the more intense because we were bonding with the LORD, with all the terror and grandiosity with which those notions charged up our squirting neuropeptides. I don't wish to be mean, but that powerful attachment wasn't love, as I discovered after emerging from it and gradual recovering a more intact limbic self-organization. You could say that I and others just didn't get it, but we did. Most of us who post here were passionately devoted. Love could be defined lots of ways - how about an honest, self-disclosing, mutually caring interaction between two people who know each other. Then there is being a fan, or a speck of dust at lotus feet, which is different. Respectfully yours,

Subject: R2-a few quick repsonses From: Jim S. To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 21:18:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear R2- First of all, would you be so kind as to divulge your entire name? It feels funny to write to someone known as R2, or Richard. Also, would you care to tell a bit about your involvement over the years with maharaji? As for me, you can read my open letters to EV in the 'Best Of' section for starters about where I am coming from. A few responses, briefly, as I'm going skiing in a few hours.... 1-as to the 'closeness' of Donner and Dettmers, you can ask them here on the forum. Believe me, they saw plenty, and have also reported nice things as well as the sleaze. Why don't you ask them specifically what turned them off? Did my heart let me down, or did I just stop listening to it? Answer: Neither. My heart is as strong as ever, and I am as close to it as ever. I simply had an awakening, and realized that maharaji was disempowering me, and encouraging devotion to him, not an opening of the heart. My heart told me to leave, because I simply found something much better. 2-Has maharaji lied to us and misled us? Answer: I'm not sure when you hopped on the maharji train, but i did in 1972. Look at what he said then and through the next 15 years, and compare all that to what he says now. If you can't spot the lies, I'll be happy to point them out to you, but the epo site is filled with examples that are 100% accurate-they are HIS statements then, and he completely denies them now. 3-Bait and switch? Answer: Absolutely. The bait was all of the grandiose statements about himself and his work, along with all of the pathetic prophesies that he made, none of which ever came close to being true. Once again, check out the epo archives for confirmation. While you're at it, why not ask maharaji himself or EV if he ever made thsoe statements that he now denies. 4-M retreats or blames others. Answer: Absolutely. Most recent example is in Philly when a premie asked him if he practices every day. M refused to answer, as he has done in 2 videos that I watched, unedited, from amaroo, where he refused to answer that same question. They were subsequently edited out for general premie consumption. Blames others? Yes. Most recent example is the Atlanta training program, where he declared that he never said he was God (oh really, how about those epo archives?) and blamed all of the concepts about that, on the original Indian mahatmas and Indian devotees. Yes, he blames them, rather than face it straight on. 5-People who were closer than Dettmers or Donner... Answer: Please tell us some real names, with their real accounts of what transpired. Also, let's ask them if maharaji has a drinking problem and a mistress on the side. Concerning the mistress, I've talked to the premie brought in to counsel her....(not going to say more about it right now) 6-Does m practice everyday. Is that relevant? Answer: To me it is, absolutely. Maybe not to premies, but I guarantee you that most new people would like to know more about that one. And isn't it just the right thing to do? To tell new people that the master yells at the premies to practice a minimum of one hour each day, but doesn't do it himself. Shouldn't they know that, and be able to ask maharaji about that? 7-Was I getting it or not? Answer: Yeah, I got it, for almost 30 years. What I simply realized is that are far better ways to 'get it', and that m's way is far from perfect, and in fact, quite bizarre and misleading. 8-Anchored to maharaji still, just on the other side? Answer: You've got to be kidding! No, not anchored to the good ship maharaji, but happily off the ship as it tacks from one side to the other,passengers jmumping ship, and donations not keeping it afloat too well. I thank God that I don't think about him each day, and feel absolutely no need to do anything for him. It's a liberation, believe me, to get your life back again. 9-About those 14 objections. You know, the ones filled with hate, bile, unfairness and a lack of objectivity, with no answers.... Answer: Can you tell me if my question to maharaji about his personal practice was filled with hate, bile, unfairnedss or a lack of objectivity? It seemed to be pretty staight forward to me....and I've yet to get an answer from either you, any other premie or maharaji himself. I'd still like to get your answers to the 14 objections....

Subject: JSCA, Richard II From: Gregg To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:42:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your comments, R2. We don't get many real live premies posting here. I think we pretty much know where you're coming from, having been there ourselves, and you pretty much know where we're coming from, having (assumedly) read some of the documents on EPO and some postings here. Let me clear up one thing for you, though. In your last post, you said, 'You probably think about him as much today as you did as a premie.' Not true for us! If by 'moving on' you mean discarding and forgetting our past PWK lives, no, we have not erased our memories. Some of us are angry, but the vast majority of those who post here have a sense of humor about the years we spent with M. Many have good memories. Ultimately, though, it seems pretty obvious to us that our experiences did not come from Prem Pal Rawat. We believed they did at the time, as you still do. Do you not think it possible that your thirst for God has been projected on the guy? (Don't reflexively answer, 'But my experience...') Most gurus/masters encourage their students to question what 'experience' is, and 'who' is having that 'experience.' M, on the other hand, said: 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind.' We do not live in a bilious pond. Many of us meditate. (I've been practicing under the direction of a different teacher for fifteen years. I am not blind to the benefits of a spiritual teacher.) We do not live to dis Maharaji. I hadn't given him much thought for twenty years or so until I ran across this site, which is a hell of a lot of fun and a better time-waster than Tetris. At least I can practice writing. Good luck with your spiritual practice.

Subject: Thinking about Maharaji From: Lesley To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:34:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I take exception to this idea that premies have, that, on exiting, a person continues to think about Maharaji, as much as ever, but now in a negative way. I can understand why premies think this, they do so because they are emotionally attached to Maharaji, and believe in him, and so cannot conceive that someone who once was in the same boat could have moved on. I have, I assure you. As a premie, I thought about Maharaji a lot. At the least, I would think about him when I sat to meditate, or lined up to kiss his feet. Now, I don't consider him in the least. That does not mean that I have not spent considerable time examining the effect Mr Rawat's little stage show has had on my life, and the ramifications of what I have learnt from my considerations, it has been quite edifying to say the least. And, of course, this board provides the unique chance to converse with those starry eyed premies whom I lined up with in the first place, now, like myself, older and wiser, and much more fun and interesting to talk with than we ever were. When someone sells you a dud, on realising that, of course you feel angry, commensurate with the price you paid. But you don't spend more time thinking about the silly man who conned you than you have to.

Subject: Re: Thinking about Maharaji From: R2 To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:43:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When someone sells you a dud, on realising that, of course you feel angry, commensurate with the price you paid. But you don't spend more time thinking about the silly man who conned you than you have to. Cool Lesley. You are one of the ones who may have found some balance. As for it being a dud, for me it's not. It continues to bring a richness into my life that is as life giving as the air I breathe.

Subject: It is a dud R2 From: Lesley To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:23:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A sickening richness. Thanks for calling me cool, though!

Subject: For you, it no doubt was [nt] From: R2 To: Lesley Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 01:02:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, Shit! From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It continues to bring a richness into my life that is as life giving as the air I breathe. Oh, Shit, I just threw up all over my computer keyboard.

Subject: ****BEST OF**** thanks JimS [nt] From: gerry To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:27:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey Richard! From: Patrick W To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 08:34:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the fact you guys have forgotten -- or explained away -- the beauty you once felt, shows me how out of touch you are with your own self. Say, did my explanation of how a premie loses sight of the value in their lives of a Master ring true for you at all? It is not a question of anyone 'losing sight', it is a question of gaining insight into the ways that valuing such a person as a Master to such a degree, can actually devalue your life if you're not careful. Richard, I am sure that most people who post here do not feel that they are out of touch wih their own selves as you would judge them. Also, as a premie, you have particular ideas about what being 'in touch' means - feeling your 'heart', 'devotion' etc. Here there are a variety of feelings and opinions as to what it means to be truly in touch with ones self. Here you will certainly find that people do not ignore their minds like , as premies, we were encouraged to do. Some do not feel the need to continue meditating and think it is a dangerous practice, some like myself continue with the practice and find it rewarding - although not with the same 'premie' associations. I still meditate regularly, using the techniques that Maharaji (and many others) have taught over the years. There's no big secret in them you know. The fact is that if you focus yourself in these sorts of ways - within - we can, with or without Maharaji, experience a certain amount of calming down of our thoughts and the perception of a deeper well of peace. As far as I'm concerned I know that knowledge (meaning the experience of so-called Light, Music, Nectar, Breath energy etc. ) works fine without Maharaji in the picture. In fact for me it works better because I found the whole 'Master- student' trip very dysfunctional in a lot of respects. I had some objections (many ethical) but mostly personal, that eventually made me feel too uncomfortable to accept or be a part of that set up. I did not wholly enjoy it any more. Can you not grasp the possibility that what followers of Maharaji ( or indeed followers of other Gurus like those of his own brother Satpal) think is such a priceless gift from their Master is something that has always been in you and is simply something that you can access perfectly well without a master? At the end of the day, if you find Maharaji kind, compassionate and a great inspiration to listen to that's great. But you cannot expect others to share that perspective when they have had different experiences. Sure there are those who know Maharaji and find him a great guy etc. Others maybe saw another side of him don't you think? Why do they have to be seen by you as plain wrong? Sounds a little like you don't want your rosy picture to be disturbed. I think that if you're after the Truth you need to embrace the whole picture. Sure if you look at M from a subserviant perspective -projecting onto him 'Masterliness' - then he will fulfill that role ... what you want him to be. But that usually involves, like the followers of Hitler did during WW2, having such trust and faith in someone - who is an extremely dynamic and forceful person - that one overlooks or just plain does not see their faults until it is too late. I don't want to upset you too much with this Hitler analogy because I know that M is a different kettle of fish. However your mentioning Hitler was somewhat timely since last night I watched a very good new television documentary about Hitler which contained many interviews with members of his former staff, Hitler Youth, ordinary german citizens, soldiers and commanders of the 3rd Reich. They all said that at the time they were hugely impressed by Hitler and saw him as literally a 'paragon of all the virtues' and they found his confidence and manner both totally inspiring and compelling (to be honest they sounded a lot like premies) to the extent that they put their doubts if they had any, to one side and trusted him. To put their faith in him was for the time-being enormously elating. It is elating to have a 'father figure' who takes on the responsibility of looking after you - you don't have to work things out for yourself - the Master is going to lead - all you have to do is follow. This of course is too simple - fatally simplistic. Of course there was a big let-down later when he led the german people into dire straights. These interviwees unanimously declared that they now hugely regret that they allowed themselves to be so 'hypnotised' by his charisma and persuaded that he had their best interests at heart. They all said they wished dearly that they could have had the strength to resist his charisma and think for themselves - to doubt him at the time. All, especially the military persons who met him, spoke of him having had such a great self-confidence, irresistably charismatic manner, that it made him a tempting leader to follow. They later came to see that his self-confidence was not based in reality and was a delusion. Furthermore - hindsight being 20/20 - they could see see in retrospect that Hitler had actually been insane. One former general described him as having been 'genuinely deluded' and said that he was 'brilliant' but nevertheless 'insane' and 'pedalling delusion' and thus an extremely dangerous person to invest with such power as they all did. One parallel with Hitler and Maharaji, (I'm afraid to say but it is true) is that both have at times clearly used fear to control people and have hidden their private lives from their followers so that their 'image' is preserved. Hitler in a far more obscene and widereaching way - but both share the fact that they have had megalomaniac aspirations too. (Megalomania= 'the delusion that one is great or powerful' ). Maharaji admittedly seems to have realised that it may seen to be taking things a bit too far to allow onself to be feted as 'Lord of the Universe' but 'Master' - what meaning does this apparently innocuous current title now disguise? Once self-proclaimed 'Perfect Master' and 'Lord' - the implied association with Divine Authority is inescapable - Hitler possibly would have settled merely for Emperor of the Third Reich! To my mind, all premies are caught in this fundamental belief that Maharaji somehow represents Divine Authority- even if it's just the idea that he is this ordinary humble guy who has been 'elected' - 'chosen' - even 'burdened' by God with the responsibility to go around getting people to 'go inside'. There is never any clarity about the constantly changing title -'Master' which seems just to be a replacement for the original word 'Guru' - which they're so embarrassed about, but which seems perhaps more honest a description. So what is this Master with a capital M? It certainly isn't clear to premies. It's just something they call him to give him an air of authority. What does he teach? Not how to do meditation - you can do that without him. What he seems to teach - judging by the evidence of his so-called 'students' - is dependency on him. But why? What's the good in that?? Tell me Richard I'm all ears ...what exactly is the priceless gift my Master reveals to me? Is it just the meditation experience and it's effect on my life ( which I am telling you I am NOT missing) or is it some revelation about M's glory that I can bask in - which I've missed? just exactly what do you think I am missing?? What exactly is this priceless gift?

Subject: Hitler & grace From: hamzen To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:30:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was also fascinating that in the attempt on his life which he survived he attributed to fate verging on grace. Also interesting how his delusions of grandeur and constant failure of his mad plans (think phase 2) when they went wrong were always the fault of 'others' even though in both instances they had a level of control that most managing directors would die for. Democracy may be flawed, but the alternative as we all know too well is apalling, the effect of gm maybe small fry compared to hitler but the similarities on an abstract level were truly revealing, an excellent programme.

Subject: Re: Hey Pat! From: R2 To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:23:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me Richard I'm all ears ...what exactly is the priceless gift my Master reveals to me? Is it just the meditation experience and it's effect on my life ( which I am telling you I am NOT missing) or is it some revelation about M's glory that I can bask in - which I've missed? just exactly what do you think I am missing?? What exactly is this priceless gift? First I just want to say, that was an awfully long post. Don’t mean to undermine your desire to express yourself but hey, life is short. Anyway, here it is. The priceless gift is to know eternity. The other part of this gift is to have someone who cares enough to show me. Why is that so priceless? Well, the truth of the matter is it is so damned hard to know eternity that to have someone consistently come and actually reveal it to me so I can learn to know it for myself is a gift beyond imagination. I remember growing up, a kid who didn’t know she needed glasses. Her mother took her to a doctor; they did tests; and they discovered she was practically blind. It was only after she had glasses that you could have convinced her she couldn’t see.

Subject: To R2...Satsanging... From: Cynthia To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:30:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, the following is such typical ''satsang'' from 'any-premie' you can't even see it: Anyway, here it is. The priceless gift is to know eternity. The other part of this gift is to have someone who cares enough to show me. Why is that so priceless? Well, the truth of the matter is it is so damned hard to know eternity that to have someone consistently come and actually reveal it to me so I can learn to know it for myself is a gift beyond imagination. I remember growing up, a kid who didn’t know she needed glasses. Her mother took her to a doctor; they did tests; and they discovered she was practically blind. It was only after she had glasses that you could have convinced her she couldn’t see. Did the eye doctor show her eternity? Did he say, 'If you give me your life, I will give you glasses, sight?' I don't think so. That's the inherent flaw in your statements. You have been conditioned to think and believe what m showed you is 'truth or eternity.' Yes, yes...you'll say, 'It's my experience, and you can't know it.' But that argument is flawed. It's the same thing that anyone in any religion or cult would say to defend their belief system. You are tightly wound, and for many years, into a belief system in an imaginary friend, M, who has you convinced he showed you something unique. If he showed you eternity, when's he going to merge you with it? And at what cost? What you said above is trite and old. It's the same old argument given before. Just don't forget, there are many of us here who also were stuck in your same mindset. So, getting out of the cult gives us an even clearer view of what you are stuck into--the muck of the personality cult. Always leave room for doubt in your mind... Cynthia

Subject: Re: Hey Pat! From: Patrick W To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:30:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First I just want to say, that was an awfully long post. Don’t mean to undermine your desire to express yourself but hey, life is short. Anyway, here it is. The priceless gift is to know eternity. The other part of this gift is to have someone who cares enough to show me. Why is that so priceless? Well, the truth of the matter is it is so damned hard to know eternity that to have someone consistently come and actually reveal it to me so I can learn to know it for myself is a gift beyond imagination. I remember growing up, a kid who didn’t know she needed glasses. Her mother took her to a doctor; they did tests; and they discovered she was practically blind. It was only after she had glasses that you could have convinced her she couldn’t see. I don't need a long post to answer that. Thanks. I must admit that as a premie in the past, I too may have praised Maharaji as one who had cared about me enough to show me eternity...or some such ultimate sounding praise... perhaps in a paroxysm of blissfull enthusiasm or in a poetic moment. But that eternal moment - do you really really think that this is really something that is Maharaji's gift? That is a mouthful. Personally I can't see it. Aren't you just projecting that role onto him? Anyway thanks for your reply.. I remember feeling that way. An honest reply for once.

Subject: Just one question, Patrick From: Jim To: Patrick W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:29:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As far as I'm concerned I know that knowledge (meaning the experience of so-called Light, Music, Nectar, Breath energy etc. ) works fine without Maharaji in the picture. We were told that Knowledge was a set of meditation techniques for realizing God. What exactly do you mean by they 'work'?

Subject: Re: Just one question, Patrick From: Patrick W To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:10:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wrote: As far as I'm concerned I know that knowledge (meaning the experience of so-called Light, Music, Nectar, Breath energy etc. ) works fine without Maharaji in the picture. You ask: We were told that Knowledge was a set of meditation techniques for realizing God. What exactly do you mean by they 'work'? Well, I mean that the experience of so-called Light, Music, Nectar, Breath energy etc. work...not necessary in fulfilling the idea of realizing God ... but nevertheless work when I do them, to give certain sensations which I quite like. Ie. Something happens. Actually Jim I find this type of meditation yields quite physical results. Personally I am a bit of a fan of sitting bolt upright (a la Cartoon Network's 'Samurai Jack') - it feels good for my back for one thing. Also I find that the action of sitting down quietly for a little while is a chance to think even to reflect. I know that was kind of the antithesis of what you were supposed to do as a premie, but wasn't that a large part of it in reality? Basically we all sat there doing the techniques thinking away merrily until we settled down a bit and maybe got caught up looking at whatever light played before our closed eyes. Nowadays I am much more relaxed to sit and think because I don't accept that the Mind is 'out to get me' etc. rather I think that it is simply the case that it's fun to sit and allow the mental process settle down while you concentrate on the ryhthm of your breath and the glowing sensation around what people call 'the third eye' area. I have done meditation with a variety of mental attitudes, from 'begging for illumination in tears' to just a fairly casual routine attentive practice. What I learned was that it helps to concentrate hard, even if for a brief period. The kind of subservience that we had as devotees dependent on and believing that 'Maharaji Grace' would come and bless our meditations if we were lucky or grovelled enough -was pure spin- playing on religious emotions -but it had the effect of getting us to concentrate. I now renounce the need for my concentration to be bolstered by such mechanisms. No longer could I possibly meditate out of fear as to what prey I would become to The Mind if I didn't, or out of obedience or even hope for Divine revelation. More or less now I look upon the results of the practice as largely physiological phenomena which I am subecting myself to. I do find that often I emerge from meditation with a lighter feeling that affords me to be more tolerant of my kids, playful and full of laughter. More loving sometimes to I fancy. That is a result - that is why I say it 'works' for me. When I say that the techniques work in a quite physical way I mean that I get physically relaxed from this practice. I look at it like a form of Yoga which of course historically it is. I have noticed that there is a tendency to get hooked on the feeling , I suppose that this could be seen as negative 'escapism' - much like one would associate with drug taking. I agree that it can be like this. This to me explains why many premies that I know are so into dope smoking along with meditation. I think that dope actually has some similar effects to meditation and you know what? - I hadn't smoked for years (since pulling away from M's orbit.) neither did I care to meditate - the associations still having power over me. Then a while ago I start to do a lot of meditation and wallop! No sooner do I get a little momentum going than I feel tempted to go and get stoned with my friends. I look at this as an irrational behaviour that was clearly brought on by me getting all high meditating and wanting a similar more immediate fix. After all I was well out of the smoking loop and didnt really want to get drawn back into that habit. So yes there are dangers.. but I like to balance my rational world with some healthy good old-fashioned bliss. I am just trying to find the balance. Isn't it interesting that people who go for meditation and 'high ideal talk' often have difficulty living a healthy non-addictive life style. Kahlil Gibran for example died a lonely alcoholic in New York and apparently had major relationship difficulties. Similarly we hear reports of Maharaji's private inordinate drinking etc. and certainly many of my high-minded premie friends have many problems of this kind despite being avid meditators. I have not conclusively made my mind up as to the extent to which meditation is either 'good' or 'bad'. The trick is, it would seem, not to get caught up in simplistic illusions about what turns you on. As I wrote to Richard II, those people who let themselves unquestioningly follow Hitlers way, grew later (if they survived) to bitterly regret their former unwariness. But Hitler had once turned them on 'big time '. He was seen very much in a 'saviour' role. I am, I suppose, someone who meditates hopefully with my eyes open to the pitfalls and who certainly is not paying undue deference to the agency from which I learned the techniques. So I hope that answers your question.

Subject: Re: RE: your comment From: Pullaver To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 08:12:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, You missed the point. You said to Dep Dog that there was a third option regarding the reportage on EPO - that the information concerning M was true but M was still the master. According to your theory of not being able to judge the master by his character only by the value of his teaching, the master could be a Hitler in terms of character but if he came dispensing Knowledge that would be okay in your book. I say if your teacher proves to be a spoiled, greedy, self-serving, megalomaniac - walk away. If you feel he has shown you something that is wonderful within you, consider yourself lucky that you are not leaving empty-handed.

Subject: The Beauty I felt, and EPO From: JHB To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 06:01:01 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Richard, The beauty I felt and feel, and the beauty you feel, has nothing to do with Prempal Rawat, and it is his insistence that it does that shows that he lacks integrity. What you experience is the result of your own effort and sincerity, nothing else. No magic grace, no special teaching from Maharaji, just you and your own effort. You mention the content of EPO being the result of 'a group of disgruntled people who desperately needed to articulate the venom and spite they were feeling'. As the current webmaster I can assure you I do not feel venom and spite. I feel a moral obligation to warn others about Maharaji, having followed him, and yes, experienced Knowledge, for 25 years. The exhiliaration, and relief, I feel after breaking free I want to share with others. So that's my motivation. As to the content of EPO, apart from the venom and spite you perceive, is there anything to your knowledge factually incorrect? Your post is a little ambiguous on this point. On the one hand you imply it's a fabrication, on the other you say it doesn't matter because of the beauty you feel from Knowledge. If there are factual errors I will be happy to correct them. Please write to me. Many thanks, John Brauns EPO webmaster

Subject: Re: The Beauty I felt, and EPO From: R2 To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:40:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The beauty I felt and feel, and the beauty you feel, has nothing to do with Prempal Rawat, and it is his insistence that it does that shows that he lacks integrity. What you experience is the result of your own effort and sincerity, nothing else. No magic grace, no special teaching from Maharaji, just you and your own effort. Okay John. You are half right. My effort and sincerity are key. But hey, you have no reference point for what I experience so how can you comment. As a matter of fact for you to be so presumptuous think you know is rather telling. But listen, it’s like this. I’m thirsty. Don’t have a clue which way to go to find water. Someone on a hilltop shouts out the direction to the well. I head out. Get lost. I look up again and they shout out the directions again. I continue on. Get lost again. Get directions again. This goes on for hours. Finally, with the help of the direction from the man on the hill I find the well and quench my thirst. Did it take effort? You bet. Did it take direction? Hey, my effort could well have been in vain without it. Make sense? As for the 14 objections on the website you so proudly speak of, I’m not in a position to comment on the veracity of the “facts”. I can comment on the spin that the whole site is laced with though. The “facts” are paraded about in such a negative light that it stops representing truth. So are you telling me there is no editorial flavor injected into EPO?

Subject: What an ill-thought criticism! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:52:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for the 14 objections on the website you so proudly speak of, I’m not in a position to comment on the veracity of the “facts”. I can comment on the spin that the whole site is laced with though. The “facts” are paraded about in such a negative light that it stops representing truth. So are you telling me there is no editorial flavor injected into EPO? Until you know if the facts are true you can't possobly be able to judge how much unfair spin's been put on them. (For the record, by the way, I'd say none.) So don't hide behind ignorance. Find out.

Subject: Okay R2 From: Joe To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:22:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for the 14 objections on the website you so proudly speak of, I’m not in a position to comment on the veracity of the “facts”. I can comment on the spin that the whole site is laced with though. The “facts” are paraded about in such a negative light that it stops representing truth. So are you telling me there is no editorial flavor injected into EPO? Well, I think you are in every position possible to comment on the 'facts' and if not, I would think you would try to find out if what is said on EPO is true or not. Can you ask Maharaji about that? I didn't think so. But tell me, if you think the 'facts' are presented in a 'negative light' perhaps you can tell us, specifically, how they should be presented, besides first-hand observation that is, which is what is on EPO. Or why don't you entertain us with your rendition of a 'positive light' presentation of the facts on EPO. I would love to hear it.

Subject: Oh come on From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:34:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, John, but I have to ask you too: what do you mean by the 'beauty you feel from Knowledge'. We were told that that was nothing less than the direct experience of God inside. So you still do the meditation. Fine. But is that what you think you're experiencing? Or are you thinking that Maharaji was a fraud, the techniques don't reveal God inside but, coincidentally, they just happen to show a lot of beauty? What could we call that then? The beauty of not experiencing God 'face-to-face'? :) Just curious.

Subject: It's simple, Jim From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:44:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard has had an experience that he values. He erroneously thinks Maharaji has something to do with him having that experience. I'm trying to correct this. Is the experience, and experience of God? I think that's very unlikely, and unless someone comes up with some solid evidence, I choose to believe it's something that happens in the brain when the right conditions occur. I didn't bother telling Richard that just now, as I didn't want to overload his one brain cell that's still allowed to function. Anyway, I didn't say I still meditate, and in fact I don't, but I certainly enjoy the beauty and wonder of life, especially living here in the middle of the Latvian countryside. John.

Subject: I've never understood that argument From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:53:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So what you're basically saying is that yes, Maharaji might be a fraud but, don't worry, the 'gift' he gave you is the real thing. Sorry, John, that just seems like really, really fishy to me.

Subject: Did you read wot I rote? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:28:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I said I believed the pleasurable experience in meditation was down to brain chemistry. I'll continue to believe that until I am presented with evidence that it's something more. Now how did you turn that into:- Maharaji might be a fraud but, don't worry, the 'gift' he gave you is the real thing. I think a visit to the opticians for a an eyetest might be in order. I found I needed reading glasses about three years ago. A reminder that my body is deteriorating. John.

Subject: Apparently not! From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:57:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, John. I missed that line which did indeed put the post in a different perspective. My mistake.

Subject: You're not trying hard enough Jim From: Patrick W To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:30:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For fucks sake Jim. Do us a favour and just go and meditate and then come back and tell us what you think. There is NOTHING fishy about what John said. You are putting words into his mouth by saying: you're basically saying is that yes, Maharaji might be a fraud but, don't worry, the 'gift' he gave you is the real thing. Of course that's not what he's saying. Look, the gist is that Maharaji uses the meditation - which Da Da! really does work - as the bait to get you to believe all kinds of other crap. Apparently he doen't even practice what he preaches! JHB isn't admitting that this is M's great gift or anything remotely like that. Get with the programme Jim - Go and meditate and then come back and tell me if you think it's Maharaji's gift. Of course not! But you might enjoy your meditation anyway. Give it a try.. for me!

Subject: Re: I've never understood that argument From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:34:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I think that you have to allow people to take one step at a time. The existence of EPO is there primarily to warn people and expose M as a spoiled egocentric megalomaniac who has shown no care or responsibility for those people whose lives have been screwed up by following his direction/advice, not simply by meditating. Certainly a strong case can be made against his brand of knowledge for the simple reason that the teacher himself is so screwed up and unscrupulous. However debunking meditation experience is best left as a secondary goal and not the most important matter at hand here. I think that there are positive and beneficial experiences to be had through meditation but that ascribing any divine absolute attributes is magical conjecture.

Subject: Magical Conjecture From: gerry To: Pullaver Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:30:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You guys are making life tough for me. I was enjoying latte and a smoke with a friend who is a massage therapist. She said what was so wonderful for her in her work was that she got to experience the 'presence of gawd' when she worked on some one and wasn't that just divine. Under some gentle probing (she probably read my body language, though) I discovered she meant the feeling of love and connection she felt when giving someone a massage. Bliss, for lack of a better word. Bringing the gawd into such a very human, albeit wonderful experience dampens the mood for me. I just detest it now when someone says something like that. It seems to so cheapen the human experience by attributing it to some pie-in-the-sky gawd. Last night I had the opportuninity to tutor a little guy in science (now, no snickers from the peanut gallery--he's in fourth grade, I think I can handle that) and at a moment when his lights went on over a particular point, I felt a little, well, you know, elated myself. That weren't the goober's grace or the gawd shining down his little drops of mercy. It was just two people doin' what humans have been doin' for eons--being human. It seems as soon is you bring the gawd into the picture, trouble starts. I say fuck the gawd. If it exists, it's a rotten bastard anyway and I never want to be in it's 'presence.'

Subject: Son, you just gotta believe in sumfin' From: Kilgore Trout To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 11:19:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it keeps the juices flowing and by the time things start getting 'fishy' as you say, you can just move on to believing in something else. That's why all these cult members got something going on the side. You know, Tarot cards, yoga, alcohol whatever!

Subject: How dare you post as Kilgore Trout? From: Cynthia To: Kilgore Trout Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:02:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He is the creation of a great American writer, Kurt Vonnegut. And Kilgore Trout doesn't use words like 'sumfin' either.

Subject: Genesis of Kilgore Trout From: Theodore Sturgeon To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 19:33:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The literary character, Kilgore Trout is said to be inspired by Theodore Sturgeon, a 'famous' sci-fi writer. The parallels are his style of writing and the obvious last name link. Both fish. Kurt Vonnegut admitted this in his interview with Hank Nuwer in 1987. Kurt Vonnegut answers the question with: 'Yeah. In fact, it said so in his obituary in the [New York] Times... Sturgeon got a nice big obituary in the Times.... I was delighted that it said in the middle of it that he was the inspiration for the Kurt Vonnegut character of Kilgore Trout.' :o :o :o

Subject: Re: Genesis of Kilgore Trout From: Cynthia To: Theodore Sturgeon Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 07:55:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cool info about Vonnegut. Kilgore Trout is his alter-ego (or so he has says). Don't know about any resemblance to to the author Sturgeon. Pretty funny. I like the tongue in cheeky way Kurt Vonnegut says: 'Yeah. In fact, it said so in his obituary in the [New York] Times... Thanks, I'll look up that interview.:)

Subject: The Master From: Pullaver To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:59:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah yes, a Master is a Master is a Master. A Master cannot be judged by worldly concepts such as ethical standards. A Master could act like a Hitler or Bin Laden or Stalin and as long as he has the grace to reveal the keys to the inner kingdom that is all that matters to a true student of the mysteries of life. Leaving aside any argument concerning whether Masters are myth and whether there is an inner kingdom, let's assume your perspective concerning the beautiful experience within and Maharaji's role in revealing and inspiring you to continue to go inside. Do you believe it is only by his grace that you have that experience? Do you think that you could continue to have that experience if you left Maharaji out of the equation? Do you think that you are capable of appreciating that gift without his on-going commentary? To paraphrase Maharaji, you don't have to answer me - answer to yourself. I remember a satsang that Maharaji gave some time ago and the gist of it was how these video games get so complex with so many layers and hidden devices that you need a separate guidebook to figure it all out. We create so much complexity that the simple enjoyment of the game gets lost. And of course the Master comes and shows you this one thing and you understand what is truly important. Well, guess what? Maharaji came over here and he said let them sing Arti, let them live in ashrams, let them be celibate, let them give me all their money, let them forego careers and family, let them build me a plane and forget about all else, let them give me cars, a yacht, a jet, residences and let me have my affairs, my daily drink, and let Jagdeo rape little children. So much complexity Maharaji created so that by his grace you could realize the simple thing of enjoying the sweet inner experience that only a true master can teach a student. As Maharaji said: 'The pillar is holding the roof, but what is holding the pillar?'

Subject: And the dog's of the couple in SF From: Susan To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:50:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whose attack dogs mauled a woman to death probably wouldn't care if their 'masters' were bad people either. My dog doesn't seem to give a shit about my morality either. No offnse to Deputy Dog's moniker intended.

Subject: What the fuck is a Non-Student? From: Cynthia To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:06:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To R2: Ya know, we don't need anymore of your mindfucking here at Forum 7. What the hell is a Non-Student? Who calls someone a ''Non-Student,'' but a cult-speaking, unsnapped, son-of-a-bitch, who just wants to try to fuck someone's mind up with more of the same old propaganda and cult programming that got me, the other exes here, and Deputy Dog, who just announced he's had enough of the fucking LIVE IN A BODY LORD! So just go away. Don't be an asshole. Do yourself a favor, don't be a complete asshole and try to post here thinking you are going to do a mind fuck on anyone here. Don't insult our intelligence and sensibilities, please! Just go away... Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: My favorite part From: Jim To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:55:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gollum, Here's my favorite part. It comes up all the time in premie arguments and it's just plain daft: Does this kind of stuff matter to non-students? Of course not. Most people don’t believe such things are even possible, so they don’t value it. Instead they come up with other icons to revere: country, community, family –- you know the story. Yeah, that's right. Most people get up in the morning and sing arti to their country, their community, their family. Most people walk around thinking that the purpose of their life is to surrender the reigns of their life to mum, sis or junior or maybe even the mayor. Anyway, it just kills me how premies do this. They're so broken down they think that they've got to be servile to someone. If not this cult leader, then someone and that person, or thing, or whatever, well, it's no better than a cult leader either. So why switch? is what they think. What a joke!

Subject: Re: My favorite part From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 21:04:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't got up and sang Arti for at least 20 years and still hold the knowledge of truth and reality in high regard. As for worshiping worldly things? You don't have to sing a devotional song to be devoted. What are you devoted to? Jim Heller?

Subject: You just proved my point! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 21:25:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't got up and sang Arti for at least 20 years and still hold the knowledge of truth and reality in high regard. As for worshiping worldly things? You don't have to sing a devotional song to be devoted. What are you devoted to? Jim Heller? --- I can assure you that I'm not devoted to anything. Not in the sense your cult and its leader uses the word: AND now I'll tell you of devotion. Devotion is a two-way ticket. But with this two-way ticket, you don't go there to Mukti (Liberation). You don't go to that place. You don't go to liberation, but you stay here and this is devotion. Every benefit that you were supposed to have in liberation, you will get. That means being away from Karma, away from actions and always in the bliss, and the radiance of the Lord. That place will be given to you while you are on the earth with the Lord; with the human form, with the physical presence of the Lord. That is called devotion. As long as the devotee is there, the Lord can project devotion out of him. Understood ? You know, if there is no devotee, how can there be devotion ? Can there be devotion without devotee ? How can there be ? There can't. So, if there is devotion, there has to be devotee. Have you understood now ? And if there has to be devotee, he has to be in a physical form. A devotee has to devote something. Have you understood now ? To devote something, he has to be in a physical form. And where is it possible for him to be in physical form ? On the earth. And with whom can he be in the physical form ? With the Lord, who is in His physical form ! He has to be with the Physical Lord who has come into this physical world with a Physical Body. Understood. (Guru Maharaj Ji - Essen, Germany - August 31, 1975) The tip of the iceberg www.ex-premie.org/papers/mastergod.htm

Subject: Why you cagey little so-and-so you From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:19:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sure lead me into a corner there Jimbo, with your staggering intelligence and clear insight. Whew! Say, what ARE you devoted to Jimbo -- forgive me, are we close enough that I can call you that? I mean 'not in the sense [my] cult and its leader uses the word'. I mean, you seem to be devoted to bringing Maharaji down. Or is devotion too strong a word coming from the comfort of the computer chair in your bedroom?

Subject: Re: consider From: silvia To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:51:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where all those 'beautiful' IDEAS come from. All your 'great' beliefes were inculcated by your master, you ()) dog. Where is your freedom? Believeing you need to be devoted to something? What about being devoted (dedicated) to just being a human being, a real one? I don't know ANY premie that is a real person. Most are frozen in their own insecurities and are people very tedious to be with. They are GONE somewhere...left behind by the 'captain' who is laughing all the way to whatever he is going. Helicopter, plane, yates, never bored. You, any PREMIE? Dreaming in la-la land. Dreaming in how special they are...BUT, are they? Common. you can reason. Maharaji is an imaginary friend, a friend in your head, that is all you have. Ideas, but all what you trust to be THE truth is no truth, even if you have learned to believe that it's. As you, I came as a premie to read and guess what? You wont find more truth on gurus than here. The truth, when good reasoning is applied, it is obvious. Maharaji took us all for a ride. The fact that maharaji doesn't use the word devotion should be a warning for you, if you consider Maharaji's words Jim included in his post to you. Grow up. Maharaji has, and possible will,change the stories to fit only one thing: His pockets. The bussiness must continue and that you think you know maharaji...get lost. You don't know him or his real motives. Stick around and your viws will change. You know only the image you have created in your head and that is not the real maharaji.

Subject: Re: consider From: R2 To: silvia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:12:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where all those 'beautiful' IDEAS come from. All your 'great' beliefes were inculcated by your master, you ()) dog. Where is your freedom? Believeing you need to be devoted to something? What about being devoted (dedicated) to just being a human being, a real one? I don't know ANY premie that is a real person. Most are frozen in their own insecurities and are people very tedious to be with. They are GONE somewhere...left behind by the 'captain' who is laughing all the way to whatever he is going. Helicopter, plane, yates, never bored. You, any PREMIE? Dreaming in la-la land. Dreaming in how special they are...BUT, are they? Common. you can reason. Maharaji is an imaginary friend, a friend in your head, that is all you have. Ideas, but all what you trust to be THE truth is no truth, even if you have learned to believe that it's. As you, I came as a premie to read and guess what? You wont find more truth on gurus than here. The truth, when good reasoning is applied, it is obvious. Maharaji took us all for a ride. The fact that maharaji doesn't use the word devotion should be a warning for you, if you consider Maharaji's words Jim included in his post to you. Grow up. Maharaji has, and possible will,change the stories to fit only one thing: His pockets. The bussiness must continue and that you think you know maharaji...get lost. You don't know him or his real motives. Stick around and your viws will change. You know only the image you have created in your head and that is not the real maharaji. --- Okay, so what you see in your head is real, is it? How is it that NOW you are sure about that, when at one time you were also sure?

Subject: Re: consider From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:55:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, I think that little phrase 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' made sure we all ignored the niggling doubts most of us had. After all, if he was the Lord and he was forbidding us in no uncertain terms to doubt, where did that leave our healthy discrimination? Up a gum tree, that's where... Think about it. Regards, Livia

Subject: Re: consider From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:27:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Leave no room for doubt' meant address your doubts ASAP, not avoid them in the hopes they will go away. I was not someone who ignored my doubts. I addressed them as quickly as I could. And I still do. Many ex-premie missed that fine point.

Subject: That's completely wrong From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:35:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Leave no room for doubt' meant address your doubts ASAP, not avoid them in the hopes they will go away. I was not someone who ignored my doubts. I addressed them as quickly as I could. And I still do. Many ex-premie missed that fine point. --- What a crock, R2. 'Leave no room for doubt' meant just what it says: keep yourself so busy in service, satsang and meditation that there simply won't be any room for doubts to fester. Not only does that happen to be the truth, it's also the only reasonable interpretation of that commandment. If anything, I'd say you've missed the 'fine point' of telling the truth.

Subject: point From: I think this was the Captain's To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:00:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AND now I'll tell you of devotion. Devotion is a two-way ticket. But with this two-way ticket, you get to be shit upon. And I get to do it! As long as the devotee is there, the Lord can project devotion squeeze another nickel out of him Understood ? You know, if there is no devotee, how can there be a nickel? Can there be Gulfstreams without devotee ? How can there be ? There can't. So, if there is devotion, there has to be devotee. Have you understood now ? And if there has to be devotee, he has to be in a physical form. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip ( or any other rotting vegetable) A devotee has to devote something. Have you understood now ? To devote something, he has to be in a physical form. And where is it possible for him to be in physical form ? On the earth. And with whom can he be in the physical form ? With the Lord, who is in His physical form ! He has to be with the Physical Lord who has come into this physical world with a Physical Body. Understood. If you give your nickels dimes and dollars to a Lord without a physical form someone might waste them doing charitable works the world instead giving them to one of the greediest men who ever lived.

Subject: Re: devotion From: Tcheuki To: I think this was the Captain's Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 07:12:19 (EST) Email Address: narotang@hotmail.com Message: One tibetan master has said : Devotion is equal to understanding. And according to Buddhist philosophy ( yes , that precise word M. hates) what is to be understood? Vacuity. The master does'nt exist and the student does'nt exist. They are both creation of your own mind who does not exist either. But there is a way to practice and to express that vacuity. And it is compassion. So you have to respect your companions. Because nothing is to be understood but it's a long way to understand that (for most of us ) A good student should avoid the masters too implicated in the pursuit of money an comfort.

Subject: just a question of wait and see From: Coach To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:22:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi folks, Can anyone break the code to discover what this REALLY means? Coach --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- south west email: march 2002 Dear All, During this time of 'quietening down', local propagation still needs to continue, as John indicated in the recent conference call. What part the Area team may play in this is still open. Some functions are clear and have been strengthened, such as the finance contact. For others it's just a question of wait and see. However, it has been suggested that we might use this time to get to know each other('Group sex, anyone?' - Coach) so that we can be prepared to act should the need arise. We are planning to have an open meeting from 1pm - 5pm, in Exeter on Sunday, March 10th. The meeting will look at what is happening in the localities with regard to propagation, and what support the Area team can give. We will also look at preparing for a possible event with Maharaji in the SW Area, Area finances, Knowledge sessions, archive materials, and any other topics that people would like to raise. The address is: BHTS Training and Consultancy, Coombe St, Exeter. There is limited parking available there, but other car parks not far away. There is a facility for tea/coffee, and there will be a break during the afternoon. It would be helpful to know if you are planning to attend, so that we can estimate numbers.('like get out the crowd barriers, man -Coach') Hope to see you there,('Yeah, right.' - Coach) Ann Harris --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Powered by List Builder Click here to change or remove your subscription

Subject: Only one sentence matters From: Marianne To: Coach Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:26:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Some functions are clear and have been strengthened, such as the finance contact.' Says it all, doesn't it? Keep that money machine rolling.

Subject: Very true, and OT From: Joe To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:40:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kind of interesting that premies might be socializing on an official basis. I don't hink that has happened recently. Funny, Marianne, but right after I spoke with you on Friday, I ran into both KB and Mr. Connolly in the Montgomery St. Station. I told Kimiko that Marianne said I should vote for her. She thought that was funny, and so did Connolly. Don't forget to vote yes on Prop. A. It does look like, once again, the Republicans are going to self-destruct and nominate an anti-choice, anti-gun-control, right-wing gazillionaire with no government experience who can't possibily win and so Gray Davis that stomp the crap out of him. They seem to never learn. Sometimes even I thought Riordan was better than Davis. Actually I think he is, but he is way too liberal for the CA Republican party; at least the ones who vote. :) Joe We have a big election in California tomorrow, if anybody cares. Lord knows not many voters seem to. :)

Subject: Re: Very true, and OT From: Marianne To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:22:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you ran into them. They are good folks and deserve to win. I had the same reaction about Riordan. I'm sick of Gray Davis. Of course I will vote yes on A and also for Britt. That's a tight race. Talk to you soon. Marianne

Subject: Re: Very true - OT From: Joe To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:04:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmmm. I'm a little worried about the SF Elections Department. I am registered Green, but this morning, I was given a Democratic ballot, which was fine, because I wanted to vote for Harry Britt. But it does make you wonder. I hope the ballots don't end up in the bay. :) SF is so great because it's small enough that you get to meet all the local candidates, at least they seem to congregate at the Montgomery and Castro transit stations. Several were at Castro Street last night.

Subject: Maharaji at Ashram meeting, Rome 1980 From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 17:34:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just listened to a recording of Maharaji speaking to the ashram premies in Rome 1980, kindly provided by one of the Latvian moles in my garden, and although I haven't had time to do any sort of verbatim transcript, here are a few choice extracts. Near the start he talks about how life without Knowledge is meaningless and purposeless. He later talks about what a premie is, which is someone who has handed over the reins of his life to Guru Maharaj Ji. He tells us that Guru Maharaj Ji takes a human form so that we can relate. Salvation and devotion are thrown in as desirables. He tells us that soon the ashrams will become 'what they're supposed to be'. I guess that means closed down, as that's what he did a few years later. He was definitely excited about the possibility of doing public programs, and recognised the difficulty of trying to promote knowledge with all these Indian concepts. He omitted to mention that the Indian concepts weren't his fault. He talked about how aspirants need to be looked after. This is one area he certainly developed. He talked about how to do propagation. I guess it didn't sink in, as he's still trying to tell premies how to do it. He seems to have changed his approach though, as in 1980 he told his devotees who wanted to propagate to 'obey Guru Maharaj Ji's agya'. He also advised the ashram premies to 'stop listening to their minds'. There's lots more, but I just wanted to share these titbits with you. I'm copying the mp3 files to one of the sites so anyone who's mad enough to want to listen can do so. The quality isn't great, but, by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, his voice and words still shine through. John.

Subject: MP3 files now on EPO2 From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 08:28:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The recording of Maharaji speaking to the Ashram premies in Rome 1980 is now on line as nine 3.5mb files. Each one is a 5 minute segment. As I said, the quality's not great, but you can make out what he's saying. To download, right click, and select 'save link as..'. I don't intend doing anything else with these for the time being, as I have too much else to do. If someone wants to transcribe all of it, or even just the juicy bits, I would be happy to put the text on EPO. John. MP3 files www.ex-premie2.org/download/

Subject: Great, John From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:59:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good report, important stuff, glad you're putting it on EPO. Thanks again.

Subject: ELK breaks new ground From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:30:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the 'Expressions' section of ELK there's finally something akin to a conversation between two people. Honestly. To start: Bored with life Hey there is no enjoying in my life. I am alone and feeling bored. Please tell me how can I enjoy my life. How is it possible ....????? Saify Syed Karachi, Pakistan ...followed up by a little ol' fashioned premie maintenance: To Saify Dear Saify Syed Learn to listen to your heart, be with your heart and this life will feel like a magical gift. By listening to Maharaji, he will, can, help you find your heart, feel it, be with it. Sincerely request his help. When you find your heart you will be full of joy and very thankful, glad and excited to be alive. You can also receive Knowledge and feel more joy inside, bliss :). Good luck, Best, Janice Wilson Janice Wilson Baldwinsville, NY, USA Gotta go ....... :)

Subject: How can Saify ask M for help? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 13:17:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janice suggests that Saify should ask Maharaji for help. How can he do this? He lives in Pakistan which I don't recall is on Maharaji's usual itinerary. he could write a letter or an email, but Maharaji is not so good at replying, so how would any help be given. Of course, it could be that Janice means Saify should pray to Maharaji, but it that a politically correct concept for ELK? Amyway, what's happened to the forum, have we all moved on? John.

Subject: Does that mean pray to Maharaji? From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:50:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim and John, My thoughts were that poor Saify was told to pray to m. Wink, wink. I noticed that the messages aren't up to 700 as usual. Was I posting that much? I guess with my posts, plus the trolls that were giving me grief, I guess others are working, posting elsewhere:) or it's just a pre-spring lull. Cynthia

Subject: 'Passages Video' From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:06:38 (EST) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: The forum seems quiet right now so I'll post some general observations from watching the M/EV revisionist propoganda video 'Passages - A Master's Journey'. Some of these comments are excerpted from an e-mail I sent to Richard, so Richard if you are reading this you can skip this one. Last Saturday night ChrisP and Deputy Dog came over to my house to drink a few ale, commiserate and watch the 'Passages Video'. Dep Dog became drunk and unruly and began spouting zen koans, new age platitudes and obscure biblical passages and had to be physically restrained by ChrisP who performed an exorcism on him, at least I think that's what it was. Sorry, no photos were taken to protect the guilty by association. Watching the 'Passages' propaganda reel with my critical faculties fully intact, instead of the old fawning, unquestioning, devotee labotomy was perhaps the best part. My general view of the various 'witnesses' to the Master's journey is simply that they are (for the most part) sincere but deluded, and also that they are very much protective and enamored of their own seminal role regarding discovering Maharaji and within the mission. It was also possible to look upon Maharaji as a very good actor, acting in his best interests. I also noted that an instrumental version of Arti was playing towards the end of the video - the ultimate premie subliminal and both very ironic (considering the vehement disclaimers regarding his deification) and absolutely intentional - subtly suggesting/reinforcing that he is you know who after all. Originally, I have no doubt that Maharaji came to the west convinced of his messianic role as supported by a not-so-divine comedy of errors - the post-war baby-boom peace and love generation comprised of thousands of acid experienced, guru-seeking, be-here-now wannabe zensters and the anti-war political activist types. Bolstered by a charismatic presence: a precocious child prodigy with utter confidence and well-versed in a hindu dog and pony show handed down from his father and indeed the cultural milieu in which he was raised. He came with techniques of meditation that to me at least, seemed to have the potential to reveal whatever it was I was glimpsing on acid. Of course I didn't know at the time that the name of this vedanta vaudeville act was 'devotion'. And of course I didn't know that this 'perfect master' was going to give me all kinds of ignorant and useless advice. Nor did I know that he really didn't care about the repercussions of his ignorant and useless advice to me. I didn't know that he was a rampant materialist at heart who loved his daily dosage of cognac and pot; could care less about a pedophile instructor; would take sexual advantage; could be abusive and demeaning, etc., etc., etc. The real passage is in my own life. Leaving behind the spoiled little boy who would be God. Life goes on within and without him.

Subject: Well said Pull! [nt] From: Dep =) To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:02:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: 'Passages Video' From: michael donner To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 18:52:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well said pullaver! hitting the nail on the head.

Subject: Re: 'Passages Video' From: Deputy Dog =) To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 16:02:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't seen Pullaver for a while and was quite surprised at how much weight he had gained. For a split second I thought he was with child. The video was pretty harmless IMO. If people want to have M as their master and do an hour a day of meditation, so be it. It no longer feels right for me though. Trungpa calls that whole devotional trip 'spiritual materialsm.' It never turned me on. Maybe I was lucky. BTW four cans of Guinness do not a drunken Deputy Dog make. But I was unruly and am still a little sad at having cut the cord.

Subject: Waiting for the penny to drop From: Jim To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:18:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very funny about Pull expecting. But Dog, I wonder ... if you're now willing to admit that M was a fraud and all that, when will you get around to acknolwedging the harm he's done and continues to do? Or is that something you intend to avoid? And how's all this playing in the Dog House where, as we know, Mrs. Dog is still a premie and one of your puppies is too? Are we ex-ing in the closet, perhaps? Tough one, Dog, if you are. Don't mean to suggest it isn't. But what's happening in that respect anyway, if you don't mind my asking? Did Mrs. Dog know that you were going to your first ever SECRET EX-PREMIE MEETING? :)

Subject: To Deputy Dog... From: Cynthia To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 16:19:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, Congratulations on releasing your bonds. As Francesca said below, cutting the cord will not be as painful as time goes by. It will dry up and be gone. Give yourself some time and don't let that Jim character bully you around this joint. (I'm sure to catch some flak on that one)! Just be good to yourself, you deserve it, Deputy Dog. Always liked that handle... Best, Cynthia

Subject: No, cynth, you're absolutely right From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:11:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I did was bully Dep for the past couple of years. If only I and people like me hadn't given him such unfair treatement, I'm sure he would have renounced Maharaji years ago. All we did -- sorry, all I did, was slow things down. Now, though, it's incredible. Dog is fully, clearly a thousand per cent away out of the cult and it matters not how innocuous he finds it. The point is, he says he's an ex and that's it. Francesca, if you're reading this, may I suggest that you take a hint from Cynthia's warning (about me but could be about anyone, I imagine, who also wants to bully Dog)? Dog is an ex now. Therefore, if he thinks the Passages video's okay, it's okay. If he thinks being a premie's okay, it's okay. Leave him alone. M'kay? Sheesh!

Subject: A Tribute to Laurie... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 21:55:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laurie, I don't know you. I've seen a photo of you. You are one strong, fucking hell of a woman. How do you live with this man, this man named Jim Heller? Warm wishes Cynthia Gracie

Subject: Maalox, cast iron pans, and banishment From: Laurie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:05:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia. Really, living with Jim is pretty easy if you stock up on Maalox, keep a cast iron pan filled with hot oil, and engage in liberal bed banishment policies. I took up the bed banishment policies after seeing how well the forum banishments worked and made Jim behave. Thanks for your support. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. Love, Laurie (Marianne) --- -- PS. Yes, Dog's an ex. A very recent ex. He should wait a year and then take another look at the Passages video. Give him some time. If the Dog doesn't behave, we can resume throwing loads of crap at him. Right, Jim? Jim, you know I tease you because I love you and know you can take it. M

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: Laurie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:29:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lots of Laughs...Hi! N/T From: Cynthia To: Laurie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 22:08:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That was good Jim...LOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:48:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dear Dog: video NOT harmless From: Francesca To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 16:13:10 (EST) Email Address: notinherent@yahoo.com Message: Dear Dog, That video is NOT harmless to folks that are fooling themselves, or grabbing at straws, trying to justify being in a cult. Methinks you are still too close to it. However, many have been sad over leaving. Luckily for me I was not the least bit sad. I'd shed all my tears along with their accompanying suicidal thoughts, in the ashram. By the time I left, it was not a decision that I made. It was a fact. The smell of freedom Dog! That umbilicus will dry up and blow away. Best wishes and be kind to yourself! Francesca

Subject: Re: Dear Dog: video NOT harmless From: Dep =) To: Francesca Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:16:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dog, That video is NOT harmless to folks that are fooling themselves, or grabbing at straws, trying to justify being in a cult. Methinks you are still too close to it. However, many have been sad over leaving. Luckily for me I was not the least bit sad. I'd shed all my tears along with their accompanying suicidal thoughts, in the ashram. By the time I left, it was not a decision that I made. It was a fact. The smell of freedom Dog! That umbilicus will dry up and blow away. Best wishes and be kind to yourself! Francesca --- Francesca, By harmless I guess I meant that videos such a this no longer affect me. I didn't go with the weepy stories, wasn't moved at all. Thought it was rather ordinary really. IMO this means I'm far away from it, free. I started here as a Maharaji apologist and as the months went by felt my attachments fading. My leaving was not the result of a great realization but a last straw. Sorry to hear about your tears in the ashram. Too bad you didn't have a place like this to come to. Oh well. Some say that suffering is grace. Next time you are sad, look at your sadness as though you were looking the devil in the eye, and say, 'Come on sadness, bring it on, do your trip, because you are just a sadness and here I am.' Works for me. Thanks for your post. Dep

Subject: Addendum From: Pullaver To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 14:26:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course the outright revisionist bits concerning the sari brigade; people ending their association with m&k because Maharaji took 'religion' out of the equation by closing the ashrams, etc., can only be interpreted as deluded or complicit fabrications. A majority slice of the premie population then, is being blamed for wanting spiritual accoutrements instead of the 'real thing'. Of course no mention is given about people feeling used and abused by Maharaji. Basically, this can be taken as seriously as the M progaganda decrying his messianic role while at the same time including an instrumental version of Arti on the soundtrack.

Subject: Re: 'Passages Video' From: ChrisP To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:47:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, Pull ol' pal, - great summation. I've just got 2 comments to add to that: One's actually in the Deputy's defence: I wouldn't call him ‘drunk' - I don't think he had any more of the good ol' Irish water-of-life than you. Plus ‘physically restraining him with an exorcism' - ha! hardly! ‘n a hardy har har! ()) 2nd comment to add: We also noted that Mata Ji had a good point in not wanting him to quit school and run off to the West at only 13 years of age. Maybe if he had stayed and completed his education, he might have had a more informed and intelligent speaking ability, if not at least learned a few manners or discipline from his school ‘masters'! Cheers, Crispy

Subject: Speaking of videos........... From: Dr. Poopyganda To: ChrisP Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:29:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WARNING: novision int. is letting loose with a huge dump. A dumping of old videos , yours for 4.00 each. It seems they can't give them away. Actually, in laborotory tests in dark rooms A.K.A. premie video places, hundreds of people have been successfully cured of insomnia thanks to the mindless ,pointless meandering drivel uttered by the former perfect master, Satguru, now just Master maharaji.Instead of unisom ,warm milk, or L-tryptophan pop in a maharaji video and you will sleep like a baby. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...........

Subject: Steve's Journey; New White Pages Entry From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 09:12:03 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Steve Quint's journey entry now on line, as is David Deal's White Pages entry. Steve, I'm looking forward to the rest of your story! John.

Subject: Conversation with the Master From: The gardener-at the rez To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:47:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following conversation was heard between the master and a high level PAM, who also does some gardening at the rez.... PAM: Maharaji,I'm just not going to be able to do that work around the yard today. I'm sore all over, I feel like a have a slight fever, throats a little sore, maybe I'm coming down with something...I just don't feel right, you know? M:Hey that's no excuse! Why, when I'm feeling that way, I just tell my wife I need a whole lot of sex, and it goes away, just like that! PAM: Pranam, Maharaji. Two hours later the PAM calls up Maharaji and tells him he is busy working hard in the garden now and feeling much better. Maharaji says great. 'Yeah, everythings feeling fine. Thanks. And by the way,Maharaji, that's a really great water bed you've got in the bedroom.'

Subject: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Victor (Bob) To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:19:30 (EST) Email Address: marcelproust@earthlink.net Message: I wanted to share with you all this kinda country lyric that popped out of me this morning as I was considering how not difficult it was to walk away. 'Easier Than I Thought' WHEN I RIPPED APART YOUR PICTURE I FELT GUILTY AT FIRST THEN I RIPPED APART THE ONES YOU TOOK 'O ME I JOGGED AROUND THE RESERVOIR 'N STOPPED TO PET A DOG TRAIPSED HOME 'N HAD A COZY CUP 'O PEPPERMINT TEA IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE THEN I WENT 'N DID SOME 'THINKIN WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT? I WAS CERTAIN FROM THE GET-GO YOU WERE 'IT' WE FIT SO WELL TOGETHER YOU'D HAVE THOUGHT US TWO WERE ONE BUT THIS HALF SAYS WHEN TIME IS UP YOU UP 'N YOU 'GIT' IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE I THOUGHT IT NEVER WOULD END GOES TO SHOW WHAT A LOVESICK HEART CAN HEAR 'LISTIN TO WHISPERS IN MY EAR ALL THE WHILE MY HEAD IS IN MY REAR THANK THE LORD OR EVEN CUPID EVEN I AM NOT THAT STUPID HERE'S TO 'STANDIN TALL 'N DO ME A FLAVOR - DON'T CALL! I'LL BE BUSY 'TAKIN DANCE CLASS SORTA AFRO-BRAZIL 'N I PLANTED MYSELF THIS PRETTY WEEPING WILLOW TREE I'LL WATER IT WITH ALL THE TEARS I SAVED BY LEAVING YOU AND WHO ALL GIVES A HOOT ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK 'O ME IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE WHAT TEARS? IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE Eee ha! New Link

Subject: You could call it 'Father, Where Art Thou?' From: Pullaver To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 16:59:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Howdy partner. Nice shootin' but thought I should let you know that no self-respecting cowboy drinks peppermint tea.|D

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Marshall To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 13:47:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Victor/Bob, I really dug those lyrics man. Did you write them on the spot? Like you said? The words just kind of 'popped out' Did you mean popped out of your memory? Is it an old country tune? If you wrote that, then it might be time to head to Nashville... or at least Branson Missouri. No really, that was great, Thanx

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Ulf To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 12:52:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Bo Here is another one , that come to my mind ,,,, reading yours ,,, A song i had in my ears, many times when i first was leaving M I hate that foolish game we played and the need that was expressed. And the mercy that you showed to me , who ever would have guessed? I went out on lower Broadway and i felt that place within, That hollow place where martyrs weep and angels play with sin. Heard your songs of freedom and man forever stripped, acting out his folly while his back is being whipped Like a slave in orbit , he is beaten `til he is tame, All for a moment`s glory and it`s a dirty rotten shame... Dylan ( dirge )

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Victor (Bob) To: Ulf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 17:58:58 (EST) Email Address: marcelproust@earthlink.net Message: A couple of replies - to Pullaver - I would be glad to replace peppermint tea in the lyric with another 4 syllable word or words. Or a 3 syllable name for a tea that's less Little Miss Muffinish. I'll work on it or take suggestions. (Just don't ask for credit or moola if I sell it to Reba McIntire.) Marshall - Yeah, it was the first thing popped out of me when I woke up this morning. Aside from some small edits, it came out complete as you read it in about 15 minutes. I love it when it happens like that. I usually write songs that are lyrically more witty and hifalutin in a New York Jewish Cole Porterish theater style. But I usually don't experience the emotions 'regular' folks experience who write songs about love lost or love gained or love in any form, as I haven't been in any relationships of that sort for years (family members and friends and pets for some reason don't inspire love songs the way a nitty gritty get down love affair does). But when I just superimposed the writing of a broader popular style lyric upon my as yet rather unexpressed feelings about Maharaji, there it was. It then reminded me of the way (we) premies back before the big Exit Sign beckoned used to sing anything popular on the radio and it often seemed to fit like a glove as a love song to our True Love GMJ. The oddest example I can remember (recently referred to in Forum 7) is 'If You Think I'm Sexy' which blared forth at Holi in Miami (what's odder is that I believed he WAS sexy - let's not go there), along with, if I remember correctly, 'We Are Family (I Got All My Sisters And Me).' Another that comes to mind went something like 'When I Need You - I Just Close My Eyes And I'm With You' etc. I could listen to Billy Joel's 'I Love You Just The Way You Are' and experience it as a direct expression from Maharaji to me, making me feel that even though I was a worthless worm who did countless depraved unmentionable acts when I was hiding out in my mind not to mention my body, he had infinite compassion and would still allow me to come back to satsang, do service and contribute what I could to the cause. Music and songs are an extremely powerful force (even the I Ching devotes an entire hexagram to that one, reminding us of the political and social power harnessed and controlled by strong leaders and used to move large populations and communities). The canny selection of material especially at large programs used to impress me so much because it was so artfully and craftily done, selected and timed to touch nerve endings that were exposed and raw, and suck us in, to a world of utter abandon. I sometimes couldn't tell the difference between the puppet and the puppeteer; I would be swept away in the harmonies and the meanings of the lyrics. Now that I am a step or two removed, I can more deeply comprehend the technique being utilized to wipe me out, a grand spectacle of operatic proportions, replete with hi tech tricks and precision modulated vibratory choreography. Now that I am writing songs again -- (having not wanted to succeed for so many years unless I knew it was coming from pure service to him which since it wasn't then could never truly manifest - I had firmly planted myself in a box of immobility) -- I find myself free to release feelings and more immediatley express what I want with no strings attached to the puppeteer. I am happy to have a muse (the creative flow) with nobody's signature attached to it. I trust more will come out of me, if only so that I will be able to express myself, let out the things that were sealed and undelivered to anyone's door. Finally, Ulf - thank you for the Dylan lyric. Reading that instantly reminds me what rough strong lyric writing can be. I sometimes wonder who writes the songs I want to hear, that ever can reflect an intelligence and a depth of experience and a charming way of putting it forth. If any of you would like to suggest a 'listening list' of songs for ex-premies that you find good quality, real and moving or just fun - do let me hear from you.

Subject: Damn good post, Victor. Many thanks From: PatC To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 19:12:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Now that I am writing songs again -- (having not wanted to succeed for so many years unless I knew it was coming from pure service to him which since it wasn't then could never truly manifest - I had firmly planted myself in a box of immobility) -- I find myself free to release feelings and more immediatley express what I want with no strings attached to the puppeteer.'' Many of us have said the same thing. I tried for many years to write a book which had been suggested to me by Rawat in a dream (yeah I know I was nuts) and it never worked. Now the dam has burst. I was just about to ask you by email how your song-writing was coming on. Now I see your name in lights over a Broadway marquee.

Subject: Broadway Marquees From: Victor Bob To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 11:33:24 (EST) Email Address: marcelproust@earthlink.net Message: I used to fantasize myself constantly as a famous premie in the mold of Tim Gallway, but instead of tennis balls I'd be pushing Broadway musicals. I would imagine meeting all kinds of famous powerful artistic people (while remaining shockingly humble) and slipping them into the front row at programs. It never seemed to work out that way. I once did a film score and went to the opening night screening. Who should be walking down a grande staircase but actress/model Marisa Berensen, who I had heard had received knowledge. I was so delighted to meet a premie at such a worldly event that I screamed out 'Jai Sat Chit Anand!' and she turned white as a ghost and quickly turned away. So much for show biz prachar and mingling with the high and mighty and spiritual. By the way, just wanted to clear something up re. the rumor discussed some weeks ago on Forum 7 that Roberta Flack had been a premie. Not! When I first started attending satsang in 1973, my best friend and fellow aspirant was Jonathan Hitchcok, a 7th Avenue fashion designer whose lover was Roberta's make-up man. I used to be at Jonathan's apartment all the time, discussing God and guru and of course Maharaji. She was horrified by the entire idea, and was not pleased with the way Jonathan was changing. So she put up the money to back his fledging business as a women's fashion designer and get him back into the world and away from these distractions. He became an overnight sensation at Saks and Bendels and quickly left Maharaji. So not to ramble - but Roberta no Guru Girl.

Subject: Hey Ulf From: gerry To: Ulf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 17:39:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What song is that quote from? I'm a big Dylan fan, have been ever since spinning his 45's as a twelve year old who took things far too seriously...

Subject: hi Gerry From: Ulf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 18:42:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry The song is called ` dirge` and it is on the record called : planet wawes. I agree , about taking things far too seiously, i did that when i was young also. Infact i still wonder why it was so importent for me , to know all the answers, seems like it was a sickness , that many from our generation had. My own childen , never care about god,,,,,,,,,,i thank god for that.. Cheers Ulf Ulf

Subject: Quiet and Cat From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:57:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know if anybody will be interested, but I was amused to see that over on LG Quiet and Catweasle have become great chatting buddies, surprise, surprise, bitching away together about the dreadful treatment he received here. Q is also all over the place on LG and also on AG, talking loads of trivia. Not much mention any more of his burning urge to expose M. It's like a breath of fresh air without him here and I probably shouldn't have mentioned him at all. With love to all, Livia

Subject: I have a confession, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 11:44:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, When I saw this post of yours I wanted to respond. I didn't want to use my name because of my recent experience of being stalked by some trolls, plus I have been trying to vacation from the forum. I've been reading and trying not to post. So in fairness and honesty I have to confess and tell you that I posted the ''see what happens when you mention trolls'' comment. It wasn't meant to hurt you, truly. Then it drew another comment, so I'm sorry. Just mentioning the trolls like Quiet and the other one(s) brings them forth. I'm sorry for not telling you outright and with my name, that to make posts like yours generally attracts them here. It's not fun to get stalked by the trolls, I hope it doesn't happen to you. And I do agree with you about Quiet... Again, my apologies, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re: I have a confession, Livia... From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 16:36:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cynthia, Thanks, you're very sweet. It's OK, I know I shouldn't have posted it, it only encourages 'em, etc etc - but I just couldn't resist it. I won't do it again! Lots of love to you, Livia X

Subject: See Livia? I thought that would happen... From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:57:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, See that Manx post below? That's why I didn't want to mention my name. I say ignore that cat. It's fruitless to respond. Best, Cynthia, let's see if the Isle of Man cat answers, that'll prove my point

Subject: Cynth and Livia From: Lesley To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:31:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I generally do not respond to them, or even enter a thread they have sprayed, because I find it extremely unpleasant. But then, I would not like them to think that I actually am intimidated into silence by their tactics. Considering the fact that it seems likely that I know both the gentlemen involved, my last ditch stand is that they are not aware of how they sound to others. Catweasel seems to think he has a right to vent his spleen on people who post here, and it has become a habit. I am hoping he will prove me wrong and exercise a little self restraint by not responding to this post. All the best, Lesley.

Subject: Re: Cynth and Livia From: Blue Point To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:17:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well sorry but I have to tell you this.You do not know me.And when you say you do ,it makes you look very silly. The simple fact that you and your friends marginalise your opponents and refuse to communicate with them demonstrates a low grade of fascism.

Subject: Re: I have a confession, Livia... From: The Manx To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:51:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So precious.Stalked?How about answered?Or are you entitled to make baseless statements with impugnity? Stalked?You are seriously disturbed.......

Subject: you mention the trolls? [nt] From: See what happens when To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:38:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Quiet and Cat From: Catweasel~) To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 09:10:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silly person.You liked the Walter Mitty post on AG.Wake up.If you read the thread you might get a handle on it... Quiet is ..er well...unusual....;)

Subject: Shakeup in Canadian Government! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:19:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This just in -- apparently Jean Chretien will NOT continue as prime minister after all!: Is it in the stars? Astrologer boldly predicts next Liberal leader at Psychic Expo MONTREAL (CP) - If the sign on astrologer Soundara Rajan's kiosk at the ESP Psychic Expo is anywhere near the truth, Allan Rock will certainly like what she had to say Saturday. 'Gets only 98 per cent accuracy and has only 49 years of experience,' read the disclaimer on Rajan's desk as she prepared herself to predict who will become the next leader of the federal Liberal party. Rajan was given three candidates - Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and Rock. After consulting her vast planetary charts and doing some quick calculations, Rajan gave her prediction. 'Allan Rock is the one who will be coming out of it with flying colours, that's what I see,' the Ottawa resident said confidently. 'Even though people might like Paul Martin and he could have high grades, there may be some kind of a conflict or something at the last minute. So Allan Rock will be the one, and Chretien will be there, but not quite.' Well that's that. With efficiency like this, who needs a leadership race? Rajan occupied one of about 100 kiosks at the annual psychic fair in Old Montreal, which this year displayed the impact of the technology age on the ancient world of fortune telling. Raymond Duquette of St-Faustin was there to show off his 'biofeedback camera.' The machine is basically a big camera connected to a box where clients place their right hand. Duquette said the box uses sensors to read 'wavelengths' and transmit them to the camera, where 75 lights are used to take that information and display them onto photograph in various colours. According to Duquette, the colours represent the client's 'aura.' 'People sometimes create a mask to hide themselves, or to become something they are not,' Duquette said. 'This removes the mask.' Sabin Caron wouldn't have come to the psychic expo without his trusty computer, which he has programmed to read palms, faces, tarot cards and analyse handwriting through the use of a scanner. 'The computer calculates each form, then it will say that this person has, for example, forehead number 1269,' Caron said. 'Then it will look in its program and find out what that type of forehead means.' Although there were few of these clairvoyant computers around, most of the psychics at the expo did their work the old fashioned way: reading palms or tarot cards and charging anywhere from $40 to $75 a pop for the trouble. One pair of fortune seekers left their reading utterly unsatisfied. 'She was telling us about our lives but she never got specific, it was very vague,' said Katherine Dicker after she and her friend Shelley Hawkins handed over $75 for a reading. 'I was expecting more details, for her to tell us things we had been through to make sure it was real. She said I was in a relationship that would be very good for me. I'm like, 'Hello? I'm single.' ' Hawkins didn't see any mystic insight in the reading. 'I could have done that just by reading a book and telling someone, 'Oh, life, love, whatever.' I wanted details,' she said. However, Marilyn Rossner, who is blessed with what she referred to as the 'gift,' defended her chosen vocation. 'I take what I do very seriously,' she said, bedecked in bright orange sunglasses that concealed a generous daubing of blue eyeshadow. 'I don't consider myself a fortune teller, I look upon each of us as having our own, inherent qualities. All I can do is guide them, I believe in teaching personal responsibility.' However, Rossner said, in her own particular way, that psychics shouldn't quit their day jobs. 'I certainly would not feel comfortable if I knew I had to do a certain number of consultations a month to pay my bills,' said Rossner, a retired special education teacher. 'I encourage people to have a job so they are able to use the gift. I believe the gift is given to us, so it's important to look upon it as a gift.'

Subject: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:47:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to my mole deep in the Latvian forest (or maybe one of the hundred beneath my lawn), Raja Ji, brother of two Guru Maharaji Ji's, will soon be touring the UK. Maybe someone could go along and ask him which of his brothers is the real Satguru. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - national email: february 2002 Events with Raja ji in the UK It is a great pleasure to announce that Raja ji will be attending a series of events in the UK as part of an extensive tour of Europe. Sat 23rd March Manchester An afternoon of inspiration for people with knowledge and aspirants Sun 24th March Bristol An afternoon of inspiration and information for people with knowledge and aspirants Monday 25th London An open event for everyone. The event will be suitable for guests. Easter Saturday 30th March London An event for the hindi/tamil speaking community Easter Sunday 31st March Leicester An event for the hindi/tamil speaking community Full details below. MANCHESTER 23rd You are invited to an afternoon of inspiration with guest speaker Instructor Raja Ji to be held at Manchester Conference Centre Sackville Street Manchester City Centre M60 1QD on Saturday 23rd March commencing at 4 pm. The event is for People with Knowledge and People preparing for Knowledge. Please note this is not an introductory event. If you are able to support the event costs, a suggested donation of Ł10 would be very welcome. BRISTOL 24th RAMADA PLAZA HOTEL (what was the Jarvis) Redcliffe Way, near Temple Meads station. Email address for map and directions: ramadajarvis.co.uk/hotels/BRSRP_4.html The event, for people with knowledge and aspirants, will be from 3.30 pm to 5.30 pm There will be a suggested donation of Ł5.00 - Ł10.00 to cover the cost of the event - but as always you are welcome to come if you are unable to give a donation LONDON 25th Monday the 25th March at Kensington New Town Hall, Hornton Street London W8 starting at 8.00pm until approx 9.15pm. The Nearest Tube Station is Kennsington High Street. 5 minutes walk from the venue. A warm invite is extended to everyone in London and the surrounding area. Please feel free to bring friends and guests who you wish to introduce to Maharaji. There will be materials and information made available before and after the event. LONDON HINDI 30th Type of Event: For Hindi/ Tamil people with knowledge, and aspirants Date : Saturday 30th March 2002 Venue: Westminister University College, Northwick Park, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex. Next to Northwick Park Hospital. Nearest Tube Station: Northwick Park- On Metropolitan Line. Buses: 183,182 Time : 6.30pm to 8.00pm Doors open: 6.00pm LEICESTER HINDI 31st Event Date - Sunday 31st March: Type of event - Hindi event for people with knowledge, and aspirants Start Time - 2.00pm (Duration up to 2 hrs) Venue - Hanover International Hotel Watling Street Hinkley Leics LE10 3JA --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -

Subject: Re: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: wpc girl To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow another chance to chew the fat with the old crew. good old raja ji always there to shore up the family firm I thought it was genuine brotherly loyalty that sent him out to pass the hat for big m, maybe I'll pop along for old times sake. Last time I went to one of his Knees ups he seemed not to remember me but it was good to say hi to old friends who did Only Ł5 or Ł10 to sit through a lengthy and heartfelt request to open my bank acount to the lord has to be a bargain thanks for the info and jai sat etc. wpc girl

Subject: Brother of 2 GMJ's - LOL! From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:28:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your funny line about Raja Ji (Daram Pal Singh Rawat), being the brother of two, count 'em two, Guru Maharaj Ji's made me laugh. Then I wondered, when does Raja Ji begin to feel that he should be the one to spread the word of his Master and father? It could happen and stranger things have happened.

Subject: spread the moola, like budda [nt] From: It's like buddah, darlink to To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:44:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: opie To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 18:20:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh sheesh John, you gone and done it now mate! The security will be tighter than a rat infested shark (whatever that is!). LOL :) Meet ya for a pint or three afterwards eh? OP

Subject: Re: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: Lobsang To: opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 01:04:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm confused I thought M's last name was Rawat but on his pilots licence it says Singh. Has he changd his religion to Sikh? Lobsang 2

Subject: Sikhs and Singhs From: Voyeur To: Lobsang Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:04:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should know the advice given to me when I used to go to India - All Sikhs are Singhs but not all Singhs are Sikhs.....

Subject: New Journey Entry From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:48:59 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I just posted a journey entry on E.P.O. for the first time and I look forward to seeing it up. I've been involved with E.P.O. and the forums for over a year and I have no doubt that the mind-fucks which passed as knowledge are still being worked out of my system. The archives of forum 5 are not accessible, if anyone here can do something about this. Thanks, Steve

Subject: Hello Steve... From: Cynthia To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:38:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like your journey. How are you? I'm taking a break from the forum (as you can see I'm lurking) and saw your name (now don't call me a mother). I hope you're well, Steve. Email me any time sylviecyn@yahoo.com You be well, Cynthia

Subject: Forum Archives From: JHB To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:47:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, The Forum 5 archives work fine for me. Follow the link from the home page which will take you to www.ex-premie3.org. If you have an old bookmark it won't work. I'll post your journey soon. John.

Subject: Text Of New Journey Entry From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:05:44 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I was nineteen in 1972 when I saw a poster in my school with maha's picture on it. I went to a program where I expected the maha to be speaking based on the advertising, and got fakiranand. He was wearing a saffron robe, as was a Hare Krishna devotee in the audience who got up during his speach and started taking exception to fakiranand's interpretation of the Gita. Fakiranand got up into the audience, which was my sister's high school auditorium, and people in the audience started laughing and crying. The program was aborted, but I made a mental note to check this out some time in the future. I also made a mental note when the lights started flickering and read in the next day's newspaper that a large power failure occurred in the entire west side of Montreal, the failing transformer being accross the street from the high school. A few months later I was in a friend's living room waiting for my friend's older brother who was supposed to cut my long hair so I could get a job. I wanted money to go to India to find the perfect master, or Satguru so I could find peace, contentment, etc. - I had read a lot of books. My friend's younger brother came in with a friend of his - the two of them had received 'knowledge' and gave me the address of the ashram so I could too. I did get the hair cut and did go to the ashram where I encountered mahatma krishnasukanand. I experienced there what I considered cosmic coincidences and experiences and concluded that the head of this organization, maharaji, must be cosmic and real. In 1977 I had not received knowledge or kept close contact with the ashrams, but wanted to meet maharaji to clear up confusion. I found out from my sister that maharaji was going to be coming to Montreal soon - another cosmic coincidendce so I thought. I was pacing my house for a few days before he came - there was a lot of nervous energy. I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again. Over the years I think I attended more local events than anyone else in my region, prompted by memories such as the ones I've just mentioned and hoping to some day 'realize knowledge'. So how did I end up in these web pages cricizing maharaji? I don't know - two years ago something told me that the whole thing was a monumental fraud. I'm still sorting out what all happened - may trying from this perspective will help. I intend to fill in more details later. Regards To All Steve

Subject: Thanks for sharing that Steve From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 23:19:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your telling of the story brings it all back for me. I received K from Fakiranand and Krishnasukanand was definitely the cosmic hipster ladies man. One thing that I'm not clear about, though. You said: In 1977 I had not received knowledge or kept close contact with the ashrams, but wanted to meet maharaji to clear up confusion. It sounds like you didn't receive K. If that's true, your story is a testament to the power of persuasion and seduction inherent in M's trip with or without K.

Subject: Thanks for your Journey, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:09:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was brilliant; beautifully written and took me back, way back to when we all thought the way you described your cosmic signs and omens and coincidences. You said: ''I experienced there what I considered cosmic coincidences and experiences and concluded that the head of this organization, maharaji, must be cosmic and real. ''I found out from my sister that maharaji was going to be coming to Montreal soon - another cosmic coincidendce so I thought. ''I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again.'' Yes, me too. I was there in Montreal in May of 77. It was very magical, cosmic, trippy, divine and well.....after all we thought Rev Rawat was Jesus, or even better much better than that, even greater than god. It makes me feel embarassed because you were still a kid and I was already 30 and still thinking like dumb hippie in those days and for many years afterwards too. Well, I was a slow learner. I hope there's more where that came from but thanks for taking the time to write this instalment.

Subject: Re: Thanks for your Journey, Steve From: Steve Quint To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 19:58:05 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Thanks for your inspiring response. As you may know, I have been going through an incredibly challenging time during the last few months, roughly dating back to the time I spoke to you on the phone. I cannot find your phone number for some reason - you know my email address so if you'd like to talk again, please email me your phone number. All the best, Steve

Subject: I'll email you, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 20:16:29 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I'll do it tomorrow when I'm off work but you can always email me and nag me if I forget.

Subject: Text Of New Journey Entry [nt] From: Good luck/regards Steve To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:22:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I second that as I said it in the first place:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Good luck/regards Steve Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:23:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:29:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi: I posted this (most of it anyway) on the AG2 forum in relation to an argument about terrorist cults. It basically is derived from some stuff I've been reading recently in Jerrold Post's excellent book: Political Paranoia: The Psychopolitics of Hatred. The relevance to cults like EV is a bit different than to hate groups, but I think it's on topic. There's a psychologist named Melanie Klein who has evolved something called 'object theory' that's very promising. The basic idea there is that we all internalize reactions to good and bad mothering that occurs in infancy. When our mother does something reassuring it gets internalized as the 'loving object' whereas when she does something threatening or neglectful it gets internalized as the 'persecuting object.' As a coping mechanism, because it's enormously threatening and uncomfortable to have an internal enemy, we learn to retain the loving object, making it the center of the self concept, and project the persecuting object so that others become the manifestation of that evil we seek to avoid in ourselves. There are even theories suggesting that the loving object is the source of our concepts about God, while the persecuting object is the source of our concept of the Devil. The process of reconciling these two incompatible objects has two consequences called the depressive and the paranoid-schizoid 'positions.' (We get depressed and full of self-reproach when we find the persecuting object within, and then paranoid when we project it onto others. So the two positions are opposing endpoints on a scale.) This all takes place in early childhood, and is natural. Most of us move back and forth between these positions as we mature, and eventually arrive at a middle position where we conclude that we had a 'good enough' mother. But some don't. Some people get stuck, for one reason or another. Or because of trauma they revert. These manifest as criminal behavior, or self destructive behavior, or just plain psychoses. But the point is that we all have both objects, and therefore have the potential for an imbalance. Enter group dynamics, and particularly religion and politics. You take perfectly ordinary people and subject them to a group dynamic of some sort and the pathological imbalances start to emerge as group behaviors. The frequency of psychoses, or at least psychotic behavior, can change radically. Take three group behaviors that are called, according to this model, the Dependency Group, the Pairing Group and the Fight-Flight Group: In the Dependency Group the members behave as if the leader were all-knowing and all-powerful. Eventually they conclude that they have no expertise or competence of their own, and ascribe all those qualities to the leader. They no longer trust their own judgment. [Seem familiar?] Similarly, in the Pairing Group the members act as though their 'job' is to produce the messiah or the millennium. And there's also the 'Fight-Flight' group, which sees itself surrounded by enemies, and chooses one of two possible responses. The point here is that the group dynamics overrule the naked preferences and proclivities of the individuals within it. It can cause a *much higher* and far more frequent manifestation of the paranoid-schizoid or the depressive position than would otherwise be the case, even to the point of binding all members to a psychotic behavior. This is what happened with the Jim Jones group, which was primarily a 'Flight' group dynamic. Terrorist groups are particularly adept at not only seeing enemies, but creating them. 'By virtue of their acts vis-ŕ-vis society, the terrorists transform their psychological state into a reality.' (Jerrold Post, p.85) Such groups may be small, or they may be national in scale (or even supranational). The specific beliefs of the group will determine the way the pathology manifests, as well as its frequency. For instance, much higher frequency of suicide bombers are manifested by Islamic extremist groups, because the larger belief system tends to create warrior or 'fight' cults. It is not that *all* Moslems are warlike or non-loving. So, the 'hook' in a group like the Maharaji cult is that they somehow put us closer to the loving object, by causing us to let down our normal defenses and to distrust our normal coping mechanisms. At least that was the case for me. We all retain a certain nostalgia for the loving object, of course. I think there are even situations where genuine creativity and constructive social change can be generated either by a religious or political group dynamic of this kind. The American Revolution comes to mind as well as the Indian Independence movement. The loving object could be the explanation for the phenomenon of charisma, as well. But it's very powerful medicine, and not to be employed lightly. If the group dynamic goes so far that it convinces people that their own expertise and insight are not to be trusted, or at least given credence, then chances are the dynamic isn't truly constructive. And if one begins to see a lot of fixation on either the depressive or paranoid-schizoid position that would be another alarm. So, to me this helps explain the very odd responses one sees in the Islamic world to surveys about 9-11. It also explains the seemingly mindless defenses we see so often from premies. It *is* a type of psychosis, pure and simple. And intervention at the individual level still makes sense, with cult busting and deprogramming techniques, for instance. Assuming most of these people would otherwise be well-balanced you should be able to return most of them to that state eventually, with the right intervention. The psychological imbalance is an artifact of the dysfunctional group dynamic. And where you have a dysfunctional paranoid group dynamic on a national scale, from which violent subgroups draw members, then such intervention would mainly be a means of gaining intelligence by 'reforming' certain violent cult members, until you can do something to change the larger dynamic and 'drain the swamp' that produces extremism. (No small task, I suppose.) At the very least it suggests that torture is not only immoral, but ill-advised because it merely reinforces the 'surrounded by enemies' fight group conclusion. And it's unnecessary, of course, given enough time. --Scott

Subject: Too deep for me From: Jerry To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 09:20:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, wouldn't you say this is just one of a hundred ways of looking at things? Take the mother/child dynamic, read into it, and voila!, we've got the terrorists all figured out - it's Mom's fault. I think not. I'd at least hope the theory would be more interesting, though. This one's kind of dull.

Subject: Re: Too deep for me From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 16:47:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't agree, it's not dull at all, just dense, and needs to be properly digested. I personally am very interested in these psychological theories; they go some distance in explaining why some people can disengage from M easily, and why some just cannot....in the same way as some people can become fixated on a loved one to the extent that they are utterly blinded to the person's true character, even when their attachment to that person is clearly to their own detriment. Remember Mike Finch's analysis a few weeks ago of the different types of premie? Seekers of enlightenment, gopis etc? Perhaps the people with strong psychological reasons for becoming neurotically attached to Maharaji were the gopi types? I find it all very interesting, and extremely revealing, the more I think about it... Over and out, Livia

Subject: Re: Too deep for me From: Scott T. To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 12:25:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry: Well, the test of a model is whether it works to explain and predict behavior. At the very least it offers a starting point to begin to test theories. No, I don't think there are 'a thousand ways to look at this.' Breakthroughs in the cognitive sciences, for instance, will probably fine tune some of these models, and we'll get closer and closer to an explanatory and predictive theory. --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:35:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Here's a Melanie Klein link. She's dead now, but she has quite a following--called Kleinians or some such. I've also provided a link to Alice Miller, whose writings, approach to infancy and childhood psychology, and child rearing are far superior to Melanie Klein's, IMHO. Far superior. In this link to Alice Miller you'll find a list of books and information about her psychological post-mortem of Hitler (including his childhood batterings). There's also an explanation of Freud's Oedipus Complex which has now been debunked (Miller was one of the debunkers). The Oedipus Complex has proved to be a huge setback in the history of all psychology because it wasn't real. Read about it. Might surprise you. I have an aversion to anything Freudian. Makes my skin itch.:) Psychoanalysts are a weird breed. I don't like them. They concentrate on symbols too much by taking much too much time with archetypes and crap like that, and sometimes create in their clients much more chaos than others in the world of psychotherapy would. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for them to figure stuff out for a client. Talk about milking it. As for the good mom/bad mom thingy, it's obvious to me that the mother will always be the most closely bonded to any child for obvious reasons. That's a generalization of course. I think Klein's 'object theory' is a way of explaining information about child abuse which has little value in today's world. Alice Miller, on the other hand, is proactive. Each to his own. Whatever... I'll say it again, Raven is a book about Jim Jones which explains through meticulous research the life of Jones from birth to death. I highly recommend it. The similarities between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult are stunning. Jones had an inner circle, as all cults do. He had charisma, as did Maharaji. He was called ''Father,'' by his followers. He did many of the same things Maharaji has done: he used followers sexually (female and male), was considered GOD by followers (his own invention and indoctrination), he programmed his followers to do his bidding using repetition and exhaustion, as well as taking control over their money; he was obsessed with having supreme control over everyone in his midst. Anyone who left the cult was considered a traitor, and someone to be stalked and harrassed. Jones instilled great fear of leaving his cult just like Maharaji does--long before they went to Guyana. The thing is this: Jones was getting a lot of negative publicity in San Francisco during the time he packed it all up for Jonestown. Once he got just about everyone there, it was no less than a concentration camp. Makes me wonder about Amaroo. And he held practice sessions called ''White Nights'' which were suicide rehearsals. When Jones carried out the mass murder, when he was faced with Congressman Ryan and members of the US press, many followers had already wanted to leave, did not want to kill themselves, and especially didn't want to kill their children. That's why the children were poisoned first. Even though they loved Jones as ''Father,'' or GOD, many still did not want to die. It was murder. Plus, you need to be careful about throwing around the word ''psychosis.'' There are correct definitions and many interpretations. Specificity is required around that word, IMHO. I do highly recommend reading Alice Miller's books. Alice Miller site: http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/booklist.html Melanie Klein (if link doesn't work) http://www.psychematters.com/bibliographies/klein.htm Cynthia Melanie Klein www.psychematters.com/bibliographies/klein.htm

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:25:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia: There is a huge temptation to regard these models as 'real' (I think the term is 'reify.') The problem is that the only model that's 100% accurate is reality itself. Because I'm a sociologist, I tend to prefer group theories to psychological explanations for human behavior, but psychological theories have their place. I wonder, for instance, what the value is of analyzing Hitler if you think (as I do) that he was simply the choice of a dysfunctional group dynamic that Weber predicted some 40 years before it manifested. Hitler even saw *himself* as 'replaceable' according to Hannah Arendt. Perhaps in understanding the leader, though, we get some further insight into the group. I'll say it again, Raven is a book about Jim Jones which explains through meticulous research the life of Jones from birth to death. I highly recommend it. The similarities between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult are stunning. Jones had an inner circle, as all cults do. He had charisma, as did Maharaji. He was called ''Father,'' by his followers. He did many of the same things Maharaji has done: he used followers sexually (female and male), was considered GOD by followers (his own invention and indoctrination), he programmed his followers to do his bidding using repetition and exhaustion, as well as taking control over their money; he was obsessed with having supreme control over everyone in his midst. Anyone who left the cult was considered a traitor, and someone to be stalked and harrassed. Jones instilled great fear of leaving his cult just like Maharaji does--long before they went to Guyana. Yeah, but this is all very common to dysfunctional groups. It can't all be because we have these predators sneaking around out there pulling the wool over our eyes. I think the way to go here is to investigate the susceptibilities of so-called 'normal' people. Not that the norm is necessarily healthy, but the susceptibilities exist because on some level they're just normal coping mechanisms. We have good reason, for instance, not to be 100% trusting or trustworthy. When Jones carried out the mass murder, when he was faced with Congressman Ryan and members of the US press, many followers had already wanted to leave, did not want to kill themselves, and especially didn't want to kill their children. That's why the children were poisoned first. Even though they loved Jones as ''Father,'' or GOD, many still did not want to die. It was murder. Well, this isn't all that difficult to explain either. Once there's a critical mass of belief it's easy to impose social and other controls on the rest, either through belief systems or through direct manipulation and/or force. The Soviet Union, under Stalin, was a paranoid society that had a paranoid leader. There has to be a certain recursiveness in that dynamic, but the Russian culture is susceptible to that sort of thing. Stir in a strong dose of Marxism and the result was fairly predictable. The point is that not just people and groups who are stuck in a paranoid position have the tendancy. We all do. I take your point about use of the word psychosis, but there must be a more accurate and powerful word than 'dysfunction.' That doesn't quite convey the capacity for delusion. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. --Scott --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you your post just blew over my head...phew That's okay. Thanks for replying, Scott:) Cynthia, who's trying to take a forum break, but couldn't resist

Subject: GBad Mata(thinks my older bro is!) From: bill-good mata(agrees I am god) To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:57:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Scott T, This 'The basic idea there is that we all internalize reactions to good and bad mothering that occurs in infancy. When our mother does something reassuring it gets internalized as the 'loving object' whereas when she does something threatening or neglectful it gets internalized as the 'persecuting object.' As a coping mechanism, because it's enormously threatening and uncomfortable to have an internal enemy, we learn to retain the loving object, making it the center of the self concept, and project the persecuting object so that others become the manifestation of that evil we seek to avoid in ourselves. There are even theories suggesting that the loving object is the source of our concepts about God, while the persecuting object is the source of our concept of the Devil' This may be perhaps defeated just on the 'peas in the pod' theorum. Same parents, same childcare, same benefits or horrors, and you get no two kids the same at all! Also, the subject matter is trying to dissect why our nature is why it is without first covering the issue of the nature of the god/devil thingee that we have to contend with. By leaving out the basic reality here, he is of course free to imagine that it could be this or that, but if he really wants to know why we are like we are, he cant short cut the learning curve by ignoring or discounting the god/devil force that the evidence insists is there!

Subject: i'm curious scott-- From: janet To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:56:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what are the 'odd responses ' you refer to among muslims re sept 11th? you didn't say. as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, Malcom X comes to mind, and he was murdered for betraying his previously likeminded brethren in the Nation of Islam [the Black Muslims of Elijah Muhammed]. So there goes that theory. Marianne has explaineto us repeatedly, here on these boards, that it was Jim Jones whbecame paranoid and moved his cult to Guyana, not the members. They had to go where he went, but the paranoia was his, not theirs. The enmity propagandized into the members of Al Qaida and its likeminded extremist groups does put them in the paranoia/enemies category, but they didn't make that notion up out of whole cloth from imagination. America's policies in their lands have given them ample material from which to conceive of their hatred and wrath towards America, the Government. I doubt that any but the actual sept 11th hijackers even know what America, the People, are like in real everyday life. and there again, too, sadly, in recent years, even the people seem to be degrading to a lower and lower level of behavior, witness the pervasiveness of profanity, smut, violence, crime, illiteracy, gang mentality, drugs, selfishness and overall crudeness present in society today, compared to a decade or a generation ago. As far as terrorist Muslims go, They weren't viewed by us as our enemies-not until they decided we were their enemies, and started carrying out acts against us, that polarized the sentiments. I think it goes back to the fall of the Shah of Iran in? 1979?, with the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the taking of the hostages. From there, it went to the Gulf war and Saddam Hussein, and now sept 11th and Osama Bin Laden. And assorted events in between, like lockerbie and the USS Cole and so forth. but erall, the theory, at least on the individual level, seems strong. I have one friend who rails against the Government at every turn, which becomes odd the longer you know him--until you learn his life story and find out that his father abandoned him in babyhood and rejected him, and the old man is in the Navy. Rather than face his pain over the rejection of his dad, the guy has sublimated his sense of rejection, rage, injustice and being wronged, onto a safer, more distant, impersonal target-ie, the Government--but it has trapped him stuck where he is, emotionally, developmentally, and intellectually. He has internalized the rejection to the point where he beats himself up for every weakness, and sabotages every good opportunity that appears. And of course, he seeks others who reinforce his feelings, so he unfailingly gravitates to the homeless, the runaways, the bitter and dispossessed, and scorns or distrusts the successful, the optimistic, the ambitious, or th conventional and happily established. And unfortunately, what rules is immediate feelings, so objective insight is all but impossible. As they say in Adult Children of Alcoholics, 'Normal feels strange.'

Subject: Re: i'm curious scott-- From: Scott T. To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:38:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's a little odd that the vast majority of Muslims don't believe the Arabs responsible for WTC, that the CIA or Israelis did it for some reason. as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, I actually hadn't considered that. Don't know if it would work, and the history of Islam suggests it wouldn't. No, I was just talking about getting intelligence, on targets etc. Marianne has explaineto us repeatedly, here on these boards, that it was Jim Jones whbecame paranoid and moved his cult to Guyana, not the members. They had to go where he went, but the paranoia was his, not theirs. The paranoia was the group's, and was enforced on those who would otherwise not have been inclined to go along through social pressure and outright force. It's nuts to think Jim Jones was the only person who was paranoid in that group. But the leader is obviously te one supplying the 'authoritative vision.' I think you'd be very hard pressed to explain the behavior of the people in this or most dysfunctional groups without access to a 'group dynamic' concept. Ultimately though, the source of the dynamic, what makes it work, is the basic split in human nature... the opposition of objects and the need to project. The enmity propagandized into the members of Al Qaida and its likeminded extremist groups does put them in the paranoia/enemies category, but they didn't make that notion up out of whole cloth from imagination. Who said they did? The belief in covert communists in the US government wasn't made up of whole cloth either. But paranoia has certain characteristics, for instance the exclusive search for and collection of 'evidence' that supports the conclusion, the failure to recognize the possibility of non-conspiratorial explanations for events, etc., etc. As far as terrorist Muslims go, They weren't viewed by us as our enemies-not until they decided we were their enemies, and started carrying out acts against us, that polarized the sentiments. Gee, I always considered them *my* enemies. Didn't you? The level of threat was certainly underestimated though. Hell, there were articles a decade ago in Atlantic about the eventual consequences of arming the Mujahadeen. Again, the level of threat was discounted but we knew the logic was valid. The world is a complicated place. You know, one of the things I always thought odd about the Salem incident was that *all* of the victims were Calvinists, in spite of the fact that there were a lot of Quakers and other people living in the area. Why didn't they see the Quakers, or the pagans for that matter, as potential witches? --Scott

Subject: Addendum From: Scott T. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:25:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, I decided I needed to expand on that answer. Actually my working theory is that Islam itself has to come to some conclusion about the 'Great Reversal' that resulted in the decline dating from the 17th Century just as the Western ascent really got humming. Reform movements, for instance the 'Young Ottomans,' in the 19th Century, the 'Young Turks' in the early 20th, and Kemal Ataturk, as well as the anti-slavery movement that began in the 1840s (to the extent that it originated within Islam and wasn't the result of Western pressure) all suggest that this re-thinking *can* happen. The anti-cult activity would play only a minor part, if that. --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:09:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent writing as usual, Scott, although I would not equate the Indian Independence movement with the American Revolution. There were plenty of psychotic devotees of Mahatma Ghandi who slaughtered thousands of Muslims and a few Brits too. (Eventually Ghandi was assassinated by one of his devotees who thought he had compromised too much with the Muslims.) But I'll save the poltical stuff for the other forum. :P I have certainly seen in my own mind that most of my mental dis-ease stemmed from contradictory feelings about my own mother some of which I only really finally resolved in my 30s.

Subject: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:22:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kali and Durga are often regarded as the same goddess. Of course everyone who knows anything about Hinduism has seen pictures of Kali depicted as giving birth from one hand and bearing a dagger dripping with blood in the other, a mala of skulls around her neck and a skirt of severed limbs around her waist. The goddess of sex and death. She is the favorite goddess of the Tamilian Indians in South Africa. Her various cults border on animism and black magic.

Subject: Re: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:56:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a female friend who was obsessed with thoughts of stabbing and killing her small son. The guilt of having the thoughts nearly drove her nuts, until she discovered and accepted that most mothers have these fantasies. At that point the thoughts stopped occuring with much frequency. I think it was the 'don't think about a white elephant' syndrome. Anyway, these are all just models. Reality is usually more complex. They're just meant to be a kind of tool or aid to understanding and treatment. --Scott

Subject: Re: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:13:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have never been able to identify with Durga, but I understood Kali intstantly, once i became a mother. I used to be horrified by the image of her, until I felt the murderous power awaken in me during pregnancy, knowing for the first time that I could easily kill anyone who came near and threatened my young--includiy own blood family members, if need be..but more astonishing still, realized that I could also kill my own children, to prevent anyone else from having them, or if they displeased me and disobeyed me to a point that endangered the survival of all of us, or any of a number of other inborn instincts. Beleive me, I was overwhelmed to find that such surges went thru me. But I understood Mother Kali completely from then on. She can kill her children precisely because she knows she can bring them forth again. It is a mistake to see her as merely a human mother. Think rather of mother in all life forms. Mother earth. Mother ocean. Mother Nature. The possessiveness of motherhood is shocking when it is experienced firsthand.

Subject: Phew... From: PatD To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:25:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...I always knew Mata Ji was a gold plated bitch. Where does that leave twinkle toes ? Glad to know we don't have to torture premies into submission to the monmot viewpoint. I am normal & I like Burt Weedon. (old song) My Bishop's eyes I've never seen Though the light in them may shine; For when he prays he closes his, And when he preaches,mine. (even older song) Sorry Melanie.

Subject: Let's not be sexist From: JHB To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:10:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the same internalisation and projection applies to fathers as well. Here are two experiences I had. The first was a year before receiving knowledge. I found myself on a bench beside a bowling green in the middle of the night in January 1973, in Fleetwood, Lancashire, tripping. The temperature was minus something. At the height of the trip, I faced the devil within me, but I held fast and tried to go there. The image changed to my father shouting. In 1977, I was watching and listening to Maharaji at Wembley Arena, London. It was the last night of the programme, and I felt particularly devoted. I had listened to satsang all day, hadn't spaced out at all. The only break I took was to get food, and even then I brought the food back inside the hall so I could continue listening. When Maharaji spoke in the evening, I was spellbound. During the songs after his satsang, I became very emotional, and saw my father in him, mixed with God. As you say, we, and Maharaji, played with very powerful medicine, and we shouldn't have treated it lightly. John.

Subject: I'm sexy, but not sexist. From: Scott T. To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:48:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John: I think internalization and projection are settled concepts and are supposed to apply to a lot of situations. In this model though, they establish the two objects because of the chronology, and the essential role of the mother in infancy. But with modern fathers participating much more at that stage of development perhaps the model needs to be expanded. Why couldn't the father contribute to the loving object, for instance? Why is he always the devil? --Scott

Subject: He isn't always the devil From: JHB To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:35:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my examples, the second one was seeing my father in Maharaji while I was feeling overwhelming love. I also had a memory while on acid of being a baby and seeing both my mother and father as divine beings with auras, and feeling divine love for them both. Whilst I agree that the feelings towards the mother are probably deeper, I don't think those towards the father are that far behind. John.

Subject: Re: He isn't always the devil From: Scott T. To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:28:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right. I forgot that. The Devil or God. Odd that the 'form' is male, but the internal object derives from the female (according to the model). There's a sort of asymmetric equality in the symbolism, that reflects the real world I think.

Subject: Powerful medicine From: Disculta To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:52:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott: thanks a lot for that. Very interesting! JHB: I agree that father stuff is very influential, and mine had everything to do with my attachment to MJ. However, the 'mother' influence is earlier and to a great degree pre-conscious in terms of how we've formed our identities. It seems to affect us on levels of the limbic brain and correlate, as Scott said, with our feelings about life and 'god' itself. I'm really into the excellent book 'A General Theory of Love' which explains a lot about attachment theory, among other things. Something that stands out in my memory is Mary Ainsworth's work, quoted there, about mothering styles. There are 3 kinds: **the mother who picks you up when you want to be picked up and lets you down when you want, statistically proven to produce a more 'secure' child and adult later; ** the ambivalent mother who sometimes is there for you and other times not, who produces an incredibly emotionally confused child/adult ** the lousy mother (as I said this is from memory, and not the right term), who produces a child/adult who has a REALLY hard time... I'm mentioning this, because when I was reading it, I really picked up on the stuff about the ambivalent mother or mothering style, as pertaining to our experience with MJ. It was my experience that he sometimes seemed to care, and at other times didn't give a shit. This basically flummoxed me emotionally to the extent that he dominated my emotional life for 12 years. And I think my personal experience of being ambivalently mothered made me supremely available for this experience, although I agree with Scott that the dynamics get incredibly amplified in a group. It really is/was powerful juju. love ktd

Subject: To Deputy Dog, a celebration for a new morning From: cq To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:16:48 (EST) Email Address: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk Message: If dogs run free, then why not we Across the swooping plain? My ears hear a symphony Of two mules, trains and rain. The best is always yet to come, That's what they explain to me. Just do your thing, you'll be king, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, why not me Across the swamp of time? My mind weaves a symphony And tapestry of rhyme. Oh, winds which rush my tale to thee So it may flow and be, To each his own, it's all unknown, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, then what must be, Must be, and that is all. True love can make a blade of grass Stand up straight and tall. In harmony with the cosmic sea, True love needs no company, It can cure the soul, it can make it whole, If dogs run free. Bob Dylan, from the 'New Morning' album.

Subject: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Deputy Dog To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 10:42:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The way I see it, is either the stories about Maharaji on EPO are true, or they are false. If they are false, this site is doing an incredible disservice to a man who is going around the world giving people a beautiful inner experience. If they are true, I don’t see how anyone could continue to follow this man. A few days ago I came to the horrible realisation that the stories are true. Last night I read a chapter from 'A Path with Heart' by Jack Kornfield of the Spirit Rock Centre. (Francesca knows about this group.) The chapter is entitled 'How to Work With Teacher-Community Problems – Honest Questioning.' According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? 8. Is the practice humourless? 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' Amen.

Subject: Good for you Dog! From: Sulla To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:21:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll send the list to some premie friends.

Subject: So Dog, congradulations, From: Tonette To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can you give us your real name? Tonette

Subject: Thanks DD From: Richard To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:07:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said below, your story is similar many of us and many more to follow. I acknowledge you for sticking to your view of things until you saw another view that serves you better. I get a lot of wisdom from Kornfield's writing and respect his role of teacher. It may have been he that said a true teacher will have the student's best interest at heart. I think he does that. My wife and I are reading 'After the Ecstasy, The Laundry' to each other. I look forward to hearing more of your progress on the ongoing path of life.

Subject: Amen, Dog-Good points.. From: Jim S. To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:05:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I appreciate your response. It acknowledges so much of what so many of us hav gone through in waking up to our former masters bullshit. I think this post would make a great 'best of' post for premies who are beginning to wake up, question, and take back their lives....the checklist is excellent... Thank you...

Subject: Who the hell's this Kornfield joker? From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:11:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll bug you with this, Richard, because I've already 'thrown so much crap' at Dog. :) But here's what he posted about Kornfield: According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. Like who the hell does this guy think he is anyway? Krishnamurti? The anti-guru guru? Any person with half a brain (i.e. not us when we were premies) would see this list as too obvious to even utter. Yet Kornfield has an audience. Oh well. I mean, seriously: The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Oh, wow. Isn't that something? Pretty much covers any which way people in power screw up although I think the categories are arbitrary and uninteresting. They overlap this way and all can be reduced to the first one but this guy's made Four Noble Truths out of it. Hm, maybe we should all write these books and say these same things back and forth to each other. Why not? It's all true, isn't it? Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? Duh! 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. Good work, Sherlock! 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? My oh my! 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? Didn't we already do this? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? Wow, Jack, I'm so glad I bought your book! 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? How insightful! 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? Did he do this in his sleep? At the gym? Driving to Safeway? Maybe at the checkout in Safeway? 8. Is the practice humourless? This one's wrong, by the way, because, as we all know from personal experience, there's a whole dimension of cult humour that can arise. Only serves those afflicted but it's humour. Bad one, Jack. 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? Puke! 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? This guy is the master of banality. Look, most of these are all great warning signs for cults. But they're so damn obvious, like I said, and here's another so-called spiritual teacher ingratiating himself with his readers as some sort of wise man for uttering them. Ooooooh, Jack Kornfield, the nice, relateable, chatty, jewish guru. Don't know why Dog bothers when he's already got one (i.e. Ram Dass). 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? Sounds like he's going to start talking about 'Good touching / Bad touching'. 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? Liberation? What's that? Oh you must mean book sales? Well, why didn't you say so? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? Holy cow, I never thought of THAT one! 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? Bad! The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Wrong, Kornfield, wrong. 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? True enough, as Joe and Fran mentioned, but, again, isn't this a bit obvious? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? No, Jack, it can't be! Is that kind of stuff really going on? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' Ditto. 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Ditto again. Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' What a complete crock of pooh! The guy's as full of it as the next one, only slippier. He's going to earn your trust by commisserating with you about the 'bad' guru that let you down. Now Jack's going to show you how important it was for you to go through this 'fiery gate'. And you guys fall for this? 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' So here it is. You went through that because you needed to because, don't forget, if it weren't for that 'bad' guru, dear student, you never would have found this 'good' one -- me, Jack. And who graduates from his kindergarten, by the way? Come on, this is all false credit to a false teacher. No? Am I wrong? Show me. Maybe I'm just too blind to see how wonderfully helpful this idiot is. Just cynical, materialist 'Baby? What Baby?' Jim. Yeah, that's it.

Subject: Re: Kornfield From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:27:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. You could have stopped right there, Jim. If Kornfield's writing doesn't ring your chimes, don't read it. If what he has to say is of no use for you, vote with your feet. Obviously Deputy Dog has benefited in a very positive way from Kornfield's pointers on 'Honest Questioning'. I have also benefited from his written and spoken words. That doesn't mean I worship the guy, send him my hard earned money or care if anyone else takes value from what he has to say. Besides, what does it matter if Dog or anyone else gets benefit from reading Kornfield, the Bible, Dawkins or the back of a cereal box? He said he benefited from what he read and I believe him. I said I benefited from reading one of his books. If you don't believe me or trust my judgement, so be it. It's not my job to defend Jack Kornfield to anyone. But FYI, here's his biography: Jack Kornfield is a psychologist, therapist, author and meditation instructor. He has studied meditation and Buddhism intensively, living as a monk in Thailand, Burma and India. Jack is a founder of Spirit Rock Meditation Center, holds a PhD in clinical Psychology, and is the author of A Path With Heart, and After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. In other words, he has extensive experience from the standpoints of both meditative introspection and the rigorous acedemic scrutiny needed to get a PhD. He's not just making this stuff up as a feel-good fairy tale but has the hard-earned credentials to back up what he says. He has enough experience with teachers and communities to speak with credibility. I've been around Kornfield in a retreat setting and he struck me as knowledgeable, quite humble, a man of integrity and not at all looking for guru status. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Subject: Fair comment From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:36:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Richard, I could have said nothing. On the other hand, it's just really tempting to make fun of self-righteous weenies like this guy. Don't you ever feel that way? Anyway, what really got me going beside the banality of it all was thinking that you could get a cult checklist like this only probably better from any ex-cult support group. But they don't try to dress up their advice with bullshit like this: 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' Oh thank you, oh pure teacher of awakening, for giving me the opportunity to experience going through the powerful and fiery gate of disillusionment. I really needed that. Yeah right! As if this guy knows anything about what people need or don't need.

Subject: Sacred Cows From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:10:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves. That bit about disillusionment being a gateway actually rang true for me. Many new posters have expressed something similar. As clinical psychologist, I assume that Jack has worked with numerous people who have shown that to be true about themselves. I seriously doubt that he's just making this up for his own pompous ego gratification. He did say 'For some people', so it didn't sound like some grand pronouncement to me. It came off as something he had seen as a trait among people he knew and he was reporting it as such. Sure Jim, I like to slaughter the occassional sacred cow. In fact, the third point in Posties' Four Fold Path is: Sacred Cows Make the Best Hamburgers. I can't recall what the other three are but they'll come to me. But hey, last time I checked, there was a former Satguru running around out there and someone knicknamed Deputy Dog had just told us he's decided to reject said former Satguru. Why pick apart the message that helped Dog arrive at the decision? Now, if Dog or anyone else starts telling us that Kornfield is greater than god, I'll slaughter that cow with you. BTW, I enjoyed your skewering of the "Good Religions" down below. If it makes you feel better, call him Kornflakes. That's what his friends call him to his face and he digs it. Meanwhile, I think he can stand up to the scrutiny. By the way, I just got The Blind Watchmaker and it better by good or you're gonna hear about it fella.

Subject: Hey Richard(Postie),this is good stuff From: secret admirer To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:57:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I loved the hamburger one.... Would you, or someone, consider compiling a list of great quotes that relate to this awakening and exiting process? It could be really funny, and illuminating and inspiring as well. Seriously, you and some others have come up with some really great quotes and it would be a shame to not showcase them in some sort of EPO category.... Also, nicknames and word-plays are great too....

Subject: You're it! From: Richard/Postie To: secret admirer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 13:49:24 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Gee, thanks for your nice words. It's intriguing to have a secret admirer. Can you tell us all a little about yourself? It's true, there are so many wonderful, humorous, pithy and wise phrases posted here. If you like some of the quotes you see, save them to a text file for awhile and then share them all with us sometime. I did a similar thing with a Forum Glossary. I was going to repost it for you but can't locate it at the moment. Meanwhile, check out the Best of Forum posts if you've not already done so. My email's above if you want to get in touch. Best of Forum www.ex-premie.org/pages/best.htm

Subject: Re: Sacred Cows From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:33:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Even Laurie says I went too far this time. Everyone here --- meaning her, I guess, what's my opinion matter? -- agrees. :) So I won't even try to defend myself. I was bad. Jack Kornfield? Why not? Hell, it could have been worse. It could have been Jesus, I guess. Or Wayne Dyer. Marianne Willamson? Aw, who cares anymore? Jeez whiz, it could have been Tony Robbins or Deepak Chopra, let 'em all in. I just talked to an old premie friend of mine who, with her husband, had sold her house in Vancouver a few years ago and opened upa bed and breakfast outside Tuscon. She's in touch with my old girlfriend, the one I'd left the ashram with years ago. Anyway, Nancy, who I spoke with, is completely into Buddhism. Deborah, my ex, is apparently completely into this other guru, someone 'descended' as they say, from Kirpal Singh. Her husband, Steven, is completely into native american spirituality. All those 'completely to's' are accurate and to code. The two women, both ex-premies now, of course, just look back at Maharaji as a 'bad teacher'. Who knows, maybe it's time for me to meet my next teacher. They say that he'll be there when I'm ready. As for the book, Richard, take it back. Nothing but problems. :)

Subject: 'Went too far...?' From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:29:27 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I don't think so, Jim. Although the guy is probably a fairly benign presence in the lives of those he touches - the fact remains he describes himself as a 'meditation teacher'. As such, he is claiming an unprovable authority - and, thanks to his New-agey-sounding Foundation of the Whateveritbloodywas, is probably making a comfortable living from this faked authority. At least with something like Hatha yoga, you could demonstrate some sort of expertise by doing a full lotus on your head for half-an-hour, or whatever. A cookery instructor will dazzle you with exotic cuisine. But meditation? - No way. It is a game of 'let's pretend' for both teacher and student. Or if it isn't, how would anybody ever know? - certainly not from that shopping list of insights. As for the Phd in Clinical Psych... that may be true enough, but it looks to me like he is using a past status earned in halfway-legitimate scientific areas as hook for the 'skeptically-minded'. (Unless someone wants to explain to me otherwise...)

Subject: Yes, Nigel's right -- Screw all of you! :) From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:24:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh! And to think I started out as a people pleaser! :)

Subject: Hey Laurie, return the $50 From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 19:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Send back the $50. Convincing Jim to honor his Inner People Pleaser only lasted a day so I want a refund. You can keep it if you can convince he and Nigel that while meditation teachers may not exist, the possibility of meditation teachers does exist. Richard, sorry gotta go get in my Orgone Box ;)

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:05:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks, Jim From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:57:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just to be clear, since waking up from M&K, I've been very guarded about giving power, authority or credit to any so-called teacher. I don't think a capital T teacher is neccessary but learning from many sources is valuable. The problem lies in giving up rational thought in trade for the cure-all. What I refer to as trading the family cow for the magic beans. Who knows, maybe it's time for me to meet my next teacher. They say that he'll be there when I'm ready. Oh, so you assume it'll be a he? How sexist of you Jim. I heard there's an Accessing Your Inner Feminine seminar coming to Victoria so there's hope for you.:) And a big thanks to Laurie. I guess now I owe her that $50 I promised for talking some sense into you. You guys have a great weekend.

Subject: THANK YOU, Richard! [nt] From: Francesca To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:03:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Genuine happiness and maturity From: Mirror To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:30:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Very good point Jim. When inside the cult, people behave (perhaps partly unconsciously) according to the 'rules'. People do anything to keep up appearances (to themselves or others) by showing that one is 'in'. Therefore a mature and happy attitude can be very misleading indeed. In my view by no means proof of genuine contentment. On the other hand, what is proof of genuine happiness then? If I tell you that I am happy, it is my word against yours if you believe that I am not. Was I unhappy when inside the cult? Actually I don't know. Back then I thought I was, I experienced myself as happy. Is my happiness today more genuine?? I really don't know, these are difficult questions. All I know is that today I do not blame moments of grief and suffering on 'not having practiced enough' or 'not having listened enough'. Mirror

Subject: you're a dog too, Jim From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suddenly get it, why you are an old friend of Dep, here. You're both dogs. He's the happy go lucky, tail wagging, devoted, adoring kind of dog. He'll trot out and lick the hand of anyone, go for a run to the park, fool around for the sheer joy of it. HE's a grinning dog. You, on the other hand, are a barking dog. A junkyard dog. A dogged dog. Wary, wily, watchful, protective, suspicious, apt to raise your snout and bay at the slightest sniff of untrustworthiness. But since you're a dog, Dep hangs by you anyway. Cause he understands: a dog's just gotta be a dog. and the atheism fits, too: Dog is God spelled backwards. For the argument: here's a group I can think of, where none of the questions Jack posits can be answered in the affirmative, which puts them in the clear as far as whether thay can be trusted as a path with heart: Neale Donald Walsch, and the Conversations with God works. Read em. They'll shake you up.

Subject: Very funny, Janet From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:52:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neale Donald Walsch, and the Conversations with God works. Read em. They'll shake you up. You mean this guy?: Veronica: Can you talk about the part in the book where God said you were one of his messengers? Neale: Yes, well of course, it was made clear to me that we are all messengers of God at some level. People who choose to be messengers at a very high level are even numbering in the thousands on this planet. And so, I don't see myself or view myself as particularly special in this regard, but merely as one of many people on the planet who have chosen themselves. Many are called, but few choose themselves. I am one of many who has chosen himself to accept the responsibility of being a messenger of God. Even as I say those words, it sounds a bit scary if not to say pretentious, and I wish that none of those feelings came up for me, but I am still very much human, and they do. Yet, I will not retreat from the words themselves because I do see that I am that. I think that we all are to the degree that we allow ourselves to be. I believe that we all have the opportunity placed before us to both hear the truth of God and to re-send it or to amplify it if you please, to the rest of those whose lives we touch and through the daily thoughts and words and actions that emanate from us. To that degree we become messengers of God. I don't think that many people are seeing themselves in that way and even of those who do, perhaps many are intimidated from accepting the responsibility. I have done that. I have placed myself in the public eye as a messenger of God in a most extraordinary way and I now stand with the consequence of that, which is that my private life has disappeared completely. It is not very possible to stand up in front of the world and declare oneself to be a messenger of God and not loose one's personal life, especially since this book is being translated into 19 languages around the world. It will be released between now and September in China, Israel, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, South America, all over the place. Veronica: Did the huge success of the book surprise you? Neale:Well, yes and no. If I could give that kind of an answer. Yes, I think it did surprise me at one level and at another level, when I thought about it more than 20 seconds, I realized that if in fact it was God's intention for this book to touch the world, then it wouldn't surprise me at all, it shouldn't, that it has become such an instant success. And so, yes and no. I think that from a limited physical perspective that I sometimes hold as the personality known as Neale, I was a bit shocked at both the speed and the enormity of its success but from a higher level, when I move to my own highest place of being-ness, I see that it is all perfectly natural and normal for this outcome to have occurred, and for it not to have occurred would have been the surprising thing given God's intentions in the matter. That's hilarious.

Subject: Gee thanks Mr. Warmth! From: Deputy Dog =) To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:58:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll bug you with this, Richard, because I've already 'thrown so much crap' at Dog. :) But here's what he posted about Kornfield: According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. Like who the hell does this guy think he is anyway? Krishnamurti? The anti-guru guru? Any person with half a brain (i.e. not us when we were premies) would see this list as too obvious to even utter. Yet Kornfield has an audience. Oh well. I mean, seriously: The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Oh, wow. Isn't that something? Pretty much covers any which way people in power screw up although I think the categories are arbitrary and uninteresting. They overlap this way and all can be reduced to the first one but this guy's made Four Noble Truths out of it. Hm, maybe we should all write these books and say these same things back and forth to each other. Why not? It's all true, isn't it? Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? Duh! 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. Good work, Sherlock! 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? My oh my! 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? Didn't we already do this? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? Wow, Jack, I'm so glad I bought your book! 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? How insightful! 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? Did he do this in his sleep? At the gym? Driving to Safeway? Maybe at the checkout in Safeway? 8. Is the practice humourless? This one's wrong, by the way, because, as we all know from personal experience, there's a whole dimension of cult humour that can arise. Only serves those afflicted but it's humour. Bad one, Jack. 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? Puke! 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? This guy is the master of banality. Look, most of these are all great warning signs for cults. But they're so damn obvious, like I said, and here's another so-called spiritual teacher ingratiating himself with his readers as some sort of wise man for uttering them. Ooooooh, Jack Kornfield, the nice, relateable, chatty, jewish guru. Don't know why Dog bothers when he's already got one (i.e. Ram Dass). 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? Sounds like he's going to start talking about 'Good touching / Bad touching'. 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? Liberation? What's that? Oh you must mean book sales? Well, why didn't you say so? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? Holy cow, I never thought of THAT one! 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? Bad! The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Wrong, Kornfield, wrong. 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? True enough, as Joe and Fran mentioned, but, again, isn't this a bit obvious? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? No, Jack, it can't be! Is that kind of stuff really going on? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' Ditto. 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Ditto again. Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' What a complete crock of pooh! The guy's as full of it as the next one, only slippier. He's going to earn your trust by commisserating with you about the 'bad' guru that let you down. Now Jack's going to show you how important it was for you to go through this 'fiery gate'. And you guys fall for this? 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' So here it is. You went through that because you needed to because, don't forget, if it weren't for that 'bad' guru, dear student, you never would have found this 'good' one -- me, Jack. And who graduates from his kindergarten, by the way? Come on, this is all false credit to a false teacher. No? Am I wrong? Show me. Maybe I'm just too blind to see how wonderfully helpful this idiot is. Just cynical, materialist 'Baby? What Baby?' Jim. Yeah, that's it. --- Don't you find it bizarre that you mention the word 'irritating' in a lot of your posts. Hey, I've got it! Maybe you should write a book. Yeah, that would teach those bastards a lesson. But wait a minute, it couldn't be that you want to be our guru, could it Jim? No. No, no that would be jealousy. You just want to help us, right? Yeah that's it. And I didn't quite get that 'Baby, What Baby' part at the end of your post. Could you explain that? =) P. S. It was Alan Watts that gave me my start, not Ram Dass. So blame him.

Subject: You're welcome From: Jim To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:27:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just hear a CBC interview with an Alberta politician who's brought a private member's bill to declare the square dance the official dance of Alberta. It was bizarre as the guy had no sense of humour. The show host just kept trying to make these light litle jokes and the poor guy just couldn't get it. That has nothing to do with this. Dog, the baby comment was as in throwing out with the bathwater. Anyway, I just hate gurus. I hate the institution. I laboured under a guru for years and, yeah, I don't like them. Even the soft, little bunny rabbit ones. But what about my criticisms? Valid or not? Explain.

Subject: you didnt intelligently discuss From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:03:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, those weren't criticisms. Read your piece again. You used mockery, rhetoric, confidence techniques, ad hominem ridicule, but nowhere in all of that did you sit down to a serious, thoughtful, brain- using discussion of the substance of any of them. You haven't set anything out on the table for us to even begin to debate! Let me see if I can make this clearer. Try this: Try extracting just your responses, without the quotes of Jack Kornfeld, and listing them separately. Now--taking just your list of retorts: there is nothing substantial there, which would give anyone anything to think on, mull over, consider or refute or have an opinion about. There is nothing specific there! YOur remarks could be about anything! In truth, they are woefully inarticulate. You could be ridiculing a sportscaster. You could be making fun of a member of parliament. You could be heckling your neighbor over the fence! There is nothing to address. You don't present any thesis with which to take up! If you have some thinking man's criticisms of Jack Kornfeld's statements, don't you think it ought to be identifiable in your text that it is Jack Kornfeld's ideas with which you want to take issue, and why? If you have nothing to say, then why say anything? What, if anything, useful, did you have to say about this? I don't see anything! The man wrote the book out of a sense of probably seeing the tremendous number of people out there who are being taken advantage of, some of them unable to think in the savagely analytical way that you have been taught to, in law school... ok. gotta back up. ya see, Jim, a goodly number of the normal population just responds to life exactly as it reaches them. They don't calculate, they don't manipulate, they don't suspect or analyze or angle for anything--they just take life how it hits them. theyre honest. they're unassuming. they're ordinary. theyre sympathetic. they trust. they believe what they hear, see, feel, think. some of them are even naive [gasp]. Know what? they arent to be scorned. they arent to be mocked and made fun of. they are being their natural selves, as they are meant to be. people get to be suspicious , untrusting, cagey, wily, defensive and dissembling by being betrayed. by being burned. being open is not the crime. deceiving another is the crime. unlike you, Jack is moving to address those honest, unassuming people who are ordinary and trusting, who hear stuff that sounds good--and they want to do something good-- and he's speaking to them where they live, giving them plain help to sort out the bad from the worthy BEFORE they have to get betrayed. and he's also helping the betrayed sort out how to go on, to pick up the pieces, without having their bad experience ruin for the rest of their lives their hopes of what they still wanted to do, to be, to accomplish, to help with. Some people, believe it or not, don't want to carry around a chip on their shoulder in bitterness the rest of their life. Some people don't view the world as an adversarial contest, in which they have to always win, by giving the other guy a loss! And someone has to look out for them, since they don't know, going into it, that not everyone is as good hearted and believing and trusting as they are. I wouldn't call that something to mock and ridicule and make fun of. Strange, that you, do.

Subject: Re: you didnt intelligently discuss From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 14:39:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Jim's remarks gave me pause, as I am one of the people who might have fallen for this guy and his 'fiery gate.' Not now of course, but maybe two years ago. I find Jim's remarks a breath of fresh air, actually. ya see, Jim, a goodly number of the normal population just responds to life exactly as it reaches them. Is this a good thing? I don't think so. They don't calculate, they don't manipulate, they don't suspect or analyze or angle for anything--they just take life how it hits them. Yeah, and they watch 6.2 hours of TeeVee each day and have the functional literacy of a twelve year old and most never have an original thought their entire lives. What a thing to aspire to, sheesh. These 'qualities' you mention are exactly what most people must struggle against (or should) in order to have an examined life worth living. they're honest. they're unassuming. they're ordinary. theyre sympathetic. they trust. they believe what they hear, see, feel, think. some of them are even naive [gasp]. We call these people loosers.:) Seriously, you don't recommend that people cultivate these sterling qualities, do you? Surely you analyse and manipulate your environment just a bit, don't you? Taking life as it hits you sure sounds like a passive approach to me.

Subject: Re: you didnt intelligently discuss From: Deputy Dog =) To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:52:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Jim's remarks gave me pause, as I am one of the people who might have fallen for this guy and his 'fiery gate.' Not now of course, but maybe two years ago. I find Jim's remarks a breath of fresh air, actually. ya see, Jim, a goodly number of the normal population just responds to life exactly as it reaches them. Is this a good thing? I don't think so. They don't calculate, they don't manipulate, they don't suspect or analyze or angle for anything--they just take life how it hits them. Yeah, and they watch 6.2 hours of TeeVee each day and have the functional literacy of a twelve year old and most never have an original thought their entire lives. What a thing to aspire to, sheesh. These 'qualities' you mention are exactly what most people must struggle against (or should) in order to have an examined life worth living. they're honest. they're unassuming. they're ordinary. theyre sympathetic. they trust. they believe what they hear, see, feel, think. some of them are even naive [gasp]. We call these people loosers.:) Seriously, you don't recommend that people cultivate these sterling qualities, do you? Surely you analyse and manipulate your environment just a bit, don't you? Taking life as it hits you sure sounds like a passive approach to me. --- Taking life as it hits you sure sounds like a passive approach to me. Yeah, it's called vipassana. gerry, janet is not recommending that we aspire to become passive, naive zombies. There is a time to be passive and there is a time to be active. There is a time to use your mind and a time to quiet your mind. I'm sure she would want you to use all of your talents and abilities and have as many choices as possible. To throw out the intellect and live completely in a meditative state is just as nutty as throwing out the meditative state and living totally in the intellect. It's better to have a balance wouldn't you say. I'm sure janet would agree that people would be better off if they had a balance between the two. Why put all your eggs in one basket? There is a time to analyse and manipulate your environment and there is a time to mellow out. People go to Spirit Rock meditate to mellow out. They are not as you say, 'loosers.' This prayer by Dr. Rheinhold Neibuhr works for me: God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change Courage to change the things I can And wisdom to know the difference.

Subject: learn me devotion From: gerry To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:26:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well Dep, now that yer realized maybe you could teach me a little of that there vapissanta meditation you've been braginn' about.

Subject: Re: learn me devotion From: Dep =) To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:18:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well Dep, now that yer realized maybe you could teach me a little of that there vapissanta meditation you've been braginn' about. --- As requested: http://www.vipassana.com/course/

Subject: Nothing else needed saying From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:22:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kornfield's checklist was, in my opinion, a combination of trite and wrong. The trite I pointed out and no, there's nothing much to add to that. It's trite. Obvious. Like, duh! The wrong I commented on but you failed to comment on that, didn't you?

Subject: Thanks janet, I wish I'd said that [nt] From: Deputy Dog =) To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:08:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Woof From: PatD To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:00:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' As Madame de Monthalont(sp) said to Voltaire...'the worst thing you can do to anyone is to destroy their illusions'. Just so you've got both sides of the picture. Welcome to ambiguity,& love on the small scale. All the best: Pat Dorrity,Stratford-upon-Avon,England.

Subject: Re: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Joe To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:44:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very interesting list. This one really jumped out at me: Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? This is one of the most regressive things about Maharaji. If he were a true teacher, he would be encouraging people to grow and move on, because there is only so much he can teach them. Instead, they remain students, children really, in their relationship to Maharaji for their entire lives. This is so unhealthy. And, if anything, over the years premies have had less ways to express themselves except to give Maharaji devotion and money. They can't even give satsang anymore, for example. They just sit and listen, worship and give money. Period. Total childish regression.

Subject: Re: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Mirror To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 08:44:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I felt the same response Joe. It was a totally new reality, a bit scary at first, to discover that I was my masters' equal. That the only difference between us was that I had decided to put him on a pedestal at some point in time. It was only after EPO that I realized that I am not even his equal, but even a much better and more honerable human being than he is. Mirror

Subject: Total, childish regression From: Disculta To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:35:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, exactly Joe. The amazing thing is that, in the early days, the opportunity to give satsang was actually quite empowering. I definitely remember times when MJ was just a photo on the altar, but the real thing that was happening was in the room with the premies. And although we were spouting partial bullshit, we were at least expressing something and sharing a certain energy that was at times quite uplifting. I can't imagine for the life of me what there could be for anyone in the post-premie-satsang era. love ktd

Subject: Disculta,here's the payoff...kinda From: La-ex To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I can't imagine for the life of me what there could be for anyone in the post-premie-satsang era'.... Good point, but here is what the payoff is these days for those church ladies who continue to endeavor to be good premies... It's not so much about what 'good stuff' you might get for being a premie, but what 'bad stuff' you might avoid by 'hanging in there', and not leaving the perfect master. Remember two important things: 1)To most premies,m is still the 'perfect master',with whatever connotations that might bring up... 2)A double negative might equal a positive. In other words,if in staying, you can avoid something bad, that might be considered good. A few of the reasons for staying: 1)It's still a comfortable thing to do, with some social connections that are nice to stay up with, either locally, or at large programs. For some people, it's easier to just let the whole thing gradully fade away,rather than rock the boat of their own carefully guarded concepts. Those concepts are the umbilical cord to the perfect master-why cut them by thinking, when you have been conditoned for 20-30 years to NOT think? As one premie told me about the Dettmers revelations: 'It's simple...if I don't think about it, I'm OK...besides, I won't believe it until m says it himself....who do I trust more?-M or Dettmers?...... 2)Avoid guilt possibly felt by leaving the perfect master. Remember, you promised your life to him, and he's still around. Are YOU going to refuse GOD? 3)It's insurance, to stay around,'just in case'. As wacky as that seems, many religious people have told me the same thing about their religion. They don't necessarily believe it all, but it costs nothing,or very little, to BELIEVE. (Little do they know, how much it DOES cost to BELIEVE) And just suppose it IS true, won't you be glad that you stayed? 4)A chance to possibly be around the big guy, in the inner circle. This is an extremely powerful idea...most premies have never been around m, and they are very curious about what it would be like. Gurus love to create this vacuum around them, and premies are drawn to it, until they realize that like all vacuums, it is completely empty. The fascination is always there, and a good guru can milk it for all it's worth. This also creates a power over those in the 'inner circle' to obey in order to not get kicked out, when they know there are numerous others waiting in line to take their place. 5)Staying, even marginally, is SO much easier than leaving.If you leave, you have to do some serious soul searching. If you stay, even though you don't realy buy into it completely, you don't have to rock your concept boat. One friend of mine said this-- 'All I have to do is put in one hour a week at the hall, and nobody bugs me'....he never once noted how bizarre that sounded, which bings up the next point: 6)There is a deep,deep seated fear of leaving that most premies have been conditioned for 20-30 years to accept. They believe that their life would be worse if they left, rather than better. The believe that 'the mind' would swallow them up and destroy them. This is not talked about too much, but it is still a premie belief for many. Also, most premies I know don't come close to practicing for an hour per day, so they put in their 10-15 minutes, go to a video once every week or two, and are still 'on the team'. 7)Many premies are still waiting for m to 'manifest his work', or 'reveal himself'. They are still hoping that m will finally get it together, and do what he promised to do. Currently there are 2 major beliefs that EV is 'leaking' to the premies: a)Maybe m is human, after all. They don't say what that might be, but it serves to cushion the blow when rank and file premies begin to hear some of the stuff on EPO. b)EV is actually telling city contacts that the people around m, from DLM to EV, have always kept people in the dark, and manipulated things. Of course, m is not to be implicated, and the blame is placed precisely where it should be-on the shoulders of the poor premie. This concept dovetails rather nicely with the current 'EV downsizing'--m can imply that the 'downsizing' is not because faith is eroding and donations are drying up, but because it is a necessary 'housecleaning' that will now FINALLY let him 'manifest' his 'unique vision'. The dysfunction is hard to come to terms with. The poor premie who gave their life completely to m is blamed for m's inability to succeed. Many of them are way behind in life, with little savings, little career, little relationship experience,a cheap apartment, a beat up old car, and not much in the way of self-confidence or self-esteem. M tells them they have failed, and failed him. They have not experienced the happiness he promised them, and they believe it is still 'just around the corner' if only they would 'get off the fence', and really practice more. If you really belive that M provides the key to happiness, it is SO easy for him to continue to guilt trip you into staying...after all, who can ever say they have enough happiness, or couldn't be just a bit happier? I think this is why EPO is so incredibly threatening to M. For the first time, the average premie who has been so easily manpulated, may finaly see through the facade, and see that M doesn't have the spiritual contenment or happiness he talks about, and that they are better off putting their sincerity elsewhere. I think that most of the reasons for staying these days, are not for positive reasons, but simply to avoid negative, or perceived negative consequences. EPO is brewing the coffee for premies to smell. When they do wake up and smell the coffee, they may just decide that M is not their 'cup of tea' (or coffee). Time for me to have mine. Have a great weekend.

Subject: Very good La-Ex From: Joe To: La-ex Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:12:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, and I agree with Livia that it's very true. Plus, all the things you mention are the same that children go through with parents. There seems to be some basic instinct in children that parents are vital to their survival, and thus they will remain devoted to them even if they are abused, for example. The same seems to be true of members of the Maharaji cult. All those things, like 'just in case' and the double negatives can only continue if you choose not to examine the actual facts of what is happening, and if you constantly ignore your own better judgment and values, which is what children often to in relation to adults. The whole cult is so much one of lack of self-esteem, lack of trusting your own thoughts and feelings. That's why people feel so liberated when they become ex-premies, although it can be scary to trust your own thoughts about the cult after being indoctrinated to avoid and mistrust them for so many years. But when they start to listen to and trust their own feelings and analytical abilities, and that feels great.

Subject: Re: Disculta,here's the payoff...kinda From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was abslutely brilliant, la-Ex and just about said it all. I'm printing it out to distribute to a couple of 'drifting' friends. Thanks a million. With love, Livia

Subject: Now that's a BEST OF FORUM** From: Francesca :~) To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:42:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Put quite well. I have heard the 'cheap insurance' argument myself when some of my relatives stayed in the church they were raised in for several more years that they really had to, rather than think about it and decide whether or not to walk. With M, the cost is steep. Bests, F

Subject: ***Fantastic Post La-X*** From: Deborah To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:54:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi La-X, It's nice to see your posts again. What an elaboration! This is a post that should be available for new people to read. I mean it. You nailed it, dude. Some of the stuff was actually new to me, although not surprising ;) EV is actually telling city contacts that the people around m, from DLM to EV, have always kept people in the dark, and manipulated things. They are covering their ass and conditioning the ears of the city officials. So when the news hits, it will sound old and familiar. EV is probably morphing into a spin machine to affect all media. Unless the ex-premies understand what M is trying to do, they won't be able to combat it. One must think like them, second guess their moves, and be pro-active. M is restructuring the look of the cult in anticipation of media speculation. The longer people wait to inform public, the more difficult it will become. Why? It won't look the same as the allegations of the ex-premies. It's hard to convict someone of past doings. If M could be fingered today, it would upset the applecart he's arrainging. cheers, deborah, who's going for a coffee herself right now

Subject: DD's epiphany-BEST OF FORUM From: Marianne To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:55:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: Thanks for sharing with us what it was that finally pushed you over the edge. Jack Kornfield's questions and comments outline the criticisms and concerns that we have been discussing for years with respect to M/EV. I suppose it took a disinterested but insightful third party to put this all in perspective for you. Hopefully your transformation, and what caused it, will be just as helpful to lurking and fence sitting premies. Congratulations again. Marianne

Subject: Yes, yes, REALLY A BEST From: Francesca :~) To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:51:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, this is a great list. The one that Joe pointed out about always being students and never being able to graduate or teach jumped out at me too, but there were many others. I forgot about that list. I saw it published somewhere, perhaps in the journal Inquiring Mind, because I haven't read that book. Powerful stuff. Great epiphany. peace and love, Francesca

Subject: Yes, good on you, Poochie From: PatC To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:17:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'll save my BEST OF FORUM kudos for when you write a great post in your own words. I don't care how spiritual it might be - I'm just so happy for you that you are now standing on your own two feet. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Yes, good on you, Poochie From: Deputy Dog To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:07:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I don't write in my own words. I prefer to plagiarize because I find other people so much more interesting. We do have something in common however. Even though I was born in England, like you, I was raised in Africa.

Subject: Holy Cow, Poochie! From: PatC To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:40:12 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I don't know if you've noticed, but I've definitely heard a little laugh in your voice and whole lot more balls. That massa ''fixed'' all us dawgs good. Your sense of humor - well, actually I never even knew you had one. You were always so damn pious and serious. Welcome to the fun-house, fella. Do you want some Doggy Darshan? Maybe Thelma made the Doggy Darshan web page specially for you. And email me any time you want and I don't even care if you do it incognito because I want to find out where in Africa and you may not want to say that here. If we met in real life there would be instant rapport just because of that alone and you probably know what I mean - nothing quite like an African childhood. Did you ever eat a live flying termite on a dare just because the Africans did?

Subject: Stick People... Why are They Extinct? OT From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:38:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoy this totally off topic bit of naughty mirth. It's on me! Burn baby burn! Richard, feeling silly as I turn 54 today Stick People... Why are They Extinct? www.teamhouse.tni.net/stickpeople1.html

Subject: Happy Belated B-Day...gee you're old...:) From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:23:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy Birthday Richard! Hope it had better results than those stick people...oh. Yeah. You're still here...never mind... You old fart! Gawd, you look 45! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:18:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Cynthia. I think. Like my dear 95 year old dad says when I ask how he's doing: Every day I wake up is a really good day! I do feel pretty good. When I had a physical in September, I was told I had the heart of a 30 year old and the prostate of an 18 year old. Hope those guys don't miss the parts. :)

Subject: Like I said Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:47:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, You don't look 54, I was shocked when you revealed that. Jeezum crow, you must have good genes with a Dad who's 95 and a prostate that's 18. A heart that's 30. Christ, you'll be bringing in the next new millennium! Living well, as they say... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Happy Birthday Postie From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:17:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: from ex-Bin Liner.

Subject: The consequences of internal friction. From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:01:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rich: I've often wondered why we don't see them around any more. What a pity. Happy Boy Day. I wish I was still 54. Oh wait... I am! --Scott

Subject: Re: The consequences of internal friction. From: janet To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:15:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh nuts. here I thought you were going to wax philosophic on some tratise dealing with the theories of ingniting a fire in the belly, or cognitive dissonance leading to a consuming drive to rectify the imbalances, or kindling some kind of passion to illuminate the world...and all you put up was a plain old birthday well wishig. shoot. I was so ready for it... sigh. I am shocked, Richard. I didn't know you were OLDER than me! And I never knew you're a Pisces. Can I do your astrological chart? Just for interest? date, birthtime, place of birth? reply to mensabrains@webtv.net

Subject: Many happy returns, oldster:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:53:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're lookin' good . . . From: Pullaver To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy Birthday Richard. I enjoy your level-headed and down-to-earth posts. And let's face it, no long-haired hippie looked more beatific standing next to the Lord of the Universe.

Subject: Thanks, Pullaver From: Richard To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:07:07 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Well, thanks a lot Pullaver. It's good to be able to take full credit for the good words you've heaped on me and not defer them to Grace or some such foolishness. The photo was taken just after I first saw GMJ at the Montrose guru puja in 1972. Close encounters of the darshan kind. There was a sweet innocence I felt about the world then that is still part of me today. But I'm older and wiser these 30 years on with an open heart and also a descriminating mind. It was fun to play the game of devotee to the living Satguru. Too bad M perveted all that for his own wealth and self-agrandizement. As Lil Darlin' said awhile back, what might have been could have been good. He could have, say in 1976 when he told Mishler he would, come clean and led us idealistic hippies in serving humanity. But nooooooooooooo! Pullaver, drop me an email if you want to chat off forum. I keep anonymity. Montrose 64.45.46.159/photo/rrmontrose.jpg

Subject: Happy Birthday for yesterday From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:41:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: May you have many many more and thanks for the laugh. No wonder you're so silly - you're only 54, a mere baby.

Subject: Mere baby? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:16:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pat, but are you saying you are older? I'll alert the media about this shocking development.

Subject: Re: Mere baby? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:31:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm a whole year older than you, Richard, and, after 50, a year takes a big toll. I've had to stop plucking the gray hairs out of my eyebrows or else there won't be any left. I've resigned myself to bushy white eyebrows and am starting to look like Einstein. It's a shock to look in the mirror ervery morning after spending the night dreaming that I am 21.

Subject: Dreaming, PatC? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:47:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, you're not a 55 year old man with bushy white eyebrows. You're really a butterfly dreaming you're a 55 year old man with bushy white eyebrows. Feel better now?

Subject: So, you see that too? Bless you! [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:56:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PS Marjie's obituary on Chit Chat forum From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 15:27:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guru Mahamarji Now Ascended Master www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/mahamarji/marjmem.htm Richard, I thought you'd be interested since you sent me such kind condolences by email.

Subject: OH PAT!I DIDNT KNOW!!! From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:59:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh how sad.... why didnt you tell me? last week must have been some kind of acute point for pet emotions. I had another episode with Merlyn, our thousand dollar kittie. I was trying hard to put off taking her in for another surgery, since she had just topped out and reached full recovery from the one at christmas-- but she came into heat and my son let her get out one night laswt week, against strict orders not to let it happen, and then I had to agonize over whether the little darling conceived while out there. So yesterday with much trepidation, it was back to the vet for a followup exam and a discussion about her arrested size, her genetic inbreeding, her future health and survival, ending with the summary and emotional surrender of letting them take her overnight to be spayed. by the time i got back home at 5 pm, the house was way too silent. 5 other cats, and no life. Merr is the live wire of the house, and with her not there, it was like a tomb, a museum. I couldnt stand it. I called the vet, just to ask how she was, and found out to my surprise that they had just finished spaying her moments before. Same timing happened with her other surgery. How connected is that? I made myself sick last night, lying awake thinking about her. Woke up exhausted in a daze. Went back to get her this afternoon, afraid she'd be laid out like she was after the first surgery-- no at all! The kid was full of life. got out of her box in the exam room, ran around, playing chase, climbed the chair upholstry, tried to climb up the mounted photos on the walls, ducked and dodged and eluded me under the table and chair, PURRING LOUDLY THE WHOLE TIME. gee. i wish i could sport about like that after having major internal organs removed... i took the funnel collar off her after watchng her bash her fave into things repeatedly, and instead fashioned a body suit out of a stockinette bandage to keep her from touching her belly stitches--and then watched her get fouled up in the bandage and lie there, immobile, still purring but stuck. on the taxi ride home, i set her up on the seat back so she could see out the windows. she was fascinated to see so much of the world going by so fast. got home and let her out, and she tore up the stairs in her little suit, and promptly ran around checking to see if everything was the way she left it. [we cleaned for her homecoming]. I thought she would want to rest, but noooooo. ran around hyper for hours. finally sank into a nap around nine pm. but she's up again as i write this--she's lapping water out of a vase i keep in the window for looks. it's clean-sort of. she needs water, so I guess I'll wash it out and keep it filled from my bedside bottle. just so long as she drinks from somewhere. Pat, Marji's life story reminds me very much of a book by Tuesday Lobsang Rampa, the onetime tibetan monk, titled 'living with the Lama'. If you see it, buy it and read it. It never ceases to stun me what people do to animals. Merr's grandma was found in a dumpster as a kitten, in a box, with her lower jaw kicked sideways.

Subject: Lobsang Rampa From: Dermot To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:02:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He was never actually a monk....and I don't think he ever went to Tibet. He was from South London....I think he was a butcher or something like that. He wrote a series of books, including 'Living with the Lama'. His books were a mixture of fiction and outright lies. I think he did make a lot of money from his books though. When I was about 12 or 13 I used to read all his books avidly. His big thing was astral projection and his magical cats and stuff like that. When I was about 14 or 15 I discovered more about him and realised his baloney. I think he used to pop round to the British library and research all sorts of stuff about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism. He's like the English version off Carlos Casenada I guess. Or the other way round really, as 'Lobsang' was around a little before Carlos. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: Lobsang Rampa From: Addendum To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 00:50:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought he was Welsh???

Subject: Re: Lobsang Rampa From: Lobsang To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 00:47:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet you didn't know that Lobsang died fairly recently in Calgary Canada. I would have liked to have met him. Lobsang 2

Subject: Slight correction From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:43:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My memory failed me....he was from Devon not South London. Neither was he a butcher.....the son of a plumber but I don't know what he did prior to being an author. I found this little bit of info on him from the museum of hoaxes website. Cheers Dermot Tuesday Lobsang Rampa www.museumofhoaxes.com/thirdeye.html

Subject: Re: Slight correction From: Lobsang To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 00:53:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey perhaps that's where that song comes from - I've always wondered about it.. 'Goodbye groovy Tuesday - who could put a name on you...la la

Subject: Re: Slight correction From: bolly shri To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:49:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: lapsang souchang surely who said lets have a nice cup of tea, it makes everything seem much better. Sorry no thats me just going to make one now There's too much on this site for the technologically challenged but absolutely hooked ex. Thank you guys for keeping it going bolly shri

Subject: Hi bolly shri From: PatC To: bolly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 03:49:06 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: You said: ''There's too much on this site for the technologically challenged but absolutely hooked ex.'' What a nice intro you made. I'm a firm believer in charming intros but have never pulled one off yet. Welcome. Have fun. And after you get the hang of it, you won't be technologically challenged but time challenged. Also it's hard on us wpm-challenged hunt and peck typists. If you want to post something long and important (and I'm hoping you will) it's best to do it in a wordprocessor and then copy and paste it in here in case something goes wrong. Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

Subject: Thanks Dermot. Now I remember. Hoax all right [nt] From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Just when I think how cute..... From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:54:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you have to lob something horrible in there like your last sentence. I prefer not to think about it but I know you were right to mention it. All of our dogs were abused before they came to us. Marjie had actually been sexually abused by the homeless guy - enough to really screw her up emotionally. It took nearly a year to iron out her fear and loathing of being touched. It's been a long time since I heard the name Lobsang Rampa. I think I read a famous book by him when I was a kid. I'll check out the one you mentioned but I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's cross between a fairy tale and Khalil Gibran.

Subject: Re: PS Marjie's obituary From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:24:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What an amazing memorial. Marjie was so very lucky to have such good parents and playmates as you guys obviously were for her. As I shared with you by email, I also grieved when each of my two cats died last year. But the gift they left behind was a greater capacity for me to love humans. Great masters, indeed.

Subject: Now I feel guilty, Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:27:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry I mixed Marjie's memorial with your birthday thread. I thought only you would make a comment since we talked about it yesterday.

Subject: Please don't, PatC From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please don't feel guilty Pat. Sharing a thread with Marjie is my honor. Plus maybe now I can stop feeling pathetic about calling attention to my own birthday on a chat room for goodness sake. ;) Just kidding. Had to do it myself now that Birthday Goddess has retired. And I consider this forum part of my global community so why not spread the news? Thanks to everyone for all the good wishes.

Subject: I hope people don't think Marjie is Rawat From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:33:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....and start celebrating. :C) Well, I'm going to announce my own birthday too. So there. Thanks, Richard.

Subject: Marjie Rawat? Never! From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:33:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Marjie gave good darshan. Good doggie darshan. I've always said that. If anyone thinks you would lower her status as a good darshan giver by equating her with Rawat, well, they're nuts. Grieving for a lost pet is good. I lost two this year. Now I have only one cat left (for the time being) and she is adapting very well. She is so smart, loves to be the center of attention. She has a little basket of toys which she digs into for fun. Thing is, she also puts her toys away--right back into the basket. She's the smartest kitty in the universe. All your four-leggeds are fortunate to have all three of you loving them. It's more than some kids get. Don't forget that. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks, Cynthia - now you make me feel guilty From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:09:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''All your four-leggeds are fortunate to have all three of you loving them. It's more than some kids get. Don't forget that.'' I know I lavish love on dogs which would benefit disadvantaged kids more. I always wanted to adopt lots of kids but it is not a sensible option for us given society's mistrust of fags. Even working with kids is tricky given the current atmosphere.

Subject: Pat, Don't Feel Guilty... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 11:06:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Don't feel guilty for others' smallness of mind and attitude. And I wasn't implying you should be lavishing love on kids rather than dogs. People are cruel about gays. I hate that shit. But that's not what I was talking about... That tribute to Marjie made me feel very happy for her rescue and life with you guys, that's all... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Pat this is lovely From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:03:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've taken the liberty of sending it to a few friends. She was fearless, she was. Francesca

Subject: Chuck did it, Francesca From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:33:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It turned out to be a very healing thing for us. We all had a good cry and purged the sorrow. Yes, she was fearless. I guess she had faced death, disease and disaster so often that even one moment of peace and pleasure was enough for her.

Subject: Beautiful Memorial From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:17:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Pat. That was very touching. John.

Subject: Re: Beautiful Memorial From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:51:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, John. I think I finally figured out what eulogies are for. It's way of turning the grief into joy by praising the dead.

Subject: Re: Beautiful Memorial From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:32:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's true Pat......and your little doggie had a rough start but had some really good last 6 years by the sound of it. Love to love the love that loves.

Subject: Happy Birthday Richard !! From: MoleynNige To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:04:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very funny!! Lang may yer lum reek (ie long may yer chimney smoke) - but hopefully not catch fire ;)

Subject: What language pray tell? From: Richard To: MoleynNige Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:18:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks you two. Hope you're burning up yer neck o' the woods. Is Lang may yer lum reek Welsh, ancient Celt or ...?

Subject: Happy belated birthday, Postie From: Marianne To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 15:01:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy birthday, Richard. The stick people are very funny. So are you! You're a good, positive force around here. I hope you enjoyed yourself yesterday. Also, I have to agree with Pullaver's comments about your appearance in that photo next to the former Satguru. That's one of those famous ones, seen around the world. Many happy returns, Marianne

Subject: Thanks Marianne From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:00:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, with such kind words and glowing praise, I think I'll stick around. Thanks, you're a doll. As to the photo, it's what you don't see that is revealing. Just imagine how angry GMJ must have been when we held him while Bihari Singh dressed him up in Indian garb. Then we forced him to sit there while we sang arti to him in Hindi and smeared tilak on his forehead. Oh the poor man has suffered enough at the hands of us concept crazed hippies, don't you think? Postie

Subject: LOL, Richard [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:38:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Heh heh heh! From: Flitting Disculta To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:34:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy birthday Richard Darling. I'll e-mail you soon. Yer a doll! Condolences Pat, Chuck and co! What a fantastic tale! What an adorable dog! love ktd

Subject: I wish you'd stay for a while, Sweetie Darling [nt] From: PatC To: Flitting Disculta Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:40:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Children Raised In a Cult From: TV Guide To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:44:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Montel Williams is currently hosting a show devoted to children raised in cults and the henious conditions, abuses that were inflicted upon them.

Subject: Re: Children Raised In a Cult From: Scott T. To: TV Guide Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 10:04:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw that show. He only had two guests. One was a woman named 'Melody' who was raised in the Krishna cult. The other was a woman raised in a 'garage' or neighborhood cult that had only a few members. Sounds like the second one was worse, altough there was a lot of child sexual abuse in the Krishna cult. She seemed to think it was a function of the fact that they believed all sexual activity to be equally sinful. Given the power of natural sexual impulses I can see how having that sort of value set could contribute to some pretty wierd behavior. I'm just glad they didn't put anything besides sugar in the food. Or did they? --Scott

Subject: Children Raised In a Bubble - OT From: PatC To: TV Guide Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:07:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes all this cult stuff just gets to be too heavy so I watched ''Bubble Boy'' tonight. For four bucks you can rent it and have an hour and a half of the sort of mindless bliss that only an American picaresque farce can induce. Yes, of course it's silly. It's meant to be but it is at least unpredictable enough to keep you amused. A boy raised in a bubble because of immune deficiency goes on a road trip to save the girl he loves from marrrying the wrong guy. I thought, ''Oh good, I need a break from thinking about cults and all that crap.'' Well the first people he meets are a bunch of cultists on a bus - the ''Bright and Shiny People.'' The leader is played by Fabio - yes the bodice-ripper model. And it just gets weirder after that. Highly recommended for an after dinner movie especially if you've had too much wine. A bit of whacky backy also helps. Two snaps.

Subject: It's tonight From: Francesca To: TV Guide Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the link. You can look up where it is being shown in your city. It's already over here. Montel cult show www.montelshow.com/show/index.vep

Subject: Thanks for the heads up! [nt] From: Deborah To: TV Guide Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:26:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim, can you or Laurie tape this show? From: Deborah To: Deborah Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd really really like to see it. Please let me know if it's possible. cheers, deborah

Subject: Re: Jim, can you or Laurie tape this show? From: TV Guide To: Deborah Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A video and transcript are available for purchase via Montel's website.

Subject: Sorry, no, Deb -- won't be home [nt] From: Jim To: Deborah Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 21:41:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Forum Archives now up to date From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:55:24 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I've finally got the archives up to date. Please let me know if you spot any broken links. Just a few words on the archives for those who are interested. Each archive file is a snapshot of this forum. Archives are taken every few days depending on traffic here and when I remember. Archive files will always overlap - the latest thread on one archive could be the oldest thread on the next. This also means that not all posts get archived. For instance, a reply to an old thread after an archive has been run will probably not make it to the next archive as only 700 messages are kept on line. Also, I don't do any editing of the archive files, so if your post has survived the Forum Admins and Hotboards corruptions, then it will make it to the archive. A comprehensive archive search facility is not yet available. It's on my list, but in the meantime Sir Dave's search engine is still available for older archives at http://www.geocities.com/forumarchives1/search.htm, and if you can't find what you're looking for email me and I'll search the archives I have on my local drive. John.

Subject: I didn't thank you because.... From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:13:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought everybody else would and you wouldn't even notice if I didn't but since nobody did I will. Thanks.

Subject: I know everyone is grateful From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:09:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But they don't want to fill up the forum with thank yous because then I would have more posts to archive! Thanks everyone:-) John.

Subject: Thanks, JHB From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:57:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On behalf of everyone who posts or ever has posted or ever will post in the future..... THANK YOU JHB!!!!!!!!!!!!! BHOLESHRIFORUMWIZARDJOHNBRAUNKIJAIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Deluxe or Pioneer at Amaroo? From: Marge Large To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:33:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just got the following email after I promised to donate $500 (US) to Amaroo. I am so excited, From: HR (hr@ircc.com.au) To: Margelarge@email.com Subject: How to register Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:04:14 +1000 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Thank you for your support of Amaroo. Your pre-registration really helped. Your account is now in credit in US$ for the amount that you pre-paid. If you paid by cheque, your account will be in credit when the cheque is received. Please do not re-register. A Customer Service Representative will process your booking. Please advise your choice from the information below by return email or by phoning 61 7 54648 474 between 9am and 3pm Brisbane time on Saturday March 2nd and Sunday March 3rd. Your choice of package by picking one of the options below: Registration US$156 Deluxe single US$1,510 including registration Deluxe double US$1,210, including registration Pioneer single US$340, including registration Pioneer twin US$235, including registration Contribution (any amount that is a multiple of US$10) For more information about these packages please visit www.Amaroo.org Your choice of payment method: We have your payment details on record. Please advice if you wish to use an alternative payment method or a different credit card. Otherwise we will use the information from your record to charge the difference between your pre-payment and your booking. A confirmation will be sent to your email address when your request is processed. Thank you again for your support of Amaroo. It is greatly appreciated. I just can't decide because they all sound so WONDERFUL. Am I a deluxe kind of gal, or more of a pioneer gal? I bet the 'deluxe' accommodations are luxury, air-conditioned suites with private jacuzzis. But can I afford $1,510 before the $2,000 airfare, not counting food and ground transport? Well, I DO need to diet, so maybe I can go without food. Sell a kidney?

Subject: i thought about this From: janet To: Marge Large Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:27:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was pondering on a line I saw in a movie once, where some guy gives a huge donation check to some political candidate so he can get up close and get in good with the guy, get some immediate favor out of him--and than momenter you see him talking to his buddies and they're aghast that he gave the guy money--and the first guy confides crassly- 'OH, don't worry about the money. I put a stop payment on the check.' ...this set me maundering to doing something of the like to MJ. Making outlandish donations on nonexistent credit cards, writing staggering checks on old, closed accounts I still have the unused checks from, promising large payments in cash, and then sending envelopes stuffed with monopoly money...that sort of thing. jeez, but i can think cruel thoughts at times.

Subject: Re: Deluxe or Pioneer at Amaroo? From: bolly shri To: Marge Large Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 06:58:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: go on spoil yourself save on those other inessentials like houses, just look at the bargain m got on his des res and ask yourself if perhaps he has something to teach everyone about having your cake and eating everyone elses. love and happy travels bolly shri

Subject: Includes all the KoolAid you can drink;) [nt] From: Richard To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:33:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: is selling KoolAid futures [nt] From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 06:09:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Price is Right From: John Burgess To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:49:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: $235 incl Rego for 5 days expensive? Bullshit,it's good value!

Subject: No, it's TWO nights. From: Joe To: John Burgess Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:30:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the Amarscroo website, the event is TWO nights, three days as quoted: Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a three-day event at Amaroo from Friday 19th April to Sunday 21st April 2002. This event is for people who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge So, $235 apparently gets you in and lets sleep in a 'pioneer' double tent for two nights. Transportation, food, and the rest are not included. Yeah, what a great deal! And keep in mind that Aussies will end up paying TWICE that because they have to pay in US dollars. Let's see, $235 a night to share a tent for two nights in the Outback of the middle of nowhere.

Subject: The Event is Two nights silly From: Baby John again~) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:24:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lets get this straight motormouth.Extra time is allowed: We are permitted to arrive early(you can find out how early,Im not telling you!) We know it is in Yankee Dollars-basically it is $100 a night. Registration IS included in that price. The tents are well set up,the facilities are first class and it is ,contrary to the impression you are giving,a beautiful enviroment. You seem to ignore the fact that you haven't been there for a LONG time... Middle of no-where?Oh yeah,just outside Brisbane and 1 hour from the Gold Coast. THE OUTBACK? are you kidding ? The Alice ? The Kimberley's. Get over here and I'LL take you to the OUTBACK.We'll go Croc hunting.You can be the bait!())

Subject: First Class Facilities From: OTS To: Baby John again~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:08:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regarding three points you make in this thread Johnny: The tents are well set up, the facilities are first class and it is ,contrary to the impression you are giving, a beautiful environment. I would hope for a thousand and a half large the tents wouldn’t fall down in the middle of the night, so the set up of the tents I guess IS a real selling point. [Though a couple of tents did get flooded out in the middle of the night rainstorms last April.] I’ve been to First Class facilities and these are more like Third World facilities, Mr. Burgess. The swimming pool and tennis court is reserved for only one person. Sorry, don't bring a bathing suit. The rest of the attendees can just sit it out all day in the heat and wait for sunset to arrive to get some real relaxation sitting in the plastic seats of the dusty amphitheater after having baked all day out in the sun. And I mean hot. Where all day do you do nothing (unless you overwork yourself in “service”)? Not in the tents -- too friggin hot during the afternoon. Bake me! No. In the Pavilion? Maybe, but it’s still hot and if it’s raining, forget it, because you can’t really enjoy your crappy vendor-made food while being rained on, and the seating in the middle with the covering only holds so many and is louder than sitting at a racetrack. The food -- for all but 160 a night at the Functions Centre for dinner -- is really not good, served in styrofoam and plastic with terrible service and horrible layout and food lines, making you get in line after line to get different portions of your meal. First Class facilities? I don’t think so. Has EV Australia gone through every single caterer in the country yet? Possibly. The last one from April 2001 won’t be back. Didn’t make what was promised. Got mad, settled, finished up and left with a bad taste. Second Class might be a dormitory or hotel room with a small swimming hole to relax at all day in the heat or any kind of recreational facilities. Presently nonexistent. First Class would be a water park with a slide and wave pool, with an airconditioned room to nap in and rest afterward. Middle of no-where? Oh yeah, just outside Brisbane No, John, it IS in the middle of nowhere. There is one tiny shop/gas station and one little tavern for drinks and/or dinner in the entire town. Vegetarians not welcome. Yeah, it’s a beautiful environment, except you’re not allowed to go anywhere on the property except for a very few spots which are -- surprise! -- occupied with thousands of other persons there for the event looking for anything to do all day to pass the time. Not really a quiet day in the park. But yeah, it is out back. And no, it’s not “JUST OUTSIDE” Brisbane, but rather a 40 minute bus ride. The main problem is that after either working all day and night and all day and night or sitting around all day doing nothing just waiting for the highlight of the day (the sunset event), the only thing that happened there was that one falls asleep during the boring recap on breathing. And finally, Baby J, your prior post needs just a drop of editing. You said: $235 incl Rego for 5 days expensive? Bullshit, it's good value! I think it should have read: $235 incl Rego for 5 days. Expensive bullshit (it's a good value). If you like bullshit, IT IS a good value. Enjoy, my friend, but watch out for the deadly red-back spiders, will you please.

Subject: Well, OTS, your description of Amaroo From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:52:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......just convinced me to go. Yeah right! Thanks for the scoop. Sounds like Kissimee with slightly better shithouses. Fine when your twenty but not for senior citizens like me.

Subject: You Betcha! From: Baby John To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:29:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You cant be a local.Talk about a wimp!Sorry but you must have been somewhere else...

Subject: sounds like a (K) concentration camp! [nt] From: Dermot To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:50:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Get Real From: OTS To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:16:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not local, one didn't have to be Australian to have attended these events since 1992 since they were international events. In fact, I made it over for most of them. I'm sorry but I WAS THERE, Johnny Boy -- Ivory's Rock with the after hours bar and weather-beaten rangers. Ten years worth of fundraising hasn't made it a commercialy viable Conference Centre yet. Maybe they should try and raise more funds. Come on folks, give it up! I see where this year you don't have to donate US$800 in order to hire a tent and stay on site, like last April. I guess those high rollers have rolled over and aren't around to make the big donations this year. You betcha!

Subject: Ohh.......but From: John Baby To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:33:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You think? Or maybe it's as described,a regional event primarily for the locals...

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Livia To: Baby John again~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:32:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder why premies are so generally unpleasant these days. When I was a practising premie and someone tried to oppose me with reasoned debate, I don't recall using sarcasm or vitriol in my defence of Maharaji. I don't think it would have done any good, somehow. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Baby John Burgess To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh well, basically I'm a prick.But then the whole world has changed hasn't it Livia ,and as Forrest says'Stupid is as Stupid does!':P I guess the fake religious crap you guys lived by is gone Good eh?

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Livia To: Baby John Burgess Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:26:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, if qualities like kindness, honesty and sensitivity are fake religious crap, then give me fake religious crap any day. I've seen more of those qualities on Forum 7 in the last few weeks than in the last 15 years with premies (of the practising variety). But in the New Improved version of Maharaji's world it appears that anything goes. Oh well, as long as you keep on experiencing 'Self-Knowledge' then everything must be alright, hey? With regards, Livia

Subject: Fake religious crap? From: cq To: Baby John Burgess Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:11:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fake religious crap? Are you seriously claiming that M had nothing to do with peddling that crap? If so, I reckon that makes you a party to the same fraud as Maha-Iusedtobeaconartistbutdon'tletthatstopyougivingmeyourmoney-raji. Caveat emptor, folks.

Subject: Yep .. From: Baby John To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:31:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sticks in your craw eh?Me ? I'm as free as a bird

Subject: no, you're just like CatWeasel From: Tonette To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talk and act just like him. Lots of comments but with nary a shread of substance. A cult member addled by the damage it has done to your ability to reason, your thinking. Good luck John, have a nice time in Amaroo, do come back and tell us all about 'that place', your life and breath. Good luck indeed, it's about time it visited you. Tonette

Subject: Re: no, you're just like CatWeasel From: Yes ,youre right!())())())())()) To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:54:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That Catweasel he is such a rogue!())

Subject: You're just like CatWeasel. It is CW [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:57:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: WHY HE NEEDS SO MUCH MONEY??????????? From: salsa To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:01:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i detest what he does to people! robots of truth, yeah.

Subject: Can anyone break down those fees? From: Deborah To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:38:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't maharaji unofficially own Amaroo? WHat is a deluxe accomodation, anyways. And what brilliant marketing person came up with 'pioneer' package. Actually, I have to give him or her credit for that one. Anybody ever been to Amaroo who can paint a picture. If someone goes, please take pictures?

Subject: intensity in tent city From: John Macgregor To: Deborah Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 00:37:06 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Hi Deb, (And sorry for not replying to your earlier missives - overwhelmed by life.) Deliuxe, from memory, is a spacious, classy tent. They heat up to the temperature of the surface of the Sun by 10am, but they look nice - and there used to be a category above that (super deluxe?) which was a 'pop-up' a van thing the top half of which folded out into a tent. Pioneer would I imagine be a common or garden tent that sleeps two (oneself and a holiday bonk quite commonly). These tents are spread out in their thousands across various paddocks, side by side: kind of like a mobile Calcutta. (That's unkind: conditions are usually quite clean - tho you can hear everything that happens in your neighbours' tents, which is sometimes alarming.) Sorry - no pictures to be taken on the site: a long-standing rule. I guess this excludes the live security cameras which, when I was leaving, Maharaji was planning to install on every gate and crossroad. Best to you, John

Subject: Thanks for painting the picture :) [nt] From: Deborah To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:34:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Guests were allowed to take pictures From: Captain Update To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:50:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: everywhere but the Fuhrer compound. There are hundreds in circulation from last April. Mr Magoo, if you wish to continue posing as an authority on all things M and K then you must keep up with the evolution. It's called 'keeping in touch'. People out of touch are no use to anyone.

Subject: Deborah, John MacG & all: From: Crispy To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 500 US$ is an obscene highway robbery of a registration fee. I can appreciate the pitching in to cover costs of the many years of blood, sweat and tears that put the whole site together, but geez, 500 US$ just to stampede over the hill once a day for 3 days to hear some more of his arrogant jokes, sing Arti to him, and cringe during his singing . The nicest thing for me last year was the 1-hr sanity period inside the K Centre each morning, but chances of getting in got progressively slimmer each day. $500 is actually a reasonable charge for many other 3-day professional workshops; but at least you come out with a new skill a/o useful knowledge of some sorts. But have to say, the only thing I learned from last year at Amaroo is that I won't be going to another. Warning to everyone going this year: hold on to your registration receipts/confirmations. Last year my credit card was erroneously charged 410 Brit Pounds instead of US$. Last item: Last year the no-photos-onsite rule was very much slacked. People were taking shots left, right and centre. So I brought my camera in the next day, and I have some shots as a result I could attach for you, Deborah (including one of the speaker onstage). Should I dare do this or would I be facing lawsuits, defamation and such as a result? Cheers to you all, Chris

Subject: Re: Billing in GBP and Photos From: JHB To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:24:56 (EST) Email Address: brauns@apollo.lv Message: How could a credit card be accidentally billed in Sterling instead of AU or US dollars? If you want to avoid any lawsuits, send the photos to me. As an expert in Latvian, anti-cult, law, I assure you, no harm will come to you on publication:-) John.

Subject: adding some facts to the mix From: Pardon me for To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but registration is $156, not $500, and you can stay on the land for 5 days, if you want to, not 2. This is about par for the level of reportage on this board. Amaroo is one of the more gorgeous spots I've ever been to and I've traveled all over the world since I was little. Go on back to your fantasies of concentration camps, etc. if it makes you feel better. Sayonara! Pardon me For interrupting this whiny load of crap

Subject: Thanks, I stand corrected... From: Crispy To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:37:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You’re right - 156 US$ it is this year. My error for not checking the amaroo.org’s registration site, and assuming the $500 pre-payment was the actual registration fee. I also appreciate it when people get their facts straight so I promise to get mine right ‘before the fact’ next time. Therefore I will rephrase: Last year’s 410 US$ registration for 4-days, IMO, was way over-priced, for what I personally got out of it all. I remember thinking to myself coming back afterwards that it really wasn’t worth my travelling to the opposite side of the world to see. Honestly, the things I did enjoy were the morning practice sessions in the site’s K centre, an early Saturday morning walk through Brisbane’s Botanical Gardens, the afternoon of ocean kayaking at Tallebudgera Beach and Burleigh Heads, shopping for a Driza-bone coat that’s $300 cheaper there than here, and eating at a Sushi bar in Brisbane. Beautiful botanical gardens, ocean kayaking, and sushi bars are found in many other places as well on this side of the world. A nice meditation can be had right in my own home. So that leaves the great bargain on the Driza-bone coat - but then what about the $2000 airfare to go get it. I’ll release you - I think you get the gist of my sentiments? In plain language, I’m someone who is disillusioned and fallen out of love with Mj and his world, and do not want to travel to see him again, even if a sane-headed organizer has brought the insane registration fee down - that’ll be a nice break for folks going this year. (Yawn) it’s been a long day - time to hit the hay. Sincerely, ChrisP, clan motto: My mind remains unmoved.

Subject: Addendum - additional comments: From: Crispy again To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 10:39:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are some other concerns brought up in this thread on which I’d like to make a further ‘statement’, so I figure this is the place to do it. First of all, last year I always felt I was in a safe environment at Amaroo (other than the stampede that developed to animalistic proportions by the last day). I never felt I was in a concentration camp per se, although I would have appreciated feeling freer to arrive and leave at my own times of choosing, We were totally dependent on the bus shuttles’ schedule from Ipswich, as vehicle access to the site was VERY limited. We’d have to wait for the shuttle’s arrival for the return trip to Ipswich at the end of each day. From Brisbane, we relied on an approx. Aus$30/week (if I remember correctly) for the train pass from Brisbane to Ipswich (approx. 35-min. train ride); then transferred to the bus coach shuttles (80 US$/4 days), which was a 15-20 min. ride to the site further inland away from civilization. A truly get-away-from-it-all site does have its pros and cons. And BTW, access through the smartcard gates was well-guarded. The 5-day camp site package I would not personally go for, and yours truly is someone who loves camping. Once the 3-day program is over, you can bet I’d rather be heading for a coastal beach than staying on the site. Lastly, backing up to the ‘safe’ environment at Amaroo and the Jonestown comparisons. I remember as a premie laughing at the comparisons made; what an outlandish association - Jonestown! For sure, we’re not about to start drinking poison - at least not myself and the premies I know. However, I’ve seen for myself a valid comparison to the Mj-crowd dyanamics, that I remember always being there for as long as I can remember, to some degree or other. However, it crossed the line for me during one of his talks, I think it was the 2nd or 3rd evening of last year’s Amaroo event. My mother taught me REAL GOOD on how to thank hosts and express appreciation for someone else’s constructive works and helpful acts. As I had up until last year believed Mj was the master, I would dismiss his poking fun and belittling the words and actions of people around him as ‘cute/okay for him - but only for him, as the master’. When Mj jokingly referred to the poor sound connection to his mike as ‘that’s typical Aussie inefficiency for you’, the majority* of the crowd (* as if it was everyone but the Aussies ) boo’ed along with him right after. An Aussie girl next to me gasped ‘premies can be SO insensitive’ and broke down into a 10-min. sob. I was thinking, ‘yes they sure can, and from where do they get their idea it’s okay to be insensitive? From the example of a fat daddy who never grew up and learned a few manners himself’. Which leads me to the concern that blindly following an imperfect leader does (and certainly did that night) lead to letting go of one’s own decent human judgement. :( I don’t want to wait around for the time when his arrogance directly reflects on ME. And to any premies reading this, please understand I don’t mean to sound nasty or trashy towards YOU. It’s just a passionate feeling I’m exiting with. Having left, I feel great and relieved in many ways. Sayonara, ChrisP, and thanks for letting me add my 2 more lentils worth.

Subject: Re: Addendum - additional comments: From: Livia To: Crispy again Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:45:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for a passionately written testament, and how right you are. I haven't been going to see Maharaji regularly for many years now, but I remember it well, M's laughter at other people's expense, and premies joining in in a horrible sycophantic sort of way. It used to turn my stomach in an uncomfortable sort of way, and I hope to god I never EVER felt tempted to join in. I also remember the gales of laughter at what were often M's very unfunny and often cruel jokes, in exactly the way that people laugh nauseatingly when they are in the presence of a mildly amusing famous person. It's sycophantism, no more or no less, and demonstrates just how much of a personality cult it all is. Thanks again. with love, awakeningly, Livia

Subject: Sycophants: THAT'S the word! Thanks (nt) From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 22:48:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: adding some facts to the mix From: Dermot To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:27:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' (K) concentration camp' ......a play on words? You concentarte om the Knowledge techniques (as there isn't much else to do) in a tent city camp.....add to that, blistering heat in an isolated spot and hey presto! .....concentration camp!! I know, I know, it's not that clever but Icouldn't resist it.... I'm sure it isn't as bad as Belsen or anything......then again I'm glad I'm not going!! I appreciated the post by fromer aspirant.....now that makes sense to me.

Subject: Sort of From: Joe To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:36:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well sure, the registration is $156 (US) twice that, as we said, for Aussies, and where the fuck are you going to stay if you don't pay at least $256 for the crummiest tent? And if you do stay someplace else, how much more would that be, and what would the transport cost? Oh, great, you get to stay there for 5 days in a tent, that makes it a much better deal, for sure.

Subject: Simple From: Baby John To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:05:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Local motels offer an equivalant price.Transport is not problematical. Joe ,you dont have to come,so stop worrying.

Subject: Re: Sort of From: Pardon me To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:41:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You stay in a motel for $45-50 a night and transport is free, unless you're in Brisbane and you might have to pay $10. Scary, huh? ' And if you do stay someplace else, how much more would that be, and what would the transport cost?'

Subject: Re: Sort of From: Joe To: Pardon me Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:09:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, so it's cheaper to stay in a hotel than in a tent. I see. Why do the Aussies have to pay in US dollars making it twice as expensive for them? Seems highly unfair. OTS and Chris really disagree with you about how nice that place is and what the accommodations are like, but then to each his own. I just think if M really wanted to make it as easy as possible for the majority of premies, most of whom are just regular guys and gals without a lot of money, he would have those events in someplace a little more centrally located, and not in a remote corner of the world, in the Outback of Australia. As it is, it adds to the perspective that the cult is largely for the rich.

Subject: NOT THE OUTBACK! From: ())())()) More Spin())())()) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:09:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stop Spinning this story,it is just outside Brisbanes metro area.

Subject: Could have fooled me From: Former Aspirant To: ())())()) More Spin())())()) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 12:04:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It Amaroo isn't in the outback, I shudder to think what the outback is like. And speaking of spin, the Amaroo website is as about as false about what it's actually like to camp out in that hot, boring place as you could find. So, I hope you are fair in your allegations of who is 'spinning.'

Subject: Re: Could have fooled me From: Perfect one day,Sunny the next! To: Former Aspirant Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 15:56:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe it's the same for you as it is for Northern Hemisphere flora.Too hot and you just cant acclimatise. But for the locals,it's nothing unusual.

Subject: Amaroo the dry hell hole From: Former Aspirant To: Perfect one day,Sunny the next! Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 17:32:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In civilized countries they have shade, air conditioning and swimming pools, or such enclaves are located next to the ocean or lake. Amaroo, however, has none of that, or very little. I did split early and go to the coast to try to recuperate, get some halfway decent food, and get away from rabid cult members. Yes, well, the locals. I guess you can get used to anything. I'd like to see how you would do in Minnesota in January. Try it and then you might have a clue what I'm talking about.

Subject: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Marianne To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:20:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, it was heaven on earth and gorgeous and everybody got to be together without those nasty people who dared question the Master....

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Pardon me To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:28:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooooh! Booga, booga booga! You're scaring me with your in-depth anal-ysis! How prescient! How brilliant! How impotent!

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: ())SPIN()) To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:10:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should be ashamed of yourself.There is NO comparison, none whatsoever

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: PatD To: ())SPIN()) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:02:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She's just worried that it could be,that's all. You know,seeing as Rawat isn't the Lord of the Universe now,just a teacher,he could crack. It's a stressful job keeping all those students on the straight & narrow,especially when they're following the maestro's tastes in fags&booze.What can a Lord of the Universe do except to let them off the hook maya wise,if he needs their gas money to get to where they can see him in the 1st place. I can't see it myself either,not yet anyway,but just remember,if God throws the bar open,says 'the bollinger's on me tonight',you heard it here first. Wake up.

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 14:06:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To PatD, Please don't minimize the possibilities about Amaroo in comparison with Jonestown. There are chilling similarities both in cult dynamics and the isolation of a site with only followers and the master present. But, Marianne can and does speak for herself:) Cynthia

Subject: ())())())Jonestown = Bullshit Spin())())()) From: Spin Miester Foil())())())()) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 08:12:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's total frogshit.With Queenslands finest in attendance for the whole event what are you saying?The Police and Hired security will all start drinking Koolaid too? You can be a real dumb schmuck sometimes! {By the way ,it's usual in Oz to have a Police prescence at large outdoor events,so dont read anything sinister into that. Normal and civilised and so isolated that every taxi driver in Brisbane knows the place and could take you there. It's no good lying like this,you just come unstuck.....) ())

Subject: Just to Further Clarify From: OTS To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:30:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that excellent and 100% true report of the scene last April, ChrisPy. Just to clarify for your readers about your line about stampeding over the hill. That's right folks. No seat numbers. It's everyone for themselves. Run Run Run Run Run Run and hopefully get a seat somewhere not too far back. But everyone is saving so many seats that it's so frustrating. Anyway. Maybe when you're in your SEVENTIES you'll get a reserved seat up front. But don't count on it. Regarding your one-hour session in the K-Centre each day being the highlight for you. Yep, it was the only airconditioned place on the property where you could just sit and chill for an hour. But, yes, as more and more people got hip to the unbelievably wonderful controlled air and sound environment in the there, it became THE PLACE TO BE (AND BE SEEN) and overcrowded, and entrance became unruly as the days went on. I'm sure it'll be just great this year.

Subject: Amaroo is a hell hole From: Former Aspirant To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:29:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the heat, god do I remember the heat. And the dust, and the flies on the food, and the stampede to sit in the hole in the ground that was the programe venue, and the sitting around trying to get some breath of cool air. I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of that place and stop feeling like a fried egg. Yes, Amaroo, where I spent days roasting in the sun so I could sleep in a fucking tent I could not afford, in the middle of fucking nowhwere. But the worst was seeing idiot cult members line up like cattle to kiss the little fucker's feet. If I wasn't already nauseous from eating shitty pasta in the middle of the desert, I would have become that way. This is partly why I am a "former" aspirant. I got to see the cult from the inside and it isn't pretty.

Subject: aye that's right - sun roasted From: Crispy Critter To: Former Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:48:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Former aspirant: yes, the hub shop was selling the last umbrellas and brimmed sunhats like hot cakes and they always seemed to be sold out of SPF cream. And did you notice how, by the 3rd & 4th day, all the shady areas were blocked off with No Access ribbons? What you've written is also telling of typical cult deception towards new people. I wouldn't be surprised if you were never told before seeing it for youself that it's another personality-worshipping, foot-kissing cult? You're lucky to have gotten out BEFORE receiving K, former aspirant Cheers to you.

Subject: Cap d'Antibes is Hell on Earth From: Pardon me To: Former Aspirant Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:33:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the sunburn, god do I remember the sunburn...spreading slowly and insidiously like poisonous spider bites. And the skimpy bathing suits...and that horrible smell of cocoa butter. You could see way too much of everyone's protruding particulars, male and female. Yeucccch! That awful sub-human who wanted to dance with me under those ugly, ugly stars...Who's responsible for those disgusting, non-linear constellations, anyway? The rosemary chicken made we want to vomit...and the truffles! Hideously deformed people everywhere I looked and the sky was so damned clear I couldn't stand it. Worst of all, everyone but me had those stupid grins pasted on their faces as if they were having loads of fun. Couldn't they see that we were in the most god-awful Hellhole on Earth! Pascal this and Claudine that, what kinds of fucked-up names are those? Where are the Michaels and Pattys to make me feel normal? God save me from lumpy Speedos and offers of Sambuca! I'm sooo glad I saw the truth and got away from the Demonic Furnace of the Riviera to be with people who see things clearly, like I do.

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: McDuck To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 00:45:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And your delicate nature prevented you mentioning that Camp F used to be known as Camp Fuck, thus confirming the kind of extracurricular activities which took place.

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Fred Niles love child To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jesus! Mcduck you can be a real prude I suppose if you drove through the suburbs of any major city on any day of the week, NO-ONE is having sex? Get your blinkers off you Feral Hippy........

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Livia To: Fred Niles love child Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:37:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I'm no prude but somehow the idea of a tent city with audible sounds of hundreds/thousands of people fucking isn't particularly my idea of a peaceful place to sleep/meditate/muse/whatever. Regards, Livia

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Fred Niles Love Child:p To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:02:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well it isn't and wasn't like that unless you walked past John and Jenny's tent. Most people sleep and the worst noise problem is snoring. Fact

Subject: thanks D From: John Macgregor To: Fred Niles Love Child:p Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 10:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks D. That's the last time I buy you a cafe latte. Next time we meet I'll put you on chamomile tea, to calm your fevered mind.

Subject: It's Catweasel, John Mac From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:27:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said: ''I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000. But I have known you for just as long.'' Presumably he means he's known you for just as long as Roupell has. CW has said he spends time in NZ and that's where his ISP is. Don't you know anyone who lives near but spends time in NZ? Come on, John. wrack your brains and out the weasel. Of course he could be lying - as he does again and again and again.

Subject: '2000' you evil schemer From: Austin Powers To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:53:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell or the big D?Put it this way it is better left alone for all concerned Pat.We dont want to open a can of worms do we.I have a ver long memory.Very long..

Subject: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: PatC To: Austin Powers Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:30:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have one for breakfast every morning like a stuanch expremie should. They're shagadelic, baby.

Subject: Re: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: Austin Baby To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:13:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK ,but I can see this could get very freaky.For you too baby.Everyone has their skeletons hey?

Subject: Re: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: PatC To: Austin Baby Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:36:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK ,but I can see this could get very freaky.For you too baby.Everyone has their skeletons hey? --- Yes, but my skeletons aren't in a closet. They're on the CAC site for all to see. Anyway, Pussy Weasel Ji, I don't want to see your smelly old skeletons. I'm sure you dig them out occassionally and play with them but I've grown quite fond of you and don't want to spoil your fun. :P How the hell do you do those spinning heads.

Subject: Spinning heads?Like this!())())()) From: :p:p:p:p Pussssy:p:p:p:p To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:45:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ())())())())())())())()) :p

Subject: Re: thanks D From: Freds Kid To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:34:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000. But I have known you for just as long...Take it easy -- it was a Yoke Beryl

Subject: thanks again D From: John Macgregor To: Freds Kid Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:23:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000.' Depending on the whiskey intake? (-: 'But I have known you for just as long...' Same Knowledge Session indeed. 'Take it easy -- it was a Yoke Beryl' Okay, you're back on the latte - but strictly on probation. See you in town. John

Subject: Re: thanks again D From: Baby John To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:48:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John ,this is a delusion.He's a nice man and all,but me and him?Nah ,you would never confuse us...

Subject: Re: thanks D From: Marianne To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:01:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John and McDuck: You obviously are both familiar with this troll who is bothering you. We've not seen much of you of late, so I hope this latest infestation doesn't put you off again. They love to needle you and put your personal information out in public, but want to hide themselves. Yes, it certainly tells us everything we want to know about them. Fond regards, Marianne

Subject: Re: thanks D From: McDuck To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:51:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your concern, Marianne, but not to worry. I've been needled by experts with far more money and class (and lawyers) than any of the sad lurkers here. The thing is, they're not putting any personal information out in public.All the attempts at character assassination so far have been highly inaccurate, and the many people who know me will understand what tossers my and John's detractors are. There is a much bigger world beyond F7, LG, AG, MJ and the countless other abbreviations and I'm too busy enjoying that to concern myself with stingless gnats. Cheers, McDuck

Subject: Thanks for your concern, Marianne From: Captain Correction To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:26:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice to see you are in your usual ugly and vindictive mindset. That nasty troll was giving John and Mike a horrible beating wasn't it just? Too terrible isn't it. What hideous creatures they are! Thank God (sorry, thank F7) for saviours like yourself. Don't kid yourself Mr McDougalduck, no-one here knows you - but get a little too cocky and they just might get an eye opener or two

Subject: Re: Thanks for your concern, Marianne From: Baby John and Austin Baby To: Captain Correction Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Plenty in the cupboard...

Subject: You're doing the Job of an ex... From: Ddermot To: Captain Correction Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:23:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why should we bother? Anyone reading your anonymous threat to people who've given their names in public will only conclude that you're a member of a loveless, fanatical cult. What other conclusion could be drawn? That you're experiencing some incredible experience that fills you with such sweetness that life is fundamentally enhanced? Fine advert for Mr Rawat you are mate. Fine.

Subject: especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt) From: cq To: Fred Niles Love Child:p Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:13:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: -especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt)

Subject: especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt) [nt] From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:32:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL

Subject: prisoners have proven they're gullible. Now, From: The Maharaji of Malibu's To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:17:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the only question remaining is just how gullible. He must continue to push them to fork over more and more money. Let's face it the number of willing victims can do nothing but get smaller. Therefore, he must constantly find ways to increase the contributions of those still trapped. The events of 9/11 certainly haven't helped his mom n' pop cult business either as many who would still be willing to give and buy have also been affected. This plus the constant defections/escapes certainly must cause great concern for the truly realized maha of malibu.

Subject: Yachts don't come cheap (nt) From: Marge Large To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:04:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: elan vital From: big black bob To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:20:21 (EST) Email Address: valedaytmanagement@yahoo.co.uk Message: from observation, it appears elan vital are looked upon as something to be feared and revered. Why? ELAN VITAL ARE A BOOKING AGENCY offering a date for invitation to their client booking venues securing dates offering accommodation and travel details and that is just about it. elan vital are a group of individuals in an unnecessary joining as one. which is the only difference between 'them' and true undividuals. What causes them to stay so close? who knows? fear, guilt, greed, jealousy, insecurity, cult activity, totally devoted love to one another? when 'in eservice' at the estate all i herard was how much everyone hatewdf and argued with one another. And there is plenty of evidence to prove that - ie renditions of axe attacks, ashram rapes, siege situations, hangings, unexpected deaths (due to overfullness?) (oo er is it true? I dunno) The connections which that estate have are almost inexplicable - 'I don't know how they done it'! Can you sort them out please, Maharaji (master of truth and light(bible!)) sincerely sadly ps almonds, pumpkin seeds, garlic (unperfumed if need be) worm powders, malathion (derbac), flea powder (please, the aliens are risin' again) salt baths for those lovely 'wraps', pepper, jasmine (tea) (puts heaven back in the right place) poppy seeds (keeps the addictions at bay), a regular walk. Maybe a help pps if you would like to speak with me in person, please do not come to my home. Please do not park near my home - for your safety - 'happy to be angry cat' enjoys themself when they're doing their job properly. please send an e mail or write instead. although there was an invite to bring a flower on sundays for your favourite deceased victim (or maybe for your own peace)

Subject: Re: elan vital From: JHB To: big black bob Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:34:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I don't think anyone here fears or reveres Elan Vital even when they were a little larger than now. Why do you think people do? John.

Subject: Dr. Ron Geaves/Visions Propaganda From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:41:59 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: The wonderful EPO Webmaster has now put a new link on the homepage of EPO, as part of the continuing campaign to try to point out the actions and statements of people like Dr. Ron Geaves. These particular statements and participation of Dr. Geaves' were apparently done in an attempt to give legitimacy to Maharaji's attempt to rewrite history in order to protect himself from any criticism or having to take any responsbility for his actions. The new EPO entry reflects my attempts over a period of three weeks to communicate with Dr. Geaves (beginning February 12 via emails and then February 15 via mail in the UK), to get him to discuss this issue with me, which he has so far refused to do. Accordingly, we have no choice but to bring this to a public forum. I hope Dr. Geaves changes his mind and has the integrity to explain his participation in the 'Passages' video, which appears to include blatant revisionist propaganda about Maharaji and his cult. The following is now on EPO: In 2001, Visions International, the publications arm of Maharaji's organization, produced and marketed a video entitled 'Passages, a Master's Journey,' which purports to be a historical documentary on Maharaji and his mission in the West from 1971 to 2001. A number of ex-premies who have seen the video have noticed obvious inaccuracies and a revisionist slant in the story the video tells. In an attempt to raise these concerns and get a response from one of the main speakers in the video, Joe Whalen sent the following letter to Dr. Ron Geaves, a senior lecturer in Religious Studies at Chester College, UK. The letter was originally sent to Dr. Geaves' published work email address, which Dr. Geaves admitted receiving, but replied that he would not respond to it at a work email account. Since Dr. Geaves would not, even after repeated requests, provide his home email address, (although he claims to have one), the letter was then sent by paper mail to his home address. In spite of repeated reminders, Dr. Geaves failed to respond to the issues raised in the letter. The webmaster of this site then sent the letter again, inviting Dr. Geaves to respond before publishing. In spite of a reminder being sent, no responses have been received. We are publishing the letter here as the repeated attempts by Maharaji to rewrite history need to be exposed, and those who collude with Maharaji in this need to be called to account. Dr. Geaves is welcome to respond to the webmaster, and with his agreement, his response will be published here. February 15th, 2002 Dear Dr. Geaves: I hope you don’t mind this attempt to reach you by mail, but I have been unable to get your home e-mail address despite numerous attempts. I have had no luck in getting any response on this subject from Visions International or Maharaji, despite a number of emails to them. I have sent questions to Mr. Tim Gallwey who has also not responded. I would like to correspond with you regarding your comments in a video put out in 2001 by Visions International, entitled 'Passages, A Master's Journey.' I was surprised to hear some of the points made in that video, and given that you appear in the video, I wondered if you might respond to my concerns. Can you tell me if you had any role in making this video other than being one of the speakers? Just as background, I was a devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji from 1973 until 1983, and lived in his ashrams for nine of those 10 years. I held various positions in Elan Vital, including at International Headquarters in Miami Beach, Community and Ashram Coordinator in four cities in the USA and at the DECA Boeing 707 plane project. Because of my history with Maharaji, I was interested to see this video when I heard about it. The video is currently for sale to the public on the Visions website, and is described thereon as an 'historical documentary.' Obviously, no opposing views are included in the video, and as you will note from my comments, I found the video to be highly revisionist and inaccurate. Other former followers of Maharaji, and even some current followers, who have seen the video, have told me they agree. Specifically, early in the video, you state the following: Ron Geaves: [Asking Maharaji after the luxurious residence in Chelsea was no longer available and Maharaji had to stay in an ashram in North London.] Should I get everyone to move, the 15 here [at the ashram], we can turn the whole house over to you and he said no, as long as he could have one room I'm fine. And I always think about that when people sort of make these accusations that Maharaji likes the high life and stays in, you know, always for me there was this high life on one side that we couldn't afford to keep up and then there was this house where a bunch of people who loved practicing knowledge, and love Maharaji and that's where he wanted to be, he was much happier there. _________________ Dr. Geaves, isn't this comment highly misrepresentative of Maharaji's demonstrated love of the 'high life' whenever it has been available to him? I am informed, for example, that Maharaji currently owns a $(US) 7,000,000 yacht, a number of residences around the world, fleets of luxury cars, and many other material possessions representative of the 'high life,' thus making comments about that much more than mere 'accusations,' and the overwhelming evidence of Maharaji's material interests would not appear to be diminished by this story about him at age 13. I have personally seen the way he lived 18 years ago, and it was a material 'high life' that few people of my own means can even imagine. In that light, isn't this statement you make in this video bordering on intellectual dishonesty if it is used to fend off 'accusations' about Maharaji's opulent lifestyle? In addition, I doubt Maharaji ever stayed in an ashram after 1971, at least not for any length of time, and Maharaji not so much as ever set foot in any ashram I ever lived in and I never heard of him ever doing so during the time I was his devotee from 1973 until the ashrams were closed in 1983. It may be that in London in 1971 Maharaji really didn't have any other choice, but I note that a few weeks later when Maharaji was in Los Angeles, he did not request to live in an ashram, and instead remained in the upscale 'residence' the premies obtained for him. Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that Maharaji was accepting of his living conditions at that time, but clearly when he had such choices, the record is clear that Maharaji has, indeed, invariably chosen the 'high life,' and there can be no rational doubt about that being the case, the evidence being overwhelming. Perhaps it was the way the video was edited that resulted in what appear to be highly deceptive comments, or 'proof by absurd anecdote' on your part. Can you comment on this? Also, I hope you can comment on the following statements made in the same video, which I can only describe as curious if not absurd: Narrator: By the end of the 1970s Maharaji had successfully introduced knowledge to a number of countries.... But he was becoming increasingly aware of the need to separate knowledge from its Indian cultural packaging. Too many things that are simply a part of Indian culture were considered, incorrectly, by Westerners to be an integral part of what Maharaji was offering. Sandy Collier: We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, we thought that because knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things, that somehow our Western way wasn't good enough. Bobby Hendry: The mahatmas came to give knowledge and it was a way of spreading knowledge. The ashrams then, I found, were a way of disciplining yourself, your life, to practice knowledge. Unfortunately, we held on to the Indianness (sic) of it instead of the real practice of knowledge, you know, and incorporating that properly into our lives Glen Whittaker: [After telling a story about giving satsang at a Young Conservatives meeting.] ..and they asked how they could go further and I told them where the nearest ashram was and how there would be a meeting the next Friday. They went there but very few people turned up after that. The week after about three went and the week after none went, because they came across the white sari brigade. Linda Pascotto: I wasn't fascinated with the whole Indian culture. That's why when I first went to hear him speak and I saw these women wearing saris, I though oh, I don't want to wear a sari. Do I have to do that to listen to him and to be in this company and receive knowledge? Because I didn't want to do that. Ron Geaves: But Maharaji always said from the very beginning he had no intention of creating a religion and it seems to me right from day one he's resisted attempts to try and make a religion around him. It seems to me that throughout his life whenever we have attempted to build any box around him, he's always broken out of it and when he does there are those who prefer to be in the box. Narrator: For some people the changes that needed to take place were confronting. They had become attached to a lifestyle they associated with Maharaji and knowledge that was based on Indian tradition. Linda Pascotto: I had friends who lived in the ashram who stopped practicing when the ashrams closed, they felt betrayed, abandoned....(hard edit, cut off mid-sentence) Joan Apter: And it was difficult and challenging for Maharaji. I'm sure it was difficult for everyone... Tim Gallwey: He undertook the challenge to get rid of the fluff, the conceptions that might have attracted people, that in fact some people loved, more than they loved the real thing and that left people with a choice. Do I love my quote 'religion,' my 'Maharaji religion,' or do I love my actual recognition, my actual understanding of what I am seeing and experiencing. And some people said 'no, I'll take my religion, thank you very much (laughs), and some said this is real enough for me that I'm gonna stay with it. ___________________ Dr. Geaves, don't you agree that the 'sari' discussion is absurd on its face, especially when the discussion refers to 'the end of the 1970s?' Clearly, by the end of the 1970s, Western premies were not wearing saris, and, in fact, I don't believe I ever saw a Westerner wear a sari (except for Durga Ji (Marolyn Johnson) at a couple of programs and presumably this was with Maharaji's approval), in my entire time as a premie from 1973-1983. Isn't that just a bit ridiculous as an example of 'Indian culture' to which, according to this video, so many Westerners loved and were attached such that they had a difficult time parting with them as part of their 'lifestyle?' Also, taken in the context of the historical fact that Maharaji was dancing around on stages wearing Krishna garb and crowns well into the 80s, the strange theory that it was Maharaji's devotees who were 'attached' to Indian and Hindu traditions, and that Maharaji himself didn't promote them extensively, that he had to work hard to eliminate them, and that people stopped practicing knowledge because he did so, all seems a bit incomprehensible, and quite frankly, a lie. Can you comment on this as well? Your comments in the video are also used with those of Linda Pascotto, and especially Tim Gallwey, to support the proposition that when the ashrams were closed in 1983 some people so loved the ashram lifestyle that they left Maharaji as a result. Do you agree with this? Do you know of even one person for whom that was true? I have never even heard of such a person and I know quite a number of former followers of Maharaji. Do you know on what factual basis these statements were made? Moreover, this section of the video also presents an even more generalized proposition, espoused by you and more specifically by Tim Gallwey, that some people were more interested in 'the Maharaji religion' than in Maharaji or the practice of knowledge, and as a result, when Maharaji got rid of the 'religion' element, or the 'box,' as you describe it, they found they preferred the 'religion' (apparently ashrams, saris and other Indian traditions), and they stopped practicing knowledge as a result. Speaking as someone who left Maharaji around the time the ashrams were closed, and who was by no means 'attached' to that lifestyle (nor do I know anyone else who was), this simplistic generalization is not only false for the vast majority of people, it also could be seen as insulting to those people. Can you see that point of view? And one other point: given that Maharaji has never eliminated some of the most glaring 'Indian traditions' in his organization, darshan and Arti for example, isn't it a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maharaji got rid of all the Hindu trappings in the first place? As a reminder of this, I noted with amazement that an instrumental version of Arti is ironically played at the end of the Passages video. I understand that you are a lecturer in religion, and I hope coming from that perspective that you will see the problems I am having with the historical inaccuracy in this video in which you appear. Without some other explanation provided, it appears that Maharaji and his organizations, as well as a number of followers such as yourself, have engaged in revisionism in order to explain away actual historical events, and to deflect criticisms people have of him. I hope that is not the case. I look forward to your comments. Please feel free to respond to the above address or email me at kevjo@mindspring.com. Thank you, Joe Whalen San Francisco, CA, USA Ex-premie.org www.ex-premie.org

Subject: EPO Policy on Targetting Premies From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:28:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some time, my personal view is that we should avoid targetting premies, as they are where we were. I included prominent premies in this, as we would all have liked to be closer to Maharaji had we been given the chance. But it's clear that Maharaji is only able to maintain his facade with the help of those around him, those who help him hide his behaviour, and those who help him in his attempts to rewrite the past. Consequently, where appropriate, EPO will in future highlight the contribution that prominent premies make to Maharaji's 'work'. Before doing so, however, reasonable attempts will be made to contact the person in question, and ask them to comment on their involvement with Maharaji. Only when such attempts at communication have failed will we publish. This was the case with Dr. Geaves. Had he not replied to Joe's email, it could be argued that he had not received it, that we had the wrong address, or he was away from his work. But the tone of his response, and his subsequent silence, indicates his unwillingness to discuss the issues. Let us hope that publishing the letter will encourage him to debate. John.

Subject: Communications with Dr. Ron Geaves From: Joe To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:35:38 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Thanks to John for stating the EPO policy on this. As John mentioned, on February 12, I emailed the above letter to Dr. Ron Geaves at the email address he has on his 'CASAS' website. The same day, I got the following response from Dr. Geaves: I do not respond to e-mails sent to my workplace unless they are concerned with my work. Please send to my home e-mail number. This will be my last communication from this e-mail address warm regards Ron Geaves Note that Dr. Geaves refused to respond from that email address, despite the fact that it is published on the internet, and further that he said I should send the letter to his home email address, but note, curiously, that he did not give it to me. I then made a number of requests to Dr. Geaves, as well as other attempts to find the address to his home email account, which were all unsuccessful. At that point, a very accommodating ex-premie in the UK located Dr. Geaves' home address and mailed a hard copy of my letter to him in the UK on February 15, 2002 via British Post. This, in addition to John's further attempts to get him to respond, makes it appear that Dr. Geaves decided to stonewall me, and by implication, all ex-premies and anyone else with criticisms of the video, just like Tim Gallwey, Visions and Maharaji did.

Subject: Not related to his work???? From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:07:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the University of Manchester, Centre for Applied South Asian Studies (Casas), website (linked), Dr. Geaves forthcoming publications include:- Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge If these are related to his work then comments on the history of Maharaji over the last 30 years certainly are. I cannot see how he can defend his actions here apart from coming clean. John Casas www.art.man.ac.uk/CASAS/personalpages/geaves.htm

Subject: scholarship? From: Abi To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:22:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A colleague of mine who works in his area is in the process of writing an academic paper with me about Elan Vital. I think I might call it 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: An Exploration of Cult Sexual Abuse'. And how ironic that the Salt Lake City conference is about the 'freedom of conscience'. Where is HIS I wonder??

Subject: There's the smoking gun, John From: Francesca :~) To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:19:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can the substance of this thread -- Geaves' response to Joe, the lack of a recourse (i.e. no home address or phone provided) the mailing of a hard copy of Joe's letter to Geaves' home, and the subject of Geaves' upcoming papers showing that Joe's request IS related to Geaves' -- also be added to what is posted on EPO? Perhaps Joe could help write it up. I think Geaves' upcoming papers is a smoking gun. His work is his Lord so how can he blow Joe off like that. It is personal AND professional. Of course, it's up to you. You may want to wait and see if Geaves responds. Francesca

Subject: Re: Not related to his work???? From: Joe To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:28:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True. He does deal with Maharaji both on a 'professional' and a 'personal' basis. I note that those particular papers you quoted are dated in the future (April and June of this year). I trust he will make those papers also available to us. Also, is anybody going to be in Salt Lake city in June? I think it's clear what Dr. Ron is attempting to do in regard to us, and some would call it 'hiding in the bushes.' :)

Subject: Getting A Response From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:23:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, thanks to you again for writing and sending this well-written letter to Dr. Geaves regarding his role in the revisionist propaganda being churned out by m/ev. You might want to consider copying a letter to the Dean of Religious Studies at Manchester University and the Chancellor of the University, considering the fact that your objections are indeed work-related and Dr. Geaves seems to be voluntarily evading responding to you as well as engaging in intellectual dishonesty. There ought to be a professorial equivalent to the hippocratic oath.

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Loaf To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is very interesting to think of the potential repercussions for a lecturer in the University to be perceived to be actively peddling cult propoganda. But knowing the British education system and the 'anything for a quiet life' philosophy of lecturers at small faculties who publish as many articles as possible for financial gain, to fulfill a Universities research profile and to improve their lecturer status - it would seem that Mr Ron is carving a career out for himself as avidly as he possibly can. And who is to blame him ? But without pressure to act, he will brush this letter under the carpet.

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Suzanne To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what will happen when the search engines for 'Ron Geaves' start picking up EPO along with Ron's lists of scholarly publications, and Chester College? Will that provide any pressure?

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Loaf To: Suzanne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it would... if his students start searching for him... Hmmm

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: opie To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:09:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it would... if his students start searching for him... Hmmm Or die in the wool premies still trying to make sense out of the Passages Video. :) The letter to Dr Ron now taking the 10th spot on Google - and climbing fast (using just search items of 'ron geaves') OP

Subject: Amazing transformation of Deputy Dog From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:06:13 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hello everyone. While reading the forum today, I noticed a post from Deputy Dog stating that he is now a 'spiritual ex'. DD's post actually has great significance, so I wanted to comment upon it. I've been around here for 3 years now. Since I first arrived, DD was one of the most consistent premie contributors to the forum. He took loads of crap from many of us -- especially Jim -- but kept rearing his head to talk once again. It turned out that DD and Jim had known each other for years as premies, and actually seemed to display a certain begrudging affection for each other in their dueling posts. I was often surprised that DD would return to debate with us, because his apologist posts guaranteed that someone was going to get angry and let fly a ton of bricks at him. But DD gradually became concerned and disturbed about EV and M's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo issue. I guess it just went downhill from there. We've learned that several EV monitors left the cult as a result of reading the forum. Shining the light on the dark corners of the cult, M and those around him allows premies to make an informed choice about the direction of their lives. DD is but one recent example. DD, I suspect you don't want to be held out as a poster boy for the forum. I just want to extend my best wishes to you for the courage you have shown by making this choice, and telling us about it. I really do hope, when you have some emotional distance from all of this, that you post a Journey. We will all learn from it. Marianne

Subject: Bullshit! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:26:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I completely resent the accusation that Dog took 'loads of crap' from us, especially me. And I also think Dog's 'exness' is as meaningful as his 'premieness' when it comes right down to it. You'd have to know the guy to know what I mean. Ask Pullaver.

Subject: Re: Dogshit! From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:37:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well if nothing else, Dog and ChrisP are coming over here on Saturday nite to quaff a few ale and watch the Passages Video (not the Atlanta training video that I thought ChrisP had). Over the phone it sounded like dear ol' dog had indeed removed his master's leash - turns out it wasn't a leash at all but one of those nifty 'convertable' jackets - but anyway he did try one more time to sell me on the Landmark Forum, so I might have to get out my doggy pooper scooper. I'll report back after the hangover.

Subject: How dare they! From: PeeWee Herman To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:34:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree.That is really harsh.I mean Jim has always been the milk of human kindness ,the font of generosity and the source of all wisdom.To suggest that he has actually thrown crap in anyones direction ,well God Marrianne ,I am totally flabbergasted!

Subject: Re: Bullshit! From: Marianne To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:43:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Loads of crap' is a term of art. Jeez Jim, I thought my post made it clear you guys were friends. He said he's an ex. I take it at face value. Marianne

Subject: Re: Bullshit! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:50:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, Dog doesn't use words the way you and I might. Ask him what he means but if it's anything like what he meant, say a week or so ago, he's pretty much where he's been for a while now. To his credit, it's not the same place he started when he posted here but it's a far cry from truly having walked. Are we friends, Dog and I? Yeah, sure, to some extent. I miss the guy's wry sense of humour which was always good for a laugh at the back of the satsang hall. He's a decent guy who loves his family. That's saying a lot. But he also drives me nuts in this particular medium where we actually try to make sense with one another. Dog's more prone to preach than to reason. Here at least.

Subject: Jim, I've walked [nt] From: Deputy Dog To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Walked, yes, but how far? From: Jim To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:47:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad you see it that way, Dog. I'm just curious, though, what do you think Knolwedge is? What's a Master? That kind of stuff. Not that you have to answer to me, of course. But, if we are going to talk about it, that's what I'd want to know. Walked, yes, but how far?

Subject: Re: Walked, yes, but how far? From: Deputy Dog To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:46:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Slowly but surely I came to believe the stories about Maharaji on EPO. This resulted in my gradually starting to lose respect for him. I then began having difficulty reconciling the beautiful experiences I had in meditation with the man in the video, telling me how to live my life. The cognitive dissonance created by this conflict became so intense that it actually started to affect my health. And, to make a long story short, the whole process eventually came to a boiling point. In recent years Maharaji has said, “If you like it, fine. If you don’t like it, walk.” A day or so ago, I suddenly became aware that I don’t like it. So I walked. To those who choose to continue following Maharaji, I wish you well. I can’t any more. IMO Knowledge is just four meditation techniques and a Master is a teacher. Maharaji has nothing more to teach me. Does that answer your questions counsellor?

Subject: Good one ......... From: Jim To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:54:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, That's great and I truly am happy for you. Honestly.

Subject: Well said Deputy Dog From: Richard To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:41:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your story verbatim could also be my story, the story of many forum regulars and many, many others we may never hear from. All the best on your path as it takes another turn. I hope to hear more of your progress.

Subject: Enjoying the walk? From: JohnT To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:36:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: IMO Knowledge is just four meditation techniques and a Master is a teacher. Maharaji has nothing more to teach me. One of the things that shocked me about the man Rawat purporting to be a meditation teacher is his 'one size fits all' approach. Not everyone is physiologically able to do the nectar technique, but I do not think the Rat has ever modified his, uh, teachings to reflect this fact. In my view, a guy who does not acknowlege that people are different -- cannot even understand that not all tongues can do that -- well, he's no teacher. A poseur, perhaps. But teacher? Nope. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: A premie's answer to JohnT From: Jethro To: JohnT Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:05:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You see John, anyone who understands that nectar only comes through the grace of maharaji knows that it doesn't matter if you can get your tongue back or not. That goes for all the other techiques too. (Deaf, blind, without hands etc). THAT is the answer I would haver given you when I was a premie. Now that 'grace' and magic are no longer in vogue, I wonder how a premie would answer your question. bye for now Jethro

Subject: Now I've seen the light From: JohnT To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:40:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The trouble is that if you believe something nonsensical, then no amount of sense can shift it. As for Rawat's ineptitude as an instructor, I think your contemporary on-message premie says the feeling is what matters, and you can get that by worshipping (oops, I mean loving) the Fat Rat. Yeuch! But I've seen the light, Jethro, I really have. I was lying abed flat on my back, very relaxed and almost asleep when there it was -- large golden glowing bright. I felt no emotional affect, only a sort of mild interest. I've heard the divine music too, but perhaps that was something I ate. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: Re: Now I've seen the light From: Jethro To: JohnT Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:59:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'when there it was -- large golden glowing bright. I felt no emotional affect, only a sort of mild interest. I've heard the divine music too, but perhaps that was something I ate. ' Well I've met many people who have seen light and heard music etc. But, as a premie, I knew that the light they see is only the (false)light of mind. Only maharaji can reveal the true light and the true joy. Know warrimean??

Subject: Good for you, Dog From: Deborah To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:59:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't let Jim pee on your hydrant. I did think his rebuttal about walking 'how far' was funny, though. After a couple of two-fours with those hausers this weekend, I'll bet you'll be asking What Forum? cheers, deborah, who hopes you all get a chance to visit the botanical city of Victoria some time soon p.s. Jim, I didn't know you knew Dog. When you discover this?

Subject: Congrats, Dog! [nt] From: Francesca To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:29:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Congratulations & Celebrations! [nt] From: JohnT To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 09:16:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good! From: Silvia To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:38:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it's true, it makes me very glad, honestly Dog. I saw you here for two years claming everybody needs a guru. Cheers! ())

Subject: And, I for one am glad you have, Pooch From: PatC To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 02:59:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know I don't like a lot of your spiritual stuff mostly because it isn't innovative but merely rehashes old stuff which we all know because we were all premies who thought just like you once. I also think talking too subjectively does not suit the forum and gives cult apologists a foot in the door to introduce their particular brand of fuzzy language - Maharajism. But neither do I expect you to think like me. I don't care one jot that we disagree as long as we agree on one thing and that is that we have both gotten out from under the stifling influence of Rev Rawat and are thinking more and more for ourselves everyday. I also think that Jim does feel concern for you. To me he is a very good sounding board for my untested ideas. If I don't succeed in communicating with him then I know that I'm not making myself clear as he's s stickler for clear thinking and good writing. I wish you well.

Subject: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:54:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yesterday, for this forum, and for the other Hotboards forum, all the posts appeared as unread. Does anyone know how marking posts as read works, and was this something I did, or something Hotboards did? The last time this happened was when Hotboards was down, so I assume then it was something they did. Did this happen to everyone else yesterday? John.

Subject: I wondered why From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't seen the change and then I've just logged on a few minutes ago (2-10 pm GMT) and all the Hotboards forums have the visited links removed. Why 24 hours after it happened to you, I wonder? And indeed, how?

Subject: Re: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 08:25:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, the same thing has just happened on my computer - I just came here for the first time since Sunday and all the posts are blue again. Thought it was my computer playing up but it must be Hotboards. Cheers Livia

Subject: Re: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:12:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, all previously read posts appeared as unread. Hotboards probably reloaded the cache containing the previous 24 hours data. It occured on Chatroom and LG too. Either that or our computers' caches had their memories wiped clean coincidentally. Great computers process alike.

Subject: Miami Community Newsletter From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:58:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: Miami Community Newsletter Date: 2/26/2002 12:25:06 PM Eastern Standard Time From:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net (InfoFlorida) Reply-to:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net To:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net File: winmail.dat (2972 bytes) DL Time (57600 bps): < 1 minute Miami Community Newsletter Elan Vital transition This letter is to let you know of transitions which are underway in Miami regarding Elan Vital transition. In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. As a result, contributions to the local account will no longer be tax deductible. Opportunities to come together locally and listen to Maharaji’s message will continue occasionally at different locations. It is hoped, therefore, that those who wish to support local efforts will continue to contribute with the same enthusiasm that has allowed people in Miami area to enjoy Maharaji’s message. For instance, financial resources will continue to be used for the rental of hotels or other meeting spaces, as often as finances permit. A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions. It is a strong statement of many of us keep interest in keeping current with Maharaji. During this time, many of us have enjoyed the pleasure of participating in Maharaji’s efforts to make Knowledge available, as well as enjoying his inspiration. It is our hope that these pleasures will continue throughout 2002, and for the rest of our lives. Amaroo 2002 Information Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a three-day event at Amaroo from Friday 19th April to Sunday 21st April 2002. This event is for people who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. This is a regional event with an Australian, New Zealand and Pacific focus. International guests are warmly invited to attend. The information pack will be available on the 22nd February. The pre-payment option that has been open for the past few weeks will close on 22nd February.  Thank you for the wonderful support for this initiative. Event and accommodation registration will open for Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Taiwan, Fiji, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Tahiti and Thailand on the 1st March. For people from other countries registration will open on the 16th March. Registration will close on the 31st March. Keep in touch on www.amaroo.org for updates and information on the event. At that site, you will find all the information you need concerning the event. All registration will be via the internet. Miami Communications Team      Info Miami infoevsofl@earthlink.net

Subject: Spreading Knowledge? From: Livia To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:26:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, what happened to Maharaji's agya from Shri Hans Ji to spread the Knowledge to the world? Funny way of going about it....

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:44:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, what happened to Maharaji's agya from Shri Hans Ji to spread the Knowledge to the world? Funny way of going about it.... Livia Judging from the various ramblings from Charanand and Yoram over the last few months there is a sense that M feels that he has achieved and completed this 'agya'. The thinking is that he has given the opportunity for all peoples, via their thirst blah blah, to receive K by him having been to over 80 countries (or whatever number was quoted). Pure revisionism of course but this does seem to be the line that is being pushed out to the PWK 'community'. It goes wihout saying that the PWKs are falling in line with this new understanding. It helps enormously in dealing with all the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing. I bet a similar line will be taken in the upcoming TV spectacular spoken about previously. It makes a mockery of our previous understanding that all peoples WILL receive K and neatly sidesteps the question of China where over one third of the worlds population resides. But who cares about facts huh? Its all in the heart and breath man! love - Opie

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: OTS To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:26:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do these numbers add up to spinning the fact that M has successfully informed the world about K? 4,500 attend each of the largest events in 2001 with M at Miami Beach, Florida, USA & Amaroo, Queensland, Australia. (source: Life's Great website) 6.4 million people in the U.S. watch the Glutton Bowl on Fox TV (on against Feb. 3, 2002 SuperBowl) in which contestants ate sticks of butter and jars of mayonaise. (source: 2/26/02 Nielsen Ratings report)

Subject: He already said he did it... From: Cynthia To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:25:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a couple-three years ago in a live satellite feed from god knows where. Maharaji said, (paraphrased)...now that I've brought k to the entire world, it's time for phase II...(which I assume is time for him) Heard it with my own ears...and it was live.

Subject: Very True From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:43:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, OTS, great illustration. It was in the Atlanta Training video that I saw Maharaji for the first time admit that propagation has gone down the toilet at least in America. Of course, this he blamed on the Mahatmas and the premies who have so many 'concepts.' Being the utter incompetent he of course provided not on shred of instruction as to how to correct this terrible problem, except to scare the premies even more into being afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: Opie To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:38:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant analysis OTS - LOL We were discussing the Mormons over lunch today and, apparantly, they believe only 144,000 of them can ever make it to Heaven. So they all better be real good to have a fighting chance of squeezing past those pearly gates. Perhaps Marahaji is also trying to create such exclusivity? If so then he must be considered a great success. 4,500 huh?! :) Opie

Subject: Hilarious! [nt] From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:06:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The techniques of Self Knowledge From: Emily Litella To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:34:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's all this talk about 'Self-knowledge'....I remember it being called the 'Divine Knowledge', hmmmmm.....little too strong a word for the new millenium crowd? eh? Toned it down a bit I see....Self Knowledge...hmmm...getting to know about ones self.....C'mon maharaji, show some balls....show folks you have a backbone.....call it like it is...like it always was...'Divine Knowledge'...'Seeing, Hearing, Tasting GOD'...That's what it was called when we received it, not 'Self-Knowledge'...that's some sort of New-aged schtick...something you expect to see a guest on Oprah talking about....You keep adjusting things to satisfy your critics and you'll lose your loyal following (whats left, that is). In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. Oh.....nevermind.

Subject: It's been said here before From: Richard To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:00:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its been predicted by myself and others that Elan Vital would be flushed and M would emerge as a hero for having gotten rid of that bad, bad organization. After all, most PWKs who will even admit to there being something wrong will say it's EV's fault. M is never the one at fault. By getting rid of that horrible old organization, M takes all the credit for fixing things but none of the blame for it having gotten so bad. On a personal note, I sincerely hope all those loyal EV people land on their feet. It's tough to give your heart and soul only to have the rug pulled out. I know some of them as friends and wish them all well.

Subject: Richard, land of their feet where? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:05:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I've been pondering this downsizing thing. Will m get rid of the non-profit status? Do the PAMs have something similar to golden parachutes? That certainly would land them on their feet financially, anyway. I've been pondering this new revision of the old DLM. It will be interesting to see what 'evolves.' Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: land on their feet where? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:28:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No golden baragons, I'm afraid, but hopefully this will open up new unforseen opportunities for the EV retirees. When I moved to Miami from a disbanded DLM IHQ in 1979, I had hopes of being as involved with DECA as I had been at headquarters in Denver. Because I was not married to the woman I was living with (i.e. living in sin.), the door was closed to my involvement. This was part of DECA encouraging divorce for anyone wanting to really dedicate. I ended up working waiter jobs and did picture framing at Aberbach's on Miami Beach for premies and other similar groups like Mhuktananda and Krishna. I eventually got back into graphic design and built a business that I still do today. Bought a house and got two cats in '83, got married in '84 and made friends that had never heard of M. You know, just like normal folks. Having the door to M's world closed to me allowed other doors to open. Those doors led to freedom. One must eventually realize that life goes on beyond M's world.

Subject: Re: land on their feet where? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:36:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, good then. I hope those who are part of the big lay-off can find something to do that is not m related. It's good to have friends who are not premies, nor have ever been, too. I just hope there aren't a lot of 'off-shoots' of meditation-team training types. We have enough of those around, IMO. Same thing happened to me. I got married, worked toward a career which wasn't exactly what I wanted, but proved profitable and taught me a lot about living in the real world with regular people. Just regular folks. That is what I like...

Subject: So EV is 'downsizing,' hmmm? From: Gregg To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:54:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me of another 'downsizing' in the name of 'efficiency' in Denver and other cities, this one years and years ago, by another seventies cult - this one a political cult: the Socialist Workers' Party (SWP). They still sell their paper (Socialist Worker) at demonstrations. Their fate is EV's: a dwindling to a very small group of hardcore believers. EV's future is not quite as predictable as all that, though, because everything rests on the whims of one man, Prem Pal Rawat. Of course, since his whims basically run in the direction of not rocking the boat in order that all his materialistic whims be perpetually satisfied, I think we'll see the cult last at least as long as Prem Pal lives. And maybe longer, as some have speculated here, under the direction of what's her name? Wali? Wabi? I dunno...she was after my time.

Subject: Hi Gregg --OT From: Marianne To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:43:35 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hey there Gregg! How's the Rockies this time of year? I've misplaced your email address. Got some news for you. Much love, Marianne

Subject: This reminds me of the 80s but From: Jean-Michel To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:21:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The situation is a bit different now. EV was/is already non-existent, no members, no legal entities. What's going to be left ?

Subject: Re: This reminds me of the 80s but From: Betchya To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:59:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No one to sue.

Subject: A bit like the 80s From: Joe To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:18:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Up until the early 80s all the local communities in the USA were just branch offices of Elan Vital. In around 1981 that changes, and all the local associations stopped being officially Elan Vital and got their own names. We were told to make them innocuous. I remember Miami became the 'Palm Coast Association' and San Francisco became the 'Bay Area Community Association.' (I personally thought that one up, and got a fictitious name reserved, etc., and was very pleased at how utterly meaningless it was.) Anyhow, many of those names stayed around for a long time. I guess at some point there were a few 'offical' Elan Vital branches in the cities mentioned (Denver and Miami being obvious ones because those were headquarters cities at certain times). It appears those communities were able to use the tax excempt status of EV to take deductions on donations used locally. Well, I guess all the EV entities are now disappearing. I'm sure all the staff has been laid off. This is a money thing, and not much else, IMO. What will be left? Visions to sell videos and divine trinkets and to make propaganda material, that will also be money-makers as premies and aspirants will have to pay for them, and to do whatever satellite transmissions there are, and which Maharaji can also make money from. That's about it, I guess.

Subject: A Brave New World Order From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:21:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I guess you guys haven't got it yet. In this high tech era of auto-Knowledge - the Knowledge CD ROM; satellite transmissions of the Speaker; and the Speaker's auto-designed interactive Website, there is no need for hierarchical organizations. We're talking Digital Dada here people. CyberMeister. Big-Brother-Borg. All systems are henceforth on-line, no need to ever leave the comfort of your entertainment center again. You need inspiration - dial-up the web-site. You want to listen and watch the Master - turn on the tube. You wanna donate - you just digitally transfer funds from your account. It's so easy. It's just you and your digital interface.

Subject: So most of the human race are excluded then? From: JHB To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:20:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those without the technology clearly do not require true inner peace that comes from self-knowledge in Maharaji's cowardly new world. John.

Subject: Re: So most of the human race are excluded then? From: Pullaver ZX3000 To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:46:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, those without the technology have no money and therefore are of no use to CyberMeister.

Subject: just wants to run a little MOM & POP cult [nt] From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:02:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Now is a bussiness? From: salsa To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:51:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. As a result, contributions to the local account will no longer be tax deductible. Very interesting. A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions. CLEARLY, ANOTHER CULT LEADER GETTING RICHER AND RICHER EVERY DAY. ALWAYS A NEW SCAM, A NEW LOOP.... THE GREEDY BASTARD. I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

Subject: Re: Miami Community Newsletter From: WMary To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....financial resources will continue to be used for the rental of hotels or other meeting spaces,as often as finances permit. read:rental of hotels, meeting spaces, yacht, Gulfstream V costs... as finances permit A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions read:a new method is being devised to launder cash contrubutions from you premies to maintain the above mentioned items. Come on premies, especially you lurkers, WAKE UP, smell the coffee. The ship (Elan Vital) has had a little leak (EPO, F7) and every attempt to patch the leak (CAC, Hack) has not been effective. The bilge pumps (Invite-only Events, Videos-especially 'Passages') no longer work, not everyone is buying it, too transparent. She's listing heavily to the starboard side. Time to bale out (pun intended); Downsize. Circle the wagons. Protect the queen (king) bee. Hold your breath. 'Hey Noah!' 'What?' 'How long can you tread water?'

Subject: Good work, Sulla From: Francesca :~) To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:30:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This goes along with some stuff I have heard through the grapevine. Thanks, F

Subject: Got tosue before he runs away with all the money! From: Sulla To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:45:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I need some of it!!!

Subject: Question: What do you do From: Pullaver To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 22:23:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when your last international event at Amaroo was a numbers disaster? You follow up with a 'regional program' and allow other regions to attend, space permitting (hardehardehardwar). Yet another scamarama to create: a] a false sense of exclusivity; b] a false sense of clamouring to get in; c] a new opportunity to charge exorbitant prices because of a manufactured a] and b]. Oh well, the more Maharaji's world changes the more it remains the same.

Subject: M just changes the name of the scam From: salsa To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:11:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but never the mechanism of scamming: DUO; Divine Light Mission; Elan Vital, now he is going to give the scam main headquarter another name! It always fun to watch. Who and what can stop him? ())

Subject: Re: dwindling From: Beverly To: salsa Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:19:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am surprised no one has mentioned the 'dwindling' tv broadcasts yet. An e-mail arrived for my partner saying Thursday's broadcast will end and Sundays will be at 5pm and yadda yadda yadda...somehow I am sure ev folks (the 4 left) will add the positive 'we are growing - send us your money' spin to this. I smile smuggly as I see the empire begin to fade.

Subject: Are there any good religions? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:10:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is kind of On Topic but I posted it in the Sat Chit Chatroom because it was a response to John T over there. If you like arguing about religion come over and add your two-cents worth. I'm hoping for a good fight which I miss now that they are verboten over here and religion is a sure bet for a barny. Are there any good religions? 66.37.7.139/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=12278.600382174856

Subject: Yes! Hinduism and Islam From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They just have to sort things out a bit. The west has a long MATERIAL leg but .... www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/01/india.train/index.html

Subject: PS India is much more enlightened than West From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:53:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean poor Maharaji has to live in a 25 million dollar hovel on a hill in Malibu which does not even have an outhouse. He has to shit in a field unless he doesn't mind messing up the gold-plated toilets.

Subject: Hinduism is winning. Score 158 to 58 From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:41:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Muslims killed only 58 Hindu infidels but the latter have scored 158 dead Muslims sofar. The Hindu Infidels are a much better team.

Subject: Sorry, I meant Judaism and Islam From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shalom, Salam ... so long as we all understand each other. That's why they call it the Holy Land www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/01/mideast/index.html

Subject: Damn! Imeant Christianity From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I keep getting confused here God Bless the Child ... sg.news.yahoo.com/020227/1/2jv1q.html

Subject: Re: Damn! Imeant Christianity From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:18:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if the pope allowed condoms he might lessen the abortion problem as well as AIDS in Africa. But a more pertinent Christian problem is Protestantism vs Catholicism in Northern Ireland. What's the score there? I mean, how many dead on either side? But this and the Holey Land problem probably belong on the Chit Chat forum. It's politics isn't it?

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: bolly shri To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:35:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: today is womens world day of prayer and lots of people do that especially people like my friend k who came to england and while she wasn't looking the western powers mascerated her home town of bagdad today mr blair has just agreed with w they need another seeing to. i don't know if there are any good religions but there are good people thanklike k who pray because theres fuck all left to hang onto if you have a similarly directed hobby include her in your 'prayers' thanks bolly shri

Subject: In a word, 'no'... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:12:37 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ...if that religion requires either belief in 'facts' or phenomena for which there is no evidence. All religions, surely by definition, carry that requirement: if they do not involve blind faith, they would more appropriately be regarded as philosophies or sciences. So my point-blank answer is: 'There are no good religions'. Whether or not religious people or movements can do good is a different question, and its answer obviously 'Yes'. But then you have to factor in September 11, the crusades, Waco, Jonestown etc. As I see it, you can't allow any religion to claim a causal role in whatever good is carried out in it's name whilst washing its hands of the evil that is similarly done. So here's two follow-up questions: can anybody think of a single humanitarian or altruistic act which can only come about because of a person's religious beliefs? - or an act of evil which could only be, or has only ever been performed by atheists? Probably the biggest success any religion could claim would lie in its providing a comforting world-view with its promises of a hereafter. Good? - Hmm, it possibly feels good, but at what price? Many say 'K' make them feel good, but we all know the costs of wandering into M's fairytale world. Nah... a pox on all your temples, I say!

Subject: I think religions have been good From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:47:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the evolution of human society, although religions have clearly been behind terrible behaviour, they have also created a social structure, and established ethical behaviour where otherwise our level of intellectual development may not have provided reasons to behave well. For instance, we can now come up with lots of very good reasons to obey the commanment 'thou shalt not kill', but for a primitive human who can gain some personal advantage by killing his neighbour, the obvious response to this commandment without the force of religious belief would be 'Why not?'. I think we're getting to the point of growing out of religions. Another thousand years should do it:) John.

Subject: The Spanish Inquisition continues From: Lesley To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:15:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I really don't think there is any evidence that religions have stopped people killing eachother, quite the reverse. It seems to me that apart from immediate practical reasons why a person might decide not to kill someone, the only other thing that might stop them is their conscience. Their conscience will tell them that the act will create a lot of bad feeling. And religions have a remarkable way of coopting people's consciences. As Joe states, when people group together, bigger things will be accomplished, and some of the biggest religions have the bloodiest records Which rather highlights my point: when people group together, honesty is the best policy, and religions are not exactly honest are they. Priests don't get into the pulpit and start a prayer with 'If we are right in our theory that there is a benign compassionate creator, I hope you can hear what I am about to say' Noooo, they start 'Dear God'. And off we go again.

Subject: 2 follow up questions From: PatD To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:20:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So here's two follow-up questions: can anybody think of a single humanitarian or altruistic act which can only come about because of a person's religious beliefs? Mother Theresa. or an act of evil which could only be, or has only ever been performed by atheists? Lenin/Stalin/Hitler. Sorry to muddy the waters,but I'm against the atheist religion too.

Subject: Re: 2 follow up questions From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:36:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to sully your view of Mother Theresa but I don't think she was quite as whiter than white as all that. Apparently some the centres she ran were filthy - way filthier than other centres of their type. And she was rigidly anti-contraception in her views, which meant that she was opposed to contraceptive advice which could have truly helped some of the people under her auspices. Her adherence was probably more to a rigid sort of Catholicism than a genuine and unbiased love of humankind. I know it's a sort of heresy to criticise her, but I never got a particularly good feeling about the woman. Love, Livia

Subject: Christopher Hitchens From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:18:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's got a great book on Mother Theresa, which I haven't read, but I understand it really chops her down to her true size.

Subject: Re: 2 follow up questions From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:13:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah,you're probably right...there goes another icon. At least she didn't set up the machinery of an atheist state which killed 100 million people over 80 years,unlike Vladimir IIych(Ulanov) or whatever the bastard used to be known as. Mother Theresa never got people to dig the Volga Canal with teaspoons. Sorry that was Stalin, Lenin is the untouchable High Priest of the Atheist Religion. Watch the parking meters. Love to you too.

Subject: Sounds to me like... From: Nigel To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:16:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..is the thing you hate more than religion, Pat. You'll find monsters of every ideological stripe - even centrist Lib/Dems (hang on, I'll think of one... ..David Owen?) So Stalin was more evil than Mrs Theresa? I reckon you might be right. Crikey. Next you'll be telling me Bin laden is more evil than Richard Dawkins - or vice versa. As for for 'high priests of atheism? - For gawd's sake... (yawn)

Subject: David Owen.... From: PatD To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:05:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...you mean the Top Ranker,forgive the rhyming slang. OK, I'll concede on M.Theresa,but never on Lenin.

Subject: Missing word in above post... From: Nigel To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 17:29:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...I meant to say 'hate communism rather than atheism'. But no matter. As for Lenin: as I said elsewhere, I know little about him as a person, but given the scale of mass exploitation/starvation etc. in Tzarist Russia, anyone with workable idea for ending that longstanding fascistic state of affairs had to be at least pointing in a more worthwhile and humanistic direction. Were it not so, the Russian revolution would not have been a popular revolution. Wouldn't have got off the ground, in fact. Democracy would have been a useful ingredient in whatever prescription - sure. But judgements from hindsight are too easy. I am not sure democracy even existed anyway (ie. votes for all citizens) at the time.

Subject: I dislike absolutists ,as I'm sure you do [nt] From: PatD To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:55:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PatD / Joe / JHB From: NIgel To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:01:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Several points, Pat - I don't hold with your examples (with the possible exception of Stalin). Hitler was nominally Catholic (remember that thing about 'Kinder, Kuche, Kirche'?), and at height of his tenure was also effectively running a devotional cult of his own. And I disagree that Lenin was evil. All I have read suggests an idealistic, humanist with the greater good as an objective. I don't know how far the subsequent corruption of those ideals by others was foreseeable, but I don't see that was part of either Lenin's dream or intentions. Stalin was certainly a monster - but I don't see how his atheism was a necessary part of that. As for Mother Theresa - did you ever see Christopher Hitchens' expose? Looks to me like the religious aspect of her work was counterproductive: in many cases (reported by volunteer helpers) she was more concerned with saving the souls of the down-and-outs rather than saving their lives (in one case cited, preferring a teenager in her care to die in her mission rather than send him to the local hospital which could have provided cheap, effective treatment). As for atheism being a religion. I think that is a nonsense, for precisely the reasons Jim gives Sir Dave lower down. J & J: I am not sure there isn't a 'cart before horse' aspect to your arguments. We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. If religious people perform altruistic acts, I would argue that is because they are people, not because they are religious. One could argue for hours over the question of whether or not any action is truly altruistic ie., has only the welfare of others at heart (if giving feels nice for the doer, then the doer is also a beneficiary), but, either way, I am sure those actions are simply a byproduct of our evolving as social animals.

Subject: Pragmatic religion From: Joe To: NIgel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:23:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. It depends on the religious belief, doesn't it? Quakers for example, have a pretty good record I think. If religious people perform altruistic acts, I would argue that is because they are people, not because they are religious I agree, and I think that's what I said. I was speaking of the social value of religions, as a means of organizing the power of 'people' to do altruistic things. There is a certain 'critical' mass advantage that comes from the larger group. No, I don't think that's inherently a religious phenomenon, but sometimes there aren't very good alterantives, so in that sense the 'religion' can be a good thing, and I think history demonstrates that it can be.

Subject: Don't really disagree, as such.... From: Nigel To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:48:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I see the religious groups who are socially functional as merely demonstrating the value of socially functional groups - not religion. Subtract the religion and the good remains. For me, the theistic / magical thinking / fatalistic soundtrack is, at best, an irritation - at worst a means of diverting good intentions to unbelievable evil. (No examples needed, surely..?) Quakers? - Don't know enough about them to comment. But from those I know who have attended meetings, I am not sure you could even call them a religion. They don't seem to presume to know or teach anything unfounded. (I am also not sure what Quakers are actually for - but they make decent porridge, I guess. What is the point of Quakers, exactly?) PS: Are you still coming to the UK this year? PPS: was Lenin a good guy or not? I need help here... ;)

Subject: Social Function of Religion From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:41:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, I agree it is theoretically possible that non-religious movements could do the same thing religions do, but I think especially in this culture social institutions (and civil society in general) are in a great state of decline in the USA. There is very little of it left, as we are encouraged to do little more than work, consume and watch television. So, that kind of increases the value of the institutions that are left, and unfortunately, religions, in the form of churches or religious groups are one form of institution that remains. Obviously, you are right that there are huge downsides to religions as well. The Quakers are Christian, and they do stand for non-violence, and lots of conscientious objectors were Quaker, but then Richard Nixon was raised Quaker, so there you have it. Yes, still coming to the UK, arriving on May 26 and leaving on June 15. One week will be in Ireland, at least, but otherwise we are, as expected, a bit unplanned. I haven't heard about any sort of Latvian event, either in London or destinations North. Was Lenin a good guy? Do you really think I'm going to step into that one? :) But I would have to say, on balance, no. Good idea, horrible execution. [Hey, think I can sneak this in without raising Jim's blood pressure 25 points? I'm going to see Noam Chomsky on March 21, plus just got his new book on 911, which I'm enjoying.]

Subject: Chomsky From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:22:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, sorry to go off topic here, but what is Chomsky's take on 911? Also, is Chomsky sort of persona nongrata in the US? I know he's not as well known over there as he is here (England). Best, Livia

Subject: Re: Chomsky From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll tell you more after I finish the book. I think on 3/21 when he speaks in San Francisco, he's going to be mainly addressing the Middle East and the Israel/Palestinian issues. One of the major sponsors is the Middle East Chidren's Alliance. Actually, Chomsky is well known in the USA, but may be more well known in other countries. The US media market is so huge and so corporate-controlled that there isn't much diversity of opinion presented anymore, which is one of Chomsky's points (and as Bandikian, Zinn, Barsamian, McChesney, Norman Soloman, and many others have pointed out.) It's the alternative media, what there is left of it, that people like Chomsky can get heard in the US. He seems to have a large and enthusiastic following in Canada, that really makes Jim nuts. But his books are always big sellers in the USA and he seems to come out with them about twice a year. He writes all the time for Z Magazine and The Progressive. About the only radio I hear him on regularly is Amy Goodman's show, Democracy Now on Pacifica Radio, which is heard on about 60 radio stations in the US. He teaches at MIT, lives outside Boston.

Subject: He sure as hell does drive me nuts From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:15:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chomsky's take on 9/11 is crazy and disgusting. As I said here once before, I had the 'pleasure' of reading his fast book of lectures on the subject at an airport in December. Typical Chomsky, he very quickly and summarily glosses over the harm done to the U.S. which, of course, he really had to concede for once and gets down to the business he enjoys so much, making his case that the U.S. is an evil empire. Chomsky is a real hero on campuses here because he's tapped into a real goldmind of anti-Americanism. When I was a kid that sentiment was nothing but a reasonable sense of begrudging admiration for America's strengths and a healthy competitive spirit such as exemplified by the big Canadian rush over the olympic hockey wins. Little brother kicks big brother's ass for a change, kind of thing. Chomsky, though, has really done a number here. Remember the women's studies prof from the University of British Columbia in Vancouver who gave that scandalous speech after 9/11, saying that the States had it coming, etc.? Child of Chomsky, through and through. Pesonally, I hate the guy. No question that he's smart and no question that he's marshalled a ton of facts to play with. However, he's an untrustworthy polemicist who believes that any one who doesn't sahre his specific political ideas, weighted in importance along his very hierarchy, is corrupt. Thus anyone who disagrees with him is either a duped slave or maybe even master in the deception only he and his followers can see through. Anyone who buys into this garbage is ingesting a toxic level of self-righteousness. There should be warnings on the covers of his books.

Subject: Chomsky on 9/11 From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:25:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's Chomsky, whose book on the subject Joe is enjoying, the day after the attack: The September 11 attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number of victims they do not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and probably killing tens of thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry at the UN and no one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worse cases, which easily come to mind. But that this was a horrendous crime is not in doubt. The primary victims, as usual, were working people: janitors, secretaries, firemen, etc. It is likely to prove to be a crushing blow to Palestinians and other poor and oppressed people. It is also likely to lead to harsh security controls, with many possible ramifications for undermining civil liberties and internal freedom. The events reveal, dramatically, the foolishness of ideas about 'missile defense.' As has been obvious all along, and pointed out repeatedly by strategic analysts, if anyone wants to cause immense damage in the US, including weapons of mass destruction, they are highly unlikely to launch a missile attack, thus guaranteeing their immediate destruction. There are innumerable easier ways that are basically unstoppable. But these events will, nonetheless, be used to increase the pressure to develop these systems and put them into place. 'Defense' is a thin cover for plans for militarization of space, and with good PR, even the flimsiest arguments will carry some weight among a frightened public. In short, the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those who hope to use force to control their domains. That is even putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse. The prospects ahead are even more ominous than they appeared to be before the latest atrocities. As to how to react, we have a choice. We can express justified horror; we can seek to understand what may have led to the crimes, which means making an effort to enter the minds of the likely perpetrators. If we choose the latter course, we can do no better, I think, than to listen to the words of Robert Fisk, whose direct knowledge and insight into affairs of the region is unmatched after many years of distinguished reporting. Describing 'The wickedness and awesome cruelty of a crushed and humiliated people,' he writes that 'this is not the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia - paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally - hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps.' And much more. Again, we have a choice: we may try to understand, or refuse to do so, contributing to the likelihood that much worse lies ahead. CP What a guy, huh? www.counterpunch.org/chomskybomb.html

Subject: Re: Chomsky on 9/11 From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:17:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, Jim, what exactly is so blasphemous in what Chomsky said the day after 9/11? It's no different to what most people in Europe felt, along with the horror and heartfelt sympathy for the victims. To us, America isn't the centre of the world, and the preservation of the American way of life isn't the only end worth pursuing, foreign policy-wise. I'm afraid Chomsky's right in mentioning the thousands killed in the pursuit of American aims. Do any Americans know or even care how many innocent thousands of Iraqis were killed by American bombs during the Gulf War? Or are Iraqi lives somehow worth less? Why is it so hard for Americans to imagine how it feels from the other side? Admittedly, if the terrorist attack had occurred in London or Paris, our emotions here would have been different, and many of us here discussed this endlessly. But should those feelings negate the need to examine the possible reasons for third world anger towards us? As Chomsky rightly in my view says: 'we have a choice: we may understand, or refuse to do so, contributing to the likelihood that much worse lies ahead.' You only have to look at what's going on in Israel to see the wisdom in this approach. Sharon's answer is to bomb the hell out of all those who support Palestinian terrorism in the aim of shoring up Israel's security. But until the Israeli's address the causes of the Palestinians' rage, that rage just isn't going to go away. And only today I heard some prominent Israeli say that TALKING is what is needed now, otherwise the violence will just go on, and on, and on. And isn't that really what Chomsky is suggesting? Best, Livia

Subject: Livia.... From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 17:52:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just to fill in some history, Jim hated Chomsky long, long before 9/11 so it wasn't that article that set his blood pressure rising. When the subject of Chomsky came up, that was just the writing that was the most available to Jim, from Cockburn's website, not that there is anything particularly objectionable about it. I'm sure Jim agrees with Chomsky that 9/11 was an atrocity, and that the missle defense system would have done zero to prevent it. I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise.

Subject: Okayyyyyyyyy........ From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:22:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, Could you do me a favour and find me the quote in that book you just got where Chomsky places 9/11 in context by explaining that, lest we forget, the U.S. is the worst terrorist state in human history? One of my favorites.

Subject: Correction From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:50:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apparently, Chomsky did not call the U.S. the 'worst terrorist state in human history'. That was just my hyperbolic memory. He did call it one of the 'leading terrorist states' in existance. He did equate 9/11 with the U.S. conflict against the Sandinistas and the bombing fo the Sudanese factory after the U.S. embassy attacks in Africa. He did say that there were lots of 'bin Laden's' on 'both sides'. Amazing. Simply amazing.

Subject: Yeah, we know you're amazed From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:37:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The argument is that the US killed more people, many, many more people in the Contra War (civilians, not military), in our illegal attempt to overthrow the elected government of Nicaragua that we didn't like, than were killed at WTC. In regard to the pharmaceutical plant in Sudan that we blew up, which the US has now tacitly admitted was done in error (although the US VETOED the UN's attempt at the request of Sudan to do an investigation, (wonder why)) in that there was NO evidence it was producing weaponry, components of chemicals for warfare, since it was one of the only plants in the Sudan producing antibiotics and other essential drugs, it resulted in many more deaths than occurred on 9/11 at WTC. If you followed any of this, Chomsky and Christopher Hitchens had a huge, ongoing debate about this subject on the internet, with Hitchens finally admitting that on the basis of the number of deaths, it could be argued that the pharmaceutical plant bombing was a worse terrorist act. This subject has been beaten to death, but Chomsky was extremely careful to say that only in the sense of the number of deaths, and not on any other basis, are the events comparable, and he has repeatedly talked about what an atrocity the WTC attack was. However, in your attempt to always paint Chomsky and anyone who agrees with him as 'anti-american' those kind of nuances always seem to escape you.

Subject: Talk about 'nuances'! From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:37:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't lecture me about 'nuances'. Anyone who'd even think of equating the Sudanese bombing or Contra War with 9/11 is blurring some very obvious moral distinctions to say the least. As for whether or not it's fair to call Chomsky 'anti-American', sorry, maybe I'm wrong. I was under the impression that he calls the U.S. a 'leading terrorist state' in that book you've got. I must have been thinking of someone else. Maybe that was Quaddafi or someone who said that. Yeah, right.

Subject: How about some facts. From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:54:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Besides your generalizations about 'blurring moral distinctions,' the fact remains that the bombing of Sudan, which was of a plant the US falsly alleged was manufacturing nerve gas for Ossama bin Laden, and that isn't disputed anymore, resulted in more deaths that the WTC attacks. Or is there some kind of racist contempt for African victims of a terrorist crime committed by the US, as opposed to American victims of a terrorist crime? This single atrocity destroyed half the pharmaceutical supplies of a poor African country and the facilities for replenishing them, with an enormous human toll. You get outraged that Chomsky compares this atrocity to the terrorist attacks of September 11 but the toll of the dead in Sudan, although never to be known for sure because the United States blocked any UN inquiry, is very large. I don't see anything wrong with Chomsky engaging in well-accepted truism: When we estimate the human toll of a crime, we count not only those who were literally murdered on the spot but those who died as a result, the course we adopt reflexively, and properly, when we consider the crimes of official enemies--Stalin, Hitler and Mao, to mention the most extreme cases. If we are even pretending to be serious, we apply the same standards to ourselves: In the case of Sudan, we count the number who died as a direct consequence of the crime, not just those killed by cruise missiles. But the loss of life in Sudan was awful: A year after the attack, without the lifesaving medicine [the destroyed facilities] produced, Sudan's death toll from the bombing has continued, quietly, to rise.... Thus, tens of thousands of people--many of them children--have suffered and died from malaria, tuberculosis, and other treatable diseases.... [The factory] provided affordable medicine for humans and all the locally available veterinary medicine in Sudan. It produced 90 percent of Sudan's major pharmaceutical products.... Sanctions against Sudan make it impossible to import adequate amounts of medicines required to cover the serious gap left by the plant's destruction.... the action taken by Washington on Aug. 20, 1998, continues to deprive the people of Sudan of needed medicine. Millions must wonder how the International Court of Justice in The Hague will celebrate this anniversary' (Jonathan Belke, Boston Globe, August 22, 1999). 'The loss of this factory is a tragedy for the rural communities who need these medicines' (Tom Carnaffin, technical manager with 'intimate knowledge' of the destroyed plant, Ed Vulliamy et al., London Observer, August 23, 1998). The plant provided 50 percent of Sudan's medicines, and its destruction has left the country with no supplies of choloroquine, the standard treatment for malaria, but months later, the British Labour government refused requests to resupply chloroquine in emergency relief until such time as the Sudanese can rebuild their pharmaceutical production. (Patrick Wintour, Observer, December 20, 1998). Proportional to population, this is as if the bin Laden network, in a single attack on the United States, caused 'hundreds of thousands of people--many of them children--to suffer and die from easily treatable diseases,' though the analogy is unfair because a rich country, not under sanctions and denied aid, can easily replenish its stocks and respond appropriately to such an atrocity--which, I presume, would not have passed so lightly. Also, once we knew that would be the result, and even though it was clear a huge error was made, there were no reparations, aid or lifting of the embargo of Sudan. That's all part of the act of terrorism, IMO. And also, I think it is completely fair and correct to point out that the leading sponsors and perpetrators of terrorism have been states, not mere organizations like that of bin Laden. By the number of deaths, the US is, indeed, one of the leading terrorist states. But, given the widely accepted view of 'American exceptionalism' apparently also held by at least one Canadian, the US isn't judged by the same rules we judge everyone else.

Subject: Chomsky: U.S. is WORSE terrorist than UBL! From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:35:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's another quote of Chomsky's: What's called 'terrorism' is terrorism directed against the U.S. and its allies, not the terrorism carried out by the U.S. and its allies, which happens to be far greater. ...Chomsky in Australian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Peter Clarke, 16/10/01 Thanks for reminding me that he's NOT anti-American. I tend to get confused whenever I see someone claim that U.S. terrorism is 'far greater' than that of 9/11. But, thankfully, you're there to remind me of how 'nuanced' this all is. The states bombed the factory because they believed, wrongly, it was a munitions plant for the Bin Laden guys that had just destroyed the two U.S. embassies in Africa. I won't argue about the disastrous consequences but I'm appalled at the suggestion that this act was even on the same page as 9/11 for you and Chomsky. It was rash, it was wrong, I'll even grant you the disastrous collateral results (although those numbers are just wild speculation, I bet). But there's no way in the world that that bombing is even mentionable in the same breath as 9/11. Of course, to Chomsky, it's worse. I did read the Hitchens and Chomsky debate and, for my money, Hitchens kicked your guy's ass bigtime. But, honestly, how can you possibly support someone who says things like the quote above? And how can you not, at minimum, concede that anyone who claims the U.S. commits acts of terror 'far greater' than 9/11 is anti-American? What would it take, Joe, to be 'anti-American' if that's not enough? Or maybe there's no such thing? Maybe bin Laden's not anti-American either .... Too much.

Subject: Let's not do this here From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 16:13:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I'm biting my tongue (fingertips?) but we really shouldn't do this here. I think Chomsky's views speak for themselves and I personally find them abhorrent. But if you want to discuss this further, email me. Then, once we're finsihed, you can come back here and tell everyone I was right. :) jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Right, we know that. From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:25:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and everything. And hey, Jim we all know you 'hate' him; you've already said that many, many times --- every time he's ever mentioned on the Forum, I think. We get it Jim. No question about that. I'll try and tell him when I see him on March 21, but he's probably already heard. :) Have you tried taking your blood pressure when you talk about Chomsky? Interesting experiment.

Subject: Just don't pranam, Joe From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:29:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, Be careful not to let your self get carried away when you see him, Joe. In spite of everything, he is, after all, just a human being.

Subject: And don't forget your free Chomsky tote-bag From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:02:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chomsky lectured last week in Berkeley. It cost $50 but you got a free tote-bag with ''Chomsky'' printed on it. Jim, he finds the same adoring anti-American audiences on campuses here too. I had to use my tote-bag as a barf bag. :C) Just kidding I wouldn't waste $50. He's an opportunistic demagogue preaching to his choir.

Subject: Grow up Pat. From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:20:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will be in the audience but I am not anti-American and that is simplistic bullshit you are uttering. I really resent it. Your comments re Berkeley and tote bags are equally ignorant.

Subject: De gustibus, Joe....... From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:46:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We'll never agree about politics or Berkeley. :P

Subject: Yeah, but I don't call you names From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:20:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anti-American? That sucks and I deserve better from you.

Subject: Re: Yeah, but I don't call you names From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I honestly didn't have you in mind when I used the word ''anti-American,'' Joe. Believe me. Sure, I meant Chomsky's campus audiences often are and I know you're a damn pinko pansy but you're as American as apple pie in my eyes. :C)

Subject: Avoiding the broad brush From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 17:47:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know about campus audiences, but the times I've seen Chomsky speak I would judge the average age of the audience as well over 40.

Subject: Re: Avoiding the broad brush From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:29:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you didn't take offense at my silly jokes, Joe - very broad brush strokes indeed but I was in a light-hearted mood that day which I am not today for some reason. b)

Subject: Unsubstantiated Statement From: JHB To: NIgel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:06:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, You said:- We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. We don't know this at all. What we know is that many people who claim religious beliefs still kill people on occasion. What I am speculating is that the early humans, without some sort of religious beliefs incorporating some sort of ethical code, would have been more likely to kill, when threatened by other humans, in the same way they would have no compunction in killing animals that threatened them. I haven't researched this, so I could be talking complete bollocks, but to argue that because religious people kill other people means that the religious code of ethics isn't a deterrent, is, I'm sure you'll agree, false. John.

Subject: Re: Unsubstantiated Statement From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:59:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you read any anthropology especially that of the Melanesians, Amazonians and Africans (which may be similar cultures to those from which we have all evolved in the not so distant past - probably as little as 20,000 years ago) you will find that most human ethics are based on practical considerations. Murder, incest, theft or lying are not tolerated by anyone no matter how primitive because they are irresponsible and anti-social. But certain mystical mumbo-jumbos will allow, for instance, certain Melanesian tribes to eat their dead grandmothers while for others the only cannibalism allowed is the eating of a defeated enemy warrior. Basic practical ethical rules have been around for as long as groups of humans have had to co-operate. Many of the common law ideas which we still subscribe to are contained in the Code of Hammurabi which is not much more than a set of rules and regulations regarding shared irrigation projects and trade but is older than Methuselah. The need for co-operation in irrigation created more ethics than religion. Religion seems to have always been more about mystical mumbo-jumbo than ethics until Jainism and it's offshoot Buddhism and later Judaism, Christianity and Islam which are very concerned with morality but of a type which is often more concerned with life after death than life on earth. Where I do disagree with Nigel is his idea that Lenin was not evil but a starry-eyed idealist. Didn't Lenin first coin the saying: 'The end justifies the means.' And did he also not disdain liberal socialists whom he termed ''useful idiots.'' In fact I think he may probably have thought that Nigel was a useful idiot. But that argument is not for this forum.

Subject: Is there a historian in the house.. From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:07:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some good anthrolopological points, Pat. re. Lenin: my knowledge of him as a person is somewhat limited, and I may be painting him in an innapropriately angelic light (wretched commie subversive that I am). When you consider the nature of absolute power to corrupt absolutely, I would be surprised if he was such a nice guy, even if he started out that way. (Actually, I think it was Machievelli who coined the 'end justifies the means' thing.) But I don't think it really detracts from my point about Stalin etc. If Stalin had got religion he would probably have become a Milosevich or an Ayatollah. Actually, if religions nowadays pay at least lip service to international respect and harmony amongst rival faiths, it was not ever thus. I seem to remember the Old Testament as being something of a tribal blood-fest. And even with twentieth century wars, I am not sure there was ever an army chaplain who advised his charges to 'love thine enemies' (as opposed to 'kill them'). I'm not suggesting there isn't such thing as a good war, or at least a 'just war' (I think there is), but that religious leaders of all faiths and nations will usually embrace their own side's cause, uncritically - which, in a way, makes it an incredibly dangerous propaganda weapon. 'With God on our side' etc. Hmm, I am rambling a bit now, so I'll shut up. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition... Nige the not even useful idiot.

Subject: 'Religious code of ethics' From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I take your point, John (ie. religious teachings might, in some cases, act as a moral deterrent) but the crucial qualifier you have added about religions 'incorporating some sort of ethical code' moves the goalposts somewhat. I would argue that codes of ethics would be there anyway. Is it really fear of damnation which stops people killing each other? Or - more likely - IMO, fear of the act itself plus fear of the consequences - and, thanks to our tendency towards social cooperation, prosocial behaviour feels nicer than conflict? Chimpanzees will, on occasion, murder one another, but, on the whole, do not. No religion necessary there. I suppose one piece of retrospective research you could carry out would be to try and correlate murder rates with the degree of religious observance in every country with available data. Your argument would predict a negative correlation; mine would predict either no correlation or even a positive one. (The USA has the world's highest murder rate in spite of still being a very religious country). Tricky, though, because of all the extraneous factors you would need to control for. Alternatively, you could examine the strength of religious belief (or lack of) amongst convicted criminals. I suspect it would not so dissimilar to that found in society at large. (I notice, too, that Roman Catholicism has never been much of a deterrent for paedophile priests...)

Subject: Probably impossible to prove From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 05:14:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, Sorry about the goalposts but I thought that was implicit in using the example 'thou shalt not kill'. Of course a religion that advocates slaughter of non-believers would not be a good deterrent. Also, I was speculating about early human societies, so research would be difficult. I just think it stands to reason that with no other factors present, a society that believes it's wrong to kill other humans would be less likely to do so than one that has no such belief, assuming the instinctive tendencies are the same. But as I said, I could be talking a load of bollocks. Maybe the society that has no such collective belief, but works out using their brains that it's better for the species to avoid killing as much as possible, would kill less than a society that restricts its intellectual development by holding irrational beliefs. I just don't know if such a society ever developed, or coud have developed. John

Subject: Hmm, goalposts moved even further..? From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 05:58:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, now it looks like you are further qualifying your definition of the good that religion can do by narrowing it down to 'religions with codes of ethics that do not advocate slaughter', or something. As you could similarly endorse secular codes of ethics which do not advocate slaughter, then religion becomes redundant to the whole argument, unless you - or anyone - can show that religious belief is necessary for any society (even a primitive one) to develop such a code. I don't think it was, or is.

Subject: Just look how wide they are now! From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:07:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, Nigel, you've backed me in a corner now, so see if you can argue with this. I'm now confining my comments to all religions adopted by primitive human society that helped created social adhesion, and helped develop a good ethical code. I suspect I haven't got a leg to stand on were you to argue that this applies to a minority of religions:) John the didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Subject: Talking of Spanish Inquisition.. From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:13:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand it observed a strict code of ethical conduct involving the gentle roasting of heretics in the name of an infallible Pope... Excellent choice of metaphor, I reckon ;)

Subject: Thanks, I thought you'd like it:) [nt] From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:00:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Altruistic Acts From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:13:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that there is no reason to assume that all the 'good' that religions do, couldn't be done without religious beliefs. But I have also seen, on a practical level, that religions can be a very effective way of bringing people together to carry out those altruistic acts in a fashion much more powerful than if people were trying to do them individually or among their relatively small group of friends. I think this is especially true if people don't live in a community with long traditions and interconnections, like if everyone is from someplace else. The example I am thinking of is the incredible response to the AIDs epidemic in San Francisco, (where most people are from someplace else) in which religious groups played a vital role in bringing groups of people together to act, regardless of what they believed about whatever the religion holds out to be true. They even orgainzed many otherwise "secular" programs in which people who aren't members of the religion could participate.

Subject: Re: Altruistic Acts From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:19:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few secular groups that do good come to mind: Oxfam http://www.oxfam.org/ Doctors Without Borders http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Subject: What is 'good?' From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:10:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's completely subjective. I would tend to think a religion is 'good' if it supports and provides a way to exercise my values, and perhaps to provide a community who largely hold the values. Hence, since I'm a secular humanist, the Unitarians come about as close as anything to what a 'good' religion would be, since they hold vaguely Christian beliefs (just barely) and humanism is really their beliefs. But someone else would give you an entirely different answer because they have different values. It get's circular, though. Since most people are 'raised' in a religion, they either accept the familiarity of it, get bored and fall away, or reject it completely once they are able to. So, the religion not only is an expression of values, it also can teach, or indoctrinate them into people as well. I think religions are almost entirely social phenomena, especially in the USA.

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:12:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A fascinating post, Pat. However, what about the fact that statistically, people who believe in or have a faith in some kind of a God tend to have healthier immune systems/longer lives? I have read this as a piece of well backed up research. I think the implication is that we are all subject to existential fears. The instinct for survival is built into all of us, and we are all ultimately afraid of death, hence the success of religions. Most of us probably fear the notion of total annihilation. Therefore those of us who through whatever method manage to convince ourselves that there is something behind all of this, and that we may have a destiny larger than our comparitively short life on earth, probably manage to be happier than those who don't or can't. Hence the healthier immune system, longer life-span etc. And whether one believes in anything or not, there are still enormous questions to be asked about ourselves, the world, everything. In other words, having questioned/rejected the Maharaji view, we are now left with all the existential questions we or some of us had before recieving K. There are a number of ways to deal with this: attempting to lead an ethical life, continuing to do meditation, either the techniques or a different kind, enjoying our lives and the pursuit of our goals, relationships etc.....the choice is up to us, I suppose. Another thing worth examining is the psychological aspect: how many of us were drawn to M not for existential/'spiritual' reasons but for psychological ones? Ie the need for a good father figure? This could be the case with people who lacked a good/present father in our own childhoods. I think for people like this (and I could be one of them), it's extremely difficult to give up the concept of M as perfect. It's as if we have internalised him as an archetype, and it doesn't matter what we hear about him, wrongdoings, obvious feet of clay, etc., the internalisation is so needed and powerful that it's very hard to shift. I posted an article about Sai Baba below with lots of quotes from Baba devotees; their inability to accept that he could be any less than perfect against all the evidence has obvious parallels with some premies. My feeling is that in those cases psychotherapy is probably the answer, as the blindness towards the fallibility of both these teachers probably causes those people to be poor judges of character in other area of their lives too, and is best sorted out. So, premie -ji below, know thyself! with love, Livia

Subject: Good points, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:02:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You addressed some important points, thank you. Another thing worth examining is the psychological aspect: how many of us were drawn to M not for existential/'spiritual' reasons but for psychological ones? Ie the need for a good father figure? This could be the case with people who lacked a good/present father in our own childhoods. I think for people like this (and I could be one of them), it's extremely difficult to give up the concept of M as perfect. It's as if we have internalised him as an archetype, and it doesn't matter what we hear about him, wrongdoings, obvious feet of clay, etc., the internalisation is so needed and powerful that it's very hard to shift. This is a subject you have brought up before and I agree with your assessment that there were underlying psychologic reasons for some, many all, (I don't know) for needing a father figure in m. I know it's true for me, in retrosect. The confusion I have right now about this is what came first, the cult programming or the psychological need? I'm not sure what happened to me when I entered that first satsang house. Did something I may not have even been conscious of inside my own make-up (a need for unconditional love, as advertised?) triggere in to make me want to devote myself to m, with all the trappings, no questions asked? It's difficult sometimes for me to discern between the cult programming and my own needs at the time. The 'ole chicken and egg thing. You are correct though when you say perhaps some of us were predisposed to be a bad judge of character; I know I was. Yet, at the time of my induction into the cult I was oblivious to my ability to judge character, make a real life choice aside from the Maharajism. I think for me it was a huge escape, with, of course, the backdrop of my own personal psychological predispositions. And interesting POV, Livia... Thanks. You've got me thinking again...:) Be well, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Good points, Livia and Cynthia From: Mercedes To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 18:30:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia and Cynthia, I am thinking that in my case I was predisposed due to the circumstances around my life and took on this guy as an archetypal father figure, I am still sorting out the mess in my life, for starters my growth was stunted for about 20 years. I am still really angry at this guy, he never gave us guidance as to how to take care of ourselves it was all service or participation as they call it now, negating our own needs and wants. Yes this is a personality cult that stunts growth in people and blinds people to the reality of their own lives and their alledged teacher. I don't believe in religion personally I wish there were no religions any more, that is not possible I know so I make it possible for me, I just trust my inner guidance system and also Goddess or Spirit to give it a name. Thank you for your insightful posts, Mercedes

Subject: Nice going Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:29:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice take on the subject. I especially liked what you say about being drawn to M&K for psychological reasons and one reason it can be difficult to jettison is because we bound M&K psychologically with the father archetype.

Subject: Rastafarianism From: Pullaver To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:01:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's see now, we believe in smokin' great piles of ganja and that Haile Selassi, a former Emporer of Ethiopia is 'santa massa ganna' king of kings and Bob Marley is our patron saint of riddim, but smoke the spliff first mon, and ask questions later (if you can remember them).

Subject: 'Religions are like farts ...' From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:19:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks'. [Picket Fences] ... and a few more erudite quotes to ponder on: All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. [Edgar Allan Poe] I want nothing to do with religion concerned with keeping the masses satisfied to live in hunger, filth and ignorance. I want nothing to do with any order, religious or otherwise, which does not teach people that they are capable of becoming happier and more civilized, on this earth, capable of becoming true man, master of his fate and captain of his soul. To attain this, I would put priests to work, also, and turn the temples into schools. [Jawaharlal Nehru] It is fear that first brought gods into the world. [Petronius Arbiter, Satyricon] Belief means not wanting to know what is true. [Nietzche, The Anti-Christ, 1889] Recently I was reading somewhere or other [about] an Italian curio-dealer who attempted to sell a 17th century crucifix to J.P. Morgan. [I]nside it was concealed a stiletto. What a perfect symbol of the Christian religion. [George Orwell] God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers-- at bottom merely a gross prohibition for us: you shall not think! [Nietzsche, Ecce Homo] The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all price, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, self-derision, and self-mutilation... [Nietzsche] The tolerance of liberty can be maintained until complete federal and state control by Catholics has been accomplished. [Bishop O'Connor, Pittsburgh]

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: the maharaji To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:33:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cum back, patsy cum back to ME !!!

Subject: thanks, doll, but no thanks. From: PatC To: the maharaji Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:56:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cum back, patsy cum back to ME !!! --- It's more fun spinning against you than for you. Hey, baby, you were the one who said Maharajism wasn't a religion. Well, it turned out it is. Oops! Sorry, buddy.

Subject: Oh Yessss!:p From: Father Tiswonurtabit To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am a big fan of 'The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence'. They do good works on the streets of Sydney in early March!

Subject: Reply below Pat From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:32:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's what happens when you use the back & forward buttons at 2 in the morning.

Subject: You forgot the Cargo Cult......... From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 19:14:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...that was a good one. Silver bird in sky drop grub. Yum Yum. Nice one Pat.

Subject: Why not??? From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:31:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you don't have to belong to any religion to be a whole and honorable person, I'm sure that there are plenty of good people who belong to some religions, who won't be asked, and if asked, won't be able to give up their moral values or integrity in exchange of salvation, but instead will denounce the oppressor. One thing is a cult and other a religion. We have come a long way baby. Or maybe they? Because WE really were in a cult.

Subject: Why not???? From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:07:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you don't have to belong to any religion to be a whole and honorable person, I'm sure that there are plenty of good people who belonged to some religions, who won't be asked, and if asked, won't be able to give up their moral values or integrity in exchange of salvation, but instead will denounce the oppresor.One thing is a cult and other a religion. We have come a long way baby. Or maybe they? Because WE really were in a cult.

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: Mike Finch To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:02:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat Great post. The best summary of religions I have seen for a long time, but you don't define what you mean by 'good'. What is a 'good' religion ?? Is a 'good' religion one that keeps people peaceful and non-violent - Marx's opiate of the masses (or was that Lenin ?). Then probably Jainism and Theravada Buddhist win. (Or do people that are inherently peaceful and non-violent pick those religions ?) Is a 'good' religion one that fires people up to get them moving and enthused with the work ethic, so that society can produce (and consume) loads of stuff - then probably Judeo-Christianity comes near the top. Of course, for premies, all religions are bad, since you have to accept some belief system, and as we all know, Knowledge is pure experience and involves no beliefs (ha !). For ex-premies all religions are bad, since they are either 'pre-scientific' (the most meaningless of Forum 7 mots du jour, in my opinion), or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. -- Mike

Subject: They're all bollox I reckon From: hamzen To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:29:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some people might get something from them, the belief gives you a bit of breathing space on the existential dread and terror front maybe, and occasionally they can be a stabilising social force, but I still reckon they're all bollox.

Subject: existential dread and terror front From: Francesca To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:47:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great one, hamzen! --f

Subject: There you go again, Mike From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:19:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For ex-premies all religions are bad, since they are either 'pre-scientific' (the most meaningless of Forum 7 mots du jour, in my opinion), I love the term 'prescientific' but you find it meaningless. Now I wonder why that is. Here's Mirriam Webster: Main Entry: pre·sci·en·tif·ic Pronunciation: 'prE-'sI-&n-'ti-fik Function: adjective Date: 1858 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a period before the rise of modern science or a state prior to the application of the scientific method Frankly, I think that's a very rich meaning. or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference?

Subject: Question for Jim or Mike From: PatrickW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 18:39:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Webster defines 'pre-scientific' as.....'of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a period before the rise of modern science or a state prior to the application of the scientific method ' Roughly when do you guys suppose (or monsieur Webster thinks) that the 'rise of modern science' took place? It just got me thinking that people have arguably been applying scientific method for an awful long time - that is without calling it 'Science' or even having heard of that word. On another note, I recently saw a very interesting science TV programme which was about how scientists now feel there is extremely compelling evidence that there are innumerable parallel universes. Mike if you are in the UK and even in the south, maybe give me a call and we could get together. It'd be good to see you and discuss your 'transatlantic' paper!

Subject: OK - here I go again From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love the term 'prescientific' but you find it meaningless... It is certainly not 'meaningless', and the definition you quote from the dictionary is a fairly precise meaning. If 'prescientific' is used as a neutral description of the period before modern science, I have no problem. What I am getting at is that it is often used as shorthand, or an umbrella word, for a whole attitude and collection of thoughts that I think need questioning. My basic problem is the that the scientific method is the only method of obtaining the truth. This is a big topic, and I am not going to cover it here. In fact, I am flying to England tomorrow, and I may well spend some of the flight trying to write a clear exposition of what I mean. A few bullet points of what I think I will say: -- What is 'truth' ? Difficult if not impossible to answer; therefore take the pragmatic approach, and ask instead the question: What body of knowledge is useful ? -- There is no question that what has emerged out of the scientific method and modern science is useful to humanity. -- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? -- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. -- What is consciousness ? I think you have to leave it as a primitive term (in the logical sense) as one that you cannot define, but everyone has some common understanding of what you mean. -- Areas in which there is no, or little, consciousness include objects in the physical world - and the sciences which attempt to investigate these, such as physics and chemistry are spectacularly successful. -- Areas in which there is a spectrum of consciousness, ranging from zero consciousness to full consciousness, include the human body, and sciences which deal with this have mixed success. When modern medicine attempts to fix things in the human body that are purely physical, such as broken bones or physical injury, then again medicine is spectacularly successful. When it attempts to fix diseases that arise from a clearly indentifiable foreign agent invading the body, then again we have success. -- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. -- Other sciences that deal with consciousness-related stuff are psychology and sociology. When science tries to answer questions that remove consciousness, such as the behavorial psychologies where individuals are treated as consciousless robots, then again some success. But when psychology tries to treat problems that arise from consciousness itself, then no success - or at best cover up the symptoms with drugs, particularly for the depressive and schizoid. -- So if modern science, the child of the scientifc method, has less and less success being useful the more it approaches consciousness, is there another approach that might fill the gap ? I think yes, the fact that consciousness can be self-reflective, that an individual's consciousness can be conscious of itself. In that self-relectivity I believe that there exists another mode of knowing, or let's say discovering things which are useful, that does not contradict the scientific method, but complements it. -- Not only do I believe this is so, but I can also explain why this is so. The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. -- As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. -- It is interesting to note that some people hold that the 'particles' of quantum mechanics do not obey these laws either, which gives rise to lots of popular books such as the Tao of Physics etc. I have my own take on all that, but this is for another post. Anyway, what I am getting at in all this is that modern science is not the only body of knowledge that deserves a place at the table, as you put it is some recent post. Actually, I am not saying that anything pre-scientific deserves a place at the table either, only that if modern science is the only sitter at the table, then there is a large area of intense interest to human beings, which I am calling consciousness, that can never be investigated in a way that will yield useful results. That is why I bridle when the word 'prescientific' is used hereabouts with a sneer, as if nothing else is valid. In fact something else must be valid, otherwise consciousness remains a closed book and humanity is in deep shit. But what it is, exactly, that does take a seat at the table along with modern science ? That is the question, as they say. As for your other points: ..or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? Not exactly facetious, but tongue-in-cheek. A light-hearted comment, indicating that while I should have learnt from my years with M not to get taken in again, there are no guarantees. My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference? I am not sure what you are meaning here. Self-delusion is certainly in the mix of all religions, as far as I can see, and it is of course hard to tell the difference. But I cannot see exactly why your questions relate to what you quoted from my previous post. -- Mike

Subject: At the risk of pissing off OTS .... From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:50:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: -- What is 'truth' ? Difficult if not impossible to answer; therefore take the pragmatic approach, and ask instead the question: What body of knowledge is useful ? Why do people have such a hard time with this word? God, you learned it when you were a baby and it's meaning hasn't changed: truth is that which actually is. End of story. -- There is no question that what has emerged out of the scientific method and modern science is useful to humanity. Extreme understatement. -- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? Depends what you mean by 'area'. If you're talking about learning how we can all live forever or sprout wings, no modern science hasn't cracked those mysteries. Mind you, maybe they're just uncrackable. It's a very loaded question, Mike, as it assumes that the 'areas' in question are reasonable. -- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. God, that's completely wrong. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness. There are many, many miles to go discovering the secrets of consciousness but only science will get us there. -- What is consciousness ? I think you have to leave it as a primitive term (in the logical sense) as one that you cannot define, but everyone has some common understanding of what you mean. Mirriam-Webster again: Main Entry: con·scious·ness Pronunciation: -n&s Function: noun Date: 1632 1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause 2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND 3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual 4 : the normal state of conscious life 5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes What's so hard about that? Do we understand all the mechanisms or parameters of consciousness? No, hardly. But we know what the word means, for one thing, and we're learning more about it all the time, for another. -- Areas in which there is no, or little, consciousness include objects in the physical world - and the sciences which attempt to investigate these, such as physics and chemistry are spectacularly successful. Okayyyyyy....... (?) -- Areas in which there is a spectrum of consciousness, ranging from zero consciousness to full consciousness, include the human body, and sciences which deal with this have mixed success. When modern medicine attempts to fix things in the human body that are purely physical, such as broken bones or physical injury, then again medicine is spectacularly successful. When it attempts to fix diseases that arise from a clearly indentifiable foreign agent invading the body, then again we have success. Okayyyyyyyyyyyyy (?) [Part 2] -- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. Give me a break, Mike. We have learned so, so much about all these things over the last hundred years, say, it's not funny. Just be patient, will you? What's that? You have a mortal body with a loud and scary biological clock and you can't afford to wait patiently? Oh well, join the club. Still, we're progressing and yes, this is the only way. -- Other sciences that deal with consciousness-related stuff are psychology and sociology. When science tries to answer questions that remove consciousness, such as the behavorial psychologies where individuals are treated as consciousless robots, then again some success. But when psychology tries to treat problems that arise from consciousness itself, then no success - or at best cover up the symptoms with drugs, particularly for the depressive and schizoid. The long term, Mike. Think: LONG TERM. We have learned an incredible amount about all these things in the recent past and our knowledge just keeps getting better and better. Why? Science. Nothing else deserves credit. -- So if modern science, the child of the scientifc method, has less and less success being useful the more it approaches consciousness, is there another approach that might fill the gap ? The gap that worries me most is that one you keep putting before your question marks. Now what's THAT all about? :) Mike, it's entirely wrong to say that science is becoming 'less and less' successful understanding consciousness. The opposite is true. Mind you, there are, as I understand it, all sorts of theories of consciousnes competing in the scientific arena right now. Give them time. If past performances is any predictor of future success, science will continue to deliver and nothing will stop it. As for some other approach, forget it. That's just dreaming. I think yes, the fact that consciousness can be self-reflective, that an individual's consciousness can be conscious of itself. In that self-relectivity I believe that there exists another mode of knowing, or let's say discovering things which are useful, that does not contradict the scientific method, but complements it. Oh yeah? Give me an example. I don't think you'll be able to point to a single thing we've actually learned about consciousness through 'self-reflectivity' (introspection?) that adds to our real knowledge about the stuff. -- Not only do I believe this is so, but I can also explain why this is so. The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. I'm listening ..... -- As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. What kind of .... sorry, Mike, I'm trying to understand you but, well, what kind of gobbledygook is THAT? -- It is interesting to note that some people hold that the 'particles' of quantum mechanics do not obey these laws either, which gives rise to lots of popular books such as the Tao of Physics etc. I have my own take on all that, but this is for another post. Oh my god, not The Tao of Physics! Here's one Amazon review that speaks my mind on the subject: Capra's book was the pioneering volume in a long line of metaphysical babble, attempting to find solid links between the apparant otherworldliness of quantum physics and the similarly odd world of metaphysics. It's a poorly motivated parallel, and serves only to trivialize physics, not to elucidate either area. The book is a favorite of those who have trouble seeing that non-conformance with the macroscopic world doesn't automatically push the objective study of quantum physics into the subjective world of metaphysics Anyway, what I am getting at in all this is that modern science is not the only body of knowledge that deserves a place at the table, as you put it is some recent post. Actually, I am not saying that anything pre-scientific deserves a place at the table either, only that if modern science is the only sitter at the table, then there is a large area of intense interest to human beings, which I am calling consciousness, that can never be investigated in a way that will yield useful results. Tell that to all the scientists who are indeed investigating consciousness in ways that DO yield useful results. There's a lot going on in that respect, Mike. It's a vital field of research and inquiry and I, for one (again, simply going by past performance) expect serious breakthroughs, at least within the next, oh, thousand years, let's say. :) That is why I bridle when the word 'prescientific' is used hereabouts with a sneer, as if nothing else is valid. In fact something else must be valid, otherwise consciousness remains a closed book and humanity is in deep shit. But what it is, exactly, that does take a seat at the table along with modern science ? That is the question, as they say. Your premise is wrong. As for your other points: ..or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? [Jim] Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? Not exactly facetious, but tongue-in-cheek. A light-hearted comment, indicating that while I should have learnt from my years with M not to get taken in again, there are no guarantees. I'm with you there. My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. [Jim]How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference? I am not sure what you are meaning here. Self-delusion is certainly in the mix of all religions, as far as I can see, and it is of course hard to tell the difference. But I cannot see exactly why your questions relate to what you quoted from my previous post. Just that you were saying religion triggers self-discovery and I'm saying that, no, if anything I'd say it triggers self-deception.

Subject: For OTS's insomnia From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:52:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, you learned it when you were a baby and it's meaning hasn't changed: truth is that which actually is. End of story. This is just the definition of 'truth': that which actually is. What I am saying is that 'what actually is' is a thorny issue in any serious philosophical discussion; it led to sterile philosophy for much of the 19th century until the American Pragmatists suggested that you look at what is useful, as opposed to what is 'true'. Read any potted version of philosophy in the late 18th and 19th centuries to see how the concept of Truth hung everyone up. [Mike]-- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? Depends what you mean by 'area'. If you're talking about learning how we can all live forever or sprout wings, no modern science hasn't cracked those mysteries. Mind you, maybe they're just uncrackable. It's a very loaded question, Mike, as it assumes that the 'areas' in question are reasonable. You are right, I am assuming that the areas in question are reasonable. I am not talking about living forever or sprouting wings. [Mike]-- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. God, that's completely wrong. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness. There are many, many miles to go discovering the secrets of consciousness but only science will get us there. Well, this is the heart of our disagreement. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness...only science will get us there is the proposition that I am disputing. I am not talking about explaining consciousness in terms of neurons firing, or anything, but in areas of human interest where human consciousness is a large factor - and I gave several examples in my post. By the way, you call on 'God' alot for an atheist ! Only kidding - I am an atheist as well - perhaps we agree on something. I mean it in the sense that there is no 'higher power' out there - there is only unexplored consciousness in the human mind - but I digress. [Mike]-- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. Give me a break, Mike. We have learned so, so much about all these things over the last hundred years, say, it's not funny. Just be patient, will you? What's that? You have a mortal body with a loud and scary biological clock and you can't afford to wait patiently? Oh well, join the club. Still, we're progressing and yes, this is the only way.....The long term, Mike. Think: LONG TERM. We have learned an incredible amount about all these things in the recent past and our knowledge just keeps getting better and better. Why? Science. Nothing else deserves credit. What I am saying is this: The areas in which modern science have made least progress is in the areas where consciousness is a large factor. If I understand you right, you are saying this is just a matter of time, and that science will at some point catch up, and in any case it is the only thing which will. I am saying that it is no accident that this is the case, it is a fundamental property of the scientific method and its primary tool - logic - that it will fail to grasp the intricacies of consciousness, in principle. So let's move on to 'logic' - take my statement that you said was gobbledygook. [Mike] The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. [Still Mike] As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. OK, the last bit might be gobbledygook (about defining consciousness as blah blah), BUT the rest of it is not. I am saying that logic can only deal with distinct things - the definition of object A being distinct from object B is the same as the 3 laws of logic I quoted above. Logic as a tool for understanding things can only do so if the 'things' are distinct one from the other. In the subtleties of consciousness, distinction need not exist, like it has to in the world of physical objects, and so logic (in the Aristotelian sense) may not be the best tool for investigating consciousness. Oh my god, not The Tao of Physics! I agree with you - I was referring to it in a derogatory sense. I knew Fritjof Capra in the early 70's when he was writing his book. We had several discussions about this kind of stuff, but he severed the relationship when I started spouting Maharajism at him - sensible fellow ! He told me he did not want to get involved with anyone who was in a cult (this was in around 72 I think). ...you were saying religion triggers self-discovery and I'm saying that, no, if anything I'd say it triggers self-deception. I don't think I ever said religion triggers self-discovery, and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. For me, religion is pretty much the biggest disaster that hit the human race. Wherever you see a pile of bodies, the odds are that a religious belief system will be behind it. What I actually said was: [Mike] ...there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. I am sorry you don't like the gap between the end of my sentences and the question or exclamation mark ! -- Mike

Subject: I don't know about that From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:32:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, You say that the areas in which science has made the least progress are those concerning consciousness but, first, I don't know if that's true and, second, even if it is, so what? I think it goes without saying that this is an inherently difficult field of study so progress must be measured in that context. But even if it's incredibly slow going, hell, even if it ain't going anywhere right now, I still don't see how anything other than science could ever teach us anything meaningful about consciousness. In saying that, I specifically reject the notion of some kind of 'enlightenment' that explains all from the inside out. No 'grand mal' enlightenment, no 'petit mal' either. Whatever those experiences are, they're not ways that we, as a species, really learn about the nature of consciousness as much as they're ways we can just experience some of its properties. Those experiences are so tainted with our imaginations, though, they're impossible to study from the inside out. If we ever did learn how to do it, we'd be crossing into the scientific arena.

Subject: Re: OK - here I go again From: OTS To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:54:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Can't wait for the long version.

Subject: This is sad OTS From: Nottm Bunny To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:22:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS, After the years that many of us have spent in a climate that stifled the exercise of the mind, I find it sad that you should feel compelled to display your intolerance or incapacity for intellectual debate here. There are some fine minds at work on this forum and I for one have appreciated the level of some of the recent debates. I have heard it said that Dr Finch has a ‘brain the size of a planet’. What a waste to the world then, the cult years were when concepts were ridiculed and unquestioning banality was feted. The insidious (and potentially enduring) nature of all of that conditioning should not be underestimated. Think about it. Bunny

Subject: Well actually Bunny... From: Dermot To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 06:36:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS is only exercising his right to free speech on the forum:) I think it's cool that some people find the whole debate Mike usually instigates, bone dead boring. It's good to know it's vital for some yet means zilch to others!! You, on the other hand, appreciate that sort of debate so it's good to hear your voice too.vive la difference! As for me, I like to chip in when I think I've got something to say.....and I like to read to understand others POV...but sometimes I like spoofing around. No real harm done either way. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: Well actually Bunny and Jim... From: OTS To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:08:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could not agree more with my tea drinking buddy, Dermot. Bunny, I hope he's answered your seeming upset with me. And I hope you didn't take it as just another DERMabraison. Or another OTS borish attack. Ouch! Them stings. I've come to a new understanding of religions from attempting to read Mike's recent explanations [but I couldn't make out the words from laughing so hard]. Here' my take on religions: God realization, OR WHATEVER, is a personal thing. It's the communication -- woman to woman; man to man -- where the screw up seems to occur. Anyway. I tell ya, I have over the past nine months really enjoyed Mike Finch's take on K & M . . but I could leave a good bit of the rest. But that's okay, we take and leave and read what we want here. MIKE: NO OFFENSE. AND THANKS FOR ALLOWING ME TO KID. However, I agree with Dermot, different strokes for different folks. My biting humor resonates pain with some, laughter with others. Whaddya gonna do? [Note to my brother, Jim, the lawyer above the border: Thanks for caring about upsetting me with your quad-font responses. But you step on egg shells without cause. No worries. If ya ask me, there're just aren't enough inkjet cartridges in all of Canada to publish just your first few thoughts you have each morning comin out of that outhouse of yours, runnin' back into that Kazinsky-model shack you call home, but it's your right to share each and every one of those thoughts and more as well as all of their myriad derivites day after day if you so choose, JimBob. And, of course, it's Bunny's and my rights to either read or not all or a portion. Jim, it's your world. I'm just checkin-in once in a while. But, it's the mix that counts.]

Subject: You can give it, Can you take it? From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:04:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Biting humour' is fine me with, OTS. Just want to remind you that's a two-way street.

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!